May 16, 2025 • 27 mins
In this special bonus episode of The Whole Church Podcast, co-host Joshua Noel engages in a profound dialogue with Mark Flower, the host of the podcast "Grub & Grace". The central theme of their conversation revolves around promoting Mark's podcast, "Grub & Grace". Mark elucidates how the verses from Deuteronomy, which speak of abundance and gratitude, serve as a foundational element in understanding our relationship with food today. The discussion delves into the significance of thankfulness for sustenance and the broader implications of food in spiritual practice. Together, they reflect on how these ancient texts resonate with contemporary faith experiences, inviting listeners to consider the profound connections between nourishment, gratitude, and divine provision.
The conversation between Joshua Noel and Mark Flower delves into the profound intersection of spirituality and culinary practices within the framework of faith. Flower elaborates on the significance of food in the ancient scriptures, particularly in Deuteronomy, where the Israelites are promised a land abundant with resources that nourish both body and spirit. This exploration of biblical narratives serves as a conduit for understanding contemporary expressions of gratitude and the role of communal meals in fostering a sense of belonging among believers. As Flower articulates, the modern practice of giving thanks before meals is deeply rooted in the theological acknowledgment of God's providence, thus linking past and present in the shared experience of nourishment. The episode further encourages listeners to appreciate the physical and spiritual sustenance provided by faith, suggesting that the essence of communal dining is not merely about the food itself but about the divine presence that permeates these gatherings.
Moreover, the dialogue pivots to the personal narratives that shape each speaker's faith journey. Mark Flower shares his own evolution within various Christian traditions, reflecting on how his academic experiences and societal upheavals, such as the COVID-19 pandemic, have influenced his understanding of faith and community. He discusses his podcast, 'Grub & Grace,' which seeks to explore food within biblical contexts while addressing broader societal issues like Christian nationalism and the complexities of modern spirituality. This reflective account serves as an invitation for listeners to engage with their own faith stories, fostering a culture of dialogue and exploration that transcends simplistic doctrinal divisions. Ultimately, the episode encapsulates the notion that the act of sharing food is an embodiment of grace, where each meal becomes an opportunity for connection, reflection, and spiritual growth.
Takeaways:
- The discussion emphasizes the significance of gratitude for the sustenance we receive from God, connecting it to ancient biblical texts.
- Mark Flower articulates how food serves as a medium of connection to faith and community in contemporary life.
- The podcast delves into the evolution of Mark's faith journey, highlighting the importance of questioning and exploring diverse beliefs.
- Listeners are encouraged to appreciate the richness of food in religious contexts, showing its relevance in both scripture and daily life.
- Mark Flower's experiences during Theology Beer Camp illustrate the transformative nature of community engagement in shaping one's faith.
- The conversation addresses broader themes of church unity and the complexities of modern belief systems, urging listeners to embrace nuanced perspectives.
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Check out Mark's podcast, "Grub & Grace":
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Read up on the investigation into the New Evangelicals:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:24):
Deuteronomy, chapter 8, verses7 through 10. For the Lord your God
is bringing you into a goodland. A land of streams, of water,
of fountains and springsflowing out in valleys and hills.
A land of wheat and barley, ofvines, fig trees and pomegranates.
A land of olive oil and honey.A land where you will eat without
shortage, in which you willnot lack anything. A land whose stones
(00:47):
are iron and of whose hillsyou can dig copper. When you have
eaten and are satisfied, youshall bless the Lord your God for
the good land which he hasgiven you. In this pericope scripture,
it's talking to the Israelitesabout the land they were promised,
the physical land that theywere about to walk into. A lot of
times in our New Testamentscriptures, we look back to the Old
(01:08):
Testament promises of an evengreater promise to come. It's interesting.
In the Christian context, wealways want to think about heaven
and earth after we die, but alot of those promises are for us
now in Christ. Mark Flower.This verse talks a lot about food.
What part do you think foodplays in the promises we have in
(01:30):
God even today?
I think just the thankfulnessthat we all have for the food that
we have. I mean, look at this.These verses right here. And although
it doesn't say outright, youknow, we thank you for this food
of barley and vines and figtrees, but I think there is an underlying
sense of things that it's Godthat provides. And we trust in God
(01:54):
so that we are thankful thatthis food is provided from our Creator,
our Redeemer, our one that welook towards. And I think there's
something so beautiful that wehave adopted into our own lives and
our own traditions today inthis modern world. And it's why we
say thanks at a dinner table.It's why we say prayers and give
(02:17):
that thanks and gratitudetowards God. So I think that's. That's
one of the big things withfood that we. We can attribute towards
God.
Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. Hey,everybody. Welcome to the whole Church
podcast. I got a surprisebonus for you. It's gonna be quick,
(02:38):
like 15, 20 minute thing.Chill. I know we said we're gonna
have a week off, but, youknow, we never really do a week off.
It's not what we do here.We're the whole church. We work hard.
We don't. I don't even editthese videos. It's fine. But I'm
not here with the reason forpodcasts. You know, TJ Tiberious
one, the pod Father, the Godof all pods. Insert other really
exaggerated things about thelore of TJ here, but I am here with,
(03:02):
with the the one who isbreaking bread for us all. On his
podcast Grubbing Grace, wehave the one and only host, Mark
Flower. Mark, how's it going, man?
It's going pretty good. Thanksfor having me on the show, man.
I'm excited for this. We'vebeen doing a couple episodes over
there on Grubbing Grace. I gotto guest with you talking about Christian
Taoism and then food in videogames, which turned out to be a way
(03:25):
longer episode than weexpected. But man, we've been having
fun talking about food andfaith and games and I think we touched
on Captain America a littlebit. You had Will on there talking
about Captain America more,but it's fine. It's not like he has
a shield in his office, butit's cool.
I'm always up for anotherCaptain America talk, so if you want
(03:45):
too, we can totally plananother one too.
Yeah, let's do it now. No, I'mjust kidding. I'm excited for this.
We're just going to kind ofintroduce you guys to what is Grubbing
Grace. Talk about it becauseit's a show I really love and I'm
passionate about. So I want toforce my listeners to hear Mark and
then be like, man, I want tohear more than have to go hit subscribe
wherever you listen to yourpodcast. Yeah, this is just blatant
(04:07):
manipulation, but it was goingto be a fun one. I don't usually
do TJ's parts, but I knowyou're supposed to go to like YouTube
or something and check out ourmerch store, that kind of stuff Hit
like subscribe. Etc. Check outother shows in the podcast network.
The Nozzle Podcast Network.Brandon Knight, Kung Fu Pizza Party.
Mark's been on his showrecently as well.
(04:28):
Brandon, awesome pizzatoppings with. With kung fu films
and kung fu actors.
