May 23, 2025 • 42 mins
In this special bonus episode of The Whole Church Podcast, we engage in a profound discourse with Professor Christopher Moreland regarding the legacy of Pope Francis and the anticipated direction of the papacy under Pope Leo XIV. At the forefront of our dialogue is the exploration of the implications of Pope Francis's tenure, characterized by his remarkable humility and outreach to marginalized communities, and how these elements may inform the governance and doctrinal stance of his successor. As we reflect on the past, we also delve into the expectations surrounding Pope Leo XIV, whose approach is anticipated to emphasize doctrinal clarity while maintaining a commitment to social justice. This conversation seeks to provide listeners with insights into the evolving landscape of Catholic leadership and the potential for greater unity within the Church amidst a backdrop of global division. Ultimately, we invite our audience to consider how these leadership transitions may resonate beyond the confines of Catholicism, potentially influencing broader Christian unity and dialogue.
A profound examination unfolds as TJ Blackwell and Joshua Noel engage with Professor Christopher Moreland in a reflective discourse concerning the recent transition within the papacy. The dialogue meticulously scrutinizes the legacy of Pope Francis, delving into the nuances of his tenure, characterized by a distinct humility and a palpable concern for the marginalized. Both hosts and Professor Moreland articulate the significance of Francis's approach to leadership, emphasizing the necessity of returning to the core tenets of faith amidst a politically polarized society. The discussion further articulates the anticipated papacy of Pope Leo XIV, exploring the implications of his doctrinal conservatism juxtaposed with social liberalism. As they navigate through theological and sociopolitical landscapes, the hosts invite listeners to ponder the impact of these papal transitions on the broader Christian community, thereby positioning the Church as a beacon of unity in contemporary discourse.
Takeaways:
- The discussion highlights the essential teachings of Pope Francis, emphasizing the core of our faith as centered on Jesus Christ.
- Professor Moreland articulates the necessity for the church to prioritize community and compassion amidst contemporary political divisions.
- The hosts reflect on Pope Francis' legacy of humility, particularly in his choice of a simple processional vehicle for public appearances.
- Looking ahead to Pope Leo XIV, the conversation explores expectations regarding the continuity of outreach to marginalized communities.
- The importance of understanding the papacy through a lens that transcends American political dichotomies is underscored as vital for grasping the current ecclesial landscape.
- The hosts emphasize the significance of the Pope as a unifying figure in a fractured world, highlighting a desire for hope and connection.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:25):
First Peter 3, 8, 9 in theChristian Standard Bible say, finally,
all of you, be like minded andsympathetic, love one another and
be compassionate and humble.Not paying back evil for evil or
insult for insult, but on thecontrary, giving a blessing, since
you were called for this, sothat you may inherit a blessing.
(00:46):
And. And in this section ofscripture, the author is giving instructions
to the church on how to behavein community with one another. Chris
Moreland, how do you believethe church might be better able to
practice this in our world today?
Certainly think that in a timewhere we are so divided by politics
and partisanship that we haveto go back to what is at the core
(01:11):
of our faith. And, and thecore of our faith is Jesus Christ
himself. That is the startingpoint. That is the ending point.
Yeah, good stuff. Hey, guys,welcome back to the Whole Church
Podcast, possibly yourfavorite church unity podcast. And
(01:33):
again, you're like, wait aminute, we just had a bonus. You
just did a regular episode.What is this? It's another bonus.
Yeah, it's. Yeah, we're fullof bonuses this May because the other
podcast we help withsystematic Ecology is slow in May.
So we said, wait, instead ofrelaxing, what if we just did more
work somewhere else? So nowwe're here doing more work, talking
about the Pope because be ashame if the Whole Church podcast
(01:53):
was like, yeah, but we're notgoing to talk about that. We'd be
dropping the ball. So since wewe have a new pope. Pope Francis
has passed. We want to reflecton Pope Francis's legacy. Look ahead
to Pope Leo xiv. And whobetter do it than our friend return
guest that you all know verywell. Professor Christopher Moreland,
welcome back, man. It's greatto have you.
It's been too long.
Yeah, yeah, it has. AndProfessor Moreland, you're still
(02:16):
teaching women in religion atuntw, right? Yes, University of North
Carolina Wilmington, for thosewho don't know.
Fantastic semester. Everyonegot an A in that class this semester
and only one person got an Aminus. It was the group that we had
this semester was phenomenal.
And that's how, you know, I'mnot in school anymore. I'm also here
with the reason for religionfor some people. Some people were
(02:41):
like, this world seems toogreat with TJ in it. There must be
something more than this if TJcan exist. And that's how people
discovered God, you know, TJon podcast. I don't think that's
sacrilege. It might be, butit's not, if I say so.
Might be getting close.
Yeah, it's okay. Pope Leo the14th, he's too busy to. To let us
(03:02):
know that I'm a heretic.
Yeah, I hope.
Probably.
Man, talk about a bad review.
Yeah. Pope within his firsthundred days. I just want to let
you all know specifically,Josh Knoll has bad opinions.
Yeah, that would be great forus. Anathema. But Blow podcast, though.
(03:24):
Yeah. If you like what we'redoing here, check out the Onzone
Ministries podcast networkwebsite, the links below, and if
you're listening on ourYouTube channel, hit like and subscribe
before the Pope exiles us.
Yeah, that's right.
That extra support.
Yeah. Yeah. I like how westarted this gimmick of, like, the
(03:44):
end of season one, FrancisChan's gonna be on, and then we were
like, oh, also season two isgonna have whoever the Pope is, and
now the gimmick has shifted toactually, the Pope's just gonna exile
us before season one ends.
Yeah.
Plot twist. Yeah. Oh, man. Butyou guys know church podcast. You
have to have the holysacrament for unity, which is silliness.
You know, it's possible toimpossible to be divided when you're
(04:07):
being as silly as I like tobe. Even for bonuses, we gotta do
it. And this one is topicrelative, and it's actually one that
I think a lot of people areasking right now on the Internet.
What's the most American thingwe can imagine the new Pope having
done or will have done,however you want to word it. You
(04:29):
know, it's hard for mebecause, like, I don't know how you
rank, like, how Americansomething is like, obviously eating
a hot dog, I feel like isAmerican. You know, I feel like I
can imagine this Pope havinggone to Disney World with friends
and eating one of those giantMickey Mouse things on a stick. I
can see that being somethingthat might have happened, and I feel
(04:50):
like that's pretty American,so I'm gonna stick with that deep
fried thing on a stick inDisney World. I think it's possible.
TJ Before Dr. Moylan, who Isay Professor Moylan before he gives
probably a real answer. Heprobably knows enough that he's gonna
school us on our sillyquestion. But, tj, what. What's.
(05:11):
Where you going?
Hot dog on Wrigley Field inChicago. That doesn't even seem like
a possibility for me. Thatseems like an almost guarantee.
Yeah, that seems almostcertain, but that's.
That's as American as it gets.
All right. All right,Professor Moreland, how about you,
man? What's the most Americanthing you can imagine this Pope having
done?
I imagine that this isprobably the first pope that has
(05:33):
ever had a shot of Malort before.
Oh, that's probably true.
Yeah. An experience.
That's a. Yeah. And anAmerican experience indeed. Yeah.
Yeah. I wonder if this popehas a favorite bourbon. That's something
I would like to know. But assomeone whose family came from Kentucky,
(05:53):
I'd be interested.
But this is a special episodein honor of the new Roman Catholic
Pope. And before we discussthe change, what should we gleam
from and reflect on from PopeFrancis time in the papacy? For me,
I know, like, I don't think weever had a pope as humble as Pope
Francis. His processionalpopemobile, I think they switched
(06:18):
it for his funeralproceedings, but was like a bone
stock minimum options, Mexicanbuilt Dodge Ram. That was pretty
great. For me, that's asymbol. But what do you think, Professor
Christopher Moreland?
(06:38):
Well, I think that somethingwe have to be on guard against is
performative humility. I thinkwe have, I think that it's very deadly.
I think that pride comes inmany forms. And the sort of pride
that we recognize instantly isa form of pride. But pride also can
be by attracting too muchattention to oneself, by sort of
(07:01):
over emphasizing humility andbeing like, look at me, look at me,
look how humble I am. So Ithink that it's something that to
some people, some peopleobviously found it very inspirational.
Others, I think, had adifferent approach to some of these
what you would sort of callostentatious displays of humility.
(07:24):
Yeah, I, I see where you'recoming from. It always came off as
genuine to me, but maybe it'sbecause I don't speak his language.
But also, yeah, like wementioned earlier, I read most of
his books. I know he made alot of off the cuff remarks outside
of that. So I mostlyencountered him through like this
polished. Someone editorprobably saw it beforehand and then
someone translated it andthen, you know, was like, oh, this
(07:46):
is nice. Actually, one of myfavorite books on the Sermon on the
Mount is from while he wasPope. And I have it on my bookshelf
over there proudly. I love it.For me, the thing that really stood
out to me is I don't know ifI've, in my lifetime I've seen a
world leader who seemed likehe cared for other people so much.
