'Winning On Purpose' with Fred Reichheld, Founder of NPS

We are very excited to have Fred Reichheld, the creator of the Net Promoter system of management and the founder of Bain & Company’s Loyalty practice, as our special guest on The Way Forward podcast series. Fred is known for “putting loyalty economics on the map” and is a trusted expert in customer loyalty. 

Two thirds of the Fortune 1000 now use Net Promoter Score (NPS), the world’s leading customer success and loyalty framework. Companies that achieve the highest NPS in their industry consistently beat the stock market over the past decade, with annual returns of 26%+, and outperform the vast majority of private equity funds. The very best return across the universe of funds and ETFs tracked by Morningstar barely reached 19% over the decade.

The issue at hand is that a July 2021 Bain & Co. survey of business executives revealed that only 10% of business leaders believe the primary purpose of their company is to enrich the lives of their customers. 90% of today’s executives dismiss the unbeatable advantages of a customer-centered purpose, which is sine qua non of loyalty leadership.

In his latest book, Winning on Purpose, Fred Reichheld shows why all businesses should make enriching the lives of customers their primary purpose. It’s the best way to ensure sustainable growth, happily fulfilled employees, and robust investor returns. He unveils Net Promoter 3.0 – updated for our current business and social environment and introduces Bain’s latest invention, Earned Growth, which provides an accounting-based twin for Net Promoter Score.

Episode Transcript

Leon Goren (00:00):
Hi, I'm Leon Goren, president of PEO leadership, a
peer to peer leadership advisoryfirm. We're an amazing community
of CEOs, presidents and seniorexecutives. Ask yourself, are
you learning as fast as theworld is changing? It's time for
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(00:23):
out of this COVID crisis abetter leader and your
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PEO-leadership.com. Specialthanks to Vaughan Metropolitan
Center for helping us bring youtoday's PEO leadership's way
forward podcast. Well, first ofall, hi. For those that don't
know me, I'm Leon Goren. I'm theCEO of PEO leadership. And

(00:44):
welcome to our wayforward livewebcast today. I'm looking at
the name- so a big welcome tothose that are joining us for
the first time. And then I see awhole bunch of names and people
that I recognize. So welcomeback. And I know we get to see
it throughout the year to a lotof these members. So thank you
for joining us today. So I'dlike to kick off our agenda with

(01:08):
with our agenda this morning.
And so three things we're goingto do. One is going to spend a
couple of minutes, I'll givesome background, especially
those who are joining us for thefirst time or what is PEO
leadership? What do we do? Whydo we do it? I'll introduce our
esteemed guest, Fred Reichheld.
And then third, we'll jump intoour fireside chat. And maybe

(01:30):
Fred and I'll spend about 30minutes, I have a number of
questions for Fred and thendefinitely open it up to
everyone in the room here forq&a. And I'd ask that you post
your questions in that probablyin the questions at q&a is
probably the best place to postit, although sometimes people
put it in the chat. And we'lljust keep our eyes open for the

(01:50):
for the questions and call youout and read your question. So
for for those joining us for thefirst time. And you know, I
thought it started maybe explainto you what is it that we do and
really the essence and purposeof our organization. And so if
you sit back, it's really whatwe're doing is trying to enable
leaders and that's businessleaders, whether you're for

(02:13):
profit, not for profit, realizetheir personal professional, and
organization growth objectives.
And so the personal professionalelements are pretty important
pieces. It's very much aholistic approach. The members
who join us today, are businessleaders, and they join us for
their business. But in reality,what I really worry about is the
whole life of that leader. Soit's just its business, its

(02:35):
wealth, its health, its family,its career. And as you can
imagine if any one of thosethings go south, it ultimately
affects your business andaffects your, your leadership
capabilities. So our idea is howdo we get people? How do we help
people realize those differentelements in their lives? The way
we delivered, it's, it's kind ofI describe it as a three legged

(02:56):
stool. The first leg is sittingwith our leaders in our members
and trying to understand whatsuccess looks like. So if it's
December 31 2023, have youdefine what you want to
accomplish, actually what youhave accomplished because we're
sending in the future, in thosesegments in business and health
and well, in career and family.

(03:17):
And you do it with an advisorwho's seasoned our advisors, we
get a chance to take a look someof on p&g, I've been involved in
p&g, one ran Honeywell, inCanada, others and run
entrepreneurial organization andbuild them up from the ground
up. They're phenomenalindividuals and little ones that
are sort of building thatroadmap with you, the second leg
of the stool, well, that's ashared Advisory Board, that's

(03:38):
where you get a chance to join agroup of peers meet on a regular
monthly basis, close the door,be vulnerable and have
opportunities to challenge eachother as you sort of work out
those issues and opportunitiesbefore you. And it's an
important piece in terms ofleveraging the wisdom of that
group to help you get from pointA to point B. And then the third

(03:59):
piece is the community as awhole. So if you can create a
community that is giving andwilling to help each other and
make a difference, it's notabout just getting from A to B,
it's actually can I acceleratecan we accelerate accelerated
from A to B. So and that's whenI'm very probably the most proud
of that PEO leadership, we havean unbelievable given community.

(04:19):
So you know, if you've run intoobstacles or challenges in your
business, that your advisorcan't solve that yet, you know,
that your advisory board givesyou some advice. There's always
someone in the community thatcan help you out. And that's
really where we are today. Andthis is bringing Fred here and
talk leadership. And that's kindof the community element. And,
and I would tell you in today'sworld, an organization like

(04:41):
ourselves was always important.
But today, it's probably evenmore important when you have
volatility uncertainty, youdon't know what's coming out
yet. COVID sort of proved thatto us to be able to step outside
of your organization. It's justit's absolutely huge and
imperative for a leader today.
So anyway, that gives you alittle bit background check us
out on At PEO-leadership.com,there's an eight week trial

(05:03):
program. There's an event inJune that you're more than
willing to join us. And let'sget going. So I'd like to
introduce Fred here. So FredReichheld is the creator of the
Net Promoter system ofmanagement, the founder of Bain
and company's loyalty practice,and the author of five books,
including The New York Timesbestseller, The Ultimate

(05:25):
Question 2.0. And, of course,his latest book published in
2021. Winning on purpose, theunbeatable strategy of loving
customers. He is currently afellow and Senior Advisor
partner at Bain, where he hasworked since 1977. For it's a
frequent speaker at majorbusiness forums, and his work on
customer loyalty has been widelycovered in the Wall Street
Journal, New York TimesFinancial Times fortune

(05:47):
Businessweek. And the Economist.
He's made 15 contributions, theHarvard Business Review and in
2012 became one of the originalLinkedIn influencers, an
invitation only group ofcorporate leaders and public
figures, who are thought leadersin their respective fields. In
2003, consulting Magazine namedFred is one of the world's 25
Most Influential consultants.

