LUCAS CURCIO - Choosing Faith Over Fads: The Truth About Power, Ego, and Online Influence - The Will Spencer Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:26):
Foreign welcome to the WillSpencer Podcast.

(00:49):
This is a weekly interviewshow where I sit down and talk with
authors, thought leaders andinfluencers who help us understand
our changing world.
New episodes release every Friday.
My guest this week is Lucas Curcio.
Lucas was born and resides inNew Jersey.
He grew up in a Christianfamily and they attended a Reformed
church.
In his late teens, he came toChrist by reading the scriptures
and hearing what it means tobe a true Christian.

(01:10):
Fast Forward to his mid-20sand he felt a call to the pastorate
and attended college andgraduated with his master's in Biblical
Exposition from Liberty University.
He recently accepted a call topastor the Mission church in Paramus,
New Jersey.
He is married and has one kid.
He also hosts and managesMethod Ministries along with a podcast,
doing talks, debates,interviews, and more.

(01:32):
You can follow him on xInstagram and YouTube.
Lucas, welcome to the WillSpencer Podcast.
Thanks for having me, Will.
I generally feel honored to be here.
Well, you've been a bigblessing to me in building our friendship
and I know that you have beenfor many other men as well, a real
inspiration.
And one of the things thatI've noticed is you.

(01:54):
You have your podcasts andlive streams and you will interview
and do great interviews withmany men, but no one really asks
you, gets a chance to ask you,who are you?
You're kind of like the man of mystery.
I hear a rumor that you'reBatman, so I wanted to sit down and
confirm or deny those rumors.
So thanks for joining me today.
I can neither confirm nordeny, but I do say because I live

(02:17):
in New Jersey, people don'tknow this in the comics.
Gotham is in New Jersey.
So like, on my Twitter, I putGotham, New Jersey just because I
didn't want to share my real location.
But now I'm in Paramus.
Just to let people know.
Hey, as you mentioned, I'm apastor at the mission church.
So when he's in the area, Iwant them to come to our church.
So now I kind of let people know.
But yeah, I mean,congratulations about accepting the

(02:39):
pastorate.
That's a really big deal and Iknow that's something that you've
been working towards for a while.
I mean, when you accepted thepastorate, I didn't know that was
the direction that you weregoing in.
But.
But it's been amazing tolisten to your sermons and see that
growth.
So maybe we can just startthere, talk about this new pastoring
job.
I think it's your firstpastoring role that you've taken

(03:00):
on.
So let's Just start there andsee where things go.
Yeah, so it was a realblessing to get this one because.
So me and my wife, we're both born.
Well, she was born in NewYork, but New York is not a couple
hours away.
It was over the board, like 30minutes from me or 40.
But we didn't want to move outof the area.
I love New Jersey, too, and Icare for New Jersey spiritually too.

(03:21):
So I've been a Christian sinceI've been 18, and we're in a blue
state and wokeness hit us hard.
And, you know, the New Jerseybubble of Christendom around here
is all connected.
And I think Christendom like.
Like, you know, in a broadsense, because most of them are just
very typical American Christianity.
Very liberal, very, you know,feminized, egalitarian, all this
ooey gooey, you know, socialjustice stuff.

(03:44):
So I.
I didn't want to leave NewJersey because there's a real.
There's a big need for strong,biblical, faithful churches and pastors,
too.
So I was really happy to takethis position because for a while.
So I got married in 2022, Iwas still pursuing pastoral ministry,
but when you get a wife, youknow, you have to as.
As, you know, like, you know,as engaged, like, you know, you got

(04:05):
to provide.
So I was thinking, okay, youknow, let me just do my school and
I'll just, you know, continueat my job, because I did have a really
good job that got answered toprayer right before we got married.
After we got engaged, he gaveme a good job, thankfully.
And so, you know, I was just.
Just going to pursue that andkeep pursuing ministry.
You know, I have my podcastgoing on, and then, you know, that.
That desire to be a pastorstill came back, and this.

(04:28):
This opportunity opened up atthe mission church.
It belongs to the LutheranBrethren denomination.
So I grew up in the Reformedchurch as.
As, you know, but for me, Ididn't know what that meant, like,
and they didn't really getinto the doctrines of what that meant
other than just teaching us,like, the Bible and, like, the broad
stories that we all know and hear.
But I did enter into the Braceyourself, because I know it's a Calvinist

(04:49):
po.
I did enter into the ArminianWesleyan side, but I go to a Lutheran
Brethren Church, and we have.
Have a lot in common.
And there's a need for theLutheran Brethren churches now, too,
because they're hurting with pastors.
And so this job opened up, soI was grateful to take it.
You know, I was really happyto be Here I am really happy to be
here.
And hopefully, you know, just God.
God can use, you know, thischurch to, To.

(05:11):
To reach New Jersey and buildup the church and, and just try to
help.
Help us, you know, because,like, the, you know, again, like,
there's a real need in, in the state.
And usually when you hearabout solid churches, like, they
tend to be out west, theydon't really tend to be in New Jersey.
So, like, I'm just trying toplant my flag where the flag needs
to be planted for Jesus.
Amen.
Well, this conversation wasforeordained from the foundations

(05:32):
of the earth, so.
Well, let's talk a little bitabout your background.
You mentioned that you becamea Christian, I think you said, when
you were 18, but you were kindof raised in the Reformed church,
so you didn't.
Maybe.
It sounds like you didn'tactually know too much, just kind
of grew up around it.
And then it was in 18, you actually.
When the pieces kind ofclicked together for you.

(05:54):
Yeah, so we went to church on Sundays.
We did, you know, you know,Sunday school in the morning, youth
group.
It was a good church.
And even looking back now at,you know, being, you know, since
being a pastor, I'm actuallythinking about how my church used
to do it.
And even the pastor, PastorKeuken was his name and some of the
stuff that he would do, how hewould preach and teach.
And I'm seeing, you know, whatthey actually did did a pretty good

(06:15):
job at the whole structure andjust like the whole logistics that
go behind.
But yeah, so for me, reformed again.
Like.
Like that didn't mean anything.
Like, I didn't know what that meant.
It was just going to church onSundays for us.
So they taught us the Bible.
My parents were Christians, sothey raised us in that too.
Again, like, youth group,Sunday school.
Then Fast forward to 18.

(06:35):
My older brother, he became aChristian and he was in the Navy
at the time.
And there was a bigtransformation when he came to Christ.
And so, you know, all myfamily saw it.
It was kind of just like nightand day and through him that got
me introduced and looking into Christianity.
So I started to listen to,like, pastors who were teaching what
is true Christianity, whatdoes it mean to be a Christian, you

(06:57):
know, using terms like beingborn again, regeneration, talking
about first John, like how wecan know if we're saved and if we're
not saved, what Jesus did onthe cross.
And so while that washappening, while I was listening
to that, seeing my brother, Ialso got into the Word.
And so I Started to read theWord, and I started to develop, like,
a real hunger for God's Word.
Like, I would just spend a lotof time in it, even devouring it,

(07:18):
and then listening again,like, simultaneously listening what
it means to be a trueChristian, you know, what the gospel
is.
And I couldn't pinpoint theexact day, but it was during that
season where there was achange in me, where I started to
believe for the first time.
And internally, again, like, Ihad these hungers, these desires
for God.
When I sinned, I started toget a conviction, wanted to spend
time in His Word.

(07:38):
Even when I wouldn't spendtime in His Word, you know, I'd be
convicted.
Like, I would feel like Imissed out, like, on a meal.
And so the.
Was just a transformation forme through the simplicity of hearing
what the Gospel is, what itmeans to be a Christian, and reading
the Word.
Because it wasn't throughexterior factors like, I guess, going
to a church like some otherChristians or being handed a track

(07:59):
on the street or hearing a preacher.
It was through in my bedroom,mostly alone, reading the scriptures,
praying, and again, listeningon YouTube to pastors.
It's a.
That's a picture that I didn'tgrow up with, you know, sitting.
Sitting alone as a.
As a young man reading thescriptures, but it's a.
It's a moving portrayal.
And.
And your brother.
Your brother inspired that in you.

(08:21):
Yeah, so.
Because he was, so.
He was going down a bad path,and he was in the Navy at the time,
too, so that had a real bad,Bad influence on him as well.
Yeah.
So, like, you know, the wholenine yards.
Sadly, he.
He's actually walked away from.
From the faith in my book now.
But, you know, during the time God.
God still used him tointroduce me to Christianity.

(08:42):
So, you know, it's a part ofmy testimony.
Regardless of what and wherehe is now, I mean, I hope he's saved
now.
To this day, he actuallydoesn't talk to us, and I'm okay
saying that.
And us being my family, justme, like, my entire family.
But, you know, regardless,like, that's a part of my testimony
that God used.
And so, you know, I'm gratefulfor that time.
So does he know that you're apastor now?

(09:04):
That must be.
Maybe that would be inspiringto him to see that his early explorations
of faith inspired you.
Now you're a pastor, andperhaps, God willing, that can re.
Inspire him.
I.
Yeah, he.
I'm positive he does knowbecause there's like one or two of
my family members that heKeeps in touch with.
So I'm positive he knows.
He knows about, you know,since I've been married, about my

(09:24):
kid.
So, yeah, he definitely knows.
You know, whether or not helistens, who knows?
Maybe he does.
Well, pray to God that, that he.
That he is inspired.
That he.
That he is inspired by yourstory as.
As you inspired him.
So.
So when you discovered thescriptures and.
And you, things started tochange for you.
What path had you been onbefore when you were getting ready

(09:45):
to go to college because youended up getting a master's, let's
say I have it here.
Your master's in biblicalexposition were.
What direction were you headed?
And then you diverted into amore ministerial call.
So I went to college late in life.
So pre Christ, I didn't thinkabout certain things.
Like, I never thought aboutthe gospel.

(10:06):
Didn't really think about, youknow, so much or really just didn't
really think about God.
Like, it just wasn't on theforefront of my mind.
So 18 is when, you know, Ifirst came to faith, and that's when
that.
That all changed.
But I didn't go to college,and I was without direction for many
years.
Like, looking back on my early20s, I'm like, a lot of guys, I wasted

(10:26):
it.
I blew it.
I just worked.
You know, unfortunately, I didnot go to college early.
I wish I would have.
I'm not saying college is foreverybody, because I don't think
it is, especially with thedirection that it's going now.
Correct.
Correct.
I always wanted to go to college.
I just didn't know what Iwould go for.
So I didn't have direction.
I didn't have that strong,influential father figure in my life.

(10:49):
So I had to learn these thingsthe hard way.
Even my younger brother, too,who I'm close with, we had to learn
these things the hard way.
We had to make a lot of mistakes.
So we know what it means to.
To suffer.
You know, contrary to thecolor of my skin, I was not that
white privileged boy.
I was.
I.
I was homeschooled my wholelife, actually, and very secluded

(11:09):
in my homeschool upbringing.
Like, very isolated.
Didn't have a lot of interactions.
You know, there's good ways todo homeschool and there's bad ways
to do homeschool.
You know, my upbringing wasnot the good way to do it.
So we had to learn when wefinally become men, face the real
world.
We had to learn a lot ofthings and play catch up.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
So I went.
I went to college when I was27 years old.

(11:31):
So I'm 34 now.
So when I was 27 is when Ifinally decided, you know what?
I want to go to college.
Because I was feeling the calltowards ministry, didn't know what
to do at the time.
So I said, let me pursue thisso I can, you know, learn the Bible
better, learn to be a betterteacher and work towards becoming
a pastor.
And so that's what I did at 27years old or 28.
That's so.
That's so interesting thatthat isn't what I would have.

(11:53):
I wouldn't have.
I would have expected, youknow, because you.
You present yourself and youseem to be quite put together and
articulate, you know, and.
And so, praise God, that, youknow, I can certainly understand
wandering quite a bit throughthe early 20s.
And I think that's a.
That's a experience many men have.
And certainly I can look backon my own life and see, like, oh,
praise God for leading me outof my own version of that.

