The Calamitous Global Battle: Is Cash Obsolete?

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So as using cash in a cashless society good for you,
good for society, or bad for you and bad for
society actual cash, physical dollars. Is this good or bad
for you in the economy. Today, we're going to discover
why you might want to use cash or accept cash

(00:21):
as a business owner, and why you might not want
to what are some of the dangers of it. And
we have the expert on this, professor Jay z Gorski
from Boston University, who wrote the book The Power of
Cash Why using paper money is good for both you
and society. So I think that's a very important part
of what we're talking about today, because we're talking about

(00:44):
the global and we're also talking about the individual. And Jay,
it's really just a pleasure and privilege to have you
on the Waltability Show.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Thank you very much, Tom, it's great to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
And if you would give us a little of your
background why this focus on cash money.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
So, about a decade ago, I was invited by the
Federal Reserve of Boston to participate in a survey to
help design a survey to see how people were paying
for things, because the Federal Reserve was kind of concerned
that people were moving away from cash, and they wanted
to figure out how people were using various electronic means.
At that time, when I showed up at the Federal Reserve,

(01:26):
I was a credit card maximizer. My goal was to
accumulate as many points and miles as possible, and with
those points and miles, about a decade ago, I went
on sabbatical. My wife and I. We traveled three quarters
of the way around the world business class on Frequent
Flyer miles, and my wife was quite happy about that.
And then I started digging into the data, and I

(01:47):
suddenly realized that my personal use of credit cards at
one hundred percent of my spending, and society's use of
electronic payments was actually having some deletarius problems in the world.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Okay, so let's start with the world. Okay, you say,
it's kinds of problems in the world. And this is
an interesting subject, Jay, because you know, we we've seen
China go to a digital currency. We've seen the FED
actually talk about and then pull back from a digital currency.

(02:23):
Trump said We're never going to have a digital currency.
But Trump's only there for three and a half more years,
so who knows what will happen. After that, Biden actually
went down the direction of a digital of a digital currency.
So you know, there's this there's there's quite this battle
going on between the digital and the physical. Why do

(02:44):
you think it's a problem that we would go to
a fully digital currency in the world.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Let me talk about three big issues from sort of
a macro point of view, and the first one is privacy.
When you have a totally digital currency, especially one that
runs through the central bank, then the government knows everything
you're spending, and if the government doesn't like you, it
can shut off your electronic wallet and preventing you from

(03:13):
spending any kind of money. So that gives governments an
incredible amount of control over people's lives. Whether they choose
to exercise it or not, can't tell you, but I
can certainly tell you that it gives them the ability
to do that. But not everyone's worried about privacy. A
lot of people say, oh, privacy of that boat's already sailed.
We don't have to worry about that. So I'd like
to talk about two particular issues that are really important.

(03:37):
Number One, there's been an increase in the number of
natural disasters. As a quick example, we've seen wildfires in
Los Angeles a few months ago. Before that, we saw
wildfires in Hawaii. We are seeing an increase in tornadoes
and torrential rains right now in the Midwest. Depends exactly
when your listeners are going to watch this video. I'm

(04:00):
sure there's some calamitous, calamitous weather event happening. Electronic payments
work when there's electricity, when there's communications, and when there's
secure computer networks, and when there is a terrible weather event,
electricity and communication networks fail, which means in the very

(04:20):
moment that you need to spend money, you need gas
to get away, you need food, you need water, you
need medicine. That's the very moment that electronic payments let
you down and cash cash works even when it's soaking wet.
That's the second point. The third point is we have
lived for the past number of decades in a very

(04:42):
peaceful society. Relatively few wars. I know the headlines suggested.
It seems to be wars all over the place, but
they're relatively minor. We're not seeing world wars like in
the nineteen forties or in the nineteen tens during wartime,
and there seems to be increase. Seeing conflict happening in
the world. During wartime, a country can basically want to

