December 6, 2023 • 44 mins
An Instagram-worthy van only goes so far - you need it to be functional and reliable for an enjoyable van life. Our guest, Kristen Bor from the popular outdoor and vanlife blog Bearfoot Theory, has lived on the road for 7 years and undergone 3 different van builds. She shares the nightmare experience of her first van build and the tough lessons she learned about hiring a custom van conversion company.
Kristen walks us through the most important considerations when hiring a van conversion company. First, learn what to look out for in a builder, from asking for references to examining their work firsthand. Kristen stresses the importance of getting educated on van systems beforehand so you can assess builders’ expertise, and to make sure their construction approach matches your planned van use.
We also compare notes on the many van builds we've each experienced, uncovering some key insights on features, materials, and components that might look good but do not always hold up for real life on the road. This episode will not only equip you with the necessary insights for a successful van build but also avoid the potential pitfalls in the process.
Links mentioned in this episode:
Free Van Life Email Series
Follow Kristin:
Connect with Kristin Hanes and The Wayward Home!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you're thinking about jumping into van life, you
might be wondering about customvan builders.
A custom van builder works withyou on design and layout and
produces the van of your dreamsright.
However, sometimes this entireprocess can go horribly wrong.
It happened to outdoor and vanlife blogger Kristen Boer of
Barefoot Theory.
She's joining us on the podcasttoday to tell us about her
(00:20):
first nightmare van buildexperience and what she did
right the second time around.
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the Wayward Home podcast.
All about van life, boat lifeand nomadic living.
We'll bring you tips,interviews and stories from the
road and on the water.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Now here's your host, kristen Haynes.
Hey there, I'm Kristen Hayneswith TheWaywardHomecom, and my
partner, tom and I live half theyear in our camper van and half
on our sailboat in Mexico.
We've been living tiny since2016 and hope to inspire you to
try something different too.
So choosing a camper vanconversion company can be
challenging.
How do you know if the companyis reputable?
Will you share the same vision?
(00:54):
How quickly will your van befinished?
Today's guest is Kristen Boerfrom Barefoot Theory.
Kristen got her first custombuilt camper van in 2016 and has
since worked on a builder ontwo additional vans, so it has
some great tips and advice.
So, kristen, thanks so much forjoining.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, thanks so much Kristen for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah.
So first of all I just want togo back in time and talk about
your first van and why you tookthe leap into van life in the
beginning.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Sure, so I started I run the blog Barefoot Theory,
which I started in 2014.
I quit my job to start thisoutdoor focused travel blog and
in 2015, I found myself wantingto spend more time on the road,
but I didn't really have theability to work from my vehicle.
I was traveling in a Subaru andone of my friends had said that
(01:44):
, like oh, I just got a Sprintervan and it's really amazing,
and I started looking into himand I thought, oh, that's
exactly what I needed.
I was traveling alone at thetime and so I wanted something
that was going to help me feelsafe and I was traveling by
myself and camping and then alsogive me the ability to work
remotely.
That's kind of how I ended upwith the Sprinter van back then.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Yeah, and how did you decide on like a Sprinter van
over the other kinds of vans?
What was that choice?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I knew I wanted the four-wheel drive option, which
at the time, the Sprinter wasthe only name in the game game
in town.
So that's how I ended up withthe Sprinter.
I didn't actually really evenconsider the others, because I
knew I wanted something that wasgoing to be able to get me off
road.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, and so once you decided on the van, how did you
start that process of findingthat first builder to work on
your van?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, so gosh, at the time there weren't as many
options.
Now, I mean, there's just somany.
The internet is flooded withvan conversion companies and
social media, but at the timethere really weren't as many.
And I considered first workingwith SportsMobile, which I'm
sure many of your listeners haveheard of, and I went and
(03:05):
checked out their facility andthey make really nice vans, but
I wanted something that felt alittle bit more homey.
They had not as many options.
I think it's also changed forthem a lot now, like they have a
lot more options if you'regetting a van from SportsMobile,
but at the time it was kind oflike well, these are the colors,
these are the materials and Iwanted something that felt more
(03:27):
homey and just more like what Iwould want my house to look like
.
So I wanted a little tiny houseon wheels, and so I went back to
the drawing board and I startedsearching, mostly on social
media, and that's kind of whereI was focusing my search at the
time.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
And then so was this company.
It was based in California, isthat right?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, I found a company in Santa Barbara that
built seemingly beautiful vansbased on the photos I saw on
Instagram and reclaimed Barnwoodtile which, in hindsight, I've
now learned that those aren'tnecessarily the best materials
(04:13):
to use in a van build,especially if you want to go
off-roading, which was my goalbut they were really pretty
looking and very photogenic vans, and so I reached out to him
and that's he's who I ended uphiring to do my van build,
basically based on some photos Isaw online.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, and so I think what I read from some of your
blog posts is you worked withthem on a design that maybe
didn't turn out to be quiteright in the end, but what was
the process of working with themand how would you do that
differently, I guess, in thefuture?
How did you do it differentlywith your next van build company
?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah.
So basically everythingdifferent, because the
experience ended up being awful.
And I hear so many horrorstories from people and I just
feel for people when they gettaken advantage of or end up
working with someone who doesn'treally know what they're doing.
So I'm like, oh, I've beenthere.
It's just such an awful feelingto know that you hired the
(05:17):
wrong person when things startto go wrong.
So basically, like I went out toSanta Barbara, I met with him.
We didn't meet at his shop,which I thought was a little bit
weird.
We met at a coffee shop and I'mthinking like, well, why
wouldn't you take me to yourfacility to show me the vans
that you're working on?
But again, I was wooed by thesepretty photos and he was a
(05:41):
decent up salesman, but therewere a few red flags like oh,
not really being able toquantify like how many vans he's
worked on, and you know kind ofwhat the timeline was going to
be.
And but I just again, thereweren't tons of options at the
(06:02):
time and I think I had gotten sostuck on like the aesthetics of
the van that I wanted that Ijust sort of put blinders on and
I went forward with him.
So we signed a contract.
The contract was not verydetailed, which you know I've
since learned like that that wasnot, that was not good and
(06:23):
acceptable.
You know, it didn't really havelike a delivery day, it didn't
have like a warranty in place.
Sure, there were other thingsthat were missing from the
contract that I can't even thinkof at the time, but so
basically, like I, he got thevan and we didn't even really
(06:48):
like agree on a layoutbeforehand, which was also, you
know it's kind of weird.
I think you know when you'rehiring someone to build your van
, you decide on the layout.
You're not making thosedecisions.
But where is the battery isgoing to go, Where's the water
tank is going to go?
Like all of that should bedecided like before you start
the process and even maybe notbefore you sign the contract,
(07:09):
because you know you make someof those decisions like once you
, once you are like in thatprocess, but definitely before
the like the manual labor starts, and so we didn't really like
decide on a layout.
So you know, we're kind of he'slike kind of gathering some
materials and like we'reconstantly making changes to the
(07:29):
layout, because I honestlydidn't know what I wanted at the
time.
You know I was new to this likewhole van life thing and you
know I was changing my mind alot, which I would definitely
advise people to have, like amore solid plan of what you want
before you hire somebody tobuild your van.
But yeah, so, like I decided Iwanted a full bathroom in the
(07:51):
van.
Well, he'd never built a fullbathroom in a van before, which
I did not know.
I didn't know that until I waslike actually picking the van up
and he admitted that to me andbut liked, but I think part of
the job of a VM builder, whoseexperience should be to like
steer you in a right directionOkay, well, you know you want X,
(08:12):
Y and Z.
Well, if you want a fullbathroom, X, Y and Z, you're not
going to happen, because thisis what's going to happen this
is where you're going to have toput your water tanks, or this
is where we're going to have toput the water heater.
So there's a lot of like thatkind of thing going on.
But like him not really tellingme like, oh, okay, like you
want to shower, well, then we'regoing to have to put a water
(08:33):
tank outside and you live inUtah in the winter and a water
tank outside is going to freezeand be unusable.
Again, I blame myself partlyfor not educating myself
beforehand, and that's part ofwhy I've written so extensively
on my website about VanLipe,because I want to help people
avoid, you know, these mistakesthat I made the first time
(08:55):
around by, you know, gettingeducated, knowing exactly what
you want, and then also likemaking sure you pick someone who
knows what they're doing.
So anyways, the sort of fastforward.
There was also like lots ofmiscommunication about, like,
when the van was going to bedone.
(09:16):
You know he's telling me, oh,it's going to be done next week.
So I buy a plane ticket to godown there to pick it up and I
get there and it's like inshambles, it's not going to be
done.
For, like it ended up being sixmore weeks and like every day
it was like, oh yeah, it'll bedone tomorrow, It'll be done
tomorrow, and it just kind oflike pulling me along and you
know it's a very unprofessionaland so, and then when the van
(09:41):
was finally done, things werefalling apart.
