February 16, 2020 • 40 mins
Joe Martin, CEO, Martin Creative
Dan Ritzke, Founder, Third Act Marketing
Chris Bonney, VP of Strategy, Gulo
Zach Wilson, Partner, Gulo
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Chris Bonney (00:10):
Hi everybody.
Thanks for joining us today.
I'm Chris with Gullo solutionsand this is the web of marketing
insights podcast.
Very special episode today.
Zach and I have a couple ofgreat guests that we're just
super excited to have with us.
One is Dan Ritzke from third actmarketing.
Dan, thanks for being with us.
(00:32):
And Joe.
Uh, we have Joe Martin fromMartin creative.
Happy to have you here.
Joe, thanks for joining us.
Joe Martin (00:38):
Does anyone really ever have Joe Martin?
All right, we'll go with that.
Let's go with it.
Chris Bonney (00:45):
Appreciate it.
So we're here to talk abouttoday a storytelling, digital
marketing conversion rateoptimization, covering a lot of
ground.
And how did the, how do thesethings overlap and how as a
marketer listening to thispodcast, how can you know what's
important to take away fromthis?
If you haven't heard ofconversion rate optimization,
(01:07):
then this is a perfect podcastfor you because it is a very
important topic as a marketer toknow.
If you are familiar with thatand aren't sure maybe what your
next steps are, today's podcastis perfect for you as well.
So want to make sure we backthis out and just, um, Zach, I
want to kick it over to you andsay for those that are just on
the podcast saying, you know,I've heard of CRO, I know what
(01:28):
it is, but can you just kind offill me in on what it is and
what it isn't as a marketer?
Zach Wilson (01:35):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So what we defined conversionrate optimization is a couple
things.
For a typical web user, it'ssomething as trivial as
engagement, right?
You're bringing someone to apage and you want them to do
something that can be literallyread, that can be click on a
(01:58):
button, that can be fill out alead generation form that can be
purchase a product and go intothe purchase funnel.
So there's there, there's somevery high level terms that we
break these things down are downas in the science of all those
(02:19):
things is actually conversionrate optimization.
And what we wanted to try anddissect today a little bit are
what is conversion rateoptimization one two, because it
means something different toeverybody.
How do you, how do you talk topeople about conversion rate
optimization?
Because when we talked aboutconversion rate optimization and
(02:42):
say that, or CRO, people's eyesjust glaze over and we lose
them.
So never use that term if you'retalking with someone, a
prospective client, that'snumber one.
And um, and then too like Chrisalluded is, is what are the,
what are the important aspectsof conversion Optor optimization
(03:03):
to, um, to marketers and thepeople that are actually
implementing these things.
So that's, that's, those are thekind of the ideas that we've
been tossing around and that'swhy we bought, brought in, uh,
Joe and Dan to try and pluckthese things apart with us
today.
Chris Bonney (03:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
That's perfect.
Uh, Joe, I want to kick it overto you and can you just let
folks that haven't seen you, uh,speak yet or, or seen you on a
podcast yet, uh, talk about, youknow, your background a little
bit and what's led you to focuson this conversion rate
optimization thing and why it'sso important and something as
(03:39):
marketers that we really want topay attention to.
Joe Martin (03:43):
Yeah.
I started off as a web developerin the field, just learning how
to code websites.
From there I went to school fordesign after design school and
it started to start my owncompany.
And it's there that all of asudden I think anyone who starts
a company or even freelancers,you start to realize just how
much more is involved inbuilding a website in terms of
even communication with aclient, invoicing everything you
(04:05):
need to get across to do if youhave people that you're working
with, you payroll and taxes,insurance.
So started doing all that.
And uh, as I was building up, Ireally heavily got into the
sales and the marketing side andI started to realize just how
important copy was in thoseregards and that what you say is
so very important.
And for a while I actually feltlike I wasn't doing companies'
(04:28):
justice because I would designthem the site and then say,
here, go put in all your copywhen really it should have been,
Hey, what do you want to say?
And then we'll design and thesite around it.
Because what we really want fromthe site is it to convert it.
We want it to actually have youget new customers.
And I think that's what makes itso important these days is that
this is, this is all we'retrying to do.
(04:49):
When you spend money on AdWordsor SEO, you're just trying to
get people to become customers.
Well, we kind of lose sight ofthis idea of, Oh, we're just
trying to get them to ourwebsite.
It's like, no, no, no, we needto get them there.
But then we need to convertthem.
We need to make them take somekind of action and using the
data, the analytics behind it.
This is CRO is the future.
(05:09):
This is where it's headed.
Any company that's not lookingat conversion rate optimization
is already behind.
Chris Bonney (05:16):
Oh, those are great insights.
And Dan, I want to kick it overto you based on what Joe said.
He said something aboutmessaging and I think it's a
great point to say it's onething to design a website, but
what are you building it for?
What do you want it to do andhow are you going to say that?
So just can you just talk alittle bit about your
background?
I know, you know, you're, you'rea marketing, positioning,
messaging, you know, uh, aconsultant that works with
(05:39):
clients all the time and you'veseen a wide spectrum of people
and companies that have maybebeen misguided in the way that
they're thinking about the worldof marketing.
Is it features or benefits or isit about actually the emotional
connection that we're trying tomake with people?
Um, and how does that toconverting somebody on your
(05:59):
website, cause it feels likesuch a process workflow based
thing, but to Joe's point, um,messaging and how you see what
you're saying is so important.
So can you just fill us in onyour background a little bit,
why you think storytelling issuch an integral part to what we
do, um, from an emotional driven, um, marketing and conversions?
Dan Ritzke (06:21):
Yeah, definitely.
Um, so my background, uh, mostof my career I spent working in
advertising.
Uh, I worked for, uh, adagencies here in Chicago for a
little over 11 years.
Um, and, uh, for as long as Ican remember, to me, great
marketing, effective marketingis always synonymous with great
(06:42):
storytelling.
Um, you know, a lot of times Ithink, uh, you know, small
businesses all the way up tofortune 500 and 100 companies
are kind of fall into a trap of,um, getting into a habit of, you
know, uh, using their marketingas, as kind of just a Bullhorn
to, uh, communicate, uh,features and benefits and, you
(07:05):
know, as a company why we thinkwe're great and why our product
is great and how we're differentand better than our competitors.
And so, you know, we get so usedto that over time that, uh, um,
uh, about a year ago I decidedto start my own company and, uh,
to focus in on, uh, consultingand strategy and storytelling to
really help companies.
(07:26):
Uh, for me it's really justgetting back to the basics of,
of what makes, uh, um, uh,communicating, uh, effectively,
uh, really comes down to withconnecting with your audience.
And, and for me, the best way todo that is getting back to the
basics of, of, of reallyunderstanding your audience.
(07:46):
Um, uh, figuring out what it isthat they, they want.
What is it that they need?
Uh, figuring out as a, as acompany, if you have a product
or a service, how was thatsolving a problem for your
audience?
And getting really, really clearon, on, you know, it's not about
me, it's not about, uh, youknow, me as the business owner,
it's about my audience.
And, um, and the way that I'mgoing to connect with them is by
(08:07):
, uh, is by telling really thebest story, uh, that I can,
that, that they're going to wantto pay attention to.
It's going to get theirattention and, uh, and it's
going to keep their attention.
And that's, you know, that's thevery first step to getting
someone to convert or to takesome kind of an action.
Um, you know, you're never gonnabe able to do that unless you
really are able to kind of hookthem in.
(08:29):
Um, and, and for me, I saw ahuge, huge gap kind of, um, in,
in, in the marketplace of, of alot of companies that are not
really not really doing that,um, real effectively.
And it's, uh, a big missedopportunity.
And so I think, you know,storytelling strategy is really
synonymous and, and just kind ofpart of kind of a CRO mindset.
(08:51):
And so one of the things that Ilove that, uh, Daniel touched on
there is this idea of you needto talk in the,
Joe Martin (08:56):
in the voice of the customer.
And when I talk about this beingkind of the future of what I see
is one of the things that Ithink I love about conversion
optimization is it forces you tobe empathetic.
That as a company you reallyneed to get into the mind of
your customer and understandwhat are they going through?
How can I really help them?
And then it's forcing you tothink more about an individual
and less about the dollars,which is just for me.
(09:17):
I think that's the biggest thingthat we're, we're bringing a
little humanity back intomarketing here.
Chris Bonney (09:23):
No, that's excellent.
Absolutely excellent points.
Um, and, and Joe, I know thatyou have, uh, done some research
and some, uh, original data thatyou have and, and, and worked
with companies on this and youalso have some points to look at
and how, you know, I think it'sa, you know, five tips to, to do
(09:46):
this better.
So before we get into that,cause I do want to, um, can you
talk about what the, you know,wha what the data is saying it.
Do you have examples from yourdata as to why this is important
or what, you know, what someconversion optimization success
stories might look like,something like that.
Joe Martin (10:07):
Yeah, I can run through a couple of them.
And I guess the first thing tounderstand is conversion rate
optimization happens and everyin multiple places, cause it can
happen inside of an email.
