People are most effective when they can influence their immediate sphere. This week’s guests, Marie Bigham and Steve Frappier focus on removing barriers in a field they've dedicated their lives to over the last two decades: post-secondary education. In 2016, they were part of a small group that launched ACCEPT (Admissions Community Cultivating Equity & Peace Today), a nonprofit organization that empowers college admissions professionals to center justice, equity, and anti-racism in their work and communities. This episode is chock-full of learnings on the hidden superpower of being multiracial, how to practice cultural humility, and how to build meaningful and active communities who advocate for equity and access.
For more, check out S1E5 episode notes for full speaker bios, episode highlights, links to references, and for a fully accessible interview transcript.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve Frappier (00:00):
We're a group that embraces allyship in
advocacy, but we also want tosay those terms may not be
enough.
Allyship can be passive,allyship could be buying a
button.
Allyship could be holding apremise in your heart but not
acting upon it.
And so there's something whereallyship gets to be a
(00:21):
self-defined and monitored inmany instances.
But what our profession isseeking, are accomplices.
Gaby Acosta (00:32):
Hola, Hola! It's Gaby Acosta.
Jenelle Acosta (00:36):
And me.
Jenelle Acosta.
We're high school sweethearts ona journey to be better allies.
Gaby Acosta (00:42):
You're listening to the way we lead.
We talk about inclusiveleadership, allyship and
advocacy with folks acrossidentities, industries and
experiences.
Jenelle (00:52):
If you're new here, Welcome! You can follow us on
Facebook, Instagram and Twitterusing the handle@thewaywelead.
Gaby Acosta (00:57):
We're glad you're here.
Let's jump in
Jenelle (01:04):
Because we're talking to so many great people from all
across the country.
We have to meet online, whichmeans that sound quality might
not always be perfect.
Marie Bigham (01:12):
My name is Marie Bigham.
I live in New Orleans, Louisianaand I've had the privilege of
living all over the UnitedStates.
Um, my background is I workedfor 20 plus years in college
admissions before startingACCEPT, which is a social
justice group for professionalsin the admissions college
(01:35):
admissions space.
Um, and this for professionalswho seek to center antiracism,
equity, and justice in our workand in our practice.
Steve Frappier (01:43):
And I'm Steve Frappier.
I live in Atlanta, Georgia.
I'm a school counselor there.
Grew up mostly in Montgomery,Alabama in Orlando, Florida.
And I met Marie, uh, 19 yearsago.
Uh, when we worked in the samecollege admissions office at our
Alma mater in St Louis.
Jenelle (02:02):
Can you guys tell us a little bit more about what
ACCEPT is?
What's your mission?
What does, what does yourorganization do?
Marie Bigham (02:09):
Gosh, how do I even begin with, except we
started almost well just alittle bit over three years ago
now.
And the community is based inFacebook in the Facebook group
that I started in the middle ofthe night and feeling despair
about the world after a seriesof shootings in the summer of
2016.
And it was one of those momentswhere I said, you know, so often
(02:33):
when bad things happen in ourworld and in our culture,
there's that group of friendsthat we text with to say, oh my
gosh, this is terrible.
What do I do?
What do I do?
And that energy dissipates.
We get distracted by the nextthing.
And that night I said, well, wecan't do that anymore.
We actually have to dosomething.
People who work in collegeadmissions in whatever role, we
have a special responsibilityfighting for justice.
(02:53):
Because if we, if we reallybelieve that education is the
best path to socioeconomicopportunity and mobility than
those of us who are thegatekeepers, we have more
responsibility in fighting clearthat pathway.
So starting with this group kindof in the middle of the night in
a fit of anger and rage andupset about feeling feudal about
(03:15):
this world, and I saw it wasgoing to be like, you know, 40
or 50 friends in this littlecorner of the Internet.
Um, and it's grown to almost5,400 people now in three years.
And the last three years we'vebeen building community and now
we're in our second phase whereoperationalizing making this,
this is my full time job now andhopefully we will have four of
(03:36):
us on board by next year.
And we're, we're really startingto change the conversation in
college admissions and reallycenter in anti-racism and
injustice as the criticalcomponent of what we do.
Steve Frappier (03:47):
And I didn't know if we've expanded the
acronym but ACCEPT stands foradmissions community cultivating
equity and peace today.
And um, there was just somedeliberation about the T even.
Uh, and there was initial adesire for the t to stand for
together and immediatelyimpatient with that saying, well
(04:10):
together hasn't gotten us veryfar, you know.
And so I wanted to add theurgency to the, the urgency of
today versus together.
And a lot of it is, uh, juststemming from the root of when
we're in an era of thoughts andprayers, but we actually have an
(04:32):
opportunity for action.
That's what we were trying toinstill across our profession.
Just the signal that it's okayto ask for more of us
individually and institutionallyversus just saying, well, that's
just the way things are.
And to be able to bare influenceon that without really even
(04:54):
knowing what we were going toencounter or invite in or butt
our heads against, but knowingthat it was just time to start
doing.
Jenelle (05:06):
I think that that's so interesting to me.
And one of the questions I haveis, so I work for an Ed tech
company.
I work actually in foradmissions through this company.
And when you think about schoolshootings and what sort of was
the catalyst moment for youwatching these shootings happen
and saying that, you know, youwere talking about you are in a
(05:26):
sort of a fit of rage andwanting to start this.
I don't necessarily go to, let's, uh, let's use the admissions
counselor community to reallydrive this conversation.
Why admissions counselors ratherthan say administrators in the
University system.
Marie Bigham (05:40):
Sure.
We'll certainly like this.
You know, this is my community.
The world of college admissionsis my community.
And I started, you know, likeSteve said, we worked together
at our alma matter and I startedin this community in 1997, um,
and just left a month ago.
But it's why this, it's becauseit was our space and I think
(06:00):
something that I've learnedthat's been an incredibly
important lesson over the years.
Is that people are mosteffective when they are
influencing their immediatesphere, am I in the line I
always talk about, but it's sotrue.
I believe in my heart thatgerrymandering is the worst
possible thing for ourdemocracy, but I have no idea
how to fix it.
But more than that, I'm not in aspace that can, so what, what
(06:23):
space do I occupy?
Where do I have the mostinfluence and how do we further
justice and equity in thatspace?
So that's why, to me, admissionsmade the most sense because it's
our community.
Then when you really drill intoit and talk about the ideals
that we discuss in about highereducation, about that pathway,
about admissions, that to me ofall of the spheres of influence
(06:47):
I might be in or where I couldhave a touch admissions makes
the most sense.
It's where we could change theculture quickly.
Steve Frappier (06:57):
And I think to provide insight into the role of
admissions officers and uh, andmany of us, uh, work as school
counselors as well or uh, andthe, and there's some, some
permeability back and forthbetween those work in school
settings and those that may beuniversity administrators that
there's this passing of studentsthrough different milestones.
(07:21):
And for those that are pursuingeducation beyond a high school
realm, there's, um, a certainlevel of resources or lack of
them in whichever high schoolthey go to.
Um, there's, uh, different typesof knowledge that are, um,
present or absent depending on afamily's familiarity with
(07:41):
navigating an American, uh,let's say four year college
process.
And then how, what expectationsdo those students have in it?
Not just being prepared for theacademic work, but entering the,
the social climate of aparticular college.
And is that college prepared totake care of that individual
(08:03):
student or a whole group ofstudents based on their
backgrounds and intersections.
And what we've observed overtime is that admissions can be
great at marketing, can be greator bad at let's say need based
financial aid, but then thecampus climate can be, uh,
completely, uh, negative spacefor students to feel like they
(08:26):
belong and thrive and so onpaper.
And there's this sense of, Oh,you know, getting into the
toughest part and we see timeand again that, uh, perhaps in,
enduring a four year livinglearning community where
students feel that they havetheir authentic selves, um, able
to learn is actually part of thestory.
(08:49):
Why students may not persist.
Um, and then, and then who arethe people within our
profession.
So we, we are active on behalfof all students as they navigate
a complicated process forpostsecondary education.
But those of us that are withinthis profession, many offices
are structured to where theremay be an opportunity for lower
(09:13):
level entry of, for non whitemales to be entering the
university administrativeprocess.
And yet there's this unspokenceiling regarding promotions or
opportunities.
Um, and, and, and that hascertainly, uh, melted away
slightly but, uh, by and large.
(09:36):
Um, our profession is hurtingbecause there are a lot of
talented folks that are not, notreally attended to.
And then they move on to otherthings.
And I think there's the risk ofa lot of talent leaving this
profession simply because thespaces, um, professionally, uh,
are not as inclusive.
Marie Bigham (09:55):
Well, and Steve, Steve and I attended a
conference in January of thisyear and a fact came up that was
not on our minds, certainlythree years ago when we started
ACCEPT, but I think bolsterswhite.
Why admissions?
Um, so we were at a conferenceand we heard Dr Darnell Cole,
who is a professor at USCRossier School of Education.
(10:16):
And, um, he really pushed us asadmissions professionals to
think very intentionally aboutrace and identity formation
through the lens of theadmissions process, how it's
impacted.
But when he shared with us, uh,the important fact that college
campuses are currently the mostpopular place for white
supremacists, and whiteterrorist groups to recruit new
(10:36):
members, he turned to this roomof 200 professionals and said,
you are selecting the people whothey want to recruit.
What is your responsibility inthat?
Wow.
And we didn't know that threeyears ago, but damn.
And if that's not something thatdrives us daily.
Steve Frappier (10:55):
And, uh, and so when we think about school
counseling and collegeadmissions and ACCEPT has become
a space where we can post theanti-defamation league report,
you know, on reported incidentsof campus bias and hate
incidents, you know, and that,and that's just quantity of
reporting.
But we, we certainly see an uptick, um, whether or not we're
(11:18):
in a climate where things arereported more frequently.
Um, but, but that's something tochew on.
That's something, you know, andwe can look at any number of
different types of reports.
It's not, it's not simply, um,it's not enough anymore.
Okay, I'm going to, I'm going tohelp you file the paperwork.
I'm gonna help you search forscholarships.
(11:39):
It's also, let's do a scan on,let's say on the high school
side, this student in front ofme and their family.
What are they valuing?
What are they naming that theyare afraid of or intimidated by
or not and what may be in theirblind spot where it would be
negligent of us as counselors tonot point that out as a
(12:00):
consideration.
Um, but in all of that work,depending on our own personal
identities and intersections,who's taking care of us?
If we are the only one of aparticular background, uh, on a
professional staff like say, orwe feel at a loss of certain
resources or we have to, um,there's just certain things that
(12:21):
are preventing us from bringingour whole selves to our work
environments.
Yet the task is to be whollypresent for the entire range of
students and families that arein front of us.
Um, and so ACCEPT is that welike to think of ourselves as
that charging station where, um,those, um, on any side of the
(12:43):
desk regarding collegeadmissions, counseling, um,
you're able, we're, you're ableto come in and plug in through
information, uh, as well as withpeer support.
Gaby Acosta (12:53):
So when I find incredibly unique about your
group and what I found reallysurprising and exciting about
the work that you're doing andaccept is that you have found a
way, like you said, to createchange at your fingertips.
That's something that we talkabout a lot in our world and
finding ways that are specialand unique to what you feel like
(13:16):
you can impact and then goingfor it.
Um, and so one of the ways thatyou've been able to do that is
by creating this super activeFacebook group.
And I could not believe howactive you were talking about
that Facebook has featured youas one of the most highly
engaged and influentialcommunities in 2017.
