Reflections on 'The Whole Church Job Fair': A Round Table Discussion

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:23):
Ephesians 4, 14, 16 in thenorth American Standard Bible say,
as a result, we are no longerto be children, tossed here and there
by waves and carried about byevery wind of doctrine, by the trickery
of people, by craftiness anddeceitful scheming. But speaking
the truth in love, we are togrow up in all aspects into him who

(00:44):
is the head, that is Christ,from whom the whole body is being
fitted and held together bywhat every joint supplies, according
to the proper working of eachindividual part, causes the growth
of the body for the buildingup of itself in love. In the book
of Ephesians, St. Paulexplains what it means to be the
church. And here he's justfinished explaining how the Spirit

(01:05):
gives each individual, in away to bless the whole church, and
now explains how the role ofthose called to be church, you know,
officers, should help thewhole body. Leo Robinson how do you
see this playing out today?Through our own pastors and teachers.
I have listened to some ofyour podcasts and I actually think

(01:27):
it's really interestingbecause I myself am a ordained minister,
but I'm also an academictheologian. And so I think it is,
it is a great idea for apodcast to see how we kind of I are
able to straddle the world ofthe practical and the world that
we are called to live in asministers, but then still take very

(01:50):
seriously the texts and thetheologies that are coming out and
to be held responsible forthose. So I think, you know, I oftentimes
get Tripp likes from homebrew,likes to always call me out for being
a practical theologian orpractically a theologian, as he says.
And so I think it's, it's. Butit's interesting because I actually

(02:13):
started out in systematics andI moved to practical theology because
I felt that I didn't have thatconnect with the people and with
not just congregations and notjust the church, but also just humans
in general. Like, I would givethese talks, but I was speaking to
research students, speaking topeople who spoke the language I.

(02:35):
I did in the academy. And so Ido think we have to keep our feet
firmly on the ground whilestill taking seriously the questions
that Josh and is it Tigus? Tigus.
You can just say tj.
TJ okay. That y' all areasking on this podcast. I think it's
really important. It doesn'tmake you less of a theologian if

(02:57):
you are interested in the workof humans, essentially. So.
Hey guys, welcome to the WholeChurch podcast, the largest round

(03:22):
table discussion we've hadyet. I'm pretty excited for this
one, we're going to have a lotof fun. We're reflecting on the series
we just finished the wholechurch job fair where we act a lot
of people who weren't pastorsand professors whether or not the
theological stuff discussed inour churches and seminaries were
actually relevant to theirlives. And now we're going to discuss,
talk to people who are pastorsand professors and even a spiritual

(03:45):
director excited for that one.About what the answers we got were
and whether or not it shouldmatter. Should we care that people
think it's relevant or shouldwe just teach truth because it's
truth and whether going to getinto. Probably get into a little
bit of weeds with some ofthis. It'll be fun. And we have a
pretty diverse group when itcomes to theology here in different
stances. And rather thanhaving them debate their stances

(04:08):
on these things, we're justgoing to talk about like relevance
and whether relevance isrelevant to what we teach. So I'm
excited. I have. We have LeahRobinson. You've already heard Dr.
Leah Robinson. She's theprofessor of religion and practical
theologian had William WoodsUniversity. She's also one of the
hosts of Theology on the Rocksand author of Bad Theology. I forgot

(04:32):
the subtitle, but I know it'sabout oppression, so that counts.
I get credit for remembering a word.
Oppression in the name of God.
There we go. I mean, Ishouldn't sound excited about that.
Anyway, Pastor Matt Thrift, heis back with us. Pastor Matt Thrift
is from Corner Heights Church.Excited to have him on with us. Marie
Proctor. She hasn't been on ina really long time, but hopefully

(04:54):
you guys remember the name.She is a spiritual director. She
was pastor last time we hadher on. And maybe we'll have an episode
soon talking about some ofthat transition, getting into that.
Of course you guys rememberthe one and only Keno Canady. Reverend
Keno is a Methodist pastor. Idon't remember. Are you still at
the same church? Have you moved?

(05:15):
I've moved. So I'm at a churchat Poplar Springs in Lincoln. Lincolnton,
North Carolina.
Okay. Okay. I thought I sawyou were at a different church, but
then I was like, I couldn'tremember exactly. And then we have
two who are both pastors andprofessors. We have Dr. Peter Link
and Dr. Peter Beck. I thinkit's Dr. Pete Link. I was like, that

(05:36):
just sounds so weird to sayPeter for some reason. Right. Like,
I feel like I've never heardthat. Or maybe I just always call
you Dr. Link and that's the issue.
So we, we both typically usedto be called just Pete. But the problem
is because we have one. If youdo that, you have a one syllable
first name and a one syllablelast name and nobody can hear your
name. So Dr. Beck, being wiserthan Dr. Link, said, I'll just go

(05:59):
by Peter. And I said, well,I'll keep going by Pete. And of course
I end up having to say Peterall the time. So otherwise people
just don't hear it. I don'tknow why. I'm sure there's a theological
reason and maybe we'll get tothe bottom of that later today.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Oppression in the name.
Maybe. Maybe. And both Dr.Link and Dr. Beck are professors

(06:23):
at North GreenvilleUniversity, the school I used to
go to. Not where I ended up.No, no, no, no, no, no, no. They're
at Charleston Southern. Igraduated North Greenville. That's
why I got confused and whythey're the professors.
That's right. That's right.
I listened to his point onthat little part in the beginning
where I have to write theschool name and my name and I'm like,
I don't remember any of that.
Yeah, that's the hard part.

(06:43):
Yeah, that's always the worstpart of the paper. You know, in all
seriousness, I always feellike I lose just as many points on
format than I do content onmost of my papers. But that's just
a sad reality. Maybe it'sbecause it's not practical.
True. If you're here listeningto this, you should also check out
the Onaza Ministry PodcastNetwork website. The link is below

(07:05):
for that. For shows that arelike ours, that we like to like.
And if you're interested ingetting to know us or some of these
other people, more chat withus on Discord. We're always available.
Ish. We're not super busy allthe time. Constantly.
That's a lie. But it's fine. Iusually dump a bunch of links in

(07:28):
the show notes too. So if youwant to follow all these wonderful
individuals or see some of thebooks, like Leah Robinson's book
or Dr. Link helped write abook recently on Old Testament 101.
I don't know if Kino has abook, but I know they have other
ministry and website stuffthat I can link to. So Marie has
her own website. We will bedoing lots of links. Pastor Matt,

(07:48):
we've talked about your bookbefore. We'll link that again. We'll
get it all down there. Theshow description might just be a
bunch of links and that's it.No context, but it'll be fine anyway
with all that. Guys, we liketo start with a silly question in
our series, and I just.Because there's so many people we're

(08:09):
gonna do in either or, youjust gotta give me an answer. You
don't have to even give me areason for the answer. I just need
you all to let me know andsee, this is practical. When you
get to, like, silliness,that's practical unity right there.
That's how it works. You gottalet me know what would be more impressive,
because, you know, TJ's doneboth. But is it more impressive that

(08:31):
he's defeated a sea dragon oran ice giant? Everyone's got to let
me know what you think is moreimpressive, defeating a sea dragon
or an ice giant. Leah, I'mgoing to let you go first.
Yeah, I think that's easy. Asea dragon, clearly, because it's
water and the ocean, and soyou're battling like a dragon, but
also water and drowning. Tome, that's easy.

(08:52):
Okay. Okay, fair enough.
Ice is hard and whatever, butyou can run and whatever.
That's true. I think it alsomight depend on the context where
you're fighting the seadragon, because if you're on land,
you can always just get away.
Yeah, I was going to say youget. You gave us that. You didn't
give us too broad the sh. Ofwhat was. What was the scenario,
but that would be my choice.
Yeah, that's on me. All right,Pastor Matt, let me know which one.

(09:14):
Yeah, absolutely. I would haveto agree, because in my mind immediately,
I was figuring, I'm fightingthis thing in the water, and that's
not going to go well for me. Ican be a decent swimmer, but I'm
not like that. So, yeah, I'mgoing to go there. I watched frozen
ice monsters. Seems scary,but. But I'm gonna go with. I'm gonna
go with this sea dragon isdefinitely more impressive to me.

(09:37):
Gotcha. Gotcha. All right, Dr.Link, what's more impressive, defeating
an ice giant or a sea dragon?
What's more impressive isdefeating a sea dragon that is also
an ice giant. So that's theway it should go.
Yeah. Defeat them both atonce. Correct.
Yeah.
Yeah. So, I mean, why not? Whycan't they be both? You didn't say
they couldn't be bothered.
Accurate.
TJ did them at the same time.The ice giant was actually on top

(10:01):
of the sea dragon.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
All right. I. I think Marie iswaiting, so she's home to Participate.
She's. She's listening viaphone right now to keep up with us.
Hey, Josh, can you hear me?
Yeah, yeah. Did you want totune in?
Yes, I do, and I'm about to behome, so I can turn on my video.
But definitely the sea dragon,for all the reasons that have already

(10:25):
been mentioned. And I thinkit's going to be a great podcast
because I think that we're alljust kind of feeling the same thing.
See?
See Silliness bringing ustogether right here. Except for yes.
Yeah. Okay, Kino.
What.
What's the answer? Sea dragonor ice? Sea dragon or ice giant?
Yeah, I'm gonna go rogue andsay ice giant because you can die
frostbite. You can die a wholebunch of things being cold, so.

(10:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.All right, Dr. Beck, Ice Giant or
sea dragon?
I'm going to stick with Kinoand go ice giant. Also, Pete's dragon
was too nice back in the oldDisney movie, so why would you want
to fight him?
Yeah, I. I also was thinkingice giant, but that's cuz I was thinking
of the Rings of Power, like,very first episode, they're finding,

(11:10):
like, the ice troll thing.That thing scared me. Also, I grew
up in Florida. Water just isnever scary to me. And neither are
anything serpent. Like,anything cold. However, I don't like
cold things in general. Idon't even like 60 degrees. That
scares me. All right, TJ,what's. What's the honest answer
since you are sea dragon?

(11:31):
Definitely.
Okay, yeah, yeah, that's fair.
Cold is cold, but I can'tbreathe underwater.
I just let you know I wouldrather just be eaten by the dragon
than to be gold. Just ingeneral, actually. I love north so
much. I like that. I live inthe south same. It's great.
I'm the same. Like, as soon asyou said is, I was like, well, I'm

(11:52):
out either way. I can alsoswim pretty well, but, like, I just
don't want to be like,wrestling something under the water.
Yeah, that's fair too.
That's fair.
Feels intense.
Well, onto the more seriousstuff here. We just finished a series.
I've mentioned it already.Hopefully our listeners know. I think
you guys know about it becauseI sent probably too many emails and

(12:12):
I apologize, but our serieswas called the Whole Church Job Fair.
And in this series, we askedpeople in the church whose main occupation
isn't in any ministerialoffice. Some of the people have been
pastors before or do ministryof some kind, but that's not their
main occupation. And we askedthem whether what we discuss in our
churches and seminaries seemrelevant to their everyday lives
or not. So that's kind of whatthe gimmick was. I think we learned

(12:37):
a lot. I mean, maybe not TJbecause he's just already knowledgeable,
but I learned a lot as someonewho isn't very knowledgeable. Yeah.
So scripture does warn aboutpreaching to itching ears, and we
know you shouldn't let thetail wag the dog. So how much do
you all think that pastors andteachers should actually take into
account what people want tolearn about or what they think is

(12:59):
relevant to their own personallives? Is it too self centered or
is that something you need tothink about when you're planning
something for a specificaudience? And whoever wants to speak
can speak. We'll figure outthe details later. If everyone speaks
at once, we'll just edit itinto like, you know, something that
makes sense or just raise of hands.

