June 18, 2025 • 45 mins
The exploration of the interplay between progressive theology and Pentecostal thought emerges as a central theme in this discourse with Dr. Bruce Epperly. He articulates that unity, often perceived as elusive within the contemporary Christian landscape, is inherently present through the workings of the Holy Spirit. Dr. Epperly draws upon his extensive background as a congregational pastor and professor to underscore the significance of embracing diverse spiritual experiences. He posits that such inclusivity not only enhances theological discourse but also fosters a more profound sense of community among disparate Christian traditions. The dialogue invites listeners to reflect on their own spiritual journeys and consider how they might contribute to a more unified expression of faith amidst diversity.
The engaging discourse between Joshua Noel, TJ Blackwell, and Dr. Bruce Epperly in this episode delves into the nuanced interplay between progressive theology and the charismatic movement. It commences with a profound examination of scriptural texts, notably John 14, which underscores the imperative of love manifested through adherence to divine commandments. This theological lens paves the way for a rich exploration of unity within the Christian community, despite the manifold divisions that often characterize contemporary religious contexts. Dr. Epperly posits that unity is an inherent reality, existing regardless of human constructs of division, and asserts that the Holy Spirit actively works to bind believers together in a profound and transcendent communion.
As the discourse unfolds, Dr. Epperly articulates his perspective on process theology, emphasizing the relational nature of God, who is dynamically engaged in the ebb and flow of human experiences. This theological approach stands in stark contrast to more static interpretations of divine sovereignty, advocating for a vision of God who responds to the unfolding narrative of creation. He elucidates how this perspective allows for the acceptance of diverse spiritual expressions, including practices traditionally associated with Pentecostalism, thereby enriching the collective understanding of God's presence in the world. Dr. Epperly's insights challenge listeners to reconsider the boundaries that often separate different faith traditions, advocating for a more inclusive approach to spirituality.
The dialogue culminates in a compelling call to action, urging listeners to cultivate humility and active listening as foundational practices for fostering unity among Christians. Dr. Epperly encourages engagement with diverse theological perspectives, emphasizing the importance of recognizing the shared spiritual journey that connects all believers. By embracing a posture of openness and receptivity, he believes communities can foster a deep sense of belonging and solidarity, ultimately reflecting the inclusive nature of divine love. This episode not only invites reflection on the potential for reconciliation within the church but also serves as a poignant reminder of the transformative power of love and acceptance in the Christian faith.
Takeaways:
- Dr. Bruce Epperly's extensive background in theology and ministry enriches the podcast's exploration of progressive theology.
- The conversation emphasizes the inherent unity among Christians, as articulated through the lens of the Holy Spirit's influence.
- Process theology presents a dynamic relationship with God, suggesting that divine revelation occurs continually in every moment.
- Epperly argues for inclusivity within the Christian faith, advocating for the acceptance of diverse spiritual experiences and expressions.
- The podcast highlights the historical evolution of the charismatic movement and its potential convergence with progressive Christian thought.
- Unity amid diversity is a key theme, reflecting that the Holy Spirit fosters...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:27):
John 14, 15, 21 in theChristian Standard Bible say, if
you love me, you will keep my commands.
And I will ask the Father andHe will give you another counselor
to be with you forever.
He is the Spirit of truth.
The world is unable to receivehim because it doesn't see him or
know Him.
But you do know him because heremains with you and will be in you.
(00:48):
I will not leave you as orphans.
I am coming to you.
In a little while, the worldwill no longer see me, but you will
see me.
Because I live.
You will live too.
On that day, you will knowthat I am in my Father.
You are in Me, and I am in you.
The one who has my commandsand keeps them is the one who loves
me.
And the one who loves me willbe loved by my Father.
(01:09):
I also will love him and willreveal myself to Him.
In this section of Scripture,Jesus is speaking with the disciples
about his leaving and and thecoming of the comforter, his ascension.
Dr.
Bruce Epperly, in what way doyou think we might have unity in
one another through His Spirit today?
Well, that's a wonderfulquestion, because at first glance
(01:32):
it seems as if there's verylittle unity, both in the political
and theological and religious worlds.
I think first of all, if webegin with the Spirit, unity already
exists whether or not we areaware of it, and unity already exists
whether or not we choose it.
You know, if we think of Acts2, the coming of the Holy Spirit
(01:57):
in Acts, is that the unity isthere, the unity is there, the revelation
is there, the Spirit is movingand inspiring us, and sometimes we're
aware of it.
So I think we first have to bebegin with saying unity exists, unity
exists.
And there in quotes, there'snothing we can do about it.
We are united whether we likeit or not.
(02:19):
We are part of this fabric ofdestiny, as Martin Luther King says,
and it's a spiritual destiny.
And I don't think the HolySpirit is, I want to say, stingy
in its revelation.
I think, as the Celticspirituality guides would say, in
(02:42):
every newborn face, you cansee the face of God.
That being the case, God is everywhere.
And of course, good Christiantheology says that God is omnipresent
and omniactive.
You're either present oryou're not.
And God's spirit, God'swholeness is present in us.
Certainly there's always beendivision in the Christian movement.
(03:04):
It's certainly you can see theevolution of the Christian movement
from the very beginning inActs of the Apostles, where they
were struggling to figure outhow many people and how many groups
should be included and calledfirst class Christians.
And of course the Spirit movedto say what's to hinder?
(03:25):
What's to hinder Cornelius forbeing part and his family for being
part of the family of God.
What's to hinder a eunuch fromEthiopia to being part of the family
of God?
What's to hinder the Greeksand the non Jews from being part
of the family of God?
(03:45):
I think we're the ones thatcreate disunity, not God.
I think one of the marks ofthe Holy Spirit is unity.
Unity amid diversity.
Unity amid diversity.
The Holy Spirit doesn't wanteverything to look the same.
The Holy Spirit loves diversity.
But it's always grounded in unity.
(04:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good stuff.
Hey everybody.
Welcome to the Whole Church podcast.
We are excited for another fun episode.
Today we will be talking with Dr.
Bruce Epperley.
We're going to be kind ofdiscussing this tension between churches
(04:28):
that are embracing themovements of the Holy Spirit and
churches that are acceptingand loving towards all and whether
or not why don't we see moreprogressive churches that are more
spiritual.
And of course to do this Ihave to have my co host, the one
and only, the one after whomstrength, the word strength actually
(04:48):
came from the first timeanyone beheld the image of TJ Tiberius
1 Blackwell.
How's it going?
Right, Right.
You may have memories of atime 26 and a day ago where you thought
you knew the word strength.
That was not true.
That's.
That's manufactured memories.
Yeah, we're here today with.
Yeah, we're here today withBruce Everly at Dr.
(05:09):
Rev.
Dr.
Bruce Everly, I believe.
Yes.
Bruce Everly served over 45years as a university chaplain, Congregational
pastor, seminaryadministrator, and university and
seminary professor.
Prior to concluding his fulltime ministry at South Congregational
Church, UCC Barnstable, MA In2021, Bruce served in various administrative,
(05:31):
pastoral and academic roles atLancaster Theological Seminary, Wesley
Theological Seminary,Claremont School of Theology and
Georgetown University.
He was ordained in 1980 inChristian Church, which was Disciples
of Christ and has jointstanding with the United Church of
Christ.
He currently is the theologianin residence at Westmoreland Congregational
United Church of Christ inBethesda, Maryland and remains on
(05:54):
faculty at Wesley School ofTheology or Wesley Theology Seminary
Theological Seminary.
Sorry, I'm all tied up Todayin Washington, D.C.
as an adjunct professor in theareas of theology, spirituality and
healing and wholeness.
Bruce has authored over 80books in theology, spirituality,
healing and wholeness,scripture and clergy well Being,
(06:15):
including the Elephant IsRunning Process and Open and Relational
theology.
And Religious Pluralism, theJubilee Years Embracing Clergy Retirement
center In a cyclone, 21stcentury clergy self Care, Francis
of Assisi From Privilege toActivism, Mystics in Action, 12 Saints
for Today, Prophetic Healing,Howard Thurman's Vision of Contemplative
(06:39):
Activism, 101 Soul Seeds forGrandparents Working for a Better
World and 101 Soul Seeds for ajoyful retirement.
He his most recent books arethe God of Whitehead and Tail Art
on Metaphysics, Mysticism andMission, Head Heart and An Introduction
to St.
Bonaventure Homegrown MysticsRestoring the Spirit of Our Nation
(07:01):
through the Wisdom ofAmerica's Visionaries, Saving Progressive
Christianity to Save thePlanet and God of the Growing Edge,
Whitehead and Thurman onTheology, Spirituality, and Social
Change in retirement, Brucedescribes his life as spacious, meaningful
and busy enough.
His days are filled with writing.
He's got six more booksplanned over the next few years,
so you've got a Sandersonianwriting schedule here.
(07:24):
He's preparing for and leadingclasses and talks.
He's mentoring pastors, seminarians.
He's walking, watching Britishmysteries, reading and spending time
with his wife, Reverend Dr.
Catherine Gould Epperly, andhis grandchildren who live in the
neighborhood.
He wakes up eager at 4:30amfor today's Holy adventure, which
always includes an afternoonnap, which is a schedule we could
(07:45):
all only hope for.