(12:14):
So I'm very.
I'm very grateful to hear your story.
And I don't think enough menappreciate the power of the gospel
to not just redeem us fromsinful choices, but to redeem us
from wandering and a aimlesslessness and purposelessness.
You know what's funny?
I.
I literally remember in myyounger 20s, in my late teens, praying

(12:36):
to God, I don't know what to do.
Yeah, like, literally, I didnot know what to do.
I didn't have meaning.
I didn't know what path to pursue.
And that.
And that is, you know, as Isaid, too, like, that's not uncommon.
A lot of guys with ourculture, the way they were raised,
we're not set up right.
And so we do, you know, men'slives really tend to start in their
30s.
Like, my life got better in mylate 20s.

(12:56):
Like, that's just a fact.
That's when I reallydiscovered a lot of these valuable,
traditional things that, like,man, I wish I would have done this
in my 20s.
If I did, I would have crushed it.
But that's just the way, youknow the name of the game.
It's almost like you have togo through those certain things in
life as men.
Like, you have to just makethose mistakes.
And 30s is where it reallykicks off for men.

(13:17):
Yes.
I've long said that you don'tactually discover how useful you
can be as a man until you're 35.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter who you are.
It's the same way, like,puberty Hits when you're a teenager,
you as a man do not discoverhow useful you are until you're 35
years old and there's nothingyou can do to accelerate it.
Whoever you are at 28, 30, 33,you will not know until you're 35.

(13:37):
Because that was, that waswhat was true for me.
I remember everyone was like,oh, you're going to turn, we're going
to turn 30.
And I turned 30.
It was like, okay, nothing happened.
But when I turned 35, suddenlyI was forced to contemplate the notion
of, of 40.
And then it was like this kindof wake up call.
Like, oh, wow, there's a wholebig ocean of life ahead I better
start thinking about.
And it was literally that year2013, that things really started

(13:58):
to change for me.
So.
I know exactly what you mean.
How old do you know, if youdon't mind me asking, are you 30?
36?
I'm 47.
You know you're not.
Yes, I am.
Dude, you look great for your age.
What is your secret?
I honestly, it's a, it's a,maybe it's a blessing from God.
I don't know.
My, my dad's 79 and he looksquite a bit younger as well, so maybe
it's just something that runsin my family.

(14:20):
Yeah, I always say when I'm40, so.
So as I told you, I justshave, but when I'm 40, I'm going
to definitely shave becauseI'll look like I'm 30, so.
Okay.
I definitely, I literallyshave years off myself.
Really?
Every time when you, when youtake off the beard?
Oh, yeah.
I definitely look a coupleyears younger.
Especially when I grow myhair, I look a little bit older,
but I'm 40.
I'm going to have short hair,clean shave face, so I look like

(14:42):
I'm 30 or 25.
Got it.
That's a good strategy.
That's a good strategy.
See, if I, if I shave thebeard, I don't know who I'd be anymore.
I've had it, I've had it forso long.
It's just part of my identity now.
But you have hair, so.
Yeah, I got options.
Yeah, God bless me through myItalian father with that.
Exactly, exactly.
Well, maybe you mentioned thatyou didn't have a, have a strong
father figure.

(15:03):
Do you want to talk a littlebit about that?
Because I think a lot of thesethemes, we don't have to dig too
far into your family if you'renot comfortable with it, obviously.
But, you know, I think a lotof these Themes are very relevant
for many men at various stagesof their lives.
They didn't grow up with astrong father who led them in the
ways that they needed.
They ended.
They ended up in the.
Entered.
Entered into the world.
And they wandered around for awhile and then at some point, God,
like, you know, picked them upand said, okay, go that way.

(15:25):
Like, yes, Lord.
And then they end up findingthe traditional path.
But they still look back andsay, these were the things that I
didn't learn, that I wish Iknew, and I wish I had learned them
when I was younger.
But then there's the desire topass them on to our own kids.
Yeah, you know, so what'sreally interesting for me is that
being that I'm married andhave a daughter, I look back on my

(15:46):
dad's life and I understandhim better.
Even his struggles.
And I didn't see at the time,going through that.
In the moment there was anger,there was tension, there was fighting.
But now, as I get older, it'slike, man, I understand him.
Like, I understand why he wasgoing through this.
And, you know, when he.
When he was at this point inhis life and when he was even times

(16:07):
upset and down and depressedbecause life.
Life is hard as a man, youknow, it really is.
And it's interesting seeingthat because, like, the older you
grow up.
Elliot hall said this.
I don't know if you know whoElliot Halse is.
Elliot Hulse.
Yes, of course.
Yeah, he's a Roman Catholic.
I still listen to him time to time.
But there was a time in mylife where I used to listen to him

(16:28):
more and he said some good things.
And still to this day, fathers.
And I think it's reallyimportant that men respect their
father, not just girls.
I think girls should respecttheir father too.
But men also have to respecttheir father.
And what happens in life withmen is they enter.
So it starts off with theaffection of your mother.
You love your mother.
She's kind, she's warm.
And with your father, it kindof seems like you're at odds with

(16:50):
him.
But as you get older, you haveto come to reconciliation with your
father.
There has to be thisacceptance with him.
And you see that older as youbecome older, in life, as you do
the things that men do, likego to work, you know, get married,
become fathers.
You start to understand yourfather more.
You fall back on his lineage,his heritage, his tradition.

(17:11):
You pick up on what he did.
Even if he didn't tell youdirectly or teach you directly, you
realize, wow, actually Ididn't know that seeing him do certain
things and, you know, likejust fixing toilets, you know, when
it's clogged, actually helpsme to know what to do in certain
situations.
So you become reconciled withhim, if not explicitly.
It's implicitly.

(17:31):
And so it's really important,you know, that men do that because
it's represented.
It's.
It's represent.
I can't say it right.
It's representative.
There we go.
Of your relationship, youknow, with, with God the Father got,
you know, God the father, youknow, he's the patriarch of us.
And I use that word, patriarch.
It's okay.
I don't mean like an abusive way.
Yeah.
You know, there's an order,you know, there's a hierarchy.

(17:53):
And it's, it's super importantthat men respect their earthly fathers.
Honor your father and mother,you know, your mother too, definitely
honor your father and bereconciled with him and don't hold
it against him, because youcan easily go down the path.
And I did in my 20s.
I went down the path of.
I was a victim.
I victimized myself.
I told myself a story, and Iwould not take responsibility for

(18:16):
myself.
And once you do, as a man,when you reconcile with your father,
when you forgive him, youstart to see your own faults.
And even if you went throughbad things in life, like, your father
wasn't here for you, he didn'tgive you this direction.
My actions, my choices arestill my fault.
I still did this.
I shouldn't have done this.
This was my mistake.
I have to start takingresponsibility for it.

(18:36):
And once you do it, it's likealmost then just like the light comes
on, then things start to get better.
And it's really important thatmen do not victimize themselves in
any way, shape, or form.
And the end goal should be,I'm going to respect my father.
And that includesreconciliation and forgiving him
for the, for, for the waysthat he's failed you or wasn't there

(18:57):
for you or, you know, offended you.
Honestly, I want to invite youto just keep going down this thread,
like, if you have more to sayon this, because this is, this is
so important.
It's so incredibly importantright now.
So please keep going.
I mean, naturally, I can ask alot of questions and facilitate conversation,
but I think that there's morehere to pull on.
So if you have more to say, Iinvite you to.
Yeah, I think men shouldalways be on the lookout.

(19:18):
Anything that any kind ofideology that tells you you're a
victim, just get, get rid of it.
It's not going to work.
And like, especially like, youknow, as you have, I've seen on Twitter.
Yep.
With wokeness even, you know,I don't want to use wokeness in the
right sense because somepeople don't like that now.
But, you know, just whatever.
Just for the sake of whatwe're talking about.
Yeah.
People want to blame peoplelike the Jews, you know, it's their

(19:40):
fault.
Or the boomers.
It's the boomers fault.
And it's.
It's a trap.
It's a total trap.
Just because there are peopleout there who are against you going
after you.
Dude, you can sit online inyour mom's basement on Twitter complaining,
or you can live in the realworld, get to work and work towards

(20:00):
a mission and hit the gym, hitthe Bible, serve your church, find
a wife, become a husband,become a father.
It's going to be a night andday difference versus just let me
just get on Twitter and try toratio this guy because there are
evil people out there tryingto attack me.
Yeah.
I just did a podcast with Mick Olson.
I think it was yesterday.

(20:21):
Oh, yeah.
And we talked about this, thesame issue.
And this is so relevant for meand everything that I've done since
starting my podcast in 2020.
I started out as a masculinitypodcast called the Renaissance of
Men, but I've been thinkingabout men's issues since 2001, so
almost 25 years.
And so, you know, travelingthrough the manosphere.
I've been to Elliot Hulse'shome in Florida and spent a couple,

(20:43):
three days with his familywhen I was working on my documentary.
Yeah.
So I know and have met allthese guys and particularly in the
manosphere.
And it's almost like all ofthese issues that I've been looking
into for a long time haveburst into the reform Christian Twitter
world.
Like, they just kicked downthe door and flooded in and no one
knows what to do with anything.

(21:05):
But it's literally likewatching the manosphere take over
the Christian Twitter with allthe manosphere's flaws.
And it's like appealing liesthat are concealed in.
That are concealed in littlebits of truth.
You know, it's exactly likewatching this is like, guys, wake
up.
This victimhood ideology.
You know, what I said?
What I said to Mick Olson, Idon't want to spoil too much of it

(21:26):
is like, okay, let's say youare a victim.
Right.
So for 30 days, we are goingto monitor every dollar you spend
and every 15 minutes of timeyou're going to log it.
Right.
And we're going to watch andwe're going to see at the end of
30 days, whether it's the Jewswho are holding you down or it's
your own bad decisions.
Y.
Right.
Yeah.
At least as.
At least as much.
And, you know, guys don't like that.

(21:49):
100.
Even with dating, you know,they can look at how the girls.
Because of culture.
Dating is horrible.
It's.
It's brutal out there.
It is.
I can.
Facts and, And.
And I experienced that myself too.
But one of the things I had todo, actually, even going back to
my younger 20s, I had to learnthe skill of dating.
I could have just.

(22:10):
Just, you know, complained andmore and just stay there in my complaint,
but I realized I had to takeresponsibility for myself.
Even if.
Even if things like, you know,this girl was this certain way and
she's, you know, didn't haveher heart.
Right.
Okay.
But there's still a reason whyshe rejected me.
And when you take a hunt, youknow, like, when you just commit
to I'm going to be responsiblefor everything, that's a game changer.

(22:30):
And that is a sign of true masculinity.
Yes.
You know, can you beresponsible because that, you know,
and this is the old path, likeso many people talk about.
Oh, you know, like the dissident.
Right.
This is just what everybodybelieved prior to the 19th century.
Well, he also tookresponsibility and told you that
you got to go out there andyou got to get it for yourself, and
nobody else is going to do itfor you.

(22:51):
And so that is crucial.
That will separate the menfrom the boys.
Can you be responsible for yourself?
Admitting, including when youfail, even if there are other obstacles,
like if somebody set up a trapfor you, I got to take responsibility
somehow with not anticipatingthat, you know, that trap, it's hard.
It's super hard.
One of the hardest things todo, even, you know, like, even when
I'm a preacher or being apreacher now, like when I go in that

(23:14):
pulpit and make a mistake, it sucks.
I beat myself up about it.
I was like, man, why did I sayit that way?
I should not have said it that way.
Or when I did debates in thepast, like, I should not have framed
it that way.
It sucks to admit it, butunfortunately, I just got to take
responsibility.
And next time when I get tothat, hopefully I don't make that
same mistake.
Because, you know, what elseam I going to do?
I'm just going to stay lockedaway, blaming everybody, blaming

(23:37):
my father, not beingreconciled, not trying to improve
myself.
You Tell me what's better.
It's definitely 100% better tobe this way.
Even if there are obstacles inyour life, take responsibility.
Learn to be strong so you canovercome those obstacles.
Because if not, you're goingto stay stuck.
Yeah.
This is a well documentedphenomenon called the victor victim

(23:58):
cycle, that if you believethat you are a victim, then there
is a victor who is over you.
So you will work to then, youknow, to then triumph over the victor,
and then they become thevictim and they do the same thing
to you.
And so it's around and aroundthe circle we go.
There's a new victor on topand a victim on the bottom, and then,
et cetera.
And it's like the way out ofthat trap.

