June 25, 2025 • 44 mins
The conversation with Father Castello Vore, an Independent Catholic Priest, spiritual director, and TikTok influencer, delves into the profound significance of spiritual gifts and the nature of church unity. Father Vore articulates the necessity of adhering to an intuitive love, rather than a strictly institutional approach, in order to foster genuine connections within the faith community. He elucidates the transformative power of the sacraments and emphasizes that the Holy Spirit inherently binds believers together in unity. The discussion further touches upon the importance of recognizing God’s presence in others, advocating for a more accessible spirituality through modern platforms such as TikTok. As we engage in this enlightening dialogue, we encourage listeners to reflect on their own spiritual journeys and the essence of communal faith.
Father Castello Vore, a distinguished Independent Catholic Priest, spiritual director, and TikTok influencer, engages in a profound dialogue with Joshua Noel and TJ Blackwell on The Whole Church Podcast. This episode delves into the intricacies of faith, the role of the sacraments, and the essence of Christian unity, highlighting the necessity of love and humility in ecclesiastical discourse. Father Vore elucidates his journey from a Pentecostal upbringing to embracing the sacramental life, articulating how his spiritual evolution has not only deepened his faith but also enhanced his understanding of community within the church. The conversation navigates the complexities of modern spirituality, emphasizing the importance of recognizing God's presence in every individual, irrespective of denominational differences.
Central to this episode is the exploration of spiritual gifts and their manifestations within the church. Father Vore discusses the relevance of scriptural teachings, particularly from First Corinthians, to contemporary church practices, advocating for an intuitive love that transcends institutional confines. He posits that the exercise of spiritual gifts should be rooted in genuine love and mutual respect, fostering an environment where all members can contribute to the collective spirituality. The dialogue also touches upon the challenges faced by independent churches in maintaining unity with broader Catholic traditions, as well as the innovative ways in which social media can facilitate spiritual engagement and community-building.
Listeners are invited to reflect on their own spiritual journeys and the ways in which they can contribute to church unity. Father Vore encourages an open-minded approach to inter-denominational relationships, urging listeners to engage with others who hold differing views, thereby enriching their own faith experiences. This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the transformative power of love, humility, and understanding in the quest for a unified Christian witness in a diverse world.
Takeaways:
- Father Castello Vore articulates the significance of intuitive love over institutional rigidity in contemporary church practices.
- He emphasizes that the sacramental nature of faith allows for a deeper commitment to one's spiritual life and community.
- The dialogue on ecumenism reveals how various denominations can enrich each other by sharing their unique insights and gifts.
- Vore encourages individuals to meditate on their inherent calling towards unity, emphasizing the Holy Spirit's role in fostering connections among diverse believers.
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Check out all of the other shows in the Anazao Podcast Network:
https://anazao-ministries.captivate.fm
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Listen to other episodes we have done around the topic of LGBTQ inclusion in Church (and hear how our own perspectives have changed since starting this show):
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:23):
First Corinthians 14, 26, 33,and the new American Standard Bible
reads, what is the outcome then?
Brothers and sisters, when youassemble, each one has a psalm, has
a teaching, has a revelation,has a tongue, has an interpretation.
All things are to be done for edification.
If anyone speaks in a tongue,it must be by two or at the most,
(00:45):
three in each, one in turn,and one is to interpret.
But if there is nointerpreter, he is to keep silent
in the church and have himspeak to himself and to God.
Have two or three prophetsspeak and have the others pass judgment.
But if a revelation is made toanother who is seated, then the first
one is to keep silent.
For you can all prophesy oneby one, so that all may learn and
(01:05):
all may be exhorted.
And the spirits of theprophets are subject to prophets.
For God is not a God ofconfusion, but of peace.
In this pericope of scripture, St.
Paul just finished discussingthe gifts of the Spirit, the importance
of love above any of thegifts, and here he's in the middle
of describing how we shouldorder the exercise of our spiritual
gifts during the church service.
(01:27):
Father Costello, how can thismessage for order in our churches
help us today?
Well, first, I think that thefirst pivot that we have to make
is that this is talking aboutan intuitive love and not an institutional
movement.
This isn't natural.
This is something spiritual.
And it's a spiritual exercise,which I think causes a deeper commitment
(01:51):
to the interior life that weall possess.
Because when you look at that,it's talking about love in a much
more descriptive way thansometimes we can be used to, because
love is spoken a lot about inmany different churches.
But it can be kind ofambiguous, and it talks about beautiful
ways to do that.
The thing that comes to meright now is where it says that the
(02:14):
prophets are subject to one another.
And that's what we don't wantto believe in our culture and in
the west especially, is thatwe're subject to one another in love,
because that's not it.
That's not an authoritarian subject.
It's love subjecting us to oneanother because we're all made and
(02:34):
shaped in the image of God.
So I would tell people, stickto the intuitive side of that scripture,
but also lean into the partwhere it says we're subject to one
another in love and not in anauthoritarian way.
But the prophets are subjectto one another because it's loving
to submit to the unity of thechurch in that manner.
(03:00):
Yeah.
Amen.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to the whole church.
Podcast, Possibly yourfavorite church unity podcast.
It's cool.
If it's not though, we reallydon't mind.
I am really excited fortoday's episode.
We are going to be just kindof introducing, getting you guys
(03:22):
to know a new friend of ours,Father Costello, who he grew up as
a Pentecostal.
He is now an independentCatholic priest and a spiritual director.
Also a TikTok influencer.
Interesting all around greatguy that you guys should get to know
because we're going to bedoing an episode here in August to
celebrate the first 100 daysof folk John XIV.
(03:43):
Maybe celebrate is the wrong word.
Reflect on the first hundred days.
We'll see.
We'll see if it's celebratedor not.
When we get there.
Hopefully celebrate.
Yeah, hopefully it'll be a celebration.
Excited for this.
You know, we're just buildingup the.
The whole church MCU model.
The wcu.
Yeah.
And of course at the headisn't Kevin Feige, but the one whom
(04:04):
Kevin Feige hopes to modelhimself after, the one and only tj.
Toby Swan Blackwell.
How's it going?
Good, thanks.
And like Josh said, we're herewith Father Costello.
He is grown up Pentecostal,which we can all relate to, naturally.
Everyone who's hearing thisnow, congratulations, you grew up
Pentecostal, now you're welcome.
(04:24):
They just didn't know.
Currently an independentCatholic priest and a spiritual director
is a TikTok influencer.
And that's something that westruggle with is short form content.
I'll say almost struggle isthe right word.
Simply don't do TikTokIncapable of just.
Short form in general.
Mm.
(04:44):
Yeah.
I mean, that's not something weird.
If I thought we were capableof it, I might be willing to do an
Instagram reel.
Right?
But I'm not.
I don't think.
I don't think you are.
I'm too long winded.
Yeah, yeah.
But if you're listening tothis, you should check out the Onazal
Podcast network website.
The link is below for showslike ours.
And you can also pay tosubscribe on Apple Podcasts to support
(05:07):
us.
That way you get some extracontent from all the shows in the
network, including this one.
So check us out there, rateus, interview us while you're over
there or wherever you listento your podcasts.
The ratings go a long way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And nothing goes a long wayfor church unity.
It's going to be silliness.
It's holy sacrament herebecause you can't be in disarray
(05:28):
when you're being as Silly asI like to be.
Today we have a special silly question.
TJ and I will answer first.
Give our father a little bitof time to think about it.
How would the cars in Carsplay ping pong?
I actually want TJ to answer first.
Too much pressure for me.
Yeah.
Okay.
So there's a sport called Techball.
Not sure if you're aware of that.
(05:49):
Nope, it's ping pong, but thetable's much shorter because it's
played with your feet.
And a soccer ball.
So it'd be sort of like that.
I think in the Cars world, itwould just be a short ping pong table
and they would do as they doin the Cars universe and just have
a comically sized ping pongpaddle and just play it like a regular
(06:10):
table and hold it just kind offloating next to their wheel because
that's how they do things in there.
The images that come up on aGoogle tech ball are incredible.
Yeah, it's T, E, Q, B, A, L, L.
If someone's trying to lookfor it.
Yeah.
Which you should.
Super awesome to watch.
This is now all I want to seein life.
(06:30):
But you should also answer the question.
This looks like the mostintense combination of soccer and
ping pong ever.
I don't know why I feel likeI'm gonna go opposite TJ here.
I think they have a massiveping pong table with a.
With a racetrack around it.
And two of them are just likeracing back and forth, you know,
on different sides of the track.
(06:51):
That's what I see it as, likejust all high speed craziness.
Yeah, that's my thought process.
But yeah.
Fellow casts, where you at, man?
How do you think the cars andcars are playing ping pong?
Irregardless, it would behands free.
That's all I have.
Hands free.
That's the.
That's the answer.
They're using Bluetooth battles.
Their approach is between themand God.
(07:13):
But it's gonna be hands.
Nothing to do with me.
Yeah, that's fair.
That's a good answer.
Question.
So before we get into the maintopic, one thing that we noticed
that helps engender Christianunity is to listen to one another's
story.
So would you mind sharing withus some of your story and how you've
(07:33):
come to the place you're atnow with your faith?
I would say that the mostcommon thing that I say to people
is that I feel like I'm afulfilled Pentecostal by coming to
the ancient church and intothe sacraments.
I mean, you know, we believethat when I consecrate the Eucharist,
that the Spirit comes down inwhat we call the epiclesis and makes
(07:56):
the bread and wine somehow,some way, mysteriously, into the
body, blood, soul, anddivinity of Jesus.
I don't think it's easy toescape a charismatic reality if you
believe that there's atransformation of the elements.