On occasion, he does a parttime ministry for congregations focusing
on theological reflection,preaching, teaching and reviving
congregation spirits.
He is committed to creating asustainable world for his grandchildren
and future generations,hospitality and welcoming of immigrants
and asylum seekers, humanrights for all, and the realizing
(08:07):
of the beloved community onearth as it is in heaven.
Boy, I'm tired just having yourecite that.
I think I need a nap now.
We could all use a nap, but.
I'll try to hang in there foranother 40 minutes or so.
Right.
So if you're listening, checkout the Onza Podcast Network website.
(08:29):
The link is below and thereare paid subscriptions you can use
to support us.
If you don't want to wear the merch.
If you think the church logois too cheesy, like a certain consultant
once said when someone came upwith it, you can support us on Captivate
Apple Me Podcast.
I might have.
No, I'm pretty sure I did.
(08:49):
But it looks good.
Yeah, so you should buy one.
You like it on captivate.comthe whole church.
Your exact words were I likeit, I wouldn't wear it, but like
the church.
It's called Whole Church Podcast.
What else are we going to puton there an apple.
As long as it all.
Apple.
You definitely did say something.
You definitely use the line ofwhat else are we going to put on
there?
(09:09):
An apple.
I remember that.
An apple is good.
Yeah, but an apple a day keepsbad theology away.
Well, after this maybe we'llhave a shirt with an apple for.
For those who want it.
But better yet than a snake, I suppose.
Right?
But one thing we like toalways do, the first thing we like
to do on our show, HolySacrament of Unity, which is a silliness
(09:32):
because you can't be arguing,you can't be in division when you're
being as silly as I like to be.
So our silly question for the day.
TJ and I only first give youtime to think about it.
Dr.
Epperly, which high fantasycharacter would make for the most
entertaining beach vacation companion?
Pretty sure I wrote thisoutline while I was on a vacation
at a beach.
(09:53):
So I'll answer first because Ijust think taking Thorin Oakenshield
with me would be fantastic.
It would just be so funny.
Well, I think you just takeeverything way too serious.
I suppose that being of acertain age, I might take Gandalf
or Dumbledore with me.
They're wise companions.
(10:13):
Would be fun.
They're wise companions.
We could sit in our beachchairs, have an umbrella, speak great
words, perhaps smoke a cigar,enjoy a beach cocktail.
Now again, of the younger set,I think Hermione Granger I'd invite
over because she simply is ahigh spirited person.
(10:38):
And as a college professor andas teacher of young people, she'd
be a fun person to mentor astrong female, a spirited female
to mentor toward, you know,seeking the light and you know, battling
in a holy way, the.
Or a challenging way.
(10:58):
The forces of destruction inour world.
I chose Legolas.
I think I could teach him todo anything on the beach.
And I think it'd be cool tosee him skim board, bocce ball.
I feel like he'd be unfairlygood at.
That's the kind of competitionI like to strive for.
So yeah, meanwhile, me and Thor.
I'm not sure you get Gondolphor Dumbledore at volleyball, beach
(11:22):
volleyball, but maybe you cando that in your beach robe.
I don't know.
Yeah, maybe.
So before we get into our maintopic, you mentioned to us being
a process theologian.
We've had other process guyson before, but we were curious if
you could give us your quickelevator pitch on process thought
for any of our listeners thatmight not be familiar.
(11:44):
Well, sure, and we'll have totake you probably to at least the
seventh floor, maybe or theeighth day of creation.
I'll just bring it down simplysince I've always tried to write
in my speaking voice and tryto explain things that may seem complicated
in daily language for me at least.
(12:08):
And I'm not the one who speaksfor all process theologians that
process theology seesrelationship, interdependence, creativity,
companionship, freedom asessential to our life and God's life.
That God is present at eachmoment of experience calling us forward,
(12:32):
that God is present in everymoment of experience, calling us
forward toward belovedcommunity, toward a vision of beauty,
that God and the world are inrelationship so that God always matters
to us and we matter to God.
There's no pre programmed intothe universe in some level, but that
(12:55):
we're indeed companioning God,ideally in healing the world or bringing
about the best possible world.
I think agency is key.
In contrast to some views of God.
Process theology would suggestthat the more that we do, the more
that we do, the more God isable to do in our world.
(13:19):
It's not a zero sumrelationship, it's a yes and relationship.
And in many ways I thinkprocess theology, we're about the
sixth floor now.
Process theology mirrors thebiblical vision perhaps more accurately
than some of the traditional theologies.
(13:40):
Because at least as I read theBible, God is interacting with the
world.
God's asking people to move forward.
God has tremendous knowledgeof the world, but new things happen
that God responds to that calland response.
And in response and call,that's at least the first stab at
(14:03):
it.
Yeah.
All right, so how do you thinkthis kind of thought might make it
either easier or moredifficult for greater reconciliation
among other Christiantradition to might think differently?
Well, yeah, I think that's animportant one.
I think that one area ofcourse that process theology may
(14:23):
be problematic to some peopleis that the world is open ended,
that there's free play in theuniverse, that we are part of a process
that shapes God's involvementin the universe.
That there's no pre programmedday of judgment that's going to happen
two weeks from now.
(14:45):
That that God is constantlycreative, that the living God is
constantly creative andresponding to the world.
You know, I think at one levelthat's good theology.
I mean, when we're praying, wewant to believe that our prayers
make a difference to God.
When we're doing something toshare the good news, when we're doing
(15:09):
something to make make theworld a better place, we want to
believe that God is knowingthis and is responding to this, you
know, an area in which, youknow, obviously process theology
differs from some theologiesis that the world is continuing,
(15:30):
that it's not all been decidedin advance.
And in fact, the matter is, Ithink that makes God a living God.
A God that has decidedeverything in advance and is sort
of like Groundhog Day.
The same things are constantlyin God's experience and nothing changes.
I think a living God has to bemuch more inventive than we do.
(15:51):
A living God may not bedetermining everything, but there's
no limit to what God can doover the historical process of the
universe.
I think when people speak ofGod having decided everything advanced,
they're really at some leveltalking about a finite God.
It's done, even though theymight say otherwise, it's done and
(16:14):
it can be no more from process thought.
There's always more that Godcan do in the world.
God can always do a new thing.
God's mercies as I could startpreaching here, God's mercies are
new every morning.
And I've been a preacher for45 years.
So I think theology isn't ofmuch use if it can't be preached
(16:34):
either.
I agree with that.
So Joshua and I, we both grewup Pentecostal.
And you mentioned to us beforethat you are fond of the Christian
mystic thinking and the morespiritual focus of traditions like
Pentecostalism.
How might this kind ofspiritual and mystic focus be compatible
with the process theology?
Well, I think it can be quite compatible.
(16:57):
I think one of the challengesin our experiential and theological
worlds are that we have anarrow sense of what's permissible
in various traditions.
You know, I don't myselfexperience glossolalia or speaking
in tongues.
However, I get caught up inthe Spirit.
I go to a traditional church,but I'm an amen speaker.
(17:21):
And I feel the raise my handevery so often.
And singing a hymn, I startsinging sometimes not usually done
among God's frozen chosen, butI sometimes sing in my sermons.
If the Spirit moves me, youcan preach a progressive sermon and
live a progressive life.
(17:42):
And the thing about processtheology, from my perspective, it
privileges all sorts ofspiritual experiences.
Many people, when theyexperience the gift of the Spirit
of speaking in tongues, aretaken out of themselves into a moment
of transcendence.
Other people find thatsomething equivalent to that in being
(18:03):
at a Quaker meeting.
And I've been to many.
I used to be at regularly theQuaker meeting in Claremont, California,
when I was a seminarian andgrad student.
And somebody will get up inthe middle of the service and say,
God spoke to me.
And of course, the Quakers gottheir name, the Friends got their
name because they quakedbefore God.
(18:25):
And you know, it's interestingbecause some of the gifts of the
Spirit are the experiences of mystics.
They feel that God has spokento them.
They have visual experiencesof the holy.
They have visions.
Of course, again, that's.
I think our problem is that wehave stereotypes of what religious
(18:45):
traditions can be and we havestereotypes of what's allowed and
what isn't allowed.
Historically, I think some ofthe great Christians may have had
very low temperaturespiritualities, while others had
very warm spiritualities.
(19:05):
And I think process theologyprivileges all of those.
God works in those who speakin tongues, those who lay on hands.
People certainly receive revelations.
I've gotten those.
I hear occasionally.
Half a dozen of my books camefrom hearing a voice telling me I
should write this.
(19:27):
And the non rational or thetrans rational is part of our experience.
When all the great religionsbegan with some sort of transcendent
experience.
Whether it's a burning bush orthe encounter of Isaiah with God
in the temple or Jesus in thewilderness, or even if you want to
go outside our tradition,Buddha sitting under the bow tree
(19:51):
and experiencing illuminationor enlightenment.
The world is a grand place.
We can't limit ourselveseither to the emotional or the intellectual.
Why not both?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, so thinking along thelines of process thought, one of
the things since you mentionedBuddhism that's really interesting
(20:12):
is Siddhartha, the story.
Siddhartha, traditionally he'svery skinny because he went through
all the fast and stuff.
And it wasn't till stories ofthe Buddha went to China that they
started building the fatBuddha that a lot of people associate
with it.
