'Digital Body Language' with Erica Dhawan

Humans rely on body language to connect and build trust, but with most of our communication happening from behind a screen, traditional body language signals are no longer visible - or are they? Erica Dhawan, the world's leading authority on 21st century Collaboration and Connectional Intelligence, joined the Way Forward webcasts to bring key insights to our PEO audience. 

In her new book,Digital Body Language, she combines cutting edge research with engaging storytelling to decode the new signals and cues that have replaced traditional body language across genders, generations, and culture. In real life, we lean in, uncross our arms, smile, nod and make eye contact to show we listen and care.
 
Dhawan investigates a wide array of exchanges-from large conferences and video meetings to daily emails, texts, IMs, and conference calls-and offers insights and solutions to build trust and clarity to anyone in our ever-changing world. Digital Body Language will turn your daily misunderstandings into a set of collectively understood laws that foster connection, no matter the distance.

Episode Transcript

Leon Goren (00:00):
Hi, I'm Leon Goren, president of PEO leadership a
eer to peer leadership advisoryirm. We're an amazing community
f CEOs, presidents and seniorxecutives. Ask yourself are you
earning as fast as the world ishanging? It's time for Ontario
usiness leaders to bandogether for counseling support.
t's time for you to tap intohe business with some of our
eer groups and unlock new wayso grow. I want you to come out

(00:23):
f this COVID crisis a bettereader and your organization
eady for what's next, take theirst step at po dash
eadership.com Special thanks toleveland Clinic for helping us
or you today's po leadership'save forward podcast. We're
hrilled to have Erica Dhawanith us today. Erica is the

(00:43):
orld's leading authority on the1st century collaboration and
onnectional intelligence. Ashe founder and CEO of
ontention a globalrganization. Erica helps
ompanies leaders and managerseverage collaboration skills to
nnovate further and fasterogether. She was named by
hinkers 50s as the Oprah ofanagement ideas and featured as

(01:06):
ne of the top 20 managementxperts around the world by
lobal gurus. her newest book,hich we're going to talk about
oday, digital body languageeleased this month and now
umber three on the Wall Streetournal decodes the new signals
nd cues of effectiveollaboration and teamwork in a
igital first human workplace.
e is also the co author of theest selling book, get big

(01:27):
hings done the power ofonnectional intelligence named
umber one on what corporatemerica's reading. Eric is well
nown for talks and presentationn stages ranging from the World
conomic Forum at Davos, and Tedo companies such as Coca Cola,
edEx, Goldman Sachs, Walmart,cid, SAP and Cisco. She writes
or the Harvard Business Revieworbes Fast Company. She has

(01:49):
egrees from Harvard University,IT Sloan and the Wharton
chool. And for those of you oninkedIn, you probably have seen
ome of our other Erica'sharacteristic. She's a
antastic dancer. I've seen herancing in bookstores. And I've
lso seen her dancing with theirids. Totally engaging,
nspiring. Erica, welcome to oureries to be here. Thank you so

(02:12):
uch for having me and welcomeveryone. Erica. Great book and
asy to read book. I actuallyoved it. I put it down a couple
f days ago is finished. Tell ushat sort of got you going on
riting this book. I know it'seen a long journey. And as I
ead it, I almost like I get tonow Erica really well through
er entire life.

Unknown (02:35):
I grew up as a shy and introverted kid in Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania. My parents wereIndian immigrants. So at home,
we spoke Hindi and Punjabi,which meant at school I had
accented English. And I reallystruggled. I got teased. But one
of the things that became mysuperpower, because I was so shy
was deciphering other people'sbody language, I would watch the

(02:56):
popular girls with their headshigh, the cool kids slouching
during school assemblies. And itreally helped me understand that
it's not what people say it'show they say it. And then at
home, I would watch bollywoodmovies, and not know exactly
what the actors and actresseswere saying in Hindi, but I
couldn't read the entirestoryline, their body language.
So fast forward 30 years, Iended up as a communications and

(03:20):
collaboration expert for globalcompanies. And in many ways,
about five or six years ago, Istarted hearing the same
questions from my clientsquestions like, why is there so
much misunderstanding at work?
Or how do we better connect withdifferent ages and working
styles? And what I realized wasthat there was no rulebook for
the body of our language in adigital world, just like I was

(03:41):
an immigrant to traditional bodylanguage as a kid. Today, we are
all immigrants to digital bodylanguage. And that's why I wrote
this book.

Leon Goren (03:52):
That's awesome. So tell us your traditional when I
when I picked up the book, I wasthinking, Okay, maybe because
I'm in COVID, I'm in zoom mode,I was thinking it's digital.
It's the whole zoom thing. Butit's way bigger than that. It's
any type of communication, thatwhether it's email text, maybe
give us some examples,traditional body language,
versus the digital bodylanguage, so you can frame it

(04:15):
for people.

Unknown (04:17):
So digital body language first and foremost, is
much more than just how we showup on a video screen. It's about
how we make others feel, in amodern marketplace, everything
from our punctuation to ourresponse times to how we greet
and sign off an email to ourvirtual video call backgrounds,
our signals and cues, whether weknow it or not, that either

(04:38):
build or erode trust in today'sworkplace. I'll give you an
example. One of my clients senta message to his boss that said,
Do you want to speak Wednesdayor Thursday, and his boss
responded? Yes. And I like toshare that example because in
today's world reading messagescarefully is the new listening.
Writing clearly is the newempathy and in many ways, I

(04:58):
often like to say a phone orvideo Call is worth 1000 emails.
I'll give you another example. Achief marketing officer was on a
call with her team reviewing aboard deck. And she was
reviewing slides that her teamhad worked on for her. And she
said something of the legs up,you know, let's iterate on this
topic a bit more. She thoughtshe said, let's add two more
bullet points. One week later,her team comes back with 10 new

(05:21):
slides probably spent 40 hourson those slides, she just wanted
two bullet points. Imagine howde motivated her team felt when
it whittled down to two bulletpoints. So digital body language
is a critical skill today, ifyou're a leader, if you are an
executive, you need to not onlybe conscious of the signals
you're sending, even if youdon't intend to, it's critical

(05:43):
to be thinking about the digitalbody language of your culture,
are you creating cultures ofclarity and understanding or
confusion and passiveaggressiveness, and also,
digital body language can be anenabler of inclusion, it can
actually allow us to be moreinclusive than we ever were in
the office, I'll never forgetpre pandemic, I was on a
conference call three of us wereremote, and three people were in

(06:05):
the office. And it wasn't untilthe 26th minute of a 30 minute
meeting that someone in theoffice said, Does anyone on the
phone have something to share,we have been excluded the entire
time. Now I'm seeing you know,many of my executive clients
actually run meetings entirelydifferently. They're actually
sending agendas before themeeting. This allows introverts
to actually have time to thinkabout the topics before instead

(06:27):
of being rushed to speak, theyneed time to digest and they
were already struggling withairtime. They're using the chat
tool to avoid turn taking.
Again, this allows everyone tohave a voice versus typical over
talkers in a meeting, I alwaysrecommend never starting with
who wants to share, actually,you know, guiding everyone to
share in the chat. And thenmaybe calling them people that
have different or diverseperspectives is very helpful.