(06:09):
And according to The New YorkTimes, threat put loyalty
economics on the map. TheEconomist, first whom is a high
priest of loyalty and JohnDonahoe, who I picked up pulled
out here about the he's the CEOof Nike refers to as the
godfather of loyalty and hislatest book. So right Kellogg,
graduate from Harvard College,1970, excuse me, 1974 and
Harvard Business School, his MBAin 1978. Preferred it's great to

(06:33):
have you with us here today.
Thank you. So I thought I kickit off and ask you why this
book. Now. You've gotten fivebow, this your fifth book under
your belt, you've been writingabout customer loyalty for so
many years, what spurred you onto drive to write this one?

Fred Reichheld (06:54):
Well, when we created the Net Promoter system,
we made it an open sourcemovement, so that more people
could adopt and adapt it andimprove it, tune it to their
needs innovate. And there's justbeen a wonderful uptake. Fortune
magazine had an article lastyear that said, two thirds or

(07:14):
more of the large companies inthe world now use net promoter.
The problem has been that someof the so called innovations and
practices, I think, are actuallycounter to the core purpose that
underlies net promoter. And sothe reason for the book was to

(07:35):
try and get people to understandthe core principles more
clearly. And what I consider thetruly the best practices and to
get the movement back on theright track, people are doing
things like Link survey scoresto frontline bonuses and
reporting scores that they'vecreated and collected with some

(07:57):
unspecified process, you know,reporting those to their
investors or the public. Theseare just silly practices that
are destroying that promoterand, and I want to get it fixed.

Leon Goren (08:08):
That's great. Now you, you, I mean, godfather of
customer loyalty, you've beendoing this for so many years.
Have you seen it change, likethe mindset of leaders today
versus 30 years ago has come along way. And how organizations
look at this?

Fred Reichheld (08:26):
Not as far as I thought it would with net
promoter, it pinging out intothe universe, it's almost as if
it's a new electromagnetic wavewavelength that that makes this
forces driving business moremore clear. And, and as we've
done millions of these pings,what you find out is the only

(08:50):
way to grow a sustain asustainable, profitable business
is to treat customers so theycome back from one bring their
friends. And and that soundssimple. But accounting doesn't
measure that GAAP accountingjust ignores which customers are
giving or which revenues andwhich ones are coming back and

(09:11):
which ones are defecting and,and which ones are referrals,
which ones are bought throughsales, pitches and discounts and
so forth. So this customercentered worldview, that net
promoter is encouraging, andindent and illustrating, you
know, illuminating, is, I thinkthis you know, 90% of the

(09:33):
business world still doesn't getit.

Leon Goren (09:36):
That's interesting, after so many years, and I know
you refer you compare it to alittle bit of a gap side, I
always think I'm an account mybackground, I was seeing a gap.
It's the historical financialstatements, right? It's, it's
not we have management systemsand accounting systems that look
at right now what's happeningand then when I looked at read
your book around the earnedgrowth piece and looked at the

(09:57):
customers and the Net PromoterScore It's it's historical, but
it's forward thinking in termsof

Fred Reichheld (10:08):
if it's true, it is it is predictive. You know,
I, as I explained in the bookand chapter five, I invest in
every company I find who has thehighest net promoter score in
its industry, you know, not selfreported scores, not belonging
scores, wishful thinking scoresthat but really scientifically

(10:28):
rigorous double blind, beincaliber insights and, and those
companies that total shareholderreturn for me has more than
tripled the stock market overthe last decade. And you hear,
you know, the people in thefinancial business are always
claiming crazy returns, just togive you a sense, tripling the

(10:49):
market is something that nomutual fund or ETF accomplished
in the last decade. So I havegone up into the stratosphere,
with this simple idea of themarket is undervaluing the power
of firms that are generatingcustomers who come back from war
and bring their friends. And asthat plays through time, and the

(11:12):
Cash Generation and growth isdemonstrated through accounting,
which is backward, you know,it's current and backward
looking. It you know, it's beena crushing success for me
personally. But it's also it'sevidence, the world doesn't get
it yet. The world reallydoesn't. They think that there
are shortcuts to prosperity thatdon't put customers first.

Leon Goren (11:37):
I urge everyone to get it read the book, and we'll
come back to that earned growthmodel. Maybe you can explain it
a little bit. I thought it wasfascinating. And I the charts
that you showed wereunbelievable. On the on some of
the investments in some of thosecompanies. But let's bring it
back to you talk about purpose,right and so, purpose in our

(11:59):
lives, there's lots of differentpurposes and objectives within
lives. But in the organization,you say there is only one
primary purpose. And I thinkit's got to be said, You got to
tell everyone in the room.
That's the starting point, Ithink of what needs to be
understood.

Fred Reichheld (12:14):
It's true that you know, everybody does need a
purpose in life. But anorganization, a business
organization, if it is going toprosper and be sustainable, I've
discovered there is literallyone purpose that actually that
works mean, and that is to putcustomers first and make sure

(12:37):
that enriching the lives of yourcustomers is the most important
it is the primary purpose of theorganization's existence and
companies that that stray fromthat. They just, they end up in
the dustbin. It may take a longtime, because big companies can

(12:58):
play this game and pretend that,you know we're earning profits.
But are those profits actually,above your cost of capital? No,
is that you're actually justshrinking, you're on a slow
death curve. The companies thatgrow and prosper, they put
customers at the center, andthey never will the good
philosophy, Scott Cook, the guythat founded into it, who had

(13:19):
joined Bain and Company aboutthe same time I did about five
years into the firm, he went offand found it into it TurboTax
QuickBooks, so on, he says,Fred, in Intuit, we feel like we
don't deserve us $1 of profituntil the customer is happy. And
the sort of an old fashionedapproach right you know, money

(13:39):
back guaranteed. We but it'sit's the right philosophy, we
don't deserve any benefit untilwe've solved your problem. And
and business forgets that theythink that no, no, no, it's
Caveat emptor. That's what thelaws are. Good, maximize
shareholder value, give thecustomer enough satisfy the
customer, but for heaven'ssakes, never enrich their life

(14:01):
and make them a completepromoter who, who loves your
business and goes out and bringsall their friends. Invert refers
them.

