February 28, 2025 • 51 mins
Jefferson Calloway is a seasoned real estate investor, businessman, and Army veteran. Jefferson shares his journey from Maryland to building a portfolio of 27 rental properties across seven states. They discuss various real estate investing strategies, including house hacking, seller financing, and subject-to deals. Jefferson emphasizes the importance of taking bold actions, building a strong network, and leveraging the VA loan for veterans. The episode also touches on the benefits of real estate for wealth preservation and tax advantages. Real estate newcomers and seasoned investors alike will find valuable insights and practical tips for building wealth through real estate.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
That's why these house hackingis so appealing.
Like I said, I mean, if you usea house hack right now, somebody
watching your show to go buy aproperty zero out of pocket and
live in it and house hack it.
If you make even one dime,that's a million percent return
right there because you didn'tpay anything for it.
(00:25):
Welcome to The Wayfinder Showwith Luis Hernandez, where
guests discuss the why and howof making changes that lead them
down a more authentic path orallow them to level up in some
area of their life.
Our goal is to dig deep andprovide not only knowledge, but
actionable advice to help youget from where you are to where
you want to be.
(00:47):
Come join us and find the way toyour dream life.
Welcome back to the Wayfindershow.
I'm your host, Louie Hernandez.
And today is going to be a blackand white show because, as you
(01:08):
can see behind me, I have thewhite background and my guest,
Jefferson Calloway, has theblack background.
So that's quite the contrasthere.
That's pretty cool.
Uh, anyways, Jefferson is, uh,he's kind of a badass and you
know we like to have, uh,badasses on the show.
He is a real estate investor, abusinessman, a family man, a
veteran.
So thank you for your service,Jefferson.
(01:30):
Um, he has built A portfolio of27 doors across seven states in
three years.
Well, that was as of the timethat we, uh, we agreed.
So he, you know, to have him onthe show.
So he might even have more thanthat now, which we'll soon find
out about.
But Jefferson, uh, welcome tothe way finder show.
Thank you very much.
We, I really appreciate it.
(01:51):
And, uh, thanks for the support.
We really appreciate it astroops.
Yeah.
Which, uh, which branch were youin?
Army.
Oh, excellent.
Excellent.
Thank you very much.
So, um, so tell us about your,you know, let's let the
listeners learn a little bitmore about you.
What, what, uh, tell us yourjourney, your origin story.
Yeah, for sure.
So, um, I grew up on the Easternshore of Maryland and, and just
(02:16):
kind of have a very eclecticbackground, but, you know, got
into strength sports.
That's why a lot of people, ifthey ever end up on my
Instagram, you'll see a lot of,you know, health, fitness,
powerlifting, strength stuff.
Um, went to college forphilosophy and religion.
And it's not really until mylate twenties that I really
found my niche, which wasbusiness and real estate.
And so when I went into thearmy, um, let's see, I was 27
(02:40):
came out and was 31.
And that's when I first got intoreal estate.
And so I bought my firstproperty down in Fort Rucker,
Alabama, when I was a officer,um, going through officer school
and helipilot school.
In the army and a ball.
My first rental there, um,started a lot with how
attacking, you know, even when Icame back up to Maryland, my
second was a multifamily househack.
(03:02):
Um, VA loan is a very powerfultool for house hacking, um, and
getting, you know, the ballrolling on a real estate
portfolio, building wealth ingeneral.
So then when I came back toMaryland and bounced around a
little bit, um, you know, on theEast coast, so now I'm in middle
Delaware, work up inPhiladelphia, um, bought into a
home remodeling company therethat is just really, really
(03:24):
blown up and taken off.
We've doubled in business sinceI bought into it.
And, you know, Philadelphia is agreat place for it.
800, 000 homes and they're all ahundred years old.
So we have a ton of demand.
So I just make money there.
It put it back into real estateand that's how we started
building the portfolio.
So that kind of brings us up totoday.
Like you said, 27 doors.
(03:44):
We're remote investors.
So that's, um, all over sevenstates.
We're about to go into statenumber eight and we're about to,
we're under contract for threemore units over in, uh,
Abbottstown, Pennsylvania.
Oh, so that should, yeah,that'll probably close.
Uh, I would say within the next30, 60 days.
Yeah, seven states.
Where are they?
Because in the East Coast, youknow, where you are, that could
(04:06):
be all your neighbors, right?
So that, you know.
And it is.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Like, when I was down inAlabama, that was state number
one.
Um, and that's the only southernstate we're in now.
Um, when I came back up, yeah,it was a lot in the area.
So, there's quite a few multifamilies, a sixplex, et cetera,
in Maryland.
Delaware, a couple multifamilies, including where I live
(04:27):
now.
An Airbnb, a big, beautifulAirbnb that we really love in
Virginia, the lazy bear lodge,you can look that one up and
then Pennsylvania, Jersey.
And now more recently as of lastyear, um, we got really heavy
into creative finance, likeseller finance and subject to
purchasing property, uh,properties.
And a lot of those are in Ohio.
(04:47):
There's a lot of greatopportunities there because it's
still one of the remainingStates where the purchase.
Price to rent ratio still makessense.
So that was our seventh date.
Um, and then now we're going outinto Western PA.
Excellent.
Okay.
So let's, um, so a lot of ourlisteners probably don't know a
term that you used here calledhouse hacking.
(05:10):
Can you describe what that is?
Yeah, absolutely.
It's in my opinion, the best wayto get started in investing in
real estate, which is one of thebest stores of value and
builders of wealth you can everget into.
And it's basically just rentingout or making money.
With a property that you areliving in, and that can be
anything that traditionallypeople think by a duplex,
(05:32):
triplex, quadplex, that is thelimit per government backed
loans, which are the ones thatare low money out of pocket,
like V.
A.
F.
U.
S.
D.
A.
F.
H.
A.
Etcetera.
Conventional 5%.
So you can buy anything fourunits or under live in one unit,
rent out the rest.
And that's probably the one thatmost people have seen on
Instagram reels and their localgurus, et cetera.
(05:53):
But it doesn't have tonecessarily stop there.
Like I have a property right nowthat we're living in.
That's a couple of acres,beautiful property out in the
country in Delaware.
It's got a barn with a horsestall.
We You can sometimes rent outthat horse stall, um, I've heard
of people letting people rentout campers on their property,
um, there's just all types ofthings.
Rent out by the room.
I've done that many times.
(06:13):
If you can rent out other rooms,it doesn't have to be a
multifamily property.
So there are ways to house hack,even if it's not multifamily,
that is just the most commonway.
That's the people most peopleare familiar with.
Yeah.
I actually, uh, I highlyrecommend house hacking, which
is a newer term, right?
Probably only in like the last,I don't know, maybe five years.
I've heard it thrown around, butit's a strategy that's been
(06:35):
around for a long time, but wereally try to teach a lot of
first time home buyers who havea hard time, you know, affording
a mortgage now to use thatstrategy.
Uh, especially if you're young,I mean, I, you know, we're
trying to get my daughter, I hadan agent who fresh out of
college, bought a duplex, livedin one bedroom, rented the other
bedroom, Airbnb.
be right in the other side ofthe unit, Airbnb, she cashflow
(06:57):
positive in the city of Denver,which nobody does.
Right.
And, uh, by quite a few thousanddollars a month, uh, by doing
that, I mean, it's an amazingstrategy that it can be really,
really powerful.
And for you as a veteran, it'sprobably even more powerful,
right?
Because you, like you said, youused a VA loan.
So can you explain why you usethat and why that is such a
(07:18):
great strategy?
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's why house packing isso great because it's a twofold
benefit for starters.
Most people are, you know, Maybeintimidated by investing in real
estate because they think it'sexpensive and it is if you do it
a certain way, you know Even theaverage Investor who's maybe
savvy is gonna pay most of thetime 15 to 20 percent best case
(07:38):
scenario down for rentalproperty Even in a cheap market,
one to 200, 000, that's 000before we even get to closing
costs.
So the best benefit, in myopinion, the number one is the
fact that you can come with notas much money out of pocket and
you hit on something reallygreat, a young homeowner.
The average 401k retirement ageis 187, 000 in America.
(08:00):
The average home equity averageretirement age in America.
It's 360, 000, which meansinadvertently most of the time,
probably the best store of valuein the whole world is your
primary residence.
And that's something that youhave to have, even if, whether
you're an investor or not, it'ssomething you were going to have
anyway, a primary residence, aplace to live.
And that's number two, yourbiggest expense in America is
(08:22):
going to be most of the timeyour housing expense for most
Americans, 30 percent or more ofyour income.
So even if you don't have a homerun house pack, that's going to
make you money saving.
50 percent or more on your mostexpensive out of pocket expense
each month is a huge hack.
So I love the name househacking.
You get into real estate, youget into investing, you get into
wealth creation early, cheap,and even if you're not cash
(08:45):
flowing, it's still going totake a huge chunk out of your
biggest expense.
It's a real life hack.
Yeah, that's right.
And again, if you're young,usually you, you got roommates
already anyways, right?
So why not have them pay yourent, right?
Have them pay for your mortgagewhile you're there.
Um, again, another friend ofmine, he actually, he's in a
mastermind, young guy, reallysmart.
(09:05):
He was making a great, he hadhis first job out of college.
He was already making about 80grand a year and he bought
himself a house.
Uh, it had like four bedrooms,but he chopped it up like Turned
the living room, dining room,everything into more bedrooms,
the basement he finished it, putmore in there.
And he was still, that way hewas making like a couple
thousand dollars a month.
He ended up quitting his job atlike a couple years out of
(09:26):
college and he just loves life,you know, which is wild.
But again, I want to go back toanother and even, there's many
ways to do this.
The point is, there's many waysto do this.
Anywhere in the country, thestrategy might vary, right, by,
based on the housing stock orwhatever.
But, uh, there are many ways todo it.
(09:47):
You described a stable.
I never heard of that one.
That's a great one.
Right?
If you're out in a rural area,you say, you know, you got all
this land and a stable.
Hey, let people park their RVsthere and, and rent out the
stable for extra rent.
That's amazing.
But again, you had an evenbigger advantage, which was
you're a veteran.
And you got to use the VA loan.
(10:07):
Why is that such a greatadvantage?
So it's a great advantagebecause it not only has the
benefit of 0 percent down, somost of the other ones, you'll
get 5 percent down, 3.
5 percent down.
Those LTVs are amazing.
You can get into very Very bigdeals for very little out of
pocket using those, but VA iszero.
(10:29):
Also the private mortgageinsurance that comes along with
putting less than, uh, you know,getting into a less than 80
percent LTV loan, you know,that's a few hundred dollars a
month that it can eat up a lotof cashflow.
And if you structure the VAloan.
Um, you most of the time don'tpay PMI either.
So one of my first deals was aduplex in New Jersey and same
(10:51):
thing, I came to that closingtable with maybe 13 cents or
something silly because the VAloan is nothing out of pocket.
And the best part, I guess thesecond best part is the fact
that you can use it more thanonce.
A lot of people don't know that.
If you are a veteran, ifsomebody in your family is a
veteran, you can use it once.
You have to live in theproperty.
It's very important that, youknow, everybody understands you
(11:11):
by law have to live in theproperty.
You can't, if you use it for aninvestment, you are a criminal.
You have to live in theproperty.
And as soon as you live therefor a year and fulfill that
requirement, you can go out andleave, still keep that VA loan
and rent it out legally, andthen go buy another one with the
VA loan again.
So you have your, your totalamount that you can use.
(11:32):
I believe they call it anentitlement that allows you to
buy up to a certain amount ofreal estate, regardless of how
many properties that is.
So it's just a mentally powerfulmentally.
Yeah.
I mean, what an advantage in it.
And I'm so happy that ourcountry does this, uh, offers
this.
And I, I wish.
You know, uh, more of ourveterans did this because you
(11:54):
deserve to be rewarded and get,you know, own a piece of the
American dream after serving ourcountry.
Right.
Uh, but yeah, you, not only areyou able to get in with zero
down, like you said, possibly noPMI, um, but also your rates are
typically lower.
Um, Then the normal market rateright now, we're, we're hovering
around 7%, you know, give ortake depending where you are,
(12:16):
but you know, your, your, yourFHA and VA loans are, uh, about
a half a point less than that.
And then you can, so, so this issignificant.
Savings, which is great.
And yeah, like you said, I meanyou live there a year and a day
And uh, and then you can do itagain and just keep stockpiling
your portfolio And that's why Iadvise people when they're young
because um, you know Once youstart having a family those
(12:38):
moving around becomes reallyinconvenient It's not as fun,
you know, you're significantother with your kids.
