July 12, 2019 • 43 mins
We're high school sweethearts who are now married. We're both convinced that our relationship wouldn't have made it through the trials and tribulations of growing up over the last 15 years if it hadn't been for the tools that we learned in an after-school program called, "City at Peace." In this episode, we outline the community ground rules for The Way We Lead and give you a look into the experience that first provided us with these tools which have served us well, not only in our relationship but also in our work and every day lives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jenelle (00:00):
These agreements have changed the way that we not only
talk to each other, but alsoargue with each other, which I
think is really important.
All couples fight and allcouples have disagreements and
all couples will go throughdifficult times and we
absolutely have gone throughthose and we have always stood
(00:23):
by these ground rules in orderto help us through.
Gaby (00:29):
Hola Hola, it's Gaby Acosta.
Jenelle (00:30):
And me, Jenelle Acosta We're high school sweethearts on
a journey to be better allies.
Gaby (00:35):
You're listening to The Way We Lead where we talk about
inclusive leadership, allyship,and advocacy with folks across
identities, industries, andexperiences.
Jenelle (00:45):
If you're new here, Welcome! You can follow us on
Facebook, Instagram, and Twitterusing the handle@thewaywelead.
Gaby (00:52):
We're glad you're here.
Let's jump in.
Hey everybody.
Jenelle (01:01):
Hey friendships.
Gaby (01:02):
I've got my lovely foxy wife over here.
Jenelle (01:06):
Ooh, I'm foxy?
Oh like this.
Gaby (01:08):
Always.
Jenelle (01:09):
This is fun.
Gaby (01:09):
My foxy wife.
Jenelle (01:11):
You can call me foxy.
Gaby (01:14):
And today we're talking about agreements! Agreements,
and also what we're callingground rules or rules for
engagement.
This is the episode where we'retalking about how to set the
tone for the conversations thatwe're going to be having on this
podcast, which are, I would saychallenging at times.
(01:34):
We're going to be talking aboutsome sensitive topics, identity,
power, privilege, complexissues.
And in order to do that, justlike making sure that we have
trust with one another in arelationship, in a romantic one
or in a friendship, we have tohave a foundation that we can
(01:54):
all agree upon so that we canunderstand how to relate to one
another and talk to one anotherand have conflicts in a
meaningful way so that we canmove forward rather than get
stuck and move backwards andbreak things apart.
Jenelle (02:12):
mmhmm, I was trying to think about how to explain this
to other people and I think thebest way to do it is we all have
very different expectationsbecause of the way that we grew
up or the way that we were, y ouk now, sort of the environment
that we were around.
And if we don't state ourexpectations of each other out
(02:33):
loud, then we don't know how tohold each other accountable.
And so this is us stating ourexpectations not only of
ourselves but of our guests andhopefully you all as our a
udiences a s well.
Gaby (02:47):
Yeah.
If you think about it, thispodcasting journey is building a
relationship with a wholecommunity of people.
So we're taking what we, you andI, put into practice in our
relationship and applying it toour community of folks and we
hope that all of y'all listenerswill join us in participating in
(03:11):
these agreements when we haveconversations.
So we're going to break themdown.
Um, and later on what we'regoing to do is talk about where
these agreements came frombecause we built this foundation
from an experience that Jenelleand I had back when we were in
high school that really set thetone for who we are as people
and in our relationship.
And we want to share a littlebit of our backstory with y'all.
Jenelle (03:33):
Y ep.
Some of t his is something thatwe use e very d ay in our
relationship.
And some of this is things thatwe think are appropriate for
this audience.
So you, want to jump in?
Gaby (03:44):
Yeah, let's do it.
Okay.
Jenelle (03:45):
So agreement number one, believe best intentions
first.
How would you describe that?
Gaby (03:54):
I think this one is about intention.
It's about knowing that we'rehere to have meaningful
conversations and we're notalways going to get it right.
Sometimes our unconsciousbiases, which we all have, are
going to show themselves and ourconversations.
We're going to slip up, we'regoing to say things that aren't
(04:17):
quote unquote perfect.
And we're, we're navigating somecomplicated questions and we're
gonna do our best and, and usethe language that we have and
start where we're at now, right?
And our goal is to have ajourney.
So right now our intention is tolearn, it's to participate, it's
to engage, and then let us growand learn as we go.
(04:41):
So if we slip up, we're sorry.
Know that we do not mean to hurtor harm anyone and that we hope
that you recognize that we'renot perfect, but we're, we're
doing our best and we're here tolearn and, please give us room
to do so.
Jenelle (05:01):
And also call us out.
U m, I think one of my favoritethings that we're trying to do
is we're g oing t o a sked youall to talk to us back about
what are you feeling, thinking,what have you tried on, where do
we need to improve?
U m, and so if we're using thewrong language or thinking of
things in a way that you mightbelieve is wrong or incorrect,
(05:25):
let us know and we can start totalk about that.
Because the point of this is forus to learn, to learn from our
guests, and then also to helpthe audience learn as well.
Gaby (05:33):
Yeah.
Jenelle (05:33):
So we're always going to go with our best intentions
and sometimes our bestintentions will be wrong and we
want to fix that.
Gaby (05:39):
Absolutely.
And when you share your feedbackwith us, we'll assume the same
of you.
We want to have positiveintentions with the comments
that we're hearing from ourlisteners.
Jenelle (05:49):
Exactly.
Gaby (05:51):
All right.
Moving on to agreement numbertwo: listen to understand rather
than listening to respond.
Jenelle (06:00):
So this is one of my favorite agreements that we
have.
It stems from something thatwe've had in our relationship
for a long time, um, which isthe idea that you need to listen
even if it hurts.
It's not that if it is hurtingyou for some reason or if it's
triggering you for some reason,you're allowed to take care of
(06:22):
yourself and step away.
But sometimes we might betalking about something that's
difficult for you to swallowthat you may not, you're sort of
fighting with internally becauseyou either believe it or you
don't believe it or you're, it'sa struggle of your own identity.
And the goal should be tolisten, to try to understand
(06:46):
what they're saying.
Because I think a lot of thetime the, the first feeling is
to get upset or be angry.
Or hearing it.
And it triggers you in a waythat you, you want to respond to
that you want to defendyourself.
But the point isn't to defendyourself.
The point is to hear the otherperson's perspective.
Gaby (07:08):
Yeah, and I've been thinking about this one a lot
actually recently.
A lot of the time what someoneis saying isn't the words that
they're saying.
It's the intention or themeaning behind those words.
And that takes deeper listeninginstead of making an assumption
based on what words are comingout of someone's mouth, it's
(07:28):
important to me to try tounderstand and listen harder to
what's going on behind thatinitial message.
Jenelle (07:38):
I have a real life example of this.
Gaby (07:40):
Yeah.
Jenelle (07:41):
So you were having, I would identify you as an, uh, an
introvert.
I think you identify yourself asthat as well there.
Gaby (07:49):
Correct.
Jenelle (07:50):
And we were in a time where, um, you didn't have
introvert time.
And so I was being my normal,annoying, obnoxious self with
you and asking all thesequestions and you were like
googling something on your phoneand I was like, what are you
doing?
What are you looking at?
And you finally turned to me andjust what?
Why you always gotta ask mequestions.
(08:10):
Why can't I just live my life?
Like what's going on?
Like why do you got to bug meall the time?
I don't understand.
And I laughed so hard because Ijust went, you need alone time,
don't you?
This isn't about me.
This is about your needs.
And you were like, yes it is.
And like we have learned to dothat over time because we're in
a relationship.
But I think that that's anexample of you were in that
(08:31):
moment technically attacking me.
You were saying like you'remessing everything up.
Like why do you do this to me?
Gaby (08:37):
Okay, I didn't use those words.
Jenelle (08:38):
You you didn't.
But like the idea was...
Gaby (08:40):
I said,"let me live! Can't you just let me live?"
Jenelle (08:44):
But the point was like you were, you were having an
emotion and it was aimed towardsme and I was able to look at
that and know that it wasn'tabout me.
It was you.
Gaby (08:55):
100%
Jenelle (08:56):
and that takes a lot of time to know how to do on a
regular basis in practice.
But it's a good example ofsometimes things will be talked
about that may feel like it'sabout you or to trigger to you,
your culture, your identity,your group.
Listen to understand whatthey're trying to say first.
Gaby (09:19):
Yeah
Jenelle (09:19):
And then the next step is to respond.
Gaby (09:22):
Absolutely.
It doesn't mean that you can'tget upset because something was
said in a way that that hurtyou.
Jenelle (09:29):
Correct.