Leon Goren (14:09):
So I know you refer to this as love your customer.

Fred Reichheld (14:13):
Yeah, that's a simple way of putting it right.
Jesus says, Love thy neighbor asthyself, or supposedly, man,
according to book of Matthew, Heraised the stakes from the old
fashioned golden rule, which wasdon't do bad things to others.
That's from the Talmud.
Actually, it's from Confucius10,000 years ago. This is not a
new idea. But now though, youraise the stakes to love thy
neighbor, you know, or in my twowords, treat your treat

(14:38):
customers the way you'd want aloved one treated and suddenly
you this is a much higherstandard, not just satisfy them,
but make their life bettersustainably. Of course not, you
know, not slavishlyunsustainably doing things for
them, there has to be a mutuallybeneficial relationship by If
you don't deserve $1 of profituntil you've made their, you

(15:01):
know, put a smile on their face.

Leon Goren (15:05):
So what companies today are really doing this,
right. And doing

Fred Reichheld (15:11):
these companies who have the highest net
promoter score, you know,because Net Promoter Score is a
name I came up with 20 yearsago, but when I was toying with
names for this, because itreally is, it's a philosophy of
every life you touch, whetheryou're an individual, a team or
an organ company, you're goingto enrich it or diminish it. And
I wanted to have a simple metricthat net lives, enriched it,

(15:35):
because that's what makes theworld a better place you, you
can talk about all these highminded purposes in the world,
and blah, blah, blah. But if wetouch a life, and it hasn't been
enriched, you didn't make theworld a better place. That
metric, which I almost call thatlives in rich became, you know,
a net promoter score is what Iended up with, that gives you a

(15:56):
sense of, have I lived up tothis golden rule standard, did
that customer feel the love? Andand it gives you a deep insight
of whether you have succeeded orfailed when in a relationship.

Leon Goren (16:09):
So for the Net Promoter Score, just for those
who maybe refreshing I mean, youhave the promoters, and you have
the detractors, and it's reallythe net of the two,

Fred Reichheld (16:17):
right. And it's one we looked at, I wanted a
simple metric. I don'tparticularly like surveys, but I
think we needed a survey to getthis going. We checked which
question, best predicted futurebehaviors of customers? You
know, we asked hundreds ofcustomers in a dozen different

(16:39):
industry, all these different,you know, how satisfied were you
satisfied, right, yourexperience worthy of your
loyalty, its intention to returnblah, blah, blah. But one
question that was the bestpredictor of these loyalty
behaviors was, how likely isyou'd recommend this to a
friend. And I didn't fullyappreciate why at the time, but

(17:03):
it just was the best predictorof true behaviors. So net
promoter was based on askingthat one question zero through
10. We watched behaviors, and wesaw that people that scored
nines and 10s had way betterbehaviors and acted like
promoters and sevens and eights,you know, they they got what
they paid for, but they're no,they're not assets. They're not

(17:24):
loyal, and the zeros throughsixes. I mean, obviously, the
zeros are pissed off, and thesixes are just sort of an, but
they're all detractors, and theymake your brand worse, they feel
like they have not gotten whatthey paid. So take the
percentage of your customers orpromoters minus the percent or
detractors. That's what netpromoter is.

Leon Goren (17:43):
That's great. So can I give you a scenario? Like, I
know, we have a bunch ofprobably b2b CPG companies on
here, right? So they're goingthrough a distribution channel
of the retailers, right? So theyhave two customers really, I
don't want to certain days, butthe retailer, the big box
retailer, and then the endconsumer. I just think about the

(18:05):
last few years, I actually canthink about the last eight
months or a year withinflationary pressures, right?
Where you gotta love yourcustomer. You're saying, but
your customer, which is a bigretailer, sitting there and
saying, what inflation? What doyou mean, you want to put a
price in here? Yeah, we'll getback to you next month. And then
they don't get back to you forfour months, right. And
meanwhile, you're just beingsqueezed and put out of

(18:27):
business? How do you love yourcustomers in that type of
situation, and that is, youknow, COVID sort of disinflation
thing sort of brought it tolight. But it's been there for
many, many years, they talkedabout partnerships and all this
type of stuff. That's the oneelement I looked at this, like,
I want to love my customer, butI can't necessarily respect my

(18:47):
customer on the other side.

Fred Reichheld (18:50):
Over time, over time, you really don't want to
be doing business with customerswho don't feel that mutual
partnership, you know, ifsomeone is going to abuse you
and take advantage of at everyturn, you may have to do
business with them strategicallyfor a period of time, but you'll
eventually find a way to letyour competitors have them

(19:13):
because they have potentiallydestroy a business that the vast
majority of companies andcustomers I think, respect this,
you know, I don't want GoldenRule behavior does not mean
you're doing everything I wantand going bankrupt, because I'm
being unrealistic and asking forstuff that is impossible. Good

(19:35):
people don't want that tohappen. So do business with good
people. And most people want tobe good sometimes it takes a
little education so theyunderstand your side of the
equation and your and areconvinced of your dedication to
just you know, if you live theScott Cook ethic, we're not
going to make any profit untilwe solve your problem. That

(19:55):
customer you know, chances arethey're going to like doing
business with you and treat youas a partner, if, if they're
convinced that that is yourphilosophy and you deliver over
time.