Like literally the day I lefthis shop, Like that night, the
shower handle fell off on mydrive home, like my two hour
drive that night.
The first time I took a shower,the water leaked all over the
van because the shower panwasn't sealed, my solar panels
(10:03):
stuck working, like on my firstbig trip in the van, and so
there were just a lot of thingsthat went wrong, and then I
ended up spending so much timefixing those things and money as
well, beyond what I hadoriginally budgeted for this van
build, so it just really feltlike a disaster.
It felt like a huge mistake,and you know, ultimately, like I
(10:24):
still enjoyed my time that Idid get to have fun with that
van, but I knew that it was notthe van for me, and so once I
was able to fix everything, Idecided I need to sell this van
and start over.
I decided I wanted a completelydifferent layout no shower,
platform bed.
You know I really wanted to.
(10:47):
I learned a lot about what Iwanted with that first van, and
so I decided to go back to thedrawing board.
But you know, in that processworking with this guy, I just
learned so much about what to doand what not to do when you're
trying to figure out if you'regoing to hire, especially now
that there's like, like I said,you know hundreds of companies
(11:10):
and you know a lot of these guysare probably learning on
YouTube as they're building yourvan.
They're learning how to buildyour van based on someones
YouTube videos that they'rewatching.
So you know, I think thatthere's that's an issue when
people are charging you topdollar for your van.
So I just want to make surethat people don't like fall into
(11:31):
that trap like I did.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Oh, that's so hard to know.
Like you said, even now there'sjust like these van companies
are popping up all the time andit's like how do you know, like,
who's doing a good job, or youknow who these people are?
Like, what tips would you havefor people that are researching
and trying to figure this out?
It seems so challenging.
Yeah, well, I think you know.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
The first step, like I said, is to get educated,
because the more educated youare, the more you're going to be
able to tell whether someone isembellishing their knowledge or
not.
So if you go online, you readabout water systems, you read
about solar, you know what kindof batteries or at least like
(12:13):
how much battery power you want,you have an idea of the layout
you want, and then you go talkto them and it seems like maybe
you know, maybe more, or youknow, have some different
understanding of things thanthey do.
Then you know that's somethingto consider, because someone
you're hiring should be able tosteer you in the right direction
, versus like feeling like youhave to come in and tell them,
(12:37):
like everything, and when Ithink it just helps you kind of
weigh how much they really know.
So getting educated first, Ithink, is like the very first
tip.
Obviously, how much experiencethey have is really important.
(12:59):
You know there are new builderswho are talented.
So I don't want to say thatlike, oh, just because you've
never built a you know a youngprofessional van before, doesn't
mean that you can't.
Vous origineriez, vous êtesoukie administrator.
Have you lived or traveled in avan yourself?
Have you built your own van?
You know, I think that's how alot of people do get started.
(13:20):
But, like this guy that I hired, he had never even traveled in
a van.
Like well, like that shouldhave been a red flag, like right
off the bat, like he never evenbuilt a van for himself, so why
would I think that he wouldhave known how to build a van?
For me, his building experiencewas based on furniture, which
is very different.
Building furniture in a houseversus like in a moving vehicle
(13:42):
on wheels.
You know different materialsdifferent.
You know the way that theysecure face to the walls it all
different.
So you know someone's saying oh, I'm experienced as I build
furniture.
That is not good.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I mean, maybe they're experienced building boats or
trailers or some other vehicleor like you know moving thing on
wheels, that you know where thewalls are vibrating and that
kind of thing.
Yeah, but furniture is not notgood like furniture.
Experience doesn't cut itreally when it comes to, like
building a van, you know.
(14:22):
So you want to know how muchexperience they have and you
know, if they don't have tons ofexperience, well, like what
qualifies them?
I mean, you really need to digin and ask lots of questions and
, you know, trust your gutinstinct as well.
Like I said, there were redflags for this guy and I just
sort of said, oh well, but itlooks nice, so it must be good.
(14:46):
But you know, now, luckilythere's so many more, so more
options.
So if the person that you'reinterviewing like something's
not right, well then run awayand find somebody else, because
there's so many more peopledoing this now.
So I think that's kind of whereI would start, at least with
(15:10):
you know, trying to set somebodyout.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, very true.
It is like a long interviewprocess trying to figure out,
like hiring someone for a job.
It's like you're hiring them.
So it's good, like you said, toask them questions and I wonder
if it's often possible to seewhat they've done in the past,
because you were saying with thefirst van bill you couldn't
even see his warehouse.
Like is that something you'drecommend is like ask for a tour
of other vans or theirwarehouse?
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Definitely yeah.
So if they have vans in thebill process, I mean even better
if you can kind of see whatthey're doing with the wiring
behind the walls and like howclean does the wiring look?
How are they attaching thecabinets to the walls of the van
?
You know all that is likereally helpful to see like a van
in the process, I think.
(15:55):
Also asking for references andmaking sure that those
references are just like afamily member or a best friend
who's like obviously gonna getthem, you know, a good
recommendation.
So for my second and my thirdvan bill I worked with the
outside van.
They're based in Portland,Oregon, and I kind of went from
one extreme to the other.
(16:15):
Like this guy who I worked withwere a zero experience and
outside van is like one of thelike best companies in the van
conversion space with the mostexperience.
So when I was deciding who tohire for the second van, I knew
I wanted someone with a lot moreexperience who could stand
behind their work, and so I wentout to their facility and I saw
(16:38):
the vans and I said, oh wow,this is like such a different
experience than what I got withthe first guy, and so I think
seeing the work in person isdefinitely helpful if you can do
that.
Like, the pictures don't alwaysshow the whole picture, you know
, when you go in person you cansee kind of like how clean is
(16:59):
the cabinetry?
Like, you know, how doeseverything line up, Did the
drawers close smooth?
You know just.
And like, where are all thesystems and how like, are they
easy to operate?
You know, and a lot of timesyou can't necessarily see that
in the picture, but if you cansee it, man, in person, you're
gonna get a much better idea.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Right.
So when you first startedworking with outside van, was
that experience really differentthan the first guy?
Like that they help walk youthrough layout ideas, and was
that just a better, moreprofessional experience with
them?
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
So the way they work is basically you know, once you
decide that you're gonna hirethem, you go through this like
whole design process.
You get a dedicated designerwho's gonna work with you on
like literally every inch of thevan and you get like a 3D, sort
(17:52):
of like your computer renderingof like what the space is gonna
look like.
I even went there and like wetaped out the floor of the van
because we were doing a layoutthat was sort of new to them and
so we wanted to make sure thatit was actually gonna work, and
so they really like were able togo through that whole process
(18:12):
with me and it was just sohelpful.
And another big difference was,once we finalized the layout, I
got like an itemized invoice ofevery single line item in the
van every light switch, everyfoot of cabinetry, every battery
(18:32):
.
And with the first guy I didn'tget anything like that.
I just got like a top linenumber of like oh, this is how
much it's gonna cost.
And then actually, like he wasasking me for more money, like
oh, like you know, this actuallycosts more than we thought.
Like can you send me you knowanother tank brand or however
much it was?
And it's kind of like whoa,like that's not cool.
(18:54):
And so I really appreciatedwith Outside man how I got like
this, you know this likeitemized invoice, so I knew
exactly what every singlecomponent cost.
And that's also helpful becausewhen you are coming up with
your budget for your van, ifyou're like maybe I don't need
that on eaten or maybe I don'tneed that sidestep because I
(19:16):
wanna, you know, I need to likecut the cost of the van a little
bit here or there, and so doingit that way really allows you
to see like, okay, what are mypriorities in terms of like what
I'm spending my money on?
Speaker 1 (19:33):
That is amazing.
They gave you the line optionslike that and you can choose to
delete things.
I didn't know that that waspossible, so that seems amazing.
And did they provide like awarranty?
Like you were saying the firstguy, there was like no warranty
involved.
Is there one on the outside van?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, so with the first guy, I was up in Olympic
National Park and all of asudden I noticed like my freezer
, like my freezer had defrostedand there was water and like all
over the floor from the ice inthe freezer, and I was like
that's so weird.
And so, as it like turns out,my solar panels were not
(20:13):
charging and I also he didn'thook up my batteries to my
alternator, which I think ispretty standard practice now,
because the alternator cancharge your batteries so much
more quickly than solar and it'salso a nice backup if it's
cloudy or it's winter orwhatever.
So so, anyways, my solar panelsweren't working and my partner
(20:35):
Ryan he's type one diabetic andwe had his insulin in the fridge
like the insulin's like gettinglike nothing in my fridge is
cold.
And you know, I was like insort of a panic because it was
like the first trip we'd evertaken.
We like didn't have any serviceand he didn't give me any
manuals for the van, for likeany of the parts not that
probably would have been helpfulanyways, but so we had to drive
(20:58):
into Port Angeles or whereverwe were, and I called him and he
like literally had no idea howto help me and his only option
for helping me was for me todrive my van all the way down to
Santa Barbara and he would takea look at it.