It's a big pain in the butt.
You want to get settled and allthat.
So I recommend, you know, getout and do it as often as you
can.
I would be buying a house everyyear in a day.
You know, if I, if I could, it'sjust a great way to get the
portfolio.
(12:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
And what I like about it is thefact that, like you said, you
lock in all the rate to beginwith, but the average American
moves every eight years and mostpeople sell, buy another one,
sell, buy another one.
Well, most of, because the banksknow that, anybody who's seen
the amortization tables hereknows all that interest is front
loaded.
So if you start, like you said,young.
(13:21):
Buy a property, keep it, rent itout when you buy your new one
and just hang on to that old oneas long as you can.
Eventually that amortizationtable flips and you start paying
off equity, start paying offprincipal and less interest
every month.
And that is when the real wealthcreation comes because you get a
couple of properties increasingin value, loan pay down, gets
(13:42):
more and more every year.
It's a crazy, crazy hack.
When you start combining theseprinciples, they have synergy.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
You know, and along those lines,we're in danger of geeking out
on real estate today.
So apologies to our real estatelisteners, I mean, non real
estate listeners, but you know,um, we've, we've all, we all now
(14:03):
all in this country understandinflation, right?
Cause we just went through crazyinflationary times, right?
And we all get it just by if webuy eggs, right?
But housing inflation is.
Always been this way.
I mean, 5 percent inflation onhousing in most markets in the
U.
S.
is kind of a standard.
I think the average for like thelast 20 years was about 5
(14:24):
percent in this country.
So, and that usually willoutpace Inflation, right?
We're, we're fighting hard toget back down to a 2 percent
inflation.
So if you really think about it,you buy a house, you lock it in
and yeah, that value is going upevery year at 5 percent in, you
know, so it's just like you are,you are getting, you're living
(14:44):
in a place.
Hold on.
You hold on to it, and it ismaking you more money, more
wealthy, um, you know, thelonger you hold on to it, right?
So, and if you've gotten used toYeah, completely agree.
Yeah, if you got used to gettingin by renting it out, uh,
initially as you were househacking, you lived in there,
rented to roommates or the otherunits to other tenants or
(15:05):
whatever, then just keep doingit.
Hold on.
Hold on for a long time.
And you can, you can, uh, reallybuild a lot of wealth that way,
right?
Completely agree.
So well said.
And really, I think a lot of itis about flipping your mindset.
Most people who work a W 2 jobhate Mondays.
Well, as soon as you become anentrepreneur, Mondays can be
your favorite day of the week.
(15:25):
Well, in real estate, you know,most Americans, we all hate
inflation because it means ourgrocery bill goes up, this and
that.
Well, what if you're in real?
Estate and inflation means thatyour portfolio grows in value by
10 percent every year.
You're going to love inflationin that case.
And nobody loves inflationbecause it's not good for your
country.
So if you're patriotic, that'snot right.
But in general, you can at leastnot be afraid of it anymore.
(15:46):
So be be part of the rich orwhoever or the wealthy who
invites or is not afraid ofinflation because it benefits
you build an asset portfolio.
Yeah, totally.
So, you know, you, you got 27doors in seven states.
I'm assuming, you know, youhaven't lived, you haven't been
building this portfolio for 27years in 27 days, that would be
(16:09):
right across the seven states.
So that's not the only strategyyou've used, right?
I know you mentioned a fewothers at the beginning, some
seller financing, some sub two,what are, what are some of those
strategies you're using toacquire these properties?
Yeah.
So if you're looking for asingle family and if you're
looking in the right markets, mymarket was Alabama where I was
stationed.
(16:29):
The property there actually isreally cheap and the price to
rent ratio is good.
One of the first properties Iever bought was for 70, 000.
It was a little townhouse,single family, two or three
bedroom, I forget which.
And that thing now rents forlike 1, 200 and the mortgage is
still 450.
So as long as you're in theright area, um, your single
families can still do reallywell.
(16:51):
And the way you purchase thosecan be as low as, um, 15 percent
down without living in it.
This is not an owner occupiedloan, but most lenders, and I
even know a couple of creditunions that'll go down to five
on single families investmentproperties.
So you can still go to theconventional, the traditional,
um, bank route and do well andhave low out of pockets expense
(17:12):
and, you know, have goodvelocity in building your
portfolio.
The better way to do it, in myopinion, because it allows you
to do it in any state, anywhereyou want, anytime is creative
finance.
You know, I, I believe I.
Pace Morby is going to be madefamous for coining the term, but
subject to and seller financeare incredibly, incredibly
powerful tools for buyinganywhere with low money out of
(17:34):
pocket.
So for example, last year, mostof what we bought in Ohio was
either subject to seller financeor some combination of the two,
for those that don't know, youjust subject to is just taking
over an existing mortgage andmaking payments on a mortgage
that is in somebody else's nameand already in place.
You don't go out and get yourown loan.
And then seller finances, justas it sounds, you know.
No, basically the seller isfinancing you.
(17:56):
They're saying, I'll give youthe house.
You just make a monthly paymentto me.
Usually involves a down payment,but it's usually way less than
what you would pay a bank.
So they're just incrediblypowerful tools to get into these
properties, these rentalproperties.
There's no occupancyrequirement.
It's low money out of pocket.
And also you're usually you orthe wholesaler.
I bought a lot of propertiesfrom wholesalers are the ones
negotiating the deal.
(18:16):
So if you're a good negotiator,you're going to get great terms,
which means you're going to havelow out of.
Pocket expense each month, yourloan payments going to be low
each month with future cashflows higher.
So you can get better deals,faster deals, keep going faster
because you keep more money inyour pocket as an investor.
Um, it's really, reallypowerful.
Those would be the three ways Iwould do it other than house
hacking to move fast and realestate and investing.
(18:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's really good.
Let's dissect those one by one.
Uh, so, so seller financing, bythe way, no, with no disrespect
to pace Morby, these terms havebeen around for ages.
Every time there's a turn in themarket I did in 2008 crash, I
was doing a lot of subject toand all kinds of stuff.
People haven't even might'veforgotten the term short sales
(18:59):
now cause we don't see themanymore, but they're going to
come back and all these are justgo in cycles.
Right?
So, so, but like sellerfinancing subject to let's take
seller financing Is essentiallyan owner who has equity in the
property and they are financingtheir equity to you.
Right.
It could be all of it.
Um, it's part of it.
What have you, right.
(19:23):
And really one of the best.
Go ahead.
No, you please.
I was just going to say, one ofthe ways he describes it, which
I really think is genius, isthat one is pain and one is
gain.
For a property owner, usuallysomebody maybe older that's a
tired landlord, et cetera, theirhouse is paid off.
(19:45):
And if, let's say, they're goingto sell the house, what do they
plan on doing with that money?
You know, most of the time theyhave a little bit of money,
they've already got a retirementplan, most of them are already
retired.
But he retired, so they're morethan willing to just leave the
money, you know, in the propertyand just take a monthly payment
from you.
And they usually get some sortof interest, some sort of, some
(20:06):
sort of down payment, but theydon't owe any note to the bank.
So they can just basically say,you take this property, give me
50, 000 right now.
And then instead of the bankgetting 7 percent on you buying
my property, I'll take the 7%.
They become the bank and anybodywho has really seen what
interest adds up to over 30years on a 30 year fixed
mortgage.
Basically, every time somebodybuys the house, they're buying
(20:27):
that bank a house too.
So seller finance is powerfulfor both parties.
It's powerful for the buyer andfor the seller.
A lot of people make theirliving for teller financing
properties to people.
I know a lot of people that'll.
Seller finance the house thebuyer forecloses or sorry the
buyer defaults and they take thehouse back and sell to somebody
else I know guys have sold thesame house five times.
Yeah, so it's very powerful forboth parties and it's also kind
(20:50):
of misunderstood I think forthat reason it's not you're not
getting over on the seller.
The seller is is winning too.
It's a win win That's right.
Yeah, so, so for people whowonder why would a seller do
that, you're right, those aresome of the reasons.
Other ones are also veryadvantageous tax wise, I mean,
uh, you know, when a sellersells a home, oftentimes they
have to pay a big capital gainsamount from all that gain that's
(21:11):
happened in the appreciation.
So they'd rather say, oh no,we'll just lend it, you know,
you know, you the money on itand they're not paying as much,
right?
Um, that's something to consultwith a CPA on.
So yeah, if you don't need a bigchunk of change to a seller,
that's more advantageous.
They'd rather have the cashflow.
Right.
And, uh, and I've also seen, um,where they provide almost, you
know, they, they might, youknow, it doesn't, they don't
(21:34):
have to own the whole houseoutright.
They can sell it with, you know,the existing one in place, like
you described subject to, andthen the gap between that and
the equity is another amount.
You know, um, or, or just, uh,you know, suitable mortgages, I
think pretty much more commonnow, much easier to do, I think,
than they were, you know, 15years ago.
(21:54):
Um, but you can assume an oldmortgage and, uh, because
there's more of those available.
And then, uh, And then useseller financing for that gap if
you don't have it if there'senough equity there as well Uh,
so there's a lot of ways tostructure that.
Yeah, what about that one?
I was telling you about theThat's uh coming up in
(22:16):
abbottstown is a hybrid dealwith exactly what you're
describing a lot of people don'tknow you can assume All types of
government loans in some ofthese conforming loan documents,
they teach you how to eitherassume or take the mortgage over
subject to.
So I'm assuming half of thispurchase price, assuming loan
meets is qualifying for it foryour viewers, and then they're
still financing the other half.
So it's like a hybrid deal.
(22:36):
So you can combine thesemethods.
It's really great.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
I've even seen some, Jefferson,where, uh, actually there's a
gentleman I know that has a dealout in Lawrenceville, Kentucky,
I believe it is, that he's beentrying to get me to buy it from,
it's an old gas station with abunch of land that you can
develop, and, and he's offeringit for, I forget the amount for
the land and the property and,and all that, but, um, He's also
(22:59):
willing to roll in extra cash.
Um, and he'll own it and he'llfinance the whole thing, like
the land, the property and cash.
So then you have cash.
You're walking out with cash togo and develop the property.
Right.
Which is neat.
And you see that more times thannot.
So there's all kinds of creativestructures.
(23:20):
Right.
So this is cool.
How about subject?
This is You mentioned, you know,Sub 2, some people call it, um,
This is, uh, making a big timecomeback.
You mentioned Pace Morby.
He's a big influencer in thespace.
He's really, uh, uh, you know, Iknow he puts on boot camps and
everything, and he's really, uh,become a popular figure with
(23:40):
this, and a lot of people areusing it and becoming aware of
it.
How would you describe that?
Yeah, um, definitely just takingover an existing mortgage,
assuming qualifying for it,subject to is basically just
leaving the existing loan inplace and not qualifying for it.
So, it's a little bit riskier inmy opinion, but it's even more
(24:03):
powerful because the You don'thave to negotiate for an
interest rate, the interest rateis already in place.
And there's now, because of whatwe went through during COVID, a
whole treasure trove of lowinterest rate mortgages out
there that you can go and takeover subject to.
So one of the challenges yet isthat technically the bank is
probably not going to want tohear about it because you're
(24:24):
changing title without payingoff the loan and they don't
necessarily like that.
that.
But it's also not illegal.
There's nothing, you know,inherently wrong about it.
Um, the reason why they probablydon't like it is just because
somebody's responsible for aloan.
Now that is, uh, not one thatqualified for it.
However, if you think about it,they really shouldn't have too
much of a problem with it.
Because if somebody most of thetime, that's why Always refers
(24:48):
to it as a pain type situation.
A lot of the reason the subjecttwo has come up is because
somebody might have gotten intotrouble that you can save a, a
lot of the subject two I boughtis saving somebody from
foreclosure.
They were going to foreclose andhave that on their record for
however long, seven years, andyou just come along and take
over the mortgage so that, um,they don't have that happen.
(25:14):
And then you just start makingthe payments.
You log into the portal.
Um, make the payment for them.
And then a lot of the times theunsung hero of it is you get to
work your way into a loan that'salready two, four, six, 10 years
into its amortization schedule.
So like we talked about earlier,all these mortgages are front
loaded with interest.
Well, subject to you might'vealready gotten through 10 years
(25:36):
and you might be paying now moreprincipal than you are interest.
It's incredible.
Yeah.