God, it was great. Yeah, itinspired some other ideas for me
and I just. I have unlimitedideas for unfortunate reasons. I've
also been doing some stuff,some more unique stuff with Dummy
for theology. We might even berenaming that show to be Living Water.
(04:48):
I'm thinking about it. We'llsee. So guys, check that out. Let
me know what you think aboutthe name change if I do it. And then
what's another one? SystematicEcology recently had Brandon I over
on it to talk about JackieChan and Bruce Lee. So if you want
more Kung Fu, we'll just.We're eating up the Kung Fu content
right now in the food content.You know, so it's gonna be fun. You
(05:09):
guys know I have a holyspiritual practice we do for everything
over here, Even bonusepisodes, because I can't help it.
It's, of course, silliness. Wecan't have church unity without a
little bit of silliness. Idon't know if you know that. Yeah,
yeah, it's holy. But, Mark,today's silly question that I'm thinking
of as I speak. So I'm makingthis a really long sentence. I think
(05:32):
I got it. If you had to guesswhich sci fi world has the absolute
worst food, what's it. What'sit probably gonna be?
Oh, boy. I can tell you theone that's absolutely not gonna fall
in this category is Star Trek.They're gonna have the best food.
I was thinking the same thingbecause, like, they're like, they're
(05:54):
all about culture.
Oh, boy. I mean, Star Wars, Ifeel like, is always up there. You
got this, that blue milk.Nobody knows what the blue milk is.
People seem to like it in the world.
But have you had the blue milkin Galaxy's Edge?
No, I haven't.
It's so good, especially withrum. But I think that about most
(06:14):
things. I like rum and things.
Oh, boy. I'm blanking on a lotof other sci fi type of things. I
think anything in, like, kindof based on a reality. So not non
Star wars, non Star Trek, allthat kind of stuff, but more like,
like Event Horizon orsomething like that where it's, you
know, based in like, Alien orsomething like that where it's, you
(06:35):
know, a little bit more kindof level at home. I think anything
space, like, you know, thespace foods, I think. I think would
be probably on the lower end.I don't know. What do you think would
be a good, good sci fi?
This can be weird because Ithink it's technically our universe,
but I think this will probablyhave both the best and Worst Foods.
C.S. lewis's space trilogy,because you have planets that never
(06:58):
fell so that there's like,with completely without sin. They're
just doing life great. And Ibet those planets probably have some
killer food options, likegreat cuisine. And then you have
foods that are like planetsthat are like, even worse than ours
somehow that are ruled byangels that are like, I don't know,
I guess worse than Lucifer.I'm unsure. I bet one of those planets
have awful food and one ofthose planets have the best food.
(07:19):
So I'm thinking that'sprobably just the perfect answer.
You know, I think maybe even agood Place and bear with me on this.
So I don't think most peoplewould consider it a sci fi, but if
you think it is very, youknow, they have these different realms
of this afterlife that, youknow, takes place in the whole show.
(07:39):
And if you think, like, maybenot the current timeline within the
show, but there might beanother world where in order to torment
the people, they tell themthat the food, food is wonderful,
but it could be really bad.And in doing so, they're trying to,
like, manipulate and gaslightthem into thinking that they're actually
having really good food whenit actually they're really tormenting
them with really bad food.
Or it could be another, like,Eleanor situation where it's like,
(08:02):
oh, they mistook you and theythink you're accidentally in the
Good Place, but it's reallythe Bad Place. And you're, like,
trying to pretend like you'relike, whatever they think you are,
and they tell you you're agreat chef, and then all your food
always turns out awful, butyou have to eat it and act like it's
good. That would be great.Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. You know, I
like to do shop talk in thelittle episodes because that's not
(08:22):
what you're supposed to do.But we're gonna be doing a Good Place
episode on systematic ecology.I think next month. You should totally
join us for that. It's gonnabe fun.
Let me know.
I'm trying to get AaronSimmons to join us too, but I'll
get back on that. Cool. Fornow, Mark. So one of the things we
have found that helps withchurch unity is just kind of hearing
one another's story. So beforewe get into, like, what your podcast
(08:42):
is, would you kind of justbreak down, like, what's your faith
tradition? What's, like, whatdid you grow up in? And just kind
of where you find yourselfwith the church now. And maybe if
you could throw in how youstarted growing grace, we'll just
rant.
Okay. Where I stand right nowis I've got, like, a hodgepodge of
just ideas in my head, and I'mstill trying to figure out, like,
(09:04):
where I stand in belief. Andbelief I'm still very situated in,
you know, Jesus has died forour sins and, you know, the traditional
sense of that. But as far as,like, other faith traditions and,
you know, church life and allthat kind of stuff, and just the
(09:26):
ideas that the traditionalChristian belief should be in the
world, you know, what peopleexpect, I'm still working through
a lot of that and figuring outwhere I stand on some of these stances
and topics and that sort ofthing. I grew up in a very traditional
home. I wouldn't say it was,it was anything like, you know, extreme
(09:48):
ideas. It was just kind of,you know, following what, what, you
know, the church, the generalchurch kind of, you know, tells us
to live and, and they, youknow, examining the Bible and whatnot.
So I grew up in that sort ofenvironment. I started to kind of
question things when I, when Igot to college, I went to a very
conservative Christianuniversity. And so I was around a
(10:11):
plethora of people that were.That mindset, but there were also
a number of people that werequestioning things and really challenging
the status quo of Christendom.And so I think that kind of allowed
me to process things. But evenstill, at that point, I was just
kind of blase, just kind of,you know, going about life and not
really giving it too muchthought of that. I was, you know,
(10:32):
enjoying life, enjoyingcollege, join friendships and that
sort of thing. I think it wasreally, until a few years after I
got out of college andespecially during COVID too, where
just really like, you know,things just shook for me and I, I
came across one of thosesocial, social media pages, the,
the preachers and sneakers. Idon't know if you're familiar with
(10:52):
that one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It basically highlights allthese megachurch pastors and their
opulent wealth that they, thatthey put on full display, their,
their outward piety that theyshow. And it would show, you know,
the, the price tag for, fortheir particular shoes or jeans or,
you know, things that, thatthey, they have that they're wearing
during their sermons. And itreally just kind of shook me and
(11:13):
that, that Julie Roy's to theNew Evangelicals to. And then one,
one of my friends, April Ajoy,I went to, I went to school with
her and it opened the door toher podcast at the Evangelical Ish
at the time. But since she'sleft and joined the New Evangelicals.
But it opened up the door toall these people. And then, and then
I went to Theology Beer Camp.That's when I, when I, I think it
(11:37):
was the week before TheologyBeer Camp. I started posting my episodes
for Grub and Grace, but Ididn't start creating the content.
