Ep. 215: Green River Distillery with Caryn Wells

Episode Transcript
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David Levine (00:00):
Hey

(00:02):
folks, welcome to a new episodeof The Whiskey Ring Podcast.
Today. I'm thrilled to bereturning to Kentucky with with
you know, it feels like it'sbeen a while since we've been
down in Kentucky for an episode.So to return to Kentucky, we're
going to the west of Kentucky,the Central Time Zone, the only
major heritage distillery in thetime Central Time Zone to talk

(00:22):
about Green River distillery inOwensboro, and to talk about
Green River we've got on Karenwells, she's the national brand
ambassador, one of the majorfaces, if not the face, of Green
River, to larger community andsomeone I had the pleasure of

(00:43):
meeting at the Kentucky bourbonfestival a couple years ago. So
it's been a long time coming,but Karen, welcome on. Well,
thank you. Thanks for having me.It has been a minute. We need,
we need to do this in personthing again here, sometime soon,
I'm hoping to be there nextyear, for sure. I know it's a
busy time, but probably get downto Owensboro just to focus on
Green River. I know, as you'vesaid, in different industries,
you know, it's a trek to getover there for some people, but
people, but you guys make itworth it. So we, we try, we try.

(01:07):
Yeah, I mean, you've been,you've been voted the, you know,
I think was the number four,like, top four experiences of
Kentucky Bourbon Trail, yep. Andconsidering you have to drive a
bit to get there, that
means you're getting ahead ofsome of the other, you know, big
names out there that peoplemight think would be first and
all that. So, so fourth ispretty good, but I, having met

(01:30):
you and heard about you andtalked to you just a little bit,
I get the feeling fourth isn'tquite good enough. You aiming
for third, second, first?

Caryn Wells (01:38):
Yeah, we, we might be a little competitive, but,
you know, we unders. Weunderstand that people are going
to make a trek out there. But wealso know, as you just stated,
We are a heritage member on theKentucky Bourbon Trail, and so
once you come to the distillery,and you get to see it and you
feel it, you know, we, we try tomake all of our experiences that

(02:00):
we offer to the public, we tryto make them all memorable, and
I think we do a very good job ofit.

So love to hear it. So we'll talk about a couple
of those experiences, includingthe Glen Karen experience, right
a bit, but I want to start withwith you and a little bit of the
history of Green River, as Isaid to Karen before starting
recording, because the historyof Green River distilling has
been covered so extensively inother podcasts, other even

(02:28):
friends of mine, their podcastsand such, I wanted to focus a
little bit more on the detailsand dig in deeper. So we're
going to bounce around a littlebit and hit tangents on that
history. But starting just withyou, you've been with Green
River under various names andownership for about, for about
10 years now, right close.

I'll be hitting a eight years in this coming year.
So yeah.

So starting and you start as a part time tour
guide went up to full time. Yep,brand ambassador. You know you
it's become your third career,as you've said,

Yeah, I do

really encourage people to listen to another
interview, to hear about yourprevious careers, because they
are interesting. I just don'twant to again. They've just been
covered, so try to make most useyour time, sure. Starting with
the like the big picture, whatare the just some of the biggest
changes you've seen as fromstarting from that tour guide

(03:31):
position all the way to nationalbrand ambassador, and almost
eight years there, yeah.

So from from a from a position at the at the
company, obviously, you know, alot of changes when you're a
tour guide. You meet all kindsof people you you're you're
saying the same thing over butyou're always trying to make it
different and fun and and relateit to the people that are there.
You know, moving into what I wascalled the lead tour guide and

(04:00):
and and training all of our tourguides that was that were coming
up behind me, it's veryimportant for me to help them
understand the significance whenpeople come to our distilleries,
whether it's our distillery orour Bardstown sister distillery,
or any any of the distilleries,we understand that people are
making a special trip to comesee US. So therefore we want to

(04:21):
make our tours and our time withthem special to them, and make
it memorable. So, you know,watching the distillery grow,
watching us go from when welaunched Green River into four
states to now we're in 45 statesand two countries. And by the
end of 2026 we'll be in all 50states. And watching the

(04:45):
watching the consumers go fromWho are you and what's Green
River to, oh my god, I loveGreen River. You know, I buy it
all the time. That hasabsolutely been probably one of
the. Highlights of being withthe company this long, to take a
brand from scratch and see it,get the, you know, the

(05:08):
notoriety, the well deservednotoriety, I will add, and the
love from the from the consumer,that's been absolutely
magnificent.

And you know, as you mentioned, this is a brand
that the Green River brand,specifically, was pre existing,
so originally from 1885 JWMcCullough, and it, long story
short, went away for quite abit,

Unknown (05:34):
yeah, and yeah, it left the it

left the general public in around the 1950s it
had tried to get revived acouple of times, but, you know,
for the most part, it was gone.

I mean, you had some strong names behind it
trying to do it. I mean, themedley family owned it all the
way until, well, until, really,2014

I guess the medley family owned the brand? No, no,
the medley family didn't own theGreen River brand. They they had
distilling operations going onat the distillery from mid 30s
to roughly, roughly 1989 late,late 80s. But when they had it,
they didn't own the Green Riverbrand. They had brands like

(06:22):
family, I'm sorry, yeah, that'sokay. The the medleys had the
the they had the Ezra Brooks,and they had mellow corn. And,
you know, they had a bunch ofbig names that they were
producing there, but, butunfortunately, Green River
wasn't one of them. And in, youknow, the brand itself was just,

(06:42):
it had just disappeared.

And the among the the major changes that have
happened since, the distilleriesbrought back online. So it was
purchased by investors in 2014and again, I'm doing a very
cursory history here, justpurchased by investors in 2014
2016 starts production again.2020 you get the rights to the

(07:06):
Green River name back from JWbecause grandson, 2022 Bardstown
buys Green River brings on isthe sister distillery. These are
major changes all happening inthe span of just over a decade?
Yeah, you know, these are thekinds of stories that I feel

(07:27):
like for other distilleries inhistory, we see happen over 50
years. Essentially, right.You're absolutely right. So one
of the questions that keptcoming to me through the
research and also just tryingthe products over and over is,
you know, looking back at atthis long history you mentioned
on Bourbon matters that thereare no extant mash bills from

(07:50):
pre prohibition, likely because1918 there was a fire that
destroyed the distillery. Andbecause of prohibition and other
things, as you said, they triedto to rebuild, tried to bring it
back, never quite got there. Youdo have a few bottles though,
1918 we do. And I know someoneelse has asked you about you

(08:10):
know, do you want to open thosebottles and see what it's like
and try to extrapolate fromthat? But it feels like to me,
although it has the same nameand generally same location,
it's not the same buildingbecause that burned down. But in
the bottling plants, foreignbottling plant, do you feel that

(08:31):
the modern Green River hasincentive to open those bottles
and extrapolate what what thatprofile was, or is it enough of
a kind of separate entity atthis point that you're making
your own profile industry? Yeah,that's a great question.

David, um, you know, I think, I think we can
look at it in two ways rightnow, with the mash bills that we
have, they're fantastic and andthey're winning awards, and
they're doing what we want themto do, which is, have people
enjoy them. And we make reallygood. You know, bourbon, weeded
bourbon, rye whiskey. So, youknow, part of the philosophy, I

(09:10):
think, is, if it's not broken,don't fix it. But from a
historical standpoint, it wouldbe absolutely fabulous to tap
into one of those bottles. Get asample, let our chemists do
their thing and find out whatthat match Bill was. Maybe we do
it on a anniversary. Maybe we doit as a distillery release only.

(09:34):
And I've said this a number oftimes on different podcasts and
just in general, talking withpeople you know, you get caught
between a rock and a hard placeif you open that 1912 bottle and
you get a sample of it. Nowyou've taken the value of that
1912 bottle and it's opened.It's it, it's it is what it is.

(09:56):
If you and people go, Well, ifit's a cork, just take a needle
instead. Get down in there andextrapolate what you need. Sure
we can do that, but then nowwe're introducing oxygen to it.
So I think there's a there'll bea time when, when that comes
down to a serious discussion,you know, amongst those that
make all the major decisions,would I like to see it? I think

(10:18):
absolutely I would. But I doalso have to keep in mind that
back in that era, you know, itwas a lot of it was corn
whiskey. They they weren'tadding a lot of other grains
into it. There obviously weren'tthe rules to making bourbon,
such as we have since 1964 andand there was a lot of, well, I

(10:40):
won't say filler in the GreenRiver side, but, you know it
was, there was a lot of grainalcohol involved in it, so it
could be interesting. Well,we'll have to see. But if you
asked me to take a vote, I wouldsay, Sure, let's do it, you
know, let's take a bottle. Let'sgo ahead and find out what we've
got there and and let's havesome fun with it.