So I would say that myPentecostal path led me to, in many
(08:17):
ways, the place that I am now,and that I'm more charismatic and
more Pentecostal, being aCatholic priest, than.
Than I was even when I was inthose spaces, because they're hungering
for something, you know?
And when I was Pentecostal,always felt like we had something
special, but we also were incomplete.
And I think Sacramentologybrings people to a complete experience
(08:42):
with the Holy Spirit becauseit brings the movement of the Spirit
into our bodies and into ourlives in a tangible and tactile way.
I like that.
I like that answer.
Yeah, that's very nice.
So was it like adeconstruction moment or like a specific
thing that you question thatmade you want to change, or was it
(09:02):
just once you started seeinghow the sacraments was done that
you were like, I need to shiftgears here in my denomination?
Yeah, I don't think my.
I don't think sacrament.
The Sacramento part was my deconstruction.
I mean, that kind of camelater, because when I was 18, that's
when I started attending Mass.
And it was until I was.
It wasn't until I was 22 thatI started going to the Episcopal
(09:25):
Church and really encountering deconstruction.
But so I would say maybe theanswer is, is that the Sacramentology
was my construction phase.
And then later on, likeliberation and to, like, queer theology
and some of the greatdeconstructionists, like Brian McLaren
and Brad Jursack and thosekind of people came later.
(09:48):
Yeah, but sacrament came first.
Sacrament first.
Cool, cool, cool, cool.
All right.
Well, so one thing I just wantto get off the bat, because I'm sure
it's probably confusing to alot of people.
Could you maybe explain forour listeners the difference between
an independent Catholic Churchand then the Roman Catholic Church,
and then what relationshipdoes your church still have with
(10:10):
the Roman Catholic Church?
Well, the first is how we structure.
Our ecclesiology and our authority.
We don't have a pope.
That's the most digestible wayto look at it.
Most of our communities arerun by groups of bishops who are
forming consensus rather thanthe capability for one person to
(10:33):
come to infallible Conclusions.
We don't have a, we don't havea figurehead or a authority figure
in the form of the papacy.
We're not under the authorityof Pope Leo, we were not under the
authority of Pope Francis.
And the way that that was bornwas that the Reformation was so hot
(10:58):
in the Netherlands that therebegan to be this movement coming
forth of reform Catholicism tosome degree different than the Reformation
of like Luther and Calvin, buta reshaping and an evolution of Catholicism
that challenged the doctrineof papal infallibility and the dogmatic
declaration of the Immaculate Conception.
(11:20):
And you know, so we're notunder the Pope.
We come to conclusions byconsensus, through synods of bishops
and we reject papalinfallibility in the doctrine of
the Immaculate except theImmaculate Conception to some degree.
Some old Catholics do believein the Immaculate Conception, but
(11:41):
it's not a non negotiable.
That's interesting.
By the Immaculate Conception,do you mean the Immaculate Conception
of Mary or also of Jesus?
So in regards to the, what theImmaculate Conception is, the basic
way to describe the ImmaculateConception is, is that if Jesus is
the Savior of the world andhe's saving us from a virus, Mary
(12:02):
was preserved from that virusfrom the beginning.
Jesus still had to save her.
But there's this sense thatshe was preserved from the mark of
original sin in the RomanChurch because Jesus took away that
virus from the beginningrather than.
So at her conception.
The whole sin situation wastaken care of.
(12:23):
And I won't say whether Ibelieve that or not, but that's the,
of Rome.
And that was dogmatized, mademajor doctrine, made major teaching
in Rome.
And the original oldCatholics, the original independent
Catholics, had an issue with that.
Okay, I can understand howthat makes a lot more sense than
(12:44):
my initial thought, which wasJesus being, you know, an immaculate
concept.
Right.
Okay.
I can see why someone wouldhave a problem with that though.
Yeah, that's interesting.
A lot of people kind ofconflate the Virgin birth and the
Immaculate Conception.
Yeah.
So there is one thing we liketo do that helps our audience and
(13:06):
ourselves get to know you better.
And we call it our speed round segment.
And we're going to ask you aseries of questions about what you
believe and ask that you tryto answer each and a single question.
You can just say you want toskip it, that's fine.
We're not allowed to ask youany follow up questions.
And there's just, what is it?
Nine, ten questions.
So one sentence, I'm ready oryou can skip it, either one is fine.
(13:30):
You ready?
All right.
I'm ready.
Who or what is God?
I would say that God is theone thing that just is.
He was not created.
All right.
What is salvation?
Salvation is when the humansoul, by the invitation of God, it's
drawn into a unity with God.
What is the significance ofbaptism and the Eucharist?
(13:52):
Baptism brings us into thefamily of God in the sense that it
is the ordinary means of grace.
It doesn't mean there aren'tother ways, but it's the way that
God instituted through thechurch to bring people into the family
of God.
And the Eucharist is.
Girl.
Oh, my God.
How can you.
How can you answer that in one.
(14:12):
One question?
But I would say that inregards to relating it to the salvation
question, the Eucharist is oneof the ways that we consume God to
become God.
All right.
What authority does scripture have?
Wow.
The authority that Scripturehas in the church primarily is a
(14:32):
centerpiece of an ongoingconversation about God within the
church.
That's, I think, the most.
That's the authority that Ican give it because it's something
that I wrestle with a lot.
What should the Bible be tothe church?
What authority does tradition have?
I think it anchors us in themost important things about our faith.
(14:53):
It doesn't necessarily havethe final word all the way to the
end and fill in all thedetails, but tradition is kind of
like the skeletal model of ahome, but yet you don't necessarily
have the couch in there.
When you have the skeleton ofhome, you don't necessarily have
the sink built yet, but itgives us a living and breathing structure
(15:15):
that we ought not stray from.
All right.
Do you believe in acontinuation of the gifts of the
spirit?
100%.
I can't see a church thatdoesn't have the continuation of
the gifts.
The only way for the church tocease to have the gifts is for the
church to cease to have theHoly Spirit.
Not only do I believe in thecontinuation of the gifts, I believe
it's impossible for anycommunity to not experience them.
(15:38):
That even means, like in JohnMacArthur's church, where he completely
denies them, the Spirit shows up.
That's the way it works.
If Jesus is mentioned, theHoly Spirit's going to show up charismatically.
It's.
It's.
It's kind of like gravity.
You can't really deny it.
You can say all day long thatgravity is not true, but I'm sitting
in this chair right nowbecause it's true.
(16:01):
So if so, would you say theinitial evidence of that is speaking
in tongues?
No.
I struggle with that question,because I feel like that the.
That kind of pins the.
The baptism of the Holy Spiritinto one linear moment, kind of like
this moment in time.
I believe that the timelessnature of the Spirit, that there
are many baptisms in the HolySpirit and there are many evidences
(16:23):
of that.
I mean, the Spirit can baptizeus to love our neighbor more deeply.
The Spirit can baptize us tospeak in tongues.
It can baptize us to be drawntoward the Eucharist.
So I.
I won't.
I won't pin the Spirit'sbaptism down to a singular moment.
All right.
Can God change?
God is suffering with us.
God is experiencing us everymoment of our life because he lives
(16:47):
in us.
Therefore, if somethingchanges in us, God experiences a
change.
I don't think his essence andnature changes, but I think because
he experiences who we areconstantly, that his experience is
ever changing in that regard.
What do you love about the Bible?
What do I love about the Bible?
Yeah, I like that it looksmore like us than we would kind of
(17:10):
want it to.
It's imperfect.
It has bizarre sides to it.
It has glorious sides to it.
And I think it looks more likethe human soul than we could imagine.
And it reveals God.
So it reveals God in us.
It reveals the power and theperfection of God, but it reveals
the fragility of humanity.
And I think that's prettybadass, in my opinion.
(17:31):
Yeah, I think we want theBible to fall out of the sky, but
it emerges from humanity, andI think we're threatened by that.
And I think it's beautifulthat it came from humans.
I think that makes it moreholy in an incarnational sense.
It's a very poetic way to lookat the Bible.
I know some people who wouldlove that.
So what do you love about the Church?
(17:54):
I think it's similar that it'salways bad and it's always good.
And when people get reallyhigh on the positivity of the church,
we can see its shadow and itcan be kind of earthy and approachable.
But when people look at itscandal, the reaction ought not be
to run away, but to lean in toit, because there's also power and.
(18:18):
And the presence of God there.
So I like that the church hasa shadow and a shining because I
think that makes it real.
So which, if any, of the sevensacraments do you follow?
All seven and all the onesthat we can't label.
I think that life issacramental, but I believe that the
major seven are a goodcategorical organization for the
(18:43):
main ones, but I won't limitthose seven.
I think that there's, there'sa lot of sacramental nature to the
world that we, we don't know about.
All right, well, congratulations.
You've completed your firstwhole church speed round.
But we made it.
It can be hard, it can be difficult.
We made it, we made it.
(19:04):
Well, now the speed round'sover, I can ask follow up questions.
Cheating.
But.
You were talking about thesacraments and how life can be sacramental.
A lot of people thinksacrament as like, these are some
of the nice rituals that ourchurch does.
I think it's like similar tojust ritual.
Could you maybe expound alittle bit on what you mean by sacrament
(19:26):
and why you think that lifecan be sacramental?
I think we first have to talkabout the choice of God before we
talk about the sacraments andthat is that one of the number one
rules in the sense of normalaspects of my theology is that God
could have done everything,everything without us, but he chooses
to do things with us.
(19:47):
And in that sense, I think theattitude of God in the sacraments
is to come to us and allow usto participate in his life and to
bring his life to the world inphysical means along with spiritual
realities, rather than pushingus away and saying, I'm God, I have
all authority, I have allpower, all the glory belongs to me.
(20:10):
He says those things are true,but also you get to participate in
that.
