Humans vs Orcas

Orcas ramming boats: play or revenge? We also cover California’s kelp crisis, a koala vaccine breakthrough, & surprising new species. Don’t miss the disturbing shark meat trade!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to the Wild Bits Show. I'm Megna and I'm open one new.

(00:08):
And we have got a great show planned for you. Obviously we'll first be talking about
our headline topic which is Humans vs Orcas and it's their reason because Orcas are
ramming boats again and scientists nothing it's a deal. And along with this we're also going

(00:28):
to talk about the kelp crisis in California after the blobs. Suppose Blob how this crisis
isn't going away and if we have time we will be covering a few more topics which probably
ups will be talking about. Cool we also have a story from Argentina where a captive elephant

(00:53):
has been finitely freed so that's a big win for Argentina I would say and then we also have
a story from Australia where a vaccine to save gualas from the media has been approved recently.

(01:14):
We also have a couple of new species discovery which we will mention always good to see some new
species there and yeah as Megna said a few other topics if we have the time.

(01:40):
So we're going to talk about the headline topic. So Orcas Humans vs Orcas what exactly is happening.

(02:00):
Iberian Orcas continue ramming boats of Spain's Galicia coast or Galicia now I might be pronouncing
this wrong with two vessels damaged and cruise rescued on August 30. This marks the latest of hundreds
of incidents 2020 involving an estimated 40 or cup pod consistently targeting the rudders while

(02:23):
several boats have been sunk and many disabled no human injuries are reported even in one of the
incidents so far from 2020. While several experts assert that these attacks are not an attack but
likely a learned game for the highly intelligent animals if Orcas truly wanted to sink boats the

(02:44):
easily could. Most interactions typically occurred in the deep waters for the main food source
that is bluefin tuna however recent shallow coastal history incidents suggest that the
pod is exploring new areas potentially linked to observed predation on octopus in shallow
waters a theory clearly needing further research. So what do you think about this story?

(03:10):
I think this is like I think we have discussed this before as well where the brain size has got to
do a lot with how animals interact with their surroundings. I mean certainly we know in the case of
humans we need our sort of physical needs fulfilled but also our mental needs fulfilled as well so

(03:37):
I think this clearly shows that I did a film on kias that they're they're an alpine parrot from
New Zealand the case was the same there where they needed play or like some kind of play fighting in
order to gain some crucial life skills as well so I think that also could be going on here

(04:05):
because there is a orca pod which sort of rams into like broken off ice slabs where like a seal is
resting on top of it and it just rams treats a wave to watch the seal off those ice slabs and then
attack attack and drown it so it could be a number of things the most likely in my

(04:34):
my view would be as the article says it's some kind of game through which they're learning some
sort of life skill that is important for that particular pod. I think it's an important point that
you raised I think the bigger the brain more entertainment you need which is what I feel like if

(04:55):
you can think and you can actually assess and analyze then your brain is functioning and it's
running a lot so you need something to keep it occupied which is probably why we've seen even
different. Yeah I mean if if if you're running the if the brain is running for all those
when it needs to run like when we'd actually need the brain to run like assess the situation as you

(05:20):
were saying if it's running at full part then then rest of the time it has that still has that power
but it doesn't have anything to do so that that creates that emptiness in the brain which is
terrible. Yeah I agree. I agree. We as humans know it like having nothing to do with the most

(05:41):
terrible thing you know. I think we've seen that even in the octopus teacher that the octopus
plays with the fish and the dolphins also we know that they play around with fish sometimes
and the orcas obviously again very intelligent creatures. I sometimes think it's I don't know if
it's actually like a curse or a blessing to have a big brain because I would rather be a jelly

(06:03):
fish and just float around not having to think about anything just float and then get eaten by a
turtle one day like no worries at all like imagine. The brain gives gives the orcas and in like
humans we definitely know the edge a bigger brain gives us but I don't know like animals it

(06:28):
doesn't really make sense to me particularly like I mean yeah I'm not against anyone else having
a bigger brain as long as humans have the biggest but like it makes sense for humans
because oh I am I am like like a sexist you're a humanist. I love my species but like

(06:50):
um bigger brain for humans makes complete sense in terms of in in evolutionary terms because we don't
have any other defense so we have to use our brain to be able to survive in that landscape.
Yes but I think the brain is what has consular destruction right. If we did not have

(07:12):
if we did not have big brains if we if our evolutionary cycle never brought us to be
humans and we stayed as apes or whatever kind of monkey species we were going to be we would not
have created the destruction we would have still be in some either amazonian rainforest or somewhere
in Africa or some forest somewhere but we wouldn't have spread like the plague we wouldn't have

(07:36):
been like eight billion people. Yes and also and also for eight billion people and the kind of
entertainment they need especially for this you know restless brain which is why we have like movies
we have you know Netflix and other things we have zoos we have roller coasters we have
corners we have like thousands of things and then we obviously have social media and the

(07:59):
tomb is rolling this is only because of our brain and it can not just sit quiet but having said
that obviously if we have such a tough problem sitting quiet with our brain imagine the animals
that are in the water or elsewhere and if they feel restless what should they be doing so they
probably find their source of entertainment but just before the show I think oops we were talking

(08:24):
about this thing that it could also be that now it is a game but it started off as something else
so initially they said that the orcas were doing this because there was a um a
a matriarch orca there was a mother orca that was killed by one of the boats and then her
pod took revenge by destroying the runners of multiple boats obviously they did not know which

(08:48):
boat had hit her but the stories that floated at least five years back whether this was revenge
because they felt a lot of grief and orcas are a pod animal so any pod animal
works as a team so if you take one out then it probably like hurts everyone so you know like
wherever there are pod animals like orcas or dolphins or even on land like works like they're all

(09:12):
pack animals they're pod animals so they they care for each other like they don't look at each other
as individual species um yeah I think um pack animals wolves lions on land
dogs wild dogs um and then orcas dolphins um in in the sea I mean orcas are cold wolves of the sea

(09:38):
as well but here pack animals to have that benefit of uh having like a herd brain as well like a
pack brain uh which sort of functions together um and it has advantage over like larger animals where
you know um a pack of wild dogs can easily take down like a big buffalo or a pack of wolves can

(10:01):
take down like prey which is much much much bigger than them and that's where I think also
um the bigger brain comes in as well you have to kind of like scheme and
device new ways to um get to that end result as well so yeah I think the bigger brain um definitely

(10:23):
isn't like whether it is for it's for a game or it's revenge or whatever it is I think we
can agree that that it stems from them having like a bigger brain and sort of um having either to
fulfill some kind of revenge plot which I think is unlikely but um or or some kind of you know um

(10:48):
so it says it says that it started like like they believe that it may have started with revenge on
this article but the articles that came out at that time now I don't know if you guys have ever heard
that story but um you know there were these monkeys that had these colors around the next and
there was this experiment where there were at least like five or six monkeys kept in this room

(11:10):
there was a pole in the middle of the room and they had bananas kept on top so obviously
monkeys which aren't climbed the pole to get to the bananas but as soon as one monkey climbed up they
would actually zap and all of the monkeys felt the electric zap in their colors so initially they kept
trying to climb up the pole but when they kept getting zapped they realized that oh it is because

(11:32):
when they try to climb up the pole they get zapped so they stopped climbing up the pole so then
what the scientists there was they took one old monkey out and they replaced it with one new monkey
and the new monkey tried to climb the pole but the other monkeys pulled him down and started beating him
up and the new monkey didn't even know what his fault was he didn't even know because there was no

(11:52):
zapping nothing but they just assumed that you know if you club go up everybody gets zapped and then
slowly and eventually the scientists started um you know substituting all the old monkeys with new
monkeys so at one point of time there were five new monkeys all the old monkeys had gone but still
they were scared of climbing up the pole and if any new monkey tried they would beat him up so it is

(12:17):
possible and this is this is a lot that happens in you know in humans also like how superstitions fly
like someone told something and then we believe that something and then we carried
or you know onwards without questioning it so it might be similar with the archives that it may
have started as a revenge plot but it didn't get circulated within the archipelago and then now

(12:39):
it just is a game because what started as revenge is now a game yeah could be could be and I
think I was just reading through the article at the end of the article I think maybe I should look
this person up and you know be you know share your thoughts with her because it says this is not

(13:01):
a whale problem it's a people problem rose concludes they lived there that's their home 24
we just sailed through it we're in their living room we are the guests it's the cause it is just the
cause of doing business so I think this sort of echoes very very clearly or very like is similarly
your thoughts as well on animal and their rights and things like that so yeah I think you two should

(13:29):
be friends because your thoughts are so like oh yeah so the thing is that it oops is a
humanist I'm an animalist so if you give me you want to choose a human or an animal in this
scenario I would choose the animal and between me and oops he would choose the human like you saw

(13:49):
with the discussion so that is why just because she's literally said it's the it's the killer
wills that live in the water it's their home oops think that we have similar
be huge that is that is the truth oops yeah so yeah I think I think that that is that is the thing

(14:13):
like see we even if we wrenched to see we would just I mean I was about to say that even if we
went to see we would stay within like near the shore but that's not true like 60,000 years ago
humans set out from Africa and reached Australia of all places still you know makes makes me go