Well, at that point I decidedthat this guy was just a crony,
(21:19):
and you know I didn't wantanything to do with him.
And it really like he wasn'treally providing any sort of
warranty or assistance and itwas clear that he didn't like if
he wired it wrong in the firstplace, why would I trust him to
fix it?
And I ended up going to like anRV shop in Port Angeles and
they said that he had used likecompletely the wrong type of
(21:40):
wire to like wire up my solarpanels, and so they got them
working again.
But I ended up having toreplace like the whole system,
which you know he did not helpme with.
And so having a warranty waslike really important for me as
I went into my second van build.
So outside of the van offered athree year or 36,000 mile
(22:04):
warranty where they just fixed.
You know, I mean I reallydidn't have anything like major
happen with my second van andI'm still under the warranty
with my third van and but yeah,they just like, they just take
care of it and that's what, like, a professional company should
do.
What you know outside of the vanor anybody else you know.
If you're spending top dollaron a van and something breaks
(22:28):
within you know a year orhowever long the warranty may
cover, like they should, theyshould take care of it.
And you know, sometimes thatmeans you know if you're in New
York and you're conversioncompanies in California like you
shouldn't be expected to driveyour van across the country
because you know something's notworking right.
(22:49):
So in that case, you know youcan ask well, what happens in
that case?
Are you going to help me find acompany nearby that can fix it
or are you going to cover thecost?
If you know I do have to go getsomebody else local to work on
this, or can they send me a partso I can fix it myself?
And you know, do like outsideof the van has like a full
(23:09):
warranty, like department thatyou know will help you.
So when things go wrong it'slike one person that you call
and they you know he helps you.
So I don't mean to keepreferring back to them because
there are other, you know bigplayers in this being conversion
.
You know space that I'm sureare comparable.
(23:31):
That's just who my experienceis with and it's like showing me
.
But hey, this is again likewhat a professional van
conversion company can andshould do and I think that
that's sort of the differencebetween.
Again, I don't want to knockthe small guys, because I you
know, or girls you know who arebuilding vans, but a bigger
(23:54):
company is just going to havemore capacity and like capital
to help you fix your van whenthings go wrong, where someone
who's new and starting out theymight not have, you know, the
excess funds to just likereplace your batteries or you
know something, in the case thatsomething breaks.
So I think that's justsomething to keep in mind.
(24:17):
You know, if you are going towork with a smaller company like
these are important questionsthat you have to ask.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Right, because you're really burned on that first guy
that you had to put so muchadditional money toward things
that were breaking.
I mean, that sounds like anightmare.
Yes, oh my gosh, Were your likecabinets, were things like
falling coming loose as youdrove down four by four roads
with that van?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Well, I didn't really get to drive off on many four
by four roads because I was soscared of things breaking.
But like, yeah, the drawerslike stopped work.
You know, like the push buttonsthat you know people used to
like keep their drawers put in.
I know they fail, it's not likeit's.
You know, even in a really wellbuilt van, sometimes those
buttons, you know things justget misaligned.
(25:02):
But I mean, none of them wereworking and like a lot of the,
because the wood he used wasn'tlike I don't think it was just
like reclaimed wood, it wasn'tlike sealed, which with like
temperature swings if you'regoing from a snow to like a hot,
you know a hot summer climatelike the wood is going to war
(25:24):
over time.
And so you know, just like,looking at the materials that
these companies use as well,like again, like, if you're like
tile has become kind of like apopular material and some of
these more like Instagram worthy, pinterest worthy vans.
But you know, if you want todrive off road and you want to
(25:47):
go up mountain passes, like dirtroad mountain passes with your
van, like those materialsprobably aren't the best choice.
And so someone who you know,when you're interviewing a
company, like they should askyou what you want to use your
van for and then be able tosteer you in the right direction
as far as like what are likethe best materials for the
purpose that you want to useyour van for.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah, that's very true.
I have seen a lot of those vansyou're talking about that look
almost like a house or anapartment on the inside with the
fancy materials and I'm likethat's just going to jostle free
, going off-roading If that's.
But maybe people don't want todo that, like, maybe people just
want to go to campgrounds andnot do off-roading.
But me and you love boondockingand getting into nature, so we
need that stuff to be sealeddown and the suspension and
(26:29):
everything.
So, yeah, it depends on whatyou're using the van for, I
guess too.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
And exactly yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, oh my gosh.
So good.
So your experience with outsidevan was so good.
You had your third van builtwith them, also to accommodate
the newest member of your family, right?
Yes, yes, I had a son backinstead of you, larry.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
And so now it's three of us plus two dogs, and my
second van only had two seatbelts, so we had to sell that
one, which I've learned withthat van so much.
But yeah, I had to sell that toaccommodate a third seat belt.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, for sure, and earlier we touched on it very
briefly that you decided tochange some of your layout after
that first van.
And you know so many people askme and probably you like why
don't you have a bathroom inyour van?
I could ask that all the timeand you had a bathroom in your
van, so you've done both.
I've never had one in my van.
So I can't I don't know whatit's like, but yeah, what was
(27:29):
what made you decide on some ofthese layout changes after that?
First van Sure.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
So the first van was like when you open the slider
door there was like aconvertible sofa against the
wall behind the driver's seat.
That was like sort of my workarea, but then it pulled out
into a bed and then behind thebed was the galley and then on
the passenger side, in the back,was the full shower, bathroom
(28:01):
and some storage space.
And what I learned when I wastraveling by myself in that van?
It was fine because I couldjust sleep on the sofa as is.
I didn't have to pull it outand make it.
But I didn't like theconvertible bed idea in general.
I found it annoying to have tolike find somewhere to store my
(28:22):
bedding every day.
If, like when Ryan, my partner,and I were traveling together,
if I wanted to get up early andwork while he was still asleep,
I couldn't do that.
I actually couldn't do anythingbecause the bed took up the
whole front half of the van, soI couldn't really even, like you
(28:44):
know, get up to like.
I mean, I functioned in thekitchen a little bit, but then I
had nowhere to sit.
I was like climbing over thebed to get from one side of the
van to the other and then, yeah,the full bathroom ended up just
being such a waste of space.
For me it was like an expensivecloset basically.
And I guess, with the shower, mythought is, you know, with this
(29:13):
, unless you have a duly and youcan carry like a lot more water
, you know most vans are onlycarrying 20, 25 gallons max, and
so the shower that you can takewith that water is very quick.
You know, kind of militarystyle, where you're like rinsing
(29:33):
yourself, turning off the water, lathering up, rinsing, turning
off the water.
You're not like standing undera nice hot shower, like really
enjoying yourself.
And the space is so small that,like you know, I'm only five
foot five, but it's not, youknow, I still felt cramped in
there and so like try to likeshave my legs or something you
(29:56):
know like bend over it in there.
Anyway, sorry to paint thatpicture, but you know it's just
a small space and I, you know, Iimagine, for you know, someone
bigger, like my partner, ryan,or like a larger man, it just
doesn't really make a lot ofsense.
And there's just so many placeson the road that you can shower.
(30:19):
You like to shower atrecreation centers.
Those are kind of my favoritebecause they tend to be really
clean and sometimes you can usea pool and hot tub and sauna or
whatever if they have that.
So you know that's one goodoption.
You know every now and thenwe'll stay at like a paid
campground that has a shower, sothat's an option like visiting
(30:42):
family and friends.
I've never showered at like atruck stop, but that's an option
.
So there's so many differentplaces that you can shower.
It just felt like such like Icould actually get an Airbnb
like many, many times throughoutthe year and it still wouldn't
be as expensive as it costs tolike build a shower in my van.
So that that was kind of that.
(31:09):
And then so I kind of went fromthe extreme of having like the
shower and I had like a cassettetoilet to having no shower and
no cassette toilet and justusing like a P jar P bottle to
go the bathroom, for number one,and then using like public
facilities for number two.
But then COVID happened and itwas like, oh, maybe it would be
(31:30):
nice to have like not be soreliant on public facilities.
So now we have a like a Wagbagtoilet, which the one we use is
made by Go anywhere.
It's like a little foldable,almost like a little foldable
briefcase and the legs like popout and then you just put a
Wagbag in and it's really simpleand easy to use and then when
(31:52):
you're not using it, it storesaway and it doesn't take up any
space, and then we still usejars for going pee.
So and that's what's worked forus.
Now that I have a baby and likeonce he becomes a party
training age, I don't reallyknow what we'll do.
You know, we're just going tohave to kind of figure it out.
I would like to test out likethere's just like more new
(32:14):
composting toilets coming on themarket, so I'd be open to doing
something like that in the dayI have now or maybe a future van
.
But yeah, that's my thought forthe toilet.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
This is totally digressing from our original
conversation, but everyonealways asked about toilets.