(13:19):
That works too.
Or raise a hand or I'll startcalling on people.
Is this in the church or inthe academy or in both, mostly the.
Church, Either, I thinkeither, but either one works. Yeah.
The challenge here is thatobviously we need to know where our
people at and what they needand what they sense and feel. But
I think the big challenge thatno one anticipated 50 years ago,

(13:42):
for example, is that, youknow, my parents generation, you
went to church three times aweek. You know, the current generation
thinks going to church threetimes a month is regular attendance.
And so for the preacher,teacher, pastor, elder, whatever,
you're maybe only getting 60minutes in a month to be able to
influence their thinking. Sothe challenge becomes what is the

(14:04):
most important thing you cancommunicate to them in the little
time that they give you now.And so, you know, like TJ asked early
on, what do we give up if wedo this? And the challenge is something's
got to give. You know, how canwe still be relevant and biblical
and do so in less time thanthey'll spend listening to this podcast?
Yeah. Anybody have an answerfor that one, by the way?

(14:28):
I don't know that there's aset answer, but part of what I think
Dr. Beck was just saying isthat you have to recognize where
your people are, but you haveto lead them to a more biblical understanding
and posture. And so first youneed to and yourself know what is
it to biblically lead people.And this is where, especially for

(14:51):
those of us in the Protestanttradition, it is the right preaching
and teaching of God's word.And in particular, one of the reasons
I think people find doctrineand deep study, occasionally boring
or unimportant or notapplicable is because they've experienced
boring versions of it. But thereality is that that doesn't have.

(15:17):
That's a false choice, right?Be relevant or be, be practical or
be theological. The reality isthere's nothing more practical than
Christ crucified. It meetsevery single situation, it relieves
every burden. And it doesn'tjust leave you there. It directs
you to where you need to gonext. The problem is we have so focused

(15:39):
on ourselves and not upon Godin the Scriptures, being lived out
our lives personally and as acommunity, that it becomes very hard
to feed people. Why wouldpeople want to be excited about the
Scriptures when many of themare not born again in some situations,
or they are just childrenstill drinking milk when they should
be having steak dinners of theWord. And so I challenge my students

(16:05):
who pastor and within thecontext that I get as an associate
pastor, to really dig deeplyinto the Scriptures because I believe
that the more and more youknow of the Scriptures, the more
you could make it relevant.Not by spending 10 minutes in the
Old Testament and turningaround and saying, how does this
fit to my life? But gettinginto the world of the biblical text,

(16:29):
letting your mind be shaped bythe contours of its story, and then
recognizing this is itsmessage and it will always apply,
apply to something in ourlives. But that is hard work. And
the reality is we live in ageneration where the average person
doesn't want to do anythingthat is intellectual and hard work
because we just rather sitback and be distracted and distraction.

(16:53):
Culture is an obstacle to thegospel. And we have to, we have to,
we have to lovingly bring thetruth of the scriptures to it because
that is the only way thatwe've been given to deal with this
situation and how you live itout. It's going to vary from person
to person, but it's alwaysgoing to come back to the church
putting the scriptures livedout in front of everybody.

(17:15):
I do think it does depend tooon your denomination because a lot
of the phrasing that you usethere, the right teaching, you know,
biblical based, that kind ofstuff, it definitely does depend
on your denomination becausewe are held within the constraints
of the church in which wework. And you know, right quote unquote,
right teaching and rightpreaching and Bible based and all

(17:36):
of that is really going todepend on what denomination you're
a part of in your, yourbackground. So I do agree with the,
the time aspect that peopleare spending less time in the churches.
But I do also think thatchurch as we used to know it has
shifted. And I think churches,much like the academy, are really

(17:58):
bad at moving along. And, youknow, a lot of folks will say, well,
the church shouldn't have tomove along. We've been around for
this. This amount of years.But if you look at historical theology,
we've. We've been shifting andchanging and evolving since the beginning.
So it's not a new thing. It's.It's not easy. But we are very. Well,

(18:18):
I mean, looking at, especiallymainline Protestant numbers are going
down quite sharply. We are atrisk here of being left behind if
we don't shift. So I do thinkthat while we don't have to cater
a particular message to agroup for clicks and likes and all
of that, we are within theconstraints of the denominations

(18:39):
that we serve. And also, wemight want to think about shifting
a little to meet people wherethey are. And that, as you rightly
said, is perhaps not withinthe confines of four walls anymore.
Yeah. I want to highlightsomething that some of you guys have
been saying. When we'retalking about the word or even Dr.
Link mentioned, Christcrucified, But I'm thinking of even

(19:01):
the Incarnation, whatever. Wetake that to mean a lot of this.
God's Word was for God'speople at the time they were at the
Incarnation was God relatingto humans in the most intimate way
possible. So I think a lot ofthe work going back to studying it
and we look at where this allcame from was extremely relevant.

(19:22):
It was God relating to us.That's the definition of relevant,
I think what happens as anerd. A lot of times I hear Christians
talk, especially those whohave done the work and did all the
studying. It sounds more likesomeone geeking out about a Captain
America movie sometimes thanit does trying to share the gospel,
you know what I mean? It'slike, well, if you look closely at

(19:42):
this word, it's actually usedin this other context. And it's like,
I agree with that stuff'simportant and I love it. But sometimes
when I hear people talk aboutit, I'm like, you sound more like
you saw a really cool cameo ina movie than you're actually sharing
something meaningful tosomebody, you know?
Yeah, that's. To me, that's.It feels the same way to me. Like,
old Hebrew translation, a lotof the time is like, yeah, and the
first time we saw this wordwas in Genesis 8. Oh, okay. Cool,

(20:06):
cool, cool, cool. Yeah.
I mean, it does help with the meaning.
It does help to contextualizethe phrase. I Feel like people get
caught up on that sometimes.But anyone else? Should we be catering
our message to our audience,or should we preaching what we think
is the objective truth?

(20:26):
So I have the unique abilityto. I'm just coming up with my first
year at this church I'mcurrently serving at, and one of
the things I discovered isthere's a. There's a disconnect in
what they think they knowabout Scripture and doctrine and

(20:46):
how it's applied. And so Ithink one of my first Bible studies
was I. I taught apologetics. Idid maybe eight weeks on apologetics
about the existence of God,evil, all. All those things, and
tried to make it relevant tothe audience that I was talking to.
Because to me, if you don'tknow how to talk about your faith

(21:09):
with anyone else, then itdoesn't become real to you. And the
issue that I have is thatthough I have an intergenerational
church, it's also a ruralchurch. And so some of the things
that I know that might berelevant for one audience might not
be applicable to the otheraudiences. So I have to also find

(21:29):
the balance and how to be onerelevant, but also be doctrinally
sound with. With acongregation that does not know doctrine.
So.
Yeah, Marie.
Yeah, I was just thinking backto the scripture that you read at
the beginning, and when I waslistening to it, though, the words
kind of whether these wordswere there, but what I heard was

(21:50):
grow up. And so when I thinkof that in the spiritual world, you
know, we. We have to. We'reforced to physically grow up, our
bodies develop, and, you know,they do what they do with or without
our consent. And I think inthe church, we try to spiritually
feed our members, our ownfamily, friends. We try to, you know,

(22:17):
give them what has beenrelevant and important to us. But
the question you posed is,should we be catering to our audience?
And there's a fine balancebetween that. It's almost like you're
holding two tensions. You'retrying to meet them where they are,
but you are also trying topull them forward. But I think there's
another tension, too, thatoften is not held, is actually journeying

(22:40):
back with them for healing tohappen in the emotional realm. I
love Pete Scudero's work withthe emotionally healthy. Discipleship
has been very inspirational tome, and helping me to get past the
theological portion isfantastic. You know, learning memory,
verses, scriptures. But thenwhen it comes to the practicality

(23:04):
of it all, in bringing thewhole, you know, you have whole church.
But I'm thinking even theWhole self, bringing the whole self
in it together. I just hearthe words just grow up. And how do
you do that? I think foreverybody, it's different. And I
believe when I look back tothe generations before us, I think
someone has already mentionedthat is looking back to what was

(23:24):
given to us. I believe thatthe people who came before me, I'll
speak for myself, came to thetable with the best that they had.
And they were almost. It'slike they were given the best they
have, but they still had CliffNotes of what worked for them. And
so here they are handing on tome. But, you know, God, Jesus, the
Bible, the gospel is so muchmore. Encapsulates so much more than

(23:48):
I could ever pass on to mychildren. And so it's like. It's
like learning to see. It'slike instead of learning what to
see, it's how to see. How tosee the world around you, how to
see the Scriptures, how to seeall these things. And so when I think
about and I hear, should wecater to our audience? It's like
both end somehow. Somehow inevery person. Like, I was pastoring,

(24:14):
and if you're going to be inthe pulpit, do it well, lead with
integrity, you know, be abiblical approach. I found that there
was. I was. There was someareas that just the pulpit was that
there's only so much you cando in the pulpit. And so. And that's,
you know, thus my transitioninto spiritual direction and sitting

(24:35):
with people in their storiesand healing from that aspect. I think
there's a lot of variety ofavenues to bring about catering to
an audience, and it's not just one.
So, yeah, yeah, I was going toadd to it. I agree. I think one of
the thoughts that Iconsistently have is like, if we're
gonna cater, I know that'skind of a difficult word because

(24:58):
we're not attempting to justscratch some itchy ears. Like, that's
not the goal for almost anypastor I know. But with that being
said, I look at Jesus. Jesusspeaks to people in a common language
they understand, usingmetaphor that relates to their experience.
Like he. By. By all moderndefinitions, not giving in. But yes,

(25:22):
catering to teaching in a waythat's understandable and relatable
to the people who first heardit. So I would say absolutely. I
think we need to do whateverwe can to get in there. I love what
a couple of y' all said aboutkind of just the. The day and age
we live in nowadays. Like, youreally do get so much less time.
And I've been Pretty. Prettyunabashedly honest with our congregation

(25:45):
about the fact that, like,we've been going through discipleship
over the past year and whatdoes this look like, spiritual formation?
And talking about that andjust saying, honestly, like, 10 years
ago, your main. 20 years ago,especially your main formation was
coming from your church.Nowadays, people spend 12 hours listening
to talk radio and come homeand turn on Fox News or cnn, whichever

(26:08):
poison they want to pick. Andthat's what forms our hearts and
our thoughts way moreunfortunately nowadays. So as a pastor,
I've got to ask myself, okay,I got 30 minutes, 45 minutes, whatever
it is, given that Sunday, whatis the thing I can teach here that
is forming people in a waythat they're already being formed
somewhere else, but reallypointing them back to Scripture as

(26:30):
the true basis for that. So,absolutely. I love. I was just going
to give a quick shout out tomy friend Joshua Ryan Butler wrote
a book this past year onpolitics and kind of how that works.
And it was the first time forme, as I was reading through it and
kind of thinking about that,that I was like, oh, my goodness,
we. We really have a spiritualformation problem in the church.

