February 26, 2025 • 60 mins
Giant river otters are social, intelligent, and deeply connected to the health of their ecosystems—but what happens when their food supply starts to dwindle? In this episode of The Wild Life, we’re joined by Katherine Foree, a researcher studying how these apex predators use their habitat in the Madre de Dios region of Peru. With a Fulbright grant supporting both her research and cultural exchange, Katherine is three months into her work at Cocha Cashu Biological Station and preparing for a second study on the impact of fish depletion on otter food-sharing behaviors. We also dive into her past experiences with orangutans, lemurs, and conservation challenges around the world. Join us as we explore the fascinating lives of giant river otters and what they can teach us about the delicate balance of the Amazon’s waterways, talk books, the often overlooked humanity of scientists, animal psychology, and so much more!
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Follow Kat on Instagram @a.kat.named.rin
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:24):
Welcome to the Wildlife.
I'm your guide, Devin Boker.
And today we're venturing deepinto the Amazon to explore the world
of one of its most charismaticyet little known apex predators,
the giant river otter.
These sleek social carnivoresare essential to the health of their
ecosystems.
But their survival depends ona delicate balance, one that is increasingly
(00:46):
under threat.
My guest today, Kathryn Forey,was at the time of our interview
this past July, three monthsinto a nine month Fulbright grant
studying how these otters usetheir space in the Madre de Dios
region of Peru.
She was preparing to soonbegin a new project looking at how
declining fish populationsaffect their food sharing behavior.
(01:07):
Catherine's journey has takenher from studying orangutans to lemurs
protected areas of Kenya.
And today she's here to shareher insights into what these incredible
otters reveal about theAmazon's future.
Let's dive in.
(01:31):
Hi, my name's Catherine or Cat Forey.
I use she her pronouns.
I'm currently in Manu nationalpark in the Madre de Dios region
of Peru and I'm working on myFulbright grant.
I, I have to say when I sawyour information kind of coming through,
I was like, okay, immediatelyhave to have a conversation.
(01:55):
I was like, giant riverotters, Peru.
Like these are like so manyboxes checked.
I was like, we've gotta, okay,we've gotta make this happen, we've
gotta talk.
So I'm really excited rightnow to learn more about what you're
doing and kind of what led you there.
And I guess that's actuallyprobably a good spot to start is
journey like what, what gotyou to where you are at this moment?
(02:17):
Yeah.
So I guess it started when Igot back from my semester in Kenya.
I really needed, I knew Ineeded a letter of recommendation
from this professor that Ihadn't taken a class with yet.
But I was going to be in hislittle like one month field primatology
class.
(02:37):
So I sent him an email thatwas like, hello, you don't know me
at all, but I really am goingto need a letter of recommendation
from you in a month.
What will it take?
And he's like, well, you know,let's just get to know each other
this month.
Turns out he was also fromTexas, close to my hometown.
And so I spent the next yearand a half pretty much continuously
(03:00):
taking his classes and gettingto know him.
And he's a primatologist, buthe helped me figure out that I was
really interested in socialanimal behavior.
He set me up studying somelemurs in Myakka, Florida, as well
as looking at orangutan social webs.
(03:21):
And so when it got nearer totrying to figure out what was I going
to do after graduation, hesuggested that I look into a Fulbright
grant.
And I'd never heard of it.
I just honestly wanted to dosomething outside the country, something
interesting with research.
(03:43):
And from there I got in touchwith my queen.
Her name is also Kat.
So we like to send our emailsback and forth, but just Kat.
Anyways, Kathleen Robinson,she started me on the essentially
like two year process forapplying to this grant.
(04:04):
And it started out I needed tofind where I was gonna go and kind
of what institution.
And honestly, I think thereason that I got this grant is because
instead of like deciding on aplace and my needs and trying to
just like slam them together,I said, okay, I need to go somewhere
(04:25):
with intermediate Spanish.
I'd love to go somewhere inthe rainforest.
And like, that was really myinitial desire.
So I found Cocha KashuResearch Station and I sent Cesar,
the head of science, an email.
I was like, hey, I'm not surewhat I want to do, but can I talk
(04:45):
to you about doing a Fulbrightgrant at your station?
And so I got to talking withhim and kind of asked like, what
social animal projects aregoing on?
And he gave me the option.
He's like, well, you couldstudy the primates, you could study
the macaws or the parrot, oryou could study the river otters.
(05:05):
And I figured that I'd ratherspend my time looking down rather
than looking up.
So I picked the river otters.
And then from there he put mein touch with Dr.
Ade Barrocas, who is the headof the giant river otter conservation
project done through SanDiego, who also or San Diego Zoo
(05:26):
Global, which also manages Cochacashu.
And I asked him, I was like,I'm really interested in like animal
culture, social hierarchy, behavior.
And he was like, well, they dothis pretty unique thing where the
river otters are in extendedfamily groups and there's a breeding
(05:49):
pair and then there's just abunch of relatives.
And by a bunch, I mean like upto 11.
And so the relatives will helpprovision the babies of this main
mating pair.
So they do this really uniquefood sharing system that goes all
the way through adolescence,which is pretty, pretty uncommon
(06:13):
to be feeding not your own babies.
So yeah, he helped me findthis project of looking at what the
difference in food sharingbehavior is between these areas that
have been heavily gold minedand polluted by mercury.
Therefore, like dropping theamount of fish in the water in comparison
(06:36):
with these more protectedlakes here in Manu national park
and the more outlying likeAmarikairi, Amariquerie reserves.
So they're not like quite asprotected, but they still, they're
monitored more for goldmining, so.
Sure.
Yeah, that's.
That's flowcharted my way in.
(06:59):
But.
So you, you mentioned you'reoriginally from Texas, is that right?
Austin, Texas.
Austin, Texas.
Okay.
I'm originally from Houston,so I know Texas is a big place for
sure.
But when people are like,Texas, I'm like, is there a chance
Houston area?
Austin is extraordinary.
It's a really interesting place.
(07:20):
I love the bats.
That's probably my favorite isgoing up and just watching the bats.
Really cool experience.
Yeah, so lovely.
I led a couple canoe trips outunderneath the Bat Bridge for people
who'd like never been canoeing.
And I was like, okay, get in acanoe and we're gonna go sit underneath
some bats.
It was really.
Yeah.
(07:42):
So for those listening whoaren't entirely familiar with what
exactly a Fulbright grant isand how it operates and kind of what
all that involves.
Could you explain that?
Yeah.
So a Fulbright grant, I thinkit was originally started by the
US government with a bigendowment from Mr.
(08:04):
And Mrs.
Fulbright, I believe.
And the idea is kind of tocreate intercultural understanding,
exchange and just likecompetency, I guess.
And so it's both like a softdiplomacy thing that the US does
as well as just like thispretty expansive opportunity for
(08:29):
people to go to different countries.
And it's more well known inother countries as sending people
to the United States.
So whenever I like, I've beendown in Peru, I tell people I'm doing
this Fulbright grant andthey're like, but why are you in
Peru?
I'm like, no, no, no, no, thisis the other way around.
(08:49):
Yeah, yeah.
So there's, and then there'stwo kind of major sections.
There's the English teachingand study or.
Yeah, just English teaching awards.
So assign people and they'llput them in, they'll do their nine
month term there.
And then there's researchstudy awards and I've got a research
study award.
(09:11):
And you have, you affiliatewith an institution.
Usually it's a university, butI'm with San Diego, Peru.
And then you have the optionyou can either kind of like get your
master's degree or take somemaster's classes or you can conduct
some research.
(09:32):
So every month they pay me astipend of the median income of a
person in Peru, I think, orlike minimum Cost of living.
And I send in my monthlyreports, and I adhere to the 10 pages
of guidelines, which,thankfully, isn't too hard when you're
(09:55):
out in the middle of nowhere.
And, yeah, I really.
I like it because I know whenyou're doing institutional research,
there's a lot of pressure todo this, like, publish or perish,
you know, really die hard withwhat you're doing.
And it's felt really good to,like, to me, to assuage my anxieties.
(10:24):
It's like Fulbright has chosenme as a person to do this project
that I've picked to see if Ilike it and if it's meaningful to
me.
And so instead of having thispressure to, like, publish and continue
in this academic career, like,I do want to publish, and I do think
(10:46):
I want to continue inacademia, but, you know, it doesn't
feel like the weight of all ofmy future job or tenure is resting
on this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's.
That's gotta be quite nice.
There's, like a layer offreedom, you know, with it.
Yeah.
(11:06):
And such a remarkable place.
I mean, what.
How long have you been thereso far?
Did you say.
Three months, and in country,three months, 20 days, but here at
the station, like, threemonths, five days, sure.
Okay.
And what.
(11:26):
What would you say so far havebeen some of your more memorable
experiences or even momentswhere, you know, you felt like, wow,
this is a.
This is a very different place.
This is not what I'm used to.
Well, I mean, the first.
(11:46):
The first night I was there,like, I speak Spanish, okay.
Right.
It's not.
It's not amazing.
It's not terrible.
But this meant that there wasthis professor and his student, and
she was a prospective thesisstudent looking to do her research
on Caymans.
(12:08):
And I kind of heard them talking.
And what I interpreted was,we're gonna go walk around the lake
and look for cayman nests at night.
And I was like, oh, hell yeah.
Like, I'd love to go look forsome Cayman nests.
Like, that sounds really cool.
So my first sign that thatwasn't exactly what was happening
was instead of going over tothe trailhead, we went down to the
(12:30):
boat dock.
And I was like, oh, okay.
I guess we're gonna look atthem, you know, from the boat.
So we get in the boat and westart paddling, and neither.
Neither of them can steer.
I'm, like, pretty experiencedin a canoe, but I was in the middle,
so I was trying to steer thecanoe from the middle, and they're
(12:50):
like, okay, we're doing thisEye shine trick for caimans.
Their eyes reflect red if youhold the lamp up to your eyes, kind
of like spiders.
So we spot ourselves a caiman,and they're like, okay, we'll paddle
towards them.
And I was like, okay.
So we paddle towards them, andthey're like, closer, closer, closer.
And I was like, okay.
(13:11):
And then the professor leanshalfway out of the canoe and grabs
this caiman.
And I was like, what?
So, I mean, you know, granted,it's a caiman only like, this big,
like maybe 2.2ft long, but,yeah, they're not.
Still.
I had no idea.
Yeah, I.
(13:32):
I was not expecting it to be a.
A cayman grabbing night, youknow, I really was not prepared.
No.
Was it.
Was it just the.
Just to see the caiman or was it.
No, no, they.
Yeah, they were looking.
They're looking at the lengththey're looking at.
It's like snout to top of thehead length as well as looking for
(13:55):
fingers and toes missing.
So they can do lateridentifications, because turns out
the piranhas in this lake willbite off fingers and toes.
Really?
