Ep. 186: Journeyman Distillery with Founders Bill and Johanna Welter

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hey folks, welcome to a new episode of the Whiskey Ring podcast today. I'm thrilled to be going
back over to really two States, Michigan and Indiana to
talk to Bill and Joanna Welter of
Thanks David. So Journeyman's been on
my radar for a while. I remember getting a sample of the course

(00:23):
of swips and whiskey. Oh God, at least four years
ago now, I think it was during the height of COVID and being like,
one, I've never seen a name like that. And two, I
hadn't really had much wheat whiskey at the time. So it was totally new and interesting. And
you've been on a radar kind of since then. So I'm thrilled we were able
to get this together and to have you on. With

(00:46):
that said, let's start the context. So let's
Yeah. For a minute there, I thought we were starting a
I learned that David is from a famous golfing region. So,

(01:08):
uh, we were talking a little bit about long Island, uh, but it's appropriate
in the, in that that's kind of things, uh, how things got started
for journeyman. I, uh, played collegiate golf,
um, graduated like a lot, a lot of young people. I
wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do with my
life and, uh, kind of stuck with what I knew. And

(01:30):
that was golf and, uh, Hopped on a plane
to St. Andrews, Scotland. For
a lot of people, it's a pilgrimage. It's the home of golf. And
anybody who's into golf wants to go there at least once in their life. And I
was incredibly fortunate to have had a
chance to spend 18 months living there. Long

(01:51):
story short, I went over there not knowing a whole lot about whiskey,
knew a lot about golf and wanted to learn more about the history of the game. Got
a job actually waiting tables as,
you know, kind
of a, I guess, you know, a lot of people talk about being ski bums.
I guess I was being a golf bum. But as, As

(02:17):
I was working in St. Andrews, I became good
friends with one of the bartenders. a guy named
Greg Ramsey, who was really into whiskey.
And from that point forward, I guess my life was changed permanently
in that I got into whiskey too, didn't

(02:38):
learn anything about making it while I lived in
St. Andrews, but learned a great deal
about whiskey itself, in particular, the history,
the love, the passion that the Scots have
for it, for that product. It was kind of

(02:58):
a 180 degree opposite experience from,
you know, my collegiate experience when, when people are
just kind of like happy about, you know, someone had
brought whiskey, certainly no one was, interested in
what the Mashville was, or how long it had been aged, or
any of the great details that we look at now. So learned

(03:21):
about that passion, and certainly left Scotland feeling
like I was
a part of Scotland's other great love, both
of those things being golf and whiskey. So went
back to the United States, joined
my dad in our family business, which was sold

(03:45):
and unexpectedly in
2007, at which point in time, I circled back with my
friend, Greg, who had actually himself in
2005, opened a small distillery in Tasmania. And
I had a chance to go and move to Tasmania and

(04:06):
work for Greg and learn how to distill with the intent
of opening a distillery and did that. And
in 2009 and 2010, I
was over there and came back
and I look back on it now and think,

(04:26):
what was I thinking? I didn't
really know anything to be honest with you. But
I guess I had the, the belief that we
could do it. I met Joanna very shortly after, and
the two of us were standing there on opening
day when Journeyman opened its doors for the first time

(04:48):
in October of 2011. And everything
And Joanna, you were a whiskey drinker
Absolutely yeah um you know right before meeting bill

(05:09):
I was living in the city in Chicago, working at
in hospitality and and when
I met him you know one of the questions you know he asked I think
you might have offered to buy me a drink and I was like yeah you know I'll have a whiskey.
It's like, and he kind of gave me a double look like, Oh, okay, you
know, I don't know that he expected that during an era of cosmopolitans. And

(05:33):
I don't know if people remember F and cherry, remember the cherry flavor
vodka, where everyone was drinking that. So it was that era.
So I won't put a year on it, but that was that time. And
ultimately, that sparked our conversation about
whiskey. And then, you know, as our conversation grew,
I found out he was opening up a distillery. And

(05:55):
of course, you know, that was, you know, match made
Jonah took one look at me, David, and said something
like, you know, like, what garage are you opening?
I'm not kidding. Like, you know, I looked
like, you know, somebody who just

(06:16):
kind of almost just walked off the street. I just, you
know, wasn't apparently giving a vibe of, you
know, something like this guy has any clue of what he's
doing. And I'm like, as I've already said, I didn't. So She
And the or my love, apparently. But

(06:41):
for whatever reasons, as life has
has these crazy twists and turns. And that's really what the
journeyman name is about. John and I's
paths crossed. And actually, we met at
a friend's going away party. a guy
that I had worked with previously and that

(07:02):
she knew through a different friend group. We both
showed up at this friend's going away party and both of
us have, you know, since said, well, you know, I almost really
didn't go like, you know, it was really, you know,
for her, it was on the far end of Chicago. She was living in Chicago
at the time. And I was actually coming from Indiana and both

(07:24):
of us, I think we're thinking, you know, this is, we
love this guy, you know, but you know, I
don't need to explain to you. Sometimes you just, I don't think I'm able to
make it, but we both did make it thankfully. And, and, uh,
Awesome. Before we leave, uh, St.
Andrews behind, I just want to, um, jump on that quickly. Most

(07:46):
of the other product questions are gonna be later in the podcast, but so
when I, I think the first podcast I listened to you on a bill
was. It was definitely golf related and
with whiskey in the background. And then I was listening to another one called
the bag drop and from July, 2021, and you were, you
know, you're pointing out the importance of St. Andrews to your story. And

(08:09):
I immediately thought again, huh. I don't think they've made
a Scotch whiskey style or like a malt whiskey. And I was wondering
about that throughout the research. And then finally I listened to Sipping Social from this
past August. we found that you are,
you do have two malts aging in the warehouse, uh, tracking
it for about a six to seven year age statement. Just a quick status check

(08:31):
Yeah. So, um, just, just a
little, a little bit of a S a S back story there. And I've
never shared this on any interviews, but I do in
retrospect, you know, as, as was done
with, uh, maker's mark, um, regret,
including the E and maybe there's still time to rectify that,

(08:53):
you know, it, it makes sense for our story. Um, and,
um, you know, it's a tribute to, to Scotland and
maybe that's something we could still rectify. Although, to be honest with
you, you know, we seem to receive a letter every year from
makers mark, uh, regarding the red wax on our
vodka bottle, uh, which is just, it's like, it's

(09:19):
Yeah, there's no doubt. So I've invited the
attorneys, which are based out of Chicago, to visit us at our distillery, and
it's all been very amicable. But I
would say the malt story
was probably something, again, that

(09:40):
I wish we had dove further into, although I'll say we've
been making malt whiskey and three oaks since
2012. So it is something that, you know, certainly is a
passion of mine, John and I have since,
you know, been to Scotland together. We took our

(10:01):
daughter Isla, who of course is named after the famous Scotch
region. um, to the Island of Island and traveled
a bit around Scotland. She didn't get to quite appreciate it the same way
that we did given her age. Uh,
but, um, we do have, um, a
couple of malt whiskeys, uh, in barrel and

(10:22):
you're right. They're both, um, about five to seven years old.
Um, and actually we're about to transfer
some of it into some Madeira barrels to finish. And
I think the malt is great, including
a special 100% rye