(14:36):
crazy thinking about it how did we manage that and not once like there's evidence that you know
they might have done it twice or tries you know some people ended up in Papua New Guinea some the
people that ended up in Papua New Guinea are some of them are like they went to Australia first
and then came back to Papua New Guinea yeah it's it it just yeah boggles my mind how that happened but

(14:59):
yeah um we have we have been seafaring creatures as well so that's my point basically yeah but I
think for a long time I think as humans we were probably more skilled hundreds of years back
that's what I feel like now the skill set is different obviously maybe coding and all but nobody
can go blindly into the ocean and just look at the side and have a compass and actually find another

(15:23):
country I don't think people are that skilled people now use GPS they have those what do you
go those they that they light up lighthouses no no no the you know they have those guns with these
light fireworks if you're in problem then you can light up yeah flare guns so people have all these

(15:44):
fancy things now but back then there was like stonehenge and pyramids and
mummification all of them being mysteries at this point of time but the skill set was different
at that time let's say that the determination as well the determination like the it's that time
it was harder like in terms of food in terms of transport in terms of clothes in terms of everything

(16:09):
and they used to take these are doers journey of months yeah and and that that's the like when you
mentioned when you mentioned them like orcas exploring or you know just just being poured out of the
mind like the bigger brain comes with these fascinating sort of vestiges because

(16:34):
um so recently recently this was found evidence of this was found but when humans landed in
Australia around like 60 40 to 60 thousand years ago they landed on the sort of north
north coast of Australia and then they covered they went from the north coast they went to

(16:57):
northeast and then they covered till the southeast coast in like thousand years and it was like
group of hundred or 200 humans there was more than enough space to for them to remain in one place
but still from those hundred or 200 or whatever number of humans a group chose to look for another

(17:19):
place look for another place there might have been only 20 or 30 humans in all of those different
settlements but they still chose to go ahead and go somewhere else so I think this
this idea of discovery and wanderlust that how we call it
one that that has always existed in us like see I don't know if it is wanderlust but I think we

(17:43):
were always nomadic and we were hunter-gatherers at one point of time but I mean animals still are but we
we were meant to travel at that point of time we and we were very optimum at that point of time
when we were nomadic so we would exploit an area let it recover and then we would go to another area

(18:04):
exploit that area and let it recover and then we would go to another area and the main culprit
of actually settling down in one place was agriculture that made it possible to have some
source of food all the time next to you so that you could start creating settlements that is when
our population went berserk if we stayed nomadic we would probably be sparsely populated even now

(18:28):
and not be talking like this on a show yeah um we have a discussion question here and I think
it's an important one how should communication be managed so that the public perception does not
lead to negative outcomes for the orcas like stigma or actions and it is actually quite I was just

(18:53):
going to bring this up that in the article it says and you know like the public can see it if
let me just yeah the report strongly warned against attacking the orcas as this
pod is critically endangered and it is illegal to hunt or kill them but some mariners have been
filmed throwing fire crackers at animals among other harmful expenses responses which the

(19:15):
report said was not only ineffective but maybe reinforcing the behavior and increasing the severity
so obviously this will become like a cycle like I hate you you hate me I will hit you back harder
that we do I mean with armies and countries that is exactly what we do and it is possible that the
orcas are playing as the scientists suggest but if you're going to be hurting them then they will

(19:41):
come back for you stronger because they would be like I'm only playing why you're hurting me
and then they would like reinforce and as oops said that you know in Antarctica where they break
the slab it's actually a very calculated move like there's a pack of orcas they come together
they spy hop and see if there's a seal on top of the ice block so they just like come up straight

(20:03):
and see there's a seal on the ice block and then they all go back and then they come back with
the same force and they're very very timed efficiently and then they hit in such a way that there's
a you know a huge splash of water onto the ice and the ice breaks and the seal is rolled off so
that they can eat the seed so orcas are very intelligent so when they're this intelligent obviously

(20:29):
if you're going to attack them it's probably going to be was the reaction yeah yeah and I mean
we don't need necessarily need to create that that kind of stigma I mean we are 8 billion of us
I don't know the exact population of orcas but I'm imagining it's like 100 to 1000 or even 1 million

(20:53):
of our population so yeah we don't need to create unnecessary stigma we all already have that with
various other species so yeah we don't need to need that with orcas as well yeah I just I just

(21:20):
feel like obviously for humans and I can understand like if you have a boat and an animal is attacking
it you want to defend it you mean you want to defend your own boat and you want to get it out of
the situation but if there is a behavior and there's a culture among these animals there might be
more effective solutions somehow than trying to like throw a firecracker at it because that

(21:45):
if you're going to hurt one and it's a part animal it's going to come back at you
and this is something like I think drama carries over in animals I've seen that happen even in dogs
like in packs and all that if you were being in human with one dog then the entire pack also
relates with bucking it you and it doesn't like you so it is possible that the pack behavior or the

(22:06):
the pod behavior is altered by how you treat them true true um yeah I think
all of this things it's very easy to stigmatize it but I think yeah they are like yeah I just

(22:27):
looked at up 50,000 orcas which is like yeah I don't even know what percentage of
as pop up it might be like 0.0000005 or something like that yeah so yeah it just doesn't make any sense
for for us to hurt it yeah and there might be as mehna said some innovative solutions with like

(22:52):
sonar or maybe fitting some speakers and the boats or something like that to just stay away from
each other's path and the thing is that they they clearly um you know say in the article uh that
if the orcas wanted to sink the boat they would so they they are capable enough that they

(23:14):
would know how to flip the boat over you know why would they just go for the rudders they can easily
just like ram from one side and pick the boat up so that it flips but they're not doing that
they're not causing any human injuries they're not causing humans to fall into the water then go
attack them um and we've spoken about this earlier like there's not a single attack on a human
in the wild by an orca uh so it is just it just mostly play for them or even if we say it is

(23:41):
revenge they're going for the rudders but they're not going for the humans they're going for the boat
and probably the boat is their enemy the boat is what they don't like or they enjoy you know like
like like completely destroying the rudders of the boat but they're not going for the humans they're
not toppling the boats off so why are you getting that extreme with how you know with fire crackers and

(24:03):
everything uh if you feel like an orca is nearby and you there should be more solutions to kind of
move away and then start your rudders before they can damage a whole lot and then go away
yeah definitely speaking of that uh Argentinians last captive elephant finally wins her freedom

(24:26):
Argentina has been closing zoos and relocating animals to centuries that is such a good
approach um though moving elephants proved exceptionally challenging Kenya Argentinians
last captive elephant recently made the arduous journey from Mendoza Eco Park are home for 40 years

(24:54):
the global century for elephants in Brazil this 2016 law-mantaded move ended 136 years
of elephant captivity in the nation upon arrival the 13200-pound African elephant what's that in
kilos must be around 6700 i'm guessing if it's a 5,987 for all of us who follow metric um like same people

(25:31):
but yeah uh 5900 around 6000 kilos African elephant joyfully rolled in the red earth and explored
exhibiting behaviors her handlers had never witnessed earlier pelusa and Mary died before transfer
highlighting the immense difficulties and Kenya's truly triumph and journey to freedom

(25:54):
I think this is good uh I also feel like the zoom of step kept her in exceptionally bad circumstances
because that should not happen like I think I think hopes you just have this blind screen where you
imagine zoos to be amazing places for animals no I'm not imagining zoos to be amazing places I'm

(26:18):
but also not like the most terrible place see there are some zoos obviously that have this
what do you call the open with the mode culture like where they have modes and they have huge spaces
to walk and it's all open and they don't have cages and everything but that that is just some zoos
across some countries and even then you're compromising on their territorial behavior and other behaviors

(26:44):
but it is a better living situation for sure but I think in this case obviously the
reading you know whatever you told right now um it seems like the elephant did not have a lot of
space to roam around so as soon as it saw this green art that went crazy or this red earth what did it say

(27:05):
yeah does the red earth yeah the photograph um of the sheriff on screen um the photograph looks
very beautiful as well um and I think this is like what Megna was talking about that's what the
sanctuaries are um there are elephant sanctuaries there are um oh this is from the ecopark sorry

(27:30):
this is from the ecopark that we can see a mode um but the picture is beautiful but yeah I think
um these these sanctuaries I don't know if there is a picture of Kenya in the century or this is
this is her being transferred um wow this this is a big operation and and then let's see if we

(27:54):
find some okay that's that's the handler maybe feeding them okay no there aren't any pictures
in the sanctuary I'll just go down oh yes there is um yeah so this this is like the open space
it's still not Africa but yeah it's it's it's an open space and I think still people would be able to

(28:22):
go see them etc so I think yeah these kinds of zoos makes makes a lot of sense and also since the
since our understanding of how animals interact with um confinement has evolved so should
us zoos I don't I'm not like I am not saying zoos should completely go away because that zoos are a

(28:45):
very uh important I feel like educational tool as well no I I think we've come to this place and
this age where if we have everything technology built then zoos can just have holographic videos or
AI videos now or however you want to take away but if if as a human you don't like to be like you

(29:06):
know you remember in COVID people hated it and they really wanted to just get out of their house
and they felt they got mad they had mental health problems because they were trapped inside just
their own house nothing else just their own house they had resources and everything that access but
they went mad just because they were not allowed to go out so imagine an animal in this freedom why