Feel like, yeah, I've comefull circle because at first it was
like, oh, no, piranhas willeat you if you go in the water.
And then it was like, no, no,piranhas are only scavengers.
They eat dead things.
(14:15):
And I get here, and they'relike, don't stop moving in the water,
or the piranha will take achunk out of you.
Well, yeah, I.
Yeah, grabbing a caiman out ofthe water is a.
That would definitely be kindof a shock for sure.
Something else I learned inKenya was that, like, yeah, carnivores
are dangerous, but also, like,don't fuck with herbivores.
(14:37):
Like, just.
Yeah, if.
If you're gonna get murdered,it's gonna be by an herbivore because
they're like, oh, you're gonnakill my family.
I'm.
I am but one of many.
I will sacrifice myself.
Whereas the carnivores are,you know, a little bit more willing
to let you run away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, my gosh.
I.
I try because I'm inMinnesota, and I try.
(15:00):
You know, people, like, when Igo up north and stuff, people are
like, aren't you ever afraidof, like, bears or wolves?
And I'm like, you know, I'vecome across so many bears, and they
just walk away or they run away.
I've seen wolves.
They run away.
What I'm afraid of is a moose.
Like, that's the one thing Idon't want to Be cornered by is a
moose.
I corner by a wolf, corner bya bear.
I'll even take a mountain lionbefore I'll take a moose.
(15:22):
Like nine foot tall thingflinging through the air.
Yep, that's the one I havetrust issues with.
Yeah.
For real.
I, I spent a couple of mysummers canoeing around.
You might know Camp WidijiWagon, It's a YMCA canoe camp.
(15:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, they had essentially thesame training.
They're like, okay, blackbear, bang some pots and pans together.
Brown bear, we're just noteven gonna worry about that and hope
it doesn't happen.
But the moose, you stay awayfrom those mooses.
Like just steer clear.
If you see them, don't makeeye contact, paddle the other direction
(16:04):
back up slowly.
Like most of the education wasthe anti moose education.
Yeah, yeah.
Not to get, not to get too offtopic, but I remember also when I
learned that they can swimlike something like 20ft below the
surface to graze on aquaticplants and things.
And I'm like, so you'retelling me like hypothetically I
(16:25):
could be scuba diving in alake and then turn to my side and
there's a mo, like no, no, Ilove moves, they're typical.
But jaws, yeah, for sure.
So, yeah, I guess kind of on asimilar note, I mean we have otters
(16:46):
here.
They're quite small.
I do remember learning backand I think it was a wildlife populations
class, just about how muchrange and stuff that they can cover
and how they kind of use theirspace, like even in a given period,
like a given day.
I was like kind offlabbergasted because it just seemed
so much more than what I expected.
(17:08):
How, how, when it comes tolike the giant river otters, how
much space do they use and howdo they compare, you know, size wise
and things with, with likeriver otters in North America that
people might be more familiar with.
Right.
So it really depends on whatseason it is.
(17:31):
So here in the Amazon, they'vegot the wet season and the dry season
and during the dry seasonthey're like day to day, they're
restricted to their lake.
Now Cochac, the lake that I'mon right now that I'm looking out
the window at here, is abouttwo and a half kilometers long and
(17:52):
it's got some swamps and it'sgot a, like a little quebrada, little
stream that goes to some morewater and then it also has a currently
dry canyon that connects tothe river.
So daily they're kind of doinglaps around this lake.
They're going into theswampier areas, spending a lot of
(18:16):
time in some low overhangingtrees, which is really unfortunate
for me because I can't seethem there.
But they also occasionallytake these sojourns.
We're thinking they go intothe creek during the dry season because
it leaves, like, pools wherefish are a lot easier to catch, but
(18:38):
they're really hard, reallyhard to find there.
We found tracks a coupletimes, but have never actually seen
the otters outside of thelake, which we've been trying, but
it's not.
Not super easy.
But in terms of size, Ibelieve they get up to about five
(19:00):
and a half feet.
They have a really long, verypowerful tail.
In fact, when I was firstlooking for the den with the scientific
manager, Cesar, he was like,okay, we gotta be really careful
when we approach this denbecause we're pretty sure they're
not here.
But if they get you look outfor the claws and the tail.
(19:22):
Apparently, like, that'swhat'll get you, you know, it's propelling
them through the water.
Just slapped.
Yeah.
Not sure how big river ottersare, but let's see.
Anything, anything else onthat point?
I mean, they're.
(19:42):
The size of the lake does seemto kind of dictate, like, the size
of family it can support.
So right now our otterpopulation is kind of dying out.
We're down to three.
They've had, like, a litter ofpups the last four years, but none
of them have survived morethan six months to, like, get out
(20:05):
of the den.
But there was recently thisreally big flood that came through,
and that's kind of.
My secondary project right nowis looking at the spatial use of
these otters in the lake.
Taking regular water qualitydata and just trying to, like, determine,
you know, if there's.
(20:27):
If they're catching more fish,you know, if there's a chance that
this environment's going tobecome more hospitable for them or,
you know, if their numbers arejust going to continue to dwindle
and we'll lose this population here?
Sure is.
So is the, the.
The reduction in thepopulation and the.
And the low survivability, is that.
Is that related to the waterquality that you were mentioning
(20:49):
before?
I'm not.
I'm not really sure, honestly,from the introduction I've been trying
to write, I think, like, fishpopulations are pretty affected by
this water quality, and ottersare very affected by fish populations.
They eat primarily fish.
(21:10):
They eat, like, I think it'sfour to six kilos a day of Fish per
otter, which is really liketwelve twelveish pounds, eight to
twelve pounds of fish.
So, you know, I've seen themfeeding on mussels.
I've seen them eat some babycaimans before, but they are really
reliant on.
(21:31):
I can't remember what exactlythe name of these two fish families
are, but they're these fishthat really are reliant on these
kind of messes of branch inthe water and they'll kind of hide
up in there.
And there's, there's one paperthat talks about seasonal flooding
(21:55):
on isolated lakes, but it isin Singapore, but it's the closest
tropical thing I could find.
And that said that it mainlyaffects longer lived larger fish,
which are kind of like thestar prey items for the otters.
But yeah, not, not entirelysure, which is I guess why we're
(22:17):
doing this research to findout if this water quality has, you
know, if it's changedsignificantly because we have some
before data and if so, like,has the frequency of fish being caught
been changed?
Are they spending more time inareas where like the chlorophyll
is higher or the dissolvedoxygen is higher?
Yeah, yeah.
No, that totally makes sense.
(22:38):
Yeah.
What, what have you, like, sofar in these last three months and
things, you know, what, whathave you learned about, about the,
the otters?
Well, let's see.
They.
Firstly, it's been reallygratifying to have them start to
become habituated to me.
(22:59):
So I'm in this like dugoutcanoe paddling around, following
them in the lake.
And they kind of start off bydoing this periscoping behavior where
they lift their neck andshoulders up out of the water, which,
you know, you'd think, oh, aneck that's not very far, but their
neck is like a third of their body.
So they like lift themselvesout of the water and they make these
(23:21):
like, snorting guttural noiseat you, which means, you know, move,
you're in my space.
So it's been really wonderfulto go from them like periscoping,
which is what that behavior iscalled, and snorting at me to now,
so long as I'm not wearing mybright pink rain jacket.
(23:42):
They hate.
They hate the pink rain jacket.
Yeah.
The, the only female in thegroup, Polly, she'll come right up
to my canoe, you know, justlike half a meter away and like stick
her head out of the water andlook at me, look at my canoe and
then go about her business.
Kind of like it feels likeshe's greeting me.
(24:03):
I don't know if that's exactlywhat it is.
You know, if I'm putting my,my Morgan cannon animal hat on.
But sure.
But yeah, that's been great.
And then, I mean, I've learnedthat they do use a lot of shallow
water for catching their prey,which does.
There's conflicting literatureon it.
(24:26):
Some groups say that otterswon't spend time in places that are
shallower than like half a meter.
But that also might bereferring to like if the whole body
of water is shallower thanhalf a meter.
But yeah, they'll, they'll doa lot of fishing in the shallows
(24:46):
of the lake.
And then I think it ends uplike they catch a whole bunch of
small fish at the beginning ofthe day.
Just seems like whatever theycan get.
And then they move on to theselike much higher energy fishing tactics
where they go out into themiddle of the lake, which is like
maybe 3 meters, and they dothis really dramatic, like almost
(25:09):
dolphin like thing where theygo under and then they launch their
whole body out of the water inthis like beautiful arc and then
dive back in.
I think it's like gainingmomentum and taking a breath at the
same time.
So they're just like hoppingand, you know, chasing this fish
along with their two otherfamily members into the shallows.
(25:32):
They'll grab this fish that'slike half their body length and then
the begging starts.
Right, so you'll have oneotter that's just like, you know,
mouth full of fish, makingchewbacca noises essentially, which
indicates I have a fish, you don't.
And then you have the othertwo just making these weird like
(25:55):
cross between a whale, like a,I mean literally a whale.
Large, largest land, largestwater animal, largest animal on earth
noises and some type ofsqueaky bird just like, just like
begging for this fish.
They'll like, you know, do thekind of playful dog asking to play
(26:20):
stance, you know, with theirback legs up and their front legs
down the look.
Yeah.
And then they'll like scuttlearound to the back and they'll make
even more insistent noises.
And then I don't know exactlywhat will motivate them to finally
take the steel, but sometimesthey'll like dip back underwater
(26:43):
and then they'll launchthemselves into the air, grab the
fish away from the one thatcaught it and then just like run
off and you, you can hear themscreaming like all the way across
the lake.
Just these angry, angry, weirdnoises that they sound like they
belong underwater, honestly.
(27:07):
And so, I mean, we alreadytalked kind of about, you know, the,
the fish populations and howthey might be affecting them and
stuff.
And I forgot to even bring up,I mean, you did say so at the end
of this month.
That's kind of your, your nextproject, right, is looking at how,
how the depleted fish, exactlyhow that might be interacting with
(27:28):
or impacting the, the otters.
I finish out this month andthen I am going to come back and
do kind of one last month ofdata collection here.
But this group, the GiantRiver Otter Conservation Project,
does a yearly census.
And so they're essentiallytaking like little snippets of behavior
(27:50):
and spatial usage, kind oflike what I'm doing here, but on
a more.
I don't know exactly thescientific words for this, but they're
taking a lot of differentgroups, whereas I'm taking like the
longer time sample.
And they're also, they'retaking water quality.
(28:10):
They're doing kind of a fishcensus, a Cayman census.
I think they even are lookingat kind of fishing birds in the lakes
that we go to because that'salso a good indicator of how much
energy is passing throughthese trophic systems.
Because I believe caimans takeup like, I think it was 300 kilojoules
(28:36):
maybe of energy.
And then your average bird,which is the only calculation that
exists really for bird energyusage that's closest, would take
up, I think about 1600kilojoules per day.
