Ep. 192: Boulder Spirits with Founder Alastair Brogan

Episode Transcript
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David Levine (00:00):
Hey, folks, Welcome to a new episode of the

(00:02):
whiskey ring Podcast. Today. I'mtalking to a distillery that
unfortunately just missed whileI was out in Denver, but I will
be back at some point to visitthis distillery based in
Boulder, is coming off of a bigwin, having just won the 2025
world whiskeys awards inKentucky, winning for World's
Best Small batch bourbon fortheir 2024 cask strength. Here

(00:24):
to talk about it is the founder,Owner, Alistair Brogan of
Boulder spirits. Alistair,welcome

Unknown (00:30):
on. Hi David and thanks. Thanks for having me on
tonight.

Absolutely thrilled to have you on. So
let's jump right in with theboulder spirits. So there's
boulder spirits and vapordistillery

Unknown (00:45):
Yeah, so we're going to go back a little bit of history
there. So boulder spirits is theline of products that we sell,
mainly whiskey. And then vapordistillery is the actual DBA
location. So that's the actualdistillery itself. So production
facilities, vapor distillery,that's the DBA, and Boulder

(01:07):
spirits is the range of spiritsthat we produce. And that all
came about because, and we'llget more into it regarding my
history, but it really cameabout because there was a
trademark issue before I beforeI got involved with the
business, therefore, we're justworking our way out of that kind
of thing. So as a lot of craftdistilleries have trademark

(01:30):
issues, but yeah,

for sure. So with that, let's you know most of the
questions that I ask on here aregoing to be hopefully new to
you, but I always start out withwhat was the origin story for
both spirits and vapor.

Unknown (01:47):
So one of the first DSPs in Colorado was vapor
distillery. Uh, it's under thethe business Zephyr spirits, if
people want to look up the DSP.And that was way back in 2007
and we're one of the first inColorado. Now there's about 120
craft distilleries in Colorado,and we were a gin company. This

(02:09):
was before I was involved. Andwe do some spectacular gin, we
do a new American gin, we do acast age gin, we do pink gin, a
navy strength gin. And I cameover from Scotland in 2012 and
decided that I wanted to try andmake the very best American
Singapore whiskey I could. And Ibrought a for size copper Costel

(02:33):
with me, as well as my Americanwife and two very young Scottish
born children of one three. Soit was a huge life change, big
change of career. And initiallyI was only going to be doing the
distilling as a hobby, but I metup with Ted Palmer, who was the
Zephyr spirits DBA vapordistillery, and he's made some

(02:57):
fantastic gins, and I brought mystill into his location in those
days, was a lot easier to buyinto license than go through the
rigmarole of getting a license,although I must say it's a lot
easier now. And started layingdown whiskey, and started laying
down single malt whiskey, veryquickly I realized I had to lay

(03:18):
down bourbon as well, but that'sanother story. And after five
years, when the whiskey wascoming online, Ted retired, I
took the business over. Now thebusiness is 100% one by myself,
and we really focus on AmericanSingapore whiskey.

I'll come back to that later about having to do
the bourbon. So yes, when I'mcurious here, because I think I
had a timeline wrong in my noteshere, that I'm realizing, which
was that, basically, you know,when you came on with with
Boulder and vapor, so when youwere looking for a place, as you

(04:05):
mentioned, your wife isAmerican. You're living in
Scotland. You yourself areGlaswegian. So I've heard you
say when you were looking for aplace in the US, for you in the
family, you were looking forkind of like a Goldilocks zone
of not too hot, not too cold,not too dry, not too wet.
Colorado seemed to fit the bill.On this was that it sounds, from

(04:29):
what you just said, though, thatyou moved to Boulder because, in
part, at least because thedistillery was there, you're
going to be part of it and allof that. Is that right, or am I
skipping a step?

Unknown (04:42):
Well, you know when, when my wife decided to move to
the our first thought is we weregoing to bring up a family, and
we looked to the US, and with,to be honest, limited knowledge,
my wife was from Pennsylvania,in Watley, Florida, we just knew
we didn't want it to be too hot,too cold, too. Crowded or
hurricanes and tornadoes, sothat actually, you know,

(05:04):
completely negates the north,the south, the West and most of
the east and Colorado, somewherewhere I had been many, many
times, and it just started togrow that this was maybe the
place we wanted to go. The craftdistilling scene was, was was
vibrant. And I think it was amatch between where we wanted to

(05:26):
bring a family up, and then alsosomewhere where we could make
some fantastic whiskey. And themicroclimate in Colorado is is
incredible. It has incredibleimpact on the whiskey. So, you
know, we, we both decided thatColorado was the location we
wanted to come to, and that wasback in 2012 but I hadn't

(05:47):
decided on joining up with Tedwith the gin. I was going to
just do it myself, find thelittle room, make my whiskey,
sit for five years, four or fiveyears, and then launch it and
but I met Ted, Ted, ex Navychap, meticulous, ex Brewer. And

(06:07):
I just thought, Whoa, this couldbe really, really good. And it
was a great partnership and agreat resolution when he wanted
to retire. So everything sort offitted in, but I ended up a
bigger setup than a hobby, and abigger setup than I actually
thought I was going to getinvolved in, which was good in
one hand, challenging inanother,

for sure, I mean, you obviously far be it for me
to question the the wordingchosen. One of the sources I was
looking at was authoritymagazine back in December of 21
you were saying before you cameon and started distilling, you
did research, you took courses,you had interned at isle of

(06:52):
Aaron. And I'm thinking tomyself, I'd heard you use the
word hobby before, and I'm like,this is a lot of investment for
a hobby.

Unknown (07:02):
Absolutely, you're right. I interned at our end
distillery. They were the fewthat would actually take me on,
because it was always insuranceand employment insurance
problems. So I ended up workingwith them for about six weeks.
And I've got a couple of friendswho were masters of stillers in
Scotland, and they really helpedme sort of make that decision.

(07:26):
And whether, you know how I wasgoing to organize myself, what
kind of still I did all theresearch before, and I decided
certain aspects of whether it bethe ingredients, etcetera, it
was going to be almost standard,because I didn't have a long
background. I wasn't a brewerbefore. I wasn't a distiller
before, so I did a huge amountof research before I came in.

(07:50):
And yeah, you're right, I had toput my hand in my pocket way
more than I had hoped to do overthe last few years. Yes, laying
down the whiskey

and just jumping back a little bit as well, this
is all to the to the history ofit. As I said, Your Glaswegian
grew up in Scotland. This isalso your third career in the
military, ran a business. Sothis is really, you know, third
go round. You've talked aboutgrowing up in Scotland, and how

(08:22):
growing up there instilled alove of, I don't want to say
love of whiskey, because I don'tknow if you're drinking that
early, but like, you know, alove of whiskey and being
around, and love distilling froma young age, because it was just
around. And I'm curious ifthat's just, if that's a
widespread phenomenon ofScottish children, like they're
all dreaming of having adistillery one day.