(06:47):
And the other thing that's veryhelpful is even having a meeting
notetaker, who's sending a quickemail recap of that meeting
within 30 minutes. It's like thenew virtual handshake and make
sure that everyone is trulyaligned. And those are the types
of examples of what digital bodylanguage is it's bringing
thoughtfulness back, because ourbody language hasn't

(07:08):
disappeared, it's actually justtransformed in a digital world.

Leon Goren (07:14):
It's so true. It's funny, I think about it, often
we do 360s, for example, a lotof leaders that participate with
us, and one of the learnings Ihave is every communication that
you have with any individual andthis was in the traditional
mode, right? You have aconversation with them. The
question you always askyourself, at the end of the day,
how did I engage or inspirethem? When I turn my back and

(07:35):
walked away? Did I leave themmotivated? I leave them
inspired. And it's no differentevery communication piece, you
almost going to be askingyourself the same question. In
terms of what this is, yeah,

Unknown (07:47):
I mean, I'll give you an example. You know, imagine a
team member who stayed up allnight to work on a slide deck
for you. And when they saw youin the office, the next morning,
they gave it to you they saw therelief in your face the smile,
the sense of appreciationvisibly through our body
language. Now we have toremember that many of those cues
are invisible. And if we justrespond with a K period, or even

(08:11):
a THX period, the THX period isnot a thank you. It's like an
acknowledgment, you got theemail, take the time to value
others, show your appreciation,give credit where it's due. And
it's not just a trivial thingthis can make or break
inclusion, satisfaction ofemployees engagement and it can
trickle into lost profits ifyour team members don't feel
valued.

Leon Goren (08:32):
So you got you talk about the Four Laws of digital
body language and I thoughtmaybe we could dissect because I
know we got a lot of executivesand leaders on on the call here
today. You got value visiblycommunicate carefully
collaborate confidently and thenyou got trust totally no trust
totally I you and I talked aboutI think it's almost an output of

(08:52):
those three things workingtogether. But let's break it
down like value visibly. Let'stalk a little bit about that
law. And even some ideas aroundhow do we actually make this
happen?

Unknown (09:03):
Yeah, well prior to the pandemic many of the ways that
we valued others visibly valuedour clients and customers valued
our employees valued ourcolleagues, our community
members was through bodylanguage was through the eye
contact the handshake the headnod the team dinner the off
site. In today's world, I liketo say valuing others visibly is

(09:24):
about valuing their time, theirinboxes their schedules. You
know, think about this moment intime where we are seeing zoom
fatigue, email overload. Irecently ran a study that showed
that the average employee iswasting four hours per week on
unclear or poor digitalcommunication. valuing visibly
today is about valuing people'stime. It's having thought from

(09:47):
meeting starting on time endingon time, it's acknowledging
individual differences introvertextrovert or those that are
savvy and tech those that aren'tand making sure you're creating
spaces for individuals to shareit. And last but not least,
Showing radical recognition,giving credit where it's due
asking for feedback starting themeeting with everyone sharing
what's a win of the week? What'sthe challenge of the week? One

(10:08):
thing that one of my clientsdoes is she in one on one, she
asked for bad news, and it'sliterally on the agenda, I want
you to share one piece of badnews that I don't want to hear.
It's much harder for those at ajunior level to share and bring
up red flags versus good thingsthat are happening. And
technology can create masks. Andso especially when we're running
virtual meetings as executives,we need to think less like

(10:29):
office hosts where we could readthe furrowed brows, or the
stroking of a chin, and instead,ask for it think like a TV show
hosts, they call on people theybring in individuals and
different opinions. Don't assumeeveryone is ok. actually check
in one one client I know, alwayshas a practice at the end. She
She says at the end, you know, Iwant everyone to share based on
this meeting, who was doing whatby when, and everyone gives the

(10:52):
report out imagine how just aseffective that is in Garner
engagement and also avoidingmultitasking?

Leon Goren (10:59):
Yeah, you know, it's funny, a lot of the I look, I
hear what you're saying. And alot of it also is in the
traditional space, too. It'sjust reminding ourselves to
actually do it in a digitalspace, when you got a million
other things going through yourhead is the screen operating as
the internet operating. But youknow, you mentioned reward
recognition. And I knowrecognition, even in a

(11:21):
traditional sense is hard forsome of these leaders, right?
They forget about this, if theyjump right into their meetings,
it's not on their agenda. Itmeans a lot. And I think in the
digital sense, you definitelydon't want to forget that. You
want to be able to pull peopleout recognize them for what
they're doing, especially duringthese times where burnout,
people are exhausted.

Unknown (11:40):
That's right, I actually worked with a CEO this
last year, who you know, priorto the pandemic used to come
into his town halls, he has1000s of employees, and meet
face to face in a bigheadquarters Hall and, you know,
read a script from corporatecommunications, use his
gregarious body language, and itworked well. He excited everyone

(12:01):
in the room, he got everyoneengaged, and then he would just
leave and get back to business.
back last March and April, hetried to do that on a zoom call.
He tried to read a script. Yeah,you know, and just, you know,
you're engaging all of us rightnow. But he was just lecturing
and his employees, they wereinsulted. They were disengaged,
and they didn't feel appreciateit. So we did a whole makeover

(12:24):
of his of his town halls. Nowwhat we do is actually, before
the meeting, he tapes, abusiness update a video
recording, and he asked hisemployees to watch it. Then
during the town halls, he'sflipped the script. And he has
an Ask me anything format, wherehis 1000s of employees can send
in questions before can ask himquestions in real time, he can't

(12:46):
fake a response, he showing hisown vulnerability, what he knows
what he doesn't know, theycelebrate birthdays, they give
appreciation awards to employeeswho have done innovative things
within the team during thesetimes. And it's created an
entirely different digitalculture. And so remembering that
what was implicit before intraditional body language now is

(13:06):
to be explicit, and digital bodylanguage. And even as we go back
to hybrid work, this is going tobe more important than ever, we
were often excluding many peoplein face to face meetings,
introverts that never got time,just share, because we didn't
have tools like the chat, sothat they could avoid turn
taking, we often were biased towho was in the room versus who
was coming in on a conferencecall. So thinking about having a

(13:28):
remote Team Hosts, and alliedmeeting host is actually
important for a quality inmeetings, and maybe making sure
that that remote team host isleading parts of the agenda as
well. And simple things likethis, I think are going to allow
us to drive much moreinnovation, if we think about
digital body languagethoughtfully than we even had in
the past. That's great.