And then the giant otters takelike 2,300 per otter per day.
(29:00):
So like, they really have thismassive, massive intake of energy.
And it's reflected in like,the local fishermen don't really
like giant otters becausethey're like, oh, they fish the whole
lake.
But yeah, I'm really excitedto go see a whole bunch of different
(29:21):
families of otters.
And yeah, like, I mean, maybeI'm not supposed to wonder this as
strictly an animal scientist,but I've also got my degree in psychology.
So the question is like, is itsimilar to humans in that a lack
(29:42):
of food typically creates more sharing?
Or, you know, is it the reverse?
Is it that they're going to besharing less because there's less
to eat?
And like, what implicationsdoes that have for us as our world
becomes more polluted andthese resources become, you know.
Yeah, reduced.
But yes, will be interestingto see particularly because, yeah,
(30:06):
it's these.
No other groups of otters dothis extended family care thing.
It's pretty unique to these,to these giant ones here.
So I'm not entirely sure like,what, what effect it would have on
other populations of otters.
I do know the, the only otherotter food sharing study that's been
(30:31):
done is in Asian small clawedotters and it found that, let's see,
it was like the adults shareda lot with the juveniles, but that
wasn't affected by abundanceof food, which is not.
I mean I would think that foodabundance would have something to
do with it.
But granted, I think this isalso like these otters are regularly
(30:56):
getting provisioned.
So it's not like a long termlack of food that is being reflected,
it's just like in that dailyfood, food drop that they have left
to shoot them.
Yeah, I mean that is reallyinteresting though.
I mean like, see now you gotme going thinking about the different,
(31:18):
broader implications and things.
But I do always love lookingat different examples of social behavior
in, in animals and like someof those elements.
Like what is, what is the moresignificant drive?
Is there, is there a reallystrong drive of like self preservation
even in these social groups?
(31:38):
Or is the, is the drive tomaintain and protect the whole stronger?
And how do you see thatmanifest in different ways?
It's, it's really interesting.
There's two major theories onwhy sharing happens.
And one of them is essentiallylike conflict avoidance.
(31:58):
When someone is begging atyou, aggressively trying to avoid
giving it to them is a prettydecent energy expenditure.
And then there's also thetheory, I can't remember I was reading
about it this morning, butit's like inclusive fitness, I think
it is.
So it's like if they're evenapproximately in your gene pool,
(32:22):
it's better to, to give themthis food and also to assume that
you will then get some food inreturn or some other benefits.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've seen, Ithink that's like one of the prevailing
ones that I see a lot withbirds in particular that people talk
about where you, you know,the, the, the other males will like
(32:42):
help the male or, or you know,people, the males that were not the
direct mate of the female willstill take care of the, the chicks,
you know, or the eggs andthings like that, that inclusive
fitness piece.
Yeah, either way it's like asuper fascinating topic and I'd have
to assume that there's across,even, even within, you know, like
(33:05):
organisms, across differentspecies and stuff.
There's probably all kinds ofdifferent drivers at play.
But, and I'm the, thepsychology piece I was curious about
because you, yeah.
You have animal studies and psychology.
Does that, do you, do you feellike in your work you, you feel a
(33:26):
lot of interplay between thoseor that maybe the psychology piece
influences Your interest inthe animal behavior aspect or anything
like that?
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's kind of, honestly,it's a little bit of a sticky subject
because, so I got my degreepsychology and animal studies, and
(33:49):
animal studies in particularis more of an anthrozoology degree
looking at the intersectionbetween human and non human animals
rather than strictly zoology.
So I spent a lot of time in myclasses talking about, you know,
when is it appropriate to anthropomorphize?
When is it appropriate to, youknow, access your catalog of human
(34:12):
traits and project them onto animals?
And the answer is, you know,it's different in every case.
I think that it's, it seemsfoolish to never look at human behavior
in reference to animals, like,particularly with social creatures.
(34:34):
But at the same time, if youovergeneralize, like there's the
classic example of thechimpanzee baring their teeth is
like the sign of aggression.
Whereas we look at it andwe're like, oh, they're smiling.
So I don't know, it definitelycan be conflicting for me, but also
(34:56):
really complementary.
I took a animal behavior classat the same time as a social science
class.
And that was so, so funbecause I'd make, I mean, I made
some of the other students inmy social science class uncomfortable
because I'd start talkingabout social situations.
(35:16):
Like you'd be describinganimal behavior like on the college
campus, like, ah, yes, all ofthe males cluster around in this
one place and they take offtheir shirts to display for the females
that they know they're goingto be there, you know, and everyone
in the class is like, yeah.
(35:38):
But I think, honestly, whilepsychology does come into my work
in terms of just like the wayI look at animal behavior, it comes
in a little bit more with thebiggest important thing I learned
while I was in Kenya, and thatis if you want to conserve animals,
(36:00):
you have to help the people first.
And it's, it was honestlyreally embarrassing that it took
me until my junior year ofcollege to really like put together
this idea of, you know, ifpeople are starving, they're going
to do whatever they can tofeed their babies.
(36:20):
It's not necessarily, youknow, malicious people that are poaching
these white rhinos.
It's people that need to feedtheir family and, you know, it's
the drought or it's thecolonialism or it's, you know, whatever
factor it is that are drivingthese people to do these things.
(36:43):
And granted, the people thatare in employing the people to go
hunt the white rhinos maybeare not trying to feed their babies
in that moment.
But like, I don't know, it wasjust super life changing for me to
see how much of an impact thislike eco colonialism mindset that's
(37:08):
been pushed onto so many likeecology and animal students of like,
we need to do this fortress conservation.
We need to put up the wallsand we have to keep everyone out,
including the indigenouspeople and we need to preserve, you
know, this Eden space.
(37:30):
And yeah, to have thatdisrupted and to go talk to these
people that were doing thesereally destructive farming practices
in Kenya and you know, they'rejust normal hungry people, honestly.
Like, they don't have theluxury of thinking, oh, in two seasons
(37:53):
of planting bell peppers here,this land is going to be totally
destroyed and nothing can growon it.
It's like, no, no, I'm starving.
Nothing.
Like my body can't grow, you know?
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
I, that, that took me, thattook me a bit too.
It wasn't until really after,after my, my first, my first round
(38:17):
of school and then I wasworking in wolf conservation and
trying to understand, I mean,you want to talk about a mixed bag
of perceptions and ideas andthings like that, get into wolf stuff.
But then, you know, talkingwith, you know, like landowners and
stuff, and they're like, well,you know, they come after my cows
(38:40):
and so I, I want, I want themhunted, I want them, I want them
killed.
I don't want them in my area.
It's like, it's like, well,yeah, I mean, I, until that situation
is taken care of, you know,it's, it's going to be hard to address
anything else.
And so we, we did all kinds ofstuff with like, different prevention
methods and, and you know,conflict management and stuff.
(39:03):
It reminds me, there's thisquote speaking of Minnesota, Paul,
Paul Wellstone, a famous quoteof his was like, when we all do better,
we all do better.
And extending that to theanimal world as well really, really
does ring true.
Because like what, like whatyou said, humans, whether we like
(39:23):
to think about it or not, Imean, we are animals as well and
we're kind of beholden tothose same instincts of survival
and preservation andprotecting our own and that kind
of thing.
And if, if an animal, whetherit's endangered or not, whether it
serves an ecological role ornot, is getting in the way of like
(39:43):
my well being, my children'swell being.
There's, there's going to besome rise of conflict and stuff.
I'm not going to be able tothink about the importance of preservation
if I'm thinking about my ownpreservation and I.
Yeah, that, that comes intoplay so much.
I mean, just the rhetoricaround a lot of conservation efforts.
(40:05):
There's a lot of like, what'sthe word I'm looking for here?
Like moral imposing or likeethical imposing.
You know, I can't believe thatthey would kill this kind of animal
or that they wouldn't wantthis animal around, or that they
would, that they would turnthis into a crop space or that they
would grow palm here.
(40:26):
And like, these people are badand these people are wrong for doing
this and we need to preventthem from.
And it's like you don't livethere and you don't have the exact
circumstance to reallyconceptualize why that is the case.
And caring for the peopledefinitely, definitely will lead
to some of those biggerpositive changes in the future.
(40:50):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I think it also is not helpedby this kind of stereotype.
Maybe it is.
Or I mean, also like generaltrend that I see in zoologists and
that is that they're like, oh,I don't like people.
That's why I'm out in themiddle of nowhere studying animals.
(41:11):
And it's like, no.
Oh no.
Like, you're the exact person.
We need to like people.
Because honestly, if you'renot, if you're not likable and able
to be persuasive, you can't doanything with your research.
Like, all it does is feedthese, you know, tall academic monoliths.
(41:33):
And it doesn't, it doesn'treally make the change that, I mean,
at least I assume most peoplewant to.
It's hard to watch.
Oh, for sure.
I mean, that's one of thethings I've, I've loved about.
Okay, the Internet and socialmedia definitely have downsides to
(41:56):
them and things.
But one of the things that Ihave loved to see in recent years
in particular has been justthe way that, that science and scientists
have, have been able to moredirectly communicate the work that
they do to more people andthat it has become a little bit less.
This kind of like, you know,ivory tower academia.
(42:20):
You know, people are off doingscience, but then that's not getting
communicated anywhere.
No, it's.
There's like directconversation with the people who
are actually doing the workand stuff and being able to communicate
what they're doing and whyit's important and things.
And it's just that that's amazing.
And it does so many things forunderstanding, for accessibility,
(42:41):
for transparency about theprocess of science and how it's done.
I mean, it's Revolutionary.
And I'm hoping that that meansthat the future will see A more scientifically
literate people and B, morepeople interested in being involved
in the sciences.
I hope so.
And, and at the same time,when we were talking about this,
(43:04):
like, you know, if there'sscarcity, it's harder to do the more
superfluous or the larger goal things.
It makes me think of this likethe chronically underpaid ununionized
science work.
Cause I'm like, I'm in this,it's like wildlife career job board
group on Facebook and it'sreally devastating to see how many
(43:26):
posts are and you know,particularly women saying, I can't
afford to do this anymore.
Like I can't feed my familyand also feed my passion.
And it's just like, oh the,I've been really having to deal with
(43:46):
this scientific expectation oflike your research is your life.
Because like being out here,there's really, there's not that
much access to hobbies.
Like I, I like, I love to gosocial dancing.
That's a big thing for me.
And you're hard pressed to getscientists to dance.
(44:10):
And it's like if, if I wasdoing this project entirely in service
of science, I would be workingfrom 5am straight through to 6pm
with you know, maybe half anhour to go run and get lunch.
And I would be doing this, youknow, seven days a week with maybe
(44:33):
a day off every two weeks.
But like, it's for this reasonI'm thankful that I don't have an
institution that I'm beholdento because like I do take two days
off a week.