It can happen on a website.
It can happen during a salescall that every single one of
those components can beconversions.
And so we're kind of looking atthings overall.
But when we talk specificallyabout a website, we can use
(10:28):
something as simple as ABtesting and AB testing.
If you're not, you're familiarwith it as simple as saying this
or that.
[inaudible] that's it.
And letting people choose thisor that and then seeing what
happens.
And so this is one of the thingsthat I offer for companies is
we'll actually go on theirwebsite[inaudible] suggestions
and run the AB test for them tofigure out which one converts
(10:49):
higher.
And it's amazing how smallchanges can have such a
monumental impact.
[inaudible] uh, there's acompany we're working with in
Chicago.
We rewrote the first sentence ofthe website, which should
usually be your unique valueproposition.
Let's people know who you are,what you do, why they want to
work with you.
We rewrote that in their call toaction and we saw 35% increase
(11:13):
in transactions with a Floridacompany I worked with.
We changed two words on her site.
All we did was change the callto action, the words on it.
And she's like 28% increase insession value.
And for a different company herein Chicago, they're a pizza tour
in Chicago, which you've nevertaken a pizza tour where the
(11:34):
hell is wrong with you?
Go take a pizza tour a but forthem, absolutely.
I ended up just, yeah, we just,that we rearrange the order, the
tours on their home page.
So instead of it looking likethe price was going up from 89
to 119 to one 59, we switchedit.
So actually put the mostexpensive tour first.
(11:55):
And so it looked like the priceswere actually going down as you
looked at more of the tours andthat ended up seeing a 40%
uplift in revenue that just,that this is what we're
optimizing for, that we're nottrying to optimize a trick,
we're trying to just make thingseasier for you to understand so
you can really understand thevalue of what you're getting.
Chris Bonney (12:13):
[inaudible] you know, um, just something that
just dawned to me, Joe's, you'retalking about this and your
background as a designer too.
So we've talked about copy, wetalked about storytelling a
little bit in calls to action,but what about just design, uh,
you know, have a page in.
How important is that, if atall?
I, it feels like it probably is,but can you just talk a little
(12:35):
bit about that in his, or even away to maybe talk about that
hierarchically, you know, copyversus design, you know, versus
page flow.
I mean, what, you know, thepsychology of the user, how do
those things play into, intothat?
Joe Martin (12:50):
That's where we talked about a little bit
earlier that I feel like a lotof companies, especially web
companies like to do this thingwhere they just find a template
online, move around some stuff,handed over to a client and say,
here, plug in your information.
Zach Wilson (13:03):
When really they're , they're just guessing it,
which should be on that homepage.
And what a lot of sites lack isa sales narrative.
They don't, they don'tunderstand actually how they're
taking someone through this,that if you start to look at
your website as a real person,you get to control everything in
that person says what they'rewearing, what they look like.
You get to dress up your sales,they can say what they need to
(13:25):
and make sure that they'resaying the right things at the
right time.
And that design aspect should behelping to compliment.
Is it, I don't want you to picka picture because you thought it
looked like a good picture.
I want you to pick that picturebecause people in that pizza
tour wondered how much pizza amI going to eat?
And you can show them in apicture how much pizza they get
in one setting.
If we can use images and designto address objections and
(13:47):
provide more information and notjust, might just show pretty
pictures.
Dan Ritzke (13:53):
Yeah.
And actually one, one thing I'lladd to that too is, um, you
know, I, I've never, um, youknow, I, I don't have a design
background that's never beenanything that, uh, uh, that
I've, I've focused on.
I've always, you know, partneredwith really, you know, smart,
talented people.
But one thing that I do help alot of my clients with is, is to
understand, for example, yourhomepage.
(14:14):
You know, someone who's gettingthere for the first time.
As a business owner, there's awhole lot of stuff that we want
people to know about, whether wewant to communicate a lot of
stuff about[inaudible] ourproduct and our people and our
history and everything thatmakes us great.
The stuff that you know, that weknow inside.
Um, but you know, a lot of timesthat is not the stuff that is
(14:35):
going to convert those, thoseprospects when they get to your
sites.
So you have to kind of, again,it's a, comes back to what Joe
was saying about empathy.
I mean, you have to reallyunderstand kind of the mindset
of the person coming to yoursite and knowing I'm gonna, you
know, give them just enough toget them to take that next step,
whatever that next step is.
Um, and, and there's a bunch of,you know, a bunch of stuff that
(14:57):
you're going to want to shareand you're going to have content
and other places on your sitewhere, you know, we're, uh, you
know, has a PA had time in aplace where people will go, you
know, seek out that information.
But, uh, when it comes to theexperience and, uh, you know,
uh, the, you know, that stuffthat the customers are
interacting with, um, you know,keep it simple, keep it, uh, you
know, not a ton of copy, noteven a ton of design, really
(15:19):
just, it's, it's giving themjust the information they need
to, uh, uh, to take that nextstep.
And that's, um, you know, whatthat next step is, is a big part
of the strategy of, of just, uh,uh, keeping it simple and just
literally your job is to kind ofget that person from point a to
point B.
(15:39):
Sorry,
Zach Wilson (15:39):
G rated.
It's simple, stupid kiss.
Mmm.
So on.
On that note, piggybacking offof Joe and Dan, I heard this, uh
, interesting analogy justrecently about empathy and sales
and putting yourself insomeone's shoes with regard to
CRO.
(16:00):
And[inaudible] really hit homefor me because I was, I've been,
I'm sure all of us have been onboth sides of this.
Once I tell it, it's the tradeshow analogy, right?
You're walking down, you'rewalking, you're on the exhibit
floor of a trade show, you'rewalking down one of the aisles
and you're looking, you'relooking, you're looking, and
(16:23):
you've got all of thesevultures, right?
Trying to jump out at you andyou're just like, wait, all I
want to do is see what you'redoing to see if it fits me
right.
And, and the, the parallel for awebsite[inaudible] and along
this line of empathy andbuilding pages or sites that
(16:44):
convert are having this empathyand not being a vulture, right?
So the vulture is the website,as Joe just said, is that that
pace sign up for demo all overthe site and just jumping down
your throat when they reallyhaven't, when you really haven't
(17:04):
done anything to lead the userto down that path, to really get
them to do that demo or sign upfor the free product.
And it's, and it's about, it'sabout that journey and giving
them little samples and nuggetsso that they can understand and
learn and take a peek and figureout if they want to demo or try
(17:29):
the free product or evenpurchase.
So it's, it's, it is a lot aboutunderstanding, putting yourself
in your, uh, your usercustomer's shoes, building that
empathy.
But, uh, you know, again, I'lljust go out on record and don't
be a vulture like that, youknow, try and try and be a
little bit more subtle and alittle bit more tactical about
(17:51):
what you're trying to do.
So, um, you can try and teasethe user a bit.
Joe Martin (17:58):
Yeah.
My, my theory there is thatthere's only probably three to
five things.
Do you need to say to someone toget them to take that next
action now?
Yes, there's absolutelyvariances and if you're trying
to sell something, there'sprobably certain things you'd
say to sell the price pointmatters.
But it comes down to to thoseone or two sentences in both
Zack and Dan hit on this thatDan said, person Zach said, user
(18:22):
and thinking singularly is sucha big component of it and it's
just learn how to sell onecustomer or my favorite Claude
Hopkins quotes, learn how tosell the one before you try to
sell the thousands, figure itall the way out and that you
want to say so much.
And one of the things that a lotof companies do is they put on
their site, they start theirsentences with we, and I'm sure
you probably see this a lot.
(18:43):
This is what we do.
We do this.
Then they refer to themselvesinto the third person just to
change it up so they don't haveto refer to themselves as weak.
And then in the next sentence,it started with the word us.
All the same things.
Start those sentences with theword you instead.
And it's this nice little subtrick that all of a sudden you
start writing the sentence forthe customer.
You write it in the way thatthey're going to read it instead
(19:04):
of writing and how you want tosay it.
Chris Bonney (19:08):
Know.
That's great.
It's a great point in Dan, Iwant to kick this over to you to
just layer on top of this, thepsychology between the implicit
explicit and philosophicalaspects of storytelling and how,
you know, however you want totalk it through, whether you do
it anecdotally or just talk itthrough.
But you know, I think that'sreally layers nicely under what
Joe's talking about is, you know, uh, the, in the mind of the
(19:31):
user, the customer, whatever wewant to say.
There are these three things atplay and so would you mind
giving us a thumbnail of that?
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean I, how much time do wehave?
I could, I could probably talkfor a couple of hours on this.
This is sort of like the stuff Inerd out on, right?
Um, so yes, storytelling is, um,you know, there's an art and a
(19:53):
science to it.
Dan Ritzke (19:54):
Um, and, and all of it's rooted in, you know, 2000
years of, of evidence thatstorytelling is the best way to,
uh, to communicate with someoneand to get their attention and
to captivate them and to, um,and to get them to sort of
forget all this stuff that, youknow, distracts us, um, every
(20:14):
day of, every second of everyday.
