'Diversity and Inclusion Frameworks' with Kim Scott and Trier Bryant

We - all of us - consistently exclude, underestimate, and underutilize huge numbers of people in the workforce even as we include, overestimate, and promote others, often beyond their level of competence. Not only is this immoral and unjust, it's bad for business. In a hugely impactful webcast with Kim Scott, leadership expert and author of Radical Candor, and Trier Bryant, diversity and inclusion expert, Leon Goren asked them about how a leader can use these teachings to change the culture of a workplace. Using examples and learnings from Kim's new book, Just Work: Get Sh*t Done, Fast & Fair, discuss a framework of how we can recognize, attack, and eliminate workplace injustice while transforming our careers and organizations in the process. 
Just Work reveals a practical framework for both respecting everyone's individuality and collaborating effectively. This is the essential guide business leaders and their employees need to create more just workplaces and establish new norms of collaboration and respect.

If you’re interested in tuning into the live webcasts, please visit https://peo-leadership.com/.

Tune in to our new podcast, Snippets! In short segments, Leon Goren brings together business leaders to share stories, best practices and learnings with the rest of the community. Available on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/snippets-with-leon-goren/id1510439127.

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Episode Transcript

Leon Goren (00:00):
Hi, I'm Leon Goren, president of PEO leadership, a

(00:03):
peer-to-peer leadership advisoryfirm. We're an amazing community
of CEOs, presidents and seniorexecutives. Ask yourself, are
you learning as fast as theworld is changing? It's time for
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(00:24):
ready for what's next, take thefirst step at
peo-leadership.com. Specialthanks to Vaughn Metropolitan
center for helping us bring youtoday's po leadership's way
forward podcast. So I just wantto introduce myself and get
everything rolling here. So forthose that don't know, I'm Leon

(00:46):
Goren and I'm CEO of PEOleadership and welcome to the
Way Forward our live webcastseries. If you're joining us for
the first time, and you're a copresident, business owner, and
or corporate executive, lookingto grow your leadership
capabilities and performance andof course, grow your business
you've landed in the right spot.
In this rapidly changingbusiness landscape. The
importance of expanding yourconnections and having

(01:08):
insightful and meaningfulconversations with the right
peers is now more important thanever. PEO leadership. Our
members include some of Canada'sstrongest leaders representing
almost every industry, they leadboth Canadian SMEs and large
multinational organizations. Andin our audience today, we're
also excited to welcome thebusiness leaders of our US
Alliance partners, Alliedexecutive, and Inc CEO project.

(01:29):
The leaders of all three of ourorganization understand the
value and importance of beingable to connect and think with
each other. You know, in lightof what we're talking about
today, collaborate and respecteach other as individuals as
well as we all work tosuccessfully achieve the
personal goals of our members intheir organizations. So if
you're thinking about the futureof your business, and navigating

(01:49):
through the many unknowns thatlie ahead if you're thinking
about your stakeholders, andyour employees and how you'll
continue to engage, inspire andsupport them. If you're thinking
about whether and how you shouldpivot your business and
understand the importance ofbeing able to step outside of
your building to learn fromothers, then I think you've
landed in the right spot. I urgeyou to reach out to us you can
visit us at our website, po dashleadership calm. Consider taking

(02:11):
part in our 60 day trialexperience what it's like to
have an advisor and a boardcommunity help you realize your
personal and professional andorganization's growth
objectives. So this morning, I'mvery excited to welcome both Kim
Scott and traer Brian Kim is theauthor of just work get
excellent not excellent get shitdone fast and fair, as well as

(02:36):
the New York Times bestsellerradical candor be a kick ass
boss without losing yourhumanity. Kim was a CEO at
Dropbox, co co co to Dropbox,Qualtrics, Twitter, Twitter and
various other tech companies.
She was a member of the facultyof that at Apple University and
before that, let adsense youtubeand double click teams at Google

(02:58):
earlier in her career can managea pediatric clinic in Kosovo and
started a diamond cuttingfactory in Moscow. She lives
with her family in SiliconValley. traer Brian is a
strategic executive leader withdistinctive tech Wall Street and
military experience spanningover 15 years. She's previously
held leadership roles at AstraTwitter Goldman Sachs, and

(03:18):
proudly served as a combatveteran in the United States Air
Force as a captain leadingengineering teams while
spearheading diversity, equityand inclusion. And that's just
for the Air Force Academy, AirForce and DLD. She's been
featured as an influential DNIpractitioner by several
publication outlets from USAToday to CNN and SK SW traer

(03:40):
earned a BS in systemsengineering with a minor in
Spanish and leadership from theUnited States Air Force Academy,
where she played division onevolleyball together, both Kim
and tree are founded just workin February 2021. Now before I
begin this session, a couplethings, one, let you know how I
think I hope it's going tounfold. So we thought we'd spend

(04:00):
the first 30 to 35 minutes moreof a fireside chat talking about
some of the opportunities, someof the issues, some of the
challenges, and then open up toq&a. And really have you put for
some of the questions some ofthe thoughts on your mind. And
to do so what I'm going to askis that you do it through the
chat. So please, as we're goingput the questions in there and

(04:24):
30 You know what, when we're inabout 3035 minutes, I'll go to
the chat box and try and eitherbring you out of mute so you can
ask the question yourself, or ifyou're not, you know, I know the
sensitivity of the subject and Ihope this won't be an issue but
if you're not feelingcomfortable asking a question or
you got something reallypointed, directed to me that you
got my name that's Leon Gordon,just do a direct message and

(04:45):
I'll ask the questionanonymously for them so really
want to get you all involved inOh Kim and tr do as well. And
let's get started. So goodmorning, Kim to air and welcome
to leadership.

Unknown (04:58):
Thank you so much for having Yes.
Good morning. Thank you.

Leon Goren (05:02):
So let's begin.
First of all, we talk quicklyabout the book. So I'm going to
start with the book at with Kim.
And just, Kim, tell us a littlebit of the inspiration behind
the book, what got your motive Iknow you love to write. But what
guides you behind writing thisbook?