But I tried a composting toiletand it like really grossed me
out.
It was like it wasn't bigenough for two people to use
every day, like I think it'd befine for people to use in an
emergency or like once a week oronce a month, but we tried
using it every day for a weekand it did not work at all.
(32:47):
It was like the grossestexperience in my life and I'm
like I'm never.
I think like definitely for youknow, having a once in a while
emergency toilet in the van, youknow, like year ago, anywhere a
chair which my dad also uses.
He loves that thing.
He digs a hole in the earth andputs it over that.
But we could do a whole episodeon toilets, oh for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
But yeah, that's interesting that you didn't put
one in your other vans and likedid you put anything else in
there that used that space thatyou just found was a better,
better living area?
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Oh, definitely, yeah.
So I'm all about the platformbed.
Now I think it's not like thatto say that's like YOU're
calling for some kind of that.
I just like having storageunder the bed for all of my
outdoor gear.
We travel with backpacking gearsometimes.
Sometimes we have pack raftinggear.
We've had stand-up palliboards.
(33:41):
We swap things out based onwhere we're going, or up until
this year was the least amountof time I spent in my band.
Up until this year, we werespending anywhere from about
eight or nine months a year inour band.
Then we were coming back hometo Utah this year because of
maybe we spent a lot more timeat home and lost him on the road
(34:03):
.
But when we're going to be gonefor eight or nine months, we
have a lot of different gear wewant to bring, because we don't
know where the road is going totake us and what kind of outdoor
adventures we might be having.
We had bikes, backpacking gear,palliboards, just all kinds of
stuff.
That really a convertible bed.
You lose all of that storagespace.
(34:25):
You've gained some living spacebecause you have a nice dinette
that you can sit at and eat atand work at, but you lose all
the storage for all the gear andwhatnot.
I'm a big fan of that.
I switched from a gas stove inmy first van to induction, which
is way better.
(34:45):
Even in my second van I wasable to have the platform bed
and still accommodate a smalldinette for working.
Since I work from the road,when we're in our van I have
stuff I have to get done.
I really like that.
In my second van I had adedicated dinette working area
(35:08):
in addition to the bed.
I didn't have to set up myworkspace, take it down when I
was done.
Now in my third van, because ofthe third seatbelt chair, I
don't have a dedicated workspaceanymore, which has definitely
been a little bit harder If Icome to work outside.
(35:30):
It's hard to work with the babyanyways in the van, which we
could do a whole lot of sort ofmess, just travel.
The platform bed is probablythe biggest change.
I just like being able to ifwe're driving.
We've driven across the countryseveral times.
(35:51):
We've just stayed in rest areasbecause we're just trying to
get to New York where my partnerRyan's from Just being able to
drive until we're tired and thenget in the bed and go to bed
versus like oh, I've got to getoff the seats in the pillows and
make the bed and go throughthat whole process.
I just love being able to justhop back there and not having it
(36:13):
be a big process.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah for sure.
Yeah, I'm totally with you onthat.
We also have the platform bed,and too much outdoor gear to
even talk about is ridiculous,but these are our outdoor
haulers.
They call them gear haulers.
They help us get into nature.
That's what's important.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, everybody's done thisvan life for a different reason,
but for me, I started van lifebecause I wanted easy access to
the outdoors and to nature andto be able to camp in places
that I wouldn't have been ableto camp otherwise, and to be
able to travel long term in myvehicle without feeling like too
(36:54):
cramped, I guess.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yeah, it's a really wonderful thing to have a
sprinter you can walk around in,because we started in an Astro
and that was way smaller minivan which is a convertible bed.
But having these large vanswith a full bed is just a
wonderful experience.
I'm very thankful for it.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Yeah, me too.
It definitely feels like theluxury, I think, to be able to
travel in that way and just thefreedom that you get from
traveling in a van and theability to be spontaneous.
I just think that there's noother form of travel that
provides those benefits in thesame way.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yeah, totally.
It's your own tiny home.
If you work with a good builder, it'll be the right one.
With not-stop-breakingconstantly, that was a pretty
crazy story that you have.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Have you heard that from other people too, with bad
builders?
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, sadly I have.
I think people read, they comeacross my blog and they're like
I get a lot of emails frompeople that are like, oh my gosh
, your story is so familiar.
I wish I had read your blogbefore I hired so and so, yeah,
it's just really unfortunate.
I think the van life industryjust has exploded.
(38:11):
I think a lot of people haveseen opportunity in creating
businesses around serving thevan life community.
One type of those businesses isbeing a van builder.
Again, I think people are likeoh, I built furniture, I can
build vans.
I think so.
(38:32):
I do think it happens, and Ithink also, like, just with the
cost, I think a lot of people, alot of these new builders,
couldn't get in under their headbecause they don't realize how
much it's actually going to costto build a van, how much time
it's going to take, and so yougive in this person your money,
but then they're like run out ofmoney because they
(38:55):
underestimated how much it wasgoing to cost or the amount of
time it was going to take them,and so then you're kind of left
with a van that's not done orsomething that's just really
subplor or just a person who'sreally difficult to work with.
So I think you also need to makesure that your personalities
mesh, that you like them aspeople, because you're going to
(39:18):
be in touch with them a lotduring the process of building
your van and have to work withthem on the layout and all that.
So you just want to make surethat it's a person that you
actually like, might enjoyhanging out with, even if you
will never actually hang outwith them.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah, that's a good tip because you are working with
them for many months on yourvan and you want to like them.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Yeah, that's good to keep in mind, cool.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
So, yeah, tell people more about your blog.
I know I found you in I don'tknow if you know this, but in
2015 when I was planning my JohnMuir trail hike.
So you were like the top resortor the top results on Google,
and I read all your stuff and ithelped me plan it, so that's
how I found you.
Oh, amazing, awesome.
Yeah, a long time ago.
I've been following you andyour van build, so, yeah, your
(40:05):
blog is fantastic, so tellpeople about it, what they can
find over there.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Sure, yeah, so I.
My blog is called BarefootTheory but it's spelled bear,
like the animal, because I havea great bull dead dancing bear
tattoo on my foot, so that iswhere the name comes from, and I
write about van life.
I have like probably 70different blog posts on my site
of all aspects of you knowchoosing a van, having a van
(40:32):
built out, like all thedecisions that you have to make,
and then just tips for living,traveling, working on the road.
I also hike.
That's like my favoriteactivity when I'm on the roads.
I have tons of hiking content.
I'm trail guides, tips, gearand I'm seeing, with backpacking
and car camping and roadtripping, lots of itineraries.
(40:52):
So that's kind of what I do and, like I said, I spend normally
a lot more time in my van.
Hopefully I'll get back on theroad soon, once my baby's a
little bit older, but, yeah, sothat's what I do, and you can
find me at Bearford Theory onthe internet and on the socials
(41:13):
and on YouTube, yeah, so awesome.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Yeah, well, definitely link to all your
stuff below so people can goclick over there and find it.
And yeah, if you, I know youhave some van life specific
email list, so if you know what,we're going to add a link to
that as well, so people can comejoin your email list.
You send out good stuff.
I'm on it, so yeah thanks.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, I also mentioned I don't know what the
future holds for this that I doput on an event called the open
roads vest.
I've done it twice in McCall,idaho, and last year we had like
450 people come in, alldifferent types of vehicles,
vans and even tank camperscoming to learn about van life
with workshops.
We also have mountain bikingand paddleboarding and yoga and
(41:57):
live music and it's just amazinggathering.
I don't know what I'm going todo next summer, but just to put
it on people's radar to keep aneye out in case I decide to
announce any future dates.
You can find that atopenroadsvestcom.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Very cool.
Well, yeah, also link to thatso people can stay up to date.
But, yeah, thank you so much.
Is there anything we missed onchoosing a van bill company,
that we talked about a lot ofthings.
No, I think that's it.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
I mean the people can reach out to leave their
questions.
I mean I hesitate to like everrecommend, like specific
builders just because, like ablog will email me like, oh, do
you know it's so and so, andit's like I can't say yes or no
because I haven't traveled andlived in one of their vehicles.
So it's really hard.
I think the best thing that youcan do is find somebody who's
built you know, who owns a vanby the company that you're
(42:49):
seeing about hiring, and likereally, really talk to them.
I think also, like a lot of theyou know, there's so many like
industry events now, like theOverland Expo and the Adventure
Band Expo, like a lot of thecompanies are there.
So that's a great place to seelots of different van van builds
in one place and then you cankind of compare and contrast.
I mean I think the more builtlands you see before you go into
(43:12):
this process, you know it helps, you know what you want and it
also just like allows you tocompare and contrast like
quality from like the naked eye.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Yeah, that's good.
You mentioned that.
I also wanted to mention thattoo.
So I'm glad there's all theseevents Adventure Van and the
Overland Expo.
