July 9, 2025 • 47 mins
The dialogue presented in this episode highlights the insidious nature of redemptive and unity language as mechanisms that have historically served to silence women's voices within the Church. In our conversation with esteemed historian Dr. Beth Allison Barr, we delve into the implications of such language, particularly within the context of complementarianism, which posits that women and men have distinct, non-overlapping roles in the faith community. Dr. Barr, an accomplished scholar and author, elucidates how theological constructs have evolved over time, often to the detriment of women's participation in ecclesiastical leadership. We explore the historical narrative surrounding the ordination of women, emphasizing pivotal moments that have contributed to the current state of affairs. This episode ultimately calls for a reevaluation of how we engage with notions of unity and redemption, urging a more inclusive dialogue that honors the contributions and voices of women in the Church.
The dialogue between Joshua Noel, TJ Blackwell, and esteemed historian Beth Allison Barr offers a profound exploration of the intricate relationship between redemptive language and the silencing of women's voices within the Church. Dr. Barr, an accomplished scholar and author, brings her expertise to bear on the historical context of women's roles in ecclesiastical settings, particularly within the Southern Baptist Convention. The episode delves into the historical evolution of women's ordination and the theological ramifications of complementarianism versus egalitarianism. Barr elucidates how the historical constructs of authority and leadership in the Church have often marginalized female voices, framing their experiences through a lens of subjugation rather than empowerment. This nuanced discussion invites listeners to reconsider the implications of church language and the societal structures that uphold patriarchal norms, ultimately advocating for a more inclusive and redemptive understanding of unity in Christ that honors diversity rather than suppresses it.
A profound examination of the dynamics of power and language within the Church unfolds in this episode of The Whole Church Podcast, where Joshua Noel and TJ Blackwell converse with the esteemed Beth Allison Barr. The discussion navigates the historical landscape of women's ordination and the theological underpinnings of complementarianism, elucidating how redemptive language has frequently been weaponized to maintain silence around women's voices and experiences. Dr. Barr's insights reveal the historical continuity of women's subjugation within ecclesiastical structures, prompting listeners to engage in deeper reflection on the implications of such teachings in contemporary faith communities. The episode challenges the audience to consider the transformative potential of reclaiming unity language as a means of fostering inclusivity and acknowledging the diverse contributions of women to the Church's mission.
Takeaways:
- The conversation highlights how redemptive language in the Church has often been manipulated to silence women, overshadowing their contributions and voices.
- Beth Allison Barr elucidates the historical context of women's roles in the Church, revealing shifts towards complementarianism that have marginalized their participation.
- The discussion emphasizes the necessity of distinguishing between unity and uniformity, particularly in contexts where women's voices are suppressed.
- Barr's insights indicate that the evolution of ordination practices has systematically excluded women from leadership roles, reflecting broader societal attitudes.
- The episode critiques the Southern Baptist Convention's stance on gender roles, arguing for a reevaluation of how women are treated within church structures.
- Listeners are encouraged to engage with diverse church experiences to foster understanding and...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:21):
Foreign.
Galatians 3:24 29 in theChristian Standard Bible say the
law then was our guardianuntil Christ, so that we could be
justified by faith.
But since that faith has come,we are no longer under a guardian.
For through faith you are allsons of God in Christ Jesus.
(00:43):
For those of you who arebaptized into Christ have been clothed
with Christ.
There is no Jew or Greek,slave or free, male and female, since
you all are one in ChristJesus and if you belong to Christ,
then you are Abraham's seedheirs according to the promise.
Just before this pricope ofScripture, St. Paul was discussing
(01:04):
the role of the law beforeChrist and after, he will go on to
discuss the choice we have forfreedom in Christ as opposed to the
oppression that the law offers us.
Beth Alison Barr how do youthink the statement about unity and
diversity in this text playsinto this larger conversation about
freedom and the law?
I think it is such a beautiful verse.
(01:25):
I loved listening to you readit there.
And I think if we actuallyfully understood what that passage
means, that under Christ thatall of us, even people from diverse
backgrounds and even differingviewpoints, etc.
That we are united through ourbelief in Christ and that really
(01:46):
should bring us and calls us,I think, back to unity.
Yeah.
Amen.
So why I love that verse so much.
Hey guys, welcome to the WholeChurch podcast.
Possibly your favorite churchunity podcast.
Possibly not.
(02:06):
Which is fine.
We don't hold grudges.
We don't have any expectationsfor you guys.
It's fine.
I am really excited fortoday's episode.
I'm Joshua Noel.
You guys only care about thatbecause you know I'm gonna introduce
some really cool people today.
Of course, as always, we havethe reason for podcast the one and
only my co host, TJ Tubby,years one Blackwell.
How's it going tj?
Good, but not, as always, special.
(02:27):
We have a very special guest today.
I'm really excited.
One of my favorite authorsspeakers I guess technically podcasters
now, Dr. Beth Allison Barr.
She is an American historianwho is currently the James Vardaman
Endowed professor of Historyat Baylor University in Waco, Texas.
Her specialties includeEuropean women, medieval and early
(02:48):
Modern England, and church history.
She is the author of theMaking of Biblical Womanhood, how
the Subjugation of WomenBecame Gospel Truth and more recently
becoming the Pastor's HowMarriage Replaced Ordination as a
Woman's Path to Ministry.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Welcome to the podcast.
Oh, I'm so glad.
Thank you for asking me.
Yep, anything.
Anything for the Beth Allison Bar.
(03:10):
If you're listening already.
Then you should probably checkout the Onzale podcast network versus
other shows like our showsthat, you know aren't like.
Our shows that we just like tolike and like to be affiliated with.
And, you know, if you'relistening, go ahead and leave a review.
Leave a rating.
It helps us a lot.
It's free.
It's simple.
You can do it while you're listening.
Unless you're driving.
(03:30):
Please do not drive recklessly.
We do not condone texting and driving.
Yeah.
Whole church except for, youknow, no unity with people who drive
reckless.
That's.
That's no unity with reckless drivers.
Yeah.
But of course, we do have oneother thing we like to do when we
start our podcast off.
It's a holy sacrament aroundhere of silliness, because you can't
(03:54):
be divided when you're being a silly.
As I like to be, which isquite silly at times.
Today is a very special onebecause I happen to find out that
one of my favorite authorsalso likes Doctor who.
So I got to have a fun Doctorwho question and TJ Gets to suffer.
Which medieval church figurewould you most like to see the doctor
from Doctor who interact withand TJ And I'll go first.
(04:17):
Give you time to think about it.
I'm let TJ Go first because myanswer might depend on his answer.
Thomas Iguanas.
Mm.
My answer did depend on youranswer because that's what I would
have said.
Why Thomas Aquinas?
I would like to see the Doctornot like Thomas Aquinas.
Yeah, me too.
Yeah.
And to put it in gentle terms.
(04:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Logic versus Thomas Aquinas bea fun episode.
It would.
From that perspective.
I would like to see one withThomas Aquinas.
When you first said that, Iwas like, no.
Hey, we have a medieval expertwho agrees with us about Thomas Aquinas.
Take that.
Will me to tell you aboutThomas Aquinas?
Yeah.
(04:59):
No, Yeah.
I can say a lot of thingsabout Thomas.
We might have to do.
Do a bonus.
A slam episode.
Yeah.
Since you said Thomas Aquinas,I'm going to steal from.
From later in our outline.
This is like a tease.
St. Margaret of Antioch.
And I think.
I think when Dr. Barr tells uslater about her, you guys will be
(05:22):
like, oh, no, it totallychecks out.
Why Josh wants to see that.
Y' all will understand.
Yes.
Yeah.
Beth Elson Barr.
Who are.
Who are we going with here?
I like, you know, so there'sso many possibilities here.
I think it would be really funto see him, like, show up at Julian
of Norwich's Anchorage.
That would be really fun.
And, like, people not know whoit is and him maybe get advice from
(05:44):
her or something.
I think that could be really cool.
I think it'd be really fun towatch him wander around Ireland and
maybe run into Bridget ofKildare or.
Well, then run into Saint Winifred.
I think running into some of those.
Or even around Paris, he couldrun into St. Genevieve, any of those
kind of roaming, preaching,female saints, bishops in the early
(06:07):
medieval world.
I think that could have areally fun episode.
Yeah, I know.
I. Yeah.
One of my favorite 4th Dr. TomBakers, when he.
They went to Paris, it wasgreat episode.
And also, I just like seeingIreland on tv, so that would be cool,
too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ireland's just pretty.
Yeah.
And.
And Wells, too.
Wells is gorgeous on tv.
(06:28):
So true.
Yeah.
Only on tv.
No.
Los Angeles actually is onlypretty on tv, though.
Like, I went in person and Iwas so let down.
I was like, man, way prettieron tv.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I went in, like, August.
Everything's, like, dead.
Everything's dead.
Yeah.
Depressing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I. I can't.
(06:49):
I'm not going to Californiawhen it's hot.
It wasn't hot.
I'll go in December when it'sless hot.
Well, it might have been hotto you.
It wasn't hot to me.
I was still wearing a coat andit was August.
Yeah.
And, well, with the fires, it's.
Because it's so dry, too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So to continue to the realepisode, for context, this episode
(07:13):
is about complementarianism,and that is the teaching that women
were created to complement menas equals with different roles, where
women are never called to leadership.
Egalitarianism refers to thebelief that men and women are equal
with equal ability to possessthe same roles as.
And women are just as likelyto be leaders as men.
The sbc, which is the SouthernBaptist Convention, which is technically
(07:38):
not a denomination, butfunctionally it is, is a collection
of churches associated withone another through convention while
maintaining church autonomy.
They're the biggest Protestantgroup in the United States.
If you know Baptists, they'reprobably sbc.
Statistically.
Yeah.
For anyone who may be unawareof your legacy, our audience is extremely
(08:01):
diverse.
There are some SBC leaders anda lot of much more progressive Christians.
Dr. Park, could you give usyour background on your history with
the church and the faithcommunity that you're a part of now?
Yeah.
So I did grow up mostlySouthern Baptist when I.
My parents were.
(08:21):
My mom was Baptist, my dad was Methodist.
But when they got married, wewere in a small town in Texas and
we went to the Baptist church there.
So it was Southern Baptistbecause it was more rural Texas.
And I married a SouthernBaptist minister.
He went to a Southern Baptistseminary and we were mostly Southern
(08:43):
Baptist until we actuallymoved back to.
To Waco, and we were in a nondenominational church for a while.
And now we are back in aBaptist church, but it is not a Southern
Baptist church.
We are in a Texas BaptistBaptist General Convention of Texas
Church, so.
So.
And I still teach Sundayschool in that church, so.