Levine, this is Green River was so prized it was
awarded around the world at atime when I think both you and
Aaron, Aaron Harris had still amaster still, excuse me, both
have pointed out this is a timewhen it wasn't that easy to get
whiskey around the world, yeah,and you were winning awards in

(11:23):
Paris, in Milan, in London, youknow, the top, top places. And
you had, you know, designationsand things like this. And at one
point, were the most expensivewhiskey ever with the I do want
you to share the goldmine story,because I have a shout out to

(11:44):
make as a as a result of it, ifthat's okay,

yeah, sure. So John McCulloch traded 20 barrels of
Green River whiskey for sharesof the forest Queen gold mine in
Colorado, and the gold the theforest queen had two locations,
one was in Crested Butte, andone was in Cripple Creek. And
the mine, one of the minespanned out, and that made Green

(12:10):
River the most expensive whiskeyever sold.

So yeah, so I, as you said, you you certain
stories get told over and over,and you're always trying to take
a new angle on them, and Iappreciate that. However, I want
to shout out the host of SIPwisely, who was the only host I
heard call out the panned outpun for gold mine history. I
always do that. I kept waitingfor them to do it, and nobody

(12:35):
else said it. So shout out tothem for just yeah, what I was
thinking

that whole time I do, I do when I'm speaking. No
pun intended, but it did panout.

So no pun fully intended. That's that's fine. So
just a little bit more on on thehistory, and we'll bring it up
to the modern day. You know,Green River, pre prohibition
was, it was the official whiskeyof the US Marine Hospital. Yeah,
among other other, again,designations and assignments.

(13:07):
And today, you're the officialwhiskey of the US Army.

Yeah, recently, very high honor for us. Yeah,
recently, you released

a special edition for the Army's 250th anniversary
from Mash bill I aside from thehospital, because I doubt many
hospitals have official whiskeysanymore, right? Little illegal
there, but little little bit,you know, conflict of interest
kind of thing. But is there, Iguess, is there something about

(13:35):
Green River, both the pre proedition and modern iteration,
that seems to just sync with thearmed forces. Is there something
deeper than that, or is itcoincidental?

You know, I think it's a two fold thing, or really
maybe even threefold, you know,I look at it where people in
general like American history,and I think they like stuff that
they can actually research andand physically see and and maybe
even go touch, you know, andwhatnot. I think when you're

(14:09):
putting the the United StatesMarine, hospital and public
health services is technicallywhat that group was called back.
Then you put that in one, onegrouping, and then you, you tell
people, go research it, go seeand then you find the old
bottles that that say it theofficial whiskey of the United
States, Marine Hospital andpublic health services. I think

(14:30):
that kind of resonates in thatrespect. We were honored. I know
you know our CEO is, is MarkIrwin, and he is a retired
colonel from Delta Force,obviously the highest, most
elite trained men and women inthe United States Army. So we
were very we were very honoredthat the army reached out and

(14:54):
asked us if we could do this forthem for their 250th
anniversary. And. I think whenyou put all of that together, it
just it, it shows, just showshow, how honored. You know, not
only we are as a brand, but justthe community in general and the
army in general, and thefamilies of all of those

(15:16):
soldiers that that sacrifice,make all the ultimate some of
the ultimate sacrifice, but makesacrifices every day to defend
our country. So, I mean, I thinkthat's the tie in that you can
use to see how I don't know justhow honored we are for it.

To me, it was particularly interesting
because, of course, with nodisrespect meant to Green River
at the time that that decisionhad to be made of who, which
whiskey was going to be, theofficial one of the army for the
250th anniversary. Excuse me,Green River, you were producing,

(15:55):
but at that point you hadn't putout your own product yet. That's
it was in February 22 that thefirst product came out. Right.

We released Green River officially to the United
States, officially to everybody.On February 10 to 22 the army
came to us last year, inNovember of last year, and asked
us if we could produce their250th anniversary.

Gotcha okay. So I think what I'm, what I may be, I
certainly am confused. That is,there was that unique mash bill
that was used?

Oh, no, yeah, we well, we have, you talk about
the 75% corn, 15, rye, 10,malted barley, yeah. So, you
know, we laid down a bunch ofdifferent mash bills when we
first started, just like anybodydoes. So back in 2016 when we
first started putting productdown, you tend to run a bunch of

(16:51):
different things. When you'refirst starting out, you're not
going to know exactly whichone's going to take hold and
which one you're going to want.So when we did do the army, when
the army reached out, wethought, you know, let's make it
completely unique. Let's make itdifferent from the standard
Green River. We could havetaken, you know, just our 70
corn, 21 rye, nine malt, put itin a bottle and put it out

(17:13):
there. But to the consumer andto the army, you want it to be
unique. You want it to bespecial. You want it to be one
of a kind. So for that, yeah,that's, that's, we just chose to
use a different mash bill onthat one.

Gotcha, I think I had used the word extrapolated
again, that because the army hadits own mash bill, or had that
specific mash bill for theirrelease, that maybe four or five
years ago, they had somehowchosen that. And then yeah, the
timeline in my head, yeah,

yeah, no, they literally that all that all
transpired last November. Itstarted, I should say, last
November when they asked, Hey,can you guys do this so?

And to go back to that question about when to
crack those old bottles, talkingof anniversaries 10 years until
the 100 and 50th for GreenRiver. So that's that's just
enough time to do the research,test a few things out, and maybe
eke out a second run of testingif you

need to. Yeah, yeah, we and you know who's to

Unknown (18:19):
say we haven't Fair enough. Fair enough, I want to
say we

haven't put something special down. You
know, Aaron Harris, our headdistiller. He's super talented,
you know. And of course, we haveour whole team between our
Bardstown campus and our GreenRiver Campus. You know, when
we're doing stuff like this, youknow, Dan Calloway leads our our
whole team as as a as a whole,and then you got Nick Smith at

(18:43):
Bardstown. You got Aaron Harrisat Green River and and between
everybody. I mean, I think wehave a wide variety of pallets
and an immense amount of talent,as far as creating unique and
and sturdy and well developedNashville's.

And that's going to be the second, the next
timeline that I get to in in thetimeline of recent Green River
history, just to keep itchronological, because I'm a
little OCD. I'm I did want toask so we got the naming rights
back. Brand relaunches in 2020JW McCullough's grandson had

(19:28):
held it now. The originalinvestor group had bought in
2014 and restarted, but it tooka few years to finally get that
back. I would love to hear alittle more about the story of
kind of, you know, why? Maybeeither, why not originally in
2014 why had to wait until 2020like, what was the impetus for

(19:50):
his grandson to finally say, Youknow what? This is the time I'm
ready to to sell this back.

Yeah, that's, that's great question. So
originally in. 14 the bestinvestors that started it, you
know, find, you find theproperty, it's in shambles. It's
going to take a couple of yearsto get it back up and running,
because it hadn't been used as adistillery in over 20 some
years. So it, you know, we had alot of roofs to deal with. The

(20:18):
still was a mess. So once youget things going and up and
running, then you start, youknow, really digging deep into
the history. And what, what wedid find was the original name
being Green River. It wasactually JW McCulloch, great
grandson that had the rights toto the name. And so, you know,

(20:39):
then you got to find him. Thenyou got to get in contact with
him, find out. Hey, are you evenwilling to, you know, to turn
over or sell, obviously, thenaming rights, and that just
takes time. And of course, a lotof it started, or I should say,
it didn't start. But when we didget the naming rights back, we
were actually ready to torelease Green River back to the

(21:03):
public in 2020 butunfortunately, right in the
middle of covid, you know, thatwas supply chain issues out the
door on that one so that thatcaused us to hold off and not
actually put the first GreenRiver out until 2022

and it's, I know at the at the time, that must
have been extremely difficultfor many reasons, to hold back
the product, to not have thesupplies you needed, the dry
stock to make this happen. Andyet, as well as we'll come to in
a little bit, it's hard to arguethat the first releases fell
short of expectations. I mean,they, they met and exceeded

(21:44):
expectations, it seems so, yeah,who knows that extra little
time? You know whether an IBCcould have, you know, turn the
turn the tide. Yeah. And thenthere's also the period before
green, before you get GreenRiver back where the distillery
is named Ozzie Tyler. Now, it'sbeen a few years now since what

(22:09):
I'm calling like the Ozzie Tylerperiod, as the national brand
ambassador, even just as tourguides. Do you still get many
questions about that period, oris it more Green River?