(05:06):
blockade its enemies. And how do you blockade your enemies
today if it's a truly electronic society, basically even shut
down the banking system electronically.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Well, that's basically what Biden did with Russia, right, Well,
shut them out of Swift, which is effectively shutting out
of the world banking system.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
When you get shut out of the banking system, you
can't do things. To go back to the Biden example,
there were a large number of Russian tourists abroad in
places like Thailand or in parts of the Middle East,
sunning themselves on beaches. Suddenly a war broke out and
they couldn't pay their hotel bills, they couldn't get a
taxi to the airport. They were stuck unless they had
paper money, and most of them didn't. So paper money

(05:50):
works when there's natural disasters. Paper money works when there's
war or the threat of war, and paper money it
gives you privacy and removes government can Now, a lot
of people might be watching this video and say, Okay,
great is convinced me. I'm going to go run out
pick up a couple hundred dollars stick it under my mattress.
I'm going to say that isn't the right solution, and

(06:13):
it's not the right solution because if you just hoard
paper money, it's not useful in an emergency. It has
to be used continuously. What do I mean by that?
If you're an entrepreneur, your business needs to accept paper
money so that you know what to do with it
when an emergency happens. If you're a shop owner or

(06:33):
you're a merchant, your people need to have procedures to
handle paper money. You can't just do it. Oh wait,
the power went out. What do we do except paper money?
It doesn't work. Let me tell you a quick personal story.
I went to the supermarket about a week ago and
I was supposed to get forty cents change for my order.
And the person sat there and they looked at the

(06:54):
nickels and dimes and they couldn't figure out whether they
give me nickels or dimes, so they gave me four
nickels and I was like, no, no, that's cents, that's
not forty cents. And the head cashier had to come
over and explain to them the difference between nickels and dimes.
And afterwards, okay, I get it, I get it. You know,
dimes are worth ten cents, nichols are worth five cents.
But I was kind of flatterergasted that this person had

(07:15):
used cash so little that they couldn't tell the difference
between a five cents.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
And you illustrate something I think that's important is that
when we do something physical, our brains connect. This is
a Montsori's idea, right, what the what the hand does,
the mind remembers. And so if I'm out here, so
I carry I always carry cash, and I actually carry
cash because I got stuck once without cash and I

(07:40):
and it was and I actually had invited somebody, a friend,
to lunch, but I'd let him choose the place and
the place only the restaurant only accepted cash, and so
he actually had to pay for lunch even though I
invited him, because he tells the place I only had cash,
and I didn't have cash. But it just to me,
it pointed out. Ever since then, I've always carried a

(08:01):
goodly amount of cash, and I use it, and typically
I use it when I travel. You know, I use it.
You know, I don't you know, some places I don't
want to use it. If if it's too big of
a purchase, I tend not to use it. But I
like the idea that what you're talking about here with
your with a with the waiter is that it actually
makes you do math. So it actually forces you to

(08:25):
understand and and and for those of us who are
old enough, I mean, we always used cash. That's what
we had. We didn't have credit cards, we didn't have
debit cards. We had cash. You know, as kids, we
had cash. But what it does is to me is
is it's a great way to teach your teach kids
especially Okay, it's not all electronic. And but let me

(08:45):
go back to a so so that's the danger of
let me go back to a bigger danger, which which
you know, over the last few weeks there's been some
turmoil in the markets, and so what happens for example,
you talked about war time, but can you explain what
happens in a bail in, for example, or what happens

(09:06):
if okay, all of a sudden, your money's not it's
not a digital currency. It is actually you know the
currency we have now, which but you're using the banking system,
and you have money in the bank, what what could
they do and what could happen to the money that's
sitting there in the bank.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
So I wouldn't worry too much about that money disappearing. Instead,
what I'd worry about is something called d banking, and
d banking affects everybody in the economy. As a quick example,
Donald Trump, the President of the United States, just sued
Capital One for saying that he was debanked. A number
of his bank accounts were just shut off by Capital One.