(08:07):
But at the same time, I doknow, like you mentioned some of
the off the cuff remarks. Alot of Christian leaders where, you
know, we were seeing a timewhere Baptists were kind of like,
hey, we agree with some ofthis traditional views of Catholicism.
We agree with some of thisstuff and we see a little bit Brutus
building and then he wouldstart seeing some of the stuff. And
it felt to me, and this isjust my perspective, a lot of the
(08:28):
Catholics were like, well, Idon't like this guy who were more
conservative. And then more ofthe progressives were trying to really
cheer him on. And then otherchurches, if they were more progressive,
suddenly were like, oh, welike Catholics now, than some of
the ones that weretraditional. It felt like a lot of
divisions were made off ofsome of these off the cuff remarks
of like and stuff that Iprobably agreed with. But it was
kind of one of those, whenyou're a world leader, you can't
just say something like that.If you're going to make a statement,
(08:50):
make a statement, have it wellthought out, something like that.
Not just kind of a, hey, youknow, we care about this too. And
it's like, hold up, what doyou mean by that? So that's kind
of my sentence I wanted toread for me. So this is a song that
speaks a lot to me. And we'regoing to. Me and Pastor Will Rose
are going to do a review ofthe song later on. But part of the
song really made me think ofPope Francis. So if you want to know,
(09:12):
just kind of my take and whatthis is just. I don't know why the
message of the song makes methink of what I think his biggest
message probably was. So I'mjust going to read part of this.
It's Citizens by John Guerra.You're building a city where we arrive
as immigrants. You call uscitizens and you welcome us as children
home we arrive as immigrants.Is there a way to love always Living
(09:36):
in enemy hallways? Don't myfoes, don't know my foes from my
friends and don't know myfriends anymore. Power has several
prizes Handcuffs come in allsizes Love has a million disguises
but winning is simply not one.I like the message of the song and
to me, that's one of the stuffthat I like. I feel like that's probably
(09:56):
a lot of what he was allabout. There's plenty of other stuff
to criticize or to, you know,we like or don't like. We could probably
debate, but I feel like thatfeels like a lot of, like, his heart,
which probably comes from thefact that he was from the Francis
Franciscus.
Yeah, he wasn't from thefirst, but, you know, he was very
inspired by the life of St.Francis. And I think it has a lot
(10:17):
to do with the fact that hecame from a country that, you know,
it's not like, it's notArgentina's, not Third World, but
it has problems withdevelopment and that there is both
great wealth and great povertyin Argentina.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so we all heard it pastcouple of years, oh, the woke pope.
(10:39):
The Pope's too woke. I justthink that's a super funny sentence.
The woke pope. Yeah, I know,but now people are talking about,
right. Leo, 14, is sociallyliberal and doctrinally conservative.
And how true do you think thatassessment is? And what do you think
about it?
Well, it's so hard. I mean, weuse these. One of my past mentors
(11:02):
and advisors, Father Dr.Kenichi, once said that these are
what we call heroisticcategories of convenience, words
like conservative, liberal,progressive, traditionalist, and
that these terms by themselvescan be very limiting. I think that
in the post Trump era,conservatism means something entirely
(11:23):
different than it did during,like, the Bush McCain era. So we
have to. First off, when I saythis, I want to acknowledge those
limitations very clearly. Iwould say that the new pope, I think,
will continue Francis's legacytowards the marginalized and those
(11:43):
that society does not havetime for, the migrants, the poor,
people from the Third World,people who have been ostracized.
However, I think that Leo isgoing to be much more doctrinally
concise, succinct. I thinkthat he is going to focus a lot more
(12:03):
on the precision of his words.I think that he understands that
every single thing that hesays and does is going to be scrutinized,
and that because of 24,7 mediaand social media, you really have
to be very careful about whatyou say to make sure that you don't
scandalize the faithful. Ithink that we will definitely see
(12:26):
more of a reinforcement oftraditional Catholic teaching. You
know, but these are things,you know, we call it traditional,
but these are really thingsthat the overwhelming majority of
Catholics agree on. You know,we're talking about the unique salvific
nature of Jesus Christ, forexample, the nature of the Holy Trinity,
(12:47):
you know, the core stuff, someof which was inadvertently brought
into question during the reignof the.
Yeah, yeah. So one of theinteresting things for me, so I was
going back, getting mymasters, having to write some systematic
theology papers, you know, allthat kind of stuff. And now I'm in
(13:10):
the Lutheran Church, theAugsburg Confession, something I've
been really interested in,part of the Roman Catholic response
to the Augsburg Confession,which was like Lutheran's basically
trying to say, here's what webelieve, and trying to find some
kind of common ground with theCatholic tradition. One of their
responses against it sort ofhad to do with the necessity of the
(13:33):
papacy. Having a pope as asymbol of unity within the church,
as a central figure, that wasreally stressed as one of the big
disagreement points. I don'tknow. I'm struggling there. But how
do you think the papacy mightadd to unity amongst Catholic believers?
And is there a significance,keeping that in mind, that the new
(13:53):
Pope isn't American? Does thathelp or hurt the unity right now?
In our times, when peopledon't like.
America too much, it's reallygoing to help with unity. The other
thing is that the previouspontiffs had a very clear dislike
of the United States and avery clear dislike of what I would
call sort of the Greater West.So that would be like Great Britain,
France, Germany. That's notreally that part of the world did
(14:18):
not seem to particularlyinspire him. I think that there are
some legitim. I think there'ssome very legitimate critiques he
had. Some of it, however, wasleft over from his Peronist Argentinian
background. Very 1970s thirdworld internationalism. That is really
not. It's not completely, howwould I say, appropriate in 2025.
(14:44):
It doesn't deal with realitytension. There's been a lot of tension
between the Americans and theprevious pontiff. I think this is
going to be an incrediblyunifying factor. I think that if
he continues in his presentvein, I mean, he's only been Pope
for like, what, less than twoweeks? If he continues in the current
(15:07):
vein that he is going rightnow, he is going to be able to unify
by both people who feel alittle more progressive and people
who lean a little moretraditionalist. I think that he will
maintain Francis outreach tothe Third World while strengthening
relationships with the westand the United States. It's very
(15:30):
clear that he is extremelywell loved in the United States already.
And it's been reallyheartening to see that everyone seems
to like him, whether you'reCatholic, whether you're Protestant,
whether you're Jewish, even myfriends that are atheists and agnostics,
like, hey, you got a coolPope. We love your new Pope. You
know, he's awesome. Like, andthey're excited also about, like,
(15:51):
there's, like, won't it be socool when he comes back to Chicago?
So these are people that don'tbelieve in God. These are people
that think religion is sillyand superstitious, but they vary.
There's something about himthat they find captivating and, like,
they Are, like, excited about.
Yeah, I think what it is fortwo things. The Conclave, I think,
(16:12):
very willfully and knowinglydecided to appoint, you know, the
first American Pope in thesetimes to aid in that unifying presence
that the Pope can have. Butalso, if there's one thing that America
loves, it's rooting for thehome team. The Pope's American. All
right, now we can get somework done. That's our boy. I think
(16:35):
no matter what, if the Popewas just any American, he would have
been just as popular with us,because in our country, you know,
we can say whatever we wantabout our country, but, you know,
another country trying to talkbad about us or our Pope, that's
not gonna happen. So I thinkthat does contribute to his fame,
(16:57):
popularity so far.
Yeah.
There's been a lot of themesabout Pope Leo being from Chicago,
like Chiroc. That would havebeen a lot of fun to look at, but
it's definitely helping in theyounger audience who's not as tuned
into the, you know, Catholic world.
Yeah, I just like all thejokes about the. The official holy
(17:18):
pizza and how it's now a sinto put ketchup on a hot dog, all
that stuff. I love that. And Ilike ketchup on my hot dog. I just
still think it's funny. But I.One of the things, too, though, I
think, like, worldwide. Ithink part of it, too, is, like,
everything now seems to beabout Donald Trump and the politics
(17:41):
of our country. So I think fora lot of people, it's literally just
here is something that seemsuntouched by, that we all just desperately
want something that seems likeit doesn't have anything to do with
this at all. You know, like,it's not for where it gets. It's
just its own thing, and wecould just be happy about it and
not attach it to this, youknow? Yeah.
(18:03):
Yeah. So, Chris, what do weneed to know about the new Pope's
history?
What we need to know is that,you know, he's extremely well educated,
that he has a fantastic graspon canon law. He is actually sort
of a newcomer to the game ofwhat I like to call, like, Catholic
(18:25):
politics. Like, he has nothad, like, decades as a kingmaker.
That's really not what he'sbeen doing. But when he stepped into
that role, he stepped into itwith alacrity and has done a very
good job, from what my sourcessay, in a very short period of time.
So he learned the game veryquickly, but it seems like he's learned
(18:47):
the game without beingcompromised by it. It's not like
that. Once he got to Rome andgot put into this position of authority,
that he suddenly lost his, youknow, he lost his. His nature. I
think that he has brought hispersonality into everything that
he has done. I'd also say thatit's really important to note that
(19:11):
the Pope. There's been someconcerns raised about the fact that
he went to Chicago TheologicalUnion, which has a rep, being extremely
progressive and sometimes offkilter. However, I think that it's
important to note, like, evenin my own small example, I went to
(19:32):
Berkeley, and I don't describemyself necessarily as a progressive.
