Elves vs. Dwarves: Finding the Good in the Unlikely Rivalry - Systematic Geekology

The prevailing theme of polarization within fandoms is vividly illustrated in our discourse on the perennial conflict between elves and dwarves. As I engage with esteemed Tolkien scholar and former host of our show, Nick Polk, we delve into the intricate nuances of this rivalry, which transcends mere animosity and reveals deeper societal reflections. Throughout our exploration, we uncover the historical context that underscores the dynamics between these two races, illuminating how their contrasting attributes embody broader themes of identity and collaboration. In a world rife with division, our dialogue seeks to extract the virtues inherent in both factions, emphasizing the potential for understanding and unity amidst discord. Ultimately, we aspire to inspire our audience to find solace in the narratives of reconciliation that echo within the realms of fantasy and beyond.

The discourse centers on the enduring rivalry between elves and dwarves within various fandoms, particularly as articulated in Tolkien's works. We delve into the historical context of this conflict, tracing its roots to Norse mythology and examining how these archetypes have evolved within contemporary narratives. The episode features an enlightening dialogue between Joshua Noel and esteemed Tolkien scholar Nick Polk, who provides a scholarly lens through which to view the dynamics between these two factions. The discussion highlights the misconceptions surrounding the dwarven character, often portrayed as brutish or greedy, juxtaposed with the ethereal and noble nature of elves. However, as the conversation unfolds, we uncover the deeper complexities of both races, revealing that dwarves, while often viewed as the 'stunted people,' possess a rich cultural heritage and a commendable resilience against corruption. This resilience is poignantly illustrated through their interactions with the One Ring, where they remain largely unaffected by its malevolent influence, thereby showcasing a strength of character that is often overlooked. Ultimately, the episode serves as a reminder that the binaries of good and evil within fantasy narratives are rarely absolute, inviting listeners to reflect on the nuances of both elven and dwarven cultures and their respective contributions to the overarching narrative of Middle-earth.

The episode embarks on an exploration of the dichotomy between elves and dwarves, emblematic of a broader theme of polarization within fandoms. Through a nuanced discussion led by Joshua Noel and Nick Polk, we investigate the historical and literary foundations of this rivalry, particularly as portrayed in Tolkien's legendarium. The conversation reveals that the elves, often celebrated for their grace and wisdom, are not without their faults, just as the dwarves, frequently depicted as greedy and reclusive, possess admirable qualities of resilience and craftsmanship. Polk articulates a compelling argument regarding the dwarven identity, emphasizing their unyielding loyalty and integrity, especially in the face of temptation, as exemplified by their interactions with the Rings of Power. The dialogue further delves into how this rivalry is not merely a literary device but reflects real-world themes of xenophobia and the complexities of cultural identities. By examining various interpretations of these races across multiple intellectual properties, the episode encourages listeners to reconsider preconceived notions and find common ground, embodying the overarching theme of the series — 'Finding the Good.'

Takeaways:

• This episode explores the long-standing polarization between elves and dwarves in various fandoms.
• The discussion highlights the historical context of the rivalry between elves and dwarves, particularly in Tolkien's works.
• We examine how the themes of xenophobia and reconciliation manifest in the relationships between these two races.
• The insights from this episode prompt...

Episode Transcript

(01:14):
Would you rather share a pintafter a hard day's work in the minds
of Moria or engage instimulating conversation as you walk
about the great halls ofRivendell? Well, guys, this is part
of our flagship series for ourannual theme of 2025. Our theme of
being polarization, the seriesbeing finding the good, where we
are going to see some of thesepolarizing things in our fandoms.

(01:36):
You know, we had science andFaith. We had Jackie Chan versus
Bruce Lee, and today we haveelves versus dwarves. Not just in
the Lord of the Rings, Arda,Middle Earth, whatever. We're going
to talk about just in general,because it shows up in a few different
fandoms. And there's someinteresting reasons for why I think
that we might have a funconversation with. And when I say
we, I, of course mean myself,Joshua Null, not of Darwin folk,

(01:57):
not of importance, but the onewho is of importance, the great wizard
Nick Polk. The. See, I want tosay Black, but, like, I don't want
to, like, since this isn'tvideo, I don't want to, like, mislead
people. I'm talking about hisbeard specifically, because that's
how wizards get their.
Oh, like Nick the Black. Likethe beard.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the beard, specifically.

(02:20):
Yeah, no doubt, no doubt.
Yeah. Also of Jack Black fame.That's where Jack Black took his
name from Nick, actually.
Yeah, from me specifically. Wego way back, me and Jack Black. You
know, you're talking about.
You're.
You know, you're important.You're just. You're just embodying
the. The. The hobbit virtue of humility.

(02:41):
Well, what's funny is, like,like, I play off like the, like,
oh, I'm humble. I'm the dummy.But then, like, if y' all pay attention,
I build this lore where I'm,like, we're creating a cult around
Nick Polk, who's also greatfriends with Jack Black. And TJ helped
God create the universe. Andif you pay attention, I'm really
setting myself up where, like,all of my friends are like gods for
some reason, so thatnaturally, you guys have to assume

(03:04):
that I must be, like, at leasta demigod.
I mean, you draw us alltogether. So who has the real power?
You know, that might be Trip,the great podfather, but true, true.
I kind of wish he was here forthis. Should we stop and call him?
He would probably jump on.Dude, he would nerd out so hard.

(03:25):
Well, now that we're alreadyoff the rails, if you listeners are
on a laptop and you're like,man, I want to rate and review this
nonsense. Go over toPodchaser, go to GoodPods, their
websites. It's going to helpthe show a lot. Specifically one
of those two. It helps withsearch engines like Google because
it likes those for somereason. But if you're on your phone,
good news, you could stillhelp, rate, review, comment on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify. That'swhere most people listen to podcasts.