And during the hottest part ofthe day when the sun is laser beaming
onto the lake, my redheadedself needs to go hide in a dark corner.
(44:57):
Like, I just turn into alittle crisp if I don't.
But there's this, thisattitude of like, if you're not suffering
for your science, if you'renot putting your heart and your soul
and your energy and your moneyinto this discipline, you're not
doing it good enough.
Like I, it's been a lot of, Iguess, self work to, to come out
(45:25):
here and try and take care ofmyself because I'm surrounded by
these people.
Like, to get to Cochrakashu,typically you gotta be like really
hardcore because it's, it's ahardcore place.
It takes like three days toaccess from the nearest big city.
(45:45):
And so, you know, comparingmyself to these people who are just
die hard all day every day,you know, it makes me feel really
Inadequate to want to takecare of my body and my mental health
and my social relationships.
It's just.
It's hard.
And it.
It does make me doubt, youknow, like, this conservation is
(46:09):
my passion to, like, knowthese animals and to advocate for
them, but if it's gonna grindmy bones into dust and, like, turn
me into a piece of shoeleather, like, I just don't think
it's necessarily sustainable.
Mm.
Oh, one.
I really appreciate youbringing that up and this being a
(46:33):
talking point because, like,you are 100% correct.
I mean, I even remembered someof my initial positions and stuff
where it'd be, like, the endof, like, my scheduled shift, and
I'd be kind of, like, lookingaround for the cues of, like, all
right, yeah, like, it's.
It's the end.
Right?
I'm all good.
And then being met with, like.
(46:54):
Like, well, is the work done?
Is it, like, have you doneeverything that you can do in a day?
And I'm like, if I want to beable to do this long term, maybe,
you know, I do need to.
I do need to rest and takecare of my.
But, like, where, like, theexpectation is like, no, you go until
the end of the day and untilyou can't anymore, and otherwise
(47:18):
you're just.
You're just not doing it right.
And that.
That is something that I hopethat this kind of new wave of.
Of transparency and, you know,seeing the face of the scientists
and not just the scienceallows for is, you know, maybe some.
Some better pay and somebetter conditions.
And, I mean, gosh, how many.
(47:39):
How many people immediatelyafter graduation have to take a position
where the only compensation ishousing at a.
At a research site?
Yeah.
You know, and that's it.
It's just like, yeah, we'vegot a bunkhouse for you to stay in.
This is your entry level, 20miles nearest grocery store.
You have to pay for it.
Yeah, it's like, with what.
(48:01):
How.
Like, it just doesn't.
That does not add up.
And I mean, the verydefinition of sustainability, and
that's what so many of us aretrying to practice, right?
Is.
Is by definition, if you can'tdo it forever, it's not sustainable.
You know, that.
That applies to.
(48:22):
To human behavior and physicalcapability as well.
So I.
I have a kind of a WhatsAppgroup chat with a collection of people
close to me that hear about my adventures.
And I think I was about amonth in, and I was like, you guys,
I need a wife.
Like, I think this is how allthe conservationists did.
They had a Wife to enter theirdata, do the calculations, do their
(48:46):
laundry, cook their food.
You know, give them a littlehug and tell them they did good at
the end of every day.
Like, where's my wife?
So, you know, maybe if I had a slave.
No, no, sorry.
I mean a wife to do all of myextra work for me.
It'd be more sustainable and Icould do these long voyages into
(49:08):
the unknown, you know, workinghard every day.
But like, even though I'mgetting my meals cooked for me by
our wonderful cook Vicky,like, it's still like, oh my goodness,
doing.
I'm so bad at doing laundry by hand.
Like I didn't realize howdifficult it was to scrub a long
(49:29):
sleeve button up.
But it takes me like 15minutes a shirt and that's doing
them shittily.
Like, oh my God, two and ahalf hours to do my laundry for the
week.
Oh, rough.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean you did, you didmention some, some things that you
like to do, you know, as, as ahuman being.
Because scientists are indeedhuman beings.
(49:51):
Right.
And still have all those same things.
Right.
You mentioned.
So you do landscapewatercoloring, which I think is cool.
Event planning.
You read fantasy books.
What, what's, what's your goto for, for books?
Do you have any favoriteseries or anything like that?
It's, it changes depending onkind of where I'm getting my source.
(50:13):
So I started out with Audibleand that was like, okay, I have to
pick one book a month.
So I'm gonna pick the longest,best book I possibly can and I'm
gonna read it at like one timespeed and really savor it.
And then I went toaudiobooks.com and that gave me kind
of a subscription model towhere I could use my credit to join
(50:35):
a book club.
So I joined the fantasy Sci Fibook club and all of the books in
there were like C list books,but you could read a lot of them.
So I just chomped on a lot oflike really, really mid books.
Just like kind of consumingthem for the, for the sake of consuming
(50:56):
them.
And then now I've moved on tousing Libby.
Thank goodness.
How could I have not knownthat the library has an app where
you can get your audiobooksfor free.
And now it's more of a mix.
It's like I put the books thatother people recommend to me on hold
(51:18):
and I, you know, get those andthen I can just instantly access
better than the audiobooks dot com.
They're like C list.
Yeah, but, but those type of books.
But in terms of like go tos, Ireally, I'm trying to move away,
(51:38):
honestly from the majority ofthe like, romance fantasy books.
Not because I have any issuewith the genre of romance.
Like, it's great.
I'm, I'm out in the middle ofnowhere, I have no prospects, I might
as well get invested insomeone else's.
But I've been noticing, oh,there's so many like terrible tropes
of this like sassy heroinethat then meets a man and then he
(52:01):
makes all her decisions forher and she loves it.
And that's like so many ofthose type of books.
But I recently read, I thinkit's called the Adventures of Amina
Al Sirafi and it was fantastic.
It was about a middle agedpirate woman who was, you know, going
(52:24):
through this struggle ofdedication to work or dedication
to family and trying tofulfill this insatiable desire to
explore and to, you know, donew things, but at the same time
being worried for her family'ssafety and you know, the impact of
(52:45):
her actions on those around her.
And it had like, it had alittle tiny bit of romance.
Like her ex husband appears.
But it was so wonderfullycharacter driven by a character archetype
you really don't often see.
You know, not only is it afemale pirate, but it's also a middle
(53:05):
aged mom, you know.
Yeah.
Stunning book.
I'll have to look into that one.
Yeah, I've been reading a lotlately, more than usual.
I had like a dry spell of notreading a whole lot for a few years
and now I'm on like my 14thbook of the year, which is a lot
for me.
I'm reading a few at once andI have, I always have like a range
(53:27):
and some, some that are likefantasy and then science books and
stuff.
And I, I totally know what you mean.
I've.
Because like I've read the,the acotar books, the Thorns and
Roses and that trope and likeeven like getting to the end of them.
I'm like, I still don't likeany of these characters.
(53:48):
I want to finish, I want tofinish the story, but I still don't
like any of you.
Exactly.
It's like, yeah, they'rereally, it's like eating cake.
You know, you eat the cake andyou're like, maybe this cake isn't
the best, but I can't stopeating it.
And I do feel a little sick afterwards.
But like, no, you can't havemy cake.
(54:08):
I'm gonna finish it.
Yep.
Yep, exactly.
Yeah, definitely.
Okay, well before, before wekind of wrap things up and stuff.
I mean, do you have, I guess acouple things.
Do you have advice for anyonewho is either currently in school
(54:29):
or thinking about going intowildlife or conservation or anything
like that, whether it's goingdown a similar pathway to yours or
anything?
Advice that you might give people?
Yeah, I think that kind of twoimportant things.
The first one is to get toknow your professors.
(54:52):
Like I'm glad my school hadlike a pictures with professors.
So on, you know, the firstFriday of every month we'd go sit
down and you could have aalcoholic or non alcoholic drink
with your professor.
And then I would, in order topay attention, I would like sit front
and center in my classes.
And so it really felt a.
(55:13):
I was more motivated to learnbecause when you look the professor
in the eyes you can'tdisengage as well.
And then they also rememberedme and like having them not only
write me letters ofrecommendation, but I got my lemur
job because the professor thatI mentioned I needed my letter of
REC from Dr.
Bransford, he, I was doingsome other project that didn't work
(55:37):
out and he was like, I have ajob for you.
You're going to like it.
Like do this, do this lemurdiet study.
And so the more people thatknow what you're interested in, the
more people will think of youwhen that opportunity comes up and
can send it your way.
And then the other one thatI'm learning here is like, it's a.
(56:02):
You can apply for things younever think you'll get.
And since everyone else alsodidn't think they'd get them and
didn't apply, you might get it.
And it's okay to try somethingif you're not 100% sure and then
use that information to figureout what you do and do not.
(56:23):
Like, like next time I thinkI'll try and work on a team where
I'm not alone for nine hours a day.
You know, somewhere where Ihave shade inside the forest canopy
and maybe an animal that'slike crepuscular so I can take a
midday nap.
(56:43):
Yeah, well, well put, well put.
I mean, do you, do you have I.
Because yeah, you brought upthe lemur thing before and you also
the orangutans and stuff.
I mean, are there any otherlike really just like core memories
that you made in any of thoseexperiences that you'd like to share?
Hmm.
(57:04):
There was a moment near theend of my orangutan research, I was
doing it at Zoo Tampa, lookingat orangutans and managed care.
And I'D go like three hours aweek, and I would note down their
behavior and kind of who theirnearest neighbor was.
But near the end there wasthis big drama.
(57:25):
So there had been a fightbetween two orangutans and the baby
of the group had intervened,gotten his finger broken, finger
got amputated, orangutan gotput in the back for a while.
And when the baby came backout, it was like the baby went to
the other baby's mom insteadof its mom.
(57:48):
And that mom kind of like tookthe baby in.
And then the original motherthat the baby had not gone to got
upset, like, tried to kind ofbeckon the baby back, pull the baby
back.
The baby was like, hell no.
And then the mom went and shegot dirt and she started throwing
the dirt at her baby and theother mother.
(58:09):
And it was like such a scandal.
And I was so engrossed.
And I remember afterwards,like, the gratification of being
able to interpret thesituation when they make no sounds.
Like it's just, you know,context from those many hours I'd
spent watching them and theirexpressive faces and their, and their
(58:32):
behavior.
It's like, oh, I'm starting tolearn how to tell these stories and
understand what's going on ina different species than my own.
Thanks again, Kathryn, forjoining us today.
Your work is a perfect exampleof how conservation is more than
(58:53):
just about animals.
It's about ecosystems.
It's human relationships, theimportance of diverse perspectives
and cultural exchange, and theintricate connections that sustain
life.
From the dense forests of Peruto the ever changing waters these
otters call home.
Your research is helping toilluminate the hidden forces shaping
(59:15):
their survival.
And for that, I'm grateful.
And I'm sure the peoplelistening are too.