(26:55):
And I think part of that canbe. Not all, but part of that can
be aided or helped throughscripture. That's based in trying
to reach people where they'reat. So, of course, yeah, don't shy
away from any verses just to.Just to tickle some ears. But with
that being said, also, what isthe most applicable message you can
give in the time allotted toyou? I think ought to be a question

(27:16):
Pastor should be workingthrough, not just to talk about whatever
hefty theological topicimpresses people, But. But what's
applicable for. For my peopleis kind of the question I like to
ask.
Yeah, man, you should write abook about discipleship. I think.
I think. I think you should doit. Also talking about politics,
the ballad in the Bible,Caitlin. Chefs just got a shout out.

(27:39):
She's been on the show before.I like her a lot. She's probably
pretty moderate compared toall of us. I think she'd be in the
middle of this grouptheologically. Yeah.
So another thing we did forthis series that was interesting
is we had our Facebook groupvote on 12 theological topics that
they thought were the onesmost often discussed in churches

(28:02):
and seminaries. So I'm gonnaread the list out for you guys, and
then I want you to just listenand then decide how you feel. The
list represents what youdiscuss, you know, as your focus
as pastors or professors. Soour 12 topics. So it's a lot of ologies,
so pay attention. We've gotsoteriology, free will versus Predestination,

(28:28):
atonement models,continuationism versus Cessationism,
Christology, God's nature,social justice, the doctrine of Amagyo
dei, the nature of Scripture,ecclesiology and missiology, demonology,
Angelology and eschatology. Sothat's what we generally covered
in the job fair series. Andthat's what our Facebook group decided

(28:51):
to was, you know, most oftendiscussed in churches and seminaries.
There was also a 13th topic,which was the categorization of a
hot dog as a sandwich. Thatwas the most important theological
topic. So we covered thatevery episode. But how does that
list line up with what youguys all focus on? Is it, you know,

(29:14):
close, or is it just kind oflike, is that just. Man, I don't
remember what they call it.It's been so long since I've taken
a class, and I'm supergrateful for that first day syllabus.
Is that just like syllabus?
You're grateful that it's beenlong since you've had a class?
Well, not compared to you, buttake it one. It's nice, it's nice,

(29:35):
but. Oh, you can go first, Dr.Link. Is that close for you? Is that
kind of the wheelhouse of whatyou're discussing in your classrooms?
So what's interesting is theway you organized it. The one thing
I didn't hear directly,although you did mention, I guess,
the nature of Scripture. Youtalk about just Scripture.
Yeah, we just.
So one of the things thatpulls all these doctrines together

(29:59):
is just understanding how theScriptures fit together. One of the
reasons why our people are notbeing formed is because they have
an incredible distance betweenthemselves and the Scriptures. Not
intentional, they'll all say.Almost all of them will say they
love the Bible. But do theyactually have a sense when they come

(30:21):
to any part of the Bible thatthey really know what's going on?
Well, some parts may be likethe Gospel accounts. Sure. And they'll
have a loose idea of someother things. But the compartmentalization
with these topics that'sembedded in these topics is part
of the strength, but also partof the weakness of what we. We have
to deal with. If you gothrough the Scriptures, every single

(30:43):
one of these topics isdiscussed. And the question is, if
your goal is to build peopleup into Christ for maturity in Christ,
then it is the Old Testamentand the New Testament that proclaim
Christ and drawing people tounderstanding the Scriptures and
to be able to model for them.What does it mean to, to. To put

(31:03):
your mind in your life withinthe Scriptures. That's the way we
compel people out. So I wouldsay, yeah, these doctrines get covered.
I don't think they're boring.They can be boring. Like for eschatology.
That sounds argumentative andboring. And that's because some people
have viewed eschatology asnothing more than, than a, than just
a calendar. I don't thinkthat's the way the New Testament

(31:25):
presents. I don't think that'swhere the Old Testament presents
it. For those who don't know,I'm an Old Testament professor, so
I spend all my time doing. AndI promise you that Moses and the
prophets find their hope inhow things end. And so, no, I would
say that the more we helppeople to understand the Scriptures,
the more that these doctrinesnaturally flow from the Scriptures

(31:49):
into their lives. And so tome, that's. If our time is tight,
part of what you have to do isyou have to find ways to multiply
your time. You have to findways to, to help people create resources
to help people spend more timein the Scriptures, resources and
people and so forth. And soone sermon a week is hardly going
to bring you into the biblicalworld, no matter how great your sermons

(32:12):
are. But modeling for peoplehow to read the Bible and how soteriology
and how atonement and howChristology and how eschatology and
demonology or whatever it istopic, you want to say, how all that
comes into play within thestory is probably the most effective
and efficient way to giveglory to God and edify people towards

(32:33):
Christ.
Right. And I do feel like itgets taken for granted a lot originally.
Not originally, but, you know,in the past, one of the major points
of going to church was thatyou could hear what's written in
the Bible because you didn'tknow how to read. You would go to
church a few times a week, youwould hear them read the Bible, you
would trust them. That's howit goes. The global literacy rate

(32:57):
today is 87%. And I feel likethe church leans on that kind of
heavily because knowing how toread is not the same as knowing how
to read the Bible. So theyfocus a lot less in church. How to
read the Bible, unless you'rein, you know, waking up early, going
to Sunday school, you know,coming in Wednesday nights, doing

(33:18):
Sunday night. And is thatsomething we should do more on Sunday
morning? I don't know.
Well, I'll give you a modelfor what we do. I have the advantage
of not being a senior pastor.So unless I'm filling in the pulpit,
somebody else is preaching,and I spend two full hours with two
different groups of smallgroup leaders, and we're taking them

(33:41):
through doctrine and otherelements. In fact, right now we're
going through Chris Morgan'sChristian theology textbook. These
are just regular lay people,and all of these topics and more
get talked about. But we do itslowly. Never everybody overestimates
what you can accomplish withone little thanos snap of the fingers.
And everybody underestimatesthe power of every day going back

(34:05):
and doing the small littlethings well by drawing people to
Christ. And I just thinkpersistence and patience lets God
do his work in us and through us.
Dr. Lee, I want to hear fromyou, too, because you teach in a
fairly different context thanDr. Link and Dr. Beck. Are these

(34:28):
the kind of topics that youguys typically talk about, or is
this way off base of what'snormally taught with the 12 that's
listed?
Well, I mean, for reference, Iteach seminary at Mercer University,
and then I teach undergraduatereligion, just religious studies
folks. So I sort of have myfeet in both pots, as it were. I

(34:52):
mean, I. Well, I'll focus onseminary because that's where you're
going to get a lot of thisdoctrinal stuff that you mentioned.
I mean, the topics that youbrought up, really, if you opened
up McGrath or whatever, introto theology, these are going to be
the topics that you see. Like,that's. So they're not. It makes
sense that that was what wasvoted on, I think, for me, because

(35:12):
I am at a cooperative Baptistseminary, and scripture has done
quite a lot of damage to a lotof people. It's a cooperative Baptist
seminary, majority people ofcolor and also majority women at
the seminary. So there's beena lot that's been interpreted to

(35:34):
be very damaging, which Iwrite about quite extensively. I
would love to have a sunniertopic. So for me, I think the interpretation
of Scripture is always at theforefront of, you know, what I teach
and also what I think about interms of research. Because while
we would love for everyone tohave interpreted it in a. In a, you

(35:55):
know, edifying way, that's notalways what happens. You know, you
ask people in Jonestown whatis the most important topic, they
probably would have saideschatology pretty quickly. Right.
You know, so it does in manyways depend how people interpret
scripture. So I would put thatone. And also, I am a social justice
warrior, but this is relatedvery much to interpreting the scriptures.

(36:18):
Is, you know, what is yourInterpretation, doing to the world
around you, because guesswhat? You know, heaven is great.
Hoorah. But we gotta live herefor the whole rest of the time, you
know, and so what are we goingto do while we're here? And so I
think for me, those would bethe two topics that are the most

(36:42):
important in my. In myteaching, for sure. But again, I'm
teaching in. In Atlanta at aseminary that was created because
the bap, this group ofBaptists, believe that people are
interpreting Scriptureincorrectly. And so that really frames
a lot of what we do and howwe. How we exist. So the undergraduates,

(37:05):
bless their hearts. I don'tknow. We don't get into doctrine
with those. With them so much.I'm sure they would say getting out
early is the most important thing.
Yeah.
Being able to be on theirphones and napping. That's what I
would say. Yeah.
Yeah.
Like all adults. No, but I get it.
Yeah.
Now I get it.

(37:26):
No, it's. Yeah. Which is alsowhy we had the Facebook group vote
on. On the topics. Because,like, my brain is like, I can't even
start here because I'm like,okay, well, when you say Scripture,
what do we mean by that? Whatdo you think that is? Because, you
know, we're talking aboutCatholic and Orthodox as part of
the whole church, and we'retalking about different scriptures
a little bit, too. And thenyou get to. What do you mean by correct

(37:49):
interpretation? Everyone'sgoing to meet. I would have never
even got to the list. I'venever been able to even think of,
like, where do we start?
And the Hebrew text being agroup that, you know, we have taken
on but didn't originate inChristianity. You know, I'm sure
the Old Testament folk canspeak on that much more than me,

(38:09):
but I mean, so it's adifferent. It was created in a different
system, you know, So I thinkthat the scripture interpretations,
I think, are the mostimportant to what I teach.
Yeah.
But, yeah. All that said,though, these are the 12 that were
voted on, so it seems like itwasn't completely off base. Maybe
we'd have a little nuance onhow we think that, what you mean

(38:31):
by these things. But basicallythese are the things talked about,
regardless of your systematictheology textbook. I think most of
them, if you open up, have alot of these things in the context
there. When we asked theworkers that we had on the show,
we asked these people whoaren't occupational ministers or
professors, if what we wentthrough, like a speed round, and

(38:53):
we said going through eachone, how relevant Is this to you?
Kind of had them rank it. Andoverwhelmingly most of our guests
put eschatology, angelology,demonology and the nature of scripture
as not relevant to them. Theysaid, they said they didn't feel
like that was very relevant,but then they would say stuff like
imago dei, social justice andChristology were like the most relevant
to them. I'll save my reactionfor some other time, but how do you

(39:17):
guys react to hearing thatthat's just kind of what people,
people thought was more orless relevant to them? Does that
surprise you? Is that like,oh, that irks me because I just want
to tell you why these thingsare relevant or like, like, like
how do you guys react to that?
I think most of us wouldprobably agree. Nature of scripture
is kind of a big deal one wayor the other. Like, doesn't matter
what part of the aisle you'reon, it's kind of, kind of a big one

(39:40):
that forms the basis for allconversation in the first place.
So when I first saw that,like, immediately, I guess I was
surprised. And then I thoughtabout it for about 1 1/2 seconds
and was like, you know, ifyou're raised in church or you've
been in church for more than acouple minutes, you kind of have
an idea of how your church inparticular is interpreting scripture,
whether that's thedenomination that you're part of

(40:02):
or that particularcongregation. So I don't think it's
one, although I do think it'sstill necessary to be taught. I don't
think it's one that peoplethink of as often as like a necessary
piece, quote, unquote, becauseit's just kind of like you're in
it, like when you're alreadyswimming in your congregation, are
you even going to realize thatthe interpretation is different from

(40:23):
a different congregation orfrom a different background in some
way? So that one surprised mea little bit. I still think it's
important to talk about, but Ithink all of those pieces, I guess
the best way to put it is justI really do think back to kind of
what Dr. Link said at thebeginning. But really there is a
way to make all of thisinteresting. I think the truth of

(40:47):
the matter is that there aretopics that I remember hearing in
seminary that I was like, ohmy goodness, I've got like an 85
year old white dude teachingme this topic and I'm about to fall
asleep. And just being honest,it wasn't interesting at the time.
And then you go back and youthink about it, you read through
it, you Read different bookson that topic, and you're like, oh,

(41:09):
wow, this really is a livingbook in my perspective. A living
book that does even more cometo life through the way that we teach
it, through the way that weunderstand it. So I don't think any
of the topics areparticularly, like, off limits because
they seem more boring. But Ithink it does mean. I appreciated

(41:29):
just your guys kind of studyinto that, asking people on Facebook,
because as a pastor, I'm like,okay, well, now I know which ones
I need to. To need to makesure are really interesting when
I teach them. Because, yeah,like, some people are real excited
about eschatology, some peoplearen't. But if I can make people
excited about it, like, I. Ilove reading through genealogies.