So a few things I want tohighlight there, if you don't
mind.
So my understanding when I wasdoing subject to back in the day
was basically you're takingtitle to the property subject to
the existing mortgage and that'swhere the term came from.
Right.
(25:56):
So, um, but, and like you said,it is usually a distress
situation.
So, um, You know, I, I, I, Ilike to make people aware, you
know, uh, you know, use your ownethics here on it all.
But, you know, you wanna be fairto, I think to the owner,
they're in a hardship situation,could have been, you know, a
(26:16):
death, divorce, uh, you know,they just lost their job,
bankruptcy, all kinds of issuesthat could happen, right?
And, and oftentimes they justneed to get out of this.
Uh, and it is a relief to them.
However, they often cannotreally rebuild because they do
have this existing mortgage intheir name out there.
So it's just, it is somethingyou want to, they can't usually
(26:38):
go out and buy another housebecause they're not going to get
a mortgage if, you know, um, ifthey have this other one in
place.
Or, or, I mean, there are ways,I guess, if you have the income
or all that, but just, uh, you,you want to be really fair.
You want to be really, you, youknow, the, the risk is really in
the homeowners, um, I think it'sa greater risk to them than to
(26:58):
you, and oftentimes, so youreally, really want to make sure
you operate with high ethics,high morals, and be really fair
to the owner on those kind ofsituations, but otherwise, yeah,
it's a great way to helpsomebody out and yourself,
right?
Yeah, I completely agree.
I mean, you already know, as asoldier, integrity always comes
(27:19):
first.
Um, and the way I always dealwith it, because it can be a
gray area, is I always just ask,what is the alternative?
What will happen if you don't doit?
And for most people, foreclosureis the worst thing that can
happen.
So, some may view it as takingadvantage of somebody that's in
a distressed situation, andthat's fine.
You know, if somebody wants totake that ideology to the grave,
that's fine.
But ultimately, both people win,because honestly, once you take
(27:41):
over the mortgage, and aninvestor is Statistically
speaking, more likely to be in agood place to be able to keep
that mortgage paid up.
That actually builds theircredit.
A lot of people don't thinkabout that part.
You know, we, we have a vestedinterest as investors to keep
that loan paid up, um, keepbuilding credit.
And then you can also show a newlender, if they want to go buy
another house, as I'm sureyou're aware, Louie, you can,
(28:04):
for one, prove that somebodyelse is paying that mortgage and
you are not.
And there's a bunch of differentways to do that.
Um, loan servicing companies cando stuff like that.
They can write letters and say,after a year, especially, um,
this guy whose name is on thisloan, he is not paying any of it
and that gives all his DTI powerback to him.
And they can go and qualify fora loan.
(28:24):
I've seen it happen.
No, yeah, you're, you're exactlyright.
As long as you, as long as yougo about it the correct way,
it's, it's an absolutely magicalthing.
So both parties, it really is.
Yeah.
It's a, it's a great one.
And like you said, uh, you know,pre COVID our rates were, you
know, two and a half to 4%.
So, uh, those are great rates tothat make a lot of numbers work
(28:46):
as an investor now.
And, and it could, you know, uh,allow somebody to get out of
their house when otherwise theycouldn't.
Right.
So, yeah.
Excellent.
What, um, what, so, so is mostof the property that you're
taking just, uh, you're, you're,you're looking for, what is it,
what is your exact strategy?
(29:07):
I mean, you look for any type ofproperty that will cashflow or
you mentioned, uh, the cost torent, uh, ratios, the price to
rent ratios.
Like what, what is that for you?
Yeah.
So, I mean, the easiest rule ofthumb I, I have gone with over
the years is just the 1 percentrule.
(29:27):
You know, as long as thepurchase price is sorry, as long
as it will rent for long termrent here, 1 percent of what the
purchase price is, then you'vegenerally got to deal a little
cashflow and everybody has theirown personal threshold.
But for me as an investor, it'susually one to 200 of free
cashflow.
I'm talking net cashflow afterall expenses paid.
(29:48):
Uh, per door.
So if it's a quadplex, I need tohave mortgage, maintenance,
utilities, snow removal, everyother expense you can possibly
think of capex.
All has to be paid as long asthere's one to 200 left per door
at the very end.
So for a quadplex or 800, thenthat's a good deal.
The second part that makes agood deal is if it's low money
(30:10):
out of pocket, you know, if Imake 10 grand a year on it.
You know, net income on aproperty that I put a hundred
grand out of pocket into 10%.
I'll just go do the stock marketfor that.
So it has to be low money out ofpocket.
That's why these house hackingis so appealing.
Like I said, I mean, if you usea house hack right now, somebody
(30:30):
watching your show to go buy aproperty zero out of pocket and
live in it and house hack it.
If you make even one dime,that's a million percent return
right there because you didn'tpay anything for it.
So the, really the strategy isdoes it cashflow, which for me,
I always use.
30 percent of gross monthlyrent, total gross monthly rent
minus 30%.
That'll pretty much account forall your expenses.
(30:52):
You can have vacancies 5%, CapExis 5%, maintenance, utilities,
etc.
If all of that, your total grossmonthly rent minus 30 percent
minus your mortgage payment,PITI, principal interest tax
insurance, whatever's left afterthat, that is your true monthly
cash flow.
So as long as it cash flows, oneto 200 per door.
It's, I like to use the rule 10,000 or less per door out of
(31:15):
pocket, depending on the deal.
You know, some of this stuff canchange if it's a really high
appreciating area, an Airbnbthat changes everything, stuff
like that.
But as long as it meets thosetwo criteria, you're generally
looking at a good deal.
I would say the only caveat tothat, and this goes back to the
whole cashflow versusappreciation debate is if you're
in like a Toledo, Ohio, or, uh,you know, a Cumberland,
Maryland, a place that's really,really maybe D E class, um, in
(31:39):
real estate.
And those properties, you'll beable to find very, very cheap
stuff at incredible rent ofprice ratio.
So I would say any place wherethe median household income is
60, 000 or more would be thelast caveat because any, any
place like that, you can go andbuy a quadplex for 60 grand in
cashflow.
That's fine, but it's nevergoing to appreciate.
So those would be the main threeif I had to pick them.
(32:01):
Yeah, yeah, I would, um, youknow, I live in Denver now, but
I came from Baltimore, Maryland,where, so it's two extremely
different markets, right?
Like, Already know.
Yeah.
So, uh, I'll tell you, I mean,in Baltimore, I, I mostly
flipped and I regret it becausereally it was a great cashflow
market and I had some rentalsthere and, and it really is a
fabulous, uh, uh, you know,appreciate, uh, I mean, uh,
(32:25):
cashflow market, but theappreciation.
You know, I, I think as of 2019,my last home in, in Baltimore
had just gotten back to the pre2008 prices in 2019, you know,
so it's like, there's really noappreciation in markets like
that.
I mean, you know, now it's, it'sbeen doing well the last couple
(32:46):
of years, but you know, it's along time, but you know, here in
Denver, a lot of people just buyalmost for net.
Uh, for, for flat cash flow justbecause of the appreciation
historically is so high.
So, uh, we we've been a littlemore stagnant.
I think these, uh, last coupleyears, but you know, We're
starting to see the turn again,and then you just start to see
(33:07):
like outrageous, uh,appreciation here.
So people will just, you know,buy something just to break even
knowing that in a couple yearsThat's just gonna skyrocket,
right?
So Yeah, and it's not a badplay.
I mean honestly Uh, and I've,I've been back and forth with a
lot of Henry Washington back andforth about the debate, but
(33:29):
really what it comes down to, Ithink cashflow is really just
more for safety.
Maybe at the end of your life,after 20 years, you'll have some
good monthly cashflow that youcan retire on.
Sure.
But for the most part, cashflowis for safety.
Appreciation is for wealthbuilding and net worth growing.
It really is.
Yeah, talk a little bit moreabout that because we, before we
got on the air, we, uh, we'retalking about real estate for
(33:53):
wealth preservation versuswealth building, right?
And this is, I, I'm a, I'm alittle embarrassed to admit
this, you know, I'm, I'm aboutto turn 49 and I'm just really,
it's just a thought that hasonly consciously.
Entered my mind in the lastmaybe year or so that that just
makes a lot of it's reallyreally hard to get wealthy in
Real estate, right?
(34:13):
Even though we all think aboutreal estate that tycoons and all
that but it's actually reallydifficult Why is that?
Well, I think first and foremostpeople just underestimate the
cost I mean, 100 percentpassively, which in my opinion,
that's what I do Everything getsout of source to property
(34:33):
management.
I don't do Anything myself, butI mean, even getting deals as
cheap as I'm getting them andhe's even getting them with the
cashflow that I'm getting themfor.
It's just not, I mean, you'retalking hundreds of dollars,
maybe per door.
And I get it.
If you got 27 doors, okay.
That's, that's quite a bit, butcompared to what you could be,
(34:54):
you know, that's not enough toreplace a job.
27 doors is a lot, actually.
I mean, for the average.
So that means somebody wouldhave to take what I have double
it or triple it.
And that's just to make likeyour.
You know, maybe a 60 to 100, 000salary.
Go get a job.
You can make that a lot faster.
It's not for making money.
One of the reasons why it worksso well is because all you have
(35:16):
to do, your bare bones minimumis just to break even and your
loan pay down and yourappreciation will grow your net
worth.
That's how I hit my firstmillion in net worth was just,
just, it wasn't the cap.
It was just sitting there andletting it appreciate and loan
pay down.
You're already delegating thetask of the mortgage payment to
a tenant.
So most people like to watchtheir home value, their primary
(35:38):
home value go up on Zillow.
We all love to do that.
It's really fun to watch yourequity grow.
We'll now multiply that by awhole portfolio and every single
year, every single COVID yearwhere it shoots up the values
going up, but it's like.
Two fold because as time goeson, that loan pay down gets more
and more.
It's more and more principled,but you keep adding more and
more to the portfolio.
So one of the reasons why it'ssuch a great net wealth building
(36:00):
tool is because it hits fromthree different angles and that
is before we get to the tax,it's the best tax haven in the
whole wide world last year, Ihad a problem.
I think it was between a 60 and70, 000 tax bill federal.
And because I got real estateprofessional status, which for
people to know just means You doreal estate somewhat full time
(36:23):
because I'm a contractor.
So that's technically a realestate profession.
And what that allows you to dois bonus depreciate properties
and take these massive, massivelosses that are only on paper.
I'm not actually losing anymoney, but they're on paper
losses for every property thatyou buy.
So the bigger portfolio youbuild, the more you can write
off these huge losses againstyour active income.
(36:43):
And so you end up on 60, 70, 000getting a 000 tax return.
So If we don't even talk aboutthe tax benefits, it's just one
of the best wealth builders inthe world.
And once you get a tax bill likethat, or a tax refund like that,
stick it right back in realestate.
That's right.
Yeah, what I've learned is, um,especially now, I work with more
(37:07):
family offices and institutionsand high wealth individuals, and
they all make, you know, theirmoney in something else.
And then they all go to realestate.
I mean, just more and morepeople who are anti real estate
people.
They find out, you know, theystart to realize how much they
have to pay in taxes.
You know, they have a hard timemaking the kind of money they
got lucky with once.
(37:27):
Uh, which, you know, it isn'tall luck, it's hard work and all
that.
But luck plays a big deal inbuilding wealth.
And I think any wealthy personwill tell you that too.
But, um, so they, um, theyrealize real estate is the place
to go.
Because you're right, it helpsyou.
It's very tax advantaged.
You're taking Basically fakelosses all the time on paper
while it's going up in value andhopefully it's cash flowing as
(37:49):
well I mean, it's just nothingelse like it, you know, and now
there's all kinds of greatprograms There's things called
opportunity zones and such thatyou know, we won't get into
here, but I've got client who'vemade you know Eight figures in
another big business, andthey're afraid of paying a tax
bill, and they're putting itinto an opportunity zone
(38:10):
development and therefore nothaving to pay any of the taxes.
They're delaying that tax, andthen all the money that grows
off of that, they won't have topay any tax if they keep it in
there, which is.
Just amazing stuff.
And that, that's why real estateis powerful.
It's not to actually get richoff of it initially.
It's, it's find another way tomake, get rich and then get
(38:32):
richer and preserve that.
Uh, because we are going tocontinue to inflate, have
inflation and lose the value ofour dollar over time.
Right.
Anyhow, well, this is exciting.
Absolutely.
And I love that you said thatbecause it's like, you can't
stop inflation, but make it workfor you.