(29:27):
is it freedom not the same as a human's freedom yeah I mean yeah I I we can sort of
talk about that that part of things but yeah my like I think that that's there is this is one of the
few things that we sort of disagree on I still feel like zoos are wonderful places but yeah

(29:48):
definitely feel like there should be that at least a sort of like more than bare minimum for
humanist we oh sure we we can't provide the natural habitat like fully but we don't even like we
also don't have to like and find them in like tight cages okay okay tell me this can be a middle ground

(30:16):
okay tell me this you saw the eco part picture it was one of those open zoos and then you saw the
sanctuary picture which one did you like better for the elephant definitely the sanctuary I'm
saying like the sanctuary is definitely better but that is what I'm saying like these kinds of
sanctuaries they I'm sure this is somewhere people can visit and people can see these elephants as

(30:39):
well so I think these kinds of sanctuaries or like simulated safari experiences is what you zoos should
turn into rather than being cages that's what I'm saying like even with sanctuaries I think like like
when I went to South Africa once and there's a big big big big culture of private wildlife

(31:04):
sanctuaries of private wildlife areas there so what has happened is that the government gave people
motivation and subsidies to convert their agricultural land into wildlife areas but what happens
with those private sanctuaries is that then they they choose and they have to tell the government if
they have this much area then the government is also said if you have this much area these many

(31:27):
predators go in these many prey species go in and all of that but at the end of the day obviously
there's a fencing so it's not completely natural but it's a huge open space but because it is a
huge open space you kind of decide which animal is more important to you so when I was there so
there were these rohan and sables which are a type of horses that are and deers that are really

(31:52):
expensive so they would keep them in completely different areas and not where the lions were just
so that the lions would eat them my mistake but I remember that there was a giraffe no not a giraffe
an antelope was a problem it had some they thought it was a tumor so they just shorted down and they
fed it to the lions but it turned out to be just grass so it was just having some swallowing

(32:16):
problem so they're like they would only call the wet on the animals if it was an expensive animal
like the lions or the rohan or the sables but not on the inexpensive animals like the antelope of
one of the more common deers so this I think even though you want wildlife sanctuaries you
place like a value on each animal and it's a business at the end of the day you're commodifying

(32:40):
animals just like you would commodify the meat industry definitely no that is that is without a doubt
without a doubt because that is not their natural environment and in order to simulate those natural
environment type things you obviously need a lot of money you need a lot of people doing their

(33:02):
jobs and etc etc so there will be a commercial side to things if even if it's a sanctuary
because you have to pay the people doing the work and you have to maintain with their feeds and
things like their vaccinations etc etc but I feel like that's so much better than it's still

(33:23):
worse than their natural environment in some some ways but in some ways it can be better as well
they don't have to look for food etc etc but yeah at the end of the day it's not their natural
environment but I think the sanctuaries are still much much much better than and I think we have

(33:44):
such a number of zoo animals in the world right now that we don't need to capture new animals from
the wild whatever's born in captivity can sort of fill those gaps if an elephant for example dyes
off or tiger dyes off lion dyes off or any of the other species that there are held in zoos dyes off

(34:06):
so yeah I feel like those animals can continue to exist and continue to educate young minds
like oops right now you saw this article and you saw that the elephant got crazy happy when it
was introduced to the century and we rolled around and let's stay at k-tikers I've never seen

(34:27):
this behavior don't you think that every animal deserves that then being in a zoo like being in
an animal space I do agree I do agree but you and that's my point like we have reached a point in
in and and we don't know actually the pulse we are not connected to the zoo industry as as we say it

(34:50):
but if if somebody was here from the zoo industry they might be able to shed some light but I
feel like zoos are already thinking about a lot of zoos are expanding their habitats into like
bigger enclosures they're having these open air enclosures safaris like simulated safari type things
so I think that's the way to go for zoos they have the land they have all the things that are

(35:15):
necessary see I think at the end of the day a zoo is a business a private century is a business
so they are going to capitalize on their business they have to get profits at the end of the day
yeah yeah I mean so they will look after the animals obviously because the animals are bringing
them money but there's no guarantee of what amount of care and affection will go into it because at

(35:39):
the end of the day they need their profits that is more important than anything else yeah no that
is that is completely correct but I also think there are some very passionate people in the
industry as well even if the corporate overlords are somewhat problematic in most cases

(36:00):
but yeah I think there are some very passionate people I have talked with them I have interacted
with some of them in the industry and I wanted to ask you because you're such a David Attenborough
fanboy did you know that his main job before he started hosting on these shows or started

(36:24):
narrating on these shows was to actually collect animals from wild places for the London zoo if
I'm not wrong that is correct yeah so he was an animal collector and he used to go to these wild
spaces and have these wild stories just so he could bring back an animal from the wild okay

(36:44):
note that from the wild to put into a zoo I how can you find for a such a person how can you find
but but but but see it's about the person who's today like measuring the things of past with a yard
stick of today is a very dangerous game we can't do that okay you're measuring the past by today's

(37:06):
yard stick but that that is not fair on it's it's not like he's done a whole lot now he could
have done a whole lot more in creating awareness but he chose to owe the butterflies look pretty
or this butterfly wants to mate with the other butterfly and then he just made one one one
documentary saying I am dying but you guys have you know yeah like won't you say like going to the

(37:31):
UN and speaking such strongly to all the world leaders is not like at like 92 years of age or
93 years of age that is where that is where I have my problem oops that he could have done this
40 years earlier yes but 92 or 93 like the world didn't know better 40 years earlier like he might

(37:53):
be this enigmatic person or maybe even more intelligent than the average average Joe but he's
still shaped by the society at that point in time so you know that one documentary like the what
is it called the last something the last testament or the last statement or whatever it is called

(38:14):
and he literally says that okay the world is burning there's too many people and everything
will be over in the next 100 years so it's almost like saying see I'm I'm 90 whatever I'm going to
die soon but you guys you guys are going to die soon as well like the earth is burning so I was like
if you knew the earth was burning and you had such a big no no we know now I think he also like

(38:41):
everybody in that industry came to realize that I feel like they would have been in denial for so
long the whole industry only maybe few people speaking about these things and then like 20, 25
years ago everyone woke up to this idea and I feel like since then a lot of people

(39:02):
including David Attenborough I mean he could have done more but
every one of his documentaries now that come out has that message I think yeah his brand is very much
the beautiful pictures of nature which people admire him for and there are other people who people

(39:22):
can watch if they want that hard hitting sort of style but I would feel like if that was the only
thing that was coming out of David Attenborough yeah I wouldn't care to watch it because there are
so many other things I can watch I go I wait for David Attenborough documentaries so I can sort of

(39:44):
neutralize a little and not feel like all the world is coming to an end all the time so
that's my perspective on that yeah but I think I think like at least at least okay let's say
even ten years back maybe you might be hardwired that way but if I was someone and I was rooted to
take an animal from the wild and send it to a zoo there is there is that realization right there

(40:09):
where you can see the animal struggle so I don't know if I told you this story but I was volunteering at this
eco what would you say like an eco accommodation kind of thing in this area called Tuticorin
Tamil Nadu in India and there you know they were they were really conscious about the ocean and

(40:33):
the corals and everything around that but one day they just picked up these fish from the ocean
and they put it into the aquarium and it was really strange for me because I did not imagine them
doing that because they really love the ocean and their ocean was literally at the doorstep like
you know you just step out of your room and the oceans there but but I saw first time what happens

(40:56):
when you put a wild animal into the you know the cage as you would call it and I think we spoke
about this a few episodes earlier as well the the fish zoomed and they kept eating the glass
multiple times because they did not understand you know they just came from the ocean where nothing
restricts you you can just swim left right wherever and here there was a glass wall that they could

(41:17):
understand and they kept ramming into it so the first two three hours I saw how much this struggled
and then they kind of calm down because they kind of accepted that this is what it is and their
acceptance came in faster than probably we would ever accept but it was really sad to watch that so
as a person who wasn't even doing the deed of trapping them I felt that pinch or that you know

(41:43):
that sadness or that anger or the helplessness so how could how can you not feel that or how could
David not feel that no I feel like again like you measuring that past like 50 years ago's past
today's standards and today's yardstick no I'm just saying feeling feeling when you see an animal

(42:06):
trap feeling is shaped by society feeling is shaped by how like like romantic love it didn't exist
before 1600s nobody knew what romantic love was it you're saying people did not love each other
no no no no how did they love each other then they they they came in contact with each other for

(42:29):
different reasons and there has been multiple studies about this romantic love as we understand it
today did not exist before 1600s and that's when after that romantic love came because before
that it was just even if there was marriage it was just for land or cattle or one thing or the other

(42:50):
there was no concept of romantic love before 1600s that's when romantic love was introduced
just because people didn't know just because it was documented since then it doesn't mean that people
you're saying and we've seen this even an animal species different animal species you can actually
see that they show their love to their partner so there is no way that we did not it might have

(43:14):
been documented since 1600s but are you saying that there was no way that people showed love to
their partner romantically no there is no evidence of it I mean we have evidence from 60,000
100,000 years ago of activities of humans so we should have something from 400 years ago