Now it's really more Green River. I mean, people
that have followed the historyof the distillery will will
sometimes ask, or they'll wait,and, you know, if I'm doing, if
I'm speaking to a group, orwhatever, they might pull me
aside and say, Hey, didn't wantto, you know, wanted to ask,
but, you know, whatever. So, andit's part of our history. I
don't mind talking about it.It's just not who we are now. It

(22:44):
was not as I tell people whatreally wasn't meant to be a
brand. It was kind of like aholding place, and we were able
to get things going and startlaying everything down. And we
were, we were very fortunatethat typically, when you start a
distillery. As you know, most ofthe time you start making
whiskey, and then you startmaking vodka and gin, just

(23:06):
because it's a quick turnaround.And we were fortunate enough
that we didn't have to do that.So yeah, it was, it was, it's
part of our history, but it'snot where we focus everything on
now,

often with with the Ozzie Tyler whole mechanism
organization, I don't want tocall it, having really moved
over to South Carolina a coupleyears ago too. It's physically
separate as well. That theterrapyer system, excuse

me, yeah, we don't have any of that window. Yeah,
when we rebranded, all of thatwent away. Yeah.

So so with the last main turning point, let's
call it for now in 2022officially bartstown Bourbon
company buys buys Green River,you become a sister distillery.
And it really does seem that it,it's a sister operation, you

(24:05):
know, it's not as you weretalking about earlier. There's
the integration of the teams,there's there's the, you know,
Dan Calloway, and then asubordinate, if that's even the
right word, at each location.There's teams at each location,
but they talk to each other, andon some in some places, there's
a parallel in both distilleriesboth started with contracts to

(24:29):
get back up and running or toget running in the first place.
In Bard stands, in bar stands,case. But and both took good,
you know, five, six years to gettheir own brands really out the
door. But there's also thedifference in that, you know,
Bardstown was really built to bea contract distiller and to they

(24:53):
think their computer systemhandles like 51 different mash
bills, something like that.

Yeah, dude, 500 different. Points of
distillation, adjustments thatwe can make with the system
there at Bardstown, right?

So, you know, in insane over though, it's only
exceeded now by whiskey as ofKentucky, also under David
Mandel. So, you know, they'rebuilt for that to begin with.
They got 236 inch column stills,and all of this purpose built
for that, Green River is comingback online. I'm speaking Green
River even before. At thispoint, I'll refer to Green River

(25:29):
even 2014, and forward, just forease of keeping track. But you
were not necessarily built withthat. You know you, as you said,
there was a lot that had to beredone. I think Aaron said at
one point, was $25 million ofinvestment just to get the still
up and running, get the thefermenters, the condensers back

(25:51):
up, the boiler had to be redoneby Vendome. Is that all those
roofs as well? And then comesthe question of your Are you
doing it for contract, but alsojust selling for yourselves? So
when, when Bardstown and GreenRiver merged as a company, what

(26:13):
was that investment andtransition like from the inside?

Yeah, that's a great question. So you know, the
thing for us is that while wewere laying down Green River
product, we too were doingcontract distillation. And I
will, I go out and say this allthe time, we were, we were bards
towns, biggest competitor forcontract distillation. And while

(26:42):
we only, we weren't made for it,we did some other mash bills. We
could do some different things,but we really focused on about,
you know, five different mashrules, five or six different
mash bills. One still, that'sall we have. But she's a beast.
She's 54 inches in diameter andfour stories tall. So our one

(27:06):
still was producing 90,000barrels a year at the time that
Bardstown came over and said,hey, you know we could. We need
some more room. We need to beable to do more contract
distillation. And I was there. Iwas there the day that they came
and took a look at us, andactually took them around and

(27:27):
showed them, told them about ourhistory and everything. And I
think it was when they when theyunderstood the historical, you
know, value of what we had as abrand. I think that was the, the
turning point for everything,because it's like, oh my gosh.
Not only can we get all of thisextra distillation room, we have

(27:47):
a historic brand. So when wefirst joined, you know, there's
always hiccups whenever to youknow, two companies, two major
companies, merge together. Butoverall, from my perspective,
it's been a, it's been abeautiful transition, in the
sense that we were, we were infour states, in 22 when we first

(28:11):
started, and, you know, withinless than a year, we were in
2025 more markets. And in twoyears, we're in, you know, 40
markets now we are heading in.We just finished our third year,
right? You know, getting readyto finish our third full year,
and we're in 45 states and twocountries that, in itself, to

(28:34):
me, says that, you know thatthat's why I said earlier. It's
mind boggling to me to see inthree years time where we've
taken our brand and so, yeah, Ithink it's been a great
transition. I mean, there'salways, there's always some ups
and downs, there's always somehiccups along the way. I mean,
that's just to be expected whenyou're when you're in any

(28:57):
industry and anytime a mergerhappens. But as far as being as
being respected and loved andwell taken care of, yeah,
couldn't ask for anything more.

And I think it's a great segue to move into the
next section of questions aboutthis contract distilling. And
the reason I'm putting thatbefore the in house product deep
dive is just because it's thecontract thing, makes up 75% of
your output right now, which is,yep, on one hand, huge
percentage. And as you'resaying, when Bardstown came in,

(29:32):
you're doing 90,000 barrels ayear now, I think, as last year
was 110,000

Yeah, we had, we did 110 Yeah.

So huge, and sometimes doing like 400 to 450
barrels a day off that 54 inchcolumn, which is objectively a
huge number. It just is. It is.And yet you look at it and it's
like with heaven Hill openingthe. New their new distillery,

(30:02):
they'll have triple thatcapacity now. And Jack is just,
you know, different differentcategory. It's its own

category. Different beast altogether, right?

With but again, those aren't necessarily built
for contract design. They'remaking a lot for themselves. So
unlike many heritage brands,other than maybe Bardstown, and
sometimes maybe, includingBardstown, the brands that you
contract for seem to be quitewilling to call out that Green
River is their source, you know.And it can be explicit to say,

(30:41):
like flat out distilled at GreenRiver. It could say DSP, Ky 10,
or just say Owensboro, andyou're the only ones in
Owensboro, the only one. Butwhatever it is there doesn't
feel like when someone contractswith you or or even sources age
product from you, that there'snearly the secrecy of other
contract disorders. And I'mcurious, if that's of your

(31:06):
design, is it the nature of thepartners that you've chosen? Is
it just, it's so notable thedifference between you and
almost anyone else?

Well, I think part of it has to do with, you know,
the quality of what we'reputting out and the willingness
to work with our, you know, ourcontract partners. We have a
great contract team that goesout and, you know, works with
the works with these individualsor companies that you know need

(31:38):
a place to distill. Some of themwant to be very specific on
their mash bills. And they wantto do more. They want to have
more involvement in it, which iswhy, great you can, you can do
it at our BBC campus from theGreen River side of things.
It's, we're going to stay prettyold school in that respect. And

(31:59):
what you see is what you get.And I think you know,
personally, our products arewinning awards. I'm sure you are
aware that our we did bourbonwas just named bourbon of the
Year at the New York spiritscompetition. So huge honor right
there. Our foolproof got bourbonof the year this past year at

(32:21):
the Los Angeles spiritscompetition. So again, you know,
when you're when you'reconsistently putting out a high
quality product, to me, it'sonly natural that, if you've got
a brand, they know you don'thave a distillery, they want to
know, where are you getting yourstuff from? It's only natural to
say, well, heck, we're getting aGreen River. You know? I mean,
it doesn't mean it's the sameMashable, it doesn't mean it's

(32:43):
the same proof, the same agestatement. There's so many
variables in there, but to knowthat the quality is going to be
there, that is the key to me, asto why people want to call it
out. And it

helps as well. In addition to, as you were noting
your own awards under the GreenRiver label, some of the brands
that you're producing for arewinning the top awards.
Recently, we had blue note on asa guest, and they're getting
double platinum, two of the sixdouble Platinums in San
Francisco. Yep, that wasprobably the, the only show that
outranks New York and in the US,at least, like it's these are

(33:17):
major awards, and it all comesback to they're like, yes, we
won this award. We're aging itin Memphis, but we distilled
this with the team at GreenRiver. Yeah. And it's it does
speak a lot to the quality, forsure. And I was thinking too,
what is the is the balance ofproducts more towards the the

(33:40):
you the the partners wanting tocontract to still, versus and
take new makers, or, you know,start from the beginning of the
process, versus ones who want tosource age product is more
towards that former group.