(09:29):
But it does mean trying to hear what the other person's
intention was first and thenwith kindness and love.
Respect.
Which leads us to....
Jenelle (09:44):
Agreement number three: use"I" statements.
Gaby (09:49):
I love this agreement.
This is an important one.
And I think especially in thebeginning when I was learning to
navigate the world of socialjustice and conversations around
power, race, privilege, etCetera, it felt really difficult
to...
I had a hard time not makinggeneralizations or statements
(10:14):
that I was like, well, we allfeel this way, right?
We all make assumptions.
I made a lot of assumptions atthat time about where everyone
else was coming from, but infact, it's really important to
talk about your own experienceand your own opinion and call it
out as your own.
My own.
if I have a thought about atopic that we're discussing, I
(10:40):
need to be able to own that,that topic[inaudible] and my
opinion of that topic and mypersonal experience.
So it's important that I sharemy story because it's mine and
that influences my opinion.
So when I'm sharing a story or areaction for why I feel a
(11:01):
certain way, I'm going to say Iexperienced this, which led me
to believe that.
And for me, this means that whenI'm listening to you, Jenelle,
talk about your experience beingmore of a masculine appearing
(11:21):
queer woman, I'm going to alsoassume that when you're speaking
for yourself using I statementsthat it's not you speaking for
your entire community.
And I hope that everyone woulddo the same for me and us
individually.
So as a community, I hope thatour listeners engage with us
(11:46):
using I statements and I will dothe same as much as I can.
And I hope that we can keep eachother accountable to that.
Jenelle (11:54):
Yeah, this is, this is a hard one to do.
It's a hard one to get into therhythm of to, I have to stop
myself a lot and I'll say like,well, when you know, when you do
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I mean actually when I dothis, so let me talk and I
statements and make sure thatI'm talking from my own
experience.
So I think we'll, I know that Iwill need a lot of help
(12:18):
remembering to do that becauseit's really hard for me to do
that and I try my best to, tocatch myself.
But I also ask you to help catchme and when I need to correct
myself as well.
So I'm not making statements ofgeneralization.
Gaby (12:34):
Same.
And I think it's just, it'scommon.
It's something that's used sooften and so frequently in
conversation and it's assumedthat it's easy to say like, oh
well we're friends, thereforeyou feel this way too.
But when talking about sensitiveissues like these, I think it's
(12:55):
important to take a step back,like you said, and say, okay,
let me talk from my ownexperience.
So that's using I statements.
Next up we have the fourthagreement, which is share
concerns but help us grow closertogether rather than pushing us
(13:15):
apart.
Jenelle (13:16):
MMM.
Yeah.
So, one of the things that we'regoing to ask of all of you as
our audience is to, we said itbefore, like call us out when
we're thinking about somethingwrong or there's, we're using
the wrong language or there's aplace for us to need that we
need to grow in some place andwe're going to ask you all to
(13:40):
submit voice memos to us on whatthose are.
And we will inevitably disagreewith you or you will disagree
with us.
And it's important that when youdeliver your feedback to us that
you delivered it in a way thatwe can understand and that's
(14:02):
trying to help us.
It's language that is trying tohelp us grow.
It's believing intentions, butalso being able to call us out.
We might not always agree.
In the end we might get to apoint where we can agree to
disagree, but if you deliver itwith the hope of trying to
(14:23):
educate and trying to educatethe entire audience that we have
versus taking it as a— I don'tknow how to put this exactly,
but I guess like posing it moreas a slight or or assuming wrong
intentions I guess like callingus out rather than educating us.
Gaby (14:46):
Yeah.
I think this kind of came fromsome conversations been having
recently with a lot of folks inthis space is the problem with
shaming others when, when we aretrying positive intent, when it
comes to learning and growingand supporting others.
(15:10):
It's so easy to make mistakesbut it's very common place for
folks to shame that individualattacking that person and saying
you're using the wrong language.
You're doing the wrong thing.
You don't belong as part of thisgroup of allies and advocates.
You can't be one, but it's myintention in this community to
(15:37):
start first with saying, okay, Irecognize that you are trying
here and I want to help you getto the next place where you can
learn and grow and you can takea step closer to being a good
ally and a step closer to beinga good advocate.
(15:57):
So I recognize that you aretrying, but this is how I would
like you to adapt in order to bea better ally or a better
advocate.
Jenelle (16:06):
Yeah.
It goes back to agreement numberone, which is believe best
intentions and then also, uh,agreement number three, which is
use I statements.
And I think it's important forus to know also that sometimes
when receiving feedback from ouraudience, they may not, they may
have a lot of emotions aboutthis so they may not be able to
(16:29):
practice everything that's onhere.
And so we will try really hardto follow agreement number two,
which is to listen to understandrather than listening to
respond.
Right.
Rather than if you, if, if anaudience member does share with
us that they are very upsetabout something we said or did
and there's a lot of emotionsbehind it, we will do the best
(16:49):
to try to hear through thoseemotions.
But we don't want to assumethings for you, which is why
we're creating these, that ifyou do respond, it's better to
the best that you can practiceusing I statements, practice
believing best intentions firstand then practice sharing your
thoughts or your concerns withus in a way that'll help us come
(17:11):
together rather than pulling usapart.
And I know all of these thingsare really hard to do, so we
will always give the benefit ofthe doubt and believe best
intentions, but we ask that youtry to fulfill these as well.
Gaby (17:23):
Yeah, there are a lot of dark corners of the Internet
where
Jenelle (17:26):
There are?
Gaby (17:28):
Well, trolling and escalation can happen so quickly
in an anonymous world.
And so I think understandingthat, when we disagree i n this
is e specially in this polarizedpolitical climate, when, when I
make a, when I share a story, Ihope that rather than attacking
(17:53):
me, that you will share yourperspective and your experience
with us to help me try tounderstand in a way that maybe
at the end of the day we don'tcompletely agree and that's
totally fine, but help me haveas much information in a way
that I can process it so that wecan come to, to make the best
(18:19):
decision for ourselves.
Jenelle (18:21):
I think that lends well into our final and fifth
agreement, which is respect oneanother.
Gaby (18:30):
Yeah.
This is what it comes down to atthe end of the day is it takes
so much vulnerability to be ableto talk about these issues and
these topics that are verysensitive.
Um, and we hope that all of you,our listeners will engage with
(18:50):
us in a respectful manner on allof our platforms.
That that means on social mediaas much as it means being
respectful to us in the realworld.
And that also means us beingrespectful to us are your hosts,
us to one another, Jenelle andmyself, and also means us being
(19:13):
respectful to our guests.
And then also anyone who iswilling and able to share their
comments, their voicemails oropinions on our podcast.
So please, just in general, weasked that, that, that community
that we're building, those whoare listening, those who are
engaging with us start from aplace of respect and we can move
(19:36):
on from there.
Jenelle (19:38):
And I also want to make the statement that I, I use a
lot of these agreementsactually.
I use every single one of theseagreements in my personal life
and as a leader at work as well.
Um, and if you can practice themand become good at them at, at
following these agreements andthese rules, these ground rules,
it will change a lot.
(20:01):
Um, in how you view people, onhow you can handle difficult
conversations.
Um, it's, it's really a gamechanger once you start to, to
take these on.
So I would even argue outside ofthis podcast, in the community
of this podcast, if you're outwith your friends talking about
(20:22):
what's on this podcast ortalking about a similar subject
that you've heard from this,that you try to follow along
with these agreements as well asyou listen and interact with
other people.
And um, I hope that'll not onlybe helpful for us in this
community that we're growing butalso in your personal life as
well.
Gaby (20:39):
Yeah.
I think as we go through thisjourney together of trying to
determine and define betterallyship and advocacy, not only
for us but as a community, Ihope you also just understand
that these agreements, they'regonna work for us to start and
we might need to adapt themalong the way as, as we change.
(21:01):
As our opinions change, as ourcommunity shares with, with us
their opinions.
And, um, we are going to bedifferent people tomorrow.
In fact, I, I hope we are.
The whole point is that we aregoing to grow.
So what we say today is going tobe different 10 years from now
and it means that we're going toneed to adapt these as we go
(21:25):
along.
And what we're gonna do is we,we're going to post these up on
our blog, we'll share them onour website and on all of our
social pages and if you havethoughts and ideas about other
agreements that we should add,please share them with us.
We want to know, we want to addthem and we'll add to our
(21:46):
agreements page as we feelnecessary.
Up next.
Jenelle and I are going to sharea story about the life changing
organization, that taught us touse agreements when we first
started dating back in highschool.
These tools have served usincredibly well in our
relationship.