(43:37):
and yeah so that that's what I'm saying like what was happening before 1600 how were we showing
our love to each other no we weren't we weren't we didn't need to because the societal framework
didn't have place for for those kinds of affections and feelings so yeah that's that's that's

(44:03):
basically the thing like even think of your grandparents or their grandparents have you ever like
in my family I have never seen my grandparents showing that love in in a way that we imagine
today so they they didn't know better and they there was no societal framework for it so
but tell me this when you talk about humans you talk about us having a conscience right when we

(44:29):
talk about this conscience if it actually do you think it is do you think that conscience is
that big yeah so that that is my question what what we consider wrong today do you think 400
years ago we considered it wrong no but I'm saying it's not about a wrong right but it is about
feeling that pain so I will I will give you an example obviously there is social conditioning in a

(44:53):
lot of factors factors that come into play but when I was around 10 and my brother was around 12
my parents gave us the choice that that you know that they were vegetarians but we could be whatever
we wanted to be we could choose to eat meat and it was fine but when I was given that choice

(45:15):
then I realized how much I love animals and I cannot imagine them on on my plate now obviously I
did not grow up with eating animals so it is very different than someone who would give up later
you know when you're conditioned from from birth then probably you don't see that meat as in
you know as a proper animal right but I'm saying when given the choice my conscience pumped in so

(45:36):
I'm just saying that when I could feel you're saying you're saying of an event which is like 30
years ago and nothing major has changed in that structure and I'm just I'm just talking about
how conscience kicks in so if you see if you see an animal struggling how many you're saying a lot
of people their conscience wouldn't have like they don't they just get now it would and now it would

(45:59):
but when it was the part and parcel of life they wouldn't if they if they had that conscience and if
they felt that they wouldn't be able to survive in that scenario so it was about survival also animals
and humans both so you're saying that let's say 60 years back humans didn't feel anything

(46:20):
not 60 years 400 300 years ago or even 60 years ago yes they didn't feel anything when they saw
when they were capturing a wild animal and that was the name that was like the tail end of our
of the European exploration I'm not justifying that it was right or wrong but I'm just saying

(46:42):
probably it was wrong but I'm saying measuring things of the past with the yardstick of today
is a very dangerous thing and we just cannot do that we just cannot do that it's very very dangerous
there are a number of examples with society see consider to be consider to be normal but then

(47:04):
someone came around and showed them that this is not normal this is what is normal so the society
changed it took time but society changed its view on certain things I I understand with with
the Lord of Human related things especially like let's say women empowerment and racism and sexism
and everything else I understand that it was a learned process because going by however

(47:30):
people evolutionary wise there was a lot of things that we unlearned but pain and feeling pain
and seeing some other you know animal or human trapped and shrieking out in pain that should be
universal to feel some kind of emotion are you saying that is also learned if you felt that if you
that is also learned if you felt that and if you couldn't live with yourself if you saw that

(47:55):
then you wouldn't have anything to eat like humans as humans you wouldn't have anything to eat
if you felt that pain every time you killed an animal you wouldn't have anything to eat
very good to eat but I'm talking about not killing it but just torturing it
torturing it I mean killing like we have the halal method of killing which some people can

(48:18):
see as torture no I understand that existed for two thousand years but they're still killing it
right like they're still killing it in the wild you don't see animals literally torture animals like
you know like keep them in our confined space and torture them they either go for the hunt and kill
them which probably what we were also doing a few hundred years back but now we actually just enjoy

(48:41):
keeping animals in trapped spaces which is which is where I do not understand where we got that
conditioning where we were okay with animals being in trapped spaces okay with them being our puppets
like where you know there are obviously certain things that have changed we were okay with having
them in circuses and rolling balls like the elephants you know but where did we get this callus

(49:03):
nasanas where we started off with just hunting animals but then we said no we want the animals to
be trapped as well I think it is it is when we started settling in one place and then we wanted to
see all those animals maybe again this is positive this is mind sort of a thought experiment

(49:24):
but yeah I feel like it came from there they wanted all those things but in a confined or in a
wherever we have settled around us so yeah when I was doing that's when I was doing my
research for my masters that time I remember we I dread that initially as humans even as hunter

(49:51):
gatherers and maybe a few civilizations later that we had a deep connection with animals because
we coexisted with them so we had a lot of respect and reverence for them but slowly and slowly with
the advent of religion and certain you know what do you say ways that they were propagated the
religion was propagated then somehow animals became like good for us or a commodity for us instead

(50:17):
of coexisting and being how important they were because if we go into older cultures we have animals
that are born as well even in our culture but even enough small number of animals like small
number of animals like I come back to this because I this I read this recent discovery where

(50:37):
lot of sites has been excavated in Australia there was this this huge sort of apex predator in Australia
can't remember the diplodone or something along those lines and that predator in Australia

(50:57):
was there when humans first arrived which was as I said like 40 to 60,000 years ago it was
a marsupial but with the beauty of convergent evolution it evolved into something like a big cat
it wasn't a mammal but it evolved like so and there is strong evidence to suggest that humans coming

(51:24):
there was the cause of their extinction because obviously if you're living somewhere you wouldn't
enjoy having the 10 feet beast roaming around and killing all of you so yeah that was that was made
extinct because because of humans so I feel like that that view that we always viewed animals as

(51:49):
very sacred I think it's very it is true but it's also a little bit narrow in some some cases because
there might have been some animals that we prayed to or viewed as very important but there were
others that we just didn't care for much but you you know that there's that picture right like like

(52:10):
maybe like thousands of years ago the there was a human settlement let's say in a cave or something
and there was a fence around where the human state and the rest of the earth was wild and green
and now they say that now the animals have a boundary and the humans are everywhere so like you
know it's changed like you know we used to be scared of whatever animals then we would not

(52:32):
venture out in the night and we had our rules and what animals and which places and we map them all
and now we've come to this area where like we've raised out like a big area of land and now we
have like these oh this is a national park and this is the boundary of the national park so now we
tell the animals you have to stay in this area even though earlier it was just that okay we'll

(52:54):
just protect ourselves the animals can just stay wherever they are so that coexistence principle
that we had earlier has also changed massively now 100% I think population and everything else
has you know changed it massively and yeah but yeah so that's again it's it's a it's a good rabbit hole

(53:17):
we went down on and if anyone's wondering what a dip proto-dont that's that's the animal I was
thinking this is the marsupial sort of it was called giant slot but it had no relation to a slot
that looks cute it looks like a half bear half eagle half one bad half everything yeah it was a
one bad light creature it was a one bad light creature dip proto-dont but they were very scary

(53:44):
and humans definitely did appreciate them having them around so so yeah um I think that's that should
be it for this topic I feel like we should wrap up otherwise we'll just go on go on go on
yeah there are there are some topics where I think oops and we passionately feel the opposite way

(54:08):
so then that leads to long long long long debates so we get to the next topic which is
post blob california's kelp crisis isn't going away so kelp forest if you did not know
are these vital marine habitats and they're declining globally primarily due to climate impacts

(54:30):
obviously the climate is impacting everywhere but it seems going for the news pattern that it's
hitting the oceans harder than it is hitting the land northern california suffered a 95% loss after
the 2013 blob heatwave and a mass sea star die off so blob is this heatwave that hit in 2013 it

(54:51):
was a huge heatwave and after that there was a huge loss and all these sea stars or you know starfish
died off and this allowed the purple urchins unchecked by predators to proliferate rapidly
transforming the one slush kelp forest into vast urchin balance with minimal recovery so the stars

(55:13):
see the sea stars used to eat these urchins and keep them in check but when the sea stars died
then the purple urchins grew crazily and then the kelp never recovered a 2024 dive in
Casper Cove reveal this devastation firsthand thousands of purple urchins counted at 120
per square meter blanket the sea floor for kelp to regenerate urchin density must fall to two per

(55:37):
square meter groups like water man's alliance are actively culling these urchins using rock hammers
hoping to restore critical kelp ecosystems essential for marine biodiversity and struggling
abalone populations so it brings me to a question oops now obviously the heatwave is nature

(55:57):
right it happened because because there was a climate change yeah now whatever it was it was pure
nature now if nature only caused this kind of change do you think it was wise for us to try to
bring something back or do we just accept i feel like we caused something that's why nature reacted

(56:21):
that way that is how we see things i think i would see that issue and that is how i feel like
the people who are trying to restore it see this issue as well but but the thing you
mentioned about novel ecosystems and accepting that we have changed something to an extent where

(56:47):
there's no way of going back that is i think mention very beautifully in this book called
the rambunctious garden i mentioned this i think one of the first or the second episode i love that book
um it just basically says that humans have touched every habitat and ecosystem around the planet

(57:12):
and there's no way that we can go back into this fantasy land of pre-colonial or
everybody you ask they might have a different time they would want the forests and the natural world
to go back to so i think that is also there but things like this i feel like it's a crisis in terms of

(57:37):
like it's decimating the whole ecosystem and the food chain and everything else so for me the question
is i think obviously humans are causing that impact and that impact is visible in how the climate
changes happening but at the same time i feel i don't know where it's sometimes the nature reacts in a certain

(57:58):
way because maybe that is its defense and that is its mechanism where it feels like that is probably
its best way of course to run the nature has been running for far longer than we have been alive
so i do not understand where we should step in and try to meddle with nature and where we shouldn't
step in yeah i feel like that that that is surely a question because we assume right we assume that