(09:48):
And when you get dbanked, that basically means the bank says, nope,
you're no longer a customer here, and you might suddenly,
you know, be using your credit card, your debit card,
or your mobile payments. And if the bank decides that
day to shut you off, that's when the accounts closed.
Now they give you your money back. They don't steal
your money in any way, shape or form. But the
idea of being debanked is that banks are required by

(10:11):
the federal government to look for suspicious transactions, suspicious people,
and they're required to basically to shut off bank accounts
of those type of people. And you don't know exactly
what's going to cause you to become suddenly debanked. Right,
there's no official rules you do this or that. There's
stories of people who've done transfers of money to their

(10:35):
relatives in a foreign country up that triggered being debanked.
So if you have cash and you get debanked, well
it's not really a big problem. Now. I don't know
exactly when people are going to listen to this podcast,
I hope very quickly. But let me tell you a
story of just a couple of years ago. A couple

(10:55):
of years ago in Canada, there were a large number
of pro protesters who didn't want to follow the COVID restrictions.
Many of these protesters were truckers, and they started driving
around in their home cities, honking their horns, you know,
waving signs, And many of them converged in Auto, which
is the capital of Canada, and they started driving slowly

(11:17):
in circles, honking the horns around Parliament and the head
of the Canadian government got very upset. He said that
this was shutting down the institution of government and he
declared emergency measures. What were the emergency measures gave him
the power to arrest the protesters. Now, we think of
Canada as a liberal democracy, that people have the ability

(11:39):
to protest, drive around slowly in their trucks, honking their horn.
But what he did was even more insidious. He not
only arrested the protesters, but he debanked them. He basically
looked up their license plate numbers. Not he, but members
of his staff looked up their license plates and told
the banks to shut off their accounts. So these people
were arrested, couldn't post bail, couldn't buy food or water,

(12:02):
couldn't do anything because they no longer had money electronically. Now,
if they still had cash, they could have posted bail
and gone back to protesting. They could have you gotten
hotel rooms, they could have gotten food. But if you
become deep banked, then you don't have access to any
of those kind of things. And this happened only a
few years ago in Canada, I would say, one of

(12:23):
the most liberal democracies in the world.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
So you talk about not don't put it under your mattress.
I mean, we all know, we've all seen over the
last few years the cost of inflation. And if you'd
put your if you'd stash a whole bunch of money
unto your mattress four years ago. It's worth a lot
less today than it was four years ago. So what

(12:46):
so a couple of questions. I'm gonna ask a couple
of practical questions and you can give me some broad answers.
That's okay, don't expect to give specific advice. But you know,
how much money are we talking about? I mean, what
kind of money you are you suggesting that you have
on hand? And so I've got three questions, how much?

(13:08):
How would you use it? But the other question is okay,
so you go to the bank, they start asking questions
when you get over a certain amount that you're asking
in cash from the bank, So how do you deal
with that? So can you kind of take those in.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
Order, so hopefully I can remember the order. I recommend
having about three to four weeks worth of cash on hand,
three or four week or what you spend, you know,
so keep a quick track of how much you spend
over say a month, and that's roughly the amount of cash.
I don't recommend storing huge amounts of money in your home.
In particular, I don't recommend storing huge amounts of money

(13:44):
because if people rarely go to the bank, let's say
they get out ten or twenty thousand dollars and then
they only go to the bank. You know, six months later,
banks then start closing branches, banks start removing ATM machines.
So by going to the bank fairly frequently, say every
couple of weeks, you know, every two weeks, every three weeks,
to pull some money out, you're telling the bank please

(14:04):
keep these ATMs around, keep having the ability for me
to pull cash out of the banking system and put
cash into the banking system. I recommend not only do
people keep around three or full week's worth of cash
on hand for emergencies, but they also use cash at
least once a week. If you use cash once a week,
and I'm not telling you the amount, maybe it's just

(14:24):
for a lunch, maybe it's for something else. You're telling merchants,
you're telling shop owners. Cash is important for me to
keep using. I'll be honest. I do have a credit
card in my wallet, and I do use it. I
use it roughly of all my purchases, and I'd be
keeping track over the last year about fifty percent done
in cash and fifty percent done electronically. Just sometimes I

(14:49):
don't have enough cash on me quick example, I love
going to Costco, the big box store, and you know,
Costco is a bit like a treasure hunt. Oftentimes I
go into buy one or two items, I have enough
CA cash for those one or two items, and I
walk out with you know, a tire shopping cart loaded to.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
The brim, not alone on that one day.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Right, So you know, I have cash for roughly what
I'm going to spend in Costco, and if they have
some wild things that I really want, you know, I
just throw it in. I know I have a backup
credit card there. But the key idea is that, you know,
roughly half the times I go to Costco, I do
pay cash, and roughly half the times I use my
credit card.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
Now, they're a good example of a business that actually
appreciates taking cash, and they always have cash available. I
actually find that mean spend. You know, used to be
that the goal was to keep it Costco bill under
one hundred dollars. Right now it's two hundred, right, is
kind of the can you keep it under two hundred,
but it can be three or four hundred. They don't