So I would say that just whereyou go to school doesn't necessarily
indicate anything. One of thereasons I went to Berkeley is because
I wanted to challenge myselfand I actually wanted to question,
are my ideas incorrect? Iwanted to be exposed to the other.
(19:55):
So who knows, maybe he didthat as well. And the fact is, is
that if you open yourself upfrom both an academic standpoint
and spiritually from the HolySpirit, through that culture of encounter
and through that culture oftalking in truth and charity with
other people, you will havethis sort of dynamic thing going
on where it's like you will bechanged, but you will not. It's like
(20:18):
you will still believe thingsyou believed before. There are other
things that you will modifyand then some things that you will
radically change your mind on.But I don't think it's like a complete
180. If you go to a differentschool or in a different environment,
it's much more multifaceted.And I would think that that's probably
the experience he had as well.
(20:40):
Right.
I mean, that's part of why Iwent to North Korea.
Exactly.
I disagree with almosteverything they're teaching me.
Yeah, they weren't allowed todance in that school until 2018.
Super funny. But we've heard alot about his schooling. You know,
his first degree was fromVillanova. It was a bachelor's in
mathematics in the 70s. So,you know, that just goes to show
(21:02):
you college kids, if you'relistening and you're afraid you're
not going to use your degree,you might not. You might be the Pope
instead. But that was preseminary. So what? Aside from that,
because you've already coveredhis seminary career, what significance
arises from him being a partof the Augustinian order? And we
(21:22):
don't really know about theAugustinian order, and we're not
here to do a whole episode onit, so we don't need, like, the full
rundown, but.
Right. I would say that ofcourse you're going to see a massive.
And we've already seen it,we're going to see more of it, a
massive patristic influence.So St. Augustine, one of the great
early church fathers he knewJerome was very, you know, ensconced
(21:47):
in the world of lateantiquity. So one of the things you're
going to definitely see isLeo's sermons and ideas are going
to be very. Are going to bevery involved with Augustinian thought.
So the theology of Augustine,but also the greater encompassing
theology and world of lateantiquity, which is really where
(22:11):
Christianity sort of begins toarticulate itself in ways that, you
know, in particularly throughthe use of Greco Roman philosophy,
that it begins to reallyarticulate itself as not just a religion,
but also sort of like what wecall paideia, this entire system
(22:33):
of being that your religion,your faith is supposed to influence
the way you deal with yourfamily, the way that you go to school,
the way you deal withpolitics. And that's something that
I think we've lost. So I'dlove to see if he brings that back.
I have a couple of friends inthe Augustinian order in Germany.
They speak very highly of him.They are not necessarily known for
(22:54):
being a order that causes alot of problems and they don't like,
they don't attract a lot ofattention to themselves, either positive
or negative.
That's a good thing. Yeah,that's good. That's a good thing.
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, wewere talking some before we got on
here and as you pointed out,we're pretty early on into this thing,
(23:18):
so we don't know a ton aboutwhat he's going to be like as pope,
you know, Pope Leo xiv, I dowant to go ahead and plug. We are
in works with priests at anindependent Catholic church. So that's
a Catholic church that's notunder the authority of Rome, that's
not in full communion with theRoman Catholic Church, but is in
like partial communion sortof. So that priest is going to come
(23:40):
on at the 100 days, 100 daysof Pope Leo XIV and we're going to
try and kind of look at itkind of as outsiders who hopefully
maybe he'll have a little bitbetter perspective than we do, but
still kind of looking at asoutsiders what we think of it then.
But for now, early on, arethere any of the appointments he's
made so far that might give usa glimpse into what the papacy might
(24:02):
be like? If we had a kind ofguess, you know.
So certainly therehabilitation of Cardinal Serra
is extremely Important. He hasbeen already put into a role as a
special papal envoy.Archbishop Paglia, who was extremely
controversial as the head of.It's like the Academy of Human Life
(24:23):
or something like that. I'dhave to look up the proper name of
it, but it's very important.It's a think tank. And his appointment
was extremely controversial.He's been sent packing. We've also
seen that some figures,they've not yet gotten their formal
appointments because everyoneis in until they're out. You carry.
It's like you carry on withthe prior Pope's appointments until
(24:46):
you go ahead and change them.And he asked everyone to stay in
place until further notice.What you really are going to want
to see as an indication ofthis future papacy is do they get
rid of Tucho Fernandez,Cardinal Fernandez? That's going
to be huge because he was one.He's extremely controversial and
(25:07):
one of Francis's. He was aclose collaborator of Francis. The
other thing. Is Cardinal Rochegoing to be sacked? Cardinal Roche
was one of the leading. Wasone of the leading voices to limit
the Latin Mass. He's notnecessarily known for his charity,
(25:30):
even by people who may notlike the Latin Mass. A lot of people
were like, yeah, okay, thepolicy is okay, but the way you instituted
it is not particularly. Notparticularly wise, the tone and the
way that you went about it. Sohe is definitely. And he's a lightning
rod of dissatisfaction for thetraditionalists. So they are going
(25:52):
to want to see him sacked interms of other appointments. Too
early to tell. It's too earlyto tell. Interestingly enough, I
think Cardinal Taggle is goingto be around a bit more. You know,
traditionalists do not tend tolike him, but he is not necessarily
a figure of loathing. He issort of more seen as someone who
(26:17):
is questionable, but not likea figure, not like a lightning rod
of dissatisfaction. I thinkthat we'll be seeing more of him,
but I think he is also smartenough to know how to play the game.
And I think that he will tonehimself down. I think that he will
(26:37):
tone himself down. I don't. Sowe'll just have to see. But it's
very early. It's very early,and there's going to be a lot of
ink spilt over what couldhappen, but a lot remains to be seen.
But as of this moment, it'svery heartening.
Yeah, I. I don't have this onthe outline, but real quick, because
I do know a lot of people areeither happy or concerned about this.
(27:01):
Some of his teachings beforehe Became the Pope was very. Not
in favor of women preachingkind of deal or they. They he think
he's less pro LGBTQ kind ofmovement which the. The previous
Pope necessarily supporteither. I guess he just said stuff
that made some people happy.Do we think the Catholic Church is
(27:25):
going to suddenly just startreally hating on these groups? I
feel like, I know that's anexaggeration, but what kind of shift
should we expect to see in theattitude towards those specific two
issues?
I don't think you're going tosee any change in the kindness and
the courtesy the outreach doneto those groups at all. I think that
the door is always going toremain open for dialogue. The door
(27:47):
is always going to remain openfor, you know, collaboration and
contact and for continuing thediscussion. But for goodness sakes,
you know, I think that thedoor is pretty much, I would say
for the rest of my lifetimepermanently closed on female deacons,
female ordination. If itdidn't happen under Francis, you
(28:07):
think it's going to happenunder Leo. He's made it very clear
that that is a non starter. Itwill be interesting to see see what
he does with the same sexblessings because as you may recall,
Francis put that in and had tobacktrack it because the bishops
(28:27):
and cardinals conferences ofAfrica patently refused it, which
is pretty unheard of in theCatholic Church to be like that.
Like, no, we're not going todo that. So he had to backtrack that
to save face. That is going tobe extremely controversial to see
how he handles that quagmire.
Yeah.
How he handles that knot. It'sgoing to be very interesting because
(28:53):
that raised a lot ofambiguity. And one thing that Catholics
do not particularly like isyou cannot have a church in Germany
that does one thing and achurch in Nigeria that does something
diametrically opposite.They're always cultural adaptations.
There are always sort ofidiosyncrasies of each national Catholic
(29:14):
Church. But the faith isuniversal, the church is the whole
church. And we can. WhatCatholics are particularly frightened
of is going the way of theAnglican Communion where you have
this high church, a lowchurch, a broad church, and that
the Archbishop of Canterburyis nothing more than a nominal figurehead
that no one pays any attentionto. Like that is. Like that would
(29:36):
be a nightmare for Catholics.
Yeah, yeah. The priest that weplan on having on who again, this
is not part of the RomanCatholic Church. This is independent
Catholic church. Veryimportant to make that distinction.
Father Castello Casteau inNorth Carolina, he considers himself
a gay priest. I don't Thinkhe's able to be married from his
(29:59):
own tradition, but I'm unsureon some of that. I just wanted to
make sure we, we did say that.So whenever we have that 100 days
look back, so you guys kind ofknow what perspective we're going
to be looking at. ProfessorMoreland, if you want to join us
for that, obviously you'rewelcome as well, because having the
roman Catholic view 100 daysin would be cool too. But I know
you're busy.
Right.
And I don't like invitingpeople multiple times when I know
they're busy.
No, if I'm around, I'd be morethan happy.
(30:21):
Yeah, I'll make sure. I'llsend you that link and stuff too,
then. Yeah.
So what. How might theappointments of a new Pope matter
for those outside of theCatholic faith? It's a much broader
question, but how is thisgoing to affect us?