I don't know if there's otherones, but it's a great place to
tour vans.
I've done that myself and it'sfun.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of like and I think the
innovation is really neat.
You know, people are coming outwith like even your fellow,
like wow, like you think everylayout has been used by now, but
sometimes you see see newthings that you're like wow, I
would have never thought of that.
And so it's going to need tosee what some of these people
are coming out with.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, for sure, cool.
Well, thank you so much forjoining the podcast.
You have so much good tips andadvice, so thank you.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah, thank you so much Okay.
If you're thinking about jumping into van life, you
might be wondering about customvan builders.
A custom van builder works withyou on design and layout and
produces the van of your dreamsright.
However, sometimes this entireprocess can go horribly wrong.
It happened to outdoor and vanlife blogger Kristen Boer of
Barefoot Theory.
She's joining us on the podcasttoday to tell us about her
(00:20):
first nightmare van buildexperience and what she did
right the second time around.
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the Wayward Home podcast.
All about van life, boat lifeand nomadic living.
We'll bring you tips,interviews and stories from the
road and on the water.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Now here's your host, kristen Haynes.
Hey there, I'm Kristen Hayneswith TheWaywardHomecom, and my
partner, tom and I live half theyear in our camper van and half
on our sailboat in Mexico.
We've been living tiny since2016 and hope to inspire you to
try something different too.
So choosing a camper vanconversion company can be
challenging.
How do you know if the companyis reputable?
Will you share the same vision?
(00:54):
How quickly will your van befinished?
Today's guest is Kristen Boerfrom Barefoot Theory.
Kristen got her first custombuilt camper van in 2016 and has
since worked on a builder ontwo additional vans, so it has
some great tips and advice.
So, kristen, thanks so much forjoining.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, thanks so much Kristen for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah.
So first of all I just want togo back in time and talk about
your first van and why you tookthe leap into van life in the
beginning.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Sure, so I started I run the blog Barefoot Theory,
which I started in 2014.
I quit my job to start thisoutdoor focused travel blog and
in 2015, I found myself wantingto spend more time on the road,
but I didn't really have theability to work from my vehicle.
I was traveling in a Subaru andone of my friends had said that
(01:44):
, like oh, I just got a Sprintervan and it's really amazing,
and I started looking into himand I thought, oh, that's
exactly what I needed.
I was traveling alone at thetime and so I wanted something
that was going to help me feelsafe and I was traveling by
myself and camping and then alsogive me the ability to work
remotely.
That's kind of how I ended upwith the Sprinter van back then.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Yeah, and how did you decide on like a Sprinter van
over the other kinds of vans?
What was that choice?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I knew I wanted the four-wheel drive option, which
at the time, the Sprinter wasthe only name in the game game
in town.
So that's how I ended up withthe Sprinter.
I didn't actually really evenconsider the others, because I
knew I wanted something that wasgoing to be able to get me off
road.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, and so once you decided on the van, how did you
start that process of findingthat first builder to work on
your van?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, so gosh, at the time there weren't as many
options.
Now, I mean, there's just somany.
The internet is flooded withvan conversion companies and
social media, but at the timethere really weren't as many.
And I considered first workingwith SportsMobile, which I'm
sure many of your listeners haveheard of, and I went and
(03:05):
checked out their facility andthey make really nice vans, but
I wanted something that felt alittle bit more homey.
They had not as many options.
I think it's also changed forthem a lot now, like they have a
lot more options if you'regetting a van from SportsMobile,
but at the time it was kind oflike well, these are the colors,
these are the materials and Iwanted something that felt more
(03:27):
homey and just more like what Iwould want my house to look like
.
So I wanted a little tiny houseon wheels, and so I went back to
the drawing board and I startedsearching, mostly on social
media, and that's kind of whereI was focusing my search at the
time.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
And then so was this company.
It was based in California, isthat right?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, I found a company in Santa Barbara that
built seemingly beautiful vansbased on the photos I saw on
Instagram and reclaimed Barnwoodtile which, in hindsight, I've
now learned that those aren'tnecessarily the best materials
(04:13):
to use in a van build,especially if you want to go
off-roading, which was my goalbut they were really pretty
looking and very photogenic vans, and so I reached out to him
and that's he's who I ended uphiring to do my van build,
basically based on some photos Isaw online.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, and so I think what I read from some of your
blog posts is you worked withthem on a design that maybe
didn't turn out to be quiteright in the end, but what was
the process of working with themand how would you do that
differently, I guess, in thefuture?
How did you do it differentlywith your next van build company
?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah.
So basically everythingdifferent, because the
experience ended up being awful.
And I hear so many horrorstories from people and I just
feel for people when they gettaken advantage of or end up
working with someone who doesn'treally know what they're doing.
So I'm like, oh, I've beenthere.
It's just such an awful feelingto know that you hired the
(05:17):
wrong person when things startto go wrong.
So basically, like I went out toSanta Barbara, I met with him.
We didn't meet at his shop,which I thought was a little bit
weird.
We met at a coffee shop and I'mthinking like, well, why
wouldn't you take me to yourfacility to show me the vans
that you're working on?
But again, I was wooed by thesepretty photos and he was a
(05:41):
decent up salesman, but therewere a few red flags like oh,
not really being able toquantify like how many vans he's
worked on, and you know kind ofwhat the timeline was going to
be.
And but I just again, thereweren't tons of options at the
(06:02):
time and I think I had gotten sostuck on like the aesthetics of
the van that I wanted that Ijust sort of put blinders on and
I went forward with him.
So we signed a contract.
The contract was not verydetailed, which you know I've
since learned like that that wasnot, that was not good and
(06:23):
acceptable.
You know, it didn't really havelike a delivery day, it didn't
have like a warranty in place.
Sure, there were other thingsthat were missing from the
contract that I can't even thinkof at the time, but so
basically, like I, he got thevan and we didn't even really
(06:48):
like agree on a layoutbeforehand, which was also, you
know it's kind of weird.
I think you know when you'rehiring someone to build your van
, you decide on the layout.
You're not making thosedecisions.
But where is the battery isgoing to go, Where's the water
tank is going to go?
Like all of that should bedecided like before you start
the process and even maybe notbefore you sign the contract,
(07:09):
because you know you make someof those decisions like once you
, once you are like in thatprocess, but definitely before
the like the manual labor starts, and so we didn't really like
decide on a layout.
So you know, we're kind of he'slike kind of gathering some
materials and like we'reconstantly making changes to the
(07:29):
layout, because I honestlydidn't know what I wanted at the
time.
You know I was new to this likewhole van life thing and you
know I was changing my mind alot, which I would definitely
advise people to have, like amore solid plan of what you want
before you hire somebody tobuild your van.
But yeah, so, like I decided Iwanted a full bathroom in the
(07:51):
van.
Well, he'd never built a fullbathroom in a van before, which
I did not know.
I didn't know that until I waslike actually picking the van up
and he admitted that to me andbut liked, but I think part of
the job of a VM builder, whoseexperience should be to like
steer you in a right directionOkay, well, you know you want X,
(08:12):
Y and Z.
Well, if you want a fullbathroom, X, Y and Z, you're not
going to happen, because thisis what's going to happen this
is where you're going to have toput your water tanks, or this
is where we're going to have toput the water heater.
So there's a lot of like thatkind of thing going on.
But like him not really tellingme like, oh, okay, like you
want to shower, well, then we'regoing to have to put a water
(08:33):
tank outside and you live inUtah in the winter and a water
tank outside is going to freezeand be unusable.
Again, I blame myself partlyfor not educating myself
beforehand, and that's part ofwhy I've written so extensively
on my website about VanLipe,because I want to help people
avoid, you know, these mistakesthat I made the first time
(08:55):
around by, you know, gettingeducated, knowing exactly what
you want, and then also likemaking sure you pick someone who
knows what they're doing.
So anyways, the sort of fastforward.
There was also like lots ofmiscommunication about, like,
when the van was going to bedone.
(09:16):
You know he's telling me, oh,it's going to be done next week.
So I buy a plane ticket to godown there to pick it up and I
get there and it's like inshambles, it's not going to be
done.
For, like it ended up being sixmore weeks and like every day
it was like, oh yeah, it'll bedone tomorrow, It'll be done
tomorrow, and it just kind oflike pulling me along and you
know it's a very unprofessionaland so, and then when the van
(09:41):
was finally done, things werefalling apart.
Like literally the day I lefthis shop, Like that night, the
shower handle fell off on mydrive home, like my two hour
drive that night.
The first time I took a shower,the water leaked all over the
van because the shower panwasn't sealed, my solar panels
(10:03):
stuck working, like on my firstbig trip in the van, and so
there were just a lot of thingsthat went wrong, and then I
ended up spending so much timefixing those things and money as
well, beyond what I hadoriginally budgeted for this van
build, so it just really feltlike a disaster.