(24:20):
And it is a trap.
It's a trap that the left hasbeen in, I don't know, for a long
time.
Let's say at least 15 years,if not more.
The way out of that isresponsibility and accountability.
That's it.
That is the way out to say,look, my life looks the way that
it does because of acombination of circumstances that
are out of my control andchoices that are within my control.

(24:40):
I cannot change my circumstances.
You can't change what decadeyou're born in, but you can change
your choices.
And as long as you're thinkingthat you have to change circumstances
to change your life, you'regoing to be a victim.
But as soon as you startsaying that, you know what, I can
control my choices, I'm goingto make better choices and take responsibility.
You exit from that wholecycle, then you lift up other men.

(25:00):
But that's, you know, that'snot as profitable as being like,
you know, follow my podcastand I'll tell you why you're a victim
this week.
It's manipulating them.
It is, is what it is.
You know, you know, like howmany movie characters are out there
where, where there's thisangry person, that villain comes
along and tries to manipulatetheir anger and, and, and their bitterness.
And a good analogy for this,speaking of Batman earlier, is the

(25:23):
movie, you know, the DarkKnight trilogy, or even Batman versus
Superman, you know, with BenAffleck, Batman, you know, was bitter.
And what happened with hisbitterness is he tried to kill Superman.
And the Bible warns aboutbeing bitter.
When you're bitter, once youdiscover that enemy, you feel justified
in how you go about trying toovercome that, even to the point

(25:45):
of trying to kill Superman.
So men have to watch out forbitterness, which is a huge thing.
Hebrews 13 warns about theroot of bitterness springing up and
troubling you and then causingnot just problems for you, but for
your church.
And that's what we're seeing alot with young men.
And there are wolves outthere, sadly, who are saying, oh,
there are disaffected young,poor white men.

(26:06):
And now let me give you anoutlet where you can take your anger
out.
That guy is like Ra's al Ghul.
He's telling Bruce Wayne, yougot to burn down Gotham City.
And we need to be like Batmanis saying, no, I'm going to stand
in the way, even if I'm theonly guy doing it, and not fall for
this contra munthem, which iswhat Athanasius did.
He stood against what, youknow, felt like the whole world,

(26:28):
saying, no, Jesus Christ is,is God.
I'm not going to, you know,going to capitulate.
Even if everybody over here issaying so, I'm still going to plant
my flag here.
But the problem is so fewpeople, so few men want to do that.
You know, we talk about beingstrong and masculine and it's easy
to say that, but at the end ofthe day, how many people really want
to live the life of what thesemen in the faith, like Athanasius,

(26:51):
like Martin Luther, you know,who would want to be Martin Luther?
You have the entire RomanCatholic world pointing its entire
arsenal against you.
And not just in thetheological realm, but even in the
political realm, because thatwas all connected, all coming down
on you.
How many people actually wantto be that person where everybody
thinks you're an idiot.
What are you doing?
You're heretical.

(27:13):
Nobody wants to imitate these men.
We love to read about them,love to talk about them, put them
in our profile pictures.
But at the end of the day,there it's few men.
Few men know the truth.
And even.
And even fewer men will standfor the truth, unfortunately.
That's right.
And just to be clear aboutsomething, just because you're standing
against the world doesn't meanthat you're right.
It's not a one to one thing.

(27:34):
You could stand against theworld and say the sky is yellow.
It's like, ah, you're all wrong.
It's like, no, that we can just.
That's a good point.
Yeah, so.
But the trick is to find whatis true and right and to work to
falsify it within yourselfbefore you're going to take a stand
against the world.
Really find out withinyourself with a sincere, open minded
approach to say, okay, I'mgoing to try and falsify my own beliefs

(27:56):
as if Someone else would try.
And then if you find that youcan't falsify your own beliefs with
this honest and sincereattempt, then you stand against the
world.
If it's a moral enough issue,an important enough moral issue to
do that.
So just don't just standagainst the world for the sake of
it, to prove yourself right.
Like actually try to proveyourself right or try to prove yourself
wrong.
And that's what I see a lot ofmen just don't do.

(28:18):
They look at the post warconsensus and they say the post war
consensus is a lie.
So the first person to comealong and give you something else
as the truth, did you ask themany questions?
Oh, you just don't understand.
Like, wait, what?
Like just try to falsify yourown beliefs before you go on this
crusade.
But it's again, it's thatbitterness, it's that resentment,

(28:38):
it's that victimhood ideologythat gets itself wrapped around men's
hearts and men get manipulatedand used this way.
It's so sad.
It is so sad to watch.
I'm learning too recently, menhave to watch out for overcorrecting.
Yes, I've seen that in my lifetoo, where I overcorrected.

(28:59):
And you can go from being inthat woke evangelical, like Acts
29 is a great example.
Acts 29 was, you know, I don'tknow if you were around that time
or if you remember, you know,what happened.
I know kind of what it is sortof church planting network for sort
of, for sort of moreconservative churches.

(29:19):
But that ended up kind ofgoing woke and soft in its own way.
Do I have that right?
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Like wokeness was in it fromthe start because I actually went
to 2 Acts 29 churches in New Jersey.
I had to leave both of thembecause of wokeness.
And, you know, one of thepastors ended up telling me that
basically, you know, thischurch isn't for me and I should
just find another church.
So.
Which is what I did.

(29:39):
Thanks, bro.
Wow.
Yeah, actually it was during2020, during George Floyd.
And he.
I forget what he told me, buthe essentially told me just kind
of like, buzz off, you know,this is what our church does.
And so whatever, Buzz off.
This is what our church does.
Basically what he told mebecause he wouldn't meet with me
in person.
He didn't want to meet with mein person.
So I said I felt weird goingto a church where the pastor doesn't

(30:01):
want to meet with me.
So I just left, you know,didn't want to talk about and work
through these issues of wokeness.
But you know, my point was, isthat you can go from like that woke
evangelical leftism to sayinglike, you know, I have to be missional.
Like there was one guy onTwitter that made a good analogy
of this.
I forget his name, but he was,he is acts or x Acts 29.

(30:22):
And he talked about how thisis men in this, you know, urban ministry
in the city, ordering his $11chai latte, trying to reach a he,
they, them, you know, baristaand just waiting for the right opportunity
to talk to him about Jesus,pursuing him through friendship evangelism.
And his wife was working andhe's going to be that servant leader

(30:42):
and he's going to cook becausehis wife has to stay late because
her boss is saying, hey, canyou stay late and work.
The analogy is this is all wrong.
You don't have to move to thecity, do urban ministry and try to
spend $11 on coffee just soyou can have that one little small
moment of telling they themperson, hey bro, Jesus loves you.
You can go from that, realizesthat's wrong.

(31:05):
I shouldn't live like that.
I don't have to be this ooeygooey Mr.
Nice Guy.
Jesus is my homeboy.
Let's pursue social just justice.
You can go from that and say,okay, this is wrong.
But let me go over here nowand say Jews are the problem.
Feminism is a problem.
I need to preserve my Anglowhite skin.
We're the best white boy Summer.

(31:26):
Both of those versions are farfrom scriptural Christianity.
Neither of those versions arescriptural Christianity.
And men have to watch out forthe trap of overcorrecting.
We have to pursue Jesus iswhat it is.
And people will mock me for that.
Let's call it Jesus juke.
But what else should I do?
It's like Peter told Christ,where else are we going to go?

(31:47):
You have the words of eternal life.
What in the world other thangoing all in for Jesus in this life?
What else am I going to do?
That's the best place to be.
And it goes to show you thatpeople are still mocking you to this
day for following Christ whenyou talk about the gospel, say we
need to preach the gospel,teach the gospel, not lose it.
You know, this is what thegospel is.

(32:08):
I'm going to die for it.
People to this day will stillmock you for doing that.
Call it Jesus juke.
You're being a biblicist.
You're trying to be a thirdway liberal.
Still, you're just being a gatekeeper.
And it's like, okay, cool, bro.
You can say that, but he hasthe words of eternal life.
There it is.
I'm going to follow him, andI'm not going to go from one extreme

(32:29):
to another just because I wantto be based according to your definition.
And then keep up with my penance.
Keep on trying to post thingson Twitter, keep on trying to be
this guy who ratios peoplejust so I can be approved.
Because those people don'tlove you.
Those people don't care for you.
And the moment you fall out ofline, they'll just as quickly as
they turned on men like OwenStrand, they're going to turn on

(32:49):
you and just try to eat youand give you to the lions for dinner.
I cannot tell you how correctyou are, because I discovered that
before I came into the reformworld, I was in the manosphere.
And so the manosphere is, youknow, always, again, against feminism
and against a lot ofliberalism and about strong and confident

(33:11):
men.
But as I got further into thatworld, I saw that obviously it has
its own serious problems with degeneracy.
It has its own problems withego and arrogance and.
And, you know, prior priority,like a misprioritization of certain
values in the family.
And, you know, I was preparedwhen I was creating content, I was
prepared to be bullied by feminists.

(33:31):
I was prepared for that.
But as I went into themanosphere and was like, hey, guys,
this is.
This is obviously not okay.
I was not prepared for the.
For the bullying from men.
Not that it, like, botheredme, but, like, whoa, guys, like,
I'm just trying to say thatthere's, like, a moral standard here.
Like, this is not good.
And the blowback that I gotfor that was.
Was terrible.
It was.

(33:52):
It was legit terrible.
And then I got kicked out ofthe manosphere, which was one of
the best things to ever happento me.
But, you know, but the dynamicthat you describ.
Absolutely correct.
Like, okay, you can easilyovercorrect and leap into the other
ditch.
And then when you try andcrawl out of that ditch, it becomes
a real crab pot kind ofmentality with the bullying and the
shaming and, you know, thesort of the.
The collectivist kind of ideology.

(34:13):
No, we all think the same.
And you know, what's reallysad about it is I think of the movie
Fight Club now.
You know, Fight Club iswritten by Chuck Palahniak.
Chuck Palahniak is in a.
Is an avowed homosexual.
And there's all kinds ofovertones in the book.
Book, you know, which we.
We don't have to get into.
But it does describe somethingaccurate, which is that communities
of men that are not driven bya higher ethic do become toxic and

(34:36):
destructive.
And that's what that book is about.
It's all these men that arekind of embedded in the everyday
working world.
And then they discover truemasculinity through this fight club
thing.
And they find out who they areas men.
And it's like.
And at first it's a bigblessing for them, but because they're
unguided by a higherprinciple, it's just Nietzschean
power.
The whole thing turns toxicand destructive and the men become
antisocial psychopaths.

(34:57):
And that's the thing thatChrist is supposed to.
That's the commentary that hewas trying to do.
And that's the thing thatChrist is supposed to fix is like,
whoa, hold on, wait, let'ssnap out of this, guys.
There is still an objective,higher standard.
The same one that led us outof the left ditch should also be
used to draw us out of theright ditch.
But the problem is now youhave pastors that are in the right

(35:17):
ditch as well.
And so men have the.
They have the approval oftheir conscience.
Like, oh, well, a pastor said it.
Well, what's his authority?
And that's the part that's,that's the part, I think, that is
so unique in many ways.
So one of the things that Ialso have become aware of as well

(35:37):
is that one of the things thatyou know, exactly to your point that
you know, like that manosphereworld, they.
They tell men, like, you haveto be your own, essentially Alexander
the Great and Julius Caesar.
Yes.
You have to just aspire to areally big mission in life so you
can get your.
The stars, and that's theirown version of salvation.
They're trying to reach theheavens by living a life worthy,

(36:00):
by leaving a lasting legacy.
And when you look at thegospel, you don't have to do that.
You can rest.
You might hear my daughter inthe background crying, by the way.
But one of the things that thegospel calls you to, pretty clear,
pretty explicit, is to pick upyour cross.
And that's a sign of death.
The point of the gospel is notto make a name for yourself.

(36:22):
The point of the gospel isJesus Christ is the hero and the
victor.
Now die to yourself, get onthe cross with him.
Paul says, I've been crucifiedto Christ.
It's not I who live, but Jesuswho lives in me.
That's the gospel right there.
And it's not about Let me justgo out and build a name for myself
and a legacy.
We like to talk about thatverse, John 3:30, where John the
Baptist says, he must increaseand I must decrease.