And it's just that ability tosay, hey, this is what works here.
This is what's meaningfulhere, what images work in this area.
And thinking all of ourreligious traditions do that to an
(20:33):
extent.
We're just less aware of itsometimes and maybe be more aware
of it could be more helpful.
You mentioned a lot of how youthink this works really well with
Pentecostalism and the movingof the Spirit, that kind of stuff
with.
With your process theology.
I'm not a process guy myself,but I'm close.
I was curious though, why doyou think we do tend to see the people,
(20:55):
the churches that are moreSpirit focused tend to be more fundamentalist
rather than more progressive,given how you've laid this out.
And it's interesting becauseof course, Pentecostalism has had
a ambivalent relationshiptoward fundamentalism you know, in
the Pentecostal tradition,there have been a lot of women preachers,
(21:16):
right.
And they felt God's call to ministry.
And regardless of whether youcited a few passages from Paul, which
I believe aremisinterpretations, by the way they
said, God's called me.
God's called me.
I think that probably.
(21:36):
And of course, there are anumber of Pentecostal ministers who've.
Who I've encountered and I'veheard of, who've felt a revelation
of God in such a way that theybecame universalists.
And again, believing that thegifts of the Spirit are not reserved
to a particular time, place or tradition.
(21:57):
I think probably we all needto break down the walls that we have
in our traditions.
And as I might say, thatPentecostalism could do well in breaking
down some of the walls towardopenness to other and other ways
of encountering God.
Of course, the same applies tomy tradition.
(22:19):
We certainly have lots ofwalls we need to break down, too,
as to what's appropriate in worship.
I mean, I think in my churchof somebody that I attend, if somebody
spoke in tongues, it certainlywould be during the service.
It would be quite a surprise.
And I, of course, introducedhealing ministries in our churches.
(22:40):
And I understand it perhaps alittle differently than Oral Roberts
would.
I'm more of a naturalist healer.
I think God's created awonderful universe in which divine
power works within your cellas well as your souls.
So it's not uncommon for me toseem a little bit Pentecostal.
If somebody's having aproblem, I say, can I pray with you?
(23:04):
You know, can I pray for your healing?
And I don't claim to know whatthat's going to be, but, you know,
and I.
Can I lay hands on you?
Can I put, you know, thedivine energy of love flows everywhere.
And I think that we oftentimesaren't as imaginative as we should
(23:25):
be.
We're the ones, again, I thinkof that wonderful word from the.
From Acts of the Apostles thatappeared several times.
It's like the word immediatelythat appears often in the Gospel
of Mark, Acts, the apostles.
It's unhindered, and thegospel was unhindered.
We're the ones that hinder the gospel.
(23:47):
The gospel, I think, breaksdown the limitations that we place
upon it.
So one could easily be auniversalist and also speak in tongues.
One could also be auniversalist and be part of a healing
ministry, believe that peoplecan receive revelations.
And of course, you check themwith your community, you know, to
(24:11):
say that, you know, Are theseof God or are these revelations of
my ego of a lower power?
We can be progressive intheology and recognize that not all
spirits are good.
You know, I think, you know,that we live in a vast world in which
not all the forces in theworld are on our side.
(24:32):
Even in the political world,sometimes we can see the mass hysteria
of groups that seem to beturning away from what is good toward
division.
Yeah, yeah.
And I am one of those weirdosthat speak in tongues.
Belief Jesus is the only wayto salvation and also universalism.
So, you know.
Well, yeah, and it's all whereyou locate Jesus on that, that spectrum.
(24:56):
If you think that the God inChrist finds a way for everyone and
that there's no, you know, asa friend of mine has on, had a T
shirt that says, you know, Godloves me and there's nothing I can
do about it.
Or Paul had his own version.
Nothing can separate us fromthe love of God, even our unbelief.
(25:17):
You know, God has a lot of patience.
Yeah.
You know, God has a lot ofpatience with humankind individually
and corporately.
And I don't think God everquits calling us towards salvation.
There's no limit to God's callin our world, either in length or
breadth or height or.
Or time.
Yeah, yeah.
(25:38):
You know, I heard it somewhere.
It's like all sinned in atomsand just so all are alive in Christ
or something.
Yeah.
You know, it might be in theBible, maybe.
I.
I've heard that before.
And, you know, it's that oldquestion, you know, what do you mean
by all?
I mean, that's.
Yeah.
You know, that's, you know,all kind of means all.
(25:58):
And we can't explain a way.
That question of awe as beingan aberration.
If we privilege otherscriptures that suggest that there's
going to be a cleardemarcation, we also have to have
the all or Christ will be allin all, as the apostle Paul said.
Or God is the reality in whomwe live and move and have our being.
(26:21):
I mean, we can find passagesthat are.
And I see judgment is real inthe world.
Judgment is real.
I don't think that we.
We go through our lives and doanything we want and there's no consequence.
I believe in my own notion ofsurvival after death, that we continue
(26:46):
to be called by God beyond thegrave and we have to come to terms
with our lives.
If we don't have personalidentity in heaven, if we lack personal
identity in heaven, thenwhat's heaven meaning, you know,
and who I am as Bruce Epperlyis my history of successes and failures,
of joy and sorrow, of graceand sin.
(27:09):
And I believe I'll have an accounting.
And, you know, I think thatthe accounting will be grounded in
grace and restoration, not retribution.
Yeah.
So what are some of the othermain questions that you think people
might want to know about youor process theology or spiritual
(27:31):
reality or your 80ish books?
Well, yeah, that's a good question.
I think that, you know, thequestions that many people have,
I think, are, how can I beactive in changing the world?
Point one, from where I'msitting, and even if I live in Washington,
(27:56):
D.C.
and I know personally and havetaught personally, people who are
on the news have known andspent time with a few presidents
and presidential candidates.
And yet some of them, and manyof us say, in a time that's troubled
now, what can I do?
I don't feel like I have anypower at all.
(28:17):
And one of the things Irespond is, well, you have the power
of responding where you are.
Again, I think it's theTerress of Lisieux, who was a mystic
who lived in the turn of thecentury, was a very humble person.
She was an influence onDorothy Day, the great social activist
and Catholic worker.
(28:37):
But Teresa of Lisieux lived tobe only about 30 years old and was
more or less unproductive inher life for a variety of reasons.
But she said, I do ordinarythings with extraordinary love.
If we can't save the planet asa totality, we can save the.
The part of the planet we're in.
I think Jewish wisdom suggeststhat if you save the soul, a soul,
(29:02):
it's as if you've saved the universe.
I think that's pretty generous.
I think we have to save theworld moment by moment by moment
by moment.
I think another question thatpeople have now is, especially in
the political realm, is howcan I be involved in healing the
nation without hating the onesI disagree with?
(29:23):
I mean, if anythingcharacterizes the American political
world now, it's aoverabundance of hate for people
that are different than us, anoverabundance of people of hate.
And that, you know, while Ithink some of my MAGA friends have
made that a true spiritualdiscipline of hate, it's also on
(29:43):
the left side of the street, too.
I'm a follower of one of myteachers was Howard Thurman, the
great African American mystic.
And he believed one of thementors of Martin Luther King.
And Thurman believed that wehave to challenge those we perceive
(30:04):
to be oppressors.
But we also have to challengethem for the sake of their souls
as well as our own, thatinjustice hurts our souls.
And that as we challengesomebody's political viewpoints,
we need also to see that theyare God's children, too.
(30:24):
We need to see that they'reGod's children.
We may still keep the heat up,but we don't do it in a way that
diminishes them, dehumanizethem, or destroys them.
I quote regularly that song bythe who.
I can't think of the name, butI know the quote.
Here comes the maybe it's Iwon't be, we won't be fooled again.
Maybe that's it.
Here comes, Here comes the newboss, just like the old boss.
(30:48):
That is, if we have thepolitics of division and hate or
the theologies of division andhate, when we get into power, we'll
use those to destroy ouropponents, regardless of how well
intended we are.
I'm sure that Chairman Mao hadgreat intentions, but the Cultural
Revolution was highly destructive.
(31:09):
I'm sure that Stalin had great intentions.
I'm sure that many Christiansin the United States have great intentions.
But when they neglect theholiness of the person right in front
of you, and I think that's oneof the aspects of universalism.
If God's revelation is to allof us, neither Jew nor Greek, male
(31:30):
nor female, slave nor free,old nor young, then all of those
categories are holy categories.
And we have to act, and I keepreminding myself, too, we have to
act as if God's holiness is inthe folks we disagree with most.
I mean, those are questionsthat come to me often.
(31:51):
You know, I ponder the wholequestion of the Second Coming.
And I, of course, grew up in aworld in which, you know, many people
assume that Jesus was comingnext week or the week after or two
weeks from now.
And they have one thing in common.
They've universally been wrong.
(32:12):
The what I prefer is amillisecond coming softly and tenderly.
I mean, I'm an old hymnsinger, so softly and tenderly Jesus
is calling each moment of theday Jesus is calling.
The coming of Christ can'tjust be once, sometime way in the
future.
It has to be now.
The call what does Paul say?
(32:34):
Now is the time of salvation.
You know, the minute you stepon the path.
I'm starting to preach here, Irealize, but the minute you step
on the path, you're there,you're there.