It felt like a huge mistake,and you know, ultimately, like I
(10:24):
still enjoyed my time that Idid get to have fun with that
van, but I knew that it was notthe van for me, and so once I
was able to fix everything, Idecided I need to sell this van
and start over.
I decided I wanted a completelydifferent layout no shower,
platform bed.
You know I really wanted to.
(10:47):
I learned a lot about what Iwanted with that first van, and
so I decided to go back to thedrawing board.
But you know, in that processworking with this guy, I just
learned so much about what to doand what not to do when you're
trying to figure out if you'regoing to hire, especially now
that there's like, like I said,you know hundreds of companies
(11:10):
and you know a lot of these guysare probably learning on
YouTube as they're building yourvan.
They're learning how to buildyour van based on someones
YouTube videos that they'rewatching.
So you know, I think thatthere's that's an issue when
people are charging you topdollar for your van.
So I just want to make surethat people don't like fall into
(11:31):
that trap like I did.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Oh, that's so hard to know.
Like you said, even now there'sjust like these van companies
are popping up all the time andit's like how do you know, like,
who's doing a good job, or youknow who these people are?
Like, what tips would you havefor people that are researching
and trying to figure this out?
It seems so challenging.
Yeah, well, I think you know.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
The first step, like I said, is to get educated,
because the more educated youare, the more you're going to be
able to tell whether someone isembellishing their knowledge or
not.
So if you go online, you readabout water systems, you read
about solar, you know what kindof batteries or at least like
(12:13):
how much battery power you want,you have an idea of the layout
you want, and then you go talkto them and it seems like maybe
you know, maybe more, or youknow, have some different
understanding of things thanthey do.
Then you know that's somethingto consider, because someone
you're hiring should be able tosteer you in the right direction
, versus like feeling like youhave to come in and tell them,
(12:37):
like everything, and when Ithink it just helps you kind of
weigh how much they really know.
So getting educated first, Ithink, is like the very first
tip.
Obviously, how much experiencethey have is really important.
(12:59):
You know there are new builderswho are talented.
So I don't want to say thatlike, oh, just because you've
never built a you know a youngprofessional van before, doesn't
mean that you can't.
Vous origineriez, vous êtesoukie administrator.
Have you lived or traveled in avan yourself?
Have you built your own van?
You know, I think that's how alot of people do get started.
(13:20):
But, like this guy that I hired, he had never even traveled in
a van.
Like well, like that shouldhave been a red flag, like right
off the bat, like he never evenbuilt a van for himself, so why
would I think that he wouldhave known how to build a van?
For me, his building experiencewas based on furniture, which
is very different.
Building furniture in a houseversus like in a moving vehicle
(13:42):
on wheels.
You know different materialsdifferent.
You know the way that theysecure face to the walls it all
different.
So you know someone's saying oh, I'm experienced as I build
furniture.
That is not good.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I mean, maybe they're experienced building boats or
trailers or some other vehicleor like you know moving thing on
wheels, that you know where thewalls are vibrating and that
kind of thing.
Yeah, but furniture is not notgood like furniture.
Experience doesn't cut itreally when it comes to, like
building a van, you know.
(14:22):
So you want to know how muchexperience they have and you
know, if they don't have tons ofexperience, well, like what
qualifies them?
I mean, you really need to digin and ask lots of questions and
, you know, trust your gutinstinct as well.
Like I said, there were redflags for this guy and I just
sort of said, oh well, but itlooks nice, so it must be good.
(14:46):
But you know, now, luckilythere's so many more, so more
options.
So if the person that you'reinterviewing like something's
not right, well then run awayand find somebody else, because
there's so many more peopledoing this now.
So I think that's kind of whereI would start, at least with
(15:10):
you know, trying to set somebodyout.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, very true.
It is like a long interviewprocess trying to figure out,
like hiring someone for a job.
It's like you're hiring them.
So it's good, like you said, toask them questions and I wonder
if it's often possible to seewhat they've done in the past,
because you were saying with thefirst van bill you couldn't
even see his warehouse.
Like is that something you'drecommend is like ask for a tour
of other vans or theirwarehouse?
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Definitely yeah.
So if they have vans in thebill process, I mean even better
if you can kind of see whatthey're doing with the wiring
behind the walls and like howclean does the wiring look?
How are they attaching thecabinets to the walls of the van
?
You know all that is likereally helpful to see like a van
in the process, I think.
(15:55):
Also asking for references andmaking sure that those
references are just like afamily member or a best friend
who's like obviously gonna getthem, you know, a good
recommendation.
So for my second and my thirdvan bill I worked with the
outside van.
They're based in Portland,Oregon, and I kind of went from
one extreme to the other.
(16:15):
Like this guy who I worked withwere a zero experience and
outside van is like one of thelike best companies in the van
conversion space with the mostexperience.
So when I was deciding who tohire for the second van, I knew
I wanted someone with a lot moreexperience who could stand
behind their work, and so I wentout to their facility and I saw
(16:38):
the vans and I said, oh wow,this is like such a different
experience than what I got withthe first guy, and so I think
seeing the work in person isdefinitely helpful if you can do
that.
Like, the pictures don't alwaysshow the whole picture, you know
, when you go in person you cansee kind of like how clean is
(16:59):
the cabinetry?
Like, you know, how doeseverything line up, Did the
drawers close smooth?
You know just.
And like, where are all thesystems and how like, are they
easy to operate?
You know, and a lot of timesyou can't necessarily see that
in the picture, but if you cansee it, man, in person, you're
gonna get a much better idea.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Right.
So when you first startedworking with outside van, was
that experience really differentthan the first guy?
Like that they help walk youthrough layout ideas, and was
that just a better, moreprofessional experience with
them?
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
So the way they work is basically you know, once you
decide that you're gonna hirethem, you go through this like
whole design process.
You get a dedicated designerwho's gonna work with you on
like literally every inch of thevan and you get like a 3D, sort
(17:52):
of like your computer renderingof like what the space is gonna
look like.
I even went there and like wetaped out the floor of the van
because we were doing a layoutthat was sort of new to them and
so we wanted to make sure thatit was actually gonna work, and
so they really like were able togo through that whole process
(18:12):
with me and it was just sohelpful.
And another big difference was,once we finalized the layout, I
got like an itemized invoice ofevery single line item in the
van every light switch, everyfoot of cabinetry, every battery
(18:32):
.
And with the first guy I didn'tget anything like that.
I just got like a top linenumber of like oh, this is how
much it's gonna cost.
And then actually, like he wasasking me for more money, like
oh, like you know, this actuallycosts more than we thought.
Like can you send me you knowanother tank brand or however
much it was?
And it's kind of like whoa,like that's not cool.
(18:54):
And so I really appreciatedwith Outside man how I got like
this, you know this likeitemized invoice, so I knew
exactly what every singlecomponent cost.
And that's also helpful becausewhen you are coming up with
your budget for your van, ifyou're like maybe I don't need
that on eaten or maybe I don'tneed that sidestep because I
(19:16):
wanna, you know, I need to likecut the cost of the van a little
bit here or there, and so doingit that way really allows you
to see like, okay, what are mypriorities in terms of like what
I'm spending my money on?
Speaker 1 (19:33):
That is amazing.
They gave you the line optionslike that and you can choose to
delete things.
I didn't know that that waspossible, so that seems amazing.
And did they provide like awarranty?
Like you were saying the firstguy, there was like no warranty
involved.
Is there one on the outside van?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, so with the first guy, I was up in Olympic
National Park and all of asudden I noticed like my freezer
, like my freezer had defrostedand there was water and like all
over the floor from the ice inthe freezer, and I was like
that's so weird.
And so, as it like turns out,my solar panels were not
(20:13):
charging and I also he didn'thook up my batteries to my
alternator, which I think ispretty standard practice now,
because the alternator cancharge your batteries so much
more quickly than solar and it'salso a nice backup if it's
cloudy or it's winter orwhatever.
So so, anyways, my solar panelsweren't working and my partner
(20:35):
Ryan he's type one diabetic andwe had his insulin in the fridge
like the insulin's like gettinglike nothing in my fridge is
cold.
And you know, I was like insort of a panic because it was
like the first trip we'd evertaken.
We like didn't have any serviceand he didn't give me any
manuals for the van, for likeany of the parts not that
probably would have been helpfulanyways, but so we had to drive
(20:58):
into Port Angeles or whereverwe were, and I called him and he
like literally had no idea howto help me and his only option
for helping me was for me todrive my van all the way down to
Santa Barbara and he would takea look at it.
Well, at that point I decidedthat this guy was just a crony,
(21:19):
and you know I didn't wantanything to do with him.
And it really like he wasn'treally providing any sort of
warranty or assistance and itwas clear that he didn't like if
he wired it wrong in the firstplace, why would I trust him to
fix it?