I mean, I think you got a little bit of both. You
know, you got some people thatjust they want to be able to
come in and pick barrels andthen do with them what they
want. And that's fine. I mean,you know, there, there's some
really, you know, phenomenalpalettes out there, people that
have some unique ways offinishing them or whatnot, and
you can do with it what youwant. Then you have others that

(34:20):
just want to be a little bitmore involved. They just don't
have a don't have a still, youknow, they don't have the
capabilities of doingeverything. So I think that
aspect of it, too is a it's atwo fold thing, just depending
on whatever anybody wants. Iwill say this, David, I think
one thing that that people needto to if they're not aware of,

(34:40):
but they need to take intoconsideration. You know, our
still is a beast. It's stainlesssteel, but everything that does
the refining on the liquid isthe copper doubler right between
and our copper doublers from1984 it was the last major
purchase that Charles medley.Did before the distillery shut

(35:02):
down later in the 80s, thatcopper doubler was made to last.
And you know, to me, I thinkthat speaks volumes as to why
the quality of what we're doingpeople often forget too. They
think that Well, you know, theeastern side and the central

(35:22):
side of Kentucky, they all siton limestone water. So do we? We
have four wells that we use sothere, you know, there's a big
difference there on a lot ofstuff, and it's like some of
these nuances. People forgetthat back in the late 1800s
Owensboro, Kentucky was themecca for distilleries. We were

(35:45):
bigger than than Frankfurt andBardstown. So that has to tell
you something that you know,just a little you know, little
nuance there, that it's likemaybe, maybe we are sitting on a
gold mine,

for sure. I mean preaching to the choir and
saying this the whole limestoneaquifer, limestone filtered
water. I'm not, I don't questionthe veracity of it. But to your
point, the guys in Frankfurt,Lawrenceburg, you know, central
and eastern Kentucky, are notthe only ones on limestone

(36:20):
lives. It's like 80% of thecontents of the US is on
limestone, you know. And we cannitpick the types and all that,
but ultimately, that's whatwe're dealing with. Like it's,
it's not as singular as it wasmade to be even 510 years ago,
when that was the whole thing.It was Kentucky had the best

(36:41):
water, and

maybe you do, but it well. And some people still,
some people still have the theunderstanding that it has to be
made in Kentucky, because it hasto be made with limestone water,
and it's like, No, those are,you know, it is. It is what it
is. But we try to, we try to fixthose fallacies when we're out
there speaking to people,

I know that's you've said. That's one of the
places where your your teacherside comes out, yeah, correct
the misunderstandings, thefallacies, but on the positive
side, also seeing the light bulbmoments for people, when they
make a connection,

it is, I think that's the that to me. That's
the most fun part. When I'mgoing out and you actually see
them go, Oh, that makes sense.Now, I get it. Those are the
highlights for me. And andhaving people, you know, willing
to try, you know, as I alwaystell people, Bourbon is an
acquired taste, you know, that,you know, and and it's but if

(37:42):
you just give it a chance andyou and you start to understand
its nuances, then you it may notbecome your, your everyday go
to, but you can appreciate whereit's come from and the work that
goes into it. And I think thatis a huge thing,

absolutely, and with what you're putting out
now, and this is kind of atransition between the contract
selling and in house products atyou know, 75% being contract 440
50 barrels a day, 110,000barrels going out. And that 54

(38:19):
inch beast column, still, if I'mdoing the math right, and I may
very well not be, but if I'mdoing the math right, that's
still not 100% capacity for youguys. So is there interest in
getting closer to 100% capacity?Is there demand, given the state

(38:41):
of the industry right now?

Yeah, that's great question. So yeah, you know, I
think you're right. If you dothe math, we're doing about 75%
capacity on the still. So if wewere to open or wide up and run
it, you know, we could, I know,one day we did 800 barrels on
the still, good Lord, and rightexactly so if we opened her wide

(39:07):
up, we probably be closer to150,000 barrels. But I think you
know, you have to be logicalright now, currently, we have
about 600,000 barrels aging in27 Rick houses. So we, you know,
we want to watch the supply anddemand. And we could, I don't

(39:28):
know that we will right now, butas the as as the climate goes,
and as the demand requires, youknow, sure, yeah, we could. We
could theoretically do that, butright now, we're happy where
we're at and and just workinghard to maintain the the the
quality and the high standardsthat we've already set for

(39:49):
ourselves and and the highstandards that the consumer has
come to expect. That is our goalright now.

So I know the answer to this question, but I'm
curious how much you get out.Step when you say that the still
is, except for the very top,where you've got the six bubble
plates that are copper, the restis all stainless steel. Do you
get people saying, well, it'sall not copper. How is that
working out?

Yeah, so it's rare to find a completely copper
still, you know, it's, usually acombination. And obviously,
stainless is the other way togo. You know, when people walk
in, they say, oh, but it'scopper right there where you can
see it. Yeah, that's just acopper shield. You know, the
copper condenser at the top iscopper, the doubler is copper,

(40:36):
but the still, the actualworking portion of it is all
stainless. So, yeah, quite a bitsometimes, especially when
people are standing right therein

front of it. It's another one of it's a great
story. It looks great inpictures to be in front of this
beautiful copper shield, yeah.But when, when you think about
it, just chemically, you don'tneed copper, until you get to
the vapor point, you don't needcolor. And stainless is so much
cheaper. So much more cheaper.Yep, so, and I know that's also
when you're starting to getinto, like the nerdy group, the

(41:07):
groups that would have me inthem. So with the you got 27
Rick houses, also,coincidentally, 27 fermenters at
one point when you were reallybuilding up capacity. I think
Aaron said you were building anew warehouse every 90 days or
so.

We were, yeah, we were, at one point, the last,
the last two that we built, webuilt them last year, and they
were, they were 90 days apart,26 and 27 were there, they each
hold their seven stories tall.They're traditional Rick houses
built by busick, and they eachhold 58,800 barrels. Now, the

(41:51):
property that we built those on,also has a massive concrete
building. It was an old tilefactory, and so what we did is
we took that building andretroed it and made it where we
can actually use that as apalletized Rick house. And we
can, you know, use that wherethat should be able to store,

(42:15):
depending on how we do it, buttheoretically it should be able
to store about 100,000

barrels rolls off. Should we still store 100,000

barrels so we're good for a

little bit, a little bit the I should ask,
does does Green River get anypreferential treatment with
Aaron being married into thebusick family?

Yeah, you'd like to think so, but, uh, yeah, I don't
know. I mean, it was, it workedout well when they did those two
last year, because wedesperately needed them. But
yeah, I don't, I don't know howdeep that, that special
connection, how well it worksfor us. I think we still get put
on the list as well,

still building Rick houses. So there's, there's
right. In addition to that, tothe concrete building that is
going to be used as a Rickhouse, you've also got at least
five clay tile Rick houses, wedo. And I'm, I was really
curious hearing about this. Ilove the nerdy little details
like this where, like, why didthose warehouses exist? And, you

(43:27):
know, were they leftovers? AndI'm going to spit out a bunch of
questions, but I'm throw it toyou. I know you can, I know you
got it all in there, you know,like, why do these exist? What
do they do differently for theaging and also, when, when
you're building new Rick houses,was there any thought to
building new ones that mimickedthese clay tile ones?

Great questions all the way around. I'll see if I
can, I can answer it all here.So first and foremost, the clay
tile Rick houses. There's fiveof them. I, to my knowledge, I
think we're the only other. Theonly other distillery it has one
is Woodford Reserve. So I thinkthose are really unique to Green
River. It was a very expensiveway to build Rick houses, even

(44:12):
even back in the in the 1930seven before. But the medley
family had a family member thatwas in the clay tile business.
So when they went to rebuild theRick houses, it was kind of a
natural thing. Was it really athree fold system here? Or the
way that it transpired a theyhad a family member, so they got

(44:36):
a cut rate deal on it. But moreimportantly, the clay tile are
really good insulators. And yougot to remember, after
Prohibition, everybody was in ahurry to start making bourbon
and start selling it again. Andso the uniqueness is, is the
clay tile has the independentlysealed air pockets. There's
three of them, and they what,what it does is it allows for.

(45:00):
Longer seasons inside those Rickhouses and the the medleys also
attached what was called blowerhouses on to them, where they
could actually push air throughand push heat through. So it was
an early way of doing heatcycling, which was adding extra
seasons into the aging processevery year, which was then

(45:21):
allowing that liquid to maturefaster, so that they could then,
in turn, you know, get it outand sell it. We also use it, you
know, it's great for climatecontrol. It's great for
humidity. The play tile is moreporous so it breathes. It
allowed the building to breathea little easier on everything.