Unknown (08:46):
I don't, I don't think so. I mean, a bit like Kentucky
being known for their bourbon,and the state of Kentucky being
one of the biggest producersScotland, because of that word
Scotch were allowed to use,whereas bourbon, I think being
brought up in Scotland, it's abit being brought up in

(09:06):
Kentucky, it's all around youall the time. Scotland's a small
country. We've got 5 millionpeople the size of Colorado,
but, you know, we got 141there's been a couple of
closures recently, but 141distilleries, big distilleries,
and grain distilleries, singlemalt whiskey distilleries. So
it's all around, you know,though I lived in lowlands, you

(09:28):
know, you were passingdistilleries all the time.
There's a lot of friends andfamily who maybe would work in
distilleries or work part timedistilleries. So it was there.
And, you know, most of the dadswhen I was in high school, had a
cabinet full of single maltwhiskeys. So it was there. It
was all around, not muchbourbon, but certainly single

(09:48):
malts all the time. So yeah,you're you're brought up with
it, but I think it's only whenyou leave Do you realize maybe
the impact that had and how muchthere was. Was, or how much the
Scottish economy, for example,relies on whiskey, as you know,
the Kentucky economy does, forsure,

just jumping into one other thing that you said,
you said you have a couple offriends who are master
distillers this kind of comeabout because of the internship
at Aaron, or was pre existing?And had you know, had you become
friends with a bunch of mastersdistillers,

Unknown (10:31):
I think it was not necessarily pre existing. I got
to know more people as I gotinvolved in internship, as I got
involved with buying the still,I looked at a couple of
consultants, but really, Ididn't want to go down that
route. And then there was a chapcalled Andrew Shand who worked
for a multitude of distilleries.He was the one that started

(10:55):
Virginia distillery, forexample. He worked in a couple
other distilleries. He worked 40years in Scotland, and now he is
running the only single maltwhiskey distillery in South
Korea of all places, calledThree societies.

So they're going to be my next guest, actually.
So

Unknown (11:15):
you are kidding, Andrew is a great guy, and he
significantly helped. He's got,there's a lot that the whiskey
industry has got to be thankfulfor him in the US. He was one of
the first to sit down and reallybash out what American single
malt whiskey was going to be inAmerica. And he's now, in fact,

(11:36):
when you speak to me, he marrieda South Korean lady, and he's
now, you know, happily settledin in South Korea. But yeah,
he's a great he's a great guy.You'll have a great time with
him.

Looking forward to it, yeah, I'm gonna be talking
with with Brian, but, I mean,Andrew's gonna be a part of the
conversation, for sure. Nicequestion, whether he's gonna be
there, not, but, yeah, we'llsee. So, moving to Colorado, and
what this distillery has hasbecome, I'm curious, from

(12:10):
talking with your masterdistiller friends and just
people in the industry thatyou've known and gotten to meet,
and this can be distillers,still makers, consultants, I
just kind of a blatant question.What do you think of this? Some
like similarities or differencesbetween distilling in Scotland
versus

Unknown (12:31):
Colorado with what I'm doing, other than all the
difference in the equipment andor the process I'm doing exactly
how they make single whiskey inScotland, literally, exactly as
is most Singapore whiskeydistilleries, outside of the
outside of the Scotland, in theUS. You know, we're doing a mash

(12:55):
of 100% multi barley. We'reusing a yeast, and not really,
almost, not quite a neutralyeast, but a yeast. I use a B
Mori yeast, which is the yeastthat 65% all single malt was
getting the world is made from.I import my malted barley. And
that's a whole other discussion.Import my single malt, sorry, my

(13:15):
malted barley, whether it bepeated or unpeated, I use a
Scottish copper pot still. Buthere's the big difference, the
microclimate of Colorado givesit a distinct Colorado flavor,
because of the temperature, thedry swings in temperature, the
dryness that we have herebecause of the water, because of

(13:40):
the new oak barrels, which youknow, the rest of the world
uses, you know, second secondfill barrels that has got, you
know, bourbon in that woodbefore they put the new make
single malt whiskey into intoit. And but the micro climate of
Colorado and all those otherfactors makes it distinctly
American, because of the NewYork, distinctly Colorado

(14:02):
because of the climate, anddistinctly boulder because of
the water we use. So those, allthose factors. And if you made,
if I travel down to anothermicro climate, whether it be
Kentucky, Texas, PacificNorthwest, the exact same
process with the same still, Iwould get a different whiskey
because of that micro climatesimpact on on the aging whiskey.

And we should say Colorado is, I mean, obviously
you got different microclimatesthroughout the state, but where
you are in Boulder, it's prettymuch high desert, or certainly,
yeah, I mean, I think it's highdesert, your mile up, it's we
landed, and we're told drink alot of water, because you're

(14:47):
going to be dehydrated veryquickly, even with swings and
humidity and pressure from beingup higher and storms coming in
and all that, overall, we'retalking a drier climate. So you
know, you're i. Heard you'relosing, you know, anywhere
between eight to 15 liters ofliquid as soon as you enter the
barrel, plus an angel share ofyou know at least five, 6% a

(15:15):
year, if not more. So that'salready going to be higher than
than the average at Kentucky,let's say, or the average in a
more consistently humidenvironment.

Unknown (15:25):
Yeah. And those that breathing of the barrel because
the swings and temperatureswings and swings and pressure,
you know, we just emptied abarrel. There a 17 year old
Kentucky barrel for a privatebottler, and it had been in
Kentucky 17 years. Had gone upfrom 120 to 131 in proof, and

(15:47):
they had lost 60% over 17 years,which averages about once you
put the maturation into thewood, probably around about the
3% mark in Colorado, we justemptied a bottle, sorry, empty
barrels at eight years old, andwe've lost 50% of our wine
gallons. Sorry, I apologize. 60%you've lost. In Kentucky in the

(16:10):
17 years, we've lost 40% just ineight years. So that that
average is round about the 3%mark, whereas in Scotland,
sorry, 4% mark, which inScotland, you'll be losing less
than two then the second thingthat happens is our proof starts
rising. So again, we might go inat 120 and come out over 150

(16:32):
after eight years, because thedryness sucks those water
particles out at a little bit ofa disproportionate rate of the
to the ethanol. Therefore, youknow, we are, we are
skyrocketing and rocketing inour proof. So the micro climate
does have such a significanteffect on our whiskey as does

(16:53):
the micro climates,

for sure. And I should say, the first exposure
that I had to Boulder spirits,the first time I got to try it
was through great podcastfriends and frequent guests.
Lost lantern, yeah, and it was,I had two of their bottle eggs
from you. Both of them, I think,were hazmat, and one was, I
mean, one was like, just over,and one was like, 147 148

(17:19):
something like that. It wasreally high. And I mean, I love
a hot bourbon or hot whiskey, Ishould say not a hot whiskey.
But I was thinking to myself,exactly what you just said,
like, what had to happen to getup to that proof when I know,
like, you guys haven't beenaround for 20, 3040, years for

(17:40):
the stuff to age like that. Andone of the more fascinating
comparisons was going back toone of those bottlings. It was
the peated one, yeah? So notthe, not the second one that was
finished in army I cast, I thinkjust a straight peated one, and
comparing it to your bottled andbond single malt, yeah, as well