Leon Goren (20:06):
Yeah, I sometimes wonder whether there's a
misalignment right, in terms ofthey may love their customers,
but they also love theirstakeholders and shareholders,
which becomes a problem, rightreporting on quarterly. But

Fred Reichheld (20:17):
whoa, I, you know, we asked business firms
around the world, what theirprimary purpose was. Only 10%
said it was to make theircustomers lives better. The vast
majority of businesses todaythink it's to make our
shareholders rich, it's thisbalance duty to all stakeholder,

(20:39):
you know, Baloney, but thatbasically defaults back to
profits, because you can say allthe stuff you want about
stakeholder balance, but if yourun your business based on
profits, and you pay yourbonuses based on profits, and
your your report profits to yourinvestors, you know,
essentially, profits are thepurpose. And, and so yeah, I
think a lot of companies I havereally confused. Objectives and

(21:06):
priorities. The reason I thinkmy book winning on purpose may
be able to help as I put thefacts there, you know, finally,
one business that hasn't behavedin this loving manner, who has
sustained you know, it has, youcan't find a company who has the
highest NPS that's notdelivering the best shareholder

(21:26):
return. And, you know, you cansay, oh, that's that industry or
that industry. And after dozensof industries, you say, You know
what, this is a generalprinciple. And it makes sense. I
mean, why would good people wantto work for a company that
they're not proud of how theytreat customers, and investors
and employees? And and so I sawone of the questions in the in
the chat was, what about ESG?
How do we think about theenvironment and one of the CEOs

(21:50):
who taught me a lot about NPS,he says, Fred, I know you picked
would recommend to a friend,because of it predicted
behaviors, but I like netpromoter, because I know my
customers won't recommend thisto a friend and publicly connect
their personal brand to us. Ifif we're abusing our employees,

(22:12):
or ruining the environment, orcheating on our taxes, this
recommend is a very highstandard. And it captures things
that are dei and ESG. And allthese other well intentioned
things. But the more metrics youhave, the more poorly you
measure them. And the more flakythey are, let's get one, based

(22:32):
on treating someone so well,that they're proud to be
associated with you and want youto succeed. That's what
recommendation measures, let'sjust get that measure, right?
Instead of measuring it like 20Other flaky, semi important
metrics. I agree.

Leon Goren (22:52):
I, you know, the other question I want to ask you
with on the customer loyaltyside, and it's related to
sustainability, right? Thedifferent generations, the
boomers, the millennials, or GenZ, is the pressure to be
sustainable, like, the newergenerations more fickle a little

(23:12):
bit too, and does that put morestress on the organization of a
constant reinventing, it's likeApple, I gotta keep coming up
with the new product and stuff.
We're all jumped to Google ortoday, Tesla, right. But what
happens when five years today,some other organization comes
along, that does somethingbetter?

Fred Reichheld (23:29):
Now, I don't think that's changed. I think
the human reality is, if youlove your customer, you have to
give them remarkableexperiences, and innovate, and
be on top of that. And you know,if you build a great trusting
relationship, you are in aposition to find what's best for
them. And if you can't do it,then build a partnership with

(23:50):
the supplier who does it. Andbecause you have better
information and can can protecttheir interests and probably
understand their problems in away they never will. So it's
just this duty. I remember,there was controversy about
index funds, over the yearsabout whether they were actually

(24:11):
better than actively managed to,when I was in college, I looked
at the facts, and it was veryclear to me, index funds, beats
actively managed funds, have,you know, over the years, over a
decade, it's just, and youunderstand the math behind it,
you go, you know, I couldn'treally live with myself as a
financial advisor, pitchingactively managed funds, knowing

(24:34):
what I know. And, and that putsyou in a real bind. Over time, I
think most guys have come aroundand said, You know, it's true.
You got to have your coreinvestments in a good index
fund. You know, maybe we canmess around on the edges with
other stuff. But if you do stuffthat you know in your heart is

(24:54):
wrong. You're not sustainable.
You're not making the worldbetter. You're not making your
best yours better off reallylong term, your the exam oral
and even though it sounds alittle too high minded, so I, I
think I'll tell you a quickstory that the guy who ran
Vanguard and had all theevidence that that smart people

(25:17):
who knew the facts would puttheir money in a Vanguard Index
Fund or similar thing, back thenreally weren't good
alternatives, as there aretoday. And he said, we went to
a, an active management, allthese smart investment,
institutional managers makingmillions of dollars. And
somebody asked him, How many ofyou have have your personal

(25:39):
savings and money in a in aVanguard Index Fund, and like
90% of the room raise theirhand, so they knew what was in
their best interest, but theywere pitching their clients this
other schlock that was sellingand making profits. But you've
seen what happened to theindustry. And you know, the more
you do stuff that's not reallyin your customer's best

(26:01):
interest. You're on a slow deathmarch.

Leon Goren (26:06):
It's true. So what do you you want to kick this
off? You said 10% of companiesare doing this, everything
starts with people. Right?
You've, you've been in and outof so many different
organizations? How do you teachyour leaders and then your
employees to believe in thisphilosophy and to live it?

Fred Reichheld (26:28):
I? That's a great question. Until this book
existed, I didn't have a goodanswer. Now, what I've seen with
some really sharp companies, isleaders are giving the book to
teams, not just theirexecutives, the frontline, and
creating discussion groups wherelet's talk about this chapter.
At the end of the month, we'rejust going to talk about what's

(26:49):
in this chapter and what makessense to you. What are we doing
that's inconsistent with theseprinciples? You think these
principles are right for us? Butgetting a no, it's just a moral
and economic discussion. And oneof the companies I described in
the in the book is called bills,it's a, it really is a
remarkable digital app that doesa way that with the need for

(27:13):
paper instructions, it just putsit into the modern world with
with CAD on your iPhone, yourphone or your pan. And that
company wants to build a cultureof customer centricity. So they,
they just cycle through thechapters of the book with
discussion groups that mixlevels of the organization, and,
and they talk, ethical,sustainable. Love thy neighbor.

(27:36):
What does this mean for us? Whatare we? So I do think it's a set
of huddles, or meetings ordiscussion groups that puts this
stuff front and center. And youknow, maybe you'll find another
book that does a great job foryou but But consider winning on
purpose as the Kickstarter forthe right set of conversations.

Leon Goren (27:54):
In your book, who- you talk about a couple of
companies that do this verywell. Which one stands out in
your mind that that is really-

Fred Reichheld (28:05):
-well, I, you know, the famous ones apple, but
Intuit is pretty famous. Onethat's not as famous. It's the I
lead chapter one with a companythat I didn't know that much
about called caliber collision.
They're the biggest chain ofcollision repair, you know, auto
body repair shops in NorthAmerica, and talk about a gritty

(28:26):
business that is not famous forloving customers. This guy,
Steve Grimshaw, had did aprivate equity, roll up of the
industry video, acquiring littlechains and building. He just
built a great business based onpurpose. Making our customers

(28:46):
lives better is the centraltheme, where he's turned this
pretty lousy industry and dosomething I think, is pretty
darn impressive. And at the sametime, you didn't just make his
employees happy, the customershappy. The private equity guys
that invested with him haveearned 50% A year five zero, you

(29:08):
know, he has created a 50 timesin return on investment over the
decade by by corralling anindustry that ran on short term
profit maximization and turningit into one that people were
proud to work for and reallygave their best.