How's that?
Cause I, I can't imagine thepeople that go to their
(38:53):
accountants and I'm, my accounttells me all the time, you know,
how often he gets, what can Ibuy?
What can I expense?
What can I write off?
Everybody, the first step is tomake it.
Second step is to preserve it.
So as soon as people startmaking money, like you said,
they start panicking.
Well, how do I deal with thistax bill?
The first question left is whatcan I buy?
What can I buy?
And instead of, Hey, what if Ibuy a G wagon this year, a good
(39:13):
account will tell you, Hey, gobuy a building.
That'll be great.
Great.
Right off depreciation for you.
That's right.
Yep.
Cool.
Well, Jefferson, this has beenfun, uh, having actually geeked
out on real estate on this showin a long, long time.
So, uh, it's kind of, kind ofcool.
Um, but on that note, why don'twe hop over to our world famous
(39:33):
Wayfinder 4?
You're our first Wayfinder 4,uh, answer of 2025.
So, um Boop, boop! That's right.
So Jefferson, give us a hack.
This is something you use tokind of cheat life with every
day like a life.
(39:55):
Oh about anything.
Oh, okay.
Sure.
Yeah.
Um, I would say probably thebiggest tag you can do is just
to be bold because I heardsomebody say a funny one.
If you talk to yourself as if tosay, How funny would it be if I
did this and it actually worked,or if I did this and got away
(40:17):
with it, or if I did this andended up like getting rich
somehow.
Yeah, that's a good way to talkto yourself, because a lot of
the time it's the truth.
Fortune favors the bold, and alot of times, like I've heard,
uh, Dan Martell say a lot,you're never gonna make more
than you think you deserve tomake.
Imposter syndrome is such a realthing.
So stop limiting yourself, bebold, whatever you think this
(40:37):
crazy thing is, just go do it.
I don't care what it is.
Shoot first, ask questionslater, because you just don't
have that much time.
And one of the biggest secretsof the wealthy that I have
learned, Cody Sanchez talksabout it all the time.
A lot of heavy hitters talkabout it all the time, is
velocity, speed.
The best guys in the world thatare doing it fast, or sorry,
doing it big, are doing it fast.
(40:58):
Make decisions quick, be bold,and stop being so scared of
everything.
Stop listening to your aunt's,uncle's, grandma who, you know,
didn't do so well in real estatebecause of one bad rental one
time.
Stop it.
Just go do it.
Make it happen, make mistakes,and be bold.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Some of our listeners know I, Igot wiped out in a way and I was
(41:18):
scared and I would have, I stillcarry a lot of that trauma and
it slows me down and it holds meback.
And, uh, unfortunately, but youknow, you know what happened
after 2008 was we had thegreatest real estate boom in the
history of our country, youknow, and I didn't participate
for 10 years of that because Iwas just scared.
And I was just like, oh, realestate is it doesn't work.
(41:39):
It's you know, and I'm like wowWhat if I just would have
quickly learned and moved on andgone back at it again, you know
So I think your your advice isreally great You know, what
about a favorite this could beanything book show activity
Whatever.
(42:02):
Um, I would really have to sayand I don't know if it really
counts But it's kind of allencompassing would be Bigger
pockets.
I mean, good Lord, I owe so muchof my life to bigger pockets
because it's not just a forum.
It's a community.
And this community includes someof the most powerful, powerful
names for getting started,continuing on getting to the
(42:23):
heavy hitter status and justwealth in general and mindset,
you know, cause they're kind ofintertwined the two.
So you go on bigger pocketsright now.
And if you're looking at.
Rentals.
They have tools for that.
They have people for that.
They have forums for that.
Every single year.
I go to BP con with my wife andwe have a whole friend group
mastermind that I met there.
We have zoom calls where we geton and talk about what deals
(42:44):
we're doing.
And we collaborate with eachother every single week.
We met at BP con.
Which is the convention, thebigger pockets has every time
this big forum.
I mean, we just love being onthere.
They have every tool, a lot ofthe big names that I follow and
listen to every single day.
I mean, every, what have wetalked about today?
Cody Sanchez, pace, Morby, uh,David green's another big one.
(43:05):
I mean, all these guys that are,will really just help you in
wealth, which is a big thing,but also your mindset.
All I found out about throughBiggerPockets, the BiggerPockets
podcast, the YouTube channel,they're awesome.
That's what I would recommend.
I love BiggerPockets.
And I've been, I've beenlistening since the beginning to
their podcast.
It's one of the, you know, whenit was Jen, Brandon and Josh,
(43:27):
you know, uh, I think Josh isthe founder.
And they're based here out ofDenver.
So I'm pretty fortunate.
They put on some events everyonce in a while.
Just a great community, like yousaid.
Really?
Yeah.
So, um, what about a piece ofadvice for your younger self?
Oh, gosh.
(43:47):
I would, I would duplicate whatI said earlier.
That's the truth.
But, uh, the other thing I thinkprobably even better would have
been just get around higherperforming and higher minded
people.
I grew up in a community thatwas very small, and I know
that's a very common story inAmerica.
So many of us grew up in thesesmall towns.
And unfortunately, that comeswith overwhelmingly, um, small
(44:09):
minds and, um, you know, it'shard to bounce ideas off of
people who are thinking sosmall.
And, It's cliche, but it's thetruth.
I've seen it a thousand timesover.
Your network is your net worth.
You're the average of the fivepeople you spend the most time
with.
The biggest decision you'll evermake is your spouse.
All that stuff is so true.
Just get around heavy hitters asfast as you can.
(44:30):
Masterminds are a great way todo it.
That basically becomes your newfriend group.
If you have a mastermind, join amastermind as soon as you can
get around high performers asfast as you can and stay there.
And if that means leaving oldfriends behind.
I'm sorry, buddy.
What do you want in your life?
Wealth and high mindedness?
Or just comfort all the time?
You will have to leave somefriends behind, and that sucks.
(44:51):
But, what do you want to do withyour life?
If you want to do somethinggreat, it's gotta be done.
Because your friends,unfortunately, as much as
they're boys, you might be.
They might be holding you back.
That's not all of them.
But a lot of times that's thecase.
So I just listened to Cody citea study where they said,
statistically speaking, thosewho sat even just near didn't
even have to talk to him, justsat near high performers in a
(45:12):
call center.
They themselves performedhigher.
It's just a fact.
Yeah, you can you can feel theenergy from a real badass,
right?
Like when you're around somebodywho's just a killer you feel it,
you know, and and that rubs offthat really rubs off So you're
absolutely right.
Yeah, what about a bigopportunity or a limiting belief
(45:35):
pick one and just kind of talkabout Maybe a big opportunity
you're chasing or a limitingbelief you've had or something
like that.
Yeah, for sure.
So one of the ways I find dealsis on Facebook and that, that
might sound crazy, but if youjoin a Facebook group for, and
you know, in real estate,wholesalers is the big one.
(45:57):
They're just dying to get youdeals.
That's how they make their moneyis finding investors and selling
them deals that they have foundwith sellers.
And one of the things that goeson is, uh, They sell companies
every once in a while,especially if you get into a
group where you've got businessbrokers, uh, people are
wholesaling companies and likewe talked about real estate's a
great way to preserve yourwealth and build it.
(46:19):
I got that, but making the moneyusually happens in business, so
a big opportunity would be, um,a big business deal that, um,
we're working on it right now,but it's to purchase a big home
remodeling company.
Someone told the one I alreadyhave in Philadelphia and, um.
It would basically just be asilent investor spot for a
(46:41):
company that's already doingwhat we're doing here.
So none of the work, but all ofthe passive revenue.
Um, and that's a great way to doit.
Cause you know, these companies,you know, they'll gross anywhere
between, you know, five and 10million and the margins, you
know, they usually are takenhome 20 to 35 percent of that
after all expenses.
So I really think, um, buyingbusinesses is a big opportunity.
(47:03):
That's one of the ones I've gotcoming up.
And I would encourage everybodyto do the same thing.
If you're just working in onebusiness, that's awesome.
Take it to the moon if you can.
But as soon as you feel yourselfhitting the ceiling, buy another
one.
Yeah, that's a, that's a growingspace too, right?
Buying businesses, uh, andthere's a lot of great
opportunity and opportunitiesfor growth, uh, for creativity
(47:24):
there too, seems like.
What about, uh, Yeah, soJefferson, if people want to
know more about you, I saw your,your, uh, your, your Instagram
site, maybe you can lead peoplethere, or your other websites,
or what have you.
I noticed on Instagram you,you're also pretty diesel too,
so it looks like you, you'requite into fitness.
(47:45):
Uh, I'm glad, I'm glad, uh, youknow, we're a couple thousand
miles apart from each other orelse you would have kicked my
ass because I'm a scrawny littleguy.
But uh, but yeah, where, wherecan people find you?
I would say right away, uh,Facebook, Instagram, Jefferson
Keith Calloway, uh, you'll seeme come up right away.
(48:06):
I don't have any privacy stuffon there.
Um, or just shoot me an email,jefferson at.
Calcapital.
us.
That's my real estate company.
C A L C A P I T A L dot U S, notdot com.
And really just hit me upbecause what I've found is every
time I do, you know, a speakingevent or, you know, I'm talking
to somebody, um, on a podcast,YouTube, whatever, I get, you
(48:27):
know, a few messages, a few DMs.
And instead of just, you know,we're all busy.
We don't have a lot of time justto be addressing stuff.
I really, I think I'm going toprobably start like a Q& A.
And just have people come on anddo like a zoom call, maybe not
necessarily a mastermind, but,um, just get people that have
questions and want to getstarted and, you know, just
great minds getting togetherlike you and I, um, so message
(48:47):
me and I'll, and I'll, um, getyou in on it and we can all just
kind of Q and a, get bettertogether and talk about some
stuff.
Um, so Instagram, Facebook,email, those are the best ways
to get ahold of me to do that.
Great.
Well, thank you for that.
Well, Jefferson, actually,before we go away, I got to ask
you, I've been noticing a trendlately and that is that our last
(49:11):
Real Estate guest, I justremember, was a good friend of
mine named Andrew Freed.
You may have seen him in the BPCircles.
He also has I know Andrew.
Yeah, yeah.
He's from the New England area.
Actually, he owns a property inthe city I grew up with outside
of Rhode Island in Rhode Island.
But, uh, uh, you both got thesegreat beards and people can't,
I'm trying to, I, I realize, andyou're both really successful
(49:33):
real estate people.
So I'm starting to wonder, isthere something about the beard
and real estate now?
Cause, uh, I feel like I'mstarting to grow one out because
I need to be like you guys.
You know, maybe that'll lead tosome more success.
What's up with that?
Think about it.
Think about it, Louie.
Who?
Are the, some of the mostinfluential men in our time, Abe
(49:54):
Lincoln, Ulysses S.
Grant, Deuce, they all had greatbeards buddy, come on man.
That's right, that's right.
The power is in the beard, don'tsneak up on me in my sleeping
cut line, take all my poweraway.
Yeah man, I, shoot, it took metoo long to figure it out,
that's the secret, that's gottabe the secret.
That's it man, that's it.
No, whenever I, whenever I see abig beard, I'm like, all right,
I know for a fact, if you've gotnothing else, that man's got
(50:16):
patience, because this stufftakes years.
Yeah, and I, you know, it'sfunny, I had never had a beard
till I, I, I tried not to cut itfor November, that no shave
November thing.
And I didn't know you weren'tsupposed to like cut under the
neck.
Yeah.
And so, and it was so hard.
I'm like, that's why I usuallyget itchy.
And then I learned that.
I'm like, oh, this ain't thatbad.
So let's see how far I can go.
(50:37):
You know, we'll see.
It'll be interesting.
Um, anyways, Jefferson, uh,we'll have to have you back on
to talk about beards.
What's that?
What's that?
I said, keep it up, man.
Get through the itchy stage.
It looks good on you.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah.
So we're going to, we're goingto see, we're going to have to
have another episode with you,Jefferson, just to talk about
(50:57):
beards, you know, so, uh, nowthat that seems to be a growing
interest.
I love it, man.
Well, thank you for being on theshow.
You shared a lot of wisdom, alot of people who are curious
about real estate investing andwant to get in and don't think
they can do it.
Uh, I think you shared a lot ofgreat ways to do it.
Hopefully they reach out to youas well.
And just don't be afraid and getout there and do it.
(51:17):
I mean, you see we got somebodyhere who's a living testament
that you can do it and you cando it quickly.