Leon Goren (13:52):
And thank you for sharing that story. That's,
that's an unbelievable, that's agreat story. And it's something
that we should all consider intown halls. I mean, you can
imagine how that would work,turning it into a q&a and
interactive with your audience.
So that that's fantastic. Whatabout the second one?
communicate carefully?

Unknown (14:09):
Yeah. So communicate carefully, is really about
creating a culture ofunambiguous expectations and
norms. People know what to do,why they're doing it when
they're doing it. There is aculture where you know, which
digital channels you're usingfor what, not endless reply all
emails, not hour long zoommeetings with 30 people that

(14:30):
really should be six people inonly 25 minutes. You know, we
live in a world where this canbe exhausting. And many of you
in the chat have been sharingsome of your pet peeves, and a
lot of them really tie into theimportance of communicating
carefully and you're feelingthis. So simple practices I
talked about in the book areremembering that all of our

(14:51):
digital communication isactually visual. People read
emails like they read websites.
Did you have a good subjectline? Were you to the point did
you you know, use bold andunderline head setting some
norms with your team. I know aclient who set email standards
you always want to work withrequests are being sent. You
have a who, what when you don't,you know, you avoid all these
niceties, you just get to thepoint because it's actually

(15:11):
valuing people and creatingclarity. I have another client
who created acronyms with mewhere that would help create an
understanding. So for example,in subject lines, for H men, I
need this in four hours to Dmeans I need this in two days,
and MTR means no need torespond, which avoids a lot of
unneeded communication. And myfavorite was RM which meant

(15:32):
respond on Monday, especially asa CEO, if you send an email on a
Sunday, you could wait you know,and you expect maybe a response
on Monday, it actually isn'tclear. So take the time to give
your team space to think andmost importantly, remember that
there's high levels of digitalgroupthink, the speed of
communication is often causingus to reward the fastest person

(15:53):
to respond, the quickest personwho jumps in on a call, and
communicating carefully isactually giving that space for
team members to think andprioritize thoughtfulness over
hastiness.

Leon Goren (16:05):
So let's talk about the mediums in there, because
you mentioned a few, mostly, wetalked to you about emails, but
there's really a few mediumshere in terms of how we
communicate, there's text,there's emails, there's the zoom
call that we're doing right now,when is it appropriate? When do
you use? Which one? Yeah, arethere any rules that we should

(16:25):
be following here?

Unknown (16:27):
There are some rules, and I share them in my book, and
I'm going to share them rightnow as well have some standards.
And also caveat in with, thereare different norms in different
cultures in different industriesas well around this there. I
know businesses that are techbusinesses that are pretty much
email free internally and useslack and then only email their

(16:47):
clients. There are othercompanies who are using zoom,
especially in financialservices, but more so on zoom
audio, not as much on zoomvideo. So again, we're we're
seeing an entire range,depending on the industry and
the company culture. However,there are some factors that are
important. And I think this is amoment to actually set some
hybrid collaboration normsaround these channels. So one

(17:11):
general thing is, when you aredeciding which channels to use
and how your employees use thesechannels, not only internally,
but with clients and customers,you need to analyze three
factors, complexity, urgency andfamiliarity with the person. So
first complexity, is this highcomplex. Do we need a video call
to actually talk this out? Or athoughtful email with a

(17:31):
screenshot of exactly what youneed? Or is it low complex a
quick I am that's a yes or no.
The second is urgency Do youneed it in five minutes or five
days, channels have differentimplied urgencies as well. So
you don't want to be the serialtexter. You know, and having a
team member text you back aroundthings that are urgent, when
they're not prioritizing thebigger things that are urgent,

(17:52):
as well. And so knowing thatthere may be standards, email
may be 24 hours, I am maybe youknow, within an hour in business
hours, but if you email it inthe evening, you'll get it the
next day, you know, phone callsout of the blue, maybe normal
for urgent things, but you'llschedule them otherwise. These
are simple things that actuallycan avoid a lot of

(18:13):
miscommunication I've seen, youknow, if you look at digital
natives, those that grew up withtechnology tend to skew younger,
to the other end digitaladapters, those that I like to
call are immigrants to digitalbody language, they've had to
adapt, especially in this lastyear, you know, a digital native
will send a thoughtful email tohis or her boss with questions.
And the you know, adapter willsay, let's get on the phone to

(18:35):
discuss and the native will belike, why don't you just answer
my email so I can get back tothe work and the adapter will be
like, why don't you just call meso I can get back to work. And
we have to remember that evenacross generations, there are
differences and in preferencesand channels. So what is your
job as an executive to actuallyset some standards not focused
on your own preference, but onwhat is best for the task at

(18:56):
hand,

Leon Goren (19:00):
is to talk about setting standards. And I know
you're working with a lot oforganizations, best practice
other organizations that areactually setting standards
across the board in terms of theentire organization in terms of
the communication vehicle theyshould be using. has it come to
that or I just wondering,through this COVID period
through the rush on to zoom orMicrosoft Teams, it became

(19:23):
chaotic, or has people havepeople actually adjust to this
now and people are sort ofmoving along freely and it seems
to gel. You

Unknown (19:31):
know, one of the things I recently published in Harvard
Business Review and I shared itin the chat just now is a
communication standard. I satwith one company and actually
what the standard was. So ifyou're curious about it, you can
check out the chat and see thearticle. There are some
companies doing this becausethey're realizing that there is

(19:52):
a lot of emotional wastehappening inside their
workplaces. And it's not just aproductivity issue. It's a
collaboration issue. It's across functional innovation.
issue and it's causing lostprofits, sales teams are wasting
time in, you know, emailoverload instead of really being
out there with customers andclients because of a lack of
coordination and effective useof each channel. One of my

(20:14):
general rules of thumb is, a lotof organizations tend to be
adding new collaboration tools.
Right now they're trying outSlack, they're adding Microsoft
Teams, one of my general rulesof thumb is you should never add
a new tool unless it replacesanother tool. And it has a very
specific new purpose. So if youadd slack set a rule, we will no
longer email about these fivetopics. And it's only on slack