Really.
Um, and so it's kind of, yeah,it's the art and a science.
So the, it's really interesting.
The, you know, the human brainhas a couple dominant functions.
One is like, just to help ussurvive and, and to, uh, keep us
from, you know, burning too manycalories, whether it's, uh, you
know, reading a book or, uh, youknow, watching a movie or, um,
(20:38):
literally, uh, you know, doingsomething at work.
We're exhausted sometimes.
And, and it's only because we'vebeen thinking about stuff.
And, um, and so, you know, thesecond we are, you know,
communicating a message ortelling a story or, uh, you
know, talking about a product ora service and that it starts to
get confusing or it starts toget complicated or we're maybe
(21:00):
all over the place.
Um, or it's not like the stuffwe were just talking about.
It's not written about ouraudience or for our audience.
Um, people catch onto thatreally quickly and they tune it
out.
And it's almost a subconsciousthing that, you know, their
brains are telling them this isnot worth our time.
Like we should, we should moveon to something different.
(21:21):
Um, and so that's, that's sortof the, that's the kind of the
science of it.
And then the art of storytellingis, um, is, is, uh, sort of the
practice of keeping you, youknow, your message as, you know,
as simple as you can possiblyget it, use the fewest amount of
words.
I mean, it's, it, it is an artform to tell a story in a single
(21:43):
headline or in a few sentences.
Um, and so when you can do that,it's the best of both worlds.
You're, you know, you're notmaking people work too hard.
Uh, you're communicating thatmessage.
It's about your audience.
Um, and, and you know, those areall the things you need if
you're trying to, uh, really,really quickly and efficiently,
uh, uh, convert people.
(22:04):
Yeah.
Joe Martin (22:04):
So when I go, when I go through that with people and
we talk about making it simpleand getting the phrasing down
correctly, that Dan, I knowyou've had this challenge of
trying to work people into it.
Mine is always, I make themexplain it to my grandmother and
I want you to tell me in a waythat my grandmother understands
what you're saying and what youdo.
She doesn't understand it.
We're out.
[inaudible] too complicated.
Chris Bonney (22:26):
Yeah, no, it's a great, it's a great point.
And I want to get Zach's opinionon something.
Uh, Joe, I think you did know ifwe're going back to the CRO, so
what we've talked about so faris saying, here's what CRO is,
here's the value of it, here'show it's applied.
Here's how storytelling andcopywriting and CTHS design even
(22:47):
are a part of it.
But let's get just superpractical.
Are there things that you cantell people or you do tell
people about CRO that they canjust take away today and uh, and
apply.
And then I'd like to, you know,maybe do a couple and then I'd
like to get Zach's opinion onthat as well on what you're
saying.
Yeah.
[inaudible]
Zach Wilson (23:06):
yeah.
Well, let's take a page out ofwhat everybody is saying here.
Um, and I think there's beensome very practical advice given
, uh, and, and we haven't saidthe star clients, but I think,
you know, explain it to me.
Like I'm, your grandmother is agreat one.
Um, and that needs to be put on,um, on a page for sure.
(23:30):
Uh, practical, uh, advice.
Tip number two is, um, is, islike Dan said, is keep it
simple.
You know, keep these, keep thepage simple, keep, uh, keep
everything very simple and easy.
And with that should be fast ofcourse.
Um, and then from a moreexecutionary step, and this is
(23:54):
something I know Joe does and wedo as well in terms of how
you're looking at analyzingthese things.
It doesn't have to be, and I've,I've actually read a lot of
people on how they do this.
It doesn't, the, the testing,these things doesn't have to be
super complicated.
Come up with a couple ofdifferent hypothesis as to eh,
(24:17):
take a page, for example, yourhomepage or a key landing page.
Take a couple hypotheses of, ofwhat is what users are doing and
make a couple, make a couplechanges and pass them over to
your web team and see whathappens over a small course of
time.
You know, if you've got a lot oftraffic, a couple of weeks, if
you don't have a lot of traffic,it might be a couple of months.
(24:39):
But if it's, if a page[inaudible] uh, or uh, uh, an
inter page landing page or yourhomepage is not doing what you
want, change it and don't wait.
Joe Martin (24:52):
Okay.
That's okay.
[inaudible] that they even knowif it's doing what they want it
to.
There's yes.
I think a lot of people go intoit and they don't understand the
end result they're trying toget.
There's always one of the firstthings we need to know what we
want to measure before westarted looking for the data to
figure out.
We're trying to measure.
So getting, getting some ofthose other things in place.
Uh, to add into your bulletpoints.
(25:13):
Mmm.
A few that I always promote arethings that I've seen on a lot
of sites is this idea that youneed to write sales copy instead
of bullshit.
Yes.
Don't give me the crap aboutyour company.
Actually write sales copy.
I want you to address someone'sobjections, which are their
reasons.
They're saying no to buying.
I want you to touch on theirfears.
(25:33):
Why are they afraid to buy fromyou?
Talk about those things.
Talk about more in that phrase.
That's everyone.
Write sales copy instead of BS.
Number two is to proudly displayyour unique value proposition is
Dan just talked about trying toget it down to one sentence and
one sentence should tell me whatyou do.
So my grandmother understands itand then tells me why I want to
(25:55):
work with you, why I want to buywhat you have.
Now, one of the best ones I'veseen as a company in San
Francisco called Dylan's toursand their unique value
proposition and says many bikesand mini bikes and electric bike
tours to help you see the mosticonic sites of San Francisco in
one day.
I know what you can do, mini bus, electric bike touring.
(26:16):
I know why I want to take thisbecause I want to see it and you
can get it down to that.
You were in fantastic shape andthat should be the first
sentence on your website causewe want to, we want to lower
someone's guard when they getthere.
And we talked a little bitearlier about throwing too much
at you, the vultures justjumping at you.
The first thing someone wants toknow is what the hell do you do
and why do I even want this?
So probably displayed that UVP.
(26:38):
Number two.
Yes, it's proper call toactions.
Understand what next someonewants to take at that point.
Uh, one site that I saw online,they had about five different
items you could add to the cart.
[inaudible] for them was avisitor badge for three 99 and
another one was uh, I think likea stencil set or something for
(26:58):
eight 99.
And the third one was a 79,000,$999 machine.
You're not adding an$80,000machine to your cart.
She's the right call, therecharter to talk to a
representative.
So you use the right call toaction.
So if you are writing styles,copy instead of DX, if you have
that UVP out there, if you'reusing proper CTA is the only
(27:20):
other thing you need to cover.
Lead magnets, which is justsomething to capture someone
when they get there, give themsomething in exchange for their
email address.
You're in good shape.
Final tip.
Okay, keep listening.
It doesn't stop.
We know, I think Dan does,especially Zach.
I know you're not Chris.
We all do this.
It never stops.
There's no, there's no pointthat we, we finish a project and
(27:40):
we go[inaudible] cool.
It's done.
Never happens.
It's always evolving.
Yeah, great points.
Really good points.
And so I thought maybe we coulddo now is have sort of a
lightning round of things.
Chris Bonney (27:52):
I'll start it out, but just, you know, within the
topics that we've covered today,uh, each of us may be go around,
we'll go Joe, Dan, Zack, I'llstart and just maybe give one
website, maybe two or a blog ora person to follow, um, that,
that I think people can takeaway.
Maybe they didn't, haven't heardof it, and they want to learn
(28:13):
more.
And it's a place that we canguide them.
Places that we've learnedourselves.
I'll start, you talked aboutcopywriting, a sales,
copywriting, so copy hackers, Idon't know if you guys are
familiar with, right?
Just the best.
Uh, and if you don't know whocopy hackers is and you're in a
small to midsize business andyou're a marketer and you're
wondering what we mean when wesay write marketing and sales
copy, that's an amazing place tostart.
(28:36):
Um, so I'll throw that one outbased on what you said.
Joe Martin (28:40):
Joe said you want to share your, yeah, I have second
copy hackers folder.
That would have been my secondchoice.
And I've actually had the chanceto meet Joanna Wiebe a couple of
times and just amazing.
It just seems amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, and I met her at theconversion XL conference down in
Austin, which is my big one I'mgoing to push is a site called
(29:01):
conversion xl.com.
And they have an agency wherethey actually do conversion
optimization, but then they'rereally big about teaching,
paying it forward.
And they host an amazingconference every year that's
coming up the first week inApril of 2020 this year.
[inaudible] I'll be there, comehang out, let's go learn
conversion stuff.
I've learned so much fromconversion XL, from their online
(29:23):
courses, their blogs and thenalso going to the conferences.
Yeah.
So yeah, I would um, throw out,um, I think Joe and I talked
about this one time and I tendto tell a lot of people, uh, uh,
building a StoryBrand is areally great, uh,
Dan Ritzke (29:42):
um, I have, my gosh, it's, it's a, it's a whole
company now.
They used to.
It's a, Donald Miller is areally brilliant guy.
Got his start in screenwriting.
