July 16, 2025 • 28 mins
Ever wondered about the power of your brand? Join Ed Drozda and Richard Rimer of the Initiating Protection Law Group as they dive into the world of brand protection for small businesses. Don’t let 'I didn't know' hold you back from success. Tune in for insights! #BrandProtection #SmallBusiness
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Episode Transcript
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Ed Drozda (00:10):
Welcome to The Water Trough where we can't make you
drink, but we will make youthink.
My name is Ed Drozda, The SmallBusiness Doctor, and I'm really
excited you chose to join mehere as we discuss topics that
are important for small businessfolks just like you.
If you're looking for ideas,inspiration, and possibility,
you've come to the right place.
Join us as we take steps to helpyou create the healthy business
that you've all.
Always wanted.
(00:43):
Welcome back to the WaterTrough.
This is Ed Drozda, The SmallBusiness Doctor, and once again
I'm joined by my guest RichardRimer.
Richard is a brand protectionlawyer, and he's also the
founder of the InitiatingProtection Law Group, a boutique
law firm focused on helpingsmall businesses safeguard their
most valuable assets, theirbrands.
(01:05):
For nearly 20 years, Richardworked at large law firms
representing major corporationsin protecting their intellectual
property.
Time and time again heencountered a troubling pattern.
On the other side of thesedisputes were often small
businesses, unrepresented, andunaware their crossing legal
lines.
The most common phrase he heardfrom these companies, and I'm
(01:27):
sure many of us have said this,was"but I didn't know"I.
Richard, welcome.
Richard Rimer (01:34):
Hi Ed, thanks for having me today.
Ed Drozda (01:36):
Hey, it's nice to have you back.
Let's start out with thatquestion, but I didn't know.
Man, how many of us can relateto that?
I didn't have a clue it wasimportant what I was doing.
Wow.
Richard Rimer (01:45):
Francis Bacon said it best, knowledge is
power.
So many people do not haveknowledge, and sometimes in the
law it's okay to not haveknowledge, but this is one time
where your lack of knowledgedoes not matter at all.
Ed Drozda (01:58):
So we can't fall behind that shield and say, I
didn't know.
We can't use that as a defense.
Richard Rimer (02:04):
No, you cannot.
Now, there are some nuances asto how guilty are you or more
likely, how liable are you?
But, the fact that you areliable, the fact that you could
infringe someone's intellectualproperty without having any idea
that they existed is a realthing.
Ed Drozda (02:20):
Wow, and I think that this speaks to the size of the
organizations.
You had worked at that time,with larger corporations, and it
the small guys that wereencountering the difficulties.
Now, the large corporationsobviously had all the money,
time, and energy in the world togo after these little guys,
right?
Richard Rimer (02:40):
Absolutely.
And what I found were a fewpatterns that replicated
themselves over and over again.
As I started my journeyrepresenting large companies, I
really thought that the peoplesaying"but I didn't know" were
lying to me, that everyone knowsabout trademark law; everyone's
represented, and everyone has afair opportunity to be
represented.
But as I heard it over and overagain, I realized these people
(03:02):
aren't all lying, at least someof them are telling the truth.
And the people I was talking tofrom my large midtown law firm's
office were the soccer coaches,the PTA moms, the people that
ran the church bazaar, and othersuch individuals that helped our
communities go.
I was kind of on the wrong sideof the battle to the extent
there's a battle, and you know,my clients were doing nothing
(03:23):
wrong in going after thesesmaller businesses'cause these
smaller businesses were doingthe wrong thing.
But the real issue, the way thesystem was gummed up was that
small businesses were notadequately represented.
They weren't informed, theyweren't educated, and they
really needed to have someoneout there advocating for them.
So I decided four years ago tostart my own law firm focused on
(03:45):
small and mid-sized businessesto take away that"but I didn't
know" situation and turn it intoan asset.
You really can't be strategicunless you have knowledge and
information.
And I thought I would bring thatto the masses.
Ed Drozda (03:57):
I'm glad for one that you saw through what might be
perceived as apparent lying onthe part of many of these
people.
I agree with you, most certainlythey know, but I wonder if the
vast majority of them think, whyshould I matter?
I'm just a small little fry.
Richard Rimer (04:17):
Well If you're a small fry and think you'll
forever be a small fry, maybeyou can skirt under the radar
and be okay.
But as a small business ownermyself right now, I don't intend
to be small forever.
I intend to grow.
If you're company is nothingmore than a replacement for a
job that you hated, and youreally just hope to operate on
(04:38):
your own, maybe you can skirtunder the radar.
But from the perspective of thelarge companies and from my
large firm perspective, wedidn't see those small micro
businesses.
They were too small to see.
They never got on our radar.
What we saw were those companiesstarting to grow.
It was always some scalableevent that let us know, hey,
(05:01):
this company exists.
Not this company is now worthpursuing, but it's the first
time we ever saw them; when theydid something like go through
some marketing campaign or maybelaunch a new line of products.
So they sold gizmos before,they're now gonna sell widgets
as well.
They go into different states.
They hire a sales team.
They go to conventions.
(05:22):
These first forays into being abig company is what the really
big companies saw, and it wasthe first time they even
witnessed these companies andthought, is there a problem
here?
And often the thing that was aproblem was the brand that the
small company had forever beenusing, and was infringing.
(05:42):
From day one it was infringing,just no one saw it to judge it
or have any sort of a thoughtabout it.
So this small company is finallybecoming big.
The wind's in it's sails.
It's thinking that this is agrand time, and it is ready to
just hit the scene and gorunning.
And out of nowhere, a big kickin the pants, a cease and desist
(06:03):
letter, a lawsuit, a take downrequest, something like that
comes from a big company andyou're left scrambling.
So instead of having tractionand having momentum, you now
have to figure out a new way togo forward.
Ed Drozda (06:15):
I can see the distinction between the real
small fry who has no intentionof growing, and those who are
becoming visible because theirupward track is now out there in
the mainstream, people canactually see it happening.