(10:44):
malt, which doesn't technically meet the
recently completed malt whiskey American
rules, but it's a 100% malted rye that we grew on
our family farm, which is and really
special to me, you know, to include the family history
there, but also we really feel like it's one

(11:07):
of our very best products. And we sell a bit of
that right now. And that's about seven, eight years old as
Yeah. That sounds delicious. I love malted rice and I'm glad to see that
more producers and stilleries are making
use of them. Yeah. wasn't really, I don't know

(11:28):
if it wasn't done for a while, or it wasn't publicized for a while for
sure. But I'm glad people are being open and doing that because
it's some great stuff. And I am
curious not to someone I can ask about this. I
know we, as you said, we had to recently passed sing them all definitions for
America. Finally, Not

(11:50):
perfect, but finally you got something. I'd be
curious if you could either grandfather it or if there's
some other way to do it, because I think of a brand like Amrit.
So any whiskey sold in America and they have a hundred percent, they have
a rye and it's all malted rye. And

(12:10):
it's right there in the bottle. So I'm curious how they market it. I'd have to look back in my
bottle, but there must be a way to get around it to
When it's ready, yeah. So
Bill, I know when you were starting to learn

(12:33):
to distill, you said you spent time at Greggs Distillery. You also
spent time at Lark with Bill Lark at
Colvall over in Chicago. And
just to set the timeline for you guys, you
said on Whiskey Lore with the mutual friend, that there were

(12:55):
so few craft distilleries in the U.S. at the time, like between 250, 300, that it
was fortunate you were able to go to these other distilleries around the world and not
just in the U.S. Do you consider yourself part of that
first wave of Hudson, Koval, even
St. George, which was earlier, or the second wave

(13:20):
I mean, obviously, there was that, you know, very, very
early segment. And you mentioned St.
Yeah, I almost consider like them and like Clear Creek, like
And then, um, I mean, I would say we're probably on

(13:42):
the tail end of the first wave. Um, I think
Koval started in, in 2009. Um,
I was in Tasmania in January of 2010. So
I had actually, you know, obviously been planning through
2009. Um, and. And,
you know, at one point in time, and because I think the

(14:06):
TTB wasn't inundated
the way that they certainly were probably around 2012 and later. you
know, I had some conversations with them just as like, cause I love history.
And I'm like, well, you know, I just kept asking
like, where do we stand in terms of like number of DSPs

(14:26):
in the history of America? And all
I could really gather from them is that, cause numbering's changed
over the years and different accounting methods.
And I don't think anyone's really quite kept track of it
all. But what I did gather is that we were
somewhere around 250 at that time for

(14:50):
beverage alcohol, distilled spirits plants. And
I don't quite know what the number is today, but I hear various things from anywhere
as high as like 3,300 and as low as 2,500, but
somewhere in that range. And so I think that would
give a strong indication that, you know, we were certainly part of

(15:16):
By the time you got started, there were just
a handful, really, but a couple of Michigan distilleries that
Grand Travers certainly stands out for me and
a guy that would, you know, not unlike Bill Lark in
Australia, who specifically had made

(15:38):
the effort to have the law has changed in Australia, then
they call him the, you know, the grandfather of Australian craft whiskey.
And I know that kind of played a big part in Michigan and,
That's exactly what I was going to ask was who, you know, who do you look up to in state?
Because there's always the state regulations. Then

(16:01):
if they have to be changed, and they always have to be changed to
start out. So In addition to that, I know
it seems like I'm jumping around, but I'm just creating context here. You
were also greatly influenced, it sounds like, from Buffalo Trace.
Well, in a way. In a lot

(16:21):
of ways, who wasn't? And you
look back at their amazing history and the
oldest continually running distillery in America. And
at the time, you know, and I still have the
bottle. I bought a bottle of George Stagg from
the antique collection in 2009. I still have, we still have

(16:43):
it and still has whiskey in it. You
know, that bottle is something that certainly
played a huge part in influencing my thoughts on
American whiskey and the history and
heritage and, uh, everything that that distillery represents
certainly, uh, was something that we admired

(17:06):
tremendously. Uh, the longevity, uh, the
quality of the whiskey and as it would happen and, and,
uh, their utilization of wheat as a secondary grain in
a lot of their whiskeys and certainly played a big impact on what we
wanted to do. And then we took it a step further by just doing
a hundred percent wheat whiskey, which ended up being something that,

(17:27):
you know, um, garnered some accolades and I
think perhaps in terms of innovation for
craft distillers certainly I think brands like Corsair
and several others like Balcones when
they had chip were
probably more innovative, but for what

(17:50):
we were doing at the time, you
know, there's just this tried and true tested way
of making whiskey in Kentucky. And I'd
like to think that we played a part in kind of
looking at things a little bit different and being

(18:11):
And I think, you know, experientially, you know,
that was a distillery where you could actually walk around the campus and,
you know, smell the whiskey being made and see
barrels. And which I think in a hospitality perspective
at a time where distilleries were kind of done behind curtains or
behind metal buildings. So I think that just,

(18:38):
I mean, just taking a side note on that. I want
to make sure I'm pronouncing your name correctly, by the way. Joanna Joanna.
Okay. So, you
know, got to respect the name. So, I know with
your background in hospitality, Journeyman was

(18:58):
kind of on the unusual side in that you had hospitality built in as a factor
from the beginning. There are plenty of, call
them first wave, even early second wave American distilleries that
did not do that. They were focused mainly on let's get a product out, let's, and
then we'll figure out that after. Now today, any distillery
that opens pretty much around the world is including

(19:21):
a visitor center at minimum, a bar space that
they can have. So I
should say too, you've got lodging options and
this is at both locations. You've got lodging options, you've got restaurants, golf
putting green at Three Oaks, onsite exclusive
bottlings. Now

(19:45):
that you've had all these years under your belt, and
all the distilleries that you've helped to influence and talk to over the years, how
I think for us, our focus always has been
experiential. And I think a lot of it, again, does stem from Buffalo

(20:05):
Trace and other distilleries that we walked away saying,
wow, that was awesome. That you can actually see the product being
made or be part of the process in some way. So
when Bill first started the distillery search,
the location for our first distillery, You
know, it would have been very easy for him to just build a brand new building that was

(20:28):
retrofit totally for what he needed. But instead, he
was in search of a building with
a history. So I believe he looked at
100 different locations, all in this like Chicago,
Illinois, Indiana. Michigan locations,
and ultimately came across the Featherbone Factory building which was built in

(20:52):
1895. And I think for us, you know, once you walk
into an old building where it had a life of its own.
At one point, to be able to share that story and
bring it back to life. And you know our vessel was making
whiskey. We felt that it was important to do
that. And the other part is, I think in

(21:16):
2010, people didn't know what a distillery was. And
so it's like, how can you make it more inviting? Well, everyone loves
a great cocktail. So let's invite guests in, let's
talk about the distilling with a cocktail in hand, and then
the next. And That's where
we realized, you know, food is such an important part

(21:37):
of this gathering and sharing mentality that is very
much part of whiskey culture. So we added the
restaurant, which then added another layer of
And I do want to, just before we depart Buffalo Trace too, there

(21:58):
are a couple other influences that came
through. Although I do want to mention that it is fascinating to
me that the stag bottle is the one you still have, even though that's not their
And I, you know, I have to look back a couple years ago I did a summer of stag or
September of stag rather, where I had samples of all