We hope they'll serve the way welead community as much as
they've helped us.
(22:09):
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I think the fact that we'restill together is partly because
we both continue to invest intoour relationship and partly
(22:56):
because we kind of started withthis really strong foundation
with c ity at peace.
Jenelle (23:00):
Yeah.
So in high school you came to mewith a flyer or booklet or
something, um, and said, I thinkI'm going to join this thing.
It's called city at peace.
And I was like, okay, like whatis that?
And so you were explaining it tome, you're like, it's about
(23:22):
diversity and learning about,uh, how, how to be an ally and
they do theater and I want totry out for it.
And so,
Gaby (23:33):
and you looked at me like I was fucking insane
Jenelle (23:36):
a little bit.
Yeah.
Gaby (23:37):
When this person spoke about city at peace, I just felt
this pull, it was like one ofthose moments in my life that
like completely changed my life.
And at the time I remembergrappling a lot with not only my
sexuality because you and Iwere, we had just started dating
that year, but also my identityas a mixed Latina.
(24:00):
Like I was still like, well butI lived in El Salvador, I grew
up there, but I also grew uphere.
I'm not from there, I'm not fromhere.
And I felt like I was alsograppling with this whole idea
of I'm an, I'm an immigrant butI'm also a child of a true
immigrant, but I havecitizenship.
And I also felt like a lot ofcomplexities around like having
(24:24):
white privilege because I'mreally light skinned and because
my mom is white can pass forwhite.
Jenelle (24:31):
Yes.
Gaby (24:31):
So I was trying to figure out and I was like navigating
all these complex identities andlike what this meant for me.
Like what is privilege?
What does it mean to feel a partof something but not look a part
of something?
What does it feel to like, haveyou lived experience that not
everyone can see?
Jenelle (24:51):
Yup.
And so you came and you talk tome about it and
Gaby (24:56):
you weren't sure about it.
Jenelle (24:57):
No, I wasn't sure about it, but, so I, I had a lot of
issues as a kid and, and youknow, you talked about like the
space that you, I gave for youto learn and to grow and
everything.
But I as a kid felt really lostand I always looked to you for,
for guidance and you, you havehelped me grow in my
(25:21):
understanding of the world, inmy understanding of myself, in
my understanding of what itmeans to be a good person, a
good friend.
Um, and in a lot of ways how tolove yourself.
But I think we've both learnedto do that over time.
Yeah.
(25:41):
And in the very beginning, and,and I would even argue up until
even recent years, like we lovedeach other more than we loved
ourselves a lot.
And so when I was that age, Iloved you and you were part of
my identity.
And so the idea that you weregoing to go do this thing that I
(26:03):
didn't quite understand was whatwas scary to me.
Gaby (26:08):
But I think what we ended up doing is like there were
tryouts like you had to get it.
Yeah.
And you know it was probably alow bar to get in and it was
like, are you willing to try?
Jenelle (26:18):
Correct.
Gaby (26:18):
Right.
Like are you willing to show upevery day and are you willing to
try?
And you just came along with methinking like I'm going to sit
and watch the tryouts and youcan do your thing and then like
all decide if I want to do itlater.
And we show up to city obese inDC and it was at a charter
school and we walked in and itwas a big room with mirrors on
(26:43):
the walls and like piano andthere was there, there were so
many kids there.
And like the energy was justlike palpable and like everyone
had like a little bit of anervous energy cause they were
all trying out.
And I remember Sandy,
Jenelle (26:58):
The director
Gaby (27:00):
The director and she, she was like, all right y'all like
this is what we're doing today.
Like she broke it down, we'regoing to warm up and then we're
going to have singingrehearsals.
And I remember just being like,I literally don't know songs.
I don't know any song except forLas Mañanitas.
(27:20):
That's the only song I know byheart.
And I was like, what the fuck amI going to sing?
And I also like, I'm a terriblesinger, so I was really nervous
and you're saying it sitting inthe corner.
And she was like, what you,what's you doing?
You're like,
Jenelle (27:37):
I'm just watching.
Gaby (27:38):
I'm just going to be here to watch and she was...
Jenelle (27:40):
She's like, no.
Gaby (27:42):
She's like, no, we don't do that here.
Like you're going to have toparticipate or you got to go and
you were like, oh, and youweren't ready to go.
So you literally like stood upand took part.
And by the end both of us werelike, I want to get in.
And we both got in and I hopethat she and the rest of the
team know how transformativethat year was for both of us.
Jenelle (28:05):
Yeah, very much so.
Gaby (28:07):
Like it was if you could take a diversity workshop and
stretch it out six months andthen give everyone a chance to
talk deeply about their ownexperience and where they come
from and their identity and, andthe traumas that have happened
in their lives and getting tohear from a whole range of
(28:29):
humans across the spectrum ofidentity.
And it was like the combinationof like suburb kids, inner city
kids and like all of us meshingtogether and talking about our
lives.
And it was like we weredifferent classes, different
races, different ethnicities.
We were different sexualities.
It was like, and we got a chanceto talk about it in a super safe
(28:52):
space and a super safe way.
And like we learned thefoundation for how to talk about
these things in a safeenvironment
Jenelle (29:02):
in a, in a place where you could mess up and it would
be explained to you why the, why, what you said or what you did
was wrong or bad or needed to beadjusted.
Gaby (29:13):
Yeah.
And like you were never shamedfor not knowing something.
I think that was the mostimportant part of that space.
It was like we're all here tolearn, we're all here to grow
and we're all well intentionedenough to stick around and try
to work through the shit that istalking about these really
difficult topics.
(29:34):
Um, but the intention is thatwe're all going to try to help
each other figure it out.
Jenelle (29:39):
And through that I came, I grappled a lot during
that time with my own privilegeand, and
Gaby (29:49):
I think we both did
Jenelle (29:49):
yeah, I got angry at a certain point going through it
about my own privilege and thenwas able to sort of work through
that a little bit more.
Gaby (30:00):
It was almost like going through the stages of grief.
I remember talking aboutprivilege.
Jenelle (30:04):
Interesting.
Gaby (30:05):
Felt a lot like, like at first denial, like literally
like literally saying like, no,not like that's not me.
Like I had a hard life, sothat's not me.
And then like then like what are, I don't remember what all the
stages of grief are but, butthen like moving through like
anger, anger and then likeacceptance, right.
(30:28):
There's more of them.
But I remember the anger stageand shame stage of privilege
stuck around for a minute, butthen learning about how, how
white guilt, right?
Like having white guilt orprivileged guilt is actually
incredibly unproductive both foryou and for everyone else.
Jenelle (30:50):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I had that and it mademe angry and it just made it
hard for me to listen andunderstand the people on the
other side.
And so I had to get over my ownguilt and anger around it in
order to actually be able tohear other people.
(31:12):
Right?
Because, because we werelistening to stories of like
inner city kids talking aboutbeing neglected, talking about
the realities of, of the dangersof them with police.
Right?
Like talking about the realitiesof, of sexual assault.
Gaby (31:29):
addiction, abuse.
But like the thing is, it wasinteresting because that though
I think there was a higherconcentration of those things
for the kids who lived in theinner city DC.
There was also an interestingdynamic between those of us who
came from the suburbs andidentified as folks of color or
(31:52):
folks from underrepresentedbackgrounds in other ways and
our experience of of trauma andthen trying to make sense of it
because it was like I have, Ihave some trauma and it's pretty
significant but it's differentthan yours.
And acknowledging that we like,even though it was different, it
didn't make it any less valid.
Jenelle (32:13):
Yeah.
That's the important partbecause, because I had very
similar experiences, and we'lltalk about this at some point,
but like I had very diff,similar experiences to other
kids who were very differentfrom me, but they were, they
were similar in the, the natureof what happened, but different
in the fact that they were ourown experiences.
Right.
And, and different in how thatmanifested for them.
(32:36):
Right.
So it was interesting to be inthat world where I say like, you
and I are very similar but alsoso different.
Gaby (32:42):
Yeah.
Jenelle (32:42):
And we can bond on the similarities, but I also need to
recognize the differences.
Gaby (32:49):
Yeah, Yeah.
And I think at the end of theday, I think the most
significant piece of city atpeace was learning all of these
different terms and likeunderstanding, like getting,
like doing the like man in a boxand woman in a flower activity.
Like trying to understand likesexism and like expectations for
(33:10):
people from various genders andlike understanding like
heteronormativity it's like itwas like a baby sociology class.
If you think about it, like,
Jenelle (33:18):
Yeah.
Gaby (33:18):
But like on a super practical scale, it wasn't heady
at all.