(09:05):
Nice, nice.
Yeah, I. I do.
Like, I don't know if you guyshave ever heard the.
Or seen the skit where it'slike, oh, you're part of the church.
What church?
And then it's like, oh, convention.
It's a million different things.
That's the Baptist.
That's about the Baptist.
Narrower and narrower and narrower.
Yeah.
Oh, convention 1812 orconvention of 19.
Yeah, that's hilarious.
(09:26):
I wish I could remember thatin full.
I just.
It's not possible for me.
No, but it's a funny one.
It's like my favorite comicbook jokes when people say, I love
America, and they're like, oh,yeah, God bless the usa.
And you're like, no, Chavez.
What are you talking about?
America Chavez.
Yeah.
Geez.
But I mean, yeah, I'm getting sidetracked.
(09:48):
I'm sorry, guys.
No, it's okay.
So in your most recent book,Becoming the Pastor's Wife.
Phenomenal book, by the way.
Everyone needs to pick it up.
Anyway, that's just my quick plug.
You describe how women'sordination has changed from a time
where women held the sameoffices in the church as men to,
like, currently, where in manycomplementarian churches like the
(10:10):
sbc, the woman's role isdefined by her relationship to a
man for the most part.
Right?
Yeah.
Two of the most interestingturning points you discuss are, like,
when the church becomes moresacramentally focused during, like,
the medieval times, and thenalso when pastors began to marry
during the Protestant Reformation.
Could you explain maybe someof the significance of those two
events to, like, how we got towhere we are now?
(10:31):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
So, you know, I find that manypeople in the modern church have
a very sort of monolithic viewof the church, really up until the
very recent past.
And one of the things theyview very monolithically is ideas
about ordination.
And they often believe thatordination has been pretty much unchanged
(10:55):
from the beginning and that ithas always been associated with things
like the sacrament at the altar.
And that only ordained peopleare the ones who are able to perform
the sacrament at the altar.
And while.
And what I always like to tellpeople is that everything has a history.
And even this definition ofordination, and especially it's tying
(11:16):
to this exclusive tying to anordained person, mostly an ordained
priest, or what we wouldconsider now to be an ordained pastor,
more so can officiate at the altar.
And when this came about, youknow, was in the Western church is
around the central MiddleAges, between the year 1000 and 1300,
(11:42):
a lot of sacramental ideasbegin to be ironed out within the
church as well as you know,it's in 1215 that we have a big council
called Fourth Lateran Council.
And that is the very firsttime that it says in Western church
history that only an ordainedpriest can perform the sacrament
at the altar.
And there has been a whole lotof Christianity before 1215.
(12:07):
And I think that's alwayssomething that comes as a surprise
to people.
And as this idea, thisidentification of the sacramental
roles of the priest were wasbecoming more defined, one of the
things that they began toargue was that a priest could only
be a celibate man.
And again is something that is new.
(12:30):
Most priests throughout mostof the Christian world were married.
They were like any other people.
And so this move, unless theywere monastics.
From the beginning, we havehad this strain of celibacy within
monasticism.
But monastics were notidentical with priests.
They were not the same thing.
And so this is where we seethis monastic ideal begins to graft
(12:53):
onto all orders of ordinationthat celibacy is important for those
who are going to perform thesacrament at the altar.
And this is at this time iswhen we begin to see women clearly
written out of ordination orsort of, or being able to be a priest
(13:14):
or being able to perform atthe altar completely.
And so, yeah, it's an evolution.
Quick question before we getto the Prospero information stuff.
I think it was you I read thisfrom that wasn't some of this also
tied to the fact that like alot of times the church was basically
being passed down to pastors, kids.
So they were trying to put astop to that too.
(13:34):
Yeah, yeah.
There's lots of factors behind this.
And what we have between theyear 1000 and 1300 is we see a series
of reforms in the church.
And a big impetus behind thisreform was to get the church wrested
from lay control, from thecontrol of ordinary people.
So they didn't want kings andaristocrats to be be able to control
(13:57):
who was running the churchesand who was performing the sacraments
and all of that sort of thing.
And so one of the reasons, oneof the ways they could do that, if
they enforce celibacy, thenthat means that the selection of
priests now comes through theclergy instead of through, you know,
through family networks.
(14:17):
And so it was definitely partof that.
Was part of this.
Yeah, yeah.
Which isn't a terrible motivecompared to some of what we see now.
No, it's not.
That part of it is very reasonable.
I think the part that comeswith it, though, is this fear of
women's bodies.
If we're trying to keeppriests from having children, then
(14:38):
that means that we've got toseparate priests from women.
Women are dangerous.
Women can't even come near thealtar because women are too dangerous.
And so that thread gets betterpulled into it, and that's when we
begin to see this very clearseparation of women from the sacramental
or most sacramental orders.
Although women continue to beordained throughout the medieval
period.
(15:00):
And then the ProtestantReformation, I know, like, priest
started to marry again, almostlike part of the reform again.
You're not a terrible motivation.
You kind of describe that aslike a large part of how we get to
the pastor's wife now, too, right?
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
No, I love.
Actually, I loved learningabout the beginning of the pastor's
wife role with the Reformationbecause I found out, you know, this
(15:23):
is something I hadn't reallythought about before, that pastor's
wives, those very earlypastors, wives, were symbols of resistance.
The way that you knew a pastorwas separating itself from Catholic
and becoming Protestant, or asthey called it at the time, evangelical.
But it's a differentevangelical than what we have today.
(15:44):
But the way you knew yourpastor was evangelical or that.
That some people wereevangelical was if they were married,
if their pastor was married.
And so literally, women becamesymbols of the Protestant resistance,
and it was dangerous for themto get married.
A lot of them actually gotkilled for it.
They were martyred for it.
(16:04):
And so this was, you know,this is women very much as heroes
here.
But at the same time, what wesee happening is that for the very
first time in Christianhistory, ministry becomes identified
by marriage.
And marriage becomes.
To be a minister means to be married.
(16:27):
And this is the first timethat has happened.
Yeah.
So check out my hot wife.
Used to be like a great battle cry.
Like, look at us.
We're resisting the church.
Yeah.
Catholic hierarchy.
And now it's just cringe, please.
Now it's, yeah, everybody,please stop doing.
Yeah, it's you know, I mean,it just shows how much of what we
(16:48):
take as ordinary andtraditional practices are just born
in.
In historic changes and over time.
And so this is ourunderstanding of ordination.
And who is a minister is notreally dictated by the Bible.
It is dictated by ourhistorical circumstances.
(17:12):
All right, so before we getinto the meat of the episode, we
are going to do what we callthe speed round.
Sort of.
Normally it's a lot morepersonal, but we're doing a special
one just for Dr. Beth Alison Barr.
Did people used to call you Babs?
Is that a thing?
So some people.
It's not part of the speed round.
People don't call me that.
I mean, I use that asinitials, like, for things.
(17:35):
Just DC Comic fans, I think.
Call me that.
It's okay.
All right.
I just thought of it.
I don't know.
Maybe I'm just as bad as Josh.
So we're going to go throughthe following list of names of women
from the Bible and churchhistory to see if you can tell us
a little bit about each ofthem in a single sentence.
One sentence.
So are you ready?
(17:57):
I'll ready as I can be.
All right, so we're going tostart with Hagar.
Okay.
Hagar is the first person toname God in the Bible.
She names him the God who.
And she is the enslaved womanwho is raped by Abram.
All right.
Deborah.
Deborah is the judge in theOld Testament, the female judge in
the Old Testament, who also isa seated judge.
(18:18):
She's the only other seatedjudge alongside Moses in the Old
Testament.
Mary Magdalene.
Oh, Mary Magdalene.
Mary Magdalene is one of theclose followers of Jesus, and she
is the first one who seesJesus at the resurrection and who
he entrusts in carrying themessage of the Gospel.
All right, Junia.
(18:38):
Junia is the.
Is a female apostle who'snamed in Acts that the.
I'm sorry.
In Romans 16.
Right.
Phoebe.
Phoebe is a deacon.
She is also named in Romans 6,in Romans 16.
Theodora.
Oh, go ahead.
Oh, Theodora.
Which Theodora?
Theodora the wife of Justinian.
(18:58):
Yes, Theodora, the wife of Justinian.
She was the wife of Justinian,the emperor of Constantinople in
the East.
She is also very associatedwith reforms for women as well as
in helping to push reforms forthe church.
All right.
Julia of Norwich.
Oh, she was an anchoress, amystic and ordained woman in the
(19:22):
late 14th century.
And she had a conversationwith another of my favorite mystics,
Marjorie kemp.
All right.
St. Margaret of Antioch.
Oh, St. Margaret of Antioch isan early Christian martyr who slayed
A dragon.
Super cool.
Katharina Luther.
Katherine Luther.
Luther she was.
Or Katie Luther.
She was the wife of MartinLuther, who we know a whole lot about.
(19:45):
People try to make her thequintessential pastor's wife, but
I don't think modern pastorswives would recognize what she did
today.
Dorothy Patterson is the wifeof Paige.
Patterson, who was one of thearchitects of the Southern Baptist
Convention.
And she also is the architect,in many ways, of the biblical womanhood
(20:05):
movement.
All right.
And Kathy Hoppe.
Hoppy.
Kathy Hoppy.
Kathy Hoppe is one of thewomen that I talk about in becoming
the pastor's wife, who as wellas in our podcast, all the Buried
Women.
And she was a woman ordainedby the Southern Baptist convention
in 1982, who they then kickedout of a church because she was ordained.
(20:28):
Interesting.
What a detailed history youmentioned earlier.
I'm gonna do a quickderailment and TJ will fix it.
I believe in him.
Or maybe I'll fix it.
We'll see you.
In general, how a lot ofpeople kind of misconstrue or even
misstate that ordination hasalways been just men.
(20:48):
Specifically, in your book,you mentioned Al Mohler making a
statement about this, whichwas great for me because we talk
about church unity.
I always try to show grace to everybody.
And I feel like my twoexceptions really are just Al Mohler
and Thomas Aquinas, becauseI'm just like, I just can't find
it.
I can't find the good there.
But.
(21:09):
Can you talk some about, like,what he said and why do you think
he just doesn't know thehistory, or is he, like, blatantly
ignoring it?
So Al Muller is one of thepeople that I struggle with showing
Christian grace to as well.
And I think it's because Ithink he knows it.
I don't know how he couldn'tknow it.
We know he knew it at onepoint because he supported women
in ministry at one point.
(21:31):
And so I think he knows, butis become so convinced, mesmerized
by his own interpretation,that he now.
I mean, essentially he's.
It's gaslighting.
This is like gaslighting atits most in a.