(13:39):
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that?
Like what was it thatdistinguished your community and
how have you been able to tapinto that community to drive
action?
Steve Frappier (13:51):
Unbeknownst to us, um, knowing that Facebook
does look at everything, but wedidn't know to what degree, um,
Facebook had reached out andsaid, in looking at the
analytics of who's engaged, um,over 90% of those that are
members of your group, or atleast weekly or active, at least
(14:11):
on a weekly basis, we thought,okay, that's, that's nice.
And they're like, but mostgroups, it's, we consider it, we
consider it engaged at the 30%mark.
Yeah.
It's 30% of numbers are activeon a weekly basis.
That's a pretty active group.
So for it to be at 90% in thescaling up of membership, we
(14:32):
knew that it kind of our, our,our, our professionals were into
this information, we're into,uh, you know, supporting one
another.
We had no idea of the depth anddegree that this was a need, you
know, um, across our, our,across our profession.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
And, and, and one of the first that comes to mind is
that, um, ours was a space wherethere's been a rumbling on.
Why is it that students have topay for their test scores to be
sent to all the colleges thatthey're applying to, which can
amount to$14 for each sitting ofeach ACT.
(15:11):
Um, so if a student has threeACT's to report, it's 42 bucks
per college on top of theapplication fee itself.
And, and in the climate where,you know, the average student
applies to four, but some mayneed to apply to eight to 10 or
12 to try to see financial aid.
It actually becomes, um, uh, acost prohibitive, you know, for
(15:36):
certain families to be able to,um, do something as simple as
pay to send test scores.
And so for colleges to then say,well, we tried you enroll a
diverse class, but they justweren't, they just weren't in
the applicant pool.
We you were trying, uh, as,except to really point out to
them removing a barrier assimple as a student can send you
(15:57):
a screenshot of their scoresthat you can later verify if
they enroll, could actuallybuild that pipeline, uh, versus
doing the normal thing ofsaying, Eh, and we hear this in
interview processes as well,right?
You know, oh, well they justweren't in our applicant pool.
We tried and, and ACCEPT was aspace where we, we were able to,
(16:18):
um, accelerate, um, and amplifysome of those conversations on
cost-prohibitive, uh, testscores sending.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
I love that you took something that you were saying
something as simple as onesingle monetary barrier that
could prevent the entireaudience, which most
institutions often tout theirdiversity numbers, right?
That's something that they wantmore of and want to promote
(16:46):
getting more diverse students intheir campuses.
And so it's almostcounterproductive for them to
have had this policy and you'repointing out for the first time.
We actually think that if youget rid of this small
application fee from the frontend and allow them to confirm
their test scores on the backend, once they're accepted, it
(17:10):
will eliminate the singlebarrier.
I think that's phenomenal.
That's such a simple step totake that you have been able to
see that no one else may be ableto see because you're in it
every single day.
Are there other examples of, ofthat type of action that your
community has been able to take?
Marie Bigham (17:28):
For sure.
I think, I think one of thethings that has given us
opportunity to this is there isthat craving for space, right?
Just to have these conversationsand by building out, ACCEPT that
we've become that space.
But I think back to march forour lives is that only 2018?
When the Parkland shootingsoccurred and the students around
(17:50):
the nation said, we want tomarch, we want to show support,
we want to protest, we want torise up.
And all of these school'ssuperintendents out of nowhere
started to push back on thestudents saying, um, if you do
that, we will suspend you.
If you protest and leave school,we will suspend you.
(18:10):
And if we suspend you, you'regoing to have to take that and
put that on your collegeapplications and colleges, they
don't like that.
So if you, you protest mightkeep you out of college.
And that was one of thosemoments where I'm so grateful
that ACCEPT was around becausethere was a collective space for
the profession.
(18:31):
Your, I'd be like, oh that isnot okay.
You will not speak for us inthis way.
And the members just with acouple of posts saying, what can
we do?
What can we do?
Lead to, you know, high leveldeans of admissions, vice
president of enrollment, postingpublic social media, post
Twitter, insta, Facebook, emailsto their applicants, whatever,
(18:55):
saying we support the protesters.
We support the students who haveto stand for themselves.
Um, we will not hold thisagainst you in the admissions
process.
And these other people don't getto say that for us.
That was a space where it wassomewhat outside of the
Admissions specific realm thatsomeone else was using us in our
(19:19):
process to weaponize againststudents who were doing the
right thing.
And so that was not quite thesame as, hey, we're going to do
it.
We can't remove the fees thatcould keep a student from
applying.
But we were able to say,standing up for yourself is
something we value.
We did get appropriate push back.
Not going to lie.
This is important.
(19:40):
We can appropriate pushback fromblack organizations and black
media.
They were like, that's nice.
Where were you when our kidswalked out for black lives
matter marches?
And my admittedly defensiveposture during reaction at the
time is, oops, we weren't hereand true, but that's not the
right answer.
And our answer instead was,you're right, we need to support
(20:00):
all of our students who arestanding up for themselves and
all the ways they can.
And so we've really, that was agreat learning moment for us,
but it was a great opportunitytoo for like the community in
the profession to stand up forstudents and to say, you don't
get to use us in our process.
And that way, in fact, we'regoing to do hide the opposite.
That that was really proud ofthat kind of activist moment
(20:21):
within our community too.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
Yeah.
That's something that I think alot of people struggle with is
when they're in your instance,when they get feedback from a
community that doesn't feel likeyou were being an ally to them
in the same way that you were toanother[inaudible], you know,
you, you owned that.
And that's something that we'vebeen talking a lot about.
Um, is acknowledging and even ifit hurts and instead of wanting
(20:50):
to react and say, no, what areyou talking about?
I would never, I'm an ally.
I am here to support you too!Acknowledging that and then
saying, you know what, you'reright.
We need to, we need to bebetter.
Steve Frappier (21:05):
If I can speak to that nuance too because the,
and what I've loved so far in,in listening to the, the, the
first podcast that you've putout is exploring this concept of
allyship.
And we're a group that embracesallyship and advocacy, but we're
also ones to say those terms maynot be enough.
(21:27):
Um, allyship can be passive.
Allyship could be buying abutton.
You know, allyship could beholding a premise in your heart,
but not acting upon it.
Uh, and so there's somethingwhere allyship gets to be a
self-defined and monitored, uh,in many instances.
(21:48):
Um, but what our profession isseeking are accomplices, um, and
to really take it to anotherlevel.
An accomplice in this work meanswhether or not I have the
language, whether or not, um,I'm, I am fluent or as
competent.
I see in, I see you, whetherit's a professional, a colleague
(22:11):
or a student and saying, I, I amgoing to act to make this
better.
Not just believe it.
In my heart as an ally or speakabout it as a philosopher
advocate, but really go to thatnext level of doing, um, and
really putting, sticking my neckout and, and willing to perhaps
(22:36):
take a fall, um, by sharing inthe stance and by speaking, um,
uh, on your behalf or alongsideyou.
And, and I think that'ssomething where, um, two people
looking at each other can sayI'm an ally and yet they still
may not be able to get any workdone.
There's something about thehumility required in calling for
(23:02):
accomplices, um, and then, andthen, okay, pause and unpack
that in order for us to reallydo that work, how much more do
we need to get to know about oneanother before we can get into
it.
Marie Bigham (23:17):
I would say the thing that I have personally
taken away from except is a,I've learned how to apologize a
lot better, a lot faster withthat defensiveness and with far
more humility.
Okay.
And that's a tough one as aleader to learn.
(23:38):
It's a tough one.
Who for someone who claims tohave enough wherewithal to be
able to start and lead somethinglike this.
For, for me, my biggest giftfrom this group is learning how
to acknowledge when I step in itbecause I stepped in it just as
much as anyone else.
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Jenelle (24:35):
I think part of the process and becoming an ally is
getting over your ego, right?
And your ego is the one thattells you that I need to defend
myself in this moment because Ineed to sort of preserve myself
and my status rather thanlooking outward and being able
to see it from a differentperspective.
And in, in my own role, I havecertainly stepped in and done
(24:59):
certain things that in hindsightmade a lot of sense why the
communities that I hurt werehurt.
And being able to come back andown up for the fact that I made
a mistake and wondering how wecan grow from that.
I also really love, you know,talking about where you're
wrong.
Um, Steve, I love you talkingabout how some of the idea
(25:20):
around being an ally is knowingthat you're going to make
mistakes but still trying topower through and if you're not
willing to power through, thenwhat change are you going to
make?
So I think, I think that leadsme into, you know, you have done
such a wonderful thing with thiscommunity that you've built and
being able to make realactionable change that the
(25:41):
community has been able to do.
What tips would you recommend toour listeners who want to have a
similar impact in whether it be,you know, similar to what you're
doing in higher education orother organizations and trying
to make them more accessible andinclusive for underrepresented
folks?
Marie Bigham (25:59):
Oh, what a great question.
Yeah.
Gosh.
Steve Frappier (26:03):
I do think one of the important aspects is, is
just getting together andagreeing upon what you're really
trying to get at, even if it'slofty and then determine what
the norms are.
An d a lot of this is perhapssome of the basics in advising
(26:23):
and working with inclusivespaces, but then holding
ourselves accountable as aleadership team to that, you
know, that we should, we shouldalways speak from the, I, you
know, with I statements not, youknow, and to teach others, you
know, the moment you start usingyou, you know, then walls go up.
(26:43):
There also needs to be, um, justa recommendation for articles
that or whatever ongoinglearning can take place.
Enforcing that as an aspect ofyour group.
There's always another, uh, setof stories, another set of, um,
and, and sometimes once we thinkwe've done all the reading,
(27:05):
we've created a space wherehere's an intersection, a set of
intersecting identities that hasnever popped up before.
And it's a beautiful, um, uh,brutiful, we even say, um, set
of narratives and, and a lot ofthat is truly getting to know
(27:25):
one another on an individualbasis as much as possible and
seeking.
Okay.
What brought you here and beingever curious, what brought you
here?
What keeps you here?
For me, I was so I have been sopassionate about the college
process.
Being a first generation collegeattendee.
My mom is a Taiwanese immigrant,u m, and married my dad during
(27:48):
the Vietnam War.
U m, and when he was stationedover in Taiwan and she was, she
was schooled through the sixthgrade and still can't read or
write English, u m, despitebeing in, in American culture
since the mid sixties.
And so, u h, but, but I pass, Ipass as Caucasian.
(28:10):
U m, and in most instances, u m,and, and I'm gay as well, a Gay
Taiwanese American who grew upin the south.
And, and so I have come to termsfor the longest time that I'm
not g onna run into people likeme, u m, from my three primary
identifiers of gender and raceand sexuality, I've met fewer
(28:34):
than 10 people in my life who shared those, that combination.
U m, I'm used to walking into aspace where I'm not g onna run
into folks that have had my, um, my life experiences.
But I'm also able to convertthat into being able to be
curious about others, u h, a nd,and to try to seek understanding
(28:57):
versus feeling competitive orfeeling that I've been deprived
of something.
I could have chosen that.
But I, I've learned that, u m,you're not g onna get very far
by holding onto that.
And so I, I'm trying toencourage others to tap into
that ability to convert whereyou, w here you're constantly
(29:19):
the only one.
But for me, I have the privilegeof passing, u h, a nd, and so
how to then be ever mindful ofthat in, in bringing other
stories forward.
