Toothless JAWS, the future

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to the Wild Bed Show. I'm Megna and I'm Upamuanyu and we have got a great show planned for you.

(00:10):
And obviously we're going to be talking about our headline topic which is toothless jaws the future.
So OCEAN acidification could erode predaters vital weapon, a study finds.
And along with this we're going to talk about how the Manga Bay Shark meat expose in Brazil that we spoke about a few episodes later.

(00:34):
How it calls for a hearing and industry debate. And what else do we have on the roster?
Yeah, we also have how deforestation has been directly affecting or directly killing people and this has been going on for the past 20 years almost.
It was very surprising for me so we'll get into that and we'll talk about that.

(00:58):
There is also this huge ghost net that has been found offshore of Mexico.
We'll talk about that what are ghost nets and why such a big problem we'll talk about those things.
There are also very few other topics here and there as well which we will sort of cover if we have the time.

(01:24):
But yeah, those are the main topics for this big show.

(01:46):
Alright, make an answer me this cows give us milk chickens give us eggs what it is that gives us both.
Like and ex.

(02:07):
Okay, it's a it's it's a grocery store on that.
You can start on your headline topic.
Oh wait, I have one for you, but maybe I'll save it for the next one or do you want to hear it now.
Save it for the next one. We've got one joke.
Okay, fine.

(02:28):
So yes, let's talk about our headline topic toothless joys the future.
Now obviously we had to pick up this topic because you know that this is the 50th anniversary year of the movie joys and for anyone who's watched it growing up, I think that was the turning point or the awareness of you know being scared of sharks.

(02:52):
I don't think people were scared of sharks till this or joys and joys was such a movie that I think made it hard for people to like.
I think it was it was a deciding like people might not have even thought about sharks before that but as soon as joys came into the picture into the sort of pop culture.

(03:13):
Everyone had to think had to make a decision of being scared or not scared of sharks, right?
Yeah, yeah, and I don't know about it, but I remember when I was growing up, I was so scared of sharks after watching joys and my dad made me watch joys one, two and three.
So it wasn't even like, you know, okay fine just one movie let's forget about it. I watched three back to back and I used to think that the deep side of this women pool had sharks and my brother would make fun of it and he would say, oh yeah, you know the pipe that they used to fill the swimming pool.

(03:48):
It has small shark babies that come out of it.
So I had this irrational fear like I'd never seen a shark. I'd never been in the ocean so far, but I still was just scared of sharks.
I mean it's it's not irrational completely. I mean they look pretty scary right that you that much you have to agree with.
Just because the looks scary doesn't mean they are scary. I mean have you have you ever seen a ragged tooth shark.

(04:15):
So they literally look really scary, but they're super scared of humans. So like they have these side of teeth and you can see the teeth and they look super scary. They're called santaing or sharks as well.
And they they you know you try to go to them to try to film them or take a photo and they would just like scatter away. They don't even know they look that scary.

(04:37):
But that's the thing. When we were growing when we were evolving in the African savanna like we had to determine by looking at something whether it would kill us or like if we could survive and attack from them or not.
So that's the hardware wiring that happened in our brain that if something looks scary, it must be scary and stay away from it.

(05:02):
How did our evolution impact our view of something that lives in the ocean while we were a land add a little bit.
No, but it looks scary. It looks scary. That's what I'm saying. It looks scary. It might not have like it doesn't deal with us directly, but it looks scary. That's why we're like okay let's stay away from it. When we went into the ocean.

(05:27):
I mean, I still feel sharks are just very like at least our clear of sharks. That's socially conditioned as opposed to something that's evolutionary like I feel like the snakes.
So I don't know if you've ever seen that study, but monkeys were just shown snake like objects these monkeys who were never exposed to snakes.
So they were always grown up in activities with their never seen a snake, but they put like a longish snake like object and the monkeys were still scared of them which showed that you know it was something that's inbuilt in us.

(05:56):
So sharks that shouldn't be inbuilt in us because we don't really belong in the ocean.
I mean, looks, I think I would just go by the looks because it looks scary. We're like we are scared of it by default.
There might be other things as well that we might not have exposure to growing up. It's like that.

(06:18):
The thing where the people we find attractive, we are bound to trust them more compared to people we not find don't find attractive.
So that's why all the newscasters are very attractive traditionally and everyone who deals with that you know you say the politicians looks for politicians is a pain.

(06:39):
So yeah, but anyway, wait, I'm just going to share my screen and show you ragged.
That is immediately scary. No, look at that. Okay, so this is how the teeth would look like.
Okay, but but also they just don't even come at you like they would just be so scared.

(07:03):
Let me try to find an image that's no, I mean, that's the thing with all predators, right?
Like if you don't come in contact with them or don't like you know disturb them in some way, they will not interact with you.
They will just steer clear most of the times except for polar bears, except for polar bears.

(07:29):
But you know, that's that's the same. So, but anyway, that's a side view for anyone who wants to see.
So they also have these teeth that so if you did not know sharks are amazing that what they do is that their teeth roll off and they fall and the new teeth come in their place.

(07:54):
So they have this mechanism because they need to have research or teeth all the time to hunt.
So this is something I think I don't know about other animals, but I know for sure that sharks can do this and it might be present in other apex predators, but they can actually like you know no actually no like cat family know because you know you might have heard where you know Tiger or lion who loses its teeth not lions, but tigers who loses its teeth.

(08:22):
It's teeth then there's a chance they will become like man eaters because humans are easier praise to catch and they couldn't catch like you know each their own prey etc.
Yeah, but sharks can do that. I think they have like three rows of teeth and then one comes forward the last one starts growing and so on and so forth.

(08:48):
Yes, which is amazing. So you know once in South Africa when we were diving they told us that it was the marine protected area and the only thing we could pick up from there were shark teeth and we used to come across these sand tiger sharks and you know so we would when we would be swimming along we would always see our guides like looking through the sand like sitting through the sand because they would keep looking for the teeth.

(09:15):
So I would make necklaces and sell them and so one time we did that as well and there was a freshly fallen to like right on the surface so I picked it up so I have like a necklace made of that shark tooth and it's like like a like a prized possession for me but imagine I mean like you can pick up shark teeth that's because like they've discarded them and you've seen that freshly discarded shark teeth so that was amazing.

(09:42):
Obviously talking about Joyce let's go back to our topic and talk about why we are saying that they might be toothless in the future. There is an article by Guardian and this article basically talks about how ocean acidification is eroding shark teeth.
So so far what we knew is the shark that was your acidification with affecting other animals like you know corals and clams that had these calcium carbonate shells but we completely forgot that that's the element of you know teeth as well.

(10:19):
So it has been affecting shark teeth but nobody did a study to show how you know these the ocean acidification is affecting predators as well.
So what exactly is ocean acidification it's basically the absorption of CO2 in the ocean and it's an extra absorption of CO2 in the ocean primarily caused by human activities like burning of fossil fuels and other activities.

(10:47):
So there is a limit to which the ocean can absorb and remain pH neutral but if it absorbs even more the pH level drop and it makes the water acidic and when it makes the water acidic it basically compromises the calcium carbonate and the calcium carbonate if it is compromised then shark who's their teeth.

(11:10):
Right yeah I think and for sharks especially I think teeth because a lot of whales and a lot of those kinds of bigger apex predators they just swallow their prey right but for sharks I think teeth is such an important part of their beet hunting strategy or eating strategy like eating.

(11:39):
Not not even a strategy but eating that without their teeth their whole you know diet and how they consume food is is gone pretty much.
Yeah and it's I mean it's not just the sharks imagine you know when we go to the dentist and we come back and you have to eat only soft food you'd realize that how important your teeth are you probably to not realize still them.

(12:08):
So for sharks as well I mean starting line of the article is really funny it's a sharks without teeth might sound like the stuff of dreams to swimmer's on surface but obviously I mean if you do not have apex predators then as we spoke about it a few times you know in our previous episodes as well you need the apex predators to help.

(12:30):
So what happens is that the sharks are at the top and then the sharks consume whatever facial at the bottom so they help not overpopulate this species and they are feeding on the species below and below and below so if the sharks are not there then potentially anything that's just below the sharks they overpopulate and then they would consume everything below them and then everything ties.

(12:56):
So if you don't have shark teeth it is a big big problem. So what exactly the study that is that they found that by 2300 by the year 2300 the pH of the ocean is projected to be 7.3 and right now it's 8.1 so that's a huge drop.

(13:17):
What they did is that they found like freshly fallen teeth in the ocean and then they put them in two tanks one with a pH of 8.1 and one with a pH of 7.3 and what they found was that the 7.3 pH once after I think about eight weeks they found that the 7.3 pH one suffered twice as much damage as the 8.1.

(13:43):
So this is a huge huge difference you know I mean it's twice as faster so sharks might create you know I mean sharks might really suffer unless they learn to adapt if it's a slow change it might be possible for the sharks to adapt but it's too early to say that.
I mean how would they adapt it's chemistry right I don't think there is any adaptation to this unless they figure out a way to swallow their prey like whales do.

(14:12):
Otherwise it's inevitable like if the ocean keeps acidifying and the pH you know keeps reducing then yeah it's chemistry so there's no way they can adapt in terms of like the teeth.
So in the article one of the researcher believes that sharks may adapt by increasing their two replacements and improving strengthening and repair so they might they might start you know their cycles of rotation of the teeth and discarding might become faster but we do not know I mean it is something that they're predicting one of the researchers is predicting because you know you have to be hopeful of well.

(14:54):
But there are certain you know shark shark species that have you like lesser fruit pure rose of teeth and have slower replacement rates so they will be affected the fastest the ones that probably have a lot of rose and they have like this backup they might not face as much problem.
Yeah.

(15:17):
So it is basically that there is a thing called a denticle which is the calcium carbonate portion in a shark tooth and that is what gets damaged.
Right right.
And we want to ask our viewers have you watched jobs and how did you feel after watching jobs and like for you as scared as us and are you still scared like oops or I have you changed into a shark lover like me.

(15:49):
Yeah if you haven't watched jobs I think there are a few countries around the world where they're doing another theatrical release I think that that happened this week.
So yeah if you're living in one of those cities which has a theatrical release of jobs if you haven't watched it go check it out it's a great film.