I mean he was an author, hewrote books and then wrote a
book building a StoryBrand,which is all about, uh,
storytelling and marketing.
And, uh, really just gettingback to the basics of a lot of
the stuff that we just, um, wejust talked about.
And, uh, and so it's really agreat book.
(30:04):
And, and their whole, you know,website and company that they've
kind of built around it is just,uh, uh, great for businesses of
any size.
If you're a small business orjust getting sort of introduced
to this in a world of, ofmarketing and conversion rate
optimization.
Uh, it's great.
And then, you know, even forsort of larger, well-established
(30:26):
, uh, brands is such a greatsort of like get back to the
basics, um, uh, kind of, uh, anexperience at a website and a
company and, um, and it's a, agreat resource for people, you
know, and I would, uh, I woulddefinitely second that one for
me.
Chris Bonney (30:42):
What I thought was the most interesting about that
is that there is a framework,right?
It's not a formula.
It's not formulaic that you canjust throw against something and
everything's gonna work, but toread that book and understand
what they do, and is it sevensteps, I think, um, of telling
the hero story and who needs tobe involved in the hero's story
in, are you the company, thehero?
(31:04):
No, you're the guide.
And I think that in and ofitself is just sort of a
paradigm shift that if youhaven't thought about it that
way, right.
Um, uh, then, then it's, it is areally eyeopening kind of a
thing.
Uh, so with za with that, Zack,um, what's your recommendation?
Zach Wilson (31:28):
Um, mine are mostly podcasts.
I'm actually, uh, I'm more of a,uh, an oral, uh, listener.
Um, there's, uh, there's acouple that are actually about,
uh, digital and sales, salesfunnel, mystery, um, conversion
rate experts and um, target, uh,I think it's called target our
(31:49):
experts, which is also about alot about the analytics side of
uh, uh, Google mop, optimize and, um, Google analytics, which
are, uh, mainstays for uspersonally.
And um, those are, those aregreat.
They're always, there's alwayslike a great anecdote, tips and
great stories and a lot of thehigh, high level things that
(32:09):
we've been talking about, uh,today, uh, in, in, in those, in
those specific podcasts.
And then, um, uh, yeah, so
Chris Bonney (32:19):
those are, those are a couple of mine.
Yeah.
All great stuff.
So as we wrap up today, and thishas been just a great
conversation, um, I just want togo around to each person.
Um, Dan, we'll start with you.
Uh, any other things that youwant to just share with folks,
um, and say, Hey, when it comesto this stuff, here's, I wanted
you to take away from today andtake with you.
(32:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think the, forme, the biggest thing is a lot
of what we're talking about is,uh, is when you really break it
down.
It's getting back to a lot ofthe basics.
Uh, I think it can be temptingfor people to get a little
carried away and get overwhelmedwith I'm okay, Oh, CRO, there's
this whole brand new way ofthinking that I have to now like
(33:07):
get on board.
Dan Ritzke (33:07):
And if I don't, I'm gonna get left behind.
And, um, and, and while it mightfeel that way, I think, uh, I
think a lot of what we'retalking about is just getting
back to the basics and, and, uh,creating really, really, uh,
simple, effective, uh, marketingcommunications.
I think Joe was one that saidit.
It's not, um, it is very much, Ithink important for, you know, a
website to, um, to kind of, uh,have all this stuff be top of
(33:31):
mind.
But, um, it's across the board.
I think it's all about making itreally simple for your, for your
customers, for your audience,and, uh, really understanding
them of, of what they're tryingto accomplish.
And, and how we as marketers canget them from point a to point B
and, and remove as much frictionas possible along the way.
So, uh, for me it all kind ofcomes down to that and uh, um,
(33:55):
and, and I, and I, and I hopepeople kind of understand it's
not as, as overwhelming as itmight seem cause it's really,
yeah, to me it's just a reminderof getting back to a lot of the
basics.
Joe Martin (34:06):
I'm going to go off good idea.
The basics that I usually breakit back down to are the two
fundamentals of business that Ifeel like we all heard as
children.
And then as we start companieswe just ignore it.
Number one, know yourself.
Number two, know your customer.
And we skipped over this.
Knowing the customer is where Iwant you to intimately know
that.
I want you to know what yourcustomer ate for dinner last
(34:27):
night.
Where did they go?
Why does it go there?
How many miles did they have tofeed?
What do they drive to go pick updinner?
How'd they pay for it?
Like the more you can know aboutthat and the more you understand
about where are your product orservice fits and how it can help
them the most.
So I'm going to second this ideaof getting back to basics.
Know yourself, know your costs.
Zach Wilson (34:47):
Yeah.
And just piggybacking off ofthat, once you, once you know
all of those things, you can,um, you can tactically
strategize against them, right?
Like, I mean, that's the, that'sthe actual executionary side of
it as you can.
Like Dan said, you can write acopy that's speaks to their
(35:08):
pains.
Uh, you can design and lay outpages that, uh, that, that, that
help them solve their problems.
So yeah, I mean, this, this,this idea of getting back to
basics is, is, is, is really,really, really important.
But you do need to also take itthat extra step and that extra
(35:29):
mile and be measuring, like, youhave to, you have to know what
you're looking at.
You can't just, you can't justgo into your, uh, your Shopify
site and say, Oh, I sold, youknow,$5,000 this month.
Right.
Like, it's not that, it's notthat simple.
(35:49):
Like, yeah, that's awesome.
You did, that's sweet.
But you could have sold 50,maybe, you know, or, um, you
know, we had a, uh, we, we referto this a lot.
We did a project last year.
Uh, this is, you'll love thiswhen Joe, we did a project last
year, um, mid, mid, mid lastyear for a, an organization and
(36:11):
they had a directive to, uh,collect some more first party
data, right?
Like pretty, pretty easy,seemingly.
Like they had, they had beencollecting first party data for,
I dunno, like three or fouryears.
They only had a few, you know, afew thousand records.
But we, when we went across thesite and sort of broke apart the
(36:32):
site and injected a bunch of CTA[inaudible] with, uh, with
well-formed copy and well-formed, um, a CTA copy and we took
what they had collected over thepast three years and we collect,
we doubled that in six weeks.
And so, eh, I mean it was these,these little things that you can
(36:56):
do.
And you know, the biggest thingthere was like, we gave them
[inaudible] the, uh, our client,the, the, uh, the tools and the
data to go back to there, um,the higher ups and say, Hey,
look what these guys are doing.
Look what we're doing now.
And th these, it's interestingtoo, cause we're all in client
(37:17):
services, right?
Like you need, you need peopleon the client side to advocate
for you.
So you, you need to give themthe tools to meet their
objectives, right?
Like they're, they're hiring youor they're hiring us or whomever
because they've got a problemand we've got to give them,
we've got to give them the, the,the information so that they can
(37:41):
go back to their, whoever theirbosses or whatever and say,
yeah, Hey boss, guess what?
I just solved our problem.
Here it is.
Here's the information, right?
So, so yes, so at the, at thecore of it, we've got to do all
these things and getting back tobasics and keeping it simple.
Um, and talking to ourgrandmother and putting it in in
(38:03):
the simplest of terms.
But you've gotta, you've gotta,you've gotta be measuring and
you've got to report on that.
And I, I, one other thing Ilearned this from, um, she's not
there anymore.
I think she's actually the CMOat American heart association
now, but she was the COO at athermos at the time.
And, um, she's giving a speechfor a AMA and she said, you
(38:28):
know, the problem with agenciesthese days are, and, and, and,
and marketing analysts are,you're trying report on too much
data, so work with your clients,work with your bosses.
And she said, don't track morethan whatever your KPIs are, but
don't track more than four KPIsat a time for any specific
(38:51):
project.
Anything else.
It's not data as in the problemthese days.
It's getting data drilled downto a point where you can meet
your Goss's goals, you can meetyour client's goals, or, um,
and, and there's something toactually simple to look at.
Again, she's like, there'snothing that drives me more than
someone working for me thatgives me this mountain of data
(39:13):
that then I have to go parsethrough and sift through and
find the answers I want.
That all whittled down into foursimple reportable elements.
And it can, you know, it can beanything can be click through it
, it can be engagement, it canbe anything, but whatever,
whatever project or engagementthat you're working on, simplify
it, simplify it for yourself andsimplify it for your client.
(39:35):
Because if you can look at justfour things and report on those
four things, then you havesomething to work for.
They have something to work forand it's, it's small and it's
tactical and it's a digestible,right?
So that's uh, that's, that's mytakeaway from a[inaudible]
today.
Chris Bonney (39:54):
Yeah, that's great stuff guys.
I really excited about what wetalked about today on the
episode and want to spend aspecial thank you to Joe and Dan
for joining us today on the webmarketing insights podcast with
Gullo solutions.
Me and Zach, we'll see you nexttime.
Appreciate y'all tuning in.
I'd love to have you subscribe,uh, below on YouTube and look
(40:17):
forward to seeing you all again.
Thanks so much.
Hi everybody.
Thanks for checking out thepodcast today.
Uh, go to Gullo solutions.com tolearn more about us.