Marie Bigham (29:32):
I think for me it's if someone thinks about and
want to stepped into this spaceand work on equity work and
justice, um, and anti racism,whether on social media, in real
life, how I really want toapproach it regardless of of, of
the space.
I think two things really cometo my mind to make it as, to lay
a foundation for it to be assuccessful ventures.
(29:55):
First is make sure that the teamof voices leading it is diverse
and that especially in racialequity, can't center white
people, um, that, that thereneeds to be people of color, not
just at the table but runningthe table.
And I think Steve and brandy areon fire, one of the three co
(30:16):
leaders.
So I'm seeing Steve, Steven,brandy and I have been, I hope,
extremely intentional aboutlooking around and saying, what
voices aren't here?
But more so than that, whatvoices are silenced because we
feel, because we have to protectsomething.
Right?
And so I think that's the firstthing is making sure that there
(30:37):
is many voices and experiencesaround the table and not
focusing or not centering amajority experience particularly
for doing racial equity work.
And second is a concept that welearned at SMU about a year ago
when um, when we did a programthere and when ACCEPT did a
program working with SMU.
And that's idea of approachingthis work with cultural
(30:59):
humility.
That we all talk about culturalcompetency, cultural competency
training.
And then if you're further downthe line, it's know I have
cultural fluency.
We learned about the concept ofcultural humility and that's
something I've tried very hardto apply in everything I do that
cultural humility flattens thehierarchy does not place the
(31:22):
burden of teaching on themarginalized person doesn't
center the white person as a asthe arbiter of I've hit a check
mark, which is competency orI've learned all there is to
know and I know as much as youwhich is fluency but rather
cultural humility.
Stepping back and saying, let's,I want to hear your story and I
(31:44):
will accept and hear yourcriticism without defensiveness
and my goal is to learn and tobe better every day.
Those two things I think havehelped make us successful in
this work.
Gaby Acosta (31:58):
It's interesting.
Something that just sparkedinside of me from both of you is
from hearing both of you shareyour part of your story is that
I am also mixed.
I'm a mixed Latina, also white.
A white mother and I wasthinking about this really
recently.
I actually think that because ofbeing and embodying
(32:21):
intersectional identities,right, like it mixed race Latina
who is also a LGBTQ communitymember, it has made me from such
a young age have an openmindedness that other folks just
aren't forced to have.
And like you were saying, Steve,I've been able to pass most of
(32:44):
my life.
I as soon as I moved to the U.S.
I remember like practicing myEnglish because I wanted to make
, I would look and open upmagazines and I would practice
to myself and record myself inmy bedroom reading in English
until I could sound like I wasfrom here.
(33:05):
And once I felt like I couldsound like I was, uh, an
American born girl, I, it was somuch easier for me to pass as if
like, no, no, I'm not an otherin any other way.
Right?
Like I could just pretend, whichgives me the privilege of
getting access to the sameopportunities that other people
who are white and nationallyborn in the U.S.
(33:29):
get.
Um, that being said, I think oneof the most interesting things
that I've experienced growing upis that once I got to college,
one of the communities Iactually found was most active
and most vocal in racial justicewas a community that we started
(33:49):
called multiethnic, interracialSmith College(MISC).
That was all about mixed raceidentities coming together to
talk about how power, privilegeand identity play into everyday
life and just thought it wasreally interesting that a lot of
these folks who are forced tothink about it because of their
identity, they, they are theones who are, who can be bridge
(34:11):
builders in many ways becausethey can empathize and feel
their experience from multipleperspectives.
Marie Bigham (34:19):
I'm high fiving you as another mixed race
person.
I am half white, halfVietnamese, like Steve said, has
a privilege of passing.
Although I don't think I do, butI know certainly when I was
younger I would make efforts inthe way that you did with your
accent.
I made efforts in my appearanceand say like distancing myself.
(34:43):
And even to this day, I'm sadthat I don't have a lot of
personal connection to mymother's culture because that
was a specific choice I made asa way to survive.
You know, that proximity tolightness as proximity to
safety, but I think even in amore core away from me, it was
proximity to my father and hisfamily.
But you know, one of thoseicebreakers, what's your super
(35:05):
power?
For like the last five, sixyears I was saying my
superpowers that I'mmultiracial, I can exist in
multiple spaces at once.
Gaby Acosta (35:13):
Yes.
Snaps for that.
I love that.
Marie Bigham (35:16):
And some of the most passionate and effective
organizers and activists I knoware multiracial people.
And I think it's because we havethis intense and never ending
awareness of what it is to haveprivilege and what it is to not.
(35:37):
Hmm.
Steve Frappier (35:38):
And I'll, I'll even go a step further and
saying no.
A willingness to build bridgeseven though either culture may
not even embrace you.
That I, that I can choose orsomeone of a multiracial
background can embrace each sideor multiple sides if there's, um
(36:02):
, uh, a deeper next year, um,and yet may or may not have any
of the component cultureslooking back at them and say, um
, we're counting you as one ofus.
Um, even the willingness to, um,still declare that, um, I have
(36:24):
found to be a source of a sourceof strength, um, uh, personally
and also in, in watching othersnavigate, uh, their, their world
in spaces.
Marie Bigham (36:36):
I think that's so cool.
Your college had that, Smith hadan affinity group for a mix for
multiracial people and it'sreally amazing.
Gaby Acosta (36:44):
Yeah, it was really bad ass and it had been inactive
for a few years.
And then when I was a junior afriend of mine, her name is
Kendra she and I started havingthese conversations, just one on
one and she identified as hapa.
So half.
We were talking a lot aboutthese topics and then we
discovered through the archivesthat it had existed at one
(37:05):
point, and we reactivated thisorganization to be able to
facilitate conversations aroundthis in a more formal capacity.
And it was really probably oneof the safest places where we
could really dig into ouridentity, especially because
both of us, I think connected onthis idea of being the other, no
matter which community we satwith, we always felt like we
(37:28):
didn't belong.
Right?
Like when I'm here, I'm not, I'mnot white enough.
When I'm there, I'm notSalvadoran enough.
Right.
And so always feeling like I'mnot from here, I'm not from
there.
And navigating all thesedifferent spaces, but being able
to be a translator, both ofculture and experience and
language and navigating how wecan empower ourselves to then
(37:52):
lift other people up throughthat ability to see through that
Lens.
Steve Frappier (37:57):
Yeah.
And, and, and hearing that too,that, you know, uh, one of the
powerful things about ACCEPT isthat at almost every conference,
uh, that we have professionallyas counselors and college
admissions professionals, we tryto host what are called meetups.
And then folks that have beenmembers of the groups get to see
(38:18):
each other in person for thefirst time.
You know, folks that you'veadmired.
Um, and, or, or it's also as aplace where folks say, Hey, come
to this meeting and they'venever been a member before.
And they jumped right into it.
And, and that's added anotherdimension that it doesn't have
to be an exclusively onlinespace for reading and
(38:39):
engagement, but to be able toamplify it with the in-person,
the social aspect of it, butalso the challenge.
Now, that I see you in personand, and see the sparks flying
off of you, you know, um, andhow passionate you are about
this.
I'm going to take that with meand try to do better in my
community.
Jenelle (38:59):
So first off, I want to, I'm sitting here as the w
the one person who is white andthere's not share a different
ethnicity or race.
I'm like, I thank you for yourvulnerability and being able to
talk about your perspective.
Um, obviously Gaby and I havebeen together for 13 years, so
I've been able to really hearher challenges of living as, as
(39:20):
a mixed Latina and what that hasmeant for her.
And I've leaned a lot about it,but it's rare for me to hear
people so openly talk abouttheir experience as well.
And I think your vulnerabilityis a lot of what we're really
hoping to get out of thispodcast in the first place.
So it's just first off, thankyou so much.
And I think the, the other sideof this is I'm finding myself in
a vulnerable space as well.
(39:42):
Listening to you sort ofwondering of all of you who
identify as mixed in in one wayor another, how can I be an ally
to you?
Or in general, what doesallyship to you mean?
Marie Bigham (39:56):
That's a great question.
It's a big question.
Steve Frappier (40:00):
There's still adults that asked us.
So I, I, you know, I'm, I'm notgoing to say for you
specifically, but it'sinteresting the number of adults
that will pause and, and hearyou know, something in my voice
or like, you know, how I lookand then they'll just go, what
are you?
You know, and, and, and there'san I and, and we all know where
(40:24):
that comes from.
And that's just the way to getto it.
But it's, it's a, it's a crappyquestion, you know?
It's like that's something youask a dog owner.
Oh, well what is that?
You know, what is it, you know,like, describe, describe your,
your mut's, you know,composition, you know, um, and,
(40:48):
and really just be inquisitive.
you know?
Where'd you grow up, you know,where's your family from?
Um, versus the, what are you asif, as if it can be put into
three or four easy compartments,compartments for the person who
asked the question.
You know, cause there's so manyways that someone, uh, if you're
(41:11):
talking to someone who is intune with their intersections,
well, you know, what do youreally want to hear?
What are you ready for?
You know?
Um, so the, the culturalhumility part, think about how
our language is actually, um,hindering relationships because
we operate in all thesebinaries.
(41:31):
And what are you[inaudible] forme?
Is that it immediately I'mleaning out, but there's a
chance for redemption.
Marie Bigham (41:39):
It's such a great question to some extent,
actually, like literally in thethick of this right now as, um,
I had posted something fairlyvulnerable at, on pantsuit
nation today and I'm gettingsome pushback because I've been
pushing back and what I'm seeingpeople play out there is good
allyship is stepping in.
Or as we say with some snark,come get your people.
(42:03):
Hmm.
Come get your people.
Um, for me that means if I, ifI'm in a space where I, I'm in
the Asian community and peopleare talking about affirmative
action in the negative.
Or any number of things.
Like that's my community.
That's where I'm given privilegein the past, just by my
(42:23):
appearance and my worth.
And in some spaces, even withwhite people, especially like
with my white family.
So I learned how to be a goodally in these conversations.
Like come get your people when,when these conversations are
happening, when someone whofalls into your affinity
community who is going toautomatically give you privilege
(42:44):
and additional space because ofyour identity, um, when they're
doing something, come for them.
Because when we do, as someonenot in that community or as
people of color, the pushback isreally mighty.
But when someone they canidentify, corrects gently or
however it comes, it comes atthat that's received so
(43:07):
differently.
And so I think one of the firststeps in good allyship is to
really like be knowledgeable ofthat and to, and to take that
ownership.
I have to come get my own.
Gaby Acosta (43:21):
I think that's a brilliant place to close.
Um, thank you so much for beinghere.
I want to give you guys one morechance in this last couple of
minutes to talk to us a littlebit about what you guys are up
to right now.
I know you're going through abig life change and taking on a
big initiative.
So tell us more about that.
(43:42):
Tell our listeners what you're,what you're doing and how we can
support you.
Uh, thanks.
So we have a great website.
It's
Marie Bigham (43:50):
kind of starting a new but as a wonderful space for
our information.
For those of you not who, whodon't work in the college
admissions space and thatwebsite is acceptgroup.org.
Um, in the next couple of weekswe're gonna launch a couple of
really big initiatives with theone that we're incredibly
excited about that we hope yourlisteners, um, join us for and
(44:12):
participate in is going to be ayear long project called
"radically re-imaginedadmissions", where along with
the Rise Center from ColoradoState, we're going to have
online conversations in personmeetups, a hackathon and policy
papers where we're going to getthem out hopefully to impact the
(44:34):
election.