(16:15):
But also if you did not know and this is a trivia fact that Rodney Fox I think he was either instrumental he was it was him that the movie jobs was based on or he was either.
Something in the movie I'm not sure but Rodney Fox was the reason that jobs was made he was out surfing I think in a shark shark moored him and he had like all of this skin hanging off him and then he had his surgeries and he became a shark advocate to the extent that right now Rodney Fox has shark expeditions happening in Australia where they take you in a cage though.

(16:57):
But they show you great white on the from the floor bed to like the surface and it's called Rodney Fox shark expeditions so the person that they made the movie on probably is a shark advocate despite being more by a shark so the irony of you know jobs.
Yeah and I think great white sharks are the only species of sharks you have you've generally got to be worried about when you're in the ocean if you're not like extremely knowledgeable about their behavior and stuff that's the only shark that or and and like.

(17:37):
And the bullsharks Tiger Fox as well yeah it's like number one great white number two bull and number three tiger but basically they just say like it's just like dogs you know how you say like certain dogs like a pit bull or certain dogs like even sometimes German chapels you cannot predict their behavior because they have this hunting instinct in them so it's the same with the ocean they say that you cannot predict the behavior.

(18:06):
But a lot of times when you go see at least great white sharks and cages they chump the borders and what chummy means is that they pound tuna and then they throw that tuna all across the ocean so because the sharks can smell like fresh food around so they're a little agitated and they're aggravated and that is what they what what causes the sharks to come close to the cages so that time they put you in a cage because they're already really aggressive but there are people who are smam with

(18:35):
white sharks and bullsharks in the open ocean and have had zero issues because you know that time the sharks are not aggressive they're not in hunting mode and they you do not look like prey especially when you're under water.
Yes yes but obviously if you're if you're like a beginner and you know you don't have a lot of knowledge about their behavior and the ocean in general I think yeah that the general advice is

(19:04):
you know seek seek this a burden help from someone who is knowledgeable and also like do take care it's it's nature like in land you know it's it's a light land at least it's in our element but obviously you have to take take that extra care if you're a beginner in that space to be aware of everything not just sharks everything

(19:30):
and also not to like disturb the space of you know other marine mammals our animals our fish as well which actually brings me to the question I find it truly disturbing when people say shark infested waters I mean we don't say human
infested land but we say shark infested waters that is literally their home like does it make you also angry when people use infestation like that.

(19:58):
I haven't really given it a thought I think that it's yeah I wouldn't have given it a thought before right now but yeah I guess it's it would be so funny if you say human
infested land because obviously we are swarming like bees all across the planet I mean I think we do say that no we usually use infestation for like you know if we have had like bees at our home and there's been like a big

(20:28):
high or you use infestation in them okay okay so so the dictionary dispensation of infestation is the presence of an unusually large number of insects or animals in a place typically so as to cause damage or disease so you can't really use that for
humans according to the alternative definition damage no no it's for animals or insects we are and oh my god are you are you taking us out of the

(20:57):
parameter of being of course we are social animal of course we are not animals we humans we humans but yeah yeah I mean I mean when it's their home and that is the only place they can survive you can
not call it infestation like and it's not even like there is a huge number there they are decimating like crazy because we are they're already they have a lot of

(21:22):
pressures of our sharks one we fish them like crazy we hunt them like crazy because we want their fins we want the to drink the shark
fins of secondly we are overfishing the ocean so we are anyway depleting their prey and then thirdly now they're saying that they may not even have teeth I mean I think I think I would really really hate being a

(21:46):
shark because the problems never seem to end yeah yeah I think and also like just no sort of highlighting and repeating that
that message as well where you know if an apex predator's predator vanishes out of an ecosystem or a

(22:13):
food chain then it's absolutely 100% and this is you know proven both theoretically and practically that it will have a
downstream effect where the prey or the fish that we depend on their numbers were depleted without having like in

(22:35):
absence of an apex predator it might increase for some some period of time but soon it will start to fall the the fish that we want to fish and we think
sharks are competing with us for those fish yeah so did you did you know orbs that even though like sharks are D.A.

(22:57):
brakes predators because sharks are lonely and they hunt like you know they're not in groups so orcas can actually rip apart a great white
shirt so when we were in South Africa the shark week people had come to film but the orcas had just entered I think this was

(23:18):
kept down on Johannesburg wherever they were shooting and just just two days back this orca had
shipped apart a great white shark and all the great white sharks and all the other bigger marine life are just
vanished so they actually like you know the sharks are like the muff like orcas are like the mafia of the sea
so like they come in everything else bounces so it's like that and I mean even those sharks are up there

(23:43):
when it comes against a pack of orcas they are just as helpless as any other animal see any animal that
is organized and lives in a group will be stronger than a lone animal like solitary animals so

(24:03):
there is a group of orcas there's a port of orcas that have successfully hunt that that successfully
hunt blue whales the largest animal to ever live on planet earth so I couldn't even have imagined if I
didn't see it happening but orcas can hunt anything they're like the wolf of the seas they can hunt

(24:29):
anything but I think with whales I still understand if orcas hunt them no matter how big they are
their defense mechanisms aren't very great but with sharks they can bite the orcas back like
with whales they can just probably brush against them or they can hit them with their tail or just use
their weight but with sharks they literally have like these teeth to dig into but either way like I

(24:52):
mean we'll do a segment on orcas sometime else because yeah they're amazing creatures as well they're
like the pandas of the ocean black and white but yeah um yeah by looks by looks they're there then
nowhere near a panda by they do look cute they look like a rubbery toy like you know all the

(25:13):
videos of them they look so shiny so yeah and probably they if they're agitated enough and they're
I think you know motivated enough they are probably like more more dangerous even to humans compared to
any other no there is not even a single known orca attack in the wild so there have been orca

(25:40):
attacks in the world and aquariums and other places that is because the the orcas get really
frustrated being in the tanks but in the wild there's not even a single attack on a human that's
good to know that's very good to know yes because then you can go for like an orcas swimming tour now
you don't have to be so scared of orca no no I am not scared of orcas I'm only scared of sharks

(26:06):
I think I think it comes down to how how they look and how my brain perceives it perceives it
you know a combination of pop culture and maybe some bit of primal programming as well
so yeah it's only sharks I'm going to tell you guys a story like for me and oops we're going to

(26:26):
Tonga just swim with the whales and this one day they had mantas come as well so they said okay
you know like get off here and see the mantas since then with the mantas it was amazing and then
they again I think made a call for dolphins but it turned out to be a shark so till that time
oops is really excited that oh yes dolphins dolphins let's get into the water and the moment

(26:48):
you heard no it might be a shark he was just like no no no I'm not going into the water
yeah no no that that's something that I am trying to work on it like you know if there's a great
white or if there's a bull shark or if there is a tiger shark or something I definitely would
you know still be very scared but I don't need to be scared of like reef sharks or anything like

(27:13):
that so yeah working on that working on that true I think this is a good time for me to segue
to the topic that's already you know linked to this topic so for people who remember and a few
weeks back our headline topic was that Brazil is giving shark meat to its preschoolers and its

(27:33):
hospitals and other places so this was a mongave investigation that showed that this is what
Brazil is doing and for oops and me we were both really shocked to find out that shark meat was
just given where then we found out that it was basically this scraps and left over that was going
to Brazil so it was cheaper which is why they were importing shark meat because they had already

(27:56):
exhausted the shark meat around their own country so because of this expose now a Brazilian
lawmaker is calling for a parliamentary hearing so this has revealed that you know all this
just struck me that they're buying it will be up for parliamentary debate which is amazing because

(28:17):
imagine you do all this research you put in an article that is exactly what you want to see
you want to see change and this is what is happening here yeah I mean this this goes out to the
also to the power power of journalism in general I think ultimately the decisions are made by

(28:42):
the courts and the lawmakers and politicians for what policies shape a country
but and those things can only be impacted in terms of how those politicians perceive the
entire issue or if the politicians are oftentimes like for one person or for one even even for a team

(29:07):
of people it's often very impossible nearly impossible to have all the information right
you know to themselves so journalism plays that it fills that gap where you know the
channels come in and make it into this coincisement and ready to consume article and fortunately this

(29:32):
Brazilian lawmaker who has called for this parliamentary hearing would have come or someone in a
steam would have come across this this Manga Bay investigation and they would have said okay let's
go run with it whatever the intentions be whether they want to win the next elections or they're

(29:54):
running on this platform whatever be the intentions the outcome at least for now is one that is very
favorable for the sharks for the natural world yeah and it's very interesting just the starting of
the article it's the third expert saying that this investigation shows that there's a greater

(30:16):
extinction risk for the sharks but the industry groups are saying that you know no no no even though
it is alarmist like we need to defend like they're defending the shark meat safety and sustainability
despite what I mean of course of course I mean if they were not defending that would be that

(30:36):
would be a surprise for me and that would be I don't know maybe a problem as well because we
want that those different voices in any any kind of debate you can't just have a singular voice that's
that's the beat any from any side but when you have a singular voice that's more concerning

(30:59):
in a public discourse true and on the in this article if you see it says that they identified more
than thousand shark meat tenders issued some 2000 for 1000 so that is like 2000 different fishermen
or to however they were tendering to invest like you know to the to different industries but thousand

(31:21):
shark meat tenders within 20 years across 10 Brazilian states and the recipients were 15900
public institutions based on a review of the tender documents and obviously a lot of them were
schools they were mainly procured for schools but also for military bases homeless shelters
maternity wards elderly care centers and other institutions I think what shocks me a lot is

(31:47):
that obviously it's not even a win-win situation in this so it's like I mean obviously it's a loss
in the shark it's a loose loose situation like what I mean is like you know it's not a win-win
situation like in the sense it's a loose loose battle for the sharks because you're hunting down
these sharks which are very necessary for the oceans but on the other hand also you're going

(32:10):
and feeding the shark meat to like like like schoolers preschoolers schoolers and you're also
feeding them to like the army you're feeding them to maternity wards to elderly people to homeless
shelters okay homeless I understand the poor people they don't have a choice but everyone else
you're putting their health also at risk like I mean I'm not saying that homeless people should