You don't have to worry aboutwhat happens on July 14, 2025.
All the signs of the times arepointing to that right or Some other
day.
(32:54):
But this is the day that Godhas made.
Yeah, yeah, right.
I think we're really findingout here is that there is a wide
open door for Bruce Everly tostart the charismatic process movement.
Yeah, well, you know, one ofthe things.
I wrote a little book onceupon a time.
It's called Process Theologyand the Revival we need.
(33:14):
And it was inspired by themovie the Jesus Revolution, if you
remember that movie.
And I wasn't being highlycritical of it, but I grew up in
the Bay area in the 1960s and70s, and while I was in a different
place than in quotes, Jesusfreaks of the time, that was a term
they referred to themselves.
(33:35):
I'm not using a diminutive orderogative, although I once stumbled
upon a Christian being in the60s where people raised their hands
up in the air and saidmaranatha as part of rapture practice.
I was just trying to go to seea Grateful Dead concert in Golden
Gate park, and I came upon the wrong.
Love in and be in.
But, you know, what would havehappened if the Jesus movement had
(34:00):
been welcomed and embraced bymore progressive churches rather
than Calvary Chapel?
What would have happened?
Because, you know, a lot ofpeople, and I'm using people like
Doug Padgett.
I don't know if you know Doug Padgett.
Good evangelical or ex evangelical.
He's still evangelical.
My book, you know, became aChristian and then realized there
was a bait and switch, youknow, that God was love.
(34:22):
Until you went to church andthen discovered all these footnotes.
What if there had been a widertheology that welcomed the Jesus
movement?
What if.
And that was a terrible mistake.
I think that in not reachingout to the Jesus movement from more
progressive and mainstreamchurches, we didn't have a good theology
(34:45):
of evangelism because we feltthat evangelism involved sort of
cornering people and sellingthem something that they may or may
not have wanted.
Proselytizing when evangelismis hospitality and welcome and adapting
ourselves to bring them in andshare the good news that God loves
you.
Yeah, yeah.
(35:05):
Nothing you can do about it.
Yeah.
Oh, man, yeah.
Something my papa always say Ilove you Ain't nothing you can do
about it.
But we also have a friend onour network.
So one of the other shows, theSome Joyful Noises podcast.
Christian Ashley, who is moreconservative, did an episode of Reviewing
(35:26):
the song Jesus Freak and heactually talks about the.
Some of the history of wherethat term came from.
Really interesting.
For those who want to checkthat out, I highly recommend.
But Dr.
Epperly, you know, one thing we.
We always like to do on ourshow before we wrap up, we like to
ask our guests if they couldprovide a single tangle action that
would help better engenderChristian unity.
(35:46):
A lot about the spirit.
And early on, you kind ofmentioned how we're already one in
the spirit.
I want to make it a little bitmore poignant.
What is something practical ortangible that our listeners could
call do right this second thatwould help them be more part of that
spirit that already unites us?
I think that's a key issue,and we're wrestling with this in
our church right now.
(36:08):
Wrestling because I go to avery progressive congregation and
a number of the people in ourchurch are trying.
How do we reach out to moreconservative churches?
There must be some commonground between us that we can reach
out and get beyond the divide.
For me, I think, first of all,it comes with a sense of humility,
(36:32):
you know, recognizing that wedon't have all the answers, that
the far horizon of truth isGod's truth, and we have to be, first
of all, humble.
I think the second is to lookbeyond the slogans.
Look beyond the slogans.
You know, many of ourChristian brothers and sisters who
(36:55):
we might disagree withpolitically are struggling with senses
of feelings ofdisenfranchisement, exclusion.
And we have to recognize that.
We have to recognize that.
I think we have to find theplaces we conjoined with one another
and be willing both to listenas well as to share.
(37:19):
I think among people who haveregular spiritual practices, there's
more common ground, maybebetween the prayers that might be
more mystically inclined andthe prayers that might be more Pentecostally
inclined.
Because in some sense, thenotion of transcendence is baked
into both of those.
(37:40):
The notion that there's moreto life than what meets the eye.
The notion that God is aliving God that's doing new things.
And, you know, if God'smercies are new every morning in
the context of God'sfaithfulness, then we can be open
to a new image.
So I'd say listening.
I'd say getting beyond thesense that we have all the answers,
(38:04):
trusting God and not our ownunderstandings of things.
Things.
Trusting that God has a biggervision in us and is calling us to
more.
Yeah, all right.
What.
What changes in the world ifeveryone starts listening and trusting,
like you say, if we all startattending the.
The Bruce Epperly universe andseeing each other as persons?
(38:25):
I mean, I think abstractions,whether we're dealing with sexual
identity or race or ethnicity,or a nation of origin.
If they're they.
If they're they, they'reabstractions, we can do anything
we want with them.
If they're concrete people whoare seeking the same wholeness deep
down as we are, as Augustinewould say, our hearts are restless,
(38:48):
all of ours, then, by gum, wecan see that we're really deep down
still on a similar journey tofaith and God's in our lives.
All right, I like that.
So before we wrap up, wealways like to do what we call the
God moment, which is where wejust ask if you've seen God recently
or where you've seen Godrecently, whether that be in a moment
(39:10):
of worship or a blessing or achallenge or whatever it might be.
And I always make Josh gofirst to give the rest of us enough
time to think about our Godmoment for the week.
So, Josh, do you have Godmoment for us?
Yeah, yeah.
A few different ones.
I'm trying to figure out whichone I'll stick with.
I'm going to stick with this weekend.
(39:30):
I already mentioned him earlier.
Christian Ashley.
He does a bunch of podcaststuff with us.
He's on systematic ecologywith us.
Our friendship basically justdates back to the moment I realized
he also liked Doctor who.
And just time to time, we getto watch it together.
Yeah.
There you are.
Yeah.
Not very often being so farapart, you know, physically.
But this weekend, he's comingover for the season finale for this
(39:53):
current season that I've been loving.
And I have challenged myselfbecause I love to cook, to not worry
about if it's weird or not, tomake a really good dinner for me
and my old college buddyinstead of like, oh, we'll get take
out like normal guys.
Actually, I want to make areally good dinner.
That's my plan.
Some steak, some potato au gratin.
(40:14):
Have some stuff.
I'm doing the same thingtonight when we're done here.
Oh, I thought you were goingto say this weekend.
You're like, actually, I pre Saturday.
So I'm coming.
Yeah, I'm showing up.
Yeah.
Which, I mean, you can.
But I used to work.
But.
But I'll go next.
Dr.
Epperly for me.
I just turned 26 yesterday.
(40:36):
What?
Yeah, yeah, Big day, man.
I am Quarternarian.
Yeah, there you are.
Past it.
But.
And it's not different, but Ialways thought people were joking
when they were like, one dayyou're gonna wake up and everything's
gonna be sore.
And that's how you know youmade it.
And I didn't think 26 was thenumber I thought the number was gonna
(41:00):
come way later.
I mean, you work in food, sothat probably sped the process up
a little bit.
Yeah, you know, I thought Ihad a few more years before I was
waking up.
My whole body was sore, buthere we are.
Sucks, doesn't it?
Yeah, it does.
Well, it's just a one off years.
On you, I think, TJ So I wouldsay that the again, one of my reasons,
(41:27):
besides the fact I've alwaysbeen an early riser for going out
on a saunter in the morning,is just simply to note the beauty
of it all.
I live in suburban Washington, D.C.
and I try to go out before itgets busy.
So.
(41:47):
And we have woods around our home.
And as I'm walking on a trailthrough the woods around our home,
you know, just noticing,listening, how are the birds this
morning?
And at least one of my morningmantras is from the psalmist.
This is the day that God hasmade and I will rejoice and be glad
(42:12):
in it.
The sense that again, I'm abig adherent of the book of Philippians.
I think it's one of the greatbooks in scripture.
I wrote a book on Philippians.
One of the other claims tofame I have is I do a weekly lectionary
for the Adventurous Lectionaryon Patheos.
But I've also ventured out ofmy comfort zone.
(42:35):
I've written about 12 books onthe Bible and a couple on Philippians.
And Paul is in prison and hewrites Philippians and he says, you
know, rejoice.
Again, I say, rejoice.
And of course, he's in theprison cell in Philippi and he is
singing and praying.
And I think as long as we havea song in our heart and joy in our
(42:58):
heart, the powers that wemight feel are upon us, cannot defeat
us.
How can we keep from singing?
All right, so, yeah.
Amen.
Was that your God moment todayor you had.
That was my God moment.
All right.
I love the beauty of the day.
And the beauty even it's.
(43:19):
I'm 46 years older than you,so you've got a few.
God 72.
The sense that I woke up, I'malive, I'm moving, I'm thinking,
I'm seeing, I'm breathing.
What more could I ask fortoday than that?
Yeah.
Hey, no one has put the beautyof the world as their God moment
(43:40):
more than I have.
Yes.
I get a lot more chances thanmost people, but still.
Yeah.
So thanks for your time.
It's not cheating.
Thank you for your time,Reverend Dr.
Bruce Gordon.
Epperly one day, hopefully myname might be.
That's what my mama called me.
So Bruce will work, right?
One day my name might be that long.
We'll see.
(44:02):
If you're listening, youenjoyed the episode.