I think I started creatingabout two year and a half before
that time, before this lastfall. But I was kind of going about
it. The idea of, I wanted tofocus on food in the Bible, eating
(12:01):
food, harvesting food, allsorts of food, just food ideas in
the Bible. And so it would belike more of a deep dive. So I got
my guests talked about that,actually recorded a bunch of episodes.
And those are actually a lotof my earlier episodes are those
episodes that I created ayear, year and a half before I even
started releasing anything.And then since Theology Beer Camp,
(12:24):
you know, getting into thiscommunity of people that were also
questioning things andaccepting you for where you were
in your faith journey, nomatter what that looked like, it
just. It kind of allowed me tothink freely and allow myself to
kind of be myself on thepodcast and start creating content
(12:45):
that I wanted to create asopposed to what I felt like needed
to create. So that's kind ofwhere it sits right now. And so we've.
We've had conversations ofChristian nationalism. You know,
is it good for society? We'vehad talks about religious harm from
the church, and I had MikeMayashiro on there, and he's a. He's.
(13:05):
He used to be in the church,and he got ousted because they thought
he was gay at the time. Hewas. He's always gay. And he now
advocates for religious harmthat has been done by the church,
and he holds safe spaces forthat. So I have all these conversations
that are opened up to a lotmore broad topics as opposed to just
(13:29):
deep diving into the Bible. Sothat's kind of where everything stands
right now. For grubbing Grace.
Yeah. One thing I've lovedjust talking to you is kind of like
you're not fully liberal orconservative. You're very nuanced
on you thinking through stuff.Just like a lot of us where we're
not completely sure where weare, but we have ideas on different
things and we're kind ofwrestling with a lot of these ideas.
(13:50):
I'm doing a couple comments onstuff because there was a report
on Tim Winnaker when it comesto, like, the new evangelicals that
had to do with, like, abuse,but not like sexual abuse or anything
like that. I think it's morejust kind of behavioral issues. I'm
not 100% sure on the details,so I'm just throwing that out there,
like, because I don't knoweverything. I don't want to say that
I back the new evangelicalsbecause I just don't know everything.
(14:11):
So I'm not saying I don't backthem either.
But, I mean, I don't knowfully there, but from my understanding,
it was more of a disputebetween a freelance worker that he
had hired to do some workbehind the scenes for the show, and
he had pushed this worker alittle bit too hard, demanding things
and it caused some disputesand essentially just kind of spiraled
(14:37):
a little bit more out ofcontrol. And that's my understanding
of it. He has since come outwith an episode talking about this
and that. There's a reportthat you can find, and it's fully
available and transparent on,I think, their website. You can get
the link through there.
He said it was somewhere. Ican't find it anywhere, though. That's
the thing.
Okay.
Yeah. I'm sure you don't know.I got to do more research, but.
Yeah, contact orsomething@newevangeloals.com but
(15:00):
I don't.
Want the episode to becomeabout that. Just Mark seems to know
more about it than I do. Maybewe'll drop some links in here. I
just wanted to say I didn'tknow everything, so I didn't want
to be like, hey, I'm fully onboard. I'm certainly not against
them. I know what I've heardof April on different stuff. I think
she's amazing. So if you canget me in contact, I'd love to have
her on the show. She's cool,but, yeah, I'd still love.
(15:20):
To have her on my show, too. Ihaven't reached out yet about having
her on my show, but, yeah, Iwould love to. I think it'd be great,
too.
I do want to plug somebody. Iknow enough about that. I'm more
comfortable plugging,especially if you're on Instagram.
I don't know if he has apodcast, but Brian Wrecker, he does
a lot of stuff. Just kind ofshowing what's going on in the church
and kind of giving a reallynuanced progress. Nuanced progressive
(15:40):
perspective. Yeah. And justkind of how God's love is at work
in the church today andshowing some of the faults and some
of the evangelical stuff.We're a church unity podcast, you
know, we're not, like, againstchurch unity. For me, this Easter,
one of the most challengingthings is this ancient proverb that
I heard in a Canaan songthat's just stuck in my head of,
it's better to light a candlethan to curse the dark. And I'm like,
(16:01):
man, what does that look likein today's world when the ones who
are calling themselves alight, I think are the ones that's
casting shadows a lot of thetime. But, hey, we'll save that for
your next episode. When peoplego over there and listen to Christian
nationalism, they want to hearfrom you. They'll go over there,
they'll hear it all. Or checkout Brian Wrecker to do both of those
things. He's great. More also,like, your T shirt, I think, says
(16:24):
a lot too. You know, you're ared letter Christian, not a red hat
Christian. I love that. Butsince we're here to Talk about grubbing
Grace 3, I wanted you to talkabout. I wanted you to tell us a
little bit about the episodeyou had Will Rose on, because our.
Our followers are familiarwith him. Some of the episodes that
me and you did together. Andthen if you could just pick like
one episode that isn't one ofthose three, because, you know, I
don't want to feel like youhave to pick those or feel bad when
(16:46):
you don't pick those. That'sjust like an episode that stands
out to you. That's really, foryou, exemplifies what the show's
about. You just plug oneepisode, what that would be. You
want to walk through those.
Well, let's talk about Willfirst. So, yeah, I did an episode
talking about Captain America.Obviously, we mentioned that prior
here, but yeah, we had him on.We talked about the new Captain America
film that came out this year,the Brave New World. And we initially
(17:09):
started talking about thefilm, and then we got very into politics
and how it relates to theworld and all the things that kind
of go along with that. And Igot some good feedback from it. I
got some people saying, youknow, you brought up some really
good points on a lot of that.
The only thing is, y' all didnot like the movie enough. That's
the only problem.
Yeah, yeah.
But y' all can fix that. Fixyour opinion.
(17:30):
There were. There was goodthings and bad things about the film,
and I think there were aspectsof it that I'm really glad they did,
and there was aspects thatthey didn't. You listen to the whole.
So we can do that later. Also,for those who are wondering, I am
known as Josh with a badopinion. So I just.
Peace. And then, of course,Joshua, we had you on. We just recorded
one right before we were doingthis. And so that'll come out at
(17:51):
a later time. It usually takesabout a month or so to. To get episodes
out, usually with my scheduleand whatnot. But we have one out
right now on the, on the show.And we talk about Christian Taoism
and. Or Taoism, ChristianChristianity, however you say that.
But we talk about howChristianity and Taoism can, you
(18:11):
know, coexist in a. In a, youknow, beautiful union with each other
without interfering with thecore beliefs or of the thing. And
Taoism, you know, of Course,as you follow Joshua, you'll know
that it isn't actually areligion. It's more of a, like, spiritual
beliefs and spiritualpractice. So, yeah, we talk about.