But with all of the myriad ofcontroversies going on in
College Admissions, we thoughtthis would be a really good time
for us to step back and say,hey, if we could rebuild this
whole crazy thing and focused onthe values that we, that we
believe are important and whatmight this process look like for
(44:54):
the student, for theinstitution, for any of the
people around the table who helpmake that happen, how might we
find greater equity and justiceif we just strip this whole
thing down and rebuilt it?
So that's something that we wantfolks of, of all spaces to jump
in, um, and to get involvedwith.
And you'll be able to find moreinformation on our website and
(45:16):
mid August about that.
Um,
Gaby Acosta (45:19):
And how can folks who aren't in admissions support
ACCEPT?
Marie Bigham (45:23):
Well, you know, as soon as we finish our 501c3
process, which is really goingto happen any minute now, we can
start to get, if we would loveyour donation, because what has
been kind of a free group thatwe've run online, um, we're not
operationalizing and it's, it'schanging form pretty rapidly.
So we could always use anyfinancial help if folks want to
(45:46):
collaborate from other a socialjustice organizations or or
community organizations.
We're always looking for folkswith whom to collaborate and
just share exciting ideas andinitiatives.
And I think the biggest waysomebody can support except is
to support an antiracistphilosophy and everything they
do.
Gaby Acosta (46:05):
That's phenomenal.
Thank you so much for all ofthis.
I want to give a huge shout outto the except community and for
all the amazing action you'reall taking every day to make
higher education more accessibleto all and we are just truly
inspired by everything thatyou've done.
So thank you for joining us fora short bit of your time today
(46:28):
and really sharing your storywith us.
We really appreciate it.
Marie Bigham (46:32):
Thank you.
Thank you for highlightingleaders of color and exciting
ways of looking at leadership.
I mean all of us need to amplifyeach other, so thank you for
your work.
Jenelle (46:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I have to say, I just put itout there before we officially
end is I think you guys areawesome.
I love just truly what you'redoing.
And the way that you speak aboutit and how much passion comes
from it and it, it really showsthat all of the work that you
have done is really because ofthat passion that comes from it.
(47:02):
The fact that your community isso active really stems from
that.
So that's amazing.
And thank you so much forsharing your time.
It's been really impactful forme listening to you talk about
what you're doing, especially ina space that's similar to what
I'm doing.
So thank you so much.
Marie Bigham (47:16):
Thank you!
Steve Frappier (47:17):
Thank you both.
We're so glad that we found andconnected with you of from a a
fellow ACCEPT member of, as youall were announcing the launch
of this podcast and I'm, I am,uh, I am a happy follower of it
already.
I just wish you all so muchsuccess with it and looking
forward to the stories thatyou're going to accumulate as a,
(47:41):
as we, as we grow together.
Gaby Acosta (47:44):
Yeah, it's an exciting process.
I'm finding all these beautifullittle niches on the Internet
creating change in their own,their own unique ways and it's
going to be a phenomenaljourney.
Getting to learn about all thesedifferent people, people doing
what they are passionate aboutand creating change in their own
ways.
(48:04):
What did you think?
Jenelle (48:06):
so A) I love them as human beings.
Yeah.
They're just wonderful andglowing and Steve talks so
passionately about everythingthat he does and I love, uh, I
love the thoughtfulness of Marieand how much talking about how
much work that she's put in intomaking sure that she is, she is
(48:29):
thoughtful of other communities.
I thought the comment about, youknow, black lives matter, coming
back and saying, where were youwhen we needed you?
And her being able to sit thereand maybe she had an initial
response, but be able to comeback and say, you know what?
You're right.
I'm wrong.
I think that that's so huge andimportant and to be able to do
(48:51):
it in a space that's so visibletoo.
And to be an example of whatthat looks like is so key to
just creating that larger chainreaction of other people being
able to do that too and get overtheir own ego.
Gaby Acosta (49:08):
Yeah.
To me that's a huge inspiration.
And an example of how I want tobe able to navigate that stuff
when inevitably we will becaught at called out for not
doing something in a certain wayand I want to practice taking
that in.
And then like, I think the wordsshe used were so wonderful.
(49:30):
It was learning to apologizewith humility.
Yeah.
That's so great.
Jenelle (49:37):
Um, I want to add into my vocabulary, cultural
humility.
It gives me a word to describewhat I've been trying to explain
for myself for so long is it'snot just understanding and
getting closer to the culturalfluency that she was talking
(49:59):
about.
It's the being able to say,okay, I messed up.
Or okay, I don't know.
Or okay, I'm willing to learnmore, or I know I need to
educate myself.
Right.
It's, it's everything that comeswith being an ally, that it's
not just knowing that it exists,but trying to help be a part of
(50:19):
the, the greater part of this.
And educating yourself andeducating others.
Gaby Acosta (50:24):
Yeah.
They both said something elsethat I was like, oh my God,
that's so beautiful.
It was like when you do thiskind of work, you need to
include team leaders who arealso people of color or
marginalized groups and not onlygive them a seat at the table
but let them run the table.
Yes, and I thought that was sowell said.
(50:47):
And I think this is an exampleof how, um, in general all
leadership, any leader can dothis to empower others who are
learning in any way, shape, orform.
But specifically those who don'ttypically get an even a seat at
the table is to give them achance and a safe space to run
(51:08):
the table.
I think that is so cool.
That idea.
I want to practice that.
I'm not quite sure exactly howyet, but I want to do it.
And it also at the same time, itgave me a feeling.
Jenelle (51:20):
Let's talk about feels.
Gaby Acosta (51:23):
My feeling was when we were thinking about starting
this podcast and also when I wasthinking about shifting my
career into diversity andinclusion, one of my very
initial reactions, tweaks, fearswas that because I can pass as a
multiethnic, multiracial personthat I felt like I didn't have
(51:46):
the right to do this and I, Iliterally checked in with my
people.
Like I checked in with all of mypeer mentors and mentors of
color to ask them specifically,am I crazy for doing this?
Is this a good idea?
Am I the right person to bedoing this?
And I went to several of myfriends, including Cedric, who
(52:09):
really encouraged me to startthis podcast.
He literally looked at me, hewas like, yeah girl, like why
are you waiting for somebodyelse to give you permission?
You have the tools and the rightlens and you're coming at it
from the right perspective,asking questions of other
people, letting them guide you.
So go be our ally.
(52:30):
Like go take, go take this andthe knowledge that you have and
do it.
And I don't think I would havebeen comfortable doing something
like this without thatencouragement from the community
that I want to bring with me andI want to support and, and be an
ally to.
Cause otherwise I felt like Iwas just like being a white
(52:52):
girl, you know, like, likesomebody with privilege coming
in and being like, I'm justgoing to help people who need
it.
And I feel like that's alwaysinherently a huge issues like
that savior martyr complex thata lot of people have.
And I just didn't want to buyinto that.
So I just thought on the piecethat ties us all back in is that
(53:15):
I was really worried that wewere going to start this podcast
as a queer couple and me being amixed Latina who can pass as
white and come at it with a lensthat was inappropriate because
we're not bringing someone torun the table who is more
(53:35):
marginalized than we are.
However, the way that I'mthinking about it right now is
that that's why we have ourguests on, right?
Like the whole point to me is tohave guests on who look and
experience the world differentlythan we do so that they can
share with us their experience.
So if it had just been ustalking about diversity and
(53:57):
inclusion as if like we knew allthe answers, I think that would
have been really problematic.
But because we are bringingpeople in, we are learning in
the process and so it makes mefeel a little bit better that,
you know, I at least that's avulnerability that I just like
suddenly like I felt it.
Jenelle (54:14):
Yeah.
I think, and I mean the otherside of this for me is I am a
white girl.
Like I'm not mixed.
I'm gay, but I'm not mixed.
Right.
And doing this has been, how doI explain this?
So I look at you and I say, youat least have some authority to
talk on this because you areLatina, you are marginalized.
(54:36):
Or at least you know yourcommunity is marginalized.
You at least...You can pass,right?
So that puts you in a verycomplex position within yourself
and internally that you've beenworking through.
But you still are a Latina.
I am not.
And so I have been feeling verysimilar to you that I really
want to make sure that I'm notco-opting this space and that
(54:59):
I'm not speaking out of turn.
But also I think I said itduring the last bit talking
about allyship and that I dofeel vulnerable asking them and
realizing, great, I'm now theone white like white person in
the room with the set of mixedpeople talking about their
(55:21):
experiences that I cannotnecessarily identify with.
I struggle with when do I speakup and when do I sit back and
just listen and make sure thatI'm listening and understanding
and I'm not stepping into muchwith my own, uh, not my own
opinion, but I guess my ownperspective on the situation
(55:43):
because that's not the, that'snot the point.
I want to hear from theirperspective and understand what
we can get out of that and takeand move forward with us.
And so I absolutely can relateto this feeling that you're
having, at least from myperspective of I am the white
girl in the room and how do Imake sure that I am showing that
I'm not an expert and I want tobe the one learning and that I'm
(56:05):
not overtaking the conversation?
Gaby Acosta (56:08):
Yeah.
Well the very fact to me thatyou're even thinking about these
things, that means that you'rebeing thoughtful in your
responses and in your actions.
So I just, I really appreciatethat about you in general in our
lives and in our relationshipand our friendships.
So, you know, I, I'm biased inthis situation, obviously being
(56:29):
your wife, but I just think thatthat's really unique and special
about you, that you're veryintrospective in every
conversation that you have andevery action that you take
almost to a fault.
However, like it leads to a lotof anxiety and like frustration.
However, I think like if wecould find a middle ground and
everyone could do that more andbe more thoughtful and
(56:52):
intentional in the way thatthey're addressing
conversations.
Asking better questions likeSteve Sad, right?
Like, instead of asking what areyou, you know, like if we could
just be more intentional aboutsaying like, oh, that makes you
feel like an object again, thatmakes you feel like something
not human.
So let me ask better questionsand say, hey, tell me more about
(57:15):
your background.
Like what, where are, where'syour family from?
How do you identify, you know,the, that kind of thing.
Um, instead of saying like,what, what are you, you like
weird creature that looksambiguous.
This is a cool conversation.
Jenelle (57:31):
Yeah, I like it.
They want to figure out how wecan support them more because
they are, they're really cool.
I love the fact that they saidthey wanted to start in their
own community.
That and the, the, the idea thatit's, I don't have to go out and
create a brand new community totry to make change.
(57:52):
I can start in the communitythat I already exist and just
start these conversations in thefirst place.
So in their world, that's how wecan impact making the admissions
process more inclusive.
The GRE is a barrier.
So how, how can we work aroundthis as a barrier for people who
might be marginalized in asocioeconomic status that can't
afford it?
(58:13):
It's just looking at where am Itoday and what can I do better
in the community that I'm intoday.
I love them.
I love them so much.
Gaby Acosta (58:20):
While you're leaving those voice memos on our
website the way we lead.com,please make sure to subscribe to
our newsletter for someadditional behind the scenes
materials.
We love our subscribers!
Jenelle (58:33):
You're the best!
Gaby Acosta (58:33):
Get some additional pictures and information and
stories, background informationabout how we got to certain
stories.
It's going to be fun.
This episode was produced by me,Gaby Acosta
Jenelle (58:45):
And cohosted by me, Jenelle Acosta.
Gaby Acosta (58:48):
Our music was written and produced by the
talented Emily Henry.
Here's Jenelle, singing us outwith this week's seed fund
sponsors.