If you enjoyed this episodeand want to keep stories like these
coming, consider supportingthe wildlife on patreon@patreon.com
thewildlife for as little as adollar a month.
And wherever you're listening,don't forget to subscribe, leave
a rating or a review, or justshare this episode with a fellow
(59:39):
nature lover.
Until next time, stay curious,stay inspired, and keep exploring.
And thank you for spendingsome of your time with me today.
It means the world Peace outrainbow trouts.
(01:00:08):
SA.
Welcome to the Wildlife.
I'm your guide, Devin Boker.
And today we're venturing deepinto the Amazon to explore the world
of one of its most charismaticyet little known apex predators,
the giant river otter.
These sleek social carnivoresare essential to the health of their
ecosystems.
But their survival depends ona delicate balance, one that is increasingly
(00:46):
under threat.
My guest today, Kathryn Forey,was at the time of our interview
this past July, three monthsinto a nine month Fulbright grant
studying how these otters usetheir space in the Madre de Dios
region of Peru.
She was preparing to soonbegin a new project looking at how
declining fish populationsaffect their food sharing behavior.
(01:07):
Catherine's journey has takenher from studying orangutans to lemurs
protected areas of Kenya.
And today she's here to shareher insights into what these incredible
otters reveal about theAmazon's future.
Let's dive in.
(01:31):
Hi, my name's Catherine or Cat Forey.
I use she her pronouns.
I'm currently in Manu nationalpark in the Madre de Dios region
of Peru and I'm working on myFulbright grant.
I, I have to say when I sawyour information kind of coming through,
I was like, okay, immediatelyhave to have a conversation.
(01:55):
I was like, giant riverotters, Peru.
Like these are like so manyboxes checked.
I was like, we've gotta, okay,we've gotta make this happen, we've
gotta talk.
So I'm really excited rightnow to learn more about what you're
doing and kind of what led you there.
And I guess that's actuallyprobably a good spot to start is
journey like what, what gotyou to where you are at this moment?
(02:17):
Yeah.
So I guess it started when Igot back from my semester in Kenya.
I really needed, I knew Ineeded a letter of recommendation
from this professor that Ihadn't taken a class with yet.
But I was going to be in hislittle like one month field primatology
class.
(02:37):
So I sent him an email thatwas like, hello, you don't know me
at all, but I really am goingto need a letter of recommendation
from you in a month.
What will it take?
And he's like, well, you know,let's just get to know each other
this month.
Turns out he was also fromTexas, close to my hometown.
And so I spent the next yearand a half pretty much continuously
(03:00):
taking his classes and gettingto know him.
And he's a primatologist, buthe helped me figure out that I was
really interested in socialanimal behavior.
He set me up studying somelemurs in Myakka, Florida, as well
as looking at orangutan social webs.
(03:21):
And so when it got nearer totrying to figure out what was I going
to do after graduation, hesuggested that I look into a Fulbright
grant.
And I'd never heard of it.
I just honestly wanted to dosomething outside the country, something
interesting with research.
(03:43):
And from there I got in touchwith my queen.
Her name is also Kat.
So we like to send our emailsback and forth, but just Kat.
Anyways, Kathleen Robinson,she started me on the essentially
like two year process forapplying to this grant.
(04:04):
And it started out I needed tofind where I was gonna go and kind
of what institution.
And honestly, I think thereason that I got this grant is because
instead of like deciding on aplace and my needs and trying to
just like slam them together,I said, okay, I need to go somewhere
(04:25):
with intermediate Spanish.
I'd love to go somewhere inthe rainforest.
And like, that was really myinitial desire.
So I found Cocha KashuResearch Station and I sent Cesar,
the head of science, an email.
I was like, hey, I'm not surewhat I want to do, but can I talk
(04:45):
to you about doing a Fulbrightgrant at your station?
And so I got to talking withhim and kind of asked like, what
social animal projects aregoing on?
And he gave me the option.
He's like, well, you couldstudy the primates, you could study
the macaws or the parrot, oryou could study the river otters.
(05:05):
And I figured that I'd ratherspend my time looking down rather
than looking up.
So I picked the river otters.
And then from there he put mein touch with Dr.
Ade Barrocas, who is the headof the giant river otter conservation
project done through SanDiego, who also or San Diego Zoo
(05:26):
Global, which also manages Cochacashu.
And I asked him, I was like,I'm really interested in like animal
culture, social hierarchy, behavior.
And he was like, well, they dothis pretty unique thing where the
river otters are in extendedfamily groups and there's a breeding
(05:49):
pair and then there's just abunch of relatives.
And by a bunch, I mean like upto 11.
And so the relatives will helpprovision the babies of this main
mating pair.
So they do this really uniquefood sharing system that goes all
the way through adolescence,which is pretty, pretty uncommon
(06:13):
to be feeding not your own babies.
So yeah, he helped me findthis project of looking at what the
difference in food sharingbehavior is between these areas that
have been heavily gold minedand polluted by mercury.
Therefore, like dropping theamount of fish in the water in comparison
(06:36):
with these more protectedlakes here in Manu national park
and the more outlying likeAmarikairi, Amariquerie reserves.
So they're not like quite asprotected, but they still, they're
monitored more for goldmining, so.
Sure.
Yeah, that's.
That's flowcharted my way in.
(06:59):
But.
So you, you mentioned you'reoriginally from Texas, is that right?
Austin, Texas.
Austin, Texas.
Okay.
I'm originally from Houston,so I know Texas is a big place for
sure.
But when people are like,Texas, I'm like, is there a chance
Houston area?
Austin is extraordinary.
It's a really interesting place.
(07:20):
I love the bats.
That's probably my favorite isgoing up and just watching the bats.
Really cool experience.
Yeah, so lovely.
I led a couple canoe trips outunderneath the Bat Bridge for people
who'd like never been canoeing.
And I was like, okay, get in acanoe and we're gonna go sit underneath
some bats.
It was really.
Yeah.
(07:42):
So for those listening whoaren't entirely familiar with what
exactly a Fulbright grant isand how it operates and kind of what
all that involves.
Could you explain that?
Yeah.
So a Fulbright grant, I thinkit was originally started by the
US government with a bigendowment from Mr.
(08:04):
And Mrs.
Fulbright, I believe.
And the idea is kind of tocreate intercultural understanding,
exchange and just likecompetency, I guess.
And so it's both like a softdiplomacy thing that the US does
as well as just like thispretty expansive opportunity for
(08:29):
people to go to different countries.
And it's more well known inother countries as sending people
to the United States.
So whenever I like, I've beendown in Peru, I tell people I'm doing
this Fulbright grant andthey're like, but why are you in
Peru?
I'm like, no, no, no, no, thisis the other way around.
(08:49):
Yeah, yeah.
So there's, and then there'stwo kind of major sections.
There's the English teachingand study or.
Yeah, just English teaching awards.
So assign people and they'llput them in, they'll do their nine
month term there.
And then there's researchstudy awards and I've got a research
study award.
(09:11):
And you have, you affiliatewith an institution.
Usually it's a university, butI'm with San Diego, Peru.
And then you have the optionyou can either kind of like get your
master's degree or take somemaster's classes or you can conduct
some research.
(09:32):
So every month they pay me astipend of the median income of a
person in Peru, I think, orlike minimum Cost of living.
And I send in my monthlyreports, and I adhere to the 10 pages
of guidelines, which,thankfully, isn't too hard when you're
(09:55):
out in the middle of nowhere.
And, yeah, I really.
I like it because I know whenyou're doing institutional research,
there's a lot of pressure todo this, like, publish or perish,
you know, really die hard withwhat you're doing.
And it's felt really good to,like, to me, to assuage my anxieties.
(10:24):
It's like Fulbright has chosenme as a person to do this project
that I've picked to see if Ilike it and if it's meaningful to
me.
And so instead of having thispressure to, like, publish and continue
in this academic career, like,I do want to publish, and I do think
(10:46):
I want to continue inacademia, but, you know, it doesn't
feel like the weight of all ofmy future job or tenure is resting
on this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's.
That's gotta be quite nice.
There's, like a layer offreedom, you know, with it.
Yeah.
(11:06):
And such a remarkable place.
I mean, what.
How long have you been thereso far?
Did you say.
Three months, and in country,three months, 20 days, but here at
the station, like, threemonths, five days, sure.
Okay.
And what.
(11:26):
What would you say so far havebeen some of your more memorable
experiences or even momentswhere, you know, you felt like, wow,
this is a.
This is a very different place.
This is not what I'm used to.
Well, I mean, the first.
(11:46):
The first night I was there,like, I speak Spanish, okay.
Right.
It's not.
It's not amazing.
It's not terrible.
But this meant that there wasthis professor and his student, and
she was a prospective thesisstudent looking to do her research
on Caymans.
(12:08):
And I kind of heard them talking.
And what I interpreted was,we're gonna go walk around the lake
and look for cayman nests at night.
And I was like, oh, hell yeah.
Like, I'd love to go look forsome Cayman nests.
Like, that sounds really cool.
So my first sign that thatwasn't exactly what was happening
was instead of going over tothe trailhead, we went down to the
(12:30):
boat dock.
And I was like, oh, okay.
I guess we're gonna look atthem, you know, from the boat.
So we get in the boat and westart paddling, and neither.
Neither of them can steer.
I'm, like, pretty experiencedin a canoe, but I was in the middle,
so I was trying to steer thecanoe from the middle, and they're
(12:50):
like, okay, we're doing thisEye shine trick for caimans.
Their eyes reflect red if youhold the lamp up to your eyes, kind
of like spiders.
So we spot ourselves a caiman,and they're like, okay, we'll paddle
towards them.
And I was like, okay.
So we paddle towards them, andthey're like, closer, closer, closer.
And I was like, okay.
(13:11):
And then the professor leanshalfway out of the canoe and grabs
this caiman.
And I was like, what?
So, I mean, you know, granted,it's a caiman only like, this big,
like maybe 2.2ft long, but,yeah, they're not.
Still.
I had no idea.
Yeah, I.
(13:32):
I was not expecting it to be a.
A cayman grabbing night, youknow, I really was not prepared.
No.
Was it.
Was it just the.
Just to see the caiman or was it.
No, no, they.
Yeah, they were looking.
They're looking at the lengththey're looking at.
It's like snout to top of thehead length as well as looking for
(13:55):
fingers and toes missing.
So they can do lateridentifications, because turns out
the piranhas in this lake willbite off fingers and toes.
Really?
Feel like, yeah, I've comefull circle because at first it was
like, oh, no, piranhas willeat you if you go in the water.
And then it was like, no, no,piranhas are only scavengers.
They eat dead things.
(14:15):
And I get here, and they'relike, don't stop moving in the water,
or the piranha will take achunk out of you.
Well, yeah, I.
Yeah, grabbing a caiman out ofthe water is a.
That would definitely be kindof a shock for sure.