And I ended up going to like anRV shop in Port Angeles and
they said that he had used likecompletely the wrong type of
(21:40):
wire to like wire up my solarpanels, and so they got them
working again.
But I ended up having toreplace like the whole system,
which you know he did not helpme with.
And so having a warranty waslike really important for me as
I went into my second van build.
So outside of the van offered athree year or 36,000 mile
(22:04):
warranty where they just fixed.
You know, I mean I reallydidn't have anything like major
happen with my second van andI'm still under the warranty
with my third van and but yeah,they just like, they just take
care of it and that's what, like, a professional company should
do.
What you know outside of the vanor anybody else you know.
If you're spending top dollaron a van and something breaks
(22:28):
within you know a year orhowever long the warranty may
cover, like they should, theyshould take care of it.
And you know, sometimes thatmeans you know if you're in New
York and you're conversioncompanies in California like you
shouldn't be expected to driveyour van across the country
because you know something's notworking right.
(22:49):
So in that case, you know youcan ask well, what happens in
that case?
Are you going to help me find acompany nearby that can fix it
or are you going to cover thecost?
If you know I do have to go getsomebody else local to work on
this, or can they send me a partso I can fix it myself?
And you know, do like outsideof the van has like a full
(23:09):
warranty, like department thatyou know will help you.
So when things go wrong it'slike one person that you call
and they you know he helps you.
So I don't mean to keepreferring back to them because
there are other, you know bigplayers in this being conversion
.
You know space that I'm sureare comparable.
(23:31):
That's just who my experienceis with and it's like showing me
.
But hey, this is again likewhat a professional van
conversion company can andshould do and I think that
that's sort of the differencebetween.
Again, I don't want to knockthe small guys, because I you
know, or girls you know who arebuilding vans, but a bigger
(23:54):
company is just going to havemore capacity and like capital
to help you fix your van whenthings go wrong, where someone
who's new and starting out theymight not have, you know, the
excess funds to just likereplace your batteries or you
know something, in the case thatsomething breaks.
So I think that's justsomething to keep in mind.
(24:17):
You know, if you are going towork with a smaller company like
these are important questionsthat you have to ask.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Right, because you're really burned on that first guy
that you had to put so muchadditional money toward things
that were breaking.
I mean, that sounds like anightmare.
Yes, oh my gosh, Were your likecabinets, were things like
falling coming loose as youdrove down four by four roads
with that van?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Well, I didn't really get to drive off on many four
by four roads because I was soscared of things breaking.
But like, yeah, the drawerslike stopped work.
You know, like the push buttonsthat you know people used to
like keep their drawers put in.
I know they fail, it's not likeit's.
You know, even in a really wellbuilt van, sometimes those
buttons, you know things justget misaligned.
(25:02):
But I mean, none of them wereworking and like a lot of the,
because the wood he used wasn'tlike I don't think it was just
like reclaimed wood, it wasn'tlike sealed, which with like
temperature swings if you'regoing from a snow to like a hot,
you know a hot summer climatelike the wood is going to war
(25:24):
over time.
And so you know, just like,looking at the materials that
these companies use as well,like again, like, if you're like
tile has become kind of like apopular material and some of
these more like Instagram worthy, pinterest worthy vans.
But you know, if you want todrive off road and you want to
(25:47):
go up mountain passes, like dirtroad mountain passes with your
van, like those materialsprobably aren't the best choice.
And so someone who you know,when you're interviewing a
company, like they should askyou what you want to use your
van for and then be able tosteer you in the right direction
as far as like what are likethe best materials for the
purpose that you want to useyour van for.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah, that's very true.
I have seen a lot of those vansyou're talking about that look
almost like a house or anapartment on the inside with the
fancy materials and I'm likethat's just going to jostle free
, going off-roading If that's.
But maybe people don't want todo that, like, maybe people just
want to go to campgrounds andnot do off-roading.
But me and you love boondockingand getting into nature, so we
need that stuff to be sealeddown and the suspension and
(26:29):
everything.
So, yeah, it depends on whatyou're using the van for, I
guess too.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
And exactly yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, oh my gosh.
So good.
So your experience with outsidevan was so good.
You had your third van builtwith them, also to accommodate
the newest member of your family, right?
Yes, yes, I had a son backinstead of you, larry.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
And so now it's three of us plus two dogs, and my
second van only had two seatbelts, so we had to sell that
one, which I've learned withthat van so much.
But yeah, I had to sell that toaccommodate a third seat belt.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, for sure, and earlier we touched on it very
briefly that you decided tochange some of your layout after
that first van.
And you know so many people askme and probably you like why
don't you have a bathroom inyour van?
I could ask that all the timeand you had a bathroom in your
van, so you've done both.
I've never had one in my van.
So I can't I don't know whatit's like, but yeah, what was
(27:29):
what made you decide on some ofthese layout changes after that?
First van Sure.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
So the first van was like when you open the slider
door there was like aconvertible sofa against the
wall behind the driver's seat.
That was like sort of my workarea, but then it pulled out
into a bed and then behind thebed was the galley and then on
the passenger side, in the back,was the full shower, bathroom
(28:01):
and some storage space.
And what I learned when I wastraveling by myself in that van?
It was fine because I couldjust sleep on the sofa as is.
I didn't have to pull it outand make it.
But I didn't like theconvertible bed idea in general.
I found it annoying to have tolike find somewhere to store my
(28:22):
bedding every day.
If, like when Ryan, my partner,and I were traveling together,
if I wanted to get up early andwork while he was still asleep,
I couldn't do that.
I actually couldn't do anythingbecause the bed took up the
whole front half of the van, soI couldn't really even, like you
(28:44):
know, get up to like.
I mean, I functioned in thekitchen a little bit, but then I
had nowhere to sit.
I was like climbing over thebed to get from one side of the
van to the other and then, yeah,the full bathroom ended up just
being such a waste of space.
For me it was like an expensivecloset basically.
And I guess, with the shower, mythought is, you know, with this
(29:13):
, unless you have a duly and youcan carry like a lot more water
, you know most vans are onlycarrying 20, 25 gallons max, and
so the shower that you can takewith that water is very quick.
You know, kind of militarystyle, where you're like rinsing
(29:33):
yourself, turning off the water, lathering up, rinsing, turning
off the water.
You're not like standing undera nice hot shower, like really
enjoying yourself.
And the space is so small that,like you know, I'm only five
foot five, but it's not, youknow, I still felt cramped in
there and so like try to likeshave my legs or something you
(29:56):
know like bend over it in there.
Anyway, sorry to paint thatpicture, but you know it's just
a small space and I, you know, Iimagine, for you know, someone
bigger, like my partner, ryan,or like a larger man, it just
doesn't really make a lot ofsense.
And there's just so many placeson the road that you can shower.
(30:19):
You like to shower atrecreation centers.
Those are kind of my favoritebecause they tend to be really
clean and sometimes you can usea pool and hot tub and sauna or
whatever if they have that.
So you know that's one goodoption.
You know every now and thenwe'll stay at like a paid
campground that has a shower, sothat's an option like visiting
(30:42):
family and friends.
I've never showered at like atruck stop, but that's an option
.
So there's so many differentplaces that you can shower.
It just felt like such like Icould actually get an Airbnb
like many, many times throughoutthe year and it still wouldn't
be as expensive as it costs tolike build a shower in my van.
So that that was kind of that.
(31:09):
And then so I kind of went fromthe extreme of having like the
shower and I had like a cassettetoilet to having no shower and
no cassette toilet and justusing like a P jar P bottle to
go the bathroom, for number one,and then using like public
facilities for number two.
But then COVID happened and itwas like, oh, maybe it would be
(31:30):
nice to have like not be soreliant on public facilities.
So now we have a like a Wagbagtoilet, which the one we use is
made by Go anywhere.
It's like a little foldable,almost like a little foldable
briefcase and the legs like popout and then you just put a
Wagbag in and it's really simpleand easy to use and then when
(31:52):
you're not using it, it storesaway and it doesn't take up any
space, and then we still usejars for going pee.
So and that's what's worked forus.
Now that I have a baby and likeonce he becomes a party
training age, I don't reallyknow what we'll do.
You know, we're just going tohave to kind of figure it out.
I would like to test out likethere's just like more new
(32:14):
composting toilets coming on themarket, so I'd be open to doing
something like that in the dayI have now or maybe a future van
.
But yeah, that's my thought forthe toilet.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
This is totally digressing from our original
conversation, but everyonealways asked about toilets.
But I tried a composting toiletand it like really grossed me
out.
It was like it wasn't bigenough for two people to use
every day, like I think it'd befine for people to use in an
emergency or like once a week oronce a month, but we tried
using it every day for a weekand it did not work at all.
(32:47):
It was like the grossestexperience in my life and I'm
like I'm never.
I think like definitely for youknow, having a once in a while
emergency toilet in the van, youknow, like year ago, anywhere a
chair which my dad also uses.