(58:22):
this is not right for nature like the nature is not telling us that oh this isn't right or this is
right like we just assuming like we assume for everything yeah i think this is this must be a question
that scientists and sort of people who are in that field researching etc are must be dealing with

(58:47):
i can only imagine they must be dealing with even like more granular questions than this
but yeah i think it's a fine line it's a fine line so on my screen i've shared the manga
the article and the photo of the kelp forest so this is how the kelp looks so the kelp is like

(59:08):
huge tending plants you would say from the seafloor and they have these leaves
and it's like a proper plant plant and it has a whole ecosystem through which a load of animal
survives and it's not just fish there are rays and there are seals and there are different kind
of animals that survive they're usually found in colder climates not tropical climates but

(59:31):
now these kelp is what they're talking about that in one certain area the pacifalcope area in
the article that area is where it has hit the hardest in california and california is one of
the places that's known for these kelp forests so it's not happened everywhere in california because
that is the person i follow on instagram who makes these beautiful videos and i think he goes diving

(59:55):
through the kelp every day but this one area has been hit really badly so there might be patches
where it has impacted more and there might be patches that it hasn't impacted as much
yeah that that can be true but also like kelp i think the beavers there depend a lot on kelp

(01:00:18):
and if you see the photographs of i was just looking for the purple urchin photographs
look at this like it's devastating like urchins can take over this this whole area they can
colonize like an entire area and they breed so prolifically that and they just

(01:00:44):
decimate that whole ecosystem in lack in lack of a predator which i think is starfish for urchins
yeah it's a sea star sea stars are different from starfish but sea star
yeah i think that the ones which have the you know the many many legs it looks like an octopus but

(01:01:05):
it doesn't have a head yeah look at this look at this baron landscape it's almost like there's no
features there and this is what urchins are very good at doing i'll just assume the image in
but yeah this is what urchins are very good at doing yeah i feel like it just yeah sinks my heart when
i see this baron landscape all taken over by urchins which is which is nature's way of saying that

(01:01:30):
this probably needs some help this this particular ecosystem needs some help and i i feel like
plants in any ecosystem be it water plants or land plants are supremely important
yeah there's no two ways about it yeah yeah i think i'll just like share a photo of sea stars

(01:01:55):
for our public oh yes okay it's up there okay cool um so that is how the sea stars look so they
know starfish but they have like starfish i think usually have just five right um five yeah these
just have i don't know 10 15 arms and that is how the starfish look

(01:02:15):
yeah the stars look sorry sorry sorry but yeah basically what is happening now and i think i
would want to once share let me just try to find that person um videos so i can show you a video
of how the swimming through the kelp looks like yeah it's beautiful it's beautiful um beavers enjoy it

(01:02:41):
seals and sea lions enjoy seals and sea lions enjoy it so um so yeah i think this is one of those
places where it it's very clear to me that it needs human intervention and human help
because it is decimated to an to an extent where there is very little chance that it would

(01:03:07):
recover on its own um yeah i i i i i feel like okay i can't get to that video
that ecosystem will recover on its own so yeah that's where i feel like
um that is that is i think the the question also the same question as earlier maybe nature wants

(01:03:33):
kelp first in some areas but it wants like urchin sea beds in other areas who are we to question
nature um especially if it's been 12 years and nature is just letting these populations over
the area yeah that is that is an excellent argument for a novel ecosystem and that's what the

(01:03:55):
proponents of novel ecosystems that's the argument they make that if a niche is empty if a
niche is not being fulfilled nature it will take time but nature will um find a way to fulfill
fulfill that niche and there will be some evolution happening but the problem is the changes are

(01:04:16):
happening so fast due to our activities um global warming being one of them one of the key key
ones is that nature doesn't really run on that on that scale it just runs on a much much
much slower scale which is too slow for this pace the changes are happening in that's where i think

(01:04:40):
a lot of those conversations come in that well if nature is wanting it then we have to give it
enough time as well we can't expect in a one month or even one year or even like 10 year
the geological clock is much slower than that yeah that's yeah like like I think for me it's like when

(01:05:04):
humans create some kind of change when humans introduce some kind of species or when humans
introduce some kind of trees or any kind of florer for a change and then the florer for a change is
then obviously I feel like yes because you got in the problem then you now try to find a solution
if nature is not able to cope now obviously even after we do something nature is able to cope and

(01:05:25):
there is a certain way that things evolve and change just like how nature has cope with eight
billion of us being on the planet now it's not happened overnight but it's happened right and
nature is still coping with us being there yeah so so there has to be a way that we have to give
enough credit to nature I feel like when humans do certain things you wait watch and you don't

(01:05:49):
assume if this is good for nature or it isn't good but you know I mean it's the same way I think
we feel for our pets as well somehow we assume we know what is the best for them we don't even know
if that is what something they enjoy except if they tell us okay this food I don't enjoy something
but everything else is it's similar for having human babies yeah that's like we we assume because

(01:06:10):
till the time the babies don't talk we just assume that we know what's the best for them so anything
that doesn't communicate back with us we we feel like okay like we know yeah I feel like
us knowing that will never go away but I also think that yeah there should be a space for

(01:06:31):
saving certain ecosystems but there will also other spaces where saving doesn't really make sense or
putting in that constant effort of us imagining it in a state where it was all beautiful and all

(01:06:53):
balanced doesn't make sense in in some cases so we have to also evaluate these crises in a case
to case spaces some places one one approach would make sense in others another approach would make
sense but whatever be the case I think there are actual implementations or actual spaces where

(01:07:25):
it does need a little bit of human intervention so yeah yeah so I finally found some
page that talks about kelp so it talks about the kelp and it shows all the species that stay in the kelp
and it talks about so it's it's a page called ocean generation and it talks about how a single

(01:07:48):
piece of kelp you know on average what good it does yeah I think plants in general like it captures
carbon that's the biggest positive of having plants some more than others but especially these kinds
of plants any ocean glowing plants they capture a lot of carbon they store it and I think like because

(01:08:13):
it is like it's a proper forest like a underwater forest it provides the much needed habitat for a lot
of animals so you know even underwater when we go and we dive most areas are like either a reef
where fish can like find places and nook sim corners to make their homes with the same with kelp

(01:08:37):
like a lot of animals get their you know make their homes around it there are a few animals that are
just in the open ocean and you know they don't have like a particular home but a lot of small fish
they have their homes and a lot of trees have like homes like you know they'll stay in those areas
and a few sharks species also stay around the same areas so kelp is one of those areas where it

(01:09:00):
promotes the habitat of a lot of animals yeah kelp very important that's I haven't read too much
about kelp but I feel like whatever I've heard whatever little I've heard is that they're very

(01:09:25):
important cornerstones of the ecosystem and it's good that they're at least making some effort to
try and save them save that ecosystem as well yeah and then we have here is how should marine
heat waves and warming warming seas which are predicted to increase be factored into kelp

(01:09:47):
preservation strategy planning I feel like every strategy planning or every planning session that
happens or has happened in the past five 10 years has to be with the fact factored in that the

(01:10:11):
seas are warming global warming is a real thing climate change is a real thing any plan I feel like
has to be included and has to be planned in a way that it includes the fact of fact and truth
of I think for sure I think we've come to this like maybe what you said like now we've come to this

(01:10:35):
age and generation where we know that whatever we're doing is creating an impact so we have to be
responsible for it and take that into account when we're planning for anything because we've already
destroyed a lot of ecosystems we've already made a lot of animals extinct so we should try to
conserve whatever is left but obviously we need to take that into planning so whenever we plan

(01:11:00):
for something then we need to take this into consideration that okay what are these heat waves
what are the changes map them and see how extensive the damage is what if there are new areas with
kelp for us instead what exactly is happening what we can do for the marine heat waves to reduce

(01:11:21):
it's easier said than done though I think because a lot of governments and a lot of corporates
are really interested in the environment like and and like like as I think we have discussed this
before as well like I can't fully blame them because they have so many so many sort of human rights

(01:11:42):
problems in their countries in some of the countries some of the countries are developing nations
so like it's it's also not very fair to blame them because obviously you would put those
human interest issues and human rights crises on top of a climate crisis but I think the time

(01:12:06):
has also come that the climate crises be a constant presence in every country's agenda and talking
points and etc even if they're developing even if they're like at allocate like every country won't
be able to allocate similar budgets to those causes but at least allocate a part of your budget

(01:12:29):
of your capability in your country towards that and and like not doing things that are counter
intuitive and counter measures to achieving that goal like yeah but I think it's already there
so I mean I think like we become such a capitalistic and consumerist society like the whole point

(01:12:52):
of ads or advertisements do you remember when we were younger there would be such less ads and you
would have more playtime I mean you know on the TV or on the radio or wherever and now you have
to flip through seven channels to find a channel that does not have an ad and all of the ads are
basically telling you you need something that you probably don't need but a lot of people get

(01:13:15):
into the trap so we are creating more and more waste and we are actually going towards
area or you know even though we are more aware at the same time we're also not more aware like I
don't know how to say this but we'll have like like all these new fancy makeup and like small tubes
and then we'll come up with like new kind of things you know this new toy or this new thing or this