So, um, thanks for coming on theshow.
We hope you've enjoyed TheWayfinder Show.
If you got value from thisepisode, please take a few
seconds to leave us a 5 starrating and review.
(51:37):
This will allow us to help morepeople find their way to live
more authentic and excitinglives.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
That's why these house hackingis so appealing.
Like I said, I mean, if you usea house hack right now, somebody
watching your show to go buy aproperty zero out of pocket and
live in it and house hack it.
If you make even one dime,that's a million percent return
right there because you didn'tpay anything for it.
(00:25):
Welcome to The Wayfinder Showwith Luis Hernandez, where
guests discuss the why and howof making changes that lead them
down a more authentic path orallow them to level up in some
area of their life.
Our goal is to dig deep andprovide not only knowledge, but
actionable advice to help youget from where you are to where
you want to be.
(00:47):
Come join us and find the way toyour dream life.
Welcome back to the Wayfindershow.
I'm your host, Louie Hernandez.
And today is going to be a blackand white show because, as you
(01:08):
can see behind me, I have thewhite background and my guest,
Jefferson Calloway, has theblack background.
So that's quite the contrasthere.
That's pretty cool.
Uh, anyways, Jefferson is, uh,he's kind of a badass and you
know we like to have, uh,badasses on the show.
He is a real estate investor, abusinessman, a family man, a
veteran.
So thank you for your service,Jefferson.
(01:30):
Um, he has built A portfolio of27 doors across seven states in
three years.
Well, that was as of the timethat we, uh, we agreed.
So he, you know, to have him onthe show.
So he might even have more thanthat now, which we'll soon find
out about.
But Jefferson, uh, welcome tothe way finder show.
Thank you very much.
We, I really appreciate it.
(01:51):
And, uh, thanks for the support.
We really appreciate it astroops.
Yeah.
Which, uh, which branch were youin?
Army.
Oh, excellent.
Excellent.
Thank you very much.
So, um, so tell us about your,you know, let's let the
listeners learn a little bitmore about you.
What, what, uh, tell us yourjourney, your origin story.
Yeah, for sure.
So, um, I grew up on the Easternshore of Maryland and, and just
(02:16):
kind of have a very eclecticbackground, but, you know, got
into strength sports.
That's why a lot of people, ifthey ever end up on my
Instagram, you'll see a lot of,you know, health, fitness,
powerlifting, strength stuff.
Um, went to college forphilosophy and religion.
And it's not really until mylate twenties that I really
found my niche, which wasbusiness and real estate.
And so when I went into thearmy, um, let's see, I was 27
(02:40):
came out and was 31.
And that's when I first got intoreal estate.
And so I bought my firstproperty down in Fort Rucker,
Alabama, when I was a officer,um, going through officer school
and helipilot school.
In the army and a ball.
My first rental there, um,started a lot with how
attacking, you know, even when Icame back up to Maryland, my
second was a multifamily househack.
(03:02):
Um, VA loan is a very powerfultool for house hacking, um, and
getting, you know, the ballrolling on a real estate
portfolio, building wealth ingeneral.
So then when I came back toMaryland and bounced around a
little bit, um, you know, on theEast coast, so now I'm in middle
Delaware, work up inPhiladelphia, um, bought into a
home remodeling company therethat is just really, really
(03:24):
blown up and taken off.
We've doubled in business sinceI bought into it.
And, you know, Philadelphia is agreat place for it.
800, 000 homes and they're all ahundred years old.
So we have a ton of demand.
So I just make money there.
It put it back into real estateand that's how we started
building the portfolio.
So that kind of brings us up totoday.
Like you said, 27 doors.
(03:44):
We're remote investors.
So that's, um, all over sevenstates.
We're about to go into statenumber eight and we're about to,
we're under contract for threemore units over in, uh,
Abbottstown, Pennsylvania.
Oh, so that should, yeah,that'll probably close.
Uh, I would say within the next30, 60 days.
Yeah, seven states.
Where are they?
Because in the East Coast, youknow, where you are, that could
(04:06):
be all your neighbors, right?
So that, you know.
And it is.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Like, when I was down inAlabama, that was state number
one.
Um, and that's the only southernstate we're in now.
Um, when I came back up, yeah,it was a lot in the area.
So, there's quite a few multifamilies, a sixplex, et cetera,
in Maryland.
Delaware, a couple multifamilies, including where I live
(04:27):
now.
An Airbnb, a big, beautifulAirbnb that we really love in
Virginia, the lazy bear lodge,you can look that one up and
then Pennsylvania, Jersey.
And now more recently as of lastyear, um, we got really heavy
into creative finance, likeseller finance and subject to
purchasing property, uh,properties.
And a lot of those are in Ohio.
(04:47):
There's a lot of greatopportunities there because it's
still one of the remainingStates where the purchase.
Price to rent ratio still makessense.
So that was our seventh date.
Um, and then now we're going outinto Western PA.
Excellent.
Okay.
So let's, um, so a lot of ourlisteners probably don't know a
term that you used here calledhouse hacking.
(05:10):
Can you describe what that is?
Yeah, absolutely.
It's in my opinion, the best wayto get started in investing in
real estate, which is one of thebest stores of value and
builders of wealth you can everget into.
And it's basically just rentingout or making money.
With a property that you areliving in, and that can be
anything that traditionallypeople think by a duplex,
(05:32):
triplex, quadplex, that is thelimit per government backed
loans, which are the ones thatare low money out of pocket,
like V.
A.
F.
U.
S.
D.
A.
F.
H.
A.
Etcetera.
Conventional 5%.
So you can buy anything fourunits or under live in one unit,
rent out the rest.
And that's probably the one thatmost people have seen on
Instagram reels and their localgurus, et cetera.
(05:53):
But it doesn't have tonecessarily stop there.
Like I have a property right nowthat we're living in.
That's a couple of acres,beautiful property out in the
country in Delaware.
It's got a barn with a horsestall.
We You can sometimes rent outthat horse stall, um, I've heard
of people letting people rentout campers on their property,
um, there's just all types ofthings.
Rent out by the room.
I've done that many times.
(06:13):
If you can rent out other rooms,it doesn't have to be a
multifamily property.
So there are ways to house hack,even if it's not multifamily,
that is just the most commonway.
That's the people most peopleare familiar with.
Yeah.
I actually, uh, I highlyrecommend house hacking, which
is a newer term, right?
Probably only in like the last,I don't know, maybe five years.
I've heard it thrown around, butit's a strategy that's been
(06:35):
around for a long time, but wereally try to teach a lot of
first time home buyers who havea hard time, you know, affording
a mortgage now to use thatstrategy.
Uh, especially if you're young,I mean, I, you know, we're
trying to get my daughter, I hadan agent who fresh out of
college, bought a duplex, livedin one bedroom, rented the other
bedroom, Airbnb.
be right in the other side ofthe unit, Airbnb, she cashflow
(06:57):
positive in the city of Denver,which nobody does.
Right.
And, uh, by quite a few thousanddollars a month, uh, by doing
that, I mean, it's an amazingstrategy that it can be really,
really powerful.
And for you as a veteran, it'sprobably even more powerful,
right?
Because you, like you said, youused a VA loan.
So can you explain why you usethat and why that is such a
(07:18):
great strategy?
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's why house packing isso great because it's a twofold
benefit for starters.
Most people are, you know, Maybeintimidated by investing in real
estate because they think it'sexpensive and it is if you do it
a certain way, you know Even theaverage Investor who's maybe
savvy is gonna pay most of thetime 15 to 20 percent best case
(07:38):
scenario down for rentalproperty Even in a cheap market,
one to 200, 000, that's 000before we even get to closing
costs.
So the best benefit, in myopinion, the number one is the
fact that you can come with notas much money out of pocket and
you hit on something reallygreat, a young homeowner.
The average 401k retirement ageis 187, 000 in America.
(08:00):
The average home equity averageretirement age in America.
It's 360, 000, which meansinadvertently most of the time,
probably the best store of valuein the whole world is your
primary residence.
And that's something that youhave to have, even if, whether
you're an investor or not, it'ssomething you were going to have
anyway, a primary residence, aplace to live.
And that's number two, yourbiggest expense in America is
(08:22):
going to be most of the timeyour housing expense for most
Americans, 30 percent or more ofyour income.
So even if you don't have a homerun house pack, that's going to
make you money saving.
50 percent or more on your mostexpensive out of pocket expense
each month is a huge hack.
So I love the name househacking.
You get into real estate, youget into investing, you get into
wealth creation early, cheap,and even if you're not cash
(08:45):
flowing, it's still going totake a huge chunk out of your
biggest expense.
It's a real life hack.
Yeah, that's right.
And again, if you're young,usually you, you got roommates
already anyways, right?
So why not have them pay yourent, right?
Have them pay for your mortgagewhile you're there.
Um, again, another friend ofmine, he actually, he's in a
mastermind, young guy, reallysmart.
(09:05):
He was making a great, he hadhis first job out of college.
He was already making about 80grand a year and he bought
himself a house.
Uh, it had like four bedrooms,but he chopped it up like Turned
the living room, dining room,everything into more bedrooms,
the basement he finished it, putmore in there.
And he was still, that way hewas making like a couple
thousand dollars a month.
He ended up quitting his job atlike a couple years out of
(09:26):
college and he just loves life,you know, which is wild.
But again, I want to go back toanother and even, there's many
ways to do this.
The point is, there's many waysto do this.
Anywhere in the country, thestrategy might vary, right, by,
based on the housing stock orwhatever.
But, uh, there are many ways todo it.
(09:47):
You described a stable.
I never heard of that one.
That's a great one.
Right?
If you're out in a rural area,you say, you know, you got all
this land and a stable.
Hey, let people park their RVsthere and, and rent out the
stable for extra rent.
That's amazing.
But again, you had an evenbigger advantage, which was
you're a veteran.
And you got to use the VA loan.
(10:07):
Why is that such a greatadvantage?
So it's a great advantagebecause it not only has the
benefit of 0 percent down, somost of the other ones, you'll
get 5 percent down, 3.
5 percent down.
Those LTVs are amazing.
You can get into very Very bigdeals for very little out of
pocket using those, but VA iszero.
(10:29):
Also the private mortgageinsurance that comes along with
putting less than, uh, you know,getting into a less than 80
percent LTV loan, you know,that's a few hundred dollars a
month that it can eat up a lotof cashflow.
And if you structure the VAloan.
Um, you most of the time don'tpay PMI either.
So one of my first deals was aduplex in New Jersey and same
(10:51):
thing, I came to that closingtable with maybe 13 cents or
something silly because the VAloan is nothing out of pocket.
And the best part, I guess thesecond best part is the fact
that you can use it more thanonce.
A lot of people don't know that.
If you are a veteran, ifsomebody in your family is a
veteran, you can use it once.
You have to live in theproperty.
It's very important that, youknow, everybody understands you
(11:11):
by law have to live in theproperty.
You can't, if you use it for aninvestment, you are a criminal.
You have to live in theproperty.
And as soon as you live therefor a year and fulfill that
requirement, you can go out andleave, still keep that VA loan
and rent it out legally, andthen go buy another one with the
VA loan again.
So you have your, your totalamount that you can use.
(11:32):
I believe they call it anentitlement that allows you to
buy up to a certain amount ofreal estate, regardless of how
many properties that is.
So it's just a mentally powerfulmentally.
Yeah.
I mean, what an advantage in it.
And I'm so happy that ourcountry does this, uh, offers
this.
And I, I wish.
You know, uh, more of ourveterans did this because you
(11:54):
deserve to be rewarded and get,you know, own a piece of the
American dream after serving ourcountry.
Right.
Uh, but yeah, you, not only areyou able to get in with zero
down, like you said, possibly noPMI, um, but also your rates are
typically lower.
Um, Then the normal market rateright now, we're, we're hovering
around 7%, you know, give ortake depending where you are,
(12:16):
but you know, your, your, yourFHA and VA loans are, uh, about
a half a point less than that.
And then you can, so, so this issignificant.
Savings, which is great.
And yeah, like you said, I meanyou live there a year and a day
And uh, and then you can do itagain and just keep stockpiling
your portfolio And that's why Iadvise people when they're young
because um, you know Once youstart having a family those
(12:38):
moving around becomes reallyinconvenient It's not as fun,
you know, you're significantother with your kids.
It's a big pain in the butt.
You want to get settled and allthat.
So I recommend, you know, getout and do it as often as you
can.
I would be buying a house everyyear in a day.