Kim Scott (05:18):
Sure. So shortly after I published radical
candor, and by the way, if youwrite a book about feedback,
you're gonna get a lot out ofit. So I was getting a lot of
feedback about radical candor.
And I was in San Franciscogiving a presentation to a tech
company, and the CEO of thatcompany had been a colleague of
mine for the better part of adecade, and is one of two few
black women CEOs in tech. Andwhen I finished giving the

(05:44):
presentation to her team, shepulled me aside and she said,
Look, Kim, I'm really excitedabout radical candor. I'm
excited to roll it out on myteam. But I got to tell you,
that it's a lot harder for me toput it into practice than it is
for you. She said, as soon as Ioffer even the most gentle
criticism, even the mostcompassionate candor to someone,

(06:06):
I get signed with the angryblack woman stereotype. And I
knew this was true. And then shesaid to me, and I gotta imagine,
cam, it's a lot harder for youthan it is for the men who we
work with. And I also knew thiswas true. And I sort of had
three revelations at the sametime. The first was that I had
failed to be the kind ofupstander who I who I imagined

(06:29):
myself to be who I want to be.
Throughout. Throughout mycareer, I had failed to notice,
for example, for my colleague,who I really liked a lot, and
she was always, unfailinglypolite and pleasant, never
seemed even a slight bitannoyed. And I knew in that

(06:49):
period of time she had what tobe pissed off about and the time
we were working together. And ithad just never occurred to me
the toll that that must havetaken on her and that I had
refused to notice the thingsthat were happening to her. The
second was that I had and thisis particularly hard for the
author of radical candor toadmit, but I had been in denial

(07:11):
about the things that werehappening to me, I did not I
just had sort of gone through mycareer, pretending that what was
happening wasn't actuallyhappening to me as a woman in
the workplace. And perhaps mostdifficult of all, I realized
that I had failed to be the kindof leader that I imagined myself

(07:32):
to be, I often failed to createthe kinds of environments that
would prevent those sorts ofthings from happening to
underrepresented people. So thatwas, I guess, in a nutshell, why
I decided I better get out ofdenial and sit down and write
just work.

Leon Goren (07:50):
No, I thank you for that. Like, as I mentioned to
you before, I just finished thebook and it was it's fantastic.
So first of all, anybodylistening to this, you really
need to pick up a copy of thebook and not just read it once I
have it read through once butyou got so much information
there that it's it needs areread tree, or I'm gonna go to
you like, so how did the camtree or duo come together and

(08:14):
form just work? You're the CEOnow of just work?

Unknown (08:17):
Yeah.

Trier Bryant (08:18):
So when Kim reached out, and you know,
allowed me to read the earlyedition of the book, and we were
talking about, you know, youknow, what she wanted to do with
the book and potentially acompany. I was like, Yeah, like
I'm a chief people officer and areally great startup, literally,
a hot startup like rockylaunching rockets into space,

(08:41):
Astra. And I was like, what I'mgonna read the book. And so the
way that you know, Kim likes tojust say it is that Kim wrote a
book about having a lot of rootcanals. And she has ideas on
like, how to make it not aspainful. But she calls me the
actual dentist, right? Theperson who's been a people HR
leader. So I read the book. AndI thought it was incredibly

(09:02):
powerful and so differently onfor two reasons. One, I also
consider myself a DNIpractitioner. And we don't have
enough frameworks for people toleverage for leaders to leverage
for organizations to say, here'sa framework tactical and
practical and put this intopractice within your
organization. And so I said,Kim, we have to get this into as

(09:22):
many organizations into as manyleaders as possible. And then
the second thing that was justreally powerful is that I had a
lot of feedback for Kim. There'sa lot of things in the book that
if you are an HR people leader,you're going to be like, Oh, I
really don't want my manager todo that. I understand the
intent, but let's talk about itand work through it together.
But there's so much there whereleaders and organizations can

(09:45):
partner together and people inHR teams can take this to really
transform their organizations sothat you can have more equitable
and just workplaces. And Ithought that it was so powerful
that I thought it wasn't theopportunity to Leave my role.
But I did, I was so inspired.
And that's how just work at thecompany came into play.

Leon Goren (10:06):
That's awesome.
That's a great story. So let's,let's dive into it. And maybe I
start with Kim frameworks, I getthem when reading the book, you
are an expert at developingthese frameworks. But it's
fantastic because you put it insimple, simple terms for people
to really understand it. Let'stalk about definitions and
really the root causes of someof this workplace injustice. And

(10:29):
maybe you can talk a little bitsome of the definitions of how
you framed it to.

Kim Scott (10:36):
Yeah, so at least for me, one of the things that I
came to realize as I was writingall these stories about the
stuff that that had happened tome and my career, but also the
stuff I had done to other peoplein my career, like the first
part of the framework is beingvery clear about what your role
is. Sometimes I was the personharmed by workplace injustice,

(10:58):
sometimes I was the person whocaused harm. And and that was
actually harder to come to gripswith. Sometimes I was the
upstander, or the failedupstander isn't the story I just
told. And other times, I was theleader. And so being clear about
what you can do what what yourdegrees of freedom are to act in
each of these different roles isreally important. And then the

(11:19):
other thing that I realized isthat I often conflated thing,
three very different problems.
And so it's really important todisentangle them. We often
confuse bias with prejudice withbullying. And to me, once we
disentangle bias, prejudice andbullying, it becomes much

(11:39):
clearer what we can do abouteach so the simple definition of
bias is not meaning it, youdon't really and you don't
really intend to the theimplications of what you've said
and done or not something youreally believe. Prejudice, on
the other hand is meaning it,you actually believe this thing

(11:59):
when it's prejudice. And veryoften when I would, when I
would, when I would noticeprejudice, something prejudiced
being said, I would try topretend to myself that it was
bias, that was part. And itwasn't, it was actually
prejudice, I got to deal with itdifferently. And then last, but
not least, there is bullying,which is just being mean or

(12:20):
meaning harm. And and that youneed to deal with very different
way as well. So Tria and I havedeveloped some specific things
that leaders can do about eachof these three different things
and sort of think about how youcan teach your team to
distinguish among them.

Trier Bryant (12:39):
And Leon, when we're also talking about the
roles, an important thing tojust acknowledge is that you can
be in an hour long meeting andliterally play all four of those
roles. At the same time, you canbe a person who has been, you
know, being harmed by bias, thenyou could, you know, cause harm
by bullying someone in that samemeeting, be an upstander to

(13:01):
intervene when someone may beexhibiting prejudice, and then
as a leader, you know, have toput a mechanism in place to
prevent that. So we're nottalking over like courses of
days or weeks or months that youmight play these roles. Like
we're constantly shiftingthrough these roles throughout
our day, and in some time, veryshort time periods playing
multiple roles.

Leon Goren (13:21):
So just maybe, let's talk some examples in that
meeting. Right? So if you're thevictim, and somebody does some
and it looks unconsciously it'smost a lot of the stuff I'm
gonna assume. And we couldnature, it's unconscious bias,
but it happens in that room inthat first hour of a meeting, as
the and you do this in the book,what, but three, or what, as a

(13:43):
victim of what you do. And theone thing that resonate me is
silence is not the answer here.
And right.

Trier Bryant (13:51):
That's right, you want to we want to end the
default to silence so often, wedefault the song because we
don't know what to do. So Kimhas a great example about the
start of a meeting biashappening, and then what do you
do about it?