Leon Goren (29:29):
That's great. I know I could open up to questions
really, truly, but I want tocome to this earth grow thing
because this is really the it'sa new piece within your book as
well in terms of how you'relooking at, well, it's
predicting the future of a lotof the companies right by by
seeing what customers are doingand what's coming in through
word of mouth. Can you maybewalk the audience through on how

(29:53):
you calculate that? It seemssimple, but it's it's not as
simple like you have it two waysone, if If you're small enough,
I think you can do it by thenumber of customers. But the
other way is you also have to doit to revenue too, if you're
large.

Fred Reichheld (30:07):
Yeah, you know, in the first book, I wrote the
loyalty effect, I laid outloyalty economics. And I made an
assumption that companies couldjust do this, and do customer
cash. Cash flows from everycustomer through time. So you
can think about net presentvalue of customers and a net
present value of investments tochange the the flows from, but

(30:32):
most companies can't do thatthey pool customers together and
take revenues as a pool number,not customer by customer, newer
businesses, like Amazon, thecustomer based accounting is
that's how their systems are setup, they know what exactly they
can run tests and test and learntheir way to heaven. So given

(30:52):
that most companies don't havethat ability, I think eventually
you have to move that way andand build the internal
capability to have customeraccounting. What's the short
cut? Well, the first shortcutwas Net Promoter Score. But it's
a survey. And sir, you can screwaround with surveys, and you can
have sampling errors. And, youknow, people reporting numbers

(31:14):
like 80, to 90%, NPS, to theirinvestors, and you go, what is
going on? Well, they it wasinternally generated, and we
have this tech platform thatjust pings somebody every time
there's a transaction or a saleor a purchase. And and that's
how we get our NPS number. Well,do you think all of your

(31:36):
customers shop equally, equallyfrequently? No will who's
shopping most frequently, andtherefore getting the most
survey requests are promoters.
So you're over sampling yourpromoters in that mechanism, oh,
and by the way, which customersactually are willing to take the
time to bother filling out asurvey promoters. And, and then,
and you think that people arelearning from the Ubers. And the

(31:58):
car dealers of the world thatonly a 10 is a passing grade,
and they don't want to get anindividual in trouble. So not
only is there over sampling ofpromoters, but there's biasing
that, you know, I only give ascore below a 10 or a five,
unless there's a you know, it'sa criminal offense, and these
things cumulate into sillyscores, and I said, stop linking

(32:19):
this to people's bonuses. It'swrong. It's stupid, it's, but
people wouldn't stop. So Irecognize that we do need
something for accountability.
What should it be? And so I wentback to what Andy Taylor told me
originally with Enterpriserental car, you know, great

(32:40):
companies, customers, come backfor one bring their friends,
let's get the accounting metricsfor that. So earn growth is just
simply how much of your growth,how much of your revenues, how
much your growth is coming fromcustomers who were with you last
year, expanding their purchases,and there's a lot of front
leading industries alreadymeasured, it's called Net

(33:02):
Revenue retention rate. I'll getthat. quantify it carefully. And
then the second component is,and how much of my new customers
are coming primarily, as aresult of referrals or
recommendations from my existinggroup of customers, those are
earned. And then that's theearned growth, the bulk growth

(33:22):
or sales, incentives, discounts,marketing gimmicks, you know,
all this stuff that is, that'show most companies grow. But it
doesn't make much money itactually when you split it apart
and look at customer basedaccounting often that bought
growth has negative net presentvalue. And so I've just laid out
earned growth and how you cancalculate it how you can record

(33:44):
it as a as an appropriate way tolink to people's bonuses and
report publicly if you're apublic company company.

Leon Goren (33:54):
Yeah, and so you had to if you're positive 30, you're
growing you had one that wasminus 30-

Fred Reichheld (34:01):
Yeah, means it's a bit of a disaster. You can
find your growth for a while butit's real expensive and you tend
to get worse customers. Youknow, if you get your new
customers with price discountsyou're adverse selecting the
most price sensitive group inthe market who is going to run
to the next guy that isdesperate with capacity and
gives a discount so you nevermake your money back you know,

(34:23):
you think you're gonna keep themfor four years and earn earn
back your loss and period one.
Not likely.

Leon Goren (34:31):
It's true.

Nelson Fresco (34:32):
I was made president just before COVID-19
lockdown began.

unknown (34:35):
Nelson fresco President Miele Canada.

Nelson Fresco (34:38):
We pivoted by compressing our five year online
strategy into the last fiveweeks

unknown (34:42):
Surprised? Don't be.
Nelson is a member of PEOleadership, Canada's premier
peer to peer advisory firm.

Nelson Fresco (34:48):
PEO leadership helped me develop my ability to
lead with speed. We've seen asubstantial increase in online
sales and Miele officesworldwide are following our
Canadian example.

unknown (34:58):
The time to step up and lead is now. Go to
PEO-leadership.com.

Leon Goren (35:03):
All right, let me pick up a couple of questions
here. So I know I urgeeverybody, either in the chat or
the q&a, I'll flip between themboth. But Martin Day had one.
Can you use NPS in a world ofGoogle reviews?

Fred Reichheld (35:16):
Yeah. And I think Google review is very
sloppy. But it's not worth zero.
I think that my kids all go toGoogle reviews. And they start
there. Because it's, you know,it's not something that people
aren't buying reviews. I don'tthink yet, but they certainly do
buy reviews on Amazon. The, buthow do you really get a

(35:42):
reputation? Usually, you ask afriend, or someone who is an
expert, and certainly inbusiness to business, yes,
people who you know, in thecommunity in the business
community. So real customersattitudes, when they share them,
publicly, have big impact. Andthat's how most people make

(36:03):
decisions these days, they mightstart with a Google review, as
the superficial initial start,but if it's a big purchase and
important one, they're almostalways going to go someplace
that is a little moretrustworthy. And data so and I
think the implication is, yougot to get your customers, your
legitimate customers putting thereality of their experience out

(36:23):
into the world, whether it'ssocial media or rating sites, or
on your site, get your customersto speak the truth.