So we're in the midst of somevery tumultuous times in this
country, and I'm curious ifthere's been a change in the
(06:35):
attitude towards, or the impactof intellectual property and its
protection.
What's going on out there?
Richard Rimer (06:42):
The few changes I've seen over my several
decades of experience have neverbeen political in nature.
I don't care if a guy with a Dor a guy with a R is the person
in charge of the White House orCongress or whatever.
I don't know if Biden and Trumphave one iota of difference
between them in how a trademarkshould be enforced or protected.
(07:03):
There is no political beef topick at here.
But what I have seen over timeis as the economy gets tighter,
people get more scared andscarce and they start being more
aggressive about theirintellectual property rights.
So as the economy goes down, youcan almost always expect
(07:24):
lawsuits and other types ofdisputes to go up.
We were starting to see that alittle bit at the end of the
first quarter especially, therewere some rumblings about the
economy maybe not being asstrong as it needed to be.
It's my perception that thatseems to be leveling out now,
maybe even going back up, andI'm seeing from a legal
perspective less action.
(07:44):
So there is no Republican orDemocratic way to run an
intellectual property practice.
The policies don't change fromone administration to the other,
they never have.
But I do see the economychanging that and you know, Ed,
going back to our comment just asecond ago about the small guys
shouldn't worry about it, theones who are starting to get
(08:05):
bigger should, don't plan forbeing small forever.
I mean, that's a plan forfailure.
If you truly are planning tofail, what are you doing?
Why are you even bothering?
So, I would argue that at theearliest stages of manageable,
as soon as you realize that yourcompany is more than you and a
(08:26):
computer, or you and a servicetruck, or you and whatever your
tool of trade is, start thinkingis this name that I'm using to
identify myself in themarketplace something that's
mine?
Cause you will start promotingit, whether it's on social
media, through a Chamber, orwhatever other means you have to
get your name out there, you'regonna start promoting it and
(08:48):
you'll see it catch on; you'llsee it start to be the thing.
I was talking to a friend theother day about my own brand and
how I view my company and mybrand to be almost like my
little brother.
It's a lot like me, but notexactly.
It has its own life at thispoint.
It's four years old, so it's notthe oldest thing in the world,
but it's so much like me, butnot exactly me.
(09:08):
As things have changed overtime, and I want that, I want
this thing to be its ownidentity, its own calling card
to the world so people know whenthey want quality intellectual
property legal services they canlook for Initiating Protection.
And I happen to be the one thatanswers the phone now, but five
years from now, it'll be someoneelse answering the phone and
I'll be out on a golf course orsomething.
(09:29):
But having the sort of businessdevelopment, education,
relationship building role thatis more appropriate for someone
at that level.
These things change over timeand your brand and you are two
different things, and as soon asyou start to see that divergence
between who you are and who yourbrand is, who your company is,
you really gotta think aboutprotecting that brand because it
(09:51):
stands for something unique.
Ed Drozda (09:53):
That is a very good point, that the brand is unique,
that the brand has to convey themessage that you want it to
convey, and ideally, well ofcourse the goal is to convey
that message clearly to thepeople you want to see it, to
hear it, to know it.
Right?
Richard Rimer (10:11):
Right.
Very good.
Yeah.
I use the word brand quite abit.
My legal colleagues will use theword trademark.
And there is a slight differencebetween a brand and a trademark.
And to use the marketing termbrand, I'm really taking a lot
of license by doing that.
That's for marketers, which isnot my calling card, my forte.
(10:31):
My forte is the legal side and Ishould be saying trademark, but
most people listening to thiswould probably be a little
uncomfortable with me sayingtrademarks so frequently so I
say brand, but I like to thinkof the brand as being the
feeling that one receives whenthey see a certain company name,
a certain logo, or a certaintagline.
How do they feel?
(10:52):
And a trademark by contrast isthe unique symbol that the
consumer can see in themarketplace, and quickly know
who is providing that good orservice.
So joke that marketers have souland lawyers do not.
That's the big difference rightthere.
So when I'm talking about yourbrand is taking on meaning most
(11:13):
people do think of the marketingperspective.
More people are familiar withhow you build a brand from a
marketing perspective, andthere's nothing wrong with that.
That's absolutely necessary.
I just wanna make sure that youdon't build this thing that you
don't own.
Almost like building a house onproperty you don't own.
That would be foolish.
(11:34):
Make sure you own the propertybefore you build the house on
top of it.
Ed Drozda (11:38):
The term brand is very personal because it
emanates from me.
The brand is something thatcomes from within.
It is something that I want youto know about me, my product, my
service, whatever it might be.
It's personal.
Trademark sounds like atechnical requirement if you're
comparing the two words.
In other words, to protect mybrand, back to your personal
(12:01):
title, brand protection lawyer,you are involved in the legal
aspects of protecting that whichis personal.
It just so happens the trademarkis the way to facilitate that in
the legal space, right?
But the brand is really personaland that is what the business
(12:24):
owner, I believe, is trying toconvey.
Richard Rimer (12:28):
Absolutely.
A brand in my mind is the mosteffective sign or symbol in all
of commerce.
From a long, long time ago, thetrademark laws that we have
today emanate from A, cattlethat were branded before Christ
was on the planet, and then B,from the medieval times during
(12:49):
the Renaissance, all thedifferent guilds assigned
different markings that peoplecould put on their, we'll say
silverware to use one.
So if you and I Ed are both inthe silver smithing world, you
might have a ED symbol, and I'dhave an RR symbol, and yours
would come to symbolize acertain level of quality.
(13:10):
Maybe it's the silver you use,maybe it's just your
marksmanship.
Maybe it was how pretty you madethings, but whatever it was,
yours and mine would bedifferent and people would start
to assign a certain amount ofvalue to it.
And if yours became morevaluable and I started putting
an ED on mine to try to get someof those dollars I would be
taking rights from you.