So I think that's what makesthe sacrament so powerful, is that
God's inviting us into doinglife with him, to co creating life
with him when he didn't haveto do that.
That was a choice of radicallove on his part.
(20:31):
So when we come to asacrament, it's just as much about
the fact that human beings areconduits of his power as it is them
being some kind of ancient ritual.
Yeah, I like that.
So one thing just shift gearsa little bit.
You know, we talked to someabout your ministry as a priest,
(20:52):
but a huge part of yourministry right now also has to do
with being a spiritualdirector and a TikTok influencer.
So I was wondering if youcould mind, if you would mind maybe
explaining some of what you doas a spiritual director and what
you do as a TikTok influencerand what the work you do there.
Part of my philosophy ofministry is this ministry is not
(21:12):
so much about bringing God topeople, it's about recognizing God
in people.
It's arrogant for me tobelieve that God is not already moving
in the lives of the peoplethat Come to me.
So I'm not here to like takeGod and put it on like a clean slate.
I'm here to say God is movinghere, here and here.
And also I can invite them tothings that they don't already have.
(21:34):
But my beginning place isdiscovery and not deposit into their
life and in spiritual direction.
Being able to notice by thespirit, but also being a trained
spiritual director, I sit withpeople for an hour and I'm able to
notice the move of God intheir life and ask questions and
(21:54):
help them turn in, turn in totheir interior life and tune into
God within them so that theymight be more sensitive to the movement
of God in their life.
Because God is moving in their life.
There's not a human alive thatGod is not actively moving in and
through even the worst of us.
That's beautiful.
(22:15):
Tick tock.
I don't even know.
I didn't know I was a ticktock influencer until you told me.
So I just, I think peopledeserve an easier spirituality.
I don't think it should be all hard.
And I think if somebody popson my TikTok and there's a, like
a moment of the power of Godin their day just because they saw
(22:38):
me talk about something orthey saw a quote I put on, let it
be made known that I'm tryingto make the spiritual life easier
and not harder for people.
And that's one of thebeautiful things that social media
has done for spirituality isit's provided like a way for some
people to just be able to havelike God pop into their day through
(22:59):
a short, a short video.
And I think a lot of churchleaders don't think that's enough.
But in the busy and chaoticlives that we have, it's important
to give people the grace to,maybe they only have 10 or 20 minutes
to actively dwell on God'snature and actively meditate on that.
And I'm going to give that to them.
(23:21):
I'm going to give them theeasier path.
That's what it means to be a priest.
Making spirituality moreaccessible to people and not more
difficult.
Right.
Everyone's super busy these days.
If you've got eight seconds ofJesus in your day, that's better
than zero seconds.
So true.
Exactly true.
You gotta get what you can.
(23:42):
But our podcast is primarilyfocused on Christian unity.
So other than yourrelationship with, you know that
your congregation has withother Catholic and the Roman Catholic
churches, are there any otherecumenical efforts or relationships
that your church maintains?
I think we have a lack ofluxury in the independent movement.
(24:04):
To be so Catholic that we justkind of bar people.
There's no one in my churchwho was raised Catholic, and some
of them are kind of, like, notreally all the way there, but they
show up and they receive thesacraments from us, and they receive
the teachings.
But I think that independentCatholicism is inherently catholic
(24:25):
as well as ecumenical.
So I think that my whole lifeis ecumenical.
I mean, much of the mainstreamRoman Church would reject me, so
I tend to hang out with, like,mainstream progressive Protestants.
And I just.
This Catholic door is open topeople, and I don't turn people away.
(24:46):
I'm always trying to convertpeople to an aspect of my faith and
not necessarily my whole faith.
So if I can get them prayingthe rosary or something, I'm happy.
But, you know, I don't live in this.
In a Catholic echo chamber.
Maybe not because I'm so piousand holy, but because I don't really
have the luxury of living inthis kind of narrow world.
(25:08):
It's just not possible in theindependent movement.
And I consider that to be a gift.
All right, so is it, like,device, like, when you meet other
Catholics and they find outyou're independent, Is that, like,
a point of contention for them?
It depends on who it is.
I mean, I've been every.
I've had everything but frombeing threatened with death to being
(25:29):
told that I'm a heretic andblasphemous and an enemy of the mother
Church, all the way to peoplenot understanding why I'm not respected
as a priest more.
And I just have to kind of.
I kind of have to, like, plowmy little narrow part of the field
and be in my part of the bodyof Christ and kind of say, I'm going
(25:50):
to minister to the people thatGod's called me to minister to and
kind of say, screw that noisewith those people, because my job
is to fill myself with theenergy for my ministry and not focus
on their criticism.
Not that I don't want to, butsimply because when Jesus said, go
into all the world and makedisciples, baptize them in the name
(26:12):
of the Father, Son, and HolySpirit, I have to prioritize that.
And if I'm responding tocritics, I'm doing less discipling
of people.
I'm not being a conduit of thesacramental life.
And I would just say if you.
If people can ignore thecritics and do the ministry.
Yeah, yeah.
All right, so quick sidebar,because I found this amusing.
(26:35):
Last weekend, I was at a livepodcast event, and I met Loser.
Yeah, I met One lady whoattended the church that I'm technically
a member of, because I do online.
Not technically, I just am amember of this church.
I just.
I'm not physically presentthat often.
So people go, you're a memberof this church.
I've never met you before.
And I'm like, well, it'sbecause I'm an online member.
Anyway, I digress.
(26:56):
Met this lady, told her, sheasked about our podcast.
I mentioned, you know, theecumenical work we did.
And she goes, oh, yeah, I grewup ecumenical, but my husband's always
grown up Lutheran.
And I was like, that's really cool.
I felt like the Princess andthe bride moment is like, you keep
using this word.
I don't think it means whatyou think it means.
That's all.
(27:19):
What does it mean?
And here's what it means to me.
I believe each denominationhas this treasure box that they can
bring to the middle.
Ecumenicism is not aboutcommon ground because we can find
common ground in five minutes.
It's about me looking atpeople who are not Catholic and saying,
what gift do they have that wedon't do as well?
(27:39):
What are they doing better?
And I think that's the powerof it.
Ecumenicism should besanctifying to the church and not
some kind of side hobby thatwe're doing.
And that's why I think thework you're doing is important, because
it makes the church holierwhen they're ecumenical.
It's not like some kind of,you know, weekend event for us to
(28:00):
kind of pat each other on theback and placate each other.
It's holy work, it'ssanctifying work, and people are
closer to Jesus because of ecumenicism.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
Thank you for saying that.
I know we've said it before.
We started this podcastbecause we were like, what's something
that's not as contentious?
Because some of the otherstuff that I had done in ministry
before this, then I was like,ah, I'll just do this kind of light
(28:24):
thing, talk about churchunity, and turn it into a several
year thing.
And realize this is incrediblydifficult, actually.
But here we are, doing our best.
Yeah, I'm going to startsaying that I grew up ecumenical,
and that's really funny.
So, our Father Cass, are therequestions that you think our audience
might like to hear from youregarding, like, your church, your
(28:48):
spiritual director, like, howyou make content?
Any of that that you think we missed?
I would just say that I'mavailable as a spiritual director
and a priest to your audienceand that they can reach out to me
and I'm accessible.
I don't.
I relentless, relentlessly tryto connect with people.
Like, if someone friends me onFacebook and there seem to be reasonable
(29:10):
a reason to connect with them,I immediately message them and say,
I'm glad to be connected.
I probably talk to, like,three new people a week.
And, you know, my spiritualdirection practices is open and available
at a sliding scale rate for people.
But also, I don't turn anyone away.
So if people don't have thefunds to compensate me, that doesn't
(29:31):
mean that I tell them to go elsewhere.
So that's what I would say.
I would say that I just wantto declare my availability to people.
Yeah.
Yeah, Right.
So what is.
What is.
He's not super far from us, sohopefully three of us can grab a
beer sometime soon to talkabout connecting.
Be great.
I tend to be sober, but I cangrab the beer and, like, pray over
it and, like, we can have holywater, holy beer.
(29:55):
I don't know.
I.
I can.
I cheat.
I'm not.
It's not like I'm fully,totally here, but I.
I'm.
I'm the priest at a sober bar,and I just feel a solidarity with
my people by being largely sober.
But they've.
They've told me, like, you canbe sober for us, but also, like,
you don't have to be nice.
(30:16):
I like that.
So spiritual direction, whatdoes that entail exactly?
For those who aren't quite familiar?
You meet with a spiritualdirector, and the director kind of
speaks of their relationship with.
With God.
So if you and I were talkingand you said, you know, I'm really
struggling with my faith, Iwould say, potentially, tell me what
(30:38):
faith means to.
So it's kind of like gettingunderneath and underneath and underneath
and underneath, all the waydown to the root of what we believe
and what we're experiencingwith God.
That way, we're not justthrowing around terms like ecumenical.
We're sitting with what theymean to us and those spiritual realities.
(31:00):
So I would.
We would maybe begin in alittle bit of silence.
And then, you know, Joshuamight say, you know, I don't go to
this church.
And I'm really struggling withthe fact that I'm not there present
because the people arepersecuting me because I don't walk
through the door.
And I would say, maybe thatsounds like fear.
(31:20):
Is that fear for you?
Do you fear something?
Do you think God's angry with you?
So I'd ask questions.
Not that that's real for Joshua.
But yeah.
Yeah.
I do not get persecuted by mychurch for the rest.
For anyone listening who wantsto know, it was.
It was hypothetical.
Yeah, for now.
For now.
(31:40):
One day I'll be persecuted.
Not yet.
I will persecute you for not going.
So just.
Just so that I have the experience.
I need that, you know.
Yeah.
It needs to be relatable.