(32:34):
get the same respect but but homeless people don't get the choice but others obviously they get
choices and they're still you know feeding the shark meat which has led an arsenic that we spoke
about a few weeks back so health impacts are huge so it's like nobody is winning in the situation

(32:55):
and still this is happening so only only the people who are selling it I think or for a profit
and and that profit might be like we don't exactly know the numbers but I wouldn't be surprised
if the profit margin is like 1% or 2% or not even 1% like 0.8% 0.5% that squeezed margin is oftentimes

(33:19):
what these these kinds of people people are going for and they're like how much can we milk from
this this situation yeah so I think I don't know the margins and export import but if it is that
low is it lucrative yes that's the thing that's that's what surprises me like we as a society

(33:45):
we go for these tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny margins as well like we're like we're trying to squeeze
as much as possible like in every situation not only in Brazil in every situation every country
like the sometimes these margins are not even worth working that hard for but then all these
lobbyists and all these groups will go after chase those small smalls and and even get in fights

(34:12):
you know based on these tiny tiny margins so that's that that surprises me a lot
that is that is so true because I think I mean one of the things for me with this is that
you know I mean one that shot me is dangerous for you but I think the second thing is that one

(34:35):
amazing thing also I feel about this is that because because Nonga Bey has exposed now people
are talking about it and that's what you need like I mean that's what we are also trying to do
here when we do this show we want people to talk about these topics so whatever topics and especially
with wildlife what we feel is that a lot of people do not talk about wildlife enough or do not know

(34:57):
about wildlife enough so you need to bring that into conservation to a conversation so that you
can bring conservation into you know the picture so until we're not talking about it we will not
be able to protect it and this is what Nonga Bey has done with this so go Nonga Bey you know like
do more of these exposures so that there is more talk and there is more change

(35:21):
yes I think the environmental journalism and you know reporting on these kinds of things
it's becoming slowly becoming more and more important because
this is only going to keep increasing these kinds of exploitation and especially with the

(35:43):
currency in of the global you know political dialogue as well different countries are focusing
on these kinds of things and and sort of bringing back those often archaic ideas of exploiting the
nature I thought we moved on from that but a lot of countries are bringing back those ideas

(36:08):
and and sort of any and most countries in the world I think you know prioritizing
everything that we do over nature I mean some things I like we of course have to prioritize
ourselves but not at the cost of everything that we you know that we take from nature right yeah

(36:36):
that that is true and you know I mean in this article it says that the trade-in shark meat as
opposed to shark fins is generally murky which scientists only just beginning to delve into it
so in the wake of the investigation conservationists and researchers told Nonga Bey
they either hadn't been aware of the extinct of Brazil shark meat procurements or didn't know

(36:58):
they existed at all so this is surprising because even researchers and scientists who were probably
researching into shark fins and shark meat and you know other kind of things most people did not
even know that Brazil was doing this so you know you need these kind of exposures so that this
country could one obviously save its people but to I mean and the more important things save the

(37:23):
but as it comes to humans I mean you you need to give the human angle to humans to want to save
them and I think as you said like good journalism by Nonga Bey and and also like very
commendable actions by the lawmakers there as well whoever called for this parliamentary hearing

(37:49):
you know they they they want to make this an an issue and an talking point in their democracy
so yeah I think it's very important that these these kinds of journalism keep happening and the
government or anyone they don't try to stifle this sort of a voice because obviously

(38:17):
that you know in stifling these voices a lot of people might benefit from it but we have to that's
why press the independence of press and the freedom of press is so so so much important
yeah and I think I mean with journalism and such kind of exposures it's really difficult so I know

(38:42):
I was talking to this shark researcher in India who had corona and you know basically there's this
I think there's a lot of illegal shark fishing as well but there's some legal shark fishing in
underman's where people go into the deep sea and then they bring back these you know shark so

(39:04):
what she was saying was that you know she had she it took a lot of time to earn the trust that she's
not going to expose them so like for the little photos that she was allowed to take it was like
under complete supervision she had to be completely like you know they had to completely trust her
so it is really hard to get into like the tigers den and do these kind of exposures to actually go

(39:25):
into these kind of areas be able to you know take data shoot photos get these tender documents I
mean it must have been such a big deal to do this and it must have taken a long time to be able to
come up with such an exposure and and we have all seen I hope documentaries like The Cove

(39:47):
or more recently although it was a little sensationalist seaspiracy and such such things so yeah
I think journalism has that power and we must must must if if we see in in our lifetime
wherever you know any of the viewers or listeners are joining from if you see that

(40:13):
question brought into the public discourse about you know some somehow curbing the extent of
journalism or curbing the freedom of press you know make it make it one of your issues as well where
you know you just don't let anyone do that because look at this this is these are the kinds of

(40:37):
outcomes a journalism good journalism has you know turning it turning a loose loose situation
that's making me ever saying into win win for everyone yep and I think I mean I'm hoping that whatever
happens in the parliament it happens in the favor of the sharks and the people so here is to

(41:00):
hoping and let's hope that the next update that we give you is something positive where Brazil
has actually taken an action against procuring shark meat especially by importing it I mean imagine
that you're importing like tons and tons of shark meat to feed your people there must be so much
local food available but you're importing shark meat like crazy to feed the people so I'm hoping

(41:24):
here is hoping that things are better in the future that is that is something definitely to hope for
coal should we move on to the next one then Megna yes of course um yeah so the next one is um
again this was when we saw the story this was again completely out of a radar and I think

(41:52):
these these kinds of studies that's why these kinds of studies and these kinds of reporting is
very important as well so this is a report from the Guardian as well where it's sort of is headline
deforestation has killed half a million people in past 20 years study fines so it goes on to say

(42:14):
a study a new study reveals deforestation has caused over half a million
heat related deaths which is kind of kind of makes sense in the tropics over the past two decades
published in nature climate change researcher researchers have found localized warming

(42:34):
from land clearance reducing shade and rainfall while increasing fire risk is responsible for
28,330 annual fatalities the localized warmings adding up to three degrees three degrees centigrade

(42:54):
for 2.6 million people contributes over a third of regional warming in areas like Amazon, Congo
and Southeast Asia beyond global global climate change effects so I think this is the this is the
point we were so surprised about was that you know the the effects of climate change we all

(43:15):
understand this but we when we think about climate change we think about it you know something
a little bit detached where it's like oh the climate change is going to affect the
natural world first and then that is going to come back and bite bite at us but it's going to
first affect the natural world and then it is going to come to us we kind of frame it like that

(43:41):
in our heads but this goes on to show and that's why it was so surprising that it is it hasn't been
a very frontline discussion this you know that's why I was very surprised by it because this is a
big number and even though it is over over a 20 year period but still half a million people in

(44:06):
the past when in that 20 year period is a big number and I'm not sure why you know more governments
and more politicians are not talking about this I mean it's also surprising for me it talks about
how Congo is one of the countries affecting and if you remember and if our viewers remember we

(44:30):
literally spoke about how Congo wants to clear a huge area and you know it's I think it wants to
do the oil mining in this area and it wants to give that up so I mean it's already facing the
strapper look here and instead of instead of the conservation approach that they were initially
taking the the Kinshasa corridor and other national parks that it has instead of protecting that now

(44:56):
they're doing you know and that is what is happening even in Amazon I think a lot of a lot of
countries now I mean Amazon is like in a constant threat like it's because it's so huge we kind of
don't understand its scale so we're like oh we'll take some more we'll take some more we'll take
some more you know oh yeah this reminds me of this one incident so we went to this place in

(45:23):
Indonesia called the pink beach so what happens is that there are corals that were pink and they got
crushed okay and then they wash up on the beach and the sand gets this pinkish hue because of the
little coral particles that wash up on this beach now what has happened is when tourists come
obviously the guides tell them please don't touch the sand please don't take the sand with you
I mean touch the sand not you walk on the beach but they tell you don't take the sand with you

(45:48):
but everyone like you know it takes a little bit of the sand because it's pink and you don't
see it anywhere so what has happened is everybody in their head thinks that oh it's just a little
bit of sand you know what what harm can it cause but then when everyone starts taking that sand now
that now that beach doesn't look as pink that's because everyone's taken it and this is what is

(46:10):
happening like everyone feels like oh it's just these two three trees trees that are being cut
or just this one corridor or just this one highway but before you know it the forest is gone
yes I think I think everyone like that that unfortunately like that's how we behave you know

(46:32):
there was you know as me now I was saying there is a similar story of like a king who asked
you know everyone to fill this huge tumbler with milk and you know overnight and everyone wakes
up to find that it's the complete tumbler is filled with water because everyone taught someone else
would put in the milk so yeah I think and concrete like concrete is one of those things that oh my

(46:58):
god like that's why we call it like a concrete infested you know jungle to like for we've we've
con termed that for you know urban urban urban spaces concrete is a very huge absorber of heat so

(47:19):
and even like glasses like glass buildings and glass structures we want that sunlight so we turn
our offices and houses into like these greenhouses where you know everything is made of glass and then
you know yeah it just it just absorbs a lot of heat that means if you don't have trees there's no

(47:43):
way for the heat to dissipate and nowhere nowhere for the heat to go and it just keeps trapped on the
surface and even like dark roads they are a huge absorber of heat on top of being like literally
black which is like the color that absorbs the most heat I think without trees that means that

(48:10):
heat just stays in that surface level and yeah it's you know sure enough that people are getting
killed from the sea I think the problem here is there are two three problems here one obviously when
heat is killing people it's probably killing people who do not have proper shelters or the shelters
that they have unmade of materials like tin which probably make the accommodation really really hot

(48:36):
so we're talking about people who do not have at all or at best or even worse yeah yeah
certain is as the stores only right yeah in sheet yeah oh I was talking about as the stores okay sorry
not in but um but I mean the the whole point is that they do not have access to better resources uh
you know like let's say a house that has that can cool things down so I think the people who are

(48:59):
suffering the most of the ones who are either homeless or have shelters that cannot support the heat
so when it is when it is this you know when it's just the poor people people don't
tend to talk about them don't tend to be affected by them so even though this article talks about
20 million people dying by deforestation it will not hit people because it's not someone close