Something else I learned inKenya was that, like, yeah, carnivores
are dangerous, but also, like,don't fuck with herbivores.
(14:37):
Like, just.
Yeah, if.
If you're gonna get murdered,it's gonna be by an herbivore because
they're like, oh, you're gonnakill my family.
I'm.
I am but one of many.
I will sacrifice myself.
Whereas the carnivores are,you know, a little bit more willing
to let you run away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, my gosh.
I.
I try because I'm inMinnesota, and I try.
(15:00):
You know, people, like, when Igo up north and stuff, people are
like, aren't you ever afraidof, like, bears or wolves?
And I'm like, you know, I'vecome across so many bears, and they
just walk away or they run away.
I've seen wolves.
They run away.
What I'm afraid of is a moose.
Like, that's the one thing Idon't want to Be cornered by is a
moose.
I corner by a wolf, corner bya bear.
I'll even take a mountain lionbefore I'll take a moose.
(15:22):
Like nine foot tall thingflinging through the air.
Yep, that's the one I havetrust issues with.
Yeah.
For real.
I, I spent a couple of mysummers canoeing around.
You might know Camp WidijiWagon, It's a YMCA canoe camp.
(15:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, they had essentially thesame training.
They're like, okay, blackbear, bang some pots and pans together.
Brown bear, we're just noteven gonna worry about that and hope
it doesn't happen.
But the moose, you stay awayfrom those mooses.
Like just steer clear.
If you see them, don't makeeye contact, paddle the other direction
(16:04):
back up slowly.
Like most of the education wasthe anti moose education.
Yeah, yeah.
Not to get, not to get too offtopic, but I remember also when I
learned that they can swimlike something like 20ft below the
surface to graze on aquaticplants and things.
And I'm like, so you'retelling me like hypothetically I
(16:25):
could be scuba diving in alake and then turn to my side and
there's a mo, like no, no, Ilove moves, they're typical.
But jaws, yeah, for sure.
So, yeah, I guess kind of on asimilar note, I mean we have otters
(16:46):
here.
They're quite small.
I do remember learning backand I think it was a wildlife populations
class, just about how muchrange and stuff that they can cover
and how they kind of use theirspace, like even in a given period,
like a given day.
I was like kind offlabbergasted because it just seemed
so much more than what I expected.
(17:08):
How, how, when it comes tolike the giant river otters, how
much space do they use and howdo they compare, you know, size wise
and things with, with likeriver otters in North America that
people might be more familiar with.
Right.
So it really depends on whatseason it is.
(17:31):
So here in the Amazon, they'vegot the wet season and the dry season
and during the dry seasonthey're like day to day, they're
restricted to their lake.
Now Cochac, the lake that I'mon right now that I'm looking out
the window at here, is abouttwo and a half kilometers long and
(17:52):
it's got some swamps and it'sgot a, like a little quebrada, little
stream that goes to some morewater and then it also has a currently
dry canyon that connects tothe river.
So daily they're kind of doinglaps around this lake.
They're going into theswampier areas, spending a lot of
(18:16):
time in some low overhangingtrees, which is really unfortunate
for me because I can't seethem there.
But they also occasionallytake these sojourns.
We're thinking they go intothe creek during the dry season because
it leaves, like, pools wherefish are a lot easier to catch, but
(18:38):
they're really hard, reallyhard to find there.
We found tracks a coupletimes, but have never actually seen
the otters outside of thelake, which we've been trying, but
it's not.
Not super easy.
But in terms of size, Ibelieve they get up to about five
(19:00):
and a half feet.
They have a really long, verypowerful tail.
In fact, when I was firstlooking for the den with the scientific
manager, Cesar, he was like,okay, we gotta be really careful
when we approach this denbecause we're pretty sure they're
not here.
But if they get you look outfor the claws and the tail.
(19:22):
Apparently, like, that'swhat'll get you, you know, it's propelling
them through the water.
Just slapped.
Yeah.
Not sure how big river ottersare, but let's see.
Anything, anything else onthat point?
I mean, they're.
(19:42):
The size of the lake does seemto kind of dictate, like, the size
of family it can support.
So right now our otterpopulation is kind of dying out.
We're down to three.
They've had, like, a litter ofpups the last four years, but none
of them have survived morethan six months to, like, get out
(20:05):
of the den.
But there was recently thisreally big flood that came through,
and that's kind of.
My secondary project right nowis looking at the spatial use of
these otters in the lake.
Taking regular water qualitydata and just trying to, like, determine,
you know, if there's.
(20:27):
If they're catching more fish,you know, if there's a chance that
this environment's going tobecome more hospitable for them or,
you know, if their numbers arejust going to continue to dwindle
and we'll lose this population here?
Sure is.
So is the, the.
The reduction in thepopulation and the.
And the low survivability, is that.
Is that related to the waterquality that you were mentioning
(20:49):
before?
I'm not.
I'm not really sure, honestly,from the introduction I've been trying
to write, I think, like, fishpopulations are pretty affected by
this water quality, and ottersare very affected by fish populations.
They eat primarily fish.
(21:10):
They eat, like, I think it'sfour to six kilos a day of Fish per
otter, which is really liketwelve twelveish pounds, eight to
twelve pounds of fish.
So, you know, I've seen themfeeding on mussels.
I've seen them eat some babycaimans before, but they are really
reliant on.
(21:31):
I can't remember what exactlythe name of these two fish families
are, but they're these fishthat really are reliant on these
kind of messes of branch inthe water and they'll kind of hide
up in there.
And there's, there's one paperthat talks about seasonal flooding
(21:55):
on isolated lakes, but it isin Singapore, but it's the closest
tropical thing I could find.
And that said that it mainlyaffects longer lived larger fish,
which are kind of like thestar prey items for the otters.
But yeah, not, not entirelysure, which is I guess why we're
(22:17):
doing this research to findout if this water quality has, you
know, if it's changedsignificantly because we have some
before data and if so, like,has the frequency of fish being caught
been changed?
Are they spending more time inareas where like the chlorophyll
is higher or the dissolvedoxygen is higher?
Yeah, yeah.
No, that totally makes sense.
(22:38):
Yeah.
What, what have you, like, sofar in these last three months and
things, you know, what, whathave you learned about, about the,
the otters?
Well, let's see.
They.
Firstly, it's been reallygratifying to have them start to
become habituated to me.
(22:59):
So I'm in this like dugoutcanoe paddling around, following
them in the lake.
And they kind of start off bydoing this periscoping behavior where
they lift their neck andshoulders up out of the water, which,
you know, you'd think, oh, aneck that's not very far, but their
neck is like a third of their body.
So they like lift themselvesout of the water and they make these
(23:21):
like, snorting guttural noiseat you, which means, you know, move,
you're in my space.
So it's been really wonderfulto go from them like periscoping,
which is what that behavior iscalled, and snorting at me to now,
so long as I'm not wearing mybright pink rain jacket.
(23:42):
They hate.
They hate the pink rain jacket.
Yeah.
The, the only female in thegroup, Polly, she'll come right up
to my canoe, you know, justlike half a meter away and like stick
her head out of the water andlook at me, look at my canoe and
then go about her business.
Kind of like it feels likeshe's greeting me.
(24:03):
I don't know if that's exactlywhat it is.
You know, if I'm putting my,my Morgan cannon animal hat on.
But sure.
But yeah, that's been great.
And then, I mean, I've learnedthat they do use a lot of shallow
water for catching their prey,which does.
There's conflicting literatureon it.
(24:26):
Some groups say that otterswon't spend time in places that are
shallower than like half a meter.
But that also might bereferring to like if the whole body
of water is shallower thanhalf a meter.
But yeah, they'll, they'll doa lot of fishing in the shallows
(24:46):
of the lake.
And then I think it ends uplike they catch a whole bunch of
small fish at the beginning ofthe day.
Just seems like whatever theycan get.
And then they move on to theselike much higher energy fishing tactics
where they go out into themiddle of the lake, which is like
maybe 3 meters, and they dothis really dramatic, like almost
(25:09):
dolphin like thing where theygo under and then they launch their
whole body out of the water inthis like beautiful arc and then
dive back in.
I think it's like gainingmomentum and taking a breath at the
same time.
So they're just like hoppingand, you know, chasing this fish
along with their two otherfamily members into the shallows.
(25:32):
They'll grab this fish that'slike half their body length and then
the begging starts.
Right, so you'll have oneotter that's just like, you know,
mouth full of fish, makingchewbacca noises essentially, which
indicates I have a fish, you don't.
And then you have the othertwo just making these weird like
(25:55):
cross between a whale, like a,I mean literally a whale.
Large, largest land, largestwater animal, largest animal on earth
noises and some type ofsqueaky bird just like, just like
begging for this fish.
They'll like, you know, do thekind of playful dog asking to play
(26:20):
stance, you know, with theirback legs up and their front legs
down the look.
Yeah.
And then they'll like scuttlearound to the back and they'll make
even more insistent noises.
And then I don't know exactlywhat will motivate them to finally
take the steel, but sometimesthey'll like dip back underwater
(26:43):
and then they'll launchthemselves into the air, grab the
fish away from the one thatcaught it and then just like run
off and you, you can hear themscreaming like all the way across
the lake.
Just these angry, angry, weirdnoises that they sound like they
belong underwater, honestly.
(27:07):
And so, I mean, we alreadytalked kind of about, you know, the,
the fish populations and howthey might be affecting them and
stuff.
And I forgot to even bring up,I mean, you did say so at the end
of this month.
That's kind of your, your nextproject, right, is looking at how,
how the depleted fish, exactlyhow that might be interacting with
(27:28):
or impacting the, the otters.
I finish out this month andthen I am going to come back and
do kind of one last month ofdata collection here.
But this group, the GiantRiver Otter Conservation Project,
does a yearly census.
And so they're essentiallytaking like little snippets of behavior
(27:50):
and spatial usage, kind oflike what I'm doing here, but on
a more.
I don't know exactly thescientific words for this, but they're
taking a lot of differentgroups, whereas I'm taking like the
longer time sample.
And they're also, they'retaking water quality.
(28:10):
They're doing kind of a fishcensus, a Cayman census.
I think they even are lookingat kind of fishing birds in the lakes
that we go to because that'salso a good indicator of how much
energy is passing throughthese trophic systems.
Because I believe caimans takeup like, I think it was 300 kilojoules
(28:36):
maybe of energy.
And then your average bird,which is the only calculation that
exists really for bird energyusage that's closest, would take
up, I think about 1600kilojoules per day.
And then the giant otters takelike 2,300 per otter per day.
(29:00):
So like, they really have thismassive, massive intake of energy.
And it's reflected in like,the local fishermen don't really
like giant otters becausethey're like, oh, they fish the whole
lake.
But yeah, I'm really excitedto go see a whole bunch of different
(29:21):
families of otters.
And yeah, like, I mean, maybeI'm not supposed to wonder this as
strictly an animal scientist,but I've also got my degree in psychology.