Talk about all that, and weeven made some. Some dishes and some
(18:33):
food and had a good time withthat. So it was a lot of fun with
that. As far as a show thatreally encapsulates the Grub and
Grace show, I think myChristian Nationalism episode has
the most views on it. The oneshow that people talk about the most.
Like, if people say, you know,I listened to your show and I really
(18:55):
like this episode. It was theone with Nerdy Dan about AI and pop
culture. Yeah, I think that'sthe one that I get the most comments
on of, like, this was a funepisode. Like, I really love, and
I like the idea of AI Peopleare just interested in AI, so of
course they were drawn to thatepisode, but I get a lot of comments
on that, one, so. Yeah.
(19:17):
Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Well,man, before we do the stuff we usually
do to wrap up and everything,is there any one thing that you think
maybe we didn't ask about thatpeople would like to know about you,
your show, or anything that.Do we miss anything?
No. I mean, I try to open aspace for having dialogue, and I
(19:38):
try to practice activelistening. Not perfect at it, but
I'm. I'm trying. I'm trying toallow my mind open to, you know,
hear ideas and to reallylisten to people and. And to explore
all these different, you know,ideas and possibilities that people
bring up, as opposed to beingjust stuck in. In the gutter. Not
(20:01):
stuck in the gutter, stuck ina rut and in just, like, one way
of thinking about things. Andthe world is not black and white.
It's. It's multiple shades ofgray as well as a full rainbow of
colors. So I think it'sbeautiful to explore the world as
it is before us.
(20:22):
Hopefully our listeners areaware that one of the big things
for the network that we're apart of, Onaza podcast network, the
whole church is a part of, iswe don't want to be giving these
simple answers and theselittle quick little devotions. It's
like. Like there are othergood shows for those things. But
we're trying to ask the bigquestions. Whether it be, like, the
big questions of our fandomof, like, is Superman stronger than
the war? Because, like, youknow, that's a big question for some
(20:43):
people. There are implicationsto that. Or whether it's the big
question of, like, can we havechurch unity with Christian nationalists,
or can we have church unitywith people who disagree on LGBTQ
stuff? You know, we try to askbig questions on all of our shows,
and that's something that'simportant to me, is when someone's
willing to ask the bigquestions. For me, that's more important
than whether or not you'regetting a good answer or a correct
answer. You know, like, I'drather have a good question that
(21:05):
I can leave with. And that'ssomething I think Grubbing Grace
does really well. So I reallywant to recommend all of our listeners,
especially if you like ournetwork, I think you'll love the
Grubbing Grace show. So gocheck them out. And then one thing
we always do, we always askfor if anybody has a God moment.
And TJ makes me go first.Always. I mean, it's easy. We just
(21:27):
had Easter, right? So I thinkI already gave mine away. It's just
that proverb I heard in theCanaan Song. And then, like, I went
to my first Easter vigil thisyear where, like, you started the
campfire, and we're lightingmore and more lights as the service
progresses, going from outsideto the foyer to, you know, the sanctuary,
and just kind of seeing thelight and then thinking, like, you
(21:48):
know, it's not about cursingthe dark. It's not about, like, hey,
Donald Trump is evil. I thinkit's important that we say stuff
like that, that we are honestcalling evil evil, but cursing the
dark, being like, man, I hatethis. That doesn't do anything other
than create more darkness. Andthen thinking about, what does it
mean to be a light in thedark, that's a little bit harder.
So I guess mine's a challenge,and that's where I'm at. Mark, do
(22:09):
you have any God momentsyou've had recently?
I feel like I'm always havingGod moments. I always come into Revelations
and Revelations in the senseof uncovering information and learning.
And I think through all thesetopics I talk about with all my guests,
I think I'm constantly findinginformation that just really strikes
(22:33):
me and speaks to me. TheSunday before Easter, at our house
of worship, at the very end ofthe service, they did this special
choir type of moment. So thechoir is typically in their choir
(22:53):
areas, but this time, theybrought all the choir people into
the aisles around the church,and they started singing a song that
basically was asking thequestion, where were you when Jesus
was up on the cross? And theway they did it, it wasn't that everybody
was singing. It was that,like, one person was Singing at a
time and then another personon the opposite side of the sanctuary.
(23:14):
And then. And of course, youknow that. You know the size of the
sanctuary from theology beercamp. It's that church.
Yeah. Oh, wow.
And so the size of it and allthe people around in the aisles,
and people are like, you know,one at a time are singing these.
These verses and asking thequestion, like, where were you? And
there was just something sosolemn about it, and it was so powerful
(23:37):
and moving. It kind of broughtme to tears. And I'm thinking about.
I'm like, man, just rethinkingabout. This is one of those powerful
moments. And they just had.After they were done, they had everyone
leave in silence. And it wasone of those. Those just kind of.
It just moved me a lot. So Ithink that was probably my most recent
God moment that I had.
Yeah. Yeah, man. It's crazy.Where I had the Easter vigil. I went
(23:59):
to Pastor Will's church, and,you know, that's where they had a
theology boot camp, like, twoor three years ago, too. So we both
went to a theology beer camp church.
There you go.
For Easter. Yeah. One of thesongs they did that was cool. I think
it's the first time I everheard it is like, you know, it's
liturgical, so it's like areally short little chorus, basically.
But they were singing aboutdifferent stuff happening in the
Bible or, like, differentstuff that we might face. And then,
(24:22):
like, the congregation wouldgo, God's a gonna trouble the waters.
And it sounds a lot like smokeon the water to me for some reason,
but it was just cool because,you know, sometimes I tend to think
of, like, what can I do? Howam I being God in the world? And
it's kind of fun to kind ofjust think of, like, even though
this stuff is happening, God'sgonna trouble the waters. And I might
not know what that looks like.And I don't know. That to me, gave
(24:42):
me hope, because right now I'mlike, I can't see anything that I
can do. And to remember thatsometimes it isn't just about what
I can do. So, anyway, yeah, wecould go on forever. I love talking
to Mark. He's a great guy.Hope you guys enjoyed this episode.
If you did share it with afriend, enemy, cousin, one of those,
especially your cousins, youknow, I don't know what other things
(25:04):
TJ says. I always strugglewith this part, but if you don't
mind, maybe, like, rate andreview the show on a podcast on.