(36:43):
But again, going back to thesame thing, how many of us want to
live it?
Do we really want to live for ourselves?
So I can make a name for myself?
Because you can do that, evenas a pastor, even as a Christian,
you can think, okay, I'll dothese things so I can put my name
in the stars.
And that's a trap.
It's like, let your namedissipate, and who cares about it?

(37:04):
Great John the Baptist Jesussays, nobody was born greater than
him among the sons of men.
But yet he says, let medecrease and him increase.
Paul the Apostle Paul, let mebe crucified.
Or I was.
I have been crucified with Christ.
He's not there anymore.
He says, well, who lives inyou, Paul?
Jesus.

(37:24):
It's his victory.
And that's totally like.
You can't reconcile that withthe Andrew Tate theology, with the
red pill theology.
Those guys are trying to makea name for themselves.
Jesus would look at AndrewTate and say, andrew, die.
Sell everything you have.
Sell your clout, your followers.
Die.
Die to yourself.

(37:45):
And if you can't, then youcan't be my disciple.
So men like Andrew Tate havetwo choices.
Either I die to myself, or Ilive in this life for my name and
then lose my soul.
And Jesus says, what's theprofit of that?
So you can do that, but it'snot going to be following Jesus.
And following Jesus means you die.

(38:07):
That's what that means.
The cross.
It's not just this nice symbol.
It was a bad symbol.
It was the Roman governmentsaying, this man is an enemy of the
state.
Everybody can know it.
We're going to shame him.
We're going to mock you.
And it's funny, because todayI saw a tweet by a pastor saying,
we need to get back to mocking people.
I saw that one, too.
The cross was the ultimatemockery, the ultimate shame.

(38:28):
And Jesus says, pick up the cross.
Be mocked, be ridiculed, be shamed.
But nobody wants that.
Christianity, nobody wants that.
But again, the cross is asymbol of death.
And if you don't do it, youcan't be his disciple.
And it's not vainglory.
Let's go on a crusade.
Let's go on a mission.
Let's get a name for ourselves.
Let's be Christiannationalists and take this country

(38:50):
back for Jesus.

(42:36):
You can have the right motivesof that, but you can also.
And men should watch out forthe wrong motives of that, because
if it's in it for yourself,you can use Christianity as a guide
for yourself.
You can have a form ofgodliness, but deny its power.
And the true power is when mendie to themselves.
That takes a supernatural workof God.
And you can't buy that.
You can't get that on a podcast.

(42:57):
You can't get that on Twitterwith people retreating.
You.
You can go on Joe Rogan's podcast.
You can do all these great things.
And if you're not dead toChrist, and if men aren't dying to
Christ, then what power is there?
Well, there's no power.
That's not Christianity.
Christianity is that men whoyou don't know.

(43:18):
He's all by himself.
Paul says, leave a quiet life.
He's not on Twitter, he's noton X, he's not on Facebook.
He doesn't have tons of followers.
But he's faithful to Jesus andGod is pleased with that man.
And I think on Judgment Day,we're going to be shocked.
I think on Judgment Day,there's going to be people who are
getting far better rewards andnobody has heard of them.

(43:40):
That's right.
Nobody's going to know.
Who in the world are these people?
Who is this guy?
I didn't know about him.
We'll be expecting.
It's this pastor over therewho has 100,000 subs.
It's this man over there whohas 50,000 likes.
That guy's going to get rewarded.
And I think we're in for onebig awakening on Judgment Day.
I think you're absolutely right.

(44:01):
And just a couple quick thingsabout that you can also see in the
notion of dying to self.
Even that idea can also betwisted and perverted into servant
leadership and leftism and all that.
So these ideas.
Satan is very good at takingthese ideas and lacing poison into
them that drive men eitherinto the ditch of arrogance or drive

(44:25):
men into the ditch of humiliation.
And in some sense, they'rekind of the same ditch.
You know, like a man who isarrogant will ultimately be humiliated.
Right?
And a man who allows himselfto be humiliated will eventually
snap out of it and become arrogant.
They're very much the same ditch.
But simple, humble obedienceand faithfulness, even if it doesn't

(44:46):
build a great name, isultimately the way to have peace
with God.
That doesn't mean that Godmight not just bestow a great name
on you.
He may do that.
That.
But if he does that, it's forhis glory, not Yours.
And so this is thesemanosphere ideas, you have these
Nietzschean manosphere ideasthat are kind of trying to wrap themselves
in Christian language veryskillfully in many cases.

(45:08):
But the heart of it is wicked.
The heart of it is very wicked.
And you might not be able tospot it, but you can kind of feel
it.
And that's something thatJames Lindsay said in one of his
Secret Religions of the westtalks is when the Gnostic parasite
infects your community, ituses your language so you can't spot
it, but you can spot it insomeone else's community because

(45:28):
you're not part of it.
And so that's kind of what Ithink is going on here, where you
have this Nietzschean kind ofview this man as will to power.
And then you wrap that inChristian language and it sounds
really appealing todisaffected, whatever, young men.
But that's not the gospel.
That's absolutely not the gospel.
But men want power, they wantauthority, they want vengeance and

(45:50):
vindication and retributionand they slide right off, they slide
right off the path ofrighteousness and then it becomes
self righteousness.
And when you say these things,sadly you get called a simp.
That's right.
You get called weak liberal cuck.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's easier for me likewhen leftists call me a Nazi and

(46:10):
a fascist, like, whatever, youknow, but it's, but it's hard for
men who were in that, thatconservative world too to be, to
endure the mockery of themsaying you're a liberal, to endure
the mockery of saying, youknow, you know, to your point, you're
a cuck.
But it's like, well again,like this is, you know, this is just

(46:32):
basic Christianity andChristianity really is basic.
Like, like I'm going to bepreaching on Ephesians 6, this, this,
this Sunday on putting on thearmor of God.
And Paul's just mentioning thebasic stuff, stuff, truth, righteousness,
your feet showed with thepreparation of gospel of peace, the
word or the sword, which isthe word of God, prayer and supplication.

(46:55):
That's just basic stuff.
But that's the weapons of our warfare.
It's not these new fads.
And the problem is, it's like,how many times are we going to fall
for.
There's this new movement.
This is the thing that's goingto get everybody.
This is the base thing.
This is what it means now tofollow Christ.
How many times are we going torepeat this?
Like, you know, I'm only 34,but I know enough now to realize

(47:18):
that man, next time a new fadcomes out, you know, just reject
it.
It's not going to work.
It's just a Repeat of Acts 29,just a repeat of social justice.
It's just a repeat of, youknow, things like, not all Christian
nationalists are like this,but it is a repeat of many Christian
nationalist movement and theCrusades movement.
It's just them trying to do it.

(47:40):
And the reality is, you know,these pastors are not here long.
Like, I've been realizing thistoo, because I'm going through also
in my own studies, the Second Chronicles.
And you just see this king came.
He just, you know, he didn'tfollow God with his whole heart.
Next came, King came, hefollowed God not perfectly.
Then he was gone.

(48:00):
And then repeat and repeat.
And it's so easy to lose trackof these kings and what they did.
Some of them are good, some ofthem are not so good, but they still
did good things.
But all these men are just inthe annals of time and lost to us
where we don't even remember them.
200 years from now.
How many people are going toremember the names of many of these
pastors that we see online whoare just pushing or you and me?

(48:22):
Yeah, honestly, they're not.
And it's a vapor, and whatvalue is it?
And I look forward to the dayof when we're all in heaven one day
and hopefully we can reconcilewith a lot of these people and realize,
man, what a waste of time.
What vanity did we just waste?
That's right.
That's right.
Just trying to pursuesomething new.

(48:43):
We should have just stuck tothe basics, which is what the Bible
consistently, over and overagain, pushes on us.
First scripture reading, wemake war with the word of God.
That's how we do it.
It's not these new movementsand fads.
Yeah, I mean, I think aboutJay Gresham Machen, Christianity
and liberalism.
I think it's in the secondhalf of that book, maybe towards
the end, where he says that aconservative social gospel is not

(49:06):
better than a liberal socialgospel gospel.
He actually says that, as Irecall, in that book.
And so for a long time inevangelicalism, it seems to me there's
been a liberal social gospel.
And now with Trump winning thepresidency, now there's a snapback
happening to try and impose aconservative social gospel.
But that's not what the gospel is.
The gospel is not a social project.

(49:27):
It's not a trend.
And that's one of the thingsI'm seeing from influencers outside
the Christian space that arebecoming Christian, like, oh, maybe
Christianity can fix ourbroken world.
Yes, that may be true.
But Christianity, the gospelis supposed to fix you first.
It's like maybe if everyonestarted going back to church.
Great idea.
How about you?
Oh, well.
But not me.
Oh, really interesting, right?

(49:48):
And that's the odd thing isthere's this trendiness to Christianity
as well that's happening thatmakes it seem like this sort of more
masculine version of it isachieving popularity, but it's still
a distortion.
Guys, wake up.
I think the next things thatwe're going to battle as Christians
is nominal Christianity andfascism in the church.

(50:10):
And I don't mean fascism asthe left uses it.
You vote for Trump.
Because I'm a third time Trump voter.
I got my Trump photo rightover here.
You can't see it, but it'swhen Trump was shot, he was saying,
fight, fight, fight.
So I love Trump.
So I'm not using fascism inthe left sense.
I mean, like actual realfascism is coming, like Protestant
Francois.
I think that's going to be onthe rise.

(50:30):
And again, nominal Christianity.
But there might be some goodthat comes with it, because when
you look at the GreatAwakening, the backdrop to that was
nominal Christianity.
Everybody just pretty muchwent to church.
Everybody was pretty much justbaptized as a kid.
They still did communion, theystill did confirmation, but there
was a deadness to them.
And so the message of theGreat Awakening, like John and Charles

(50:54):
Wesley, George Whitfield,Jonathan Edwards, it was simple.
And that's why I said themessage is simple.
It was the new birth, youknow, regeneration, holiness, you
know, the gospel, dying to yourself.
This is what it means to be atrue Christian.
Everybody needs to come to Christ.
You can have a real assuranceof salvation.
That was a message andrevival, you know, that was the message

(51:14):
and that was the thing thatGod used.
Like, again, we look at theGreat Awakening, but nobody wants
to imitate them.
That was what they were pushing.
It wasn't, let's take over,you know, I'll be Christian nationalists
and all just be based andjust, you know, go on a crusade and,
you know, it's all Israel's fault.
Let's all get them.
No, it was the gospel.
And the problem is that peoplesay they believe it, but they don't

(51:35):
really believe it or they actlike that.
The gospel stops short ofsalvation, which is a form of.
It's almost similar toGnosticism in a certain way where
the gospel can just save meand that's it, nothing else.
And now let's get to the real meat.
Let's get to natural law.
Don't be a biblicist.
Don't be a Jesus Jew person.

(51:56):
Don't be a liberal, don't be a gatekeeper.
Nobody actually just wants tofollow that.
But again, this is what Godused in time and the Great Awakening.
And I think nominalChristianity is on the rise.
Like Russell Brand, right?
He's a Christian, but is hereally a Christian with what he's
saying?
Oh, my goodness.
I get in so much trouble whenI'm like, I'm not so sure about that
guy.

(52:16):
Just give him time.
He's a new believer.
We're all so innocent once.
Like, bro, he has 12 millionfollowers on one platform alone.
Can someone please hold thisman accountable to what he's saying?
Just anybody, Back off.
Don't hurt his feelings.
He's a big boy.
He's a multi millionaire.
He's a superstar.

(52:36):
He can handle a few words ofrebuke and chastisement.
He'll be okay.
And people just don't.
They don't want to hear that.
I don't understand it.
Or it's like, Joe Rogan isgoing to church now, which I do think
is great.
Yeah, of course.
But I'm also realizing, too,is like, these people might get a
little freaked out as we don'tknow what kind of church he's going
to.
What if it's a Roman Catholic church?

(52:57):
Yeah, same with Russell Brand.
Does he even go to church?
Oh, he doesn't go to church.
Oh.
I mean, I don't know.
If you ask me, I think he'sstarting his own church.
He's baptizing people.
He was baptizing people in theocean last week, and then he's leading
a Jesus prayer this pastweekend in, like, literally cult
leader sunglasses.
Like, literally Jim Jones sunglasses.