Jenelle Acosta (59:03):
Emily Lynch, Emily Newhook, Erica Moss,
Gabriela Farias, Grace AndersonIsaac Dole(Hey cuz!)
Mellie (dog) (59:18):
[ Mellie Barks].
Jenelle Acosta (59:19):
Every time.
We're a group that embraces allyship in
advocacy, but we also want tosay those terms may not be
enough.
Allyship can be passive,allyship could be buying a
button.
Allyship could be holding apremise in your heart but not
acting upon it.
And so there's something whereallyship gets to be a
(00:21):
self-defined and monitored inmany instances.
But what our profession isseeking, are accomplices.
Gaby Acosta (00:32):
Hola, Hola! It's Gaby Acosta.
Jenelle Acosta (00:36):
And me.
Jenelle Acosta.
We're high school sweethearts ona journey to be better allies.
Gaby Acosta (00:42):
You're listening to the way we lead.
We talk about inclusiveleadership, allyship and
advocacy with folks acrossidentities, industries and
experiences.
Jenelle (00:52):
If you're new here, Welcome! You can follow us on
Facebook, Instagram and Twitterusing the handle@thewaywelead.
Gaby Acosta (00:57):
We're glad you're here.
Let's jump in
Jenelle (01:04):
Because we're talking to so many great people from all
across the country.
We have to meet online, whichmeans that sound quality might
not always be perfect.
Marie Bigham (01:12):
My name is Marie Bigham.
I live in New Orleans, Louisianaand I've had the privilege of
living all over the UnitedStates.
Um, my background is I workedfor 20 plus years in college
admissions before startingACCEPT, which is a social
justice group for professionalsin the admissions college
(01:35):
admissions space.
Um, and this for professionalswho seek to center antiracism,
equity, and justice in our workand in our practice.
Steve Frappier (01:43):
And I'm Steve Frappier.
I live in Atlanta, Georgia.
I'm a school counselor there.
Grew up mostly in Montgomery,Alabama in Orlando, Florida.
And I met Marie, uh, 19 yearsago.
Uh, when we worked in the samecollege admissions office at our
Alma mater in St Louis.
Jenelle (02:02):
Can you guys tell us a little bit more about what
ACCEPT is?
What's your mission?
What does, what does yourorganization do?
Marie Bigham (02:09):
Gosh, how do I even begin with, except we
started almost well just alittle bit over three years ago
now.
And the community is based inFacebook in the Facebook group
that I started in the middle ofthe night and feeling despair
about the world after a seriesof shootings in the summer of
2016.
And it was one of those momentswhere I said, you know, so often
(02:33):
when bad things happen in ourworld and in our culture,
there's that group of friendsthat we text with to say, oh my
gosh, this is terrible.
What do I do?
What do I do?
And that energy dissipates.
We get distracted by the nextthing.
And that night I said, well, wecan't do that anymore.
We actually have to dosomething.
People who work in collegeadmissions in whatever role, we
have a special responsibilityfighting for justice.
(02:53):
Because if we, if we reallybelieve that education is the
best path to socioeconomicopportunity and mobility than
those of us who are thegatekeepers, we have more
responsibility in fighting clearthat pathway.
So starting with this group kindof in the middle of the night in
a fit of anger and rage andupset about feeling feudal about
(03:15):
this world, and I saw it wasgoing to be like, you know, 40
or 50 friends in this littlecorner of the Internet.
Um, and it's grown to almost5,400 people now in three years.
And the last three years we'vebeen building community and now
we're in our second phase whereoperationalizing making this,
this is my full time job now andhopefully we will have four of
(03:36):
us on board by next year.
And we're, we're really startingto change the conversation in
college admissions and reallycenter in anti-racism and
injustice as the criticalcomponent of what we do.
Steve Frappier (03:47):
And I didn't know if we've expanded the
acronym but ACCEPT stands foradmissions community cultivating
equity and peace today.
And um, there was just somedeliberation about the T even.
Uh, and there was initial adesire for the t to stand for
together and immediatelyimpatient with that saying, well
(04:10):
together hasn't gotten us veryfar, you know.
And so I wanted to add theurgency to the, the urgency of
today versus together.
And a lot of it is, uh, juststemming from the root of when
we're in an era of thoughts andprayers, but we actually have an
(04:32):
opportunity for action.
That's what we were trying toinstill across our profession.
Just the signal that it's okayto ask for more of us
individually and institutionallyversus just saying, well, that's
just the way things are.
And to be able to bare influenceon that without really even
(04:54):
knowing what we were going toencounter or invite in or butt
our heads against, but knowingthat it was just time to start
doing.
Jenelle (05:06):
I think that that's so interesting to me.
And one of the questions I haveis, so I work for an Ed tech
company.
I work actually in foradmissions through this company.
And when you think about schoolshootings and what sort of was
the catalyst moment for youwatching these shootings happen
and saying that, you know, youwere talking about you are in a
(05:26):
sort of a fit of rage andwanting to start this.
I don't necessarily go to, let's, uh, let's use the admissions
counselor community to reallydrive this conversation.
Why admissions counselors ratherthan say administrators in the
University system.
Marie Bigham (05:40):
Sure.
We'll certainly like this.
You know, this is my community.
The world of college admissionsis my community.
And I started, you know, likeSteve said, we worked together
at our alma matter and I startedin this community in 1997, um,
and just left a month ago.
But it's why this, it's becauseit was our space and I think
(06:00):
something that I've learnedthat's been an incredibly
important lesson over the years.
Is that people are mosteffective when they are
influencing their immediatesphere, am I in the line I
always talk about, but it's sotrue.
I believe in my heart thatgerrymandering is the worst
possible thing for ourdemocracy, but I have no idea
how to fix it.
But more than that, I'm not in aspace that can, so what, what
(06:23):
space do I occupy?
Where do I have the mostinfluence and how do we further
justice and equity in thatspace?
So that's why, to me, admissionsmade the most sense because it's
our community.
Then when you really drill intoit and talk about the ideals
that we discuss in about highereducation, about that pathway,
about admissions, that to me ofall of the spheres of influence
(06:47):
I might be in or where I couldhave a touch admissions makes
the most sense.
It's where we could change theculture quickly.
Steve Frappier (06:57):
And I think to provide insight into the role of
admissions officers and uh, andmany of us, uh, work as school
counselors as well or uh, andthe, and there's some, some
permeability back and forthbetween those work in school
settings and those that may beuniversity administrators that
there's this passing of studentsthrough different milestones.
(07:21):
And for those that are pursuingeducation beyond a high school
realm, there's, um, a certainlevel of resources or lack of
them in whichever high schoolthey go to.
Um, there's, uh, different typesof knowledge that are, um,
present or absent depending on afamily's familiarity with
(07:41):
navigating an American, uh,let's say four year college
process.
And then how, what expectationsdo those students have in it?
Not just being prepared for theacademic work, but entering the,
the social climate of aparticular college.
And is that college prepared totake care of that individual
(08:03):
student or a whole group ofstudents based on their
backgrounds and intersections.
And what we've observed overtime is that admissions can be
great at marketing, can be greator bad at let's say need based
financial aid, but then thecampus climate can be, uh,
completely, uh, negative spacefor students to feel like they
(08:26):
belong and thrive and so onpaper.
And there's this sense of, Oh,you know, getting into the
toughest part and we see timeand again that, uh, perhaps in,
enduring a four year livinglearning community where
students feel that they havetheir authentic selves, um, able
to learn is actually part of thestory.
(08:49):
Why students may not persist.
Um, and then, and then who arethe people within our
profession.
So we, we are active on behalfof all students as they navigate
a complicated process forpostsecondary education.
But those of us that are withinthis profession, many offices
are structured to where theremay be an opportunity for lower
(09:13):
level entry of, for non whitemales to be entering the
university administrativeprocess.
And yet there's this unspokenceiling regarding promotions or
opportunities.
Um, and, and, and that hascertainly, uh, melted away
slightly but, uh, by and large.
(09:36):
Um, our profession is hurtingbecause there are a lot of
talented folks that are not, notreally attended to.
And then they move on to otherthings.
And I think there's the risk ofa lot of talent leaving this
profession simply because thespaces, um, professionally, uh,
are not as inclusive.
Marie Bigham (09:55):
Well, and Steve, Steve and I attended a
conference in January of thisyear and a fact came up that was
not on our minds, certainlythree years ago when we started
ACCEPT, but I think bolsterswhite.
Why admissions?
Um, so we were at a conferenceand we heard Dr Darnell Cole,
who is a professor at USCRossier School of Education.
(10:16):
And, um, he really pushed us asadmissions professionals to
think very intentionally aboutrace and identity formation
through the lens of theadmissions process, how it's
impacted.
But when he shared with us, uh,the important fact that college
campuses are currently the mostpopular place for white
supremacists, and whiteterrorist groups to recruit new
(10:36):
members, he turned to this roomof 200 professionals and said,
you are selecting the people whothey want to recruit.
What is your responsibility inthat?
Wow.
And we didn't know that threeyears ago, but damn.
And if that's not something thatdrives us daily.
Steve Frappier (10:55):
And, uh, and so when we think about school
counseling and collegeadmissions and ACCEPT has become
a space where we can post theanti-defamation league report,
you know, on reported incidentsof campus bias and hate
incidents, you know, and that,and that's just quantity of
reporting.
But we, we certainly see an uptick, um, whether or not we're
(11:18):
in a climate where things arereported more frequently.
Um, but, but that's something tochew on.
That's something, you know, andwe can look at any number of
different types of reports.
It's not, it's not simply, um,it's not enough anymore.
Okay, I'm going to, I'm going tohelp you file the paperwork.
I'm gonna help you search forscholarships.
(11:39):
It's also, let's do a scan on,let's say on the high school
side, this student in front ofme and their family.
What are they valuing?
What are they naming that theyare afraid of or intimidated by
or not and what may be in theirblind spot where it would be
negligent of us as counselors tonot point that out as a
(12:00):
consideration.
Um, but in all of that work,depending on our own personal
identities and intersections,who's taking care of us?
If we are the only one of aparticular background, uh, on a
professional staff like say, orwe feel at a loss of certain
resources or we have to, um,there's just certain things that
(12:21):
are preventing us from bringingour whole selves to our work
environments.
Yet the task is to be whollypresent for the entire range of
students and families that arein front of us.
Um, and so ACCEPT is that welike to think of ourselves as
that charging station where, um,those, um, on any side of the
(12:43):
desk regarding collegeadmissions, counseling, um,
you're able, we're, you're ableto come in and plug in through
information, uh, as well as withpeer support.
Gaby Acosta (12:53):
So when I find incredibly unique about your
group and what I found reallysurprising and exciting about
the work that you're doing andaccept is that you have found a
way, like you said, to createchange at your fingertips.
That's something that we talkabout a lot in our world and
finding ways that are specialand unique to what you feel like
(13:16):
you can impact and then goingfor it.
Um, and so one of the ways thatyou've been able to do that is
by creating this super activeFacebook group.
And I could not believe howactive you were talking about
that Facebook has featured youas one of the most highly
engaged and influentialcommunities in 2017.
(13:39):
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that?
Like what was it thatdistinguished your community and
how have you been able to tapinto that community to drive
action?
Steve Frappier (13:51):
Unbeknownst to us, um, knowing that Facebook
does look at everything, but wedidn't know to what degree, um,
Facebook had reached out andsaid, in looking at the
analytics of who's engaged, um,over 90% of those that are
members of your group, or atleast weekly or active, at least
(14:11):
on a weekly basis, we thought,okay, that's, that's nice.