(13:31):
The same thing exists today inthe world of two competitors,
whether it's soft drinks, fastfood, consulting firms, or
whatever it might be, they eachstand on their own and they each
have a symbol that marks it, andwhen you see these symbols out
in the marketplace youimmediately have a feeling.
That feeling is driven bymarketing.
That feeling is driven by peopletelling you the story over time.
(13:51):
This is how you should feelabout our company, about the
experiences you have as youactually interact with the
company.
All these things become a singlefeeling that you immediately get
when you see that, and that's apretty powerful thing in
commerce to see a symbol andimmediately have a reaction.
That's huge.
That's what everyone aspires to.
(14:12):
Even bad ones by the way.
I mean, sometimes you need todrive some clients from you.
It serves everyone very well.
Then I come behind and make surethat this symbol and all the
feelings that invokes belong toyou and no one else.
That you can actually utilize itand feel confident that you have
the rights in that feeling.
Ed Drozda (14:30):
To feel confident that you can convey yourself in
this way, not knowing thatsomebody else may be doing the
same thing, well that's one ofthe reasons you're here, not to
say that people are aware ofthese things.
I came up with this great idea.
It feels right for me.
I put it out there, but to findout that somebody else is using
(14:50):
the same symbol, not the samebrand, because they can't be me,
but the same symbol, it woulddecimate my plan.
Richard Rimer (15:01):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I like your difference ofsymbol versus brand right there.
The brand is a feeling, thesymbol is the thing you see to
have that feeling.
Ed Drozda (15:10):
Right, the symbol evokes something.
Hopefully, ideally, ideally, I,I, I ideally evokes the notion,
oh, this is Richard Reimer'sproduct here.
Right.
This is Ed Drozda's producthere.
Not that the symbol itself ispretty, but it is symbolic of
(15:32):
something and that something isthe brand.
Yes?
Richard Rimer (15:37):
Yes.
And it takes a lot of time andmoney on the marketing side to
really make that feeling drivehome into a relevant number of
people, to all your consumersthat you want to see you to have
the right feeling.
I have four daughters.
I'm forever in malls with mydaughters, and they are reacting
to symbols that I have noresponse to whatsoever because
(15:58):
those companies have notmarketed to me, they've marketed
to my daughters.
But before those companiesmarket to anybody, they really
need to make sure they own thatsymbol so that the feeling
that's attached to that symbolalso belongs to them and not to
someone else.
Ed Drozda (16:15):
Needless to say, prior to the time that we create
a symbol, we develop a brand, weput a lot of thought into what
we are doing.
Why we are doing it, our story,if you will.
And we put a lot of thought intohow we're going to image and
present this to the world.
So by the time we get to puttinga symbol out there, by the time
(16:38):
we are engaged in the process ofmarketing a brand, we've
invested a lot of time, money,and energy.
The idea that we would do sowithout assuring ourselves that
the image that we put out thereis not ours to use, it does seem
kind of, well, hard to believe.
(16:59):
For all the effort that would beput in to get to that space.
It seems hard to believe that wewouldn't be more attentive to
that.
And yet Richard, are we?
Richard Rimer (17:09):
No, it happens all the time.
I personally feel, I'm arealist, but my personal
feelings are that I should be aday one experience for a
company.
That before a company reallystarts investing in developing
its brand they should talk to meor someone like me to make sure
that brand is something they canown.
(17:29):
The realist in me understandsthat especially companies on a
shoe string budget, and thatincludes nearly every small and
mid-sized company starting outdon't have budgets for
intellectual property attorneysand similar types of people.
I might be comparable in priceto a good tax accountant or
something like that, so thepricing is real, but not
significant, not huge.
(17:51):
But you really often don't getto the point where you can
afford a good tax accountantuntil you've been 3, 4, 5 years
into the business and you're nowstarting to grow.
I find that from a realistperspective, I should be seen by
companies right before they gothrough that scalable event,
right before they launch thatbig marketing campaign, right
(18:13):
before they hire that huge salesteam, right before they launch
their second product into themarketplace.
All of these items are gonna putthem irrevocably into the public
eye.
And can their brand stand up tothat scrutiny now that people
are really gonna look at thebrand and be judgmental about
(18:33):
whether or not there's anyinfringement or not.
What do you think about yourbrand?
What do you know about yourbrand and you're generally
flying blind?
There are four steps to brandprotection and step one is
essentially turning the lightson in a dark room.
You Ed have been around theworld long enough to know how to
get around a room.
I'm not concerned that you wouldbump into furniture or not know
(18:56):
how to go into an office andpick up a pencil cup without
much effort at all.
However, make it an unfamiliardark room.
You don't know how to get aroundthat room.
You don't know where thefurniture is.
You don't know where the pencilcup is.
You don't know there's a cord onthe floor you might trip over or
whatever.
Turn the lights and it's easy.
In the world of brand protectionsearching is that item that is
(19:19):
like turning on the lights in adark room.
To be able to look into themarketplace and see what similar
brands are being used and whatothers are doing, so you can
understand what risk you havewith your brand, what
opportunities you have with yourbrand.
Searching is by far the mostimportant thing.
It's information gathering, andat that point you can have
(19:41):
strategy.
I mentioned at the beginningthat Francis Bacon said,
knowledge is power.
It's because you can now actfrom a position of knowing, and
you can't act from a position ofknowing if you don't know.
Let's do a search.
The second step is toauthenticate your rights; to get
a registration through thefederal system or maybe a
(20:02):
foreign country if that's what'simportant to you.
Or possibly even just a statesregistration.
All the 50 states in the US havetheir own registration regimes.
Let's make sure that the worldknows this right is yours and
you're giving notice to them.
Much like when you buy realproperty, you record your deed
with the courthouse.
That lets the whole world knowthat that piece of ground is
(20:23):
yours.
Right.
Same thing with a registrationfor a brand or a trademark.
And then further steps, which Iwon't dive into too much, are
policing and enforcing.
Let's make sure no one elsecoming behind you is using a
similar brand that's gonna causeconfusion with your consumers,
with the marketplace, thepublic.
And then if they are, let's dosomething about it.