(18:03):
as as the bourbon as well,because we'll get into this in a
bit, but the bourbon has asignificant malt component to
it, so it's not, I didn't findit as kind of off the page as I
would have normally comparing asingle malt to a bourbon, But
we'll get to all that in asecond. I second. But one thing

(18:25):
I wanted to just pick up onbefore I forget, is you said you
import the barley, whether it'speated or unpeated. Now you have
the Colorado microclimate thatis dictating your really your
entire maturation schedule isgonna be dictated by the
microclimate. You have said theI mean, aside from just

(18:46):
importing that, you don't reallyfocus on local barley, like the
the local terroir, if you will,is not your focus. And from what
you said, it's, it's, most maltin the US is made for beer
production, you know, it's, it'sthe same multi style and
process, but more focused onbrewery needs as opposed to what
a distiller might need. So moreon on less yield, if more

(19:10):
flavor, but that that doesn'talways align with what you need,
was that kind of a really earlydecision you made that really,
we're, we're going to bring inthe barley, and I mainly ask
this. I know I'm I'm rambling. Imainly ask this also because
Colorado is such a big beerstate that if, if anywhere like

(19:30):
Colorado and Pacific Northwest,I would figure maybe there would
be good barley, but maybe itwasn't for your purposes.

Unknown (19:38):
You know, I think when I first started, I wanted to
basically stick to the basicsand allow all those other things
in New York, the water, theclimate, to take, to really take
control. So I did two things. Iwas the first to import a, b,
more yeast, which into the US,because that I didn't want any

(19:58):
wayward flavors in. I'm not abrewer, so I know brewery
brewers really use yeast toimpart flavors. I didn't. I
didn't want that. I wanted tostick to the basics on that and
allow other things to take over.The same with the mold. I wanted
the malt to play have the basisof that because it was going
into a new Charro Barrow. Sosince I've been here, you know,

(20:24):
there are malting houses thatare starting to grow and using
very specific, you know, Paleomalts and pale malts and
specialist malts. And, you know,I give a shout out to root shoot
malting house. Root shoot is 20miles north of here, and they
used to do a lot of the CoorsCoors malt. They now switched,

(20:47):
and they are really focusing ondistillers, mod, a great family
business, and their maltedbarley we use, actually for for
them under their brand calledRoot shoot single malt whiskey,
and they actually just won theworld's best whiskey to London
whiskey awards. Now they uselocal we use their local malt to

(21:10):
make their whiskey. Now what wehave found is there is such a
distinct flavor contrast. We doeverything the same, other than
the different malt. So what Ifind with hours and very
simplistic, simplistic terms.Yes, it's closer to scotch. It's
a little bit more a delicateit's a little bit more how can I

(21:33):
see it complex, whereas Americanmalt, what I find personally is
that it's more robust. There isa ever so slightly beer flavor
to it, because you'reassociating that maltiness for
beer. So there is a, there is aposition for both of them. So,

(21:54):
but what we found is we, in ourwe've no trace which is our, one
of our annual releases we we usedifferent finishing was that was
a pitted malt finished in apitted malt finished in a sherry
barrel. What we found is weblended 10% of root shoots in,

(22:14):
and we could go much furtherthan 10% otherwise it would have
overtaken our whiskey. So 10%was was good. So there's a place
for both of those. However, weare working with them to make
that more, that transition alittle bit more towards the
local grain. And that's taken awhile, but it's happening now.

That's a fascinating study. I saw that
there was some of that in the inany release, and I gotta try
that, because why not? I know afew people who have worked with
root shoot. I was not aware ofthe their past, working with
cores and switching over todistillers, curious to hear what

(22:58):
that story was, but focused onyou today. So we're gonna stick
with you guys first, you know,jumping into the product. First
off, we gotta say, you know,American single malt, as of a
couple months ago, is nowofficial. Finally, it took eight
years from from when Andrew wasin in that probably he was in

(23:21):
the background. You're in thatback room of Benny's, yeah,
where they started that out. So,you know, for the for all the
strides that American Singaporehas made in the last decade, put
aside the regulation, put asidethe formalizing it, it's still
something that requires a lot ofconsumer education in the US,

(23:42):
and you've spoken about havingto having to talk to consumers,
having to talk to on premiseretailers, about what is
American Singapore? Where doesit fit on their shelves? How do
they sell it to a customer? Forfor you as a as a brand owner as
someone who's kind of jumpedinto this head first, what do

(24:06):
you feel has been the mosteffective method of educating
consumers?

Unknown (24:10):
I think it's the the old, you know, spirit to lips,
whiskey to lips. I think that'sthe biggest part of what we're
doing, and we've got theAmerican single malt whiskey
Association. It's run by StephenHolly and Holly, Holly, that's
the that's how you pronouncehim, I believe. And he's great.

(24:34):
I mean, he is trying to sort ofcorral all the single malt
whiskey people together and tryto coordinate that education,
coordinate that that publicrelations, coordinate these
things so that we can get themessage out. But I find you know
liquor store Colorado Springsonly last week, and they never

(24:57):
had our single malt whiskey.They had our bourbons and. Uh,
they took on our single maltwhiskey. I did a hand sell, sold
pen bottles. So that's mestanding for three hours on a
Friday night, hand selling,tasting, sampling, hand selling.
So there's 10 people now who've,who've, who've tasted not

(25:17):
necessarily our whiskey, butAmerican single malt whiskey.
Listen to the stories, and we'vegot maybe 10 people in Colorado
making single whiskeys. If we dothat every weekend, there's
another 100 people. And it'sjust a slow, slow burn,
unfortunately, but it's a slowburn, and people are starting,
you know, I know single maltwhiskeys in Colorado, where, if

(25:38):
you ask them, you come in fortours and you ask them, do you
know it's a single malt whiskey?Because they've mentioned the
brand, do you know it's a singlemal whiskey? And they go, No, I
just like the the flavor andtaste of it. They're, you know,
focused on, that's the brand Ilike. I love that whiskey. And
they don't even know it's asingle mal whiskey. They just
know that. So that education,even with people who like our

(26:00):
brand, that education part isgoing to have to always be
there. And, you know, we sellour single malt in Scotland, and
I've been around a lot of thespecialist whiskey shops. And
what I love about that is that,you know, even Scotch whiskey
drinkers, people who really areinto whiskey, not necessarily
just scotch, want these newtastes and flavors, and know the

(26:21):
stories and the reasons why, andvice versa. You know, scotch
coming over to the US. It'sabout education.

And that leads perfectly into my next question,
which was, you know, to flip it,older spirits, American single
malt is is sold, as you said,internationally. It could be
found, I think, in eight or ninecountries at least. Now, we've
also got a good stronghold inAlberta over the border,
although there might be a pauseon that right now, but leave
that for a differentconversation. You said

(26:54):
international whiskey groups areexcited for American Singapore.
They want to see what producershere can create. So when you're
since there's education on theother side as well, to educate
the international groups, isthat a different kind of
education, because they'recoming from a background of
already, I already drink a lotof single malt. This is American

(27:17):
as opposed to going kind ofdifferent category from Bourbon
to single

Unknown (27:22):
malt. I in my experience, I think, you know,
growing up, other than JackDaniels, nobody drank bourbon
and they saw bourbon is quite acheap spirit. I think that's
since I moved over here, Irealized, you know, Europeans
can't be It can't be furtherfrom the truth. There are
phenomenal bourbons in the US.And I've only, I've only

(27:45):
scratched the surface as a nonbourbon European drinker. And so
I think there's an education onEuropean side as well on what
bourbons are and what they canbe, especially when you've got,
you know? You know differentmash bills, still bourbons, but
still different mash bills, highrye or high wheat or high malt.