He loves that thing.
He digs a hole in the earth andputs it over that.
But we could do a whole episodeon toilets, oh for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
But yeah, that's interesting that you didn't put
one in your other vans and likedid you put anything else in
there that used that space thatyou just found was a better,
better living area?
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Oh, definitely, yeah.
So I'm all about the platformbed.
Now I think it's not like thatto say that's like YOU're
calling for some kind of that.
I just like having storageunder the bed for all of my
outdoor gear.
We travel with backpacking gearsometimes.
Sometimes we have pack raftinggear.
We've had stand-up palliboards.
(33:41):
We swap things out based onwhere we're going, or up until
this year was the least amountof time I spent in my band.
Up until this year, we werespending anywhere from about
eight or nine months a year inour band.
Then we were coming back hometo Utah this year because of
maybe we spent a lot more timeat home and lost him on the road
(34:03):
.
But when we're going to be gonefor eight or nine months, we
have a lot of different gear wewant to bring, because we don't
know where the road is going totake us and what kind of outdoor
adventures we might be having.
We had bikes, backpacking gear,palliboards, just all kinds of
stuff.
That really a convertible bed.
You lose all of that storagespace.
(34:25):
You've gained some living spacebecause you have a nice dinette
that you can sit at and eat atand work at, but you lose all
the storage for all the gear andwhatnot.
I'm a big fan of that.
I switched from a gas stove inmy first van to induction, which
is way better.
(34:45):
Even in my second van I wasable to have the platform bed
and still accommodate a smalldinette for working.
Since I work from the road,when we're in our van I have
stuff I have to get done.
I really like that.
In my second van I had adedicated dinette working area
(35:08):
in addition to the bed.
I didn't have to set up myworkspace, take it down when I
was done.
Now in my third van, because ofthe third seatbelt chair, I
don't have a dedicated workspaceanymore, which has definitely
been a little bit harder If Icome to work outside.
(35:30):
It's hard to work with the babyanyways in the van, which we
could do a whole lot of sort ofmess, just travel.
The platform bed is probablythe biggest change.
I just like being able to ifwe're driving.
We've driven across the countryseveral times.
(35:51):
We've just stayed in rest areasbecause we're just trying to
get to New York where my partnerRyan's from Just being able to
drive until we're tired and thenget in the bed and go to bed
versus like oh, I've got to getoff the seats in the pillows and
make the bed and go throughthat whole process.
I just love being able to justhop back there and not having it
(36:13):
be a big process.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah for sure.
Yeah, I'm totally with you onthat.
We also have the platform bed,and too much outdoor gear to
even talk about is ridiculous,but these are our outdoor
haulers.
They call them gear haulers.
They help us get into nature.
That's what's important.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, everybody's done thisvan life for a different reason,
but for me, I started van lifebecause I wanted easy access to
the outdoors and to nature andto be able to camp in places
that I wouldn't have been ableto camp otherwise, and to be
able to travel long term in myvehicle without feeling like too
(36:54):
cramped, I guess.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yeah, it's a really wonderful thing to have a
sprinter you can walk around in,because we started in an Astro
and that was way smaller minivan which is a convertible bed.
But having these large vanswith a full bed is just a
wonderful experience.
I'm very thankful for it.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Yeah, me too.
It definitely feels like theluxury, I think, to be able to
travel in that way and just thefreedom that you get from
traveling in a van and theability to be spontaneous.
I just think that there's noother form of travel that
provides those benefits in thesame way.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yeah, totally.
It's your own tiny home.
If you work with a good builder, it'll be the right one.
With not-stop-breakingconstantly, that was a pretty
crazy story that you have.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Have you heard that from other people too, with bad
builders?
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, sadly I have.
I think people read, they comeacross my blog and they're like
I get a lot of emails frompeople that are like, oh my gosh
, your story is so familiar.
I wish I had read your blogbefore I hired so and so, yeah,
it's just really unfortunate.
I think the van life industryjust has exploded.
(38:11):
I think a lot of people haveseen opportunity in creating
businesses around serving thevan life community.
One type of those businesses isbeing a van builder.
Again, I think people are likeoh, I built furniture, I can
build vans.
I think so.
(38:32):
I do think it happens, and Ithink also, like, just with the
cost, I think a lot of people, alot of these new builders,
couldn't get in under their headbecause they don't realize how
much it's actually going to costto build a van, how much time
it's going to take, and so yougive in this person your money,
but then they're like run out ofmoney because they
(38:55):
underestimated how much it wasgoing to cost or the amount of
time it was going to take them,and so then you're kind of left
with a van that's not done orsomething that's just really
subplor or just a person who'sreally difficult to work with.
So I think you also need to makesure that your personalities
mesh, that you like them aspeople, because you're going to
(39:18):
be in touch with them a lotduring the process of building
your van and have to work withthem on the layout and all that.
So you just want to make surethat it's a person that you
actually like, might enjoyhanging out with, even if you
will never actually hang outwith them.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah, that's a good tip because you are working with
them for many months on yourvan and you want to like them.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Yeah, that's good to keep in mind, cool.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
So, yeah, tell people more about your blog.
I know I found you in I don'tknow if you know this, but in
2015 when I was planning my JohnMuir trail hike.
So you were like the top resortor the top results on Google,
and I read all your stuff and ithelped me plan it, so that's
how I found you.
Oh, amazing, awesome.
Yeah, a long time ago.
I've been following you andyour van build, so, yeah, your
(40:05):
blog is fantastic, so tellpeople about it, what they can
find over there.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Sure, yeah, so I.
My blog is called BarefootTheory but it's spelled bear,
like the animal, because I havea great bull dead dancing bear
tattoo on my foot, so that iswhere the name comes from, and I
write about van life.
I have like probably 70different blog posts on my site
of all aspects of you knowchoosing a van, having a van
(40:32):
built out, like all thedecisions that you have to make,
and then just tips for living,traveling, working on the road.
I also hike.
That's like my favoriteactivity when I'm on the roads.
I have tons of hiking content.
I'm trail guides, tips, gearand I'm seeing, with backpacking
and car camping and roadtripping, lots of itineraries.
(40:52):
So that's kind of what I do and, like I said, I spend normally
a lot more time in my van.
Hopefully I'll get back on theroad soon, once my baby's a
little bit older, but, yeah, sothat's what I do, and you can
find me at Bearford Theory onthe internet and on the socials
(41:13):
and on YouTube, yeah, so awesome.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Yeah, well, definitely link to all your
stuff below so people can goclick over there and find it.
And yeah, if you, I know youhave some van life specific
email list, so if you know what,we're going to add a link to
that as well, so people can comejoin your email list.
You send out good stuff.
I'm on it, so yeah thanks.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, I also mentioned I don't know what the
future holds for this that I doput on an event called the open
roads vest.
I've done it twice in McCall,idaho, and last year we had like
450 people come in, alldifferent types of vehicles,
vans and even tank camperscoming to learn about van life
with workshops.
We also have mountain bikingand paddleboarding and yoga and
(41:57):
live music and it's just amazinggathering.
I don't know what I'm going todo next summer, but just to put
it on people's radar to keep aneye out in case I decide to
announce any future dates.
You can find that atopenroadsvestcom.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Very cool.
Well, yeah, also link to thatso people can stay up to date.
But, yeah, thank you so much.
Is there anything we missed onchoosing a van bill company,
that we talked about a lot ofthings.
No, I think that's it.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
I mean the people can reach out to leave their
questions.
I mean I hesitate to like everrecommend, like specific
builders just because, like ablog will email me like, oh, do
you know it's so and so, andit's like I can't say yes or no
because I haven't traveled andlived in one of their vehicles.
So it's really hard.
I think the best thing that youcan do is find somebody who's
built you know, who owns a vanby the company that you're
(42:49):
seeing about hiring, and likereally, really talk to them.
I think also, like a lot of theyou know, there's so many like
industry events now, like theOverland Expo and the Adventure
Band Expo, like a lot of thecompanies are there.
So that's a great place to seelots of different van van builds
in one place and then you cankind of compare and contrast.
I mean I think the more builtlands you see before you go into
(43:12):
this process, you know it helps, you know what you want and it
also just like allows you tocompare and contrast like
quality from like the naked eye.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Yeah, that's good.
You mentioned that.
I also wanted to mention thattoo.
So I'm glad there's all theseevents Adventure Van and the
Overland Expo.
I don't know if there's otherones, but it's a great place to
tour vans.
I've done that myself and it'sfun.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of like and I think the
innovation is really neat.
You know, people are coming outwith like even your fellow,
like wow, like you think everylayout has been used by now, but
sometimes you see see newthings that you're like wow, I
would have never thought of that.
And so it's going to need tosee what some of these people
are coming out with.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, for sure, cool.
Well, thank you so much forjoining the podcast.
You have so much good tips andadvice, so thank you.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah, thank you so much Okay.
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