You know, if I, if I could, it'sjust a great way to get the
portfolio.
(12:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
And what I like about it is thefact that, like you said, you
lock in all the rate to beginwith, but the average American
moves every eight years and mostpeople sell, buy another one,
sell, buy another one.
Well, most of, because the banksknow that, anybody who's seen
the amortization tables hereknows all that interest is front
loaded.
So if you start, like you said,young.
(13:21):
Buy a property, keep it, rent itout when you buy your new one
and just hang on to that old oneas long as you can.
Eventually that amortizationtable flips and you start paying
off equity, start paying offprincipal and less interest
every month.
And that is when the real wealthcreation comes because you get a
couple of properties increasingin value, loan pay down, gets
(13:42):
more and more every year.
It's a crazy, crazy hack.
When you start combining theseprinciples, they have synergy.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
You know, and along those lines,we're in danger of geeking out
on real estate today.
So apologies to our real estatelisteners, I mean, non real
estate listeners, but you know,um, we've, we've all, we all now
(14:03):
all in this country understandinflation, right?
Cause we just went through crazyinflationary times, right?
And we all get it just by if webuy eggs, right?
But housing inflation is.
Always been this way.
I mean, 5 percent inflation onhousing in most markets in the
U.
S.
is kind of a standard.
I think the average for like thelast 20 years was about 5
(14:24):
percent in this country.
So, and that usually willoutpace Inflation, right?
We're, we're fighting hard toget back down to a 2 percent
inflation.
So if you really think about it,you buy a house, you lock it in
and yeah, that value is going upevery year at 5 percent in, you
know, so it's just like you are,you are getting, you're living
(14:44):
in a place.
Hold on.
You hold on to it, and it ismaking you more money, more
wealthy, um, you know, thelonger you hold on to it, right?
So, and if you've gotten used toYeah, completely agree.
Yeah, if you got used to gettingin by renting it out, uh,
initially as you were househacking, you lived in there,
rented to roommates or the otherunits to other tenants or
(15:05):
whatever, then just keep doingit.
Hold on.
Hold on for a long time.
And you can, you can, uh, reallybuild a lot of wealth that way,
right?
Completely agree.
So well said.
And really, I think a lot of itis about flipping your mindset.
Most people who work a W 2 jobhate Mondays.
Well, as soon as you become anentrepreneur, Mondays can be
your favorite day of the week.
(15:25):
Well, in real estate, you know,most Americans, we all hate
inflation because it means ourgrocery bill goes up, this and
that.
Well, what if you're in real?
Estate and inflation means thatyour portfolio grows in value by
10 percent every year.
You're going to love inflationin that case.
And nobody loves inflationbecause it's not good for your
country.
So if you're patriotic, that'snot right.
But in general, you can at leastnot be afraid of it anymore.
(15:46):
So be be part of the rich orwhoever or the wealthy who
invites or is not afraid ofinflation because it benefits
you build an asset portfolio.
Yeah, totally.
So, you know, you, you got 27doors in seven states.
I'm assuming, you know, youhaven't lived, you haven't been
building this portfolio for 27years in 27 days, that would be
(16:09):
right across the seven states.
So that's not the only strategyyou've used, right?
I know you mentioned a fewothers at the beginning, some
seller financing, some sub two,what are, what are some of those
strategies you're using toacquire these properties?
Yeah.
So if you're looking for asingle family and if you're
looking in the right markets, mymarket was Alabama where I was
stationed.
(16:29):
The property there actually isreally cheap and the price to
rent ratio is good.
One of the first properties Iever bought was for 70, 000.
It was a little townhouse,single family, two or three
bedroom, I forget which.
And that thing now rents forlike 1, 200 and the mortgage is
still 450.
So as long as you're in theright area, um, your single
families can still do reallywell.
(16:51):
And the way you purchase thosecan be as low as, um, 15 percent
down without living in it.
This is not an owner occupiedloan, but most lenders, and I
even know a couple of creditunions that'll go down to five
on single families investmentproperties.
So you can still go to theconventional, the traditional,
um, bank route and do well andhave low out of pockets expense
(17:12):
and, you know, have goodvelocity in building your
portfolio.
The better way to do it, in myopinion, because it allows you
to do it in any state, anywhereyou want, anytime is creative
finance.
You know, I, I believe I.
Pace Morby is going to be madefamous for coining the term, but
subject to and seller financeare incredibly, incredibly
powerful tools for buyinganywhere with low money out of
(17:34):
pocket.
So for example, last year, mostof what we bought in Ohio was
either subject to seller financeor some combination of the two,
for those that don't know, youjust subject to is just taking
over an existing mortgage andmaking payments on a mortgage
that is in somebody else's nameand already in place.
You don't go out and get yourown loan.
And then seller finances, justas it sounds, you know.
No, basically the seller isfinancing you.
(17:56):
They're saying, I'll give youthe house.
You just make a monthly paymentto me.
Usually involves a down payment,but it's usually way less than
what you would pay a bank.
So they're just incrediblypowerful tools to get into these
properties, these rentalproperties.
There's no occupancyrequirement.
It's low money out of pocket.
And also you're usually you orthe wholesaler.
I bought a lot of propertiesfrom wholesalers are the ones
negotiating the deal.
(18:16):
So if you're a good negotiator,you're going to get great terms,
which means you're going to havelow out of.
Pocket expense each month, yourloan payments going to be low
each month with future cashflows higher.
So you can get better deals,faster deals, keep going faster
because you keep more money inyour pocket as an investor.
Um, it's really, reallypowerful.
Those would be the three ways Iwould do it other than house
hacking to move fast and realestate and investing.
(18:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's really good.
Let's dissect those one by one.
Uh, so, so seller financing, bythe way, no, with no disrespect
to pace Morby, these terms havebeen around for ages.
Every time there's a turn in themarket I did in 2008 crash, I
was doing a lot of subject toand all kinds of stuff.
People haven't even might'veforgotten the term short sales
(18:59):
now cause we don't see themanymore, but they're going to
come back and all these are justgo in cycles.
Right?
So, so, but like sellerfinancing subject to let's take
seller financing Is essentiallyan owner who has equity in the
property and they are financingtheir equity to you.
Right.
It could be all of it.
Um, it's part of it.
What have you, right.
(19:23):
And really one of the best.
Go ahead.
No, you please.
I was just going to say, one ofthe ways he describes it, which
I really think is genius, isthat one is pain and one is
gain.
For a property owner, usuallysomebody maybe older that's a
tired landlord, et cetera, theirhouse is paid off.
(19:45):
And if, let's say, they're goingto sell the house, what do they
plan on doing with that money?
You know, most of the time theyhave a little bit of money,
they've already got a retirementplan, most of them are already
retired.
But he retired, so they're morethan willing to just leave the
money, you know, in the propertyand just take a monthly payment
from you.
And they usually get some sortof interest, some sort of, some
(20:06):
sort of down payment, but theydon't owe any note to the bank.
So they can just basically say,you take this property, give me
50, 000 right now.
And then instead of the bankgetting 7 percent on you buying
my property, I'll take the 7%.
They become the bank and anybodywho has really seen what
interest adds up to over 30years on a 30 year fixed
mortgage.
Basically, every time somebodybuys the house, they're buying
(20:27):
that bank a house too.
So seller finance is powerfulfor both parties.
It's powerful for the buyer andfor the seller.
A lot of people make theirliving for teller financing
properties to people.
I know a lot of people that'll.
Seller finance the house thebuyer forecloses or sorry the
buyer defaults and they take thehouse back and sell to somebody
else I know guys have sold thesame house five times.
Yeah, so it's very powerful forboth parties and it's also kind
(20:50):
of misunderstood I think forthat reason it's not you're not
getting over on the seller.
The seller is is winning too.
It's a win win That's right.
Yeah, so, so for people whowonder why would a seller do
that, you're right, those aresome of the reasons.
Other ones are also veryadvantageous tax wise, I mean,
uh, you know, when a sellersells a home, oftentimes they
have to pay a big capital gainsamount from all that gain that's
(21:11):
happened in the appreciation.
So they'd rather say, oh no,we'll just lend it, you know,
you know, you the money on itand they're not paying as much,
right?
Um, that's something to consultwith a CPA on.
So yeah, if you don't need a bigchunk of change to a seller,
that's more advantageous.
They'd rather have the cashflow.
Right.
And, uh, and I've also seen, um,where they provide almost, you
know, they, they might, youknow, it doesn't, they don't
(21:34):
have to own the whole houseoutright.
They can sell it with, you know,the existing one in place, like
you described subject to, andthen the gap between that and
the equity is another amount.
You know, um, or, or just, uh,you know, suitable mortgages, I
think pretty much more commonnow, much easier to do, I think,
than they were, you know, 15years ago.
(21:54):
Um, but you can assume an oldmortgage and, uh, because
there's more of those available.
And then, uh, And then useseller financing for that gap if
you don't have it if there'senough equity there as well Uh,
so there's a lot of ways tostructure that.
Yeah, what about that one?
I was telling you about theThat's uh coming up in
(22:16):
abbottstown is a hybrid dealwith exactly what you're
describing a lot of people don'tknow you can assume All types of
government loans in some ofthese conforming loan documents,
they teach you how to eitherassume or take the mortgage over
subject to.
So I'm assuming half of thispurchase price, assuming loan
meets is qualifying for it foryour viewers, and then they're
still financing the other half.
So it's like a hybrid deal.
(22:36):
So you can combine thesemethods.
It's really great.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
I've even seen some, Jefferson,where, uh, actually there's a
gentleman I know that has a dealout in Lawrenceville, Kentucky,
I believe it is, that he's beentrying to get me to buy it from,
it's an old gas station with abunch of land that you can
develop, and, and he's offeringit for, I forget the amount for
the land and the property and,and all that, but, um, He's also
(22:59):
willing to roll in extra cash.
Um, and he'll own it and he'llfinance the whole thing, like
the land, the property and cash.
So then you have cash.
You're walking out with cash togo and develop the property.
Right.
Which is neat.
And you see that more times thannot.
So there's all kinds of creativestructures.
(23:20):
Right.
So this is cool.
How about subject?
This is You mentioned, you know,Sub 2, some people call it, um,
This is, uh, making a big timecomeback.
You mentioned Pace Morby.
He's a big influencer in thespace.
He's really, uh, uh, you know, Iknow he puts on boot camps and
everything, and he's really, uh,become a popular figure with
(23:40):
this, and a lot of people areusing it and becoming aware of
it.
How would you describe that?
Yeah, um, definitely just takingover an existing mortgage,
assuming qualifying for it,subject to is basically just
leaving the existing loan inplace and not qualifying for it.
So, it's a little bit riskier inmy opinion, but it's even more
(24:03):
powerful because the You don'thave to negotiate for an
interest rate, the interest rateis already in place.
And there's now, because of whatwe went through during COVID, a
whole treasure trove of lowinterest rate mortgages out
there that you can go and takeover subject to.
So one of the challenges yet isthat technically the bank is
probably not going to want tohear about it because you're
(24:24):
changing title without payingoff the loan and they don't
necessarily like that.
that.
But it's also not illegal.
There's nothing, you know,inherently wrong about it.
Um, the reason why they probablydon't like it is just because
somebody's responsible for aloan.
Now that is, uh, not one thatqualified for it.
However, if you think about it,they really shouldn't have too
much of a problem with it.
Because if somebody most of thetime, that's why Always refers
(24:48):
to it as a pain type situation.
A lot of the reason the subjecttwo has come up is because
somebody might have gotten intotrouble that you can save a, a
lot of the subject two I boughtis saving somebody from
foreclosure.
They were going to foreclose andhave that on their record for
however long, seven years, andyou just come along and take
over the mortgage so that, um,they don't have that happen.
(25:14):
And then you just start makingthe payments.
You log into the portal.
Um, make the payment for them.
And then a lot of the times theunsung hero of it is you get to
work your way into a loan that'salready two, four, six, 10 years
into its amortization schedule.
So like we talked about earlier,all these mortgages are front
loaded with interest.
Well, subject to you might'vealready gotten through 10 years
(25:36):
and you might be paying now moreprincipal than you are interest.
It's incredible.
Yeah.
So a few things I want tohighlight there, if you don't
mind.
So my understanding when I wasdoing subject to back in the day
was basically you're takingtitle to the property subject to
the existing mortgage and that'swhere the term came from.
Right.
(25:56):
So, um, but, and like you said,it is usually a distress
situation.