(41:53):
They're really interestingwhen you think about, like, the historical
context. I'm not going tostand on stage and preach a genealogy
next Sunday without, like,half the room falling asleep, but
maybe I got to find a way todo that. Like, exactly. Yeah, you
got to find a way to do itexactly. So I think it's. How can
we find, find and inspire lifechange, even through some ivory tower,

(42:14):
monotonous thought process formany. I think there's still living
word in that, and that's whatwe get to teach. So I think it's
a good thing.
Yeah. I was shot in theoriginal Facebook group vote that,
like, sexuality wasn't votedon at all. Like, because in my mind
I was like, that's what churchtalks about. Right. Apparently I'm
the only one who feels thatway. Not the only one, but apparently

(42:35):
I'm outvoted on that one.
Yeah. Every week my churchjust does Song of Psalms. I don't
know. It's weird.
I was a little saddened thatthe sexuality and gender aspects
didn't get brought up as well.
Yeah, that was me, too. Iwanted to be asking everyone if that
was relevant, and it was like,well, people don't think we're talking

(42:57):
about that in church enough. Iguess. So.
Yeah.
Didn't make the cut.
No one brings it up, but.
Well, I wouldn't say no one.
Yeah. I. I'm just subject tothe vote. Specifically on our Facebook
group.
No, in our subjugated.
That's fine. That's fine.
But.
But it's important to. Torecognize that the survey respondents

(43:17):
are not by nature, by the wayyou've set it up.
Oh, yeah.
They're not necessarilydescribing what's actually going
on. No, they're describingwhat they perceive to be going on
and perceived to be relevant.
Yeah.
And so that's part of the. Go ahead.
Oh, sorry. I would say it'salso probably a certain kind of person
is going to be part of thatgroup, which is definitely, you know,

(43:40):
biasing the numbers.
Well, yeah, but it's. I don'teven mean biasing in that way. I
just. The reality is, if Itake my car to the shop and my mechanic
begins to describe to me whathe's doing to my car, about two seconds
into the explanation, I'velost the plot.
Yeah.
Okay. And that'sunfortunately, where many of our

(44:01):
church members are of variousages. And it's maybe understandable
in younger children, but it'snot really understandable amongst
adults. As somebody who didn'tcome to the Lord Till I was 31, if
you value Jesus, you have tovalue learning about him from the
Word. I mean, everything. Imean, it's very simple on one level.

(44:22):
But what's amazing is comingback to the Word of God and teaching
it really does, over time,reshape us, and it challenges us
with our assumptions. Somepeople do read well. I think one
of our colleagues here wasmentioning hermeneutics, not by name,
but by concept. And I wouldagree that how you read matters.
And for many of us, the mostimportant way that we read is according

(44:47):
to the authority, what we callthe authority intended message. And
what I'm trying to do when Iteach and preach is not to magnify
my voice because that's. I'mgoing to die. That's meaningless.
What matters is magnifyingGod's voice according to the Scriptures.
And that takes, for me a tonof time to wrestle with things that
other people don't necessarilywant to wrestle with yet. But once

(45:10):
you do that, man, boom. And ifthe light gets off for you. And it's
amazing how you can takepeople back into that biblical world
and bring out just the gloryof God across even a genealogy. I
was talking to some studentstoday because I was teaching through
Genesis. And the story ofTerah embedded at the ending of Genesis

(45:34):
11 sets up the entirediscussion of the death of the firstborn,
which takes you through Exodusand beyond, Right? And so when Terah
doesn't follow through becauseof the death of his son, that's a
story that's set there in thatgenealogy leading into Abraham's

(45:55):
story, whose central test iswhat? He's going to have to take
his son, his only one, the onewhom he loves, and he's going to
have to offer him up. And yetthe very word of God that seems to
Put his son to death is thevery means whereby he finds life.
That's what I. That. That'swhy I want to take people to that.
And because I think it changedme, I think it can change them. And
that's the only trick I have.And it's a sufficient trick.

(46:18):
It's a good trick.
Yeah. And I don't know, I feellike for too many people, they hear
some of the stuff and thinkthat's only going to lead to certain
beliefs or certain things. AndI'm not trying to say that multiple
things can be correct. A lotof times they can't. Someone's probably
wrong. But when you talk aboutthe name thing, I believe you might

(46:38):
actually be the one who taughtme this doctor link with Seth in
the middle of the genealogy isthe story of the tower of Babylon.
So you have this whole thingof, like, who you're making a name
for, and if you understand thelanguage and why the genealogy is
happening, you're like, oh,wait a minute. This pride of man
thing, that's not aconservative or liberal or, you know,
any kind of thing. Like,that's a. Hey, pride of man is bad.
Yeah. So the word there is Shem.

(46:58):
Yeah, Shem.
Shem is the third son. And youhave a genealogy that leads to Babel,
to Babylon.
Yeah.
Where man make. So you've gotthese God man moments on these mountains
of Moriah and Sinai inparticular, and other moments. But
then at Babel, you havehumanity making a name for himself.
And how's that going to end?Well, it's going to end up with humanity
scattered and defeated. Andinstead what we're waiting for is

(47:21):
to have a Shem, a name fromGod. Genesis 12, 1:3. And so the
second Shem genealogy, thesecond genealogy of name leads out
of Babylon back to the landwhere God dwells.
Yeah.
Yeah. We're just giving PastorMatt a lot of. A lot of fodder for
his next genealogy series he'sgoing to do.

(47:42):
We'll leave it to the OldTestament guy.
Yeah.
So one thing, and this is kindof going to be a lot, guys, but just
bear with us. Everyroundtable, we like to do what we
call the Roundtable Roundup.We asked our guests on the whole
church job fair series whatour pastors and professors could
learn from seeing the worldthrough their lens. And we wanted

(48:03):
to let you all respond totheir answers. For this special edition
of the Roundtable Roundup, I'mgoing to give you all four categories
that we divided their answersinto. You must choose one of the
Four categories, and then I'llread you the answers we got from
that category for you torespond to. And no one can respond
to you in this group. No onecan respond to you or ask follow

(48:26):
up questions until after theRoundup table is complete. This helps
us give everyone a chance toactually speak because there are
a lot of us here. It alsostops Josh from increasing the runtime
of the show to seven hours.
Sorry.
So let's try to keep those inmind. Now that does, you know, don't

(48:48):
be afraid to pick the samecategory as somebody else. If you
know there's something youwant to talk about, you talk about
that. If everyone wants totalk about the same category, then,
oh, well, all six.
If you pick category one,that's cool.
Yeah, we'll miss one, we'llmiss three. Who cares? Somebody does
a little bit, but they'll getover it. So for this one, Josh and
I will also refrain fromresponding to these for now. Normally

(49:10):
we would, but our fourcategories are internal, which is
something about the worker'sown spiritual or emotional health.
External, something the workernotices about the world around us.
Communal, which is somethingthe worker notices about the church
community. Or outward, whichis something the worker sees in how

(49:30):
we treat others. So do we haveany volunteers to start a roundtable?
Roundup. Not sponsored byRoundup. I'm not sure why they would.
That's bug killer. I thinkthey should, but we're open.
Listen, churches need insecticides.
Churches need insecticides.I've always said that.

(49:50):
Yeah, I'll pick one.
Do me a favor, go back overreal quick. Tj yeah.
We have internal, which is theworker's own spiritual health. External,
which is something theynoticed about the world around them.
Communal, which is somethingthe worker noticed about the church
community. Or outward, whichis something the worker sees in how

(50:11):
we treat others. So internal,external, communal, communal, and
outward. And Marie, whatcategory would you like?
Pick one.
Internal. So something aboutthe worker's own spiritual or emotional
health. We have four answers.And I said our churches don't say

(50:31):
much to help those who workmore in solitary or, you know, more
alone and whose job requiresstuff like hard work, diligence,
and remaining strong to dotheir job well. They say people's
lives are busier and morehectic than our pastors seem to understand.
Said our time matters even ifthe spirit is moving. Too often,

(50:55):
jobs that aren't with thechurch feel like they're treated
as less than ministry. And alot of people say they don't feel
appreciated for the work thatthey Do.
So I'm supposed to comment onthis? Is this what. What we do? Okay.
So, yeah, I feel like there'sa validity to every statement that
you read. And it saddens methat this is what we find in our

(51:16):
churches. These are thecomments that come out of not every
church, not all churches, notevery person in the church. I've
learned that. That justbecause one person has these types
of experience, it doesn't meanthat the whole church does. But I
would want to encourageindividuals to find. Not that I'm

(51:36):
putting myself out there, buta spiritual director, like there's
a pastor, can only do so much.And it's already been said, there
are so many topics we canbring into the church setting in
a creative way, but you'reonly limited with your time. And
I do believe that if a teamwere to partner together and have
a variety of things offered,not just programs, but opportunities

(52:00):
for people to engage with oneanother and to nurture the internal
part of them, the emotionalpart, the spiritual health, their
own spirituality. I don't knowif it's Augustine who said this.
There's John Calvin, I think,said this too. But knowing yourself
is knowing God. Knowing God isknowing yourself. And like, this

(52:21):
is the same, you know,different sides of the same question.
And when you get to know God,you can know yourself better. And
I don't know.
I just.
Yeah, there was so much thatyou said there. I wish I would have
had the list to look at thosestatements. But I do believe there
is that validity in what eachof them said.

(52:41):
All right. And Kino, do youwant to go next?
All right, I'm going topiggyback off Marie with the internal.
And I agree with her, that isvalidity in all of those things.
And what she was talking aboutearlier, which pricked my ears about
the wholeness of the person.Let me also say this. I had just

(53:07):
graduated last May with mymdiv, and then I just went into June.
This is my first year and ahalf getting my master's in mental
health. And so I'm recognizingthe crossroads for spirituality and
mental health and trying tohelp folks with the wholeness of
the person. And so it'sinteresting that you do not have

(53:28):
the opportunity to teachcertain things as a pastor. But what
I have been doing, which thecongregation doesn't know, is that
I have been pushing emotionalhealth and spirituality in every
sermon and every. Any Biblestudy that I teach. I even forced
them during Lent, instead ofreading the whole. The old Lenten
books devotional, we did the40 days journey which helped being.