So in terms of, in terms oflike day to day, it's not really
(30:44):
going to have much of animpact on, on people. It is going
to be more about what we'retalking about happens in like five
years. Like the appointmentsbuild up the narrative. Like they're
little tiny pieces that startto create a narrative whole. And
so Catholics, really, a lot ofus like really enjoy watching sort
(31:08):
of, you know, being aVaticanologist, we like sort of seeing
the chess pieces move, we likeseeing who's in, who's out, because
we know it means somethingextremely important. But on a day
to day basis, is it reallygoing to affect your, as of now,
the average life of a Catholicin the pew, or an Episcopalian or
(31:28):
a Lutheran? Not yet. Not yet.But if you want to know how it's
going to affect you in acouple of years, these are some leading
indicators.
So is there anything that youthink we might have missed that you
think people want to knowabout the Pope or how the Catholic
(31:48):
Church is going to be movingforward with a papal transition?
For someone who's like, thisis their first one where they're
really paying attention.
For my. I would say that theabsolute worst methodology someone
could use to try to understandLeo and to try to understand the
papacy specifically, or theRoman Catholic Church in general,
(32:10):
is to subject it to Americanpolitical dichotomies. If you view
all of this through the lensof Fox News or msnbc, if you view
it from like the agenda of theRNC or the dnc, whether you consider
yourself to be woke or whetheryou consider yourself to be maga,
(32:32):
if that is your lens, you'realready looking at the world in an
incredibly myopic way. Andit's just going to deform and remove
from reality what's actuallyhappening with the current pope.
We've already seen that withthings that, like Laura Loomer has
said. He's like, oh, my. She'slike, oh, my God. God. He's a woke
Marxist pope. I'm like,really? And, you know, on the super
(32:57):
far left, you know, they'regoing after him, you know, because
he. He has some reservationsabout gender that they're not going
to find. But overall, so far,he's been all. He's been a lot less
divisive and a lot lesscontroversial. And I think that in
a time where. Where people areso divided that unless he rocks something
(33:22):
way too far in one directionor another, I think people are looking
for a unifying figure, whetherthey're Catholic or not. They're
looking, again, for someonebeyond this world we live in, where
it's all about Trump 24 7.They're looking for something to
distract them and maybe for asign of hope.
All right. Yeah.
(33:43):
Cool, Cool, cool, cool. Sowith that, you know, near the end
of our show, we always like toask for a practical action, just
something tangible ourlisteners could go do right now that
would help better engenderChristian unity. Before you go, I'm
going to cheat. I'm going tooffer up an idea myself, tying it
back into this idea that thepapacy can be a figure of unity.
(34:05):
We mentioned that earlier,which is funny, because I think fully
affirmed the AugsburyConfession. And I know that that
was part of the Catholic pushagainst it. But what I do like about
this, even though I don't putmyself under the authority of Rome
or anything like that. Forexample, I read a book that was the
Four Views on Inerrancy. Andone of the most interesting parts
of this book was there was anauthor that wasn't from America who
(34:26):
was just like, we don't eventalk about this. What do you even
mean? It was like this wholepart was just like, what are you
guys even talking about overthere? And one of the things. Things
about Pope. And this is wheremy recommendation is, you read something
written by one of the popes,because their whole job is to be
able to speak to anyone acrossthe world, which means the stuff
that we think is so importantin America that other Christians,
(34:48):
maybe they never even heardanybody talk about it before, when
he talks, it's somethingthat's relevant to all Christians,
I think. And that's where,even if I don't Put myself under
the authority. I think it isgood to read what the Popes are writing
because it's beneficial. But,Chris, what about you? Do you have
anything that you're like,this would be a really good thing
for people to do practicallyto help better engender unity in
(35:08):
the Church.
So I think that at this point,at least in terms of Catholics, something
that we need to think about isthat we've been through a couple
of papacies. Most of people myage have been through a couple of
papacies. We know what it'slike to be in favor. We know what
it's like to not be in favor.And so now that things are changing,
(35:28):
we have to make sure thatpeople that were really attracted
to Francis and that peoplethat were inspired by him still don't
feel slighted, because we knowwhat it's like to feel slighted,
and it's very spirituallydamaging. So we want to make sure
that we don't have this thingwhere it's like, I'm in, you're out.
I'm in, you're out. It's likewe have to find a way to. We have
(35:51):
to find a way to both be atthe table. And perhaps that shared
experience of suffering andempathy will get us to overcome some
of our resentments and some ofour, you know, there's this natural
human desire for revenge.We've got to get rid of it. We've
got to get rid of it and begood Christians.
Yeah.
(36:11):
All right. And what changes inthe world around us if we do that?
I think you would see a lotless. I think you would see Catholics
not segregating themselvesfrom each other, having open, honest
conversations and being ableto agree, to disagree, to find. To
go back to what is the core.To go back to what is the core and
(36:33):
maybe put some of these otherissues on the back burner.
All right, we would love tosee that. And so everybody listen
to Professor ChristopherMorley. Heartland, please. You know,
before we wrap up, you've beenhere before. We like to ask everyone
to share a moment they saw Godin recently, whether it be a blessing,
mode of worship, a curse, whathave you. We call this our God moment.
(36:56):
And I always make Josh gofirst. So, Joshua, do you have a
God moment for us today?
Yeah, Yeah, a few. I finishedup my first semester. What is it?
Cheater. Oh, I'm not going togive a few. I just have it.
Oh, cool.
They only could hear one ofthem unless they go to our Patreon.
No, I'm just kidding. I'm notgoing to do it over there either.
I'm lazy. But no, I got to goto the beach this last weekend. I
(37:21):
just finished up my firstsemester of school. Desperate need
for relaxation. Sunday beforeI come back, my. My boss at work
text me, like, hey, did insertthis small list of people call out
to you during this weekend? Iwas like, nope. All right. So they
just didn't show up. And thenI thought about it and was like,
huh? That means they were justshort and struggling and could have
(37:44):
asked me if they called outearlier, but waited till they were
pretty sure my vacation wasover just to not bother me with a
text. And I'm like, man,someone cares about me that much.
I don't know if I care aboutthem that much because, like, that's
rough. Multiple people justnot showing up. That's rough.
Yeah. I woke up to one ofthose texts this morning.
Great, great times.
Hey, did so and so and so andso text out today.
(38:06):
I was like, not to me. Also,just don't text out. Like, call.
Just call people. Sleepthrough your text.
Like, that's not fair anyway,you know? But for me, my God moment.
I'm not sure when this episodecomes out, but probably pretty close
to Father's Day, because it'salready pretty close to Father's
Day. But that's related. Irecently been having some issues
(38:31):
with my car, and I think I'm abetter driver than I am a mechanic
and definitely lazier than Iam scared of driving. So I was having
braking issues for a couple ofmonths, and I just didn't really
worry about it. But I, youknow, I was talking to my dad about
it. He's like, yeah, justbring the car over here. We'll fix
(38:53):
it, and we'll replace yourrotors. So I got to spend that afternoon
with my dad, which justhappens less and less these days
as we both kind of get busier.And it's just nice to slow things
down. And, like, it's the olddays. Go get your hands dirty. Working
with my dad, I loved that, andthat was super fulfilling for me.
(39:14):
And also now my car breaksreally well.
Yeah, that does sound nice.
It is.
All of that, Even the carbreaking. Yeah.
Yeah.
For me, I would say that a Godmoment that I've had recently is
that one of my favorite peoplein the world, Dr. Denise Hanson,
she's a psychologist. She hasin the past 30 years, she has revolutionized
(39:39):
mental health in Wilmington,North Carolina. She's saved people
from suicide. She hasdiagnosed people. So she's been a
healer and a mentor and aguide. And, like, what she does is,
like, multiplied times andtimes again. She had a tragic accident
where she broke her neck, andwe were really worried. Everyone
(40:02):
was really worried about her.That happened about three months
ago and she is now back toseeing patients and her recovery
is on trend and her mind issharp as ever. So she is going to
continue. And she is abeliever, by the way. She's a. She's
very staunch Christian. She isgoing to be able, with the grace
of God, to. To continue herwork of healing and her work of mental
(40:27):
health treatment, which, as weall know, is so desperately needed
in this time. So I talked toher recently and I pretty much was
like, hey, God is not donewith you yet. You're not getting
off the hook anytime soon.
Yeah, that's incredible. Andespecially in the Carolinas, mental
health professionals are fewand far between.
Yeah, there is. It's not likebeing in big city.
(40:50):
But if you like this episode,please consider sharing with a friend.
Share with your enemy, yourcousins, especially your cousins.
Especially your cousins. Ithink it's better to share with your
enemies. But rate, review theshow on podchaser, Apple Podcast,
Spotify, give us thumbs up,thumbs down, comment on the episode,
interact, you know.