Please consider sharing with afriend, share with an enemy, share
with your cousins.
And if you're listening onYouTube, hit like hit subscribe.
I would greatly appreciate that.
Yeah, yeah.
Also want to encourage youguys to listen to some of the other
shows on the Amazaw podcast network.
We mentioned before somejoyful noises.
So check that out.
Since I mentioned ChristianAshley a few times, I'm going to
(44:24):
say check his podcast out.
Let nothing move you from fora more conservative take on the Bible.
But if you want a moreprogressive take on the Bible, you
can also listen to the Bibleafter hours.
Same network and as a podcastnetwork, all those shows there, it's
a lot of fun.
Check it out and we hope, wehope you enjoyed it.
Next week we're going to betalking with Brian Wrecker to discuss
his Instagram reels on churchdogma and his new book Hellbent.
(44:45):
After that we're going to haveon Dr.
Leo Robinson, Pastor Will Roseand pending Ryan do to just discuss
the similarities between scifi stories, apocalypse stories and
eschatology in the church.
And then we're going to beinterviewing Dr.
Pete Link and Dr.
Edward Gravely about theirtextbook Bible 101.
Finally, at the end of seasonone, Francis Chan will be on the
(45:05):
show.
Hopefully if anyone tells himabout it.
If he ever gets invited, hemight accept that.
Yeah, if someone sends him an invitation.
He'S worth the conversation, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So someone should invite himto the show and then he might show
up.
Needs to invite him onto our show.
And we'll talk to him, not us.
Can't be bothered.
Yeah, too much work.
John 14, 15, 21 in theChristian Standard Bible say, if
you love me, you will keep my commands.
And I will ask the Father andHe will give you another counselor
to be with you forever.
He is the Spirit of truth.
The world is unable to receivehim because it doesn't see him or
know Him.
But you do know him because heremains with you and will be in you.
(00:48):
I will not leave you as orphans.
I am coming to you.
In a little while, the worldwill no longer see me, but you will
see me.
Because I live.
You will live too.
On that day, you will knowthat I am in my Father.
You are in Me, and I am in you.
The one who has my commandsand keeps them is the one who loves
me.
And the one who loves me willbe loved by my Father.
(01:09):
I also will love him and willreveal myself to Him.
In this section of Scripture,Jesus is speaking with the disciples
about his leaving and and thecoming of the comforter, his ascension.
Dr.
Bruce Epperly, in what way doyou think we might have unity in
one another through His Spirit today?
Well, that's a wonderfulquestion, because at first glance
(01:32):
it seems as if there's verylittle unity, both in the political
and theological and religious worlds.
I think first of all, if webegin with the Spirit, unity already
exists whether or not we areaware of it, and unity already exists
whether or not we choose it.
You know, if we think of Acts2, the coming of the Holy Spirit
(01:57):
in Acts, is that the unity isthere, the unity is there, the revelation
is there, the Spirit is movingand inspiring us, and sometimes we're
aware of it.
So I think we first have to bebegin with saying unity exists, unity
exists.
And there in quotes, there'snothing we can do about it.
We are united whether we likeit or not.
(02:19):
We are part of this fabric ofdestiny, as Martin Luther King says,
and it's a spiritual destiny.
And I don't think the HolySpirit is, I want to say, stingy
in its revelation.
I think, as the Celticspirituality guides would say, in
(02:42):
every newborn face, you cansee the face of God.
That being the case, God is everywhere.
And of course, good Christiantheology says that God is omnipresent
and omniactive.
You're either present oryou're not.
And God's spirit, God'swholeness is present in us.
Certainly there's always beendivision in the Christian movement.
(03:04):
It's certainly you can see theevolution of the Christian movement
from the very beginning inActs of the Apostles, where they
were struggling to figure outhow many people and how many groups
should be included and calledfirst class Christians.
And of course the Spirit movedto say what's to hinder?
(03:25):
What's to hinder Cornelius forbeing part and his family for being
part of the family of God.
What's to hinder a eunuch fromEthiopia to being part of the family
of God?
What's to hinder the Greeksand the non Jews from being part
of the family of God?
(03:45):
I think we're the ones thatcreate disunity, not God.
I think one of the marks ofthe Holy Spirit is unity.
Unity amid diversity.
Unity amid diversity.
The Holy Spirit doesn't wanteverything to look the same.
The Holy Spirit loves diversity.
But it's always grounded in unity.
(04:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good stuff.
Hey everybody.
Welcome to the Whole Church podcast.
We are excited for another fun episode.
Today we will be talking with Dr.
Bruce Epperley.
We're going to be kind ofdiscussing this tension between churches
(04:28):
that are embracing themovements of the Holy Spirit and
churches that are acceptingand loving towards all and whether
or not why don't we see moreprogressive churches that are more
spiritual.
And of course to do this Ihave to have my co host, the one
and only, the one after whomstrength, the word strength actually
(04:48):
came from the first timeanyone beheld the image of TJ Tiberius
1 Blackwell.
How's it going?
Right, Right.
You may have memories of atime 26 and a day ago where you thought
you knew the word strength.
That was not true.
That's.
That's manufactured memories.
Yeah, we're here today with.
Yeah, we're here today withBruce Everly at Dr.
(05:09):
Rev.
Dr.
Bruce Everly, I believe.
Yes.
Bruce Everly served over 45years as a university chaplain, Congregational
pastor, seminaryadministrator, and university and
seminary professor.
Prior to concluding his fulltime ministry at South Congregational
Church, UCC Barnstable, MA In2021, Bruce served in various administrative,
(05:31):
pastoral and academic roles atLancaster Theological Seminary, Wesley
Theological Seminary,Claremont School of Theology and
Georgetown University.
He was ordained in 1980 inChristian Church, which was Disciples
of Christ and has jointstanding with the United Church of
Christ.
He currently is the theologianin residence at Westmoreland Congregational
United Church of Christ inBethesda, Maryland and remains on
(05:54):
faculty at Wesley School ofTheology or Wesley Theology Seminary
Theological Seminary.
Sorry, I'm all tied up Todayin Washington, D.C.
as an adjunct professor in theareas of theology, spirituality and
healing and wholeness.
Bruce has authored over 80books in theology, spirituality,
healing and wholeness,scripture and clergy well Being,
(06:15):
including the Elephant IsRunning Process and Open and Relational
theology.
And Religious Pluralism, theJubilee Years Embracing Clergy Retirement
center In a cyclone, 21stcentury clergy self Care, Francis
of Assisi From Privilege toActivism, Mystics in Action, 12 Saints
for Today, Prophetic Healing,Howard Thurman's Vision of Contemplative
(06:39):
Activism, 101 Soul Seeds forGrandparents Working for a Better
World and 101 Soul Seeds for ajoyful retirement.
He his most recent books arethe God of Whitehead and Tail Art
on Metaphysics, Mysticism andMission, Head Heart and An Introduction
to St.
Bonaventure Homegrown MysticsRestoring the Spirit of Our Nation
(07:01):
through the Wisdom ofAmerica's Visionaries, Saving Progressive
Christianity to Save thePlanet and God of the Growing Edge,
Whitehead and Thurman onTheology, Spirituality, and Social
Change in retirement, Brucedescribes his life as spacious, meaningful
and busy enough.
His days are filled with writing.
He's got six more booksplanned over the next few years,
so you've got a Sandersonianwriting schedule here.
(07:24):
He's preparing for and leadingclasses and talks.
He's mentoring pastors, seminarians.
He's walking, watching Britishmysteries, reading and spending time
with his wife, Reverend Dr.
Catherine Gould Epperly, andhis grandchildren who live in the
neighborhood.
He wakes up eager at 4:30amfor today's Holy adventure, which
always includes an afternoonnap, which is a schedule we could
(07:45):
all only hope for.
On occasion, he does a parttime ministry for congregations focusing
on theological reflection,preaching, teaching and reviving
congregation spirits.
He is committed to creating asustainable world for his grandchildren
and future generations,hospitality and welcoming of immigrants
and asylum seekers, humanrights for all, and the realizing
(08:07):
of the beloved community onearth as it is in heaven.
Boy, I'm tired just having yourecite that.
I think I need a nap now.
We could all use a nap, but.
I'll try to hang in there foranother 40 minutes or so.
Right.
So if you're listening, checkout the Onza Podcast Network website.
(08:29):
The link is below and thereare paid subscriptions you can use
to support us.
If you don't want to wear the merch.
If you think the church logois too cheesy, like a certain consultant
once said when someone came upwith it, you can support us on Captivate
Apple Me Podcast.
I might have.
No, I'm pretty sure I did.
(08:49):
But it looks good.
Yeah, so you should buy one.
You like it on captivate.comthe whole church.
Your exact words were I likeit, I wouldn't wear it, but like
the church.
It's called Whole Church Podcast.
What else are we going to puton there an apple.
As long as it all.
Apple.
You definitely did say something.
You definitely use the line ofwhat else are we going to put on
there?
(09:09):
An apple.
I remember that.
An apple is good.
Yeah, but an apple a day keepsbad theology away.
Well, after this maybe we'llhave a shirt with an apple for.
For those who want it.
But better yet than a snake, I suppose.
Right?
But one thing we like toalways do, the first thing we like
to do on our show, HolySacrament of Unity, which is a silliness
(09:32):
because you can't be arguing,you can't be in division when you're
being as silly as I like to be.