(45:44):
And, yeah, they're reallyunique, but man, they do some
phenomenal aging on thatbourbon. They really, really do
is

this one of these cases where maybe don't want to
put you on the spot too much.Maybe we might see a release or
two, special release from theclay tile Rick houses.

Well, I'll be honest with you right now,
anything, anything with theGreen River name on is coming
out of the clay tile Rickhouses, and we, I mean, that's,
that's we like that. We'd likeour flavor profiles that are
coming out of those clay tilework houses. So, yeah, I can, I
can, I can tell you that

in that case, then I will submit to a GoFundMe to
throw some clay tiles on everyworkhouse you put up. Because,
right, like I said, the initialprofiles have just been
phenomenal. Great. Yeah, thankyou. I remember trying the first
Green River one that I hadaround. It must have been around
the time I was at the KBF,because it was, that was the

(46:47):
year that you had done the firstrelease in 22 and Yeah, that
must have been when I tried it.And immediately I was like, this
is you don't often have adistillery when their first
product is that good, mature,ready, not really needing more.
Yeah, and at 35 bucks, yeah,line price, 35 bucks, yeah,

you did ask, I think I didn't answer. Had we
thought about building more ofthose? Actually, our Rick house
B, that we actually do, all ofour single barrel picks in that
Rick house is a hybrid when ithad a partial collapse, and when
we tried to rebuild it there,there were no clay tile

(47:31):
businesses around. So it is, itis half concrete block and with
a brick overlay, and the otherhalf is clay tile. So today, to
be able to do that, no, wecan't, you know, we can't do it.
So we're, we're goingtraditional, with just your your
wooden Ricks and the metalsiding.

I think it would be, it would be challenging, to
say the least, to keep a $35price point when having to
invest in if you could find abusiness that can make that many
clay tiles right to make thatinvestment.

So yeah, and industrial clay tile is, I
wouldn't think would be verycheap right now, no.

So that brings us into our the next segment about
the in house products. So the inhouse product, the Black Label.
Ride, bourbon, 7021, nine recipethat was the first one that came
out. It's about 60% of youroutput, from what I've heard

(48:32):
with the the weeded bourbon andthe rye now catching up stock
wise, because those weren'tstarted to like 17 or 18. So the
ride bourbon had a couple ofyears Head Start. Do you foresee
that kind of 60% being the go toratio, kind of going forward
based on that could be based ondemand, but you're seeing, Oh

yeah, that's great question. I we know. So the
Black Label, the high ripe urbanand then our full proof, which
is still the high ripe bourbon,just at full proof, they, yeah,
they probably hold the biggershare right now and and, but
with weeded, having just one andpeople now realizing, Hey, this

(49:20):
is an everyday shelf item for 35bucks. You don't have to stand
in line for it. You don't haveto, you know, put your name on a
list or whatever. I think we'regoing to see a higher demand on
that. And then, you know, with,with respect to the rye, it's a
95 five rye that when, when I'mdoing tastings with people. I

(49:42):
tell them, It's a bourbonlover's rye. It's not up in your
as I like to say, it's not allup in your business. It's a very
flavorful, you know, nicedrinking rye. I think we're
going to see a bigger spike inour weeded and our rye in the
coming years, simply because Ithink people are starting to.
Branch out a little bit more.But that being said, the high

(50:05):
rye bourbon is our biggerproducing Nashville that we that
we have out there.

Yeah. And was it a this year or the previous year
when there were only maybe 100weeded single barrels available?

Yep, that was this year. We our standard single
barrels. When we first starteddoing what was the high ripe
bourbon this year, we added in100 weeded single barrels, and
that was for all the marketsthat you know was that? Was it?
So it'll expand. And it's, asyou stated it already, we didn't

(50:39):
lay down as much weeded bourbonor rye whiskey when we first
started and we didn't lay itdown as soon. So, you know, we
want to wait. We want to waitmake wait and make sure that the
products that we and the barrelsthat we put out there, for
single barrels or for anotherrelease are are the same good

(51:01):
quality that we've already got.You know, we don't want to put
it out too soon and go, ah,green rivers and doing great,
and then they threw this outthere. So we want to make sure
that it stands up to our ownstandard. And then, and then
you'll see more of it for sure.

And I do want to note that just a couple of,
maybe two days or so beforewe're recording this the TTB
finally catching up after theshutdown released the foolproof
weeded label. Is that right?Yes, and we've got our mutual
friend and massive Green Riverpromoter Jacob Kuiper too. Do

(51:40):
thank for making us aware ofthat so we can look forward to
that as well, and maybe in thecoming year.

Yeah, I think so. I think I don't know, I don't get
much inside information, but Ithink, I think everybody will be
pretty happy,

and I've got to ask, and this is going to be
probably the most blunt questionI'll ask tonight, and it's very
out of character for me. But whythe hell does your 95 five ride
taste so different than whatwe're expecting from 95 five in
a good way?

Yeah, no, that's that's okay, because I always
tell people, it is not yourstandard 95 five rye. You know,
MGP makes a phenomenal 95 fiverye. But typical to a rye at 95
proof or 95% rye, it's verypeppery, it's it's strong, and

(52:39):
you have, it's a very much anacquired taste. I always
describe ours as the bourbonlover's rye, mainly because we
use the same yeast strain thatwe made our bourbon with to make
that rye. So when you even noseour rye whiskey, you will if I
don't tell you that it's a 95five rye, you'll know it's

(53:01):
different, but you would neverput it in the category of a 95
five rye. Now it is Earth yearand drier on the palate when you
drink it, typical of a rye, butit's, as I said, it's not all up
in your business. So I thinkit's very flavorful. It's to me,
I always say it's the rye that'sgoing to get people to start

(53:23):
trying more of them, becauseit'll, it'll help you understand
them sooner, but it holds upgreat in a cocktail, you know.
It makes a fine Manhattan, youknow. So there's, there's
nothing wrong with it, eitherway, however you'd like to drink
it.

I absolutely loved it, and I had a kind of a
version of it, if you will. Inone of the earliest interviews I
did was with wheel horse, yeah,when they released their ride,
which latitude? Beverages, yeah,exactly. And even then, I
remember thinking, wow, thisrise. Really, really good, Ryan,

(54:00):
then I got the press sample forwhen you released. And just so
damn good. But again, it's, it'sso it is so different. It's this
fruitier, much more. I don'twant to use mellow. That's not
quite there, because it's fullof flavor. It's, but it's, it
just doesn't have that, spice,the dill, herbaceous notes. And

(54:24):
in that sense, I love it,because it just lets the flavor
roam free and have that muchmore power without making you
feel like you've had a mint orsomething

during Yeah, yeah. It's, it's a more versatile
ride. Yeah, is the way I liketo, you know what I mean it.
Because lot of times, unlessyou're a an avid neat drinker,
like that's all you do, and youonly drink the higher proofs,
the hotter, you know, spicieryou're you're not going to like

(54:56):
a rye whiskey to drink it neat.That's you're going. To use it
as a mixer, which is fine, butI, as I say, I tell people, this
is going to be the rye thatyou're going to be able to sip
on, because you're actuallygoing to taste something other
than just getting pepper andmint and your palate shot.

You know, rye revolution is real, and I'm all
here for it, but it did come onthe back of cocktails. So we had
to ease in a little bit. Yep,yep. So one more question for
you before we get into what Ithink we my favorite segment,
the Glen Karen experience. Sowhen the foolproof first got
released, so as you said, thefull proof version of the Black

(55:36):
Label rye. Sorry, Black Labelbourbon. Sorry, ride bourbon. So
I was thinking, you sold out afull year's allocation in a
month and a half. Yep. Andwhenever I see something like
that, I have to wonder, and thisis my question to you, is that,
was this the team just, like,totally caught off guard, but
like, wow, this is like, Okay,people just bought everything

(55:59):
off the shelves. Was theresomething that you were doing as
a team to really drive upinterest that took on a life of
its own, like what happenedthere that it went so haywire or
bonkers?

Yeah, what happened was, we have a great sales team
first, first and foremost, sothey know their markets. And you
know, they were asked, Hey, whatdo you think you can sell? You
know, what do you think you needto get through the end of the
year? And when they told us,7000 cases, we're like, okay,

(56:31):
7000 cases. That's fine. And asyou said, it sold out in a month
and a half. What did it was whenpeople started tasting it. And I
will say, social media. Youknow, when we send out media
kits and whatnot, the reviewswere just off the charts. And
you know, people, the consumerthat wants to drink the higher

(56:55):
proof. Well, the first one thatwe put out was one 17.3 it
drinks like it's about 100 110and the and the suggested retail
on it is $50 4999 you know, itjust blew everybody's mind that
they could get that good of aquality of a product. The flavor

(57:18):
profile on it, the proof on itwas right and the price point
was right. So I think in thatrespect, we all underestimated
how well it was going to goover, but we were also very
quick to go. We can do more. Andwe've done I think we're on our
fifth batch of it now.