(49:22):
that they have lost today for a station yes yes um no 20 years half a million people in 20 years
not 20 million people oh I'm sorry sorry sorry yeah but anyway that that is a big number as well and
that's that's what we were asking when we were sort of deciding on the discussion question
so we were asking if deforestation directly kills why isn't it treated as a global public health

(49:48):
crisis and I think Magna has answered that question that you know how we frame and see the
low strata of society um you know the economically challenged strata of society um it's very
different from how we see and the economically you know unchallenged like economically free

(50:14):
family society privilege part of society um and yeah I think we as much as we try to escape that
we are frame of mind as such that um we will you know first give them up as um sacrifice

(50:38):
but it's it's not just the it's not just the poor people like I think obviously I don't want to
bring controversy into it but when I mean we know one of the biggest wars that's happening and we
know that there's a lot of genocide that's happening but we don't talk about it enough like we're
okay with with the whole area being gone you know I mean it's just being bombarded and nobody

(51:01):
talks about it anymore people were affected for the first 15 to 20 days and I think this is what
happens with everything like we are not affected enough like we affected but for a short
short period of time and then when that short period of time goes away like let's say this
article has come so people might talk about oh my god this is what the forestation is doing

(51:22):
but then after a few days then again they would forget so like like you know right now oops in India
the rainfall has been crazy so like roads have been washed out landslides have happened
certain areas are completely blocked off because you know the monsoon's been this crazy that bridges
have fallen and the rivers have been very very furious this year so you know but there's someone

(51:45):
I follow on Instagram who is in the mountains and he was basically saying the problem is that right
now people will talk about it they'll talk about change but the moment it you know it's September
October and the monsoon has has passed away then people will stop talking because you see drier days
and drier spells and you don't see any problems again people won't talk about it till the next monsoon

(52:07):
when people start getting affected and that is how the humans are like we only talk about it till we
are affected by it and in real time and once it passes we don't care our attention span is very very
very very short yeah that that is the unfortunate truth and and with I think with the

(52:33):
these the silence blaring all the time in our pockets as well I think that attention span
is getting even smaller and smaller and smaller so there is some primal engineering there as well
like our brains are not like our brains are hardwired not to think about death for more than like
two minutes or three minutes because if we think about our death and our the end of our life it will

(52:59):
just become too depressing you know our brains are hardwired that way but even with that it's
not as bad as you know the siren that's always blaring in our pocket and that has I think made that
you know that five minutes into five seconds of of attention span but what is more surprising for me

(53:24):
is that in real time also we have seen areas changing like how I told you like the city that I grew
up in the town it was just a jungle like there was literally nothing you could see like peacocks and
mungoos and snakes and monitor lizards like huge monitor lizards and that is what I grew up with
and now you don't see any of them like there are only certain pockets I think you would see there is

(53:48):
some forest area but it's far away from the city like people now go to hike those places in the
weekends so you know I mean I have seen that's like the escape from from day to night exactly and
I mean I have seen in real time how this city has just gone from a nice foresty area to just
all buildings and most people might have seen that happening with a lot of areas across the world so

(54:14):
does it not pain them to see that kind of development and do they not want you know that foresty
area back because green really soothes your eyes so why do you want all these you know huge structured
buildings obviously people need to walk but at what cost does this come and like why do we never
see the cost yes I think that's the thing that's the thing this article is also trying to highlight that

(54:39):
you know and I'd be really interested to find out that if there is there is a measure that any of
these countries are thinking or if there is a smart solution to do this whole problem you know
Singapore has done this beautifully I think with how they have integrated you know

(55:05):
the gardens by the bay it's sort of engineering and bioengineering marvel to sort of go and see
how they've integrated that ecosystem right at the heart of the city Singapore is applauded in
many global forums for this not only gardens by the bay but how they have brought back a lot of

(55:28):
greenery back into into the the there are one spaces so but and I believe there there must be there
must be a very smart solution to I mean I feel like okay maybe Singapore has done the gardens by

(55:49):
the bay but when you think of Singapore you think of buildings like you don't think of gardens by the
bay yes no no that that's that's what I'm saying like they have done it in a way where they don't have
to choose between development and you know maintaining those green spaces and maintaining that

(56:10):
natural environment pure air etc etc they you know so so I'm just saying like if you go
for to these kind these one of these countries which some some countries might still be in the
developing phase and then you say that you can't do this then they might have this allergic

(56:34):
reaction and they might have a feeling that say oh you have exploited all the nature that you have
wanted for all these years you have become developed you've become so rich as a country and then
you're not and telling us not to do the same so that's what I'm saying these governments might not
agree to the entire thing so the they I believe there might be a very true and very smart solution to

(56:57):
this where that country doesn't have to choose between development and maintaining these green spaces
I think you know this reminds me of this one incident of friend of ours I think either
posted on facebook or somewhere once and they said oh my god why can't there just be an AC

(57:18):
outside like air conditioning outside why do we have to suffer in the heat outside so
there's another fasten rod below that yeah yes that's what you call trees and that person was like oh
yeah oh my god I didn't even think of it like I mean if you had a load of trees and anybody who's
experienced this when it's really hot outside if you stand under the shade where there's like a bunch

(57:40):
of trees you can you automatically feel the difference it's almost like four to five degrees cooler
so it's like the natural air conditioning that you have but we just don't care about the natural
air conditioning forget about like not caring about the trees we don't care about the humans because
half a million humans have died but we still do not care and this is only only in a few areas I

(58:03):
mean this guardian article is not even covering the other countries like I think in countries like
India I'm sure the heat kills a lot of people as well but it's not covering other countries so if
we take it as a global scale the number the half a million people number would be different in
the 20 years as opposed to what it's showing just in these areas yes but and I think it's very

(58:25):
important to recognize that this study has recognized these half a million people being directly
killed by as a result of these these actions like heat waves and so on and so forth so
so I think it's it's time that someone I really hope that someone picks this up and finds a very

(58:49):
smart solution where you know there are some trees we know of that provide extra shade like
their shades are especially cooler than compared to other trees no but the trees need to be
indigenous as well right oops because you need to look at which forest you're trying to say I'm

(59:11):
just trying to say like in urban spaces those trees do not probably need to be indigenous I'm just
trying to say that a developing country like Congo or any country this Southeast Asia would not be
very accepting of the idea that you know they have to choose development versus you know by
getting there is like there are a few factors as well right oops like if you're going to

(59:36):
plant a tree for a shade then you need to also see the amount of water it needs now local plants
are adapted to the water cycle so like how we we spoke about it in the last episode that
there are trees in India that just depend on the monsoon so you know that's what I'm saying that's
what I'm saying I'm that's what I'm saying that you know I hope someone finds a smart solution for

(59:58):
this I really hope that that where it's it's a no-brainer for all these different
countries that are affected in in this study that are found to be to have been affected by this
in this study and also other spaces other countries other cities are able to replicate that as well

(01:00:19):
some kind of smart solution where it's a win-win I think one of the important things is at least with
New Zealand what I feel as even though I'm not in agreement with their conservation practices but
apart from that I think with their greening and saving their forests and their green cowers

(01:00:39):
except the pasteurized land that is up for cows and everything I think they're doing a great job
because you know I mean even though the country is small but they have like one highway across
the entire you know when you get out of the cities there's just like this one road going and one
road coming so they've kept like really narrow highways they haven't like cut through mountains a

(01:01:01):
lot so they've not compromised their topography or they've not compromised their forests I feel
as opposed to other countries yes I think that's that's a really interesting take but as you said like
the country's small and I think they have this provision of only opening they've only opened up

(01:01:25):
1% of the land for any kind of human habitation or settlement and then a few more person to person
for you know ranching and you know all the cowherding animal husbandry etc so I think for a small
country it's still achievable but for a growing country especially countries in Southeast Asia

(01:01:46):
which all suffer from the same problem of overpopulation I think and and some some sort of countries
in the Amazon basin and then Congo maybe some other african countries as well I think it's
yeah I feel like it will be challenged to solve I think then this solution is obviously

(01:02:14):
first working on overpopulation right yes I think every country should work on that every country
regardless regardless of that regardless of that like let's say in India there are areas that you
see that you get instead of a two-lane highway it becomes a four-lane or an eight-lane and it's still

(01:02:36):
congested so obviously one you keep making wider roads but if you're not going to tackle the problem
of overpopulation that is going to be a problem second that is not the solution to development like
even if you're making a two-lane highway but you maintain the two-lane highway like top notch like
make sure there are no potholes it's maintained amazingly well like the speed would be maintained like

(01:02:58):
you know I mean in New Zealand I remember we drove at 100 constantly even though if it's a
two-lane highway so you made it to places on time obviously the people are less or there are
lesser cars on the road but you had the rule to maintain a certain speed and you maintain it
also because the roads were great so instead of trying to like expand to four lanes and then

(01:03:18):
make them all like you know with speed breakers and bumps and you know like potholes everywhere just
try to like you know just keep those highways just two-lane or four-lane maximum but maintain them
like amazingly well yeah I think all of those will be factors but I think like we have to

(01:03:42):
like we don't won't have any other option than to plant more and more trees and trees
I think is a really simple solution to this this over heating problem because
they by default they will provide that shade and and obviously absorb the carbon dioxide I mean

(01:04:03):
that is also the carbon dioxide as well yeah that is what is also causing the heating of the
or the temperature rise and ocean acidification now obviously we can't like make a bigger ocean the
ocean is there but at least with the trees we can make the change because we are the ones who
deforested so we are the ones we have to bring back the trees as well so we have to make those

(01:04:26):
efforts to reforest 100% 100% and I think urban spaces in general not only these in these countries
mention but urban spaces in general need 100% are in a need whether it be any country any need of
more green cover so yeah if anyone who is listening to our show has got a really good idea in this space

(01:04:58):
you know please bring it up to the to your to your respective governments and you know let's let's
try and try and see how we can increase green recover in in our cities I really like this there's

(01:05:22):
there's a project that in New York which has actually mapped all of the trees that are in New York
every single tree that is in New York and if you go into that map I'll try to find that map
maybe I'll if I find it I'll share in this show or I can share a link later on but