So our silly question for the day.
TJ and I only first give youtime to think about it.
Dr.
Epperly, which high fantasycharacter would make for the most
entertaining beach vacation companion?
Pretty sure I wrote thisoutline while I was on a vacation
at a beach.
(09:53):
So I'll answer first because Ijust think taking Thorin Oakenshield
with me would be fantastic.
It would just be so funny.
Well, I think you just takeeverything way too serious.
I suppose that being of acertain age, I might take Gandalf
or Dumbledore with me.
They're wise companions.
(10:13):
Would be fun.
They're wise companions.
We could sit in our beachchairs, have an umbrella, speak great
words, perhaps smoke a cigar,enjoy a beach cocktail.
Now again, of the younger set,I think Hermione Granger I'd invite
over because she simply is ahigh spirited person.
(10:38):
And as a college professor andas teacher of young people, she'd
be a fun person to mentor astrong female, a spirited female
to mentor toward, you know,seeking the light and you know, battling
in a holy way, the.
Or a challenging way.
(10:58):
The forces of destruction inour world.
I chose Legolas.
I think I could teach him todo anything on the beach.
And I think it'd be cool tosee him skim board, bocce ball.
I feel like he'd be unfairlygood at.
That's the kind of competitionI like to strive for.
So yeah, meanwhile, me and Thor.
I'm not sure you get Gondolphor Dumbledore at volleyball, beach
(11:22):
volleyball, but maybe you cando that in your beach robe.
I don't know.
Yeah, maybe.
So before we get into our maintopic, you mentioned to us being
a process theologian.
We've had other process guyson before, but we were curious if
you could give us your quickelevator pitch on process thought
for any of our listeners thatmight not be familiar.
(11:44):
Well, sure, and we'll have totake you probably to at least the
seventh floor, maybe or theeighth day of creation.
I'll just bring it down simplysince I've always tried to write
in my speaking voice and tryto explain things that may seem complicated
in daily language for me at least.
(12:08):
And I'm not the one who speaksfor all process theologians that
process theology seesrelationship, interdependence, creativity,
companionship, freedom asessential to our life and God's life.
That God is present at eachmoment of experience calling us forward,
(12:32):
that God is present in everymoment of experience, calling us
forward toward belovedcommunity, toward a vision of beauty,
that God and the world are inrelationship so that God always matters
to us and we matter to God.
There's no pre programmed intothe universe in some level, but that
(12:55):
we're indeed companioning God,ideally in healing the world or bringing
about the best possible world.
I think agency is key.
In contrast to some views of God.
Process theology would suggestthat the more that we do, the more
that we do, the more God isable to do in our world.
(13:19):
It's not a zero sumrelationship, it's a yes and relationship.
And in many ways I thinkprocess theology, we're about the
sixth floor now.
Process theology mirrors thebiblical vision perhaps more accurately
than some of the traditional theologies.
(13:40):
Because at least as I read theBible, God is interacting with the
world.
God's asking people to move forward.
God has tremendous knowledgeof the world, but new things happen
that God responds to that calland response.
And in response and call,that's at least the first stab at
(14:03):
it.
Yeah.
All right, so how do you thinkthis kind of thought might make it
either easier or moredifficult for greater reconciliation
among other Christiantradition to might think differently?
Well, yeah, I think that's animportant one.
I think that one area ofcourse that process theology may
(14:23):
be problematic to some peopleis that the world is open ended,
that there's free play in theuniverse, that we are part of a process
that shapes God's involvementin the universe.
That there's no pre programmedday of judgment that's going to happen
two weeks from now.
(14:45):
That that God is constantlycreative, that the living God is
constantly creative andresponding to the world.
You know, I think at one levelthat's good theology.
I mean, when we're praying, wewant to believe that our prayers
make a difference to God.
When we're doing something toshare the good news, when we're doing
(15:09):
something to make make theworld a better place, we want to
believe that God is knowingthis and is responding to this, you
know, an area in which, youknow, obviously process theology
differs from some theologiesis that the world is continuing,
(15:30):
that it's not all been decidedin advance.
And in fact, the matter is, Ithink that makes God a living God.
A God that has decidedeverything in advance and is sort
of like Groundhog Day.
The same things are constantlyin God's experience and nothing changes.
I think a living God has to bemuch more inventive than we do.
(15:51):
A living God may not bedetermining everything, but there's
no limit to what God can doover the historical process of the
universe.
I think when people speak ofGod having decided everything advanced,
they're really at some leveltalking about a finite God.
It's done, even though theymight say otherwise, it's done and
(16:14):
it can be no more from process thought.
There's always more that Godcan do in the world.
God can always do a new thing.
God's mercies as I could startpreaching here, God's mercies are
new every morning.
And I've been a preacher for45 years.
So I think theology isn't ofmuch use if it can't be preached
(16:34):
either.
I agree with that.
So Joshua and I, we both grewup Pentecostal.
And you mentioned to us beforethat you are fond of the Christian
mystic thinking and the morespiritual focus of traditions like
Pentecostalism.
How might this kind ofspiritual and mystic focus be compatible
with the process theology?
Well, I think it can be quite compatible.
(16:57):
I think one of the challengesin our experiential and theological
worlds are that we have anarrow sense of what's permissible
in various traditions.
You know, I don't myselfexperience glossolalia or speaking
in tongues.
However, I get caught up inthe Spirit.
I go to a traditional church,but I'm an amen speaker.
(17:21):
And I feel the raise my handevery so often.
And singing a hymn, I startsinging sometimes not usually done
among God's frozen chosen, butI sometimes sing in my sermons.
If the Spirit moves me, youcan preach a progressive sermon and
live a progressive life.
(17:42):
And the thing about processtheology, from my perspective, it
privileges all sorts ofspiritual experiences.
Many people, when theyexperience the gift of the Spirit
of speaking in tongues, aretaken out of themselves into a moment
of transcendence.
Other people find thatsomething equivalent to that in being
(18:03):
at a Quaker meeting.
And I've been to many.
I used to be at regularly theQuaker meeting in Claremont, California,
when I was a seminarian andgrad student.
And somebody will get up inthe middle of the service and say,
God spoke to me.
And of course, the Quakers gottheir name, the Friends got their
name because they quakedbefore God.
(18:25):
And you know, it's interestingbecause some of the gifts of the
Spirit are the experiences of mystics.
They feel that God has spokento them.
They have visual experiencesof the holy.
They have visions.
Of course, again, that's.
I think our problem is that wehave stereotypes of what religious
(18:45):
traditions can be and we havestereotypes of what's allowed and
what isn't allowed.
Historically, I think some ofthe great Christians may have had
very low temperaturespiritualities, while others had
very warm spiritualities.
(19:05):
And I think process theologyprivileges all of those.
God works in those who speakin tongues, those who lay on hands.
People certainly receive revelations.
I've gotten those.
I hear occasionally.
Half a dozen of my books camefrom hearing a voice telling me I
should write this.
(19:27):
And the non rational or thetrans rational is part of our experience.
When all the great religionsbegan with some sort of transcendent
experience.
Whether it's a burning bush orthe encounter of Isaiah with God
in the temple or Jesus in thewilderness, or even if you want to
go outside our tradition,Buddha sitting under the bow tree
(19:51):
and experiencing illuminationor enlightenment.
The world is a grand place.
We can't limit ourselveseither to the emotional or the intellectual.
Why not both?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, so thinking along thelines of process thought, one of
the things since you mentionedBuddhism that's really interesting
(20:12):
is Siddhartha, the story.
Siddhartha, traditionally he'svery skinny because he went through
all the fast and stuff.
And it wasn't till stories ofthe Buddha went to China that they
started building the fatBuddha that a lot of people associate
with it.
And it's just that ability tosay, hey, this is what works here.
This is what's meaningfulhere, what images work in this area.
And thinking all of ourreligious traditions do that to an
(20:33):
extent.
We're just less aware of itsometimes and maybe be more aware
of it could be more helpful.
You mentioned a lot of how youthink this works really well with
Pentecostalism and the movingof the Spirit, that kind of stuff
with.
With your process theology.
I'm not a process guy myself,but I'm close.
I was curious though, why doyou think we do tend to see the people,
(20:55):
the churches that are moreSpirit focused tend to be more fundamentalist
rather than more progressive,given how you've laid this out.
And it's interesting becauseof course, Pentecostalism has had
a ambivalent relationshiptoward fundamentalism you know, in
the Pentecostal tradition,there have been a lot of women preachers,
(21:16):
right.
And they felt God's call to ministry.
And regardless of whether youcited a few passages from Paul, which
I believe aremisinterpretations, by the way they
said, God's called me.
God's called me.
I think that probably.
(21:36):
And of course, there are anumber of Pentecostal ministers who've.
Who I've encountered and I'veheard of, who've felt a revelation
of God in such a way that theybecame universalists.
And again, believing that thegifts of the Spirit are not reserved
to a particular time, place or tradition.
(21:57):
I think probably we all needto break down the walls that we have
in our traditions.
And as I might say, thatPentecostalism could do well in breaking
down some of the walls towardopenness to other and other ways
of encountering God.
Of course, the same applies tomy tradition.