In a very large arena, as heis convicting, you know, 12 million
(21:57):
Southern Baptists that womenhave never served in pastoral roles
throughout all of history.
Yeah, yeah.
A lot of times when I have totalk about logical fallacies, I pull
up his podcast and, like,listen to one.
I'm like, here's a few examples.
I think he intentionally ismanipulative with how he Words, things.
And this is why I have a hardtime showing no grace, because I'm
like, I know as someone who'sover a university, you know better
(22:18):
than to straw me and otherpeople's argument to do this, like,
argument from authority, likeall the stuff that he does all the
time.
And I'm like, yeah, he.
I'm convinced he knows better.
This is a terrible segment fora church unity podcast.
But, you know, I mean, I thinkfor church unity, though, we've got
to call out people who are intentionally.
I mean, this sort of.
(22:39):
He has intentionally createddivision for somebody who claims
to not.
He has intentionally created division.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Sorry, I meant to say thatearlier and I was just like, I just
needed to pick your brainwhile you were here.
And I was like, I'm just goingto derail us.
It's fine.
But no, in your book, gettingback to some of the unity stuff,
the reason we do the show, Iguess one thing you write a lot about
(23:01):
is how redemptive language isused to allow men to.
Who have been found guilty ofsexual sins, even assault, a lot
of the times to keep workingin the church, while women are often.
Who were victimized, are oftentold to be quiet for the sake of
the church's reputation.
And we know Deidre and I alsoknow the language of unity.
(23:22):
It's been used reallyfrequently to silence voices who
try to speak out againstwrongdoings in the church.
You know, that's why we talk alot about how unity and uniformity
not the same thing.
Yes.
Do you think there's a waythat we can keep redemptive language
and language of unity frombeing co opted from those who hide
behind words like this, likeAl Mohler.
There we go.
I found a way to tie it in.
Yeah.
(23:42):
Yeah.
I think.
Well, I think we need to startbeing intentional about how we use
that.
We need to reclaim thatlanguage and order for somebody,
you know, because I do believethat people can be redeemed.
I wish people had intervenedwith a lot of these abusers much
earlier in their lives becausemaybe it could have helped them to
(24:03):
stop, to change their behaviorearly on.
And so I think we've got tobe, you know, in order to be redemptive,
we need to be transparentabout what they did.
And so part of our saying,yes, we are, we are praying for redemption
here.
This is our brother or sisterin Christ.
We want them to come back.
(24:24):
And therefore this is what happens.
And this is what the crime,you know, this is what they have
been alleged with doing Theseare credible allegations.
They have apologized for it,and we're going to put that out publicly
because people need to knowthis and because in order for this
person to really be redeemed,they also need to be held accountable
(24:45):
for it.
I think by.
By just bringing in thattransparency, we can still use that
language and reclaim it, whoare really bringing restoration.
Yeah, it's difficult.
It is.
I want to be cautious here.
I don't want to use any namesbecause I don't want to get in legal
trouble.
And I know you have plenty ofgood examples yourself, but one example
(25:07):
I go to that's been reallypoignant for me.
And when I talk to people,they seem to understand this one
a little bit better.
I know a church where one ofthe guys working in their youth has
gone to court, lied, and hadother people lie about what he did
with a young woman that, youknow, he kind of helped be one of
her pastors.
A little bit of, kind ofgrooming situation.
Knowing the details, I don'tthink it's as bad as it sounds.
(25:30):
What really makes me the mostangry, though, the church doesn't
tell anyone.
And to me, even as someonewho's not a parent, I'm like, imagine,
you know, that lack of transparency.
Your kid is in this youthgroup, and you don't know that because
the church felt like youdidn't need to know.
Yeah, that I don't know.
That's the kind of stuff thatI'm like, yeah, church unity.
But are we really being thechurch at this point?
(25:52):
You know?
Right, Absolutely.
And I think that, you know, Ithink we've hidden behind things
like gossip.
We say this is gossip.
You know, gossip is sayingsomething that's not true about person
intentionally to slander themor spreading things.
It's not, you know, sayingsomething that's true in order to
protect people.
That's not gossip.
(26:13):
And we have.
We have reframed somethingthat is good.
I mean, you know, Jesus didn'ttell us to keep secrets, you know,
and been told over and overagain that when things are in the
dark, you know, that.
That we are to bring light to darkness.
And that that's what thegospel does, is it brings light to
darkness.
(26:33):
And so I'm not sure whychurches keep hiding these things
in the dark.
They certainly don't help anything.
And, you know, and really,once they come out, they'll tear
churches apart.
And you've allowed those Abusto harm even more people.
Yeah.
And even when the.
The gossiper, you know, isproven correct, they switch and start
(26:54):
calling them a whistleblower.
There's still the negative connotations.
Yeah, it is.
It does.
We, people who tell the truthare not looked upon kindly.
I mean, without sayingspecific names.
The Southern BaptistConvention is a really good example
of this.
We can see how the survivorswho have come forward with very credible
allegations, many of which arebacked up by documentation, and yet
(27:19):
they have still been treatedas pariahs and called, you know,
the women called things like whores.
And it's just.
It's just horrific the waythat those survivors have been treated.
And even with these credible allegations.
And I think that says something.
You know, we are more quick toprotect the pastors than we are to
(27:45):
protect the potential victims.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's.
It's like.
I know just a few otherexamples I know we use.
A lot of times they'll say,and this isn't even outside of the
church.
You know, people say, oh,you're just being dramatic when someone's
literally just saying what happened.
And it's just like we usedifferent words to just kind of try
to belittle when someone tellsthe truth.
(28:06):
That happens a lot.
Another one, church specific.
I don't know if you've everheard people avoid the very appearance
of evil and it getsmistranslated and applied in weird
ways.
I'm like, that's just not whatthat's about.
Meanwhile, we ignore stufflike Ephesians where it's confess
your sins to one another.
Right?
Yeah.
(28:27):
I think people are worriedabout the shame that comes and.
Which is partly because ofwhat, you know, the way that we have
made sexual sin or things thatwe deem a sexual sin, we've sort
of put them beyond the pill,put them out of the church and said
that, you know, these arelike, the worst things that can happen.
(28:49):
Anybody who's out here, it'slike the worst things that can happen.
And so then it makes us morelikely to cover those up and to try
to.
Anyway, it's just.
I think we have created moreproblems for the church than we have
solved.
Yep.
So you speak a lot about howcomplementarian ideas can be harmful
(29:10):
and how the SBC has harmedmany women through both inaction
and action.
How do you think the rest ofthe church should interact with these
groups?
Should we refuse toparticipate in their service?
Should we not go to their events?
Nail 99 PCs to their door?
What do we do?
That is such a good question.
And it's one that, you know,people ask me all the time there,
(29:34):
and it's one that I've alsohad to grapple with.
And I think I kind of have tworesponses to it.
On the one hand, if we dobelieve, you know the verse you read
at the beginning, if webelieve in Jesus Christ, then we
are all one in Christ.
And so they are our brothersand sisters in Christ.
Even if we disagree on anissue that I would say is very harmful.
(29:58):
Women and to men also.
But I.
So, but yet even with mestrongly disagreeing on that, they
are still my brothers andsisters in Christ.
And so I think, yeah, there is still.
And we don't want to push themout where there's not any sort of
communication, because thatdoesn't do any good, because then
(30:21):
we're not able to have anysort of good influence whatsoever.
And so really what we need tobe able to do is to communicate well.
Yet at the same time, I thinkthere are certain places, certain
people, certain churches thathave proved themselves so untrustworthy
(30:43):
and so damaging and sodangerous that we can still say,
hey, if you believe in Jesus,you're still my brother and sister
in Christ, but we're not goingto have anything to do with you right
now because of what you havedone is so dangerous.
And the theology you'reespousing is so dangerous that we're
just gonna have to make a statement.
And if you want to come backto us, you can come, but we can't
(31:07):
keep coming to you.
And so I think.
I think there's nuance.
I'll use a good holy post word.
Yeah, I think there's nuancein this.
It's neither one way or theother way.
But I think it is important toremember that even people we disagree
with are still created in theimage of God.
And that people who claimChrist, it's not for us to say that
(31:29):
they're not real Christians.
That's not our business.
That's not our thing to do.
Our thing is to love them andshow them how and show them the qualities
of Christ through the way weinteract with them.
Yeah.
And it is challenging.
I'll just speak for myself andjust kind of get your thought on
(31:51):
this.
We do another podcast,Systematic Ecology, and one of the
other hosts on that show isSouthern Baptist, a good friend of
ours.
We have professors who come onthis show occasionally who I went
to school with them, who areSouthern Baptists, who.
I really respect them.
And I don't know.
For me, it's a weird spotwhere I'm like, I love working with
them on certain projects whereI feel more in control, just to be
(32:13):
honest.
And I love talking to them.
They're good people, from whatI know, and I think they really do
love God and Christ.
Yet at the same time, I thinkif one of them were to ask me to
speak at one of their churchesor to, you know, endorse something
specifically, I'm like, Idon't know, like, I could endorse
something maybe that you wrotespecifically, but something that
was written through, you know,SBC Publishing company or something.
(32:36):
Maybe not, you know, and that's.
That's where I finddifficulty, because I do know there
are good people, even in thesbc, who I think genuinely love God,
and I just disagree with them.
That's exactly right.
There are a lot of good peoplein the sbc.
They have been.
The reason they believe thesethings is because they have been
taught to believe thesethings, and they have been taught
that this is the best way tomove forward and that this is the
(32:58):
most biblical understanding.
And so the way to counter thatis to help them unpack what they
have been taught, which meanswe have to be in conversation with
them and we want.
You know, frankly, it would begreat if the SBC publishing house
would actually publish morediverse voices.
(33:20):
It just doesn't, which is oneof the problems with it.
But if it did publish morediverse voices, I think that would
go a long way in helping theSBC to become more.
More Big tent Christian if ourbig tent Baptist, if I can use that
phrase.
(33:41):
So I.
But it.
But it is hard, I think.
You know, I always tell peopleit comes down to your own personal
comfort, what you feel isright or wrong on that issue.
And if you are veryuncomfortable going into a situation
or working with a certainpeople, then just.
Then just don't do it.
And, you know, I mean, I'vestruggled with that.
(34:01):
So, too, with someinvitations, I've gotten to do certain
things.
And it's.
It's.
Sometimes it's a quandary.
Yeah.
Yeah.
A lot of prayer and discernment.
Yes.
Which.
Yeah, sounds like verySouthern Baptist language sometimes.
But it's fine.
That stuff.
I still believe.
Yes.
No, I think so, too.
I think it does.
It does require prayer,discernment, and really listening
(34:22):
to God about.