(01:05:47):
if you go if you zoom zoom out you can literally see which of the different boroughs and which of the
different count sort of spaces in New York City is greener more greener compared to others and
also if because you have that map you can keep track of if anyone is illegally chopping off any

(01:06:14):
tree or not and they have this they of course it's it's not a super high priority but it is on the
list of things for New York City to keep on planting more and more trees every year so yeah I think
those kinds of things simple efforts by the local governments can help a lot and yeah it's it's always

(01:06:42):
keeping that space in every new development for a green space for a lot of trees of course there
are more qualified people who you know work in urban planning and how to include more nature in
in urban spaces more qualified people than us but I really do hope that it becomes a trend of

(01:07:06):
including more and more and more and more nature into our living spaces um yeah true I mean
what we can also do is just go for these forestation drives that happen
planned a few trees make sure that whatever trees you're planning go and check up on them
and you know talk talk about how trees are important I mean we all know at least we all have trees

(01:07:30):
in our surroundings in our backyards in our societies aware of you staying and you
know the difference so even the society that I'm staying in like the side that faces the road
you can find a difference that the back of it where you have all trees there's at least a two
three degrees remarkable difference and that is only because of the coward so that makes a big big

(01:07:55):
difference so people need to take that into account that we need more trees not more people not more
roads but more trees yeah okay um do you want to pick the next topic Megha sure I can do that so we
actually did not cover this when we were talking about the topics but this is also really important

(01:08:18):
and just like Jo's had its 50th anniversary the whale shark day if I'm not wrong was either yesterday
or day before yesterday but it was the it was a whale shark day so we're going to talk about whale
sharks yesterday yeah 30th August yes yesterday yes I international whale shark day yes and I've

(01:08:39):
seen so many posts and for people who do not know what a whale shark is oops can you share a photo
I can so it's it's like they say it's the biggest fish so it's neither a whale nor a shark
so I do not know who tried to name it maybe they were just as confused as everyone else so whale

(01:09:02):
sharks are this huge fish and they are polka dotted they're beautiful and an international study
now has shown that nearly 80% of whale sharks in one of these in in one of Indonesia's marine
tourism hotspot have human caused scars so this is actually an area called

(01:09:25):
senderawasi bay or kentrawasi bay I might be getting the pronunciation wrong but
this area is one of the areas basically I don't know if you've spoken about this in the previous
episode oops but whale sharks are one of the one of the animals in the sea just like sharks

(01:09:47):
that are baited like so they are fed regularly and what happens with whale sharks is that because it's
such a big part of tourism right people come to see these whale sharks basically yeah yes so this
is what is happening with with whale sharks is that they are being you know used as um wait let me

(01:10:12):
just share this oh you're already sharing it okay thanks yeah yeah so with the whale sharks what
happens is that people want to swim with them now they are the biggest fish species so they want
to see them so what these fishermen are doing it that they're feeding them fish so whale sharks are
filter feeders so they usually feed on plankton and smaller fish they do not consume anything bigger

(01:10:35):
just like do you want to briefly explain what filter feeders are oh yes so filter feeders are
basically animals that do not um chomp on their meal they do not eat it they just filter it so what
they do is like manta rays and uh some whales and these whale sharks if you've ever seen videos of
whale sharks if you can find a video oops just whale sharks gulping that you know there these

(01:10:59):
videos have you seen them like just at the top oh yes yes yes they'll just open their mouths yeah I
just want to show a video to the yeah I'll search for one yeah so what happens is that they're almost
what like they're almost vertical they're looking up and they're trying to like filter the water
through their gills and through their body and then they only consume whatever is left you know so

(01:11:24):
they just want the tiny uh fish and they want the tiny plankton because that is all that they
can actually consume without having to chomp on that oh yeah so this this is the this is a great
example so this I think in this video obviously it's going for plankton because you cannot see any
of the fish and it's exceptionally close to the the diver but this is what the whale sharks will do

(01:11:47):
and this in this video it's still not completely vertical but in some videos that completely
vertical when they know that okay like you know have to concentrate on the species but it's a
beautiful video where you can see you know how they open and close their mouth to filter feed so
these yeah and they'll just and the the water will just you know filter out of their gills and stuff

(01:12:12):
you might have seen whales you know might have seen in documentaries whales that's why they have
that huge skin under they'll just take a big mouthful of water and then close them out there the
underside of their mouths will just um blow up with all that water and then slowly they have these

(01:12:35):
sifters for teeth they're like these uh wily brushes and um all the water will get out slowly
out of the those brushes and the fish and krill and whatever will stay inside their mouths so
yeah whale sharks are filter feeders and you you'll see how their bottom bottom jaw is getting

(01:12:57):
you know inflated with the water and then the water is escaping from their gills because it's a fish
it can escape from their gills but obviously whales are mammals so yeah don't have gills
but anyway but so what happens with these whale sharks are just like other fish what happens is
if you feed them they tend to stay around the area and whale sharks also are migratory species

(01:13:21):
instead of migrating they start staying in the area and what happens is obviously the two
operators that are dependent on them for their tourism they make a killer living out of them
because I mean I wouldn't say killer killer but they make a living out of them because uh you know
people are coming it's as an interest for the whale sharks to be just there right yes yes but

(01:13:42):
it's not now for the whale sharks the main problem that is happening here is that they have human
scars and this is mainly caused by I think boats because there are boats that are operating in this
area and what happens is that people do not take into consideration that if the whale sharks are
just seeing in the area that you have to be more careful about this feed and about how uh you know

(01:14:06):
careful you have to be and with whale sharks because there are huge species they're so big they take
up to 30 years to become sexually mature so I mean imagine that you cannot have a whale shark baby
till you're 30 so you know that's a huge sexually mature age so populations can only recover slowly
from the threats that whale sharks have so it's even more important to protect them because

(01:14:31):
they have such a slow sexually matureing age yeah I think uh we we mentioned this a couple of
episodes ago as well um where we have to make sure that the animals which have a long gestation
period or which take a really long time to reach reproductive maturity we have to take extra care

(01:14:59):
of those animals because um or or that have less number of offspring you know which whale sharks also
um do so yeah we we really have to take care of those animals extra extra care of those
those animals um yeah so it basically talks about how this hurts you know how many how many um

(01:15:25):
like offspring I don't know what whale shark babies are called but how many offspring
swills sharks have uh but anyway I'm not sure I I'm not sure if it I don't even know
if that is a very interesting question I do not even know if they if they lay eggs or if they
just have babies um okay it says they're not mammals but apparently they get pregnant like mammals

(01:15:58):
they have a big litter okay 300 round about 300 pups they're called pups
um yeah even shark shark babies are called pups I think yeah yeah um cool okay anyway
but what happens with I think with what happens with a huge litter always is that um and this is known

(01:16:21):
so whenever you have a huge litter that means that the mumps are not around to take care of the babies
and these babies have really low survival skills um like in the sense that they cannot survive so same
with turtles even though they lay like 500 eggs per turtle but when the turtles hatch and they go
towards the ocean even before the east ocean sometimes uh some of them are either taken up by a bird

(01:16:44):
or a dog and when they reach the ocean like they eat in bi-pig of fish so they say that one
out of thousand turtles actually reach like an adult age so it might be the same with whale sharks
and even with humans like if you see when like usually humans are one baby this is because
we take care of one baby really well or when we see whales like humpback whales and all they have

(01:17:07):
just one baby and they take care of the baby or tigers even when they have two or three babies they
take care of the babies for a few years so those species that actually have the mumps taking care of
those will have like lesser you know babies but when you have like 300 babies it's usually that
their survival rate itself is really low so which is why you have so many babies.

(01:17:31):
Sorry I'll just interrupt because I was looking this up and found this um so whale sharks are
uh they're called Ovo-VV-Paris. Yeah, Paris. Yeah and they do lay eggs but the young hatch inside the
mother's body and then the babies are born live so I was I was confused for a second because if they're

(01:17:55):
fish why are they giving birth to live young but anyway that's that that was my um rabbit hole.
Oh yes yes but I think uh because it's the same exact concept and once they give birth
I don't think that the babies actually stay with the mumps they actually go their own way and they
survive so there are some times that people have found these tiny tiny whale sharks in the ocean

(01:18:17):
so they really have to struggle to grow because they have like a load of predators but once they've grown
they're not easily predated upon. Yes. Now obviously coming back to the topic now in this uh a group
of researchers have found that 62% of the whale sharks have scars and injuries from preventable human
causes and they argue that simple interventions could lessen this burden on the local population

(01:18:44):
of these gentle giants and yes for people who did not know whale sharks are called gentle giants
because they're huge but they are only filter feeders so they're like really gentle. Like there's no
way they can harm like except for like like large impact which is unlikely to happen they can't harm
in any shape. They just cure us and they look really cute. So what these researchers found whether

(01:19:09):
these scars and injuries were mainly from anthropogenic causes obviously our causes. So one
it was the collision with baggons which are traditional fishing platforms with the lift nets.
So these platforms are also places from where I think the fishermen feared them so they might be
coming really close and they might be colliding with the baggons or they might be getting trapped

(01:19:31):
in the lift nets and the second cause obviously are the whale shark watching tour boats. So the
boats itself are causing the harm to the whale sharks. So they have to be like solutions so that they
do not you know come really close to these baggons or the tour boats have like a speed limit or have
like a check limit or there is some way to know like which areas you should not go around because

(01:19:54):
now that you know that the whale sharks stay there you and you know that they're not migrating
because you made it a habit to feed them. There should be a very easy way to turn these around
because that is literally what is feeding you so you have to save them. Yeah 100%. Yes and I think
I just shared a quick image of a baggon on the screen baggon vegan I don't know. But yeah I think

(01:20:23):
it's really astounding when the article says and you stressed on that point as well that preventable
you know human caused scars and injuries. So that's I think also key to consider here as well

(01:20:43):
because if it's preventable why is this happening unless like it can only happen if we are so careless
about these animals that as you said give the local tourist tourism business their livelihood
they're so careless that you know it's just happening out of carelessness.