Kim Scott (14:05):
So so for example, a friend of mine ailing Lee walks
into a meeting with twocolleagues who are men, and the
they all sit down big conferencetable and they're meeting with
another company and everyonefrom the other company is a man,
first guy comes in and sitsacross from the guy to a lay

(14:26):
flat, the next guy comes in andsits across from the next guy
and then they file on down thetable leaving a lane dangling
off by yourself with nobodysitting across from her. And the
meeting begins. And it turns outthat a lien has the expertise
that they're there to talkabout, but every time a lien
opens her mouth, the man fromthe other company turned to one

(14:49):
of her male colleagues and askedhim for the follow up questions.
And this happened. So raise yourhand if you've noticed this
happen. Yeah. And so Thishappens once that happens twice.
It happens a third time. And hercolleague finally notices what's
going on. And he stands up. Andhe says, I think, a lien and I

(15:14):
should switch seats. And they doand it totally changes the
tenor. Because all of a sudden,everybody notices what's
happening. And the men from theother side had not intended to
exclude a lien in this way, whenthey realized what they were
doing, they change theirbehavior. And so it was so much
easier for him to do that thanit would have been for a lien.

(15:36):
If a lien had done it, therewould have been like bias on top
of bias, because she suddenlywould have been abrasive or, you
know, God knows what that shewould have been called some
other kind of gendered term. Andso so one of the things I want
to talk about and acknowledge inthis book is that the gratitude

(15:56):
that I have for the upstandersthat have that have helped me
throughout my career, and it'snot because I'm the damsel in
distress that I need help. It'sbecause it's much easier for an
upstander to intervene than itis for me to defend myself when
I'm the the person harmed, orthe victim, as you say, by the
way, I wrestled with thosewords, should I use fit them?

(16:16):
Should I use person harm? I'mnot sure you all can give me
feedback and tell me if I landedin the right place. So that's a
story about kind of what oughtto happen all the time. But that
that story that I just told,almost never happens. So Tria
has come up with some ways thatwe can intervene as leaders and
when it's bias.

Trier Bryant (16:36):
So one of the things, you know, that we talked
about in the framework is usingfor the upstander, using that AI
statement. Right? So yeah, Ithink we should switch seats,
right? And but it's inorganizations, how do you create
a culture where people arethinking in this way to
interrupt the bias, and so wecall these bias interrupters.
And so to create a biasinterrupter within your

(16:58):
organization, it's importantthat you have shared vocabulary
and then a shared norm. Soshared vocabulary means what's a
word or a phrase that everyoneknows when it said that someone
is acknowledging behaviors or anattitude? That is bias that
we're interrupting it. Right?
So, you know, Kim with hereditor for the book, they used
Yo, you know, maybe it's like,hey, biased alert, Kim and I at

(17:21):
just work and we are teaching acourse right now. We use a
purple flag, purple from thebook. So if someone says purple
flag, or you see Kim waving thepurple flag that we all know
that, hey, there was bias, butthen we need a shared norm,
because then what happens afterthat, because it can get a
little uncomfortable, right? Soactually, earlier, we through a
purple flag on Leon, saying,guys, right, giving, giving the

(17:46):
feedback. And so in that moment,we know that the norm is he
we're going to share what it isright? And then the person is
going to say, Hey, thank you foracknowledging for for raising
that. I appreciate it. Like I'lldo better, we get back to work,
the meeting, and conversationmoves forward. But what happens
if the person doesn'tunderstand? Right? So then the
shared norm is, Hey, I didn'tquite understand that one. Why

(18:08):
don't we connect after themeeting, and then we can have a
conversation, right? But theimportant thing is that we're
disrupting the bias, so that wedon't ignore it, and that we
don't perpetuate it. And that italso creates a learning moment
for everyone else for ourcourse, the other thing that we
do is because it's over zoom,which is so great, is that we
can drop a link or giveadditional detail in the chat.
So that again, the conversationin the course in the lesson

(18:31):
continue to go, but people canread and get caught up. And then
again, educate themselves. WhatI really love in Kim's example
with a lien is that the personknew that the bias needed to be
interrupted. Now maybe withexternal folks, you don't say
purple flag because they'regonna say what does that mean?
Right? But do you still use thepower of the if statement and
then you know, later on have aconversation with a lien and

(18:54):
say, Hey, if that was within,like our own company, I would
have said purple flag, but Irecognize the bias and I was
interrupting and I was being anupstander to stand up to the
injustice, right? Because it wasnot okay.

Leon Goren (19:09):
To try I just wanna we talked about it from an
external that was an outsidemeeting, team, a three letter,
whatever it was a presentation,but let's bring it into the
internal like within theorganization, right? And I'm an
accountant. And the first thingI learned when I when I started
running PL leadership was Imean, even look at numbers every
which way you want and have thebest strategy, but it's always

(19:31):
about the people, the cultureand and what else really, it
always started with the leader.
So getting a change of the waywe operate, the way we address
things has to start with theleader. Any advice on how we
start that you got a new leaderjust became a leader, a CEO of
an organization, they're therefor the first 90 days. How do

(19:52):
they change the culture and thenorms around allowing for the
interruptions to happen to catchthese

Trier Bryant (20:00):
Lead by example, be vulnerable, call yourself
out, right? call yourself intothat throw our purple. Kim and I
at least multiple times a daywill not only throw purple sides
of each other. But we'll alsothrow it on ourselves, right?
And there may be moments wherewe'll hear someone say
something. Can what was it theother day in a meeting? Oh, they

(20:23):
were talking aboutgrandfathering.

Unknown (20:25):
Yeah. And

Trier Bryant (20:26):
they said, Hey, we shouldn't use that term you are
and Kim wasn't familiar, right?
So I looked it up and put a inthe in the chat message. But
that person in that meeting,when we explained to them what a
purple flag was, and calling outthe bias, they did it on
themselves, and then educatedus, you know, on that. So I
think it's leaders to lean inbeing vulnerable, lead by

(20:46):
example. But also, you know,when we say person who's causing
the harm, and we like to saybeing called in to receive that
feedback, not calling out,creating that culture and
endless conversations, that it'snot a bad thing, right? We want
that feedback to grow anddevelop and how you create that
culture where people, you know,see it as a positive and are

(21:07):
appreciative of that engagementversus feeling ashamed or shut
down by it.