(03:47):
And if you interact with us onthose apps, it bumps us up in the
algorithms, makes other peoplethink we're important. And they'll
be like, wow, there's a wholepantheon here of podcast hosts. And
like, yeah, yeah, yeah, younever knew. You never knew. Until
you rate and review otherpeople, they'll never know the greatness
of Nick Polk. So you guys, yougot to do it so that when I bring
Nick on, I talk about howgreat he is. I'll have a lot of comments

(04:09):
about. Yeah, he's totallyright about that. And of course,
you can also sponsor our showon Apple Podcast Captivator Patreon.
Today we're going to shout outRussell Gentry. He's one of our supporters.
We really appreciate it. Andif you guys want your own shout out
again, Apple podcastcaptivator patreon, $3 a month and
you can get your own shout outat the beginning and end of the episodes.
But what I've been geeking outon recently is what we're going to
be talking about next. I'mgoing to go first to see if. Because

(04:33):
I already told Nick about someof this, I'm going to let our listeners
know. And because I'm beingsporadic, so I need to give Nick
time to catch up with mysporadic ness during the May the
fourth weekend. For whateverreason, Steam naturally had a May
the fourth sale, which wascool. So I got like Fall of the Jedi

(04:54):
or Jedi Survival, both ofthose games. Then Middle Earth was
like, we need to compete forsome reason. So then there was Spring
in the Shire sale and I gotboth Shadow of War and Shadow of
Mordor. And then on top of allthat, I got Battlefront 2. Start,
like the old originalBattlefront 2. And I got it all for
like $25 on sale, like,together. And I'm like, man, each

(05:16):
of these usually are like 60bucks. This was a great day. I haven't
played all of them yet, butI'm geeking out on the fact that
finals are over. I have allthese games thanks to sales, and
I have something to go do. Butyeah, Nick, what about you?
Yeah, you got Two of theheaviest hitters there, man. Star
wars and Lord of the rings forfreaking 25 bucks. Kind of crazy.

(05:37):
Yeah. And it's stuff that Ihaven't even played yet because my
PS, I've never got a PS5. Andmy PS4 got to a point where it was
so loud it was unbearable toplay games anymore. So now I got
a steam room catching up.
Yeah, my wife this year, shebought me an Xbox, the new latest
Xbox, because I had an XboxOne like the original VCR1, and it

(05:57):
just wasn't cutting it anymore.
Not nice, but.
Yeah, but what I've beennerding out on a couple things. One
was that it was recently freecomic book day. I've never been,
but I'm a big Diablo fan, andDiablo 4 is doing like a comic series.
And so they had a free comicto announce their upcoming run that

(06:17):
they're doing. That's kind ofhappening after the events of the
latest DLC in Diablo. And thenI watched Gilmore Girls for the first
time all the way through, so Igot super nerdy.
We got an episode on that soontoo, so.
Good. I. I wrote a post aboutit on Tolkien Pop, you know, so I

(06:39):
got. I got extra nerdy with itas well because they. Surprisingly.
Lots of Lord of the Ringsreferences in Gilmore Girls.
Yeah, there's lots ofeverything references in Gilmore
Girls. There's so many.
It's just like a flagpole orflagship for.
Yeah. In the fall last year, Ilearned the term, like, thawing.
So it's like Noah Khan isthawing right now. And like, guess

(07:02):
Gilmore Girls every fall,like, like they're thawing and you're
like, oh, yeah, now it's timeto get into it. So maybe in the fall
we'll do like a. We'll do abig episode and geek out. Two bearded
men talking about GilmoreGirls. That'd be great.
More bearded men need to talkabout Gilmore Girls.
Yeah. Because, I mean, let'sbe honest, Luke is the most goat
just maybe ever.

(07:24):
Yes, 100%. Could not agreemore, man.
So with all this out of theway, we got to get to the main topic.
Well, let me say, if you guyswant more of the Finding the Good
series, we're doing this,like, picking sides and then finding
the good in the other side.There's a link down below in the
show notes for the entireseries. Check that out. But for now,

(07:46):
today's topic is Elves versusDwarves. And it's going to be a fun
one because I learned a littlebit doing some research for this
I'm like, oh, this is someinteresting history. Elves and Dwarves
have a long history of rivalryand other things that we're going
to discuss in severaldifferent IPs though, like it's not
just like Lord of the Ringsinheritance cycle. I think we've
already mentioned that one oryou mentioned it before. Zero something.

(08:08):
It's got it. You see it inDungeons and Dragons, you see it
in a few different placeswe're going to talk about. Mainly
I'm probably going to pullfrom Lord of the Rings. The inheritance
cycle and Elder Scrolls willprobably be the main ones that I
pull from, just because that'swhat I'm most familiar with. But
Nick might have some otherinteresting ones before we get into
anything else. What are someof the ones that you're most aware

(08:31):
of and where do you think thisconflict has started? I actually
developed a theory throughresearch, but I want to hear from
you first because you'resmarter than me and have a better
beard.
Well, like I said, I'm kind ofa one trick pony where Tolkien's
legendarium is kind of my mainthing. And so I'm not really as familiar

(08:51):
with a lot of the like,expansive universes. You know, there's
a couple other ones likeAvatar, the Last Airbender that I
am. There's no dwarves inthat. I don't know if it's a real
conflict, but I know theWitcher series, there's like. I think
it's more of just a likeecological reality where I think

(09:12):
dwarves were old and theydon't reproduce as fast. The elves
and the Witcher, you know,series are just faster at producing.
And then of course, humansreproduce way faster than both of
them. And therefore elves arelike on the decline. Dwarves are
even like scarcer. And I knowthat because of the elves reproduction

(09:32):
rates, they kind of like pushDwarves out, I think in the history
of the Witcher. But besidesthat and Tolkien, that's kind of
all I got for elves anddwarves, except for the conflict
I think probably comes up. Itprobably has its roots in Norse mythology,
the Poetic Edda and ProseEdda. Right?

(09:54):
Yeah. I want to throw mytheory by you and see if you think
I'm right or if I'm stupid.Also, side note, I just remembered
another one I can put outthere and delicious. In Dungeon,
you see it again where one ofthe characters is a dwarf and you
have an elf and they kind oftalk a little bit about the rivalry.
It's not like main Headlight,but like it's common enough knowledge
that even in, like, animeversion of fantasy, it's still something

(10:16):
that's present that elves anddwarves don't always, you know, love
each other that much.
Right.
Which for some reason alwaysends, we'll get to this later. But
it always ends up with like afun elf and dwarf being friends because
they're not supposed to likeeach other. Like, I don't know, like,
it happens always. It's likewe only establish this conflict so
that we can have anentertaining buddy sequence. Like,

(10:36):
I don't know, man.
I just love that. That's likeracial reconciliation and fantasy
is always the elf in the dwarf.
Yeah. It's beautiful. It'sgreat. Okay, my theory from Mind
you, like, maybe five minutesof Google research. So this, this
is not like deep knowledge oranything, guys. It looks like in

(10:57):
Norse mythology, because,like, I know that Tolkien pulled
a lot from Norse mythology.There's this really weird thing where
all dwarves really were. Wherejust like you had like tree elves
and, you know, irregular elvesand dark elves. They were like, associated
with dark elves, but they werelike the elves of the earth, like
under earth. That's what elveswere. They were just dwarves. So