Yeah, just share it with anenemy. When you share it with the
enemy, just like, hey, here'sa podcast where some people said
(41:12):
it was gonna be a shortepisode and then they still went
on on for a normal episode.Oh, man. Hey, guys, while you're
at it, if you want to see medo that more times, I'm on other
shows on podcast network, likeSome Joyful Noises, Systematic Ecology,
Be Living Water. And comingsoon, we have a maybe a limited time
podcast, maybe a seasonalpodcast, Undecided, if it is a seasonal
(41:35):
season one will be calledTurning the Page on Divine. Give
me a second Genocide. Allright, Turn it Based on Divine Genocide.
Yeah. I was like, what was itagain? And if it's not seasonal,
that's just going to be thename of the show.
All right, well, we hope youenjoyed it. Next week, we're going
to be talking with BrendanRobinson to discuss his work as a
progressive Christian author,pastor and Bible scholar. After that,
(41:58):
we will have on Dr. Bruce E.To discuss charismatic movements
and the need for churches thatboth believe in the power of the
spirit and the accepting loveof God. Then we're going to have
on Brian Wrecker to discusshis Instagram reels on church dogma
and his new book, Hell Bent.And finally, at the end of season
one, Francis Chan will be onthe show.
Probably. Probably if someonetells him about it. Because, you
(42:19):
know, he. He doesn't knowstill. Yeah, but some. Someone will
tell him. Probably.
Yeah. Not me, I imagine.
Yeah, not us.
First Peter 3, 8, 9 in theChristian Standard Bible say, finally,
all of you, be like minded andsympathetic, love one another and
be compassionate and humble.Not paying back evil for evil or
insult for insult, but on thecontrary, giving a blessing, since
you were called for this, sothat you may inherit a blessing.
(00:46):
And. And in this section ofscripture, the author is giving instructions
to the church on how to behavein community with one another. Chris
Moreland, how do you believethe church might be better able to
practice this in our world today?
Certainly think that in a timewhere we are so divided by politics
and partisanship that we haveto go back to what is at the core
(01:11):
of our faith. And, and thecore of our faith is Jesus Christ
himself. That is the startingpoint. That is the ending point.
Yeah, good stuff. Hey, guys,welcome back to the Whole Church
Podcast, possibly yourfavorite church unity podcast. And
(01:33):
again, you're like, wait aminute, we just had a bonus. You
just did a regular episode.What is this? It's another bonus.
Yeah, it's. Yeah, we're fullof bonuses this May because the other
podcast we help withsystematic Ecology is slow in May.
So we said, wait, instead ofrelaxing, what if we just did more
work somewhere else? So nowwe're here doing more work, talking
about the Pope because be ashame if the Whole Church podcast
(01:53):
was like, yeah, but we're notgoing to talk about that. We'd be
dropping the ball. So since wewe have a new pope. Pope Francis
has passed. We want to reflecton Pope Francis's legacy. Look ahead
to Pope Leo xiv. And whobetter do it than our friend return
guest that you all know verywell. Professor Christopher Moreland,
welcome back, man. It's greatto have you.
It's been too long.
Yeah, yeah, it has. AndProfessor Moreland, you're still
(02:16):
teaching women in religion atuntw, right? Yes, University of North
Carolina Wilmington, for thosewho don't know.
Fantastic semester. Everyonegot an A in that class this semester
and only one person got an Aminus. It was the group that we had
this semester was phenomenal.
And that's how, you know, I'mnot in school anymore. I'm also here
with the reason for religionfor some people. Some people were
(02:41):
like, this world seems toogreat with TJ in it. There must be
something more than this if TJcan exist. And that's how people
discovered God, you know, TJon podcast. I don't think that's
sacrilege. It might be, butit's not, if I say so.
Might be getting close.
Yeah, it's okay. Pope Leo the14th, he's too busy to. To let us
(03:02):
know that I'm a heretic.
Yeah, I hope.
Probably.
Man, talk about a bad review.
Yeah. Pope within his firsthundred days. I just want to let
you all know specifically,Josh Knoll has bad opinions.
Yeah, that would be great forus. Anathema. But Blow podcast, though.
(03:24):
Yeah. If you like what we'redoing here, check out the Onzone
Ministries podcast networkwebsite, the links below, and if
you're listening on ourYouTube channel, hit like and subscribe
before the Pope exiles us.
Yeah, that's right.
That extra support.
Yeah. Yeah. I like how westarted this gimmick of, like, the
(03:44):
end of season one, FrancisChan's gonna be on, and then we were
like, oh, also season two isgonna have whoever the Pope is, and
now the gimmick has shifted toactually, the Pope's just gonna exile
us before season one ends.
Yeah.
Plot twist. Yeah. Oh, man. Butyou guys know church podcast. You
have to have the holysacrament for unity, which is silliness.
You know, it's possible toimpossible to be divided when you're
(04:07):
being as silly as I like tobe. Even for bonuses, we gotta do
it. And this one is topicrelative, and it's actually one that
I think a lot of people areasking right now on the Internet.
What's the most American thingwe can imagine the new Pope having
done or will have done,however you want to word it. You
(04:29):
know, it's hard for mebecause, like, I don't know how you
rank, like, how Americansomething is like, obviously eating
a hot dog, I feel like isAmerican. You know, I feel like I
can imagine this Pope havinggone to Disney World with friends
and eating one of those giantMickey Mouse things on a stick. I
can see that being somethingthat might have happened, and I feel
(04:50):
like that's pretty American,so I'm gonna stick with that deep
fried thing on a stick inDisney World. I think it's possible.
TJ Before Dr. Moylan, who Isay Professor Moylan before he gives
probably a real answer. Heprobably knows enough that he's gonna
school us on our sillyquestion. But, tj, what. What's.
(05:11):
Where you going?
Hot dog on Wrigley Field inChicago. That doesn't even seem like
a possibility for me. Thatseems like an almost guarantee.
Yeah, that seems almostcertain, but that's.
That's as American as it gets.
All right. All right,Professor Moreland, how about you,
man? What's the most Americanthing you can imagine this Pope having
done?
I imagine that this isprobably the first pope that has
(05:33):
ever had a shot of Malort before.
Oh, that's probably true.
Yeah. An experience.
That's a. Yeah. And anAmerican experience indeed. Yeah.
Yeah. I wonder if this popehas a favorite bourbon. That's something
I would like to know. But assomeone whose family came from Kentucky,
(05:53):
I'd be interested.
But this is a special episodein honor of the new Roman Catholic
Pope. And before we discussthe change, what should we gleam
from and reflect on from PopeFrancis time in the papacy? For me,
I know, like, I don't think weever had a pope as humble as Pope
Francis. His processionalpopemobile, I think they switched
(06:18):
it for his funeralproceedings, but was like a bone
stock minimum options, Mexicanbuilt Dodge Ram. That was pretty
great. For me, that's asymbol. But what do you think, Professor
Christopher Moreland?
(06:38):
Well, I think that somethingwe have to be on guard against is
performative humility. I thinkwe have, I think that it's very deadly.
I think that pride comes inmany forms. And the sort of pride
that we recognize instantly isa form of pride. But pride also can
be by attracting too muchattention to oneself, by sort of
(07:01):
over emphasizing humility andbeing like, look at me, look at me,
look how humble I am. So Ithink that it's something that to
some people, some peopleobviously found it very inspirational.
Others, I think, had adifferent approach to some of these
what you would sort of callostentatious displays of humility.
(07:24):
Yeah, I, I see where you'recoming from. It always came off as
genuine to me, but maybe it'sbecause I don't speak his language.
But also, yeah, like wementioned earlier, I read most of
his books. I know he made alot of off the cuff remarks outside
of that. So I mostlyencountered him through like this
polished. Someone editorprobably saw it beforehand and then
someone translated it andthen, you know, was like, oh, this
(07:46):
is nice. Actually, one of myfavorite books on the Sermon on the
Mount is from while he wasPope. And I have it on my bookshelf
over there proudly. I love it.For me, the thing that really stood
out to me is I don't know ifI've, in my lifetime I've seen a
world leader who seemed likehe cared for other people so much.
(08:07):
But at the same time, I doknow, like you mentioned some of
the off the cuff remarks. Alot of Christian leaders where, you
know, we were seeing a timewhere Baptists were kind of like,
hey, we agree with some ofthis traditional views of Catholicism.
We agree with some of thisstuff and we see a little bit Brutus
building and then he wouldstart seeing some of the stuff. And
it felt to me, and this isjust my perspective, a lot of the
(08:28):
Catholics were like, well, Idon't like this guy who were more
conservative. And then more ofthe progressives were trying to really
cheer him on. And then otherchurches, if they were more progressive,
suddenly were like, oh, welike Catholics now, than some of
the ones that weretraditional. It felt like a lot of
divisions were made off ofsome of these off the cuff remarks
of like and stuff that Iprobably agreed with. But it was
kind of one of those, whenyou're a world leader, you can't
just say something like that.If you're going to make a statement,
(08:50):
make a statement, have it wellthought out, something like that.
Not just kind of a, hey, youknow, we care about this too. And
it's like, hold up, what doyou mean by that? So that's kind
of my sentence I wanted toread for me. So this is a song that
speaks a lot to me. And we'regoing to. Me and Pastor Will Rose
are going to do a review ofthe song later on. But part of the
song really made me think ofPope Francis. So if you want to know,
(09:12):
just kind of my take and whatthis is just. I don't know why the
message of the song makes methink of what I think his biggest
message probably was. So I'mjust going to read part of this.