Kim Scott (21:14):
So for example, one of the CEOs who I coached I had
had the the habit as most peopledo, who aren't in the south in
the US of saying, you guys wereaddressing his team. And I said,
and he was very focused oncreating a better working
environment for women. And hehad asked me to come to him,

(21:37):
like one of the things he didwas he hired me as his sort of
bias buster, he wanted me heinvited me, he paid me actually,
to come in and tell him what hewas, you know, were the things
he could do big or small. And Isaid, one of the things that you
could do, which may seem small,but it's actually gonna be
really hard is to change yourvocabulary around saying, you

(21:57):
guys, and he didn't get it. Atfirst, we had a couple of
conversations about it. Hedidn't necessarily agree with
me, but he was open to beingchallenged. And finally, he's
like, Oh, you're right. I'minvisible. Ising all the women
in the room, I say yes. And, andso he really worked hard on

(22:17):
changing his vocabulary. And atfirst, he tried to change his
vocabulary before he told theteam that he was going to do it.
And then he realized it wouldactually be better if he told
the team and he asked the teamto flag him. When he did it. He
said, I won't learn this unlesspeople are interrupting it all
the time. And this is reallyimportant. Because these kinds

(22:40):
of these kinds of language, itis hard to change your
vocabulary. If we say it's easy,and people tend to give up too
soon. So for example, as I waswriting the book, I hired a bias
Buster who pointed out to methat I tend to use the word see
and enable this way when Ireally need to understand or

(23:01):
notice, and you'll probablycatch me a couple of times,
correcting myself in the rest ofthis talk. But I thought I had
really understood how importantit was I like I understood it
intellectually. I alsounderstood it emotionally
because one of the people who isediting the book is a historian
who's blind Zack shore, if youwrite anything, you should hire

(23:21):
Zach short, he's an incredible,and I really valued him and his
contribution. And the last thingI wanted to do was use language
that would harm him. So Ithought I had fixed this
problem. And then just before Iturn the book into the editor, I
did a quick search. And I hadn'tused misused slop, I'd use

(23:41):
sloppy site metaphors, 99 times,and 350 pages, it was incredible
to me. And so when you can, whenyou can share those things you
make it, it's not that you'renot holding yourself accountable
for bias you are. But you'realso acknowledging that this,

(24:04):
the fact that I am using thisbiased language does not make me
a terrible person, what wouldmake me a terrible person would
be to deny that I was doing anAR to insist on continuing to do
it. So I think that kind ofopenness and vulnerability,
especially around bias isimportant. And the other thing I
would say, as a leader aroundbias, don't choose one kind of

(24:27):
bias and focus on that don'tthink, Oh, I'm gonna solve the
gender problem. And then I'mgonna deal with, we keep all of
these biases work kind of in thesame way and when we can, when
we when we can address all ofthem at the same time. It
actually makes it easier tosolve them. We need to solve
them in solidarity. We can't.
One bias doesn't sort ofoperate, you know, in isolation

(24:50):
from all the other biases. Andit also then you're not singling
out one group ofunderrepresented people.

Leon Goren (25:01):
So if I wanted to kick this off in my
organization, right, I totallyget the role modeling is
absolutely imperative becauseother people look at you right
in terms of what you're doingand how you behave. But how do I
kick it off? Like, am I callinga meeting for a couple hours? am
I walking them through differentdefinitions? You know, one thing

(25:23):
in the book he talked aboutpeople are taking these
unconscious bias courses. Imean, as a first step, but you
are you really say, yeah, that'sa first step. But there's a lot
that's got to follow after that.
And you're talking about theinterrupters. So I don't care,
you're going into theseorganizations, you've been chief
people officer in a number ofdifferent organizations. What
would you say? use me as anexample. I mean, I want to

(25:46):
start, I want to start thisinitiative, I want to make a
difference. I want to create ajust workplace. What's the first
thing I need to do with mymanagement team?

Trier Bryant (25:56):
Yeah, another thing that, you know, we
recommend, and I think that thisthis next very tactical thing,
it's a, it's a little harder toimplement, but it's so important
and can be used in so manydifferent ways as far as like,
you know, really overcomingreplace in justices. But if we
move on to just prejudice in theframework, which is meaning it,

(26:17):
right, we talk about whatleaders need to do is create a
code of conduct. Now, it doesn'thave to be called a code of
conduct. But it really justneeds to be something that you
can hold people accountable to,in your organization with some
teeth in it, right? Becausepeople can believe whatever they
want to believe everyone hastheir own beliefs, but you can't
come into an organization and doand say whatever you want. So

(26:39):
leaders have to put thoseboundaries and and put those
expectations into place as faras you know, what people can do
and say, in your organization,and what that means and how you
know, they can't impose theirprejudice beliefs on others. So
for example, again, prejudice ismeaning it, I was in an
organization, where we wereinterviewing for another talent

(27:01):
acquisition leader. And at theend of the day, when we were
debriefing, it was very clearthat the top candidate that
everyone had the most positivefeedback on was most excited
about was a black woman who waswearing her hair natural the way
that I'm wearing it. In theinterview, after we did the
feedback, we've worked, we felt,you know, all the interviewers
were really excited that we weregoing to move forward with offer

(27:22):
with this candidate. However,the hiring manager said, Well,
I'm not quite sure we're goingto be able to go out to offer
with her. And, you know, I kindof wanted to really dig into
that, like, what did that mean?
Why not when all this feedbackwas positive. And this was an
organization that is known forhiring the best and brightest.
And the hiring manager said,we'll try there, we can't hire
her the way she wears her hairlike that she can't go in front

(27:45):
of the business, right? We can'tput her in front of the business
with her hair like that.

Unknown (27:51):
And I assure you, there was nothing
in this job description thatsaid anything about the way that
you have to wear your hair. Butthat hiring manager that was
prejudiced, because they meantit. And they believed it, that
they couldn't put a black womanwith her wearing her natural
hair in front of the business toget the job done. So what can be
in place to prevent thosesituations from happening. And

(28:11):
that's where our code of conductcomes in, right? Where you tell
people hate this, these are ourvalues, this is how we're going
to operate. This is how we'regoing to make hiring decisions
and holding people accountableto that. And so but as an
upstander, or the person who mayhave been harmed by that, which
was the candidate who wasn't inthe room, right? That's where we
tell folks to use an ifstatement. And so when it

(28:34):
statement, right focuses on theprejudice, where an i statement
with bias, it invites someonein, right? So if someone says
like, Hey, I don't think youknow, it, like Kim tells a great
story about how someone calledher a pretty girl once. And she
said, Hey, I don't think that Iwill ever take you seriously or
work in a company, if you callme pretty girl, right? So it's

(28:56):
inviting that person and to makeit personal of how it makes them
feel. But within its statement,you don't want to invite them in
because they believe what theybelieve. Right? They have their
data, you have your information.
So you want to focus on theprejudice to say like, it is not
within our code of conduct todiscriminate against someone
because of how they wear theirhair. It is illegal not to hire

(29:18):
someone which in the state ofCalifornia and other states in
the US, Marie Christine, I amloving your facial expression
suits helping more fantastic,right. So it is illegal for you
know, you have to make a hiringdecision because someone wears
their their hair.