(11:18):
it wasn't like they weren'tdepicted as short, little grubby
men. They were just likeelves, but underground. And they
were associated with darkelves. So they were like. Because
it's like under earth, theunderworld kind of association, you
know, back when we thoughtheaven was up above and hell was
down below, they're downbelow, so these must be the bad guys.
And to kind of see thatevolve. And I think if I'm right
about this is where Tolkien'spulling from, what Tolkien does,

(11:41):
making the dwarves not justthe little bad guys because they're
under the ground actually issuper cool when you think about it.
Oh, it's great. You know, andI think people don't know and like,
a lot of that undergroundelves, the distinction, you know,
I don't think was so hard andfast. Like, there's leprechauns and
brownies, you know, dwarves,elves were kind of in the same category

(12:04):
of like weird kind of evilspirits at the most and tricksters
at the least. Like you saidover time with like the invention
of like the Shakespearean orlike the Victorian era, fairies who
are like, you know, kind oftrickster, positive nature spirits.
Tolkien kind of took thoseelements and transformed them. And

(12:25):
then, of course, modernfantasy has done the rest. Oh, and
goblins, goblins were alsokind of in the same category as dwarves,
elves and leprechauns andstuff until Way later.
Yeah. Yeah. I was trying tothink. I don't think there are any
dwarves in Beowulf, butthere's some, like, similar stuff,
like what you're talkingabout. And I know Tolkien pulled
a lot from Beowulf, too, so.
Oh, yeah. Usually hugely.

(12:46):
Yeah. So. So it sounds like Imight not be totally off base. So
what I'm picking at that Ithink is interesting, that I want
to hear, like, Nick's wisdomabout one of the things. And this
is where, like, again, I don'tknow a lot about Tolkien, so I can
just say whatever and thenhave Nick correct me afterwards.
And I love this. Some of myunderstanding is, like, Tolkien,

(13:07):
one of his problems with hisown work was kind of to do with,
like, some of the ogres or thegoblins kind of stuff, because it's
like he had this theology as aCatholic that every thing was created
good. So what was interestingto me is what you see is, like, usually
dwarves in Norse mythology,they were kind of bad because they
were underworld or tricksters,you know, something. But they were

(13:29):
associated with the darkelves. And here he has where. So
ERU iluvatar, the main God,creates elves and humans directly.
Dwarves are still under theground. They're not created directly
from ERU Iluvatar, they'recreated from Aule because shenanigans,
then they're given their lifeby Auru Iluvatar still. So they're

(13:52):
not. So. So you still kind ofhave this kind of, like, distinction
of maybe they're not quite asgood as human and elves, but they're
still giving their life fromaerial Illuvatar, and they're still
seen as good, I think, for themost part, in Arda. Right?
Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's partof it is that for. For those who
don't know, Aule is a sort of,like, God figure, lower G God. And

(14:15):
in Tolkien's universe, there'sa capital G, God who creates everything.
But he creates the gods andthe angels first. Kind of weird.
And then he's like, all right,gods and angels, help me create the
rest of the world. And he'slike, by the way, I'm going to create
some other children of mine,elves and. And human, so watch out.
And Al is like, man, I can'twait that long. So because he is

(14:37):
not a. The omnipotent deityGod, he can only make these kind
of meat puppets and can'tcontrol them, or he can only control
them so they don't have theirown will. And so Illuvitar is like,
what are you doing, dude?Like, you're trying to be like me.
Not. Not allowed. And Ali'slike, oh, I'm so sorry. But then
because of Ale being like,repentant and just trying to create

(14:59):
and wanting to. Wanting to.Has a desire to like, be with something,
to share life with. Iluvatarbasically gives them life and then
adopts them. And the way thatthe Dwarves view the end of the world,
they believe that they'regoing to be with Aule, creating the

(15:21):
new Arda after its destruction.

(17:05):
That is so interesting. That'sgoing to make. There's some fun connections
with that and what happens inthe inheritance cycle with Dwarves
too. But for now, I'm going tostick on Arda for a little bit. Because
this is interesting becauseyou're mentioning how he tried to
create, but he couldn't reallydo it on his own. And basically,
ERU Iluvatar is like. Or canwe just say Illuvatar? Is that fine?

(17:25):
Yeah, that'd be fine.
Okay. Iluvatar is like, hey,man. Wanting to create, that desire
is good, but you ain't me. Butthen he blesses it anyway. But repentance,
you know, whatever. And Ithink that's what we see the Dwarves
do in the story of Arda,right? Like, they're constantly trying
to create. And then you seethem starting to tear down trees.
And then Aule's girlfriend, Idon't remember her name. So right

(17:46):
now it's girlfriend. Yeah,yeah, that's one sexy lady. But she
was like, yo, what about thetrees? And that's how the Ents end
up coming to be. But, like,what you see is like, the Dwarves
are kind of made in the imageof Aule almost because, like, they're
wanting to create, but intheir doing that, they're not doing

(18:06):
it perfectly. You know,they're not doing it as maybe ERU
Iluvatar would have wanted.Where I think the elves, you see
working with nature a littlebit better. And then humans are flawed
because, well. Well, we'rehumans. So when we write stories
that involve humans, it'slike, yeah, screw them, they suck.
Humans historically haven'tliked ourselves very much.
Yeah. And even the elves, thiskind of draws up from the beginning

(18:29):
of their conflict. The Elvishname for the Dwarves is Nagrim, which
means the stunted people.Basically, the people who are too
short.
Call them short people. Andnow I'm going to play the song. I
think it's from RollingStones. The short people got no reason.
Have you Heard this.

(18:51):
Are you talking about, like,can't get enough satisfaction, but
instead of short people?
Oh, I don't think so. Okay,keep talking. Tell me, why did Illuvitar
make humans and elves? And I'mactually. I actually am going to
look up the song and play it,I think, because it's just so freaking
funny.
Yeah. I mean, Illuvitarcreated humans and elves because

(19:12):
he wanted creatures to enjoyand participate and partner with
him in creating.
Why both? Why not just theelves? Because the elves seem like
they're more godly anyway. Right.
It's. Honestly, it's more ofTolkien. Tolkien wanted to explore
what it would be like to be ahuman with e. With basically immortality.

