Black Tigers + Sp. Guest Partha

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to the Wildbiz show. I'm Upamanyu and I'm Meghana and we have got a great

(00:08):
great show plan for you. Today is one of our special episodes so we will have a guest
for our closing segment so do stick around till the end if you're watching this live.
Other than that we will talk about tigers today and also a problem they're facing in
India's Shimli Pal Tiger Reserve. We also have some insect things to talk about. Apparently I

(00:39):
made a comment a few shows back around insects being sort of the least important in all of the
biodiversity. Maybe I need to retract that comment. Also very exciting for me is there has
been some developments around finding life on Mars. So yeah we'll cover a variety of topics. Megna, what else do we have?

(01:08):
Okay so I am going to be talking about, I mean we are going to be talking about the second
way paired that has been trapped in Queensland shark nets and it's part of the rescue mission.
So we're going to talk about how shark nets, frozen currents, if they're good they're not a spoiler.
And then we're also going to talk about how women let patrols and fire prevention restores the

(01:33):
forests in Northern Thailand. So how does community engagement work and how effective is it?
And then if we have time we will touch on other topics but that's about it.
Alright why don't we get straight into the headline topic around tigers. Again, tigers, one of our very

(02:13):
favorite animals I think both of us we have been sort of visiting tiger reserves for as long as I can
remember from a very young age for me. But this is a report from National Geographic. Very prominent while

(02:36):
photographer from India presenjit the other he did this photo story. He I think it mentioned the article he photographed this story
for over 14 months. But I'll just read sort of a summary of the article which says India's dig up
population once on the brink of extinction has significantly rebounded this is this is you know as true as it can be

(03:04):
and very positive campaign overall. However, these this ecological success has inadvertently led to a critical
problem the threat of genetic collapse of certain unique populations. The article this article details a 50 day quest in

(03:27):
Ori Shah's Simlipal tiger reserve to locate T12 an elusive 10 year old male tiger who's striking black melanistic coat makes
a symbol of this precarious situation. This forest official search for such tigers not only for research but also

(03:53):
to assess their physical health which camera traps might miss T12 the oldest male in Simlipal is central to plan
a mid and ensuring the genetic survival of its future generations the dramatic sighting of T12 described as an enormous tiger with dark fur
and orange slivers underscore the underscores the urgent efforts to monitor and protect these distinct tigers from an impending genetic crisis.

(04:24):
This is a problem because the tiger doesn't have tigers doesn't have enough space tigers have huge
territories some of us will know some of us will not but yeah truth is tigers have huge huge territories and they're mostly solitary animals and yeah it is it is a danger

(04:54):
and what this what this what the investigation and sort of the photo story has also found is that this tiger is sort of the T12 is the parent and his genes has been passed on to a lot of
offspring and a lot of ups of springs are being born with this with this condition which is supposed to be rare

(05:17):
and that means that there is in breeding happening which is which is a concern which is a concern.
And for those people who do not know about project tiger it there was this campaign maybe 10 to 15 years back ups.

(05:39):
More than 30 years I think 30 years project tiger 1970s what started.
No, no, it wasn't that old it was when we were younger are you sure that it was that old.
Project tiger is very old yes.
Project Tiger India.
Okay 1970s but when when was that entire thing of only 1411 tigers left when was that happening.

(06:09):
That was that was I think a bit later into into the into sort of the millennial age but yeah I think after the 2000s.
Yeah it was it was in 2006 so then the government and a lot of conservation organizations launched this entire what would you say campaign saying that there are only 1411 tigers left.

(06:38):
And the 1411 number became really significant and people rallied so that the tigers could be protected and conserved and this is one of the biggest conservation stories.
And now the tigers are I think about 3700.
Yeah I think the latest number or at least the 2022 number is that they're about 3700 so that is an amazing phenomenal increase but as hope to said it doesn't reflect.

(07:13):
This space constraint though because even though the tigers are increasing if there is a genetic collapse then that kind of goes against the entire what would you say the efforts of growing the tiger population to that level.
Yes and I think that is that is already a problem it is already the existing problem in goodger arts gear national park where the lines there are basically in bread to an extent where any small thing that affects one land can wipe out the entire population which is.

(07:56):
Which is not not not very ideal and this photo story sort of goes on to show that this all look at that all all the tigers.
I mean looks beautiful but yeah the tigers are being born with this genetic condition which basically without even like DNA testing or anything it goes to show that.

(08:25):
And this is a problem like they are in breeding.
But is there any side effects to be to having like darker stripes like we know that there is in breeding because you can see it on the face of it right but what in what if in other national parks there was in breeding but because there is no black gene like the black bird we do not know the extent of in breeding in other places.

(08:53):
It is pretty vehemently tracked all national parks this rose to that level of popularity because obviously this is this tiger the T12 tiger is very photogenic and obviously the offspring are being born that way as well.

(09:15):
So that that gave it that popularity but I think all national parks basically they track sort of the genetic diversity and all those different things.
And I think this is not without any solution so there is there has been sort of these efforts of raising the highways and creating like a corridor between a couple of different national parks.

(09:44):
I think there is a beautiful image here as well.
So yeah so this picture basically the human animals sort of boundaries are sort of thinning every day.
I will just go find that map.

(10:07):
This story does have a beautiful map which sort of trying to just find that but yeah basically there is an effort to connect a lot of different different tiger reserves so that this problem can be mitigated and the tigers can sort of roam free.

(10:32):
So I talked about the space for animals and how we have encroached into that over the years.
I think connecting those parks would be a good idea overall.
Yeah I think I don't know how bad it is for the tiger but like oops mentioned the lions literally they are like only in one state and it is also because that state prides itself for having the lion so they're like no we will not let them go anywhere.

(11:11):
So now the lions have overpopulated in that little area and how oops is spoken if there is anything then any problem the smallest little disease it will spread like wildfire through them and this is something that we do not want the tiger population so we still don't know what is the most effective solution for it.

(11:36):
Now and how badly does in breeding effect tigers up to you do you have any idea of what is the percentage of in breeding that usually happens and how badly is it affecting areas like simile pall and other places and whatever what are the side effects effect.
I think the simile pall tiger reserve is especially bad because it only has like a very handful number of number of tigers and you know 30 or so tigers and this and the reserve is not very huge as well so that that area has been shared by a smaller number of tigers so the interactions between tigers.

(12:21):
So the three tigers are increasing and we don't sort of want that high levels of interactions because tigers are solitary for a reason they need that area and that means that they have that area to look for different mates as they go by and that sort of its nature is way of

(12:50):
curbing in breeding so there there is plans of connecting simile pall to like sorry it cannot be connected to Sundarban because there is no corridor that's left because it goes through agricultural or urban areas so that is the main effort

(13:19):
that is going on per this this article you know connecting via those you know wildlife highways basically the images that I showed yeah I think that that is one of the only ways to do it.
There has been other efforts of introducing new tigers as well so here's an image where a tiger is called jamuna is being introduced into the reserve.

(13:55):
So this is also way of solving this problem you know introducing new genes but whatever be the solution it is a solution it seems like a human intervene solutions basically so we have to actively work for a certain period of time to make this happen and then it can go back to being completely natural I think.

(14:23):
But but tell me this is in did if there is in breeding happening introducing males would be the solution instead of introducing just females because obviously the males are territorial they are their hierarchical and the problem is this the problem is this so this male died in a fight with another male so if you introduce males the dominant male will end up taking the males the other way.

(14:53):
So the male that doesn't solve the in breeding problem them the in breeding is not just just because there are less females there the in breeding is happening because of the same male with a lot of females so that is not an active solution if you're just introducing a female that will not be the problem the problem to look at it is it's the gene pool that shrinking.

(15:23):
So you basically try to introduce new genes into the gene pool that's that's the solution so that's how it's it's amazing but that's how nature sort of balances it out you have to just introduce new genes but the new genes the new genes have to be both male and female right even with new genes if there is

(15:46):
five new genes that that have been introduced there's genetic diversity so after that even if there's a chance of in breeding that's fine.
Also the fact that I don't know about some leap but in most national tiger reserves a lot of males do stay not together but they have their own territories marked but the amount of fights and deaths that happen there I think minimal like the the fights that happen and the deaths that happen because of a fight like there are scuffles and there are scuffles between tigers and leopards as well in India but the amount of deaths that are caused are not going to be a lot of the same.

(16:29):
So why why only in simlipal are we not looking at introducing more male tigers as well.
I think the area is like very small compared to the other areas so this is.
How do you feel how do you feel about introductions from one place to another like I think even tigers a lot of tigers have a huge migratory pattern where I think some tigers have been seen traveling or walking from the top forest of the south till the forest of the north in India.

(17:08):
So I do not know how relocation is very helpful when tigers are a decently migratory species.
That's the thing like so the long term solution definitely is to create those highways for the tigers to migrate now there is no place for the tigers to migrate because there are no highways that they can't basically go from one reserve to other maybe there is a fence maybe there is physical blockage.

(17:37):
Or sort of human man made highway that's cutting through it and they cannot the tigers can't cross it.
So I think that's definitely the long term solution but I think the officials are also thinking of the short term solution so it says officials hope that this.

(18:00):
Jamuna will meet with simli pal's males and produce a more genetically diverse generation of tigers and I think also I think there is they might they definitely would have calculated the number of males per capita and all those things as well so I think there is enough males there in simli pal but.

(18:21):
And it also says that chandra pur tiger reserve is also another reserve that's sort of growing.
Like the tiger population is growing exponentially so it's not enough to contain all the tigers and I think it goes back to what you said a couple of episodes back that we have designated these national parks so they have to stay within that area.

(18:50):
Because they did like that that's that's the reason for these these kinds of problems yes I think yes I think we also we spoke about how we've made these borders for all animals and yeah because we made the borders we've created the problems but I would still believe that there are I don't know I mean it's still.

(19:17):
We are for me that we have to introduce and we have to do that yeah you know I mean like it's the same thing that we spoke about last time that that you know if it is if it is something that's.
Yeah again if this is not nature in use this is this is induced by us so it's different from the last topic but still I think it's it's really weird that we have to keep meddling with nature.