Subscribe to our newsletter.
Uh, also, if you can hitsubscribe on our channel here on
YouTube, uh, that would be greatas well.
Hi everybody.
Thanks for joining us today.
I'm Chris with Gullo solutionsand this is the web of marketing
insights podcast.
Very special episode today.
Zach and I have a couple ofgreat guests that we're just
super excited to have with us.
One is Dan Ritzke from third actmarketing.
Dan, thanks for being with us.
(00:32):
And Joe.
Uh, we have Joe Martin fromMartin creative.
Happy to have you here.
Joe, thanks for joining us.
Joe Martin (00:38):
Does anyone really ever have Joe Martin?
All right, we'll go with that.
Let's go with it.
Chris Bonney (00:45):
Appreciate it.
So we're here to talk abouttoday a storytelling, digital
marketing conversion rateoptimization, covering a lot of
ground.
And how did the, how do thesethings overlap and how as a
marketer listening to thispodcast, how can you know what's
important to take away fromthis?
If you haven't heard ofconversion rate optimization,
(01:07):
then this is a perfect podcastfor you because it is a very
important topic as a marketer toknow.
If you are familiar with thatand aren't sure maybe what your
next steps are, today's podcastis perfect for you as well.
So want to make sure we backthis out and just, um, Zach, I
want to kick it over to you andsay for those that are just on
the podcast saying, you know,I've heard of CRO, I know what
(01:28):
it is, but can you just kind offill me in on what it is and
what it isn't as a marketer?
Zach Wilson (01:35):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So what we defined conversionrate optimization is a couple
things.
For a typical web user, it'ssomething as trivial as
engagement, right?
You're bringing someone to apage and you want them to do
something that can be literallyread, that can be click on a
(01:58):
button, that can be fill out alead generation form that can be
purchase a product and go intothe purchase funnel.
So there's there, there's somevery high level terms that we
break these things down are downas in the science of all those
(02:19):
things is actually conversionrate optimization.
And what we wanted to try anddissect today a little bit are
what is conversion rateoptimization one two, because it
means something different toeverybody.
How do you, how do you talk topeople about conversion rate
optimization?
Because when we talked aboutconversion rate optimization and
(02:42):
say that, or CRO, people's eyesjust glaze over and we lose
them.
So never use that term if you'retalking with someone, a
prospective client, that'snumber one.
And um, and then too like Chrisalluded is, is what are the,
what are the important aspectsof conversion Optor optimization
(03:03):
to, um, to marketers and thepeople that are actually
implementing these things.
So that's, that's, those are thekind of the ideas that we've
been tossing around and that'swhy we bought, brought in, uh,
Joe and Dan to try and pluckthese things apart with us
today.
Chris Bonney (03:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
That's perfect.
Uh, Joe, I want to kick it overto you and can you just let
folks that haven't seen you, uh,speak yet or, or seen you on a
podcast yet, uh, talk about, youknow, your background a little
bit and what's led you to focuson this conversion rate
optimization thing and why it'sso important and something as
(03:39):
marketers that we really want topay attention to.
Joe Martin (03:43):
Yeah.
I started off as a web developerin the field, just learning how
to code websites.
From there I went to school fordesign after design school and
it started to start my owncompany.
And it's there that all of asudden I think anyone who starts
a company or even freelancers,you start to realize just how
much more is involved inbuilding a website in terms of
even communication with aclient, invoicing everything you
(04:05):
need to get across to do if youhave people that you're working
with, you payroll and taxes,insurance.
So started doing all that.
And uh, as I was building up, Ireally heavily got into the
sales and the marketing side andI started to realize just how
important copy was in thoseregards and that what you say is
so very important.
And for a while I actually feltlike I wasn't doing companies'
(04:28):
justice because I would designthem the site and then say,
here, go put in all your copywhen really it should have been,
Hey, what do you want to say?
And then we'll design and thesite around it.
Because what we really want fromthe site is it to convert it.
We want it to actually have youget new customers.
And I think that's what makes itso important these days is that
this is, this is all we'retrying to do.
(04:49):
When you spend money on AdWordsor SEO, you're just trying to
get people to become customers.
Well, we kind of lose sight ofthis idea of, Oh, we're just
trying to get them to ourwebsite.
It's like, no, no, no, we needto get them there.
But then we need to convertthem.
We need to make them take somekind of action and using the
data, the analytics behind it.
This is CRO is the future.
(05:09):
This is where it's headed.
Any company that's not lookingat conversion rate optimization
is already behind.
Chris Bonney (05:16):
Oh, those are great insights.
And Dan, I want to kick it overto you based on what Joe said.
He said something aboutmessaging and I think it's a
great point to say it's onething to design a website, but
what are you building it for?
What do you want it to do andhow are you going to say that?
So just can you just talk alittle bit about your
background?
I know, you know, you're, you'rea marketing, positioning,
messaging, you know, uh, aconsultant that works with
(05:39):
clients all the time and you'veseen a wide spectrum of people
and companies that have maybebeen misguided in the way that
they're thinking about the worldof marketing.
Is it features or benefits or isit about actually the emotional
connection that we're trying tomake with people?
Um, and how does that toconverting somebody on your
(05:59):
website, cause it feels likesuch a process workflow based
thing, but to Joe's point, um,messaging and how you see what
you're saying is so important.
So can you just fill us in onyour background a little bit,
why you think storytelling issuch an integral part to what we
do, um, from an emotional driven, um, marketing and conversions?
Dan Ritzke (06:21):
Yeah, definitely.
Um, so my background, uh, mostof my career I spent working in
advertising.
Uh, I worked for, uh, adagencies here in Chicago for a
little over 11 years.
Um, and, uh, for as long as Ican remember, to me, great
marketing, effective marketingis always synonymous with great
(06:42):
storytelling.
Um, you know, a lot of times Ithink, uh, you know, small
businesses all the way up tofortune 500 and 100 companies
are kind of fall into a trap of,um, getting into a habit of, you
know, uh, using their marketingas, as kind of just a Bullhorn
to, uh, communicate, uh,features and benefits and, you
(07:05):
know, as a company why we thinkwe're great and why our product
is great and how we're differentand better than our competitors.
And so, you know, we get so usedto that over time that, uh, um,
uh, about a year ago I decidedto start my own company and, uh,
to focus in on, uh, consultingand strategy and storytelling to
really help companies.
(07:26):
Uh, for me it's really justgetting back to the basics of,
of what makes, uh, um, uh,communicating, uh, effectively,
uh, really comes down to withconnecting with your audience.
And, and for me, the best way todo that is getting back to the
basics of, of, of reallyunderstanding your audience.
(07:46):
Um, uh, figuring out what it isthat they, they want.
What is it that they need?
Uh, figuring out as a, as acompany, if you have a product
or a service, how was thatsolving a problem for your
audience?
And getting really, really clearon, on, you know, it's not about
me, it's not about, uh, youknow, me as the business owner,
it's about my audience.
And, um, and the way that I'mgoing to connect with them is by
(08:07):
, uh, is by telling really thebest story, uh, that I can,
that, that they're going to wantto pay attention to.
It's going to get theirattention and, uh, and it's
going to keep their attention.
And that's, you know, that's thevery first step to getting
someone to convert or to takesome kind of an action.
Um, you know, you're never gonnabe able to do that unless you
really are able to kind of hookthem in.
(08:29):
Um, and, and for me, I saw ahuge, huge gap kind of, um, in,
in, in the marketplace of, of alot of companies that are not
really not really doing that,um, real effectively.
And it's, uh, a big missedopportunity.
And so I think, you know,storytelling strategy is really
synonymous and, and just kind ofpart of kind of a CRO mindset.
(08:51):
And so one of the things that Ilove that, uh, Daniel touched on
there is this idea of you needto talk in the,
Joe Martin (08:56):
in the voice of the customer.
And when I talk about this beingkind of the future of what I see
is one of the things that Ithink I love about conversion
optimization is it forces you tobe empathetic.
That as a company you reallyneed to get into the mind of
your customer and understandwhat are they going through?
How can I really help them?
And then it's forcing you tothink more about an individual
and less about the dollars,which is just for me.
(09:17):
I think that's the biggest thingthat we're, we're bringing a
little humanity back intomarketing here.
Chris Bonney (09:23):
No, that's excellent.
Absolutely excellent points.
Um, and, and Joe, I know thatyou have, uh, done some research
and some, uh, original data thatyou have and, and, and worked
with companies on this and youalso have some points to look at
and how, you know, I think it'sa, you know, five tips to, to do
(09:46):
this better.
So before we get into that,cause I do want to, um, can you
talk about what the, you know,wha what the data is saying it.
Do you have examples from yourdata as to why this is important
or what, you know, what someconversion optimization success
stories might look like,something like that.
Joe Martin (10:07):
Yeah, I can run through a couple of them.
And I guess the first thing tounderstand is conversion rate
optimization happens and everyin multiple places, cause it can
happen inside of an email.
It can happen on a website.
It can happen during a salescall that every single one of
those components can beconversions.