(20:35):
and have some channel advocatesin your employee base that are
moderating that with the clientI worked with, we actually had a
hashtag, where if you sent anemail about it, people would
just respond with the hashtag,you know, we're not responding
to this, go go to slack. Andwe'll respond there. And while
that may seem, you know, alittle cheeky at the end of the
day, it actually does transformand change behavior quickly. And

(20:57):
these tools are actually arebetter, but we have to use them
and implement them carefully.
And they also have to be modeledat the top. But you know, if
you're a leader who doesn't wantto engage in these ways, I think
there's two things you need tothink about. One is what may
work for you may not work foryour entire employee base. So

(21:18):
make sure you have differenttypes of digital mediums. And
the more that you can rolemodel, the importance of
engaging thoughtfully indifferent channels, the more
others will do the same. AndI'll give you an example. I work
with an executive at a gamingcompany. And they use slack as a
as a channel. And he talks abouthow he has two direct reports.

(21:39):
One is Allie, and her Slackchannel with her team is like
beautiful, there's bulletpoints, there's headings,
there's perfect punctuation. Andhe has an executive feels at
home, he knows exactly what'sgoing on with the team. And then
he goes to Brad's Slack channel,his other direct report, and so
confusing its gifts and meansand, you know, emojis. And he

(22:02):
has no idea what was going onand is actually quite concerned.
But then he realized that theoutput of both teams was the
same. And if he were to makeBrad more like Ali, and more
like what was his comfort, itwould actually cause a, you
know, not as effective workproduct. So part of this is also
as an executive, beingcomfortable being uncomfortable,

(22:23):
and not focusing on you know,just the way you like to do
things. But really what willserve the best product for your
business?

Leon Goren (22:32):
Very true, but and difficult, right? Not as easy
and intuitive, especially if youyou know, you're running a
business and organization. Nowyou got to think about something
else around in terms of howyou're communicating on that
level. You touched onpunctuation just now. And I know
in your book, you really getinto it. And some of the stuff
I'm not even going to talkabout. Because it was shot, not
talking to me. It's like, Oh, Inever knew this. But it's

(22:56):
obviously extremely important.
And you know, I think there'stwo sides to it. One is from the
leadership perspective, becauseyou're the one with the power,
and you're sort of communicatingdown exclamation marks, 124 12
all mean different things. Andthen there's the recipient,
right. In terms, you talkedabout MBA ambiguity, like I
don't understand what thismeans. Can you give us a couple
examples on both sides, maybefrom a leaders perspective, and

(23:17):
also from the receiver end tojust so people can actually
frame this in their mind?

Unknown (23:24):
Yeah. So let's take some practical examples, you
know, an executive sending ateammate a question, in an
email, why don't you finish thisquestion, Mark, you know, from
Jane. That's an actual examplethat I talked about in the book.
And, you know, when you read anemail like that, a lot of the

(23:47):
ways that you read it are basedon two other questions. The
first is who has more or lesspower? And the second is, how
much do you trust each other? Soyou know, if you have high trust
with this person, maybe you mayread it and think to yourself,
oh, yeah, Jane Doe on a planeright now. And she's about to
take off. And she just wanted tocheck, you know, why didn't you

(24:10):
finish this just with genuine?
Is there something wrong withit? Did we not get the slides
from the client? But if you havelow trust with Jane, and you get
this, it can feel like shoutingand passive aggressiveness? Why
didn't you finish this with onequestion mark at the end? Or,
you know, God forbid, if therewere three question marks and
there's low trust, you're goingto feel like it's accusatory or
passive aggressive. The secondis the power dynamic. And, you

(24:32):
know, I think if you, you saidthat over and you had less power
dynamic, it could come off verydifferently or maybe friendly,
or even sometimes sarcasticversus if you had a higher power
dynamic. The other thing is thatdifferent punctuation marks can
actually mean different thingsnot only based on trust and

(24:52):
power, but also other factors.
In fact, let's take one examplewhich is capitalization. So if
one study showed that if a manin especially in text writes
here we go in like all caps, itcan feel more like urgency. If a
woman says here we go in allcaps and texts, it can feel more

(25:14):
like excitement. Another studylooked at the period at the end
of text messages, while youngerindividuals that tend to be
digital natives think that aperiod at the end of a text
signals passive aggressivenessor frustration, those that are
digital adapters that tend toskew older where digital
communication is something theyhad to learn in the workplace
themselves, it signals just goodgrammar and punctuation. So

(25:38):
remember that we are in a bravenew world, we have to assume
good intent, remember that we'regoing to misinterpret other
things and other individuals,and stay in the place of reason
don't get emotionally hijackedrole model, giving others the
benefit of the doubt. And alsojust simply no one to pick up
the phone. You know, picking upthe phone is worth 1000 emails.

Leon Goren (25:58):
That's great. So I'm gonna ask you also under the
communication, we've beentalking really about it
internally, right, from a bossto a staff to within an
organization. Now, you and Ilive in a world we're sort of in
the professional servicesindustry, right? And we all have
customers. Now, let's bring thetiming element in here, you get
a text from one of yourcustomers, how long do you have

(26:19):
to respond?

Unknown (26:21):
So again, I think a lot of it goes back to the power and
trust here. And it also goesback to your digital body
language style. And don't worry,I have an assessment in the
book. So you can actually getyour profile of your style and
assess your team. Well, sogeneral rule with text is
texting should imply urgency,you know, within the hour, or,

(26:44):
or within a few hours. Usuallypeople text with that purpose, I
recommend it, especially if it'sa customer or client try to
respond as quickly as possible.
Of course, if it's a weekend,and there's high trust, know
when not to respond as urgentlywhen you're with your families.
But also also know when toswitch the medium as well, I
have clients who say thatsometimes their their customer

(27:08):
will text them, but they quicklywant to move to email because
they want a record of thecommunication, they're about to
send an invoice for her. And soactually knowing when when a
customer may actually prefertext, but when it's important
for you as a service provider toswitch to email. And last but
not least, if you're if you'redealing with a serial text, or
someone that's abusing text andkeeps texting you or or you're

(27:30):
in a group chat, no one tosometimes respond and say got
it, I'll get back to you Sunday,or got it, let's move to email
or just respond by email, thisalso can help improve the norms
within your own culture.