Yeah, Podchaser is cool, but Iwas trying to say Apple Podcasts
or Spotify. You can leave acomment on there now too. So let
us know what you think andmake sure you check out Mark Show
Grubbing Grace. Subscribe overthere as well. I think it's a wonderful
(25:25):
show. Of course, check outother shows in our network. We always
have to plug them. So thehomily with Pastor Will. We're gonna
try and get that Easter homilyup soon. Check out Let Nothing Movie
with Chris Nashley. You andbit more conservative take on the
Bible. Or if you want a moreprogressive take on the Bible, the
Bible After Hours has a goodone coming up, I hear. Or that probably
just happened. I don't know.Recording times are weird. But you
(25:47):
know, check all those showsout. It's a fun time. You coming
up soon on our show we'regoing to be having I'm going to try
to actually get Brecker on,you know, Brian Wrecker on the show
because he's I think he'swritten a book recently that I want
to people to check out on.Hell, Shayna Watson, she's been on
our show before. She spent ayear at the Trinity Anglican Church
International church inWashington, D.C. we're gonna try
(26:09):
to have her back on. We have abig roundtable coming up talking
about that job fair seriesthat we did. We have a lot of fun
stuff in the works. Hope youall check it out. And of course go
over to Grubbing Grace. Checkout some of the fun stuff he mentioned
he has coming up as well as wehave a video game and food conversation
coming that I'm a part of. Somake sure you you don't miss that.
And I hope you guys did enjoythe show.
Oh, what's.
(26:29):
Oh yeah. How do we finishthis? Something about Francis Chan
being the end of season one.That's how it works. You guys have
to tell them because we'renever gonna do it. We are way too
lazy for that. You guys reachhis people, our people reach him.
But you're our people, so good luck.
Deuteronomy, chapter 8, verses7 through 10. For the Lord your God
is bringing you into a goodland. A land of streams, of water,
of fountains and springsflowing out in valleys and hills.
A land of wheat and barley, ofvines, fig trees and pomegranates.
A land of olive oil and honey.A land where you will eat without
shortage, in which you willnot lack anything. A land whose stones
(00:47):
are iron and of whose hillsyou can dig copper. When you have
eaten and are satisfied, youshall bless the Lord your God for
the good land which he hasgiven you. In this pericope scripture,
it's talking to the Israelitesabout the land they were promised,
the physical land that theywere about to walk into. A lot of
times in our New Testamentscriptures, we look back to the Old
(01:08):
Testament promises of an evengreater promise to come. It's interesting.
In the Christian context, wealways want to think about heaven
and earth after we die, but alot of those promises are for us
now in Christ. Mark Flower.This verse talks a lot about food.
What part do you think foodplays in the promises we have in
(01:30):
God even today?
I think just the thankfulnessthat we all have for the food that
we have. I mean, look at this.These verses right here. And although
it doesn't say outright, youknow, we thank you for this food
of barley and vines and figtrees, but I think there is an underlying
sense of things that it's Godthat provides. And we trust in God
(01:54):
so that we are thankful thatthis food is provided from our Creator,
our Redeemer, our one that welook towards. And I think there's
something so beautiful that wehave adopted into our own lives and
our own traditions today inthis modern world. And it's why we
say thanks at a dinner table.It's why we say prayers and give
(02:17):
that thanks and gratitudetowards God. So I think that's. That's
one of the big things withfood that we. We can attribute towards
God.
Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. Hey,everybody. Welcome to the whole Church
podcast. I got a surprisebonus for you. It's gonna be quick,
(02:38):
like 15, 20 minute thing.Chill. I know we said we're gonna
have a week off, but, youknow, we never really do a week off.
It's not what we do here.We're the whole church. We work hard.
We don't. I don't even editthese videos. It's fine. But I'm
not here with the reason forpodcasts. You know, TJ Tiberious
one, the pod Father, the Godof all pods. Insert other really
exaggerated things about thelore of TJ here, but I am here with,
(03:02):
with the the one who isbreaking bread for us all. On his
podcast Grubbing Grace, wehave the one and only host, Mark
Flower. Mark, how's it going, man?
It's going pretty good. Thanksfor having me on the show, man.
I'm excited for this. We'vebeen doing a couple episodes over
there on Grubbing Grace. I gotto guest with you talking about Christian
Taoism and then food in videogames, which turned out to be a way
(03:25):
longer episode than weexpected. But man, we've been having
fun talking about food andfaith and games and I think we touched
on Captain America a littlebit. You had Will on there talking
about Captain America more,but it's fine. It's not like he has
a shield in his office, butit's cool.
I'm always up for anotherCaptain America talk, so if you want
(03:45):
too, we can totally plananother one too.
Yeah, let's do it now. No, I'mjust kidding. I'm excited for this.
We're just going to kind ofintroduce you guys to what is Grubbing
Grace. Talk about it becauseit's a show I really love and I'm
passionate about. So I want toforce my listeners to hear Mark and
then be like, man, I want tohear more than have to go hit subscribe
wherever you listen to yourpodcast. Yeah, this is just blatant
(04:07):
manipulation, but it was goingto be a fun one. I don't usually
do TJ's parts, but I knowyou're supposed to go to like YouTube
or something and check out ourmerch store, that kind of stuff Hit
like subscribe. Etc. Check outother shows in the podcast network.
The Nozzle Podcast Network.Brandon Knight, Kung Fu Pizza Party.
Mark's been on his showrecently as well.
(04:28):
Brandon, awesome pizzatoppings with. With kung fu films
and kung fu actors.
God, it was great. Yeah, itinspired some other ideas for me
and I just. I have unlimitedideas for unfortunate reasons. I've
also been doing some stuff,some more unique stuff with Dummy
for theology. We might even berenaming that show to be Living Water.
(04:48):
I'm thinking about it. We'llsee. So guys, check that out. Let
me know what you think aboutthe name change if I do it. And then
what's another one? SystematicEcology recently had Brandon I over
on it to talk about JackieChan and Bruce Lee. So if you want
more Kung Fu, we'll just.We're eating up the Kung Fu content
right now in the food content.You know, so it's gonna be fun. You
(05:09):
guys know I have a holyspiritual practice we do for everything
over here, Even bonusepisodes, because I can't help it.
It's, of course, silliness. Wecan't have church unity without a
little bit of silliness. Idon't know if you know that. Yeah,
yeah, it's holy. But, Mark,today's silly question that I'm thinking
of as I speak. So I'm makingthis a really long sentence. I think
(05:32):
I got it. If you had to guesswhich sci fi world has the absolute
worst food, what's it. What'sit probably gonna be?
Oh, boy. I can tell you theone that's absolutely not gonna fall
in this category is Star Trek.They're gonna have the best food.
I was thinking the same thingbecause, like, they're like, they're
(05:54):
all about culture.
Oh, boy. I mean, Star Wars, Ifeel like, is always up there. You
got this, that blue milk.Nobody knows what the blue milk is.