(19:45):
Till a certain point and I think that's the that's how I see like the future if we want nature to survive because we are encroaching so much and like not without reason though like because we have six six billion of us maybe maybe 90% of it is like the encroachment is without reason but 10% is also because we need to you know because where else will we see.

(20:13):
And things like that. I think that's the thing if the population keeps growing which is I think projected to reach 10 billion or 15 billion by some some estimates I think we'll have to keep meddling more and more in natural things so that we can protect that but also protect our interests as well so yeah I don't think there is any other way forward I don't know.

(20:42):
I don't know. I mean there is one of the ways is obviously curbing our population fast by doing more drives to not over populate.
We can we have tried that many countries are trying that actively and I think that is something that should be actively tried by every government.

(21:06):
I mean combined between just India and China we have almost three billion people so three eighth of the population stays here that's more than 25% stays just in these two countries which is a big big deal because our land area.
It doesn't match with the bigger countries like Russia and US. I mean China is kind of does but China is like populate like the population is concentrated within the big cities the rural areas are just call it full you know empty.

(21:42):
But that is with that is with a lot of places I think I mean if you go into remotry as in India as well there are hardly any people staying there it's always the cities that are concentrated because they are the places that provide you the opportunities and are dubbed as the land of dreams you know as they would say it which I think is the opposite but still I mean the the remote places are so much better but yes coming back to the target topic.

(22:12):
We're really really happy for present and for making it to the natural cover because those are some amazing pictures he's taken and a lot of hard work he's put in.
Yeah we want to get him in our show at some point as well but yeah it's a beautiful beautiful photo story.

(22:35):
Yeah it's done a good job with the words as well he's written the story as well so yeah it's it's a great great effort to bring this out to you know a lot of a lot of the world because also obviously all of this needs requires a significant amount of investment and significant amount of money as well.

(22:57):
So as much as we have that presence you know in the world we can expect more and more you know donors and people who are interested in people who are wanted to support that cause joining in that cause because yeah as bad as billionaires are it's the money as it's their money sort of that gets fueled and that fuels all of these projects big projects.

(23:26):
Talking about okay I think talking about Tiger is being trapped in national reserves we can talk about Wales being trapped in sharpness and oops I would need your help with the article because it's not letting me share it with that I can I can share it.
Yeah just saying please disable your ad blocker.

(23:51):
Yeah no worries.
Yeah so basically this isn't a news item from Australia and there are these images and there's a video that we would be showing you which shows a mother and a calf homeback whale fighting for their lives after becoming entangled in sharpness of new sub Queensland Queensland.

(24:13):
The pair was spotted on Wednesday with the calf it's serious drowning risk rescue efforts faced a seven hour delay due to safety concerns resulting in their freedom near 1145 p.m.
The calf reportedly became more entangled during the delay raising concerns for its long term well be this is the second mother calf homeback entanglement in sharpness within days and for those who do not know in the warm summer months.

(24:42):
Which is from July August September the and just I think a month before that the homeback whales the moms they migrate from the colder water off Antarctica.
Because they give birth in the warmer waters of it be Australia or Tonga or Cook Islands or anything not the which can also be places like Mozambique and other places wherever it is warmer because one there are like huge currents in the water and you know it's not great for the baby to be born in such huge current secondly it's really cold and in Antarctica.

(25:20):
And the shockster or have as much blubber and as much fat when you're really young and they need to they need to come up even more often up for a breath of air than the mom so the mom can be below the surface of 20 to 25 minutes but the baby needs to come up every five minutes for a breath.
And this is a this is like a very sad image where the baby is trapped in that sharp net and the mom is trapped a little bit as well.

(25:56):
Yeah and the thing is the thing is I mean you know people think that sharpness are great that they that they actually keep the sharks off at bay but the sharks like the research that has come out it has shown that with or without sharpness.
There is no difference one because the way the sharpness are placed they're not placed across an entire beach the place in small stretches and then in between there are gaps so there are wildlife that can enter in and then they might get trapped while going out or they might get trapped while coming in but either way the sharpness have been shown to not have any impact but if at all it has created this disastrous impact of you know what you say trap.

(26:43):
And then there have to be rescue efforts for them and then all the plastic waste into the ocean when these sharpness probably get fragmented or swept away if they do happen so these sharpness are just these false what would you say those false security to people that oh there are these nets and it is better to not have a false security but better have you know like wait what would you say like you know our drone petrol or something better like if there is.

(27:13):
Let's say I'm great writer a tiger or any kind of shark that is nearby that could be potentially risky for surface you could put up a board or you could have this announcement saying that today is not a good day to get into the water or you know like there are these risks at this beach like there are certain beaches in Australia that always say that this beach can has this risk or do not go surfing at this beach those are better ideas than putting these.

(27:38):
Shocklands which in my opinion are absolutely useless.
I think yes I think technology in general and I think there has been a lot of articles etc about AI being tracking wildlife and things like that so I think not even drones like if we have some cameras high enough on a pole then they can sort of monitor.

(28:07):
Like the shoreline or any potential threats any potential sharks entering but I think that false sense of security is what why shard nets are still there people are like oh there is something that might protect me so why not but yeah I guess it's the same theory as it's the same theory as if you tell people that there is a god up there.

(28:37):
That will protect you then people will have that false sense of security and that you know that fall back plan that oh yes you know that is someone who is looking after me and I think is the same thing with the shard nets and for people who did not know I mean shark deaths I think are two to three deaths a year maximum 10 deaths there are attacks maybe up to 20 attacks but there are two things in this one obviously you do not fall into.

(29:07):
The diet of a shark they when you're surfing you look like a seal to them because their eyesight isn't great but their receptors at their nose and other senses are more heightened than the eyesight so you look like a seal to them and they come and obviously there one bite can take off a hand or a leg but then they leave you and go it's not because you punched the shark or you kicked the shark it's because the shark did not like your taste but there one bite is.

(29:36):
It's big enough to actually like you know take off a hand or a leg a bite sharks are obviously demonized because of this and also how we spoke about a few episodes back right up the bat jaws and how it created here for beach goers I mean people the most dangerous thing for humans after mosquitoes are humans like humans kill humans the most but we would rather be scared of your shark.

(30:06):
The shark in the water than a human online TV is the most dangerous thing TV no no I'm talking about like like an amount of something attacking right right like the mosquitoes are the best that was the death and then it's humans and then I think it's dogs so something like that there's a whole hierarchy of things but humans after mosquitoes I mean mosquitoes if we hate them so much but we love humans so much right yeah that's what I'm talking about.

(30:36):
It's always a different topic to debate but yes so the shark nets in grand total I think a waste we should get the shark nets out let the wildlife breed especially I mean imagine you have a small child I mean that little baby still struggling to breed and it's trapped in this net doesn't know what it is.

(31:01):
The mums stay with their babies for up to six months to an year the mums when they migrate to warm waters and this is amazing and real so they don't have any food source in the warm waters in the cold waters they feed on krill which are these tiny tiny
what would you say yeah like things yeah I should like things so they're really tiny and we also like filter feeders kind of like filter feeders so when they don't have any food for six months or how many of a months they're traveling to the warm waters they're not eating the mums are not eating anything but they're still feeding their young which I don't know how many species can do but this is absolutely epic that they have the energy stored in them to feed and they're not eating anything.

(31:48):
So I think it's great that this article mentions or has this photograph there where young people kids are sort of having that peaceful protest and campaigning for the mums.
So I think it's great that this article mentions or has this photograph there where young people kids are sort of having that peaceful protest and campaigning for for chocolate and so getting out chocolate and I think this is important because I think it's really important to get out of the mums.

(32:28):
Because that is what will make the government change those rules and change those things because it has a quote from minister minister for primary industries Tony Perett said that the government will always quote always put the safety of people above sharks end quote.
So that is I think that is the general thinking when it comes to any kind of human animal interaction I think that is the default stance of the government and I think that has to be the default stance of the government.

(33:04):
The stance is fine but the implementation is not the implementation is useless like I mean if you're going to say that a sharpness are actually protecting people that is not true right so even if they're if they have the public interest at large there are better ways to do it than have a sharp man that is not helping the people or the sharks or other marine life out there.

(33:28):
I think that is with every government that again governments give you this false and so security that they're doing a whole lot for you even if it is installing shortcuts only for 100 to 100 meters and then not having anything and then again having sharpness for 100 to 100 meters they would say we did our job there's a lot of safety in the water so you know I mean I'm done with my job I have put the people and they say otherwise right they can't say it has to be a lot of people.

(33:58):
But we won't we will put sharks above because that will just even if they don't mean it they have to say those things because otherwise they would just lose.
No, obviously I'm not saying that they would say that but I'm just saying that implementation on part of every government across the world is is loop warm I would say it's a new one like you know when it comes to anything I'm not even talking about environment environment is like police it's on the back burner for most governments because there are other pressing issues but we even when it comes to.

(34:35):
New environment it's very fizzled out and it's very loop warm the efforts that are made to actually help people or animals or any kind of set up when there's a human animal wildlife conflict there are very few places where there's like really active.
You know what would you say efforts from the government and in totality I think when we were discussing this topic oops wasn't sure about how sharpness you know how great sharpness were or how bad it was but then I think he researched and then he was like okay yes I agree with you sharpness are not good.

(35:12):
Yes that's that's what I found speaking of look warm and heat I think this is a topic that has been sort of in my mind for for some time now so a very hot planet mass we have been deploying some satellites and rover.

(35:42):
There's a lot of different things to prepare it or the dream of settling their ones but we also have scientific interests in in mass in terms of if there was life that would be hugely satisfying because oh we are not alone in the 7000 billion light years wide universe.

(36:08):
So strange leopard spots in a mass rock could be the strongest hint of life yet. NASA's Perseverance mass rover has identified sapphire canyon a rock sample from J.0 craters, Shiava Falls as the top candidate for preserving ancient microbial science collected from a dry riverbed this sample contains potential biosignatures.