(19:35):
And the elves are.
They're Time Lords.
Yeah. Tolkien kind of saysthat they're the same species as
men. That's how, you know,some of them can get married and
have kids. But I think it'smore of Tolkien basically doing a
thought experiment with.
Interesting.
Elves and immortality.
Yeah. So more generically thenin Arda, and I think this tends to
be true over the course ofmost things. The elves live longer

(19:59):
than other species. They'remore sophisticated. You know, they
like intellectualconversations. They're probably eating
vegetarian meals and maybehaving some wine. And then your dwarves
are. Mead, mead. More pints.And then they're digging, they're
working, they're building withtheir hands, but they're also good
craftsmen. So, you know,they're built almost like industry,

(20:22):
but not in the same way thatwe see Sauron and all the other characters
that Tolkien kind of writes asthe bad guys. Dwarven industry is
more working with the Earthinstead of against the Earth, I guess
is how you would say it. And Ithink that's for both species. It's
kind of true. Across thefields, maybe.
Yeah, I agree. I agree.
Yeah. I mean, I'm sure thereare exceptions, but here's my favorite
Dwarf song now, because. Whatdid you say they're called by the

(20:46):
Stunted People? StuntedPeople. Okay. So it's actually Randy
Newman. Short People.
Even better. Even Fre.
So funny.
Short people got no reasonShort people got no reason Short
people got no reason to live.They got little hands.Little eyes

(21:08):
I don't know why it's so.
My dad's side of the familyare all kind of short. And for some
reason, one of my aunts,because I was only allowed to listen
to Christian music, with twoexceptions being Disney music. And

(21:28):
then these mixed CDs that myaunt would make me so that I had
some semblance of culture.
Right.
For some reason, she put thaton one of the CDs. So every time
my dad was getting on mynerves. My dad's been shorter than
me since I was in middleschool. I would play this song because
I just thought it was so funny.
Now you play it. I hadforgotten about that song, but I'm

(21:49):
pretty sure someone at workshowed me that song.
They got little hands andlittle feet and they go around telling
great big lies.
You know, Little eyes.
Yeah. Yeah, that's a. That's.That's the Dwarves. No, I'm just
kidding. Dwarves are not goingaround telling lies. That's not what
they're known for. But some ofthe other ones. So inherited cycle.

(22:10):
This is for. For me, I neverthought of Doors as particularly
religious. Usually when Iencounter them in stories and stuff,
they're just like little menwho want to work. You know, hi ho,
hi ho, off to work we go. Andthen we're going to have some meat.
And meat. But in theinheritance cycle, you also see that
they're deeply religious.They're willing to lay down their
lives for their religiousbeliefs. And they believe that if

(22:31):
they died as long as they wereburied in rock with the earth, that
they would go to be with theirGod and kind of be able to help rebuild
stuff in an afterlife. So it'skind of interesting that Tolkien
has that, too. Tolkien wasobviously first. Inheritance cycle
is going to pull a lot fromTolkien's ideas.
Which one? Which is theinheritance cycle again?
It's Eragon. Eldest. I can'tremember the other two or three books.

(22:56):
Really good, though. They'rereally good. I listened to them on
audiobook. I never actuallyread them. It was funny. This is
one of the most irritatingthings maybe ever. My brother was
obsessed with these books whenhe was a kid, right. And he wrote
the author back, like, before.I think the second book came out.
So this is like back whenChristopher, whatever his name is,
was basically not well, like,he wasn't that well known. So he

(23:19):
wrote my brother back. Mybrother had this really long, nice
handwritten letter from thisauthor who's now, like, super famous.
And he lost it. And I'm like,dude. Like, that was. Well, you know,
he was like, oh, just someauthor I liked. It was just a guy.
No one will remember him. AndI'm like, right, Matt, dude, dude,
you messed up. But, yeah. Sobeyond that, in Elder Scrolls, this

(23:42):
is going to be anotherinteresting thing with the Dwarves.
Elves. I feel like pretty muchthe same everywhere. Like, I don't
find Elves as interesting,which might tell you guys where I'm
going to go here. But in ElderScrolls, they're not actually dwarves,
they're like the Dwemlin orsomething like that, right? Yeah.
Have you played Elder Scrolls?

(24:03):
Yeah, I played. I played alittle bit of Oblivion, a little
bit of Morrowind, and I playedSkyrim the most.
Yes.
So I know that when you gointo those dungeons, like, they're
not really anywhere. Right.Because you basically fight their,
like, little contraptions thatthey made or whatever.
Yeah. They're like a forgottenlost race that were the Dwemer and.

(24:24):
Yeah. Which the cool thingabout, like, the contraptions that
you're talking about is like,it's all kind of a steampunk vibe.
I feel like. I love thearchitecture, but, yeah, the Dwemer
were actually like dark elvesthat lived under the earth. So like,
that's going way back to likethe Norse stuff again. But they weren't
just elves, they were justassociated with the elves. They were

(24:45):
still their own creature.
Right.
We don't know a lot about themon purpose. I think Elder Scrolls
just thought it would be funnybecause they didn't die off, they
just gone. Don't know why.It's just a mystery game has been
going on forever. You thinkthey would have given us something
about it? Nah.
Tolkien calls that textualruins or. Sorry, he doesn't call

(25:05):
it textual ruins. There's thisTolkien scholar who talks about.
Because there's things inTolkien that are unexplained. And
you're like, why is this lostcivilization here? You're just like,
I don't know. It's calledtextual ruins. The ruins are there
and it makes it like. Itincreases the depth of the feeling
of realness, you know?
That's great, dude. All right.I've played D and D, like, twice.

(25:29):
I don't know a lot about it.Can you tell me anything about, like,
how elves and dwarves are. Aredepicted there? Do you know much
about it or.
Literally know nothing about the.
Yeah.
The lore behind deity? Verylittle. I've played multiple times.
I know very little about the lore.
Yeah, well, as. As far as,like, when you play and stuff and
the way they do interactions,is it still basically the same as

(25:50):
Lord of the Rings as far asyou can tell, or, like, how they
relate to each other or is itjust kind of whatever the GM feels
like that day?
I have literally no clue.
Cool. I'm sure Magic theGathering probably has history too.
I know I don't know it. Andsince you didn't mention it. I'm
assuming you don't know.
No, I play it, but they'rekind of separate, I guess. I feel

(26:11):
like elves are more prominent.I don't think there's a lot of dwarf
cards comparatively speakingto how prevalent elf cards are.
Gotcha. All right, so I thinkfor the purpose of our conversation
then will keep. Elves arepretty much static. You know, they're,
they live a long time. Highculture philosophy, you know, that

(26:34):
kind of stuff. We're not goingto do the version of Dwarves that
are basically bad elves underthe ground. I think for this we'll
stick with like what morepeople are familiar with from like
delishin and dungeon, theinheritance cycle, Lord of the Rings,
that kind of stuff. So we'lltake with like just like the normal
short people who like to workin mines and eat meat, drink mead.