(15:47):
have any issue with cash, but some businesses do. So
can you talk about you know, you mentioned that that
businesses should accept cash, and what are the benefits of
accepting cash for the business. For the business, I'm not
talking about for the consumer or for the brood economy,
but what are actually some benefits to accepting cash as
a business owner.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
So, as a business owner, and let me be very clear,
if you accept cash, there's two big advantages. The first
one instant payment. You know, if somebody paid cash that
that payment is good. But a credit card could be
a charge back. Someone could dispute the payment all kinds
of things and you might not see that money for

(16:31):
a while. The whole back period could be a week,
it could be two weeks. It really depends on your
type of business and the type of credit card you're accepting.
The second is you get to pass on lower prices.
If Visa, a MasterCard, whatever is charging you two and
a half percent, then most businesses increase their prices by
two and a half percent. If you're using one of

(16:53):
the buy now, pay later systems which guarantee payment all
right so that there is no chargebacks. Some of them
are asking up to five even six percent. So yes,
accepting electronic payments allows your customers the freedom to pay
with electronic means, and that helps many customers who don't

(17:14):
have enough cash. But for you as a business owner,
first you're not guaranteed payment, and second, it costs you
a fair amount of your profits to not accept cash
to accept electronic payments instead.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
So one of the issues, of course, is that that
presumes you have physical people, people physically coming into so
into your business. So if you have a store, et cetera,
that your costco people are physically there, what if you're
not physically there. I mean you mentioned one of your
articles he told the story about trying to pay your
taxes in cash and how challenging that was, and how

(17:53):
you kept being trying, they kept trying to talk you
out of it.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
I did. I tried paying my tax in cash to
the irs, and as we recorded this week, coming up
pretty close to April fifteenth, and that was one of
the most frustrating experiences of my life, especially since every
piece of paper money that I've been using here in
the United States basically says, you know, this bill is
good for all debts, public and private, and to me,

(18:21):
my taxes are my biggest public debt. And I tried
to make it as simple as possible for the RS.
I went to the bank of very crisp bills I
had exact amount that was none trying to ask them
to make change. I went in there with all the
films filled out, I'd done everything ahead of time, and
they just were like, oh, this is very, very hard

(18:43):
for us to accept cash. And it doesn't necessarily have
to be hard to accept cash. And after I wrote
that article, I got a number of emails and phone calls,
and the most interesting phone call I actually had was
from somebody who runs a marijuana dispensary in the West Coast,
and she said, by law, I have to accept cash. Interesting,

(19:05):
which means I have to pay the government. You know,
I'm trying to be an honest business ownan I have
to pay the government. You know, my tax is every
single both month and quarter depended which type of taxes
she had to pay. And I try and bring cash
in and they're just not able to handle it. And
I thought that was actually kind of a very interesting thing.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, so they actually have a challenge accessing accessing the
banking system, and so I mean it's a real problem
for that industry. I know that I know cases like that.
Let me ask you a question, why do you think
Jay that Why don't governments want to accept Why do
they make it hard? Why do businesses make it hard?

(19:48):
How does that benefit them to make it hard for
you to pay cash.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
So let's deal with the government one first, and then
we'll deal with the business one second. Governments I think
are under a misplaced idea, and that wrong idea is
that if we make everything electronic, it's relatively easy to
track everything, and the amount of cheating in society, the
amount of criminal activity in society will go down. And
what I'd like to ask your listeners is this. Imagine

(20:15):
there's a number of drug cartels out there in the world,
number of mafios, sex operations, gambling, these kind of things.
If we eliminated cash, do you think the drug cartels
would say, oh, there's no more cash in society, let's
just close up shop and go home. Would we talk
to the mafia and say, okay, there's no more paper money,
We're just going to stop all of our legal activities.