So not too bad at all, as a quirk of marketing.
And feel free if I don't know ifyou're part of these
conversations or not, butnormally, when I hear full
proof, or when it's used moreoften, it's full proof is like
the proof that went into thebarrel, whereas in, in Green

(58:01):
River's case, it seems to be theequivalent of a cast strength,
barrel strength thing, where thePROOF might be a little bit
different each time, or, youknow, per batch, right?

Yeah. So there is no, there is no technical legal
term for what full proof is,right? So for, for some, for
some distilleries, yeah, theywant to. They they say their
full proof is the the proof thatthey stick it into the barrel,
which we stick ours in at 120proof. Everything goes in the
barrel at 120 but for us, whatwe, as you just said, we define

(58:35):
our full proof bourbon as thefull proof of all the barrels
that we use in that particularbatch. So if we're doing 250 300
400 barrels for a batch, when weget the flavor profile where we
want it, you know, when we'rewhen we're pulling these samples
and everything, what it provesout at, that's when it gets

(58:56):
bottled at. So I think that is atestament. You know, some people
are like, well, how can that be?You know, if you put it in at
120 How can it be 117 three, andthat's where you have to go
through and explain how thebarrels age differently on the
different floors. Some loseproof. Some gain proof. You
know. How do we get hazmatbarrels? Well, they gain proof

(59:17):
if they're sitting on the rightfloor, you know. So, you know,
that is that whole marrying ofthe barrels to produce the right
flavor profile, and then when weproof it, that's what it is, and
that's, that's what the peopleget.

And 689, years down the line, when you've got
some the other seven story, 50100,000 barrel Rick has on
there. All right, you might havesome easy Hazmats there.

But yeah, yeah, we've got some that are getting
close. They had some singlebarrels this year that have hit
133 136 I think so. Not too badthey're getting there.

No, to me, I consider that's like, I always
compare companies and because Itry to contextualize and like,
that's where most Jack Danielssingle barrels top out. It is
around that midwife range,

Caryn Wells (01:00:03):
I try to remind people to that, and it's hard I
understand how people are, buthigher proof doesn't make it
better. You know, I look at theflavor profile, that's me. I
want it to be well balanced. Iwant it to have certain flavors
in it. That's what makes it agood single barrel for me.

David Levine (01:00:24):
But for sure, I have come to that as well. I
definitely went through my highproof phase when I didn't
necessarily have to be like hasbeen high proof, but I liked the
high 130s even the high 120s ifit had a real beast of a
character to it. And now I'm Ienjoy them, but I'm more
comfortable in that, like 115 to125 range, if I'm really going

(01:00:46):
to enjoy it. Yeah, I just throwme this out there as a as a
comparison. Recently had a jackDaniel samples the tan yard Hill
rye, which was hazmat. And I waslike, Yes, this is really,
really good. It's also the firstwhiskey that made my eyes water
in several years. Damn. That wasstrong. Anyway. So to the star

(01:01:12):
of the show, we've got to moveon to the Glen. Karen
experience. Oh boy. All right,so in case people are just
listening to this and won't readthe title. First name is spelled
C, A, R, Y, N, which, now that Isay that out loud, is actually
not that relevant for what I'mabout to say. But that's okay,
still good to know you need thatit's Karen with a C and a y, but

(01:01:34):
the Glen Karen experience, so Ido all my tastings in Glen
Cairns. I drink very often inGlen, Karen's, I just enjoy the
experience. If I'm not doing arocks glass, and it's, it seems
to be the de facto go to tastingglass when you go places. Yes,
some will use copitas or tulipsglass. They're always

(01:01:57):
exceptions. But the Glen, Karen,you put that in front of
someone, they're going to go,Okay, I'm familiar with this
now, putting together the Glenand the Karen to make Glen
Karen, easily one of the bestnamed experiences in whiskey,
period. Thank you. And again,with you being the one of the

(01:02:18):
faces of Green River, andcertainly to my mind, embracing
that nature of being one of thefaces, it just makes sense. You
know, it's like, it's likeFreddie Johnson doing the hand
clap to get the flavors out.It's something that is signature
to a face of a brand. And one ofthe parcels that I love the most

(01:02:42):
is that Martin Duffy is theNorth American brand rep for
Glencairn. Totally on board withthis. Yeah, you know, yeah.
Still no issues from Glenn Karenwith this, right?

No, no, no. But I use them in my I use my, my
experience, you know, and peoplewho come to you know, when I do
the Glen Karen experience, theyget to take one home. So that's
always a nice little tidbit toyou know, you can never have
enough Glen Karen's. I don'tthink

I might, my wife might dispute that, but yeah,
right. Collected a few at thispoint. But no, it is a great
experience, something to comehome with, with the experience.
And in, in coming up with thisexperience, I'm getting a
quarter for every time I sayexperience, and coming up with
this experience with,originally, with the VP of

(01:03:34):
marketing, sales,

yeah, Jim Lake, yeah.

This idea was, it was originally to be a tasting
that could travel like somethingyou could bring around,
something you could do corporateevents or other events with, but
something that didn't have to beat the distillery, right? And I,
you know, I find it fascinatingthat that was kind of where it
was going. Because again, youlook at the scale of Green River

(01:03:59):
on one hand, but also you'restill selling person to person,
liquid to lips. It's you're not,I feel like you're not that far
removed from the sales team indoing a tasting experience.

Well, kind of, sort of, I mean, I'm I technically, I
fall on the marketing side. Andso now the way that it
everything has evolved in it,with us being in the 45
different markets, they can,they request me, that our sales
team will request me. I'll comeout. They'll set up, whether

(01:04:31):
it's staff trainings or bourbongroups in the area and or just a
maybe it could be a fundraiser,you know, for somebody that I'll
do the I can do the Glen Karenexperience, which is all
sensory. I have different fooditems, spices that I pair with
each of our pores, and talkabout our history and go through

(01:04:52):
everything. So that's one of thethings that they can do this
year. We also added what'scalled the candy bar experience.
It's and that's where we takeold school candies and pair them
with our pores, just, you know,showing the consumer that it
bourbon doesn't have to bealways about food items, you

(01:05:14):
know, a heavy meal or anythingit can be with some fun, just
relaxing old school candies, youknow. And that has been pretty,
pretty popular this year, too.And I would love to take credit
for that one, but actually, DanCallaway came up with it, so I
put a few twists on it, here andthere, but, but it's kind of
neat, because I think it drawsin a different range of

(01:05:37):
consumers, ones that may be alittle bit more intimidated by,
oh, I'm going to go to a bourbontasting, and I have to sit there
and be proper and listen to thisstuff. And it's like, no, let's
have some fun. And, you know,just play around a little bit
and show you some unique thingsthat you can do with bourbon.

I wanted to ask you about your own experience
building up to this because youryour history, you know you drank
bourbon before getting into theindustry, and clearly have had
enough experience. Now thatyou've you've tasted a number of
different things, both in houseand around the country, if not

(01:06:14):
around the world. But before,before joining the industry, or
even before this experience cameabout, did you consider yourself
to have a good palette forwhiskey?

Oh, that's great question. No, no, I didn't. And
I'm pretty, pretty honest intelling everybody that you know.
I mean, I had to learn a lot ofdifferent things because I was
very naive. I mean, I think I'mlike most people when we get out
of college. I mean, we have allhad our college takes on

(01:06:46):
drinking whiskey, bourbon,whatever we could get our hands
on. If it my favorite line backthen was, if it's free, it's for
me, but, you know, you go withit. So no, I didn't, but I have
learned and and I think that'sthe and trained myself. But I

(01:07:07):
think it that makes it theeasiest for me to be able to
talk to people, because I canactually relate to what they're
I see their facial expressionsof like, I know what that facial
expression is, you know, becauseI've been there, and I think
that makes a big difference forthe consumer when they when they
come do a tasting, but at thesame time, I've done this for

(01:07:31):
enough years now that even tothe connoisseur, there might be
something that I can you know,share insight to that You didn't
think about before, that willhelp you understand that's why
they do it that way, or that'swhy they say it this way, you
know. And I think that's, that'swhat makes it fun for me, is

(01:07:52):
being able to bridge the gap,you know, between the two
groups.

And you said this on only bourbon fans. Can one of
my favorite names for a podcast,but only remember that the first
thing you taste is usually amemory. It is memory. And that's
really stuck with me. And whendid that kind of revelation come
to you?