(22:19):
the George T stag releases up to that point, and all the stag juniors up
to that point, maybe it was either 2020 or 2021. I
would have to see where the 2009 ranked on there. I don't remember offhand, there was
a lot of whiskey in that month. But one
of the other ways that Journeyman
was influenced was your bottle design. So

(22:42):
I think it's very quietly classic. It's
a squared off beveled bottle
body and then rounded shoulders and
gently sloping to the neck. So, Bill, you described everything as
apothecary style at one point. I
want to know which apothecary you're going to, but still, it's

(23:04):
just a very understated thing that allows for the
label to show off. It allows you to see the whiskey inside, which to me is always, almost
always, I should say, an important thing. And
also just for the bartending community, it's easy to
put on a shelf. It's not too tall. It's not too
demanding in terms of space or a weird shape. It just, it

(23:26):
fits in well, and you can see what it is. So Joanna,
just also touching on something you just said too, that in 2010, people
didn't know what a distillery was. Similarly, I'm
sorry, I keep referring it to Bill because Bill was one on a lot of these podcasts. So
Bill, you told Drew on Whiskeyware that the wheat whiskey at

(23:47):
first didn't really sell well because people didn't know what they were getting
or what it was. I
was going to ask when that changed. I think it changed probably when Fred
Yeah, I mean, we're certainly grateful to Fred for his
Ascot Awards. I would still say,

(24:11):
I mean, he's got
Wheat as a category, I mean, is still,
I guess, how can I put this? Emerging. So
I guess we're still at the forefront of of creating
the wheat category. I mean, obviously Heaven

(24:34):
Hill is kind of, you know, cornered the
wheat market, I suppose, with Burnham. But
we certainly feel like, in terms of quality, that
we're leading that category, and nothing against
any other wheat whiskey brands out there. There's a lot of really good

(24:54):
ones. But for whatever reasons, The
stills in Three Oaks, the water, the combination of everything
that's going on there. And, you know, there seems to be a unique
terroir to the
combination of all those things that has, for whatever reasons,
led to wheat really standing out for us.

(25:16):
So whether the category grows or not, we're
happy to be a big part of it. And certainly,
I guess
some people say, look, the harder you work, the luckier you get.
And I think, if nothing else, we've worked
hard. and maybe

(25:39):
in some ways made our own luck. But certainly I can tell
you the story of when we submitted our wheat whiskey to Fred
and Joanna and
Isla and I were sitting on the couch at our house in
Three Oaks. And honestly, David, I
can tell you that, us winning was the last

(26:01):
thing on our mind. We just said, my gosh, I,
you know, I hope he doesn't spit it out or I hope he, you know,
we thought it was special when we submitted it. We, we
thought it was great, but you know, we're just a bunch of,
you know, yahoos up in Michigan making whiskey.
And, and so we're listening to this live, you know, live

(26:23):
podcast with Fred and, And and he's just
over the moon about it. And and, you know, there's
a special moment for our family and our business. But
I can tell you, like I said, good
things happen when you work really hard. And I think I think that's kind of

(26:45):
I mean, there's a lot of, I'm kind of surprised in a
way that the wheat whiskey, so not weeded bourbon,
but the wheat whiskey market hasn't grown more with the
explosions, even if it's 10 years ago now, of the
Pappy and the Weller, because for
me, it's a step, but it's a relatively

(27:05):
short step to go from a weeded bourbon to at least trying
I'd say that's more of a statement about brand names and
recognition of brand names and less about categories. And,
you know, people are so brand aware.
And while perhaps journeymen may

(27:28):
be known in certain circles, like, you
know, probably would say more along
the lines of whiskey geeks. It's
certainly far from any kind of like brand name.
I'd say that, you know, certain
things like Fred Minnick or other accolades we've won

(27:52):
have certainly created some awareness, but in
terms of a national brand, we're
very far from that. But we, I think, feel like we have a
very strong regional presence in the Midwest, obviously. and
continue to have success and growth in

(28:12):
the Midwest. But there's certainly been a retraction in the
industry, and I'm sure you could probably speak to that far greater than we can.
We're just aware of it and a part of it.
But I think the
whiskey game is playing out a bit like craft brewing
did, and we're seeing a little bit of a retraction. probably

(28:34):
more of an era coming up here of local
whiskey brands, and perhaps some
will become national brands over time, but we're
happy to still be in it. Honestly, when we
got started, it was more about survival and
making it to the next day. So anything good that's

(29:01):
You said on the Coxwell Culture in December 2020, you said you
can't just be local, you got to be good too. So own
your backyard. I've been hearing that since the earliest days of my, the
earliest episodes of this podcast. Own your backyard before you
expand. That's not a bad thing to have the regional presence
kind of leading the way. Definitely will touch on

(29:22):
the contraction in the market. I
want to quickly talk about the facilities themselves. So, you
know, you mentioned Three Oaks as the first place,
the old Featherbone factory. And now
you've got the second space, 140,000 square foot space
in Valparaiso, Indiana. which you've

(29:44):
very amusingly pointed out is a different time zone, which
can cause issues. If you need help for that, there
is on the website, there's a clock under each location. You
have to know which one you're going to. I was
thinking this comes from both a production product and a hospitality side
of things. Three Oaks and Valparaiso are

(30:06):
about 45 minutes apart. So
not a huge distance here. So
I see the positives of if you're using two locations, you
don't have to have a tremendous amount of distance. But
on the other side, I'm curious if there was any concern about
cannibalizing visitorship, or was there enough of you to

(30:30):
Well, very astute. I would say that
you know, our initial get there and just were
certainly our sophistication is lacking in many ways. Um,
ours, our guests of, of how Valparaiso might
impact our three Oaks businesses is that we did not

(30:50):
feel like it would cannibalize three Oaks. Uh, three
Oaks is largely a pseudo, uh,
Chicago, uh, market. Um, And
I suppose, as I say that out loud, in some ways, Valparaiso
is as well. Three Oaks is

(31:11):
Chicago's second home destination, as
well as a significant tourist destination. So
Berrien County, where we're located in Three Oaks, Berrien County,
Michigan. gets about 4 million visitors a
year from a tourist perspective. So a
very different market to Valparaiso, which is more

(31:32):
of a classic Northwest Indiana
town, definitely a bedroom community to Chicago. I
grew up in Valpo and a lot
of my friends lived in Valpo, but
their parents worked in Chicago. So that's been going on
for a very long time, but it's continued to

(31:54):
grow as a lot of people looking
to exit Illinois in particular during COVID, but
certainly, you know, some
degree politics have played a part as well
as, you know, just the taxes in Illinois are
astronomical and you can, You can build a home in Indiana

(32:17):
and pay a third of the tax and
have twice the size of a home. And the
schools are great, and there's a lot of good things happening. And you
can be in Chicago in an hour if you
want. So we've found that to be attractive. Both
John and I lived in Chicago for various times in our lives. And

(32:40):
both of us really love being outside
of the city, but also it's wonderful to have such an amazing asset
just an hour away. So certainly Chicago
has played a major part in
our brand. as a lot of
Chicagoans felt like they discovered Journeymen

(33:03):
as when we opened in 2011 in
a town of a thousand people off the beaten path in
a town and a time. And I like to remind people,
you know, social media was more driven as a personal
type thing, like a, you know, people to people. We