(28:07):
It really is a fascinatingsubject. However, I think
there's definitely a betteredge, and I'm careful I say
about this better education onwhat single malt whiskey is
outside America, so Canada,South Africa and Europe are
people, when I talk about singlemalt whiskey, they understand

(28:29):
what it is, and they've got justwant to know what the nuances
are. Oh, it's new Charlottebarrels, yes. Oh, it's a
different climate than Scotch orGerman single malt whisk well,
Germany and the Ukrainian gotsimilar in the north of Germany,
so they want to know thenuances, but they've got that
base education of what singlemalt whiskey is or what Scotch

(28:51):
is. Americans don't have that.They have it on bourbon, and I'm
still learning about that.

And just to divert for a second, I don't want to
skip over your bourbon, because,again, this conversation is
mainly focused on single maltand that part of the business.
But the bourbon is a 51% corn,44% malt, 5% rye recipe, and it
is unequivocally one of myfavorite bourbons that I've had

(29:21):
this year. Thank you. FavoriteNew bourbons, and I think
between you and Chattanooga andTennessee, who's also doing a
high malt bourbon, not as highas you are, but a high malt
bourbon. And there's a 25% asopposed to 44 there's something
about a malted bourbon that I'mjust loving. And I think it

(29:45):
comes down to the mouth feelmore than anything. You get the
great flavor from the malt, sureand all that. But it's just it's
heavier because your yourbourbon, the one that I have is
a 42% 8484 Proof most bourbonsfor me at that proof, I barely
taste it. It's like maybe alittle strong iced tea kind of

(30:08):
thing. But this lingers on thepalate. It has flavor on it.
It's not just passing through aneffervescent and I love that
fact, and I love the fact thisis calling back to earlier, you
said you wanted to really onlymake single malt, but Ted
convinced you that you had tomake bourbon, and the
compromise, seemingly, was thatit had to be a different kind of

(30:30):
bourbon using the malt. So whatwas that conversation like? I

Unknown (30:34):
think the conversation we've got, we've got other
bourbon, Manu, Bourbondistilleries here in Colorado,
who have got some interestingmash bills, whether they be, you
know, 56 corn and 34 rye, andtraditionally, rye and wheat has
been used as the flavoring. Whenyou ask a lot of large

(30:56):
distilleries, why don't you usemalt as a flavoring, you get the
same answer as all the Scottishwhiskey distilleries, and
there's no there's no harm inthis, because they've hit a rich
vein of success with this. Isthat's not how we do it. And
what's great about craft craftspirits is we can chop and
change and try things out. So itdoes help our production,

(31:22):
because malted barley reallyhelps break down those enzymes.
It's very enzymatic. It ithelps. It's husky, and so it
helps our process. But I wantedto bring in malt as a flavoring.
So going very high seemedlogical to me, 5% right? That

(31:45):
was really a thumb in the airfor the right, 51 corn. But for
me, what I wanted to achieve isI wanted for a non bourbon
drinker, until I moved to theUS, other than Jack Daniels, and
there's a lot of heat and sweetto most bourbons, and that heat
and sweet is pretty off puttingto most European single malt

(32:09):
whiskey drinkers, becausethere's very limited supply of
brands in Europe. So I wanted tocalm that heat and sweet down
and add another flavoring. And Ithink for me, it's worked as the
consumer, it's absolutelyworked. What a side issue, I
think, has come out of this thatI find fascinating is that a lot

(32:32):
of bourbon drinkers will willdrink this and go, yeah, yeah,
yeah. I can taste them all. Ican taste the sweetness and the
heat of the corn. But there'sanother sweetness. And I think
that sweetness is it's essentialeating the barrel sugars from
that new oak. Because if you'vegot 8090, 80% corn, it's all
corn sweetness that's reallycovers everything up. And we're

(32:54):
pulling more barrel sweetnessout of it. And I have seen, and
I tell you one old elk. I'vejust seen they're doing a 34%
and they're up the road. So I'msaying they're copying me. But
there is a movement towards thathigh, higher malt content. Bring
malt is a flavoring, lower thesweet, the heat and sweet, and

(33:18):
get different sugar profiles outof the barrel itself. That's my
take on it.

I love it. I can't argue with it. And we'll just
say we will pour one out for oldelk in Colorado, as they're
they're no longer going to bedoing anything Colorado Now,
sure. Yeah, I was a coupleepisodes ago. I got to interview
Mel right before the news broke.Fantastic interview still, but I

(33:47):
hope they continue to do some ofthose higher malt experiments,
because they were delicious, butI got to try so coming back to
to you, so as you said, You cameover with a foresight pot still,
number one, is it still thebiggest pot still in the state,

Unknown (34:10):
1000 gallons. I think it is. I mean, probably the
biggest distillery to us, thebiggest distilling hard, I would
suggest that that make their ownproduct is strans, and I believe
they've got like two 600 gallonstills or 700 gallons. But they
got two of them. I've got one socombined. So they've got bigger

(34:34):
one as far as volume so but as asingle still, I think it is a
funny story about that is when Iapproached Richard Forsyth.
Because really Forsyth ofrothers are the only ones that
were they were making McAllen,or they make everybody's other
diageos, which I believe they'vegot more. They've got their own

(34:56):
still makers. And there's a newone, I think Macmillan says.
Appeared in the last few years,but the oldest and the most
famous is Forsyth. And whenRichard versyth, I read in the
paper that McAllen had ordered aridiculous number, like 26
stills, and it was a three yearwaiting list, and I phoned up
Richard, and I say, hey,Richard, are you going to bump

(35:18):
me now you've got this massiveorder from McAllen. And he said,
Alistair, your still is so smallthat I can make it in between
times, so don't worry about it.You'll get it in time. So they
were making these huge stillsfrom a Callan, but still were
able to do my still for 1000gallons,

just to confirm one of the pieces of things I
found in the research was so yougot the, you know, it's classic
pot still from Forsyth, but yousaid at one point it was one
designed for the Americanclimate. Was there something
different about this particularstill?

Unknown (35:54):
Yeah, so, I mean, precise, have got a massive
track record. And actually,Richard Forsyth was a big fan,
although there wasn't manypeople doing it, but a big fan
of balconies down in Texas, andhe really understood what the
climate is going to do to singlemolds. So he designed the the

(36:17):
still to give less reflux. Lessreflux gives a heavier whiskey.
So you know, the taller is,sorry, the short, the shorter it
is. The linear arm pointing downrather than up. All these things
are going to give less reflux.Because with a with a precise

(36:41):
still. Every still will give acompletely unique, different
whiskey that's taken as a redbut one of the things that can
manipulate a little bit is thereflux. And the reflux, because
the new make is going into a newcharred oak barrel, there was a
concern that that oak could all,as it does with some whiskies.