And they're like, but mostgroups, it's, we consider it, we
consider it engaged at the 30%mark.
Yeah.
It's 30% of numbers are activeon a weekly basis.
That's a pretty active group.
So for it to be at 90% in thescaling up of membership, we
(14:32):
knew that it kind of our, our,our, our professionals were into
this information, we're into,uh, you know, supporting one
another.
We had no idea of the depth anddegree that this was a need, you
know, um, across our, our,across our profession.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
And, and, and one of the first that comes to mind is
that, um, ours was a space wherethere's been a rumbling on.
Why is it that students have topay for their test scores to be
sent to all the colleges thatthey're applying to, which can
amount to$14 for each sitting ofeach ACT.
(15:11):
Um, so if a student has threeACT's to report, it's 42 bucks
per college on top of theapplication fee itself.
And, and in the climate where,you know, the average student
applies to four, but some mayneed to apply to eight to 10 or
12 to try to see financial aid.
It actually becomes, um, uh, acost prohibitive, you know, for
(15:36):
certain families to be able to,um, do something as simple as
pay to send test scores.
And so for colleges to then say,well, we tried you enroll a
diverse class, but they justweren't, they just weren't in
the applicant pool.
We you were trying, uh, as,except to really point out to
them removing a barrier assimple as a student can send you
(15:57):
a screenshot of their scoresthat you can later verify if
they enroll, could actuallybuild that pipeline, uh, versus
doing the normal thing ofsaying, Eh, and we hear this in
interview processes as well,right?
You know, oh, well they justweren't in our applicant pool.
We tried and, and ACCEPT was aspace where we, we were able to,
(16:18):
um, accelerate, um, and amplifysome of those conversations on
cost-prohibitive, uh, testscores sending.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
I love that you took something that you were saying
something as simple as onesingle monetary barrier that
could prevent the entireaudience, which most
institutions often tout theirdiversity numbers, right?
That's something that they wantmore of and want to promote
(16:46):
getting more diverse students intheir campuses.
And so it's almostcounterproductive for them to
have had this policy and you'repointing out for the first time.
We actually think that if youget rid of this small
application fee from the frontend and allow them to confirm
their test scores on the backend, once they're accepted, it
(17:10):
will eliminate the singlebarrier.
I think that's phenomenal.
That's such a simple step totake that you have been able to
see that no one else may be ableto see because you're in it
every single day.
Are there other examples of, ofthat type of action that your
community has been able to take?
Marie Bigham (17:28):
For sure.
I think, I think one of thethings that has given us
opportunity to this is there isthat craving for space, right?
Just to have these conversationsand by building out, ACCEPT that
we've become that space.
But I think back to march forour lives is that only 2018?
When the Parkland shootingsoccurred and the students around
(17:50):
the nation said, we want tomarch, we want to show support,
we want to protest, we want torise up.
And all of these school'ssuperintendents out of nowhere
started to push back on thestudents saying, um, if you do
that, we will suspend you.
If you protest and leave school,we will suspend you.
(18:10):
And if we suspend you, you'regoing to have to take that and
put that on your collegeapplications and colleges, they
don't like that.
So if you, you protest mightkeep you out of college.
And that was one of thosemoments where I'm so grateful
that ACCEPT was around becausethere was a collective space for
the profession.
(18:31):
Your, I'd be like, oh that isnot okay.
You will not speak for us inthis way.
And the members just with acouple of posts saying, what can
we do?
What can we do?
Lead to, you know, high leveldeans of admissions, vice
president of enrollment, postingpublic social media, post
Twitter, insta, Facebook, emailsto their applicants, whatever,
(18:55):
saying we support the protesters.
We support the students who haveto stand for themselves.
Um, we will not hold thisagainst you in the admissions
process.
And these other people don't getto say that for us.
That was a space where it wassomewhat outside of the
Admissions specific realm thatsomeone else was using us in our
(19:19):
process to weaponize againststudents who were doing the
right thing.
And so that was not quite thesame as, hey, we're going to do
it.
We can't remove the fees thatcould keep a student from
applying.
But we were able to say,standing up for yourself is
something we value.
We did get appropriate push back.
Not going to lie.
This is important.
(19:40):
We can appropriate pushback fromblack organizations and black
media.
They were like, that's nice.
Where were you when our kidswalked out for black lives
matter marches?
And my admittedly defensiveposture during reaction at the
time is, oops, we weren't hereand true, but that's not the
right answer.
And our answer instead was,you're right, we need to support
(20:00):
all of our students who arestanding up for themselves and
all the ways they can.
And so we've really, that was agreat learning moment for us,
but it was a great opportunitytoo for like the community in
the profession to stand up forstudents and to say, you don't
get to use us in our process.
And that way, in fact, we'regoing to do hide the opposite.
That that was really proud ofthat kind of activist moment
(20:21):
within our community too.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
Yeah.
That's something that I think alot of people struggle with is
when they're in your instance,when they get feedback from a
community that doesn't feel likeyou were being an ally to them
in the same way that you were toanother[inaudible], you know,
you, you owned that.
And that's something that we'vebeen talking a lot about.
Um, is acknowledging and even ifit hurts and instead of wanting
(20:50):
to react and say, no, what areyou talking about?
I would never, I'm an ally.
I am here to support you too!Acknowledging that and then
saying, you know what, you'reright.
We need to, we need to bebetter.
Steve Frappier (21:05):
If I can speak to that nuance too because the,
and what I've loved so far in,in listening to the, the, the
first podcast that you've putout is exploring this concept of
allyship.
And we're a group that embracesallyship and advocacy, but we're
also ones to say those terms maynot be enough.
(21:27):
Um, allyship can be passive.
Allyship could be buying abutton.
You know, allyship could beholding a premise in your heart,
but not acting upon it.
Uh, and so there's somethingwhere allyship gets to be a
self-defined and monitored, uh,in many instances.
(21:48):
Um, but what our profession isseeking are accomplices, um, and
to really take it to anotherlevel.
An accomplice in this work meanswhether or not I have the
language, whether or not, um,I'm, I am fluent or as
competent.
I see in, I see you, whetherit's a professional, a colleague
(22:11):
or a student and saying, I, I amgoing to act to make this
better.
Not just believe it.
In my heart as an ally or speakabout it as a philosopher
advocate, but really go to thatnext level of doing, um, and
really putting, sticking my neckout and, and willing to perhaps
(22:36):
take a fall, um, by sharing inthe stance and by speaking, um,
uh, on your behalf or alongsideyou.
And, and I think that'ssomething where, um, two people
looking at each other can sayI'm an ally and yet they still
may not be able to get any workdone.
There's something about thehumility required in calling for
(23:02):
accomplices, um, and then, andthen, okay, pause and unpack
that in order for us to reallydo that work, how much more do
we need to get to know about oneanother before we can get into
it.
Marie Bigham (23:17):
I would say the thing that I have personally
taken away from except is a,I've learned how to apologize a
lot better, a lot faster withthat defensiveness and with far
more humility.
Okay.
And that's a tough one as aleader to learn.
(23:38):
It's a tough one.
Who for someone who claims tohave enough wherewithal to be
able to start and lead somethinglike this.
For, for me, my biggest giftfrom this group is learning how
to acknowledge when I step in itbecause I stepped in it just as
much as anyone else.
Gaby Acosta (23:58):
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(24:18):
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Jenelle (24:35):
I think part of the process and becoming an ally is
getting over your ego, right?
And your ego is the one thattells you that I need to defend
myself in this moment because Ineed to sort of preserve myself
and my status rather thanlooking outward and being able
to see it from a differentperspective.
And in, in my own role, I havecertainly stepped in and done
(24:59):
certain things that in hindsightmade a lot of sense why the
communities that I hurt werehurt.
And being able to come back andown up for the fact that I made
a mistake and wondering how wecan grow from that.
I also really love, you know,talking about where you're
wrong.
Um, Steve, I love you talkingabout how some of the idea
(25:20):
around being an ally is knowingthat you're going to make
mistakes but still trying topower through and if you're not
willing to power through, thenwhat change are you going to
make?
So I think, I think that leadsme into, you know, you have done
such a wonderful thing with thiscommunity that you've built and
being able to make realactionable change that the
(25:41):
community has been able to do.
What tips would you recommend toour listeners who want to have a
similar impact in whether it be,you know, similar to what you're
doing in higher education orother organizations and trying
to make them more accessible andinclusive for underrepresented
folks?
Marie Bigham (25:59):
Oh, what a great question.
Yeah.
Gosh.
Steve Frappier (26:03):
I do think one of the important aspects is, is
just getting together andagreeing upon what you're really
trying to get at, even if it'slofty and then determine what
the norms are.
An d a lot of this is perhapssome of the basics in advising
(26:23):
and working with inclusivespaces, but then holding
ourselves accountable as aleadership team to that, you
know, that we should, we shouldalways speak from the, I, you
know, with I statements not, youknow, and to teach others, you
know, the moment you start usingyou, you know, then walls go up.
(26:43):
There also needs to be, um, justa recommendation for articles
that or whatever ongoinglearning can take place.
Enforcing that as an aspect ofyour group.
There's always another, uh, setof stories, another set of, um,
and, and sometimes once we thinkwe've done all the reading,
(27:05):
we've created a space wherehere's an intersection, a set of
intersecting identities that hasnever popped up before.
And it's a beautiful, um, uh,brutiful, we even say, um, set
of narratives and, and a lot ofthat is truly getting to know
(27:25):
one another on an individualbasis as much as possible and
seeking.
Okay.
What brought you here and beingever curious, what brought you
here?
What keeps you here?
For me, I was so I have been sopassionate about the college
process.
Being a first generation collegeattendee.
My mom is a Taiwanese immigrant,u m, and married my dad during
(27:48):
the Vietnam War.
U m, and when he was stationedover in Taiwan and she was, she
was schooled through the sixthgrade and still can't read or
write English, u m, despitebeing in, in American culture
since the mid sixties.
And so, u h, but, but I pass, Ipass as Caucasian.
(28:10):
U m, and in most instances, u m,and, and I'm gay as well, a Gay
Taiwanese American who grew upin the south.
And, and so I have come to termsfor the longest time that I'm
not g onna run into people likeme, u m, from my three primary
identifiers of gender and raceand sexuality, I've met fewer
(28:34):
than 10 people in my life who shared those, that combination.
U m, I'm used to walking into aspace where I'm not g onna run
into folks that have had my, um, my life experiences.
But I'm also able to convertthat into being able to be
curious about others, u h, a nd,and to try to seek understanding
(28:57):
versus feeling competitive orfeeling that I've been deprived
of something.
I could have chosen that.
But I, I've learned that, u m,you're not g onna get very far
by holding onto that.
And so I, I'm trying toencourage others to tap into
that ability to convert whereyou, w here you're constantly
(29:19):
the only one.
But for me, I have the privilegeof passing, u h, a nd, and so
how to then be ever mindful ofthat in, in bringing other
stories forward.
Marie Bigham (29:32):
I think for me it's if someone thinks about and
want to stepped into this spaceand work on equity work and
justice, um, and anti racism,whether on social media, in real
life, how I really want toapproach it regardless of of, of
the space.
I think two things really cometo my mind to make it as, to lay
a foundation for it to be assuccessful ventures.