Leon Goren (27:45):
I yeah, and I remember you talking about that
in the book. And that reallystuck with me, because there are
individuals who will text now.
And you know, if you're in aleadership position, or
customers, everyone's goteveryone's mobile number today,
it's not like it was 10 yearsago where you phoned the office.
But the idea of just textingback and saying, you know, what,
I'm away from the desk, won'thave a chance to respond till
Sunday or Monday, or I need acouple of days is a good way to

(28:06):
do this. The other thing Ilearned, and I think Kelly
taught me this too quickly onthe Apple phone turn off,
because I can see when it wasactually delivered, turn off the
notification.

Unknown (28:20):
It gets nuts, especially in WhatsApp or group
exchanges. I definitelyrecommend that. I think that the
other thing that's happened andit's been precipitated in the
last 15 months is just ourimpatience levels, we expect
everyone to respond to usinstantly. And I think this is a
moment, especially as a CEO oran executive, take your power

(28:40):
back, like bring sanity andclarity back have some norms
around this. You know, maybe youtell your team, if it's really
urgent and needed in the hour,you can text me but if not have
a clear subject line. And we'llall respond, you know, by the
next day. But make sure thesubject line is clear on exactly
what you need. It will save youtime and it will save them time.

Leon Goren (29:01):
Yeah, and I reiterate the role modeling is
important, especially everyonewatches how you're responding,
whether it's a customer,internally, they're watching how
you respond to that customer ifyou're willing to to do in a way
that's, you know, reasonable,I'm saying I'll come back to
you, then your team, sort ofyou're building a culture within
your own organization by rolemodeling that,

Unknown (29:20):
yeah, I'll get out I get texts from clients. And then
I usually just respond by emailsometimes because unless it's
really urgent, and usually it'snot. I think it's their way and
we have good connections andthere's difference between sort
of a friendly relationship andchit chat versus work. But if
it's work, I really try to moveit to a recorded structure

(29:42):
because you don't you don't wantback and forth or deals being
discussed in text. Or anythingcan get screenshotted or
forwarded.

Leon Goren (29:51):
I didn't think about that. That's true. That's very
true. I'm gonna ask theaudience, make sure put your q&a
into the questions like pleasestart throwing some questions
we're going to get to them. Andas you're doing that, Eric, I'm
going to come back. So the thirdlaw, collaborate confidently. I
love that, but maybe explain toeveryone what you mean by

Unknown (30:14):
collaborating competently is really about
creating a culture thatprioritizes thoughtfulness over
groupthink, as I shared a bitearlier, it is much more likely,
especially in a digital orhybrid workplace to opt in,
reward those that are thefastest to respond to an email,
the quickest person who jumps inon a zoom call. And that's not

(30:34):
getting the best out of youremployees, it's actually
creating high levels ofgroupthink. I've been working
with boards and actuallyobserving board meetings and
seeing very high levels ofgroupthink, certain people are
over talking over others. Thisis a governance issue, frankly,
now, if we don't think aboutdigital body language and set
some norms moving forward,especially as we go back to
hybrid meetings as well. It Alot of it has to do with really

(30:58):
thinking more thoughtfully aboutinforming the right people at
the right time not having 30person meetings, when really six
people need to be there. Theother individuals just need an
email summary, thereby notwasting their time causing them
to multitask and be disengaged,versus in optimizing the right
people to come together in theright ways. It's also about
understanding that it is yourjob as a leader to effectively

(31:21):
set priorities for your team.
Remember, they could read theirbody, your body cues before the
furrowed eyebrow, the pursedlips, the lean in when you are
excited. Honestly, on a videocall, it's much harder to read
any of those cues, we'reprobably only seeing about 5% of
traditional body language. Andin screen freezes and echo
delays, we're not seeing most ofit, frankly. So when it comes to
this, setting clear priorities,but even hierarchically

(31:44):
organizing them, oftentimes teammembers can just respond to
what's at the top of their inboxsets, you know, hierarchical
priorities 123. And this willallow your team to really do
what matters most. And lastly,pay attention to the details.
Remember, if you tell a teammember, I need a report by the
end of the week, but then youmake them rework it for two
months, because you didn'treally know what you wanted, you

(32:04):
just shot off a hasty email.
This has an impact onconfidence. Or you you say, you
know, I need this by tomorrowmorning. But it's really not a
fire drill. And you're, youknow, ending up causing an all
nighter for a team member.
Again, there are fire drills,but when it's not this will
quickly erode trust. So, youknow, as we think about this, we

(32:26):
have to be much more consciousthat what was implicit before
has to be explicit now.

Leon Goren (32:34):
That's great. And you know, so if I take those
three things, and you've got agreat diagram in your book,
right, you got the three rings,and you got in that middle? What
do we have trust? Totally. Andit's every leaders desire, I
mean, you want it's all abouttrust within an organization
where there's a traditionalmeans of communication, or
through the digital stuff. Thosethree and you got, the fourth

(32:58):
one you got is trust totally, Ithink about if I do those three
things, well, the outcome istrust, we're going to create a
trust environment and trustculture.

Unknown (33:07):
That's right, I think value visibly plus communicate
carefully. Plus collaboratecompetently equals trust
totally. And I actually withincompanies, we run this as an
assessment where we actuallyhave individuals measure
themselves, but also their teamson these three indicators, and
give individuals and teams atrust totally score in what is

(33:28):
so really interesting is whenyou look at it by department,
and what I often find is you'llsee the variances, you'll see
team members that are reallygood at valuing others visibly,
but then they're terrible atcommunicating carefully or they
know how to collaborate. Butthere's no recognition there's
no sense of appreciation and andI think it is the power that all

(33:49):
three of these combined to buildtrust is important.

Leon Goren (33:53):
That's great. Before we head into the q&a portion of
this webcast, first a brief noteabout p OE leadership from one
of our members, I was madepresident just before COVID-19
lockdown began Nelson frescopresident Mila Canada, we
pivoted by compressing our fiveyear online strategy into the
last five weeks surprised Don'tbe Nelson is a member of P OE

(34:14):
leadership Canada's premier peerto peer advisory firm p OE
leadership helped me develop myability to lead with speed,
we've seen a substantialincrease in online sales and
meal offices worldwide arefollowing our Canadian example
the time to step up and lead isnow go to p e o dash
leadership.com. Let's go to someof our questions here. We got a
question here from Jenny, offendoffend area. I hope I pronounced

(34:37):
that correctly. What is youradvice presenting to board of
directors as CEO and speaking onannual general meetings as
president?