(20:45):
Enforcement doesn't meanlawsuits.
It could, but it's not the onlything it means.
It could be a simple businessmanto businessman conversation.
It could be a take down requestin social media.
It could be a cease and desistletter.
It could be all the above, noneof the above.
There's some combination andit's gonna differ depending on
the situation, but to let peopleknow this is mine and I intend
(21:05):
to keep it unique.
Ed Drozda (21:07):
Is there an ongoing process of monitoring to see if
there has been some kind ofviolation once a legal
transaction has taken place andyou do in fact own this brand
identity?
Is there a process ofmonitoring?
How does that work?
Richard Rimer (21:22):
Yeah, that's a great question.
We were talking beforehand and Iknow that you now live in the
southeast and you've seen allthose cars going around with the
trademark police on the side,right?
Yes.
You haven't'cause they don'texist.
Enforcing or policing oftrademark rights is not the
government's responsibility, itis the business's
(21:43):
responsibility.
Now, the government will, if youhave registered your
intellectual property rights,they will compare for future
filings against yours and mighttell future applicants that your
brand is too similar to this onethat's been registered and keep
them from getting registration.
(22:04):
But again, that's the governmentenforcing it.
That's only for registrations,not for use.
It is up to you, the businessowner, to do something to
actually make sure no one iscausing confusion.
Now, in a very informal sense,it could be just keeping your
eyes open.
Imagine a scenario in whichyou're in your shop one day and
that your favorite client comesin and says hey Ed, I went to
(22:25):
Vegas last month and I saw yourbooth at the big convention.
I'm sorry I couldn't make it by.
It looked like you had a bigcrowd.
You're thinking, I didn't go toVegas last month for a
convention, and here my bestclient is confused.
Someone else was out there thatmy best client thought was me.
What's going on?
I need to see what's causingthis confusion.
(22:46):
Or maybe you see a billboard asyou're driving into work one day
that looks like your brand andyou're thinking, that's not my
billboard.
I don't have billboards.
What is this?
So these informal things happen,but you can also set up systems
of policing through variousonline resources.
We talked a little bit about AI.
AI is gonna go a long way tohelping people do that sort of
(23:10):
policing, to sort of go out intothe marketplace.
There's lots of things you needto look at.
You obviously need to look atjust what's happening online,
Google searches, if you will,but just what's happening
online, what's happening invarious social media and
e-commerce platforms?
What sort of
filings are being made in thetrademark offices
around the world?
(23:31):
Both the filings being made, theregistrations being issued, the
publications being put outthere, in all 190 plus trademark
systems around the world, andthen'cause that's not enough, we
also need to look atapplications for new domain
names.
You know, who is applying foryour domain name dot QRS, the
(23:51):
next one that's gonna come out.
There are so many top leveldomains like dot com that are
out there that no one companyowns their name in all of them.
Even the Coca-Cola sizecompanies don't do that anymore.
So, seeing someone look forinitiating Protection dot QRS
should be a sign to me that Ineed to at least look at that
(24:12):
and see what's going on there.
Ed Drozda (24:15):
Wow.
It's just so expansive, isn'tit?
It's very clear that it's notreally sufficient for the
layperson to try to manage allthis themselves, especially when
so much is at risk.
Our brand is our identity, andthat which we use to put it in
front of the audience, in frontof the world is absolutely
critical.
(24:35):
So, we are approaching the endof our time here.
Funny how time goes quickly whenyou're having fun.
What would you like to leave uswith?
Is there anything particularlycritical, important that you'd
like to leave us with?
Richard Rimer (24:50):
You know, we talked about newer things, but
I'll leave you with somethingthat's old because it happens
all the time.
Sure.
When you're choosing a brand,and I know I'm talking to a lot
of younger companies that aregonna be launching new products
or maybe new companies soon, donot choose a brand that
describes exactly what you do.
There is no ability or verylimited ability to protect that
(25:13):
from a legal perspective.
You see people doing that allthe time, and their thought is,
well, that will make it easierfor my consumers to find me and
know what I'm doing.
For example, my company's nameis Initiating Protection Law
Group.
The law group does that portion.
Initiating protection issomething that's unique and
different.
No one else, another law firmthat I'm aware of is using that.
(25:35):
That is my uniqueness.
So pick something unique.
And when I say descriptive,obviously the words law group
are descriptive.
They're fine to be in there,just not only those, but also
things are descriptive thatpeople don't think of as last
names.
If I had chosen Rimer Law Group,there's really nothing
distinctive about that, and it'svery difficult to protect.
(25:56):
And then, place names.
I'm in the state of Georgia.
If I had chosen Georgia LawGroup, that would be very
difficult to protect.
So put some thought into thisand really what I'm saying is
plan as though you're going tobe a smashing success.
Don't put yourself in a positionso that five, 10 years down the
road, you're going to have torebrand to give yourself the
(26:19):
legal recourse that you'll wantwhen you are a smashing success.
It's very easy to make some veryminor changes at the beginning
and give yourself somesignificant advantages down the
road.
Ed Drozda (26:31):
Because to go back and do it down the road would be
incredibly cumbersome, if notpractically impossible.
Richard Rimer (26:38):
And mostly from a marketing perspective the
business cost of doing that iswhat's so challenging.
Ed Drozda (26:44):
Right.
I don't know who you areanymore.
Yeah, I could see that beingdisastrous.
Well, Richard, I wanna thank youso much for being here with me
today.
I always find your conversationand your online videos, by the
way, very informative, and Ithank you for that.
Once again, my guest today isRichard Rimer, a brand
protection lawyer and thefounder of the Initiating
(27:04):
Protection Law Group.
I want to thank you and remindyou all that your brand is your
brand.
Maintaining that asset, beingsure to protect it from others,
that is to keep it in your handsis extremely important, so don't
lose sight of that.
Richard, thank you again, Sir.
Richard Rimer (27:25):
Thank you, Ed, have a great day.
Thanks for having me.
Ed Drozda (27:27):
You as well.