People seem to like it in the world.
But have you had the blue milkin Galaxy's Edge?
No, I haven't.
It's so good, especially withrum. But I think that about most
(06:14):
things. I like rum and things.
Oh, boy. I'm blanking on a lotof other sci fi type of things. I
think anything in, like, kindof based on a reality. So not non
Star wars, non Star Trek, allthat kind of stuff, but more like,
like Event Horizon orsomething like that where it's, you
know, based in like, Alien orsomething like that where it's, you
(06:35):
know, a little bit more kindof level at home. I think anything
space, like, you know, thespace foods, I think. I think would
be probably on the lower end.I don't know. What do you think would
be a good, good sci fi?
This can be weird because Ithink it's technically our universe,
but I think this will probablyhave both the best and Worst Foods.
C.S. lewis's space trilogy,because you have planets that never
(06:58):
fell so that there's like,with completely without sin. They're
just doing life great. And Ibet those planets probably have some
killer food options, likegreat cuisine. And then you have
foods that are like planetsthat are like, even worse than ours
somehow that are ruled byangels that are like, I don't know,
I guess worse than Lucifer.I'm unsure. I bet one of those planets
have awful food and one ofthose planets have the best food.
(07:19):
So I'm thinking that'sprobably just the perfect answer.
You know, I think maybe even agood Place and bear with me on this.
So I don't think most peoplewould consider it a sci fi, but if
you think it is very, youknow, they have these different realms
of this afterlife that, youknow, takes place in the whole show.
(07:39):
And if you think, like, maybenot the current timeline within the
show, but there might beanother world where in order to torment
the people, they tell themthat the food, food is wonderful,
but it could be really bad.And in doing so, they're trying to,
like, manipulate and gaslightthem into thinking that they're actually
having really good food whenit actually they're really tormenting
them with really bad food.
Or it could be another, like,Eleanor situation where it's like,
(08:02):
oh, they mistook you and theythink you're accidentally in the
Good Place, but it's reallythe Bad Place. And you're, like,
trying to pretend like you'relike, whatever they think you are,
and they tell you you're agreat chef, and then all your food
always turns out awful, butyou have to eat it and act like it's
good. That would be great.Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. You know, I
like to do shop talk in thelittle episodes because that's not
(08:22):
what you're supposed to do.But we're gonna be doing a Good Place
episode on systematic ecology.I think next month. You should totally
join us for that. It's gonnabe fun.
Let me know.
I'm trying to get AaronSimmons to join us too, but I'll
get back on that. Cool. Fornow, Mark. So one of the things we
have found that helps withchurch unity is just kind of hearing
one another's story. So beforewe get into, like, what your podcast
(08:42):
is, would you kind of justbreak down, like, what's your faith
tradition? What's, like, whatdid you grow up in? And just kind
of where you find yourselfwith the church now. And maybe if
you could throw in how youstarted growing grace, we'll just
rant.
Okay. Where I stand right nowis I've got, like, a hodgepodge of
just ideas in my head, and I'mstill trying to figure out, like,
(09:04):
where I stand in belief. Andbelief I'm still very situated in,
you know, Jesus has died forour sins and, you know, the traditional
sense of that. But as far as,like, other faith traditions and,
you know, church life and allthat kind of stuff, and just the
(09:26):
ideas that the traditionalChristian belief should be in the
world, you know, what peopleexpect, I'm still working through
a lot of that and figuring outwhere I stand on some of these stances
and topics and that sort ofthing. I grew up in a very traditional
home. I wouldn't say it was,it was anything like, you know, extreme
(09:48):
ideas. It was just kind of,you know, following what, what, you
know, the church, the generalchurch kind of, you know, tells us
to live and, and they, youknow, examining the Bible and whatnot.
So I grew up in that sort ofenvironment. I started to kind of
question things when I, when Igot to college, I went to a very
conservative Christianuniversity. And so I was around a
(10:11):
plethora of people that were.That mindset, but there were also
a number of people that werequestioning things and really challenging
the status quo of Christendom.And so I think that kind of allowed
me to process things. But evenstill, at that point, I was just
kind of blase, just kind of,you know, going about life and not
really giving it too muchthought of that. I was, you know,
(10:32):
enjoying life, enjoyingcollege, join friendships and that
sort of thing. I think it wasreally, until a few years after I
got out of college andespecially during COVID too, where
just really like, you know,things just shook for me and I, I
came across one of thosesocial, social media pages, the,
the preachers and sneakers. Idon't know if you're familiar with
(10:52):
that one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It basically highlights allthese megachurch pastors and their
opulent wealth that they, thatthey put on full display, their,
their outward piety that theyshow. And it would show, you know,
the, the price tag for, fortheir particular shoes or jeans or,
you know, things that, thatthey, they have that they're wearing
during their sermons. And itreally just kind of shook me and
(11:13):
that, that Julie Roy's to theNew Evangelicals to. And then one,
one of my friends, April Ajoy,I went to, I went to school with
her and it opened the door toher podcast at the Evangelical Ish
at the time. But since she'sleft and joined the New Evangelicals.
But it opened up the door toall these people. And then, and then
I went to Theology Beer Camp.That's when I, when I, I think it
(11:37):
was the week before TheologyBeer Camp. I started posting my episodes
for Grub and Grace, but Ididn't start creating the content.
I think I started creatingabout two year and a half before
that time, before this lastfall. But I was kind of going about
it. The idea of, I wanted tofocus on food in the Bible, eating
(12:01):
food, harvesting food, allsorts of food, just food ideas in
the Bible. And so it would belike more of a deep dive. So I got
my guests talked about that,actually recorded a bunch of episodes.
And those are actually a lotof my earlier episodes are those
episodes that I created ayear, year and a half before I even
started releasing anything.And then since Theology Beer Camp,
(12:24):
you know, getting into thiscommunity of people that were also
questioning things andaccepting you for where you were
in your faith journey, nomatter what that looked like, it
just. It kind of allowed me tothink freely and allow myself to
kind of be myself on thepodcast and start creating content
(12:45):
that I wanted to create asopposed to what I felt like needed
to create. So that's kind ofwhere it sits right now. And so we've.
We've had conversations ofChristian nationalism. You know,
is it good for society? We'vehad talks about religious harm from
the church, and I had MikeMayashiro on there, and he's a. He's.
(13:05):
He used to be in the church,and he got ousted because they thought
he was gay at the time. Hewas. He's always gay. And he now
advocates for religious harmthat has been done by the church,
and he holds safe spaces forthat. So I have all these conversations
that are opened up to a lotmore broad topics as opposed to just
(13:29):
deep diving into the Bible. Sothat's kind of where everything stands
right now. For grubbing Grace.