About what?
You know, Is it helpful towalk into this area where people
who might not otherwise hearyour voice might hear you.
That, you know, that would bea good thing.
And the challenging thing isto realize a lot of them are probably
asking the same thing whenthey come on my show and do stuff
(34:43):
with me.
So I'm like, You know, there'sa little bit of.
Both of us are like, is itworth it?
That's exactly right.
Yeah.
You know, if it's for unity,then we do have to have some of that.
Stepping across the lines.
Yep.
Yes.
So you get interviewed prettyfrequently on podcasts and videos
and episodes and stuff.
You know, all kinds of stuff.
(35:03):
Super famous.
So are there any questionsthat you don't get asked very often
that you wish you were askedabout more often?
Oh, gosh.
You know, I don't people,because I think people are much more
attuned to recent history.
I get asked a lot more aboutthe recent history in my books, which,
(35:24):
you know, is totally fair.
And especially like thepastor's wife.
I cover such a huge swath ofhistory and it, you know, so.
But sometimes I miss gettingto talk about some of those medieval
figures, some of those earlychurch figures or things that are
really in my wheelhouse,research wise.
(35:46):
But anyway.
But I also totally understandit because I'm the medievalist who
started talking aboutcomplementarianism and Baptist.
So, you know, that's my fault too.
Can you read like 150 books onpastors wives for your most recent
project?
Yeah, it's crazy.
That's so mad.
Most of them are a centuryfrom, you know, the early 20th century
to the early 21st century, so.
(36:08):
Yeah, so they're very recent.
Yeah.
So.
So do you have a favoritemedieval church woman?
Oh, absolutely.
Marjorie Kemp.
Hands down.
Hands down.
Although St Winifred is aclose second.
Probably Margaret Beaufort,who was Henry the seventh mom.
She was the beginning of theTudor dynasty.
She's one of my favoritechurch women.
(36:29):
She was also very fond ofSaint Winifred.
So there.
There's a lot.
There's a lot of.
A lot of women in the medievalworld that I could talk about.
In fact, that's my next book.
That I'm excited for.
I love, because, I don't know,it's like, it's hard to find medieval
church stuff that's writtenwell, that's what I'm gonna say,
(36:51):
because.
No, totally.
And that's accessible.
And that is.
That is accessible.
That is still academically sound.
That is still.
And that is appealing.
It's.
It's challenging.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a way better questionthan I was going to ask.
I was going to ask who yourfavorite modern fantasy writer is.
(37:13):
That's.
Oh, that's actually a goodquestion, too.
So modern fantasy writer, youjust say Patrick Rothfuss.
I do like Patrick Rothfuss.
He's on myself here behind me.
I'm very afraid of his thirdbook, though, because right now.
Well, the first book wasreally good.
In the Name of the Name of the Wind.
(37:34):
The second book was.
It wasn't quite.
I don't know.
I was really.
Yeah.
And so I'm a little wonderingabout the third book.
I'm not sure.
Have you read the short.
The novella?
Yep.
Absolutely.
And I really like that.
It's so good.
They were.
They were the books I had onyour bookshelf for a long time, Josh.
Yeah, on the bookshelf righthere behind me.
(37:58):
So I also.
Yeah, no, I do a lot.
I do a lot of detectivefiction, fantasy, sci fi.
So, anyway, speaking ofdetective, I think.
The weirdest thing I've beenreading lately, Kamagua Food Detectives.
I finished the first book.
It took me forever to realizethat there's two more.
It was like a Japanese bestseller.
It was translated to English.
I found it in Colorado.
(38:21):
I have a really weird tendencywhere I like to go into local bookstores
and just ask whoever's workingthere what I should read, and then
I just read whatever they say.
That's a great idea.
Yeah.
No, man.
And I really appreciate.
Because, you know, you'retalking about the medieval stuff.
I just really appreciate howyou really are one of the few people
who's really great at, like,staying academic and still, like,
(38:42):
I can read this and feel likeI know what's happening.
So I'm really excited for thatnext book.
Yeah, I'm glad.
Yeah.
But so one other thing we dofor everyone, every guest we have
on, we like to ask forpractical action.
So something that would helpbetter engender church unity today.
(39:03):
What do you think?
Something that our listenerscould stop and go do right now to
help with Christian unity.
Yeah.
So one of the best things thatmy family did when we were sort of
in between churches is that wewent and visited a lot of churches
that we would never considerattending just to see how they did
things, just to talk withpeople who were there.
And it was a really good thingfor my soul because it helped me
(39:26):
see how big the Christianworld is, how diverse Christian practices
are, and that even people thatI would not want to worship in the
style that they do, that theyare still part of the body of Christ.
And I.
You know, I think a lot of theproblem we've had is we've become
so siloed, and we only knowone type of church experience, and
(39:48):
the Christian world is muchdeeper and broader than that.
And I think if we would justlook a little Bigger than ourselves.
We would be much quicker toreach out to people instead of closing
them off.
What do you think the worldwould look like if we all just start
(40:08):
doing that?
Wow.
I mean, it would be amazing.
I think.
I think it would certainlybroaden our understanding of who
God is and what church is.
It would be break down misconceptions.
You know, a lot of the thingswe read about other churches, a lot
of them just aren't true.
And so it's like, well, whydon't you go see?
(40:31):
Why don't you go to thatchurch and go visit it?
Go talk to people?
I mean, some of your fears aregoing to be confirmed.
Like, I remember going to this church.
I'll never forget who had thedrive by communion table, which I
was just like, oh, my gosh.
Theologically, it's like that.
Just really.
But they were still very Christian.
They weren't still Christian.
And so I think it breaks downthose misconceptions.
(40:53):
And also we get to see thepeople who we thought we were so
against.
And even I was at the SouthernBaptist Convention just was that
last week, I think last week.
And as disturbing as a lot ofthe things I heard were, it also
helped me humanize that theseare really people who are seeking
(41:14):
the will of God.
And I think what.
I think what they think is thewill of God has been distorted.
But nonetheless, there are somany of them.
They are really just trying to seek.
The will of God.
And so it helped me tohumanize them.
All right, so before we wrapup, we do like to ask everyone to
share a moment where they sawGod recently.
(41:35):
Whether it be a blessing, achallenge mode of worship, whatever
it may be.
I always make Josh go first,so we have plenty of time to think.
So, Josh, do you have a Godmoment for us this week?
I have plenty.
Finding one is always difficult.
This is the one I'm gonna usethis week.
I'll go with the lamest thingI could think of because it's just
stuck in my brain.
I have a tendency to overblowthings that I have to do in my head
(41:58):
where I'm like, I have 5million things to do.
A lot of the times it's true,sometimes it's not.
This week I was like, oh, man,I have, like, six hours of homework
to do.
So I got on to start myhomework and I was done in like 15
minutes.
I just did not have that much homework.
And then I was like, ah, well,that's all I had planned for the
rest of my day.
My wife was Reading the book.
So I guess we're not watching tv.
I just sat there and playedPlanet Zoo for a while.
(42:19):
Shocking.
And turned the volume off andlistened to outdoors while I was
doing it.
I don't have the correct sizedtable to sit outside and play and
it's too hot to run around outside.
So.
Yeah, I just designed a reallykiller panda exhibit.
And at a nice, refreshingtime, I rested in the Lord while
playing Steam Duck.
(42:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a good moment.
It was great.
Yeah.
So for me, since we've lastrecorded, I have driven to and from
Virginia in the same day tohelp move one of my best friends
back to our city.
And, you know, 615 mileslater, it was worth it.
(43:04):
I would do anything for.
Honestly, most people, I justlike to get the opportunity to be
able to do something like that.
And it feels so good to seethe fruits of your labor come true
because now one of my bestfriends lives not five hours away
anymore.
Yeah, that's great.
Also named Josh, by the way,with the best opinions.
(43:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm gonna cheat because I justremembered the God moment I wanted
to say that I forgot.
Oh, you're gonna do another one?
Yeah, he wants to.
I'm sorry.
This one, though, I think T.J.will appreciate.
I found out that it waspossible for me to request more money
for my school if I was like,hey, I need equipment and I needed
a computer.
So just got approved today, actually.
(43:47):
And I'm gonna get to get a newcomputer and support a good friend
of mine's business who alsosponsors this show.
Check out TJ Tech.
That's what it's called.
It's not what it's called, but yeah.
Yeah.
So that was exciting.
Sweet.
Yeah.
I thought you would like toknow that.
And this was a fun time to say it.
So, yeah, that's prettyexciting for me.
(44:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, Dr. Barr, do you have aGod moment for us?
Oh, gosh, yes.
I try to look, especially asI've gotten older, in stopping and
seeing and looking and seeingwhere God is working.
An easy one for us this weekis that our very tiny, very economically
(44:28):
challenged church has had VBSthis week.
And we had two new familieswho we'd never known before, who
came and brought their.
And brought their kids.
And just my job, I don't teachsmall kids.
My job is I do registration.
And then I walk around with mycamera and my phone and take pictures
of things during.
(44:50):
During the events andlistening to those kids learn about
Jesus and come and show metheir crafts And I just always think
I'm like, you know, God, God,you are here and this is what it's
all about.
And I'm just thankful I cansee that, that I got to see that.
Four nights this week.
(45:10):
Yeah.
Vacation Bible school rocks.
Yeah.
So if you're listening, thankyou so much.
Thank you for your time, Dr. Barr.
And please consider sharingthe episode with a friend.
Share with your enemies.
Share with a cousin,especially cousins.
We can definitely guilt acousin into listening to the show,
and especially cousins.
Sorry, I. Yeah.
(45:31):
If you're looking for a way tosupport the show, you can always
wear the merch.
Today is one of the onlytimes, just in general, that I've
seen Josh without some of it on.
It is really comfy, but it'ssuper comfy.
It looks good, it'sunderstated, and it'll take start
a conversation.
So check it out.
Support us.
Support yourself.
(45:51):
Yeah.
Also, I'm going to breakformat for a second.
Dr. Barr, do you have a coupleminutes after the show to do a bonus
thing for our patrons?
Sure, if you have time.
Sweet.
In that case, also considersupporting us on Patreon.
For a fun bonus question, Iwant to pick Dr. Barr's brain a little
bit more about Thomas Aquinas.
I want to hear more about whywe don't like him.
(46:12):
So if you want just to hear usbash Thomas Aquinas, it'll be on
Patreon.
I might even make it a freeone because I think everyone needs
to hear this.
So don't support us on Patreon.
You're gonna get it for free anyway.
Well, yeah, you could still,like, you could still subscribe.
There's a free tier.
You can subscribe.
So anytime that I'm like,something should be free.