(20:37):
And I think the answer is pretty simple that it
doesn't matter whether cash exists or not. That people are
going to be who want to be corrupt are going
to be corrupt, whether paper money exists or not.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Well, and yet have you have you ever had a
contractor at your house that said, hey, it's one hundred
and twenty dollars if you give a credit card, but
it or but it's one hundred dollars if you pay cash.
You know full well that that's because they're not going
to report that one hundred dollars on their income tax.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
I do. But if we eliminated cash, that contract would
probably come up with another way of basically trying to
cheat the IRS. That people who are interested in cheating
the IRS are going to cheat the RS, whether paper
money exists or not. And the simplest story that I'd
like to tell your listeners is a couple of years ago,
the government of India was very concerned about people cheating

(21:31):
on taxes, people using cash in the cash economy. And
what they did is, in a single stroke, they eliminated
eighty six percent of all their high value bills, so
basically all high value eighty six percent of their money. Basically,
it took all the high value bills out of circulation
instantaneously and said, sorry, you have to take your old
high value bills. Come to the bank and explain to US,

(21:53):
if you have more than a relatively small amount of
money where you got this money from. Okay, very simple idea.
Let's eliminate all tax sheets. Let's bring all that cash
into the We'll call it the into the day of
light or the day all right. What happened? No change
in tax revenues. All right. Some serious analysis were done

(22:13):
a couple of years after the fact, and the Union
government did not pick up any more tax revenue. So
that was an example in the real world. Or a
major country, not a small one, but a major country
basically wiped almost all cash off the table, introduced a
new type of bills and they didn't see any increases.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
The Euro has done that. The US has eliminated some
very some of the larger currencies. There's been talk about
the US eliminating one hundred dollars because they they are
worried about counterfeit and that's where one hundred dollars bill
is what is used the most in large illicit transactions.
So they talked about that a lot. So that's why

(22:55):
the government says that they would want to do it.
What about big business? Why would business want to not
take cash?

Speaker 2 (23:03):
Ah, businesses don't want to take cash for a very
simple reason. If we eliminate cash, we cause people to
overspend because it's not real. When you tap your phone
or swipe your credit card or insert your debit card
into a machine, it's just sort of electronics. Ah, we'll
pay for it later, or I don't actually know my

(23:24):
bank balance, whatever it is. And this is the exact
same reason. When you go to a casino, you bring
cash in, they hand you chips, and then after you gamble,
you take your chips in cash out. Again, why does
the casinos why do they need to have all these
people in cages transferring chips into money and money into

(23:44):
chips For a very simple reason. When you're gambling with chips,
it's not real. And it's the same idea with credit cards,
with debit cards, with mobile payments. When you're paying electronically,
it's not really real. You just get by do it,
and businesses see much higher conversion rates, which is why
they like electronic payments. Now the downside, as I mentioned before,

(24:07):
you have to pay higher fees and you don't actually
get your money right away. But in exchange, people sort
of have this. You know, it's not real, and because
it's not real, they overspend, and businesses like overspenders.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
You mentioned the casino. I was in Tulsa, Oklahoma, giving
a presentation not too long ago, and they put me
up in the casino. That's where the nice hotel was,
and I'm walking in to go to the restaurant. And
one of the things that's always struck me with casinos
is how fast the slot machines went from a physical

(24:44):
pull and cash to a button and no cash, just
put your just put your card in. We'll, we'll, we'll
just let you use a button. And people push that
button so much faster than they could pull the arm, right,
And so anything that facilitates spending money right, which to

(25:05):
your point, means that on the other side, as the consumer,
it actually holds you back from spending money. So it's
actually a friction against spending money. So as a business,
you want to reduce that friction to get people to
spend more money. As a consumer, though, you want to
increase that friction because you really want it to be

(25:25):
a little harder to spend money. That's why, you know,
I think parents like to give their kids dollar bills.
You know, the tooth fairy does not leave a debit
card the tooth fairy leaves you know, well these days
leaves a five dollar bill. But it was a it
was it was a quarter when I was a kid.