(53:18):
I'm not even making that up.
Wearing a shirt withastrological symbols on it and baptizing
people with a Jesus king flag.
And it's like, guys, issomeone gonna say something about
this anybod?
Or it's like when they sayChrist is king followed by swear
word.

(53:39):
And then we call it out.
We call it out.
Are you kidding me?
You're trying to say that wecan't say Christ is king?
It's like, dude, do youseriously think that's my problem?
Right?
When God says, don't blasphememy name, do you think God was saying,
don't mention my name, don'tsay my name, or was he concerned
with these people?
Christ is king.
You dirty insert thisderogatory term.

(54:00):
You dirty J O, O.
Which is what they say.
Yeah, it's like a rapper name,the dirty Joo.
I don't want to say and get introuble because it is a bad word.
You shouldn't be saying thatto somebody.
That's right.
That's right.
And you can feel the intention.
And that's the part that isjust maddening sometimes is the retreat

(54:24):
into pietism.
Like, oh, look, I just foundthis one scripture verse that I took
out of context that says, thisis okay, or you're a slanderer or
stuff like that, as, oh, thankyou for adopting the most pious posture.
Like, oh, you know, it's like,give me a break.
You know, and it's reallywanting to have things both ways
and that.
And that's what it is.
And unfortunately, we cannever have things both ways.

(54:47):
We just can't.
Eventually, every man isforced, and we've been talking sort
of in a larger theme about ourgrowth as a man.
Every man will be forced tochoose between one of two paths.
The Christian path goes this way.
Paul is explicit about thefruits of the spirit.
Right.
And that's what it looks like.
There's no funny exegesis youcan do about that.
This is what Christians arecalled to look like, and this is

(55:10):
who we're called to be.
And that sets us away from the world.
And so you can have this,which is the Christian call, or you
can have what you're doing,and you'll be forced to at some point
say, okay, you know what?
I don't need those sillyfruits of the spirit thing.
I want power.
It's like, well, go have that.
By all means, go have that.
Just don't call it Christian.
And that's sort of where we'reat as that process is unfolding right

(55:30):
now.
It's just so antithetical tothe Scriptures.
Like, there's no way you canread through the New Testament and
just get, you know, like,imagine if we wanted to say, okay,
let's just do a scientificinquiry and let's just form a hypothesis.
The Apostle Paul was aChristian nationalist.
We would predict him to besaying certain things like, let's

(55:52):
take over Rome.
Let's play the long game.
Let's get married and have 10 kids.
That will do it.
Bada big bada boom.
Let's start mocking andshaming people.
But then you read the New Testament.
Oh, love your enemies.
Oh, forgive those.
Oh, vengeance is God.
Oh, submit to Romans 13.
Submit to your government.

(56:12):
I'm not saying there's not aroom for civil Disobedience there
is, but if they're telling youto go 75 miles an hour, don't go
85 miles an hour.
You don't have to play thelong game to be a Christian nationalist.
You just don't find it.
And then people try toredefine these things.
Like, oh, there's this public.
This weird distinction betweenthere's this public enemy and then

(56:33):
there's a different kind of enemy.
And I can hate this guy overhere and this guy I can't really
hate.
It's like, dude, just realize,come on, dude.
Trying to point them and getthem to look at the Scriptures.
Open up your eyes.
It's like that meme, trying toget somebody to look at the scriptures.
Here it is.
Love your enemies.
God loves his enemies.
God makes his rain shine on them.
God is merciful.

(56:56):
What more proof do we need?
When Jesus says, you shall bemerciful as your father in heaven
is merciful.
And he says that God makes thesun shine on the unrighteous too,
and gives them rain, just ashe does to his people.
And Jesus saying, be like that.
Be like your heavenly father.
Matthew 5, 6, and 7, theSermon on the mouth.
If you live that out, it'stotally not.

(57:17):
Not this manosphere red pilltheology, overcorrection, dissonant
Reich theology that's going onright now.
And men need to completely getit out of.
If it's in their system, getit out of your system.
It's in your church.
Get it out of your church.
It cannot be allowed to havean inch because it's a poison and
you're going to be bitter.

(57:37):
It's the same as the poison of feminism.
There were consequences.
There will be consequences.
There are consequences forconfronting feminism inside churches.
Pick any one of a number ofdifferent doctrines.
Just read Ephesians 5.
Just read the whole thing, youknow, from.
From the pulpit, or pick anynumber of passages and.
And see what happens, youknow, and all things.

(57:58):
You mean all things.
And you'll see it start tocome up.
And so I think pastors failedto confront that for many generations,
it seems to me.
And now there's a response toit, which is like the masculine version
of feminism, sort of.
Chauvinism is probably a goodword for it.
And so there will also beconsequences and a totally different
set of churches forconfronting that.

(58:20):
And the reality is you justgotta do it.
You just gotta do it, becausethese ideologies, they spread virally.
Hey, man, did you know thatsuch and such a thing is true?
Or, hey, girlfriend, did youknow such and such a thing is true?
And the root of bitterness,this is what I think it means.
The root of bitterness springsup and defiles many because bitterness
doesn't just stay in its own lane.
It brings other people intothe project and you gotta cut it.

(58:44):
We gotta rip it out of yourown heart.
You gotta rip it out of theheart of men and women in your congregations.
And they have to help eachother doing that because if you don't,
your entire congregation isgoing to be choked with weeds.
And that's what we're watchingin real time in front of us.
Oh, I know, it's a shame.
Like, you know, I look at someof these churches, I'm like, man,
what in the world is going onbehind closed doors?
Because if this is what theyput out there in the public, which

(59:05):
is your best behavior, whatdoes it really look like to be in
that church?
And you know, a lot of theseare very cult like churches, unfortunately.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Oh, cults of personality.
Like the cult of personality.
I saw that inside themanosphere like you have, the cult
of personality is based aroundthe person of a bully.

(59:25):
The bully has their inner ringthat's around them.
And everyone on the outside istrying to get into the inner ring
to get closest to the bully,to get attention or favors or contribute
to the mission or whatever.
And it becomes about the individual.
It does not become about Christ.
It becomes about worshipingthe the man who's standing in that
position.
That is exactly how themanosphere worked.

(59:47):
You had all these little cultsof personality that could be quite
profitable for the men whowere, who were leading them.
And then what happened in 2022is Andrew Tate came along and I called
him the apex predator of the manosphere.
I've said this many times.
And he was the guy who did allthe things that all these other cults
of personality, these guystalked about.
He was a billionaire or maybea multi hundred millionaire.

(01:00:07):
You know, he was really fitand had actually like done fights
and you know, for better orworse, didn't have seemed to have
problems with women.
So he was the guy everythingthe manosphere talked about.
And he made hundreds ofmillions of dollars.
Like his war room is.
You can look up how much moneyit made at the peak in 2023.
And the thing is that guys arelooking at Andrew Tate as a model
to follow.
How can I start my own littlecult of personality like he did?

(01:00:29):
Because he's leading so manymen and making so much money and
it's like no he's not a modelto follow for anything.
Well, he said some good things.
No, he doesn't.
It's interesting.
It's baffling to watch becausemen blind themselves like, well,
he says some good things whileturning a blind eye to exactly who

(01:00:50):
he is.
I just Preached throughEphesians 6:1:9 and I titled that
sermon Rules for Slaves and Tyrants.
And what I realize is that theBible has check marks in place like
these safeguards to keeptyrants from abusing their power.
And I define tyrants asanybody who has authority, not like
an actual tyrant.

(01:01:10):
You know, it's like theAmerican Constitution.
It's purposely set up to avoidthe abuse of power.
It's to give it to the we the people.
We have the First Amendment,freedom of speech.
The Second Amendment is thereto keep that in check in case anybody
turns, you know, tyrannical.
And Ephesians is set up like that.
It says, wives, submit to your husbands.
The next verse, husbands, loveyour wives.

(01:01:32):
That's the check mark.
You go in Ephesians 6, itsays, Children, obey your parents.
In the Lord.
You go to verse four.
Fathers, don't provoke them to wrath.
That's the safeguard.
He has the authority.
You're under the authority.
Here's your job.
If you're under the authority,obey, submit those in authority,
don't abuse it.
Then you go into the slaves.
It tells the slaves to obeyyour masters, and then it tells the

(01:01:54):
masters, warns them, says, dothe same things in terms of doing
it all for God and glorifyinghim, knowing that their Master is
in heaven and there's no partiality.
And so Paul is saying that Godis going to reward you and hold you
to the same standard, whetheryou're a slave or free, and is purposely
set up to keep thesesafeguards in place because men will

(01:02:16):
abuse power.
It's like the people who say,well, you know, there's nothing wrong
with power.
Well, that's true, but there'scheck marks in place because you
are prone to the temptation ofbeing abusive.
It's like that.
You know that red dresscontroversy that happened a little
while back where men, youknow, Ephesians 5, again, wife, submit
to your husbands in everyeverything, not in some things.

(01:02:37):
And everything.
Well, that means that I cantell my wife to wear a red dress
for 30 days in a row.
Dude, you're abusing your power.
Why in the world would youwant to tell your wife to wear a
red dress 30 days in a row?
Dude, come on.
There's check marks in placeand it's not unlimited power.
And the Bible has these signsup just like any other sign, like,

(01:02:57):
don't pee in the pool.
There are signs like thatbecause people pee in the pool.
There are signs to love yourwife and for masters not to abuse
their slaves and fathers notto abuse their children.
Because, you know, thesethings actually happen.
And it's not woke.
It's not liberal, it's notgatekeeping and just trying to be
a libertarian to try to, youknow, push these things.

(01:03:17):
It's just.
It's just being a Christian.
That's what it is.
It's just rejecting falseideologies, no matter how good they
sound.
Even if you put it in the formof being based.
I want to be based, dude.
It's like, you know, you canbe based, but not, you know, like
I said yesterday on Twitter, Idon't know if you saw it.
You can be based, but notbased in Christ.
And that's another way to saythat's Christless, you know, Conservatism.

(01:03:39):
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
No, please, go ahead.
Oh, yeah, I was gonna say it's just.
It's, you know, it's justwithout a foundation of being in
Christ and those people, youguarantee it on the day of Judgment,
we're also going to have thosepeople saying Jesus similar, if not
exactly.
But I was base, right?
Yeah, but I was in a part ofthe crusade.
I was a Christian nationalist.

(01:03:59):
I wasn't liberal role.
I wasn't woke.
I was fighting for one ofthese, you know, these camps and
these teams.
I was, I was the one, youknow, ratioing, you know, this person
and Jesus say, I never knew you.
Exactly.
That's exactly what I wasthinking, is that.
Did we not cast out demons inyour name?
Did we not do all these thingsdepart from me?
I never knew you.
Like, sure, you could havedone all these things in my name,
but I.

(01:04:19):
But I wasn't in your heart.
We didn't have a relationship.
You know, you can do things inmy name, but that doesn't mean I
know who you are.
Yeah, and.
And that's.
That's so much what I think isgoing on.
The red dress example is agreat one.
Like, okay, yeah, as a thoughtexperiment, sure.
You could tell your wife towear a red dress for 30 days in a
row.
And technically speaking,yeah, I suppose she does have to

(01:04:40):
submit to you, but as ifthat's all there is to your relationship
with your wife.
As if there isn't a thingcalled relational equity.
This idea of give and Take.
And so, yeah, if you want tomake a massive withdrawal from your
relational bank account withyour wife to demand that she wear
a red dress every day for 30days and she doesn't do it, go ahead
and do that and see where thatgets you.

(01:05:00):
See where that gets your.
See where that gets yourintimate relationship with your wife.
See where that gets heroverall happiness.
See where that gets you interms of her respect for you when
you abuse that authority.
And so you're absolutely rightto say the Bible is full of checks
on human authority because noman has an absolute authority.
That's the point of scripture.
One guy, just one guy, is theabsolute authority, and it ain't

(01:05:23):
you.
And to see men distortingthese things to make sort of lame
political points, lame rightwing, extreme right wing political
points, is like, what are youguys doing?
You have the most preciousgift in human history, the blood
of Christ, and instead you'reusing it to legitimize your own sins.
And we get called names forsaying things like that.