(37:02):
You know, 12, 1314, I'm not thebourbon expert, but can
overtake. The bottle willovertake. So I had a 17 year old
Kentucky whiskey not so ago thatwe borrowed for private bottle,
and it was just oak, which isthe American palate, because you
Americans are used to thatoakiness and sweetness in a lot

(37:22):
of their whiskies, single maltwhiskey drinkers are so the real
issue was, will the barrelovertake the single malt, which
is a bit more delicate, bit morenuance, quick? So let's get a
still that matches the climateand what barrel it's going into.

(37:42):
So I always given the lightness,you know, if you get, if you use
a an Irish whiskey and put itinto a new Charro barrel, Irish
whiskey is three timesdistilled. I won't be rude about
the Irish. I'm as Irish as theycome four generations ago. But
you know, if you put a lightwhiskey into a New York barrel,
you'll get very sort of tan, anyweather, a flavor quicker. So,

(38:04):
you know, I've tasted 10 yearold. There's one distillery,
single malt. It's got a 12 yearold and, you know, it's pushing
those limits, I think, to mypalate, but my palate is not, is
not accustomed to an Americanpalate. So when we're doing
we're doing we're bringing out a10 year old single malt whiskey
in about eight months time,because we've hit that age. But

(38:26):
I will get a lot of friends andconfidantes who I trust to taste
it to tell me if it's too okayor not, because I'm not a good
one to tell that I'll alwaysthink it's too okay. I

tend to be the same way. Honestly, it's the
Aside from math field being toook, is the number one
determinant of whether I'm goingto like something or not, and I
tend not to like those olderAmerican whiskeys for that exact
reason. So. But that makessense, having the, you know, a
heavier distillate, ultimately,that's going to hold up to you.

(39:01):
Using new to chart, Americanoak, using a number three char.
So it's not a it's not a heavychar, but it's not like a char
one either. There's going to bechar influence in this, and you
can see it in the color. It'snot a single malt. That's what
put it to use cast where thecolor, the tannins, have already

(39:21):
been leached out for the mostpart. Most part. So personally,
I was really happy to hear thatthat thought process had been
put into it, because we bothknow that there are plenty of
distilleries. Who would theyjust buy a still and kind of see
if it works or not. So with,with the still, and what's

(39:46):
happening in still and also inyour maturation, you know, we
talked about earlier, it'sdrier, the humidity is all over
the place, the temperature, thepressure swings, and thus faster
aging. You said on on whiskey,wanderlust, maybe half a year
ago. Things last November thatyou were getting some different
chemical reactions in Coloradothan you would in Scotland or

(40:07):
Texas. You alluded to thisearlier, I think, when you were
just talking about how you couldget corn sweetness versus barrel
sweetness in a whiskey. But Ilove to just let you talk a
little bit more about whatyou're seeing in the different
reactions.

Unknown (40:26):
Um, I think there is a level. There is no substitute
for time, but there's and I, asI tell you know, people like to
say, you know, if you put it ina smaller barrel, it's going to,
it's going to be, you know, withdouble the wood surfacing, which
contact you're going to maturetwice as fast. And I said, Well,

(40:49):
it's not quite as easy as that.I think because we used 2515
gallon drum, 15 gallon barrelson our first year, and there was
a significant difference betweenbringing out a 15 gallon at one
year versus a 53 at two years.Or half the time there were

(41:10):
different whiskeys. There's anoxidization process that has to
an oxidization is just one ofthe many processes that only
time will will give it and sogoing small bars and bringing
them out of a year, I don'tthink it's enough time we keep
our even with the The climatehere, we will not even taste our

(41:32):
bourbons until they're threeyears. So straight bourbon two
years, but we won't even tasteit till three years, because
there's a massive differencebetween that two year and three
year. What it gives us? Well, Ithink for us, it gives it a
unique Colorado flavor. So whenyou compare it to other micro

(41:53):
climates, and I don't want to, Ibelieve that there's positives
in every micro climate. So Idon't really want to go too much
into what I find in each majorclimate, but you're getting
spicier notes from, I think,more humid locations. I think
you're getting, for us, you'regetting more more balanced, but

(42:14):
also more of we're getting greatfruit flavors from ours. Is that
the yeast, or is it going to bethat maturation as where we can
really, really determine,because our yeast is fairly
neutral, I would love to do anexperiment where we get five,

(42:34):
you know, pick five microclimates, swap barrels for
three, four years, and come outwith a academic paper, not a
brand paper, an academic papersaying, This is what Texas gives
you, this is what Colorado givesyou, this is Pacific Northwest
gives you. We tried to bringsome distilleries together to do
this, but people were gettinginvestments from Diageo, and

(42:56):
then turned her the backs on us,and various things were
happening. But I would love toget that academic paper to
really demonstrate whatdifferent regions will give you
on the positive, nothingnegative. So we can turn around
and say Colorado gives you amore balanced whiskey with, oh,
sorry, a balanced whiskey withmore of the lighter fruit apple

(43:19):
flavors and whatever it is,compared to others. And I think
lost lantern. Lost lantern tookthe barrel, one of our barrels,
up, and sat it for a year and ahalf up in the north east. And
when I tasted Well, me andothers tasted the whiskey, there
was subtle differences there. Wecould put our finger on it, but
it wasn't our whiskey anymore,because they'd kept up there for

(43:41):
a year and a half. So there waschanges.

Having visited where they're keeping the
barrels it? Yeah, I visited inFebruary of last year, and it
was cold. So, you know, it'snot, it's like, it's, it's not
wholly temperature controlled.It's, it's basically just
temperature controlled enough sothat they can still work in
there. But, you know, it's anold building and and there the

(44:09):
barrels are in the cellar, so Ican see there being kind of more
oxidization reaction, as opposedto barrel interaction, and
which, which would be a massivedifference from from what you're
experiencing in Colorado. Yeah.And I, you know, I'd heard about
the that study of a coupletrying to do the study of a

(44:30):
couple of differentdistilleries, you know, same
distillate, but put in otherplaces, I'll have to look back
and see who I spoke to that alsomentioned that, because I'd also
love to see that yeah and yeah,so Oh, the last thing I want to
ask about, those about the itwas with the reactions, but also

(44:52):
just with your maturation ingeneral. Do you find that those
maturation quirks and themicroclimate affect both your
single mole? Oil and bourbon,the same

Unknown (45:03):
great question. This is just sort of, you know,
subjective experiments thatwe've done in tasting over the
years. I think I find there is awith the bourbon, there's a
bigger change between, let'ssay, three years and six years

(45:27):
in the bourbon than there is inthe single malt and, hell, I
know why, but just when you'recomparing them both, you just
find that the single maltwhiskey is just taking so we've
got seven year. We've got 6789,and almost 10 years. And it's
definitely a slower process ingetting the change after. So we

(45:51):
bring our single mo whiskey, ouraverage is probably five years.
But you know, when we are 40, wewe really wouldn't bring it out
till four, and before to sayeight or nine, there's a swore
graduation in the change than afour to nine on the bourbon.
Absolutely, we are finding theBourbons are maturing a lot

(46:15):
faster. So when we first broughtour cash strength, that that
ultimately, the eight year oldwon the world's best small batch
to the world whiskeys. We werebringing that out at five and a
half years. And it was that'swhere, you know, Fred minute put
us in his top 10 only at fiveand a half years. So it was

(46:36):
great at that that age, at thatage, eight years is even better.
And I just think it justaccelerates, accelerates quicker
than the single mode.