(22:19):
We certainly have lots ofwalls we need to break down, too,
as to what's appropriate in worship.
I mean, I think in my churchof somebody that I attend, if somebody
spoke in tongues, it certainlywould be during the service.
It would be quite a surprise.
And I, of course, introducedhealing ministries in our churches.
(22:40):
And I understand it perhaps alittle differently than Oral Roberts
would.
I'm more of a naturalist healer.
I think God's created awonderful universe in which divine
power works within your cellas well as your souls.
So it's not uncommon for me toseem a little bit Pentecostal.
If somebody's having aproblem, I say, can I pray with you?
(23:04):
You know, can I pray for your healing?
And I don't claim to know whatthat's going to be, but, you know,
and I.
Can I lay hands on you?
Can I put, you know, thedivine energy of love flows everywhere.
And I think that we oftentimesaren't as imaginative as we should
(23:25):
be.
We're the ones, again, I thinkof that wonderful word from the.
From Acts of the Apostles thatappeared several times.
It's like the word immediatelythat appears often in the Gospel
of Mark, Acts, the apostles.
It's unhindered, and thegospel was unhindered.
We're the ones that hinder the gospel.
(23:47):
The gospel, I think, breaksdown the limitations that we place
upon it.
So one could easily be auniversalist and also speak in tongues.
One could also be auniversalist and be part of a healing
ministry, believe that peoplecan receive revelations.
And of course, you check themwith your community, you know, to
(24:11):
say that, you know, Are theseof God or are these revelations of
my ego of a lower power?
We can be progressive intheology and recognize that not all
spirits are good.
You know, I think, you know,that we live in a vast world in which
not all the forces in theworld are on our side.
(24:32):
Even in the political world,sometimes we can see the mass hysteria
of groups that seem to beturning away from what is good toward
division.
Yeah, yeah.
And I am one of those weirdosthat speak in tongues.
Belief Jesus is the only wayto salvation and also universalism.
So, you know.
Well, yeah, and it's all whereyou locate Jesus on that, that spectrum.
(24:56):
If you think that the God inChrist finds a way for everyone and
that there's no, you know, asa friend of mine has on, had a T
shirt that says, you know, Godloves me and there's nothing I can
do about it.
Or Paul had his own version.
Nothing can separate us fromthe love of God, even our unbelief.
(25:17):
You know, God has a lot of patience.
Yeah.
You know, God has a lot ofpatience with humankind individually
and corporately.
And I don't think God everquits calling us towards salvation.
There's no limit to God's callin our world, either in length or
breadth or height or.
Or time.
Yeah, yeah.
(25:38):
You know, I heard it somewhere.
It's like all sinned in atomsand just so all are alive in Christ
or something.
Yeah.
You know, it might be in theBible, maybe.
I.
I've heard that before.
And, you know, it's that oldquestion, you know, what do you mean
by all?
I mean, that's.
Yeah.
You know, that's, you know,all kind of means all.
(25:58):
And we can't explain a way.
That question of awe as beingan aberration.
If we privilege otherscriptures that suggest that there's
going to be a cleardemarcation, we also have to have
the all or Christ will be allin all, as the apostle Paul said.
Or God is the reality in whomwe live and move and have our being.
(26:21):
I mean, we can find passagesthat are.
And I see judgment is real inthe world.
Judgment is real.
I don't think that we.
We go through our lives and doanything we want and there's no consequence.
I believe in my own notion ofsurvival after death, that we continue
(26:46):
to be called by God beyond thegrave and we have to come to terms
with our lives.
If we don't have personalidentity in heaven, if we lack personal
identity in heaven, thenwhat's heaven meaning, you know,
and who I am as Bruce Epperlyis my history of successes and failures,
of joy and sorrow, of graceand sin.
(27:09):
And I believe I'll have an accounting.
And, you know, I think thatthe accounting will be grounded in
grace and restoration, not retribution.
Yeah.
So what are some of the othermain questions that you think people
might want to know about youor process theology or spiritual
(27:31):
reality or your 80ish books?
Well, yeah, that's a good question.
I think that, you know, thequestions that many people have,
I think, are, how can I beactive in changing the world?
Point one, from where I'msitting, and even if I live in Washington,
(27:56):
D.C.
and I know personally and havetaught personally, people who are
on the news have known andspent time with a few presidents
and presidential candidates.
And yet some of them, and manyof us say, in a time that's troubled
now, what can I do?
I don't feel like I have anypower at all.
(28:17):
And one of the things Irespond is, well, you have the power
of responding where you are.
Again, I think it's theTerress of Lisieux, who was a mystic
who lived in the turn of thecentury, was a very humble person.
She was an influence onDorothy Day, the great social activist
and Catholic worker.
(28:37):
But Teresa of Lisieux lived tobe only about 30 years old and was
more or less unproductive inher life for a variety of reasons.
But she said, I do ordinarythings with extraordinary love.
If we can't save the planet asa totality, we can save the.
The part of the planet we're in.
I think Jewish wisdom suggeststhat if you save the soul, a soul,
(29:02):
it's as if you've saved the universe.
I think that's pretty generous.
I think we have to save theworld moment by moment by moment
by moment.
I think another question thatpeople have now is, especially in
the political realm, is howcan I be involved in healing the
nation without hating the onesI disagree with?
(29:23):
I mean, if anythingcharacterizes the American political
world now, it's aoverabundance of hate for people
that are different than us, anoverabundance of people of hate.
And that, you know, while Ithink some of my MAGA friends have
made that a true spiritualdiscipline of hate, it's also on
(29:43):
the left side of the street, too.
I'm a follower of one of myteachers was Howard Thurman, the
great African American mystic.
And he believed one of thementors of Martin Luther King.
And Thurman believed that wehave to challenge those we perceive
(30:04):
to be oppressors.
But we also have to challengethem for the sake of their souls
as well as our own, thatinjustice hurts our souls.
And that as we challengesomebody's political viewpoints,
we need also to see that theyare God's children, too.
(30:24):
We need to see that they'reGod's children.
We may still keep the heat up,but we don't do it in a way that
diminishes them, dehumanizethem, or destroys them.
I quote regularly that song bythe who.
I can't think of the name, butI know the quote.
Here comes the maybe it's Iwon't be, we won't be fooled again.
Maybe that's it.
Here comes, Here comes the newboss, just like the old boss.
(30:48):
That is, if we have thepolitics of division and hate or
the theologies of division andhate, when we get into power, we'll
use those to destroy ouropponents, regardless of how well
intended we are.
I'm sure that Chairman Mao hadgreat intentions, but the Cultural
Revolution was highly destructive.
(31:09):
I'm sure that Stalin had great intentions.
I'm sure that many Christiansin the United States have great intentions.
But when they neglect theholiness of the person right in front
of you, and I think that's oneof the aspects of universalism.
If God's revelation is to allof us, neither Jew nor Greek, male
(31:30):
nor female, slave nor free,old nor young, then all of those
categories are holy categories.
And we have to act, and I keepreminding myself, too, we have to
act as if God's holiness is inthe folks we disagree with most.
I mean, those are questionsthat come to me often.
(31:51):
You know, I ponder the wholequestion of the Second Coming.
And I, of course, grew up in aworld in which, you know, many people
assume that Jesus was comingnext week or the week after or two
weeks from now.
And they have one thing in common.
They've universally been wrong.
(32:12):
The what I prefer is amillisecond coming softly and tenderly.
I mean, I'm an old hymnsinger, so softly and tenderly Jesus
is calling each moment of theday Jesus is calling.
The coming of Christ can'tjust be once, sometime way in the
future.
It has to be now.
The call what does Paul say?
(32:34):
Now is the time of salvation.
You know, the minute you stepon the path.
I'm starting to preach here, Irealize, but the minute you step
on the path, you're there,you're there.
You don't have to worry aboutwhat happens on July 14, 2025.
All the signs of the times arepointing to that right or Some other
day.
(32:54):
But this is the day that Godhas made.
Yeah, yeah, right.
I think we're really findingout here is that there is a wide
open door for Bruce Everly tostart the charismatic process movement.
Yeah, well, you know, one ofthe things.
I wrote a little book onceupon a time.
It's called Process Theologyand the Revival we need.
(33:14):
And it was inspired by themovie the Jesus Revolution, if you
remember that movie.
And I wasn't being highlycritical of it, but I grew up in
the Bay area in the 1960s and70s, and while I was in a different
place than in quotes, Jesusfreaks of the time, that was a term
they referred to themselves.
(33:35):
I'm not using a diminutive orderogative, although I once stumbled
upon a Christian being in the60s where people raised their hands
up in the air and saidmaranatha as part of rapture practice.
I was just trying to go to seea Grateful Dead concert in Golden
Gate park, and I came upon the wrong.
Love in and be in.
But, you know, what would havehappened if the Jesus movement had
(34:00):
been welcomed and embraced bymore progressive churches rather
than Calvary Chapel?
What would have happened?
Because, you know, a lot ofpeople, and I'm using people like
Doug Padgett.
I don't know if you know Doug Padgett.
Good evangelical or ex evangelical.
He's still evangelical.
My book, you know, became aChristian and then realized there
was a bait and switch, youknow, that God was love.
(34:22):
Until you went to church andthen discovered all these footnotes.
