How It Started v How It’s Going: 3 years of TWT

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Welcome to the Westminster Tradition, where we
unpack lessons for the publicservice.
I'm Danielle Elston, ManagingDirector of Good Government
Advisory, and I've been allowedto drive the pod today.
Pea plates.
I am joined today on the landsof the Ghana people by my fellow
recovering public servants,Alison Lloyd Reich, Managing
Director of the Good TravelGroup.

(00:24):
Hello, Danielle.
And Caroline Crozabalo.

SPEAKER_02 (00:29):
Hello, Danielle, and we promise not to undermine your
leadership anymore.

SPEAKER_01 (00:33):
We do.
Look, I think this is going tobe pretty loosey-goosey, girls.
Today is a very self-indulgenttrip down memory lane, and some
of it's on request fromlisteners, in the sense that to
answer some of the questions,they ask us a lot about the pod
and making it and ourreflections on it.
So one of the things I tried todo, and then I will tell you
gave up, is I tried to scrollback our group chat for three

(00:57):
years.
We will never be trying thatagain.
So I'm going to rely on mymemory, which is not actually as
good as I thought it was.
So if I remember correctly,those early commission hearings
for the RoboDet were in lateSeptember 2022, and they kind of
start showing grabs on the newsand radio of the evidence, and
that gets us in.
Us and actually a group chat ofanother kind of four or five

(01:19):
nerds, which I had forgottenabout.
Oh, yeah.
One of whom wasn't very well.
And as a part of the cheer-upprocess of being good like
colleagues, we decided to kindof find her the best grabs and
updates.
And then we discovered thatthose blessed nerds at the Royal
Commission were not only justlike live streaming it, but you
could get home at the end of theday and lie down and watch the

(01:42):
day's proceedings of an evening.
And it was more gripping thanany of us kind of, I suppose,
expected.
I mean, we've all done a lot ofwork on these kinds of things,
but God they ran that thing likewith the with both discipline
and theatre.
Um, and so analysing what wasbeing said in that group chat
becomes like extensive.
So it kind of goes from a groupchat of did anyone want to grab

(02:03):
coffee to more as of like adraft PhD kind of thing inside
this thread.
And those other rotters, ourother colleagues, said we should
do a podcast if we really kindof had this much interest.
I remember not taking thatremotely seriously.
Um, Caroline, you then went towatch commission hearings live
for your birthday.
I did.
You know?

(02:23):
Interesting choice.
And from memory, your husbandgave you a pod track for
Christmas or your birthday, kindof like one of those what on
earth could I get this person?
Again, I don't feel like it wasnecessarily with the yes, with
direction.
Um I still didn't think we weremaking a podcast.
And then our first recordattempt was in different
reasons.

(02:44):
Caroline thought we were makinga podcast from we're like,
surely this will be like makingup knitting or whatever where
like you bumped all the stuff.
It was a crochet vibe.
That's so true.
And it'll never go anywhere.
But that's okay, we'll all nodand smile.
Because we were still enjoyingthe content, right?
So we were like, we'll just kindof pretend.

(03:05):
Then the first time we attemptedto record, you had COVID and we
were in different rooms in thesame house.

SPEAKER_03 (03:11):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
When we finally had six episodes done and made the
music, and Caroline, you'd donea PhD on the tech and the
processes that we needed, Istill didn't think we were
making a podcast.
What did you think we were doingat this point?
I don't know.
What were we doing?
Crocheting.
When we eventually dropped thosefirst six, we thought some of

(03:33):
our friends might listen.

SPEAKER_02 (03:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (03:35):
And they did, and we have made many new friends
since.
So before I tell you exactly howmany new friends and where they
are we have made, and I have totell you, uh listeners, that
they don't have the script thatI have because I have I'm going
to drop things on them to see ifthey remember much about it.
Um what do you remember fromthat bit before we dropped the

(03:56):
first six?
Do you remember anything?
Like, how did we get here?

SPEAKER_02 (04:02):
Um I remember Alison making our logo, and to our
great shame, she's never like,we've never actually had a
proper version of it.
Every time we use it.
Yeah, we're like, does anyoneremember the 23 kilobyteware?

SPEAKER_00 (04:19):
And then promptly like deleted the free software.
That's right.
We never had to do it.
It's 28-day free.
And if you kept it after the 28days, you had to pay for it.
I was like, right now, it'scomplete.
That I remember.

SPEAKER_01 (04:34):
I'd forgotten about that, and the logo I love.
Like I did not expect it.
And when you came back with it,I was like, that is gorgeous.

SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
Yes, it was so good.
It was so good.

SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
So it's been two and a half years since we dropped
those six first episodes on the1st of July 2023.
And in that time, we've made 67episodes of this podcast.
We have listeners in 64countries, which either means
public administration failuretravels extremely well, or some
of you are using VPNs andtotally VPNs.

(05:08):
We have covered seven majorfailures across a couple of
countries.
We had 18 episodes on Robodetand interviewed seven guests,
some of them multiple timesacross 11 interview episodes.
Most of you listeners listen onApple Podcasts, about 60 to 65%
of you.

(05:28):
13 of you join me on Spotify, 5%join my husband on Pocket Cast,
there's always going to be arebel in the crowd.
And I'm interested in the 2% ofyou listening on your computers,
which raises questions for meabout your daily workflow.
Uh 90%, 90% of you listen onyour phones, and mainly iPhones.
So you are folding us into yourcommutes, your housework, and

(05:50):
your gym sessions, which feels abit wrong, but we really support
you in those endeavors.
So before we get to thereflections, post the numbers,
I've got a quiz for you.
Number one, how many minutesroughly do you think people have
listened to us over the life ofthis pod?

SPEAKER_02 (06:06):
Oh you're gonna make it.
Yeah, this is a thousand.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Well, I was a hundred thousandis my guess.

SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
Seven million minutes of listening to us.
Oh, Liz.
What?
You get less for murder, people.
You get less for murder.
Seven million minutes oflistening to us.
Oh my god, those.
Yeah.
Yep.
Sorry.
Question two, what was ourlongest ever episode?