(33:25):
didn't have any billboards at the time. didn't really have much
marketing at all. And as Joanna mentioned earlier, most people came in
and asked, what kind of beer do you have? I mean, So there
was little recognition in what distilling was. And it
was kind of really in many ways being a trailblazer and
being on the forefront of trying to get an industry

(33:48):
off the ground. So that was what was exciting though,
David. I mean, I can tell you as I think back to it and I get the chills, honestly, like
there must've been hundreds of people that reached out
to us during probably a three to five year period
of you know, can I come see your distillery? We think
we want to do this too. And, and you did it

(34:10):
and how did you do it? And I think we got a reputation
in the industry as someone who is very much
willing to open our doors to the public, uh, open
our doors to, to anyone who's interested in getting into distilling. And
I, I always felt like there weren't any secrets other than hard work. And,
uh, And I said, yeah, absolutely. And we

(34:32):
really did have tens, if not hundreds of people
come by looking to get into distilling. And
we were more than happy to welcome them
Yeah. The number of times I've heard guests come on and say, you know, if I knew now what

(34:55):
I, or if I knew then what I knew now, I never would have started this. So people
should appreciate you telling not just the good stuff, but the, you
know, the supply chain shortages, the grain being good or bad, the everything
Well, and who could have predicted what did happen? And, you
know, we all in the distillery, I like to tell people, and

(35:15):
it was on the tail end of the great recession, you know, 2008, maybe it
was the peak, 09, certainly there are effects in
2010. And then, you know, we faced as we all did, you
know, all of us that are here face the pandemic, And
then, you know, just the myriad of various challenges that

(35:38):
came out of that from tremendous inflation, super long lead
times to get various things, you know, a
volatile interest rate environment. you
know, a change in consumer habits and which has
maybe been the most impactful for, for out the alcohol industry.
And I would say that I don't know what's

(36:01):
next, but I mean, I can tell you we're going to survive it because we
survived all that. We're going to survive whatever comes next, but
it's been, it's been, I just say, it's been crazy is probably an
And that's, that's good. I, as a side note, some of
my friends know this, I was recently going through my guest list that I've
had on, because you guys are going to be episode in

(36:23):
the early, in the low 180s, maybe 184 or something. And
that's plus maybe nine or 10 bonus episodes. So I'm getting
close to 200. I wanted to look back because I saw one of my guests from
Brooklyn, Van Brunt Distillery, quietly closed this past
summer and nobody knew about it until

(36:44):
recently when the bottles start showing up on markets and suddenly
everyone wanted them. When I was saying they should have wanted them beforehand, but
I was like, I got to do a post-mortem. I want to check how many of my guests
have not survived until now.
It was only them and J.K. Williams. And

(37:08):
they were in Peoria, Illinois. So there
are a couple that are in receivership, like Waterford Distillery out of Ireland. They're
in kind of a gray zone right now, but I'm not including those until
the fat lady sings. But no,
you're right. There's a lot going on, but you've survived it all so far. With
this expansion to

(37:30):
Valpo. So it's clear, it wasn't just because Bill is your hometown
that you looked there. It had other attributes that you were looking for. This
is back in December of 21. You're talking to American Whiskey Magazine. You
said that in the Valpo location, you plan to have like their transit
center on site, a shared lot for local bus service, potentially hundreds

(37:51):
of jobs created. That was, you know, we're
starting to come out of the pandemic. People are starting to be able to go outside again
and inside again, I should say really. A couple of
years later, now that the location is fully open, have
Yeah. I mean, I would say that probably

(38:12):
no one would have done what we did if they hadn't
been from Valpo. You know, we,
John and I, you know, love history, love the old buildings.
And I think, you know, I've said in recent times
that in Valpo and in Three Oaks,

(38:32):
what we learned through the revitalization of
the actual physical brick and mortar was that it
was also the rebirth, certainly in
Three Oaks, the rebirth of the town, which
had been under state receivership when we came to Three Oaks.
The town was actually under state management because

(38:53):
it had effectively gone bankrupt. That's
something that, you know, when Journeymen came
to Three Oaks, there was certainly some anchor tenants there, like
Dreyer's Meat Market, which had been around for 110 years at the time,
and still is owned and operated by the Dreyer's family. It's iconic,

(39:14):
historic. uh meat market in three oaks
um and then uh certainly froelichs had
been there for 30 years and and had a lot of influence and
success and and some other things like the acorn theater had
recently opened and the vicar's movie theater so it's
a town of a thousand people with a live performance theater and a boutique movie

(39:35):
theater and you know historic uh meat market
incredible assets uh but the town had been
mismanaged and was um in trouble. Journeyman
coming in, I think was, you
know, maybe a little bit more than just a spark. And
really, I think has contributed to

(39:59):
15 years of a boom for the town. Valparaiso, on
the other hand, had already had tremendous success and was
doing very well as a community. I think our
involvement there. As, as I mentioned, the
rebirth of the stories, and the
people is what we've, we've seen with the

(40:21):
revitalization of the actual brick and mortar. There's
a, there's a real pride to the buildings.
And what we found is that they're central to telling the story
of the history of the towns because the buildings have been
there through many, many generations and touched a
lot of different people, people who

(40:43):
worked in these factories, people who
certainly were aware of the buildings as they're both
in the center of the towns. And the
revitalization of that history, I think is critical. And
whether Journeyman is around for
another 20 years or 50 or 100, I

(41:05):
think is somewhat irrelevant. I think the work that we did with these
factory buildings is instrumental to the long-term success
of those communities. Whether they were having success when
we did this or not, I
know that the revitalization of these
buildings is meaningful. and

(41:28):
something that we're proud that we did, regardless
And we're currently at a time where I think so
many of us, and especially the younger, I think we're looking
for a sense of place, like who are we, where are we
from? And I think those are some questions that are being asked, and

(41:48):
I think it's great that we were able to take these gems
of these communities, which had at some
point, you know, we're a beacon but then was forgotten. And
then we were able to bring it back and, you know, we did a ton of
work to bring it back to a place
where it can last another hundred years to continue to tell the story of

(42:11):
of that place. And even last night, we were at a community event
where Bill was asked to introduce the award
recipient. And Bill talked about how his
grandparents had actually worked in the factory building. And it's
just important, I think, to the color of the community and the tapestry.

(42:35):
Sure. So this Valpo location is, it's
significant as it's 140,000 square feet. I
think the previous guests as of this recording may have had about
a thousand square foot location with an expansion to 6,000 square feet.
So, you know, different scale there. I

(43:01):
wanted to throw in this topic. It's a little incongruous, but Go
with me on this. So at, um, three
Oaks, you were using a COTA still, uh, and
at Valpo using Vendome. Um,
first question I had to ask was, uh, what was that wait time

(43:25):
Yeah. Yeah. The wait time at the time, I
think it might've been two years. Uh, now it's probably,
probably, you know, Probably I was still next week. I
don't know. But back then, you know, and
we got the project took five years. In
large part because it was a historic renovation meaning

(43:47):
it was done under the National Park Service it was a. you
know, the building is under the historic registry now. But
that is a very slow and laborious process.
In addition to that, the site was contaminated. There
was, you know, fairly significant environmental contamination

(44:09):
issues in which we had to address and
did address. I mean, that's something we're certainly proud
of. But those things take tremendous amount of time. And
then you throw in a pandemic in the middle of the construction
period, we had a nine month delay, and then and
then things just slowed to a halt in terms of getting a