What if there had been a widertheology that welcomed the Jesus
movement?
What if.
And that was a terrible mistake.
I think that in not reachingout to the Jesus movement from more
progressive and mainstreamchurches, we didn't have a good theology
(34:45):
of evangelism because we feltthat evangelism involved sort of
cornering people and sellingthem something that they may or may
not have wanted.
Proselytizing when evangelismis hospitality and welcome and adapting
ourselves to bring them in andshare the good news that God loves
you.
Yeah, yeah.
(35:05):
Nothing you can do about it.
Yeah.
Oh, man, yeah.
Something my papa always say Ilove you Ain't nothing you can do
about it.
But we also have a friend onour network.
So one of the other shows, theSome Joyful Noises podcast.
Christian Ashley, who is moreconservative, did an episode of Reviewing
(35:26):
the song Jesus Freak and heactually talks about the.
Some of the history of wherethat term came from.
Really interesting.
For those who want to checkthat out, I highly recommend.
But Dr.
Epperly, you know, one thing we.
We always like to do on ourshow before we wrap up, we like to
ask our guests if they couldprovide a single tangle action that
would help better engenderChristian unity.
(35:46):
A lot about the spirit.
And early on, you kind ofmentioned how we're already one in
the spirit.
I want to make it a little bitmore poignant.
What is something practical ortangible that our listeners could
call do right this second thatwould help them be more part of that
spirit that already unites us?
I think that's a key issue,and we're wrestling with this in
our church right now.
(36:08):
Wrestling because I go to avery progressive congregation and
a number of the people in ourchurch are trying.
How do we reach out to moreconservative churches?
There must be some commonground between us that we can reach
out and get beyond the divide.
For me, I think, first of all,it comes with a sense of humility,
(36:32):
you know, recognizing that wedon't have all the answers, that
the far horizon of truth isGod's truth, and we have to be, first
of all, humble.
I think the second is to lookbeyond the slogans.
Look beyond the slogans.
You know, many of ourChristian brothers and sisters who
(36:55):
we might disagree withpolitically are struggling with senses
of feelings ofdisenfranchisement, exclusion.
And we have to recognize that.
We have to recognize that.
I think we have to find theplaces we conjoined with one another
and be willing both to listenas well as to share.
(37:19):
I think among people who haveregular spiritual practices, there's
more common ground, maybebetween the prayers that might be
more mystically inclined andthe prayers that might be more Pentecostally
inclined.
Because in some sense, thenotion of transcendence is baked
into both of those.
(37:40):
The notion that there's moreto life than what meets the eye.
The notion that God is aliving God that's doing new things.
And, you know, if God'smercies are new every morning in
the context of God'sfaithfulness, then we can be open
to a new image.
So I'd say listening.
I'd say getting beyond thesense that we have all the answers,
(38:04):
trusting God and not our ownunderstandings of things.
Things.
Trusting that God has a biggervision in us and is calling us to
more.
Yeah, all right.
What.
What changes in the world ifeveryone starts listening and trusting,
like you say, if we all startattending the.
The Bruce Epperly universe andseeing each other as persons?
(38:25):
I mean, I think abstractions,whether we're dealing with sexual
identity or race or ethnicity,or a nation of origin.
If they're they.
If they're they, they'reabstractions, we can do anything
we want with them.
If they're concrete people whoare seeking the same wholeness deep
down as we are, as Augustinewould say, our hearts are restless,
(38:48):
all of ours, then, by gum, wecan see that we're really deep down
still on a similar journey tofaith and God's in our lives.
All right, I like that.
So before we wrap up, wealways like to do what we call the
God moment, which is where wejust ask if you've seen God recently
or where you've seen Godrecently, whether that be in a moment
(39:10):
of worship or a blessing or achallenge or whatever it might be.
And I always make Josh gofirst to give the rest of us enough
time to think about our Godmoment for the week.
So, Josh, do you have Godmoment for us?
Yeah, yeah.
A few different ones.
I'm trying to figure out whichone I'll stick with.
I'm going to stick with this weekend.
(39:30):
I already mentioned him earlier.
Christian Ashley.
He does a bunch of podcaststuff with us.
He's on systematic ecologywith us.
Our friendship basically justdates back to the moment I realized
he also liked Doctor who.
And just time to time, we getto watch it together.
Yeah.
There you are.
Yeah.
Not very often being so farapart, you know, physically.
But this weekend, he's comingover for the season finale for this
(39:53):
current season that I've been loving.
And I have challenged myselfbecause I love to cook, to not worry
about if it's weird or not, tomake a really good dinner for me
and my old college buddyinstead of like, oh, we'll get take
out like normal guys.
Actually, I want to make areally good dinner.
That's my plan.
Some steak, some potato au gratin.
(40:14):
Have some stuff.
I'm doing the same thingtonight when we're done here.
Oh, I thought you were goingto say this weekend.
You're like, actually, I pre Saturday.
So I'm coming.
Yeah, I'm showing up.
Yeah.
Which, I mean, you can.
But I used to work.
But.
But I'll go next.
Dr.
Epperly for me.
I just turned 26 yesterday.
(40:36):
What?
Yeah, yeah, Big day, man.
I am Quarternarian.
Yeah, there you are.
Past it.
But.
And it's not different, but Ialways thought people were joking
when they were like, one dayyou're gonna wake up and everything's
gonna be sore.
And that's how you know youmade it.
And I didn't think 26 was thenumber I thought the number was gonna
(41:00):
come way later.
I mean, you work in food, sothat probably sped the process up
a little bit.
Yeah, you know, I thought Ihad a few more years before I was
waking up.
My whole body was sore, buthere we are.
Sucks, doesn't it?
Yeah, it does.
Well, it's just a one off years.
On you, I think, TJ So I wouldsay that the again, one of my reasons,
(41:27):
besides the fact I've alwaysbeen an early riser for going out
on a saunter in the morning,is just simply to note the beauty
of it all.
I live in suburban Washington, D.C.
and I try to go out before itgets busy.
So.
(41:47):
And we have woods around our home.
And as I'm walking on a trailthrough the woods around our home,
you know, just noticing,listening, how are the birds this
morning?
And at least one of my morningmantras is from the psalmist.
This is the day that God hasmade and I will rejoice and be glad
(42:12):
in it.
The sense that again, I'm abig adherent of the book of Philippians.
I think it's one of the greatbooks in scripture.
I wrote a book on Philippians.
One of the other claims tofame I have is I do a weekly lectionary
for the Adventurous Lectionaryon Patheos.
But I've also ventured out ofmy comfort zone.
(42:35):
I've written about 12 books onthe Bible and a couple on Philippians.
And Paul is in prison and hewrites Philippians and he says, you
know, rejoice.
Again, I say, rejoice.
And of course, he's in theprison cell in Philippi and he is
singing and praying.
And I think as long as we havea song in our heart and joy in our
(42:58):
heart, the powers that wemight feel are upon us, cannot defeat
us.
How can we keep from singing?
All right, so, yeah.
Amen.
Was that your God moment todayor you had.
That was my God moment.
All right.
I love the beauty of the day.
And the beauty even it's.
(43:19):
I'm 46 years older than you,so you've got a few.
God 72.
The sense that I woke up, I'malive, I'm moving, I'm thinking,
I'm seeing, I'm breathing.
What more could I ask fortoday than that?
Yeah.
Hey, no one has put the beautyof the world as their God moment
(43:40):
more than I have.
Yes.
I get a lot more chances thanmost people, but still.
Yeah.
So thanks for your time.
It's not cheating.
Thank you for your time,Reverend Dr.
Bruce Gordon.
Epperly one day, hopefully myname might be.
That's what my mama called me.
So Bruce will work, right?
One day my name might be that long.
We'll see.
(44:02):
If you're listening, youenjoyed the episode.
Please consider sharing with afriend, share with an enemy, share
with your cousins.
And if you're listening onYouTube, hit like hit subscribe.
I would greatly appreciate that.
Yeah, yeah.
Also want to encourage youguys to listen to some of the other
shows on the Amazaw podcast network.
We mentioned before somejoyful noises.
So check that out.
Since I mentioned ChristianAshley a few times, I'm going to
(44:24):
say check his podcast out.
Let nothing move you from fora more conservative take on the Bible.
But if you want a moreprogressive take on the Bible, you
can also listen to the Bibleafter hours.
Same network and as a podcastnetwork, all those shows there, it's
a lot of fun.
Check it out and we hope, wehope you enjoyed it.
Next week we're going to betalking with Brian Wrecker to discuss
his Instagram reels on churchdogma and his new book Hellbent.
(44:45):
After that we're going to haveon Dr.
Leo Robinson, Pastor Will Roseand pending Ryan do to just discuss
the similarities between scifi stories, apocalypse stories and
eschatology in the church.
And then we're going to beinterviewing Dr.
Pete Link and Dr.
Edward Gravely about theirtextbook Bible 101.
Finally, at the end of seasonone, Francis Chan will be on the
(45:05):
show.
Hopefully if anyone tells himabout it.
If he ever gets invited, hemight accept that.
Yeah, if someone sends him an invitation.
He'S worth the conversation, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So someone should invite himto the show and then he might show
up.
Needs to invite him onto our show.
And we'll talk to him, not us.
Can't be bothered.
Yeah, too much work.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.