(06:42):
Was it the amount of time?
Probably one of the interviews.

unknown (06:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (06:46):
It was Sue Varden, and we didn't really want to
stop either, but like at a atone hour 34 minutes, even when
we were probably Yeah, that's abit.
Uh what's what was the shortestepisode back when you still had
some control over like thetiming of this, Caroline?

SPEAKER_02 (07:03):
Maybe it was it would have been one of those
early ones, like a kind ofColumbia effect or uh how not to
stop something.

SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
Yeah.
Well what do you think theaverage length back when this
had proper controls around it ofthe first 10 episodes were when
Caroline had these massivelystrong views about war.
Strictly 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 (07:21):
That's right.
Lisa 27.
Well done, Allison.
30 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 (07:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (07:26):
What is it?
Now, Dee.

SPEAKER_01 (07:27):
Right.
My next question to you is.

SPEAKER_00 (07:29):
Well, that was back when Caroline used to keep us,
you know, on track.
Now I've given up on that.

SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
Yep.
So the average length of thelast 10 episodes does not meet
Caroline's rules at all.
We are now at 52 minutes.
Oh Jesus Christ.
Also, it has not meant thatpeople have stopped listening.
So it turns out it doesn'tmatter, Caroline.

SPEAKER_02 (07:51):
Look, I have views.
Oh no way we can argue aboutthis offline.
Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
No worries.
Which, my last question, whichstate or city in Australia loves
us the most by downloading.

SPEAKER_02 (08:01):
Melbourne.
Melbourne.
Yep.
100%.

SPEAKER_01 (08:04):
Shout out to our Victorians.

SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
Yeah, thank you, Vix.

SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
So speaking of that data, Spotify rap dropped this
week.
And I think Alison might knowthe answer to this because I
think I shared it with her.
But my personal humiliation partof this is does anyone know how
old the algorithm of Spotifythought I was?

SPEAKER_02 (08:21):
No.
Oh no.
Someone at work, it was 74.
Is it 74 for you too?

SPEAKER_01 (08:27):
77.
Oh, baba! That's even worse.
So after reflecting on my loveof 50s and 60s Motown, I've had
a look at the Spotify Wrappedfor the Pod, which is much
kinder to all of us.
Our listening time on Spotifythis year is up 40%.

(08:48):
Our follower count is up 85%.
Our total audience grew 56%.
I was genuinely shocked todiscover that for a fair few
hundred of you, we are yournumber one downloaded show.

SPEAKER_02 (08:59):
Oh, thanks, team.
And so many of you have beentexting me that, actually.
I'm just getting constant textsfrom people saying I'm your
number one on wrapped.
So thanks.

SPEAKER_01 (09:10):
And the big one for me, where I was like, oh, this
is like getting your schoolreport card.
You don't get feedback like thisanymore.
Um, was that Spotify listed usas a most shared show for 2025.
So apparently, this littlepublic service podcast receives
more shares than 99% of allother shows, which means that
many of you are evangelizingabout governance failures at

(09:31):
barbecues and school pickup.
And we just love you for that.
Like so much.

SPEAKER_00 (09:36):
I also particularly enjoyed that the Spotify rap
showed that people who love ourpodcast also love two other
artists in particular, TaylorSwift at tracks, and the
wiggles.

SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
Totally out to our young parent crowd.
100%.
Um, and there were some otherones like um uh the audiobooks
that our listeners have listenedto on Spotify was Jacinda Arden,
but I thought the Ezra Kleinabundance was funnier on the
basis that like particularlyCommonwealth public servants

(10:12):
know that if you don't know EzraKlein's abundance, you can't
participate in conversations andmeetings at the moment in
Canberra.
And so I'm like, oh, you listento us, and then you listen to
Ezra Klein and you're like,good, I'm ready to go.

SPEAKER_02 (10:23):
Oh see, I liked the romanticy series, Sarah Ma's
Crown of Thorns.
And I was like, yeah, baby, I'mgonna go have a listen to that
next too.
Thanks, thanks, team.

SPEAKER_01 (10:33):
Okay, so that's the like self-aggrandizing kind of
report card.
Um, and we like just could notdo it without this
extraordinarily bunch of loyallisteners.
Going back to the beginning ofRoboDet, we started the podcast
because we were watching theevidence and it we had some
initial reactions to it.
One was, I recognize that, I'vebeen in a meeting like that,

(10:54):
I've seen a boss with that kindof behavior, I've thought about
things like that.
And when you watched it, it justfelt like, oh, the world's about
to change.
Um, there's a need for a seismicshift in the skills and craft of
public servants.
Time has changed, all sorts ofthings have changed.
This is what this RoyalCommission is going to do.
So, two and a half years later,Alison and Caroline, did it do

(11:15):
that?

SPEAKER_02 (11:18):
So, in thinking about this question, I went back
and looked at the APSC umfindings.
Because I'm a nerd.
Thanks, Danielle, for the riotsmile you just gave in response
to me saying that.
Um, and one of the things I wasthinking about what we'd said at
the time, one of the things wasthat they talked about the kinds

(11:38):
of actions that breached thecode, and there were some that
really resonated with us.
So, expressly directing staffnot to consult or collaborate
with others who had a directinterest in the matter, failing
to consider the impact on andcapacity of staff and work
quality when setting timeframes, and failing to act on
lawfulness or truthfulness givenall the information you gain
over a reasonable period oftime, right?

(12:00):
And I was trying to think aboutwith those things in mind, and
we were like, wow, that's kindof a revolutionary way of
thinking aboutmaladministration.
Like that's kind of a muchbroader definition.

SPEAKER_01 (12:10):
Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_02 (12:11):
Much broader.
And then I was thinking about doI think that those ideas about
maladministration have beeninternalized in the public
service practice that I'mseeing?
Like, I think it is a bit of amixed bag, I'm gonna say.
Like, I don't I think there areI'm not sure they have it all.

(12:31):
Yeah, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
Like, equally, I'm not sure that the Royal
Commission set out to transformthe public service so much as it
set out to inquire into whereand how and from whom uh certain
conduct got you to that endpoint.