So where should people go tofollow you and to talk to you online?
They can go to my Facebook,which is Cass C A s space V O.
They can go to FatherCostello.net and fill out the information
(32:04):
there.
You know, the.
It'll go to my email.
Yeah.
Those are the best ways tocontact me.
You can contact me on TickTock, which I believe is at Father
Costello.
Is that true?
Okay, I'll say.
Can you.
Pretty sure you can sendmessages on Tick Tock?
Yes.
Lots of things.
There's lots of things you cando on Tick Tock, Joshua.
(32:25):
You just stop neglecting Tick Tock.
Just too old.
People don't know.
I'm actually like 95.
I just look like I'm in my 30s.
Yeah.
I think my grandma has a Tick Tock.
You know, it's funny, a lot ofolder people do have a Tick Tock.
I do.
I know that for some reason Ifeel like it just skips that, like
the middle generations.
(32:46):
It's like, right.
There's a lot of old whitedudes on there.
But I feel like it's like they just.
Younger boomers, older millennials.
We just.
They want to be heard.
We want to be heard.
We have a voice.
Your wife has a Tik Tok.
That's true.
That's how I cheat.
If there's something I reallylike, am slightly interested in,
I just, you know, wait tillshe sees it and kind of like lean
(33:08):
over and look at her phone.
You know, why do I need one?
I could cheat.
Silly.
Timeline cultivation.
I just think that it'sincredible that we haven't done an
episode about slothfulness.
And I just aired my.
My sin that I.
I am too lazy for Tik Tok.
That's incredible.
(33:29):
Anyway, one thing we like todo as we start wrapping up our.
Our episodes, Father Castella.
We like to just ask our guestsif they had to provide a single tangible
action that would helpengender church unity.
Is there anything practicalthat you could suggest our listeners
stop and go do as soon as theyfinish listening to this that's going
to help better engender church unity?
(33:50):
I would say the first thingyou should do is go and spend Five
minutes meditating on the factthat the Holy Spirit has made you
born for unity and not anenemy of unity.
It's human nature to cometogether, not to divide and conquer.
So do that and then findsomeone to talk to that doesn't look
(34:11):
at God the same way that youdo and let it challenge you.
Sit with their words.
So first sit with the realityof the Holy Spirit.
Because Christian unity, likeat Pentecost, which we just had,
Christian unity, is not aperfect moment.
It's a miracle.
It's supernatural.
We can't produce it in and of ourselves.
(34:31):
We have to go to the HolySpirit in us, who is the glue.
The Spirit is the breath thatglues the church together.
And this is who we are.
So don't think that you're.
That you're not made for it.
Know that you are, and then golisten to somebody.
And you're an ecumenicist automatically.
(34:54):
Yeah, right.
So what would change in theworld around us if everyone listened
to you?
We took those five minutes andthen we went and talked to the people
who see God differently than us.
What.
What changes?
I think the first thing thatchanges is that most people believe
that they're not inherentlygood, that they're not made for goodness
and closeness to neighbor.
(35:15):
I think it changes theirperspective of themselves.
And when we change ourperspective of ourselves, we automatically
change our pers.
Our perspective of God.
And when we change ourperspective of God, we automatically
change our perspective of ourselves.
So I think they're changingand revolutionary.
I think they're havinginternal revolutions that I couldn't
(35:36):
even imagine.
A lot is going on.
Right.
So before we wrap up, we liketo do a little segment that we call
our God Moments.
And we just share a momentthat we saw God in recently.
Whether it be a blessing, achallenge, or a moment of worship,
whatever it is, it's justsomething that you saw God in your
life.
And I always make Joshua gofirst to give the rest of us plenty
(35:58):
of time to think about it.
So, Josh, do you have a Godmoment for us this week?
Yes.
Last Sunday, I got a Sunday off.
Usually I have Saturdays offafter work, Sundays.
And instead of going to mychurch, I finally get a Sunday off
and don't go to my church.
It's crazy.
I went to our good friendReverend Justin Coleman's church,
and it was so great.
(36:20):
I got to see Justin.
And for those who don't know,he's just.
He's going through a lot rightnow and just able to give him just
a big bear hug in the middleof his church.
And he didn't expect me to goto the service either.
And also, Justin's like,possibly the world's greatest hugger.
I've heard that.
I've heard that about him.
But I got to hug Justin.
(36:40):
It was great.
I'm gonna have to take offfrom my church and like bail out
on my own people and get a hug.
Yeah.
From Justin.
Yeah, that's his church's newmarketing ploy.
They don't.
They just don't know it yet.
But I got to hug Justin.
Then I saw my best friendspend a large part of the day with
him.
And this is really.
This is gonna get really weird.
I got to hug Pastor Willbecause the podcast event was at
(37:04):
his church.
And Trip Fuller, who gave me abig hug.
And then Will's wife, I sawwho gave me a big hug.
And I usually, I'm not a toucher.
And it was just one of thosethings of like seeing these people
who mean so much to me andlearning to let down my guard enough
to appreciate and embrace isjust feels really meaningful.
And, you know, I was blessedthat I was able to not be as.
(37:29):
I don't know the right word.
Hate hating a physical touch.
As usual that day, I was moreokay with it.
And I think I got a lot from that.
So that was cool.
Good.
One time, Josh and I slept ina one person tent together, side
by side, without touching eachother for the entire night.
Just for context.
Yeah, we never touched somehow.
(37:51):
Okay.
Josh hates touching people.
I started to pray like that.
This podcast about to take aweird turn.
I just wanted everyone to havethat context.
Josh hates.
I believe in holiness eventhough I'm gay.
That's what I was going tostart saying.
But for me, my God moment, mylittle sister.
(38:13):
And this is only really gonnabe meaningful for me.
I know most of our audience isolder than me, and both of you guys,
I think, oh, no, I'm way younger.
But my.
Oh yeah, you're way youngerthan me.
You're 95.
My little sister just turned 24.
That's crazy to me.
And I guess time just doesn't stop.
(38:37):
So it's been.
It's been kind of weird thepast couple of days because my little
sister is now 24 and it'sgonna get her master's degree.
See, in my mind, my littlebrother's 10 and your little sister's
still like 6 or 7.
Yeah, that's how it works.
That's how it works.
Wild.
Yeah.
So that's been pretty strangeto think about the past couple of
(39:00):
days.
Also, she went to the beachwithout me, which is the kindest
thing that she could have done.
I can't stand the beach.
I hate it.
I love the beach.
If I could live on the beach.
That did not go the directionI thought it was.
I thought it was going to belike envy and strife and need for
confessions, but you're like,that's the best thing she could have
done.
No, that's pretty good.
(39:20):
Not be forced to go to thebeach is beautiful.
Meanwhile, I am upset shedidn't invite me to the beach, though.
So let her know.
Well, I'll tell her I love it.
Do you need spiritualdirection for that?
Jealousy, perhaps.
So, Father Cass, do you have aGod moment for us?
I do.
Are you ready?
Absolutely.
(39:40):
I was staying in a hotelrecently because I took a few days
just to sabbatical in a hotel.
And the last day I was there,I got up to go eat breakfast and
there was this homeless guysleeping in the steps.
And I looked at him, I said,bro, are you okay?
Like, you know, I'm, I'm nicebecause I'm a priest, but the people
(40:02):
here might not be as nice to you.
You should probably get upand, and go before somebody like,
has you thrown out of here insome drastic measure.
And I said, but can I get yousomething to eat?
And he said, oh, yeah, that'dbe great.
So I went and I got theselittle like, Debbie cakes, the cream
pie things.
Love that.
And I had this.
I had this self righteousmoment of like, I'm gonna go and
(40:25):
turn the corner and like downto him, because I have food, he doesn't.
I'm gonna do him a favor.
And as I was walking back tothe stairs, the Holy Spirit said
to me, don't you throw that athim, bend down and hand it to him
as if he is a man like you are.
So I got to be brought down bythe conviction of the Holy Spirit
(40:48):
to say, just because you havecharity in your heart and you wanted
to do something nice, doesn'tmean that you can use my love to
undignify a person in the nameof dignity.
So I bent down and I handed itto him.
And it felt like almost likehanding Jesus a little oatmeal cream
(41:08):
pie and realizing Jesus'shumanity was in his humanity and
that this was a person born inthe image of God and that the real
weak person in the moment wasme and not him.
That is my favorite part aboutmy job.
Unless my boss or her boss orhis boss or his boss is listening.
(41:30):
I could feed all the homelesspeople I want.
They're brave enough to come inside.
They're getting something to eat.
But that is a beautiful moment.
I love that.
And if you're listening andyou enjoyed the episode, please consider
sharing with a friend.
Share with an enemy.
Share it with your cousins.
If you don't have cousins,I'll send you the info for my cousins.
(41:53):
Send it to them.
Don't ask for the info to his cousins.
That's an entire book.
200 page.
Just contact.
I have a lot bigger than the cousins.
And, you know, check out themerch on the store.
It's an easy way to support us.
Low effort.
You don't have to wear it.
I mean, it is comfy and it isgood though.
Josh is wearing it currently.
(42:15):
I'm gonna get one of those.
But also order one size up.
It's my advice.
Order one size up.
They're wear small.
If I want to, I will.
Yeah, I'll do what I want.
Yeah, that's fair.
We can't tell him what to do.
Yeah.
I don't believe in predestination.
This isn't the.
Yeah, I'm not Calvinist, butif a Calvinist wants to be on the
show, let us know.
(42:36):
Don't go there, bro.
But yeah, also, if you want tocheck out some of the other shows
on our podcast, I don't thinkany of them are Calvinist.
The closest you can get is Christian.
Ashley, if you want to listento let nothing move you.
He's more conservative.