(26:55):
We're going with theseversions. Nick, you got to pick side
elf or dwarf. Where are you going?
You know, I'm probably stillgonna go with the elves. You know,
I do, I love Dwarves. But youknow, elves, I feel like just have
comfier, you know, dwellings.I feel like it's gonna be cooler.
I feel like the food's gonnabe a little more, you know, upper,

(27:19):
you know, quality and theyhave awesome libraries. And Dwarves
are not, are not prone towrite things down very often.
Yeah, see this is, this iswhere I'm in conflict. I love to
read, I just do. I'm a bigreader but like personality wise,

(27:39):
everything else, man. Give mesome meat, give me some mead. I want
to be like that one scene inthe first Hobbit movie where we're
just like throwing craparound, singing songs. It's like,
oh yeah, like, because they'renot like, I don't like to me, they
don't betray like toxicmasculinity. They like to sing and
stuff still. They're justlike, we're down, we're getting dirty
and we're gonna have a goodtime. And I'm like, yeah, you know

(28:00):
what? I don't need the longlife sophistication. That kind of
like whatever. I don't want toeat a vegan meal. I want to eat meat,
drink some beer and sing coolsongs by a campfire. But I also want
to read. So like, like that'swhere I'm like, the inheritance cycle
is really what won me over.Whenever I see like these dwarves
who are also highly religious,I'm like, it's hard for them to have

(28:21):
some of these beliefs if thereisn't something written down. Like
some formal system here. Somaybe I'm like a high priest dwarf
in inheritance cycle. I don't know.
I like that. I like the highpriest, the cleric dwarf there.
Yeah. Like we. Now we're gonnathrow in. Yeah, yeah. So, like, if
you were an elf, what. Whatclass would you be?

(28:42):
Oh, man. If I was an elf, whatclass I would. Would I be? I would
honestly probably be an archerjust because I would have a higher
chance of surviving.
That's probably what I'd be.
Because I don't. You're gonnabe, like, a little bit boring. Yeah.
Basically Legolas, for sure.
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm your. Yourcleric dwarf friend. Yeah. Here's

(29:07):
the thing.
You'll bring the healing, youknow, maybe bring in, you know, channel
the God. I don't know. What'sthe. Do you know the Dwarven God?
D and D is at all.
Not in D and D. What's the.
Dwarven God for theinheritance cycle?
Moradin. I might be sayingthat incorrectly. The problem with
inheritance cycle is, like, Ihated the Eragun movie, so, like,
I've only read the books, so Ihave that problem where I'm probably

(29:30):
mispronouncing everything.
I mean, it's fair. The movie,you know, get it out of here.
Yeah, it was. It was bad. Itwas really bad.
So it's a terrible use ofJeremy Lyon's talent.
So true. All right, so wepicked our sides. We kind of said,
why a little bit. Here's thething, the gimmick for our finding
the good series, you got todefend the other side. You got to

(29:51):
say, what can you, in thedeepest parts of you, if you were
like, what is good aboutDwarves? As someone who chose the
Elven side, what good do yousee in Dwarven culture that you think
you could glean.
From one of the best things?Obviously, I'm going to use Tolkien
as kind of my reference point,but in the Lord of the Rings, the

(30:16):
legendarium, the history ofTolkien's universe, the Dwarves are
one of the least corruptibleraces where when Sauron creates the
rings to corrupt and controlpeople, the Dwarves, you know, increases
kind of their greed. ButSauron can't control them. And so
they are kind of who they are.They know what they want, they know

(30:40):
what their life is about, andthey're not going to be corrupted
by outside influence. And Ifind that really respectable. And
the elves are not that way.They're a little more corruptible,
obviously, men, even more so,because they're not immortal. Yeah,
but the elves are Alwaystrying to kind of keep making cool

(31:01):
science stuff, keep learning.And Sauron takes advantage of that.
That's something I didn't evenknow about my own side that I chose
today. I know. I feel wiser already.
Yeah.
Here's what I love. So Imentioned I love reading and stuff,
but I think the thing, if I'mfinding the good in the other side,
I'm looking at. I chose dwarf.I'm looking at the elven side. What

(31:23):
do I love about this culture?What do I still find that we can
gleam from elven culture,which, again, is fictional. But still,
their respect for language isso freaking cool. Like, they still
speak the language of thegods. Especially, like, I'm sticking
with Arda mostly, but also,like, when you see how they name
weapons or, like, how theylike why they name things the way
they do, why they write thingsthe way they do, what they call their

(31:44):
different halls. Like, theyjust have such a respect for language.
And that's something I feellike I could do better. You know,
I know whenever I do, youknow, I'm a little Bible nerd. I
usually just read the English,but every now and then when I decide
I'm gonna read some Aramaic orHebrew or something, I'm like, oh,
wait, yeah, I do gleam morefrom looking at the language of this
thing. And, you know, even ifI read other religions like the Quran

(32:04):
and I look at like the Arabicand I do, like a little word study.
You learn more from respectingoriginal language, respecting why
things name the way it is, thehistory of a word, you know, even
in this, like, I didn't knowanything about dwarf. And then you're
telling me the old Elvish wordand like, we got like a little fun
song moment out of it. Andlike, I'm looking at like the history
of Norse and I'm like, man, ifI just knew how much was packed into

(32:26):
the word dwarf, I would havesuch a better respect for it. And
I'm like, I don't know. So Iguess that's my big thing with elves
that I'm like, man, I lovetheir. Their love of words.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. To. To. Oneother fun fact is that the elves.
I can't remember who it is. Sothe. The elfish script that we see
in like Lord of the Rings andthe normal stuff is. Was. Were created

(32:50):
the out like the writing stylewas created by guy named Theanor
who also loves to craftthings. One of the most dwarf, like,
elves out of the history. Butthere was a person before him who
wrote. Who created an AlphabetWriting system. And I want to say
it's Pangolo is his name.Don't quote me. I might be wrong

(33:11):
on the name, but it was calledthe Kth. And the dwarves use the
Kth for their writing and Lordof the Rings so their writing style
is rooted in the elvishinvention of legends.
That's super cool, man. That'scool. So this is a little bit random,
but since you mentioned it,what I find interesting for me in

(33:34):
Arda, Lord of the Rings kindof stuff, Dwarves seem like not anti
magic, but they don't messwith that stuff. Delicious. In dungeon,
the dwarf that's part of yourmain group there doesn't like magic
at all. And in the inheritancecycle though, Dwarves are really
big on like ruins and stuff inthe caves. So like they have like
their own kind of like ancientEarth magic. And I like, I kind of

(33:55):
like kind of like that vibe.Yeah, Yeah. I wonder at what point
they went from like these darkelf kind of mysterious magic stuff
under the ground to nope, webuild now. Or if like it was a little
bit of both in Norse and thenwe just highlighted one and left
the other out or what happened?
That's a great question. Idon't know. Also I was looking up
what if. So actually Feanorcreated the. Kirby. Sorry. So it

(34:17):
wasn't the other guy, man, I,I honestly don't even know. I, I
think probably it had to.
Do with probably Tolkien.
I think so. Because whatTolkien does is that there was also,
which happens throughouthistory too, usually stereotypes

(34:38):
of certain fantasy races areconnected to real life interactions
with people of differentethnicities, nationalities. Right.
And so one of the mostnegative things and wrestled with
is that he uses a lot of antiSemitic tropes at first in creating
the Dwarves, which is actuallypretty prevalent.