Unknown (34:47):
Yes. So let's be honest, we are all as executives
in the wild wild west of runningboard meetings and presenting in
a digital age and so many of theways that we were able to build
that engagement face to face orpretty much disappeared with the
lack of body language. So I havea couple of tips for you when

(35:09):
you're presenting in boardmeetings. The first is,
especially if you are apresenter, actually look into
the camera. Even though researchshows even though you can't see
everyone else's body language,they feel a stronger connection
to you, we tend to make eyecontact about 30 to 60% of the
time when we're face to face. SoI recommend at least 60% of the

(35:30):
time when you're presenting. Ofcourse, when you're not, you
want to be reading the cues ofothers and, and also make sure
you're far away enough wherepeople can see your face, but
also some of your handexpressions, but not too far,
where they you know, can't seeyour face as well. Even simple
things like investing in a goodwebcam and lighting, again, are
not trivial anymore, they signalexecutive presence. And last but

(35:53):
not least, remember that to be agood presenter today, you have
to think more like a TV showhost than an office board
meeting presenter. And that isdifferent. You know, it could
mean things like activelyengaging your board members to
use the chat to share questionswith you calling out sending
materials really thoughtfullyand advanced with three or four

(36:14):
questions. And using a virtualwhiteboard to have them share
some of their comments in awhiteboard in real time to
create that discussion wherewe're not turn taking one person
after another person, but reallyusing these tools to actually
speed up discussions and empowereveryone to speak up at the same
time. And you know, anotherthing that I think is important

(36:35):
is in the discussion or portionis to actually call on people
you haven't heard from like yourjob as a CEO, you can actually
make sure you're hearing fromdifferent voices or say, you
know, we're going to have evermade, it'd be great to have
everyone share for about twominutes each and have a team
member, you know, note taker ormanage time. And again, this
could feel awkward, but it'sactually empowering and

(36:58):
thoughtful, and it will allowothers to feel more valued and
more engaged in the meeting thanin the past.

Leon Goren (37:05):
I have a question for you on that as well, just
building on it. And yourperspective on PowerPoint
presentation. So I present tothe board, I present strategic
stuff, you know, you end up inthis is actually just happened
yesterday, I realize you'redoing a presentation, you're in
a small little box, talkingabout there's no very hard to

(37:26):
get any body language from thereor by visibility or anything.
And it's overwhelming thepresentation, our PowerPoints,
toast in this type ofenvironment. Like,

Unknown (37:39):
you know, I think that it depends, similar to the town
hall story I shared earlier,there could be a lot more
thoughtfulness to what happensbefore the board meeting, what
is shared before what is askedto be reviewed, maybe not
everyone will review it, but itcan, if you start to set that
behavior, it can actually changeand make board meetings much
more thoughtful versus oneperson lecturing and presenting.

(38:03):
The other thing is, there arecertain cases where PowerPoints
are incredibly important, butyou don't want to have tons of
text on them. You know, peopledon't have them printed out,
they're just looking at them onthe screen and trying to listen
to you as well. So knowing whento actually have a screenshare
up and when to say okay, inabout 10 minutes, I'm going to
unshare and then getting youknow, we'll get in gallery,

(38:24):
gallery view mode and have atrue discussion. And also
knowing when to have the screenshare and when not to is an
important thing. And I think aswe go back to hybrid meetings,
this is going to be reallyimportant where we'll have board
members in the room and thenboard members coming in on video
screens, and also making surewe're not avoiding bias to those

(38:45):
in the room versus those onscreens. We even tend to be more
biased to listen more deeply tothose that we see on video
versus those that are off videoon on video channels. So making
sure that you're creating spacefor everyone. Using breakout
rooms calling on people isactually much more important
than it ever was before. Kelly,do you want to share some more
questions in the chat? Sure.

(39:06):
I actually have one that's inthe q&a if that's okay. And it's
what are some unconsciousmistakes that people make and
communicating to others email.
Some unconscious mistakes thatwe make communicating an email
lol The first is we rush theemail and don't answer the
question. You know, like thestory I shared you want to speak

(39:28):
Wednesday or Thursday and answerwith a yes, I find that a lot of
people are either reading sofast, and they're just trying to
get things done and makemistakes that way or they're
reading into one line and theythink that someone who wrote
perm our last conversation isbeing passive aggressive when
they're just you know, using thelanguage that their boss uses or
that they learned in businessschool. So don't rush and don't

(39:49):
read in haste to or ruminate andget emotionally hijacked. The
second thing is an email notanswering with a clear you know
what you need from the otherperson I have a client where we
set a standard where every emailhas to start with an acronym
called wind fee, which meanswhat I need from you, then that
simple acronym just gets to thepoint quickly, and then you can

(40:10):
share more color. It avoids allthese verbose messages that
really get in the way ofengagement.

Leon Goren (40:16):
All right, it's from James Macintosh. Seems like bad
actors move poor behavior fromin person to digital has the
pandemic provided someopportunities for organizations
with poor norms, rethink andoverhaul their practices to
drive real improvement? If so,please provide an example.

Unknown (40:34):
I think that what has happened is poor behaviors have
become poor, and great behaviorshave become better. And there
are certain leaders who havetaken action to create a reset
in their cultures and othersthat are still struggling with
this, were often oblivious torealizing that their team
members are not okay. And I'mjust kind of ignoring it.

(40:58):
Without realizing the impact,it's having to lost profits. So
you know, one of the things Ireally recommend is, at this
moment, especially as someorganizations or in the next
year, you'll be thinking abouthybrid, or going back to the
office, doing a bit of a digitalculture audit right now,
starting with asking, and I havethese questions in the book, you

(41:19):
know, what have been the bestexperiences you've had, within
teams and emails and conferencecalls and video meetings, and
what have been the terribleexperiences, what have been poor
experiences, and what are whathave been the great behaviors
and poor behaviors you've seen,and then use that to actually
set new standards within yourcompany culture, this is a great
time to do it, we're 15 monthsinto this. And when I've done

(41:43):
that exercise in leadershipworkshops I've run, you know,
we'll see that many employeesfeel so much more geographically
included, they are breakingsilos, they're talking to team
members in different locationsin ways they never were before
because of the power of videocall meetings. And then I hear
other team members that are moredisengaged than ever, because

(42:04):
one leader who, you know, issending really terse, confusing
emails and is not reallyengaged. And that team member
may be struggling with kids athome or whatever it may be. And
there's not the rightcommunication structure. And so
I think that at the end of theday, what is most important
right now is to actually stopassuming that people are okay,

(42:27):
if you haven't heard from them,ask, get some feedback, do a bit
of a digital culture audit,understand how this is affecting
employees at different levelsand locations. Number two, set
some standards not only for Teamcommunication, but cross team
communication. Research hasshown that strong ties have
gotten stronger, but weak tieshave gotten weaker, in in, in

(42:50):
the pandemic. So you want to beable to master that cross
functional collaboration. Butyou need to create spaces for
it. I recommend, you know,regular cross functional
gatherings, virtual office hoursthat allow you to bring
different team members anddifferent functions together, or
even regular peer to peernetworks at different levels
that can connect digitally tobreak down a lot of those

(43:12):
traditional silos.