(53:56):
Helped doing the practice,being the presence of God in the
stillness of God, not in thebusiness of life, but finding him
in the quiet space where healways shows up. And so recognizing
that, yes, we are busy, yes,folks don't get recognized for what
they do, but if you work onyour own relationship and knowing
how you are with God and howGod is with you, then it would actually

(54:18):
all the other stuff would notmatter. Because I agree with Dr.
Link when he was talking aboutthe Scriptures. And that brought
me back to what Jesus said. IfI be lifted up, I'll draw men unto
me. So we just talk aboutJesus and everything that we do and
how he was as a whole being.Then we can also share that with.
With the congregation.
All right, I like that. PastorMatt, Pastor Thrift, which category

(54:42):
would you like to choose?
I'm gonna go with. I mean,I'm. I'm interested in that last
one, but I'm gonna go withcommunal. Want to hear a little bit
about that?
All right, so communal, whichwas something the worker notices
about the church community.And the answers we got for that were
that we focus on too much ontheology and making sure everyone
knows about God, but notenough on our relationship to God

(55:03):
and one another. We also gotchurch people tip way less than others
and are rude. That is,specifically after church on Sunday,
in restaurants. We had one whosaid they really love the church.
He sometimes relies onchurches to help those in need if
he can't do anything for them.That was a police officer saying

(55:25):
that. And we got too oftenthat people pursue certain careers
or goals because the churchinspired them to do good. And then
they get criticized by thechurch for how they go about it.
And we also got that pastorsshould consult people in their congregations
about their expertise beforetalking about certain current events
that they may not be expertsof. And that comes from. We know

(55:49):
a lot of people in theresearch triangle, which. A lot of
times you were preaching inthe research triangle, you're preaching
to some pretty smart folks.That just kind of happens. But what
do you have to say about that,Pastor Matt?
Yeah, I mean, first off,sorry, because I'm pretty confident
I've seen that tippingsituation myself. But with that being

(56:10):
said, no, I. I thinkgenuinely. I mean, I don't even know
that it needs to be said thatthat's. That's valid because. Yeah,
it is. I mean, we've. We'veprobably all experienced elements
of that before, but. Yeah, youknow, I guess what I would say is
thinking through that, like, Igrew up In a church that had a very

(56:32):
high value on theology andreading through Genesis to Revelation
and then kick that back offagain again, it took like two years
to get through and go through.And, and I don't want to say there's
anything wrong with certainways of doing that. There, there's
not that I don't think that weshould leave parts out. I, I understand
that. But I would also say,like, in my experience, when it comes

(56:56):
to the conversation oftheology versus, I guess, kind of
this whole conversation, likechurches spend too much time talking
about theology and not enoughtime to talking about personal application,
becoming better people, thatsort of thing. I think, unfortunately
there are so many churchesthat teach theology without realizing

(57:16):
that your theology has tochange the whole person in the first
place, that this, this bookthat we love or proclaim to say should
influence every aspect of ourlives. And so as we've already said,
I've sat through a lot ofboring messages on theology that
didn't have a lot of heartbehind them, and I think we need
to fix that. And then when itcomes to kind of the personal side

(57:39):
of Christians just not being,I guess, the nicest people outside
of church, it's a critiqueI've heard about a billion and a
half times and I think isunfortunately true in a lot of cases.
I always tell people, back inMaryland, where I grew up, there
was a, a book that got put outlike a little phone book of Christian,

(58:03):
like carpenters and plumbersand all the things. It was supposed
to be this encouragement to gofind when you need a new deck built,
like find the Christiancontractor, support Christian businesses.
And I don't, I don't want totalk crap on that, but I will say
I legitimately had times whereI would look at that book and then
intentionally not, not callthose people because I knew that

(58:24):
I was going to get ripped off,especially as a pastor, because it
had happened so, so so manytimes where people would say, oh
well, sorry we couldn't get itfinished, but you're a pastor, you
understand like that sort ofthing. And I think Christians can
unfortunately be some of theworst. It's just the sad reality.

(58:44):
And so there's an aspect inwhich I think we've probably really
spent too much time as thechurch focusing on these high level
theological terminologies.And, and pastors are more concerned
with impressing theircongregations with their Greek knowledge
than they are about formingthem into people who actually image

(59:05):
God. Well, like, I thinkthat's an unfortunate reality. So
I guess what I would say Is insummary, sorry that that's happened,
because truthfully, it's aboutall I can say. And I understand,
like, as. As a pastor, I've.I've been burned by church people
a whole lot more than I haveby people outside of the faith. And
the reality is we need to dobetter. I. I think we need to teach

(59:29):
things that form people intothe body of Christ instead of just
feeding their brains andsending better people to hell. I'm
not super interested in that.
Yeah. All right. And Dr. PeterBeck. Isn't it funny? I can lead
doctor like that, and fourpeople are like, I'm just gonna talk

(59:49):
to me. Dr. Beck, whichcategory are you gonna take for us
today?
The outward.
All right, so the outwardcategory, which something the workers
saw and how we treat others,which we was going into places and
talking to people with anulterior motive is very noticeable

(01:00:09):
and not helpful. And we needto genuinely engage with others without
just hoping to convert them.Pastors often come off like they
have an agenda rather thanjust trying to be present. And a
lot of us just want someone tobe there with us. And that service
means something differentoutside of the church context. And
it's harder than we might makeit seem. They said we need radical

(01:00:32):
hospitality in churches andrestaurants. So what do you have
to say about that?
Having grown up not quite inthe church, but having lived outside
the world. You know, I spent adecade in advertising some time in
the army a while back. Yeah,I've seen all those things, you know,
what I call the gun beltgospel approach, where, you know,

(01:00:55):
we want to talk about how manypeople we reached or how many people
we saved or whatever. But Ithink that's where the key is. It's
that relationship relational,driven evangelism. I think you can
apply that model todiscipleship or apologetics. I recently
went to basically a mealhosted by another college here in
the area and sat next to anevolutionary biologist. And I think

(01:01:18):
he came in with very strongpreconceptions of what he expected
of me, especially when I foundout that I'm a Christian studies
professor. But at the end ofit, I thought the most telling remark
was, wow, if I knew there weremore people like you at your school,
I would have reached out longago. And I think some of that's,
you know, pride or maybearrogance on his part, but. Or ignorance.
But I think a lot of it is, wehave been bullies in a sense, or,

(01:01:43):
you know, we want to be boldand strong, you know, because we've
been encouraging our folksfrom the pulpit. You need to be strong
in the face of, you know,challenges. But I think part of it
is just, you know, they're right.
We.
We do lack authenticity. Butthe question is, can I be authentic
and still accomplish theministry goal, you know, of evangelizing?
Or if I meet somebody at thehospital, you know, can I smoothly,

(01:02:07):
authentically, naturallytransition from, wow, that's. That's
a horrible situation. Have youthought about. I mean, in my case,
just give you a real quick,random example. I've just in the
last two years, been diagnosedwith PTSD for my service a long,
long time ago, and I'm in theVeterans Administration system, and
none of those counselors areChristians or are allowed to talk

(01:02:30):
about their faith. If theyare, some of them clearly were not.
But it's been interesting tointeract with them and go, okay,
here's who I am right now andwhat I'm struggling with, yet, you
know, be able then to turn andtalk about how my faith is impacted,
how I'm reacting or notreacting well or whatever. And so
I think it's just part ofthat. You know, what, the younger

(01:02:51):
generation and the professorsall have experienced this with our
undergrads and when you guyswere students a while back, they
just want us to be real. And Ithink we owe that to the people we
talk to, whether they'rechurch members or, you know, strangers
we meet on the street. Youknow, I don't think we should shy
away from our faith, but Ithink we need to be honest and tell

(01:03:12):
them, here's what I believeand why, or find out what they believe
and why first, before youstart into your, you know, pre memorized
evangelism plan from the 1950s.
Yeah.
Talk to them and find out whothey are and where they're at and
see where the conversationgoes from there.
Yeah.
All right, I like that.
Can I go next? Because I alsochose outward.

(01:03:33):
Yes.
Also, Dr. Beck, I agree with agreat majority of what you said.
Yes.
Also, that made me giggle atthe end.
Yeah.
So I think there is somethingthat I did want to bring up that's
connected to this. But we dotalk about theology sometimes, especially
in the context of the church.And I do think the. That the way

(01:03:55):
that a lot of theologiansunderstand theology is that it's
an interpretation of the textof a sermon, of an incident, an interaction.
So it means that it empowersyour congregation and empowers people
to be theologians on theirown. So when we talk about outward,
we're saying what has. Whatwe've done or what Someone has experienced

(01:04:18):
who's a Christian influencetheir theology. Now, that's very
different from a high end, ifyou want to call it systematic academic
theology or whatever. This isthe actual theology that's on the
ground. So I want to reallyempower people to say that you are
all theologians. When you hearthe text or you hear a sermon and

(01:04:38):
you go out and do something,that is theology. Now, what you take
from that is your own flair.But I do think. So I want to put
that in the sand because I'veheard a lot of theology being thrown
around. And I think it'simportant to distinguish if you're
talking about what you learnedin seminary versus, you know, what.
What's actually happening inthe world. I do think that we. Exactly

(01:05:02):
what Dr. Buck said is that wehave this prescribed notion of how
we need to be Christian,especially if you. I grew up, full
disclosure, Southern Baptist,right? So my understanding of a lot
of my early years of theologywere based very much on you gotta
go out and evangelize. I grewup in Georgia. How many people do

(01:05:25):
you think I was evangelizingin North Georgia? Not a lot. But
we still had these tools,right? We were supposed to go out
and spread the word and blah,blah, blah and all that kind of thing.
And so what we've done iswe've created a copy context where
people are suspicious of usbecause we had this whole, you know,
these generations of folks,like Dr. Breck said from the 50s

(01:05:45):
onward that have, you know,come out, and if they start talking,
you know, and I live now inCharlotte, North Carolina. If I say
I'm a Christian, people arelike, oh. And kind of make a face
and, like, walk away, youknow. And so I think it's.
We.
We've created this situation.Now what we do with it. Well, you
can do what one of two thingsyou can, or one of many things. You
can go and move to your ownlittle bubble, find some little,

(01:06:07):
you know, conservative areaand hang out in it and live out your
1950s dream, or you can adjustyourself while still being authentic.
And I think Dr. Beck said aswell about being authentic is really
important, because peopledon't care that you're religious.
They care that you don't havehidden agendas for them. And I think

(01:06:29):
a lot of the times when wespeak to people and we say we're
Christian, they go back tothis version that maybe they grew
up or maybe they were evenharmed by. And I think that's important
too. Also, you know, I dothink the stuff in the news, Christian
Nationalism, Christianitybeing associated with political violence

(01:06:51):
and things that maybe theydon't seem so Christian is not helping
our cause either. Now that's amuch bigger issue and one that maybe
we can't particularly, youknow, individually change. But we
can certainly bring it up andtalk about it. And this is where
the social justice stuff comesin as well as while we're doing theology
out in the world, we can tipbetter. You know, we can speak out

(01:07:13):
about injustices that we seeand we can say that this is based
on my faith. We can changethat narrative if we so choose. So
that's my version of a sermon over.
All right, and so Dr. Petelink, which category are you going
to take for us today?
Well, nobody's done externalyet, correct?