It's Citizens by John Guerra.You're building a city where we arrive
as immigrants. You call uscitizens and you welcome us as children
home we arrive as immigrants.Is there a way to love always Living
(09:36):
in enemy hallways? Don't myfoes, don't know my foes from my
friends and don't know myfriends anymore. Power has several
prizes Handcuffs come in allsizes Love has a million disguises
but winning is simply not one.I like the message of the song and
to me, that's one of the stuffthat I like. I feel like that's probably
(09:56):
a lot of what he was allabout. There's plenty of other stuff
to criticize or to, you know,we like or don't like. We could probably
debate, but I feel like thatfeels like a lot of, like, his heart,
which probably comes from thefact that he was from the Francis
Franciscus.
Yeah, he wasn't from thefirst, but, you know, he was very
inspired by the life of St.Francis. And I think it has a lot
(10:17):
to do with the fact that hecame from a country that, you know,
it's not like, it's notArgentina's, not Third World, but
it has problems withdevelopment and that there is both
great wealth and great povertyin Argentina.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so we all heard it pastcouple of years, oh, the woke pope.
(10:39):
The Pope's too woke. I justthink that's a super funny sentence.
The woke pope. Yeah, I know,but now people are talking about,
right. Leo, 14, is sociallyliberal and doctrinally conservative.
And how true do you think thatassessment is? And what do you think
about it?
Well, it's so hard. I mean, weuse these. One of my past mentors
(11:02):
and advisors, Father Dr.Kenichi, once said that these are
what we call heroisticcategories of convenience, words
like conservative, liberal,progressive, traditionalist, and
that these terms by themselvescan be very limiting. I think that
in the post Trump era,conservatism means something entirely
(11:23):
different than it did during,like, the Bush McCain era. So we
have to. First off, when I saythis, I want to acknowledge those
limitations very clearly. Iwould say that the new pope, I think,
will continue Francis's legacytowards the marginalized and those
(11:43):
that society does not havetime for, the migrants, the poor,
people from the Third World,people who have been ostracized.
However, I think that Leo isgoing to be much more doctrinally
concise, succinct. I thinkthat he is going to focus a lot more
(12:03):
on the precision of his words.I think that he understands that
every single thing that hesays and does is going to be scrutinized,
and that because of 24,7 mediaand social media, you really have
to be very careful about whatyou say to make sure that you don't
scandalize the faithful. Ithink that we will definitely see
(12:26):
more of a reinforcement oftraditional Catholic teaching. You
know, but these are things,you know, we call it traditional,
but these are really thingsthat the overwhelming majority of
Catholics agree on. You know,we're talking about the unique salvific
nature of Jesus Christ, forexample, the nature of the Holy Trinity,
(12:47):
you know, the core stuff, someof which was inadvertently brought
into question during the reignof the.
Yeah, yeah. So one of theinteresting things for me, so I was
going back, getting mymasters, having to write some systematic
theology papers, you know, allthat kind of stuff. And now I'm in
(13:10):
the Lutheran Church, theAugsburg Confession, something I've
been really interested in,part of the Roman Catholic response
to the Augsburg Confession,which was like Lutheran's basically
trying to say, here's what webelieve, and trying to find some
kind of common ground with theCatholic tradition. One of their
responses against it sort ofhad to do with the necessity of the
(13:33):
papacy. Having a pope as asymbol of unity within the church,
as a central figure, that wasreally stressed as one of the big
disagreement points. I don'tknow. I'm struggling there. But how
do you think the papacy mightadd to unity amongst Catholic believers?
And is there a significance,keeping that in mind, that the new
(13:53):
Pope isn't American? Does thathelp or hurt the unity right now?
In our times, when peopledon't like.
America too much, it's reallygoing to help with unity. The other
thing is that the previouspontiffs had a very clear dislike
of the United States and avery clear dislike of what I would
call sort of the Greater West.So that would be like Great Britain,
France, Germany. That's notreally that part of the world did
(14:18):
not seem to particularlyinspire him. I think that there are
some legitim. I think there'ssome very legitimate critiques he
had. Some of it, however, wasleft over from his Peronist Argentinian
background. Very 1970s thirdworld internationalism. That is really
not. It's not completely, howwould I say, appropriate in 2025.
(14:44):
It doesn't deal with realitytension. There's been a lot of tension
between the Americans and theprevious pontiff. I think this is
going to be an incrediblyunifying factor. I think that if
he continues in his presentvein, I mean, he's only been Pope
for like, what, less than twoweeks? If he continues in the current
(15:07):
vein that he is going rightnow, he is going to be able to unify
by both people who feel alittle more progressive and people
who lean a little moretraditionalist. I think that he will
maintain Francis outreach tothe Third World while strengthening
relationships with the westand the United States. It's very
(15:30):
clear that he is extremelywell loved in the United States already.
And it's been reallyheartening to see that everyone seems
to like him, whether you'reCatholic, whether you're Protestant,
whether you're Jewish, even myfriends that are atheists and agnostics,
like, hey, you got a coolPope. We love your new Pope. You
know, he's awesome. Like, andthey're excited also about, like,
(15:51):
there's, like, won't it be socool when he comes back to Chicago?
So these are people that don'tbelieve in God. These are people
that think religion is sillyand superstitious, but they vary.
There's something about himthat they find captivating and, like,
they Are, like, excited about.
Yeah, I think what it is fortwo things. The Conclave, I think,
(16:12):
very willfully and knowinglydecided to appoint, you know, the
first American Pope in thesetimes to aid in that unifying presence
that the Pope can have. Butalso, if there's one thing that America
loves, it's rooting for thehome team. The Pope's American. All
right, now we can get somework done. That's our boy. I think
(16:35):
no matter what, if the Popewas just any American, he would have
been just as popular with us,because in our country, you know,
we can say whatever we wantabout our country, but, you know,
another country trying to talkbad about us or our Pope, that's
not gonna happen. So I thinkthat does contribute to his fame,
(16:57):
popularity so far.
Yeah.
There's been a lot of themesabout Pope Leo being from Chicago,
like Chiroc. That would havebeen a lot of fun to look at, but
it's definitely helping in theyounger audience who's not as tuned
into the, you know, Catholic world.
Yeah, I just like all thejokes about the. The official holy
(17:18):
pizza and how it's now a sinto put ketchup on a hot dog, all
that stuff. I love that. And Ilike ketchup on my hot dog. I just
still think it's funny. But I.One of the things, too, though, I
think, like, worldwide. Ithink part of it, too, is, like,
everything now seems to beabout Donald Trump and the politics
(17:41):
of our country. So I think fora lot of people, it's literally just
here is something that seemsuntouched by, that we all just desperately
want something that seems likeit doesn't have anything to do with
this at all. You know, like,it's not for where it gets. It's
just its own thing, and wecould just be happy about it and
not attach it to this, youknow? Yeah.
(18:03):
Yeah. So, Chris, what do weneed to know about the new Pope's
history?
What we need to know is that,you know, he's extremely well educated,
that he has a fantastic graspon canon law. He is actually sort
of a newcomer to the game ofwhat I like to call, like, Catholic
(18:25):
politics. Like, he has nothad, like, decades as a kingmaker.
That's really not what he'sbeen doing. But when he stepped into
that role, he stepped into itwith alacrity and has done a very
good job, from what my sourcessay, in a very short period of time.
So he learned the game veryquickly, but it seems like he's learned
(18:47):
the game without beingcompromised by it. It's not like
that. Once he got to Rome andgot put into this position of authority,
that he suddenly lost his, youknow, he lost his. His nature. I
think that he has brought hispersonality into everything that
he has done. I'd also say thatit's really important to note that
(19:11):
the Pope. There's been someconcerns raised about the fact that
he went to Chicago TheologicalUnion, which has a rep, being extremely
progressive and sometimes offkilter. However, I think that it's
important to note, like, evenin my own small example, I went to
(19:32):
Berkeley, and I don't describemyself necessarily as a progressive.
So I would say that just whereyou go to school doesn't necessarily
indicate anything. One of thereasons I went to Berkeley is because
I wanted to challenge myselfand I actually wanted to question,
are my ideas incorrect? Iwanted to be exposed to the other.
(19:55):
So who knows, maybe he didthat as well. And the fact is, is
that if you open yourself upfrom both an academic standpoint
and spiritually from the HolySpirit, through that culture of encounter
and through that culture oftalking in truth and charity with
other people, you will havethis sort of dynamic thing going
on where it's like you will bechanged, but you will not. It's like
(20:18):
you will still believe thingsyou believed before. There are other
things that you will modifyand then some things that you will
radically change your mind on.But I don't think it's like a complete
180. If you go to a differentschool or in a different environment,
it's much more multifaceted.And I would think that that's probably
the experience he had as well.
(20:40):
Right.
I mean, that's part of why Iwent to North Korea.
Exactly.
I disagree with almosteverything they're teaching me.