Trier Bryant (29:34):
So using it statement, but we really you
have to have a a code ofconduct. I'll give you a quick
example of a code of conduct atone of our previous companies.
They didn't even have values,right. So let's just start
there. Let's just talk aboutwhat are your company values?
Well, so we created six values,and I think that value should be
very short. So these values, nota single value was over three

(29:56):
words, six values, veryimportant. How Under each value,
there was three restatements,and the we statements were how
you bring that value to life andhow we expected people to
behave. So if the value waspeople first, which was the
number one value People First,we respect each other, and this

(30:19):
organization and communicatewith respect, that's how we put
people first, right? What arethe restatements that embody
that value that let people knowhow you behave and engage within
an organization?

Kim Scott (30:31):
So and I think so.
So, to answer your question,Leon, what what triora saying
is, as a leader, you've got to,first off, identify the
difference between bias andprejudice. With bias, the first
thing you want to do is get yourteam to write the words that
they're going to use tointerruptive. So you, we're not
going to give you the wordsyou've got, and you shouldn't

(30:51):
give your team the words, getthem to give you the words, are
you gonna say bias alert? Areyou gonna say, or are they gonna
say something else, but they'vegot to say something, then with
prejudice as the leader, youneed to write a code of conduct.
And then you need to get yourteam to edit that code of
conduct. And remember, theeditor is the boss, not the
writer, this is something Iacutely aware of. So you've got

(31:14):
to make sure that you're allgetting all on the same page
about where that line is betweenone person's freedom to believe
whatever they want, and anotherperson's freedom not to have
that belief imposed upon them.
And it's easy to say that it isreally hard to write a code of
conduct, so spend some time onit. And then I would say, the

(31:34):
third thing you need to do as aleader is to create consequences
for bullying. So bullying isjust being mean. So at one
point, I was the CEO and founderof my company, co founder of a
different company, this wouldnever happen to tree air and
most company, but I was I waswhen I was the CEO wasn't a very

(31:54):
good one in this case. So sobecause I had not created
consequences for Boeing. Sothere was the guy working for me
also, I didn't expect myself tobe bullied as the CEO. That was
incorrect. So there's this guyworking for me, and he's not
doing a very good job, I'mgiving him some feedback. And I
asked him towards the end of theconversation, as I tried to

(32:17):
always do, what could I do, orstop doing that would help you
improve this project. And heleans in, and he says, The
problem here is you are the mostaggressive woman I ever met. And
I'm like, gosh, you know, we'rein a very aggressive industry,
if I'm the most aggressive womanyou ever met, I'm not even in
the top 100 most aggressive men,and part of your job is dealing

(32:40):
with all these aggressivepeople. So your problem is
clearly not my aggression, yourproblem is my gender. And in my
case, that's not going tochange. And so so this was, you
know, was I was a little bittaken aback, but in this case, I
responded as though I were theperson harmed I as the person
who harmed I have a right tochoose to respond or not to

(33:02):
respond. And I didn't, I didn'treally say much to him. I didn't
push back, I didn't use that newstatement that Tria was talking
about, I didn't say, you cannottalk to me like that, which
would have been a reasonableresponse as the person harmed.
And then as the leader, what Ishould have added is and if you
talk to the other women in thiscompany, and that way, you will

(33:26):
get a poor performance rating.
And if you if you can't changeyour behavior, you're gonna get
fired. Like we're, it's notacceptable to talk to people.
Yep. And, and I didn't do that.
And of course, the problem withbullying is that if you don't
create consequences,conversational consequences, but
also career commerceconsequences, or compensation

(33:49):
consequences, then it's going toescalate Not only is it gonna
continue, it'll get worse. Andindeed, in this case, it did get
worse fast forward a couple ofmonths. We're having our company
all hands he's sitting over atable the garbage can was
underneath him, a woman on theteam comes up to him with a with
a paper plate and a pizza cross,clearly needing to throw her

(34:12):
pizza crust away. And she says Ineed and it was obviously when
she needed the garbage can andhe spreads his legs and he's
like to get in between my legs.
And, and and so it got worse.
You know, he wouldn't have saidthat to me, but I was standing
right there. And he feltcomfortable to say something
like that or on on the team infront of me because I had not

(34:33):
created consequences forbullying. So can I offer Leon as
a summary slide?

Unknown (34:42):
Sure.

Kim Scott (34:43):
I love I love the visuals. So so just to sort of
sum it up, distinguish as aleader you need to distinguish
between bias, prejudice andbullying, and you need to create
bias interrupters that make itsafe for people harmed by bias
and also for upstanders, notjust safe but expected for

(35:06):
people to interrupt bias withtheir eyes statement, you need
to create a code of conduct, youneed to write and have your team
edit code of conduct. And thatmakes it much more clear what
what you're appealing to withyour Ed statement, it is a
violation of our code ofconduct, not to hire the most

(35:29):
qualified woman because of herhair. You know, and there's also
like, the common sense, or it isridiculous not to hire the most
qualified person because of ourhair. But but sometimes what is
common sense is not common isUncommon Sense. And so you need
to codify it in a code ofconduct. And you also need to

(35:49):
create consequences forbullying. So I would say these
are the three things you all asleaders can do to really start
to change your culture.

Trier Bryant (36:01):
And I want to acknowledge the on that like, as
a leader, as a chief peopleofficer, for me, where I failed
in preventing was bullying,bullying was the hardest. And,
Jennifer, to your point, yes,not only does there need to be
consequences, but thoseconsequences need to be enforced
top down. Absolutely. And whybullying is hard, especially in

(36:24):
some of the smallerorganizations is sometimes you
know, a lot of organizations,you have the brilliant jerk. And
it's hard to hold consequencesagainst the person that might
end have them end in leaving theorganization when like, you
can't get your job done withoutthat one person, right. And
there's this pressure of justtrying to make excuses. Or maybe

(36:45):
it's so we have a directculture, that's just how we
communicate. But they're beingmean, they're both they're
bullying, and they're causing alot of harm, and being
destructive in yourorganization. And so, you know,
when I read the book, and Ireflected on this, this was the
area where it was like, Wow,there were so many missed
opportunities where I didn'toffer and enforce the right
consequences. And then also someorganizations as leaders, we do

(37:08):
a really good job looking downat the organization and creating
consequences. But we need tohave the conversation as well as
what happens across all theseworkplace in justices. When it's
happening at the very top level.
What happens when your CEO isexhibiting prejudice, what
happens when your board membersare bullying, and so what
happens, you know, when thosesituations occur to have those

(37:29):
conversations beforehand, so weknow how to intervene, and to
hold people accountable at thosehighest levels as well.