Folks, this is Ed Drozda, TheSmall Business Doctor.
Here at The Water Trough, asalways, I wanna wish you a
healthy business, and I wannawish you a safe and well
identified brand.
Welcome to The Water Trough where we can't make you
drink, but we will make youthink.
My name is Ed Drozda, The SmallBusiness Doctor, and I'm really
excited you chose to join mehere as we discuss topics that
are important for small businessfolks just like you.
If you're looking for ideas,inspiration, and possibility,
you've come to the right place.
Join us as we take steps to helpyou create the healthy business
that you've all.
Always wanted.
(00:43):
Welcome back to the WaterTrough.
This is Ed Drozda, The SmallBusiness Doctor, and once again
I'm joined by my guest RichardRimer.
Richard is a brand protectionlawyer, and he's also the
founder of the InitiatingProtection Law Group, a boutique
law firm focused on helpingsmall businesses safeguard their
most valuable assets, theirbrands.
(01:05):
For nearly 20 years, Richardworked at large law firms
representing major corporationsin protecting their intellectual
property.
Time and time again heencountered a troubling pattern.
On the other side of thesedisputes were often small
businesses, unrepresented, andunaware their crossing legal
lines.
The most common phrase he heardfrom these companies, and I'm
(01:27):
sure many of us have said this,was"but I didn't know"I.
Richard, welcome.
Richard Rimer (01:34):
Hi Ed, thanks for having me today.
Ed Drozda (01:36):
Hey, it's nice to have you back.
Let's start out with thatquestion, but I didn't know.
Man, how many of us can relateto that?
I didn't have a clue it wasimportant what I was doing.
Wow.
Richard Rimer (01:45):
Francis Bacon said it best, knowledge is
power.
So many people do not haveknowledge, and sometimes in the
law it's okay to not haveknowledge, but this is one time
where your lack of knowledgedoes not matter at all.
Ed Drozda (01:58):
So we can't fall behind that shield and say, I
didn't know.
We can't use that as a defense.
Richard Rimer (02:04):
No, you cannot.
Now, there are some nuances asto how guilty are you or more
likely, how liable are you?
But, the fact that you areliable, the fact that you could
infringe someone's intellectualproperty without having any idea
that they existed is a realthing.
Ed Drozda (02:20):
Wow, and I think that this speaks to the size of the
organizations.
You had worked at that time,with larger corporations, and it
the small guys that wereencountering the difficulties.
Now, the large corporationsobviously had all the money,
time, and energy in the world togo after these little guys,
right?
Richard Rimer (02:40):
Absolutely.
And what I found were a fewpatterns that replicated
themselves over and over again.
As I started my journeyrepresenting large companies, I
really thought that the peoplesaying"but I didn't know" were
lying to me, that everyone knowsabout trademark law; everyone's
represented, and everyone has afair opportunity to be
represented.
But as I heard it over and overagain, I realized these people
(03:02):
aren't all lying, at least someof them are telling the truth.
And the people I was talking tofrom my large midtown law firm's
office were the soccer coaches,the PTA moms, the people that
ran the church bazaar, and othersuch individuals that helped our
communities go.
I was kind of on the wrong sideof the battle to the extent
there's a battle, and you know,my clients were doing nothing
(03:23):
wrong in going after thesesmaller businesses'cause these
smaller businesses were doingthe wrong thing.
But the real issue, the way thesystem was gummed up was that
small businesses were notadequately represented.
They weren't informed, theyweren't educated, and they
really needed to have someoneout there advocating for them.
So I decided four years ago tostart my own law firm focused on
(03:45):
small and mid-sized businessesto take away that"but I didn't
know" situation and turn it intoan asset.
You really can't be strategicunless you have knowledge and
information.
And I thought I would bring thatto the masses.
Ed Drozda (03:57):
I'm glad for one that you saw through what might be
perceived as apparent lying onthe part of many of these
people.
I agree with you, most certainlythey know, but I wonder if the
vast majority of them think, whyshould I matter?
I'm just a small little fry.
Richard Rimer (04:17):
Well If you're a small fry and think you'll
forever be a small fry, maybeyou can skirt under the radar
and be okay.
But as a small business ownermyself right now, I don't intend
to be small forever.
I intend to grow.
If you're company is nothingmore than a replacement for a
job that you hated, and youreally just hope to operate on
(04:38):
your own, maybe you can skirtunder the radar.
But from the perspective of thelarge companies and from my
large firm perspective, wedidn't see those small micro
businesses.
They were too small to see.
They never got on our radar.
What we saw were those companiesstarting to grow.
It was always some scalableevent that let us know, hey,
(05:01):
this company exists.
Not this company is now worthpursuing, but it's the first
time we ever saw them; when theydid something like go through
some marketing campaign or maybelaunch a new line of products.
So they sold gizmos before,they're now gonna sell widgets
as well.
They go into different states.
They hire a sales team.
They go to conventions.
(05:22):
These first forays into being abig company is what the really
big companies saw, and it wasthe first time they even
witnessed these companies andthought, is there a problem
here?
And often the thing that was aproblem was the brand that the
small company had forever beenusing, and was infringing.
(05:42):
From day one it was infringing,just no one saw it to judge it
or have any sort of a thoughtabout it.
So this small company is finallybecoming big.
The wind's in it's sails.
It's thinking that this is agrand time, and it is ready to
just hit the scene and gorunning.
And out of nowhere, a big kickin the pants, a cease and desist
(06:03):
letter, a lawsuit, a take downrequest, something like that
comes from a big company andyou're left scrambling.
So instead of having tractionand having momentum, you now
have to figure out a new way togo forward.
Ed Drozda (06:15):
I can see the distinction between the real
small fry who has no intentionof growing, and those who are
becoming visible because theirupward track is now out there in
the mainstream, people canactually see it happening.
So we're in the midst of somevery tumultuous times in this
country, and I'm curious ifthere's been a change in the
(06:35):
attitude towards, or the impactof intellectual property and its
protection.
What's going on out there?