(36:37):
Substances suggesting biological origin so we already know that mass at some point had liquid water and the the area where Perseverance rover is deployed was chosen very carefully because it it is in a dry riverbed so that means

(37:04):
there is more potential of finding some trace of life where there used to be liquid water because we have identified that liquid water is one of those things that is sort of a requirement for life from the from the experience we have which is basically earth.

(37:28):
Published in nature. Oh sorry you finished and I'll ask you two questions. Okay published in nature which is the top journal for scientific discoveries published in scientific discoveries.
This discovery is hailed as the closest humanity has come to finding life on Mars a groundbreaking achievement acting NASA administrator Sean Duffy noted its significance for understanding the red planet found within the bright angel formation of net bar falls and ancient river valley the finding reflects NASA's strategic mission planning as I said.

(38:08):
The agency commits gold standard science by making peer review data available to wider scientific community for analysis and biological potential so I just share the images on the screen.
So this is basically okay first of all look at this article and look at the number of authors it has this is I think this is like the most number of authors I've ever seen in a paper because everyone wants to everyone in that community like astrobiology community wants to get a piece of this and this has already had like 312,000 people accessing this article so this is I think equivalent of going by.

(38:54):
So this is the part of the perseverance rover. This this bright angel patch of thing is where this was found this this sign was found and this is sort of the field of view from the perseverance rover itself.

(39:49):
They found they have done some spectral analysis and they're pretty as they're saying like it's a pretty strong candidate for having life on Mars.
Very exciting very very exciting. Yeah.
Now I'm going to ask you the two questions one. Yes.

(40:11):
So this is still only a potential there is no confirmation.
No, no, it is it is a potential thing we have to still do a lot of more lot more experiments to confirm.
And my second question is that you said, okay, I actually have three questions now.
Okay, my second question is that you said it would be nice to have life somewhere outside on another planet to know that we are not alone.

(40:39):
And algae is your idea of having a companion somewhere outside.
No, but that's that's like I'm going to be happy talking to like one lepreth but somewhere.
I will be happy to have found evidence that life evolved somewhere else as well.
I'll be happy with that information even if there is no active life there, I'll be happy and I think I'm speaking for the entire community that is interested in astrobiology.

(41:11):
I'll be happy just by that information that we have found life somewhere else.
Okay, and the third question actually, okay, now I have one more question, but the third question, wait, what was my third question.
Yeah, but I'll ask you my fourth question first.

(41:33):
Okay, no, no, I found okay, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, I remember my third question.
Why do humans think that because humans need water to survive all life on all planets need water to survive?
We don't think like that. We don't think like that.
We assume that we assume that because life is evolved so brilliantly with the presence of water and with the correct temperatures.

(42:01):
So that because it's like a needle in the haystack.
So which haystacks would you like needles a needle in multiple haystacks.
So which haystacks would you choose you choose haystacks that you know that life has evolved before because we have only one example of life evolving.
So we just look at similar planets.

(42:24):
We can know it based it off that saying that every planet has to have plants and trees and water and sun and all this on.
I don't know, but we can't look at like every planet right.
Like there are like unimaginable number of.
No, I'm just saying, I'm just saying why do we assume that life means is equal because that makes is easier to look to to focus our efforts on particular planets.

(42:51):
Because otherwise we'll be just be randomly looking at planet and hoping that we would come by a life which is more expensive.
And my last question is obviously something that we have debated off screen earlier, but my question is how do you justify the exponential cost of finding just potential life or leopard spots on Mars when there are eight million people and

(43:19):
how much ever like the plethora of incredible life on planet earth and not actually pumping that money into research and let's say protection and conservation into life here.
How is it justified the cost.
I think that is that is a slightly more difficult question to answer, but I would try my way to look at things is this is advancing human knowledge and I think that is the only way we have gotten ahead from every other species that is there and we are ensuring our survival other species survival at times as well.

(44:00):
I think that is the only way we can if we if we stop being curious it's the price of our curiosity and we know if we stop being curious then we are nowhere we will just stagnate and die off so no we still have so much I mean we still not even explore the ocean properly we know just like maybe

(44:23):
people who are interested in oceans they are they also have a right to their research and people who are interested in astrobiology they also have a right to their research so that is how I see it one is exponentially expensive than the other but there are billionaires who are funding this endeavor and there are billionaires that are funding the other and the

(44:46):
so which I understand interest and the curiosity I just do not understand the justification of the course because I think there are enough people also need that kind of money to survive in on this planet.
I think there is a lot of people that are interested in this like at the point when the drugs all the different drugs were being researched and they were being invented etc. they were thought of as you know useless when Newton was doing his mathematics they were thought of as you look when Charles Darwin was doing his theory of evolution he was ostracized and he was thought being useless no I'm not I'm not even talking about all signs can be useless to some people at some point.

(45:31):
science is useful or useless at some point of time, like the timing of a theory and how
useful it turns out later. No, I'm just talking about the justification of course. I'm
not talking about research in itself. I'm just talking about the justification of course
because we have life on this planet that needs to sustain on the kind of money that is
come to it. I'm just talking about the justification of first. I'm not saying don't do the research.

(45:54):
But if we don't, don't do that research then how else would we come to know that if
there is something worth coming to know. No, but I think I think one of the things that
oops is not saying right now, he said off screen, as far as we have to look for life on
other planets because what would happen if you know like we, it is not habitable anymore.

(46:14):
We need to have some other planet to go. No, but but that is regardless of life, right?
That is regardless of we as finding life, like we can have it in the moon. There are plans
to have it in the moon at some point. There are plans to have it in the past. There's still
controversy on if Neil Armstrong ever set his foot on the moon. That is a controversy.

(46:35):
That is a controversy. And no, no, no, no, literally nobody in the last, what is it?
No, you don't call that a controversy. It's not a controversy. It's a, it's a, it's a,
it's a theory. It's a conspiracy theory because there are, you know, overwhelming evidence
of him being on moon on the moon, but we'll send another ass on soon. No point.

(47:01):
No point. I don't think it is not even about what his picture is dead and the flattering
of the flag and all of that. No, no, that I think the main problem people have is that nobody
set foot on moon after 70. I think 1969, 1969 was a period in time where technology, we were not
even that advanced and we were able to send a rocket and we were able to land on the moon

(47:25):
with people coming out of their craft and actually taking a sample or putting a flag into the moon.
And now in the last 55 years where we have AI doing our chores for us, we've not been able to
send another human on to the moon, which I think is the main question when people are like, did we
actually ever go to the moon because if it was possible in 1969, why is it not possible in 89

(47:48):
in 2009 and 2029? Yeah, we'll, we'll find out soon enough because there, there is, there are already
plans multiple different countries sending astronauts again to the moon, including our country
so that'll be exciting to see if that's correct and to validate all those.
I mean, I'm still not a very pro person. I mean, I'm okay with PVP people's curiosity. I just

(48:15):
never can justify the kind of cost that goes into astro research. But that's me. I love looking
at the night sky and everything that the night sky offers, but I just don't know, I'm not even to
justify the question in my head. But I think it will always be this, you know, this push and pull.

(48:39):
Yeah, there will always be some people who are okay with spending that kind of money.
Like, you know, the best was just five glamorous ladies going into space for whatever 12 minutes
and coming again, that has also been a controversy with the door opening, if the sort of window
opening episode, whatever it is. But there will be people, I think all of the world's

(49:04):
billionaires are already thinking about, you know, the habitation bit. But for me, the interesting bit
from this piece of this piece of scientific research, this paper, which is titled,
Redox Driven Mineral and Organic Associations in Jiseric Radermass. I mean, scientists always
never fail to make interesting topic boring as hell with their titles. But this paper is actually

(49:32):
very interesting and very exciting for me because this is another step in that in that astrobiology.
Yeah, because oops, oops, oops, it's extremely attached to that leopard spot in Mars and how he's
like, wow, I have a friend on Mars with a small spot that probably was in the...

(49:52):
We will, this is this is the first step and we will, I'm certain that we will we will find more and more
evidence as we go by it, as we go look for in other places or we'll not, that's to find out.
But anyway, very exciting, very cool. I don't know if it is very exciting and very cool,

(50:19):
definitely cooler than our planet, I guess, you know, colder, I mean colder. But talking about
and getting back to Earth, obviously you want to talk about the insect topic because I think that
is something that we should definitely cover before we have our special guest on board. Definitely,
I think this is a top, this is a report from Manga Bay News as well. It just titled The Great

(50:48):
Insect Crisis. So it goes on to say insects fundamental to global ecosystems which they are
are experiencing alarming declines worldwide, prompting a 2019 Manga Bay special series by Jeremy
Hans to investigate this insect apocalypse. The report traced the crisis, crisis is global scale,

(51:10):
highlighting drastic examples such as significant reduction in flying insects in Germany and the
neocolapse of ars-prod populations within Puerto Rico's forests. Hans's four part series drew
insights from interviews with 24 entomologists spanning six contents providing a comprehensive look

(51:33):
into the environmental challenge. It meticulously explored the current understanding and remaining
gaps in knowledge concerning the magnitude underlying causes and potential ecological consequences
of insect tick line. This critical examination underscored the urgency of addressing the rapid

(51:55):
disappearance of these vital creatures which underpin essential global functions. Yeah, it's
hard to imagine how much important insects are. We know the importance of bees, we know the
importance of insects as pollinators and I think that is a huge part of what insects do for the

(52:17):
ecosystem, keeping the ecosystems healthy, keeping the ecosystems balanced. And they are the most,
I think, important, what would you say, link in the food chain because they're right at the
bottom. So if you're going to wipe them out, you're essentially wiping everything else out. So either
you take out the predators or you take out something that is right at the base level. So insects are

(52:42):
something that would probably be really good for the plants. Now, land insects probably are
contributing, you know, you would know when even farmers take out plants, there are insects under it.
So the insects are always working on the soil, the insects are working on the land, they're working
on the flowers, they're working on the plants. And there are different insects with different

(53:03):
biological functions. But if you're going to, and the insects are the source of food for a lot of,
and it was just a rabbit. So like frogs and leopards and geckos, sorry leopards, not leopards, lizards,
I meant lizards and geckos and everything else is just about it. And birds obviously, a lot of
birds are insect eating birds. So if you're going to take the insects out of the equation, you're

(53:26):
taking out a lot of animals out of the equation. And I think we were speaking about this a few
episodes back, which is why oops mentioned this. So we, I think oops mentioned this, I think a few
episodes back that you are not very concerned about insects. And this comes up, this comes from our

(53:47):
filmmaking course. I think, you know, would you, would you freeze a dead mosquito and feed it to a
spider and would you freeze the dead spider and feed it to a spider? Like the ethical standards applied
to insects versus something bigger than insects is, yeah, is, is vastly different.