(01:05:43):
Well, bring on the names.
Yeah.
You really do have to endurebeing called a liberal.
Not to everybody, but to this camp.
The cost of following Jesusnow is you have to endure being called
a gatekeeper or a liberal.
It's like, whatever, dude.
And it's like, you know, theythink it's such a win win if you
get ratioed online, but it'stoo, you know, it's like, who cares?
And that's.
And that's another thing Ialso been.

(01:06:04):
Been thinking of too.
It's almost like maybe we haveto think about online as that person
that.
That dude who just plays videogames all day long where it's not
the best, it's not productive.
He needs to go out there andbe on his, you know, quote unquote
mission.
And I'm not saying get rid ofsocial media because that's also

(01:06:26):
an overcorrection too, becauseit is a public square.
It is how we reach people.
But it can get to the point where.
And even video games, it'sokay to play video games, I think,
but it's like, if you'realways doing that, it gets to the
point where it's too much.
And how much are we spendingtime doing the basics of Christianity
to the people in front of us?
You might be known on Twitter,but your cousin probably doesn't

(01:06:48):
know a thing about yourprofile on Twitter or your podcast
past and what you do.
And why is that?
Because there's a disconnectwith my online Persona or, you know,
world with my in life world,and I think a great way, too.
And this is something that I'mtrying to get back to, evangelizing
in person.
Yeah.
Realizing, you know, goingfrom the online world to a small

(01:07:11):
church.
You know, we have a smallchurch, we have about consistently
like 17 people coming,sometimes 20, 22, but consistently
17.
It's humbling.
And it made me realize, man,how much time have I spent trying
to reach my local area of NewJersey and just trying to spread
the gospel and reach people?
And one of the ways that Ithink is helpful for that is spending

(01:07:33):
less time on Twitter, onpodcasts, especially as a pastor.
The number one thing has to bein front of me and just even at times,
too, being okay, not having toshow everything I do.
If you go evangelizing, youdon't have to show it.
Just evangelize, preach.
It doesn't have to get clicksand blow up on YouTube for it to

(01:07:54):
be glorifying to God.
How many people in the past.
What we're experiencing todayis a phenomenon in history.
The Methodist, the Great Awakening.
They didn't have podcasts,they didn't have YouTube, they didn't
have social media accounts,but they reached more people and
brought more people to Christ.
And many of them are going tohave more rewards.
How is that that.

(01:08:15):
How is it that the guy onTwitter has 30,000 followers and
his tweet goes viral?
How is it that people likeGeorge Whitefield on the Day of Judgment
probably are going to be morerewarded than him, more rewarded
than me on this one video thatgot blown up and people know my name,
and I did some debates and Ihad a good short that just got really
good feedback and clicks.

(01:08:36):
Am I not going to be rewardedfor my engagement in heaven?
Well, you know, the point isthat they reach more people than
us.
And it's humbling to thinkabout is that they just, you know,
they were on horseback goingdown to town getting, you know, stoned
and mocked and ridiculed andsaid, you can't come to our church
and preach because you're afanatic out in the field preaching.

(01:08:58):
It's humbling.
And look at us like, you know,what are we doing?
We're just so.
Let me just respond to this person.
Let me just do that.
And I'm not saying this is bad.
And, you know, because again,that's an overcorrection to get rid
of it.
But there has to be the focuswhere we can't lose basic, simple,
primitive, to use the word ofJohn Wesley, primitive Christianity,
the basics, bare minimum,which is the fundamentals.

(01:09:20):
And fundamentals is anotherway to say basic, basic Christianity,
because that's what it meansto be a Christian.
And this is what Christians do.
And it's not these new thingsthat we can add on to it.
So talk a little bit aboutLeonard Ravenhill, because you're
one of the few men that I'veheard that knows his name, and you've
sent me and recommended anumber of his sermons.
I think he was a 20th centurypreacher, but it seems like a lot

(01:09:41):
of his work.
I hear people mention FrancisSchaefer and guys like that quite
often.
But Leonard Ravenhill's nameis one that I don't hear very often.
So sort of speak about him sometimes.
I don't want to listen to himbecause I know I'm going to get convicted.
I kid you not, every sermonthat I've heard from him, he always
beats people me up.

(01:10:02):
And that's a good thing.
You know, sometimes if youdon't want to go to the light, you
know, you got to go, you know,go to the light.
So he is a.
Yeah, 20th century.
He died.
I.
I believe in 94.
He died.
He was a UK revival preacher,and his big thing was revival holiness.
The first 20 years of his life.
I read his biographies about,I want to say, 500 pages.

(01:10:24):
The first 20 years of his lifewasn't really known.
And he was out in the streetspretty preaching with, you know,
a couple other faithful men.
They were literally just likecircuit riders.
They just went aroundeverywhere preaching for years, and
they would get big crowds.
Like, they would cause traffic.
People would, you know, justcome and just listen to them.
You know, they would seepeople come to the faith.
You know, they experience, youknow, the Holy Spirit, you know,

(01:10:45):
moving, revival, conviction of sins.
Because that's what happenswhen the Holy Spirit shows up.
He convicts men of their sins.
There's this real brokenness.
There's real humbling andhumility, this real transformation.
So the first 20 years of hislife is pretty much just not really
well known, but that's a good thing.
And yeah, again, his big thingwas revival.

(01:11:05):
He was big and huge because ofthat on prayer.
And he would always say, noman is greater than his prayer life.
And he would literally spendhours and hours in prayer.
And he would even talk abouthow there were certain men out there
they would, back in their day,equivalent to podcasts, they had
their mailing list.
I don't know if you remember that.
You know, there would be like,well, if you grew up, you know, in
the Christian world, in likethe 90s or 2000s, there, you know,

(01:11:29):
there'd be mailing lists whereyou would get on.
It would just be like a, youknow, subscribing to a YouTube, right?
You know, you get the notifications.
They, you know, they wouldsend out their mail to his mailing
list and he would talk abouthow there are men who have these
mailing lists.
And, you know, it doesn'tmatter because if I'll, you know,
if I follow them around intheir life and share their prayer
life, it's probably not goingto be good.

(01:11:49):
And I'll let you know howgodly a man is, by the way, amount
of prayer time that he spendsin prayer.
And so he lived it.
He lived the true Christian life.
I think every man should belistening to him.
He convicts you of sin and itjust makes you realize and puts a
focus on we are not who weshould be.
And we're in a huge, hugeproblem and we need the true working

(01:12:09):
of God.
And one of the things that hesaid in one of his sermons that I
heard recently, he says he wasthinking about writing a book, entitling
it Revival God's Word Way.
And he said, you know, revivalGod's Way.
Because we tried just aboutevery other way out there.
And, you know, it just makesyou realize, like, you know, again,
he's right.
You know, we're trying to dorevival our way.

(01:12:29):
Like one of this, you know,preachers on X says, like, America
isn't ready or doesn't havethe stomach, you know, for revival.
And when I look at him, whathe thinks revival is, is he thinks
exactly the things that we'retalking about.
Crusade, vainglor, Christiannationalism being based in Christ.
Revival has to come from God.

(01:12:50):
It can only come from God.
And we always think revivalhappens to Johnny down the street,
who's an atheist, right?
Not realizing revival happensto Bob the mechanic, who goes to
church and has been going tochurch his whole entire life and
finally comes under theconviction of sins, confesses his
sin because he's broken overit and has a true transformation.

(01:13:10):
Revival happens in the church.
Church.
It doesn't happen outside the church.
It happens in the church.
And that means this is the bigpart that nobody wants.
You have to acknowledge,confess and forsake your sins.
And for people in the church,the religious people, those are usually
the most people who arehardened and cold and callous because

(01:13:31):
they just been hearing thisthe whole life.
Jesus loves you.
This is the gospel.
Yeah, I know it.
I don't need to hear it.
I know.
Pick up your cross.
I'm good.
Good.
When revival comes, all thatgets real and all that gets pressed
upon you and you feel theweight of it.
And then what happens is youget clothed with power from on high.
Just like on Pentecost.
You go out and you preach and teach.
But it starts with the peopleof God coming together, praying,

(01:13:52):
waiting for the Holy Spirit,not making a fake fire, because fake
fires, you know, are just abunch of worldly entertainment that's
not real.
And Ravenhill would alwayssay, is that you can never imitate
a fire.
So in other words, if God setsa man on fire, you're going to know
it.
You're not going to mistake it.
Get on the day of Pentecost,you couldn't deny that was a moving

(01:14:16):
of God.
Men were convicted of their sins.
They saw the power and theworking on it.
You couldn't buy that, youcouldn't imitate that.
You couldn't duplicate that.
It comes only from God.
And we have to be desperatefor God.
That's our only hope.
And once you have it, it, likeif you're full of the Holy Spirit.
Why in the world would I wantall this cheap, stupid entertainment?

(01:14:38):
It's.
It's so vain.
It's so empty.
It really is the best thing tobe filled with God, the Holy Spirit.
You cannot.
I never experienced, you know,something better.
Like.
Like there is nothing greaterout there than being filled with
the Holy Spirit.
Like, I.
I always.
I wish I could just experienceit all, all the time.
And sometimes, you know, whenyou do experience it, you know, you
feel like I just want to dieor just explode because it's too

(01:14:59):
great sometimes.
But it is that good.
And that's what we have to pursue.
And once you get a taste forit, hopefully we realize, man, that's
the real deal.
This is why I should bepursuing God.
This is why I should not bepursuing that.
That's a waste of time.
This is what I want.
I want true Holy Ghost fire,not hellfire.
People will say, we needhellfire preachers.

(01:15:20):
Really what you need is heaven.
Fire preachers.
It's the fire from heaven, youknow, it's a fire from God, the Holy
Spirit, not hell.
Because that's the trueanointing that we need.
That's the doctrine.
Amen to all that, by the way.
That's the doctrine of regeneration.
Like, you can actually beregenerated in Christ and be interned
from sin and live a godly andrighteous and sober life.

(01:15:41):
You can actually do that andthen you have true peace.
That doesn't mean that youhave an easy free, easygoing kind
of life, but it means you havetrue peace with God.
God.
And that's what true revivallooks like, I think, if you ask me,
as opposed to, you know, weneed to impose social, political,
and moral values on a waywardcountry by force, from the top down.

(01:16:06):
That's not revival.
My church prays every week.
You know, Paul's prayer that Iam the chief of sinners.
And when men get to the pointwhere it's like, yeah, no, I think
I'm pretty good.
I'm pretty free of sin.
Sin, that's when you canreliably say no.
That's when you're.
That's when you're the most in sin.
Because I guarantee you thatyou are not keeping the first commandment
in view all the time, whichis, are you doing everything that

(01:16:27):
you're doing to the glory of God?
Because if you really arereflecting all of your thoughts,
words, and actions in hisglory, you're seeing yourself reflect
in that light, you'll realizeI'm a man of unclean lips.
And then it's so profoundly,it's humbling.
It can be humiliating.
If we reject the call tohumility, we get humiliation.
And then we're brought down toour knees.
But then God lifts us up tostand again and we serve Him.

(01:16:50):
And men are just shortcircuiting that entire process to
think that, like, yeah, no,like, I read some verses that say
I can go do this.
Like, I can go hate people.
And so, yeah, I'm good.
Like, no, man, you justcompletely missed the entire point
of everything.
Well done, by the way.
And then if you mention yougot to forgive, you know, your enemies.
Oh, you're just being abiblical natural law.

(01:17:12):
You got to just read the book.
You won't debate this guy.
Go be Catholic.
Serious, just go be Catholic.
If you want to do the naturallaw thing, have fun with that.
You know, that's a wholeseparate conversation.
But, yeah, I think many ofthem will be Catholic.
I fully agree.
I fully agree.
And that.
And that's why I'm kind of surprised.