Still not Calvinist, but he'lltell you about the Bible from a conservative
viewpoint.
If you want a more progressiveviewpoint of the Bible, the Bible
(42:56):
after hours is an option onthe network.
Also Systematic ecology.
TJ and I are both part of thattalking about geek stuff, so it's
always fun.
Mm.
We hope you enjoyed it next week.
Thank you.
Thank you for your time today,Father Cass, and we hope you enjoyed
the show.
Next week, we'll be talkingwith Dr.
Leah Robinson, Pastor WillRose, and Ryan does to discuss the
(43:17):
similarities between sci fistories, apocalypse stories, and
eschatology in the church.
Then we're going to beinterviewing Beth Allison Barr about
her most recent book, becomingthe pastor's Wife, how marriage replaced
ordination as a woman's pathto ministry, and how the idea of
unity has been used to silencemany female voices from speaking
up.
After that, we'll be speakingwith Jonathan Man.
(43:37):
Macny, I believe, is how it'spronounced on Anglican.
An Anglican autism researcherabout his work with faith and those
on the spectrum.
Finally, at the end of seasonone, Francis Chan will be on the
show.
Yeah, he just doesn't know.
So someone does have to deal.
Season one is an infiniteamount of time away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(43:57):
Frank's Chan passes before theend of season one.
We're just gonna expect hisghost to come on eventually.
I just gotta say, I hopeeverybody listens to the Beth Allison
Barr one.
She's one of my favorite people.
Yeah, she's got really good.
First Corinthians 14, 26, 33,and the new American Standard Bible
reads, what is the outcome then?
Brothers and sisters, when youassemble, each one has a psalm, has
a teaching, has a revelation,has a tongue, has an interpretation.
All things are to be done for edification.
If anyone speaks in a tongue,it must be by two or at the most,
(00:45):
three in each, one in turn,and one is to interpret.
But if there is nointerpreter, he is to keep silent
in the church and have himspeak to himself and to God.
Have two or three prophetsspeak and have the others pass judgment.
But if a revelation is made toanother who is seated, then the first
one is to keep silent.
For you can all prophesy oneby one, so that all may learn and
(01:05):
all may be exhorted.
And the spirits of theprophets are subject to prophets.
For God is not a God ofconfusion, but of peace.
In this pericope of scripture, St.
Paul just finished discussingthe gifts of the Spirit, the importance
of love above any of thegifts, and here he's in the middle
of describing how we shouldorder the exercise of our spiritual
gifts during the church service.
(01:27):
Father Costello, how can thismessage for order in our churches
help us today?
Well, first, I think that thefirst pivot that we have to make
is that this is talking aboutan intuitive love and not an institutional
movement.
This isn't natural.
This is something spiritual.
And it's a spiritual exercise,which I think causes a deeper commitment
(01:51):
to the interior life that weall possess.
Because when you look at that,it's talking about love in a much
more descriptive way thansometimes we can be used to, because
love is spoken a lot about inmany different churches.
But it can be kind ofambiguous, and it talks about beautiful
ways to do that.
The thing that comes to meright now is where it says that the
(02:14):
prophets are subject to one another.
And that's what we don't wantto believe in our culture and in
the west especially, is thatwe're subject to one another in love,
because that's not it.
That's not an authoritarian subject.
It's love subjecting us to oneanother because we're all made and
(02:34):
shaped in the image of God.
So I would tell people, stickto the intuitive side of that scripture,
but also lean into the partwhere it says we're subject to one
another in love and not in anauthoritarian way.
But the prophets are subjectto one another because it's loving
to submit to the unity of thechurch in that manner.
(03:00):
Yeah.
Amen.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to the whole church.
Podcast, Possibly yourfavorite church unity podcast.
It's cool.
If it's not though, we reallydon't mind.
I am really excited fortoday's episode.
We are going to be just kindof introducing, getting you guys
(03:22):
to know a new friend of ours,Father Costello, who he grew up as
a Pentecostal.
He is now an independentCatholic priest and a spiritual director.
Also a TikTok influencer.
Interesting all around greatguy that you guys should get to know
because we're going to bedoing an episode here in August to
celebrate the first 100 daysof folk John XIV.
(03:43):
Maybe celebrate is the wrong word.
Reflect on the first hundred days.
We'll see.
We'll see if it's celebratedor not.
When we get there.
Hopefully celebrate.
Yeah, hopefully it'll be a celebration.
Excited for this.
You know, we're just buildingup the.
The whole church MCU model.
The wcu.
Yeah.
And of course at the headisn't Kevin Feige, but the one whom
(04:04):
Kevin Feige hopes to modelhimself after, the one and only tj.
Toby Swan Blackwell.
How's it going?
Good, thanks.
And like Josh said, we're herewith Father Costello.
He is grown up Pentecostal,which we can all relate to, naturally.
Everyone who's hearing thisnow, congratulations, you grew up
Pentecostal, now you're welcome.
(04:24):
They just didn't know.
Currently an independentCatholic priest and a spiritual director
is a TikTok influencer.
And that's something that westruggle with is short form content.
I'll say almost struggle isthe right word.
Simply don't do TikTokIncapable of just.
Short form in general.
Mm.
(04:44):
Yeah.
I mean, that's not something weird.
If I thought we were capableof it, I might be willing to do an
Instagram reel.
Right?
But I'm not.
I don't think.
I don't think you are.
I'm too long winded.
Yeah, yeah.
But if you're listening tothis, you should check out the Onazal
Podcast network website.
The link is below for showslike ours.
And you can also pay tosubscribe on Apple Podcasts to support
(05:07):
us.
That way you get some extracontent from all the shows in the
network, including this one.
So check us out there, rateus, interview us while you're over
there or wherever you listento your podcasts.
The ratings go a long way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And nothing goes a long wayfor church unity.
It's going to be silliness.
It's holy sacrament herebecause you can't be in disarray
(05:28):
when you're being as Silly asI like to be.
Today we have a special silly question.
TJ and I will answer first.
Give our father a little bitof time to think about it.
How would the cars in Carsplay ping pong?
I actually want TJ to answer first.
Too much pressure for me.
Yeah.
Okay.
So there's a sport called Techball.
Not sure if you're aware of that.
(05:49):
Nope, it's ping pong, but thetable's much shorter because it's
played with your feet.
And a soccer ball.
So it'd be sort of like that.
I think in the Cars world, itwould just be a short ping pong table
and they would do as they doin the Cars universe and just have
a comically sized ping pongpaddle and just play it like a regular
(06:10):
table and hold it just kind offloating next to their wheel because
that's how they do things in there.
The images that come up on aGoogle tech ball are incredible.
Yeah, it's T, E, Q, B, A, L, L.
If someone's trying to lookfor it.
Yeah.
Which you should.
Super awesome to watch.
This is now all I want to seein life.
(06:30):
But you should also answer the question.
This looks like the mostintense combination of soccer and
ping pong ever.
I don't know why I feel likeI'm gonna go opposite TJ here.
I think they have a massiveping pong table with a.
With a racetrack around it.
And two of them are just likeracing back and forth, you know,
on different sides of the track.
(06:51):
That's what I see it as, likejust all high speed craziness.
Yeah, that's my thought process.
But yeah.
Fellow casts, where you at, man?
How do you think the cars andcars are playing ping pong?
Irregardless, it would behands free.
That's all I have.
Hands free.
That's the.
That's the answer.
They're using Bluetooth battles.
Their approach is between themand God.
(07:13):
But it's gonna be hands.
Nothing to do with me.
Yeah, that's fair.
That's a good answer.
Question.
So before we get into the maintopic, one thing that we noticed
that helps engender Christianunity is to listen to one another's
story.
So would you mind sharing withus some of your story and how you've
(07:33):
come to the place you're atnow with your faith?
I would say that the mostcommon thing that I say to people
is that I feel like I'm afulfilled Pentecostal by coming to
the ancient church and intothe sacraments.
I mean, you know, we believethat when I consecrate the Eucharist,
that the Spirit comes down inwhat we call the epiclesis and makes
(07:56):
the bread and wine somehow,some way, mysteriously, into the
body, blood, soul, anddivinity of Jesus.
I don't think it's easy toescape a charismatic reality if you
believe that there's atransformation of the elements.
So I would say that myPentecostal path led me to, in many
(08:17):
ways, the place that I am now,and that I'm more charismatic and
more Pentecostal, being aCatholic priest, than.
Than I was even when I was inthose spaces, because they're hungering
for something, you know?
And when I was Pentecostal,always felt like we had something
special, but we also were incomplete.
And I think Sacramentologybrings people to a complete experience
(08:42):
with the Holy Spirit becauseit brings the movement of the Spirit
into our bodies and into ourlives in a tangible and tactile way.
I like that.
I like that answer.
Yeah, that's very nice.
So was it like adeconstruction moment or like a specific
thing that you question thatmade you want to change, or was it
(09:02):
just once you started seeinghow the sacraments was done that
you were like, I need to shiftgears here in my denomination?
Yeah, I don't think my.
I don't think sacrament.
The Sacramento part was my deconstruction.
I mean, that kind of camelater, because when I was 18, that's
when I started attending Mass.
And it was until I was.
It wasn't until I was 22 thatI started going to the Episcopal
(09:25):
Church and really encountering deconstruction.
But so I would say maybe theanswer is, is that the Sacramentology
was my construction phase.
And then later on, likeliberation and to, like, queer theology
and some of the greatdeconstructionists, like Brian McLaren
and Brad Jursack and thosekind of people came later.
(09:48):
Yeah, but sacrament came first.
Sacrament first.
Cool, cool, cool, cool.
All right.
Well, so one thing I just wantto get off the bat, because I'm sure
it's probably confusing to alot of people.