Leon Goren (37:38):
It's funny as you as you guys are. I say guys,
where's the purple flag. But I'mactually self reflecting about,
you know, 20 years ago, I workin a professional service firm.
And I remember down the hall, apartner, and there are many
partners in this firm, it's, I'mnot going to name the firm. But

(37:59):
all he would do would be yellingat people bullying them. It was
unbelievable. And you'd sitthere and I'm in my 20s at the
time, and you'd be like, this isinsane. But you'd never say a
word. And it's a partner, right?
And I'm sure this still goes on.
In many organizations whereyou're not even at the
partnership level, you're in amanager level. What do you do in

(38:21):
that situation? Like the CEOsnever, you know, it's a large
organizes CEO can be in Toronto,you're in Los Angeles, wherever
you are. And it's pretty scary.
Like even I'm a guy, I'm goingto address this guy. I didn't, I
never would do that. I wouldnever stand up to this
individual. I get yelled at aswell. Any. It's just something
that just rang in my head, asyou were talking there. Twitter,

(38:43):
what would you do in a situationlike that?

Trier Bryant (38:48):
Yeah, so we talked about a couple of different
things. But one, as a chiefpeople officer, my perspective
is please escalate that andshare that with your manager or
the person you report to or justgo directly to your HR people
team. Because it's reallydifficult to hold people
accountable when we don't knowwhat's going on. Right? And so

(39:09):
allow your people on HR teams,hopefully they're good people in
HR teams to do their work and tohandle those those situations.
Right. But what are the thingsthat you can do beforehand to
make that conversation easier,right document, document those
things that you have a writtendown document, talking to other
people in building solidarity?
Excuse me, so talking otherpeople saying, I had this

(39:32):
interaction with this person,have you had that interaction
with the person and if there'strends and there's other folks,
right, then building thatsolidarity, that there's a real
issue here, right, and that theycan't say, Well, this is a one
off or it's a you know,individual situation. So there's
things that you can do that canmake that better. But the other
thing is also is that, you know,in the military, we take a class

(39:53):
on hostile, working with hostileemployees and having hostile
communication One of the thingsthat they teach us when we're
leading our troops is that whensomeone is angry, and they're
kind of off not saying this isalways a situation of having a
personal conversation with them,because oftentimes, especially
in this climate right now, witheverything going on, having the
humanity and empathy that like,we don't know, everyone's

(40:18):
journey, we don't knoweverything that's, you know,
going on. And so I've had toconfront some bullies in our
organization. And I'll juststart with, you know, what,

Unknown (40:28):
we need to have a conversation about work. But
let's put that aside real quick.
Right? And let's just talk abouthow are you doing? still use
Damon? Right, putting it back onthem? How are you doing? What's
going on with you? Are you okay?
I see you engaging with peopleon my team in a really
inappropriate way that you know,is not appropriate at this
company, that doesn't make youlook good, that is not conducive

(40:49):
to getting things done. Sowhat's going on with you, and
then I can't tell you how manytimes that that is just an
opening for people to be like,I'm going through a divorce. And
I'm really stressed out. Mydaughter is struggling with
bulimia, and we don't know howto help her at school, right.
And then that's where I, as apeople leader think it is my

(41:10):
responsibility to say like, thisis from the military to is that
when people are their best athome, they're going to be even
better at work. So whatresources can we provide? Or do
you need to take some space andtime so that you can deal with
that so that you can't can comeand be, you know, your best
version of self at work?
That's true. That's, that'sgreat.

Kim Scott (41:30):
Yeah, I think another thing that you can do, as a
leader, you couldn't have donethis as the, you know, as the
sort of new employee facing thepartner. But as a leader, one of
the most important things youcan do to prevent bullying on
your in your organization is tocreate checks and balances,

(41:51):
because there's a lot ofresearch that shows the more
power a person has, the morelikely they are to engage in
bullying, like the there's aworkplace study that that shows
that 65% of bullying happens topdown, not that many employees
bully, they're their bosses,unless you're the

(42:11):
underrepresented leader, thenyou are more likely to get
bullied actually. And so one ofthe one of the most one of the
best things that Google did toto make sure that nobody had to
pay the asshole tax was theymade it really easy for people
to leave a team, if they had aboss they didn't like they could
easily that it was Oh, it wasacceptable to go and talk to

(42:35):
other people and just to switchteams, and your boss didn't have
to give you any permission. Andand that really took a lot of
that was a significant check andbalance on on on leaders, I
would say as a CEO and founderone of the things that I one of
the big mistakes I made was, asI started these companies, I

(42:58):
used to focus on making sure Ihad control making sure there
were no checks and balances onme. And and that was a big
mistake because then I becamethe bully actually. And and like
in the in the in the story Itold the woman who were the guy

(43:18):
was like you want to get betweenmy legs, she wound up suing the
organization for creating ahostile work environment. And
the last thing I intended to dobelieve me was to create a
hostile work environment forwomen. But she was correct. I
had done it. And one of thethings this is shameful. And I
want you all to avoid makingthis mistake, one of the things

(43:40):
that I did in response was topay her off and make her sign an
NDA. That is a that is so wrong.
That is so wrong. What I did wasreally wrong because one of the
checks and balances that we havein the society that we should
have it clearly doesn't alwayswork is our legal system. So an
employee ought to be able to getthat's why forced arbitration

(44:01):
and this the way that we abusedin the 80s and NDA should be
about trade secrets. It shouldnot be about the shift that
happens to you at work. I hopeI'm allowed to curse on this New
Year fine.

Leon Goren (44:16):
Well said Actually, I totally agree. I have a
question and it's probably morerelevant to the Canadian state
and as Americans but we're stillhere in lockdown in Ontario just
so you know six week lockdownremoves from their house. But a
lot of the policies andconversations that we're having
what do you do like zoom haschanged the world a little bit

(44:39):
right? A lot of areas I heardthe bully screaming and down the
hall so to 20 other people todayyou can be on a zoom calm, be
screamed at nobody hearsanything and it could be
abusive, right? It's I'mwondering, are you seeing that?
are either of you seeing thatand then how are corporations
watching for it and dealing with

Unknown (45:03):
There's actually data I'm going to talk
about right now, Kim to project.
Great.

Leon Goren (45:09):
Anyway, that's not my question. Somebody asked that
question.