(54:10):
Yeah. So that, that, that, that plays, plays an important part there. And, and we always, you know,
even if you're not interested in wildlife, you would have heard the phrase that, you know,
measuring or weighing all the insects, you know, together and then weighing all human population,

(54:39):
the insects would come and, you know, wait here. So, you know, you just think that, oh, there are
too many insects probably, or there are the least concerns. So I think it's good to
bring this out into, into the open where, and Manga Bay is very good at doing these, these

(55:03):
kinds of stories where they bring out the critical important things to, to the public view,
very, very quickly and very, very efficiently. And we have seen how

(55:23):
their, their sharp meat expose and things like that, it has sparked a real change.
Yeah. And I think I think the thing with even us as, you know, wildlife communicators is that
we also sometimes tend to pick up topics about the bigger charismatic wildlife over something like

(55:44):
insects. While insects are beautiful and have like all the colors and nature and, you know,
all the amazing things that they do for us, but we tend to overlook it just because there's
so much tinier than us. And, you know, sometimes we just call them creepy crawlies, but we do not want to,

(56:06):
I mean, even in our own homes, like they say that if you have earthworms in your, in your soil,
it's really good and your plants would grow really well. So, you know, any kind of insect is
actually really beneficial, but we don't see it as a benefit until we just only see the benefit in
certain parts and certain areas, but insects everywhere have their own benefits. And that is why I

(56:32):
think, you know, we would also make a constant and consistent effort to bring all kind of topics up,
not just about charismatic wildlife, but the smaller wildlife, the, even the astro-research,
even if we don't have like similar thoughts on it, about just different climates and every little

(56:52):
and every small thing. Yeah, and I think that's our duty as science communicators as well,
to bring that out in an easy to understand way to the public. Yep, and I think,
yeah, and I think talking about duty, we can actually switch to the next topic, which is about duty of this,

(57:16):
this, this women who are actually leading this conservation initiative in the Northern forests in
Thailand, even though, you know, so Northern Thailand faces severe annual haze from crop burning
and forest fires, causing significant human health issues. And it is not just Northern Thailand,

(57:38):
it is there in a lot of areas, even in India, in the winter months here, we have severe crop
burning, which has led to a lot of asthma and different breathing problems. So for over two decades,
a women-led group in lampunk province has proactively combated this by restoring their local community
forest. What they have done is that they have an innovative fire prevention approach, combining

(58:03):
regular patrol patrols, checking the dams, fire breaks and a unique wildlife alert system.
And this has made them a recognized regional model.
Racha Prabha Kamputh, leader of the band-pong group, explains how moist forest soil,
maintained by small check dams, cultivates valuable edible mushrooms and other non-timber

(58:26):
products year round. The sustainable method provides villages income, eliminating the need for
destructive burning practices. Since 2007, they have transformed a 40 hectare form of peanut
plantation, creating a moist nutrient-rich environment, even in dry seasons. And I think this
is the topic and what we see this is the last line that they have transformed it. And so,

(58:52):
there must have been a really, really dry forest and they have transformed it in such a way
that it not only protects the forest, but there are areas like there are other non-timber
products like the valuable edible mushrooms and other products that they're able to get from
the forest and also sell and get an income. So, it is a win-win situation and very rarely in
wildlife do you see like win-win situations because if you're going to do something good for the

(59:18):
humans and you're doing something bad for the, you know, for the wildlife or the forest and in
some terms when you do something good for the forest, then you end up doing something bad for the
humans like either what would you say? This plays them or create boundaries or create, you know,
some kind of issue. But here it is the community that has come forward and the community that

(59:40):
has taken that effort here, it being women and they have actively and proactively created this change.
I think that is a great thing to realize as well, where, you know, those areas where

(01:00:04):
we have that ability to, you know, propagate that kind of idea. And I think always we know this,
you know, mothers are very effective and very instrumental in passing on their thoughts and passing

(01:00:25):
on their principles to the young as well. And I think this sort of mentality, this sort of a
principled way of doing these things as Ming that was mentioning, I find it very, very, very helpful

(01:00:46):
because that just ensures that that sort of thought process is spread, spread out and it will
ensure sort of the next generations. And the thing is, yep, and the thing is that, you know, we've
heard this a lot of times that change begins from us, but we don't actually implement it.

(01:01:13):
And here they've actually implemented it. And through very tiny things, like nothing big,
nothing that makes a huge impact. What they've done is that they found small streams, they've made
small check dams so that, you know, the water can be dispersed to different areas. They have made
sure that some kind of fungus and mushrooms grow here. So, and, you know, as you know,

(01:01:35):
fungus and mushrooms always grow in like moist soil. They need the kind of moisture to grow.
So they make sure that there is that kind of moisture around the area. So everything is moisturized.
And if nothing is dry, then there's no chance of wildfires happening.
Yeah. And I think that is a very scientific approach they're taking as well. So it's just not,

(01:01:58):
we're doing this because we love the forest, but we're doing this the right way. We're doing this,
you know, through science, which basically would mean that, you know, the would ensure the survival
of things even further into the future. Yes. And what they've done is they've planted a lot of

(01:02:20):
native trees. And these native trees, when they have a lot of moisture and their leaves fall
onto the floor, their natural fertilizers as well. So, you know, we do not give enough credit to
the to the natural trees. And I think we're spoken about this multiple times in different episodes.
So send me how we need more native trees because they're most suited to the weather. Just like,

(01:02:42):
I talk about native dogs and, you know, adopting the native dogs. They're best suited to the climate
environment. Anything native. Yes. Anything native. Yes. So because they've been here for thousands and
thousands of years. So they are best suited for the climate. They're best suited for the seasons
that are there. So they're seasonally also acclimatized. So like the trees in India, they get like,

(01:03:04):
like, you know, whatever, two months in a year because they're the monsoon only for two months,
but they're able to survive on those two months of water. Then their rainwater table is just stored
to the extent that they can survive for a whole year. So similarly, in this area, they have done that.
They have made sure that there's enough water flowing so that the trees grow and the trees in

(01:03:26):
in turn, when their leaves fall or a natural fertilizer. So they are helping the moisture and the
growth of spores and mushrooms. And the mushrooms are in in turn feeding the people. So they are
motivated to keep protecting and making new areas like this protected so that there is no crop burning
happening. And there is no, you know, no health issues from the crop burning because as we know,

(01:03:50):
a lot of people actually burn the crops because they need that area to grow new plants. So what they do
is that they would cut the, you know, they would cut off the produce and then they would shave it
really fine and then they would burn the rest of the little stops so that they can, you know,
they believe that the ash from those stops where it acts as natural fertilizer, but what they do

(01:04:14):
not realize is when you burn the area and you burn pick areas, the pollution that it causes and the
wind with which it has taken over areas nearby can cause breathing issues and it can cause other
health issues. So this is a better way because you are actually making sure that they do not have to
burn those crops. Yeah, it's, it's very cool. And I like how, how

(01:04:42):
the the holistic approach, right? I like the holistic approach that they're they're taking.
Yeah, I feel like that that is great in terms of how they are approaching this situation.

(01:05:02):
Yes. And the thing is that, you know, the village that we're talking with the band-fong village,
it is only home to around 7,100 people. And yet they've been able to create such an impact that
Manga Bay has covered this entire article. It's talked about how women, I mean, the the woman who
started this where she was saying how the villagers were really surprised when they would see that

(01:05:29):
women like her would venture out to extinguish the blazes carrying heavy equipment, but when they
saw how effective they could be their reputation grew. So I think this is everywhere, you know,
when you start doing something, people would judge you, people would demotivate you, but then when
they see how effective it is, then they would support you. Yeah, yeah, I think and I think as

(01:05:51):
as we said with last last story as well, it's very important that these stories, even though it's not as
sort of viral, worthy or something, I think for a responsible media house and that's why we choose
stories and articles from these responsible media houses who are not only putting out things

(01:06:18):
for just entertainment, but also bringing out the real issues,
yes, and there's a really, really nice line in the article that says that Rajya Prapa has said
when we protect the forest, the forest protects us, and this is so important because I think,

(01:06:40):
you know, these women started this because they were fed up of the irritation, their eyes caused by
the smoke, and they did something about it, but most people would just accept and just sit down and
not do anything about it. So it is amazing, and we applaud their efforts for actually doing this.

(01:07:03):
Yes, that is great. I think we have five minutes to just give an update on the Brazil sharp meat.
I think that's a good thing to do while we wait.

(01:07:27):
So this is the continuation from the Manga Bay sort of expose that they did.
So the Brazilian government is reviewing its legal framework for shark trade,
encompassing thin exports, and we have sort of started tracking this on our show as well,

(01:07:50):
where we, and this has been tracking very, very, very well, you know, so far where there was this
expose, and then it led to some action within the government and within the higher ups, etc.

(01:08:11):
So we'll keep tracking this story. So it has, you know, weighed new measures. That means they're
still in the talks, but they are sort of going in the right direction. It is what this article
is basically saying. They're going in the right direction. They're trying to implement some of the

(01:08:39):
some of the recommendations from scientists, etc. And I think that's great. When leaders, when
politicians consider evidence from given by science, which happens very rarely,
that just makes me happy, you know. And I think here it says that the move aims to reduce

(01:09:06):
incidental capture of sharks and other threatened species by up to 40%. So what I understand from
here is that obviously they're looking at curbing fishing practices or at least making changes in
the fishing practices. But at the same time, I think there are going to be some changes in the
import regulations. And hopefully when there are changes in the import regulations. And I think

(01:09:27):
that's where the changes could happen, right? Like that's that's those are the changes that will
have the most amount of impact. I feel like like if you can change, if you can
campaign enough to change the regulation, that's how you will get people to like that's how you can

(01:09:52):
implement these things on mass. Like you might want to you can the only way I see you can really
these sorts of problems is through when regulations come in. And you know, basically they

(01:10:13):
I think the element they need to or completely elements that pathway for people to have that sort of
yeah for people to have that for exporters importers everyone to have that pathway.