It was like, let's learn aboutsome of the like shared language
that we can then use to talkabout our own experiences.
And then everyone would sharetheir own personal stories.
And once they've shared theirpersonal stories, like we had,
like people would share theirown poetry, their own music,
their own, um, monologues andthings like that.
(33:40):
And then we would turn people'sstories into a play, a musical.
And that was probably thecoolest experience because when
we were turning into a play, wecould never play ourselves.
We had to play somebody else'sidentity.
And it's like you get to stepinto someone else's world and
(34:01):
like complete and total empathy,right?
Jenelle (34:04):
Yeah.
In order to act out that role,you had to empathize with it to
understand.
Gaby (34:10):
Yeah.
You had, you had to be able toput yourselves in that person's
life and that person's shoes andthen walk it on stage and like
you wanted to do their storyjustice.
Jenelle (34:22):
Yeah.
Because you were doing, you wereessentially doing somebody
else's story in the room.
Gaby (34:27):
Yeah.
And they were probably doingyours.
And so by doing that, it forcedus to step outside ourselves and
look at other people'sexperiences in a completely
different way.
Jenelle (34:39):
Yeah.
Also I am not an actor.
So it was like, and most of thekids weren't right.
Like this was, this was atheater thing and the point of
it wasn't for it to be amazing,but it was for the experiences
and the stories that we couldmake.
Gaby (34:55):
Yeah.
I would say that the plays werepowerful.
They weren't like technical inour, our acting, but they were
powerful and none of us weresingers.
Like some of us, like you andlike some other folks who were
like just really good singers,got a lot more solos.
But the group of us still, itwas a musical.
So we had to sing, but we sangit together and it was again,
(35:18):
like the words and the lyricsthat meant something.
And I just remember every timeafterwards that we would go to
see a CD at peace play, it feltequally as powerful to me as the
first time that I played in one.
Right.
And it was, it was just likesomething super special that to
(35:39):
me, laid the groundwork for ourrelationship because we learned
to, um, have a foundation ofwhat we called agreements at
city at peace about how we'regoing to talk to one another,
Jenelle (35:58):
how we're going to talk to one another
Gaby (35:59):
and engage with one another
Jenelle (36:00):
Yeah, how we're going to talk to one another, how
we're going to listen to oneanother.
Gaby (36:03):
Yeah.
And also how we deal withconflict.
Like when conflict arose, whichit arose a lot, like there was
some intense shit that went onin that room and like, we didn't
just let it fester and linger.
Like sandy would literally likepull two people out from the
circle.
I'm be like, you too now in themiddle, talk to me about what's
happening.
(36:24):
They'd call it out.
It was like, oh, like in orderto deal with problems you
actually have to
Jenelle (36:31):
deal with problems
Gaby (36:32):
Hash them out Yeah.
And it was just reallyinteresting because we learned
conflict resolution.
Like I remember learning theiceberg model about like how a
conflict, what you see of aconflict is the like little peak
above the water and it's barelyany of like what's happening in
(36:52):
your, like, visibly in theconflict is actually probably
only the beginning.
Jenelle (36:57):
Yeah.
Whether it's deep of like amisunderstanding or whether it's
deep of your own trauma and whyit's upsetting to you.
Right?
Like what's the psychologicalsort of thing that's going on
behind this of why the conflictis what it is, right?
Like whenever you have aconflict, whenever we have a
conflict, it's never about theother person.
It's about us.
(37:17):
Right?
Like something about that is, istriggering something in me.
Gaby (37:23):
Yeah.
Jenelle (37:23):
And that is why it is upsetting.
Right?
Like either I can't get oversomething about it and because
it hurts me in this way becauseof my experience with x and it
makes me feel y.
And if you don't learn thosethings, if you don't understand,
I think the iceberg images is areally great, right.
Like, and you all have probablyseen this as listeners, you've
(37:45):
got the tip of the icebergsticking out, but the iceberg is
actually huge underneath thewater.
Gaby (37:52):
Yeah.
It's much more likely to be likethe more significant piece of
what's going on.
Jenelle (37:57):
Right.
And it's very similar inpsychology to a very Freudian
mindset of sort of what you seeis the, the Id, right?
Sort of like what you presentand then everything else
underneath is sort of the, theego and different aspects of who
you are.
And so the conflict itself is,is such a small portion of
(38:19):
what's actually going on.
Gaby (38:20):
Yeah.
So we're like, what, 16, 17 atthat point?
Jenelle (38:24):
Uh, yeah, I think so.
Gaby (38:25):
And we were a group of maybe 50 kids between the ages
of, you had to be at least 13.
Jenelle (38:30):
I think it was between the ages of 13 and 19 yeah.
Gaby (38:33):
It was just so impactful for how I ran my life.
It like our relationship, myrelationship with my parents,
how I dealt with conflictoutside and at work later on in
life, how I dealt with myfriendships.
We still use it in our marriagelike all the time.
Jenelle (38:52):
We have also used this as a foundation for how we have
built relationships with otherpeople, how we uh, how we lead,
how we have friendships, how we,it has set the foundation for
who we are in a lot of ways.
Gaby (39:08):
Yeah.
Jenelle (39:09):
And we would practice what we were learning, right?
Because we, I mean we weredating while we were going
through all this and we hadconflict and so we had to
practice, and you would have tocall me out on things to where
you're like, remember to listeneven if it hurts.
Gaby (39:25):
Yeah.
You use I statements like you'renot using I statements.
Like, don't tell me you do thiswhen in fact it's what you do.
Jenelle (39:31):
Yeah.
Gaby (39:32):
I'm just hoping that we can continue to use that
foundation to have these reallydifficult conversations because
we're always, I think City atPeace the way that they
structured things.
I would really like to kind ofhave those same types of
conversations on this podcastnow as an adult about, you know,
(39:52):
what identity means, likecreating a communal language,
creating a space that is safe todiscuss these topics that aren't
always easy.
And then also to look atexamples of people who are doing
it really well, who are beinginclusive leaders who are
talking about, um, and doing andactively supporting folks by
(40:13):
leveraging their own influenceand helping other people rise
up.
Initially when I left my job Ithought, okay, I'm going to go
freelance, I'm going to do somefreelance marketing, I'm going
do some freelance consulting,which I am doing.
Um, and I'm, I want to do a lotof a focus on social impact
organizations so that I cancontinue to talk about these
(40:35):
things.
But in reality for me, where Iwant to drive my life is to, to
find a way to talk aboutinclusivity and help other
people build inclusivity intotheir lives, into their
environments and workspaces andorganizations and, and
communities.
Because it means so much to me.
And it's just really fun beingable to like use these tools to
(40:59):
continue to investigate and likebe curious about each other and,
and the world and like also thepeople around us.
Jenelle (41:06):
One of the things that city at peace taught me was how
to be open to other people andnot necessarily vulnerable to
other people.
Um, even though I think thatthat's important, but how to be
open to other people's stories.
And that's a really hard thingto do because as humans, I think
(41:27):
we're in an inherently selfishand think that the world
revolves around us, right?
Like we, it is, I can't readother people's minds, right?
So I have to live in my ownworld, but there's so much going
on outside of our ourselves inour own experience.
And so for me, my hope is tohelp other people just inch
(41:50):
closer to wanting to understandother people.
Learning to take a pause whenyou're looking at a situation
just from your own perspectiveand, and learning to take in and
ask the question of theperspective of those that are
around you.
Yeah.
Gaby (42:08):
That's my hope too.
Thanks for joining us on thisweek's episode about our
community ground rules.
We hope you enjoyed learningabout where they come from and
how we use them in our lives.
We'd love to hear from all ofyou.
Visit our website thewaywelead.com and share a voice memo on
our contact us page.
Give us your feedback.
Let us know what ground rulesyou think we might be missing
(42:29):
while you're on the site.
Subscribe to our newsletter forsome additional behind the
scenes material.
It comes out every other weekalternating with our episodes.
If you want to get Super Meta, Ihear additional behind the
scenes conversations betweenJenelle and me about our fears,
excitements, and backstories asa couple, sign up to become a
monthly patron by clicking ourpatreon button on the top right
(42:49):
of the website.
This episode was produced by me,Gaby Acosta and co-hosted by my
lovely wife Jenelle Acosta.
Our music was written andproduced by the Fabulous Emily
Henry.
Special thanks go out to our 30for 30 accelerators who made
this all possible.
Here's Jenelle singing thisweek's list of seed fund
sponsors.
Jenelle (43:13):
Adrienne and Stephen Inger-Goss, Allen Stairs.
Hi Dad.
Barbara Acosta.
Gaby (43:19):
Hey Mom.