Unknown (45:13):
It's a good question.
So project include actually hasdata on this, where it
demonstrates that as we've goneto these remote work
environments, because because somuch communication is happening
in these one on one and chat andtext in these private ways that
are not able, you can't overhearthem, or or, you know, it's not

(45:37):
like, it's not like platformswhere everybody sees what
everybody else writes thatthere's a lot more bullying
going on, and people people areunderrepresented along a lot in
the report does a really goodjob examining intersectionality.
And the more intersections youstay on that the word the worst

(46:02):
situation you're in right now.
It's it's incredible tree. Areyou have other thoughts on it?
It's a really powerful report.
And one of the reasons why I wasso surprised by it, and I think
most people would be is that theheadline of the report is that
the remote work culture that noteveryone is accustomed to that

(46:22):
we've all been kind of pushedinto, because of COVID is
exacerbating harm,significantly. And you would
think that that wouldn't be thecase, because we're not
physically in the same spaces.
And you know, you're not doinglunch with folks, there's less
interactions. And so what thisalso means, though, is that if
harm is being exacerbated inthis remote culture, and now

(46:44):
some organizations, maybe inCanada, but in the US are
starting to talk about comingback, like some organizations
have given their return dates ofreopening their offices. What
does that mean, if you will,coming back into the workplace,
in specifically in the US withso many tense conversations and

(47:06):
things going on, we've got blacklives matter, and it will be the
first time that people will beface to face working with
colleagues with everythingthat's going on, stop Asian hate
all of that, that's going like,ah, just a lot, right? And then
the to kind of underrepresentedgroups and organizations that I
think are often forgotten aboutthat, I think, you know, we have

(47:28):
to just really be payingattention to our one caregivers
and parents, and to the otherone is an underrepresented group
in your organization. Now, ouremployees who have onboard and
joined your company and COVIDremotely, right, which is a very
different experience, thinkingabout what is the culture of
your company, and how have theybeen able to experience that or

(47:50):
observe that remotely, and thenwhat happens coming back into
the office. So just being keenlyaware of this. But what is great
about the report that I reallyencourage not only you all to
dig into as leaders, but toshare with your teams is that
not only gives you some reallygreat data, but then at the end,
it gives you some very tacticalthings of what to do. And so we
are we are huge fans of Ellenhow over at project include. And

(48:13):
again, we love resources thathelp leaders get very tactical,
on how to be thinking aboutthis, and not only continuing to
be remote, but also when you'recoming back into the workplace.

Leon Goren (48:23):
Maybe you can share the link to that. So in the
chat, so

Kim Scott (48:30):
the link is in the chat, and we'll put it maybe
Liana can put it in the shownotes as well, it really I can't
recommend this report highlyenough. The the other the one
simple thing that I've beenencouraging people to do is to
start to track what percentageof time you are speaking in a
meeting. And one of the one ofthose sort of hidden forms of

(48:54):
bullying that I think is muchworse in, in remote work is that
what I call the bloviating bsare in a meeting. So this is the
person on the team who is notbetter informed than anyone
else. And but is is is talkingthree times more than anyone

(49:18):
else. And this hurtscollaboration enormously.
There's a lot of research thatshows that teams on which
everybody speaks roughly thesame amount of time performed
better. And I By the way, andGuilty as charged, I am
definitely take up more than myfair share of airtime. So so I'm

(49:39):
not trying to point fingers atpeople but I've been really
trying to be aware of whatpercentage of time I'm speaking
on a call and not and there'sactually tools that will help
you track this. None of them aregreat. I've been trying to
persuade the folks at zoom tobuild it in and I think it would
be a mistake for it to be a likea public Like dashboard, because

(50:01):
then it would be public shaming.
But for everyone to get aprivate report of this this
meeting have eight people in itand you spoke 40% of the time.

Leon Goren (50:12):
Yeah, no, that's great. Thank you, Kim. There are
a couple of questions. I'd liketo come to my scrolling here.
Brian, are you on the callstill? Can you come off you,
Brian Holland, or Kelly will tryand get you off. And I can have
you ask that question. You askedit to everyone in the chat.

Unknown (50:30):
I can just reach out here you are.

Leon Goren (50:33):
There you go. Brian, it's always nice to hear the
individual. Go ahead, Brian. Allright. It's, it's Byron,
actually. Believe me, I've beencalled Brian my whole life.

Q&A from Audience (50:47):
And Kim, love your previous book, big fan of
it. And, and certainly, a lot ofthe elements in it are in our
company as a result of myquestion. And it's one of the I
also just read Reed Hastingsbook, who certainly seems
informed by radical candor. AndI'm wondering that challenge

(51:08):
between the the brilliant jerkwho just says, I'm being really,
really candid with you.

Leon Goren (51:14):
And radical candor, and one person's brilliant jerk
is another person's just beingreally candid. And how do you
really start to unpack what'sreasonable? and challenge the
brilliant jerk? I just wonder ifyou could unpack that a little
more for us?

Kim Scott (51:31):
Yeah, it's a really important question. It's
actually why I wrote a secondedition of radical candor,
because so many people, I wouldbe working with the team. And
someone that would charge into ameeting and say, in the spirit
of radical candor, and then theywould proceed to act like what I
consider to be a garden varietyjerk. And that is not the spirit
of radical candor. That's thespirit of obnoxious aggression.

(51:53):
And so one of the things that Iwant to sort of reiterate is
that radical candor getsmeasured, not at the speaker's
mouth, but at the listeners ear,and that is an ablest metaphor,
I'm going to wave a purple flag,I'm gonna think of a better way
to say that. But it is the otherperson gets to decide not you

(52:15):
how it's landing for them. Andand I think each of us when
we're speaking to others, whenwe're giving radical candor, we
need to learn how to notice theimpact that our words are having
on others. And to know whetherwe need that means we need to go
up on care personally, or overon challenge directly. So if the
person seems sad or mad, youneed to move up on the care

(52:38):
personally dimension of radicalcandor. Whereas if the person is
just not hearing is notunderstanding what you're
saying, then you need to moveout on challenge directly. And
so I think there are some peoplewho in the face of an emotional
response from someone else willwill actually double down and go

(52:58):
further out on challengedirectly, whereas what they need
to do is pause and try tounderstand a better way to say
what they're saying so that theother person can understand what
they're saying, it is it is ourjob when we are speaking to be
understood. And and when we arelistening, it is our job to
understand x. And therefore youif both the listener and the

(53:22):
speaker take 80% responsibilitymaybe will communicate okay. But
I think usually when person whenpeople say, I was just being
candid, and the other person isin tears, they're not being
candid. They're being a jerk,

Trier Bryant (53:35):
and environment. I think the other part that people
miss also is that radicalcandor, when we're on their axes
of like, challenging directlyand caring personally, radical
candor is and this is how I giveradical candor. And I give it
the same way to everyone.
Radical candor is unique to theperson that you're giving
feedback. So it's going to lookdifferent every time. And I

(53:56):
think that's where some folksMiss, have What does caring
personally mean to Kevin, whatdoes caring personally mean to
Deb, what does caring personallymean to Byron, and it could be
very different things. Andthat's where you really need to
understand. And then you can,you know, give that direct
feedback, but the caringpersonally is going to be
different for different folks. Iremember, I had the type of