So the question is like, is itsimilar to humans in that a lack
(29:42):
of food typically creates more sharing?
Or, you know, is it the reverse?
Is it that they're going to besharing less because there's less
to eat?
And like, what implicationsdoes that have for us as our world
becomes more polluted andthese resources become, you know.
Yeah, reduced.
But yes, will be interestingto see particularly because, yeah,
(30:06):
it's these.
No other groups of otters dothis extended family care thing.
It's pretty unique to these,to these giant ones here.
So I'm not entirely sure like,what, what effect it would have on
other populations of otters.
I do know the, the only otherotter food sharing study that's been
(30:31):
done is in Asian small clawedotters and it found that, let's see,
it was like the adults shareda lot with the juveniles, but that
wasn't affected by abundanceof food, which is not.
I mean I would think that foodabundance would have something to
do with it.
But granted, I think this isalso like these otters are regularly
(30:56):
getting provisioned.
So it's not like a long termlack of food that is being reflected,
it's just like in that dailyfood, food drop that they have left
to shoot them.
Yeah, I mean that is reallyinteresting though.
I mean like, see now you gotme going thinking about the different,
(31:18):
broader implications and things.
But I do always love lookingat different examples of social behavior
in, in animals and like someof those elements.
Like what is, what is the moresignificant drive?
Is there, is there a reallystrong drive of like self preservation
even in these social groups?
(31:38):
Or is the, is the drive tomaintain and protect the whole stronger?
And how do you see thatmanifest in different ways?
It's, it's really interesting.
There's two major theories onwhy sharing happens.
And one of them is essentiallylike conflict avoidance.
(31:58):
When someone is begging atyou, aggressively trying to avoid
giving it to them is a prettydecent energy expenditure.
And then there's also thetheory, I can't remember I was reading
about it this morning, butit's like inclusive fitness, I think
it is.
So it's like if they're evenapproximately in your gene pool,
(32:22):
it's better to, to give themthis food and also to assume that
you will then get some food inreturn or some other benefits.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've seen, Ithink that's like one of the prevailing
ones that I see a lot withbirds in particular that people talk
about where you, you know,the, the, the other males will like
(32:42):
help the male or, or you know,people, the males that were not the
direct mate of the female willstill take care of the, the chicks,
you know, or the eggs andthings like that, that inclusive
fitness piece.
Yeah, either way it's like asuper fascinating topic and I'd have
to assume that there's across,even, even within, you know, like
(33:05):
organisms, across differentspecies and stuff.
There's probably all kinds ofdifferent drivers at play.
But, and I'm the, thepsychology piece I was curious about
because you, yeah.
You have animal studies and psychology.
Does that, do you, do you feellike in your work you, you feel a
(33:26):
lot of interplay between thoseor that maybe the psychology piece
influences Your interest inthe animal behavior aspect or anything
like that?
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's kind of, honestly,it's a little bit of a sticky subject
because, so I got my degreepsychology and animal studies, and
(33:49):
animal studies in particularis more of an anthrozoology degree
looking at the intersectionbetween human and non human animals
rather than strictly zoology.
So I spent a lot of time in myclasses talking about, you know,
when is it appropriate to anthropomorphize?
When is it appropriate to, youknow, access your catalog of human
(34:12):
traits and project them onto animals?
And the answer is, you know,it's different in every case.
I think that it's, it seemsfoolish to never look at human behavior
in reference to animals, like,particularly with social creatures.
(34:34):
But at the same time, if youovergeneralize, like there's the
classic example of thechimpanzee baring their teeth is
like the sign of aggression.
Whereas we look at it andwe're like, oh, they're smiling.
So I don't know, it definitelycan be conflicting for me, but also
(34:56):
really complementary.
I took a animal behavior classat the same time as a social science
class.
And that was so, so funbecause I'd make, I mean, I made
some of the other students inmy social science class uncomfortable
because I'd start talkingabout social situations.
(35:16):
Like you'd be describinganimal behavior like on the college
campus, like, ah, yes, all ofthe males cluster around in this
one place and they take offtheir shirts to display for the females
that they know they're goingto be there, you know, and everyone
in the class is like, yeah.
(35:38):
But I think, honestly, whilepsychology does come into my work
in terms of just like the wayI look at animal behavior, it comes
in a little bit more with thebiggest important thing I learned
while I was in Kenya, and thatis if you want to conserve animals,
(36:00):
you have to help the people first.
And it's, it was honestlyreally embarrassing that it took
me until my junior year ofcollege to really like put together
this idea of, you know, ifpeople are starving, they're going
to do whatever they can tofeed their babies.
(36:20):
It's not necessarily, youknow, malicious people that are poaching
these white rhinos.
It's people that need to feedtheir family and, you know, it's
the drought or it's thecolonialism or it's, you know, whatever
factor it is that are drivingthese people to do these things.
(36:43):
And granted, the people thatare in employing the people to go
hunt the white rhinos maybeare not trying to feed their babies
in that moment.
But like, I don't know, it wasjust super life changing for me to
see how much of an impact thislike eco colonialism mindset that's
(37:08):
been pushed onto so many likeecology and animal students of like,
we need to do this fortress conservation.
We need to put up the wallsand we have to keep everyone out,
including the indigenouspeople and we need to preserve, you
know, this Eden space.
(37:30):
And yeah, to have thatdisrupted and to go talk to these
people that were doing thesereally destructive farming practices
in Kenya and you know, they'rejust normal hungry people, honestly.
Like, they don't have theluxury of thinking, oh, in two seasons
(37:53):
of planting bell peppers here,this land is going to be totally
destroyed and nothing can growon it.
It's like, no, no, I'm starving.
Nothing.
Like my body can't grow, you know?
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
I, that, that took me, thattook me a bit too.
It wasn't until really after,after my, my first, my first round
(38:17):
of school and then I wasworking in wolf conservation and
trying to understand, I mean,you want to talk about a mixed bag
of perceptions and ideas andthings like that, get into wolf stuff.
But then, you know, talkingwith, you know, like landowners and
stuff, and they're like, well,you know, they come after my cows
(38:40):
and so I, I want, I want themhunted, I want them, I want them
killed.
I don't want them in my area.
It's like, it's like, well,yeah, I mean, I, until that situation
is taken care of, you know,it's, it's going to be hard to address
anything else.
And so we, we did all kinds ofstuff with like, different prevention
methods and, and you know,conflict management and stuff.
(39:03):
It reminds me, there's thisquote speaking of Minnesota, Paul,
Paul Wellstone, a famous quoteof his was like, when we all do better,
we all do better.
And extending that to theanimal world as well really, really
does ring true.
Because like what, like whatyou said, humans, whether we like
(39:23):
to think about it or not, Imean, we are animals as well and
we're kind of beholden tothose same instincts of survival
and preservation andprotecting our own and that kind
of thing.
And if, if an animal, whetherit's endangered or not, whether it
serves an ecological role ornot, is getting in the way of like
(39:43):
my well being, my children'swell being.
There's, there's going to besome rise of conflict and stuff.
I'm not going to be able tothink about the importance of preservation
if I'm thinking about my ownpreservation and I.
Yeah, that, that comes intoplay so much.
I mean, just the rhetoricaround a lot of conservation efforts.
(40:05):
There's a lot of like, what'sthe word I'm looking for here?
Like moral imposing or likeethical imposing.
You know, I can't believe thatthey would kill this kind of animal
or that they wouldn't wantthis animal around, or that they
would, that they would turnthis into a crop space or that they
would grow palm here.
(40:26):
And like, these people are badand these people are wrong for doing
this and we need to preventthem from.
And it's like you don't livethere and you don't have the exact
circumstance to reallyconceptualize why that is the case.
And caring for the peopledefinitely, definitely will lead
to some of those biggerpositive changes in the future.
(40:50):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I think it also is not helpedby this kind of stereotype.
Maybe it is.
Or I mean, also like generaltrend that I see in zoologists and
that is that they're like, oh,I don't like people.
That's why I'm out in themiddle of nowhere studying animals.
(41:11):
And it's like, no.
Oh no.
Like, you're the exact person.
We need to like people.
Because honestly, if you'renot, if you're not likable and able
to be persuasive, you can't doanything with your research.
Like, all it does is feedthese, you know, tall academic monoliths.
(41:33):
And it doesn't, it doesn'treally make the change that, I mean,
at least I assume most peoplewant to.
It's hard to watch.
Oh, for sure.
I mean, that's one of thethings I've, I've loved about.
Okay, the Internet and socialmedia definitely have downsides to
(41:56):
them and things.
But one of the things that Ihave loved to see in recent years
in particular has been justthe way that, that science and scientists
have, have been able to moredirectly communicate the work that
they do to more people andthat it has become a little bit less.
This kind of like, you know,ivory tower academia.
(42:20):
You know, people are off doingscience, but then that's not getting
communicated anywhere.
No, it's.
There's like directconversation with the people who
are actually doing the workand stuff and being able to communicate
what they're doing and whyit's important and things.
And it's just that that's amazing.
And it does so many things forunderstanding, for accessibility,
(42:41):
for transparency about theprocess of science and how it's done.
I mean, it's Revolutionary.
And I'm hoping that that meansthat the future will see A more scientifically
literate people and B, morepeople interested in being involved
in the sciences.
I hope so.
And, and at the same time,when we were talking about this,
(43:04):
like, you know, if there'sscarcity, it's harder to do the more
superfluous or the larger goal things.
It makes me think of this likethe chronically underpaid ununionized
science work.
Cause I'm like, I'm in this,it's like wildlife career job board
group on Facebook and it'sreally devastating to see how many
(43:26):
posts are and you know,particularly women saying, I can't
afford to do this anymore.
Like I can't feed my familyand also feed my passion.
And it's just like, oh the,I've been really having to deal with
(43:46):
this scientific expectation oflike your research is your life.
Because like being out here,there's really, there's not that
much access to hobbies.
Like I, I like, I love to gosocial dancing.
That's a big thing for me.
And you're hard pressed to getscientists to dance.
(44:10):
And it's like if, if I wasdoing this project entirely in service
of science, I would be workingfrom 5am straight through to 6pm
with you know, maybe half anhour to go run and get lunch.
And I would be doing this, youknow, seven days a week with maybe
(44:33):
a day off every two weeks.
But like, it's for this reasonI'm thankful that I don't have an
institution that I'm beholdento because like I do take two days
off a week.
And during the hottest part ofthe day when the sun is laser beaming
onto the lake, my redheadedself needs to go hide in a dark corner.
(44:57):
Like, I just turn into alittle crisp if I don't.
But there's this, thisattitude of like, if you're not suffering
for your science, if you'renot putting your heart and your soul
and your energy and your moneyinto this discipline, you're not
doing it good enough.
Like I, it's been a lot of, Iguess, self work to, to come out
(45:25):
here and try and take care ofmyself because I'm surrounded by
these people.