(01:07:34):
That's right. But you don'thave to, you can.
Well, we'll do it. Why not?Hey, I'm an equal opportunity offender.
We got this working here, allright, so guide us through this.
Alright, so external wassomething that the worker notices
about the world around us. Andyou printed off the outline, right?
So you could keep looking at it?
Yes.
So you have the list, but I'mgoing to read it anyway. There are

(01:07:56):
emergencies all around us andthe medical workers often don't get
the support and time that theyneed to care for themselves. It said
people treat other people morepoorly than pastors seem to imagine,
which includes church peopleand sometimes especially church people.
They said that mental healthin children today is more serious

(01:08:17):
and prevalent than many know.And they said that political agendas
from both sides havenegatively impacted real lives and
not just culture war. Culturewar, ID poll stuff. So how do you
address those things?
Okay, I think what's amazingabout these observations is they
take you Back to Genesis 3 andone of the, one of the problems that

(01:08:41):
I have and we all have is thatwe feel like the moment we're in
is either the worst or thebest or what have you. We lose sight
of what's permanent and wemake what's permanent what's passing.
And what's passing what'spermanent. There are have always
been emergencies all over theworld. And what's great is the challenge
church. Now that the churchhas been unleashed, the sending of

(01:09:03):
the Spirit, the church canenter into all those emergencies
that every part of the worldcomes to. And the people who work
on the front lines in ourchurch, we have a massive ministry
to frontline workers inmedical, police officer first responders
and so forth. And we'vedeveloped ministries along that.

(01:09:25):
Why have we done that? Becauseit worked out that in how God shaped
our particular church,Crossroads Community Church. We had
people there who loved Jesus,and that was the sphere they were
in. And they brought thegospel to it. They brought their
knowledge of the scriptures.So the scriptures and theology were
not the obstacle to it. It wasmaking sure, hey, I'm going to live
out the theology in this partof the world that God has placed

(01:09:48):
me in. And it's true thatsometimes people are treated more
poorly. And when people saythings like maybe, just maybe, the
pastor doesn't understand howpoorly I'm being treated, they may
be correct. But the reality ismost of us have pretty rotten days.

(01:10:11):
And what I hear in thatcomment is like an assumption that
the pastor can't anticipateeverything that's gone wrong in my
life. And listen, how do youget through that? You have genuine
relationships with people. Sothe pain you're going through, the
agony you are going through,that you need help and you need God's

(01:10:32):
presence with you through hispeople, that you bond together with
people around the scriptures.Our whole life group ministry that
I'm in charge of is about ifyou take. Take the people of God
and you let them wrestle withthe scriptures and you take them
through observation,interpretation, and application.
Those conversations bind upthe broken and give us a language

(01:10:55):
to be there and to recognizethat not only just one person or
two persons or three personsin a congregation need to treat people
better, but we all do. So allof these problems are diagnosed exactly
right. They're from ourperspective. We're all going through
it. And the answer is moreBible, more gospel, more people moved
by the spirit to go and liveit out. Because, yeah, children are

(01:11:16):
in a mental health crisis.We've destroyed as a culture the
institution of marriage, andthat has made things very unstable
for children. There's someother factors beyond that, but that's
at least one of the majorfactors. So how do we help as the
church people with that?
Well.
We get up close and helppeople before they get married, in

(01:11:39):
their marriage and after theif there's been an explosion of their
marriages. And we step in withthe gospel in all of those moments.
And what we don't need is justa pastor or a program. We need people
who are so focused on thegospel that by God's spirit, by God's
word, they rush out and meetthese broken problems. Now, as part

(01:12:00):
the of that, this last thinghere mentions political agendas.
So there's two extremes here.One is to preach a gospel that is
so devoid from politicalrealities that we separate theology
and politics from each other.And that typically doesn't go too

(01:12:20):
well. It also doesn't go wellwhen your politics and theology overlap
in such a way that you dowhere the politics governs your theology.
So I think that thatobservation is not wrong, but that
doesn't mean you don't dopolitics. You have to be able to
share the gospel with peoplebefore, during, and after an election.
And part of being in SouthCarolina is every four years, everyone

(01:12:43):
in the country pretends likewe matter. And everybody comes and
everybody calls and everybodylistens. And our people get passionate,
they get excited. And some ofthat's excellent if we can prioritize
the gospel and bring thegospel into how we politic. So one
of the things we challengefolks to do is don't demonize your
political enemy. You can behonest about where you disagree,

(01:13:03):
but don't go beyond that intothis massive amount or even small
amount of demonization,because you don't have to. People
know the score. So in all ofthese things, helping people to connect
the gospel to this very brokenworld, everything that is being described
here as an obstacle when I'mtrying to say this is the opportunity.

(01:13:25):
We are a generation appointedby God's Word and God's spirit to
go out and meet thesechallenges. And Christ is sufficient.
Scriptures are sufficient. TheWord of God is sufficient in every
sense of the Word to propel usto this ministry. And so that's the
way that the church getsfocused on the Great Commission,
the Great Commandments beinglived out in this world that desperately

(01:13:46):
needs life in Jesus.
All right, all right. So I'mpretty sure I got everybody. Raise
your hand if I didn't get you.Sorry, Dr. Beck, no camera, but I.
Know I got him.
So did anyone have anything toadd to that that they would like
to respond to? Somebody elsesaid or just would like to add to

(01:14:07):
the conversation? Not the. Theroundup is complete.
I know no one voted sexualityfor her, I think, but to Leah Robinson.
Dr. Leah. She mentioned howeveryone's a theologian. I think
a great example. If you'veever watched Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Disney's animated film, andhad an opinion about Frodo, just
period. That's theology.There's no way to have opinion about

(01:14:30):
him. That's not theology.
All right. Anything else? Cool.
Disney animation, I guess, isthe only thing that we needed to
touch on further. Yeah, yeah.
His name's Frollo, by the way.
Oh, my bad.
I will say, I do think thatsometimes we simplify what our task

(01:14:50):
is as ministers and aseducators. And I think that is a
difficult or an ill advisedthing to do. That's kind of my thoughts
as I'm listening to all ofthis is, um, we are dealing with
complex humans. We ourselveshave contexts and backgrounds and

(01:15:12):
thoughts on things. Thescripture is not straightforward.
It is that we wouldn't, Iwouldn't have a job if it was. We
have years of interpretationsthat are very, very different. And
these are all going to hit sodifferent to different members of
a congregation that I'm notbeing a nihilist here. I'm not saying
it means throw the task outthe window. I'm just saying we have

(01:15:35):
to realize that what we'redealing with is an incredibly complicated
system of which we are a part.And humans are absolutely capable
of understanding. We can talkabout the Holy Spirit being absolutely
capable of translating ourwords. I get that as well. But the
task at hand is incrediblydifficult and complicated. And so

(01:15:59):
fair play to anyone who goesinto this line of work and indeed
education as well. Becauseyou're translating something that's,
that's very difficult intosomething consumable, which is, is
not an easy task.
Yeah, well, I, I guess to, tothat point, nothing is that simple.
Like, like, I'm a terriblepodcaster, honestly, because, like,

(01:16:21):
I know we're supposed to justhave like good answers. And I'm like,
that's just. It's not becausethere, there are different things
when you interpret the Bible.Like you can get, I think you can
get a really good basicmessage of the book of Daniel, for
example, just reading it, youget a way cooler understanding of
Daniel. If you take Dr. Link'scourse on it though, can you get
to learn some of the languagestuff? I mean, and not just like

(01:16:44):
Bible, but even like lifestuff. Like people are meaner to
each other than you think. Andit's like, well, there's also a reason
that they're mean. And a lotof the times people are mean back
and that just actuallyperpetuates the thing. And it's like,
how do we break the cycle? Andevery little thing here, the politics
thing. Well, there's a reasonthat there's this polarization. There's
a reason that the church doeshave such an issue with Paul. Like
there isn't anything simple inany of it. I guess is part of my

(01:17:08):
problem is when we talk aboutbeing relevant and we're like, oh,
well, pastors are justpitching this message to me. I was
like, well, that's what you'veexpected of your pastor to go preach
a sermon and if you say youwant him to preach that sermon and
also relate to 200 people verypersonally so that he can speak that
message directly into yourlife perfectly, that's not realistic
from my perspective. Like,there's no way that one man is going

(01:17:31):
to have that intimate of arelationship with 200 different people.
Right? And so we developdifferent orders and how the church
should be structured and allthis stuff. And every time we do
that, humans are doing it, andthen there's a flaw in it. And then
somebody else says, well, thisis done wrong. So they build a whole
nother church. And thenthere's conflict between the two.
Like, nothing's simple.Everything's just a whole series
of complex systems. And itstarts with what you do have the

(01:17:55):
ability to affect and speakto. And how are you able to approach
the Bible for yourself thanthose around you? I think too often
we get this big picture ofeveryone's mean, and we got to address
that, and there isn't a way toaddress the big pictures. You actually
have to start at the area thatyou are in. I don't know, I'm just

(01:18:16):
kind of rambling.
No, I think it's solid. Ithink one of the things that sticks
out to me too, in that commentabout people are meaner than. Than
pastors assume or know orwhatever else. I think part of that,
and you guys can all feel freeto correct me if you feel differently,
but one of my thoughts on thatis just kind of the Christian culture

(01:18:37):
that exists in the world welive in, at least in the US can't
speak outside of that. We'vekind of like, sanitized so much of.
Of the way that we do thingsthat I know, for me, I worked at
a church a couple of yearsago. Great church, love people there,
awesome place. But I workedthere. And one of the things that

(01:18:59):
always was strange to me wasthat when I first got hired, one
of the things I was told waswhen you're preaching a message,
you always want to kind of putoff, was what I was told, not what
I agree with. Put off whateverhas happened to you that day so that
you can just be kind of this.This champion of excitement and kind
of like put on a fake face forthe three services you're about to

(01:19:20):
preach or whatever else. And Ithink there is an expectation for
a lot of people that theirpastor. I don't think it exists as
much as it used to, but Ithink a lot of people grew up with
the expectation that theirpastor is just this superhuman link
between you and God. And eventhose of us who don't want to think
that. I grew up in a SBCcircle as well, and that was kind

(01:19:41):
of hammered into the way thatI believed. So if my pastor had walked
on the stage and said, hey,guys, I'm having a rough time, like,
things are difficult. Peopleare difficult. Like, that would have
been you. You would havegotten crucified for doing that.
And I did, in fact, go onstage one Sunday and I said, hey,
guys, like, I got to betotally honest with you. Like, I

(01:20:02):
prepped this message. I'mexcited to preach it. Yes. But I
have had one of the worstSaturdays into this Sunday that I've
ever had in my life. And I hadsome people who were very glad to
see, especially younger, likeGen Z millennials who are like, yeah,
somebody's being authentic.And then I had other people who came
up and they were like, you'renot supposed to do that. Like, that's

(01:20:23):
not what pastors do. Pastorsare the ones. You're supposed to
be the smiling face that getsme through this next week. And I
think if we embracedauthenticity better as pastors, truthfully,
I do think that people wouldunderstand. Like, we've worked, many
of us here worked in churches,worked in ministries. I've had pastors
throw steel chairs at my headand break windows behind me in office

(01:20:44):
meetings. Like, church is.Honestly, I worked in a machine shop
before that with ex Marines,and they cost less and threw things
less and everything else.Like, church can be one of the. One
of the worst places to see theworst sides of people, unfortunately.
So, yeah, like, I think we allunderstand how bad people can get.