And so we're kind of looking atthings overall.
But when we talk specificallyabout a website, we can use
(10:28):
something as simple as ABtesting and AB testing.
If you're not, you're familiarwith it as simple as saying this
or that.
[inaudible] that's it.
And letting people choose thisor that and then seeing what
happens.
And so this is one of the thingsthat I offer for companies is
we'll actually go on theirwebsite[inaudible] suggestions
and run the AB test for them tofigure out which one converts
(10:49):
higher.
And it's amazing how smallchanges can have such a
monumental impact.
[inaudible] uh, there's acompany we're working with in
Chicago.
We rewrote the first sentence ofthe website, which should
usually be your unique valueproposition.
Let's people know who you are,what you do, why they want to
work with you.
We rewrote that in their call toaction and we saw 35% increase
(11:13):
in transactions with a Floridacompany I worked with.
We changed two words on her site.
All we did was change the callto action, the words on it.
And she's like 28% increase insession value.
And for a different company herein Chicago, they're a pizza tour
in Chicago, which you've nevertaken a pizza tour where the
(11:34):
hell is wrong with you?
Go take a pizza tour a but forthem, absolutely.
I ended up just, yeah, we just,that we rearrange the order, the
tours on their home page.
So instead of it looking likethe price was going up from 89
to 119 to one 59, we switchedit.
So actually put the mostexpensive tour first.
(11:55):
And so it looked like the priceswere actually going down as you
looked at more of the tours andthat ended up seeing a 40%
uplift in revenue that just,that this is what we're
optimizing for, that we're nottrying to optimize a trick,
we're trying to just make thingseasier for you to understand so
you can really understand thevalue of what you're getting.
Chris Bonney (12:13):
[inaudible] you know, um, just something that
just dawned to me, Joe's, you'retalking about this and your
background as a designer too.
So we've talked about copy, wetalked about storytelling a
little bit in calls to action,but what about just design, uh,
you know, have a page in.
How important is that, if atall?
I, it feels like it probably is,but can you just talk a little
(12:35):
bit about that in his, or even away to maybe talk about that
hierarchically, you know, copyversus design, you know, versus
page flow.
I mean, what, you know, thepsychology of the user, how do
those things play into, intothat?
Joe Martin (12:50):
That's where we talked about a little bit
earlier that I feel like a lotof companies, especially web
companies like to do this thingwhere they just find a template
online, move around some stuff,handed over to a client and say,
here, plug in your information.
Zach Wilson (13:03):
When really they're , they're just guessing it,
which should be on that homepage.
And what a lot of sites lack isa sales narrative.
They don't, they don'tunderstand actually how they're
taking someone through this,that if you start to look at
your website as a real person,you get to control everything in
that person says what they'rewearing, what they look like.
You get to dress up your sales,they can say what they need to
(13:25):
and make sure that they'resaying the right things at the
right time.
And that design aspect should behelping to compliment.
Is it, I don't want you to picka picture because you thought it
looked like a good picture.
I want you to pick that picturebecause people in that pizza
tour wondered how much pizza amI going to eat?
And you can show them in apicture how much pizza they get
in one setting.
If we can use images and designto address objections and
(13:47):
provide more information and notjust, might just show pretty
pictures.
Dan Ritzke (13:53):
Yeah.
And actually one, one thing I'lladd to that too is, um, you
know, I, I've never, um, youknow, I, I don't have a design
background that's never beenanything that, uh, uh, that
I've, I've focused on.
I've always, you know, partneredwith really, you know, smart,
talented people.
But one thing that I do help alot of my clients with is, is to
understand, for example, yourhomepage.
(14:14):
You know, someone who's gettingthere for the first time.
As a business owner, there's awhole lot of stuff that we want
people to know about, whether wewant to communicate a lot of
stuff about[inaudible] ourproduct and our people and our
history and everything thatmakes us great.
The stuff that you know, that weknow inside.
Um, but you know, a lot of timesthat is not the stuff that is
(14:35):
going to convert those, thoseprospects when they get to your
sites.
So you have to kind of, again,it's a, comes back to what Joe
was saying about empathy.
I mean, you have to reallyunderstand kind of the mindset
of the person coming to yoursite and knowing I'm gonna, you
know, give them just enough toget them to take that next step,
whatever that next step is.
Um, and, and there's a bunch of,you know, a bunch of stuff that
(14:57):
you're going to want to shareand you're going to have content
and other places on your sitewhere, you know, we're, uh, you
know, has a PA had time in aplace where people will go, you
know, seek out that information.
But, uh, when it comes to theexperience and, uh, you know,
uh, the, you know, that stuffthat the customers are
interacting with, um, you know,keep it simple, keep it, uh, you
know, not a ton of copy, noteven a ton of design, really
(15:19):
just, it's, it's giving themjust the information they need
to, uh, uh, to take that nextstep.
And that's, um, you know, whatthat next step is, is a big part
of the strategy of, of just, uh,uh, keeping it simple and just
literally your job is to kind ofget that person from point a to
point B.
(15:39):
Sorry,
Zach Wilson (15:39):
G rated.
It's simple, stupid kiss.
Mmm.
So on.
On that note, piggybacking offof Joe and Dan, I heard this, uh
, interesting analogy justrecently about empathy and sales
and putting yourself insomeone's shoes with regard to
CRO.
(16:00):
And[inaudible] really hit homefor me because I was, I've been,
I'm sure all of us have been onboth sides of this.
Once I tell it, it's the tradeshow analogy, right?
You're walking down, you'rewalking, you're on the exhibit
floor of a trade show, you'rewalking down one of the aisles
and you're looking, you'relooking, you're looking, and
(16:23):
you've got all of thesevultures, right?
Trying to jump out at you andyou're just like, wait, all I
want to do is see what you'redoing to see if it fits me
right.
And, and the, the parallel for awebsite[inaudible] and along
this line of empathy andbuilding pages or sites that
(16:44):
convert are having this empathyand not being a vulture, right?
So the vulture is the website,as Joe just said, is that that
pace sign up for demo all overthe site and just jumping down
your throat when they reallyhaven't, when you really haven't
(17:04):
done anything to lead the userto down that path, to really get
them to do that demo or sign upfor the free product.
And it's, and it's about, it'sabout that journey and giving
them little samples and nuggetsso that they can understand and
learn and take a peek and figureout if they want to demo or try
(17:29):
the free product or evenpurchase.
So it's, it's, it is a lot aboutunderstanding, putting yourself
in your, uh, your usercustomer's shoes, building that
empathy.
But, uh, you know, again, I'lljust go out on record and don't
be a vulture like that, youknow, try and try and be a
little bit more subtle and alittle bit more tactical about
(17:51):
what you're trying to do.
So, um, you can try and teasethe user a bit.
Joe Martin (17:58):
Yeah.
My, my theory there is thatthere's only probably three to
five things.
Do you need to say to someone toget them to take that next
action now?
Yes, there's absolutelyvariances and if you're trying
to sell something, there'sprobably certain things you'd
say to sell the price pointmatters.
But it comes down to to thoseone or two sentences in both
Zack and Dan hit on this thatDan said, person Zach said, user
(18:22):
and thinking singularly is sucha big component of it and it's
just learn how to sell onecustomer or my favorite Claude
Hopkins quotes, learn how tosell the one before you try to
sell the thousands, figure itall the way out and that you
want to say so much.
And one of the things that a lotof companies do is they put on
their site, they start theirsentences with we, and I'm sure
you probably see this a lot.
(18:43):
This is what we do.
We do this.
Then they refer to themselvesinto the third person just to
change it up so they don't haveto refer to themselves as weak.
And then in the next sentence,it started with the word us.
All the same things.
Start those sentences with theword you instead.
And it's this nice little subtrick that all of a sudden you
start writing the sentence forthe customer.
You write it in the way thatthey're going to read it instead
(19:04):
of writing and how you want tosay it.
Chris Bonney (19:08):
Know.
That's great.
It's a great point in Dan, Iwant to kick this over to you to
just layer on top of this, thepsychology between the implicit
explicit and philosophicalaspects of storytelling and how,
you know, however you want totalk it through, whether you do
it anecdotally or just talk itthrough.
But you know, I think that'sreally layers nicely under what
Joe's talking about is, you know, uh, the, in the mind of the
(19:31):
user, the customer, whatever wewant to say.
There are these three things atplay and so would you mind
giving us a thumbnail of that?
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean I, how much time do wehave?
I could, I could probably talkfor a couple of hours on this.
This is sort of like the stuff Inerd out on, right?
Um, so yes, storytelling is, um,you know, there's an art and a
(19:53):
science to it.
Dan Ritzke (19:54):
Um, and, and all of it's rooted in, you know, 2000
years of, of evidence thatstorytelling is the best way to,
uh, to communicate with someoneand to get their attention and
to captivate them and to, um,and to get them to sort of
forget all this stuff that, youknow, distracts us, um, every
(20:14):
day of, every second of everyday.
Really.
Um, and so it's kind of, yeah,it's the art and a science.
So the, it's really interesting.