(01:13:40):
new like slime which is like a big thing now for like those ASMR videos so we come up with more
ways to create more more ways to create more waste that is that is what I would say so even though
we have all these hard burning topics of how we should you know save the planet I still think it's
a very small percentage of people who actually care no that is and that is what we are trying to

(01:14:05):
change I think through through our to our show through our but you remember and this is something
that I think hit me really hard so they said that earlier what they used to do is the the company
used to take responsibility and then they started pushing it onto the consumer so when we were

(01:14:26):
little we used to have these in the milk vallas come to our home like with the milk and then
they support it yeah and they support it in this what do you say just to contain it and we would
take it and we would pasteurize it and then we'd consume it and now people just get milk in like
packets or tetrapax or different kind of you know base and now obviously with the whole

(01:14:52):
advent even may include it we switched our milk and everything but but I'm just talking about how
at one point of time it was no plastics nothing you know used to buy these loose spices I still
remember when when when I was young I used to go with my dad to the market where you would so in

(01:15:13):
India you have like this weekly vegetable market in your area in your local neighborhood and all
these vendors would come and they would be selling their produce and when you buy from them you had
to take like a big we used to call it a big shoppy like a big bag and they would just you know like
just top the vegetables in it so all the vegetables just went on top of each other and used to come

(01:15:35):
back and used to separate there was no concept of plastics there was no concept of separation there
was no concept of you know putting a sticker on each bag that you take so that it could be bar
so we have evolved in such a way that we've also become very anti environment just by design
yes I feel I feel the same way yeah we have we could have chosen a different way but I sometimes wonder

(01:16:01):
how did we choose this particular way which was the most harmful but we also don't know there
might be some other ways we could have chosen which would have been even more devastating but
but yeah we chose them one of the most how we chose convenience or what anything else oh 100%
100% speaking of that we are choosing some things for koalas as well again this this sort of topic

(01:16:34):
and this debate will continue where what what are we allowed to choose for animals what are we
allowed to when are we allowed to intervene so this is an article published by Reuters where it says
Australia proves first vaccine to save koalas from chlamydia and Australia has approved the

(01:16:56):
first vaccine to protect koalas from chlamydia a breakthrough scientist's hope will halt this
pred of the deadly disease devastating the endangered marsupial chlamydia is responsible
for up to half of all koalas deaths which is wild causing infertility blindness and severe

(01:17:19):
uti that lead to dehydration infection rates can read 70% in some populations with colonies
nearing local extinction this is very surprising like i didn't know this existed but this this
sort of this article has been making rounds this week a lot because i think this breakthrough happened

(01:17:47):
in there but yeah i wasn't even aware that koalas could get this disease and we were talking
about this when we were writing the script yeah it's very surprising to me that this is happening and
like it is decimating a population so i was reading up about it and i was thinking why the koalas

(01:18:13):
you know maybe because if it's something like let's say how hiv the strain was inside the ape but it
did not affect the ape so if koalas always had it then it would have been something that
where the populations couldn't even reach this age so it seemed that it is highly likely that
these strains of chlamydia jumped ship from agricultural animals into koalas how this transmission

(01:18:36):
occurred people still do not know but in australia the theory is that it may have jumped ship from
agricultural animals but in all theory it is possible that it jumped ship from humans as well
because even it is a different know maybe maybe syringes or something like that i don't know
something yeah it can't be like i mean unless there was some human again like you know if our

(01:19:02):
viewers did not know the way that humans got hiv is because there was one really desperate human
that went and had sex with this ape and then got the hiv strain transferred to a human and then
it gets to keep transferring into humans so it is possible that with the koalas there was one very
desperate human again and it may have spread now obviously we want to blame the agricultural animals

(01:19:27):
but i do not know how they're even getting into contact with each other if they are
are they sexually getting into contact with each other so now they're just left
and it can also transform cut thin bruises and a lot of different ways as well so we do not know but
yeah it's devastating this population so it goes on to say that developed over a decade by a

(01:19:52):
university of sunshine coast team the single dose vaccine is expected to reduce symptoms during
breeding age and cut wild koala mortality by at least 65% research has emphasized more funding
is crucially needed to produce larger batches and ensure the vaccine's widespread effective rollout

(01:20:15):
to save koala population again this goes on to also show that how long time how long of a time
vaccines take even for like humans this is for this was for an animal so it took like 10 years but
even for humans it takes over like two three years to test all the vaccine and get it approved

(01:20:35):
and things like that unless unless gov it hits you then it's just a few minutes unless unless
gov it hits you where you have to take like extraordinary measures in those cases but
but tell me this like at least people are now talking about now I don't know I don't know if
it is even related to COVID or not but people are talking about how after the COVID vaccine it's a lot

(01:20:57):
of people have been experiencing like there's heart problems like we hear more young people dying
of heart attacks right now in India especially people who have been going to the gym and they're in
the gym and they just you know they die because of whatever the after effects of these COVID vaccines

(01:21:17):
are or what people believe them to be but when this has come in do they have enough evidence to
back that this doesn't have long term health effects for the koalas even though it's reducing the
wild mortality rate yeah I think that is a valid question and I I feel that it definitely will have

(01:21:38):
something or the other because that's that's that's where all the all the anti-vaxx anti-vaxx
sort of rhetoric comes in human anti-vaxx crew comes in with the pitch folks and stuff
again typically we are not anti-vaxx or anti-vaxing in any shape of form but that's the main

(01:22:04):
argument of anti-vaxx people where they're like oh they're causing these long term health
problems and there are no long term studies being done to assess what what problems are happening
in human so I think a similar approach would be needed like a long term study would be needed for
these koalas as well especially because they're they're completely wild animals they're not

(01:22:27):
domesticated in any way and this is something that they're affecting them this this vaccine
is solving that problem but might also introduce some new problems that we might not even be aware of
so I think whoever's administering this vaccine the government should also make sure that they are

(01:22:48):
also responsible to check in on the koalas and make sure that there are no long term things
happening because I can only imagine like there must be something happening like because we are
sort of administering them synthetic chemical but I'm actually also surprised if it's taking 10 years

(01:23:08):
to make a vaccine was it not as urgent like 10 years to approve that vaccine because it says
developed over a decade ago by or developed over a decade okay okay that that means it has taken 10
years to make that vaccine sorry but yeah no okay so then was was it not that urgent and also at

(01:23:37):
what point of time would you think that that we figured out that this is a problem in koalas like
the klamedia is sitting but again I think it boils down to the same question that if we had
not meddled with the koalas would they have never gotten klamedia because it has to be something either
from us or the agricultural population yeah I mean agriculture is also our something we created and we

(01:24:04):
nurture it as well so yeah I feel like that is a valid question which we kind of I don't know if we
know the answer to it but see now in this in this way I feel like I would support like because we
created the problem for the koalas so we have to find solution now this is not something nature has
done like nature didn't give them klamedia we gave them klamedia somehow whatever the source be we

(01:24:27):
do not know and it is more convenient to blame it on the agricultural population than on humans that
probably handle the koalas or whatever they did but it's I mean these are wild koalas but why would
human handle these koalas like these are wild these are not in zoos or parks okay okay let's say
there are wild koalas but if they came across like I don't know infected something that humans

(01:24:53):
have thrown somewhere they're just possible that it's from there klamedia no like if they had
if the koala had it would have been extraordinary circumstance it would have to be a bruise on the
koala like an open wound and then they roll on that whatever we have thrown infected then they
would get it like by ingesting it they wouldn't get it no I think that's not how any of the STD's

(01:25:19):
work but yeah but if there was an open wound and they ate something and they licked that open
wound that might cause it I don't know but yeah yeah it's it's strange that how this population ended
up whether it could also be that they have this they had this train and something activated it some

(01:25:45):
of the chemicals are consuming something activated a strain that was already present in them again
the scientists would be the better people to answer this question but and we might try getting like a
quote from one of the scientists that is working and just publish like a post later on but

(01:26:10):
yeah yeah I think that is that is the thing whatever it is however human-induced it is but
but in this case we have to find a solution but again we do not know how effective this long-term
solution is because every vaccine has its side effects and even in humans a lot of vaccines that
are approved now went through like dozens of clinical trials with a lot of side effects and now

(01:26:33):
there are some that don't have side effects and probably that's one of the only human things that I
kind of approve of because if if you're going to live a life then you should try to live it
as disease-free as possible and the vaccines kind of help that plus plus we kind of we're not wild

(01:26:55):
anymore and we are susceptible to a lot of things and we we're living in this tight very dense
population so that in that that in in itself breeds a lot of disease and a lot of
yes unless you're less you're less you're a cut off or living Thomas or you know in in

(01:27:19):
underman islands in India there's a tribe called the Jarava tribe not the Sentinel Islands there's
a free bird the Jarava tribe is this foresty area where a road goes through the forest and earlier
with the Jarava tribes used to do was they used to get really angry with seeing the cards go through
the forest so they were they were through spares at the cars and deflate the tires so then people

(01:27:41):
started going in convoys but then what happened is that they started to start contacting the tribes
and they started like leaving clothes for them and they started like communicating so now these
tribal people like when you're going in the convo you can actually see them standing next to the
and they're looking for you to like throw packets of chips and biscuits and anything that they