(01:21:04):
Like, I think that's not loston us. But if we pretend that everything
has to be peachy all the timeand again, everything in balance.
But if we pretend that there'snever anything wrong, that's what
people are gonna perceive. Youlook at, like, Christian music is
written for, like, a stressedout minivan mom. Like, what's gonna
encourage her to get throughthat moment? Well, that, that does

(01:21:26):
help her, but it's kind ofsanitized down to, like, just this
one singular message. And alot of the other music doesn't get
played. Christian movies are.We might have different opinions
around this room, but I can'tthink of one that I really enjoy
myself overall because it'skind of this, like, hope filled,
ambiguous message that endswith everything is nice and there's

(01:21:49):
a pretty bow wrapped aroundit. And at the end of the day, like,
the gospel is, yes, there isultimate hope. Unequivocally true,
while also being there sittingin the messiness and the crap that
we deal with on a daily basis.So I think authenticity leading with
that would break down some ofthose barriers that people have built
up over time as well.

(01:22:10):
Yeah, I like that a lot. I'mgoing to use the Christian media
thing to tie us into thisfinal question of the main part.
Because, hey, say what youwill about Christian media, we got
the chosen TV series now andthen the David series, regardless
of how correct we think theyare, like, production wise, those

(01:22:31):
are good shows, actuallysubjectively good tv. And what's
interesting about that, to me,especially when we did the series,
a lot of people were like,actually, I want to know more about,
like, how was Jesus presentthrough all time? Or what did Jesus
teach? Or, like. Like, a lotof people were asking, like, I just
want to know more about Jesus.Or the other one that was interesting

(01:22:54):
is like, why does my church dothis? Like, I don't. We do communion.
Why do we do communion everyweek? Why do we do this? Like, they
genuinely just don't know whythey do the things that they show
up and do. They just show upand do them. So, yeah, the Jesus
thing and why do we do what wedo? That stuff being brought up,
I thought was reallyinteresting. I thought it was a good
thing to start kind of gettingnear the end of this with. So anybody

(01:23:14):
want to talk, like, as far asthat goes, like, people wanting to
know more about Jesus, I guessmost of us would probably say that's
a good thing. But how do youguys respond to some of that?
I would like to speak. I dothink that there should be, like,
most churches should offer achurch history, you know, like once
a month, just to talk aboutthe history of their own church or
denomination, at least,because it's interesting. And I wish

(01:23:37):
I didn't have to go look upthe history of my church. I wish
that there was, you know,obviously not every church, especially
in my denomination, which ispoor, can have, like, a history book
available to go, you know,check out or like a little library
to go check out. But if, likeonce a month on a Wednesday, we just

(01:23:58):
did church history, I thinkthat would be really cool. And I
think churches should do that.And I think a lot of churches can
do that, just not a lot ofProtestant churches. That's what
I think.
Yeah, I think that's a greatidea. I actually get my seminary
students to do what I call achurch map of their own church that

(01:24:18):
they're in, which is basicallywhat's going on around the church?
What's the history of the areayou're in and then what's going on
in the church? What's thehistory of. Of the people in your
church? Talk to the olderfolks, talk to, you know, understand
the. That your church is aliving organism and that this is
all really important. And thenalso gauge what people know and what

(01:24:39):
they don't know. You know,that that's a good space to do it
and just have a chat withthem. It could even be, you know,
it doesn't have to be a formalinterview. And they actually found
it, they would present onthis, but they found it pretty rewarding
because it actually gave thema real understanding of the actual
sort of living organism of thechurch. So I think it's a great idea.

(01:25:00):
Yeah, I think it would help alot just to boost connectivity with
your own church and actuallybeing able to claim ownership and
feel like you are a real partof your church. So it could help
a lot. But anyone else haveanything to say about, like what,
how these people or why thesepeople might think we don't discuss

(01:25:23):
it enough? Who thinks we don'ttalk about Jesus Christ enough? Is
it because we're separatingthe man from the book?
Yes. So the Scriptures are howyou should understand Jesus? The
Scriptures.
Are.
One of the challenges is aninsufficient view of Scripture. We've

(01:25:46):
talked about that. A couplefolks have mentioned the nature of
Scripture. And the corequestion is whether or not Moses
and the prophets wrote aboutJesus. Now, my answer is a blunt
and direct yes. Moses and theprophets wrote to us and they wrote
to us about Jesus andeverything that's applied in that.
And when people say that youdon't talk about Jesus, what they

(01:26:09):
may be experiencing is thatwe've accepted a false division between
theology and practice. Inother words, if you take everything
and you immediately wrap it upin three points of application and
give people very little timein the text, very little time in
understanding how. Because theOld Testament, the way that it talks

(01:26:29):
about Jesus, is not identicalto the way it gets expressed in the
New Testament itself. And sospending time showing people through
not only sermons, but wementioned our mentorships and the
other things that we do indiscipleship at our church, they
are fundamentally making surethat all of us are developing our
theology of who Jesus is, whoGod is, who we are, how salvation

(01:26:55):
works, all of those categoriesmust come from the Scriptures. And
this is, to me, thefundamental distinction that should
mark us as Protestantchurches. And it is. Dr. Beck is
an expert in the Reformationin particular. And I think he would

(01:27:18):
argue that the passion for theScriptures to be proclaimed to the
people is what has and shouldmark us. And I recognize that this
is not easy to do, but that'sbecause people need Jesus rather
than just us. And what we'redeciding and how we do ministry is

(01:27:38):
what is the nature of how theGospel itself changes people? And
it's the word of God and thespirit of God colliding in somebody's
heart, drawing them torepentance in life. And everybody
is struggling with. Withsomething, and the Gospel can meet
all those things, but we haveto be humble. I think we've mentioned
being genuine. I totally agreewith that. But to me, being genuine

(01:28:01):
doesn't say it's all toocomplex and make myself as an expert.
To be genuine is to saydespite the complexity of the world
and despite the complexity ofthe Scriptures, I can come along
and tell you what theScriptures say about God and myself
and the cross, and we can pullthat together and we can begin to
read the Scriptures togetheras a community connected not only

(01:28:23):
to those in our church, but tothose who've been reading the Scriptures
for thousands of years. Andthat those conversations being lived
out really do change us in theworld. And. And to me, that's. That's
always going to come back tothe answer. And. And I think that
it is life giving in ways thatare miraculous, and they are. And

(01:28:43):
that's because God's presentin the midst of it.
Yeah. Yeah, man. Good stuff.
Hey, Josh, can I add somethingto this as well?
Yeah.
Okay, so is it Dr. Link orPastor Link? Pastor Link. So, yeah,
so just kind of off the heelsof that, too. I think I heard in
the beginning that he said hedidn't come into, if I'm correct,

(01:29:07):
until. To, you know, intoChrist until 31. And so I think.
I think that is correct.
So I'm like a third generationborn into the church. So my grandparents
went to this church, the1950s. My mom was born into this
church. I was born in thischurch. So all. I mean, I ate, sleep

(01:29:29):
and breathed church. And so Ilove that there's a variety of contexts
here. And I'm sure ifeverybody else spoke, we would see
just some variations of howpeople came to know Christ and how
that transitioned. But takingin context of where people, I don't

(01:29:51):
want to say tap into Jesus,but get a sense of the need for Jesus
and the Gospel in their lifeand how that opens up, it's different
for one, just growing up underthat. I think that Transition is
totally different. And so Ihear some of the things that you're
saying and I'm like, yes, youknow, I agree with that. And I think

(01:30:15):
you said, and you always comeback to the answer. And my answer
will probably be somethingdifferent, but I totally say yes
to what you say too. And so mecoming through, it's like I've heard
scripture. I was, you know,under the scripture, I could, you
know, speak King Jameslanguage fluent and but it was just

(01:30:35):
like that, that, that wasn'ttransformative to me until I hit
a hard spot. So the Word wasin me. And then the imago dei, the
knowing who, who God is, whohe's called me to be, and then the
scriptures coming back tolife. So I do feel scripture is so

(01:30:56):
very important as well. I justdon't know if I would, I would go
and put like, I don't know theorder. Like, I think that's the mystery
of what is inside of me, ofI'm not sure, you know, depending
on the circumstance. I don'tthink there's like a one size fits
all for me. Today it may beabsolutely scripture, tomorrow it

(01:31:17):
might be, you know, somethingelse. But I love how you bring that
into the table too. That,that, nope, you have, you, you've
mapped this out and this is,this is the go to, this is what works
for me. And I'm stillfiguring, I, I mean, I'm as an adult,
a 45 year old woman stillwrestling with, you know, the mystery

(01:31:38):
of God. And just, you know,the scriptures is being opened up
in different contexts and youknow, just, you're Talking about
Genesis 3, Genesis 11. I justread those passages, you know, over
the last couple of weeks. I'mjust like, yes, you know, I get that
too. And there's this wholeother side of emotional, healthy

(01:31:59):
spirituality, the mentalhealth, all of those components,
the whole, the whole self toit. Leah, I think you said the practical
theology. I'm so interested inthat terminology. I mean, I'm just
like looking around the circlehere too. Keenan, I think if I'm
pronouncing your name right,like you're even coming into the
mental health world of saying,how can we, how can we really develop

(01:32:22):
this whole self in our peoplethat are sitting in our congregation?
And I'm just like, wow, youknow, the internal family systems
through the, you know, mentalhealth field is, has so much more
to offer as well. And so allof that combined, I'm just like,
man, I'd love to sit on a teamwith all of you. You Know, with all
of the things that you bring,I just think it would be fantastic.

(01:32:42):
So thank. Thank you for. Yeah.All that you have shared.
Well, that's very kind. I ammuch, much older than 31, and I did
grow up going to church. Andyes, it was a total calamity that
brought me. Total calamitybrought on by myself that eventually
led to the Lord, led me to theLord when I. When I recognized that

(01:33:06):
in my mother's death that Ihad devoted 15 years to chasing a
dream that was utterlymeaningless when I should have been
ministering to her. So I thinkthis is the point is, is that what
is constant and permanent hasto shape what is applicable. Passing.
Right. So truth can and mustinvade and perpetuate every part

(01:33:30):
of our lives. And that truthcomes from God. He is the Word.
Right?
Christ is the Word. And. Andhere's the thing. That Word is so
powerful that all thesepassing moments are by now nature
important. Passing does notmean unimportant. Passing means that
they have to be grounded inwhat comes from Christ and goes back

(01:33:50):
to Christ. In other words,what we're leading people to do is
to worship Christ. Worship isthe right response to the right revelation
of who God is. And that iswhat takes somebody who was a totally
selfish jerk in ways I canbarely begin to explain to you and
transform him. Not just aperson with improved behavior, but
a person who can now see thatGod is with us and good to us in

(01:34:12):
a way I could never seebefore. And it's God's Word and God's
Spirit that transforms anyone.And I mean, you can see it in Augustine's
Confessions. You can see it ifyou go back in Paul's own story.
All of us are in great need ofthe Messiah that Moses, the prophets,
and the apostles promise usand give us in Jesus.

(01:34:34):
I know a few of us. I'm seeingfaces that, like, we want to respond
to different things or likewe're. We're still kind of. Kind
of biting at the bit on somethings, but we are over time. And
I have to go, so. But wrappingthis up before TJ does his bit, you
know, we usually ask for apractical action, tangible thing,

(01:34:56):
kind of whatever. But I feltlike this whole thing was sort of
a practical action. Liketalking about, like, how can this
stuff be practical? How can itbe relevant? Talked about, like how
the world. We just need toacknowledge sometimes that it is
complex. There isn't a simpleanswer all the time, or seeing how
we need to be more genuinewith people, relational. I think
talking about the Bible isimportant. You know, I Definitely
agree with Dr. Link on some ofthat. And of course, we got some.