(34:59):
And I'm thinking about evenhow they're depicted in the movies
and stuff. And I'm like, Ican, I can see it. Yeah, right.
And so to on top of that tosay like, oh, they're evil, they're
from the ground. There is sortof this implicit, you know, or inherent
anti Semitism. And I thinkTolkien tried to later in life bring
that out and be like, okay. Heeven talks about how the language

(35:23):
of the dwarves is inspired byHebrew, like actual Hebrew language.
And so I think he's trying tolike, he eventually tries to like
elevate it, make the dwarves agood culture and whatever.
Yeah, I actually, I kind oflike that connection. And this, this
isn't based on anything smart.If people are listening and wondering,

(35:44):
this is just like vibes, likethe Hebrew language from what I've
studied really does feel moreearthy. Where I guess like the Greek
and stuff of like the NewTestament feels a little bit more
sophisticated. So kind of likethis like, like the dwarves or the
Old Testament, Hebrew, theelves or the New Testament Greek,
you know.
Well, I think too, especiallylike the Old Testament and a lot

(36:04):
of the, you know, the HebrewBible, the land is like one of the
biggest themes that, you know,like you said, it's like feels earthy.
And Tolkien, which his theoryI think is wrong is that in modern
day linguistics. But he waswriting and thought, and I think
even in his day it was wrong.But he thought that language had

(36:25):
inherent vibes in them. So hethought words could literally sound
worse than others and that itwas potentially like the Platonic
form of a word, essentially.
See, the thing is, the problemwith that is like, that's so subjective
because, like me personally, Idon't like hearing French. I don't

(36:46):
know what it is. It just is.It's like supposed to be like this
romantic language. But I hearit, I'm like, nah, give me some German,
some Russian, some Italian,you know, like Latin, Spanish, I
love it all. For some reason,French is like the one language that
I listen to and I'm like, Idon't want to hear this anymore.
Go away before I taunt you asecond time.

(37:09):
I just offended like, like allthese people who are listening to
our podcast in France, becausethere are a few and I forgot about
that. Sorry guys, this isFrench people. I don't like your
language. Some Canadians do.
Oh, sorry.
Listen, I'm sorry guys, Iapologize. I'm an ignorant American
dwarf priest.
Is Canada even a real country?Try. That's a South park reference.

(37:30):
So, Nick, I do want to get at.Since we talked about Arda a lot,
when you get into the Lord ofthe Rings movie, a lot of people
might not understand why inthat movie it exists. Because I think
that's most people's mainpoint of reference is like Legolas
and Gimli. Gimli's likedwarves or elves. You know what I
mean? And Legolas is likedwarf. Sorry, in my mind, Legolas

(37:55):
is like way worse nudie thanhe actually is.
Yes, the Dwarves.
But so for people who aren'taware, like when Lord of the Rings
starts, why is Gimli andLegolas like, where's that tension
coming from?
Yeah, so for those who like,obviously, if you're thinking of
like the Fellowship of theRing movie, when they're at The Council
of Elrond. And you know, Gimlisays something, he's like, I'll die

(38:19):
before I let the ring go intothe hands of an elf or whatever.
And you're like, what theheck? Where is that coming from?
So in, in Tolkien's world,there's three ages, kind of like
how we do BC and AD there'sfirst Age, second and third, and
there's a fourth age at onepoint. But these span kind of thousands
of years for them. And then itgoes all the way back to the first

(38:43):
stage in the Legendarium wherethe stunted people. Right, we talked
about that already. The Elvishlanguage is already like, oh, we're
better than you becauseIllumitar created us directly and
you had to get adopte. Butlater on. So actually there's also
lots of stuff so peoplebought. So there is stuff in Tolkien

(39:05):
still that shows that Dwarves,some of them did side with Sauron
at one point. And so.
Oh, interesting.
And there's also evidence toshow that elves thought that like,
Dwarves were sort of like orcsin a way and they would literally
hunt them for sport. Sothere's that. Oh, yeah.
I mean that. That would do it.
Yeah. And so one of the mainconflicts that happens is that sometime

(39:29):
in the First Age there is aElvish king named Thingol, okay?
And he rules this realm inMiddle Earth. And he makes a alliance
with a dwarf kingdom calledNagarod. And they're amazing smiths,

(39:52):
they create jewelry. And hegets a Silmaril, which is an amazing
magical jewel that gives youlots of power. It's very sought after.
And he's like, hey, what's up,dwarfs? Come make me a cool necklace
so I can put the Silmaril onand I can have it. And the Dwarves
are greedy. Everyone wants theSilmaril. The Thingol's also very
greedy. This is what theSilmaril does to people. And the

(40:13):
Dwarves are like, cool, youbetter actually you give us the necklace
because we made it, we don'twant to give it to you. And Thenol
insults them, they killThingol. The Dwarves killed the Elven
King. The elves, of course,kill that group of Dwarves. The Nagra
dwarves now declare war on theelves and slaughter and kill the

(40:36):
elves. And then there'sanother group of elves that come
and kill the Dwarves. And thatbasically sets off the rest of the
history of the Dwarven andElvish conflict in Middle Earth.
Yeah, yeah. And there's crazystuff because they're both like good
guys too. But like, thenthere's Times where like, you know,
the clear bad guys, the Orcsand like Zauron and stuff happen

(40:57):
and one side's like, well I'mnot gonna help the other side. And
then it just kind ofperpetuates of the oh, you didn't
help us, so now we're notgonna help you. It's very mature.
I'm pretty sure the firstinstance of murder is the elves committed
first.
So.
And it's against each other.So you know, like I said, there's,
there's. Everyone's good, butnot everyone obviously, but most.

(41:20):
The dwarves, elves and men,everyone's good for the most part.
They just do naughty things sometimes.
Yeah. And sometimes don'thelp. Not helping is really seen
as super evil and in MiddleEarth stories.
Yeah.
And I think rightfully so.It's just hard for us to see it in
our world because we're like,well why should we go help Ukraine?
That's just gonna take awayfrom me. And we're just very self

(41:43):
centered because all you seeis the world here. You don't see
what's happening in Ukraineand same thing Palestine right now.
And America's beenhistorically bad at this. But America
is kind of like. I'm trying tothink of what it was, what is it
when the elves didn't comefor. There was, there's a. I'm blinking

(42:03):
here. Imagine seeing Dwarfkingdom under attack. They're the
last people standing.
You're talking about the, theprologue to the Hobbit movies. They
do this thing where thedwarves need help from Smaug after
he's attacking and the. Andthe elves run away. That is a made
up thing from the movie by the way.
Interesting.