(01:10:35):
Yeah, I think it is really important if the source from where the problem originates like here
the shark is being fed to small children and even in hospitals and everywhere. So if the shark
meat is curved right there and then then it might make global change in how the sharks are produced
like the how the sharks are procured and if the sharks are not procured itself then we can actually

(01:10:58):
make a significant change. So it has to start from where the demand is if there is no demand there
will be no supply. Yeah, I think that's that's that's that's what governments should look at which
unfortunately is the last things last thing governments look at because yeah it's it's very

(01:11:25):
difficult for politicians to for politicians to pay any heed to you know to scientific evidence
it's very very difficult for politicians to pay get to pay any heed to scientific evidence so

(01:11:47):
so yeah it's it's bad but how the story is progressing and we have been tracking this story and
we'll continue to track the story looking like things are going in the right direction.
But anyway our guests arrived in the waiting room so we are ready for him. I'll just give a short

(01:12:14):
introduction before so as as I said at the beginning we have a special guest here and today so
as name is Partha Sarathi Mishra an assistant professor at Shushty Manipal Institute of Arts
Bangalore Arts Design and Technology Bangalore since 2011 he has focused on wildlife biology

(01:12:40):
particularly private behavior and macaques. His PhD studied long tailed macaque relationships
on Great Nicobar Island. He's VP of Student Affairs at the International Primetological Society
researching anthropogenic impact on macaque communication. In his free time,

(01:13:01):
Partho enjoys acting, hiking, motor bike rides and spending time with his lab rescue beagle
named Flipper which is fantastic. So without any more delay I'll just welcome
Partho to the show. Hi Partho welcome to the Wildbid show. Thank you for taking the time to
join us and we are very thrilled to have you here. Thank you so much for having me here.

(01:13:26):
It's a good way to start us on day though. Yes I think so I would say. So before we begin
could you just sort of tell us your journey into research and how like macaques found you I would say.

(01:13:48):
Yeah that's the right way to go about it. So I think it came out a long back when I was growing
up I think I was a lot of documentaries I think that's a gateway to many many people who
actually are into this but who were coming from a very small town it wasn't really easy to

(01:14:09):
I really didn't know what is really going on in India and that time there was no internet and
the information was really I would say quite less. Having said that then I did my biotech as
bachelors and masters which was not the ideal for me because I thought I would be rather going

(01:14:29):
to the field rather than being a lab. Later on it will keep hit me that okay maybe lab is
also as important in the wildlife as well as going into the wild. So I got an opportunity
long back in 2011 to work on the Tiger Project in WII Wildlife Institute of India. I was
starting there because I had no experience beforehand so that was a really good gateway to get

(01:14:53):
into it and to understand what goes along when it comes to conservation counting the numbers
of animals what goes along when I threw out the day-to-day lives of researchers, forest departments
and everyone who is involved in conservation all living with animals per se.
I think there was an incident which kind of attracted me towards primates a lot. I didn't jump

(01:15:17):
on directly on the amacats because I wasn't really aware of how many species of monkeys even
we have in India at that point of time. So I saw one day the Jeep which we used to travel by in the
forest. We were going and suddenly the Jeep came to a certain heart. We saw a small monkey

(01:15:40):
if we was in the middle of the road it was a longoor and he was reaching very loudly so it was actually
stuck on the middle of the road and the family was like really scared of it. So nobody was coming
to rescue this little one. So I saw there was another little monkey who came down and took this

(01:16:01):
another little one on his shoulder even even if he was or she was really really struggling to really
carry this baby. That was pretty fascinating to see because the risk was pretty high for both of
them to actually go through that and they had no way to know whether they will be humming them or not.
So for them it's a big big danger that is in front of them and this young one is taking care of

(01:16:23):
another young one. So I try to understand how this really really works out when it really comes to
taking care of yourself because everyone wants to mix. I mean coming from biological background we
all know that it's about genes and everyone wants to maximize their genes coming to the next
or going to the next generation. So that's was my understanding but then I wanted to know how

(01:16:45):
group animals actually worked out. So I worked on similar smaller projects until I found
my really my calling to be honest like there was a project that was working in
Great Nikobar Island. In India it was Dr. Kumara's work from Salimali Centre of Ornithology

(01:17:05):
and Natural History in Kwanbatore. So Dr. Kumara was my guide and I went to Great Nikobar Island.
It was a life-changing experience to be honest and absolutely and I saw a lot of the long-tail
macaques for the first time. I mean they are only present on three islands in Nikobar islands

(01:17:29):
and to get to Nikobar it's not also something that many people do. So the information that has
come from these macaques for also scanty there was few isolated reports of what has been happening
so this was the first major project that we have taken on and we were three of us we wanted to
know more about everything about whatever we can get from our time in the month. When you started

(01:17:58):
that that sort of research and investigation at that point they were still a poorly described
poorly researched species would you say? Species not so much because it's a very common species
in throughout Southeast Asia because they are the population is huge in some of these areas in

(01:18:19):
Thailand and in Bali and some of these areas the population is thriving and in fact they are
becoming kind of a minus to the city administrators at least in some places like
Lok Puri and all those places in Thailand there is a huge population but having said that
we didn't really look at the subspecies level of it which these monkeys have around 10

(01:18:43):
subspecies and one of these and they're very widely separated from each other. Many of them are
found on very isolated islands one of which is so these are macaque fascicularies as in the
genus and scientific name but the one which we studied in Nikova is macaque fascicular is Amrosus

(01:19:06):
and there are nine more such subspecies throughout Southeast Asia and so we thought okay maybe
subspecies levels since they are separated for so long maybe there is a difference among how they
look and how they do their things and that is true because if we look at the monkeys that we find
in Thailand they look very very different from the one that we have in Nikova. Our species

(01:19:31):
very dark and and those are quite I would say rufus color or slight brown so that's a huge difference
between in the morphological features also in certain ways but we had no way to know whether
it was due to world reason and which will do not know to be honest and so it was fascinating for

(01:19:51):
us to look at okay maybe this island biosegraphy might be very different when it comes to the monkey
and their population and and in surviving these islands because island has its own thing going on
for them and their ecology and it's an isolated place and so how the population increases in the
finite space with finite resources is something that we really wanted to know. There was one major

(01:20:13):
study that was done in 2003 by Dr. Omar Pati from CC and B and Dr. Meev Singh from
Mysore University it's about how these monkeys are spread out in the three islands there are three
islands in Kachal, Little Nikovaar and Great Nikovaar and they are pretty far off from each other

(01:20:34):
and for this first project actually looked at the basic idea of where these monkeys could be found
and the very basic biology of it so that was the first thing but the problem was immediately after
2003 there was this life changing or geography changing thing that happened in on the islands and it

(01:20:55):
was the tsunami and that actually impacted a lot of places because if you look at the the maps of
places the lot of beach or the coastal areas got submerged so there was also a report in 2010
by Dr. Shiva Kumar from WII that there is a drastic decrease in population of these monkeys

(01:21:19):
so when we started the work we wanted to know okay what is happening what is the condition now because
2010 to 2013 or 14 there was quite some time and it's known from elsewhere that the monkeys are
actually very adapted I mean the macaques especially can be very adapted because they can

(01:21:39):
survive on any food items for that matter and especially that what we have seen in other species
or in other species in long-tail macaques they can actually do very well with human food
living next to humans and actually they survive a flurry of shiven at times so we wanted to know
how these monkeys are doing having said that because these are the only ones that we find on the

(01:22:00):
island so there perhaps there are a lot of differences between what we find on mainland
and something what we find on the island so that was the major goal of understanding
of having a larger understanding of these macaques when we actually went to the island yeah.
I so I wanted to ask one are there out of the three islands or do all of them have human

(01:22:25):
population or are there islands which just have the monkeys and are they surviving or secondly
like what happened after the tsunami like why did it create more human wildlife conflict did
it impact the resources or was it just submergence of land.
So for the first question yes all the three islands have humans as well as the monkeys living there

(01:22:50):
and they have very interesting histories because the people who live on these three islands are very
again very varied from each other so the in the history of Kachal which is one of the islands which
I never mentioned but my colleagues did and what we knew from there was this place was a huge
palm oil plantation and after a point of time it was kind of like I mean it was abandoned so it

(01:23:14):
became a nice place for the monkeys to actually live there and flourish themselves and there was
there's a lot of political history also from that island was after when we when we were having
Sri Lankan Tamil says refugees in India we Kachal was one of the places where these people were
rehabilitated and so of course they also had the indigenous population of Nikobar is tribe as well

(01:23:40):
so it was a mixed population of different people from different parts of India and also certain parts
of say other parts of the parts of South Asia sorry South Asia for the second question
there has been a report of increased conflict among the monkeys and the people but

(01:24:02):
the reasons can be very complex and varied among the among all the islands to be honest because we
do not know if the increase in the increase in the conflict is there in the little Nikobar island
as well because the little Nikobar island might be the only island where only the indigenous tribe

(01:24:24):
people live and nobody else from the mainlanders actually go there yes sometimes the teachers
from poor Blair who are from inland or from who are non-Indigenous would actually go there teach for
some time and come back during election time people will go there police maybe goes guard and some
shipping people would be there but very small numbers so there is no report from there where we

(01:24:49):
can say that okay little Nikobar has a conflict because having said that indigenous people for both
all of these islands happened therefore quite some time and we have never gotten or nobody has ever
listened to any complaint from them about monkeys destroying the crops or eating up a lot of their