Yeah. One thing I've lovedjust talking to you is kind of like
you're not fully liberal orconservative. You're very nuanced
on you thinking through stuff.Just like a lot of us where we're
not completely sure where weare, but we have ideas on different
things and we're kind ofwrestling with a lot of these ideas.
(13:50):
I'm doing a couple comments onstuff because there was a report
on Tim Winnaker when it comesto, like, the new evangelicals that
had to do with, like, abuse,but not like sexual abuse or anything
like that. I think it's morejust kind of behavioral issues. I'm
not 100% sure on the details,so I'm just throwing that out there,
like, because I don't knoweverything. I don't want to say that
I back the new evangelicalsbecause I just don't know everything.
(14:11):
So I'm not saying I don't backthem either.
But, I mean, I don't knowfully there, but from my understanding,
it was more of a disputebetween a freelance worker that he
had hired to do some workbehind the scenes for the show, and
he had pushed this worker alittle bit too hard, demanding things
and it caused some disputesand essentially just kind of spiraled
(14:37):
a little bit more out ofcontrol. And that's my understanding
of it. He has since come outwith an episode talking about this
and that. There's a reportthat you can find, and it's fully
available and transparent on,I think, their website. You can get
the link through there.
He said it was somewhere. Ican't find it anywhere, though. That's
the thing.
Okay.
Yeah. I'm sure you don't know.I got to do more research, but.
Yeah, contact orsomething@newevangeloals.com but
(15:00):
I don't.
Want the episode to becomeabout that. Just Mark seems to know
more about it than I do. Maybewe'll drop some links in here. I
just wanted to say I didn'tknow everything, so I didn't want
to be like, hey, I'm fully onboard. I'm certainly not against
them. I know what I've heardof April on different stuff. I think
she's amazing. So if you canget me in contact, I'd love to have
her on the show. She's cool,but, yeah, I'd still love.
(15:20):
To have her on my show, too. Ihaven't reached out yet about having
her on my show, but, yeah, Iwould love to. I think it'd be great,
too.
I do want to plug somebody. Iknow enough about that. I'm more
comfortable plugging,especially if you're on Instagram.
I don't know if he has apodcast, but Brian Wrecker, he does
a lot of stuff. Just kind ofshowing what's going on in the church
and kind of giving a reallynuanced progress. Nuanced progressive
(15:40):
perspective. Yeah. And justkind of how God's love is at work
in the church today andshowing some of the faults and some
of the evangelical stuff.We're a church unity podcast, you
know, we're not, like, againstchurch unity. For me, this Easter,
one of the most challengingthings is this ancient proverb that
I heard in a Canaan songthat's just stuck in my head of,
it's better to light a candlethan to curse the dark. And I'm like,
(16:01):
man, what does that look likein today's world when the ones who
are calling themselves alight, I think are the ones that's
casting shadows a lot of thetime. But, hey, we'll save that for
your next episode. When peoplego over there and listen to Christian
nationalism, they want to hearfrom you. They'll go over there,
they'll hear it all. Or checkout Brian Wrecker to do both of those
things. He's great. More also,like, your T shirt, I think, says
(16:24):
a lot too. You know, you're ared letter Christian, not a red hat
Christian. I love that. Butsince we're here to Talk about grubbing
Grace 3, I wanted you to talkabout. I wanted you to tell us a
little bit about the episodeyou had Will Rose on, because our.
Our followers are familiarwith him. Some of the episodes that
me and you did together. Andthen if you could just pick like
one episode that isn't one ofthose three, because, you know, I
don't want to feel like youhave to pick those or feel bad when
(16:46):
you don't pick those. That'sjust like an episode that stands
out to you. That's really, foryou, exemplifies what the show's
about. You just plug oneepisode, what that would be. You
want to walk through those.
Well, let's talk about Willfirst. So, yeah, I did an episode
talking about Captain America.Obviously, we mentioned that prior
here, but yeah, we had him on.We talked about the new Captain America
film that came out this year,the Brave New World. And we initially
(17:09):
started talking about thefilm, and then we got very into politics
and how it relates to theworld and all the things that kind
of go along with that. And Igot some good feedback from it. I
got some people saying, youknow, you brought up some really
good points on a lot of that.
The only thing is, y' all didnot like the movie enough. That's
the only problem.
Yeah, yeah.
But y' all can fix that. Fixyour opinion.
(17:30):
There were. There was goodthings and bad things about the film,
and I think there were aspectsof it that I'm really glad they did,
and there was aspects thatthey didn't. You listen to the whole.
So we can do that later. Also,for those who are wondering, I am
known as Josh with a badopinion. So I just.
Peace. And then, of course,Joshua, we had you on. We just recorded
one right before we were doingthis. And so that'll come out at
(17:51):
a later time. It usually takesabout a month or so to. To get episodes
out, usually with my scheduleand whatnot. But we have one out
right now on the, on the show.And we talk about Christian Taoism
and. Or Taoism, ChristianChristianity, however you say that.
But we talk about howChristianity and Taoism can, you
(18:11):
know, coexist in a. In a, youknow, beautiful union with each other
without interfering with thecore beliefs or of the thing. And
Taoism, you know, of Course,as you follow Joshua, you'll know
that it isn't actually areligion. It's more of a, like, spiritual
beliefs and spiritualpractice. So, yeah, we talk about.
Talk about all that, and weeven made some. Some dishes and some
(18:33):
food and had a good time withthat. So it was a lot of fun with
that. As far as a show thatreally encapsulates the Grub and
Grace show, I think myChristian Nationalism episode has
the most views on it. The oneshow that people talk about the most.
Like, if people say, you know,I listened to your show and I really
(18:55):
like this episode. It was theone with Nerdy Dan about AI and pop
culture. Yeah, I think that'sthe one that I get the most comments
on of, like, this was a funepisode. Like, I really love, and
I like the idea of AI Peopleare just interested in AI, so of
course they were drawn to thatepisode, but I get a lot of comments
on that, one, so. Yeah.
(19:17):
Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Well,man, before we do the stuff we usually
do to wrap up and everything,is there any one thing that you think
maybe we didn't ask about thatpeople would like to know about you,
your show, or anything that.Do we miss anything?
No. I mean, I try to open aspace for having dialogue, and I
(19:38):
try to practice activelistening. Not perfect at it, but
I'm. I'm trying. I'm trying toallow my mind open to, you know,
hear ideas and to reallylisten to people and. And to explore
all these different, you know,ideas and possibilities that people
bring up, as opposed to beingjust stuck in. In the gutter. Not
(20:01):
stuck in the gutter, stuck ina rut and in just, like, one way
of thinking about things. Andthe world is not black and white.