Could you maybe explain forour listeners the difference between
an independent Catholic Churchand then the Roman Catholic Church,
and then what relationshipdoes your church still have with
(10:10):
the Roman Catholic Church?
Well, the first is how we structure.
Our ecclesiology and our authority.
We don't have a pope.
That's the most digestible wayto look at it.
Most of our communities arerun by groups of bishops who are
forming consensus rather thanthe capability for one person to
(10:33):
come to infallible Conclusions.
We don't have a, we don't havea figurehead or a authority figure
in the form of the papacy.
We're not under the authorityof Pope Leo, we were not under the
authority of Pope Francis.
And the way that that was bornwas that the Reformation was so hot
(10:58):
in the Netherlands that therebegan to be this movement coming
forth of reform Catholicism tosome degree different than the Reformation
of like Luther and Calvin, buta reshaping and an evolution of Catholicism
that challenged the doctrineof papal infallibility and the dogmatic
declaration of the Immaculate Conception.
(11:20):
And you know, so we're notunder the Pope.
We come to conclusions byconsensus, through synods of bishops
and we reject papalinfallibility in the doctrine of
the Immaculate except theImmaculate Conception to some degree.
Some old Catholics do believein the Immaculate Conception, but
(11:41):
it's not a non negotiable.
That's interesting.
By the Immaculate Conception,do you mean the Immaculate Conception
of Mary or also of Jesus?
So in regards to the, what theImmaculate Conception is, the basic
way to describe the ImmaculateConception is, is that if Jesus is
the Savior of the world andhe's saving us from a virus, Mary
(12:02):
was preserved from that virusfrom the beginning.
Jesus still had to save her.
But there's this sense thatshe was preserved from the mark of
original sin in the RomanChurch because Jesus took away that
virus from the beginningrather than.
So at her conception.
The whole sin situation wastaken care of.
(12:23):
And I won't say whether Ibelieve that or not, but that's the,
of Rome.
And that was dogmatized, mademajor doctrine, made major teaching
in Rome.
And the original oldCatholics, the original independent
Catholics, had an issue with that.
Okay, I can understand howthat makes a lot more sense than
(12:44):
my initial thought, which wasJesus being, you know, an immaculate
concept.
Right.
Okay.
I can see why someone wouldhave a problem with that though.
Yeah, that's interesting.
A lot of people kind ofconflate the Virgin birth and the
Immaculate Conception.
Yeah.
So there is one thing we liketo do that helps our audience and
(13:06):
ourselves get to know you better.
And we call it our speed round segment.
And we're going to ask you aseries of questions about what you
believe and ask that you tryto answer each and a single question.
You can just say you want toskip it, that's fine.
We're not allowed to ask youany follow up questions.
And there's just, what is it?
Nine, ten questions.
So one sentence, I'm ready oryou can skip it, either one is fine.
(13:30):
You ready?
All right.
I'm ready.
Who or what is God?
I would say that God is theone thing that just is.
He was not created.
All right.
What is salvation?
Salvation is when the humansoul, by the invitation of God, it's
drawn into a unity with God.
What is the significance ofbaptism and the Eucharist?
(13:52):
Baptism brings us into thefamily of God in the sense that it
is the ordinary means of grace.
It doesn't mean there aren'tother ways, but it's the way that
God instituted through thechurch to bring people into the family
of God.
And the Eucharist is.
Girl.
Oh, my God.
How can you.
How can you answer that in one.
(14:12):
One question?
But I would say that inregards to relating it to the salvation
question, the Eucharist is oneof the ways that we consume God to
become God.
All right.
What authority does scripture have?
Wow.
The authority that Scripturehas in the church primarily is a
(14:32):
centerpiece of an ongoingconversation about God within the
church.
That's, I think, the most.
That's the authority that Ican give it because it's something
that I wrestle with a lot.
What should the Bible be tothe church?
What authority does tradition have?
I think it anchors us in themost important things about our faith.
(14:53):
It doesn't necessarily havethe final word all the way to the
end and fill in all thedetails, but tradition is kind of
like the skeletal model of ahome, but yet you don't necessarily
have the couch in there.
When you have the skeleton ofhome, you don't necessarily have
the sink built yet, but itgives us a living and breathing structure
(15:15):
that we ought not stray from.
All right.
Do you believe in acontinuation of the gifts of the
spirit?
100%.
I can't see a church thatdoesn't have the continuation of
the gifts.
The only way for the church tocease to have the gifts is for the
church to cease to have theHoly Spirit.
Not only do I believe in thecontinuation of the gifts, I believe
it's impossible for anycommunity to not experience them.
(15:38):
That even means, like in JohnMacArthur's church, where he completely
denies them, the Spirit shows up.
That's the way it works.
If Jesus is mentioned, theHoly Spirit's going to show up charismatically.
It's.
It's.
It's kind of like gravity.
You can't really deny it.
You can say all day long thatgravity is not true, but I'm sitting
in this chair right nowbecause it's true.
(16:01):
So if so, would you say theinitial evidence of that is speaking
in tongues?
No.
I struggle with that question,because I feel like that the.
That kind of pins the.
The baptism of the Holy Spiritinto one linear moment, kind of like
this moment in time.
I believe that the timelessnature of the Spirit, that there
are many baptisms in the HolySpirit and there are many evidences
(16:23):
of that.
I mean, the Spirit can baptizeus to love our neighbor more deeply.
The Spirit can baptize us tospeak in tongues.
It can baptize us to be drawntoward the Eucharist.
So I.
I won't.
I won't pin the Spirit'sbaptism down to a singular moment.
All right.
Can God change?
God is suffering with us.
God is experiencing us everymoment of our life because he lives
(16:47):
in us.
Therefore, if somethingchanges in us, God experiences a
change.
I don't think his essence andnature changes, but I think because
he experiences who we areconstantly, that his experience is
ever changing in that regard.
What do you love about the Bible?
What do I love about the Bible?
Yeah, I like that it looksmore like us than we would kind of
(17:10):
want it to.
It's imperfect.
It has bizarre sides to it.
It has glorious sides to it.
And I think it looks more likethe human soul than we could imagine.
And it reveals God.
So it reveals God in us.
It reveals the power and theperfection of God, but it reveals
the fragility of humanity.
And I think that's prettybadass, in my opinion.
(17:31):
Yeah, I think we want theBible to fall out of the sky, but
it emerges from humanity, andI think we're threatened by that.
And I think it's beautifulthat it came from humans.
I think that makes it moreholy in an incarnational sense.
It's a very poetic way to lookat the Bible.
I know some people who wouldlove that.
So what do you love about the Church?
(17:54):
I think it's similar that it'salways bad and it's always good.
And when people get reallyhigh on the positivity of the church,
we can see its shadow and itcan be kind of earthy and approachable.
But when people look at itscandal, the reaction ought not be
to run away, but to lean in toit, because there's also power and.
(18:18):
And the presence of God there.
So I like that the church hasa shadow and a shining because I
think that makes it real.
So which, if any, of the sevensacraments do you follow?
All seven and all the onesthat we can't label.
I think that life issacramental, but I believe that the
major seven are a goodcategorical organization for the
(18:43):
main ones, but I won't limitthose seven.
I think that there's, there'sa lot of sacramental nature to the
world that we, we don't know about.
All right, well, congratulations.
You've completed your firstwhole church speed round.
But we made it.
It can be hard, it can be difficult.
We made it, we made it.
(19:04):
Well, now the speed round'sover, I can ask follow up questions.
Cheating.
But.
You were talking about thesacraments and how life can be sacramental.
A lot of people thinksacrament as like, these are some
of the nice rituals that ourchurch does.
I think it's like similar tojust ritual.
Could you maybe expound alittle bit on what you mean by sacrament
(19:26):
and why you think that lifecan be sacramental?
I think we first have to talkabout the choice of God before we
talk about the sacraments andthat is that one of the number one
rules in the sense of normalaspects of my theology is that God
could have done everything,everything without us, but he chooses
to do things with us.
(19:47):
And in that sense, I think theattitude of God in the sacraments
is to come to us and allow usto participate in his life and to
bring his life to the world inphysical means along with spiritual
realities, rather than pushingus away and saying, I'm God, I have
all authority, I have allpower, all the glory belongs to me.
(20:10):
He says those things are true,but also you get to participate in
that.
So I think that's what makesthe sacrament so powerful, is that
God's inviting us into doinglife with him, to co creating life
with him when he didn't haveto do that.
That was a choice of radicallove on his part.
(20:31):
So when we come to asacrament, it's just as much about
the fact that human beings areconduits of his power as it is them
being some kind of ancient ritual.
Yeah, I like that.
So one thing just shift gearsa little bit.
You know, we talked to someabout your ministry as a priest,
(20:52):
but a huge part of yourministry right now also has to do
with being a spiritualdirector and a TikTok influencer.
So I was wondering if youcould mind, if you would mind maybe
explaining some of what you doas a spiritual director and what
you do as a TikTok influencerand what the work you do there.
Part of my philosophy ofministry is this ministry is not
(21:12):
so much about bringing God topeople, it's about recognizing God
in people.
It's arrogant for me tobelieve that God is not already moving
in the lives of the peoplethat Come to me.
So I'm not here to like takeGod and put it on like a clean slate.
I'm here to say God is movinghere, here and here.
And also I can invite them tothings that they don't already have.
(21:34):
But my beginning place isdiscovery and not deposit into their
life and in spiritual direction.
Being able to notice by thespirit, but also being a trained
spiritual director, I sit withpeople for an hour and I'm able to
notice the move of God intheir life and ask questions and
(21:54):
help them turn in, turn in totheir interior life and tune into
God within them so that theymight be more sensitive to the movement
of God in their life.
Because God is moving in their life.