(42:24):
And it's not. And also Gondornot trying to help Rohan. Also not
a real thing.
I knew that one. I didn't knowthe first one. For some reason I
thought that was in there. Butthis is why you're the Tolkien expert
and I'm the guy who likesTolkien, like you said.
The theme is there though.Helping people and being assistants.
And like we see that we'relike dang, that's really bad. And

(42:46):
it creates conflict in the movies.
Yeah, but we're go with themovie just so I can make the analogy.
But like America are the elvesa lot of the time. Right? Like Even
World War II we did not wantto be involved. We were just like
letting. Watching other peopleget attacked and we're like, well,
what about our needs and whatabout, you know, our people? We can't
afford to do this until itbecomes on our shores and then it's

(43:07):
like, now it's suddenly ourproblem. We're the elves, you know,
watching the Dwarves getattacked, but we just don't see it.
So we can distance ourselvesand be selfish. And we're still doing
it today with Ukraine andPalestine and other conflicts and
yay, America. Yeah, yeah. Yousee, you see my Captain America shield?
I love America.
Yay.

(44:25):
And I will find the good init. But actually, I like the elves
a little bit better, knowingthat that was a made up thing for
the movie. But so in a lot ofdifferent IPs, you know, we mentioned
Legolas and Gimli. Like,that's the big one. You see them
kind of reconciling, becomingbest friends, fighting together in
the Lord of the Rings moviesand books, in Delicious and Dungeon.

(44:46):
Since I brought it up, I'lluse it. You know, Our dwarf character,
whose name escapes me rightnow, really didn't want to trust
magic, really didn't want totrust the elves. But when he came
to a situation where he couldeither help the group by allowing
the magic to assist him orturn back, he learns to cooperate.
He learns to, you know, workwith the magic. And we have these
big stories of reconciliationand the inheritance cycle. The elves

(45:09):
and dwarves don't like eachother, but our main character, Aragorn,
is being mentored from apriest in the Dwarven. Thank me.
You know, he's going to theDwarves and learning about philosophy,
different stuff, and gettinghelp from them. But also he's training
in magic from the elves. So wesee this cooperation when it needs
to happen, and it comes overand over and over again. It's just

(45:31):
so common. We pit them againsteach other just so we can have them
learn to cooperate. Like wementioned earlier. Nick, why does
this keep happening in ourfantasy stories? Why do we keep wanting
to pit them against each otherjust to make them reconcile and work
together?
My assumption is probably thatit has roots in Tolkien. And it's
probably also just a such apervasive problem that's been a part

(45:53):
of human history is thatthere's always been some sort of
xenophobia, whatever it'sinformed by, and in, you know, a
lot of these fictional worlds,that's where humans kind of have
a safe split, safe place towrestle with those questions. And,
you know, if it's there andpeople want that in the world, you

(46:16):
know, use elves and dwarves tocreate the conflict and show some
reconciliation. So hopefullythat kind of reflects back into our
own world.
Yeah, yeah, it's Interesting.So something sci fi does a lot that
will pointed out for me thathelps me is it often makes you ask
how you treat the other orwhat makes us human compared to these

(46:37):
other things. What I thinkfantasy does that's a little bit
different with some of theseraces. Is it like you talk about
xenophobia, it makes us askthis question of why do we other
not like, how do we treat theother. But I think a lot of times
of fantasy, it's asking morewhy rather than how. And I think
part of it probably comes fromwhat you were talking about earlier,
where certain ones get groupedwith some of these racial stereotypes

(46:58):
like you remember talkingabout with the dwarves. And I know
you see that with some of thedark elves stuff and certain things
that we're not going to gothere Marvel, but we see some of
this and I think because it'sbeen used to depict race poorly,
it's just really natural touse that same story that, you know,
where we depicted things in away that was evil. We now use that

(47:20):
same story, reconciling themedium by asking why we do this in
the first place.
Yeah, I think too, the elvesare kind of like this on the other
end that, you know, the elvesare like supermodels, perfect, quote,
unquote, perfect specimens.And dwarves, on the other hand, are
like hairy, short, you know,not as attractive features. And so

(47:43):
I think it's a place wherethere is no such thing as the perfect
person. Right. There's nolike, that doesn't exist. And so
to have this weird happymedium in between through this reconciliation,
you know, kind of, I think,trying to capture something that's
more real.
Yeah, yeah, I know all that'sinteresting. So, you know, I think

(48:05):
most of our listeners knowthat I also am part of another podcast,
the Whole Church Podcast, andI care deeply about the church and
church unity, that kind ofstuff. I've been working on ecumenical
stuff with that podcast forlike eight or nine years now or something
crazy. Like basically adecade, like huge chunk of my life
has been dedicated to this. Sowhen I see some of the stuff we see
in these fantasy stories, Ican't help but think of like, how

(48:25):
the church in America rightnow is othering immigrants or how
our progressive church inAmerica is othering the conservative
church in America that'sothering the progressive because
they're not real Christians.You know, we're just using the like
the true Scotsman argumentback and forth because you're not
a real Christian because youdon't love immigrants and you're
not a real Christian becauseyou love gay people too much and
you're not a real Christianbecause you know, like we always

(48:45):
do this othering, we always dothis like pushing people away. And
the church has become sofractured. Like to me it breaks my
heart and that's why I care somuch about this. But when I look
at this stuff in fantasy andhow frequently the conflicted elves
and dwarves can come together,I gotta believe there's something
the church can learn. Nick,what's your wisdom for the church

(49:08):
from the elf dwarf conflict?That they need to look at one.
Of the things too. And I'mgoing, you know, Tolkien has an essay
called On Fairy Stories wherehe basically makes a whole argument
about why fantasy is alegitimate art form. There's three
main things he said it doesit's function. Fantasies, functions.
One, we go to escape becausethe world sucks.
Yeah.
And we need, we need abreather. Two, we get recovery. So

(49:32):
what that means is like thingsin the world where like man, life
sucks. But then we see Legolasand Gimli become best friends and
go to freaking Ballinortogether, which normally wouldn't
happen. You're like, dang,that's awesome. I didn't know friendships
could be like that.
Yeah.
And then it's consolationwhere we're consoled, we're comforted