Richard Rimer (06:42):
The few changes I've seen over my several
decades of experience have neverbeen political in nature.
I don't care if a guy with a Dor a guy with a R is the person
in charge of the White House orCongress or whatever.
I don't know if Biden and Trumphave one iota of difference
between them in how a trademarkshould be enforced or protected.
(07:03):
There is no political beef topick at here.
But what I have seen over timeis as the economy gets tighter,
people get more scared andscarce and they start being more
aggressive about theirintellectual property rights.
So as the economy goes down, youcan almost always expect
(07:24):
lawsuits and other types ofdisputes to go up.
We were starting to see that alittle bit at the end of the
first quarter especially, therewere some rumblings about the
economy maybe not being asstrong as it needed to be.
It's my perception that thatseems to be leveling out now,
maybe even going back up, andI'm seeing from a legal
perspective less action.
(07:44):
So there is no Republican orDemocratic way to run an
intellectual property practice.
The policies don't change fromone administration to the other,
they never have.
But I do see the economychanging that and you know, Ed,
going back to our comment just asecond ago about the small guys
shouldn't worry about it, theones who are starting to get
(08:05):
bigger should, don't plan forbeing small forever.
I mean, that's a plan forfailure.
If you truly are planning tofail, what are you doing?
Why are you even bothering?
So, I would argue that at theearliest stages of manageable,
as soon as you realize that yourcompany is more than you and a
(08:26):
computer, or you and a servicetruck, or you and whatever your
tool of trade is, start thinkingis this name that I'm using to
identify myself in themarketplace something that's
mine?
Cause you will start promotingit, whether it's on social
media, through a Chamber, orwhatever other means you have to
get your name out there, you'regonna start promoting it and
(08:48):
you'll see it catch on; you'llsee it start to be the thing.
I was talking to a friend theother day about my own brand and
how I view my company and mybrand to be almost like my
little brother.
It's a lot like me, but notexactly.
It has its own life at thispoint.
It's four years old, so it's notthe oldest thing in the world,
but it's so much like me, butnot exactly me.
(09:08):
As things have changed overtime, and I want that, I want
this thing to be its ownidentity, its own calling card
to the world so people know whenthey want quality intellectual
property legal services they canlook for Initiating Protection.
And I happen to be the one thatanswers the phone now, but five
years from now, it'll be someoneelse answering the phone and
I'll be out on a golf course orsomething.
(09:29):
But having the sort of businessdevelopment, education,
relationship building role thatis more appropriate for someone
at that level.
These things change over timeand your brand and you are two
different things, and as soon asyou start to see that divergence
between who you are and who yourbrand is, who your company is,
you really gotta think aboutprotecting that brand because it
(09:51):
stands for something unique.
Ed Drozda (09:53):
That is a very good point, that the brand is unique,
that the brand has to convey themessage that you want it to
convey, and ideally, well ofcourse the goal is to convey
that message clearly to thepeople you want to see it, to
hear it, to know it.
Right?
Richard Rimer (10:11):
Right.
Very good.
Yeah.
I use the word brand quite abit.
My legal colleagues will use theword trademark.
And there is a slight differencebetween a brand and a trademark.
And to use the marketing termbrand, I'm really taking a lot
of license by doing that.
That's for marketers, which isnot my calling card, my forte.
(10:31):
My forte is the legal side and Ishould be saying trademark, but
most people listening to thiswould probably be a little
uncomfortable with me sayingtrademarks so frequently so I
say brand, but I like to thinkof the brand as being the
feeling that one receives whenthey see a certain company name,
a certain logo, or a certaintagline.
How do they feel?
(10:52):
And a trademark by contrast isthe unique symbol that the
consumer can see in themarketplace, and quickly know
who is providing that good orservice.
So joke that marketers have souland lawyers do not.
That's the big difference rightthere.
So when I'm talking about yourbrand is taking on meaning most
(11:13):
people do think of the marketingperspective.
More people are familiar withhow you build a brand from a
marketing perspective, andthere's nothing wrong with that.
That's absolutely necessary.
I just wanna make sure that youdon't build this thing that you
don't own.
Almost like building a house onproperty you don't own.
That would be foolish.
(11:34):
Make sure you own the propertybefore you build the house on
top of it.
Ed Drozda (11:38):
The term brand is very personal because it
emanates from me.
The brand is something thatcomes from within.
It is something that I want youto know about me, my product, my
service, whatever it might be.
It's personal.
Trademark sounds like atechnical requirement if you're
comparing the two words.
In other words, to protect mybrand, back to your personal
(12:01):
title, brand protection lawyer,you are involved in the legal
aspects of protecting that whichis personal.
It just so happens the trademarkis the way to facilitate that in
the legal space, right?
But the brand is really personaland that is what the business
(12:24):
owner, I believe, is trying toconvey.
Richard Rimer (12:28):
Absolutely.
A brand in my mind is the mosteffective sign or symbol in all
of commerce.
From a long, long time ago, thetrademark laws that we have
today emanate from A, cattlethat were branded before Christ
was on the planet, and then B,from the medieval times during
(12:49):
the Renaissance, all thedifferent guilds assigned
different markings that peoplecould put on their, we'll say
silverware to use one.
So if you and I Ed are both inthe silver smithing world, you
might have a ED symbol, and I'dhave an RR symbol, and yours
would come to symbolize acertain level of quality.
(13:10):
Maybe it's the silver you use,maybe it's just your
marksmanship.
Maybe it was how pretty you madethings, but whatever it was,
yours and mine would bedifferent and people would start
to assign a certain amount ofvalue to it.
And if yours became morevaluable and I started putting
an ED on mine to try to get someof those dollars I would be
taking rights from you.
(13:31):
The same thing exists today inthe world of two competitors,
whether it's soft drinks, fastfood, consulting firms, or
whatever it might be, they eachstand on their own and they each
have a symbol that marks it, andwhen you see these symbols out
in the marketplace youimmediately have a feeling.
That feeling is driven bymarketing.