Jenelle (43:22):
Ben Posner, Brigette Fine, Brittany Witcher.
[Dog Barks] Every time.
Gaby (43:27):
I'm Gaby Acosta, and I'll see you next time.
These agreements have changed the way that we not only
talk to each other, but alsoargue with each other, which I
think is really important.
All couples fight and allcouples have disagreements and
all couples will go throughdifficult times and we
absolutely have gone throughthose and we have always stood
(00:23):
by these ground rules in orderto help us through.
Gaby (00:29):
Hola Hola, it's Gaby Acosta.
Jenelle (00:30):
And me, Jenelle Acosta We're high school sweethearts on
a journey to be better allies.
Gaby (00:35):
You're listening to The Way We Lead where we talk about
inclusive leadership, allyship,and advocacy with folks across
identities, industries, andexperiences.
Jenelle (00:45):
If you're new here, Welcome! You can follow us on
Facebook, Instagram, and Twitterusing the handle@thewaywelead.
Gaby (00:52):
We're glad you're here.
Let's jump in.
Hey everybody.
Jenelle (01:01):
Hey friendships.
Gaby (01:02):
I've got my lovely foxy wife over here.
Jenelle (01:06):
Ooh, I'm foxy?
Oh like this.
Gaby (01:08):
Always.
Jenelle (01:09):
This is fun.
Gaby (01:09):
My foxy wife.
Jenelle (01:11):
You can call me foxy.
Gaby (01:14):
And today we're talking about agreements! Agreements,
and also what we're callingground rules or rules for
engagement.
This is the episode where we'retalking about how to set the
tone for the conversations thatwe're going to be having on this
podcast, which are, I would saychallenging at times.
(01:34):
We're going to be talking aboutsome sensitive topics, identity,
power, privilege, complexissues.
And in order to do that, justlike making sure that we have
trust with one another in arelationship, in a romantic one
or in a friendship, we have tohave a foundation that we can
(01:54):
all agree upon so that we canunderstand how to relate to one
another and talk to one anotherand have conflicts in a
meaningful way so that we canmove forward rather than get
stuck and move backwards andbreak things apart.
Jenelle (02:12):
mmhmm, I was trying to think about how to explain this
to other people and I think thebest way to do it is we all have
very different expectationsbecause of the way that we grew
up or the way that we were, y ouk now, sort of the environment
that we were around.
And if we don't state ourexpectations of each other out
(02:33):
loud, then we don't know how tohold each other accountable.
And so this is us stating ourexpectations not only of
ourselves but of our guests andhopefully you all as our a
udiences a s well.
Gaby (02:47):
Yeah.
If you think about it, thispodcasting journey is building a
relationship with a wholecommunity of people.
So we're taking what we, you andI, put into practice in our
relationship and applying it toour community of folks and we
hope that all of y'all listenerswill join us in participating in
(03:11):
these agreements when we haveconversations.
So we're going to break themdown.
Um, and later on what we'regoing to do is talk about where
these agreements came frombecause we built this foundation
from an experience that Jenelleand I had back when we were in
high school that really set thetone for who we are as people
and in our relationship.
And we want to share a littlebit of our backstory with y'all.
Jenelle (03:33):
Y ep.
Some of t his is something thatwe use e very d ay in our
relationship.
And some of this is things thatwe think are appropriate for
this audience.
So you, want to jump in?
Gaby (03:44):
Yeah, let's do it.
Okay.
Jenelle (03:45):
So agreement number one, believe best intentions
first.
How would you describe that?
Gaby (03:54):
I think this one is about intention.
It's about knowing that we'rehere to have meaningful
conversations and we're notalways going to get it right.
Sometimes our unconsciousbiases, which we all have, are
going to show themselves and ourconversations.
We're going to slip up, we'regoing to say things that aren't
(04:17):
quote unquote perfect.
And we're, we're navigating somecomplicated questions and we're
gonna do our best and, and usethe language that we have and
start where we're at now, right?
And our goal is to have ajourney.
So right now our intention is tolearn, it's to participate, it's
to engage, and then let us growand learn as we go.
(04:41):
So if we slip up, we're sorry.
Know that we do not mean to hurtor harm anyone and that we hope
that you recognize that we'renot perfect, but we're, we're
doing our best and we're here tolearn and, please give us room
to do so.
Jenelle (05:01):
And also call us out.
U m, I think one of my favoritethings that we're trying to do
is we're g oing t o a sked youall to talk to us back about
what are you feeling, thinking,what have you tried on, where do
we need to improve?
U m, and so if we're using thewrong language or thinking of
things in a way that you mightbelieve is wrong or incorrect,
(05:25):
let us know and we can start totalk about that.
Because the point of this is forus to learn, to learn from our
guests, and then also to helpthe audience learn as well.
Gaby (05:33):
Yeah.
Jenelle (05:33):
So we're always going to go with our best intentions
and sometimes our bestintentions will be wrong and we
want to fix that.
Gaby (05:39):
Absolutely.
And when you share your feedbackwith us, we'll assume the same
of you.
We want to have positiveintentions with the comments
that we're hearing from ourlisteners.
Jenelle (05:49):
Exactly.
Gaby (05:51):
All right.
Moving on to agreement numbertwo: listen to understand rather
than listening to respond.
Jenelle (06:00):
So this is one of my favorite agreements that we
have.
It stems from something thatwe've had in our relationship
for a long time, um, which isthe idea that you need to listen
even if it hurts.
It's not that if it is hurtingyou for some reason or if it's
triggering you for some reason,you're allowed to take care of
(06:22):
yourself and step away.
But sometimes we might betalking about something that's
difficult for you to swallowthat you may not, you're sort of
fighting with internally becauseyou either believe it or you
don't believe it or you're, it'sa struggle of your own identity.
And the goal should be tolisten, to try to understand
(06:46):
what they're saying.
Because I think a lot of thetime the, the first feeling is
to get upset or be angry.
Or hearing it.
And it triggers you in a waythat you, you want to respond to
that you want to defendyourself.
But the point isn't to defendyourself.
The point is to hear the otherperson's perspective.
Gaby (07:08):
Yeah, and I've been thinking about this one a lot
actually recently.
A lot of the time what someoneis saying isn't the words that
they're saying.
It's the intention or themeaning behind those words.
And that takes deeper listeninginstead of making an assumption
based on what words are comingout of someone's mouth, it's
(07:28):
important to me to try tounderstand and listen harder to
what's going on behind thatinitial message.
Jenelle (07:38):
I have a real life example of this.
Gaby (07:40):
Yeah.
Jenelle (07:41):
So you were having, I would identify you as an, uh, an
introvert.
I think you identify yourself asthat as well there.
Gaby (07:49):
Correct.
Jenelle (07:50):
And we were in a time where, um, you didn't have
introvert time.
And so I was being my normal,annoying, obnoxious self with
you and asking all thesequestions and you were like
googling something on your phoneand I was like, what are you
doing?
What are you looking at?
And you finally turned to me andjust what?
Why you always gotta ask mequestions.
(08:10):
Why can't I just live my life?
Like what's going on?
Like why do you got to bug meall the time?
I don't understand.
And I laughed so hard because Ijust went, you need alone time,
don't you?
This isn't about me.
This is about your needs.
And you were like, yes it is.
And like we have learned to dothat over time because we're in
a relationship.
But I think that that's anexample of you were in that
(08:31):
moment technically attacking me.
You were saying like you'remessing everything up.
Like why do you do this to me?
Gaby (08:37):
Okay, I didn't use those words.
Jenelle (08:38):
You you didn't.
But like the idea was...
Gaby (08:40):
I said,"let me live! Can't you just let me live?"
Jenelle (08:44):
But the point was like you were, you were having an
emotion and it was aimed towardsme and I was able to look at
that and know that it wasn'tabout me.
It was you.
Gaby (08:55):
100%
Jenelle (08:56):
and that takes a lot of time to know how to do on a
regular basis in practice.
But it's a good example ofsometimes things will be talked
about that may feel like it'sabout you or to trigger to you,
your culture, your identity,your group.
Listen to understand whatthey're trying to say first.
Gaby (09:19):
Yeah
Jenelle (09:19):
And then the next step is to respond.
Gaby (09:22):
Absolutely.
It doesn't mean that you can'tget upset because something was
said in a way that that hurtyou.
Jenelle (09:29):
Correct.
(09:29):
But it does mean trying to hear what the other person's
intention was first and thenwith kindness and love.
Respect.
Which leads us to....
Jenelle (09:44):
Agreement number three: use"I" statements.
Gaby (09:49):
I love this agreement.