I can't explain. No, it's fine. It's something I
hadn't I don't think I've askedanyone before about how a
microclimate would affectdifferent mash bills, but it
came up because you had, I hadheard you say that everything is
the same. And you said this inearlier, that between the single
malt and the bourbon, theproduction wise, everything is

(47:11):
the same, same, yeast, same, youknow, process, the going into
the same new charter barrel. Soall of that is the same. So the
last variable, then, is, youknow, is that microclimate
affecting it? So I thought itwas, it was worth it was worth
asking.

Unknown (47:27):
No, I think, I think I'd love to know the actual
chemistry of that, because Ijust think the Bourbons seem to
accelerate more than the singlemost. I don't know how long
we're going to get out thesingle most, as I said before
that over. You know the the realchar overtakes. I know one
distillery that wants to get toabout they've had an experience

(47:48):
of tenure, and it just is alittle okay. So what now they do
is they put aside in climatecontrol, just to slow the
process down so they can forceout a little older whiskey. We
don't have enough to do that.When our 10 year old comes out,
I might keep a few barrels, butnot much to 12, but I don't
think we're going to get beyond12

exactly. I mean, at that point you're making a I
know you want to say it's apassion decision, but it's also
it's a financial decision,because you can have a whiskey
that goes too long and you, somepeople have been successful in
in removing tannins and kind ofsoftening those, those sharp

(48:30):
edges that can happen with andwoodiness, but you need a lot of
money to do it. And, I mean, youdon't want to lose a cask. It's
worth

Unknown (48:38):
it. Yeah, I don't want to do that. I want it to be all
natural, you know, no climatecontrol, no no additive or
anything. I don't want to do anyof that. But also, we're not a
big enough brand to go, Hey,we've got a 10 year old so wall
upon an extra 30% we're notthat, that that business. We

(49:00):
can't. We don't have that brandawareness at the

moment. As you mentioned, you did. You know the
15 gallon barrels at thebeginning didn't really work. It
was just it didn't work for thefor the microclimate that you're
in as of last April. This iswhen, when former full spirits
employee, Ryan was on, he was ona different podcast, said that

(49:27):
everything on the market as ofthen was at least from 53 gallon
barrels, and that's counting,you know, barrels that are a
larger format, because they'reeither ex wine, ex fortified
wine, but 53 gallon Americanstandard barrel was the baseline
for everything you've done. Healso mentioned you had played

(49:50):
with some used oak casks as asfirst entry is that something
that's just for pureexperimentation, or we see
something down the market ordown the line. In the market, I
think

Unknown (50:02):
down the line. So we've got, I think it was 12 barrels,
about 12 barrel, only 12 barrelsof two years, and we're going to
be putting more of our singlemalt in ex bourbon. I also want
to put root shoots into exbourbon at the same time,
because I think that's going tobe a fantastic comparison to see

(50:23):
how that impacts. You know thatrobust root shoot American grain
versus ours. I did samplebecause I believe and I could be
wrong here, balconies are movingaway and into ex bourbon, or a
lot of the, some of the releaseare going to be ex bourbon
single malts. And few years agoin Tennessee, I tasted some, and

(50:48):
it's so close to scotch. And Idon't know whether I want to do
that. I want to be, I want to bein an American single malt
whiskey, and the American palateis more that okiness. I don't
want to try and compete againstscotch. And I think most of us
in the association the singlemoist Association. And again, I

(51:10):
could be wrong, but from what Ihear, most people are sticking
to that new oak because it givesus a distinctive flavor and a
distinctive American palateflavor as well. So, but we are
doing that absolutely, David,we're we're playing around. And,
you know, we could blend some ofour ex bourbon into into into

(51:33):
the new or whatever. So we willbe laying down some, yes,

and since the regulations are set, be able to
blend new and ex bourbontogether still be single malt.
You don't have to worry about itbeing a DSS or anything else.
It'll still be American singlemalt.

Unknown (51:51):
Yeah, I think only, I don't want America to get into
this whole age statement battle.So it's got to be the youngest
bottle. So, yeah, if you'rebinding second, sorry, second
fill with new oak, the new oakis going to be younger. New York
is going to be younger.Therefore you'll have to put the
age statement of the youngestbarrel. So you know, where is

(52:15):
that American single malware,age statement? Whole thing going
to go, I don't know. I don'tknow. I put an age statement on
one of my whiskeys seven years,because I was just at the front
of the label, because I was sobloody happy that I got to seven
years, I put it on, and I willdo it for the 10 year. But I
don't want to be, I don't wantAmerican whiskey to go down the
age statement way that the Scotsdid.

And you do have the bottleneck bond as well, but
that's, I mean, that's minimumfour years it's coming out.
Sounds like, you know, close tofive and a half, six years old
on a regular basis. Yes, forthose, you know, I have to say
too, I was gonna, I'm gonna askyou about the kind of capacity
you have and all that. But thisa seven year old American single

(53:01):
malt at bottled at 50% 100proof, and at 6999 MSRP feels
like a bargain to me. You know,because I think about just the
just knowing the back end ofthis, which, like most
consumers, probably won't, butknowing the back end is using

(53:21):
new barrels, which cost morethan used barrels. You're using
imported malt, which probablycosts more than local. You know,
there's a lot of otheradditional costs there, but
again, just under 70 bucks 1010,bucks a year is kind of the
standard that we think about inScotch in a lot of ways, how

(53:47):
that really trade secrets, like,how are you controlling those
costs enough that you can putout this great product at an
approachable price?

Unknown (53:57):
I think where we land is probably on the lower side of
our peers, when it comes tobottom bond, when it comes into
our base spirit, there's thatlevel where I produced, I
produced a lot of whiskey. Iknow some of the guys here are

(54:18):
literally, it's very fewbarrels, so they've got to put
that price up to almost damperdemand. I've got enough whiskey,
especially in a single malt, notto have to do that. And I'm
lucky, because I probably haveout with, you know, the heavily
VC sponsored whiskey companieshere in Colorado, I probably

(54:42):
have more barrels laid down thanmost, so I'm able to do that at
this moment. But if demandoutstrips supply, then maybe,
then I've got to reallyreconsider. But as again, I
don't have the brand awarenessto I don't have the brand
awareness to to get and if youdo the math on. On it. When you
take the 4% per annum storagecost, blah, blah, blah, you

(55:05):
know, all my bourbons are inline with what it's costing from
the base. All my single maltsfrom the $55 retail is in line.
So I'm not gouging that extramargin for Rarity or or
significant brand awareness. SoI will probably carry on with
that until I'm startingapproaching those sales where

(55:29):
the demand starts out strippingmy supply. That's my logic. No

look. As a consumer, I appreciate that, and
as a you know, content person,interviewer. I I note it because
it's because it's affordable,you know. And I'm sorry to I'm
sure there are some people whoare going to hear this and say,
you know, 70 bucks for bottlewhiskey. It's not affordable.
But for the stats, I think it's,it's definitely like, as you

(56:00):
said, it's on the lower end ofwhat we would probably be
charged for kind of craft,single malt at seven years. I
mean, there's, there's onenearby me, which I won't name,
that put out three years in aday, and it was over 150 bucks.