(54:19):
relationship with my teams wherewe have a lot of fun, we joke or
super sarcastic. And I wasgetting feedback externally at a
company that was at tree are somean to her team, the way she
talks to her team, right? Like Iwould be sick. And it was a very
open floor plan, you know, intech, and I would just be like,

(54:39):
why am I allowed to go into thissession and I don't have my data
for the leaders like I guessI'll just go in and not be able
to get anything done. Andthey're like, I know I suck at
my job tree or I'm going to getinto like my, like, sarcastic
funny, whatever, but and it'slike, I need it. Now. I'm about
to go into the meeting. And thenthey're like, Yeah, got it. And
someone would overhear this andsay, chair like you're So mean
to your team this and that. Butthat was that was radical candor

(55:02):
on our team. And that was okay.
And when I had to remind thatperson is like, I don't give you
radical candor like that,because I know you wouldn't be
able to receive it in that way.
It's different, right? And sopeople have to understand that
it's different in differentways. And I really encourage
folks to take in people'sintersections, right, all the
intersections that they standout when you're thinking about
caring personally, because itmeans different things to

(55:24):
different folks.

Leon Goren (55:28):
That's great. Thank you. Chair. I have one other
question. And this questionactually arises, I sit in these
advisory boards, I listened tosome of the issues and
opportunities that they'rethey're dealing with. And I
mean, in the book, you talkabout committees around hiring,
compensation, not doingindividual performance reviews,

(55:50):
right one on ones. And, andit's, it's a sensitive issue,
because there's a lot of a lotof nervous people out there to
be quite frank about sittingdown having a performance
review. And having it latercancelled them. They said
something incorrectly or they,they gave feedback, although it

(56:11):
may be right. Or, actually,let's let's pull back a little
bit, maybe it's, they'reactually not giving the right
feedback, because they'rescared. Any advice to those
leaders? This is I think thishas become a big is going to be
a big issue this year, as peoplestart to go through that
feedback process. Fear, whatwould you be suggesting within

(56:34):
an organization today?

Trier Bryant (56:36):
I know that cam has thoughts on this and
something that's really helpful,but one thing that I will say is
that there's a couple of ourclients and organizations that
actually cancelled performancereviews for 2020. And I think
that was but like, the messagingthat they put around that to
say, like, we're not doingperformance reviews, they have
people do self reflections onhow they felt like their work

(56:59):
was and to have a conversationwith their manager, but they got
they didn't do their typicalperformance review, because of
everything that happened in2012. Quite frankly, did we
really expect anyone to beexceeding expectations and doing
people's best work, right? No.
And so it took that pressure offof people just to be honest. And
then because performance reviewsare tied to their bonuses, they
basically said, everyone's gonnaget the same percentage of their

(57:19):
bonus, right? And then we'll seewhat happens in 2021. I think
showing up with empathy, butalso finding ways to do that
equitably, is where, you know,we really just need to be
thinking about how do we takecare of our people and just
being honest about where folksare right now?

Kim Scott (57:38):
Yeah, I think in terms of sort of impromptu
feedback, it's in whistlingVivaldi, Claude Steele writes
about being the only the onlyblack PhD in his psychology
department, and he talks abouthow crucial it was to get really
good feedback from his academicadvisor on his work, he said,

(57:59):
that was the thing that helpedhim get through that very
difficult experience and toexcel in his career. And he
said, he explained that veryoften the tragedy is that people
are less likely to give thatkind of good feedback to people
on their team who areunderrepresented, because

(58:20):
they're, they're afraid of beingcalled racist, or sexist, or,
or, or whatnot. And that is likeit is your job as a leader to
give everyone Equal Opportunityfeedback. At the same time, I
want to acknowledge the concernthat is there that people in
fact, around this book, peopleoften don't send me comments

(58:41):
because they're afraid of beinga promise, I'm not gonna, I'm
not going to publish, you cansay whatever you want to me, and
I will not. I mean, we it has tobe, it has to be safe to talk to
one another. And, and so, forexample, a friend of mine, a
white man who works at a bigtech company said he was in a

(59:02):
meeting, and, and a woman on theteam in marketing was calling
her campaign Rolling Thunder.
And he knew that she wouldn'thave chosen that analogy if she
had known the history of RollingThunder, but he was afraid to
tell her the history of RollingThunder because he didn't want
to be accused of mansplaining orsomething. And it was tragic to

(59:22):
me because I know her and I knowshe would have wanted and she
wouldn't have accused him ofmansplaining and so I think part
of it is that especially whenwe're a leader in an
organization or when we are overrepresented along some dimension
or another, it is we have to wehave to step up and we have to

(59:42):
say you know it is it is my jobto give this feedback and I'm
going to do it and and I'm gonnaovercome the fear because
whatever you whatever fear youhave as a leader, I promise you
the the concerns of youremployees who are underrated
Presented are much, much larger.

Unknown (01:00:02):
It's a call of what Alan Kay said, we need to coach
managers to give effectiveperformance feedback. Not only
is a muscle like everythingelse, and you need to give your
employees and leaders, theresources and the training to
not only give feedback, but toaction feedback. And that's 360
because we shouldn't just bewaiting for performance reviews
for feedback. We should beconstantly provide be providing

(01:00:25):
our talent, opportunities todevelop throughout the year.

Leon Goren (01:00:32):
Thank you so much.
Both Kim. Three, are we runningout of time? I know now the
questions are flooding in andI'm like, Oh my god, we're up to
the hour. I want to thank youvery much. I'd like to thank
everyone in the audience forjoining us today and really
opening up your minds and tryingto really learn and and listen
to great experts really on this.

(01:00:53):
Kim, thank you so much for thebook. Just work I urge you all
if you do have a chance, pick upthe book, read the book. It's
enlightening. And you know,there's always more to learn
about this stuff. So thank youso much again, both here in
Canada for joining us today.

Unknown (01:01:09):
Thank all of you for joining us. And thank you Leon
for having us and keep in touchwe can you can roll your own
read the book and roll your ownor you can reach out and triage
and I will help you roll theideas out.

Leon Goren (01:01:22):
That's great. So if you're interested in our the way
forward live webcast, pleasevisit us at po dash leadership
comm you'll find a number ofrecorded past webcasts that have
included Professor RosabethCantor, Professor Michael beer,
both from Harvard Joe Jackman,Harry Kramer, Dr. Greg wells,
Robert chestnut, we talked aboutCode of Conduct within the
organization, Dr. Jason sowk,the list goes on. And we've got

(01:01:46):
a number of coming up in the inthe coming months as well. So
stay tuned. Until we meet again,I'd like to wish you all a
fantastic day. Have a wonderfulend of the month and think
positive and think about makingsome changes in your
organization and thinking aboutthings differently. Thanks
again. Take care everyone.

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