Leon Goren (36:37):
not always an easy thing to do, as we all know,
right? They don't speak thetruth, but getting them to do it
is sometimes more difficult,depending on which business
you're

Fred Reichheld (36:45):
if you've got a real promoter who felt the love,
they want you to succeed. If youhad sort of an eight, and said,
Yeah, it's everything's finebanks, yeah, those, those are
hard people to recruit. But ifsome, if you've done something
really special for somebody,that's remarkable. They want to
share that with people they careabout, not just for you, they

(37:08):
want their friends and family tohave that experience. It's you
know, a referral is an act oflove. It's not for me, it's for
them, I want to enrich theirlives to

Leon Goren (37:18):
some real incentive, as you think about your business
and your customers just to keep,

Fred Reichheld (37:22):
if you're not getting referrals from your
customers, you're not remarkableenough. You really think about
Zappos was a really successfulbusiness selling online shoes.
The guy that founded that, whodied tragically last year, but
he said, you know, marketing andsales, those are taxes that we
can't afford to pay their taxes,you have to pay for not being

(37:45):
special for your customer. We'drather put our investment in
being special for our customers.
So we have to wow them. And theyand they wowed me yesterday, you
know, I'm going on a trip. Ineed a pair of shoes. They're
there. In less than 24 hours inI'm down on Cape Cod. So it's
not like I'm close to the anurban warehouse. Just
incredible. Warby Parker withhim in eyeglasses, same thing.

(38:08):
They find things that just wow,you they don't just do stuff.
Okay. And I think that's thehigher standard that you have to
hold yourself to. And thenpeople do talk about you, and
they're willing to refer.

Leon Goren (38:24):
That's great sharing there. Our next question, I've
got an I see it's, I think it'sfrom a Richard, how do you
determine a public companies toNPS? And I think you were sort
of touching on this a littlebit, because, and you definitely
touch about it in the bookbecause people are reporting on
their financial statements. Alldifferent types of NPS and, and

(38:48):
actually, it's also the thing Iwas thinking about, it's
difficult, like if you do yourown NPS score, you say, Okay,
well, you want to benchmark it,right? Get a sense of how others
are doing. I don't even knowwhere you look, I know you talk
about different areas, but itdoesn't look easy to actually
compare yourself.

Fred Reichheld (39:04):
It's not and this is one where I would send
you to the book and read becauseit it's something that Bane was
frustrated enough that wedeveloped a data business called
NPS prism that is building panelbased NPS results for every

(39:24):
major industry and marchingaround the world. But the way
it's financing itself is sellingthat data in a syndicated
fashion to the companies in thatindustry who can learn from it
and test innovations andimprovements. So one source is
you buy that from an NPS prismor what their I presume their

(39:47):
competitors out there now, oryou can do it yourself. And it's
a little expensive because yougot to get panels, especially in
b2b It's hard to get panels ofthe real decision makers who are
making purchase decisions. But Ithink in some cases, you can't
get NPS versus your competitorsin a perfect way. One nice

(40:07):
little workaround I've seen iswhen you ask your customer how
likely you'd recommend us to afriend. And then you ask them.
And if you're doing businesswith another supplier, what's
the best of those? And howlikely is recommend them to a
friend and understand thedifference? So you can find
interesting ways to getcomparisons for your own

(40:30):
improvement if you're anInternal Manager. But if you're
just looking for investmentinsights, like I do it, I don't
think there's a better way thanNPS prism.

Leon Goren (40:40):
That's great. How, how did you guys do to Bane? Did
you ever compare yourself orbenchmark yourself see if the
McKinsey's and-

Fred Reichheld (40:48):
Yeah, it was real expensive, that's when you
know that we were the firstcompany to use NPS anywhere in
the world, because it gotinvented in vain. When we did it
internally, we asked ourclients, usually once or twice a
year, but it's not just theheadquarters singing of sending
out surveys, the the leadpartner on the account talks to

(41:08):
the account, various levels,decision makers, influencers
that people we work with everyday, what's the right frequency?
How does this link into ouraccount review process? And in
do you want it down anonymous,so you can speak the truth? Or
should we have it named by nameso we can do closed loop follow

(41:30):
up? Or do you want to have bothand let people ask for anonymity
so they can speak, you know,there's all these subtle, let's
tune it up for the account. Andthen the guy that pushes the
button, or the woman that pushesthe button for a Sunday survey
request, is the partner on incharge of the account. And they
already have a schedule of whenwe get the data, when we're

(41:50):
going to follow up with theclient, what the next thing
we're going to do so it'sintegrated into the account
management process, not just asort of one more activity that
somehow we'll double check onpeople.

Leon Goren (42:02):
And when you did it, I mean, one of the things is the
sample size, right? If you get75% of the people responding-

Fred Reichheld (42:11):
In b2b, if you do a system, right, a client who
doesn't respond is screamingout. I'm a potential detractor,
because I'm not you haven'tconvinced me that you've built a
process that actually caresabout me? Well, you know, it's
wasting our time. And so watchout and be to see and you know,
the market has been sooversaturated. With survey

(42:34):
requests, I think, to separateyourself from the pack, you
really have to build, you haveto say, this is different. Maybe
you create a club level, likeCostco does, or Amazon Prime and
to be in that club. Part of thedeal is we want feedback twice a
year, it's three questions twicea year, it's very reasonable,
and we act on it when you havesomething to say. But if you

(42:57):
just sit in the current pool ofLet's send out Jillian survey
requests on email and hope thatsomebody is bored or lonely
enough to respond, you know,what kind of information you're
really getting?

Leon Goren (43:10):
It's true. All right, I'm gonna go to the next
topic. Do you differentiate MPsbased on customer journey? pre
purchase post purchase postcost?

Fred Reichheld (43:19):
Oh, yeah, the way that NPS prism is set up.
And this is where you go to thebook. That prism gets brand
level NPS. But then they have1000s of people on their panels
who have bought from variousbrands. And they, they'll ask
them about one or two journeysthat they've or episodes in the
journey that they've beenthrough recently, like if

(43:41):
they've just opened an account,based on that experience, how
likely I'd recommend that maybethey had a fraud challenge on
their credit card, and you get abig enough pool who've had that
within the last 30 days, and youask them, so you get episode,
specific NPS for everycompetitor, which I think is
God's gift to management. If youknow who's the best at every

(44:05):
episode and the rank orderingand digital versus human. This
this is like shining a light onthis very confusing situation
and you can see for your targetcustomers what you've got to do
to be great. That's great.

Leon Goren (44:22):
And another one in the chat here MP Mike someone we
currently use pecan at ourcompany to manage MPs. What are
your thoughts on choosing theright company? IDS ideas, there
are one system better than isone system better than another?