The, you know, the human brainhas a couple dominant functions.
One is like, just to help ussurvive and, and to, uh, keep us
from, you know, burning too manycalories, whether it's, uh, you
know, reading a book or, uh, youknow, watching a movie or, um,
(20:38):
literally, uh, you know, doingsomething at work.
We're exhausted sometimes.
And, and it's only because we'vebeen thinking about stuff.
And, um, and so, you know, thesecond we are, you know,
communicating a message ortelling a story or, uh, you
know, talking about a product ora service and that it starts to
get confusing or it starts toget complicated or we're maybe
(21:00):
all over the place.
Um, or it's not like the stuffwe were just talking about.
It's not written about ouraudience or for our audience.
Um, people catch onto thatreally quickly and they tune it
out.
And it's almost a subconsciousthing that, you know, their
brains are telling them this isnot worth our time.
Like we should, we should moveon to something different.
(21:21):
Um, and so that's, that's sortof the, that's the kind of the
science of it.
And then the art of storytellingis, um, is, is, uh, sort of the
practice of keeping you, youknow, your message as, you know,
as simple as you can possiblyget it, use the fewest amount of
words.
I mean, it's, it, it is an artform to tell a story in a single
(21:43):
headline or in a few sentences.
Um, and so when you can do that,it's the best of both worlds.
You're, you know, you're notmaking people work too hard.
Uh, you're communicating thatmessage.
It's about your audience.
Um, and, and you know, those areall the things you need if
you're trying to, uh, really,really quickly and efficiently,
uh, uh, convert people.
(22:04):
Yeah.
Joe Martin (22:04):
So when I go, when I go through that with people and
we talk about making it simpleand getting the phrasing down
correctly, that Dan, I knowyou've had this challenge of
trying to work people into it.
Mine is always, I make themexplain it to my grandmother and
I want you to tell me in a waythat my grandmother understands
what you're saying and what youdo.
She doesn't understand it.
We're out.
[inaudible] too complicated.
Chris Bonney (22:26):
Yeah, no, it's a great, it's a great point.
And I want to get Zach's opinionon something.
Uh, Joe, I think you did know ifwe're going back to the CRO, so
what we've talked about so faris saying, here's what CRO is,
here's the value of it, here'show it's applied.
Here's how storytelling andcopywriting and CTHS design even
(22:47):
are a part of it.
But let's get just superpractical.
Are there things that you cantell people or you do tell
people about CRO that they canjust take away today and uh, and
apply.
And then I'd like to, you know,maybe do a couple and then I'd
like to get Zach's opinion onthat as well on what you're
saying.
Yeah.
[inaudible]
Zach Wilson (23:06):
yeah.
Well, let's take a page out ofwhat everybody is saying here.
Um, and I think there's beensome very practical advice given
, uh, and, and we haven't saidthe star clients, but I think,
you know, explain it to me.
Like I'm, your grandmother is agreat one.
Um, and that needs to be put on,um, on a page for sure.
(23:30):
Uh, practical, uh, advice.
Tip number two is, um, is, islike Dan said, is keep it
simple.
You know, keep these, keep thepage simple, keep, uh, keep
everything very simple and easy.
And with that should be fast ofcourse.
Um, and then from a moreexecutionary step, and this is
(23:54):
something I know Joe does and wedo as well in terms of how
you're looking at analyzingthese things.
It doesn't have to be, and I've,I've actually read a lot of
people on how they do this.
It doesn't, the, the testing,these things doesn't have to be
super complicated.
Come up with a couple ofdifferent hypothesis as to eh,
(24:17):
take a page, for example, yourhomepage or a key landing page.
Take a couple hypotheses of, ofwhat is what users are doing and
make a couple, make a couplechanges and pass them over to
your web team and see whathappens over a small course of
time.
You know, if you've got a lot oftraffic, a couple of weeks, if
you don't have a lot of traffic,it might be a couple of months.
(24:39):
But if it's, if a page[inaudible] uh, or uh, uh, an
inter page landing page or yourhomepage is not doing what you
want, change it and don't wait.
Joe Martin (24:52):
Okay.
That's okay.
[inaudible] that they even knowif it's doing what they want it
to.
There's yes.
I think a lot of people go intoit and they don't understand the
end result they're trying toget.
There's always one of the firstthings we need to know what we
want to measure before westarted looking for the data to
figure out.
We're trying to measure.
So getting, getting some ofthose other things in place.
Uh, to add into your bulletpoints.
(25:13):
Mmm.
A few that I always promote arethings that I've seen on a lot
of sites is this idea that youneed to write sales copy instead
of bullshit.
Yes.
Don't give me the crap aboutyour company.
Actually write sales copy.
I want you to address someone'sobjections, which are their
reasons.
They're saying no to buying.
I want you to touch on theirfears.
(25:33):
Why are they afraid to buy fromyou?
Talk about those things.
Talk about more in that phrase.
That's everyone.
Write sales copy instead of BS.
Number two is to proudly displayyour unique value proposition is
Dan just talked about trying toget it down to one sentence and
one sentence should tell me whatyou do.
So my grandmother understands itand then tells me why I want to
(25:55):
work with you, why I want to buywhat you have.
Now, one of the best ones I'veseen as a company in San
Francisco called Dylan's toursand their unique value
proposition and says many bikesand mini bikes and electric bike
tours to help you see the mosticonic sites of San Francisco in
one day.
I know what you can do, mini bus, electric bike touring.
(26:16):
I know why I want to take thisbecause I want to see it and you
can get it down to that.
You were in fantastic shape andthat should be the first
sentence on your website causewe want to, we want to lower
someone's guard when they getthere.
And we talked a little bitearlier about throwing too much
at you, the vultures justjumping at you.
The first thing someone wants toknow is what the hell do you do
and why do I even want this?
So probably displayed that UVP.
(26:38):
Number two.
Yes, it's proper call toactions.
Understand what next someonewants to take at that point.
Uh, one site that I saw online,they had about five different
items you could add to the cart.
[inaudible] for them was avisitor badge for three 99 and
another one was uh, I think likea stencil set or something for
(26:58):
eight 99.
And the third one was a 79,000,$999 machine.
You're not adding an$80,000machine to your cart.
She's the right call, therecharter to talk to a
representative.
So you use the right call toaction.
So if you are writing styles,copy instead of DX, if you have
that UVP out there, if you'reusing proper CTA is the only
(27:20):
other thing you need to cover.
Lead magnets, which is justsomething to capture someone
when they get there, give themsomething in exchange for their
email address.
You're in good shape.
Final tip.
Okay, keep listening.
It doesn't stop.
We know, I think Dan does,especially Zach.
I know you're not Chris.
We all do this.
It never stops.
There's no, there's no pointthat we, we finish a project and
(27:40):
we go[inaudible] cool.
It's done.
Never happens.
It's always evolving.
Yeah, great points.
Really good points.
And so I thought maybe we coulddo now is have sort of a
lightning round of things.
Chris Bonney (27:52):
I'll start it out, but just, you know, within the
topics that we've covered today,uh, each of us may be go around,
we'll go Joe, Dan, Zack, I'llstart and just maybe give one
website, maybe two or a blog ora person to follow, um, that,
that I think people can takeaway.
Maybe they didn't, haven't heardof it, and they want to learn
(28:13):
more.
And it's a place that we canguide them.
Places that we've learnedourselves.
I'll start, you talked aboutcopywriting, a sales,
copywriting, so copy hackers, Idon't know if you guys are
familiar with, right?
Just the best.
Uh, and if you don't know whocopy hackers is and you're in a
small to midsize business andyou're a marketer and you're
wondering what we mean when wesay write marketing and sales
copy, that's an amazing place tostart.
(28:36):
Um, so I'll throw that one outbased on what you said.
Joe Martin (28:40):
Joe said you want to share your, yeah, I have second
copy hackers folder.
That would have been my secondchoice.
And I've actually had the chanceto meet Joanna Wiebe a couple of
times and just amazing.
It just seems amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, and I met her at theconversion XL conference down in
Austin, which is my big one I'mgoing to push is a site called
(29:01):
conversion xl.com.
And they have an agency wherethey actually do conversion
optimization, but then they'rereally big about teaching,
paying it forward.
And they host an amazingconference every year that's
coming up the first week inApril of 2020 this year.
[inaudible] I'll be there, comehang out, let's go learn
conversion stuff.
I've learned so much fromconversion XL, from their online
(29:23):
courses, their blogs and thenalso going to the conferences.
Yeah.
So yeah, I would um, throw out,um, I think Joe and I talked
about this one time and I tendto tell a lot of people, uh, uh,
building a StoryBrand is areally great, uh,
Dan Ritzke (29:42):
um, I have, my gosh, it's, it's a, it's a whole
company now.
They used to.
It's a, Donald Miller is areally brilliant guy.
Got his start in screenwriting.
I mean he was an author, hewrote books and then wrote a
book building a StoryBrand,which is all about, uh,
storytelling and marketing.
And, uh, really just gettingback to the basics of a lot of
the stuff that we just, um, wejust talked about.