Leon Goren (43:14):
That's great. It's funny, it actually leads in a
little bit and you've touched ona bit but the next question asks
about the biggest culturaldifferences right between
American, European, Asian SouthAmerica and you talk about that
in your book. And it's, it's aninteresting topic to a lot of
the leaders that I deal withhere in Canada because we run
multinational organizations,their fortune 500. And it's

(43:36):
ongoing all the time. And it hadto be over zoom. They used to
get on planes and travel. And Iactually believe they're
actually going to get on as manyplanes anymore because the CFOs
have cut back on travelexpenses, they're not coming
back. How do you deal with that?
Because someone in South Americais very different than someone
in Toronto, very different thansomeone in the even within the
US East Coast is very differentthan the West Coast.

Unknown (43:59):
Now, I am I have a client in the financial services
industry. She's an executive,she runs a global steering
committee, and she's based inNew York. She has a team member
in London, a team member inSydney, Australia and a team
member in Buenos Aires,Argentina. And her colleague
Javier in Buenos Aires, was notengaging much on the zoom calls.

(44:20):
You know, it was usually just aconversation between the three
of them, not the four of them.
And at first she thought maybehe's multitasking then she
thought, you know, maybe he justisn't as interested. And then
finally, she said, You knowwhat, maybe I should just ask,
and she sent him an eye out. Andhe finally wrote back he said,
I'm having such a hard timetranslating three different
English accents when English isnot my native language and

(44:42):
American of British and anAustralian accent at the same
time. And I think that reallywas an eye opening moment for
her she had to check her bias.
You know, we are not all thesame. And we do have cultural
differences. They actuallystarted using closed captioning
and meetings and recordingcalls, which actually does help

(45:02):
with global differences, thosethat can join those that maybe
English is not their firstlanguage, they always actively
use the chat. Now to make surethere's different ways of
learning and communicating. Andthis is especially important
those with deep accents thatmaybe weren't ever getting heard
much in phone calls and inperson meetings, and actually
can shine more through some ofthese different written

(45:25):
communication channels. When itcomes to, you know, thinking
about these cross culturaldifferences, I have a lot of
best practices, a whole chapterin my book that looks at high
context cultures, those thatreally are very based on
implicit, you know, cues andsignals versus low context
cultures, those that are muchmore comfortable with direct to
the point, language, expect toread my email. And, you know,

(45:49):
general rule of thumb,especially Asian countries,
Korea, China, Japan, it's verycommon to the way that cross
cultural communicationdifferences were in person. You
know, if you ask a Japanesecolleague to do something on a
zoom call, they may say yes, butyes, may mean, yes, I
acknowledge your request, not Iwill do it in order to save
face. But you might want to havethat one on one phone call with

(46:10):
them. Similarly, in Westernculture, you know, it's very
normal to just send a peer awork request. But if you do
that, in India, which tends tobe more hierarchical, depending
on the company culture, if youdon't loop in the boss, it can
actually sometimes insult theboss of that team with that of
that team. So again, I thinkhaving some standards and

(46:32):
actually talking about thedifferences in the similarities
is important. One of my clientsin the UK, he would always end
his emails with Best regards anduse words like, you know, I
regret to inform you in hisemail language. And his
Brazilian colleagues thought hewas so rude and off putting
because he didn't use emojis orexclamation points, which is
common for that. So again, weare not all the same, but it's

(46:54):
important to recognize it.

Leon Goren (46:56):
You know, in this throughout your whole book, it's
the one thing that six know youraudience. I mean, in traditional
ways, we had to know ouraudience, when I was addressing
a town hall, I'd want tounderstand what means something
to them, what's important tothem. Same thing with the
digital communication, know youraudience, here, we're talking
about communication to make surethey understand what's
important, what's not important,how it resonates with them.

Unknown (47:18):
Yeah, I actually know a CEO that used to who told me, he
said, You know, my meetings usedto be, especially the global
team would come together oncalls. And you know, there was
headquarters, people in theroom, and then those coming in
by phone. And there was such abias to the headquarters
audience, they were heard for,like 80 to 85% of the meeting.

(47:39):
And now what he does is he makessure there's equal voices from
every country on the call. Theyhear just as much from the
Amsterdam team and the, youknow, the loggos office as they
do the New York office. And thisreally creates much more
inclusion and also cross globalcross team sharing in a way that
wasn't happening before.

Leon Goren (48:00):
And it improved performance. Yeah, you
everybody's engaged. It'sreally, really important.

Unknown (48:06):
Exactly, exactly. I think the answer is not just
saying that you can't wait to goback to the office because the
future of work is here. And andyou were, we were all actually
quite biased while we were inthe office, who was in the room
versus who wasn't. So this is anopportunity not to go back to
work, but actually transform andimprove company cultures again,
to drive more profits movingforward.

Leon Goren (48:29):
That's great. So I'm gonna keep pushing. Here's an
intro. How do you recover from acommunication mishap? And I
guess, it depends what thatcommunication mishap is.

Unknown (48:39):
Yeah, I mean, again, I have I have a lot of stories of
communication mishaps that I'veI have done and experience and
others have done from anemployee sending a reply all
email to an entirely computercompany into an entire company
server and getting fire to someof you may remember Oscar
immunise from United after anemployee or passenger got

(49:03):
dragged off a plane, some of youmay remember the video a few
years ago, he responded withlike a tone deaf tweet saying,
you know, we he didn'tapologize. He just said, you
know, this person was bumpedbecause over bookings and the
United stock price dropped by abillion dollars in value that
day, and it didn't drop. Afterthe video went viral, it dropped

(49:24):
after the CEO sent a tone deaftweet. So again, we have to be
conscious that our digital bodylanguage matters, not only
internally, but with ourcustomers. And if you create a
mishap, you know, respondquickly. Speed matters more than
substance, especially whenyou're trying to apologize and
also no one to just pick up thephone. don't respond by email.

Leon Goren (49:44):
Yeah, I think people forget that. Right. I still,
like the last part of the phonesection we forgot. Like there's
a phone usage, no interpretationnecessary when you pick up a
phone call and you startspeaking to someone

Unknown (49:58):
Yeah. And if you want your team's to better on
Understand you tell them whatyour preferences are, as well.