(25:46):
It's a five dollar bill now. But that's that's the
inflat I'm happy with my age. But but that's the
inflationary aspect of money, right is that? And and so
can you know if you really want to protect your spending,
and then one of the ways to do that is
with cash, I think is one of the things you said,

(26:07):
So where do you think it's where do you think
it's go ahead?

Speaker 2 (26:14):
So this is the book that I wrote, The power
of cash while using paper money is good for you
in society? And then the conclusion I actually talked about
that very word. You were just mentioning friction and we
have made ourselves into a frictionless society. And being a
frictionless society, while that's great for some businesses, especially online retailers,

(26:34):
where they just want you to click buy, you see something,
click by and shows up at your door in a
few hours, it's not necessarily good for society, right, And
I realized your show is not about society. But we
have a number of problems. We have problems with gambling,
as we just discussed in casinos. We have problems with alcoholism,
we have problems with drug abuse and things like that.

(26:55):
And here I'm in Boston, in Massachusetts. There are certain
ways that I'd like to recommend in the conclusion of
this book of adding friction back in a quick example, uh,
sports getting sports betting is legal right now in Massachusetts.
I can call up my phone, I can make bet, bet,
bet on any kind of sporting activity almost instantly. And

(27:19):
we don't necessarily want that in society. In the old days,
when you used to bet, you have to go, let's
take the horse track or something like that. You had
to go stand in line, hand someone some cash and
then pick whoever you thought the horse was going to win,
and then you come back cash your ticket out. Today
it's look at your phone, this is what I want.

(27:40):
This is what I want, This that I want, and
people can get into deep trouble. By adding some frictions
back in society, we can reduce these problems. So my
recommendation and the conclusion of the book is that forth
we'll call it sin activities drinking, smoking, gambling, and some
of the other sin activities. We make them into all
cash activities. So you want to gamble, no problem, you

(28:04):
have an app on your phone, but you have to
prefund it by actually going someplace and handing cash over
to that person as long as you're winning that as
much as you'd like. But when your count goes to zero,
you need to show up with cash in hand at
some place and re load your phone, reload your account.
That a little bit of friction makes people stop like, wait,

(28:27):
do I have any money instead of going into debt.
Same thing I recommend for alcohol. You know, you want
to drink, knock yourself out, drink as much as you'd like,
but you need to pay for it with cash. You
don't have cash. I'm sorry you can't drink today.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Well, it's the same reason I like to see taxes
actually show up and you're having to pay tax instead
of having to be withheld to me. It's the same
issue right out of sight, out of mind. And you know,
it's one of my favorite scenes on television and is
Rachel on Friends. She gets her first paycheck and she's

(29:04):
looking at it and she's going, the heck is this
fike a guy taking all my money? Right? And And
that's the issue, is that we don't see it, and
if we don't see it, we don't pay attention to it.
And cash actually helps us to pay attention to it.
So I love this discussion, Jay, I love what you're
doing again. The book is the power of cash. I'm

(29:27):
a big believer. I I I've been keeping cash on hand.
I use cash, so I think it's a really valuable tool.
And I think using physical you know, physicality is actually
a really good way from a CPA's viewpoint. I'm an accountant.
It's a really good way to kind of train your

(29:49):
brain as to Okay, do I really want to spend
this money? Is it? Is it really something I want
to do because I'm going to hand over something physical
as opposed to just tap my phone or tap my
credit card. Thank you Jay. Outside of the book, where
could we go to find out more about your studies?

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Oh? I said? The easiest one is just search on
the internet type Zagowski zag o r Sky. There's only
one of me who's doing a large amount of studies
on me on a while whole variety of topics besides cash.
Or you can go to the Questrum School of Business,
which is where I work. Homepage and you can see

(30:32):
many of the other articles and topics that I write about.

Speaker 1 (30:35):
Awesome. Thank you so much, and just remember, you know,
while we might not be willing to go to the
efforts to pay our taxes in cash, there are other
things that we can use cash for and when we do.
In the end, it's not how much money we make,
it's how much money we keep. And that's why on
the welt Bit of show we're always talking about making
way more money and more importantly, paying way less tax.

(30:57):
And we'll see all next time. Thanks for joining us
on the Wealth Show.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
This podcast is a presentation of rich Dad Media Network.

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