(12:56):
Um, and in doing so, I thinkthey did, like you say, have a
useful summary of the types ofconduct that can tend to lead
one to error.
Um I am disappointed that notenough individuals that had the
potential to be punished werepunished as strongly as they
ought to.

(13:16):
But mostly I'm disappointed thatI just don't think there's been
any kind of large-scalereckoning about some of the
lessons, and to the extent thatthere has, and to the extent I
hear people tell me, oh well, wecan't do that anymore because of
Robodebt.
I they've taken entirely thewrong um risk uh from the

(13:36):
Robodebt thing, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 (13:39):
So yeah, I mean it's interesting to record this on
the day that the Saturday paperled with an item about um
ministerial officers advisinglobbyists and stakeholders to
provide advice via disappearingapp uh disappearing messages on
signal because of the concernthat advice would be captured by

(14:00):
FOI.
And then that makes you thinkabout the FOI recommendations
from the Royal Commission andthe fact that those that the the
kind of raft of legislationbeing considered in the
parliament kind of cuts almostdirectly against what was
recommended in the RoyalCommission.
So I do feel like there'ssomething about there's
something about the kind of whatwould I have hoped for?

(14:20):
I would have hoped in my idealworld, I would have hoped that
we would be more tolerant of themess of public policy, more
tolerant of how hard it is toget things right, and that we
need to make mistakes and learnfrom them and correct them in
the way that we go about, andthat we kind of do that.
And I feel like there's actuallyless tolerance in some ways for

(14:42):
exposing the mess of publicpolicy decision making.
Um, and that that feels lesspositive to me.

SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
Yeah.
I think that there are increasedconversations about how to do
the work.
Um, I think that they're inpockets still.
So I think the Royal Commission,and I think to some extent this
podcast, without being again toomuch of hubris where it's like
we should probably have moreconversations about how we think

(15:14):
and how we do.
But I think they're in pockets,and I think as you so I don't
think they're systematized.
I think they are led byindividual good humans who want
to talk a little bit more aboutwhat the job is and do it kind
of with with that vulnerabilityof going, I don't know all the
answers.
But I think that's as I'm notsure it's driven by various

(15:35):
Royal Commissions or integrityreports.
I think it's driven byindividuals hitting a certain
age and their estrogen droppingand going, actually, I want to
do something about this.
I mean, I do maintain that thispodcast, like some people, you
know, get sports cars, othersstart with podcasts.

SPEAKER_02 (15:59):
It is a very classic perimetopausal midlife crisis
moment.
Uh-huh.
Actually, can I just say onething that has changed in this
context is the you know, like umthe idea that policymakers
should not be disconnected fromtheir community.
I do genuinely think you see alot more systemic commitment to

(16:21):
the idea of spending time withFrontline, and that's like been
a real positive in the publicservice practice.
Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
Yeah, no, I agree.
So we've interviewed Sue Varden,Mike Kaiser, both former, former
current secretaries, um, and uhformer secretary Andrew Podger.
Ministers, John Hill, Amanda VanStone, and Tom Coots and Tonis,
and Dr.
Darren O'Donovan.
Which one was your favourite tolisten to, to get reactions

(16:50):
from, to do either of thosethings?
Who was what's your favouriteinterview?

SPEAKER_02 (16:54):
Because I'm a black sheep, I'm gonna say the one you
forgot, Tom Loosemore fromUniversal Credit.
Um, but I'm not saying it's myfavourite because of it, like
because I'm a black sheep, butactually it was my favourite
because it was uh it was nice totalk about something working.

SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
Hmm, I agree.
Uh my favourite was Amanda VanStone.
I thought she was hilarious butinsightful and really had
lessons that weren't just forministers and weren't just for
public servants, but aimed athelping both understand each
other.

SPEAKER_01 (17:28):
I thought my answer was going to be um ministers
Koots and Tonus or Amanda VanStone, just because they are
both such plain spoken, theygave such great copy, they were
both incredible fun to actuallydo in the room.
But actually, having had a lookthrough the list this morning, I
think it's Sue Varden for acouple of reasons.
Um, to to have such a clear andclinical memory of what

(17:51):
something was supposed to be,and then be able to go back as
to what it turned into.
I mean, effectively that's a lotof what we do in our some of our
leadership working on the pod islike what was I trying to do and
how did I not get there and andand why not and what can we know
about that?
And so um just the depth ofunderstanding and the like I I

(18:13):
think it was actually Sue Vadenum for me.

SPEAKER_02 (18:17):
Yeah, yeah.
And I find I quote it mostactually of the ones that I'm if
I'm ever quoting something, I Isort of say, oh yeah, Sue Vaden
talked about this.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (18:26):
Yeah, and that's interesting.
So that's what I'm like.
So the quoting part, I mean we Iwe quote, I quote you both.
Like back at you.

SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
All right, yeah, same.

SPEAKER_01 (18:36):
And the worst bit is because this is a public
podcast, I previously probablywould have stolen your thoughts
and ideas and not attributedthem.

SPEAKER_00 (18:42):
Badged them as my own, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 (18:44):
100%.
And now I feel this ridiculousobligation to attribute back to
you all every time I quote you.
Um, but outside of individuals,we've covered Robodet, Essendon,
the Post Office, the Queenslandpayroll, Pink Bats, Universal
Credit, Oakden.
Which of these stories and thelessons from them do you
actually quote or refer to mostoften in your like day-to-day

(19:09):
kind of conversations?

SPEAKER_00 (19:14):
Um probably the universal credit, actually, in
terms of the importance ofsomeone holding the vision.
And I talk a bit about uh Bosson the Floor from Oakden as
well.

SPEAKER_02 (19:27):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Me too, universal credit uh isvery much, and I think it's part
of that as well, that positivevision.
Like it's a much easier story totell.
So I think there's something forus to think about there.
Um but uh the other one uh forme is there's in the post office
stuff, there's just there's afew little like that kind of um

(19:50):
the buying the dot ICT systemand why you might and the Jeff
Mulgan advice about it.
Like I do find myself oftentalking about how you can kind
of end up making terrible.
Decisions anyway.
So that one too.

SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
I do use the Jeff Mulgan written advice all the
time.
Incredible.

SPEAKER_01 (20:07):
Yeah, right.
How about you?
I I I so I use universal creditand I quote them a lot more.
I think partly exactly what youjust said, Caroline, which is I
like to tell people that there'sa happy ending.
Um like I I was a speaker at anend-of-year event and I was
like, I am not giving anybodymisery for Christmas, and they
will think they're getting itwhen I start telling them about

(20:28):
how universal credit kind ofslipped down.
But I'm gonna tell them how itall came good in the end.
Um that said, I probably stilluse a lot of RoboDet.
Partly just because of the, Ithink the granular amount of
when you're working with someoneor you're talking about an
issue, there's always an examplein Robodet where you're like,
that's like this, that's likethat.

(20:49):
Um there's just so much, therewas so much in it.
So I think universal credit,because I'm trying to again be
slightly more chipper about ourcraft and practice, but still
use Robodet quite a lot.
All right, let's lift the veil alittle bit.
Podcasts have become much moreprevention professional since we

(21:11):
started this.
Uh, they're all over Bloom andYouTube in proper studios with
like props.
Um, we have become lessprofessional and slightly more
chaotic.
Um, aside from the fact that wewould just could never have
video recordings of this.
I mean, if the public could seewhatever those boxes of things
are currently behind you,Caroline, um, and the state of

(21:31):
all of us on a Saturdayafternoon.
Um, I don't know if we'd everget any work again.
Um But we've had some prettyunhinged recordings in trying to
push this thing out once afortnight.
What are some of the mostunhinged memories you have of
trying to get this podcast outamongst lives, commitments,

(21:52):
travel, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 (21:55):
Well, Alice was thinking, I w I knew this might
be a theme of questions, so Iasked Chat GPT to review our
transcripts and pull out likeinteresting things that I might
want to tease you about.
And I love it.
Totally got who said this wrong,and that's brilliant as well.
It says Alison announcing, allright, we're having lunch or
what during an interview, whichwas actually Amanda Van Stone

(22:15):
who said, but would be totallyon brand.

SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
I just think the AI knew that like it could have
been Allison, right?

unknown (22:24):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 (22:26):
But it does capture some of the chaos, even though
it's not strictly true.
It's like feelings true for meon that one.

SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
Uh, I mean, any number of times we have
forgotten an essential piece ofkit to record something.
Uh we've tried and narratedhere.

SPEAKER_02 (22:46):
Like Mac to draw away to the coast with the one
connecting thing that we had notgot.

SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
Thank you, Mac.
Good on you, Matt, starling.
And the number of times we'vehad to then go and raid like a
teenager's room to see if theyhad a cord or a spare something
to see if we could pull thisoff.

SPEAKER_00 (23:04):
Um we've recorded on the couch, on the floor, uh on
around the kitchen table, arounda trestle table.

SPEAKER_01 (23:12):
Oh, I see.
My like strongest memory ofchaos was I really didn't think
we'd get the caretaker episoderecorded because we just didn't
have enough time and we did iton the floor, and then I
couldn't get off the floor.
We had to leave to go to anevent.

SPEAKER_00 (23:25):
We recorded it in beanbags, so we're trying not to
rustle throughout the recording.
Stay still.

SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
Look, it has been chaotic.

SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
Danielle and I both had to roll onto our sides onto
the floor in order to get out ofthe beanbag.

SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Yeah.
Hands and knees, safety firstfor the low mobility crowd.

SPEAKER_00 (23:49):
Just in case people listening at home think that
we're classic professionalladies.
I need you to know.

SPEAKER_01 (23:54):
Undernoses.
So, what else has changed thoughabout how we've done this?
I mean, I I would say that theadvent of the online recording
has I don't think we could stillhave put these out every
fortnight if we were stilltrying to be in the same state,
let alone the same place withthe right chord.
Like the level of things thathad to happen to go right to
always do it in person.

unknown (24:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (24:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (24:13):
Was a lot of things.
Like you had to be in the samestate, get there, and then you
had to find a teenager to driveyou the thing that you forgot
before you could get started.
So I think the advent of onlinehas meant we've been able to
interview different people thatwe wouldn't have been able to
otherwise and turn up to recordwhen we wouldn't have otherwise.
What else do you think has kindof changed?

SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
But it is harder for me to cut you all off online
than in the room where I canindicate that it might be time
to bring the plane in for alanding.
Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
Easier to dodge your eye contact, mate, when down the
barrel I can just turn thecamera off.

SPEAKER_00 (24:51):
Which uh which is to say I need people to know
because in public peoplesometimes uh come to me with
ideas of the podcast, which ofcourse I do share, but I also
say um I'm not actually thebottom boss of the podcast.
I'm just the boss when the mic'soff.
Now Caroline's the boss of thepodcast.
Caroline's the boss, just to beclear.

SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
And I think one of the things that has changed.
One of the things that haschanged, and I wrote a little a
little speech I wanted to giveat this point, is like it's hard
doing a thing with friends,right?
Like, and it's hard doing what'sessentially a work product with
friends with no boss.

(25:32):
Like, that's really hard.
And we're three bossesourselves.
And when I think about what'schanged, I think it's like I
have relaxed into being lesscontrolling.
I have been very grateful foryou guys letting that happen in
a way that didn't like.
I mean, you know, there's adifferent world where this was

(25:53):
was really tough on ourfriendship, but it hasn't been.
And I just like I just think Idon't know, what's changed is it
has become a pure unalloyed joyfor me.
And I reckon in the first yearit was harder.
And I do just want toacknowledge I know it was harder
for you guys as well.
And I love you, and I'm so gladwe stuck with it because
actually the sticking with ithas got us out the other side
where it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 (26:14):
Yeah.
Oh, I didn't prepare a speech,but I have a rather supply
response, which is you are stillthe boss, but also for all of
our gentle and loving ribbing,this wouldn't have happened, and
it certainly wouldn't have kepthappening.
Um, Alison and I would havefloated off into the remember
when that time when we reportedsix episodes of a podcast and
never uploaded them anywheredistance.
When we take a crocheting, youmean?

unknown (26:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
Your total determination.

SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
I still have half a granny square somewhere.
It's so true.

SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
Your hard work, particularly on the technical
side and um pushing us.
I I want to say thank you, andthat I'm very grateful for
because the pod has changed somuch of my life, which, as I
said, I would have drifted offinto the are you serious at
Sunday.
I have other work I need to do.
Um, had you not been like, won'ttake long, you'll be fine.

(27:05):
Come on, let's go.
Closer to the mic, turn itaround.
No, not like that, not likethat, not like that.
Stop flapping, stop banging.
Crazy lady.

SPEAKER_02 (27:17):
Oh bless.
Anyway, I'm from the mushystuff.

SPEAKER_01 (27:19):
What's next, D?
Um, favorite episodes to eitherrecord or because of how it
landed.
See, some of the one I reckonrecording is like an exam.
You know, when you walk out ofan exam and we've got young
people in our life who've donethat recently, and you've
actually got no idea whetherit's any good or and um unless
you listen back to it.
So it doesn't have to be to haverecorded it, but either

(27:40):
recording it or how it landed.

SPEAKER_00 (27:50):
I'm there.
I I don't need to listen to itlater.
Both Caroline and Danielle dolisten to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 (27:59):
Like sometimes when I'm really depressed, edit out
any stupidity, mate.
Like we listen back for theedit.
So that's actually because I'mcool, I was there.
My argument to that is someonehas to do the sense fact check
at the end and cover your ass.
I love that.

SPEAKER_02 (28:15):
But for me, it's actually I listen because
sometimes I am just likeoverwhelmed with work and
everything is feeling too bigand too depressing, and I'm in
another state, and I don't have,and it's just like it's a way of
having a chat with you guyswithout having to like bother
you while you're busy.
I love listening to it becauseit's just like having friends
around, right?
Yeah.
So anyway.

SPEAKER_00 (28:34):
And may I also recommend for that particular
niche in your life um NigellaLawson reading how to eat on
Audible.
Incredible.
Oh, brilliant.
Like nothing to soothe anxiety,like Nigella telling you how to
make mayonnaise.
Nothing.

SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
Oh, my life's my life's work is to get Richard
Roxborough reading anything.
The phone book would be fine.

SPEAKER_02 (28:55):
Well, you know, Colin Perth does the end of the
affair, and it's like franklyindecent how much gravel he puts
in his voice in that particularreading.
I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_00 (29:06):
Uh anyway, favorite sorry, favorite episodes.

SPEAKER_01 (29:09):
I'm not doing a very good job of banging Allison and
bossing us around.
Favourite episodes, ladies, whatwere they?

SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
Um, I most, I mean, they're recent ones, but I most
enjoyed recording the scenarios.
Uh, but I also really enjoyedour uh episode on the human
handbreak report.
And actually, you were talkingabout what do we quote a lot of.
I quote a lot of the humanhandbreak report.
Love that.

SPEAKER_02 (29:32):
Um for me, there's two.
One is the Columbia Effectepisode, and I love it because
it's like actually it came outof like a genuine conversation
the three of us were havingabout this, and like it just
perfectly distills just a momentin a thing where things go
wrong, and it's like it's such agood lesson, and it's such a
tight story.
So I love that.
And the other one, I just todayI was re-listening to the one

(29:54):
that we published on the um whenthe APSC put out its Robodet
findings.
I don't know, Danielle, if youremember that you got us to put
at the end the Jeb Bartlett umquote where he's talking about,
you know, sometimes you just getit wrong.
Like there is just so much goldin that particular episode.
It really summarizes heaps ofthemes for me, and it's humane
and funny and um and and notsmug.

(30:18):
And I just I was listening to itand I just I I felt the wisdom
of it again.
I'm like, God, how did we havesuch smart things to say about
that?

SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
Well, West Wing quotes.
I mean, I can be them on specany day of the week for
anything, for child raising, youname it.
There's a Keating quote or aWest Queen quote for all
contexts.

SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
And also, if you know the West Wing quote but
can't find what episode itappears in, Danielle knows that
too.
If you check out, the quote onthe smug though, I am I am
always conscious that that wetry not to appear like we have
all the answers.
And certainly for me, amotivation around Robodet was a
very strong kind of there, butfor the grace of God go I sense

(31:00):
that I've been a part of publicsector projects that didn't go
that wrong, but could have.
And I've been in meetings andseen behaviours and all the
kinds of types of things thatthat contributed to RoboDet.
Anyway, now I've got us offtrack.
Danielle, favourite episode?

SPEAKER_01 (31:15):
No, no, no, no.
I think that that's interesting.
I um I'm not sure if I have apaper episode, but today I went
back and accidentally found whenthe Robodet Royal Commission
report dropped because we'dactually we actually did the
first eight, nine episodes orwhatever it is, before the
report dropped.
And I had, I suppose I'dforgotten how impactful.
So I don't think the episode isactually that valuable, so no

(31:36):
one else needs to go listen toit, but I was just struck that
when you and I were talkingabout it the week at launch
Carol landed Caroline kind ofhow much it whacked us both in
the solar plexus, how beautifula report it was, how plain the
recommendations were.
No one was trying to demonstratethat they, you know, they could
do a 50-word sentence with aword salad.

(31:56):
Like Commissioner Holmes wroteit like it was just beautiful,
basically, and that I hadforgotten how we were kind of
quite knocked sideways when weread it for the first time.
Um, so yeah.
So let's face it, we don't makemoney from this, and it takes
time.
So our buckets are not filledwith money by it, but instead
the dopamine and serotonin ofthe constant stream of feedback

(32:18):
from our awesome listeners.
That's true.
Do you have a favorite bit offeedback aside from that one
star review from that teenagerin the first year it was?
Um and you know, it's fine,we've moved on, it's fine.
It was three years ago, I'mtotally on.
Like I've I've definitelyforgotten that one-star review
to all the five-star reviews.
Um, I will find you, hunt youdown, and give you a poor Uber

(32:40):
rating.
Um, but your favourite bits oflistener feedback.