(01:28:01):
can get their hands on because we've kind of caught in them accustomed we've given them a taste of it
but at the same time people are saying that that because their star work isn't used to such kind of
food they are not used to being this close to humans so there is a big possibility of them getting
diseases and they're not vaccinated they're not I mean they they are also humans they are also humans

(01:28:24):
they're not in the same situation. Oh yeah sorry sorry I mean I mean to the urban humans let's say the
urban or the non-non you know not even tribal what what would we call the the tribal only we
had their tribal Jarava tribes so the tribal humans they do not have the same exposure they don't
have vaccination so one of the main things that they were saying was that do not like do not

(01:28:49):
engage with them just because you could cause a problem for them not because you know they could
cause a problem the main problem is that if you're going to give them certain food or if you're
going to maintain contact or touch or anything it could cause a big decimation of their
problem of their population just because they are not vaccinated so it all comes down to what
exposure you have now we in the city are exposed to certain kind of elements we need those kind

(01:29:14):
of vaccinations but if you're deep in the forest and you probably do not you know interact with
anything else yeah and I think that there's there's that's the reason you mentioned the central
violence that's the reason that has been sort of cordoned off and officially declared like a like an

(01:29:34):
entity where nobody could visit and nobody could go because they are the last uncontacted group of
humans that remain on our planet so like they would definitely die off from all the germs that
would be would sprint to them and Jaravas are contacted now they are they they're fully not integrated

(01:30:00):
in society but in some ways there's schools and stuff they go to and stuff so um but yeah I feel like
yeah I think they go to schools as well I think they're still widely not I don't think that they
look kind of stepped into proper civilization it they're still trying to do that no I don't know

(01:30:22):
the last update I don't have a new update but I'm talking about 10 years back so I don't know
if they should change the last thing I think a lot of a lot has happened in those 10 years
and I'm not integrated and they are integrated slowly integrating into society and not fully
integrated but yeah certainly certainly quite a bit integrated and obviously they wear clothes now

(01:30:47):
and things like that I think they're depending on a lot of like farm food as well and not hunting
and gathering a lot but yeah but the Sentinel Island Sentinel-East people they are
completely protected like we have contacted them but they don't want the contact

(01:31:09):
they don't they don't want the contact like we did offer some coconuts and assaults to them
um and there was some cordial cordial interactions with them but yeah but largely they're they're not
in a meaningful way or in a long way they haven't been contacted which is good let them

(01:31:32):
that let them remain let them remain that way let them live their life um but yeah
which obviously brings us to the discussion question on this topic which says that while the
vaccine can greatly reduce death from chlamydia how important is it to pair vaccination programs with
habitat restoration and protection to ensure that koalas have enough places to thrive and survive

(01:31:59):
that is that is a good question actually because in all this huha we forget the other things like
we're focused on this one issue but then there are like 10 different things that also affect
these koalas especially the wildfires that happen happen in Australia because of these

(01:32:20):
again human activities because they've we've cut down a lot of trees we have drained a lot of lakes
forests etc um yeah i feel like so that that is what it's called let's keep it brooch yeah i think we
look at only one side of the problem but we do not look at the other side of the problem which
is obviously you need bigger habitat so that the koalas in the wild do not have to come in direct contact

(01:32:46):
with let's say agricultural population or even human population so if they can thrive and survive
in the wild even after vaccination you need to give them a big enough space so they do not have
to come into this you know what would you call the animal human conflict zone um and they can
stay in their area so when we talk about one solution we do not talk about a solution that

(01:33:10):
involves the entire protection of that species and it's the same for any other species now obviously
I understand that there are eight billion of us and the projection is that we'll be 11 billion
in 50 years or whatever 50 hundred years so if we are going by that projection we need to also see
that if we are growing at this unprecedented rate this is despite the fact that globally the birth

(01:33:35):
rate is declining like the birth rate is on a decline but still there are so many of us that even if
one you know even if a few of us uh populate it's a big number so it will keep growing even though
like the birth rate is declining you have to see the amount of people that are also alive so when
we are going to take a more and more space we also need to see how we're going to protect these

(01:34:00):
animals that also need space you know the space that we're literally invading into
yes I feel like that that is that is something we um we have to keep in mind um in in terms of
what what uh we are we are exposing these animals too but also like we're not focusing on that we are

(01:34:32):
not just focusing on that one particular thing but focus taking like a holistic approach to
um to protecting the species this is good if there's this this this this virus this
climate virus was affecting so many people so many koalas sorry um this is good and that that

(01:34:57):
that problem is being solved but then there are also many problems that needs to be solved
and not all animal-tharlaki i mean you know the koalas are like a star species in Australia and people
kind of um relayed Australia with two animals prime really which is kangaroos and koalas

(01:35:19):
even though there are like a lot of other animals that are native to Australia these are the two
animals that people usually associate them with so the koalas have a new lease of life with this
vaccination that people research for over 10 years and worked hard to get the approval for but not
all animals are probably that lucky there might be other animals in the wild that are suffering from

(01:35:39):
other diseases but that are not as important in the public forums so they probably do not get the
same kind of love and the same kind of attention and the same kind of research and solutions that is
that is very sad but true um like even for India yeah in India like when the tiger project came up

(01:36:01):
people went crazy about tigers they still are but then it only brought the tigers to the
forefront and not the thousands of other animals that we have in India like i mean we are one of
the craziest bird-hivers areas but still you know not all animals are up at that level as tigers are
so they don't get the same kind of funding and they don't get the same kind of love and

(01:36:28):
research that's true um do you want to do some new discoveries like that yeah i think talking about
interesting ones talking about animals going extinct at least we have new discoveries as well no
obviously we do not know if these animals were already surviving but we came across these animals so

(01:36:55):
i wouldn't say then obviously one one animal is definitely really really new and really really
surprising um this is that there's a rare bright orange sharp that was discovered in Costa Rica
and when i showed the picture to oops he literally said no that is AI and i and i had to assure him
that it is not AI it is a real real sharp we'll just put the photo up for you one minute

(01:37:22):
yeah you can keep talking i can do that yeah okay yes so this is a nurse sharp and nurse sharks
are usually gray um yes that is the shark that you can see on the on the screen at the moment
and this is a real picture and it is that bright and even it's baffling scientists as well
because sharks need to be gray-toned so that they you know are not visible because the predators

(01:37:46):
so they have to be like ambushing so if they're this bright and they're coming towards a fish then
the fish would be like probably looking at it like you know instead of uh instead of not looking at it
which is also like bigger predators this is like a walking target almost you know exactly yeah exactly
I mean I mean even in albinism like you would you would assume I don't know like for us usually

(01:38:10):
albinism is is really white but in this case a gray shark became an orange shark so even in albinism
this is really strange but and we do not know if there are more sharks that exist with the same color
this is the nurse nurse shark species but we do not know if if this is the only one that is so this

(01:38:31):
is the only one that's documented we do not know if more of them actually are there in the wild at
in the ocean yeah it says it's unusual color is caused by something called zanthism a condition
which researchers say it's extremely rare in fishes like sharks but like this this looks like like

(01:38:51):
as me know saying like I thought this was like AI generated you can never know these days
this this image was AI generated but then lot of and I was saying I was asking Magna that
find like a reliable source for this and then BBC we found a BBC source and then now national
geographic has also covered it so I can believe that it's like it's the truth um but yeah it's

(01:39:19):
very very strange like this bright it's like this bright orange color almost like the new iPhones
very very bright orange and very looking as well I would say if you scroll down there's
under picture like from the top of the hole yeah this one yeah this one and it was a bit

(01:39:40):
Scott by like a fisherman like a casual fisherman just like fishing and it's just how lucky that for
that person as well yeah and they're also saying the shark has wide eyes which is not normal so it
probably does point words alvanism but I mean this is a fully grown shark or maybe a juvenile shark

(01:40:04):
but it has survived with that kind of color in the wild and it is hunting so we do
not know I mean there's so many mysteries of the ocean and this is one another mystery we do not
know how it affected this particular species of shark and if it is spreading on or we have zero
ideas so this is a new discovery and and obviously people are going crazy because like you you see

(01:40:29):
imuded sharks all the time like muted colors the maximum you see is like white with gray but mostly
all gray so people are going crazy because this is like a colorful shark and this is very like
like the cut shark is very photogenic yeah do you think we'll try to capture it and bring it
into an aquarium I think there are people like you out there for sure yeah um in other news

(01:40:57):
new gecko from asam named after forest department so this is a report from the Hindu a new bent
toad gecko citrodactylus vanaraksha that is the Hindi word for forest protectors or forest
departments in short that's why it's the the article is titled as such was discovered in central

(01:41:23):
asams deema hasao district and described by manmat burali at all in the journal of asia
pacific biodiversity found in the burali burail sorry burail hills uh maintain forests its name
vanaraksha since it's for forest protected honors the asam forest department for their vital

(01:41:47):
conservation efforts and staff sacrifice molecular analysis confirmed the gecko belongs to the
endemic citrodactylus caciencis group this finding raises asam citrodactylus species counts to five

(01:42:08):
wow emphasizing the urgent need for continued field service in the states hel ecosystems to save
gods it unique and vital ecological heritage I'll see if there's an image of this
there is where there is yeah you I can probably you you're already there so yeah okay I can also share