This is an important one.
And I think especially in thebeginning when I was learning to
navigate the world of socialjustice and conversations around
power, race, privilege, etCetera, it felt really difficult
to...
I had a hard time not makinggeneralizations or statements
(10:14):
that I was like, well, we allfeel this way, right?
We all make assumptions.
I made a lot of assumptions atthat time about where everyone
else was coming from, but infact, it's really important to
talk about your own experienceand your own opinion and call it
out as your own.
My own.
if I have a thought about atopic that we're discussing, I
(10:40):
need to be able to own that,that topic[inaudible] and my
opinion of that topic and mypersonal experience.
So it's important that I sharemy story because it's mine and
that influences my opinion.
So when I'm sharing a story or areaction for why I feel a
(11:01):
certain way, I'm going to say Iexperienced this, which led me
to believe that.
And for me, this means that whenI'm listening to you, Jenelle,
talk about your experience beingmore of a masculine appearing
(11:21):
queer woman, I'm going to alsoassume that when you're speaking
for yourself using I statementsthat it's not you speaking for
your entire community.
And I hope that everyone woulddo the same for me and us
individually.
So as a community, I hope thatour listeners engage with us
(11:46):
using I statements and I will dothe same as much as I can.
And I hope that we can keep eachother accountable to that.
Jenelle (11:54):
Yeah, this is, this is a hard one to do.
It's a hard one to get into therhythm of to, I have to stop
myself a lot and I'll say like,well, when you know, when you do
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I mean actually when I dothis, so let me talk and I
statements and make sure thatI'm talking from my own
experience.
So I think we'll, I know that Iwill need a lot of help
(12:18):
remembering to do that becauseit's really hard for me to do
that and I try my best to, tocatch myself.
But I also ask you to help catchme and when I need to correct
myself as well.
So I'm not making statements ofgeneralization.
Gaby (12:34):
Same.
And I think it's just, it'scommon.
It's something that's used sooften and so frequently in
conversation and it's assumedthat it's easy to say like, oh
well we're friends, thereforeyou feel this way too.
But when talking about sensitiveissues like these, I think it's
(12:55):
important to take a step back,like you said, and say, okay,
let me talk from my ownexperience.
So that's using I statements.
Next up we have the fourthagreement, which is share
concerns but help us grow closertogether rather than pushing us
(13:15):
apart.
Jenelle (13:16):
MMM.
Yeah.
So, one of the things that we'regoing to ask of all of you as
our audience is to, we said itbefore, like call us out when
we're thinking about somethingwrong or there's, we're using
the wrong language or there's aplace for us to need that we
need to grow in some place andwe're going to ask you all to
(13:40):
submit voice memos to us on whatthose are.
And we will inevitably disagreewith you or you will disagree
with us.
And it's important that when youdeliver your feedback to us that
you delivered it in a way thatwe can understand and that's
(14:02):
trying to help us.
It's language that is trying tohelp us grow.
It's believing intentions, butalso being able to call us out.
We might not always agree.
In the end we might get to apoint where we can agree to
disagree, but if you deliver itwith the hope of trying to
(14:23):
educate and trying to educatethe entire audience that we have
versus taking it as a— I don'tknow how to put this exactly,
but I guess like posing it moreas a slight or or assuming wrong
intentions I guess like callingus out rather than educating us.
Gaby (14:46):
Yeah.
I think this kind of came fromsome conversations been having
recently with a lot of folks inthis space is the problem with
shaming others when, when we aretrying positive intent, when it
comes to learning and growingand supporting others.
(15:10):
It's so easy to make mistakesbut it's very common place for
folks to shame that individualattacking that person and saying
you're using the wrong language.
You're doing the wrong thing.
You don't belong as part of thisgroup of allies and advocates.
You can't be one, but it's myintention in this community to
(15:37):
start first with saying, okay, Irecognize that you are trying
here and I want to help you getto the next place where you can
learn and grow and you can takea step closer to being a good
ally and a step closer to beinga good advocate.
(15:57):
So I recognize that you aretrying, but this is how I would
like you to adapt in order to bea better ally or a better
advocate.
Jenelle (16:06):
Yeah.
It goes back to agreement numberone, which is believe best
intentions and then also, uh,agreement number three, which is
use I statements.
And I think it's important forus to know also that sometimes
when receiving feedback from ouraudience, they may not, they may
have a lot of emotions aboutthis so they may not be able to
(16:29):
practice everything that's onhere.
And so we will try really hardto follow agreement number two,
which is to listen to understandrather than listening to
respond.
Right.
Rather than if you, if, if anaudience member does share with
us that they are very upsetabout something we said or did
and there's a lot of emotionsbehind it, we will do the best
(16:49):
to try to hear through thoseemotions.
But we don't want to assumethings for you, which is why
we're creating these, that ifyou do respond, it's better to
the best that you can practiceusing I statements, practice
believing best intentions firstand then practice sharing your
thoughts or your concerns withus in a way that'll help us come
(17:11):
together rather than pulling usapart.
And I know all of these thingsare really hard to do, so we
will always give the benefit ofthe doubt and believe best
intentions, but we ask that youtry to fulfill these as well.
Gaby (17:23):
Yeah, there are a lot of dark corners of the Internet
where
Jenelle (17:26):
There are?
Gaby (17:28):
Well, trolling and escalation can happen so quickly
in an anonymous world.
And so I think understandingthat, when we disagree i n this
is e specially in this polarizedpolitical climate, when, when I
make a, when I share a story, Ihope that rather than attacking
(17:53):
me, that you will share yourperspective and your experience
with us to help me try tounderstand in a way that maybe
at the end of the day we don'tcompletely agree and that's
totally fine, but help me haveas much information in a way
that I can process it so that wecan come to, to make the best
(18:19):
decision for ourselves.
Jenelle (18:21):
I think that lends well into our final and fifth
agreement, which is respect oneanother.
Gaby (18:30):
Yeah.
This is what it comes down to atthe end of the day is it takes
so much vulnerability to be ableto talk about these issues and
these topics that are verysensitive.
Um, and we hope that all of you,our listeners will engage with
(18:50):
us in a respectful manner on allof our platforms.
That that means on social mediaas much as it means being
respectful to us in the realworld.
And that also means us beingrespectful to us are your hosts,
us to one another, Jenelle andmyself, and also means us being
(19:13):
respectful to our guests.
And then also anyone who iswilling and able to share their
comments, their voicemails oropinions on our podcast.
So please, just in general, weasked that, that, that community
that we're building, those whoare listening, those who are
engaging with us start from aplace of respect and we can move
(19:36):
on from there.
Jenelle (19:38):
And I also want to make the statement that I, I use a
lot of these agreementsactually.
I use every single one of theseagreements in my personal life
and as a leader at work as well.
Um, and if you can practice themand become good at them at, at
following these agreements andthese rules, these ground rules,
it will change a lot.
(20:01):
Um, in how you view people, onhow you can handle difficult
conversations.
Um, it's, it's really a gamechanger once you start to, to
take these on.
So I would even argue outside ofthis podcast, in the community
of this podcast, if you're outwith your friends talking about
(20:22):
what's on this podcast ortalking about a similar subject
that you've heard from this,that you try to follow along
with these agreements as well asyou listen and interact with
other people.
And um, I hope that'll not onlybe helpful for us in this
community that we're growing butalso in your personal life as
well.
Gaby (20:39):
Yeah.
I think as we go through thisjourney together of trying to
determine and define betterallyship and advocacy, not only
for us but as a community, Ihope you also just understand
that these agreements, they'regonna work for us to start and
we might need to adapt themalong the way as, as we change.
(21:01):
As our opinions change, as ourcommunity shares with, with us
their opinions.
And, um, we are going to bedifferent people tomorrow.
In fact, I, I hope we are.
The whole point is that we aregoing to grow.
So what we say today is going tobe different 10 years from now
and it means that we're going toneed to adapt these as we go
(21:25):
along.
And what we're gonna do is we,we're going to post these up on
our blog, we'll share them onour website and on all of our
social pages and if you havethoughts and ideas about other
agreements that we should add,please share them with us.
We want to know, we want to addthem and we'll add to our
(21:46):
agreements page as we feelnecessary.
Up next.
Jenelle and I are going to sharea story about the life changing
organization, that taught us touse agreements when we first
started dating back in highschool.
These tools have served usincredibly well in our
relationship.
We hope they'll serve the way welead community as much as
they've helped us.
(22:09):
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I think the fact that we'restill together is partly because
we both continue to invest intoour relationship and partly
(22:56):
because we kind of started withthis really strong foundation
with c ity at peace.