Yeah, they weren't allowed todance in that school until 2018.
Super funny. But we've heard alot about his schooling. You know,
his first degree was fromVillanova. It was a bachelor's in
mathematics in the 70s. So,you know, that just goes to show
(21:02):
you college kids, if you'relistening and you're afraid you're
not going to use your degree,you might not. You might be the Pope
instead. But that was preseminary. So what? Aside from that,
because you've already coveredhis seminary career, what significance
arises from him being a partof the Augustinian order? And we
(21:22):
don't really know about theAugustinian order, and we're not
here to do a whole episode onit, so we don't need, like, the full
rundown, but.
Right. I would say that ofcourse you're going to see a massive.
And we've already seen it,we're going to see more of it, a
massive patristic influence.So St. Augustine, one of the great
early church fathers he knewJerome was very, you know, ensconced
(21:47):
in the world of lateantiquity. So one of the things you're
going to definitely see isLeo's sermons and ideas are going
to be very. Are going to bevery involved with Augustinian thought.
So the theology of Augustine,but also the greater encompassing
theology and world of lateantiquity, which is really where
(22:11):
Christianity sort of begins toarticulate itself in ways that, you
know, in particularly throughthe use of Greco Roman philosophy,
that it begins to reallyarticulate itself as not just a religion,
but also sort of like what wecall paideia, this entire system
(22:33):
of being that your religion,your faith is supposed to influence
the way you deal with yourfamily, the way that you go to school,
the way you deal withpolitics. And that's something that
I think we've lost. So I'dlove to see if he brings that back.
I have a couple of friends inthe Augustinian order in Germany.
They speak very highly of him.They are not necessarily known for
(22:54):
being a order that causes alot of problems and they don't like,
they don't attract a lot ofattention to themselves, either positive
or negative.
That's a good thing. Yeah,that's good. That's a good thing.
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, wewere talking some before we got on
here and as you pointed out,we're pretty early on into this thing,
(23:18):
so we don't know a ton aboutwhat he's going to be like as pope,
you know, Pope Leo xiv, I dowant to go ahead and plug. We are
in works with priests at anindependent Catholic church. So that's
a Catholic church that's notunder the authority of Rome, that's
not in full communion with theRoman Catholic Church, but is in
like partial communion sortof. So that priest is going to come
(23:40):
on at the 100 days, 100 daysof Pope Leo XIV and we're going to
try and kind of look at itkind of as outsiders who hopefully
maybe he'll have a little bitbetter perspective than we do, but
still kind of looking at asoutsiders what we think of it then.
But for now, early on, arethere any of the appointments he's
made so far that might give usa glimpse into what the papacy might
(24:02):
be like? If we had a kind ofguess, you know.
So certainly therehabilitation of Cardinal Serra
is extremely Important. He hasbeen already put into a role as a
special papal envoy.Archbishop Paglia, who was extremely
controversial as the head of.It's like the Academy of Human Life
(24:23):
or something like that. I'dhave to look up the proper name of
it, but it's very important.It's a think tank. And his appointment
was extremely controversial.He's been sent packing. We've also
seen that some figures,they've not yet gotten their formal
appointments because everyoneis in until they're out. You carry.
It's like you carry on withthe prior Pope's appointments until
(24:46):
you go ahead and change them.And he asked everyone to stay in
place until further notice.What you really are going to want
to see as an indication ofthis future papacy is do they get
rid of Tucho Fernandez,Cardinal Fernandez? That's going
to be huge because he was one.He's extremely controversial and
(25:07):
one of Francis's. He was aclose collaborator of Francis. The
other thing. Is Cardinal Rochegoing to be sacked? Cardinal Roche
was one of the leading. Wasone of the leading voices to limit
the Latin Mass. He's notnecessarily known for his charity,
(25:30):
even by people who may notlike the Latin Mass. A lot of people
were like, yeah, okay, thepolicy is okay, but the way you instituted
it is not particularly. Notparticularly wise, the tone and the
way that you went about it. Sohe is definitely. And he's a lightning
rod of dissatisfaction for thetraditionalists. So they are going
(25:52):
to want to see him sacked interms of other appointments. Too
early to tell. It's too earlyto tell. Interestingly enough, I
think Cardinal Taggle is goingto be around a bit more. You know,
traditionalists do not tend tolike him, but he is not necessarily
a figure of loathing. He issort of more seen as someone who
(26:17):
is questionable, but not likea figure, not like a lightning rod
of dissatisfaction. I thinkthat we'll be seeing more of him,
but I think he is also smartenough to know how to play the game.
And I think that he will tonehimself down. I think that he will
(26:37):
tone himself down. I don't. Sowe'll just have to see. But it's
very early. It's very early,and there's going to be a lot of
ink spilt over what couldhappen, but a lot remains to be seen.
But as of this moment, it'svery heartening.
Yeah, I. I don't have this onthe outline, but real quick, because
I do know a lot of people areeither happy or concerned about this.
(27:01):
Some of his teachings beforehe Became the Pope was very. Not
in favor of women preachingkind of deal or they. They he think
he's less pro LGBTQ kind ofmovement which the. The previous
Pope necessarily supporteither. I guess he just said stuff
that made some people happy.Do we think the Catholic Church is
(27:25):
going to suddenly just startreally hating on these groups? I
feel like, I know that's anexaggeration, but what kind of shift
should we expect to see in theattitude towards those specific two
issues?
I don't think you're going tosee any change in the kindness and
the courtesy the outreach doneto those groups at all. I think that
the door is always going toremain open for dialogue. The door
(27:47):
is always going to remain openfor, you know, collaboration and
contact and for continuing thediscussion. But for goodness sakes,
you know, I think that thedoor is pretty much, I would say
for the rest of my lifetimepermanently closed on female deacons,
female ordination. If itdidn't happen under Francis, you
(28:07):
think it's going to happenunder Leo. He's made it very clear
that that is a non starter. Itwill be interesting to see see what
he does with the same sexblessings because as you may recall,
Francis put that in and had tobacktrack it because the bishops
(28:27):
and cardinals conferences ofAfrica patently refused it, which
is pretty unheard of in theCatholic Church to be like that.
Like, no, we're not going todo that. So he had to backtrack that
to save face. That is going tobe extremely controversial to see
how he handles that quagmire.
Yeah.
How he handles that knot. It'sgoing to be very interesting because
(28:53):
that raised a lot ofambiguity. And one thing that Catholics
do not particularly like isyou cannot have a church in Germany
that does one thing and achurch in Nigeria that does something
diametrically opposite.They're always cultural adaptations.
There are always sort ofidiosyncrasies of each national Catholic
(29:14):
Church. But the faith isuniversal, the church is the whole
church. And we can. WhatCatholics are particularly frightened
of is going the way of theAnglican Communion where you have
this high church, a lowchurch, a broad church, and that
the Archbishop of Canterburyis nothing more than a nominal figurehead
that no one pays any attentionto. Like that is. Like that would
(29:36):
be a nightmare for Catholics.
Yeah, yeah. The priest that weplan on having on who again, this
is not part of the RomanCatholic Church. This is independent
Catholic church. Veryimportant to make that distinction.
Father Castello Casteau inNorth Carolina, he considers himself
a gay priest. I don't Thinkhe's able to be married from his
(29:59):
own tradition, but I'm unsureon some of that. I just wanted to
make sure we, we did say that.So whenever we have that 100 days
look back, so you guys kind ofknow what perspective we're going
to be looking at. ProfessorMoreland, if you want to join us
for that, obviously you'rewelcome as well, because having the
roman Catholic view 100 daysin would be cool too. But I know
you're busy.
Right.
And I don't like invitingpeople multiple times when I know
they're busy.
No, if I'm around, I'd be morethan happy.
(30:21):
Yeah, I'll make sure. I'llsend you that link and stuff too,
then. Yeah.
So what. How might theappointments of a new Pope matter
for those outside of theCatholic faith? It's a much broader
question, but how is thisgoing to affect us?
So in terms of, in terms oflike day to day, it's not really
(30:44):
going to have much of animpact on, on people. It is going
to be more about what we'retalking about happens in like five
years. Like the appointmentsbuild up the narrative. Like they're
little tiny pieces that startto create a narrative whole. And
so Catholics, really, a lot ofus like really enjoy watching sort
(31:08):
of, you know, being aVaticanologist, we like sort of seeing
the chess pieces move, we likeseeing who's in, who's out, because
we know it means somethingextremely important. But on a day
to day basis, is it reallygoing to affect your, as of now,
the average life of a Catholicin the pew, or an Episcopalian or
(31:28):
a Lutheran? Not yet. Not yet.But if you want to know how it's
going to affect you in acouple of years, these are some leading
indicators.
So is there anything that youthink we might have missed that you
think people want to knowabout the Pope or how the Catholic
(31:48):
Church is going to be movingforward with a papal transition?
For someone who's like, thisis their first one where they're
really paying attention.