(49:53):
by that. So that when wereturn to our world we have this
kind of new set of eyes to tryto manifest, you know, better realities
in our world. And so I thinkthat this racial reconciliation between
elves and dwarves,specifically in Tolkien, and probably
influence in other, you know,intellectual properties, is that

(50:15):
if we have fictional examplesthat do that, that do that, well,
there's hope that we can dothat in our world.
Yeah, man, I could shouthallelujah. And I think that's. And
if you guys love the Bible,that's a lot of the points of our
apocalyptic literature and ourprophecy literature and biblical

(50:37):
work is like. Because yeah,life sucks right now. Let me tell
you the future. And a lot oftimes there's a lot of violence and
crazy stuff in the Bible thatI'm like, some of that I don't love.
I don't agree with all of it.Right. But the point of so much of
it, especially like if youlook at the Book of Daniel, which
I'm really passionate about,is that there's hope. And I think
if that's what you get fromthese stories, that's worthwhile.
Because I think one of thereasons why the church is so divided

(51:00):
is because of Fear, we fearthe other. Xenophobia again. Right?
We have this fear of like, oh,you're not really Christians and
if people believe what you'resaying, then all of a sudden they're
going to burn in hell foreternity. Or you're not really Christians
and people believe what you'resaying, they'll never know the real
Jesus and maybe legitimatefears. Right. But if we let fear
drown out hope, thenreconciliation becomes impossible.

(51:21):
So I think seeing thesestories of fantasy and having this
hope of reconciliation canprobably speak a lot more than us
trying to hash out ourarguments that we're never going
to agree on anyway.
Yeah. And the blame is usuallya lot. We carry our groups and us
carry a lot of the blame thatwe don't want to admit, because elves

(51:42):
and dwarves, usually theconflict is rooted in both sides
simultaneously, and then itjust festers and grows, man.
Good stuff. Well, did youhave. I don't have anywhere to go
with that. I think it's good.Poignant truth. Did you have anything
else you want to add aboutthis or just about elves and dwarves

(52:02):
in general before we head toour wrap up here?
No, I just said I alluded toGimli and Legolas going to Valinor,
which is basically kind oflike heaven. And so there's this
idea of like, we should all beheading to the Good place, a better
world. Like, let's do it. Likeit's there. We've got. We've got

(52:23):
examples.
Yeah, yeah. What's up? Is itBaron and Luthien? Is that the story?
I'm thinking of where the. Thehuman and the elf are talking about
eternity kind of stuff.
Oh, that is the Athrobath.That is Finrod.
And I don't know, I'm terribleat names.
Andreth. Maybe it might beAndreth Finra.

(52:43):
Google will know, guys, Ipromise. Google knows. Yeah. Well,
all right then, let's wrapthis up. I'm excited to just kind
of jump in the end of this.And for our bonus question, right.
We always do a bonus questionfor our patrons or captivate listeners
or Apple podcast sponsors. Andtoday's a fun one. We're going to
say the question simple. Whatgood can be found in ogre society?

(53:06):
It's a Finding the Good bonusepisode. Yeah. Where can we find
the good in ogres? But beforewe get to that, we're gonna do some
recommendations. Nick, do youwanna go first or do you want me
to go first? Give you a little time.
I think you go first.
Okay. This one I'm basicallyrecommending this for Nick, because
I told all of our listenersabout this like a million times.
I feel like Hunger in the Duskis a comic book series written by

(53:29):
my favorite author, G. WillowWilson. High fantasy. For me. It
is my favorite fantasy, notwritten by Tolkien. Interesting.
Okay.
A race known as the Van Gogh,which we're learning a lot about.
Maybe they're not as evil aswe thought, which is interesting.
Attacking ogres and humans andhumans and ogres had to make an alliance

(53:51):
of reconciliation because ofthat threat which is only threatening
them, it turns out because ofa bigger threat. It's so good. It's
so good. And it's like the waythe world's built out and the art
is drawn. Like, I really thinkyou would like it. I really do. And
she's also just a fantasticwriter. But right now you can get
like volume one, the graphicnovel. And then like, I'll text you

(54:13):
when volume two comes out ifyou like it.
Okay. I just got it on. I'vegot it on my search. I got it up
here. Hunger in the desk. Igot it.
I found out Volume one also isavailable on Kindle Unlimited, if
you have that. So that's.That's kinda cool. Yeah. Okay. Anyway,
see you recommendation. Itdoesn't have to be specific towards
me. I just. I'm like, I'mtalking to Dick. I wanted to tell
him about this anyway.
No, I love it, especially withcomics. You know, just digging into

(54:36):
it.
I know you're starting to getinto it. I'm like, hey, this is one.
Yeah. She's won an EisnerAward for her sci fi comic series,
which is like. Yeah, so she'slike the goat.
Okay, Willow. All right,Willow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All right, man. What you got?
I think that, you know, I'mgoing to go a little older. I'm going
to say go for the classics.I'm talking about the classic literature.

(54:58):
You know, I've kind of beenmaking my way through some stuff
as an English teacher. And I'mreading Gulliver's Travels right
now, which is like one of thefirst satires in the Western quote
unquote literary canon, if youwill. But it's fun, it's cool. There's
a reason why there's thingsare classics. We should add more
to the classics. We shouldexpand the Western canon or abolish

(55:20):
it and just make thingsawesome. But they're worth reading
and reading the class, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Check out. Check out a little,you know, Great Gatsby. Check out
a little moby dick, go for it.
Also, listen Catholic church,if you're listening. I'm not opposed
to you making a NewerTestament. I think it would be great
to have Old Testament, NewTestament, Newer Testament. And I'd
read it depending on what you.I mean I would read it no matter

(55:42):
what you put in there. WhetherI agree with it or not would probably
depend on what you put in there.
The Gospel of Joshua.
No, yeah, there we go. Therewe go. It would be terrible, but
do it anyway. Well, guys,again, if you're on a laptop, please
consider interviewing our showon Podchaser or GoodPods, one of
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(56:03):
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(56:24):
that's awesome. What's notfree is being one of our sponsors
and we love shouting them outas well. You can sponsor our show
on Apple Podcasts activatorPatreon. Today we're shouting out
Russell Gentry. I love youdude. You are the coolest. He's the
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(56:49):
So be like Russell, supportour show for $3 a month and you'll
get your own shout out as wellas some of that free merch every
so often, which is sick. Ifyou want to hear more Finding the
good, there's a link downbelow in the show notes. You can
find the whole series. It'sawesome. I love everything we've
done so far. This one might bemy favorite because I got to talk
with Nick more on this onebecause I don't think he's been on
any of the others. Yeahsmooches guys. Anyway, remember,

(57:11):
we're all chosen people. Ageek of priests. Yeah.