Like, to get to Cochrakashu,typically you gotta be like really
hardcore because it's, it's ahardcore place.
It takes like three days toaccess from the nearest big city.
(45:45):
And so, you know, comparingmyself to these people who are just
die hard all day every day,you know, it makes me feel really
Inadequate to want to takecare of my body and my mental health
and my social relationships.
It's just.
It's hard.
And it.
It does make me doubt, youknow, like, this conservation is
(46:09):
my passion to, like, knowthese animals and to advocate for
them, but if it's gonna grindmy bones into dust and, like, turn
me into a piece of shoeleather, like, I just don't think
it's necessarily sustainable.
Mm.
Oh, one.
I really appreciate youbringing that up and this being a
(46:33):
talking point because, like,you are 100% correct.
I mean, I even remembered someof my initial positions and stuff
where it'd be, like, the endof, like, my scheduled shift, and
I'd be kind of, like, lookingaround for the cues of, like, all
right, yeah, like, it's.
It's the end.
Right?
I'm all good.
And then being met with, like.
(46:54):
Like, well, is the work done?
Is it, like, have you doneeverything that you can do in a day?
And I'm like, if I want to beable to do this long term, maybe,
you know, I do need to.
I do need to rest and takecare of my.
But, like, where, like, theexpectation is like, no, you go until
the end of the day and untilyou can't anymore, and otherwise
(47:18):
you're just.
You're just not doing it right.
And that.
That is something that I hopethat this kind of new wave of.
Of transparency and, you know,seeing the face of the scientists
and not just the scienceallows for is, you know, maybe some.
Some better pay and somebetter conditions.
And, I mean, gosh, how many.
(47:39):
How many people immediatelyafter graduation have to take a position
where the only compensation ishousing at a.
At a research site?
Yeah.
You know, and that's it.
It's just like, yeah, we'vegot a bunkhouse for you to stay in.
This is your entry level, 20miles nearest grocery store.
You have to pay for it.
Yeah, it's like, with what.
(48:01):
How.
Like, it just doesn't.
That does not add up.
And I mean, the verydefinition of sustainability, and
that's what so many of us aretrying to practice, right?
Is.
Is by definition, if you can'tdo it forever, it's not sustainable.
You know, that.
That applies to.
(48:22):
To human behavior and physicalcapability as well.
So I.
I have a kind of a WhatsAppgroup chat with a collection of people
close to me that hear about my adventures.
And I think I was about amonth in, and I was like, you guys,
I need a wife.
Like, I think this is how allthe conservationists did.
They had a Wife to enter theirdata, do the calculations, do their
(48:46):
laundry, cook their food.
You know, give them a littlehug and tell them they did good at
the end of every day.
Like, where's my wife?
So, you know, maybe if I had a slave.
No, no, sorry.
I mean a wife to do all of myextra work for me.
It'd be more sustainable and Icould do these long voyages into
(49:08):
the unknown, you know, workinghard every day.
But like, even though I'mgetting my meals cooked for me by
our wonderful cook Vicky,like, it's still like, oh my goodness,
doing.
I'm so bad at doing laundry by hand.
Like I didn't realize howdifficult it was to scrub a long
(49:29):
sleeve button up.
But it takes me like 15minutes a shirt and that's doing
them shittily.
Like, oh my God, two and ahalf hours to do my laundry for the
week.
Oh, rough.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean you did, you didmention some, some things that you
like to do, you know, as, as ahuman being.
Because scientists are indeedhuman beings.
(49:51):
Right.
And still have all those same things.
Right.
You mentioned.
So you do landscapewatercoloring, which I think is cool.
Event planning.
You read fantasy books.
What, what's, what's your goto for, for books?
Do you have any favoriteseries or anything like that?
It's, it changes depending onkind of where I'm getting my source.
(50:13):
So I started out with Audibleand that was like, okay, I have to
pick one book a month.
So I'm gonna pick the longest,best book I possibly can and I'm
gonna read it at like one timespeed and really savor it.
And then I went toaudiobooks.com and that gave me kind
of a subscription model towhere I could use my credit to join
(50:35):
a book club.
So I joined the fantasy Sci Fibook club and all of the books in
there were like C list books,but you could read a lot of them.
So I just chomped on a lot oflike really, really mid books.
Just like kind of consumingthem for the, for the sake of consuming
(50:56):
them.
And then now I've moved on tousing Libby.
Thank goodness.
How could I have not knownthat the library has an app where
you can get your audiobooksfor free.
And now it's more of a mix.
It's like I put the books thatother people recommend to me on hold
(51:18):
and I, you know, get those andthen I can just instantly access
better than the audiobooks dot com.
They're like C list.
Yeah, but, but those type of books.
But in terms of like go tos, Ireally, I'm trying to move away,
(51:38):
honestly from the majority ofthe like, romance fantasy books.
Not because I have any issuewith the genre of romance.
Like, it's great.
I'm, I'm out in the middle ofnowhere, I have no prospects, I might
as well get invested insomeone else's.
But I've been noticing, oh,there's so many like terrible tropes
of this like sassy heroinethat then meets a man and then he
(52:01):
makes all her decisions forher and she loves it.
And that's like so many ofthose type of books.
But I recently read, I thinkit's called the Adventures of Amina
Al Sirafi and it was fantastic.
It was about a middle agedpirate woman who was, you know, going
(52:24):
through this struggle ofdedication to work or dedication
to family and trying tofulfill this insatiable desire to
explore and to, you know, donew things, but at the same time
being worried for her family'ssafety and you know, the impact of
(52:45):
her actions on those around her.
And it had like, it had alittle tiny bit of romance.
Like her ex husband appears.
But it was so wonderfullycharacter driven by a character archetype
you really don't often see.
You know, not only is it afemale pirate, but it's also a middle
(53:05):
aged mom, you know.
Yeah.
Stunning book.
I'll have to look into that one.
Yeah, I've been reading a lotlately, more than usual.
I had like a dry spell of notreading a whole lot for a few years
and now I'm on like my 14thbook of the year, which is a lot
for me.
I'm reading a few at once andI have, I always have like a range
(53:27):
and some, some that are likefantasy and then science books and
stuff.
And I, I totally know what you mean.
I've.
Because like I've read the,the acotar books, the Thorns and
Roses and that trope and likeeven like getting to the end of them.
I'm like, I still don't likeany of these characters.
(53:48):
I want to finish, I want tofinish the story, but I still don't
like any of you.
Exactly.
It's like, yeah, they'rereally, it's like eating cake.
You know, you eat the cake andyou're like, maybe this cake isn't
the best, but I can't stopeating it.
And I do feel a little sick afterwards.
But like, no, you can't havemy cake.
(54:08):
I'm gonna finish it.
Yep.
Yep, exactly.
Yeah, definitely.
Okay, well before, before wekind of wrap things up and stuff.
I mean, do you have, I guess acouple things.
Do you have advice for anyonewho is either currently in school
(54:29):
or thinking about going intowildlife or conservation or anything
like that, whether it's goingdown a similar pathway to yours or
anything?
Advice that you might give people?
Yeah, I think that kind of twoimportant things.
The first one is to get toknow your professors.
(54:52):
Like I'm glad my school hadlike a pictures with professors.
So on, you know, the firstFriday of every month we'd go sit
down and you could have aalcoholic or non alcoholic drink
with your professor.
And then I would, in order topay attention, I would like sit front
and center in my classes.
And so it really felt a.
(55:13):
I was more motivated to learnbecause when you look the professor
in the eyes you can'tdisengage as well.
And then they also rememberedme and like having them not only
write me letters ofrecommendation, but I got my lemur
job because the professor thatI mentioned I needed my letter of
REC from Dr.
Bransford, he, I was doingsome other project that didn't work
(55:37):
out and he was like, I have ajob for you.
You're going to like it.
Like do this, do this lemurdiet study.
And so the more people thatknow what you're interested in, the
more people will think of youwhen that opportunity comes up and
can send it your way.
And then the other one thatI'm learning here is like, it's a.
(56:02):
You can apply for things younever think you'll get.
And since everyone else alsodidn't think they'd get them and
didn't apply, you might get it.
And it's okay to try somethingif you're not 100% sure and then
use that information to figureout what you do and do not.
(56:23):
Like, like next time I thinkI'll try and work on a team where
I'm not alone for nine hours a day.
You know, somewhere where Ihave shade inside the forest canopy
and maybe an animal that'slike crepuscular so I can take a
midday nap.
(56:43):
Yeah, well, well put, well put.
I mean, do you, do you have I.
Because yeah, you brought upthe lemur thing before and you also
the orangutans and stuff.
I mean, are there any otherlike really just like core memories
that you made in any of thoseexperiences that you'd like to share?
Hmm.
(57:04):
There was a moment near theend of my orangutan research, I was
doing it at Zoo Tampa, lookingat orangutans and managed care.
And I'D go like three hours aweek, and I would note down their
behavior and kind of who theirnearest neighbor was.
But near the end there wasthis big drama.
(57:25):
So there had been a fightbetween two orangutans and the baby
of the group had intervened,gotten his finger broken, finger
got amputated, orangutan gotput in the back for a while.
And when the baby came backout, it was like the baby went to
the other baby's mom insteadof its mom.
(57:48):
And that mom kind of like tookthe baby in.
And then the original motherthat the baby had not gone to got
upset, like, tried to kind ofbeckon the baby back, pull the baby
back.
The baby was like, hell no.
And then the mom went and shegot dirt and she started throwing
the dirt at her baby and theother mother.
(58:09):
And it was like such a scandal.
And I was so engrossed.
And I remember afterwards,like, the gratification of being
able to interpret thesituation when they make no sounds.
Like it's just, you know,context from those many hours I'd
spent watching them and theirexpressive faces and their, and their
(58:32):
behavior.
It's like, oh, I'm starting tolearn how to tell these stories and
understand what's going on ina different species than my own.
Thanks again, Kathryn, forjoining us today.
Your work is a perfect exampleof how conservation is more than
(58:53):
just about animals.
It's about ecosystems.
It's human relationships, theimportance of diverse perspectives
and cultural exchange, and theintricate connections that sustain
life.
From the dense forests of Peruto the ever changing waters these
otters call home.
Your research is helping toilluminate the hidden forces shaping
(59:15):
their survival.
And for that, I'm grateful.
And I'm sure the peoplelistening are too.
If you enjoyed this episodeand want to keep stories like these
coming, consider supportingthe wildlife on patreon@patreon.com
thewildlife for as little as adollar a month.
And wherever you're listening,don't forget to subscribe, leave
a rating or a review, or justshare this episode with a fellow
(59:39):
nature lover.
Until next time, stay curious,stay inspired, and keep exploring.
And thank you for spendingsome of your time with me today.
It means the world Peace outrainbow trouts.
(01:00:08):
SA.
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