(44:32):
lot of the raw materials that we needed to finish
the project. And then, as you mentioned, things
like the equipment were quite long lead times.
The building in Valpo was
originally an old woolen mill dating back to the mid-1800s. On
that site, that building no longer exists. The existing building

(44:55):
was the home to a number of manufacturing facilities, most
recently, and what people in town know
the building as as the anchor building which stands for Anderson company
and and they were actually they actually still exist in
another location now but. They
made windshield wipers for Michigan, Detroit

(45:20):
auto manufacturers and actually were quite successful.
Didn't quite have the same sexiness as corsets and buggy
wipes. So the project is 99% American made.
One, obviously the site is in America. Two,

(45:43):
the construction was done by union
workers. The union's very strong in Northwest Indiana. And
then virtually every piece
of equipment or furniture in the
building is American made. From the still being

(46:05):
from Vendome in Kentucky, to the, we
And in fact, even the Amish, local Amish did a lot of
work for us. So we're really proud of
that fact. I mean, I can certainly tell you,

(46:27):
and the quality is there, but you know, we probably paid 20% or
more for everything just, based on
the fact that it was American made. We call the building now.
The American factory building, and that story of American
manufacturing is central to our theme and who we are corsets

(46:48):
and buggy webs first and three oats and oil
and mills and windchill wipers and Valparaiso.
So it's a great story of
who we are as people and how
I think that's a

(47:08):
good intro to the next
topic that I have for you. I'm going to come back to the facility from
a distilling perspective to
talk about the ingrained program. But while
we're on the cost of the American side, as of recording a couple of
days ago, we had the major tariffs go into place with Canada,

(47:29):
Mexico, the EU, a lot of our major trade partners. There's
obviously a lot of information floating out there. It's not
necessarily industry specific. But you
guys are in and you're a major market, multiple major
markets. You're north near, I
don't know if you would call yourselves near the border, but you're closer to the border than a lot of

(47:54):
Right. So I'm curious to
hear from your perspective, particularly from a producer perspective,
what these tariffs are looking like and how they are and
Yeah, I mean, for us, I think, whether we're
fortunate or not, we just, do

(48:18):
very little business outside of the US. We do
sell probably 5% of our revenue comes from Europe. We've
been selling in Europe for quite a while, actually, probably
10 or more years. But the focus has
always been, for sure, the US. Have
never sold anything in Canada. We've sold a little bit

(48:40):
of of whiskey and Australia over the years through
partnerships through my friend Greg, I
would say that the tariff situation.
I mean, I'm certainly no economist. Honestly, probably
know enough about it to fill a thimble. But I

(49:01):
mean, supposedly, it's a free market economy. I'm assuming
things will work their way out here, and probably
in short order. I'd say probably a
lot of this is, you know, posturing and
leveraging and ways of putting

(49:22):
people in position to negotiate and probably
a short term impact. But I don't know. And what
I do know is that In the
short run, all journeymen can do is where a drop
in the whiskey bucket is focused on the things that we can
control. And that is continuing to

(49:45):
make the best whiskey we can make and provide the greatest
experience within our four walls and
do the things that we can manage. So
I certainly, as Joan and I,
have a lot of respect for a lot of our peers who are selling whiskey
and in greater capacities across U.S.

(50:10):
borders feel for them as as there's
you know we've been through this strain once when we were in
the first Trump administration and I guess
I would just say that You know, this is this
is the the nature of business and what we found as

(50:31):
entrepreneurs is it's about 10 times
harder than I think probably 100 times harder than
we ever thought it would be. And in
particular, I think, in craft distilling, because I
still would argue a somewhat unproven, unknown
world of this new industry. It

(50:54):
still remains to be seen how craft
distilling will will play out in all
of this. And I
think what we can say is that during the last 15 years that
we've faced significant challenges. And I think most
of us, as you've pointed out, almost all of us have

(51:16):
had the grit and fortitude and resilience to
persevere through some of the most challenging environments ever
seen in in the history of business, given
what we've all kind of gone through over the last 15 years. It's actually

(51:37):
about the tariff situation, David, will be just like that. I
think we'll see everyone adapt, get creative, change
and shift directions and do whatever is needed to be
done to navigate the challenging
And certainly to, there was

(51:57):
a shift in the whiskey market in particular and whiskey producing fields
a couple of years ago, I would say, where you
had the, and this does tie back to that, to what you just said,
it was that first era when a lot of people were
sourcing who weren't distilling themselves, they were sourcing a
lot from MGP and, which

(52:20):
I don't have a problem with, it was just the same problem everyone else had, which was, make
it known. And then
a lot of people started stealing their own things. That
was that five-year wait time at Vendome at one point for
a still. That's when Kote, Carl,
not so much Forsythe, they had just as long of a wait time, but these different still

(52:42):
makers, Friuli in Italy coming
in. So you started to see a lot of different stills. Then
There's kind of a new phase. I feel like in the last three
years or so where a lot
more contract is selling has been happening. Now it's been happening for
years at MGP, it's been happening for years at Bardstown Bourbon Company. I

(53:06):
mean, they were built to contract distil and
make their own stuff kind of on the side, even though their own stuff is at
a higher percentage now than I think they had planned. We've
also got, you know, Whiskey House of Kentucky opening up, huge
facility. Green River has opened up a lot more
of their facility for contract. Now at

(53:26):
Valpo, there's that ingrained program
that I mentioned before. So this is a program for contract stilling. It's
on the Vendome copper still, and this wasn't a small copper
still, by the way, this is a significant, like it's not a Jack Daniels size. I'm not
gonna say that, but it's not a small one either. I'm

(53:47):
just curious from a production standpoint, as you're growing and
adapting to the market right now, trying
to remain regional without overstretching yourselves. With
the introduction of the contract distilling program, are you looking for
this to be a long term, like there will always be
a contract distilling capacity? Or is it

(54:08):
kind of a semi-temporary thing
while you build up to what your overall ultimate capacity
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, and a bit of
perspective as you've provided, when we
started this project and now it's been seven
years, it took five years to complete it. We've been open for

(54:30):
18 months, so call it six and a half years.
You know, we were in the heart of a booming industry six
and a half years ago. And contract distilling certainly
made a lot of sense at that point in time. And as
you put it, the thought was, well, we could, as
by the way, we had never advertised it, but we had been

(54:52):
doing contract distilling all the way along,
really from the very beginning. As I mentioned, we would have
a myriad of people come through the distillery looking to build
a distillery. And a lot of them said, I'm not going to do this, but
they had an interest in having us make some spirits
for them. So the contract distilling piece, it wasn't like we

(55:16):
were building Valpo to get started in that industry. It was something
we had been doing all along and just wanted to continue to
grow. And as you put it, The
idea there was, you know, if we could effectively
lease out the still in a way, and then we get some use of it

(55:37):
to build our own brand, kind of using the
contract distilling piece to offset some of our costs and the
overhead. And of course, as we found
out, David, and You know, I mean,
this is the big boy world, right? Where you spend
money, take risks, and sometimes things don't

(55:57):
work out the way you hoped. The
industry is slowed and the
guys, your MGPs and some of the entities that you've
already mentioned. That is their core business. And
they're, I can tell you, certainly protecting their assets

(56:18):
and creating an environment where I would say
that, you know, they're trying to
capture 100% of the contract business. We
feel like you know, we're
thankful that we've diversified and that was
always part of our strategy with the restaurants, event spaces,