It's. It's multiple shades ofgray as well as a full rainbow of
colors. So I think it'sbeautiful to explore the world as
it is before us.
(20:22):
Hopefully our listeners areaware that one of the big things
for the network that we're apart of, Onaza podcast network, the
whole church is a part of, iswe don't want to be giving these
simple answers and theselittle quick little devotions. It's
like. Like there are othergood shows for those things. But
we're trying to ask the bigquestions. Whether it be, like, the
big questions of our fandomof, like, is Superman stronger than
the war? Because, like, youknow, that's a big question for some
(20:43):
people. There are implicationsto that. Or whether it's the big
question of, like, can we havechurch unity with Christian nationalists,
or can we have church unitywith people who disagree on LGBTQ
stuff? You know, we try to askbig questions on all of our shows,
and that's something that'simportant to me, is when someone's
willing to ask the bigquestions. For me, that's more important
than whether or not you'regetting a good answer or a correct
answer. You know, like, I'drather have a good question that
(21:05):
I can leave with. And that'ssomething I think Grubbing Grace
does really well. So I reallywant to recommend all of our listeners,
especially if you like ournetwork, I think you'll love the
Grubbing Grace show. So gocheck them out. And then one thing
we always do, we always askfor if anybody has a God moment.
And TJ makes me go first.Always. I mean, it's easy. We just
(21:27):
had Easter, right? So I thinkI already gave mine away. It's just
that proverb I heard in theCanaan Song. And then, like, I went
to my first Easter vigil thisyear where, like, you started the
campfire, and we're lightingmore and more lights as the service
progresses, going from outsideto the foyer to, you know, the sanctuary,
and just kind of seeing thelight and then thinking, like, you
(21:48):
know, it's not about cursingthe dark. It's not about, like, hey,
Donald Trump is evil. I thinkit's important that we say stuff
like that, that we are honestcalling evil evil, but cursing the
dark, being like, man, I hatethis. That doesn't do anything other
than create more darkness. Andthen thinking about, what does it
mean to be a light in thedark, that's a little bit harder.
So I guess mine's a challenge,and that's where I'm at. Mark, do
(22:09):
you have any God momentsyou've had recently?
I feel like I'm always havingGod moments. I always come into Revelations
and Revelations in the senseof uncovering information and learning.
And I think through all thesetopics I talk about with all my guests,
I think I'm constantly findinginformation that just really strikes
(22:33):
me and speaks to me. TheSunday before Easter, at our house
of worship, at the very end ofthe service, they did this special
choir type of moment. So thechoir is typically in their choir
(22:53):
areas, but this time, theybrought all the choir people into
the aisles around the church,and they started singing a song that
basically was asking thequestion, where were you when Jesus
was up on the cross? And theway they did it, it wasn't that everybody
was singing. It was that,like, one person was Singing at a
time and then another personon the opposite side of the sanctuary.
(23:14):
And then. And of course, youknow that. You know the size of the
sanctuary from theology beercamp. It's that church.
Yeah. Oh, wow.
And so the size of it and allthe people around in the aisles,
and people are like, you know,one at a time are singing these.
These verses and asking thequestion, like, where were you? And
there was just something sosolemn about it, and it was so powerful
(23:37):
and moving. It kind of broughtme to tears. And I'm thinking about.
I'm like, man, just rethinkingabout. This is one of those powerful
moments. And they just had.After they were done, they had everyone
leave in silence. And it wasone of those. Those just kind of.
It just moved me a lot. So Ithink that was probably my most recent
God moment that I had.
Yeah. Yeah, man. It's crazy.Where I had the Easter vigil. I went
(23:59):
to Pastor Will's church, and,you know, that's where they had a
theology boot camp, like, twoor three years ago, too. So we both
went to a theology beer camp church.
There you go.
For Easter. Yeah. One of thesongs they did that was cool. I think
it's the first time I everheard it is like, you know, it's
liturgical, so it's like areally short little chorus, basically.
But they were singing aboutdifferent stuff happening in the
Bible or, like, differentstuff that we might face. And then,
(24:22):
like, the congregation wouldgo, God's a gonna trouble the waters.
And it sounds a lot like smokeon the water to me for some reason,
but it was just cool because,you know, sometimes I tend to think
of, like, what can I do? Howam I being God in the world? And
it's kind of fun to kind ofjust think of, like, even though
this stuff is happening, God'sgonna trouble the waters. And I might
not know what that looks like.And I don't know. That to me, gave
(24:42):
me hope, because right now I'mlike, I can't see anything that I
can do. And to remember thatsometimes it isn't just about what
I can do. So, anyway, yeah, wecould go on forever. I love talking
to Mark. He's a great guy.Hope you guys enjoyed this episode.
If you did share it with afriend, enemy, cousin, one of those,
especially your cousins, youknow, I don't know what other things
(25:04):
TJ says. I always strugglewith this part, but if you don't
mind, maybe, like, rate andreview the show on a podcast on.
Yeah, Podchaser is cool, but Iwas trying to say Apple Podcasts
or Spotify. You can leave acomment on there now too. So let
us know what you think andmake sure you check out Mark Show
Grubbing Grace. Subscribe overthere as well. I think it's a wonderful
(25:25):
show. Of course, check outother shows in our network. We always
have to plug them. So thehomily with Pastor Will. We're gonna
try and get that Easter homilyup soon. Check out Let Nothing Movie
with Chris Nashley. You andbit more conservative take on the
Bible. Or if you want a moreprogressive take on the Bible, the
Bible After Hours has a goodone coming up, I hear. Or that probably
just happened. I don't know.Recording times are weird. But you
(25:47):
know, check all those showsout. It's a fun time. You coming
up soon on our show we'regoing to be having I'm going to try
to actually get Brecker on,you know, Brian Wrecker on the show
because he's I think he'swritten a book recently that I want
to people to check out on.Hell, Shayna Watson, she's been on
our show before. She spent ayear at the Trinity Anglican Church
International church inWashington, D.C. we're gonna try
(26:09):
to have her back on. We have abig roundtable coming up talking
about that job fair seriesthat we did. We have a lot of fun
stuff in the works. Hope youall check it out. And of course go
over to Grubbing Grace. Checkout some of the fun stuff he mentioned
he has coming up as well as wehave a video game and food conversation
coming that I'm a part of. Somake sure you you don't miss that.
And I hope you guys did enjoythe show.
Oh, what's.
(26:29):
Oh yeah. How do we finishthis? Something about Francis Chan
being the end of season one.That's how it works. You guys have
to tell them because we'renever gonna do it. We are way too
lazy for that. You guys reachhis people, our people reach him.
But you're our people, so good luck.
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