Yeah, you know, it's kind of funny. When I first
started going to Bourbon societymeetings with my with my aunt,
and I'm listening to people allaround me talk about, oh I smell
tobacco and oh I smell mint andI smell this. And I'm like, Why?
Why would you say you smelltobacco? Why would you you know?

(01:08:37):
And in my mind, it was like, allI could think of was like cigar
tobacco or cigarette tobacco.And then one day it hit me, my
my extended family here inKentucky has grown tobacco for
years. They don't anymore, butthey did. One of the sweetest

(01:08:59):
smells that you will everexperience is walking into a
tobacco barn where tobaccoleaves are actually drying, and
it is an absolutely phenomenalsmell. It is so sweet and just
so robust, and all of a sudden,one day, I picked up a glass. I

(01:09:19):
don't even remember what, whatbourbon it was, and I noticed
it, and I'm like, that's it.That is it. That is the tobacco
barn. And I think so. I thinkfor a lot of it is, like, if you
experience somethingconsistently when you were
younger, that was a really happymemory, you know, whether it was

(01:09:40):
your grandmother making applepies and it was cinnamon, then
cinnamon is going to comeforward for you. You know what I
mean? You're going to alwayspull that out. I had somebody
else that said they can alwayspull out like a really strong
caramel. But, you know, andwhile caramel is really. A
popular for a lot of people.They were saying that their

(01:10:04):
their aunt was, it was a candymaker and always made caramels,
and that was the thing. It'slike, that's it. That's that
caramel right there. So I thinkthat's kind of cool when you,
when you when you realize that

I usually note the whiskeys that I love the most
are the ones that have that thatbring up that memory, a really
clear one, yeah. And the I'malso thinking about some of the
pairings that you've noted inthe past, such as the you've
said you get apricot driedapricot off of the weeded
bourbon. Yep. But when you'redesigning the taste and like

(01:10:40):
having a dried apricot next toit, it did it, it didn't, didn't
quite match up. So the one toone wasn't quite right, but
cherries, dried cherriesinstead. So you've got an
alternative stone fruit thatmatched instead. So when and
then for the rye, you've gotorange marmalade and Teddy

(01:11:01):
grams, not a Yeah, common mix.

Don't judge it until you try it. David, it's
really good.

No, honestly, that sounds delicious to me. I just
dipped the Teddy Graham right inthe marmalade, right? That
sounds great to me. And havinghad the ride, that makes a lot
of sense. It it matches. Sowhen, when you were building
these tastings, and be it theoriginal version, or even the
the candy version, candy barversion you've got now, did you

(01:11:30):
did you start with? Okay, I'msmelling this apricots, let's
say so. Let's start with theapricot and see if that matches,
and then build out from there.Or did you have a different
approach?

No, that's exactly what I do, and it's exactly what
I did, and I still do it to thisday. I think it's important that
a lot of times the aroma that wedo pick up on, it works, and you
can, you can taste it, it worksfabulously. That was one that
really kind of shocked me,because I was so excited. I

(01:12:02):
thought for sure that theapricot would work really well
with it, with with the weededbourbon as a as an actual
sipping and eat and drink at thesame time. I think it just goes
to show that, you know, theyeast strains that we use when
we're making bourbon, we cantend to get fruitier yeast

(01:12:23):
strains, right? We that that'sone thing that we look in yeast
strains when we're trying todecide what we're going to go
with. I think that helps withthe aroma a lot. But for us, I
was just stone fruits. Okay,what's the next stone fruit I
got to get? Okay, let's try, youknow, let's try a plum. Let's
try this. And then the cherry.The cherry just, it just popped

(01:12:48):
and it, it made it, it made itbolder, but it didn't take away
from the aroma of the apricot.So I think when you smell all of
those stone fruits together,that's what makes it so
delightful, you know, whenyou're doing it. So no, I just
play around with it. I when Igot to the rye, and I knew that

(01:13:09):
I liked the orange with it, Iwent through I wanted to do
like, you know, the old Orangepeanut candies, you know that
you they look like peanuts,

and they're, I was first thing. I was thinking, the
orange flavor peanuts, like,that's different. No, yeah, the
circus peanuts, right?

Circus peanuts. There you go. I wanted to use
those, Nope, didn't work. Iwanted to use, just like the the
candied orange slices didn'twork, you know, I'm thinking
what I've went to, Tic Tacsdidn't work, you know. So it
wasn't until, you know, and Isaid, marmalade, let's try it

(01:13:47):
with the citrus rind in it,because it gets a little bit of
that rind and and that's what itthat's what worked. Those are
some tough days. David, I mean,I'm, I'm having to sip and eat
and sip and eat.

That's Whoo. I mean, it, it sounds like one of
the rougher experiences you'regoing to have. And I applaud
you, and thank you for the forthe service you've done to us,
for going dedication. It is,yes, it is, it is noteworthy,
and we appreciate it.

I will always do that for you. David, always do
it for you.

Love it. Love it. What in that process? What do
you think has been the mostchallenging whiskey of yours to
pair?

Oh, that's great question. Really, the weeded,
really took it that was harderthan I thought it was going to
be. I thought for sure I wasgoing to whip that one right out
really quick, just because itwas, you know, so easy. I will
say, from the candy experience,there's a lot of different ones

(01:14:55):
again, that you think are goingto work with it, but there's
still a lot that you can play.Around with I've been very
fortunate that I think my palatehas grown significantly, that I
can pretty much determine whatwill work with it and and how
it'll sit but, but you alwaysget those surprises here and

(01:15:16):
there. So the weeded weeded forme was the one that surprised me
the most.

So I want this is going to be very specific to to
you, and you mentioned italready, which is tobacco. I got
to ask you about tobacco,because I use this as a flavor
note sometimes, and I have acouple of different like, I've
never been a smoker. I triedcigars and just it wasn't even
that. I didn't really enjoy it.I just couldn't get it and but,

(01:15:47):
you know, I've smelled the DarkFire tobacco in Western Kentucky
or southern Kentucky aroundlike, you know, MB Roland has
their dark fireman. So I'vesmelled that. I've been around
plenty of cigars, and and that'sreally kind of the limit of my
exposure to tobacco in its pureform. Now, when I'm writing a

(01:16:10):
flavor note and I feel liketobacco is one of them, I try to
differentiate you say, Allright, this is like a lighter
tobacco, like a Connecticutwrapper, or a darker tobacco or
something like this, but I alsofeel like there's a disconnect
because I'm not a user oftobacco. I didn't grow it. I
didn't grow up around it. I'dlove you to walk through just a

(01:16:33):
little bit more about like, whatthat particular flavor note
translates to, as for you.

Well, I think, you know, I don't, I don't, never
really smoked. I can't. I can'tsay that. I haven't, but I
don't, as a rule, my I've hadbrothers that have smoked pipes,
friends that smoke cigars. Imean, I'm around that too. When

(01:17:03):
the tobacco note came out to mein a bourbon, it's curing
tobacco. And that is a wholedifferent beast than just a the
the aroma that you get from acigar, or the aroma you know
from smelling a cigarette or anyof dried of dried tobacco.

(01:17:23):
Curing tobacco is very sweet. Itis, it is very, almost molasses.
See, you know, it's got thosedark, rich aromas to them, and
that's the that's really thebest way that I can describe it

(01:17:44):
to you. But if you, if youhaven't experienced walking into
or being around curing tobacco,we'll have to try and get you
out here when, when it's when,when it's hanging it's still dry
out in this part, or any, anypart of Kentucky where they're
where they're growing it. It isan aroma that you'll never

(01:18:06):
forget, because it just, it'slike breathing in, really, I
don't, I don't know how todescribe it. Really, fresh,
sweet, yummy, molasses. Seearomas is the best way that I
can describe it, sorghum. Youknow, sorghum that that deep

(01:18:29):
rooted aroma. And it is, it'sgreat. I mean, I could stand in
a tobacco barn and smell it allday long. When it's curing, once
it dries, it's different. Andonce it's once it's processed,
it's different, but that's how Idescribe it.