We still get the free stuff,but we also appreciate if you do
(46:33):
like a dollar or two, it's fine.
But other things you should dois check out other shows in the network
on Azale Podcast network,something we're supposed to support
because we're a part of it.
And I think we started it.
We sure did.
Yeah.
Like Brandon Knights, myseminary life.
Great stuff.
You know, we mentioned our SBCfriend, let nothing move you.
That's a Bible podcast.
He does.
(46:53):
If you want.
If you want to hear that takeor if you want here, a more progressive
take on the Bible.
So do both.
This is what I always think isgood to hear both sides.
Check out the Bible afterhours with the foul mouth preacher.
I'm not as progressive as thatside and nowhere near as conservative
as a Christian side.
So if you hear both and youfind the middle, that might be where
I'm at.
Yeah.
All right.
Yeah.
We hope you enjoyed it.
Next week we're going to betalking with Josh Patterson about
(47:15):
some backlash he receivedabout a podcast he shared in a Christian
group and how we hope our owngroups might handle similar situations.
After that, we'll be speakingwith Jonathan Mackin, an Anglican
autism researcher, about hiswork with faith and those on the
spectrum.
They were going to be speakingwith Brian Wrecker about his book
Hell Bent and how doctrinesabout hell may be harmful.
(47:36):
Finally, at the end of seasonone, Francis Chan will be on the
show.
But he doesn't maybe sosomeone does have to tell him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or it will never happen andyou'll have like five more years
of season one.
Yep.
Which, which you will.
Which you will.
Foreign.
Galatians 3:24 29 in theChristian Standard Bible say the
law then was our guardianuntil Christ, so that we could be
justified by faith.
But since that faith has come,we are no longer under a guardian.
For through faith you are allsons of God in Christ Jesus.
(00:43):
For those of you who arebaptized into Christ have been clothed
with Christ.
There is no Jew or Greek,slave or free, male and female, since
you all are one in ChristJesus and if you belong to Christ,
then you are Abraham's seedheirs according to the promise.
Just before this pricope ofScripture, St. Paul was discussing
(01:04):
the role of the law beforeChrist and after, he will go on to
discuss the choice we have forfreedom in Christ as opposed to the
oppression that the law offers us.
Beth Alison Barr how do youthink the statement about unity and
diversity in this text playsinto this larger conversation about
freedom and the law?
I think it is such a beautiful verse.
(01:25):
I loved listening to you readit there.
And I think if we actuallyfully understood what that passage
means, that under Christ thatall of us, even people from diverse
backgrounds and even differingviewpoints, etc.
That we are united through ourbelief in Christ and that really
(01:46):
should bring us and calls us,I think, back to unity.
Yeah.
Amen.
So why I love that verse so much.
Hey guys, welcome to the WholeChurch podcast.
Possibly your favorite churchunity podcast.
Possibly not.
(02:06):
Which is fine.
We don't hold grudges.
We don't have any expectationsfor you guys.
It's fine.
I am really excited fortoday's episode.
I'm Joshua Noel.
You guys only care about thatbecause you know I'm gonna introduce
some really cool people today.
Of course, as always, we havethe reason for podcast the one and
only my co host, TJ Tubby,years one Blackwell.
How's it going tj?
Good, but not, as always, special.
(02:27):
We have a very special guest today.
I'm really excited.
One of my favorite authorsspeakers I guess technically podcasters
now, Dr. Beth Allison Barr.
She is an American historianwho is currently the James Vardaman
Endowed professor of Historyat Baylor University in Waco, Texas.
Her specialties includeEuropean women, medieval and early
(02:48):
Modern England, and church history.
She is the author of theMaking of Biblical Womanhood, how
the Subjugation of WomenBecame Gospel Truth and more recently
becoming the Pastor's HowMarriage Replaced Ordination as a
Woman's Path to Ministry.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Welcome to the podcast.
Oh, I'm so glad.
Thank you for asking me.
Yep, anything.
Anything for the Beth Allison Bar.
(03:10):
If you're listening already.
Then you should probably checkout the Onzale podcast network versus
other shows like our showsthat, you know aren't like.
Our shows that we just like tolike and like to be affiliated with.
And, you know, if you'relistening, go ahead and leave a review.
Leave a rating.
It helps us a lot.
It's free.
It's simple.
You can do it while you're listening.
Unless you're driving.
(03:30):
Please do not drive recklessly.
We do not condone texting and driving.
Yeah.
Whole church except for, youknow, no unity with people who drive
reckless.
That's.
That's no unity with reckless drivers.
Yeah.
But of course, we do have oneother thing we like to do when we
start our podcast off.
It's a holy sacrament aroundhere of silliness, because you can't
(03:54):
be divided when you're being a silly.
As I like to be, which isquite silly at times.
Today is a very special onebecause I happen to find out that
one of my favorite authorsalso likes Doctor who.
So I got to have a fun Doctorwho question and TJ Gets to suffer.
Which medieval church figurewould you most like to see the doctor
from Doctor who interact withand TJ And I'll go first.
(04:17):
Give you time to think about it.
I'm let TJ Go first because myanswer might depend on his answer.
Thomas Iguanas.
Mm.
My answer did depend on youranswer because that's what I would
have said.
Why Thomas Aquinas?
I would like to see the Doctornot like Thomas Aquinas.
Yeah, me too.
Yeah.
And to put it in gentle terms.
(04:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Logic versus Thomas Aquinas bea fun episode.
It would.
From that perspective.
I would like to see one withThomas Aquinas.
When you first said that, Iwas like, no.
Hey, we have a medieval expertwho agrees with us about Thomas Aquinas.
Take that.
Will me to tell you aboutThomas Aquinas?
Yeah.
(04:59):
No, Yeah.
I can say a lot of thingsabout Thomas.
We might have to do.
Do a bonus.
A slam episode.
Yeah.
Since you said Thomas Aquinas,I'm going to steal from.
From later in our outline.
This is like a tease.
St. Margaret of Antioch.
And I think.
I think when Dr. Barr tells uslater about her, you guys will be
(05:22):
like, oh, no, it totallychecks out.
Why Josh wants to see that.
Y' all will understand.
Yes.
Yeah.
Beth Elson Barr.
Who are.
Who are we going with here?
I like, you know, so there'sso many possibilities here.
I think it would be really funto see him, like, show up at Julian
of Norwich's Anchorage.
That would be really fun.
And, like, people not know whoit is and him maybe get advice from
(05:44):
her or something.
I think that could be really cool.
I think it'd be really fun towatch him wander around Ireland and
maybe run into Bridget ofKildare or.
Well, then run into Saint Winifred.
I think running into some of those.
Or even around Paris, he couldrun into St. Genevieve, any of those
kind of roaming, preaching,female saints, bishops in the early
(06:07):
medieval world.
I think that could have areally fun episode.
Yeah, I know.
I. Yeah.
One of my favorite 4th Dr. TomBakers, when he.
They went to Paris, it wasgreat episode.
And also, I just like seeingIreland on tv, so that would be cool,
too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ireland's just pretty.
Yeah.
And.
And Wells, too.
Wells is gorgeous on tv.
(06:28):
So true.
Yeah.
Only on tv.
No.
Los Angeles actually is onlypretty on tv, though.
Like, I went in person and Iwas so let down.
I was like, man, way prettieron tv.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I went in, like, August.
Everything's, like, dead.
Everything's dead.
Yeah.
Depressing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I. I can't.
(06:49):
I'm not going to Californiawhen it's hot.
It wasn't hot.
I'll go in December when it'sless hot.
Well, it might have been hotto you.
It wasn't hot to me.
I was still wearing a coat andit was August.
Yeah.
And, well, with the fires, it's.
Because it's so dry, too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So to continue to the realepisode, for context, this episode
(07:13):
is about complementarianism,and that is the teaching that women
were created to complement menas equals with different roles, where
women are never called to leadership.
Egalitarianism refers to thebelief that men and women are equal
with equal ability to possessthe same roles as.
And women are just as likelyto be leaders as men.
The sbc, which is the SouthernBaptist Convention, which is technically
(07:38):
not a denomination, butfunctionally it is, is a collection
of churches associated withone another through convention while
maintaining church autonomy.
They're the biggest Protestantgroup in the United States.
If you know Baptists, they'reprobably sbc.
Statistically.
Yeah.
For anyone who may be unawareof your legacy, our audience is extremely
(08:01):
diverse.
There are some SBC leaders anda lot of much more progressive Christians.
Dr. Park, could you give usyour background on your history with
the church and the faithcommunity that you're a part of now?
Yeah.
So I did grow up mostlySouthern Baptist when I.
My parents were.
(08:21):
My mom was Baptist, my dad was Methodist.
But when they got married, wewere in a small town in Texas and
we went to the Baptist church there.
So it was Southern Baptistbecause it was more rural Texas.
And I married a SouthernBaptist minister.
He went to a Southern Baptistseminary and we were mostly Southern
(08:43):
Baptist until we actuallymoved back to.
To Waco, and we were in a nondenominational church for a while.
And now we are back in aBaptist church, but it is not a Southern
Baptist church.
We are in a Texas BaptistBaptist General Convention of Texas
Church, so.
So.
And I still teach Sundayschool in that church, so.
(09:05):
Nice, nice.
Yeah, I. I do.
Like, I don't know if you guyshave ever heard the.
Or seen the skit where it'slike, oh, you're part of the church.
What church?
And then it's like, oh, convention.
It's a million different things.
That's the Baptist.
That's about the Baptist.
Narrower and narrower and narrower.
Yeah.
Oh, convention 1812 orconvention of 19.
Yeah, that's hilarious.
(09:26):
I wish I could remember thatin full.
I just.
It's not possible for me.
No, but it's a funny one.
It's like my favorite comicbook jokes when people say, I love
America, and they're like, oh,yeah, God bless the usa.
And you're like, no, Chavez.
What are you talking about?
America Chavez.
Yeah.
Geez.
But I mean, yeah, I'm getting sidetracked.
(09:48):
I'm sorry, guys.
No, it's okay.
So in your most recent book,Becoming the Pastor's Wife.
Phenomenal book, by the way.
Everyone needs to pick it up.
Anyway, that's just my quick plug.
You describe how women'sordination has changed from a time
where women held the sameoffices in the church as men to,
like, currently, where in manycomplementarian churches like the
(10:10):
sbc, the woman's role isdefined by her relationship to a
man for the most part.
Right?
Yeah.
Two of the most interestingturning points you discuss are, like,
when the church becomes moresacramentally focused during, like,
the medieval times, and thenalso when pastors began to marry
during the Protestant Reformation.
Could you explain maybe someof the significance of those two
events to, like, how we got towhere we are now?