SPEAKER_02 (32:46):
Uh, for me, the appearing on stage at the Ansog
um conference, you guys havebeen there all day, and I just
kind of came in cold fromsomething else, and it was like
it was it was just awesome tofeel the kind of sense that
people felt seen by the thingsthat so it was just that that's
what I really like is like I'mlike, oh yeah, no, people really

(33:06):
feel like we're capturingsomething about their lives in
this conversation and gettingthe live feedback with applause
is literally like pushing all ofmy gold star seeking buttons.
Alison?

SPEAKER_00 (33:17):
Uh someone very recently said that she felt like
listening to our episodes waslike eavesdropping on a table of
brilliant ladies having lunch,and I was very touched by that.

SPEAKER_01 (33:28):
I mean, you wouldn't ask for a shower to be at lunch,
but which I haven't today yet.
But um What about you?
Oh, I like it when um that the Ilike the feedback that's
specific that comes in throughthe LinkedIn and the all sorts
of mechanisms, where they'relike, I was in a meeting today
and I remembered when you guyssaid X and I did Y.

(33:51):
Because um, as much as I deeplylike just the rock star nerd
quotient of it and walking outat the AnSog Regulators
Conference was like the closestto a rock star I am ever gonna
feel.

SPEAKER_03 (34:00):
So true.

SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
And the really specific bit where I feel like
for all of those reportsCaroline has forced me to read,
or the times I didn't want torecord, it's when people tell
you they've done somethingreally specifically different
that that kind of feedback, Ijust feel like that was totally
worth all the times I did notwant to figure out what the
point of the human handbrakewas, and it's like it was worth

(34:24):
it because people are grippingit up in a practical way, and
I'm probably just inherentlyreally practical.
Um, but what I didn't reallyexpect when this kicked off was
back to that rock, the rock starpart is people would come up to
me in meetings.
Sometimes I've I've I've beendoing trainings of 100 people
online, and there'll besomething in the group chat
saying, Is this the lady fromthe podcast?
Um it's not the lady, that's forsure.

(34:46):
Sorry.
If one of us was gonna be late,it sure as hell wouldn't be me.
That's for sure.
Um it's the chick from thepodcast.
Um and I've had someone like sayask me a question in the
airport.
What have been your favoriteexperiences of running into
listeners in the wild?
And my other one is not to likesteal from um Annabelle and Lee,

(35:07):
but I feel like listeners isboring.
Like if anyone's got a good namefor you guys as a cohort, I am
totally up for giving you aname.
That's my 2026 challenge.
Tell us something we can stopcalling you our pod listeners
and start calling you something.

SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
Westmonsters.

SPEAKER_02 (35:23):
West monsters.
Westmonsters sound no, no, hardgo.
Uh mine is running into runninginto mismas in the wild, ladies.
Go for a mide.
It comes from just this lastweek.
Uh, I was in a meeting with abunch of um public servants uh
talking about a tricky thing,like a kind of trying to nut
through a whatever.
And I emailed one of the peoplein the meeting afterwards and I

(35:45):
said, you know, I just reallyrespected how you did you kind
of you worked through a trickyethical issue kind of really
thoughtfully and bravely andblah, blah, blah.
And she emailed back and said,This means so much to me.
I'm a huge PUB fan.
And I was just like, that isdelightful.
Like that was, yeah, that wasjust, it was beautiful.
Because I was like, oh, I wasjust giving feedback, but now I

(36:05):
know that feedback even meantmore to her.
So shout out.

SPEAKER_01 (36:08):
I so Caroline, I would say you and I are pretty
good on the email and theLinkedIn responding messages.
Uh, and listeners may not knowthis, but uh two of us are
introverts, one of us is anextrovert.
Hi, Alison.
Thanks for repping us for thepeople who want to meet up.
Tell us about your running intopeople in the wild.

SPEAKER_00 (36:27):
Uh I just I appreciate the bravery of every
person that's like, hi, Ilistened to a podcast.
Would you be interested in?
And of course, it's it alwaysgoes like this anytime,
sometime, maybe.
I mean, if it's notinconvenient, having a drink of
coffee.
Hell yeah, anytime.
Hit me up.

SPEAKER_01 (36:44):
So, like, is that like we're gonna create a like a
Tinder grinder app for likenerds?
It's like where you travel forwork and you're like, okay, near
this cafe, there are four otherpeople who would like to talk
about governance failures.
Ping them now to join you inthis coffee line.

(37:06):
I love that idea and literallytaking that.
Like, we are gonna do that.
So, strong opinions heldloosely.
That is us, right?
Very strong opinions, andoccasionally contrarians.
I think potentially listeners,you think that we take opposite
sides of an argument becausewe've thought about it, crafted
it, and it's in the script.

(37:26):
Sometimes I just want todisagree with Caroline for like
absolute shits and giggles.

SPEAKER_00 (37:30):
Um mostly this is the basis of literally all of
our communication, though.
Yeah.
So it's not put on for the pod.

SPEAKER_01 (37:39):
There are hundreds of hours of our opinions
strongly held, strongly wordedbut held reasonably loosely, now
out in the ether.
Um for me, sometimes when Ilisten back to an episode we've
just recorded to send it off toour lovely um audio producer
Adam, I disagree with myselfbefore I've even published it.
I'm like, oh, I made that soundlike I felt one of them was I

(38:04):
was in a mood the day werecorded, I don't know what the
episode was, but we were talkingabout where they're having a
named lead of big reforms.
Made a difference to theirsuccess, must be universal
credit.
And you two are like,absolutely, if you're Gonsky or
this and that, I was just like,I hate this idea.
I have uh someone in my life whoworked extensively on one of
Australia's most massive reformsthat has someone else's name

(38:26):
over the top of it.
Um, and I listened back and waslike, wow, that was a strong
opinion that you don't actuallyhold because you were clearly
tired.
So having put your very stronglyworded opinions out into the
world for like the last two anda half years, Caroline and
Allison, what have you changedyour mind about?