(01:17:32):
Do you want to take.
Do you want to take a momentto go chat?
No, no, I'm good.
It's okay.
Lon, I'll be out the in bet.
Family life and.
Babe, this is too important.
I'm doing a podcast.
Babe, are you podcasting againabout those Twitter Anons.
Exactly.
Exactly.
No, that's why I'm actuallyjust maybe not to divert the conversation

(01:17:52):
too far.
I'm actually quite surprisedthat The Catholic Church didn't appoint
a conservative Pope because Ithink if the church had appointed
a truly, genuinelyconservative Pope, I think we would
have seen a lot of reform guysjust swim the Tiber.
But that didn't happen.
So I don't know, we get stuckwith them maybe.
I don't know.
I was expecting that actually.
I was thinking that we weregoing to get a, you know, a base

(01:18:15):
Catholic and then, man, youwould have seen some, you, you definitely
would have seen some conversions.
But, you know, I guess theyjust wanted to go middle of the road
again.
Moderate guy, you know, just a typical.
Was it Francis was a lot.
Was the last Pope.
I, I, I honestly don't pay toomuch attention to right, you know,
the popes myself, but I wasshocked and you know, American Pope
too.
I, I was wondering what their,the reasoning for that is, but who

(01:18:37):
knows?
I don't, I, I honestly,honestly have no idea.
But I think it's going tocontinue the slower leftward slide
of the, of the Catholic Churchfor sure.
And I think what's, so what'ssad about it is that like, you have
to either go along or risk excommunication.
And if you believe that yoursalvation is tied to belonging to
a formal, you know,ecclesiastical organization, they

(01:19:00):
kick you out of your church,your dance damned.
It's like they have that powerover your soul.
It's an incredible, it's anincredible place to be and not in
a good way.
It's hard too to be RomanCatholic, because if I were to convert,
you can't just accept one thing.
You have to accept everything.
That's right.
And the big issue is, well,what does that mean?

(01:19:21):
I honestly want to ask eventhese Eastern Orthodox guys, it's
funny how we're talking aboutthis now, but I want to ask these
Eastern Orthodox guys, it's okay.
It's like when they convert toEastern Orthodox, like after becoming
or after being a Protestant,do they view themselves as if they
weren't saved all those yearsthat they were earnestly following
and believing in Christ?

(01:19:41):
I wonder how that works out intheir minds.
Or do they try to make anuance where it's like, well, there
was a fullness of the faithand I wasn't really.
I was a part of the body insome mystical way, but not really.
And now I really amexperiencing that.
That, because that's the hard reality.
Where you look at thesechurches, they both have dogmatized
each other.
I know the problem is if yousay I'm infallible and I'm Going

(01:20:05):
to dogmatize an anathema on you.
Both of you guys are foreverlocked unless you admit I don't have
that infallible authority.
And then the whole thing just crumbles.
And so it's like if they said,okay, Eastern Orthodox, says the
Roman Catholic Church, you'reanathematized, vice vice versa.
You're now eternally locked in.
You know, you're not the onetrue church until you come and join

(01:20:26):
us.
And it's like, you know, doyou really want to be a part of that?
I.
I don't see the.
I mean, I guess I do see theappeal sometimes, but then when you
think about it, it's likelying down on that pillow, that's
hard.
That's a hard bed to.
To, you know, make, you know,your home in.
Yeah, it.
It seems to me that the waythat these churches.
This is just what I observ.

(01:20:47):
The way that these churchesframe regeneration is, you know,
that you're regenerated by howhappy you are doing our sacramental
system.
That's Roman Catholicism.
If you faithfully andenthusiastically perform the sacraments,
congratulations.
That is your regeneration.
And the same seems to be truefor Eastern Orthodox that the more

(01:21:07):
you can engage in our rigorousdisciplines, you know, that that
is your regeneration.
So I would imagine that aProtestant who, who joins one of
those churches, like, yeah, Ihad faith, but I wasn't being sanctified
because I wasn't doing all ofthese sacraments that were determined
by traditions of men.
And, you know, I just.
I don't see freedom in Christcoming from any of that.
That's not to say someonecan't be saved in those churches.

(01:21:30):
Obviously they can, but these,These systems don't save.
And because I haven't seen it.
I haven't.
I haven't seen it.
And it's.
It's very sad.
And, and I think a lot ofpeople are rightfully disappointed
with, With Protestantism,American Evangelicalism for the past
hundred years, like, I don.
Say that there aren't validcriticisms there.
But leaping into a sacramentalsystem isn't actually what you're

(01:21:53):
looking for.
You're not looking for pompand circumstance and pageantry and
beards and incense.
Like, that's not actuallygoing to do it.
I know it feels holy, but yourfeelings are not in themselves sources
of authority.
God's word is the authority.
It's less.
And isn't it less obvious?
That's such a good point.
It feels holy, but yourfeelings aren't validated or the

(01:22:18):
standard for truth is Less.
It's not obvious sometimesthat men are also falling for the
trap of sensationalism and emotionalism.
Because I was even thinkingabout this this week.
What's the fruit of many ofthese guys who either go Rome or
go Eastern Orthodox?
The fruit of their conversionis let me create a Twitter account
and argue all day long andanathematize everybody.

(01:22:43):
That's the fruit of themjoining this church rather than,
as the scripture says, thefruit of the spirit.
And it's fruit.
So it's not just fruit, it'sfruit, singular.
So Paul is saying this is whatthe fruit is.
It's all of this.
Not one love, joy, peace,patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness, self control.
Rather than let me create anon Twitter account, go EO bro, and

(01:23:05):
just argue again.
Argue all day long andanathematize and watch Jay Dyer,
you know, YouTube and get inthe chat that, you know, if some,
something's wrong, if that,that's what convert your conversion
meant.
Rather than I'm going to loveChrist and demonstrate the fruits
of the spirit, love the churchagain, people can mock that, but
this is just biblical Christianity.
And what is the fruit?
You know, you're going to knowthem by their fruit.

(01:23:26):
Some people do earnestly, youknow, convert to EO and Rome and
you know, I believe a lot ofthem are Christians, but a lot of
them online, I don't know,dude, like, I, I worry about them.
If this is what your EasternOrthodoxy has led to, this is your
fruit.
And this is what I'm seeing.
And I just don't see how thisis like, why should I join EO so
I can be in your click and getin on the hate?

(01:23:48):
It's like, you know, what'sthe point of that?
This, it's just, you know,it's just another form of the manosphere
world really, you know,seeping into that is this.
Men trying to find a purpose themselves.
They get really excited aboutsomething and this becomes their
whole world.
And it's just, it's just vanity.
And I think a lot of those EOconverts and, and the conference

(01:24:09):
to Rome, I think maybe afterfive, 10 years, even in the Christian
nationalist world, I thinkthey're going to look back and realize,
yeah, I was a cage stager.
Yeah, you know, I was a littlehot headed, I needed to cool down,
you know, I shouldn't havewent so hard.
And hopefully, you know, it's,that's the consistent fruit, you
know, from there on out.
But it's definitely not theHoly Spirit moving in those men Right

(01:24:30):
there.
Because we know what the HolySpirit, what it looks like from the
Scriptures.
Again, there's conviction of sin.
There is a genuine humblenessand brokenness over yourself person.
There's a burden for the Lordand there's the fruits of the Spirit.
And that's how we know who isand has experienced that new inner,
transformational working ofGod that only comes through the Gospel.
It's not that guy on Twitterarguing all day because he just recently

(01:24:52):
converted to Eastern Orthodoxy.
Yeah, when I started mypodcast in 2020 in the manosphere,
I had already been baptized.
And then, so not too longafter that, maybe within a year or
two, two, a lot of other menstarted discovering Christianity
as well.
And they all went EasternOrthodox, almost all of them.
And then a whole.
Yeah, oh yeah, a whole bunchof other ones went Roman Catholic

(01:25:14):
late.
At first they were Protestantand then they went Roman Catholic.
And I was the only guy to myknowledge, who has main.
Who has remained a Protestant.
So of, of this initial smallgroup of guys on Instagram in the
manosphere since then.
And the, the, the thing thatbreaks my heart is that since sanctification
started kicking in for me, butwhen I first recognized it for what

(01:25:35):
it was after a couple years,the transformation in my life and
my everyday feelings of peacewith God, you know, obviously it's
not something that I can takefor granted and don't, but has, has
just radically transformed theway that I see the world.
And the men that I know whohave been Eastern Orthodox, I've
not seen a similar change in them.
And it grieves me very deeply.

(01:25:55):
And I had heard, I wentlooking into Eastern Orthodoxy to
try and understand the doctrine.
And I listened to a sermon ora lecture about it or something like
that, and the person who wasdelivering lecture said, like, look,
this is a common thing thatmen get into Eastern Orthodoxy and
they think it's like theyanswered all their problems and they
find after a few years thatthe guild falls off the lily and

(01:26:17):
they see there are moredivisions in there.
It's not the one true unified church.
And the scales fall off ofyour eyes and you see what's really
going on, on.
And there's a giantdisillusionment process that happens.
And you know, that's, youknow, I don't wish that for my friends.
However, like, it makes a lotof sense that, you know, it's like,
okay, so now I've committed tothis lifelong ritualistic practice

(01:26:40):
of quote unquote spiritualdisciplines, but it's not producing
the fruit of the spirit.
In my life, it's not producingthe peace that passes understanding.
I don't have that peace with God.
God.
It's like, well, you canactually have that.
And biblical Christianitypromises it.
And just because your parentsgot it wrong, just to come back to
the whole parents issue, justbecause your parents got Protestantism

(01:27:02):
wrong or were part of some nondenominational dispensationalist
church or whatever, does notsay anything about the biblical faith
as a whole.
And you can actually findpeace with God through biblical Christianity
and by finding a faithful church.
Church.
But you know, you might, youmight have to realize like, hey,
this isn't what I thought it is.

(01:27:22):
And there are so many, thereare so many traps for young men today
in so many different ways.
I don't doubt that there aremany people that have had incredible
experiences in EasternOrthodoxy and they're being sanctified.
Maybe the Holy Spirit's comeupon them.
Same with Rome.
Like, you know, there aresaved people in those churches.
But that doesn't automaticallymean that joining that church is
going to save you in the way,the ways that we're talking about.

(01:27:44):
And young men are lost andwandering and aimless like you and
I talked about earlier,earlier in our lives.
And you know, we bothprofoundly blessed to have found
God in His Word first and whata gift that is from Him.
It's a gift from Him.
I mean, maybe we disagreewith, disagree on that to some extent
actually.
No, no, it's a gift.
Yeah, definitely a gift.
Yeah.
So, so, and, and I just, Iwant to encourage men to think more

(01:28:06):
deeply about some of theissues that we're talking about because
you and I both were waywardmen in, in various ways.
And now we're very blessed tomeet at this moment in our lives
where you're married, you'vegot a child.
I'm about to get, I'm engaged,I'm getting married soon.
And it's like that's a giftfrom God to live that way.
And those are fruits of the spirit.
Those are fruits of obedience.

(01:28:26):
They're not the point of the thing.
And so just to be, I want tobe in the midst are talking about
many problems with the faithright now, of which there are many.
Like, there is always hope inhis word.
There is always hope in His Word.
And that's the true thing thatI think is so important for men to
give get.
So we just went evangelizingon Saturday with, with a couple of
my Christian brothers and Imet a Jehovah's Witness and, and

(01:28:50):
couple Catholics and What'sinteresting is when I was reminded
that there is a big, you know,speaking of Roman Catholicism, there
is a big problem with a lot ofthese very high church, liturgical,
apostolic, quote unquote, theydon't preach the gospel.
Because when I asked theJehovah's Witness what is the gospel,
he couldn't tell me.
And then when I asked theCatholic, who is a Roman Catholic

(01:29:14):
and goes to a Catholic Church,they also couldn't answer the question.
And it just reminds me of alot of these people.
Some of them are saved, Idon't know how many.
I don't doubt it.
But I also know that there isa big problem in these high churches
where the gospel, it is notpreached and people don't know it

(01:29:34):
because especially withEastern Orthodoxy when it's very
mystical and a lot of thosethings are, are very beautiful, as
we talked about, but how muchof it is communicating and teaching
the word of God where they canunderstand what it means to have
that, you know, that, thattrue faith and assurance of salvation
in the preaching of the word.
Like Martin Luther was savedby the reading of the word when he
understood it.