Leon Goren (50:04):
So I'm also I'm following the chat. Here's the
fun part of a meeting. Right, wegot Chaco, and with a whole
bunch of questions, we got theq&a got, but in the chat we got
one talking about. And I knowit's an issue. I've heard this
in meetings coming how youappear on the zoom or the
Microsoft team meetings, casualuncap, you know, versus you

(50:26):
typically didn't go to theoffice that way? Is this thing?
Is it going to be a realitygoing forward that this is what
happens? Or do we need to reallythink about that, or is that the
organization's got to put insome policies now going forward
around

Unknown (50:38):
what was implicit before has to be explicit. Now,
I mean, some of it's obvious,but if you have a big company,
and you're seeing employees,wear t shirts on sales meetings,
wear a baseball cap, maybe setsome standards, this is your
opportunity. And if you wanteveryone wearing collared
shirts, just let them know, ifyou want everyone on video, send

(50:59):
it in the meeting agenda, makeit a standard, if you don't want
to create video call for keymaybe hat do what city group
did, which was audio onlyFridays, like casual Fridays,
and and you know, you can beauthentic to yourself around
this in your company culture.
But setting standards isactually effective. Now, it will
avoid a lot of wasted time, or,you know, how dare they eat

(51:20):
their sandwich during thismeeting, and instead just create
clarity.

Leon Goren (51:26):
That's great. So I'm gonna ask you, you know, I know
we're coming close to two tonoon here. You're involved in a
lot of different organizations,and you've sort of experienced
that whole COVID thing us is alittle different than Canada.
It's different everywhere in theworld. But I'm curious your
perspective, whether this hybridmodel is really going to work.

(51:48):
And the reason I'm asking isbecause right now the big
conversations everywhere isaround how to bring people back
to the office, right? Andwhether we're going to bring
people back full time, orthey're going to bring them in
for two or three days. You bringthem in for two or three days,
and we really are going to berunning a hybrid model. Yeah,
anyways. It's not easy changesdifficult. You're in there with

(52:10):
a lot of these largerorganizations. What's your
thought on? Is it really goingto pull through? Am I gonna see
something different in threeyears in terms of how we
operate?

Unknown (52:20):
Yeah, you know, I, I'm working with a lot of different
executive teams right now aroundsetting hybrid collaboration,
norms and standards. And I haveto be honest, it's messy. It is
not perfect. If you are a leaderwho says, oh, we'll just be
flexible. And we'll keep thisgoing forever. I think, you
know, remember, not everyone isthe same and don't assume

(52:42):
everyone is the same. And andwhat you really need to ask
yourself is not just how will wekeep this going? But ask a
deeper, smarter question, whichis, what are the places in
spaces, whether physical, youknow, face to face, hybrid or
remote, that will allow us togrow our business in scale our
business, and really definingthe places and spaces where we

(53:04):
need to come together, where weneed to where hybrid is fine.
And where remote is fine isincredibly important. Right?
Now, some some organizations Iwork with are doing the three
days a week, but settingstandards around, okay, what are
those three days and are theresetting meetings on those three
days for those meaningfultouchpoints and what happens in

(53:25):
between, to create that clarityand norms so that because
certain people actually thrivemuch more in the office,
especially working parents, thenthose that really loved working
from home, and we're much lessdistracted, or perhaps
introverts, and and without somereal definitions around this, it
can get really messy and reallyconfusing, and it can cause

(53:46):
certain people to sufferimmensely, and others to thrive.
The last thing I'll say thereis, it's easy for CEOs to say
we're going to be hybrid andflexible. But if someone's
individual boss as a FaceTimeperson, then think about how
they'll be impacted inperformance reviews. This is
going to create a lot of bias.
So unless you figured out how toremove the bias in performance

(54:07):
management, as you're doing thishybrid thing, you are going to
create a bifurcation within yourculture that's going to cause
you to lose high performingtalent. So those are a few
things I would share and Leanne.
I'm so honored to get theopportunity to connect with all
of you today. I want to thankeveryone for joining, I do have
a gift for everyone. I hope thatthey'll all check out the book.

(54:30):
But in the chat, I also shared afree digital body language
toolkit, which is a toolkit thatwill it's a four page download
of some of the best practices wetalked about today. And I'm also
sharing the link to my book andto my new online course. If you
have an HR leader or trainer inyour company, it's a great
course to think about how tobring these skills in or just

(54:53):
reach out to me if you want torun a workshop for your
leadership team or do a townhall on the topic.

Leon Goren (55:00):
Eric, I want to thank you a fantastic hour with
us. Thank you so much. If youhaven't picked up Erica's book
you got to pick it up before itactually sells out. I know she's
out there in every year onBarnes noble in the window this
morning. I know you posted thaton LinkedIn as well. Absolutely
fantastic book, easy to read,easy to turn the pages and get

(55:20):
through so Erica, thank you onceagain for sharing some of those
insights with us. It wasfantastic. Thank you so much
again. Enjoy. Enjoy. If you'reinterested in our the way
forward live webcast, pleasevisit us at po dash leadership
comm you'll find a number ofrecorded past webcasts I've
included Kim Scott and traerBrian when we focused on getting

(55:42):
shit done fast and fair, Morganhousel was on a couple of weeks
ago we had Joe Jackman, HarryKramer, Dr. Greg wells, Dr.
Jason Cech, Mitchell gold areand the list goes on. Later this
month, or actually next month,June 17. We welcome Zach mcherry
to purposeful leadership expertand author of the invisible
leader. he'll speak to us abouttransforming your life work and

(56:04):
organization with the power ofauthentic purpose. You really
don't want to miss that session.
And please spread the word.
Again, if you're interested inpo dash leadership. Sign up for
that eight week executive trialprogram. Honestly, time is an
excuse. I know if youparticipate, I'll make a big
difference connections are moreimportant than ever these days.

(56:27):
Until we meet again, I'd like towish you all a fantastic day end
of the week, and we'll see in afew weeks Take care everyone.

Unknown (56:38):
Founded in 1921 Cleveland Clinic is one of the
largest and most respectedacademic medical centers in the
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network of caregivers helpedmillions of patients each year.
That's peace of mind you justcan't get anywhere else. at
Cleveland Clinic Canada, we helpCanadians live healthier, more

(56:59):
active lives. We help companiesprotect the health of their
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across Canada Welcome toCleveland Clinic Canada. Welcome
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