SPEAKER_00 (38:49):
To be honest, I'm not sure I recogni recollect
well enough.
This is the thing she doesn'tknow.
What has she said?
What have I said?
Uh uh there was an episode thatwas released recently that was
recorded when I was justviciously hungover from
attending a wedding the nightbefore.
And someone who I know very wellin real life texted me and was

(39:11):
like, Is it possible that in thelatest episode you are very
hungover?
So I'm not sure that that was myfinest offering.

SPEAKER_01 (39:21):
Um have you changed your opinion on regulators
though, Alison?
Like I feel like you've had abit of this.

SPEAKER_00 (39:27):
I have.

SPEAKER_01 (39:27):
I have I feel like you've had you've gone from
like, oh, they're boring peopleto falling a little bit in love
with our regulator crowd.
Have I misunderstood that?

SPEAKER_00 (39:34):
No, I have just a much greater appreciation for
what regulators are doing andthe difficulty of the
environment that they're doingin, particularly from uh the
time that we spent uh at the NRCOP conference in Brisbane, but
yeah, generally um some otherengagement across other events
as well.
I have a I have a more nuancedview of what regulators do, and

(39:58):
I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
Carol, I think I have gone on a journey that I
don't like to acknowledge I hadto go on, but like I think I
have gone on a on a journeylargely prodded by you,
Danielle, about um about thewisdom of the frontline and
thinking through like I think Ialways thought and kind of knew

(40:23):
those things, you know, sort of,but I think I really have have
become much more humble aboutthe ability of big brains to
conceptualize and designsolutions to problems, even
informed by.
And I think that's why I'm sointerested in test and learn and

(40:43):
kind of because I now actuallyno longer really believe anyone
is gonna ever come up with a agood upfront design.
Like I actually, like I in fact,as I'm saying, I might know this
is really the journey I've beenon from the idea that you should
involve lived experience andkind of come up with something.
I now actually think that'snever gonna be enough and you
always need to do another thing,and that's been a learning on

(41:03):
the journey.
Specifically, though, I did justwant to shout out on our last um
Buzzware Bingo episode, I waslistening back to it and we were
all bemoaning the co-design umuh mania and the way in which
kind of a commitment toco-design is kind of false and
and performative, not false, butperformative in government.
Um I do feel like we, of course,missed the other side of the

(41:25):
conversation, and Daddy Oldtried to bring us back to it a
little bit.
Like um, there is a lot ofperformative commitment to
co-design.
There's also just a lot ofannouncing stuff and doing
stuff.
And like I feel like I wouldn'thave to do that.
I mean, yes, obviously.
Exactly.
Um that's I think that's not athing I've changed my mind
about, but it's a thing that Ikind of yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
I mean, I think uh listening to a few of
particularly the early ones,that strong opinions held
loosely apart is I feel lesssure about everything as more
time goes on.
And I I make a number ofstatements about change
management in some of thoseearly episodes and the Colton
Sultan who came in and met withthe compliance team that I I

(42:13):
just I'm not sure I don't disit's not that I disagree with
them now, I'm just like, butthere are five answers.
There are five answers to thesethings, and I've given one, um,
and so I haven't changed my mindabout that one.
I just wish that I like I I'mmore like when I hear it back, I
think well it's it's reductive,like you just said X is Y and
black is white or whatever else,and when I think about it,

(42:35):
actually I've changed my mind onit being that simple or that
clear.
Because sometimes it's very easyto mark other people's homework,
right?
Those who can do, those whocan't teach or podcast.
Um and and so sometimes it'slike I've I've look at stuff
that I've said and I think it'snot that I've changed my mind,
although sometimes I've justcompletely changed my mind, but
a lot of the time it's that ohthat's really only one of four

(42:56):
ways you could think about it,and I don't hold that opinion
nearly as strongly as it haskind of come across.

SPEAKER_00 (43:03):
Um I guess the other thing that that it's not so much
a change, but I think at variouspoints um various of our more
junior burger listeners haveasked us to reflect more deeply
on how to handle things when youare not in a leadership
position.
And I really appreciate thatfeedback, and it's we're trying,

(43:24):
it's harder to do than it seems.
Um because sometimes you have solittle control in when you're
not in a leadership positionthat your choices are either or
fuck off elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01 (43:34):
Um that is hard, and shout out to to all of you
living that.
Um we don't edit much anymore.
I'm not sure if it's got we'vegotten much tighter or we're
just like much lazier.
But with the benefit ofreflection, are there bits you
wish you had edited out, or havewe edited something out that you
are now prepared to cough up toour totally trustworthy

(43:57):
listeners and the entireinternet?

SPEAKER_02 (44:00):
I would say to kick off already.
Oh yeah, I was gonna say you'vealready outed one for me because
you talked about the text chainthat this started on.
And if you recall, guys, theoriginal title of this podcast
was Robodet Text Chain.
And we decided not to call itthat because we were worried
about our text chain being FOI.
And in fact, in an earlyepisode, we removed reference to

(44:23):
us being on a text chain becausewe were we were still government
employees at the time and wewere worried about it.
I feel like now I'm probablyless I would I wonder if we've
changed our position on that.

SPEAKER_01 (44:33):
I mean, I I am glad I fought the good fight not to
have the word Robodet in itbecause that would have been
limiting.
And I named the pod and I stillmaintain that it's an excellent
name in the same way thatAllison's logo is very
excellent.
Um, I deeply regret beingvulnerable enough to leave in
from that on the floor episodein Mannham that it hadn't

(44:54):
occurred to me until that veryday as a lifelong South
Australian that Murray Bridgewas in fact called Murray Bridge
because it has a bridge over theMurray.
Like, leaving aside all thepeople who come up and give us
pod feedback, I am lucky in thistown to make it through a
fortnight without someonesaying, I'm not taking advice

(45:14):
from the person.