Fred Reichheld (44:39):
You know, there's a lot of players in the
space. The two biggest guys areMedallia and Qualtrics. They
tend to be solutions for biggercompanies. I think they both
have subsidiaries that deal withSMB pretty nicely. I think the

(44:59):
future Risk viewer surveys ofthe old fashioned variety and,
and more watching customerbehaviors that are indicators of
their promoters or theirdetractors. And then when you
need a survey, make sure it'ssort of pre negotiated about
what's the appropriate frequencyand lens, so you have a high

(45:20):
response rate and get not, youknow, it's really you want two
or three questions, Max, thatwith open text verbatims. And
the best companies now, don'tforce the person to type in or,
you know, whatever you do thesedays key in your, your answers,
you just tuck it into your headto your mobile phone, and it

(45:42):
digitizes it, and sends it tothe people in your organization
who should be listening to it.
And so you get the tone of voiceand the emotion, just way more
efficient. And then it candigitize it as well and put it
into text form. But then I'mdoing a webinar in a couple of
weeks with with CVS, the bigdrug chain, and they use a tool
from Medallia that instead ofjust talking it into your mobile

(46:07):
phone, it does a FaceTime, youknow, it's a, it's a video, that
is the feedback file that goesinto the system. And you think,
jeez, in retailing, or in a lotof businesses, where you don't
know the customers name, but yousure know their face, if it's
within 24 hours, they're gettingthe feedback. So you learn who
it was, and you get all theemotion of that. And it's, it's

(46:30):
more frictionless for thecustomer to do that than to have
to do a survey and sit down attheir computer. So I think I
would move towards thosesolutions as soon as feasible.
Okay.

Leon Goren (46:48):
Oregon, if you sell through a channel, do you get
the net promoter for both thereseller and the end customer?

Fred Reichheld (46:56):
Yeah, I would, I think this notion when you do
have, you know, insurancecompanies Good doing business
through agents, or brokers,consumer products CPG, going
through retailers, you, you wantto get your brand, but it's
never going to be divorcedcompletely from the channel. So

(47:19):
one way to solve that is, maybeyou're just doing it for your
brand, we always keep track ofwhich channel they went through
or which retailer and you canessentially develop a, a, an NPS
factor that it improves or goesdown based on which store is
selling you or which agent isselling you. And I do think you
should be very careful, there isa lot of a lot to be learned.

(47:42):
And most people also have adirect channel and can go online
directly. And at least someparts of the world and, and
learning from those, how muchbetter it is, is it for building
relationships to go direct? AndI think you can make some
important strategy choices aboutchannel channel strategy.

Leon Goren (48:03):
I think that's the big way the world has changed is
being able to hit that endconsumer. And

Fred Reichheld (48:10):
almost everybody can today.

Leon Goren (48:14):
Yeah, well, I think you need a sample of it. Yeah.
Because the mass market still isdriving for some 50 for 60% of
their business. Right. Andlimiting.

Fred Reichheld (48:25):
But But there's an interesting, you know, look
carefully at the Tesla story. Inchapter five, I think it is.
Tesla has the highest NPS andthe auto business. And a lot of
it is their product. But a nontrivial amount is they don't
have a bunch of third partydealer franchises who are who do

(48:45):
not have a customer basedphilosophy. You know, they they
want to pull maximum dollars outof the customers wallet, not
Scott Cook, we don't deserve $1a profit until the customers
happy. So Tesla has a philosophyof making our customers happy.
And they can do it because theydon't have a channel who has
different objectives. And andit's gonna be hard for the state

(49:09):
for the current brands tocompete with that without really
changing their distribution

Leon Goren (49:15):
strategy. No, I agree. All right. I'm gonna go
we had some questions also inthe q&a. Oh, somebody asked
about how do I invest in a baseNPS, where we're finding which I
think you've been talking alittle bit about to look up a
company to invest in base NPS

Fred Reichheld (49:33):
read chapter five. Yeah. Okay. It is it is
still relevant data. I'm stunnedhow few people invest on these
insights.

Leon Goren (49:43):
Yeah. It by the way in those charts was interesting
because the companies that youhad there. They were newer
companies that felt like alittle bit like you have the
Amazons you had. Have your bookhere and that time When I was
looking at it and going, and sothat whole sustainability piece

(50:04):
came up in the back of my head,right?

Fred Reichheld (50:07):
Well, Chick fil A is not a new company and Chick
fil A is crushing it. Right?
Enterprise rent the car is not anew company, and they're
crushing it. They're private. Soyeah, I think you have to be
innovative and exciting for yourclient. And that's, that's the

(50:30):
reality of life. Because ifyou're sent if you're if you're
pitching old fashioned Sherlock,to your customer, and if you
love them, you'd actually sendthem to something better. You
know, it's not a winningstrategy.

Leon Goren (50:50):
Well, that comes back to the era of innovation
constantly innovating with thecustomer. Yeah, it's

Fred Reichheld (50:56):
the human doesn't seem fair, right. But
even if you're just outstanding,and they trust you, and you just
do great stuff. But if you'renot exciting, you get bored with
people, it's the human, youknow, you just discount
something. So you always have tobe searching for the remarkable.
And, you know, sometimes it'sjust acts of kindness. It's the

(51:18):
way you treat people, it's, butyou got to surprise them. The
guy that ran the founded Costco,Jim Senegal, told me, you know,
Fred, if we just had low coststores, and you always had
predictable experiences, wewould have a lousy business.
Because if if we're just beinglow costs, online competitors

(51:38):
can do that better than we can.
And that's the lower cost formost stuff. said, The reason
Costco works is people arewilling to go to those
inconvenient stores, and thelousy parking lots, because
there was a treasure huntinside. And there is there was a
wow. Not Not every time butevery few times you're going to
Costco there is this wow, thatyou want to, you know, tell your

(52:00):
friends about. It's a highstandard. But I think given the
way the human brain works, andonce you get a pattern that's
predictable. You don't even payattention. It doesn't exist
anymore. Your brain just sort ofputs it in the background. And
you got to stay out of that oryou're going to be an also ran.

Leon Goren (52:19):
Yeah, I really appreciate your Costco story.
Because I've known Costco formany years, I never realized it
was 14% above costs. And that'sit. There are

Fred Reichheld (52:30):
15 If it's Kirkland, so 14, if it's other
if it's branded stuff.