(01:21:09):
Other one is you know it just gives me it makes me sad that they are intentional.
These are the two reasons in my mind that these these could happen like intentional like preventable
scars could happen and both of them are not not not a good enough reason for these to happen.

(01:21:32):
And just like you know how tigers they say that no two tigers have the same stripes so you can
tell each tiger from its unique stripes. So it's the same with whale sharks even though they have
these spots and they might look similar but they're every whale shark has its own unique pattern of
bites, spots and stripes and this is what enables the scientists to use these photos and know which

(01:21:56):
individual and how much damage they have. So just like in sharks also there are certain patterns
that you can see similarly in whale sharks the spots are different so imagine I mean you have so
many whale sharks and each whale shark is unique I mean nature is amazing that way that even though
you would have like you know let's say 10,000 whale sharks or 3,000 tigers all of them will have

(01:22:20):
unique patterns. I mean can you even like put that into perspective that is amazing like we cannot
do that as humans with whatever like maybe maybe yeah our fingerprint is definitely unique but I
mean I'm saying making something like let's see the white spots and stripes like imagine if you
had to keep printing it in a different way every day that would be so tough but nature just does

(01:22:46):
effortlessly. Yes yeah it is amazing it is amazing how how you said two tigers didn't have the same
stripes the whale sharks don't have the same polka dots. Yeah and obviously with places like
Centre Vasi Bay and other places where they you know come so there are a lot of places in Indonesia

(01:23:09):
that feed whale sharks but not just Indonesia there are places in Philippines as well so those
are unethical practices because you're feeding the whale sharks and you're not just letting them
thrive in the wild and it's not like you cannot see them in the wild you can but you but they've
now made it a habit and what is happening with them is that because they're feeding them obviously

(01:23:29):
these whale sharks, teenager the you know the buggerants and they get into these collisions because
they're being fed directly from the buggerants so it's actually really sad that these whale sharks
are become so dependent that they're like you're you know like your little puppy or you know
something like a pet because you have to now feed them because they're so dependent on you.

(01:23:52):
Yes and and we can't we can't blame the health whale sharks because you know they're getting food
constant supply of food that's that's literally the one thing that all animals including humans
are most you know spend the most energy to to get and if that's you know they're just getting it

(01:24:14):
of course they would want to stay there but we like for us as intelligent species we have to make
that connection that it is really important that these sharks follow their natural instinct and
their natural migration patterns and all the things that they have to go through

(01:24:35):
into to lead a whale shark life you know. Yeah so you know they also said that most individuals
that were sighted with juveniles between four and five meters long while 90% of males so the
females are not around there but the males are around the area so that is also really interesting
because we do not know what the females are doing or maybe the females are just smart and they

(01:24:59):
just want to keep migrating and have food by every species. Every species.
Maybe. So yes but what Oop said it's a very interesting thing and I have this story once we were in
Pushka Rajasthan in India and we're going to see in the see this Baba and his name was called
Alu Baba. Alu means potato and so his name was potato Baba so he was like a Baba is like this

(01:25:29):
Baba of the potatoes. Yeah no no no no no so he was called Alu Baba because he only consumes
potato. Oh okay. Yeah so I asked him and I went and asked him and I said that why do you consume
only potato? So he said I do that so I don't have to think all day about what I am going to eat
and I can spend more time meditating and that struck me so strongly because I know that I keep thinking

(01:25:56):
about what I will have in my next meal and I sometimes prep you know I mean we all I think prep
for the next few days also sometimes so we think about food so much and I mean that is what goes on
I mean that's literally why we do everything in our like 90% of the things that we do in our
life day to day life it's because we have to put food on our table and you know chasing after

(01:26:21):
all these different things yeah and I think yeah that strategy of Alu Baba and I'm a little curious
as to why he chose the Alu instead of anything else but it's cheap and it's easier to source
at least in India. Yes yeah yeah no I think it's very very rings very true and a lot of people

(01:26:47):
apply a lot of different strategies like you know some people will wear the shame same clothes
you know like me I don't want to think about my clothes at all so I just you know think minimally
I don't think if I'm matching or if I'm wearing the latest color of the season or anything like that

(01:27:09):
or even if I'm looking at all presentable in those clothes so I don't want to think about that
I spend minimal time on that or buying clothes as well but you know different people have different
strategies but I think Alu Baba's strategy is the best because food is literally the thing we
think about the most so yeah yeah I mean it is it is something I think in Hindi what we say is

(01:27:31):
puppy paid Kasa Valas so you know like like everything boils down to your stomach and feeding your
stomach. Yeah even in the in the roti Kapramakan the roti comes first that's like food comes first
always and then clothes and then a house to live in like a room over your head. I mean now
now because we're not hunter-gatherers we do not have to struggle for food but there was a time

(01:27:54):
that when we were hunter-gatherers what they say is that when you used to come across some tree like
a fig tree what you would do is you would just eat a lot and a lot and a lot of figs so that because
you do not know when you would come across the next fig tree and this is what they say is that now
also why do we have a sweet tooth and why can we not stop ourselves from eating a lot of

(01:28:16):
sweets is because of that evolutionary pattern that when we used to say something that was
cobb loaded and that was sweet we used to really stuff our mouths because we did not know when
we would get it so we know that I mean we've come from there where we have struggled for food and
food I mean we still we don't struggle struggle but we know how important food is and I'm not

(01:28:39):
saying we as an everyone a lot of people across the world are literally struggling for foods of
food is very very important but with these male sharks and with other species this is what happens
like you can kind of tame them into coming back to the same place by beating them now with sharks I
think it's one thing sharks keep coming and going so there are areas where they have noticed that

(01:29:03):
where they feed the sharks the sharks actually disappear and they come back so sharks are not
directly impacted by you feeding them because I think when sharks are fed they fed so little that
that is not enough to sustain their hunger so they keep going and coming back yeah but with
whale sharks and even like stingrays and some other fish species they're so dependent so right now

(01:29:24):
it talks about the whale shark but I'm sure with the whale shark there would be like hundreds of
other fish around them who are also getting the treats out of you know the whale sharks being fed
so this practice is something that we shouldn't make it a habit because once you make it a habit
then they are dependent on you and then you'll have to really try hard to be in them off from such a

(01:29:47):
habit yes and I think this this practice is a really really really easy one to if not get completely
rid of but at least to be very smart about it and maybe put some research hours into it as well
what is the best strategy to sort of feed them but also let them maintain their natural

(01:30:10):
sort of cycles and natural migration patterns and things like that but it's a really easy change
to make and I think yeah it's it's kind of a no-brainer from Farhan from where I'm sitting and I
fully understand that there are a lot more factors that will that that goes into this making this

(01:30:32):
decision but it's it's not a very difficult decision to make in my view and and oops I think
the article answered my question yeah yeah yeah it's other fish in the sea where the females
are older sexually mature individuals hang out and they say previous studies from around the world

(01:30:55):
have shown that a dark whale shark especially females prefer the depotion where they feed a
whale like crayon schooling fish while the younger males stay closer to the shore in shallow
plankton rich waters that help them grow quickly so that is why the juvenile males are found near the
bargains and you know make complete sense yeah and the females are in the deep oceans so they're not

(01:31:17):
really affected and they're my weight repotters but obviously 90% of the males are hanging out there
and once it's actually mature if they're not going to find the females then eventually
whale shark populations will decline so obviously and then if you are obviously hot and you
wouldn't be able to migrate so much even after maturing you might want to stay in the same place

(01:31:38):
because you know you know I didn't have a good shape to actually travel that far and look for food
that is that is that is so right yes yeah that makes a lot of sense actually
but and I think this needs to be like interrupting you know even like like remember how we when

(01:32:03):
we are in forests we or in natural spaces you know they make it make sure to tell us or make sure to
inform us that even if an animal two animals are fighting to dig as a fighting or whatever
we should not intervene and we should just take nature take its course I think the same thing applies

(01:32:28):
here as well you know just let nature take its course we can't intervene to an extent where
all the natural and and we don't know what effects it is having or will have yeah it's a really big
picture for a human mind to comprehend so yeah yes and if you're planning to swim with the whale

(01:32:53):
shark please only choose ethical places because I know I went to Philippines I really wanted to go
but I did not when I found out that they fed the whale sharks and they're doing this in a place
called Lati in Pohol and even Oslo near Sebu all of these places are illegal there are a lot of

(01:33:15):
places across the world where you can see them in the wild so stick to that and you know I mean
there are reason there's a reason they're called wild they belong in the wild they're not supposed to be
team yeah yeah that is that's a good one yeah I think we can move on to the next topic

(01:33:39):
a surprisingly this episode is very ocean based but we didn't plan for it but it just
happened no we we absolutely didn't plan for it but it's a good thing it's a good thing we have
the whale shark day and we have the jaws 50th anniversary and I think all those things make it for
great ocean episode so we'll call this an ocean episode although we didn't plan for it but anyway

(01:34:06):
off Mexico's ghost divers nab biggest ghost yet and what do you mean what do you mean by ghost
so grueling three grueling and delicate three day operation culminating on august 20th
so a conservation international team successfully remove a massive 90 meter long nearly too

(01:34:27):
done abandoned fishing net from Mexico's esperito Santo Archipelago national park
led by diet specialist Edgado Oka the mission involved 16 divers from multiple organizations
including Mexican Navy and Kobe I don't know what the full form is this ghost net had become a deadly

(01:34:51):
trap heavily weighed down by sand and various marine life like sea stars which needed careful relocation
this is a really concerning thing in the seas do you want to do you want to tell everyone what
ghost nets are made now yeah so so there are obviously these nets that you have for trawling

(01:35:17):
but then sometimes what happens is that these nets get stuck or these nets you know the the
trawlers they leave behind the nets and when these nets just stay in the ocean they call ghost nets
so these are net I think I think any any problem with the trawling net they just cut the line and
let it fall to the ocean because it's much more cheaper and economically efficient for these trawlers

(01:35:41):
to just leave it and they leave it back they they are only thinking of the profits so they just leave
it back you know instead of trying to retrieve it or trying to fix the problem they just cut the line
and just throw it away I mean even if they fix it it's a problem because they're carrying a huge load