(01:25:10):
lively old and things like that but having said that the history behind all these islands
especially great Nikobar where I was was very interesting because the number of people and the
variety or variety would not be the right word but the people where they are coming from is quite
varied because in 1916 because it is so close to Indonesia it is like 126 kilometers only from the

(01:25:34):
nearest part of Indonesia it is Panda Acha it is again it is only 126 kilometers and it is also
extremely close to the international shipping line which is one of the most busiest shipping line
to Singapore and which connects Singapore with the rest of the world at especially the west
so this was a very strategic area so 1969 our prime minister of that time Indira Vandeshitha

(01:26:01):
okay this is a very strategic area so maybe it can be a good place for us to be so there was a nice
understanding between Indonesian authorities and India when they formed a pact of okay this place
should be like named after or named India would be occupied by India or it will it will

(01:26:22):
launch to India for that matter and for that reason the Indira point that is the south for the most
part of any Indian territory is there on the on the southern most part of Great Nikobar Island
so that was done because Indira Gandhi was one of the architects of what was happening but what
really happened was there was initially some 40 odd families was actually settled on the island

(01:26:47):
because previously there was only indigenous population of two tribes one is Nikobaris and the
other one is Shampen the Rikobaris are I would say at this point of time are more assimilated with
the the mainlanders who have come but Shampen are it if you're about it for I don't know maybe

(01:27:07):
for right reasons but they have we do not know the exact numbers of that because the anthropological
survey of India had done a study long back and we also did not have a recent census for us so we
do not have a good now idea about what numbers but the last time I think it was some
nine odd bands of all groups of Shampen's and most of them are Heldar Radhar is not all of them

(01:27:35):
and maybe one or two bands actually do some bartering with the with the main landers who have
settled there so these main landers also have a nice history because they are all ex-Rmi people
or ex-difference people who were actually settled there by Indira Gandhi and during that
government and it has continued over the period of year so it's also many India where you can

(01:27:57):
find people from all over India actually is staying there because they were all descendants of
army people or some of the army people themselves right now so the lies for them have
been also been very complicated because they are not hunter gatherer so they is very hard for
them to not survive on that island which is very hard for people coming from mainland because

(01:28:21):
they do not grow the same amount of food or which are usually accustomed off so they have to
clear a lot of forest and make this forest for themselves and over a period of time they have
settled down with having orchards or some kind of farms and things like that and over a period of time
I think after tsunami what we have seen that there is a lot of ingression of water in the coastal

(01:28:47):
areas and hypothesis that we have is these coastal areas had a lot of fruiting trees that
for example pandanus which is a very popular food or fruit for the monkeys that are there even
it's very popular for fruit in southeastern cuisine you get a lot of pandanus in food so

(01:29:07):
pandanus was something which is very much important for monkeys which are away from the humans
right now as well and coconut was something which was again very important because again coconut
will usually be in the coastal areas if they are growing by themselves so after a point of time a lot
of these plants were actually washed out by tsunami and also there were a lot of food that was grown

(01:29:33):
by people so for the fallout effect of one going from one place to the other for them to survive
they went on going very close to the people who were growing things very close to the forest
or growing very close to the coastal areas so they got easy access for the monkeys got very easy

(01:29:53):
access to go into any of these places and have a nice understanding of how to I would say
exploit the conditions for their own benefit and they are extremely smart about it so
of course they need to survive so for them it doesn't it's not a morality or a thing

(01:30:14):
but for people there it also becomes a livelihood issue so that is something I think that has
contributed a lot about conservation but again things are not that easy there are way many more
factors which we found out by talking to people which maybe we can also talk about as we go forward

(01:30:34):
with this or I can also address this as we go
one one question you mentioned some morphological sort of similarities or differences
do we do we know when sort of this island population was separated from the mainland was it with

(01:30:56):
the separation of of those islands from the mainland when it happened geologically or was it later on
yeah so we do not know when exactly the species or suspicious split from each other but we know
that the lands started separating from each other in Pleistocene which is long long back but we

(01:31:21):
do not really know when two when did these monkeys were started being very different from each other
and we have done a very small genetic analysis of this as well so we thought that these monkeys
will be genetically closer to say somatron population which is very close to it but we did it with

(01:31:43):
mitochondrial DNA so we found out that actually the genes were more closer to the java population
but java is quite far from that place it's mostly in the central I wouldn't say there is
anything in central about Indonesia but it's more about that part of I mean quite far from

(01:32:04):
the island itself so that was surprising although I wouldn't say I would take this
with a little pinch of salt because mitochondrial DNA is not always the best way to go about so we might
need to also look at nuclear DNA which we haven't so some of the mysteries are still unsought I would
say and it would be good to look at it from that perspective however there is another maqq

(01:32:28):
in somatra I mean same maqqats maqqat the facipular is simuli and what we found out is that morphologically
they are very very similar and I don't know what genetically how close or separate they are
should not be very different but again that's only speculation at this point of time but simulu and

(01:32:50):
these umbroses like ours are very very close also morphologically with the colors so when I say
morphologically I would say color rather than any size differences or anything per se but there are
very but there are similarities which you can really see when you see a long tail maqqat and you can
say okay this is a long tail maqqat because they have certain characteristics in their faces and

(01:33:12):
on their top of their heads is a lot like nice I would say moha kind of a hairstyles some of them
have got like a spike that goes along with a lot of subficies and which is also common in most
of the long tail maqqat and usually the pictures that you see from bali or kairan they have a nice
notch on the top of their head so again morphologically speaking I would say colors are very

(01:33:37):
different from each other but genetically I'm not I don't think I have enough data to actually talk
about how different they are genetically I wanted to ask um there's a lot of talks right about this
port being built in nekoberna what do you think about it and what is the impact going to be on

(01:34:00):
the monkeys and the people going forward because I think the port is something a lot of people are
also objecting to one obviously I think it is going to change a lot of things environmentally and
it's still a very environmentally fragile region so um what is the chance of that port coming up and
what are the impacts going to be for it for everything even marine and land and everyone right I

(01:34:23):
think that's a that's a nice debate that is going on and anyone I think who has been on the island
for long enough in terms of looking at the ecology of it they would know that it's a really problematic
thing to have I mean of course the chances are really high but there's a lot of opposition also

(01:34:43):
so we do not know where the world condition it isn't but of course a lot of people including a lot
of ecologists have talked about it because the place where it is supposed to be has a lot of
it is not the most ecologically sensible place to make such a big project coming along it's a
turtle I mean it's a fantastic turtle nesting place for leatherback turtles it has a fantastic

(01:35:09):
places for a lot of different species like Niko Parmigapod which is also endemic species to that
particular island and nowhere else so there are other not a lot of and perhaps the what we do not
absolutely talk about is the amount of botanical heritage that is going to be lost I mean the amount

(01:35:30):
of trees that are estimated to be cut down is humongous I mean that from lacks of trees are going
up fell down and which is at this point of time when the world is going through the climate crisis
like this it's unthinkable to do that when in terms of monkeys it's going to be hard to say but
what we have understood from case studies everywhere else is that it's obviously going to

(01:35:56):
increase the human munkup conflict and because the land is going to be cleared out and when the
land is going to be cleared out there is more coming together of monkeys and people together so
that can lead to a lot of different problems when it comes to human life by life negative
interactions conflict might not be the right word but negative interactions having said that

(01:36:19):
we do not know what it also instills in stores when it comes to the health part of it because
we have seen as much as we go forward with cutting the trees and going next to next to the
populations of wild animals we are also exposing ourselves to different microbes which
would create a lot of issues when it comes to pandemics for for having said that I mean we have

(01:36:42):
seen that in Africa and we are we have also seen that in a globally when it speaks speaking about
endemics and the way and so epidemics and also the pandemics that we are looking at it has
increased way more after so that is one way of course and also the scale of it is humongous I mean
the scale and the support of that support that requires this project needs is so big it cannot

(01:37:09):
it's very unfathomable for anyone who is there because there it needs to be
there's some 20 K people I think I might be totally wrong I'm not able to get the right numbers
at this point of time but it will be huge numbers from some tens of thousands to a million
of people actually getting there for the first phase or for phases after phases and to support

(01:37:33):
that project there needs to be huge amount of population that needs to be supported on this island
but as we said before island island is a very small place it can only sustain certain people
and unfortunately the animals do not vote so we will not be able to think very deeply for them
and of course and and it comes to economy of it and we know that economy is mostly about

(01:37:59):
infrastructure these days rather than the great economy that we talk about so much
so those are some of the things and then again the resources or the carrying capacity of this
island I severely doubt it will hold or something of that scale and also having said that the
maybe the locals would be happy to certain locals are not the indigenous there's a lot of

(01:38:22):
debates about whether the indigenous population were actually talked or had people had a discussion
with them whether their land will be taken or not so there is a lot of controversies around that
also about people about the tribes tribal people saying that their voices were not we heard
properly which is which again would be super wrong because they are the original inhabitants of

(01:38:47):
that place so there's a lot that going on along and also if you that's my say in this is that
the skill that you require to run a place smoothly like this that skill is not there with the
island population right now so again the island population as we have seen elsewhere the people

(01:39:08):
has to be brought from other places and the people who are already living on the island might not
get the jobs they really would like to have but again the land will have to be compensated and all
those things so it's it's a I would say it's a fallacy or it's a it's a really a problematic thing
for my animal I would say that it is going to come out like that and I agree with a lot of

(01:39:34):
things that have been told against it like what punkage, sex area and other people who have been
working on this for a really long time and has given very detailed report about it has mentioned
very well that the problems of these whole island and we should not forget that it's also
a very prone to earthquakes and it's an extremely prone to earthquakes and that may or may not be

(01:40:01):
very suitable for making an infrastructure of that scale on that island as well so there are a lot
of different ways of looking at things but if you ask for my opinion I would say it is only going to
be bad for the people who are living there and also for the ecology of that place for sure

(01:40:22):
and I think you mentioned sort of that the population being impacted and human animal conflicts
increasing and we have I think we have evidence from like especially China where you know species like