So, um, You know, I, I, I, Ilike to make people aware, you
know, uh, you know, use your ownethics here on it all.
But, you know, you wanna be fairto, I think to the owner,
they're in a hardship situation,could have been, you know, a
(26:16):
death, divorce, uh, you know,they just lost their job,
bankruptcy, all kinds of issuesthat could happen, right?
And, and oftentimes they justneed to get out of this.
Uh, and it is a relief to them.
However, they often cannotreally rebuild because they do
have this existing mortgage intheir name out there.
So it's just, it is somethingyou want to, they can't usually
(26:38):
go out and buy another housebecause they're not going to get
a mortgage if, you know, um, ifthey have this other one in
place.
Or, or, I mean, there are ways,I guess, if you have the income
or all that, but just, uh, you,you want to be really fair.
You want to be really, you, youknow, the, the risk is really in
the homeowners, um, I think it'sa greater risk to them than to
(26:58):
you, and oftentimes, so youreally, really want to make sure
you operate with high ethics,high morals, and be really fair
to the owner on those kind ofsituations, but otherwise, yeah,
it's a great way to helpsomebody out and yourself,
right?
Yeah, I completely agree.
I mean, you already know, as asoldier, integrity always comes
(27:19):
first.
Um, and the way I always dealwith it, because it can be a
gray area, is I always just ask,what is the alternative?
What will happen if you don't doit?
And for most people, foreclosureis the worst thing that can
happen.
So, some may view it as takingadvantage of somebody that's in
a distressed situation, andthat's fine.
You know, if somebody wants totake that ideology to the grave,
that's fine.
But ultimately, both people win,because honestly, once you take
(27:41):
over the mortgage, and aninvestor is Statistically
speaking, more likely to be in agood place to be able to keep
that mortgage paid up.
That actually builds theircredit.
A lot of people don't thinkabout that part.
You know, we, we have a vestedinterest as investors to keep
that loan paid up, um, keepbuilding credit.
And then you can also show a newlender, if they want to go buy
another house, as I'm sureyou're aware, Louie, you can,
(28:04):
for one, prove that somebodyelse is paying that mortgage and
you are not.
And there's a bunch of differentways to do that.
Um, loan servicing companies cando stuff like that.
They can write letters and say,after a year, especially, um,
this guy whose name is on thisloan, he is not paying any of it
and that gives all his DTI powerback to him.
And they can go and qualify fora loan.
(28:24):
I've seen it happen.
No, yeah, you're, you're exactlyright.
As long as you, as long as yougo about it the correct way,
it's, it's an absolutely magicalthing.
So both parties, it really is.
Yeah.
It's a, it's a great one.
And like you said, uh, you know,pre COVID our rates were, you
know, two and a half to 4%.
So, uh, those are great rates tothat make a lot of numbers work
(28:46):
as an investor now.
And, and it could, you know, uh,allow somebody to get out of
their house when otherwise theycouldn't.
Right.
So, yeah.
Excellent.
What, um, what, so, so is mostof the property that you're
taking just, uh, you're, you're,you're looking for, what is it,
what is your exact strategy?
(29:07):
I mean, you look for any type ofproperty that will cashflow or
you mentioned, uh, the cost torent, uh, ratios, the price to
rent ratios.
Like what, what is that for you?
Yeah.
So, I mean, the easiest rule ofthumb I, I have gone with over
the years is just the 1 percentrule.
(29:27):
You know, as long as thepurchase price is sorry, as long
as it will rent for long termrent here, 1 percent of what the
purchase price is, then you'vegenerally got to deal a little
cashflow and everybody has theirown personal threshold.
But for me as an investor, it'susually one to 200 of free
cashflow.
I'm talking net cashflow afterall expenses paid.
(29:48):
Uh, per door.
So if it's a quadplex, I need tohave mortgage, maintenance,
utilities, snow removal, everyother expense you can possibly
think of capex.
All has to be paid as long asthere's one to 200 left per door
at the very end.
So for a quadplex or 800, thenthat's a good deal.
The second part that makes agood deal is if it's low money
(30:10):
out of pocket, you know, if Imake 10 grand a year on it.
You know, net income on aproperty that I put a hundred
grand out of pocket into 10%.
I'll just go do the stock marketfor that.
So it has to be low money out ofpocket.
That's why these house hackingis so appealing.
Like I said, I mean, if you usea house hack right now, somebody
(30:30):
watching your show to go buy aproperty zero out of pocket and
live in it and house hack it.
If you make even one dime,that's a million percent return
right there because you didn'tpay anything for it.
So the, really the strategy isdoes it cashflow, which for me,
I always use.
30 percent of gross monthlyrent, total gross monthly rent
minus 30%.
That'll pretty much account forall your expenses.
(30:52):
You can have vacancies 5%, CapExis 5%, maintenance, utilities,
etc.
If all of that, your total grossmonthly rent minus 30 percent
minus your mortgage payment,PITI, principal interest tax
insurance, whatever's left afterthat, that is your true monthly
cash flow.
So as long as it cash flows, oneto 200 per door.
It's, I like to use the rule 10,000 or less per door out of
(31:15):
pocket, depending on the deal.
You know, some of this stuff canchange if it's a really high
appreciating area, an Airbnbthat changes everything, stuff
like that.
But as long as it meets thosetwo criteria, you're generally
looking at a good deal.
I would say the only caveat tothat, and this goes back to the
whole cashflow versusappreciation debate is if you're
in like a Toledo, Ohio, or, uh,you know, a Cumberland,
Maryland, a place that's really,really maybe D E class, um, in
(31:39):
real estate.
And those properties, you'll beable to find very, very cheap
stuff at incredible rent ofprice ratio.
So I would say any place wherethe median household income is
60, 000 or more would be thelast caveat because any, any
place like that, you can go andbuy a quadplex for 60 grand in
cashflow.
That's fine, but it's nevergoing to appreciate.
So those would be the main threeif I had to pick them.
(32:01):
Yeah, yeah, I would, um, youknow, I live in Denver now, but
I came from Baltimore, Maryland,where, so it's two extremely
different markets, right?
Like, Already know.
Yeah.
So, uh, I'll tell you, I mean,in Baltimore, I, I mostly
flipped and I regret it becausereally it was a great cashflow
market and I had some rentalsthere and, and it really is a
fabulous, uh, uh, you know,appreciate, uh, I mean, uh,
(32:25):
cashflow market, but theappreciation.
You know, I, I think as of 2019,my last home in, in Baltimore
had just gotten back to the pre2008 prices in 2019, you know,
so it's like, there's really noappreciation in markets like
that.
I mean, you know, now it's, it'sbeen doing well the last couple
(32:46):
of years, but you know, it's along time, but you know, here in
Denver, a lot of people just buyalmost for net.
Uh, for, for flat cash flow justbecause of the appreciation
historically is so high.
So, uh, we we've been a littlemore stagnant.
I think these, uh, last coupleyears, but you know, We're
starting to see the turn again,and then you just start to see
(33:07):
like outrageous, uh,appreciation here.
So people will just, you know,buy something just to break even
knowing that in a couple yearsThat's just gonna skyrocket,
right?
So Yeah, and it's not a badplay.
I mean honestly Uh, and I've,I've been back and forth with a
lot of Henry Washington back andforth about the debate, but
(33:29):
really what it comes down to, Ithink cashflow is really just
more for safety.
Maybe at the end of your life,after 20 years, you'll have some
good monthly cashflow that youcan retire on.
Sure.
But for the most part, cashflowis for safety.
Appreciation is for wealthbuilding and net worth growing.
It really is.
Yeah, talk a little bit moreabout that because we, before we
got on the air, we, uh, we'retalking about real estate for
(33:53):
wealth preservation versuswealth building, right?
And this is, I, I'm a, I'm alittle embarrassed to admit
this, you know, I'm, I'm aboutto turn 49 and I'm just really,
it's just a thought that hasonly consciously.
Entered my mind in the lastmaybe year or so that that just
makes a lot of it's reallyreally hard to get wealthy in
Real estate, right?
(34:13):
Even though we all think aboutreal estate that tycoons and all
that but it's actually reallydifficult Why is that?
Well, I think first and foremostpeople just underestimate the
cost I mean, 100 percentpassively, which in my opinion,
that's what I do Everything getsout of source to property
(34:33):
management.
I don't do Anything myself, butI mean, even getting deals as
cheap as I'm getting them andhe's even getting them with the
cashflow that I'm getting themfor.
It's just not, I mean, you'retalking hundreds of dollars,
maybe per door.
And I get it.
If you got 27 doors, okay.
That's, that's quite a bit, butcompared to what you could be,
(34:54):
you know, that's not enough toreplace a job.
27 doors is a lot, actually.
I mean, for the average.
So that means somebody wouldhave to take what I have double
it or triple it.
And that's just to make likeyour.
You know, maybe a 60 to 100, 000salary.
Go get a job.
You can make that a lot faster.
It's not for making money.
One of the reasons why it worksso well is because all you have
(35:16):
to do, your bare bones minimumis just to break even and your
loan pay down and yourappreciation will grow your net
worth.
That's how I hit my firstmillion in net worth was just,
just, it wasn't the cap.
It was just sitting there andletting it appreciate and loan
pay down.
You're already delegating thetask of the mortgage payment to
a tenant.
So most people like to watchtheir home value, their primary
(35:38):
home value go up on Zillow.
We all love to do that.
It's really fun to watch yourequity grow.
We'll now multiply that by awhole portfolio and every single
year, every single COVID yearwhere it shoots up the values
going up, but it's like.
Two fold because as time goeson, that loan pay down gets more
and more.
It's more and more principled,but you keep adding more and
more to the portfolio.
So one of the reasons why it'ssuch a great net wealth building
(36:00):
tool is because it hits fromthree different angles and that
is before we get to the tax,it's the best tax haven in the
whole wide world last year, Ihad a problem.
I think it was between a 60 and70, 000 tax bill federal.
And because I got real estateprofessional status, which for
people to know just means You doreal estate somewhat full time
(36:23):
because I'm a contractor.
So that's technically a realestate profession.
And what that allows you to dois bonus depreciate properties
and take these massive, massivelosses that are only on paper.
I'm not actually losing anymoney, but they're on paper
losses for every property thatyou buy.
So the bigger portfolio youbuild, the more you can write
off these huge losses againstyour active income.
(36:43):
And so you end up on 60, 70, 000getting a 000 tax return.
So If we don't even talk aboutthe tax benefits, it's just one
of the best wealth builders inthe world.
And once you get a tax bill likethat, or a tax refund like that,
stick it right back in realestate.
That's right.
Yeah, what I've learned is, um,especially now, I work with more
(37:07):
family offices and institutionsand high wealth individuals, and
they all make, you know, theirmoney in something else.
And then they all go to realestate.
I mean, just more and morepeople who are anti real estate
people.
They find out, you know, theystart to realize how much they
have to pay in taxes.
You know, they have a hard timemaking the kind of money they
got lucky with once.
(37:27):
Uh, which, you know, it isn'tall luck, it's hard work and all
that.
But luck plays a big deal inbuilding wealth.
And I think any wealthy personwill tell you that too.
But, um, so they, um, theyrealize real estate is the place
to go.
Because you're right, it helpsyou.
It's very tax advantaged.
You're taking Basically fakelosses all the time on paper
while it's going up in value andhopefully it's cash flowing as
(37:49):
well I mean, it's just nothingelse like it, you know, and now
there's all kinds of greatprograms There's things called
opportunity zones and such thatyou know, we won't get into
here, but I've got client who'vemade you know Eight figures in
another big business, andthey're afraid of paying a tax
bill, and they're putting itinto an opportunity zone
(38:10):
development and therefore nothaving to pay any of the taxes.
They're delaying that tax, andthen all the money that grows
off of that, they won't have topay any tax if they keep it in
there, which is.
Just amazing stuff.
And that, that's why real estateis powerful.
It's not to actually get richoff of it initially.
It's, it's find another way tomake, get rich and then get
(38:32):
richer and preserve that.
Uh, because we are going tocontinue to inflate, have
inflation and lose the value ofour dollar over time.
Right.
Anyhow, well, this is exciting.
Absolutely.
And I love that you said thatbecause it's like, you can't
stop inflation, but make it workfor you.
How's that?
Cause I, I can't imagine thepeople that go to their
(38:53):
accountants and I'm, my accounttells me all the time, you know,
how often he gets, what can Ibuy?
What can I expense?
What can I write off?
Everybody, the first step is tomake it.
Second step is to preserve it.