There's not a human alive thatGod is not actively moving in and
through even the worst of us.
That's beautiful.
(22:15):
Tick tock.
I don't even know.
I didn't know I was a ticktock influencer until you told me.
So I just, I think peopledeserve an easier spirituality.
I don't think it should be all hard.
And I think if somebody popson my TikTok and there's a, like
a moment of the power of Godin their day just because they saw
(22:38):
me talk about something orthey saw a quote I put on, let it
be made known that I'm tryingto make the spiritual life easier
and not harder for people.
And that's one of thebeautiful things that social media
has done for spirituality isit's provided like a way for some
people to just be able to havelike God pop into their day through
(22:59):
a short, a short video.
And I think a lot of churchleaders don't think that's enough.
But in the busy and chaoticlives that we have, it's important
to give people the grace to,maybe they only have 10 or 20 minutes
to actively dwell on God'snature and actively meditate on that.
And I'm going to give that to them.
(23:21):
I'm going to give them theeasier path.
That's what it means to be a priest.
Making spirituality moreaccessible to people and not more
difficult.
Right.
Everyone's super busy these days.
If you've got eight seconds ofJesus in your day, that's better
than zero seconds.
So true.
Exactly true.
You gotta get what you can.
(23:42):
But our podcast is primarilyfocused on Christian unity.
So other than yourrelationship with, you know that
your congregation has withother Catholic and the Roman Catholic
churches, are there any otherecumenical efforts or relationships
that your church maintains?
I think we have a lack ofluxury in the independent movement.
(24:04):
To be so Catholic that we justkind of bar people.
There's no one in my churchwho was raised Catholic, and some
of them are kind of, like, notreally all the way there, but they
show up and they receive thesacraments from us, and they receive
the teachings.
But I think that independentCatholicism is inherently catholic
(24:25):
as well as ecumenical.
So I think that my whole lifeis ecumenical.
I mean, much of the mainstreamRoman Church would reject me, so
I tend to hang out with, like,mainstream progressive Protestants.
And I just.
This Catholic door is open topeople, and I don't turn people away.
(24:46):
I'm always trying to convertpeople to an aspect of my faith and
not necessarily my whole faith.
So if I can get them prayingthe rosary or something, I'm happy.
But, you know, I don't live in this.
In a Catholic echo chamber.
Maybe not because I'm so piousand holy, but because I don't really
have the luxury of living inthis kind of narrow world.
(25:08):
It's just not possible in theindependent movement.
And I consider that to be a gift.
All right, so is it, like,device, like, when you meet other
Catholics and they find outyou're independent, Is that, like,
a point of contention for them?
It depends on who it is.
I mean, I've been every.
I've had everything but frombeing threatened with death to being
(25:29):
told that I'm a heretic andblasphemous and an enemy of the mother
Church, all the way to peoplenot understanding why I'm not respected
as a priest more.
And I just have to kind of.
I kind of have to, like, plowmy little narrow part of the field
and be in my part of the bodyof Christ and kind of say, I'm going
(25:50):
to minister to the people thatGod's called me to minister to and
kind of say, screw that noisewith those people, because my job
is to fill myself with theenergy for my ministry and not focus
on their criticism.
Not that I don't want to, butsimply because when Jesus said, go
into all the world and makedisciples, baptize them in the name
(26:12):
of the Father, Son, and HolySpirit, I have to prioritize that.
And if I'm responding tocritics, I'm doing less discipling
of people.
I'm not being a conduit of thesacramental life.
And I would just say if you.
If people can ignore thecritics and do the ministry.
Yeah, yeah.
All right, so quick sidebar,because I found this amusing.
(26:35):
Last weekend, I was at a livepodcast event, and I met Loser.
Yeah, I met One lady whoattended the church that I'm technically
a member of, because I do online.
Not technically, I just am amember of this church.
I just.
I'm not physically presentthat often.
So people go, you're a memberof this church.
I've never met you before.
And I'm like, well, it'sbecause I'm an online member.
Anyway, I digress.
(26:56):
Met this lady, told her, sheasked about our podcast.
I mentioned, you know, theecumenical work we did.
And she goes, oh, yeah, I grewup ecumenical, but my husband's always
grown up Lutheran.
And I was like, that's really cool.
I felt like the Princess andthe bride moment is like, you keep
using this word.
I don't think it means whatyou think it means.
That's all.
(27:19):
What does it mean?
And here's what it means to me.
I believe each denominationhas this treasure box that they can
bring to the middle.
Ecumenicism is not aboutcommon ground because we can find
common ground in five minutes.
It's about me looking atpeople who are not Catholic and saying,
what gift do they have that wedon't do as well?
(27:39):
What are they doing better?
And I think that's the powerof it.
Ecumenicism should besanctifying to the church and not
some kind of side hobby thatwe're doing.
And that's why I think thework you're doing is important, because
it makes the church holierwhen they're ecumenical.
It's not like some kind of,you know, weekend event for us to
(28:00):
kind of pat each other on theback and placate each other.
It's holy work, it'ssanctifying work, and people are
closer to Jesus because of ecumenicism.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
Thank you for saying that.
I know we've said it before.
We started this podcastbecause we were like, what's something
that's not as contentious?
Because some of the otherstuff that I had done in ministry
before this, then I was like,ah, I'll just do this kind of light
(28:24):
thing, talk about churchunity, and turn it into a several
year thing.
And realize this is incrediblydifficult, actually.
But here we are, doing our best.
Yeah, I'm going to startsaying that I grew up ecumenical,
and that's really funny.
So, our Father Cass, are therequestions that you think our audience
might like to hear from youregarding, like, your church, your
(28:48):
spiritual director, like, howyou make content?
Any of that that you think we missed?
I would just say that I'mavailable as a spiritual director
and a priest to your audienceand that they can reach out to me
and I'm accessible.
I don't.
I relentless, relentlessly tryto connect with people.
Like, if someone friends me onFacebook and there seem to be reasonable
(29:10):
a reason to connect with them,I immediately message them and say,
I'm glad to be connected.
I probably talk to, like,three new people a week.
And, you know, my spiritualdirection practices is open and available
at a sliding scale rate for people.
But also, I don't turn anyone away.
So if people don't have thefunds to compensate me, that doesn't
(29:31):
mean that I tell them to go elsewhere.
So that's what I would say.
I would say that I just wantto declare my availability to people.
Yeah.
Yeah, Right.
So what is.
What is.
He's not super far from us, sohopefully three of us can grab a
beer sometime soon to talkabout connecting.
Be great.
I tend to be sober, but I cangrab the beer and, like, pray over
it and, like, we can have holywater, holy beer.
(29:55):
I don't know.
I.
I can.
I cheat.
I'm not.
It's not like I'm fully,totally here, but I.
I'm.
I'm the priest at a sober bar,and I just feel a solidarity with
my people by being largely sober.
But they've.
They've told me, like, you canbe sober for us, but also, like,
you don't have to be nice.
(30:16):
I like that.
So spiritual direction, whatdoes that entail exactly?
For those who aren't quite familiar?
You meet with a spiritualdirector, and the director kind of
speaks of their relationship with.
With God.
So if you and I were talkingand you said, you know, I'm really
struggling with my faith, Iwould say, potentially, tell me what
(30:38):
faith means to.
So it's kind of like gettingunderneath and underneath and underneath
and underneath, all the waydown to the root of what we believe
and what we're experiencingwith God.
That way, we're not justthrowing around terms like ecumenical.
We're sitting with what theymean to us and those spiritual realities.
(31:00):
So I would.
We would maybe begin in alittle bit of silence.
And then, you know, Joshuamight say, you know, I don't go to
this church.
And I'm really struggling withthe fact that I'm not there present
because the people arepersecuting me because I don't walk
through the door.
And I would say, maybe thatsounds like fear.
(31:20):
Is that fear for you?
Do you fear something?
Do you think God's angry with you?
So I'd ask questions.
Not that that's real for Joshua.
But yeah.
Yeah.
I do not get persecuted by mychurch for the rest.
For anyone listening who wantsto know, it was.
It was hypothetical.
Yeah, for now.
For now.
(31:40):
One day I'll be persecuted.
Not yet.
I will persecute you for not going.
So just.
Just so that I have the experience.
I need that, you know.
Yeah.
It needs to be relatable.
So where should people go tofollow you and to talk to you online?
They can go to my Facebook,which is Cass C A s space V O.
They can go to FatherCostello.net and fill out the information
(32:04):
there.
You know, the.
It'll go to my email.
Yeah.
Those are the best ways tocontact me.
You can contact me on TickTock, which I believe is at Father
Costello.
Is that true?
Okay, I'll say.
Can you.
Pretty sure you can sendmessages on Tick Tock?
Yes.
Lots of things.
There's lots of things you cando on Tick Tock, Joshua.
(32:25):
You just stop neglecting Tick Tock.
Just too old.
People don't know.
I'm actually like 95.
I just look like I'm in my 30s.
Yeah.
I think my grandma has a Tick Tock.
You know, it's funny, a lot ofolder people do have a Tick Tock.
I do.
I know that for some reason Ifeel like it just skips that, like
the middle generations.
(32:46):
It's like, right.
There's a lot of old whitedudes on there.
But I feel like it's like they just.
Younger boomers, older millennials.
We just.
They want to be heard.
We want to be heard.
We have a voice.
Your wife has a Tik Tok.
That's true.
That's how I cheat.
If there's something I reallylike, am slightly interested in,
I just, you know, wait tillshe sees it and kind of like lean
(33:08):
over and look at her phone.
You know, why do I need one?
I could cheat.
Silly.
Timeline cultivation.
I just think that it'sincredible that we haven't done an
episode about slothfulness.
And I just aired my.
My sin that I.