SPEAKER_03 (45:16):
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 (45:17):
It took 46 years to figure out that Murray Bridge
had a bridge over the Murray.
And I wish I'd edited that outbecause I think that's been more
career limiting than any of theother dumb bits of advice I've
ever done or given, or anyspeech slip-ups, or whatever
else.
Look, so I would do anything totake that out.

SPEAKER_00 (45:36):
That they realized way too late in life.
Uh I didn't know for a very longtime, and I still can only see
it if I really force myself thatthe Australia Post logo is a P.

SPEAKER_03 (45:49):
Oh I didn't know that till just then is like a
movie.

SPEAKER_02 (45:59):
All right.
Um we can vest mine now, but Ihave so many.
But Alison, can you remember?
I've got there's so many.

SPEAKER_01 (46:05):
Wish you'd edited it out, or wish we hadn't edited it
out.
Come on, give me some more.

SPEAKER_00 (46:11):
Uh I mean, uh there I uh are we going to are we
going to play bloopers in thisepisode?

SPEAKER_01 (46:17):
We can, if we can go find them.
We do have one great blooper.
So should we insert it at thispoint here and just leave it to
the listeners to figure out whyand how it was edited out?

SPEAKER_02 (46:30):
You don't swick a flip flicker switch and move
from A to B across everything,right?
Like you do it incrementallyfrom one thing to another.

SPEAKER_01 (46:40):
Um man, I held on so well during this recording.
You did all my swick a flick.
That was the first time I wentdown with both of you.
So I was until then I wouldn't.

(47:03):
Sorry.
But I went straight down withyou both.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (47:06):
Uh all right, we have the unexpected switch of
flip flip.
Switch the flip.
Yeah, we'll edit all of thatone.

SPEAKER_01 (47:17):
So we've just put that one back in.
As I said, we do not edit muchout, but sometimes we misspeak
in a way that uh has aonomatopoeia that is of
weirdness.
Um bringing it home, ladies,unexpected joys.
Because let's face it, for allof this smoosh and whatever
else, it has been so much fun.
Um, the mug people, man.

(47:37):
Like I discovered today that Isuggested a mug with what would
Colleen do on the back inepisode nine, and you both were
like, who the hell would want amug?
So, firstly, again, I win, and Igot to prepare this episode,
which is why I get to win allthe games.
Um and you were like, Why wouldanyone want a mug?
Um I have found an unexpectedjoy in the lengths people are

(47:59):
now going to, and also like it'sa pride of place in various
offices, and I find that joyful.
Um, I think some of the phraseswe have come up with, Alison.
Can you think of any of thosephrases that have been?

SPEAKER_00 (48:17):
Not all ministers.
Uh when I'm doing training aboutthings ministers might tend to
do or not tend to do.
But not all of them.
Not all of them.
Hashtag, not all ministers.
Um because I uh mostly don'tlisten to the podcast once it's
released.
I'm always delighted every timeI hear the fiend music, uh,

(48:40):
which I love.
So good job in that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (48:43):
Another thing we don't actually own or have the
copy of.

unknown (48:47):
Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 (48:48):
Of course it's.

SPEAKER_02 (48:50):
No, we don't.
Like, I mean, Adam has it.
Anyway, if Adam is hit by a bus,we are in trouble, is what I'm
saying.

SPEAKER_01 (48:57):
Thank you, Adam.
This is probably also a goodtime after two and a half years
to acknowledge Adam of PampaAudio who takes our heavy
breathing, banging, children inthe background, dogs.
There have been the dogs of sopod.
There've been a lot of dogs ofthe pod over time, and it is his
job to turn this into somethingyou can all actually hear and
listen to, which we'd makeabsolutely not easy at all for
him.
So Merry Christmas and thank youvery much to Adam.

(49:19):
Caroline, unexpected joys.

SPEAKER_02 (49:21):
Uh, I often end a meeting now by saying till next
time.

SPEAKER_00 (49:25):
So that's a joy for me.
Someone did text me with helloAllison the other day.
It's so true.

SPEAKER_01 (49:35):
Oh, this episode will come out after you get your
Christmas presents, but that I'mglad that you are particularly
fond of the number of people.
Also, I think when we were at anevent together, a bunch of
people were telling us thatCaroline and I say hello Alison
in exactly the same tone everysingle episode.
Um, and that it's like arepeatable kind of brain click
for those.

(49:55):
And I I didn't wasn't aware thatyou and I say hello Allison or
however we do it in the samesense.
Um okay, our final mug winnerfor the year has lifted the bar
yet again.
Rachel Mazach uh has started anew job in September, and at the
same time, we took her podcast.

(50:16):
Uh she'd never done a podcastbefore.
I won't uh and so she listenedto ours as her very first
podcast.
And in the very particular waywe often have, she devoured the
entire Westminster traditionbacklog in two weeks.
Uh, she listened while writingand driving and doing the
housework and then folded all ofthat thinking into a retro craft
project.

(50:36):
She used to crochet uh blanketsbased on the books she'd read,
but she kind of went off readingfor a little while.
And so she is now doing eachsquare on some on a podcast
she's listened to.
And our square is bright andjoyful and slightly eccentric,
which feels incredibly on brand.
Um, what really struck us washer reflection that the show

(50:57):
gave her new knowledge,clarified opinions, and a
renewed pride in being a publicservant.
And if I can Merry Christmas toall of our listeners, please do
have that pride.
I thank you for your service.
I mean that genuinely, and I'mslightly emotional.
I really am grateful for allyour hard work.
Uh, that is the whole point ofwhat we are trying to do here.

(51:17):
So, Rachel, thank you forstitching your way us into your
year.
Your mug is on its way to younow.
Till next time.

SPEAKER_02 (51:26):
Just some appropriately bureaucratic
disclaimers.
While we've tried to be asthorough in our research as busy
full time jobs and lives allow,we definitely don't guarantee
that we've got all the detailsright.
Please feel free to email uscorrections, episode
suggestions, or anything else atthe Westminster Tradition Pod at
gmail.com.
Thanks to Pampot Audio for ourintro and outro music.

(51:48):
Till next time.

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