(01:36:03):
of fish and maybe corals and bike-edge and everything but even when they leave it they cause a
similar kind of problem so these ghost nets are like huge like you know what Upsa said it's like
kilometers long because this is how trawling works they have these huge nets and then
have these huge trawlers which are like huge ports that are dragging these nets across the sand

(01:36:25):
across the sea bed across the sea bed so they're literally like dragging everything across
so when they may have come across this problem they may have cut this net off and it might not have
been found for a long time but it's this huge net that was just lying in the sea so it's called a
ghost net because it's not really a net that's being used anymore so this net might have stayed

(01:36:46):
there and now divers are literally put in hours of efforts into just cutting and letting this
you know ocean life breathe because what happens is when a net is also staying there a lot of times
fish would pass through and unknowingly they might get stuck and they might die in it so it is a
problem for a ghost net to just lie in the ocean yes and I think other animals as well not not only fish

(01:37:13):
but mammals reptiles you know turtles like are a big big example where there has been multiple
turtle deaths because they have gotten stuck you know their mouth has gotten stuck in a piece of
net or one of these ghost nets and then of course since their mouth is tied up they can't eat so they

(01:37:40):
die off and a lot of divers if if any of you follow any sort of ocean based content creators on
Instagram or TikTok or anywhere you'll see a lot of these even recreational divers will go and
they'll always have a knife with them to sort of cut through if they come across a turtle or any other

(01:38:03):
mammal or fish stuck in these these nets they will try to cut it up yeah and this is the problem
like you know the trollers obviously don't care they only care about their profits so when
they leave the net behind they they actually cause a lot lot more harm than because harm either way
but I think when they leave the net they're causing an extended period of harm because the fish and

(01:38:28):
the turtles and sharks and like completely out of sight completely out of sight like when they're
trolling you know everything is visible they're bringing in the cash it can be documented but
a ghost net lying somewhere in the ocean will first have to find it nobody knows where these
things are first firstly but secondly it's whatever's happening it's completely out of out of

(01:38:51):
vicinity for any human it's just you know become part of the ecosystem yeah but I think like a big
big round of applause for all these divers who have you know spent all this time gone down and
painstakingly removed the net from there because it was I mean if it was something that I could take

(01:39:16):
part and I would take part in because I think it's it's something that is so so important like you
want to get the you know you want to help the ocean and this is one way and see they what they've
done is they put these huge buoyancy devices onto it so it can be picked up and it can go up so these
buoyancy devices are the only way it can actually be picked up because it's like two tons like

(01:39:39):
2000 kilograms yeah I don't think anything other than on top of like way down by the water I don't
think anything other than these buoyancy devices floaties would have would have taken like would have
been able to take this out of the ocean but yeah big big big shout out to these divers to to all the

(01:40:04):
organizations that arranged this in the first place yeah and I think one of the biggest organizations
that looked out for trawlers for ghost nets and for the ocean is the shepherd so if you're not
heard of them they have these active boats in different parts of the world that literally go out
and try to you know end all the illegal practices and they actually take part in such expeditions and

(01:40:33):
actively actively protect the ocean what they do for the ocean is amazing like I mean I don't
think anybody does for the ocean more than sea shepherd and in this article there's this paragraph
which mentions that ghost nets touch every corner of the ocean spreading on tides and currents
the main culprit of commercial fishing as we discussed estimates suggest that ghost gear account

(01:40:58):
for 10% of the waste floating in the ocean the okua said that it's almost impossible to know true
impacts because abandoned nets and gear typically come from illegal or unregulated fishing vessels
and are therefore unreported and that is also a good point there it's almost like a hit and run

(01:41:23):
right you just drop it and just go where the better strategy is to report it to the relevant people
so that they can go and extract it but the normal human reaction to be oh we don't want to report it
we don't want to get in trouble no but why would the reported if they're illegally doing it if
they were leaving it's different so you know I mean the article that you've just read the blurb

(01:41:46):
that you've just read it talks about how there are a lot of illegal boats and this is I think the main
concern in a lot of places that even though you would have legal boats you would have illegal boats
now the whole concept of trawling in itself should be illegal because it does no good for the marine life
and there are better ways than it's so inefficient like trawling is such an inefficient process

(01:42:10):
by catch is huge like human the by catch and the waste that comes with trawling is I mean the
accountability on the trawlers it's huge like I mean you do not need this amount of fish when
you're killing this amount of by catch so you there would be better practices than trawling

(01:42:30):
for trawling itself should be illegal but there are legal trawlers and there are illegal trawlers
because obviously people know that they can make a lot of money out of trawling so this is where
it affects the marine life and just like how oops mentioned earlier like you cannot see them so
with anything in the ocean and because we're not really you know we do not belong in the ocean we

(01:42:50):
do not get affected by anything ocean based easily so when wildlife under there is dying or ocean
acidification is increasing or the water is getting warmer with El Nino we do not care about it
just as much as let's say we care about something on land yeah I think that that is very true and

(01:43:15):
you know out of sight out of mind is a thing and that gets just gets intensified
tentals when we are talking about the ocean because it's so deep and so incomprehensible for
our minds so huge so large that that be you know it's it's easier for us to just not pay any attention

(01:43:35):
to it which is is the root of all these problems and I think regulation is really important and also
I think decriminalizing at least for this particular issue like if somebody reports some reports

(01:43:56):
a ghost net then you know the government or the authorities should be sensitive could be a
potential solution just to you know just for someone to report and no questions asked no questions
what is your board what is your relation whether you registered this and that no questions asked

(01:44:18):
if you've left a ghost net if you've left some here behind report no questions asked I think
that could be a very good strategy there you know talking about this I know that there's a guy
on Instagram this person was talking about how a few years back he was in the ocean so he does these

(01:44:39):
like swimming with the sharks and other kind of tours so he was in the ocean and I think he came
across a net and he thought it was a ghost net so he caught through the net but it turned out to be
an actual trawler's net so that put him into trouble and it basically you know the company or
the boat had filed a case against him and he had this ongoing case where it was you know he was

(01:45:05):
basically here damaged their property or whatever then I think recently he got this exemption or
relief from the president itself so you know even though you try to go do something good it could
also backfire so reporting is actually the way to go instead of trying to take matters into your

(01:45:25):
hands till you are absolutely sure that it is a ghost net or you're absolutely sure that you know
you can take action against them so make sure that whatever you're doing even though you're doing
something good for the environment make sure that you're doing a double check so that you do not
get into trouble because you have to keep helping the environment so make sure you don't get into
trouble yeah I think within the bounds of the law is a really good idea in most situations

(01:45:52):
and within the bounds of the law if it like also means that if you don't like that law or don't
like how that law has been enforced you know go ahead and you know speak up in your democratic
in a in a in a peace calm democratic fashion but yeah Magna raises a very good point where you know

(01:46:13):
reported to the relevant authorities and as Magna was saying like if you really want to help out
then all of these organizations are always looking for volunteers and always looking for people to
help them out with so if you have those qualifications to help out if you have those licenses to
dive and help out go do it that way rather than taking matters into your whole nads before

(01:46:34):
reporting and you know double checking that these these you know it is the your intention matches with
the local law and an intention matches with the the outcome you're trying to achieve as well
um but yeah as as we as we said like go snets are a huge problem and I think some sort of

(01:46:58):
um you know some sort of situation where either either reporting is decriminalized like reporting
is no questions asked anyone can report you know nothing nothing else asks that that could be a
really good solution um otherwise this this problem will sort of um sort of keep on growing

(01:47:22):
keep on keep on piling up but also I think we need to find a better solution to trolling as well
like even though there's a global demand for fish there should be a better way of fishing than
trolling like there are better ways of fishing they might not have the same scale but
there should be a better way and there should be a solution to try to find a better way than trolling

(01:47:42):
yes i'll yeah there's some i i feel like some energy and effort like real effort should be
invested into finding like an alternative better sustainable solution to to this this absolute

(01:48:04):
terrible thing of like trolling um yeah number of documentaries have highlighted a number of
you know content readers across all different channels highlighted yeah it is it is it is a really
bad bad bad bad practice it is it is it's it's purely evil but it it is only something that we can

(01:48:29):
hope can change because what happens is that when the big guns are out there and they're the ones
making money and also paying the government the change will not happen soon because the bigger
conglomerates are the ones that pay the most money wherever the money is coming from change will
happen the last yeah i mean politicians will need money to run uh for office and things like that so

(01:48:56):
course these conglomerates these lobbies lobbying lobbying yeah lobbying as a thing really really um you
know surprises me and also i hate that that this exists as a thing but all of these lobbies have
immensely more power than any one individual person trying to speak up or even a group of people

(01:49:18):
trying to speak up but nevertheless um that doesn't mean we should stop speaking up and i think
that was uh illustrated by the report uh mongabe report that we just covered a few earlier in this
episode but um yeah i think i think within the bounds of the law always a good idea um and yeah

(01:49:42):
i mean we the only thing we can do is be hopeful by talking about hope uh do we want to talk about
the plastic eating atopilus we can we can um we can't talk about it and so do you do you want to talk

(01:50:03):
about it do you want to start no you can go ahead that's okay okay um so this is this is a report
from science daily again this is i think a good uh good topic to cover because we have been talking
about a plastic and um gold nets just before this but um this is a report from science daily where

(01:50:28):
it says new research reveals plastic or waxworms so their greater wax moth carapillars
can metabolically degrade polyethylene again a specific kind of plastic polyethylene plastic into
body fat in days not decades this offers a potentially powerful solution to persistent plastic

(01:50:52):
pollution doctor casomes team investigates biological mechanisms and crucial health impact of
all plastic diet on survival survivability um around 2000 waxworms can break down a polyethylene
bag in 24 hours that's really interesting uh however understanding fitness costs is essential

(01:51:15):
before a large scale deployment um this ongoing research aims to determine the viability for plastic
remediation considering their long term well welfare i think this is a really good idea of this
works out really well um as as the the piece goes on to say you know survivability uh i think in

(01:51:38):
insects it's yeah insects it's it's the bar is a little a little low already for um i think all of us
and for right reasons as well they reproduce quickly the die of which the reproduction cycle is
very fast for insects so i think if we can farm silk we can also farm these um wax moth carapillars