(56:40):
even the putting green and three oaks and some of the different things
that we've done. Um, and, uh, certainly
contract distilling was a piece of that idea of diversification. Uh,
but the guys in, in Lawrenceburg and
in Kentucky, are trying to corner the market for
sure during this period. I think

(57:02):
we're gonna have to see another growth period in distilling and
we may very well see that maybe sooner than we're thinking to
see contract distilling probably expand beyond
some of those few massive producers. I
think the one thing that we really feel like that we have
a competitive advantage on is is the sustainability piece,

(57:26):
which is becoming more and more of an interest to younger generations, where
we've been creating certified organic and kosher
and gluten-free whiskey and spirits now for
15 years. And I'd say that also the other piece
of it is experiential destination locations that
we feel like we're at the very center of. As well

(57:49):
as when people do engage with us
in contract distilling, you know, they feel like they have a
home where, and I've been to
the places that you've referenced in
many ways, they're more of a a
factory. And when people come to Journeyman, you

(58:11):
know, there's a massive hospitality component and it
And for me, it continues our spirit that we've had from day one,
where it's, hey, you're interested in distilling or learning
about this or building your own Nashville. We invite
them in and it still feels like what it was

(58:33):
15 years ago when we started, where we get to learn together,
work together and be more creative. And
Sure. And yeah, I would say with the perhaps with the exception of
Bardstown Bourbon Company. Yeah, these other places are being built
as factories. MGP, I still have to get

(58:56):
there. I'm not there yet. Whiskey House Kentucky have done the virtual there
because there's just nothing really to see. It's meant
to be a factory. Bill,
you introduced the concept that you guys are organic
and kosher. You said gluten-free as
well, but I'm going to put that aside just because I hadn't done the research on that. So with

(59:17):
the organic and kosher side, One
of these is a little more formally recognized than the other. And before anyone
throws a rock at me, I will explain that. I
was curious how much of the kosher
certification was because of Koval's

(59:44):
No, I mean, for me, you know, for us, I
grew up actually in the metropolitan Detroit area, in
a community where I think in sixth,
seventh, in seventh grade, I went to two to three bar or bat
mitzvahs every weekend. So the kosher part
was, you know, it's very much part of, you know, how I grew up

(01:00:06):
as well. I'm not Jewish. However, I had
relatives and extended relatives that were, And I mean,
this may be silly, but I wanted us to be their temples like
kosher whiskey. You know, that was one of the one of the reasons.
It's an untapped market or semi-untapped. There are a couple of
people who do it, but not a lot. And to

(01:00:28):
explain what I introduced earlier, and I think you, you guys know this. Uh,
so, cause I didn't see shock, uh, shock registrar on your faces when I
said it is that with the kosher certification, um, organic
is set by. Not only USDA, but
also other organizations besides that governmental oversight,
the kosher side is. Long

(01:00:50):
story short, you get a rabbi or someone similar who is
basically registered
or certified to say something is kosher, has to
adhere to a certain number of rules by Jewish law, but
it's not hard and fast in the same way. You

(01:01:10):
can have two people who are certified to certify things as
organic, excuse me, as kosher, one will do
it and one will say no. So it's not like
a hard and fast thing. So that's why I said it was a little less formally
recognized. So again, no rock throwing here. So,
but I like that backstory a little more. I hadn't heard that in any

(01:01:33):
of the research and that makes so much sense though to have like,
because what I did hear in the research was that there wasn't a
huge demand for kosher whiskey. Like,
there wasn't a huge Jewish community where you were in Aleppo or
Yeah. New Jersey as well. Or certainly California. Right.

(01:01:55):
But, but otherwise, like not, especially for a brand that was looking to own
their backyard and their region, it wouldn't have
been top of mind, I think. Right. So that,
that fills in a lot of the gaps for me, Joanna, your backstory there.
Yeah, it's obviously, you know, kosher whiskey is meant to, you know,
be certified to comply with Jewish dietary laws. And I

(01:02:17):
think in many ways, for
me at least, and I think Joanna as well, is it's a
statement of quality. And I think that's always been our positioning, you
know, both with organic, kosher, a
statement that, you know, we're going to
the greatest lengths to make the

(01:02:39):
highest quality ingredients or
use the highest quality ingredients in making our spirits. Certainly
for me, this seems like a long time ago, but I
was a vegetarian for 10 years and was
during the, start of the distillery

(01:03:00):
and, you know, I had a focus on health
and quality food. And I
think a big piece of the organic kosher statement is
that we are basically
being supportive of, of, of really small niche

(01:03:20):
industries. Uh, both of those, uh, in
which, um, almost, well, all
of the grain that we buy is from small, uh,
family owned and operated farms. And I knew like from
day one, like we didn't want to buy
grain from the Monsanto's of the world. We wanted, um, uh,

(01:03:42):
organic grains from local family farms. And
when we've written those checks to the grain providers, that's
certainly a good feeling. In keeping money local
and writing checks to people who are, you
know, doing really hard work and great work

(01:04:03):
and growing the grains that we use. And we've
had a lot of people come through the distillery, as you might imagine, over
all the years, David, and a lot of top distillers. And
to a T, including a
lot of great people out of Kentucky and even
Canada, The

(01:04:25):
statement has been, this is the best grain that I've ever
seen anyone use in a distillery. And so
I think that, you
know, using the analogy of baking a cake, using
the very best ingredients generally is
a better starting point than using inferior ingredients.

(01:04:49):
And we feel like we've got a leg up with certified
So the products themselves, we're going to cover that a little more online.
That's going to be well offline for now, but it'll be online when I put
up some of the tasting notes and stuff. But one that I wanted to call out

(01:05:09):
at the moment is what we are both sipping on, which is
this high rye bourbon whiskey, seven years old.
We've got the same batch. So it's 59.2%, 118.4 proof. And
I said this before we started recording, this thing that stuck out to
me the most about it was that it didn't have a name. You

(01:05:31):
know, you've got Last Feather Rye, you've got the
Courses, Whips, and Whiskey. You've got all
these different, everything seems to, you know, the Field Series, the Farm Series that
you're doing as well. Yeah, no name for
That's a good question. And I don't know if I have a great answer. I

(01:05:53):
think, you know, it's kind of a new line for
us. One, it was our first age statement. Now we've been
selling our farm rye, which was, I mentioned earlier, grain
grown on the family farm that we malted and is seven,
eight years old. So it's certainly old enough to have an
age statement, but This is the first age statement.