(10:31):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
So, you know, I find that manypeople in the modern church have
a very sort of monolithic viewof the church, really up until the
very recent past.
And one of the things theyview very monolithically is ideas
about ordination.
And they often believe thatordination has been pretty much unchanged
(10:55):
from the beginning and that ithas always been associated with things
like the sacrament at the altar.
And that only ordained peopleare the ones who are able to perform
the sacrament at the altar.
And while.
And what I always like to tellpeople is that everything has a history.
And even this definition ofordination, and especially it's tying
(11:16):
to this exclusive tying to anordained person, mostly an ordained
priest, or what we wouldconsider now to be an ordained pastor,
more so can officiate at the altar.
And when this came about, youknow, was in the Western church is
around the central MiddleAges, between the year 1000 and 1300,
(11:42):
a lot of sacramental ideasbegin to be ironed out within the
church as well as you know,it's in 1215 that we have a big council
called Fourth Lateran Council.
And that is the very firsttime that it says in Western church
history that only an ordainedpriest can perform the sacrament
at the altar.
And there has been a whole lotof Christianity before 1215.
(12:07):
And I think that's alwayssomething that comes as a surprise
to people.
And as this idea, thisidentification of the sacramental
roles of the priest were wasbecoming more defined, one of the
things that they began toargue was that a priest could only
be a celibate man.
And again is something that is new.
(12:30):
Most priests throughout mostof the Christian world were married.
They were like any other people.
And so this move, unless theywere monastics.
From the beginning, we havehad this strain of celibacy within
monasticism.
But monastics were notidentical with priests.
They were not the same thing.
And so this is where we seethis monastic ideal begins to graft
(12:53):
onto all orders of ordinationthat celibacy is important for those
who are going to perform thesacrament at the altar.
And this is at this time iswhen we begin to see women clearly
written out of ordination orsort of, or being able to be a priest
(13:14):
or being able to perform atthe altar completely.
And so, yeah, it's an evolution.
Quick question before we getto the Prospero information stuff.
I think it was you I read thisfrom that wasn't some of this also
tied to the fact that like alot of times the church was basically
being passed down to pastors, kids.
So they were trying to put astop to that too.
(13:34):
Yeah, yeah.
There's lots of factors behind this.
And what we have between theyear 1000 and 1300 is we see a series
of reforms in the church.
And a big impetus behind thisreform was to get the church wrested
from lay control, from thecontrol of ordinary people.
So they didn't want kings andaristocrats to be be able to control
(13:57):
who was running the churchesand who was performing the sacraments
and all of that sort of thing.
And so one of the reasons, oneof the ways they could do that, if
they enforce celibacy, thenthat means that the selection of
priests now comes through theclergy instead of through, you know,
through family networks.
(14:17):
And so it was definitely partof that.
Was part of this.
Yeah, yeah.
Which isn't a terrible motivecompared to some of what we see now.
No, it's not.
That part of it is very reasonable.
I think the part that comeswith it, though, is this fear of
women's bodies.
If we're trying to keeppriests from having children, then
(14:38):
that means that we've got toseparate priests from women.
Women are dangerous.
Women can't even come near thealtar because women are too dangerous.
And so that thread gets betterpulled into it, and that's when we
begin to see this very clearseparation of women from the sacramental
or most sacramental orders.
Although women continue to beordained throughout the medieval
period.
(15:00):
And then the ProtestantReformation, I know, like, priest
started to marry again, almostlike part of the reform again.
You're not a terrible motivation.
You kind of describe that aslike a large part of how we get to
the pastor's wife now, too, right?
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
No, I love.
Actually, I loved learningabout the beginning of the pastor's
wife role with the Reformationbecause I found out, you know, this
(15:23):
is something I hadn't reallythought about before, that pastor's
wives, those very earlypastors, wives, were symbols of resistance.
The way that you knew a pastorwas separating itself from Catholic
and becoming Protestant, or asthey called it at the time, evangelical.
But it's a differentevangelical than what we have today.
(15:44):
But the way you knew yourpastor was evangelical or that.
That some people wereevangelical was if they were married,
if their pastor was married.
And so literally, women becamesymbols of the Protestant resistance,
and it was dangerous for themto get married.
A lot of them actually gotkilled for it.
They were martyred for it.
(16:04):
And so this was, you know,this is women very much as heroes
here.
But at the same time, what wesee happening is that for the very
first time in Christianhistory, ministry becomes identified
by marriage.
And marriage becomes.
To be a minister means to be married.
(16:27):
And this is the first timethat has happened.
Yeah.
So check out my hot wife.
Used to be like a great battle cry.
Like, look at us.
We're resisting the church.
Yeah.
Catholic hierarchy.
And now it's just cringe, please.
Now it's, yeah, everybody,please stop doing.
Yeah, it's you know, I mean,it just shows how much of what we
(16:48):
take as ordinary andtraditional practices are just born
in.
In historic changes and over time.
And so this is ourunderstanding of ordination.
And who is a minister is notreally dictated by the Bible.
It is dictated by ourhistorical circumstances.
(17:12):
All right, so before we getinto the meat of the episode, we
are going to do what we callthe speed round.
Sort of.
Normally it's a lot morepersonal, but we're doing a special
one just for Dr. Beth Alison Barr.
Did people used to call you Babs?
Is that a thing?
So some people.
It's not part of the speed round.
People don't call me that.
I mean, I use that asinitials, like, for things.
(17:35):
Just DC Comic fans, I think.
Call me that.
It's okay.
All right.
I just thought of it.
I don't know.
Maybe I'm just as bad as Josh.
So we're going to go throughthe following list of names of women
from the Bible and churchhistory to see if you can tell us
a little bit about each ofthem in a single sentence.
One sentence.
So are you ready?
(17:57):
I'll ready as I can be.
All right, so we're going tostart with Hagar.
Okay.
Hagar is the first person toname God in the Bible.
She names him the God who.
And she is the enslaved womanwho is raped by Abram.
All right.
Deborah.
Deborah is the judge in theOld Testament, the female judge in
the Old Testament, who also isa seated judge.
(18:18):
She's the only other seatedjudge alongside Moses in the Old
Testament.
Mary Magdalene.
Oh, Mary Magdalene.
Mary Magdalene is one of theclose followers of Jesus, and she
is the first one who seesJesus at the resurrection and who
he entrusts in carrying themessage of the Gospel.
All right, Junia.
(18:38):
Junia is the.
Is a female apostle who'snamed in Acts that the.
I'm sorry.
In Romans 16.
Right.
Phoebe.
Phoebe is a deacon.
She is also named in Romans 6,in Romans 16.
Theodora.
Oh, go ahead.
Oh, Theodora.
Which Theodora?
Theodora the wife of Justinian.
(18:58):
Yes, Theodora, the wife of Justinian.
She was the wife of Justinian,the emperor of Constantinople in
the East.
She is also very associatedwith reforms for women as well as
in helping to push reforms forthe church.
All right.
Julia of Norwich.
Oh, she was an anchoress, amystic and ordained woman in the
(19:22):
late 14th century.
And she had a conversationwith another of my favorite mystics,
Marjorie kemp.
All right.
St. Margaret of Antioch.
Oh, St. Margaret of Antioch isan early Christian martyr who slayed
A dragon.
Super cool.
Katharina Luther.
Katherine Luther.
Luther she was.
Or Katie Luther.
She was the wife of MartinLuther, who we know a whole lot about.
(19:45):
People try to make her thequintessential pastor's wife, but
I don't think modern pastorswives would recognize what she did
today.
Dorothy Patterson is the wifeof Paige.
Patterson, who was one of thearchitects of the Southern Baptist
Convention.
And she also is the architect,in many ways, of the biblical womanhood
(20:05):
movement.
All right.
And Kathy Hoppe.
Hoppy.
Kathy Hoppy.
Kathy Hoppe is one of thewomen that I talk about in becoming
the pastor's wife, who as wellas in our podcast, all the Buried
Women.
And she was a woman ordainedby the Southern Baptist convention
in 1982, who they then kickedout of a church because she was ordained.
(20:28):
Interesting.
What a detailed history youmentioned earlier.
I'm gonna do a quickderailment and TJ will fix it.
I believe in him.
Or maybe I'll fix it.
We'll see you.
In general, how a lot ofpeople kind of misconstrue or even
misstate that ordination hasalways been just men.
(20:48):
Specifically, in your book,you mentioned Al Mohler making a
statement about this, whichwas great for me because we talk
about church unity.
I always try to show grace to everybody.
And I feel like my twoexceptions really are just Al Mohler
and Thomas Aquinas, becauseI'm just like, I just can't find
it.
I can't find the good there.
But.
(21:09):
Can you talk some about, like,what he said and why do you think
he just doesn't know thehistory, or is he, like, blatantly
ignoring it?
So Al Muller is one of thepeople that I struggle with showing
Christian grace to as well.
And I think it's because Ithink he knows it.
I don't know how he couldn'tknow it.
We know he knew it at onepoint because he supported women
in ministry at one point.
(21:31):
And so I think he knows, butis become so convinced, mesmerized
by his own interpretation,that he now.
I mean, essentially he's.
It's gaslighting.
This is like gaslighting atits most in a.
In a very large arena, as heis convicting, you know, 12 million
(21:57):
Southern Baptists that womenhave never served in pastoral roles
throughout all of history.
Yeah, yeah.
A lot of times when I have totalk about logical fallacies, I pull
up his podcast and, like,listen to one.
I'm like, here's a few examples.
I think he intentionally ismanipulative with how he Words, things.
And this is why I have a hardtime showing no grace, because I'm
like, I know as someone who'sover a university, you know better
(22:18):
than to straw me and otherpeople's argument to do this, like,
argument from authority, likeall the stuff that he does all the
time.
And I'm like, yeah, he.
I'm convinced he knows better.
This is a terrible segment fora church unity podcast.
But, you know, I mean, I thinkfor church unity, though, we've got
to call out people who are intentionally.
I mean, this sort of.
(22:39):
He has intentionally createddivision for somebody who claims
to not.
He has intentionally created division.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Sorry, I meant to say thatearlier and I was just like, I just
needed to pick your brainwhile you were here.
And I was like, I'm just goingto derail us.
It's fine.
But no, in your book, gettingback to some of the unity stuff,
the reason we do the show, Iguess one thing you write a lot about
(23:01):
is how redemptive language isused to allow men to.
Who have been found guilty ofsexual sins, even assault, a lot
of the times to keep workingin the church, while women are often.
Who were victimized, are oftentold to be quiet for the sake of
the church's reputation.
And we know Deidre and I alsoknow the language of unity.