(01:52:02):
or whatever they are i i believe again speaking out of time i i don't don't know for sure um but um
yeah i think um if we can figure that out you know large scale production of these ones then and
and if they work as well as they are saying it works then it is it is a really sort of win-win

(01:52:25):
situation for the plastic situation because a lot of the plastic is polyethylene plastic
that is going around yeah so the thing is obviously we need to take into account that again you don't have
a warm problem in the future where you you you know you carefully take care of these worms and then

(01:52:45):
you multiply them like crazy to take care of the plastic and then once if you have if you don't
have enough plastic to feed them then what do the worms worm infrextation yeah then you would have a
worm problem instead of a plastic problem so obviously now with humans what we do is we only talk
about the current time and current solution so that is how plastic came about so when we were younger

(01:53:07):
we would actually have these milkman comets our home and give milk in our you know utensils and
then they would go but now you have milk and plastics you have milk and tetrapax so so we have
kind of made it easier for ourselves the convenience came via plastic so i mean you carry a plastic
bottle around your plastic packaging for chips and everything so you you want that plastic but at

(01:53:31):
the same time when plastic came about we did not think like we did not think like you know we only
said oh my god what an amazing invention but we did not think it so no i mean i mean don't don't
get me wrong like plastic is really and really really amazing is a invention and some of the things
that we do today could not have been achieved without plastic like you know having having something

(01:53:56):
to store stuff in which is orderless you know doesn't doesn't you know preserves your food etc etc etc
and of course the health no health care sector some of the things that we do in the health care
sector even the implants that we do that we sometimes do in human bodies plastic is really

(01:54:22):
interesting and really amazing feet of science that we have invented plastic but but having said
that it's also huge huge huge huge problem as we saw like ghost nets and countless other things
that we just discard and it's it just stays it can stay there for thousands and thousands of years

(01:54:43):
without unbothered you know and obviously you know one of the biggest changes that has happened
with straws is because people saw that video of a turtle where they removed a plastic straw a whole
straw from its nose it was not able to breathe it was struggling and that is what caused people to
switch from plastic straws to paper straws or bamboo straws or steel straws or whatever they are

(01:55:07):
but the thing is even though if it's a good invention they doesn't mean it needs to be scaled to a
level that you can't scale back so that is what has happened with plastic it caused so much convenience
to humans that they started incorporating it more and more and this is what I feel like even with
these worms like let's say that the worms are amazing and they're doing an amazing job at

(01:55:28):
eating plastic they don't have any side effects from the plastic but then I mean when you have to
many worms then what are you going to do with those worms eventually if you're not going to plan
for that then you cannot scale this yes I think I think the idea I feel like the idea would be
to collect all these trash that to have some kind of tank or some kind of a reservoir for these

(01:55:55):
warm worms and collect all the plastic pollution and just throw throw it into these tanks that would
be my idea of how to achieve this without causing like a worm infestation worm problem but
yeah we'll see how this thing goes but as the initial study as an initial sort of

(01:56:21):
research this is really impressive and I don't know we might try to bring this researcher on our show
we'll try to bring it maybe on our show sometime but as a first step I feel like this is like
really important but of course the question still remains whether this is a scalable solution how

(01:56:48):
what would be the best approach to scale it scale it up I'm actually it says in the in the article
there are two things that it says one that these plastics are stored as body fat so it is similar to
as eating steak if you consume too much saturated and unsaturated fat it becomes stored in adipose
tissues as lipid reserves rather than being used as energy so basically it's becoming a fat deposit

(01:57:12):
and because it is it becoming a fat deposit the researchers also shown that it ultimately ends in
a quick death for these wax worms they do not survive more than a few days on a plastic only diet
okay okay see that's what I said in the beginning like we already have a very low bar for insects
and like if they're getting rid of plastic I'm not thinking about the health and that like these

(01:57:38):
as at least not for these worms and that's where I draw the line like I'm not at all can if they're
getting rid of the plastic pollution that exists in the world effectively and quickly then yeah
but think about it as this like I mean imagine okay let's say let's say that you scale it up to
a human and think about this that you tell humans you eat these plastics because we need to get rid

(01:58:03):
of plastics so you have like clinical trials and you have humans maybe like you know like hardcore
criminals and you just feed them plastics and they die you would would you be okay with that I
if they're like really criminal like they're the scum of the earth yes I would be okay with it
but now that these now think about it now we're saying that they're hardcore criminals that

(01:58:26):
has come of the earth now these these insects did not deserve does they didn't do anything to deserve it
yes that's what that's what I'm saying if they're cleaning up the environment for
all the different other species and we are farming these like we're not doing it in an
sustainable way we are not taking like wild wild wax worms and just randomly depleting the wild

(01:58:49):
population and disrupting ecosystems we are farming these things like we do for silk like we do
a lot of other things if we are doing that I will not bat my eye either way even the way silkworms
are actually treated as very inhumane so this would also count under inhumane so I mean at some point

(01:59:12):
of time okay maybe you know it affected by insects but the insects are affected right like I mean
why would you want to kill thousands of insects just because you caused a problem that you are not
able to solve like because there's literally no other solution like plastic is one of the things
that there's literally like this is one of the first things that has been found I think there

(01:59:33):
there's one more um worm or bacteria of some kind that eats plastic but that really takes a long time
that's why the the article mentions true but if I mean this this article literally says that they
lose considerable body mass in a few days and they die so that means that the plastic is not being
digested as well even by the worms so why are you giving them a painful death just because you

(01:59:58):
created plastic and you want to get rid of the plastic no no I want to get rid of the plastic
for like again yes that this plastic problem exists but we I also want to get rid of the plastic
because it is affecting so many other like it's not affecting humans plastic is not affecting humans

(02:00:19):
that's the that's the thing plastic it even if it's affecting it's in a it's in a in a way that we
can't see like microplastics we can't see we can't feel it yeah so it's so it's safe to say like
it's not affecting humans in a way for humans to be concerned no so the thing is the thing is we
are not concerned about it right now because the the effect of microplastic in our body

(02:00:43):
we still do not know the long term effects of it we do not know if it is not showing it's not showing
yes but that doesn't mean that we start becoming in human with insects even if people don't
feel a lot for worms and insects we shouldn't start becoming in human to solve our problems
there there should be better problems but this could be a short term maybe goal but you you cannot

(02:01:06):
just put thousands of wax on the land that's that that's the thing like if this is scalable
if this is sustainable like if these waxworms can be farmed etc then this is the only real solution
that exists as of now and I am sure like there's a lot of funding around the world no I'm not sure

(02:01:32):
I'm certain there's a lot of funding around the world for eliminating and for solving the
plastic problems so I would I would caveat and say this that this if this is our best solution
for the time being I'm completely okay with executing it at scale if it can be scaled and then

(02:01:52):
once a better solution comes around let's move to that I and I'm sure a better solution will come
around no humans get very comfortable so like like how oops does not oops does not get about the
worms dying they would not get up at the worms dying and they would just keep you know multiplying
the worms on the side and then they would keep no but if there's funding available if there's

(02:02:13):
funding available researchers will continue researching if there's funding available for solving a
problem okay if there's no funding available and people just think which might be the case as well
people just think this is this is like a long-term solution and the funding completely stops for
plastic you know elimination research that could well happen but you know I think it reminds me it

(02:02:40):
reminds me of that discussion we had when we were learning by life filmmaking that where do you
cut the line so they say that will you give up frozen or a dead fly to like a spider will you give
a dead spider to like a rat or a mouse or a frog but will you give a dead rat or a mouse to a dog

(02:03:03):
for your filming purposes and I think everyone had a different perspective on it but for me even the
fly I was not throwing the lion there because I said let the natural things happen naturally now
obviously for a filming project and for a one-off it's very different but if you're going to actually
inhumanly treat these worms where they're going to die because they you know need a

(02:03:26):
living plastic it's not a good death and it's not a good way to live whatever few days they live
it's not what they signed up for and it's not what nature signed them up for so why do we have to
be the one signing up signing them up for such a torturous death yes I I I completely agree with you
in theory but in practice yeah I think this problem is what those this this is such a huge problem

(02:03:56):
affecting so many different species visibly except humans that this and the natural world in general
plastic and and this is like one kind of plastic like think about all the different other
kinds of plastic but this is this if if if we can solve for this it's a really big win in my books

(02:04:22):
and what those whatever thousand or million worm deaths in in in my book I and I can draw I can
very comfortably and within my conscience draw the line there and say yes this is very good

(02:04:43):
this is a very good solution very good I would still not I would say it's a solution but I would not say
it's a good solution for me no it's not a good solution no no I'm not saying it's a good solution
you said it just now like it's a solution that is worth doing that is worth doing a scale I still
don't know I mean I don't know like compared to the alternative compared to the alternative think of

(02:05:08):
all the turtles and all the other species that I mean even maybe the worms maybe the worms in the wild
there should be something better than killing thousands of worms just for our plastic problem
I still think okay there might be there might be but until that that that thing shows up
um I I will be very like very happy to scale this up if it is at all and I will not be

(02:05:38):
that's yeah that's good yeah and and I think this is one of the things where I think we definitely
agree to disagree I mean my lines are far down the you don't what would you say
food cycle or whatever yeah yeah and oopses are a little higher up and it obviously depends

(02:05:59):
away you want to put your scale let's see what happens with this but I think but really interesting
yeah the question for our viewers here would be what do you feel like is this a scalable solution
and also what did you think about our episode today and was it interesting for you to know about
whale sharks about joys about shark teeth and everything else that we covered especially about

(02:06:25):
the forestation what are you going to do about it um and yeah that's about it for us
yeah um and of course you know don't forget to subscribe if you're watching this on youtube
give us a follow on all the different platforms if you're listening to the recorded version
you know feel free to sort of give us a rating good bad

(02:06:46):
um whatever it is just show show show it give us the feedback we can definitely improve from it
and it obviously helps with the algorithm promoting and making our stuff visible to more people as well
we feel really passionate about these issues and these areas and we want more people to be talking

(02:07:10):
about this but um as being said that's it for today and we'll see you next Sunday same time
same channel have a good one guys bye bye

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