(01:06:16):
You know, there's something about seven, right, especially in the
whiskey industry, age seven years. I
think we wanted to just keep it clean and simple. And in
a way, as I'm talking through this, it's
a new era for journeymen. So maybe this
label, which is very

(01:06:38):
nondescript, I've
always felt like the fancier something is,
what's wrong with it, right? Why does it have to
have the bells and whistles and the gold foil and this and that and
the other thing? And I thought, let's create the most simplest
label possible because it's about the whiskey. This

(01:07:05):
label is, I'll be honest, we
print them in-house. It's honestly
something we weren't even going to distribute, but the
interest in the product has led us to starting
to sell this in the marketplace. And in a

(01:07:25):
lot of distilleries, I think you trial things on site and
see how people respond to them. The
whiskey is great. It's, as
you pointed out, it's not a
weeded whiskey. It's 60% corn
and 40% rye. And it was an experimental

(01:07:48):
batch that we did. We did a lot of experiments to
I mean, I'm really enjoying it. I just cracked it before we came
onto recording. I'll do a more formal tasting another time.
But at this point, I would just say I really am enjoying it. It's

(01:08:09):
No, it's very
drinkable. And I'm just really enjoying
it. But just in comparison to your other labels, I immediately
thought as soon as I opened the box that It
was like going from like a Fruit Loops label to

(01:08:29):
the generic cereals that Chris Rock makes fun of.
It's like black background or dark slate gray background, white
lettering. This is high ride bourbon whiskey, age seven years, cast strength, journeyman
distillery. So had
We really believe in storytelling. I mean, so I think all of

(01:08:50):
our previous labels tried to tell a
story on the label. And honestly,
this label, we got the idea for it when we took Isla to
the island of Isla, which, of course, you know, We can take a
nine-year-old cute little girl to a place where
her name comes from. And all those people on the island of

(01:09:12):
Islay thought it was absolutely adorable. But
we went to Lefroeg as well as
several other distilleries on the island. But
at Lefroeg, they had a tasting room.
pretty small, actually quite modest. And they
had a back bar with probably a dozen products on it.

(01:09:34):
You know, all their classic labels and
some distillery only things. And then at the end, the last bottle
had a white label, basically said
Lafroigue on it. And, you know, maybe the proof or
something. And we just sat there and watched.
Everybody in the bar was going, what's in

(01:09:56):
that? And so this label that we created for
the bourbon high rye was
a little bit of a tribute to that label thinking.
Well, what is it? It's so nondescript. It
must be good. And by the way, the Freud that was

(01:10:17):
in the nondescript white label was fantastic. And we
I'm still working my way to Lefroy. I enjoy Pete. I
really do. That's just like
that next level. I can do Octomore. That's okay. But
there's something, you know, you know about Lefroy. There's something medicinal about

(01:10:38):
that. I just can't quite. get there yet. The
only one that I've been able to so far in the last couple of years was the Carchus
PX release from a couple of years ago, because there was just so
much Sherry. But I've got a pack from a
friend and patron of the podcast, he knows who he is, to try
to get me on the train. And if I'm not on the train after trying these, then try

(01:11:01):
again in a couple of years. Because five,
Some people say it's an acquired taste. Honestly, that's what got me into
whiskey. It was Isla whiskeys. And I, I
was drinking those like right out of the gate and just loved them. And other people,
you know, say it's an acquired taste and some people never, never love
them. But I think, I don't know, I

(01:11:24):
got started on it and, and have loved it ever since, but.
Yeah, I know a few people who have, that was their first one. I think Mark
Gillespie at Whiskeycast, I think was on Art Bank
10, if I'm correct, was his first one. And that's been, you know,
if you live in Scotland and you grow up in Scotland or the UK,

(01:11:44):
that's a different story. But if you're an American and your first is an
Isle of Whiskey, that's a little different. And we're talking like strong,
I don't count Johnny Walker Black or something. I had that. It's got a little smoke,
Well, and fun story, when we built Three
Oaks in the still there, we
buried a bottle of Laphroaig in the concrete

(01:12:08):
under that still in Three Oaks. And then when we built Valpo
under the Vendome there, You know, in Three Oaks, we didn't
have any of our own whiskey, so all we had was this
bottle of Lafroig, and then in Valpo,
to continue the tradition, we buried
another bottle of Lafroig, and then also, obviously, buried

(01:12:31):
a bottle of Journeyman. So under the stills,
there's a little cavity of little
I love it. So
one thing of the products themselves that it came up
in a podcast that was done, it was not either of you on

(01:12:54):
there. So it was Matt McLean and Tom Balich,
where the guest is key in the lake in April 2020. So
we're talking the month after shutdowns and all this. And
one of the things I suggested was that No
one really knew what the production changes were going to be long-term at that point, but

(01:13:15):
due to COVID, there might be a
gap a couple of years out. And I've
asked a number of distilleries who are operating at that time at a
certain scale, are you seeing
that? And at about the age of the product that you're talking about where your products are
getting to five to seven years, if not a little older, did

(01:13:42):
Um, what, what were Tom and Matt do doing
I've heard
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I
mean, cause we spent, you know, we probably had two
months of, of making hand sanitizer

(01:14:05):
and then, um, didn't have much of a
gap. Honestly, it was probably that two months and that was it.
So there was a gap, but not enough to be
I mean, that's good. That is
kind of what I've heard across, but I like asking people because you

(01:14:25):
never know. And once you have that gap, if you're it's
the nature of craft whiskey. If you're like a couple of years out, that's
when you're starting to grow. And, you know, you've been through this process where you're, you're
on that curve and you're hitting a point and suddenly you have this drop
So, yeah, I mean, one
thing that John and I've always liked is that, you

(01:14:47):
know, we could always wake up in the morning. We knew how much whiskey we had.
We weren't you know, we weren't at
the mercy of another producer. Um, and
I would say that's still been a benefit to us. And I think maybe
in some way it is during, you know, probably 2012, the maybe
2018, the, maybe our growth was somewhat

(01:15:10):
governed because of limitations of our distillation
volumes. But, um, I'm happy that
we made a lot of whiskey during that period and actually
continue to make a fair amount of whiskey. It seems
that having the

(01:15:32):
availability of whiskey has allowed our brand to
grow, but also at the same time, it's a
great asset and good times are bad. And
there's, there's
real value to it. So I think
it's been smart of our brand, at least, to continue to

(01:15:54):
make whiskey and put it in a barrel and have it maturing. And there'll
be ebbs and flows and ups and downs in the
whiskey industry. And that's where I think you'll see some more and
more and more age statements because inventories are growing because
it's not selling. So you're going to see more age
statements and that's going to be a benefit to the consumer and possibly

(01:16:15):
will spark probably another big run
in whiskey. I think we're optimistic about
the industry despite many challenges, but I
think you know, perhaps some of our younger audience
out there, maybe they're not into three
and four year old whiskey, but they will be into some great

(01:16:37):
seven to 10 year old American whiskey. So we'll see how
the market develops, but things have a way of taking care
For me, my own insight just as a consumer is I'm kind
of, I don't think we're going to hit the level
of the glut that we had in the 50s and 60s. We're going to have a

(01:16:57):
glut because especially the big producers, like I said, they've been producing at
such a high level in volume. There's
going to be a lot there. We're seeing a
cut down certainly at the premium level. The
100 plus, 150 plus dollar bottles are sitting
on shelves and that's been going on for a couple of years and accelerating. But

(01:17:18):
yeah, I think both of you referenced this earlier that
the local places are going to survive best, ones
who have really local support and investiture. just
interest, most of all, that the local community is interested. And
also, I don't see what also happened

(01:17:41):
in the 50s and 60s where people went over to clear liquors and
bourbon became like your grandfather's drink and it wasn't hip
enough for you. I think it's still going to be very popular. People
are just going to get pickier about what they want. Or options.
Yeah, more often. And so that's good news for the industry as a whole, and especially for craft
that they're going to really pick and choose where they spend their dollars. And

(01:18:04):
hopefully, it's on their local and their craft distilleries. But
anyway, that's me pontificating. So
I've got to do two more
questions for you. Just for time
sake. The last question I'd like to ask everybody is
about legacy. I know we've spoken a bit about it in