I am too lazy for Tik Tok.
That's incredible.
(33:29):
Anyway, one thing we like todo as we start wrapping up our.
Our episodes, Father Castella.
We like to just ask our guestsif they had to provide a single tangible
action that would helpengender church unity.
Is there anything practicalthat you could suggest our listeners
stop and go do as soon as theyfinish listening to this that's going
to help better engender church unity?
(33:50):
I would say the first thingyou should do is go and spend Five
minutes meditating on the factthat the Holy Spirit has made you
born for unity and not anenemy of unity.
It's human nature to cometogether, not to divide and conquer.
So do that and then findsomeone to talk to that doesn't look
(34:11):
at God the same way that youdo and let it challenge you.
Sit with their words.
So first sit with the realityof the Holy Spirit.
Because Christian unity, likeat Pentecost, which we just had,
Christian unity, is not aperfect moment.
It's a miracle.
It's supernatural.
We can't produce it in and of ourselves.
(34:31):
We have to go to the HolySpirit in us, who is the glue.
The Spirit is the breath thatglues the church together.
And this is who we are.
So don't think that you're.
That you're not made for it.
Know that you are, and then golisten to somebody.
And you're an ecumenicist automatically.
(34:54):
Yeah, right.
So what would change in theworld around us if everyone listened
to you?
We took those five minutes andthen we went and talked to the people
who see God differently than us.
What.
What changes?
I think the first thing thatchanges is that most people believe
that they're not inherentlygood, that they're not made for goodness
and closeness to neighbor.
(35:15):
I think it changes theirperspective of themselves.
And when we change ourperspective of ourselves, we automatically
change our pers.
Our perspective of God.
And when we change ourperspective of God, we automatically
change our perspective of ourselves.
So I think they're changingand revolutionary.
I think they're havinginternal revolutions that I couldn't
(35:36):
even imagine.
A lot is going on.
Right.
So before we wrap up, we liketo do a little segment that we call
our God Moments.
And we just share a momentthat we saw God in recently.
Whether it be a blessing, achallenge, or a moment of worship,
whatever it is, it's justsomething that you saw God in your
life.
And I always make Joshua gofirst to give the rest of us plenty
(35:58):
of time to think about it.
So, Josh, do you have a Godmoment for us this week?
Yes.
Last Sunday, I got a Sunday off.
Usually I have Saturdays offafter work, Sundays.
And instead of going to mychurch, I finally get a Sunday off
and don't go to my church.
It's crazy.
I went to our good friendReverend Justin Coleman's church,
and it was so great.
(36:20):
I got to see Justin.
And for those who don't know,he's just.
He's going through a lot rightnow and just able to give him just
a big bear hug in the middleof his church.
And he didn't expect me to goto the service either.
And also, Justin's like,possibly the world's greatest hugger.
I've heard that.
I've heard that about him.
But I got to hug Justin.
(36:40):
It was great.
I'm gonna have to take offfrom my church and like bail out
on my own people and get a hug.
Yeah.
From Justin.
Yeah, that's his church's newmarketing ploy.
They don't.
They just don't know it yet.
But I got to hug Justin.
Then I saw my best friendspend a large part of the day with
him.
And this is really.
This is gonna get really weird.
I got to hug Pastor Willbecause the podcast event was at
(37:04):
his church.
And Trip Fuller, who gave me abig hug.
And then Will's wife, I sawwho gave me a big hug.
And I usually, I'm not a toucher.
And it was just one of thosethings of like seeing these people
who mean so much to me andlearning to let down my guard enough
to appreciate and embrace isjust feels really meaningful.
And, you know, I was blessedthat I was able to not be as.
(37:29):
I don't know the right word.
Hate hating a physical touch.
As usual that day, I was moreokay with it.
And I think I got a lot from that.
So that was cool.
Good.
One time, Josh and I slept ina one person tent together, side
by side, without touching eachother for the entire night.
Just for context.
Yeah, we never touched somehow.
(37:51):
Okay.
Josh hates touching people.
I started to pray like that.
This podcast about to take aweird turn.
I just wanted everyone to havethat context.
Josh hates.
I believe in holiness eventhough I'm gay.
That's what I was going tostart saying.
But for me, my God moment, mylittle sister.
(38:13):
And this is only really gonnabe meaningful for me.
I know most of our audience isolder than me, and both of you guys,
I think, oh, no, I'm way younger.
But my.
Oh yeah, you're way youngerthan me.
You're 95.
My little sister just turned 24.
That's crazy to me.
And I guess time just doesn't stop.
(38:37):
So it's been.
It's been kind of weird thepast couple of days because my little
sister is now 24 and it'sgonna get her master's degree.
See, in my mind, my littlebrother's 10 and your little sister's
still like 6 or 7.
Yeah, that's how it works.
That's how it works.
Wild.
Yeah.
So that's been pretty strangeto think about the past couple of
(39:00):
days.
Also, she went to the beachwithout me, which is the kindest
thing that she could have done.
I can't stand the beach.
I hate it.
I love the beach.
If I could live on the beach.
That did not go the directionI thought it was.
I thought it was going to belike envy and strife and need for
confessions, but you're like,that's the best thing she could have
done.
No, that's pretty good.
(39:20):
Not be forced to go to thebeach is beautiful.
Meanwhile, I am upset shedidn't invite me to the beach, though.
So let her know.
Well, I'll tell her I love it.
Do you need spiritualdirection for that?
Jealousy, perhaps.
So, Father Cass, do you have aGod moment for us?
I do.
Are you ready?
Absolutely.
(39:40):
I was staying in a hotelrecently because I took a few days
just to sabbatical in a hotel.
And the last day I was there,I got up to go eat breakfast and
there was this homeless guysleeping in the steps.
And I looked at him, I said,bro, are you okay?
Like, you know, I'm, I'm nicebecause I'm a priest, but the people
(40:02):
here might not be as nice to you.
You should probably get upand, and go before somebody like,
has you thrown out of here insome drastic measure.
And I said, but can I get yousomething to eat?
And he said, oh, yeah, that'dbe great.
So I went and I got theselittle like, Debbie cakes, the cream
pie things.
Love that.
And I had this.
I had this self righteousmoment of like, I'm gonna go and
(40:25):
turn the corner and like downto him, because I have food, he doesn't.
I'm gonna do him a favor.
And as I was walking back tothe stairs, the Holy Spirit said
to me, don't you throw that athim, bend down and hand it to him
as if he is a man like you are.
So I got to be brought down bythe conviction of the Holy Spirit
(40:48):
to say, just because you havecharity in your heart and you wanted
to do something nice, doesn'tmean that you can use my love to
undignify a person in the nameof dignity.
So I bent down and I handed itto him.
And it felt like almost likehanding Jesus a little oatmeal cream
(41:08):
pie and realizing Jesus'shumanity was in his humanity and
that this was a person born inthe image of God and that the real
weak person in the moment wasme and not him.
That is my favorite part aboutmy job.
Unless my boss or her boss orhis boss or his boss is listening.
(41:30):
I could feed all the homelesspeople I want.
They're brave enough to come inside.
They're getting something to eat.
But that is a beautiful moment.
I love that.
And if you're listening andyou enjoyed the episode, please consider
sharing with a friend.
Share with an enemy.
Share it with your cousins.
If you don't have cousins,I'll send you the info for my cousins.
(41:53):
Send it to them.
Don't ask for the info to his cousins.
That's an entire book.
200 page.
Just contact.
I have a lot bigger than the cousins.
And, you know, check out themerch on the store.
It's an easy way to support us.
Low effort.
You don't have to wear it.
I mean, it is comfy and it isgood though.
Josh is wearing it currently.
(42:15):
I'm gonna get one of those.
But also order one size up.
It's my advice.
Order one size up.
They're wear small.
If I want to, I will.
Yeah, I'll do what I want.
Yeah, that's fair.
We can't tell him what to do.
Yeah.
I don't believe in predestination.
This isn't the.
Yeah, I'm not Calvinist, butif a Calvinist wants to be on the
show, let us know.
(42:36):
Don't go there, bro.
But yeah, also, if you want tocheck out some of the other shows
on our podcast, I don't thinkany of them are Calvinist.
The closest you can get is Christian.
Ashley, if you want to listento let nothing move you.
He's more conservative.
Still not Calvinist, but he'lltell you about the Bible from a conservative
viewpoint.
If you want a more progressiveviewpoint of the Bible, the Bible
(42:56):
after hours is an option onthe network.
Also Systematic ecology.
TJ and I are both part of thattalking about geek stuff, so it's
always fun.
Mm.
We hope you enjoyed it next week.
Thank you.
Thank you for your time today,Father Cass, and we hope you enjoyed
the show.
Next week, we'll be talkingwith Dr.
Leah Robinson, Pastor WillRose, and Ryan does to discuss the
(43:17):
similarities between sci fistories, apocalypse stories, and
eschatology in the church.
Then we're going to beinterviewing Beth Allison Barr about
her most recent book, becomingthe pastor's Wife, how marriage replaced
ordination as a woman's pathto ministry, and how the idea of
unity has been used to silencemany female voices from speaking
up.
After that, we'll be speakingwith Jonathan Man.
(43:37):
Macny, I believe, is how it'spronounced on Anglican.
An Anglican autism researcherabout his work with faith and those
on the spectrum.
Finally, at the end of seasonone, Francis Chan will be on the
show.
Yeah, he just doesn't know.
So someone does have to deal.
Season one is an infiniteamount of time away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(43:57):
Frank's Chan passes before theend of season one.
We're just gonna expect hisghost to come on eventually.
I just gotta say, I hopeeverybody listens to the Beth Allison
Barr one.
She's one of my favorite people.
Yeah, she's got really good.
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