(56:20):
Yeah. And besides the fact thatI did not enjoy that particular
whiskey, I was like, how, howare you going to get for your
first product? How are you goingto get consumers to interact
with your brand? You know, asyou said, if you have a limited
release, if you've got somethingspecial where you want to charge
that much, all right, fine, Iget that. But for a introductory

(56:43):
release to be that expensive,you're automatically going to
price out a lot of consumers,

Unknown (56:48):
absolutely, and there is, unfortunately, within a wall
of Whiskey. Whiskey enthusiasts,when they see a high price, they
associate with high quality, thelike ladies handbags, high
price. Associate you, highquality. So you know, there's a
couple like that in Colorado aswell, who won one in particular,

(57:12):
who extremely high pricing,extremely high pricing. But they
sell to a certain audience. Butin comparison to the age, the
quality, it should be a littlebit down there. Everybody's got
different business models. Youknow, it's, I'm hitting a
certain a certain whiskeyenthusiast. And I've had many,

(57:34):
many conversations about this.But also, you know, I've got,
I've got quantity, and when thatdwindles, then maybe I have to
look at the pricing a little bit

so that goes into your capacity. So you've got
this, let's say it's the largestpot, single pot still in the in
the state. You have, you know,somewhere between 800 and 1000
barrels in in storage. And youknow you're not running at full

(58:08):
capacity. So because, as I mean,if it wasn't evident already,
the fact that you're able tohave root shoot malting come in
and use your stills, means thatyou're not running at full
capacity. That's just how it is.So, because this is such a long
term outlook for when you haveto backfill those stocks, I

(58:34):
think in one of the more recentinterviews, the stat was about
60% capacity was available forfor contracting, for others to
use the equipment, meaning about40% was used just for your
purposes. Does that feel likesomething that's going to
rephrase that is, does it feelslike that's a kind of stable

(58:57):
point for you right now? Youseeking growth? Or Is that
comfortable?

Unknown (59:01):
I think, you know, with craft distilling, the vast
majority of craft distilling inColorado, and I would suggest,
in maybe other Kentucky, it'smore about, you know, setting
up, producing, selling once youcould then get enough money to
buy the raw materials, you startproducing more. That's not how a

(59:23):
Scottish distillery sets up.They set up at maximum
production. You know, seven daysa week, 24 hours a day, because
they've got the confidence, orthey did have the confidence,
they could sell almosteverything to make, either in
the home market or in theChinese market, under different
different brands or differentlabels or different whatever. So

(59:44):
the business model isn't ideal.Where you are, you've got
capacity of 1000 hours a year,but you don't have you've got to
build the sales to get to thatpoint. So you substitute the the
production by producing for.Other people. So what's been
interesting in the last year,even although laws have changed

(01:00:06):
in Colorado, distributors arechanging, consumers are changing
their habits and their spend isthat more and more I'm being
approached by more and morepeople to lay down single malt
whiskey for them and a recentinquiry was, I want single malt
whiskey. And I don't know whothis person is, because it's

(01:00:28):
through a third party. I wantto, you know, I want to lay down
a few 100 barrels a year, but ithas to be matured in Colorado,
and I don't know whether theyare an in state or out of state
company. So we are laying downin single malts for other people
at the moment, in a small scale,but we're open to doing that,

(01:00:51):
storing the barrels and thenultimately bottling, about
bottling it for them, as we dofor root shoot. But root shoot,
I must say they've got more of apark because they're literally
20 minutes up the road from us.They've got more of a part to
play in selection of thebarrels, a big part in it, the
grains that they're using,etcetera,

David Levine (01:01:10):
right? They're, they're, they sound like they're
going to be much more activepartners than someone
potentially out of state who'sgoing through a third party,
absolutely for sure. So just inthe last couple minutes, I got
you for so, oh, this is aquestion I had to ask too. So as

(01:01:30):
the first interaction I had withboulder spirits was that lost
lantern single cask, and it waspeated to me, I would consider
it was more heavily peated. Butthat could have just been the
night, you know, that I tried atfirst, yeah. And it kind of
embedded in my brain, becauseyou're not using super heavily

(01:01:53):
peated. You're you've said youwant it to be more and more
approachable peat level. That'skind of treading that line
between, you know there's Petethere, but it's not going to
turn off someone who isabsolutely opposed to Pete.

Unknown (01:02:08):
I love our Pete whiskey for the simple fact that we
taste so many people who willtell you they don't like Pete,
or they tell you they love Pete.And what I find with I'm not a
big peat head. But we we broughtthat in at 32 females per
million, and we blended it down.We do our cuts a little bit

(01:02:30):
differently than then. The Scotstend to run their cuts a little
lower because they're trying toextract like all Scots. There's
a famous saying in Scotland,every penny is a prisoner, so
the Scots like to get as PT asmuch Pete out of it as they can.
We do our cuts a little earlier.Most of our peated mall is seven

(01:02:51):
or eight years old, and itreally therefore gives it gets
less peaty and a little bit moreapproachable peat after seven or
eight years, I think, you know,it's a little bit harsher in
year 345, but then when you geta little older, it sort of
mellows. It's still there. But Iwanted to it to be more of a

(01:03:14):
expression of Pete than a peatbomb. And the best guess I can
make, and I don't know, 20females per million, it's low.
It's still there. But I lovetasting people oil on it,
because those people who lovePete are not necessarily. I want
as much Pete as possible. I justlike the peat at every level.

(01:03:34):
And then people who don't likePete, I taste them, they go, Oh,
because the first test was maybea la Freud, 10 years old, that
is, and that's was the numberone seller in the US. So that's
like a peak bomb. And I can seewhy a lot of people will never,
ever like Pete again aftertasting that. And not because

(01:03:54):
it's bad, it's just not anintroduction to Pete. So having,
having that has been really,really good. And we actually, we
did a pitted malt finish in asherry. We're doing a pitted
malt finished in muscatelle. Sowe're using Pete and bringing

(01:04:17):
out a single malt, but with apeat element to and just from
the distillery, and it's provingonce we taste them, because
we've got a secondary tastingroom on Pearl Street in Boulder,
and it's great to be able totaste people. It's a tasting
room. We don't do cocktails, butwe do tastings and bottle sales,

(01:04:38):
and it's great tasting peopleout on that. So I want to do do
a peep, but it's more people wholike Pete will sample it.

I mean, I hope to get my hands on one or both of
those, because that's, that'sthe way that I like Pete the
most. Is I don't mind a Pete onits own, but with a with a
sherry, with a. I don't know ifI've had them with a muscatel,
but, you know, with a sweetercomponent to it to round it out.