Jenelle (23:00):
Yeah.
So in high school you came to mewith a flyer or booklet or
something, um, and said, I thinkI'm going to join this thing.
It's called city at peace.
And I was like, okay, like whatis that?
And so you were explaining it tome, you're like, it's about
(23:22):
diversity and learning about,uh, how, how to be an ally and
they do theater and I want totry out for it.
And so,
Gaby (23:33):
and you looked at me like I was fucking insane
Jenelle (23:36):
a little bit.
Yeah.
Gaby (23:37):
When this person spoke about city at peace, I just felt
this pull, it was like one ofthose moments in my life that
like completely changed my life.
And at the time I remembergrappling a lot with not only my
sexuality because you and Iwere, we had just started dating
that year, but also my identityas a mixed Latina.
(24:00):
Like I was still like, well butI lived in El Salvador, I grew
up there, but I also grew uphere.
I'm not from there, I'm not fromhere.
And I felt like I was alsograppling with this whole idea
of I'm an, I'm an immigrant butI'm also a child of a true
immigrant, but I havecitizenship.
And I also felt like a lot ofcomplexities around like having
(24:24):
white privilege because I'mreally light skinned and because
my mom is white can pass forwhite.
Jenelle (24:31):
Yes.
Gaby (24:31):
So I was trying to figure out and I was like navigating
all these complex identities andlike what this meant for me.
Like what is privilege?
What does it mean to feel a partof something but not look a part
of something?
What does it feel to like, haveyou lived experience that not
everyone can see?
Jenelle (24:51):
Yup.
And so you came and you talk tome about it and
Gaby (24:56):
you weren't sure about it.
Jenelle (24:57):
No, I wasn't sure about it, but, so I, I had a lot of
issues as a kid and, and youknow, you talked about like the
space that you, I gave for youto learn and to grow and
everything.
But I as a kid felt really lostand I always looked to you for,
for guidance and you, you havehelped me grow in my
(25:21):
understanding of the world, inmy understanding of myself, in
my understanding of what itmeans to be a good person, a
good friend.
Um, and in a lot of ways how tolove yourself.
But I think we've both learnedto do that over time.
Yeah.
(25:41):
And in the very beginning, and,and I would even argue up until
even recent years, like we lovedeach other more than we loved
ourselves a lot.
And so when I was that age, Iloved you and you were part of
my identity.
And so the idea that you weregoing to go do this thing that I
(26:03):
didn't quite understand was whatwas scary to me.
Gaby (26:08):
But I think what we ended up doing is like there were
tryouts like you had to get it.
Yeah.
And you know it was probably alow bar to get in and it was
like, are you willing to try?
Jenelle (26:18):
Correct.
Gaby (26:18):
Right.
Like are you willing to show upevery day and are you willing to
try?
And you just came along with methinking like I'm going to sit
and watch the tryouts and youcan do your thing and then like
all decide if I want to do itlater.
And we show up to city obese inDC and it was at a charter
school and we walked in and itwas a big room with mirrors on
(26:43):
the walls and like piano andthere was there, there were so
many kids there.
And like the energy was justlike palpable and like everyone
had like a little bit of anervous energy cause they were
all trying out.
And I remember Sandy,
Jenelle (26:58):
The director
Gaby (27:00):
The director and she, she was like, all right y'all like
this is what we're doing today.
Like she broke it down, we'regoing to warm up and then we're
going to have singingrehearsals.
And I remember just being like,I literally don't know songs.
I don't know any song except forLas Mañanitas.
(27:20):
That's the only song I know byheart.
And I was like, what the fuck amI going to sing?
And I also like, I'm a terriblesinger, so I was really nervous
and you're saying it sitting inthe corner.
And she was like, what you,what's you doing?
You're like,
Jenelle (27:37):
I'm just watching.
Gaby (27:38):
I'm just going to be here to watch and she was...
Jenelle (27:40):
She's like, no.
Gaby (27:42):
She's like, no, we don't do that here.
Like you're going to have toparticipate or you got to go and
you were like, oh, and youweren't ready to go.
So you literally like stood upand took part.
And by the end both of us werelike, I want to get in.
And we both got in and I hopethat she and the rest of the
team know how transformativethat year was for both of us.
Jenelle (28:05):
Yeah, very much so.
Gaby (28:07):
Like it was if you could take a diversity workshop and
stretch it out six months andthen give everyone a chance to
talk deeply about their ownexperience and where they come
from and their identity and, andthe traumas that have happened
in their lives and getting tohear from a whole range of
(28:29):
humans across the spectrum ofidentity.
And it was like the combinationof like suburb kids, inner city
kids and like all of us meshingtogether and talking about our
lives.
And it was like we weredifferent classes, different
races, different ethnicities.
We were different sexualities.
It was like, and we got a chanceto talk about it in a super safe
(28:52):
space and a super safe way.
And like we learned thefoundation for how to talk about
these things in a safeenvironment
Jenelle (29:02):
in a, in a place where you could mess up and it would
be explained to you why the, why, what you said or what you did
was wrong or bad or needed to beadjusted.
Gaby (29:13):
Yeah.
And like you were never shamedfor not knowing something.
I think that was the mostimportant part of that space.
It was like we're all here tolearn, we're all here to grow
and we're all well intentionedenough to stick around and try
to work through the shit that istalking about these really
difficult topics.
(29:34):
Um, but the intention is thatwe're all going to try to help
each other figure it out.
Jenelle (29:39):
And through that I came, I grappled a lot during
that time with my own privilegeand, and
Gaby (29:49):
I think we both did
Jenelle (29:49):
yeah, I got angry at a certain point going through it
about my own privilege and thenwas able to sort of work through
that a little bit more.
Gaby (30:00):
It was almost like going through the stages of grief.
I remember talking aboutprivilege.
Jenelle (30:04):
Interesting.
Gaby (30:05):
Felt a lot like, like at first denial, like literally
like literally saying like, no,not like that's not me.
Like I had a hard life, sothat's not me.
And then like then like what are, I don't remember what all the
stages of grief are but, butthen like moving through like
anger, anger and then likeacceptance, right.
(30:28):
There's more of them.
But I remember the anger stageand shame stage of privilege
stuck around for a minute, butthen learning about how, how
white guilt, right?
Like having white guilt orprivileged guilt is actually
incredibly unproductive both foryou and for everyone else.
Jenelle (30:50):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I had that and it mademe angry and it just made it
hard for me to listen andunderstand the people on the
other side.
And so I had to get over my ownguilt and anger around it in
order to actually be able tohear other people.
(31:12):
Right?
Because, because we werelistening to stories of like
inner city kids talking aboutbeing neglected, talking about
the realities of, of the dangersof them with police.
Right?
Like talking about the realitiesof, of sexual assault.
Gaby (31:29):
addiction, abuse.
But like the thing is, it wasinteresting because that though
I think there was a higherconcentration of those things
for the kids who lived in theinner city DC.
There was also an interestingdynamic between those of us who
came from the suburbs andidentified as folks of color or
(31:52):
folks from underrepresentedbackgrounds in other ways and
our experience of of trauma andthen trying to make sense of it
because it was like I have, Ihave some trauma and it's pretty
significant but it's differentthan yours.
And acknowledging that we like,even though it was different, it
didn't make it any less valid.
Jenelle (32:13):
Yeah.
That's the important partbecause, because I had very
similar experiences, and we'lltalk about this at some point,
but like I had very diff,similar experiences to other
kids who were very differentfrom me, but they were, they
were similar in the, the natureof what happened, but different
in the fact that they were ourown experiences.
Right.
And, and different in how thatmanifested for them.
(32:36):
Right.
So it was interesting to be inthat world where I say like, you
and I are very similar but alsoso different.
Gaby (32:42):
Yeah.
Jenelle (32:42):
And we can bond on the similarities, but I also need to
recognize the differences.
Gaby (32:49):
Yeah, Yeah.
And I think at the end of theday, I think the most
significant piece of city atpeace was learning all of these
different terms and likeunderstanding, like getting,
like doing the like man in a boxand woman in a flower activity.
Like trying to understand likesexism and like expectations for
(33:10):
people from various genders andlike understanding like
heteronormativity it's like itwas like a baby sociology class.
If you think about it, like,
Jenelle (33:18):
Yeah.
Gaby (33:18):
But like on a super practical scale, it wasn't heady
at all.
It was like, let's learn aboutsome of the like shared language
that we can then use to talkabout our own experiences.
And then everyone would sharetheir own personal stories.
And once they've shared theirpersonal stories, like we had,
like people would share theirown poetry, their own music,
their own, um, monologues andthings like that.