(01:40:42):
white headed lungors they only just remain in patches between farmland and human habitation
we definitely definitely don't want that to happen as well here where it just becomes this
in-bred population as well and do you do you find or do you know if the people who are building

(01:41:13):
this or people who are taking this up are they in consultation with scientists are they engaging
scientists are they talking to scientists are they tracking some data or anything like that do you
know what we know of right now is they had a commissioned a few scientists to go there and get some

(01:41:35):
information out there and I wouldn't say there is a continuous dialogue which needs to be there
when it comes to a scale of or a construction of this sort because when there is a lot of opposition
to something you need you need to sit down and see if you can really rectify or you know make people
think okay this is what we're doing is for you and there is not going to be enough harm but

(01:41:59):
having said that there is a clear indication of that of KU need to fell at least two million or two
hundred some two lakh trees or something like that even more than that maybe I'm even this number
might also be less so having said that you need to have a constant dialogue with people who are
having the points against you which are valid points and but that has not been happening for a

(01:42:24):
long long time and it seems like with certain ideas or certain data from certain scientists
has gotten to this peak for to the people who are policymakers of this and they're not really
following it up with other discussions and continuous open ended discussions or transparent
discussions as we go on so I would think it's not really very transparent at this point of time how

(01:42:47):
much consultation is it is happening or how much people are actually being consulted who have been
on this place for a long time so yeah I wanted to ask about when you mentioned about the little
Nikobar and you know how the people are not complaining about the monkey problem there is it because

(01:43:07):
the indigenous tribes there are still hunter-gatherers are they are they actually farming or are they
only hunter-gatherers and is that why there is less conflict there because the monkeys are not coming
so again the it could be also that they are do not have the data of people complaining or not I
do not know if it has increased but that's what the pattern we have seen is the people from the

(01:43:29):
indigenous community really do not have any much problem with the monkeys at all because they
have been living together for a long time and very long time and I do not know which whom
of them were the first to actually be on the island to be honest having said that they're not

(01:43:49):
hunter-gatherers person the Nikobar is tribe is not very hunter-gatherers so they grow their coconut
farms and they'll do a lot of fishing so these two things are very important for them and they
use a lot of resources which are already being found so that's for example pandanus is very
important for them which was also important for the monkeys coconut is important for them coconut
was very important for the monkeys as well but they didn't use to sell this because they used to

(01:44:14):
use it for consumption for consumption they might not be enough deficit even if the monkeys are
eating it but if you're trying to sell this and there is since there are no markets and there is no
no proper incentives for the farmers so the people who are actually growing it commercially say on
great Nikobar island or kachal they are facing this problem way more because commercially it becomes

(01:44:37):
a problem for their livelihood to you know be impacted by that but for Nikobar is they can actually
they know how to live with the land and they know they have their own problems of course the problems
are not blocked because of course they are also what Nikobar is a little bit more as I say more
estimated with the mainlanders so they also need an education they are in the mainstream of education

(01:45:02):
health care and things like that so of course there are those problems are there in
between Nikobar as well and perhaps some economy also perhaps as we go forward with this they also
would like to be more economically sustainable for themselves but having said that whether the
problem is because of monkeys is I do not think so because when it comes to livelihood that is not

(01:45:25):
really getting impacted a lot by the monkeys only it's more about the infrastructure and what
other services that are provided to them from the administration and from the government itself
yeah and I think the every one of us should stay with that that thought for for a minute there because

(01:45:47):
I think that is you described it beautifully where you know the Nikobar is and the monkeys they
are basically sharing the same resource so if you're not wanting to exploit that resource as long
as nobody's wanted to exploit that resource they shouldn't have like nature has that for everyone

(01:46:08):
like that amount for everyone both the monkeys and the humans to survive and that has been the case
for like hundreds of thousands of years until we decided to farm and tie it to our livelihood
and economy be it butter be it now with you know money exchange and anything else
that is a very interesting thought that is a very interesting thought

(01:46:31):
say that I'm not yeah I'm not against the people who have because they were also kind of put here
by the government and we have to really think about it because the other pop the great Nikobar is not
I mean only the name is great because the services and the the facilities that is there for people
are not even basic for that matter and that's I can understand some of the anger that they have

(01:46:56):
towards the administration that nobody's there to listen to them to be honest I mean because
they it's problematic for them because they have been always dependent on the mainland supplies
or whatever because the you cannot grow certain things the hospital are in really bad shapes
this education is bad and you cannot get half of the things which you can get usually on any

(01:47:20):
other part of the island you cannot get at times with the ship is not there because of that whether
you you may not get potatoes rice wheat sugar tea and all those things which are kind of
stapled and it's not that they are accustomed of living there with you know whatever you get
from the island because they need a difference so that's I totally understand that their anger is

(01:47:41):
towards that and with the but the idea is to build the basics for them first rather than bringing
the whole big project which may or may not again address the same I mean the systemic issues that
are already being there yeah I think it has very little to no chance of addressing those systemic

(01:48:03):
issues the the more chance again is is of you know filling the coffers of those people who are
funding it and you know also government will have some strategic advantages maybe maybe not but
the cost to the ecology is far greater than that and I think all of us feel the same way there as well

(01:48:26):
so yeah it's it's terrible and and I think part of talking about your story of how you got
interested in in monkeys what do you think about the general perception that people have
word monkeys and the conflict that and the I mean how people usually perceive monkeys I think you
really wanted to you know touch on this topic so yeah absolutely I think it's very similar to how

(01:48:54):
we associate ourselves with monkeys in the rest of India as well because we take these values
wherever we go and no matter which island it is in so it's I think it's a very dichotomy
almost about how we really perceive monkeys even on the islands sometimes we river them and they
we give them prosadum from the temples that is coming up and we feed them thinking it is a you

(01:49:18):
know it's a what do you have bias thing to do and it's a good thing it's a then you will go to have
and you will be in Hanuman absolutely monkeys or for a long long time very long time absolutely
but when it comes to the monkeys so you want monkeys to come to you only on your terms but when
the monkeys are coming to actually come to your kitchen garden to get some of your tomatoes back

(01:49:44):
then that is a problem so then that is the time you will be so there's a lot of different
I would say opinions from different peoples on the island so for the farmers it's understandable
they are not very happy with the monkeys but again I would say there's a lot of systemic issues
like lack of market lack of storage spaces for any of your crops and also they'll they'll be very

(01:50:10):
far off from their farms so the time and the transport is not great so by the time they teach their
farm in the morning that is too late because by the time monkeys would actually go and
raid and eat everything so even if you have to protect a place you need certain guards for that
they do not have the access to certain things and they are not very well off to also even with

(01:50:34):
even if they are well off they are not they do not have enough you know labor to actually you know
use them for guarding and all so the the the the perception towards monkeys will definitely go
more negative as we go along but having said that there's a lot of
unmeasured laws that is also happening by other species like rats,

(01:50:58):
parrots and other animals that kind of also damages a lot of things that are already grown
but monkeys are something that is extremely visible in out of there and there's always a notion
of having that monkeys are naughty and they are always up to some mischief so that gives them a
bad ripover of also that okay you know so people think that okay everything that is wrong might be

(01:51:23):
it's like monkey around kind of things or this is this all of these words have a big ramifications of
how we perceive each now each animal for that matter and how so monkeys again we also worship them
but we also find an extremely mischievous so any problem that we have is definitely going the
lot of blame is going to go to them but again it's very varied to be honest again we also know that

(01:51:49):
the shampoos who are the indigenous population and do not mix very much with the outsiders they
also hunt monkeys that it has been noted from the anthropological survey of India that they also
hunt monkeys at times and it is part of their food as well because they are hunter-gatherers
so hunting is a big part of their lives and you do not have much

(01:52:12):
mammals going around on the island so monkeys are perhaps the largest mammal and you have the
largest animal per se would be the saltwater crocodile I mean I would say on the land at least
even if the crocodile is on both sides but if they are still on the land so I will consider it like that

(01:52:33):
so again from their perspective again it's very different than their kind of they have grown together
in many ways and but the people who have been from the main landers they are usually that we have
seen is not very happy with the monkeys and there are a lot of different opinions about
taking the monkeys away and put them in other island bring Hanuman Lungur and maybe they will be scared

(01:52:57):
to do this so whatever they can think of their idea that they have captured from back in
India main land India which has been say used in particular order to get rid of certain
problems of you know monkey and human negative interactions so they are trying to bring those as
well but those things really wouldn't work on the island because they haven't really really worked

(01:53:20):
on the main land itself because of course there's the monkey the super smart none of the
measures will ever last forever so they would know how to you know how to use the group holes in
any of the measures and after a point of time they would be back to doing that even if you move one
group from this to that the other group will come back and take so the coming back to the

(01:53:45):
perception of it people might be really angry over the monkeys and even certain times they are the
ones who are feeding the monkeys as well some of them really like to have the monkeys around because
it's also kind of entertainment which and you do not have too many entertainments on the island
so some of some of the people it's also good to look at the monkeys and look at their

(01:54:05):
the different kind of things that they do and they feed the monkeys which is usually the start
of every problem when we see the because there has to be certain boundaries between humans and
wildlife for the for the betterment of both sides because of course once you it's not that monkeys
think that okay you are giving doing me a favor it can see that is a food I gonna eat the food

(01:54:31):
it is easy to accessible and I mean and that is the most like polarizing things even for
humans like every species out there food is the most important resource for everyone so of course
they will come to a source of food you know absolutely and also we are very I mean very we are

(01:54:53):
excellent and when it comes to garbage management of course so so that has also led to a huge amount
of human and monkey conflict because again the the monkeys are very active throughout the day so
of course what you need is protein as well as sugar and a lot of times what you do is empty

(01:55:14):
you know throw your garbage which an human food is full of fat and sugar for example we have
seen the monkeys you know there is a nice coconut you know there and there is a packet of bobbin
around it so they will usually go to the bobbin first and then the coconut because they have
figured out okay this is much sugar this will last me longer so they can perhaps to use more of

(01:55:38):
a time to do something else but again having said that coconut is usually the something that they
favor so but like do you think but it's not just the sugar but it is also the taste like I mean even
as humans if you give us a salad and you give us bourbon biscuits most humans will go for the bourbon
biscuits I do not know how their taste perception is to be honest I mean but I would really say but