(23:22):
It's been used reallyfrequently to silence voices who
try to speak out againstwrongdoings in the church.
You know, that's why we talk alot about how unity and uniformity
not the same thing.
Yes.
Do you think there's a waythat we can keep redemptive language
and language of unity frombeing co opted from those who hide
behind words like this, likeAl Mohler.
There we go.
I found a way to tie it in.
Yeah.
(23:42):
Yeah.
I think.
Well, I think we need to startbeing intentional about how we use
that.
We need to reclaim thatlanguage and order for somebody,
you know, because I do believethat people can be redeemed.
I wish people had intervenedwith a lot of these abusers much
earlier in their lives becausemaybe it could have helped them to
(24:03):
stop, to change their behaviorearly on.
And so I think we've got tobe, you know, in order to be redemptive,
we need to be transparentabout what they did.
And so part of our saying,yes, we are, we are praying for redemption
here.
This is our brother or sisterin Christ.
We want them to come back.
(24:24):
And therefore this is what happens.
And this is what the crime,you know, this is what they have
been alleged with doing Theseare credible allegations.
They have apologized for it,and we're going to put that out publicly
because people need to knowthis and because in order for this
person to really be redeemed,they also need to be held accountable
(24:45):
for it.
I think by.
By just bringing in thattransparency, we can still use that
language and reclaim it, whoare really bringing restoration.
Yeah, it's difficult.
It is.
I want to be cautious here.
I don't want to use any namesbecause I don't want to get in legal
trouble.
And I know you have plenty ofgood examples yourself, but one example
(25:07):
I go to that's been reallypoignant for me.
And when I talk to people,they seem to understand this one
a little bit better.
I know a church where one ofthe guys working in their youth has
gone to court, lied, and hadother people lie about what he did
with a young woman that, youknow, he kind of helped be one of
her pastors.
A little bit of, kind ofgrooming situation.
Knowing the details, I don'tthink it's as bad as it sounds.
(25:30):
What really makes me the mostangry, though, the church doesn't
tell anyone.
And to me, even as someonewho's not a parent, I'm like, imagine,
you know, that lack of transparency.
Your kid is in this youthgroup, and you don't know that because
the church felt like youdidn't need to know.
Yeah, that I don't know.
That's the kind of stuff thatI'm like, yeah, church unity.
But are we really being thechurch at this point?
(25:52):
You know?
Right, Absolutely.
And I think that, you know, Ithink we've hidden behind things
like gossip.
We say this is gossip.
You know, gossip is sayingsomething that's not true about person
intentionally to slander themor spreading things.
It's not, you know, sayingsomething that's true in order to
protect people.
That's not gossip.
(26:13):
And we have.
We have reframed somethingthat is good.
I mean, you know, Jesus didn'ttell us to keep secrets, you know,
and been told over and overagain that when things are in the
dark, you know, that.
That we are to bring light to darkness.
And that that's what thegospel does, is it brings light to
darkness.
(26:33):
And so I'm not sure whychurches keep hiding these things
in the dark.
They certainly don't help anything.
And, you know, and really,once they come out, they'll tear
churches apart.
And you've allowed those Abusto harm even more people.
Yeah.
And even when the.
The gossiper, you know, isproven correct, they switch and start
(26:54):
calling them a whistleblower.
There's still the negative connotations.
Yeah, it is.
It does.
We, people who tell the truthare not looked upon kindly.
I mean, without sayingspecific names.
The Southern BaptistConvention is a really good example
of this.
We can see how the survivorswho have come forward with very credible
allegations, many of which arebacked up by documentation, and yet
(27:19):
they have still been treatedas pariahs and called, you know,
the women called things like whores.
And it's just.
It's just horrific the waythat those survivors have been treated.
And even with these credible allegations.
And I think that says something.
You know, we are more quick toprotect the pastors than we are to
(27:45):
protect the potential victims.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's.
It's like.
I know just a few otherexamples I know we use.
A lot of times they'll say,and this isn't even outside of the
church.
You know, people say, oh,you're just being dramatic when someone's
literally just saying what happened.
And it's just like we usedifferent words to just kind of try
to belittle when someone tellsthe truth.
(28:06):
That happens a lot.
Another one, church specific.
I don't know if you've everheard people avoid the very appearance
of evil and it getsmistranslated and applied in weird
ways.
I'm like, that's just not whatthat's about.
Meanwhile, we ignore stufflike Ephesians where it's confess
your sins to one another.
Right?
Yeah.
(28:27):
I think people are worriedabout the shame that comes and.
Which is partly because ofwhat, you know, the way that we have
made sexual sin or things thatwe deem a sexual sin, we've sort
of put them beyond the pill,put them out of the church and said
that, you know, these arelike, the worst things that can happen.
(28:49):
Anybody who's out here, it'slike the worst things that can happen.
And so then it makes us morelikely to cover those up and to try
to.
Anyway, it's just.
I think we have created moreproblems for the church than we have
solved.
Yep.
So you speak a lot about howcomplementarian ideas can be harmful
(29:10):
and how the SBC has harmedmany women through both inaction
and action.
How do you think the rest ofthe church should interact with these
groups?
Should we refuse toparticipate in their service?
Should we not go to their events?
Nail 99 PCs to their door?
What do we do?
That is such a good question.
And it's one that, you know,people ask me all the time there,
(29:34):
and it's one that I've alsohad to grapple with.
And I think I kind of have tworesponses to it.
On the one hand, if we dobelieve, you know the verse you read
at the beginning, if webelieve in Jesus Christ, then we
are all one in Christ.
And so they are our brothersand sisters in Christ.
Even if we disagree on anissue that I would say is very harmful.
(29:58):
Women and to men also.
But I.
So, but yet even with mestrongly disagreeing on that, they
are still my brothers andsisters in Christ.
And so I think, yeah, there is still.
And we don't want to push themout where there's not any sort of
communication, because thatdoesn't do any good, because then
(30:21):
we're not able to have anysort of good influence whatsoever.
And so really what we need tobe able to do is to communicate well.
Yet at the same time, I thinkthere are certain places, certain
people, certain churches thathave proved themselves so untrustworthy
(30:43):
and so damaging and sodangerous that we can still say,
hey, if you believe in Jesus,you're still my brother and sister
in Christ, but we're not goingto have anything to do with you right
now because of what you havedone is so dangerous.
And the theology you'reespousing is so dangerous that we're
just gonna have to make a statement.
And if you want to come backto us, you can come, but we can't
(31:07):
keep coming to you.
And so I think.
I think there's nuance.
I'll use a good holy post word.
Yeah, I think there's nuancein this.
It's neither one way or theother way.
But I think it is important toremember that even people we disagree
with are still created in theimage of God.
And that people who claimChrist, it's not for us to say that
(31:29):
they're not real Christians.
That's not our business.
That's not our thing to do.
Our thing is to love them andshow them how and show them the qualities
of Christ through the way weinteract with them.
Yeah.
And it is challenging.
I'll just speak for myself andjust kind of get your thought on
(31:51):
this.
We do another podcast,Systematic Ecology, and one of the
other hosts on that show isSouthern Baptist, a good friend of
ours.
We have professors who come onthis show occasionally who I went
to school with them, who areSouthern Baptists, who.
I really respect them.
And I don't know.
For me, it's a weird spotwhere I'm like, I love working with
them on certain projects whereI feel more in control, just to be
(32:13):
honest.
And I love talking to them.
They're good people, from whatI know, and I think they really do
love God and Christ.
Yet at the same time, I thinkif one of them were to ask me to
speak at one of their churchesor to, you know, endorse something
specifically, I'm like, Idon't know, like, I could endorse
something maybe that you wrotespecifically, but something that
was written through, you know,SBC Publishing company or something.
(32:36):
Maybe not, you know, and that's.
That's where I finddifficulty, because I do know there
are good people, even in thesbc, who I think genuinely love God,
and I just disagree with them.
That's exactly right.
There are a lot of good peoplein the sbc.
They have been.
The reason they believe thesethings is because they have been
taught to believe thesethings, and they have been taught
that this is the best way tomove forward and that this is the
(32:58):
most biblical understanding.
And so the way to counter thatis to help them unpack what they
have been taught, which meanswe have to be in conversation with
them and we want.
You know, frankly, it would begreat if the SBC publishing house
would actually publish morediverse voices.
(33:20):
It just doesn't, which is oneof the problems with it.
But if it did publish morediverse voices, I think that would
go a long way in helping theSBC to become more.
More Big tent Christian if ourbig tent Baptist, if I can use that
phrase.
(33:41):
So I.
But it.
But it is hard, I think.
You know, I always tell peopleit comes down to your own personal
comfort, what you feel isright or wrong on that issue.
And if you are veryuncomfortable going into a situation
or working with a certainpeople, then just.
Then just don't do it.
And, you know, I mean, I'vestruggled with that.
(34:01):
So, too, with someinvitations, I've gotten to do certain
things.
And it's.
It's.
Sometimes it's a quandary.
Yeah.
Yeah.
A lot of prayer and discernment.
Yes.
Which.
Yeah, sounds like verySouthern Baptist language sometimes.
But it's fine.
That stuff.
I still believe.
Yes.
No, I think so, too.
I think it does.
It does require prayer,discernment, and really listening
(34:22):
to God about.
About what?
You know, Is it helpful towalk into this area where people
who might not otherwise hearyour voice might hear you.
That, you know, that would bea good thing.
And the challenging thing isto realize a lot of them are probably
asking the same thing whenthey come on my show and do stuff
(34:43):
with me.
So I'm like, You know, there'sa little bit of.
Both of us are like, is itworth it?
That's exactly right.
Yeah.
You know, if it's for unity,then we do have to have some of that.
Stepping across the lines.
Yep.
Yes.
So you get interviewed prettyfrequently on podcasts and videos
and episodes and stuff.
You know, all kinds of stuff.
(35:03):
Super famous.
So are there any questionsthat you don't get asked very often
that you wish you were askedabout more often?
Oh, gosh.
You know, I don't people,because I think people are much more
attuned to recent history.
I get asked a lot more aboutthe recent history in my books, which,
(35:24):
you know, is totally fair.
And especially like thepastor's wife.
I cover such a huge swath ofhistory and it, you know, so.
But sometimes I miss gettingto talk about some of those medieval
figures, some of those earlychurch figures or things that are
really in my wheelhouse,research wise.
(35:46):
But anyway.
But I also totally understandit because I'm the medievalist who
started talking aboutcomplementarianism and Baptist.
So, you know, that's my fault too.
Can you read like 150 books onpastors wives for your most recent
project?
Yeah, it's crazy.
That's so mad.
Most of them are a centuryfrom, you know, the early 20th century
to the early 21st century, so.