(33:40):
And then we would turn people'sstories into a play, a musical.
And that was probably thecoolest experience because when
we were turning into a play, wecould never play ourselves.
We had to play somebody else'sidentity.
And it's like you get to stepinto someone else's world and
(34:01):
like complete and total empathy,right?
Jenelle (34:04):
Yeah.
In order to act out that role,you had to empathize with it to
understand.
Gaby (34:10):
Yeah.
You had, you had to be able toput yourselves in that person's
life and that person's shoes andthen walk it on stage and like
you wanted to do their storyjustice.
Jenelle (34:22):
Yeah.
Because you were doing, you wereessentially doing somebody
else's story in the room.
Gaby (34:27):
Yeah.
And they were probably doingyours.
And so by doing that, it forcedus to step outside ourselves and
look at other people'sexperiences in a completely
different way.
Jenelle (34:39):
Yeah.
Also I am not an actor.
So it was like, and most of thekids weren't right.
Like this was, this was atheater thing and the point of
it wasn't for it to be amazing,but it was for the experiences
and the stories that we couldmake.
Gaby (34:55):
Yeah.
I would say that the plays werepowerful.
They weren't like technical inour, our acting, but they were
powerful and none of us weresingers.
Like some of us, like you andlike some other folks who were
like just really good singers,got a lot more solos.
But the group of us still, itwas a musical.
So we had to sing, but we sangit together and it was again,
(35:18):
like the words and the lyricsthat meant something.
And I just remember every timeafterwards that we would go to
see a CD at peace play, it feltequally as powerful to me as the
first time that I played in one.
Right.
And it was, it was just likesomething super special that to
(35:39):
me, laid the groundwork for ourrelationship because we learned
to, um, have a foundation ofwhat we called agreements at
city at peace about how we'regoing to talk to one another,
Jenelle (35:58):
how we're going to talk to one another
Gaby (35:59):
and engage with one another
Jenelle (36:00):
Yeah, how we're going to talk to one another, how
we're going to listen to oneanother.
Gaby (36:03):
Yeah.
And also how we deal withconflict.
Like when conflict arose, whichit arose a lot, like there was
some intense shit that went onin that room and like, we didn't
just let it fester and linger.
Like sandy would literally likepull two people out from the
circle.
I'm be like, you too now in themiddle, talk to me about what's
happening.
(36:24):
They'd call it out.
It was like, oh, like in orderto deal with problems you
actually have to
Jenelle (36:31):
deal with problems
Gaby (36:32):
Hash them out Yeah.
And it was just reallyinteresting because we learned
conflict resolution.
Like I remember learning theiceberg model about like how a
conflict, what you see of aconflict is the like little peak
above the water and it's barelyany of like what's happening in
(36:52):
your, like, visibly in theconflict is actually probably
only the beginning.
Jenelle (36:57):
Yeah.
Whether it's deep of like amisunderstanding or whether it's
deep of your own trauma and whyit's upsetting to you.
Right?
Like what's the psychologicalsort of thing that's going on
behind this of why the conflictis what it is, right?
Like whenever you have aconflict, whenever we have a
conflict, it's never about theother person.
It's about us.
(37:17):
Right?
Like something about that is, istriggering something in me.
Gaby (37:23):
Yeah.
Jenelle (37:23):
And that is why it is upsetting.
Right?
Like either I can't get oversomething about it and because
it hurts me in this way becauseof my experience with x and it
makes me feel y.
And if you don't learn thosethings, if you don't understand,
I think the iceberg images is areally great, right.
Like, and you all have probablyseen this as listeners, you've
(37:45):
got the tip of the icebergsticking out, but the iceberg is
actually huge underneath thewater.
Gaby (37:52):
Yeah.
It's much more likely to be likethe more significant piece of
what's going on.
Jenelle (37:57):
Right.
And it's very similar inpsychology to a very Freudian
mindset of sort of what you seeis the, the Id, right?
Sort of like what you presentand then everything else
underneath is sort of the, theego and different aspects of who
you are.
And so the conflict itself is,is such a small portion of
(38:19):
what's actually going on.
Gaby (38:20):
Yeah.
So we're like, what, 16, 17 atthat point?
Jenelle (38:24):
Uh, yeah, I think so.
Gaby (38:25):
And we were a group of maybe 50 kids between the ages
of, you had to be at least 13.
Jenelle (38:30):
I think it was between the ages of 13 and 19 yeah.
Gaby (38:33):
It was just so impactful for how I ran my life.
It like our relationship, myrelationship with my parents,
how I dealt with conflictoutside and at work later on in
life, how I dealt with myfriendships.
We still use it in our marriagelike all the time.
Jenelle (38:52):
We have also used this as a foundation for how we have
built relationships with otherpeople, how we uh, how we lead,
how we have friendships, how we,it has set the foundation for
who we are in a lot of ways.
Gaby (39:08):
Yeah.
Jenelle (39:09):
And we would practice what we were learning, right?
Because we, I mean we weredating while we were going
through all this and we hadconflict and so we had to
practice, and you would have tocall me out on things to where
you're like, remember to listeneven if it hurts.
Gaby (39:25):
Yeah.
You use I statements like you'renot using I statements.
Like, don't tell me you do thiswhen in fact it's what you do.
Jenelle (39:31):
Yeah.
Gaby (39:32):
I'm just hoping that we can continue to use that
foundation to have these reallydifficult conversations because
we're always, I think City atPeace the way that they
structured things.
I would really like to kind ofhave those same types of
conversations on this podcastnow as an adult about, you know,
(39:52):
what identity means, likecreating a communal language,
creating a space that is safe todiscuss these topics that aren't
always easy.
And then also to look atexamples of people who are doing
it really well, who are beinginclusive leaders who are
talking about, um, and doing andactively supporting folks by
(40:13):
leveraging their own influenceand helping other people rise
up.
Initially when I left my job Ithought, okay, I'm going to go
freelance, I'm going to do somefreelance marketing, I'm going
do some freelance consulting,which I am doing.
Um, and I'm, I want to do a lotof a focus on social impact
organizations so that I cancontinue to talk about these
(40:35):
things.
But in reality for me, where Iwant to drive my life is to, to
find a way to talk aboutinclusivity and help other
people build inclusivity intotheir lives, into their
environments and workspaces andorganizations and, and
communities.
Because it means so much to me.
And it's just really fun beingable to like use these tools to
(40:59):
continue to investigate and likebe curious about each other and,
and the world and like also thepeople around us.
Jenelle (41:06):
One of the things that city at peace taught me was how
to be open to other people andnot necessarily vulnerable to
other people.
Um, even though I think thatthat's important, but how to be
open to other people's stories.
And that's a really hard thingto do because as humans, I think
(41:27):
we're in an inherently selfishand think that the world
revolves around us, right?
Like we, it is, I can't readother people's minds, right?
So I have to live in my ownworld, but there's so much going
on outside of our ourselves inour own experience.
And so for me, my hope is tohelp other people just inch
(41:50):
closer to wanting to understandother people.
Learning to take a pause whenyou're looking at a situation
just from your own perspectiveand, and learning to take in and
ask the question of theperspective of those that are
around you.
Yeah.
Gaby (42:08):
That's my hope too.
Thanks for joining us on thisweek's episode about our
community ground rules.
We hope you enjoyed learningabout where they come from and
how we use them in our lives.
We'd love to hear from all ofyou.
Visit our website thewaywelead.com and share a voice memo on
our contact us page.
Give us your feedback.
Let us know what ground rulesyou think we might be missing
(42:29):
while you're on the site.
Subscribe to our newsletter forsome additional behind the
scenes material.
It comes out every other weekalternating with our episodes.
If you want to get Super Meta, Ihear additional behind the
scenes conversations betweenJenelle and me about our fears,
excitements, and backstories asa couple, sign up to become a
monthly patron by clicking ourpatreon button on the top right
(42:49):
of the website.
This episode was produced by me,Gaby Acosta and co-hosted by my
lovely wife Jenelle Acosta.
Our music was written andproduced by the Fabulous Emily
Henry.
Special thanks go out to our 30for 30 accelerators who made
this all possible.
Here's Jenelle singing thisweek's list of seed fund
sponsors.
Jenelle (43:13):
Adrienne and Stephen Inger-Goss, Allen Stairs.
Hi Dad.
Barbara Acosta.
Gaby (43:19):
Hey Mom.
Jenelle (43:22):
Ben Posner, Brigette Fine, Brittany Witcher.
[Dog Barks] Every time.
Gaby (43:27):
I'm Gaby Acosta, and I'll see you next time.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.