Leon Goren (52:34):
Yeah, and there are no exceptions. If they are
negotiate a better deal, it'sstill 14. And I thought that was
just unbelievable. I mean,you're right, you're making a
difference to every one of thosecustomers, with

Fred Reichheld (52:46):
their customers.
They, they make it clear totheir investors, customers come
first, we call them members,employees come second, investors
come third. That's how we runCostco. And, and it's a great
place to work. Because when youtreat customers with love, they
tend to like, you know, treatyou well in return. And it's a

(53:07):
pretty sweet business. And yeah,there's a good example. Costco
is not a new company, butthey're just crushing it. Yeah,

Leon Goren (53:18):
absolutely. So we have one other quick, what is
statistically relevant responserate to validate NPS scoring.

Fred Reichheld (53:27):
You cannot sort of ask me to teach a first year
college statistics course in aone question, answer.

Leon Goren (53:35):
Come on, Fred, we were Mr. Customer Loyalty.

Fred Reichheld (53:42):
You know, if you really, you know, it's simple,
simple rules of thumb, you know,get a sample size of over 100.
For every unit, you know, thatyou're measuring that then
response rate doesn't make thatmuch difference. If there's no
bias, if it's double blind, nobiases inside, you can have

(54:05):
medium response rates, but it'swhen you have all these biases,
that, you know, promoters, buymore frequently, they're in
those transactions, they tend torespond at a higher rate. And I
would say, Stop fixating on thescore and statistical

(54:25):
reliability, and start saying,you know, it's a survey. It's
got all sorts of flaws in it.
But when I get a detractor, Iknow I gotta call him up and
figure out what went wrong andfix it. And when I get to a
promoter who gives me this greatverbatim, that makes me proud. I
want to share that with all thepeople that had anything to do
with it and create the energy.
It's a learning process. It'snot about a score. If you have

(54:47):
an NPS, prism, data business,then you can start saying okay,
it's a score, but that let's useduring growth as the score, and
then PS as a prop. says forlearning how to make your
business better.

Leon Goren (55:04):
That's great. I actually, some some people that
sent the questions in the headRick Martel sent him one. And I
think in a world of employeeretention, how do we bounce our
teams with customer satisfactionwhile not losing focus on
employee satisfaction out of thetwo mesh? And I think you just
touched on that, when you get apromoter out there. And you
think about all the people thattouched him, that individual and

(55:27):
reinforced it in thereorganization? It must be a
thrill to that those employees.

Fred Reichheld (55:34):
Oh, yeah, the lady at Apple who had the
highest score, I talked abouther in the in the book. I asked
her what's it feel like when youget a tan? And she said, Well, I
feel like I'm living the rightlife. I went to Quaker school
and golden rule and making theworld a better place. So you
know, when I've enriched thelife and I get a standing
ovation in the form of a 10,Anna, verbatim explanation of

(55:57):
that, that's, that's a betterbonus. I mean, obviously have to
pay competitive wages. But ifyou pay competitive wages, and
you put people in a situationwhere they can earn and hear
standing ovations regularly,they're not going to want to
work someplace else.

Leon Goren (56:12):
Yeah, that's great.
Someone asks, Theresa Hardyasked a more personal question,
tell us about a mentor orsomeone that has influenced your
life, professionally,personally. And what's the best
advice?

Fred Reichheld (56:28):
The temptation is go back to your parents? Ah,
who would I put as? You know, itprobably it's, it's the leaders
I write about them in thepreface to the book. It's guys,
you know, go beyond family. tooprofessional. It was Andy

(56:52):
Taylor, and enterprise rent thecar. Bob, Harry's was the head
of USAA. He was the ViceChairman of the Joint Chiefs.
And I'm not a military guy. Myfamily's not military. But boy,
military done right. And USAA isawesome. And even. This is a you
know, I'm more distant. The guythat founded Chick fil A, to add

(57:15):
Kathy, just totally different.
And, you know, they've got thisanti gay thing, and two of my
four kids are gay and proudlymarried. So you know, you got to
think, wow, how can you even sitin a room with that, but this
was a he was a good man. Just,you know, he, he, his he loved
putting smiles on people'sfaces. That was his life. So

(57:39):
it's those and it was JimSinegal at Costco. These things
probably Tim Cook at Apple. Ijust don't know him personally,
like I do these others, but youguys who can be leaders, and
inspire their teams to lovecustomers. That's pretty
special.

Leon Goren (57:59):
Yeah. Well, as we come to the end, Fred, if you
wanted, maybe one or two thingsyou hope people who listen to us
today and listen to youprimarily? What do you hope they
take away here?

Fred Reichheld (58:14):
Well, you got finite days on earth. Think
carefully about what you want toaccomplish with it. With those
days, and if it's making theworld better and enriching more
lives, then you diminish, startkeeping track of that, and share
that with your friends andfamily and your colleagues. And
I'd say the other is, let thatinfluence who you do business

(58:35):
with, you know, your life isessentially, who you spend your
time with. And you want to buyfrom companies and work for
companies and invest incompanies who live this, this
philosophy and they earn yourloyalty. So that would be that's
my takeaway. And you know, lookat the little dedication in the

(58:57):
book that the book was writtenfor my grandchildren. It's sort
of my life's lessons that I hopecan get passed on to them. And
it's not just about how to makemoney in business or investing.
It's about how to live yourlife. And net promoter, I think,
has a very important role toplay there.

Leon Goren (59:15):
And I want to thank you so much for joining us
today, sharing your wise words.
And for everyone out there. Sohere's the book, winning on
purpose. Absolutely Fabulous.
Honestly, it takes you you coulddo it in one day, but two or
three days if I open the book,I'm embarrassed by it because I
got every tab every page has afold on the page that I have to

(59:38):
come back to pencil markseverywhere. They're absolutely
fantastic. But thank you forsharing your insights again with
us today. And well that isreally bring us to the end of of
today. Listen, if you'reinterested in any way forward
live webcasts, please visit usat our website,

(59:58):
PEO-leadership.com. Next monthwe're actually doing it in
person but it's also recorded itwill be recorded down all right
to speak about the laborchallenges and the opportunities
before us. It's not all bad.
There are opportunities ahead ofus. We'll be hosting Darryl at
our- really our second in personevent of 2022 taking place at
Arden Bareless on June 22.

(01:00:21):
registration details are coming.
And I just simply like to thankyou all for joining us again and
wish you a fantastic day, weekand month and I hope to see many
of you in person on the 22nd ofJune. Take care.
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