For my. I would say that theabsolute worst methodology someone
could use to try to understandLeo and to try to understand the
papacy specifically, or theRoman Catholic Church in general,
(32:10):
is to subject it to Americanpolitical dichotomies. If you view
all of this through the lensof Fox News or msnbc, if you view
it from like the agenda of theRNC or the dnc, whether you consider
yourself to be woke or whetheryou consider yourself to be maga,
(32:32):
if that is your lens, you'realready looking at the world in an
incredibly myopic way. Andit's just going to deform and remove
from reality what's actuallyhappening with the current pope.
We've already seen that withthings that, like Laura Loomer has
said. He's like, oh, my. She'slike, oh, my God. God. He's a woke
Marxist pope. I'm like,really? And, you know, on the super
(32:57):
far left, you know, they'regoing after him, you know, because
he. He has some reservationsabout gender that they're not going
to find. But overall, so far,he's been all. He's been a lot less
divisive and a lot lesscontroversial. And I think that in
a time where. Where people areso divided that unless he rocks something
(33:22):
way too far in one directionor another, I think people are looking
for a unifying figure, whetherthey're Catholic or not. They're
looking, again, for someonebeyond this world we live in, where
it's all about Trump 24 7.They're looking for something to
distract them and maybe for asign of hope.
All right. Yeah.
(33:43):
Cool, Cool, cool, cool. Sowith that, you know, near the end
of our show, we always like toask for a practical action, just
something tangible ourlisteners could go do right now that
would help better engenderChristian unity. Before you go, I'm
going to cheat. I'm going tooffer up an idea myself, tying it
back into this idea that thepapacy can be a figure of unity.
(34:05):
We mentioned that earlier,which is funny, because I think fully
affirmed the AugsburyConfession. And I know that that
was part of the Catholic pushagainst it. But what I do like about
this, even though I don't putmyself under the authority of Rome
or anything like that. Forexample, I read a book that was the
Four Views on Inerrancy. Andone of the most interesting parts
of this book was there was anauthor that wasn't from America who
(34:26):
was just like, we don't eventalk about this. What do you even
mean? It was like this wholepart was just like, what are you
guys even talking about overthere? And one of the things. Things
about Pope. And this is wheremy recommendation is, you read something
written by one of the popes,because their whole job is to be
able to speak to anyone acrossthe world, which means the stuff
that we think is so importantin America that other Christians,
(34:48):
maybe they never even heardanybody talk about it before, when
he talks, it's somethingthat's relevant to all Christians,
I think. And that's where,even if I don't Put myself under
the authority. I think it isgood to read what the Popes are writing
because it's beneficial. But,Chris, what about you? Do you have
anything that you're like,this would be a really good thing
for people to do practicallyto help better engender unity in
(35:08):
the Church.
So I think that at this point,at least in terms of Catholics, something
that we need to think about isthat we've been through a couple
of papacies. Most of people myage have been through a couple of
papacies. We know what it'slike to be in favor. We know what
it's like to not be in favor.And so now that things are changing,
(35:28):
we have to make sure thatpeople that were really attracted
to Francis and that peoplethat were inspired by him still don't
feel slighted, because we knowwhat it's like to feel slighted,
and it's very spirituallydamaging. So we want to make sure
that we don't have this thingwhere it's like, I'm in, you're out.
I'm in, you're out. It's likewe have to find a way to. We have
(35:51):
to find a way to both be atthe table. And perhaps that shared
experience of suffering andempathy will get us to overcome some
of our resentments and some ofour, you know, there's this natural
human desire for revenge.We've got to get rid of it. We've
got to get rid of it and begood Christians.
Yeah.
(36:11):
All right. And what changes inthe world around us if we do that?
I think you would see a lotless. I think you would see Catholics
not segregating themselvesfrom each other, having open, honest
conversations and being ableto agree, to disagree, to find. To
go back to what is the core.To go back to what is the core and
(36:33):
maybe put some of these otherissues on the back burner.
All right, we would love tosee that. And so everybody listen
to Professor ChristopherMorley. Heartland, please. You know,
before we wrap up, you've beenhere before. We like to ask everyone
to share a moment they saw Godin recently, whether it be a blessing,
mode of worship, a curse, whathave you. We call this our God moment.
(36:56):
And I always make Josh gofirst. So, Joshua, do you have a
God moment for us today?
Yeah, Yeah, a few. I finishedup my first semester. What is it?
Cheater. Oh, I'm not going togive a few. I just have it.
Oh, cool.
They only could hear one ofthem unless they go to our Patreon.
No, I'm just kidding. I'm notgoing to do it over there either.
I'm lazy. But no, I got to goto the beach this last weekend. I
(37:21):
just finished up my firstsemester of school. Desperate need
for relaxation. Sunday beforeI come back, my. My boss at work
text me, like, hey, did insertthis small list of people call out
to you during this weekend? Iwas like, nope. All right. So they
just didn't show up. And thenI thought about it and was like,
huh? That means they were justshort and struggling and could have
(37:44):
asked me if they called outearlier, but waited till they were
pretty sure my vacation wasover just to not bother me with a
text. And I'm like, man,someone cares about me that much.
I don't know if I care aboutthem that much because, like, that's
rough. Multiple people justnot showing up. That's rough.
Yeah. I woke up to one ofthose texts this morning.
Great, great times.
Hey, did so and so and so andso text out today.
(38:06):
I was like, not to me. Also,just don't text out. Like, call.
Just call people. Sleepthrough your text.
Like, that's not fair anyway,you know? But for me, my God moment.
I'm not sure when this episodecomes out, but probably pretty close
to Father's Day, because it'salready pretty close to Father's
Day. But that's related. Irecently been having some issues
(38:31):
with my car, and I think I'm abetter driver than I am a mechanic
and definitely lazier than Iam scared of driving. So I was having
braking issues for a couple ofmonths, and I just didn't really
worry about it. But I, youknow, I was talking to my dad about
it. He's like, yeah, justbring the car over here. We'll fix
(38:53):
it, and we'll replace yourrotors. So I got to spend that afternoon
with my dad, which justhappens less and less these days
as we both kind of get busier.And it's just nice to slow things
down. And, like, it's the olddays. Go get your hands dirty. Working
with my dad, I loved that, andthat was super fulfilling for me.
(39:14):
And also now my car breaksreally well.
Yeah, that does sound nice.
It is.
All of that, Even the carbreaking. Yeah.
Yeah.
For me, I would say that a Godmoment that I've had recently is
that one of my favorite peoplein the world, Dr. Denise Hanson,
she's a psychologist. She hasin the past 30 years, she has revolutionized
(39:39):
mental health in Wilmington,North Carolina. She's saved people
from suicide. She hasdiagnosed people. So she's been a
healer and a mentor and aguide. And, like, what she does is,
like, multiplied times andtimes again. She had a tragic accident
where she broke her neck, andwe were really worried. Everyone
(40:02):
was really worried about her.That happened about three months
ago and she is now back toseeing patients and her recovery
is on trend and her mind issharp as ever. So she is going to
continue. And she is abeliever, by the way. She's a. She's
very staunch Christian. She isgoing to be able, with the grace
of God, to. To continue herwork of healing and her work of mental
(40:27):
health treatment, which, as weall know, is so desperately needed
in this time. So I talked toher recently and I pretty much was
like, hey, God is not donewith you yet. You're not getting
off the hook anytime soon.
Yeah, that's incredible. Andespecially in the Carolinas, mental
health professionals are fewand far between.
Yeah, there is. It's not likebeing in big city.
(40:50):
But if you like this episode,please consider sharing with a friend.
Share with your enemy, yourcousins, especially your cousins.
Especially your cousins. Ithink it's better to share with your
enemies. But rate, review theshow on podchaser, Apple Podcast,
Spotify, give us thumbs up,thumbs down, comment on the episode,
interact, you know.
Yeah, just share it with anenemy. When you share it with the
enemy, just like, hey, here'sa podcast where some people said
(41:12):
it was gonna be a shortepisode and then they still went
on on for a normal episode.Oh, man. Hey, guys, while you're
at it, if you want to see medo that more times, I'm on other
shows on podcast network, likeSome Joyful Noises, Systematic Ecology,
Be Living Water. And comingsoon, we have a maybe a limited time
podcast, maybe a seasonalpodcast, Undecided, if it is a seasonal
(41:35):
season one will be calledTurning the Page on Divine. Give
me a second Genocide. Allright, Turn it Based on Divine Genocide.
Yeah. I was like, what was itagain? And if it's not seasonal,
that's just going to be thename of the show.
All right, well, we hope youenjoyed it. Next week, we're going
to be talking with BrendanRobinson to discuss his work as a
progressive Christian author,pastor and Bible scholar. After that,
(41:58):
we will have on Dr. Bruce E.To discuss charismatic movements
and the need for churches thatboth believe in the power of the
spirit and the accepting loveof God. Then we're going to have
on Brian Wrecker to discusshis Instagram reels on church dogma
and his new book, Hell Bent.And finally, at the end of season
one, Francis Chan will be onthe show.
Probably. Probably if someonetells him about it. Because, you
(42:19):
know, he. He doesn't knowstill. Yeah, but some. Someone will
tell him. Probably.
Yeah. Not me, I imagine.
Yeah, not us.
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