(01:35:20):
Some things that we probablycould push each other on some of
the answers and stuff likegive it do. But I'm going to throw
this to Dr. Beck to give him awarning if we take some of this stuff
serious, like the things thatpeople are concerned about and have
these genuine conversationsthat you spoke of earlier and realize
the complexity of things. Dr.Beck, what. What do you think we

(01:35:42):
could see change in the worldor in our churches as we take some
of this stuff maybe a littlebit more seriously?
I mean, I think if we wouldtake the thing seriously, draw the
connections back to truth andback to Christ, showing people ultimately
in the end that what weproclaim does make a difference,
that our, you know, ourorthodoxy does in fact, produce orthopraxy.

(01:36:06):
And in doing so, not only arewe recognizing the imago DEI and
all of those around us, butwe're also fulfilling the second
greatest commandment, which ofcourse is to love our neighbors like
our ourselves. And in doingso, as Luther and Calvin both said,
that's when we become mostlike God. And so if the goal of this
life experience isgodlikeness, that we might become

(01:36:27):
more like Christ, who is theperfect image, the invisible God,
to prepare us for eternity.The way we begin doing that now is
begin doing what Christ didwhen he was here, which is loving
our neighbors, loving themenough to treat them and care for
them well, but also lovingthem enough to tell them the truth
with grace and kindness also.
Yeah, yeah. So before TJ doeshis bit, this is only break in a

(01:36:52):
case of emergency. Does anyonehave something that they absolutely
must say or address or they'renot going to feel good about themselves
later? Is that just givingthat opportunity, given how many
people are here? Okay.
All right, so before we wrapup, we do just ask everyone to. To
share a moment where they sawGod recently. We call this our God
moment Creative. I know Ialways make Josh go first to give

(01:37:16):
the rest of us time to thinkof our God moment for the week. And
I think some of us are goingto have plenty of time to do it.
So, Josh, do you have a Godmoment for us?
Yeah, every moment's Godmoment, right? No, I just finished
finals for my first fullsemester for my master's program.
So my God moment is Isurvived. And I am going to get to

(01:37:39):
go to the beach this weekendand rest. Or if you want to spiritualize
it, rest in the Lord. But,like, realistically, probably A book
written by Victor Hugo.
Good book. Yeah. So I'll gonext. My, for me, God moment is,
as you all know, because we'reall American. Mother's Day just happened
and I got to see, you know,not only my mom, but my dad's mom

(01:38:02):
and my mom's mom. And it'sjust nice, you know, to get all these
people together and spend timewhile we have them and the time.
It was really nice to see thewhole family. It really does a lot
of good to spend time withyour family, I think. So I was super
grateful for that. And I'mjust going to go in like clockwise

(01:38:26):
order for me from here. So,Dr. Beck, do you have a God moment
for us this week?
Yeah, last week I spent a weekin the mountains at our cabin up
in the Smokies, and my brotherin law came down with me. And he
fits a lot of your all'sdescriptions. Grew up in the church.
Ish walked away is lukewarmabout it. And throughout the week,

(01:38:46):
you know, we don't argue, wedon't talk politics, and we don't
get into conspiracy theoriesand whatnot, but just, you know,
try to live out, you know,what I believe in front of him and
let him be true to himself andnot feel like he has to have, you
know, perfect manners with me.And we went to dinner with a friend
of mine who happened to be intown also, and the friend asked me
to pray for dinner. And Inoticed starting from that meal forward,

(01:39:08):
every time we sat down for ameal, rather than jumping into the
food, my brother in lawstopped and prayed for his food for
himself before he started. Andso the God moment here may just be
the seeds of, you know, thereis truly redeeming value in what
we proclaim, not just what wegrew up and heard.
All right, I like that. Dr.Leah, do you have a God moment for

(01:39:29):
us?
Of course. So my new book ison the evils of conversion therapy,
especially in the southeast.And so I actually interviewed someone
who had survived, thankgoodness, conversion therapy and

(01:39:51):
this, this week. And I've donea lot of ethnography in my research
history, but this one hitbecause this guy was from Georgia,
like I'm from, and he was justtelling me about all the stuff that
they sort of said to him inthese moments and how he came very

(01:40:14):
close to losing his life athis own hand. And now he is back
in the church, has a lovingpartner, they're married and very
happy and survived andthrived, I will say. But just hearing
his story and just how he wasable to come back after all that

(01:40:35):
had been said to him, to mewas such a God moment because everything
was pitted against the factthat he would walk away, and rightfully
so, never come back. And hedid, and he was alive to tell me
about it. And so that, to me,was, was deeply emotional. We both
had a good, good cry over it. So.

(01:40:57):
Yeah, that's awesome. Allright. And, Marie, do you have a
God moment for us this week?
I do. Yesterday I was sittingin my quiet time, and the scripture
came that I read. It was John7 and 38, and it says, out of your
heart shall flow rivers ofliving water. And that out of everything
that just spoke to me, and Ijust went and, you know, looked up
like living waters and, youknow, shall flow and all those things.

(01:41:19):
Went to work, came back,talked about it some more, and went
on a walk with my daughter.And just from all the rain, usually
you don't hear streams flowingaround here. And these were random.
Like, as we walked, I couldhear rushing water, and I just paused
and I would, I took like, six,a couple short videos, and there
was like, three differentplaces along our, Our, our walk that

(01:41:40):
I, I, I heard the water first,and then I looked a little closer
and had to look through thetrees just to see them. And it just,
just a huge God moment. Itjust blessed my soul to know that
even this verse and just what?Just God speaks through nature. And
that was just one of thoseconnection points for me.
Awesome. And Kino, do you haveGod moment for us?

(01:42:03):
Yes. So this past Sunday, madean announcement that we're going
to do baptisms. And I had 10individuals approach me to wanting
to be baptized, which isexciting. You know, we're Methodist,
so we have three differentmodes, but I was born and raised
Baptist, so I said, we'regoing to, we're going to dunk you.
So I have to ask my, mytrustees to get a pool, and we're

(01:42:25):
going to do baptisms nextmonth. And I'm excited.
Oh, yeah? Yeah. I do feel likeit's a disservice to any church that
doesn't have, like, thebaptism tank up there behind the
pulpit. I know only Baptistchurches have that, but I love that.
That's so funny to me. Youlook behind the pastor, there's just
a secret pool back there.That's awesome.
It's a really precarious thingto do. Them we had to go through

(01:42:48):
in my seminary, like, thewhole, like, bending of the legs.
So you didn't. Because youdon't want to drown while you baptize
someone. It's not good.
It's not a good look, but Ithink that is awesome architecture.
So, Pastor Matt, do you have aGod moment for us this week?
Of course, yeah. I got acouple of them, but I'll try to limit
it down. I was going to saywe're. We're Mennonite brethren over

(01:43:10):
at our church, and nobodyknows what that is, but we're Anabaptist,
so we've still got a baptismalback there, too. But with that being
said, I've almost toresomebody's ACL before, so, yeah,
you got to be careful with howyou do that God moment. Glad some
of y' all. Y' all enjoyedthat. No God moment. I think one
big one is we're. We'regetting to go back out to visit our

(01:43:33):
friends in Utah. I worked outthere for five years at a church,
and. And still some of ourclosest friends are out there. And
so we're excited to go backand visit. And, you know, when you
leave, we left on good terms.I mean, I love everybody out there,
but when you leave a church,you never know if the opportunity
to come back to thatparticular church is still going

(01:43:53):
to be an open door in one way,form or fashion. And even though
it was all great, I stillwasn't sure. And then I was talking
with the pastor out there, andhe said, hey, well, while you're
in town, would you want topreach? And I was like, absolutely,
yeah, that'd be awesome. So Iget to go back and see our friends
and family out there andactually get to share the message
at what used to be twoservices, and now they've got three.

(01:44:16):
And I forgot I signed up topreach three services, so do pray
for me for that. But with thatbeing said, excited to be out there
again. So that was a big one.
That's awesome. And Dr. Link,do you have a God moment for us?
Yeah, my God moment is a bithumbling. So I have five children.
One of my children hit kind ofa wall the past two weeks. And in

(01:44:39):
my inability to actually fixthe situation, it was great because
God was making very clear tome my own idols. And so the God moment
was that the fatherhood of Godwas expressed in how he's taking
care of my son despite me, notbecause of me. And so that is sufficient,

(01:45:02):
and that is good, and he'sgoing to thrive. I'm not worried
about him in that regard, butit was. What I love are the God moments
where my own idolatry draws meto the repentance and where. Where
faith can finally be unveiledin a part of my life that maybe was
a bit too closed off to that.
All right. Yeah. It's awesome.So thank you all so much for giving

(01:45:26):
us so much of your time. Thisis the longest whole church episode
ever. If you're listening andyou listening now. Wow. And thank
you. Please consider sharingthe episode with a friend and enemy.
Share with your cousins, andcheck out the merch to support the
show. You've already done somuch, you know, an hour and a half
of your time. What's. What'sanother, like, 10 bucks on top of

(01:45:47):
that? You know, buy thecisgeek shirt by the whole church
shirt. They're good shirts.
Yeah.
Josh is wearing one right now.It's super comfy.
It is comfy. Yeah. And ifsomehow you're still not tired of
podcasts, listen to Theologyon the rocks, the Dr. Lee Robinson.
I also, we have other shows inour network if you. If you want to
check some of those out. I'mabout to be on an episode of Kung
Fu Pizza Party talking aboutthe Jackie Chan and Karate Kid movie.

(01:46:10):
That's gonna be a lot of fun.
I'm gonna.
I'm gonna be on that same showof talking about Karate Kid 3. So.
Nice.
Speaking of Josh Patterson wasthe one that was texting me, and
he says to tell Matt and Joshand TJ High. So you can blame him
for. You can blame him for the dings.
Yeah. Thanks, Josh. He is.Yeah. His fault for. For three of
us being here or maybe four. Idon't know. He's introduced me a

(01:46:34):
lot of people. Yeah. So listento him, too.
No. So we hope you enjoyed theshow. Next week, we're going to be
having Josh Patterson and EricKincaid, the founder of the Facebook
group Christian Podcasters, todiscuss the visceral reaction other
Christians had to a podcast JPhad he shared in the group. After
that, Joshua is going to beinterviewing Pastor Parker about
the messianic Jewish templethat he leads in Charlotte, North
Carolina. I was absent. Thenwe were going to have on Kendall

(01:46:57):
Vanderslae to discuss herbook, Bake and Pray, and some of
the recipes we hired or triedfrom the book. Finally, at the end
of season one, Francis Chanwill be on the show. Maybe.
What?
Yeah, he doesn't know aboutit. So there's always that problem.
And we do.
Will always persist. It'llnever end.
We do want to acknowledge PopeFrancis's passing. Our plan for the

(01:47:18):
end of the season two wasalways to have the Pope on. And currently
the Pope now speaks English.So this is a big opportunity for
us. May Pope Francis rest inpeace, but there are silver linings.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Reflections on 'The Whole Church Job Fair': A Round Table Discussion

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Reflections on 'The Whole Church Job Fair': A Round Table Discussion

Stuff You Should Know