(01:05:08):
I just, I love that pairing. Andit's also worth noting your Pete
in profile is more Highlandstyle Pete. We're talking, you
know, grassy or Earth year, asopposed to either the Heathers
of up in Orkney or the moremaritime or medicinal down in
Isla, and we're painted with avery broad brush there, but

(01:05:31):
just, you know, profiles more

Unknown (01:05:33):
approachable you're spawn, so it's more southwest
Aberdeen kind of so it's not theheavy it's easier to explain to
people. You know, your eyelid issea salt. Sea salt, heavy,
heavy, heavy, whereas inlandtends to be either that more
heathery or more very a lot ofHeather, or not so much Heather,

(01:05:58):
more, you know, grasses and alittle bit Heather. So I didn't
want that medicinal,overpowering, highly peat. So we
source it through mountains,more towards, I can't remember
the exact area, southwest ofAberdeen. I

with the with the peat. Have you? This could be
another hypothetical here. Buthow do you feel the peat
interacts with new American oak,as opposed to refill?

Unknown (01:06:39):
Sure, I think for me, for us, people will taste their
single malt, and it might not befor them, they're they're single
mal whiskey drinkers, but itmight not be for them, because
there's that a little bit moresweetness, there could be a
little bit more oakiness, butalso positive or negative. It

(01:07:00):
depends where you do it. There'sa there's a slight heat, and I
would say nippiness on oursingle malt, with our peated it
covers those things up. Itcovers up the new Oak Hill, a
little bit extent, covers upthat little heat, a bit
nippiness on our single mold. Sosuddenly they go, Oh, this is

(01:07:22):
I'm more familiar as a singlemalt whiskey drinker with this
than I am with unused oakbarrel. Sorry, a single malt in
a new barrel, the peatinessdisguises a few things that
maybe they don't like in a newAmerican oak barrel. So I get a
lot of people who that enjoy thePEEP for that reason, and it's

(01:07:47):
more a couple of distilleries.So I take my my bottles over to
Scotland a lot, and I lovetasting my stuff in to people
distillers for just to see whattheir reactions are. And I get a
lot of this is on the PT side.This is significant, definitely

(01:08:09):
a single an American single malwhiskey, but it airs towards a
lot of the flavors of Talisker.On that side with our single
malt, more towards the Jura towith our Port Cask finish, more
towards Gwen farklis, which Itotally disagree with, but as
another story. So there'selements within our whiskies

(01:08:32):
that are familiar to Scottishwhiskey drinkers, not just the
mold.

It's funny. I'm I'm picturing Talisker and
Jordan, both of those, I Iassociate with a a little bit of
maritime character in there, notnearly as much as Isla, but
some, I mean, they're, they'reislands, I agree, yeah, but
didn't get any any salinity inin your PE there maybe more on

(01:08:59):
the kind of perceived PPM level.I can see that because
definitely it perceives lower.It doesn't perceive as as a
super PD, you know, 32 down to20 ish, I think it comes across
lower than that, which, again,goes to the approachability. So

(01:09:20):
in just to start closing outtowards the future of what
you're doing back in, you know,late 2021, your sales were
about, you know, 6040 bourbon tosingle Mall. So in some ways
it's vindicating Ted like, youknow, Bourbon is still going to
sell. You know, four yearslater. Now is that still about

(01:09:44):
the ratio you're at or singlemalt gaining.

Unknown (01:09:48):
Single malt is growing, but it's still about 5050, so if
you take our range of bourbonversus a range of single malt,
both of them are growing and.Took a bit of a step back two
years ago, just everything thatwas going on, and then started
growing. But they're they'regrowing in unison, although I

(01:10:10):
think we're just finished,almost finished, out of our cash
strength bourbon, which welaunched for 2025 or 24 into 25
and I think then that willbottle bottle numbers, the same
value, a little higher in thebourbon. And this year,
unfortunately, we're going tohave less bourbon cash strength.

(01:10:34):
We're going to about halfbecause of just what we set
aside for that. So we're goingto probably be 5050 again into
this year.

Honestly. I mean, it's anecdotal from my end, but
5050 I feel like it's still apretty good ratio when, when
bourbon usually rules the show.Even if single malt is the
focus,

Unknown (01:10:58):
our focus is single ball. We talk about our single
malt all the time. And whateversales and marketing we do, we
present the single malt, but wealso present the bourbon number
two. And then, you know, westill do some phenomenal gyms.
We present those number three,because, you know, there's this.

(01:11:18):
And when I arrived in the US andsaw the distilling community,
there is a percept, myperception is, and wrongly, you
know, jack of all trades, masterof none. And the people who have
been the most successful havebeen the ones that have focused
on either, you know, whiskeys orgins or the liqueur side of it,

(01:11:39):
although I disagree with that,because I think they're a
distiller, if he makes singlemalt whiskey, he probably can
make a fantastic gin or afantastic liqueur as well. But
we try and focus on the singlemalt whiskey. We give that all
our efforts and resources, butbourbons are still going to

(01:12:01):
sell.

So I mean that they and if it keeps, if it
keeps the doors open, it keepslights on for that single mall
to keep coming

Unknown (01:12:10):
out. Oh, I think, I don't think I'd be sitting here
talking to you if we just didsingle mode, it would have been,
it would have been toodifficult. And I'm so glad I
very quickly was talked intodoing, hey, you're in America
now. You got to do a bourbon.Well, if I'm doing a bourbon,
you're going to make it verydifferent. Oh, that might not
work. Well, I'm not going tojust go along the same road as
everybody else. I'm going totake that as most, as a lot of

(01:12:33):
craft distillers, do that littlebit of a risk, for sure.

So Alistair, thank you so much for taking the time
tonight to talk us throughboulder spirits, favorite
distillery, the bourbon you'remaking, the American single malt
that is coming out of there. Ireally can't recommend people
enough to try it. It isavailable through your website.
It's available through a coupleof different online stores as
well. Check out for keeping aneye out for lost lantern too,

(01:13:02):
because they, I think they stillhave a cask or two from you
hidden around in the basement.

Unknown (01:13:08):
They do. And we've been speaking recently, so they're,
they're up stocking some oftheir their future. Yeah,
everybody sees at the moment.But no, this has been an
absolute pleasure, David, as youprobably know, from a lot of the
distilleries We love talkingabout our whiskey. We love
talking about what we do. Andyou know, it's, you know, like
there's a whiskey for everyone.You know, most distilleries are

(01:13:30):
so passionate about what they'redoing and how they're doing it.
And I love being able to tellus. Love being able to tell our
story. And you know, ifanybody's in Colorado, look us
up. We're 25 minutes north ofDenver. Look us up. Book a tour
or just come in for a tasting.There was always somebody around
to pour you a whiskey in talkshop.

Yes, don't make the mistake that I did, and
forget until the day they wereclosed. So don't do that.
Fantastic. So there will belinks in the show notes, as
always, for where you can followby and my notes for the two,
well more than two whiskies thatI got to try Alistair. Hang on
with me for just a moment afterwe finish recording, sure
there's been another episode ofThe whiskering podcast. Thank

(01:14:14):
you everyone. Like rate andsubscribe wherever you can. It
really helps to show out, and Iwill see you all next week. You.

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Ep. 192: Boulder Spirits with Founder Alastair Brogan

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