So as soon as people startmaking money, like you said,
they start panicking.
Well, how do I deal with thistax bill?
The first question left is whatcan I buy?
What can I buy?
And instead of, Hey, what if Ibuy a G wagon this year, a good
(39:13):
account will tell you, Hey, gobuy a building.
That'll be great.
Great.
Right off depreciation for you.
That's right.
Yep.
Cool.
Well, Jefferson, this has beenfun, uh, having actually geeked
out on real estate on this showin a long, long time.
So, uh, it's kind of, kind ofcool.
Um, but on that note, why don'twe hop over to our world famous
(39:33):
Wayfinder 4?
You're our first Wayfinder 4,uh, answer of 2025.
So, um Boop, boop! That's right.
So Jefferson, give us a hack.
This is something you use tokind of cheat life with every
day like a life.
(39:55):
Oh about anything.
Oh, okay.
Sure.
Yeah.
Um, I would say probably thebiggest tag you can do is just
to be bold because I heardsomebody say a funny one.
If you talk to yourself as if tosay, How funny would it be if I
did this and it actually worked,or if I did this and got away
(40:17):
with it, or if I did this andended up like getting rich
somehow.
Yeah, that's a good way to talkto yourself, because a lot of
the time it's the truth.
Fortune favors the bold, and alot of times, like I've heard,
uh, Dan Martell say a lot,you're never gonna make more
than you think you deserve tomake.
Imposter syndrome is such a realthing.
So stop limiting yourself, bebold, whatever you think this
(40:37):
crazy thing is, just go do it.
I don't care what it is.
Shoot first, ask questionslater, because you just don't
have that much time.
And one of the biggest secretsof the wealthy that I have
learned, Cody Sanchez talksabout it all the time.
A lot of heavy hitters talkabout it all the time, is
velocity, speed.
The best guys in the world thatare doing it fast, or sorry,
doing it big, are doing it fast.
(40:58):
Make decisions quick, be bold,and stop being so scared of
everything.
Stop listening to your aunt's,uncle's, grandma who, you know,
didn't do so well in real estatebecause of one bad rental one
time.
Stop it.
Just go do it.
Make it happen, make mistakes,and be bold.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Some of our listeners know I, Igot wiped out in a way and I was
(41:18):
scared and I would have, I stillcarry a lot of that trauma and
it slows me down and it holds meback.
And, uh, unfortunately, but youknow, you know what happened
after 2008 was we had thegreatest real estate boom in the
history of our country, youknow, and I didn't participate
for 10 years of that because Iwas just scared.
And I was just like, oh, realestate is it doesn't work.
(41:39):
It's you know, and I'm like wowWhat if I just would have
quickly learned and moved on andgone back at it again, you know
So I think your your advice isreally great You know, what
about a favorite this could beanything book show activity
Whatever.
(42:02):
Um, I would really have to sayand I don't know if it really
counts But it's kind of allencompassing would be Bigger
pockets.
I mean, good Lord, I owe so muchof my life to bigger pockets
because it's not just a forum.
It's a community.
And this community includes someof the most powerful, powerful
names for getting started,continuing on getting to the
(42:23):
heavy hitter status and justwealth in general and mindset,
you know, cause they're kind ofintertwined the two.
So you go on bigger pocketsright now.
And if you're looking at.
Rentals.
They have tools for that.
They have people for that.
They have forums for that.
Every single year.
I go to BP con with my wife andwe have a whole friend group
mastermind that I met there.
We have zoom calls where we geton and talk about what deals
(42:44):
we're doing.
And we collaborate with eachother every single week.
We met at BP con.
Which is the convention, thebigger pockets has every time
this big forum.
I mean, we just love being onthere.
They have every tool, a lot ofthe big names that I follow and
listen to every single day.
I mean, every, what have wetalked about today?
Cody Sanchez, pace, Morby, uh,David green's another big one.
(43:05):
I mean, all these guys that are,will really just help you in
wealth, which is a big thing,but also your mindset.
All I found out about throughBiggerPockets, the BiggerPockets
podcast, the YouTube channel,they're awesome.
That's what I would recommend.
I love BiggerPockets.
And I've been, I've beenlistening since the beginning to
their podcast.
It's one of the, you know, whenit was Jen, Brandon and Josh,
(43:27):
you know, uh, I think Josh isthe founder.
And they're based here out ofDenver.
So I'm pretty fortunate.
They put on some events everyonce in a while.
Just a great community, like yousaid.
Really?
Yeah.
So, um, what about a piece ofadvice for your younger self?
Oh, gosh.
(43:47):
I would, I would duplicate whatI said earlier.
That's the truth.
But, uh, the other thing I thinkprobably even better would have
been just get around higherperforming and higher minded
people.
I grew up in a community thatwas very small, and I know
that's a very common story inAmerica.
So many of us grew up in thesesmall towns.
And unfortunately, that comeswith overwhelmingly, um, small
(44:09):
minds and, um, you know, it'shard to bounce ideas off of
people who are thinking sosmall.
And, It's cliche, but it's thetruth.
I've seen it a thousand timesover.
Your network is your net worth.
You're the average of the fivepeople you spend the most time
with.
The biggest decision you'll evermake is your spouse.
All that stuff is so true.
Just get around heavy hitters asfast as you can.
(44:30):
Masterminds are a great way todo it.
That basically becomes your newfriend group.
If you have a mastermind, join amastermind as soon as you can
get around high performers asfast as you can and stay there.
And if that means leaving oldfriends behind.
I'm sorry, buddy.
What do you want in your life?
Wealth and high mindedness?
Or just comfort all the time?
You will have to leave somefriends behind, and that sucks.
(44:51):
But, what do you want to do withyour life?
If you want to do somethinggreat, it's gotta be done.
Because your friends,unfortunately, as much as
they're boys, you might be.
They might be holding you back.
That's not all of them.
But a lot of times that's thecase.
So I just listened to Cody citea study where they said,
statistically speaking, thosewho sat even just near didn't
even have to talk to him, justsat near high performers in a
(45:12):
call center.
They themselves performedhigher.
It's just a fact.
Yeah, you can you can feel theenergy from a real badass,
right?
Like when you're around somebodywho's just a killer you feel it,
you know, and and that rubs offthat really rubs off So you're
absolutely right.
Yeah, what about a bigopportunity or a limiting belief
(45:35):
pick one and just kind of talkabout Maybe a big opportunity
you're chasing or a limitingbelief you've had or something
like that.
Yeah, for sure.
So one of the ways I find dealsis on Facebook and that, that
might sound crazy, but if youjoin a Facebook group for, and
you know, in real estate,wholesalers is the big one.
(45:57):
They're just dying to get youdeals.
That's how they make their moneyis finding investors and selling
them deals that they have foundwith sellers.
And one of the things that goeson is, uh, They sell companies
every once in a while,especially if you get into a
group where you've got businessbrokers, uh, people are
wholesaling companies and likewe talked about real estate's a
great way to preserve yourwealth and build it.
(46:19):
I got that, but making the moneyusually happens in business, so
a big opportunity would be, um,a big business deal that, um,
we're working on it right now,but it's to purchase a big home
remodeling company.
Someone told the one I alreadyhave in Philadelphia and, um.
It would basically just be asilent investor spot for a
(46:41):
company that's already doingwhat we're doing here.
So none of the work, but all ofthe passive revenue.
Um, and that's a great way to doit.
Cause you know, these companies,you know, they'll gross anywhere
between, you know, five and 10million and the margins, you
know, they usually are takenhome 20 to 35 percent of that
after all expenses.
So I really think, um, buyingbusinesses is a big opportunity.
(47:03):
That's one of the ones I've gotcoming up.
And I would encourage everybodyto do the same thing.
If you're just working in onebusiness, that's awesome.
Take it to the moon if you can.
But as soon as you feel yourselfhitting the ceiling, buy another
one.
Yeah, that's a, that's a growingspace too, right?
Buying businesses, uh, andthere's a lot of great
opportunity and opportunitiesfor growth, uh, for creativity
(47:24):
there too, seems like.
What about, uh, Yeah, soJefferson, if people want to
know more about you, I saw your,your, uh, your, your Instagram
site, maybe you can lead peoplethere, or your other websites,
or what have you.
I noticed on Instagram you,you're also pretty diesel too,
so it looks like you, you'requite into fitness.
(47:45):
Uh, I'm glad, I'm glad, uh, youknow, we're a couple thousand
miles apart from each other orelse you would have kicked my
ass because I'm a scrawny littleguy.
But uh, but yeah, where, wherecan people find you?
I would say right away, uh,Facebook, Instagram, Jefferson
Keith Calloway, uh, you'll seeme come up right away.
(48:06):
I don't have any privacy stuffon there.
Um, or just shoot me an email,jefferson at.
Calcapital.
us.
That's my real estate company.
C A L C A P I T A L dot U S, notdot com.
And really just hit me upbecause what I've found is every
time I do, you know, a speakingevent or, you know, I'm talking
to somebody, um, on a podcast,YouTube, whatever, I get, you
(48:27):
know, a few messages, a few DMs.
And instead of just, you know,we're all busy.
We don't have a lot of time justto be addressing stuff.
I really, I think I'm going toprobably start like a Q& A.
And just have people come on anddo like a zoom call, maybe not
necessarily a mastermind, but,um, just get people that have
questions and want to getstarted and, you know, just
great minds getting togetherlike you and I, um, so message
(48:47):
me and I'll, and I'll, um, getyou in on it and we can all just
kind of Q and a, get bettertogether and talk about some
stuff.
Um, so Instagram, Facebook,email, those are the best ways
to get ahold of me to do that.
Great.
Well, thank you for that.
Well, Jefferson, actually,before we go away, I got to ask
you, I've been noticing a trendlately and that is that our last
(49:11):
Real Estate guest, I justremember, was a good friend of
mine named Andrew Freed.
You may have seen him in the BPCircles.
He also has I know Andrew.
Yeah, yeah.
He's from the New England area.
Actually, he owns a property inthe city I grew up with outside
of Rhode Island in Rhode Island.
But, uh, uh, you both got thesegreat beards and people can't,
I'm trying to, I, I realize, andyou're both really successful
(49:33):
real estate people.
So I'm starting to wonder, isthere something about the beard
and real estate now?
Cause, uh, I feel like I'mstarting to grow one out because
I need to be like you guys.
You know, maybe that'll lead tosome more success.
What's up with that?
Think about it.
Think about it, Louie.
Who?
Are the, some of the mostinfluential men in our time, Abe
(49:54):
Lincoln, Ulysses S.
Grant, Deuce, they all had greatbeards buddy, come on man.
That's right, that's right.
The power is in the beard, don'tsneak up on me in my sleeping
cut line, take all my poweraway.
Yeah man, I, shoot, it took metoo long to figure it out,
that's the secret, that's gottabe the secret.
That's it man, that's it.
No, whenever I, whenever I see abig beard, I'm like, all right,
I know for a fact, if you've gotnothing else, that man's got
(50:16):
patience, because this stufftakes years.
Yeah, and I, you know, it'sfunny, I had never had a beard
till I, I, I tried not to cut itfor November, that no shave
November thing.
And I didn't know you weren'tsupposed to like cut under the
neck.
Yeah.
And so, and it was so hard.
I'm like, that's why I usuallyget itchy.
And then I learned that.
I'm like, oh, this ain't thatbad.
So let's see how far I can go.
(50:37):
You know, we'll see.
It'll be interesting.
Um, anyways, Jefferson, uh,we'll have to have you back on
to talk about beards.
What's that?
What's that?
I said, keep it up, man.
Get through the itchy stage.
It looks good on you.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah.
So we're going to, we're goingto see, we're going to have to
have another episode with you,Jefferson, just to talk about
(50:57):
beards, you know, so, uh, nowthat that seems to be a growing
interest.
I love it, man.
Well, thank you for being on theshow.
You shared a lot of wisdom, alot of people who are curious
about real estate investing andwant to get in and don't think
they can do it.
Uh, I think you shared a lot ofgreat ways to do it.
Hopefully they reach out to youas well.
And just don't be afraid and getout there and do it.
(51:17):
I mean, you see we got somebodyhere who's a living testament
that you can do it and you cando it quickly.
So, um, thanks for coming on theshow.
We hope you've enjoyed TheWayfinder Show.
If you got value from thisepisode, please take a few
seconds to leave us a 5 starrating and review.
(51:37):
This will allow us to help morepeople find their way to live
more authentic and excitinglives.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
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