That feeling is driven by peopletelling you the story over time.
(13:51):
This is how you should feelabout our company, about the
experiences you have as youactually interact with the
company.
All these things become a singlefeeling that you immediately get
when you see that, and that's apretty powerful thing in
commerce to see a symbol andimmediately have a reaction.
That's huge.
That's what everyone aspires to.
(14:12):
Even bad ones by the way.
I mean, sometimes you need todrive some clients from you.
It serves everyone very well.
Then I come behind and make surethat this symbol and all the
feelings that invokes belong toyou and no one else.
That you can actually utilize itand feel confident that you have
the rights in that feeling.
Ed Drozda (14:30):
To feel confident that you can convey yourself in
this way, not knowing thatsomebody else may be doing the
same thing, well that's one ofthe reasons you're here, not to
say that people are aware ofthese things.
I came up with this great idea.
It feels right for me.
I put it out there, but to findout that somebody else is using
(14:50):
the same symbol, not the samebrand, because they can't be me,
but the same symbol, it woulddecimate my plan.
Richard Rimer (15:01):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I like your difference ofsymbol versus brand right there.
The brand is a feeling, thesymbol is the thing you see to
have that feeling.
Ed Drozda (15:10):
Right, the symbol evokes something.
Hopefully, ideally, ideally, I,I, I ideally evokes the notion,
oh, this is Richard Reimer'sproduct here.
Right.
This is Ed Drozda's producthere.
Not that the symbol itself ispretty, but it is symbolic of
(15:32):
something and that something isthe brand.
Yes?
Richard Rimer (15:37):
Yes.
And it takes a lot of time andmoney on the marketing side to
really make that feeling drivehome into a relevant number of
people, to all your consumersthat you want to see you to have
the right feeling.
I have four daughters.
I'm forever in malls with mydaughters, and they are reacting
to symbols that I have noresponse to whatsoever because
(15:58):
those companies have notmarketed to me, they've marketed
to my daughters.
But before those companiesmarket to anybody, they really
need to make sure they own thatsymbol so that the feeling
that's attached to that symbolalso belongs to them and not to
someone else.
Ed Drozda (16:15):
Needless to say, prior to the time that we create
a symbol, we develop a brand, weput a lot of thought into what
we are doing.
Why we are doing it, our story,if you will.
And we put a lot of thought intohow we're going to image and
present this to the world.
So by the time we get to puttinga symbol out there, by the time
(16:38):
we are engaged in the process ofmarketing a brand, we've
invested a lot of time, money,and energy.
The idea that we would do sowithout assuring ourselves that
the image that we put out thereis not ours to use, it does seem
kind of, well, hard to believe.
(16:59):
For all the effort that would beput in to get to that space.
It seems hard to believe that wewouldn't be more attentive to
that.
And yet Richard, are we?
Richard Rimer (17:09):
No, it happens all the time.
I personally feel, I'm arealist, but my personal
feelings are that I should be aday one experience for a
company.
That before a company reallystarts investing in developing
its brand they should talk to meor someone like me to make sure
that brand is something they canown.
(17:29):
The realist in me understandsthat especially companies on a
shoe string budget, and thatincludes nearly every small and
mid-sized company starting outdon't have budgets for
intellectual property attorneysand similar types of people.
I might be comparable in priceto a good tax accountant or
something like that, so thepricing is real, but not
significant, not huge.
(17:51):
But you really often don't getto the point where you can
afford a good tax accountantuntil you've been 3, 4, 5 years
into the business and you're nowstarting to grow.
I find that from a realistperspective, I should be seen by
companies right before they gothrough that scalable event,
right before they launch thatbig marketing campaign, right
(18:13):
before they hire that huge salesteam, right before they launch
their second product into themarketplace.
All of these items are gonna putthem irrevocably into the public
eye.
And can their brand stand up tothat scrutiny now that people
are really gonna look at thebrand and be judgmental about
(18:33):
whether or not there's anyinfringement or not.
What do you think about yourbrand?
What do you know about yourbrand and you're generally
flying blind?
There are four steps to brandprotection and step one is
essentially turning the lightson in a dark room.
You Ed have been around theworld long enough to know how to
get around a room.
I'm not concerned that you wouldbump into furniture or not know
(18:56):
how to go into an office andpick up a pencil cup without
much effort at all.
However, make it an unfamiliardark room.
You don't know how to get aroundthat room.
You don't know where thefurniture is.
You don't know where the pencilcup is.
You don't know there's a cord onthe floor you might trip over or
whatever.
Turn the lights and it's easy.
In the world of brand protectionsearching is that item that is
(19:19):
like turning on the lights in adark room.
To be able to look into themarketplace and see what similar
brands are being used and whatothers are doing, so you can
understand what risk you havewith your brand, what
opportunities you have with yourbrand.
Searching is by far the mostimportant thing.
It's information gathering, andat that point you can have
(19:41):
strategy.
I mentioned at the beginningthat Francis Bacon said,
knowledge is power.
It's because you can now actfrom a position of knowing, and
you can't act from a position ofknowing if you don't know.
Let's do a search.
The second step is toauthenticate your rights; to get
a registration through thefederal system or maybe a
(20:02):
foreign country if that's what'simportant to you.
Or possibly even just a statesregistration.
All the 50 states in the US havetheir own registration regimes.
Let's make sure that the worldknows this right is yours and
you're giving notice to them.
Much like when you buy realproperty, you record your deed
with the courthouse.
That lets the whole world knowthat that piece of ground is
(20:23):
yours.
Right.
Same thing with a registrationfor a brand or a trademark.
And then further steps, which Iwon't dive into too much, are
policing and enforcing.
Let's make sure no one elsecoming behind you is using a
similar brand that's gonna causeconfusion with your consumers,
with the marketplace, thepublic.
And then if they are, let's dosomething about it.
(20:45):
Enforcement doesn't meanlawsuits.
It could, but it's not the onlything it means.
It could be a simple businessmanto businessman conversation.
It could be a take down requestin social media.