(01:56:04):
because it might be so I mean sugar does taste well so I mean that's the whole point of also people
at track getting attracted to a sugar in the first place and of course I think it is safe to assume
that of course it might actually taste really better because they obviously go for ripe fruits
ripe other you know ripe bananas ripe jack fruits ripe and and really tender coconuts so I would say

(01:56:31):
definitely I mean I would say that the fruit the smell of the fruit and the taste of it the
is the that the is today's is tarnish I don't know how that's a yesterday smell that is there the
fragrance that actually attracts the monkeys towards them for sure for that helps in the seed
propagation of that but also you know the monkeys are attracted towards it because of course it is

(01:56:55):
sweeter and it may be just tastes better at as well and like we're not taking much more of
your time we should sort of try to close but one last question that I sort of had is what's
what do you see is as the sort of future scope of research after that after the body of research

(01:57:18):
that you have done what are the future scopes of research that is going on with the monkeys
and like how important do you place that to for those ecosystems in the political and sort of
economical environment I mean I would to be honest I think I have a lot of respect for the people

(01:57:39):
who worked who are still working there because there are a lot of colleagues of mine who are still
working there and they have been there through the tumultus time of being there because it's not
easy getting permissions from that place you have to apply for permissions each year and it is up to the
understanding of forest department whether they want to renew it or not and there's a lot of work

(01:58:01):
that is going on on the behaviors of these monkeys and the understanding of humans as well as the
monkeys in the larger scale and to be honest it's not easy to be on that island if you're coming
in fear of I mean your system of life on the mainland because you won't get any in I mean when
during our time we didn't have any internet or any proper network connection which I mean we

(01:58:24):
had regional which used to be very bad now it seems that they have internet but again they do not
have proper transport healthcare education entertainment to for them to really do something about
it and for people coming from outside might again get very claustrophobic for them to be on that
island for a long long time but I know people who have been working there for for quite some time

(01:58:48):
and it's very very important because again the whole world is in transition and island is
island biobiography makes it even more vulnerable for any change to be made there for that matter
I think that is very crucial point sorry to interrupt because we studied in New Zealand I'm still

(01:59:08):
living in New Zealand living in an island nation just makes you realize how much more vulnerable
island ecosystems can be and that's the great point how you how you sort of put it there as well
beautifully absolutely and it's also not something which is it's not a place which is also I would
say developed in case of you know the basic amenities that people have so it's important for people

(01:59:35):
to actually go on and keep on working on these things you know the landscape changes very rapidly
not only because of human activity but also because the climate change is extremely impactful on
the islands and the submergence of certain places are increasing every now and then and also the
places very close to Indonesia and all those things and of course this also a hotbed of lot of

(01:59:58):
different activities so all of these will obviously give a lot of changes on these islands so it needs
to be studied from an objective point of view where we know that whatever we do will have an impact
on a larger scale even if the work is on a small even if the change is on a smaller scale
because the domino effect of it is really really huge when it comes to the island because

(02:00:20):
everything is in a small space with a very small carrying capacity of having people for example
drinking water again is a big problem so I don't know if there's a millions of people coming
on that island what is going to be the case when it comes to drinking water and who is going to be
facing the problem so so there needs to be a constant understanding and habitation of

(02:00:42):
understanding of their knowledge and research and the whole landscape for that matter it's not
an easy landscape to work with but there are people who are going to work with and I think there's
a new project also that is coming up from certain organizations where certain people will look at
the long term effects of certain impacts of these projects that are going to come up which makes

(02:01:05):
me think that these projects are going ahead with no matter even if there is enough
opposition for it so there are projects now which in which people are trying to look at what is
the impact of everything that is going to happen on different species or on the landscape level
on that island so it needs to be studied from a landscape level absolutely which is actually not

(02:01:28):
very much that is done on the islands I can understand why but somehow if it is possible it needs to
and it needs to be a continuous effort yeah absolutely I think that was a very interesting session
thank you so much for hearing us your time and your insight then both of us and me we have learned

(02:01:49):
so much about make about the problems at the monkeys and everything else so thank you for your time
and the episode is live so you know you can see it everyone who is watching I hope you had the
same experiences as so thank you partner now Kinchik will my pleasure yes yeah thank you so much thank you

(02:02:15):
yeah that was that was very very interesting and very informative as you said and I think these
the species like these macaques we we take them for granted up to a point you know they're everywhere

(02:02:37):
they're in Houston as part of a saying and yeah until it becomes until it is right in our face
one of the things that I think I read about at least in his paper was that even though there's
so much in his face they have they have the tolerance that they do not want to kill the species
even they're in the face but opposed to other countries like at least I think because we still

(02:03:02):
have some kind of reverence but in other places like especially in New Zealand with the posters where
you know they're the most visible you're like just kill kill kill other places conservation is a
lot of killing and that I think Nix India very different that there is more tolerance than other
areas because we kind of have some kind of reverence associated with different animals as gods

(02:03:26):
yes that is that is the I think that plays an important you know important role in that whole
perception thing as well but I mean Southeast Asia in general like monkeys are seen as a nuisance
you know as well Bali in Thailand all these places um there are certain places like I mean in Bali there's

(02:03:53):
actually like a monkey forest it's called the word something forest and yeah and you can go inside
and the monkeys are just like very friendly and they're all over you so there are I think different
perspectives where sometimes monkeys are absolute nuisance and sometimes just like how I think
part are pointed out like like you want the monkeys at your convenience so like you know well

(02:04:15):
this convenient for you you like monkeys but where it is inconvenient for you you do not like monkeys
and that is I think a very human thing because we want everything else to be on our terms instead of
trying to understand their terms as well I think that's and I really like when he sort of said
mentioned the sharing of resources versus exploiting the resources I think that's what creates

(02:04:41):
the problem right yes when you're just sharing the resources I think nature has enough for both species
and that it has been like that for you know 100,000 years or whatever amount of time um yeah it's
such sharing versus exploiting it depends on yeah I think also what happens as you know when he

(02:05:05):
talks about the indigenous species those have been coexisting with the monkeys for a long time it
is just that the changing things that are happening one with maybe the export import with all the
ports coming in and everything this is going to cause more problems it's not the coexistence in
itself was something that has been happening for thousands or thousands of thousands of years but

(02:05:26):
evolving pattern of our usage and you know what we want our demand and supply everything is changing
which is probably impacting the animals more just because we are changing it's not the animals
that are changing but our land use and our you know wants and needs are changing yes yes I think there

(02:05:48):
was a comment from someone on our on our shark thing that we can address quickly um so it just says
sharks are being caught incidentally or opportunistically in India they are seldom targeted and then he
continues to say and shark export has blanket ban already in India I think I think what they're

(02:06:16):
trying to convey is India is playing nice but I mean that this is like all of this that happens is
under the table under under the line sort of kind of things um shark fishing or anything like that

(02:06:37):
even if that's true you know the the bands and things like that most of the things unless there's a
super huge expose like Mike Pandey did with you know we know it's not it's not just that even whoever
has commented this I would just like to tell them that I've actually spoken to a shark researcher

(02:06:58):
who has actively gone to these markets and I think we've spoken about this a few episodes back
where she had to take special permission to even take photos because they were not comfortable
with all the sharks there India is one of the one of the big shark meat exporters and people go
into the deep deep waters four five days out to get sharks because all the sharks have been depleted

(02:07:23):
around the islands like the underman islands are underman islands are one of the biggest places
where this happens and even in the mainland around Kerala and other places this happens
where they actually go into the waters and this is why the the impacts have been seen in
underman another place because the sharks have been depleted people now eat groupers and rays

(02:07:47):
because the fish are depleting and there's not active fish you know what you say recovery
so they're not we don't have the proper fish that they used to actually have so the shark fishing is
not illegal in India some fish are said to be illegal but how can you say okay don't catch these
four fish and catch these four sharks because when you net you net all the sharks together so either

(02:08:10):
you ban sharks completely it is again like the shark nets you know it is it is a very convenient
solution to say that okay let's protect these sharks and let's not protect these sharks but if
you're going to allow for shark fishing in itself it is going to turn up and estimate all kinds of
shark population and we do need those kind of regulations in place so I think you might think

(02:08:32):
that this doesn't happen in in India but it is the same thing like you know how most people think
that because cows are very sacred in India in India we don't consume beef but we are one of the
biggest beef exporters so we're we're a big hypocritical economy or a big hypocritical country
as I would say I would say like nothing different than any of any of the other economies out there

(02:08:53):
but yes like as he pointed as the commenter pointed out shark shark export as indeed banned
shark fins is banned since 2015 but then you know there are illegal fisheries illegal
export because there is a demand and you have to serve that demand somehow so people will find

(02:09:16):
ways of you know but there is a 2025 Manga Biri port which says that we are in guess on to around
we are the third largest shark fishing nation globally third largest shark fishing nation
and if that's all of that is happening like illegally and under the table that just boggles my mind

(02:09:41):
to if that's happening illegally that just boggles my mind to how much resourceful these people are
and they're just fueling this huge huge industry yeah but thanks for the comment
I hope we've answered your question a little bit and we'll put some resources in in the comments

(02:10:04):
in the pinned comments as well some reading resources there just to make sure that you know the
full picture is being presented but I think we should draw close to today's episode now
make now what do you think definitely I think it was a great episode and we just have obviously

(02:10:30):
one ending question which topic did you like the most what do you think about community engagement
and what ways do you see yourself making small changes like we would love to hear
when you say change begins from us what are the changes that at an individual level or a community

(02:10:51):
level we can strive to do every day that would be great and we would love to feature some of those
comments and stories in one of our next episodes as well but other than that don't forget to
subscribe and follow on all our social media handles all of them will be in the description and
they're on your screen as well do leave a comment and consider rating us on any of the podcast

(02:11:19):
platforms if you're recording if you're listening to a recorded version of this show but that's
it for today and we will see you next Sunday same time same channel have a very good one guys
bye

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