(29:55):
First is make sure that the teamof voices leading it is diverse
and that especially in racialequity, can't center white
people, um, that, that thereneeds to be people of color, not
just at the table but runningthe table.
And I think Steve and brandy areon fire, one of the three co
(30:16):
leaders.
So I'm seeing Steve, Steven,brandy and I have been, I hope,
extremely intentional aboutlooking around and saying, what
voices aren't here?
But more so than that, whatvoices are silenced because we
feel, because we have to protectsomething.
Right?
And so I think that's the firstthing is making sure that there
(30:37):
is many voices and experiencesaround the table and not
focusing or not centering amajority experience particularly
for doing racial equity work.
And second is a concept that welearned at SMU about a year ago
when um, when we did a programthere and when ACCEPT did a
program working with SMU.
And that's idea of approachingthis work with cultural
(30:59):
humility.
That we all talk about culturalcompetency, cultural competency
training.
And then if you're further downthe line, it's know I have
cultural fluency.
We learned about the concept ofcultural humility and that's
something I've tried very hardto apply in everything I do that
cultural humility flattens thehierarchy does not place the
(31:22):
burden of teaching on themarginalized person doesn't
center the white person as a asthe arbiter of I've hit a check
mark, which is competency orI've learned all there is to
know and I know as much as youwhich is fluency but rather
cultural humility.
Stepping back and saying, let's,I want to hear your story and I
(31:44):
will accept and hear yourcriticism without defensiveness
and my goal is to learn and tobe better every day.
Those two things I think havehelped make us successful in
this work.
Gaby Acosta (31:58):
It's interesting.
Something that just sparkedinside of me from both of you is
from hearing both of you shareyour part of your story is that
I am also mixed.
I'm a mixed Latina, also white.
A white mother and I wasthinking about this really
recently.
I actually think that because ofbeing and embodying
(32:21):
intersectional identities,right, like it mixed race Latina
who is also a LGBTQ communitymember, it has made me from such
a young age have an openmindedness that other folks just
aren't forced to have.
And like you were saying, Steve,I've been able to pass most of
(32:44):
my life.
I as soon as I moved to the U.S.
I remember like practicing myEnglish because I wanted to make
, I would look and open upmagazines and I would practice
to myself and record myself inmy bedroom reading in English
until I could sound like I wasfrom here.
(33:05):
And once I felt like I couldsound like I was, uh, an
American born girl, I, it was somuch easier for me to pass as if
like, no, no, I'm not an otherin any other way.
Right?
Like I could just pretend, whichgives me the privilege of
getting access to the sameopportunities that other people
who are white and nationallyborn in the U.S.
(33:29):
get.
Um, that being said, I think oneof the most interesting things
that I've experienced growing upis that once I got to college,
one of the communities Iactually found was most active
and most vocal in racial justicewas a community that we started
(33:49):
called multiethnic, interracialSmith College(MISC).
That was all about mixed raceidentities coming together to
talk about how power, privilegeand identity play into everyday
life and just thought it wasreally interesting that a lot of
these folks who are forced tothink about it because of their
identity, they, they are theones who are, who can be bridge
(34:11):
builders in many ways becausethey can empathize and feel
their experience from multipleperspectives.
Marie Bigham (34:19):
I'm high fiving you as another mixed race
person.
I am half white, halfVietnamese, like Steve said, has
a privilege of passing.
Although I don't think I do, butI know certainly when I was
younger I would make efforts inthe way that you did with your
accent.
I made efforts in my appearanceand say like distancing myself.
(34:43):
And even to this day, I'm sadthat I don't have a lot of
personal connection to mymother's culture because that
was a specific choice I made asa way to survive.
You know, that proximity tolightness as proximity to
safety, but I think even in amore core away from me, it was
proximity to my father and hisfamily.
But you know, one of thoseicebreakers, what's your super
(35:05):
power?
For like the last five, sixyears I was saying my
superpowers that I'mmultiracial, I can exist in
multiple spaces at once.
Gaby Acosta (35:13):
Yes.
Snaps for that.
I love that.
Marie Bigham (35:16):
And some of the most passionate and effective
organizers and activists I knoware multiracial people.
And I think it's because we havethis intense and never ending
awareness of what it is to haveprivilege and what it is to not.
(35:37):
Hmm.
Steve Frappier (35:38):
And I'll, I'll even go a step further and
saying no.
A willingness to build bridgeseven though either culture may
not even embrace you.
That I, that I can choose orsomeone of a multiracial
background can embrace each sideor multiple sides if there's, um
(36:02):
, uh, a deeper next year, um,and yet may or may not have any
of the component cultureslooking back at them and say, um
, we're counting you as one ofus.
Um, even the willingness to, um,still declare that, um, I have
(36:24):
found to be a source of a sourceof strength, um, uh, personally
and also in, in watching othersnavigate, uh, their, their world
in spaces.
Marie Bigham (36:36):
I think that's so cool.
Your college had that, Smith hadan affinity group for a mix for
multiracial people and it'sreally amazing.
Gaby Acosta (36:44):
Yeah, it was really bad ass and it had been inactive
for a few years.
And then when I was a junior afriend of mine, her name is
Kendra she and I started havingthese conversations, just one on
one and she identified as hapa.
So half.
We were talking a lot aboutthese topics and then we
discovered through the archivesthat it had existed at one
(37:05):
point, and we reactivated thisorganization to be able to
facilitate conversations aroundthis in a more formal capacity.
And it was really probably oneof the safest places where we
could really dig into ouridentity, especially because
both of us, I think connected onthis idea of being the other, no
matter which community we satwith, we always felt like we
(37:28):
didn't belong.
Right?
Like when I'm here, I'm not, I'mnot white enough.
When I'm there, I'm notSalvadoran enough.
Right.
And so always feeling like I'mnot from here, I'm not from
there.
And navigating all thesedifferent spaces, but being able
to be a translator, both ofculture and experience and
language and navigating how wecan empower ourselves to then
(37:52):
lift other people up throughthat ability to see through that
Lens.
Steve Frappier (37:57):
Yeah.
And, and, and hearing that too,that, you know, uh, one of the
powerful things about ACCEPT isthat at almost every conference,
uh, that we have professionallyas counselors and college
admissions professionals, we tryto host what are called meetups.
And then folks that have beenmembers of the groups get to see
(38:18):
each other in person for thefirst time.
You know, folks that you'veadmired.
Um, and, or, or it's also as aplace where folks say, Hey, come
to this meeting and they'venever been a member before.
And they jumped right into it.
And, and that's added anotherdimension that it doesn't have
to be an exclusively onlinespace for reading and
(38:39):
engagement, but to be able toamplify it with the in-person,
the social aspect of it, butalso the challenge.
Now, that I see you in personand, and see the sparks flying
off of you, you know, um, andhow passionate you are about
this.
I'm going to take that with meand try to do better in my
community.
Jenelle (38:59):
So first off, I want to, I'm sitting here as the w
the one person who is white andthere's not share a different
ethnicity or race.
I'm like, I thank you for yourvulnerability and being able to
talk about your perspective.
Um, obviously Gaby and I havebeen together for 13 years, so
I've been able to really hearher challenges of living as, as
(39:20):
a mixed Latina and what that hasmeant for her.
And I've leaned a lot about it,but it's rare for me to hear
people so openly talk abouttheir experience as well.
And I think your vulnerabilityis a lot of what we're really
hoping to get out of thispodcast in the first place.
So it's just first off, thankyou so much.
And I think the, the other sideof this is I'm finding myself in
a vulnerable space as well.
(39:42):
Listening to you sort ofwondering of all of you who
identify as mixed in in one wayor another, how can I be an ally
to you?
Or in general, what doesallyship to you mean?
Marie Bigham (39:56):
That's a great question.
It's a big question.
Steve Frappier (40:00):
There's still adults that asked us.
So I, I, you know, I'm, I'm notgoing to say for you
specifically, but it'sinteresting the number of adults
that will pause and, and hearyou know, something in my voice
or like, you know, how I lookand then they'll just go, what
are you?
You know, and, and, and there'san I and, and we all know where
(40:24):
that comes from.
And that's just the way to getto it.
But it's, it's a, it's a crappyquestion, you know?
It's like that's something youask a dog owner.
Oh, well what is that?
You know, what is it, you know,like, describe, describe your,
your mut's, you know,composition, you know, um, and,
(40:48):
and really just be inquisitive.
you know?
Where'd you grow up, you know,where's your family from?
Um, versus the, what are you asif, as if it can be put into
three or four easy compartments,compartments for the person who
asked the question.
You know, cause there's so manyways that someone, uh, if you're
(41:11):
talking to someone who is intune with their intersections,
well, you know, what do youreally want to hear?
What are you ready for?
You know?
Um, so the, the culturalhumility part, think about how
our language is actually, um,hindering relationships because
we operate in all thesebinaries.
(41:31):
And what are you[inaudible] forme?
Is that it immediately I'mleaning out, but there's a
chance for redemption.
Marie Bigham (41:39):
It's such a great question to some extent,
actually, like literally in thethick of this right now as, um,
I had posted something fairlyvulnerable at, on pantsuit
nation today and I'm gettingsome pushback because I've been
pushing back and what I'm seeingpeople play out there is good
allyship is stepping in.
Or as we say with some snark,come get your people.
(42:03):
Hmm.
Come get your people.
Um, for me that means if I, ifI'm in a space where I, I'm in
the Asian community and peopleare talking about affirmative
action in the negative.
Or any number of things.
Like that's my community.
That's where I'm given privilegein the past, just by my
(42:23):
appearance and my worth.
And in some spaces, even withwhite people, especially like
with my white family.
So I learned how to be a goodally in these conversations.
Like come get your people when,when these conversations are
happening, when someone whofalls into your affinity
community who is going toautomatically give you privilege
(42:44):
and additional space because ofyour identity, um, when they're
doing something, come for them.
Because when we do, as someonenot in that community or as
people of color, the pushback isreally mighty.
But when someone they canidentify, corrects gently or
however it comes, it comes atthat that's received so
(43:07):
differently.
And so I think one of the firststeps in good allyship is to
really like be knowledgeable ofthat and to, and to take that
ownership.
I have to come get my own.
Gaby Acosta (43:21):
I think that's a brilliant place to close.
Um, thank you so much for beinghere.
I want to give you guys one morechance in this last couple of
minutes to talk to us a littlebit about what you guys are up
to right now.
I know you're going through abig life change and taking on a
big initiative.
So tell us more about that.
(43:42):
Tell our listeners what you're,what you're doing and how we can
support you.
Uh, thanks.
So we have a great website.
It's
Marie Bigham (43:50):
kind of starting a new but as a wonderful space for
our information.
For those of you not who, whodon't work in the college
admissions space and thatwebsite is acceptgroup.org.
Um, in the next couple of weekswe're gonna launch a couple of
really big initiatives with theone that we're incredibly
excited about that we hope yourlisteners, um, join us for and
(44:12):
participate in is going to be ayear long project called
"radically re-imaginedadmissions", where along with
the Rise Center from ColoradoState, we're going to have
online conversations in personmeetups, a hackathon and policy
papers where we're going to getthem out hopefully to impact the
(44:34):
election.
But with all of the myriad ofcontroversies going on in
College Admissions, we thoughtthis would be a really good time
for us to step back and say,hey, if we could rebuild this
whole crazy thing and focused onthe values that we, that we
believe are important and whatmight this process look like for
(44:54):
the student, for theinstitution, for any of the
people around the table who helpmake that happen, how might we
find greater equity and justiceif we just strip this whole
thing down and rebuilt it?