(01:42:30):
it if you want to okay yeah this is the new gecko very interesting very interesting what it's
actually interesting that they were able to honor the forest department as well while naming it so
it shows you know because I think a lot of people who work with the forest department it seems like

(01:42:52):
really thankless job because the animals can't thank them and so you know they work tirelessly in
the forest so that way it's I think a nice little gift for them also in a motivation to keep going
that there is you know an animal named after the forest department that is very cool um yeah

(01:43:14):
and it's really nice that and it's a really cute cute small gecko the patterns are really cute
is a new adorable deep deep sea fish swims interview this is again a report from New York times
another discovery a new deep sea fish the bumpy snail fish has been discovered over 10,000 feet

(01:43:43):
down in off the california coast we were just talking about the california coast and calp forests
so this fish has been discovered there the find resulted from a Monterey Bay Aquarium research institute
expedition with the species later examined and reported by researchers at sunygenesco marine biologist

(01:44:08):
mcenzie getting a described the fish as adorable it is very adorable and magnus sharing her screen
offering a counterpoint to the common perception of these creatures as frightening monsters oh this
is a deep sea fish okay I mean some of them are very far frightening that is true but yeah this

(01:44:29):
is very cute while many deep sea animals require alien-like adaptations like gelatinous bodies to
survive extreme pressure and darkness this discovery showcases a gentler side the bumpy snail fish was
one of the three new snail fish fish species identified from the expedition snail fish are a diverse

(01:44:52):
family of about 450 450 species inhabiting everything from tide pools to the ocean's deepest
trenches very interesting very very interesting this is one of the deeper one and this is a video
video that's playing so you can see the new fish that's been yeah this is not a photo so you can see

(01:45:15):
obviously I think again it boils down to the same thing because it has big eyes so it's
considered cute even though it's not very colorful but it has big big eyes but yeah I mean it's
nice because I think the ocean still has so many mysteries and this is one of the mysteries that we
know and it's a beautiful slow-mo video that someone's taken so that we can like appreciate the

(01:45:37):
beauty of this new fish that they've seen now obviously we do not know what would exactly
yeah then there would need to be more research confirming its habitat like patterns habitat etc etc
but that would have been probably taken from the teams you know died submarine and whatever

(01:46:00):
diving apparatus they were using as well because I don't yeah 10,000 feet is deep deep very deep
yeah but I know you said in the starting that there are there are different kinds of snail fish and
there are some which are just of the shore and then the some that are really deep ocean
things yeah yeah yeah there is another discovery do you want to speak about that sure the chest

(01:46:29):
so there's a rare chestnut bee that have that has been discovered at the N.Y. or
or church research station a rare chestnut mining bee once thought possibly extinct in New York
what was discovered by the ESF pollinator ecologist Molly Jacobson at a SU N.Y. ESF research station

(01:46:50):
in Syracuse this July so this marks the first confirmed sighting in central New York and only the
state's second known population overall the solitary ground nesting bee is a pollen specialist
relying exclusively on chestnut and chinkwapin flowers now I want to see what chinkwapin is it sounds
really cute which were devastated by chestnut glide in the early 1900s leading to its last

(01:47:17):
recorded sighting in 1904 though Jacobson discovered a population best gestor country in 2003
2023 the Syracuse fine is significant it's the first north of the Hudson Valley expanding the
bee's known range and indicating its potential persistence in managed urban orchards so there is

(01:47:39):
so this bee was found this bee is solitary for some reason because I've always assumed that
bees were in colonies that's what they call them right um yeah like hives yeah yeah where they have a
queen bee and they're all together and they're all working I mean again that's generalizing a species

(01:48:02):
I think only the honey bee kind of family they're the other ones who are sort of stay in those
groups but yeah very very interesting and I think entomology in general goes unchecked because
again megapona is some some the things that is projected mostly in the media and popular media

(01:48:28):
etc so this is another very cool discovery highlighting yeah bees and insects are huge pollinators so
it's it's great that this this has happened yeah and I think they call chestnut bees not because of
the color but because they feed on chestnut yeah chestnut flowers or chestnut trees and on the

(01:48:53):
chinkwapin flowers I found like a photo of chinkwapin because I did a research so these are all the
chinkwapin flowers and I think actually the one you know you see the fifth photo on the first row
it actually looks like the image on which the bee is sitting on yeah it does yeah so it might

(01:49:13):
actually be sitting on a chinkwapin when they took that photo but either way in great wind because
they have now expanded the what would you say that the bees have now traveled so the scientists
are happy because they were able to see the scientists the bees not where they were actually found
in other areas wherever they found so this is nice because bees are something that are really

(01:49:38):
really really really really important they say that if the bees disappear the humans will disappear
in about eight minutes is that what they say yeah not not not eight minutes but I think yeah pretty soon
yeah humans humans will disappear after the bees yeah pollination nothing just nothing grow
nothing exists nothing yes yeah yeah and then I think to close off uh if you want to talk

(01:50:08):
about the sharp beat yeah I think it's just worth just mentioning maybe one or two lines of it
we don't have to read off the entire thing but there's a pattern that is forming um again we
we brought like we talked about the reports of Shaqme being sold in Brazil and how it

(01:50:29):
how the reporting changed some policies uh or was instrumental in uh bringing that issued
in front of people this is another such thing where um a study has found critically endangered
Shaqs being sold as food in US grocery stores so I feel like there has been a lot of uh and that's

(01:50:50):
why we wanted to sort of mention this as a closing closing thing that there has been this pattern
that is forming with Shaqme and there must be some kind of um commercial uh sort of gear that is
turning which is resulting in Shaqme being the meat of choice for a lot of different areas from

(01:51:12):
North America to South America um so we'll keep a keep a tab on this this kind of story and sort of
report back if there are new um developments but this is like concerning and so we just wanted to
make a mention of that before we close out yeah and I think the most uh shocking thing about this

(01:51:37):
is that they actually have critically endangered Shaqs that are sold as Shaqme so some of the
Shaqs that are being sold are the endangered great hammerheads and scalloped hammerheads which
is really weird for me to hear because everyone knows I mean whoever is in the the diving industry
in the marine industry that the hammerheads are are critically endangered so why would they go

(01:52:01):
hunting for them and put them on the plate so yeah and they're also saying that a lot of food is
just like labeled Shaq or Mako Shaq so they don't know what species the you know the people don't know
what species they're consuming so the consumers don't know what they're purchasing they do not know
how much mercury level or arsenic levels are there um so they just don't know and they just you know

(01:52:27):
consuming it and there's this transparency gap so that obviously puts again like how we spoke
in Brazil that it's put the human citrus and the ocean citrus so for both oops and I I think we're
just surprised that that Shaqme it is just consumed so casually even though everyone knows that one
I don't I don't know about the taste but it has like high levels of mercury and arsenic so it

(01:52:51):
can't be good for humans so why are we in the engineering the Shaqs and why are we in the engineering
ourselves yeah that's that's a question and um yeah this pattern is a this pattern of news reports
that that's coming out is a concerning one um and yeah we definitely have to keep tabs on this

(01:53:13):
just to see if if it doesn't blow out of proportions um and again guys if you if you're if you're
watching this from or listening to this from uh not america just make sure that you don't buy
these exotic kind of meats or shat meat like why why would you buy shat meat just eat eat like good

(01:53:35):
you know well-raised chicken beef poke whatever you want but yeah these kind of things
I think that is a different that is a different debate on together on beef and um it's impact yeah
but don't buy Shaq like buy those things that are commercially farmed and you know whatever
it is yeah in terms of engineering yes definitely in terms of engineering mother um and then as then

(01:53:58):
when you know that the species is already decimating then you also bring them onto your plate
and be like no but I want to also eat them even though it puts me at health risks but I will
want to eat them and then let them also keep dying yeah just just don't do that guys if you if
you're watching this from North America or South America like because Brazil apparently uh will take

(01:54:21):
some time to sort of that industry to die down after the relevant policies are passed but yeah
that he has to hoping that people start saving shat then stop consuming them um I mean as a human
species as Oop said we have commodified already a few animals for our eating purposes um so it

(01:54:43):
is really strange that we would want to keep maybe again it's the rest of the brain that we started
off in the first one about Orcas maybe we just we just want to try everything we just want more
more variety we don't care how the animal is surviving but we want more taste we want more
things to try yeah um cool um on that note um we will slowly start bringing the show to a close um

(01:55:14):
yeah I think we have been trying this new thing where we try to cover more of the news and more
of what's going on so yeah let us know if you like that um we obviously have that long discussion
topics as well but then we want to do more because there's so much happening in this space

(01:55:35):
we want to bring more of the latest latest news to to you as well um again before closing out
next week we have a special guest joining us who'll be talking to us about his research and
on on on um Maccax and um yeah it'll be very interesting so do join us uh next

(01:56:03):
Sunday as well um but that is it for this show uh do subscribe to our youtube channel and follow us
on all the different social media as if you're listening to this later on any of your favorite
podcasting up do make sure that you leave a comment or a review uh don't forget to like this video

(01:56:24):
leave a comment and we will see you next Sunday same time same channel have a good one guys
yes bye bye

(01:56:47):
yeah
and