It could be a cease and desistletter.
It could be all the above, noneof the above.
There's some combination andit's gonna differ depending on
the situation, but to let peopleknow this is mine and I intend
(21:05):
to keep it unique.
Ed Drozda (21:07):
Is there an ongoing process of monitoring to see if
there has been some kind ofviolation once a legal
transaction has taken place andyou do in fact own this brand
identity?
Is there a process ofmonitoring?
How does that work?
Richard Rimer (21:22):
Yeah, that's a great question.
We were talking beforehand and Iknow that you now live in the
southeast and you've seen allthose cars going around with the
trademark police on the side,right?
Yes.
You haven't'cause they don'texist.
Enforcing or policing oftrademark rights is not the
government's responsibility, itis the business's
(21:43):
responsibility.
Now, the government will, if youhave registered your
intellectual property rights,they will compare for future
filings against yours and mighttell future applicants that your
brand is too similar to this onethat's been registered and keep
them from getting registration.
(22:04):
But again, that's the governmentenforcing it.
That's only for registrations,not for use.
It is up to you, the businessowner, to do something to
actually make sure no one iscausing confusion.
Now, in a very informal sense,it could be just keeping your
eyes open.
Imagine a scenario in whichyou're in your shop one day and
that your favorite client comesin and says hey Ed, I went to
(22:25):
Vegas last month and I saw yourbooth at the big convention.
I'm sorry I couldn't make it by.
It looked like you had a bigcrowd.
You're thinking, I didn't go toVegas last month for a
convention, and here my bestclient is confused.
Someone else was out there thatmy best client thought was me.
What's going on?
I need to see what's causingthis confusion.
(22:46):
Or maybe you see a billboard asyou're driving into work one day
that looks like your brand andyou're thinking, that's not my
billboard.
I don't have billboards.
What is this?
So these informal things happen,but you can also set up systems
of policing through variousonline resources.
We talked a little bit about AI.
AI is gonna go a long way tohelping people do that sort of
(23:10):
policing, to sort of go out intothe marketplace.
There's lots of things you needto look at.
You obviously need to look atjust what's happening online,
Google searches, if you will,but just what's happening
online, what's happening invarious social media and
e-commerce platforms?
What sort of
filings are being made in thetrademark offices
around the world?
(23:31):
Both the filings being made, theregistrations being issued, the
publications being put outthere, in all 190 plus trademark
systems around the world, andthen'cause that's not enough, we
also need to look atapplications for new domain
names.
You know, who is applying foryour domain name dot QRS, the
(23:51):
next one that's gonna come out.
There are so many top leveldomains like dot com that are
out there that no one companyowns their name in all of them.
Even the Coca-Cola sizecompanies don't do that anymore.
So, seeing someone look forinitiating Protection dot QRS
should be a sign to me that Ineed to at least look at that
(24:12):
and see what's going on there.
Ed Drozda (24:15):
Wow.
It's just so expansive, isn'tit?
It's very clear that it's notreally sufficient for the
layperson to try to manage allthis themselves, especially when
so much is at risk.
Our brand is our identity, andthat which we use to put it in
front of the audience, in frontof the world is absolutely
critical.
(24:35):
So, we are approaching the endof our time here.
Funny how time goes quickly whenyou're having fun.
What would you like to leave uswith?
Is there anything particularlycritical, important that you'd
like to leave us with?
Richard Rimer (24:50):
You know, we talked about newer things, but
I'll leave you with somethingthat's old because it happens
all the time.
Sure.
When you're choosing a brand,and I know I'm talking to a lot
of younger companies that aregonna be launching new products
or maybe new companies soon, donot choose a brand that
describes exactly what you do.
There is no ability or verylimited ability to protect that
(25:13):
from a legal perspective.
You see people doing that allthe time, and their thought is,
well, that will make it easierfor my consumers to find me and
know what I'm doing.
For example, my company's nameis Initiating Protection Law
Group.
The law group does that portion.
Initiating protection issomething that's unique and
different.
No one else, another law firmthat I'm aware of is using that.
(25:35):
That is my uniqueness.
So pick something unique.
And when I say descriptive,obviously the words law group
are descriptive.
They're fine to be in there,just not only those, but also
things are descriptive thatpeople don't think of as last
names.
If I had chosen Rimer Law Group,there's really nothing
distinctive about that, and it'svery difficult to protect.
(25:56):
And then, place names.
I'm in the state of Georgia.
If I had chosen Georgia LawGroup, that would be very
difficult to protect.
So put some thought into thisand really what I'm saying is
plan as though you're going tobe a smashing success.
Don't put yourself in a positionso that five, 10 years down the
road, you're going to have torebrand to give yourself the
(26:19):
legal recourse that you'll wantwhen you are a smashing success.
It's very easy to make some veryminor changes at the beginning
and give yourself somesignificant advantages down the
road.
Ed Drozda (26:31):
Because to go back and do it down the road would be
incredibly cumbersome, if notpractically impossible.
Richard Rimer (26:38):
And mostly from a marketing perspective the
business cost of doing that iswhat's so challenging.
Ed Drozda (26:44):
Right.
I don't know who you areanymore.
Yeah, I could see that beingdisastrous.
Well, Richard, I wanna thank youso much for being here with me
today.
I always find your conversationand your online videos, by the
way, very informative, and Ithank you for that.
Once again, my guest today isRichard Rimer, a brand
protection lawyer and thefounder of the Initiating
(27:04):
Protection Law Group.
I want to thank you and remindyou all that your brand is your
brand.
Maintaining that asset, beingsure to protect it from others,
that is to keep it in your handsis extremely important, so don't
lose sight of that.
Richard, thank you again, Sir.
Richard Rimer (27:25):
Thank you, Ed, have a great day.
Thanks for having me.
Ed Drozda (27:27):
You as well.
Folks, this is Ed Drozda, TheSmall Business Doctor.
Here at The Water Trough, asalways, I wanna wish you a
healthy business, and I wannawish you a safe and well
identified brand.
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