So that's something that we wantfolks of, of all spaces to jump
in, um, and to get involvedwith.
And you'll be able to find moreinformation on our website and
(45:16):
mid August about that.
Um,
Gaby Acosta (45:19):
And how can folks who aren't in admissions support
ACCEPT?
Marie Bigham (45:23):
Well, you know, as soon as we finish our 501c3
process, which is really goingto happen any minute now, we can
start to get, if we would loveyour donation, because what has
been kind of a free group thatwe've run online, um, we're not
operationalizing and it's, it'schanging form pretty rapidly.
So we could always use anyfinancial help if folks want to
(45:46):
collaborate from other a socialjustice organizations or or
community organizations.
We're always looking for folkswith whom to collaborate and
just share exciting ideas andinitiatives.
And I think the biggest waysomebody can support except is
to support an antiracistphilosophy and everything they
do.
Gaby Acosta (46:05):
That's phenomenal.
Thank you so much for all ofthis.
I want to give a huge shout outto the except community and for
all the amazing action you'reall taking every day to make
higher education more accessibleto all and we are just truly
inspired by everything thatyou've done.
So thank you for joining us fora short bit of your time today
(46:28):
and really sharing your storywith us.
We really appreciate it.
Marie Bigham (46:32):
Thank you.
Thank you for highlightingleaders of color and exciting
ways of looking at leadership.
I mean all of us need to amplifyeach other, so thank you for
your work.
Jenelle (46:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I have to say, I just put itout there before we officially
end is I think you guys areawesome.
I love just truly what you'redoing.
And the way that you speak aboutit and how much passion comes
from it and it, it really showsthat all of the work that you
have done is really because ofthat passion that comes from it.
(47:02):
The fact that your community isso active really stems from
that.
So that's amazing.
And thank you so much forsharing your time.
It's been really impactful forme listening to you talk about
what you're doing, especially ina space that's similar to what
I'm doing.
So thank you so much.
Marie Bigham (47:16):
Thank you!
Steve Frappier (47:17):
Thank you both.
We're so glad that we found andconnected with you of from a a
fellow ACCEPT member of, as youall were announcing the launch
of this podcast and I'm, I am,uh, I am a happy follower of it
already.
I just wish you all so muchsuccess with it and looking
forward to the stories thatyou're going to accumulate as a,
(47:41):
as we, as we grow together.
Gaby Acosta (47:44):
Yeah, it's an exciting process.
I'm finding all these beautifullittle niches on the Internet
creating change in their own,their own unique ways and it's
going to be a phenomenaljourney.
Getting to learn about all thesedifferent people, people doing
what they are passionate aboutand creating change in their own
ways.
(48:04):
What did you think?
Jenelle (48:06):
so A) I love them as human beings.
Yeah.
They're just wonderful andglowing and Steve talks so
passionately about everythingthat he does and I love, uh, I
love the thoughtfulness of Marieand how much talking about how
much work that she's put in intomaking sure that she is, she is
(48:29):
thoughtful of other communities.
I thought the comment about, youknow, black lives matter, coming
back and saying, where were youwhen we needed you?
And her being able to sit thereand maybe she had an initial
response, but be able to comeback and say, you know what?
You're right.
I'm wrong.
I think that that's so huge andimportant and to be able to do
(48:51):
it in a space that's so visibletoo.
And to be an example of whatthat looks like is so key to
just creating that larger chainreaction of other people being
able to do that too and get overtheir own ego.
Gaby Acosta (49:08):
Yeah.
To me that's a huge inspiration.
And an example of how I want tobe able to navigate that stuff
when inevitably we will becaught at called out for not
doing something in a certain wayand I want to practice taking
that in.
And then like, I think the wordsshe used were so wonderful.
(49:30):
It was learning to apologizewith humility.
Yeah.
That's so great.
Jenelle (49:37):
Um, I want to add into my vocabulary, cultural
humility.
It gives me a word to describewhat I've been trying to explain
for myself for so long is it'snot just understanding and
getting closer to the culturalfluency that she was talking
(49:59):
about.
It's the being able to say,okay, I messed up.
Or okay, I don't know.
Or okay, I'm willing to learnmore, or I know I need to
educate myself.
Right.
It's, it's everything that comeswith being an ally, that it's
not just knowing that it exists,but trying to help be a part of
(50:19):
the, the greater part of this.
And educating yourself andeducating others.
Gaby Acosta (50:24):
Yeah.
They both said something elsethat I was like, oh my God,
that's so beautiful.
It was like when you do thiskind of work, you need to
include team leaders who arealso people of color or
marginalized groups and not onlygive them a seat at the table
but let them run the table.
Yes, and I thought that was sowell said.
(50:47):
And I think this is an exampleof how, um, in general all
leadership, any leader can dothis to empower others who are
learning in any way, shape, orform.
But specifically those who don'ttypically get an even a seat at
the table is to give them achance and a safe space to run
(51:08):
the table.
I think that is so cool.
That idea.
I want to practice that.
I'm not quite sure exactly howyet, but I want to do it.
And it also at the same time, itgave me a feeling.
Jenelle (51:20):
Let's talk about feels.
Gaby Acosta (51:23):
My feeling was when we were thinking about starting
this podcast and also when I wasthinking about shifting my
career into diversity andinclusion, one of my very
initial reactions, tweaks, fearswas that because I can pass as a
multiethnic, multiracial personthat I felt like I didn't have
(51:46):
the right to do this and I, Iliterally checked in with my
people.
Like I checked in with all of mypeer mentors and mentors of
color to ask them specifically,am I crazy for doing this?
Is this a good idea?
Am I the right person to bedoing this?
And I went to several of myfriends, including Cedric, who
(52:09):
really encouraged me to startthis podcast.
He literally looked at me, hewas like, yeah girl, like why
are you waiting for somebodyelse to give you permission?
You have the tools and the rightlens and you're coming at it
from the right perspective,asking questions of other
people, letting them guide you.
So go be our ally.
(52:30):
Like go take, go take this andthe knowledge that you have and
do it.
And I don't think I would havebeen comfortable doing something
like this without thatencouragement from the community
that I want to bring with me andI want to support and, and be an
ally to.
Cause otherwise I felt like Iwas just like being a white
(52:52):
girl, you know, like, likesomebody with privilege coming
in and being like, I'm justgoing to help people who need
it.
And I feel like that's alwaysinherently a huge issues like
that savior martyr complex thata lot of people have.
And I just didn't want to buyinto that.
So I just thought on the piecethat ties us all back in is that
(53:15):
I was really worried that wewere going to start this podcast
as a queer couple and me being amixed Latina who can pass as
white and come at it with a lensthat was inappropriate because
we're not bringing someone torun the table who is more
(53:35):
marginalized than we are.
However, the way that I'mthinking about it right now is
that that's why we have ourguests on, right?
Like the whole point to me is tohave guests on who look and
experience the world differentlythan we do so that they can
share with us their experience.
So if it had just been ustalking about diversity and
(53:57):
inclusion as if like we knew allthe answers, I think that would
have been really problematic.
But because we are bringingpeople in, we are learning in
the process and so it makes mefeel a little bit better that,
you know, I at least that's avulnerability that I just like
suddenly like I felt it.
Jenelle (54:14):
Yeah.
I think, and I mean the otherside of this for me is I am a
white girl.
Like I'm not mixed.
I'm gay, but I'm not mixed.
Right.
And doing this has been, how doI explain this?
So I look at you and I say, youat least have some authority to
talk on this because you areLatina, you are marginalized.
(54:36):
Or at least you know yourcommunity is marginalized.
You at least...You can pass,right?
So that puts you in a verycomplex position within yourself
and internally that you've beenworking through.
But you still are a Latina.
I am not.
And so I have been feeling verysimilar to you that I really
want to make sure that I'm notco-opting this space and that
(54:59):
I'm not speaking out of turn.
But also I think I said itduring the last bit talking
about allyship and that I dofeel vulnerable asking them and
realizing, great, I'm now theone white like white person in
the room with the set of mixedpeople talking about their
(55:21):
experiences that I cannotnecessarily identify with.
I struggle with when do I speakup and when do I sit back and
just listen and make sure thatI'm listening and understanding
and I'm not stepping into muchwith my own, uh, not my own
opinion, but I guess my ownperspective on the situation
(55:43):
because that's not the, that'snot the point.
I want to hear from theirperspective and understand what
we can get out of that and takeand move forward with us.
And so I absolutely can relateto this feeling that you're
having, at least from myperspective of I am the white
girl in the room and how do Imake sure that I am showing that
I'm not an expert and I want tobe the one learning and that I'm
(56:05):
not overtaking the conversation?
Gaby Acosta (56:08):
Yeah.
Well the very fact to me thatyou're even thinking about these
things, that means that you'rebeing thoughtful in your
responses and in your actions.
So I just, I really appreciatethat about you in general in our
lives and in our relationshipand our friendships.
So, you know, I, I'm biased inthis situation, obviously being
(56:29):
your wife, but I just think thatthat's really unique and special
about you, that you're veryintrospective in every
conversation that you have andevery action that you take
almost to a fault.
However, like it leads to a lotof anxiety and like frustration.
However, I think like if wecould find a middle ground and
everyone could do that more andbe more thoughtful and
(56:52):
intentional in the way thatthey're addressing
conversations.
Asking better questions likeSteve Sad, right?
Like, instead of asking what areyou, you know, like if we could
just be more intentional aboutsaying like, oh, that makes you
feel like an object again, thatmakes you feel like something
not human.
So let me ask better questionsand say, hey, tell me more about
(57:15):
your background.
Like what, where are, where'syour family from?
How do you identify, you know,the, that kind of thing.
Um, instead of saying like,what, what are you, you like
weird creature that looksambiguous.
This is a cool conversation.
Jenelle (57:31):
Yeah, I like it.
They want to figure out how wecan support them more because
they are, they're really cool.
I love the fact that they saidthey wanted to start in their
own community.
That and the, the, the idea thatit's, I don't have to go out and
create a brand new community totry to make change.
(57:52):
I can start in the communitythat I already exist and just
start these conversations in thefirst place.
So in their world, that's how wecan impact making the admissions
process more inclusive.
The GRE is a barrier.
So how, how can we work aroundthis as a barrier for people who
might be marginalized in asocioeconomic status that can't
afford it?
(58:13):
It's just looking at where am Itoday and what can I do better
in the community that I'm intoday.
I love them.
I love them so much.
Gaby Acosta (58:20):
While you're leaving those voice memos on our
website the way we lead.com,please make sure to subscribe to
our newsletter for someadditional behind the scenes
materials.
We love our subscribers!
Jenelle (58:33):
You're the best!
Gaby Acosta (58:33):
Get some additional pictures and information and
stories, background informationabout how we got to certain
stories.
It's going to be fun.
This episode was produced by me,Gaby Acosta
Jenelle (58:45):
And cohosted by me, Jenelle Acosta.
Gaby Acosta (58:48):
Our music was written and produced by the
talented Emily Henry.
Here's Jenelle, singing us outwith this week's seed fund
sponsors.
Jenelle Acosta (59:03):
Emily Lynch, Emily Newhook, Erica Moss,
Gabriela Farias, Grace AndersonIsaac Dole(Hey cuz!)
Mellie (dog) (59:18):
[ Mellie Barks].
Jenelle Acosta (59:19):
Every time.
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