(36:08):
Yeah, so they're very recent.
Yeah.
So.
So do you have a favoritemedieval church woman?
Oh, absolutely.
Marjorie Kemp.
Hands down.
Hands down.
Although St Winifred is aclose second.
Probably Margaret Beaufort,who was Henry the seventh mom.
She was the beginning of theTudor dynasty.
She's one of my favoritechurch women.
(36:29):
She was also very fond ofSaint Winifred.
So there.
There's a lot.
There's a lot of.
A lot of women in the medievalworld that I could talk about.
In fact, that's my next book.
That I'm excited for.
I love, because, I don't know,it's like, it's hard to find medieval
church stuff that's writtenwell, that's what I'm gonna say,
(36:51):
because.
No, totally.
And that's accessible.
And that is.
That is accessible.
That is still academically sound.
That is still.
And that is appealing.
It's.
It's challenging.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a way better questionthan I was going to ask.
I was going to ask who yourfavorite modern fantasy writer is.
(37:13):
That's.
Oh, that's actually a goodquestion, too.
So modern fantasy writer, youjust say Patrick Rothfuss.
I do like Patrick Rothfuss.
He's on myself here behind me.
I'm very afraid of his thirdbook, though, because right now.
Well, the first book wasreally good.
In the Name of the Name of the Wind.
(37:34):
The second book was.
It wasn't quite.
I don't know.
I was really.
Yeah.
And so I'm a little wonderingabout the third book.
I'm not sure.
Have you read the short.
The novella?
Yep.
Absolutely.
And I really like that.
It's so good.
They were.
They were the books I had onyour bookshelf for a long time, Josh.
Yeah, on the bookshelf righthere behind me.
(37:58):
So I also.
Yeah, no, I do a lot.
I do a lot of detectivefiction, fantasy, sci fi.
So, anyway, speaking ofdetective, I think.
The weirdest thing I've beenreading lately, Kamagua Food Detectives.
I finished the first book.
It took me forever to realizethat there's two more.
It was like a Japanese bestseller.
It was translated to English.
I found it in Colorado.
(38:21):
I have a really weird tendencywhere I like to go into local bookstores
and just ask whoever's workingthere what I should read, and then
I just read whatever they say.
That's a great idea.
Yeah.
No, man.
And I really appreciate.
Because, you know, you'retalking about the medieval stuff.
I just really appreciate howyou really are one of the few people
who's really great at, like,staying academic and still, like,
(38:42):
I can read this and feel likeI know what's happening.
So I'm really excited for thatnext book.
Yeah, I'm glad.
Yeah.
But so one other thing we dofor everyone, every guest we have
on, we like to ask forpractical action.
So something that would helpbetter engender church unity today.
(39:03):
What do you think?
Something that our listenerscould stop and go do right now to
help with Christian unity.
Yeah.
So one of the best things thatmy family did when we were sort of
in between churches is that wewent and visited a lot of churches
that we would never considerattending just to see how they did
things, just to talk withpeople who were there.
And it was a really good thingfor my soul because it helped me
(39:26):
see how big the Christianworld is, how diverse Christian practices
are, and that even people thatI would not want to worship in the
style that they do, that theyare still part of the body of Christ.
And I.
You know, I think a lot of theproblem we've had is we've become
so siloed, and we only knowone type of church experience, and
(39:48):
the Christian world is muchdeeper and broader than that.
And I think if we would justlook a little Bigger than ourselves.
We would be much quicker toreach out to people instead of closing
them off.
What do you think the worldwould look like if we all just start
(40:08):
doing that?
Wow.
I mean, it would be amazing.
I think.
I think it would certainlybroaden our understanding of who
God is and what church is.
It would be break down misconceptions.
You know, a lot of the thingswe read about other churches, a lot
of them just aren't true.
And so it's like, well, whydon't you go see?
(40:31):
Why don't you go to thatchurch and go visit it?
Go talk to people?
I mean, some of your fears aregoing to be confirmed.
Like, I remember going to this church.
I'll never forget who had thedrive by communion table, which I
was just like, oh, my gosh.
Theologically, it's like that.
Just really.
But they were still very Christian.
They weren't still Christian.
And so I think it breaks downthose misconceptions.
(40:53):
And also we get to see thepeople who we thought we were so
against.
And even I was at the SouthernBaptist Convention just was that
last week, I think last week.
And as disturbing as a lot ofthe things I heard were, it also
helped me humanize that theseare really people who are seeking
(41:14):
the will of God.
And I think what.
I think what they think is thewill of God has been distorted.
But nonetheless, there are somany of them.
They are really just trying to seek.
The will of God.
And so it helped me tohumanize them.
All right, so before we wrapup, we do like to ask everyone to
share a moment where they sawGod recently.
(41:35):
Whether it be a blessing, achallenge mode of worship, whatever
it may be.
I always make Josh go first,so we have plenty of time to think.
So, Josh, do you have a Godmoment for us this week?
I have plenty.
Finding one is always difficult.
This is the one I'm gonna usethis week.
I'll go with the lamest thingI could think of because it's just
stuck in my brain.
I have a tendency to overblowthings that I have to do in my head
(41:58):
where I'm like, I have 5million things to do.
A lot of the times it's true,sometimes it's not.
This week I was like, oh, man,I have, like, six hours of homework
to do.
So I got on to start myhomework and I was done in like 15
minutes.
I just did not have that much homework.
And then I was like, ah, well,that's all I had planned for the
rest of my day.
My wife was Reading the book.
So I guess we're not watching tv.
I just sat there and playedPlanet Zoo for a while.
(42:19):
Shocking.
And turned the volume off andlistened to outdoors while I was
doing it.
I don't have the correct sizedtable to sit outside and play and
it's too hot to run around outside.
So.
Yeah, I just designed a reallykiller panda exhibit.
And at a nice, refreshingtime, I rested in the Lord while
playing Steam Duck.
(42:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a good moment.
It was great.
Yeah.
So for me, since we've lastrecorded, I have driven to and from
Virginia in the same day tohelp move one of my best friends
back to our city.
And, you know, 615 mileslater, it was worth it.
(43:04):
I would do anything for.
Honestly, most people, I justlike to get the opportunity to be
able to do something like that.
And it feels so good to seethe fruits of your labor come true
because now one of my bestfriends lives not five hours away
anymore.
Yeah, that's great.
Also named Josh, by the way,with the best opinions.
(43:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm gonna cheat because I justremembered the God moment I wanted
to say that I forgot.
Oh, you're gonna do another one?
Yeah, he wants to.
I'm sorry.
This one, though, I think T.J.will appreciate.
I found out that it waspossible for me to request more money
for my school if I was like,hey, I need equipment and I needed
a computer.
So just got approved today, actually.
(43:47):
And I'm gonna get to get a newcomputer and support a good friend
of mine's business who alsosponsors this show.
Check out TJ Tech.
That's what it's called.
It's not what it's called, but yeah.
Yeah.
So that was exciting.
Sweet.
Yeah.
I thought you would like toknow that.
And this was a fun time to say it.
So, yeah, that's prettyexciting for me.
(44:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, Dr. Barr, do you have aGod moment for us?
Oh, gosh, yes.
I try to look, especially asI've gotten older, in stopping and
seeing and looking and seeingwhere God is working.
An easy one for us this weekis that our very tiny, very economically
(44:28):
challenged church has had VBSthis week.
And we had two new familieswho we'd never known before, who
came and brought their.
And brought their kids.
And just my job, I don't teachsmall kids.
My job is I do registration.
And then I walk around with mycamera and my phone and take pictures
of things during.
(44:50):
During the events andlistening to those kids learn about
Jesus and come and show metheir crafts And I just always think
I'm like, you know, God, God,you are here and this is what it's
all about.
And I'm just thankful I cansee that, that I got to see that.
Four nights this week.
(45:10):
Yeah.
Vacation Bible school rocks.
Yeah.
So if you're listening, thankyou so much.
Thank you for your time, Dr. Barr.
And please consider sharingthe episode with a friend.
Share with your enemies.
Share with a cousin,especially cousins.
We can definitely guilt acousin into listening to the show,
and especially cousins.
Sorry, I. Yeah.
(45:31):
If you're looking for a way tosupport the show, you can always
wear the merch.
Today is one of the onlytimes, just in general, that I've
seen Josh without some of it on.
It is really comfy, but it'ssuper comfy.
It looks good, it'sunderstated, and it'll take start
a conversation.
So check it out.
Support us.
Support yourself.
(45:51):
Yeah.
Also, I'm going to breakformat for a second.
Dr. Barr, do you have a coupleminutes after the show to do a bonus
thing for our patrons?
Sure, if you have time.
Sweet.
In that case, also considersupporting us on Patreon.
For a fun bonus question, Iwant to pick Dr. Barr's brain a little
bit more about Thomas Aquinas.
I want to hear more about whywe don't like him.
(46:12):
So if you want just to hear usbash Thomas Aquinas, it'll be on
Patreon.
I might even make it a freeone because I think everyone needs
to hear this.
So don't support us on Patreon.
You're gonna get it for free anyway.
Well, yeah, you could still,like, you could still subscribe.
There's a free tier.
You can subscribe.
So anytime that I'm like,something should be free.
We still get the free stuff,but we also appreciate if you do
(46:33):
like a dollar or two, it's fine.
But other things you should dois check out other shows in the network
on Azale Podcast network,something we're supposed to support
because we're a part of it.
And I think we started it.
We sure did.
Yeah.
Like Brandon Knights, myseminary life.
Great stuff.
You know, we mentioned our SBCfriend, let nothing move you.
That's a Bible podcast.
He does.
(46:53):
If you want.
If you want to hear that takeor if you want here, a more progressive
take on the Bible.
So do both.
This is what I always think isgood to hear both sides.
Check out the Bible afterhours with the foul mouth preacher.
I'm not as progressive as thatside and nowhere near as conservative
as a Christian side.
So if you hear both and youfind the middle, that might be where
I'm at.
Yeah.
All right.
Yeah.
We hope you enjoyed it.
Next week we're going to betalking with Josh Patterson about
(47:15):
some backlash he receivedabout a podcast he shared in a Christian
group and how we hope our owngroups might handle similar situations.
After that, we'll be speakingwith Jonathan Mackin, an Anglican
autism researcher, about hiswork with faith and those on the
spectrum.
They were going to be speakingwith Brian Wrecker about his book
Hell Bent and how doctrinesabout hell may be harmful.
(47:36):
Finally, at the end of seasonone, Francis Chan will be on the
show.
But he doesn't maybe sosomeone does have to tell him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or it will never happen andyou'll have like five more years
of season one.
Yep.
Which, which you will.
Which you will.
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