(01:18:26):
terms of the buildings and bringing back
stories, but I want to ask it again in a different term. But
before that, we mentioned earlier the impact that Fred
Minnick has had on those who do know
about journeymen outside of the region. know a
lot because he's a big fan and he has, I

(01:18:47):
think, rightfully awarded a lot of accolades on you
through himself and through the Ascots. You
know, just a couple things like 2020 getting, of course, Whips and Whiskey being
best of 2020, consecutive best in shows of the Ascots in
22 and 23, it was. And,
you know, they're, these are very high accolades and it for

(01:19:11):
for whatever crap Fred gets thrown his way. Sometimes,
I do trust his palate and I think he is not just
putting up things for S's and G's. So, that
being said, you know, you're, you're not entering every show
Um, besides like Fred and

(01:19:32):
the Ascots, how do you approach which
competitions you like to enter? And, um, you
Yeah. I mean, um, we're, we are picky, uh,
one, I mean, they're expensive. So
we're, you know, budgeting every year

(01:19:56):
how much we might spend. And usually we're picking one,
maybe two competitions a year. And, and,
and because of the expense, honestly. And
then the second piece there,
in terms of where we

(01:20:16):
go, I mean, there's a perception. You know,
I think, you know, all whiskey
ratings aren't equal. And so we're generally
trying to to go where we think the
best, not
the best results, but the most strict, competitive,

(01:20:39):
strict voting. I mean, we want to win things or
do well in things where there's a lot of competition.
know, we want to win on a national level, not necessarily winning
the, the local, you know, three Oaks whiskey award.
There is no such thing. Maybe we should start that distillery. Yeah.

(01:21:02):
Yeah. We want to gain
guys. Congratulations. Uh, but, um,
I would say in terms of leaving, you know, you mentioned legacy and
it's funny you mentioned that because, uh, um, one
of our, um, you know, core values is leaving
a lasting legacy. And what

(01:21:25):
we've seen in the buildings, I'll keep it brief, is
that people walk in there all the time and say, you know, my
grandpa used to work here, or my great grandfather
in Three Oaks, and there's a tremendous amount of
pride in people. And so I started saying,
you know, some, this is when we just had three oats. I said, someday they're going

(01:21:46):
to walk in here and there's going to be a, cause we have a photo of, of
all the workers from the Feathermont factory from 1923 on the wall.
And I pointed out and I say, someday there's going to be a photo of us
here. And people are going to say, there was a distillery here and, and your,
you know, airs your, your, uh, uh, The
family is gonna walk in here and go my there's my you

(01:22:08):
know great great grandmother she used to work at a journeyman and
then it turned into well why. maybe we can be here
in a hundred years, not us, but the
business. And that's where
this idea of leaving a lasting legacy. And you know,
in a world where people, I think people stay at a job for

(01:22:29):
a year, that's like five years now, you know, one
year is equivalent to five in the old days, if
maybe 10 in hospitality. And
I think it's this idea that, our commitment to
the business is that it will be here in 100 years and your family
can walk in here and go, you know,

(01:22:51):
my grandfather and my great grandfather or my great grandmother
built this place. Like it's it's it's more than,
you know, I went and worked at Amazon or no
disrespect to anyone who works at Amazon. But I mean, it's
it's different in the size of the business. and

(01:23:12):
what we're trying to achieve, very different goals
from what Amazon's probably trying to achieve. So I
think there is a point of pride in working in
our business and it's not easy. It's a
hard industry and all aspects of what we do
is challenging. And I think there

(01:23:33):
is, I think some satisfaction in
Mm hmm. And, you know, we when
we first started, we had a team of four of
us, and then it quickly grew to 12 and 20. And
then now we're close to 400. And, you know, one

(01:23:54):
of the things I always share with every team member, if they have a question
about something, you know, I ask, is it going to
be relevant from in 100 years from now? You
know, because our goal is to be around for 100 years, and next year will be another 100 years and
another 100 years. So And
that was from the building build out to,
you know, using quality. So that lasts a hundred years to

(01:24:17):
everything we do. So that's kind of been for me kind
of a compass in decision making. I mean, we want to
make the best quality whiskey because I want it to be enjoyed,
you know, and talked about a hundred years. I mean, hopefully not
a hundred year old whiskey, but if there's
Right. And I

(01:24:42):
like the idea of having the photo of the workers there. Hopefully the
photo of the journeyman staff is more
like that and not like the end of The Shining. But
I know she's too young to officially be
in the business yet, but Will, do

(01:25:08):
Um, I just hope that she, uh, like
any good parent would say, find something that she loves to do.
And if that means, uh, she finds, you
know, benefit and enjoyment and carrying on the family business.
Um, I think it would be worthwhile to her and I
think it would be meaningful. Sometimes it's hard to talk to,

(01:25:31):
you know, 20 year old kids. I'm sure about, you know, what they're
going to want to do. But I hope
she finds satisfaction in it. And if she does, and if
Joanna and I are good enough stewards of the business and
brand, there'll be something for her to

(01:25:52):
manage when that time is. And if she decides not
to, I think both Joanna and I would be happy for
if she finds another path. And it
doesn't mean that Journeyman won't continue or that
maybe she would be part of it later on down the road. But

(01:26:14):
I think I think probably the
greatest satisfaction. I just talked to a guy who in
Valparaiso who has a pretty substantial business and
his three boys are working in it. And I actually talked to him last night
and I said, is that the greatest satisfaction for you having
your kids in the business? And he said, yes. And I think

(01:26:36):
that's a big part of why we do it, because, you
know, you want your kids to be around. But
certainly, her happiness is something
that is more important than the business. So
we'll see what happens. But and we're not
going to give it to her. She's going to have to work for

(01:27:01):
You guys are you're neither of you are you know, you're not you're
Yeah. If you need a backup plan for for
legacy there for passing on people. Yeah,

(01:27:24):
So, you know, there are so many more questions to ask.
But for now, Bill and Joanna, thank you so much for
spending the time talking about journeyman distilling, distillery, journeyman
distillery, excuse me. They're using distilling and distillery. So
many places using either one. And honestly, it's driving me crazy because I don't know what

(01:27:52):
And I'd love to hear it. And I think this
episode should be going live on April 30th, which
will be a couple of days after you have announced the winner of
your name is still competition. Yes. Yes.
I mentioned that the voting's already closed. It was closed on three

(01:28:12):
twenty seven. So, you know, you're not missing
the entries here. I'm hoping you don't end up with still a mixed still face,
you know. I
bet, I bet, you know, and you gotta look you gotta honor what happens but
hopefully, you know, it's

(01:28:33):
a name that that will either honor
the still or make it a really good story one way or the other. But,
you know, a lot more things coming down the line as well. You've got anniversaries, you've got
exclusive bottlings, just the distillery locations that sound,
you know, amazing. I'm going to have to get out there. Hopefully we'll be getting out there if

(01:28:54):
I can do it later this year. to your area. As always,
in the show notes, there'll be ways you can like, follow, subscribe to
Journeyman on all your social media platforms. And
yeah, hang on with me for a minute after recording. This has been another
episode of the Whiskering Podcast. Thank you, everyone. Again, like, rate, and subscribe wherever you

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Ep. 186: Journeyman Distillery with Founders Bill and Johanna Welter

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