And, uh, and so it's really agreat book.
(30:04):
And, and their whole, you know,website and company that they've
kind of built around it is just,uh, uh, great for businesses of
any size.
If you're a small business orjust getting sort of introduced
to this in a world of, ofmarketing and conversion rate
optimization.
Uh, it's great.
And then, you know, even forsort of larger, well-established
(30:26):
, uh, brands is such a greatsort of like get back to the
basics, um, uh, kind of, uh, anexperience at a website and a
company and, um, and it's a, agreat resource for people, you
know, and I would, uh, I woulddefinitely second that one for
me.
Chris Bonney (30:42):
What I thought was the most interesting about that
is that there is a framework,right?
It's not a formula.
It's not formulaic that you canjust throw against something and
everything's gonna work, but toread that book and understand
what they do, and is it sevensteps, I think, um, of telling
the hero story and who needs tobe involved in the hero's story
in, are you the company, thehero?
(31:04):
No, you're the guide.
And I think that in and ofitself is just sort of a
paradigm shift that if youhaven't thought about it that
way, right.
Um, uh, then, then it's, it is areally eyeopening kind of a
thing.
Uh, so with za with that, Zack,um, what's your recommendation?
Zach Wilson (31:28):
Um, mine are mostly podcasts.
I'm actually, uh, I'm more of a,uh, an oral, uh, listener.
Um, there's, uh, there's acouple that are actually about,
uh, digital and sales, salesfunnel, mystery, um, conversion
rate experts and um, target, uh,I think it's called target our
(31:49):
experts, which is also about alot about the analytics side of
uh, uh, Google mop, optimize and, um, Google analytics, which
are, uh, mainstays for uspersonally.
And um, those are, those aregreat.
They're always, there's alwayslike a great anecdote, tips and
great stories and a lot of thehigh, high level things that
(32:09):
we've been talking about, uh,today, uh, in, in, in those, in
those specific podcasts.
And then, um, uh, yeah, so
Chris Bonney (32:19):
those are, those are a couple of mine.
Yeah.
All great stuff.
So as we wrap up today, and thishas been just a great
conversation, um, I just want togo around to each person.
Um, Dan, we'll start with you.
Uh, any other things that youwant to just share with folks,
um, and say, Hey, when it comesto this stuff, here's, I wanted
you to take away from today andtake with you.
(32:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think the, forme, the biggest thing is a lot
of what we're talking about is,uh, is when you really break it
down.
It's getting back to a lot ofthe basics.
Uh, I think it can be temptingfor people to get a little
carried away and get overwhelmedwith I'm okay, Oh, CRO, there's
this whole brand new way ofthinking that I have to now like
(33:07):
get on board.
Dan Ritzke (33:07):
And if I don't, I'm gonna get left behind.
And, um, and, and while it mightfeel that way, I think, uh, I
think a lot of what we'retalking about is just getting
back to the basics and, and, uh,creating really, really, uh,
simple, effective, uh, marketingcommunications.
I think Joe was one that saidit.
It's not, um, it is very much, Ithink important for, you know, a
website to, um, to kind of, uh,have all this stuff be top of
(33:31):
mind.
But, um, it's across the board.
I think it's all about making itreally simple for your, for your
customers, for your audience,and, uh, really understanding
them of, of what they're tryingto accomplish.
And, and how we as marketers canget them from point a to point B
and, and remove as much frictionas possible along the way.
So, uh, for me it all kind ofcomes down to that and uh, um,
(33:55):
and, and I, and I, and I hopepeople kind of understand it's
not as, as overwhelming as itmight seem cause it's really,
yeah, to me it's just a reminderof getting back to a lot of the
basics.
Joe Martin (34:06):
I'm going to go off good idea.
The basics that I usually breakit back down to are the two
fundamentals of business that Ifeel like we all heard as
children.
And then as we start companieswe just ignore it.
Number one, know yourself.
Number two, know your customer.
And we skipped over this.
Knowing the customer is where Iwant you to intimately know
that.
I want you to know what yourcustomer ate for dinner last
(34:27):
night.
Where did they go?
Why does it go there?
How many miles did they have tofeed?
What do they drive to go pick updinner?
How'd they pay for it?
Like the more you can know aboutthat and the more you understand
about where are your product orservice fits and how it can help
them the most.
So I'm going to second this ideaof getting back to basics.
Know yourself, know your costs.
Zach Wilson (34:47):
Yeah.
And just piggybacking off ofthat, once you, once you know
all of those things, you can,um, you can tactically
strategize against them, right?
Like, I mean, that's the, that'sthe actual executionary side of
it as you can.
Like Dan said, you can write acopy that's speaks to their
(35:08):
pains.
Uh, you can design and lay outpages that, uh, that, that, that
help them solve their problems.
So yeah, I mean, this, this,this idea of getting back to
basics is, is, is, is really,really, really important.
But you do need to also take itthat extra step and that extra
(35:29):
mile and be measuring, like, youhave to, you have to know what
you're looking at.
You can't just, you can't justgo into your, uh, your Shopify
site and say, Oh, I sold, youknow,$5,000 this month.
Right.
Like, it's not that, it's notthat simple.
(35:49):
Like, yeah, that's awesome.
You did, that's sweet.
But you could have sold 50,maybe, you know, or, um, you
know, we had a, uh, we, we referto this a lot.
We did a project last year.
Uh, this is, you'll love thiswhen Joe, we did a project last
year, um, mid, mid, mid lastyear for a, an organization and
(36:11):
they had a directive to, uh,collect some more first party
data, right?
Like pretty, pretty easy,seemingly.
Like they had, they had beencollecting first party data for,
I dunno, like three or fouryears.
They only had a few, you know, afew thousand records.
But we, when we went across thesite and sort of broke apart the
(36:32):
site and injected a bunch of CTA[inaudible] with, uh, with
well-formed copy and well-formed, um, a CTA copy and we took
what they had collected over thepast three years and we collect,
we doubled that in six weeks.
And so, eh, I mean it was these,these little things that you can
(36:56):
do.
And you know, the biggest thingthere was like, we gave them
[inaudible] the, uh, our client,the, the, uh, the tools and the
data to go back to there, um,the higher ups and say, Hey,
look what these guys are doing.
Look what we're doing now.
And th these, it's interestingtoo, cause we're all in client
(37:17):
services, right?
Like you need, you need peopleon the client side to advocate
for you.
So you, you need to give themthe tools to meet their
objectives, right?
Like they're, they're hiring youor they're hiring us or whomever
because they've got a problemand we've got to give them,
we've got to give them the, the,the information so that they can
(37:41):
go back to their, whoever theirbosses or whatever and say,
yeah, Hey boss, guess what?
I just solved our problem.
Here it is.
Here's the information, right?
So, so yes, so at the, at thecore of it, we've got to do all
these things and getting back tobasics and keeping it simple.
Um, and talking to ourgrandmother and putting it in in
(38:03):
the simplest of terms.
But you've gotta, you've gotta,you've gotta be measuring and
you've got to report on that.
And I, I, one other thing Ilearned this from, um, she's not
there anymore.
I think she's actually the CMOat American heart association
now, but she was the COO at athermos at the time.
And, um, she's giving a speechfor a AMA and she said, you
(38:28):
know, the problem with agenciesthese days are, and, and, and,
and marketing analysts are,you're trying report on too much
data, so work with your clients,work with your bosses.
And she said, don't track morethan whatever your KPIs are, but
don't track more than four KPIsat a time for any specific
(38:51):
project.
Anything else.
It's not data as in the problemthese days.
It's getting data drilled downto a point where you can meet
your Goss's goals, you can meetyour client's goals, or, um,
and, and there's something toactually simple to look at.
Again, she's like, there'snothing that drives me more than
someone working for me thatgives me this mountain of data
(39:13):
that then I have to go parsethrough and sift through and
find the answers I want.
That all whittled down into foursimple reportable elements.
And it can, you know, it can beanything can be click through it
, it can be engagement, it canbe anything, but whatever,
whatever project or engagementthat you're working on, simplify
it, simplify it for yourself andsimplify it for your client.
(39:35):
Because if you can look at justfour things and report on those
four things, then you havesomething to work for.
They have something to work forand it's, it's small and it's
tactical and it's a digestible,right?
So that's uh, that's, that's mytakeaway from a[inaudible]
today.
Chris Bonney (39:54):
Yeah, that's great stuff guys.
I really excited about what wetalked about today on the
episode and want to spend aspecial thank you to Joe and Dan
for joining us today on the webmarketing insights podcast with
Gullo solutions.
Me and Zach, we'll see you nexttime.
Appreciate y'all tuning in.
I'd love to have you subscribe,uh, below on YouTube and look
(40:17):
forward to seeing you all again.
Thanks so much.
Hi everybody.
Thanks for checking out thepodcast today.
Uh, go to Gullo solutions.com tolearn more about us.
Subscribe to our newsletter.
Uh, also, if you can hitsubscribe on our channel here on
YouTube, uh, that would be greatas well.
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