I as I heard, as I heard that story of you growing
up around or having family thatgrew up growing it. I was like,
I gotta ask her about this. Ihave plenty of friends who are
really into cigars, and they'vehelped me tremendously to get as
far as I've gotten with thetobacco sense, yeah, but it's,
it's just a differentperspective. Well, I hope that

(01:19:08):
helps. Yes, thank you. And Iwill, we will definitely, I want
to get down there. I really dojust spend the time there. But
we'll, we'll figure out thosedetails after, I want to make
sure we get through just likethree or four more questions at
maximum. Make sure we're notkeeping you too long to close

(01:19:31):
out the tasting portion theexperience. One of the things
you've said, You've shared somesome noteworthy experiences of
being at Whiskey festivals andlarge tastings and things where
people can't quite handle theiralcohol, let's say, or that, you
know, whatever else you want tosay about that. Now you made a

(01:19:51):
recommendation that it's likeload up on protein, not carbs,
beforehand. I think most of uswould think, okay, you want to.
Put up on bread and, you know,quote, unquote, absorb the
alcohol or be ready to do that.That doesn't seem to be the
case. So I wanted to ask youagain, like, why protein instead
of carbs? And how did that comewell,

it just takes your body longer to digest it. So if
you I like to eat more proteinbefore I go into a tasting and
don't, don't get me wrong, I'mgoing to eat carbs. I'm going to
eat the crackers and the breadand whatever when I'm, you know,
when I'm drinking, but that prebe when I'm getting ready to go
out. And I know I'm going to,you know, I will eat more

(01:20:30):
protein first, because it juststays in your stomach longer,
just takes your body longer todigest it, which then allows,
you know, there's more stuff inyour stomach for that alcohol to
have to work through as well.

Some people will be heavyweights or lightweights,
either way, but hopefullythat'll give them a maybe a
drink or two or taste or twoextra to Yeah, at a festival. So
in the last couple minutes, Iwant to talk about, you know,
pricing. We've talked about the,I think it's fair to say,
incredible pricing. You guyshave had the line pricing for

(01:21:04):
the core and even for thefoolproof in talking with
bourbon matters back in May, thehost asked you about tariffs in
the state of the industry. Atthat point, the tariffs are
pretty new. They're still kindof changing sometimes day by
day, but they were reallychanging day by day at that
point. And you'd said at thetime, exports to the UK and

(01:21:25):
Australia, the two countries youmentioned that you were
exporting to, were doing fine.You're not really hit too hard,
quite yet, you had a good pointthat a $35 bourbon or rise is
kind of recession proof, kind oftariff proof, in a way like
you're not gonna it's not soexpensive that it's going to
really hurt you. Yeah. Now, ofcourse, Green River and the

(01:21:50):
companies and great minds behindit couldn't foresee tariffs
going into effect, or any numberof economic things like that.
But at the same time, you didn'thave to come out of 35 bucks.
3499 like you probably couldhave come out at 50 for the core
range, and maybe 6570 for thefull proof. And I don't know how

(01:22:15):
much more or less you wouldsell, but you'd probably still
sell quite a bit. But coming inat that 35 I completely agree
with you that it's justrecession proof, that way. So in
in the six months or so sincethat interview, I'm curious, has
the game changed at all?

No, it really hasn't. And what most people
don't understand is that evenbefore anything in your tariffs
or anything like that happen tobuy alcohol over in the UK or or
Australia, it costs them an armand a leg. Even on our $35
bottle, they're going to bepaying 60 over there with their

(01:22:57):
own taxes, not not tariffs, andeverything else. That's, that's
what their governments put oneverything so, and I say that,
you know, I've got friends overin Australia and and we talk
about it, and it's like that itis what it is. So, no, I think
we were, I think it was aningenious move by our, you know,

(01:23:20):
the powers that be within ourcompany, when they first came
out and said, Okay, it's gonnabe $35 a bottle. I think it's a
two fold thing. And I'll say itagain. I think we are recession
proof, and in a sense of we'restill at a price point. People
are still going to want to drinksomething quality. It's quality,
it's quality, quality liquid.And we're on every shelf, and

(01:23:44):
you cannot feel guilty aboutdrinking the whole bottle. You
know, if I go and buy $100bottle of bourbon, I when I when
it gets to the halfway point,I'm gonna be looking at that
going, geez, as 100 bucks. Andit was only, I only bought it a
week ago, you know, where as youknow, I mean, truly and
honestly, just this weekend, Itook a single barrel down for my

(01:24:07):
brothers and I to enjoy, and itwas three quarters of the way
gone the first night. And so, Imean, I who cares? It was what
it cost me. I think it cost me50 bucks. 60 bucks. I think it
was $60 I don't get a discount,I just tell you that right now,
so I pay fair market value onit. So, yeah, you know, it's $60

(01:24:30):
but I knew it was a singlebarrel, you know? It's like,
okay, that's fine. Let's drinkit, you know? And I think that's
that's the key to our successright now, including any tariffs
that may or may not behappening. You know, in other
countries, it's not affecting usat all,

alright, so I know we are a time. Would you be okay
going five more just to coverthe last two legacy questions?
Yeah, I'm fine. Cool, cool. So Ido like to end on legacy
questions. And you. Really taketwo vantage points, so I'll
start with the companyperspective. Okay, so going back

(01:25:08):
quickly to history, Owensborohad 22 distilleries pre
prohibition, more than that inDavis County as a whole. So this
is a significant area ofproduction and jobs, like you
said earlier, you had more thanFrankfurt, more than Louisville,
lots of production, but jobs,economic incentives and economic
drivers. All of this gets lostat prohibition. Now, today

(01:25:35):
you're the only distillery inOwensboro. I don't know if
you're the only one in DavisCounty. I didn't have a chance
to check that.

Yeah. So Glenmore is on the other end of town, but
they're strictly a bottlingfacility for Sazerac. So yeah,
we're still the only distilleryhere.

Okay, so, so being the only distillery obviously
has its advantages, certainlycompetition and being able to
claim the only one and so forth,but it also does put pressure on
you in many ways. And with thathistory in mind, you know, I
know 100 years, century is along time. There's a lot of
differentiation now. There'sdifferent economic conditions.

(01:26:14):
But I did want to ask you, haveyou seen this new iteration of
Green River, 2014, and forward,been able to have an economic
impact locally that echoes thedistillery presence that used to
be in Owensboro.

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I
think, yeah, I think we have hadan impact, you know, being on
the Bourbon Trail, especiallywhen, you know there's the
passport system, and everybodyhad to get their stamps and
whatnot. I think that drew a lotof people, because in order to
complete it, you had to come tothe distillery and get that

(01:26:53):
stamp. I think that's, that'sthe first thing. I think the
second thing is, is that nowthat the brand is becoming
nationally recognized people arewanting to come see where it's
at. And so for that, yeah, we'restill, we're still having an
economic impact in that,bringing people to the
distillery, and then justtourism itself, people that are

(01:27:17):
on maybe they're coming to thetown to go see the Bluegrass
Museum and Hall of Fame, andthey're like, oh, and you've got
a distillery here. Even betteryet, let's go, you know. So
there's a lot of festivals anddifferent things that happen in
and around the area. That is,we're just one more draw for
people to come in and spend moretime in Owensboro. So, yeah, I

(01:27:39):
think we're, we're doing okay inthat respect.

Yeah. Love it. And then the last question, which is
more about you, which is you'venamed, you know, many female
influences that you've had inyour career, in the bourbon
industry, in the whiskeyindustry, just couple of them,
Andrew Wilson, Lisa wicker, JaneBowie and Alex castle. I've been
fortunate to have three of thosefour on the podcast. So Jane

(01:28:05):
Bowie, watch out going for it.So you know, and all of them
have been tremendous resources,brilliant minds and real
advocates for themselves, forwomen in the industry, and just
great people, and for someonewho didn't originally envision

(01:28:26):
themselves being in theindustry, let alone to the
extent that you were now in theindustry, do you find yourself
thinking, you know, I aspire tobe a model for the next
Generation like these women havebeen for me.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think if
there's something that I canimpart in the industry, that
would be my legacy movingforward. You know, I'm not a
chemist, I'm not a distiller,like those women are. I don't
have the knowledge that theyhave, but I have the passion, I

(01:29:04):
have the love of the history,and I have the ability to be
able to communicate, and if Ican, if I can pass that along to
the next generation, so that wedon't lose the history that
we've already created and thatwe've yet to create. I think
that is what I would like topass on, you know, to to educate

(01:29:30):
people, to help them learn. Youdon't have to drink the spirit
that I talk about, but I wantyou to understand the time, the
effort, the love and just trulyhow many people it does affect.
You know, if we weren't stillmaking bourbon here in Western
Kentucky, we wouldn't be able tobuy a million bushels of corn

(01:29:53):
from all the farmers that are inthis area, you know, and that's
just our distillery here. That'snot to say. About the other
hundreds of distilleries thatare throughout Kentucky. So we
still do have a major impact inthe industry, and I think that's
the legacy that I want to leave,is to impart that passion and
help people understand why it'sso important.

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Ep. 215: Green River Distillery with Caryn Wells

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