(01:29:54):
John Wesley actually heardMartin Luther's commentary being
read on Romans and that'swhere he had his, his Alders Gate
experience, that, that, thatwhere his heart was strangely warm
and he felt like that he didtrust in Christ alone for his salvation.
Where a lot of these churches,you know, you go get the sacrament,
you know, you do the prayers,you say, you know the words back,

(01:30:16):
you participate, there isbeauty all around you.
But when you ask them, what'sthe gospel?
I don't know it.
I mean that's a huge, huge,you know, major problem.
And it shows, shows us andreminds me that, you know, the Reformation
was needed, it was a goodthing because it was.
And you know what's funny toois, and this is what these Christian

(01:30:37):
nationalist bros don't realize.
And by the way, I'm not sayingall Christian nationalists are like
this because a lot of them aren't.
But I mean like the dissidentright people, when you look at Martin
Luther, he was not arguing hiswhite Anglo Saxon race.
He was not arguing Christian nationalism.
It was about the Gospel.
What is the gospel and what'sour authority?

(01:30:59):
And is it in the Scriptures oris it in men?
And that's what he was pushing.
And it was again a gospelissue, to use that term as the Gospel
Coalition likes to say it allthe time.
Well, they're obviously sayingit in a wrong way because they're
attaching it to leftist ideas.
But Martin Luther was sayingno justification by faith alone is
where the church stands or falls.

(01:31:20):
That's what it was, that'swhere it needs to be.
And again, if we substitutethese other things going back full
swing circle, all these thingscan really just be reduced down to
it.
It's like surprise, the Biblereally is telling you the truth that
men need the gospel and that'sthe only of salvation.
You can all just boil all this down.
It always just circles back tothis true Christianity, the scriptures,

(01:31:42):
it always just falls down tois the word of God true or is the
word of men true?
And it depends on what we putour faith in.
We're either going to bedamned or we're going to be saved.
And that's the difference.
Well if the word of God istrue, which it is, but if it is,
we should expect to see, seeblessings for faithfulness in the

(01:32:04):
covenant.
Right?
So the word of men says thatmen should be their own authorities,
men should assert their ownpower and take the things that they
want by force.
Right.
But you should grow in power.
This is kind of theNietzschean model, this is just the
human model.
Nietzsche is just aphilosopher who put words to what
humanity had been doing forthousands of years.

(01:32:25):
But you can rise in yourphysical or financial power, power
and just take what you wantand then congratulations, you've
got, you got a wife and yougot kids and you got a house and
a car and you know, whatever,millions of dollars and like, haha,
look how righteous I am.
Right?
But it's all built on arotting, it's all built on a rotting
foundation.
Unless the Lord builds thehouse, they labor in vain who build
it.
But if instead, you know, and,and that's the preaching of the manosphere

(01:32:48):
is you should grow in powerand take the things you want, whether
it be, you know, just go take it.
Right?
You can just do things.
I believe is what people aresaying now, right?
You can actually just do things.
Yeah, and that's true.
You just do things and youdon't need the approval of everybody
to do it, but you have to bechecking your heart when you're doing
the thing.
Or you can repent for sin andyou can trust God as the author of

(01:33:12):
all victories and you beobedient to him and you pray and
you stay in the scriptures andyou make sure to keep your own passions
in check and you live that out daily.
It's long slow discipline.
You live that out daily andyou watch the blessings come to you.
When God, when God givesriches, he adds no sorrow with it.
Something like that I believe,is the verse.
And do we actually believe that?

(01:33:34):
Or is it like, nope, I justgot to take this.
I just got to take this for myself.
Even though the Psalms say,you know, victory is not with force
of arms and horses, it's withthe Lord.
You know, like, that's whereit comes from.
It comes from him, and there'sno sorrow in that victory.
But men are so longing andanxious, you know, for this earthly
victory that they're justgoing to go take it and we'll sort

(01:33:56):
it out later.
There's no time for the gospel.
We have to save the West.
It's like, yeah, dude, that'sso true.
What.
What a shame, right?
Yeah.
No, it, that is a hundredpercent so accurate, where it's like,
you want to just preach thegospel, bro, and just, you know,
spend time in prayer.
Like, it's so funny how theymock you, but they can't see it.

(01:34:17):
That's right.
It's, it's, you know, like, Iremember I was talking to my friend
that I lost in this, and I wasquoting the scripture.
Scripture, and, and he justhad this mockery and like, this,
like, you got to be kidding me.
Like, you're quoting to me the scriptures.
Like, you know, like, I likenatural law and stuff like this.
This is about politics.
It's about winning.
It's like, I, I, I look atthat and I just see apostasy is what

(01:34:42):
it is.
Like, that's what happened.
Like, this is what it lookslike when men just forsake God's
word.
They scoff and they mock you.
Yes.
I've.
I've seen it in my own life.
Life.
Several times.
Like, not just once with close friend.
Not just with close friends, though.
That has also happened.
And it's been a great grief to me.
I've lost the friends who aremaybe not close friends.

(01:35:02):
And I've just watched so manymen walk down this path over the
past couple years, and it's,it's accelerating.
It's frightening to watch.
It's like, I thought we were gonna.
I thought we were gonna dolife together, right, with our families
and stuff.
But, like, where.
I'm not gonna follow you that way.
I can't follow you that way.
Way.
And then I'm the bad guy.
And it's like, I don't under.

(01:35:23):
I don't understand it.
It's so seductive.
And it blinds men's eyes andsears their consciences, and we're
seeing it all around us, andwhen you try and point out the very
obvious thing that this is happening.
Oh, you're making that up.
Or you're some liberal orsomething like that.
Examples of that.
Yeah, that doesn't exist.
Then the bullying and theshaming comes out, you know, and

(01:35:43):
it's like, okay, like, youwant to, I mean, call that Christian,
I guess, but you can just flipyour way through the, the, through
the New Testament and seethat, like, that's not the overall
character of how Christiansconduct themselves.
There's no, there's no call,like, I love your bit about, like,
well, if Paul were, If Paulwere really saying this, we would
see it.
And that's not what we see at all.
Even in, you know, even in hisepistles, he's not like, watch me
kick down the door and tellyou what's.

(01:36:04):
What.
It's like, no, I came to youwith, like, lack of skillful words
and was not a physicallyimposing presence, but he spoke with
authority and his words resonate.
Resonate.
And men were called toattention and souls were saved.
And, you know, that didn'tmean they overthrew the Roman Empire,
you know, through force of arms.
Certainly that was a victorythat belongs to God in many ways.

(01:36:25):
And the gospel spread fromthere, but it wasn't through their
own.
Through their own strength.
In fact, it was through theirown death.
Christianity spreads by martyrdom.
Do we remember that?
Do we believe that?
Yeah.
Well, what's that quote?
Martyr.
The blood of martyrs is a seedof the church.
Who said that?
Was it Augustine?
Maybe somebody said it.
Great quote.
But, yeah, they don't realize that.

(01:36:45):
It's like, look at the apostles.
All of them died pretty muchlike horrible deaths.
I'm pretty sure I'm beingfaithful to that.
Paul definitely lost his head.
Peter crucified upside down.
Jesus.
Jesus was a martyr.
That's right.
Jesus was the first martyr.
Right.
And, you know, we don't.
Look, Stephen.
Stephen, Yep, he was getting stoned.
But again, you know, peoplenowadays on the dissident, right,

(01:37:07):
they're preaching the gospelof vain glory, you know, we're going
to win down here.
And you know what's funny isthere is truth to that.
Like, in Christ, you win, butI'm going to win regardless if they
chop my head off or not.
Like, Paul wasn't a loser whenRome chopped his head off.
And he didn't get Christiannationalism in his lifetime.

(01:37:27):
But again, that's his.
Oh, you're just a loser.
You're just a defeatist.
You're just loser theology.
Yeah, Loser.
Yeah.
Remember that not so much anymore.
It used to be more of a pushfor before post male.
Now it's just Christian nationalism.
Now it's just nationalism.
It's not even Christian nationalism.
It's just nationalism.

(01:37:47):
Now some of them are evensaying we don't even need the Christian
in front of the nationalism,which is bollocks.
But.
Right.
Yeah, it is a very difficult call.
I was saying this to MickOlson on my podcast with him.
There's a supernatural levelof difficulty to living the Christian
life, which is why only oneguy did it perfectly, and that would

(01:38:08):
be Jesus.
One person of the Trinity.
He pulled it off.
That's.
You know, But.
But the rest of us, we'realways going to fall short.
And we're called to always beskeptical of our motivations and
our intentions and toconstantly be comparing them to God's
word.
And, yeah, of course, thatwill lead to a necessary amount of
uncertainty in ourselves.
And it's much more, you know,sexy or masculine to be confident

(01:38:31):
out there in the marketplace.
Like, well, guess what?
We're not called to be that.
We're called to be salt and light.
We're called to be.
Be, like, more.
Almost more human than.
I don't want to use thisphrase, actually, because it's from
Blade Runner.
So I was going to say morehuman than human, but that's not
a right way of putting it.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Because they're talking aboutandroids and stuff like that.
So I don't want to.
I don't want to borrow that.
But the idea is, like, we'recalled to a level of being that we

(01:38:54):
can't achieve on our own, butcertainly the Nietzschean ideal,
yeah, you could achieve thatin your own strength.
Demons can help you do it forsure, but the Holy Spirit can help
you achieve a level ofholiness, us, that truly inspires
the world and that truly leadsto real revival and repentance, because
guys are throwing that out infavor of political power and authority,

(01:39:14):
and it's a tragedy to see.
In fact, just this pastweekend, I spoke to a good friend
and a mentor, an older man,and he himself is not a believer.
And he was saying, like, look,Christians have a chance to really
make a difference in Americaright now, and you guys are screwing
it up.
What's going on?
Like, well, sorry to say that,you know, X, Y, and Z.

(01:39:34):
And so it's just.
People could see it.
It's like.
But I.
That's probably the.
And.
And it's ironic, too, because,you know, you know, these guys will
say, like, you Know, they'retough and strong, but they're so
afraid to get called out on,again, Twitter and.
And X and get ratioed.
Yeah, it's like, you know,they, you know, they can't be upfront
with what they actually sayand believe and, you know, talk about

(01:39:56):
irony.
It's like you, you know,you're supposed to be the strong
and masculine one, but youcan't even endure getting ratioed
by some, you know, like, whoknows if these guys are even real?
A lot of them, like, I think alot of them are bots.
I agree.
Or multiple.
Or one guy running multipleaccounts, honestly.
Yeah, you know, there'sdefinitely a group chat out there
where they coordinate their strikes.
You know, we definitely know that.

(01:40:17):
And yeah, that's a good point.
Maybe there's multipleaccounts and all this, you know,
teaming up on you, and it'slike, that's what I'm afraid of.
And I said this before,actually, on Carrie Smith's show.
I was like, you know, say youdo get ratioed.
You know what happens?
You put down your phone, yougo back to your family and your church.
Like, who cares?
Like, this is the real world world.
It's not something on Twitterthat the people in my life don't

(01:40:37):
even know what that means.
And if they heard that, theywould just be like, whatever, that's
stupid.
They don't even care.
Nobody cares about it.
Men are just so afraid of thatbecause really, it seems to be mostly
the smaller guys, not thebigger names, that are really speaking
out against this.
And I think it's because thebigger guys, they know it will cost
them.
And a lot of people, when theBible says count the costs, a lot

(01:40:59):
of men, they don't really wantto count that cost.
They don't want to ensurelosing people because they will lose
their followers.
And they're just too afraid.
And so they revert to nuance.
Like, it's so.
It's so hard to just get astraight answer out of these guys.
Listen to my three hour podcast.
Read this book.
It's like, bro, what are you saying?
Just give me a straight answer.
Like, this is not complicated.
This is Twitter, sir.

(01:41:20):
Yeah, tweet to me right now ina couple sentences and words.
What you actually believe.
Do you believe that this is evil?
That what we're seeing, thatjust blaming everything on Jews and
Hitler was right?
Is this evil?
Yes or no?
You don't have to dance around it.
I don't have to listen to yourthree hour podcast to understand
the complexities behind this statement.
Just Tell me.
And they won't do it becauseis that a little bit amount of words

(01:41:44):
that is going to lose them,their clout and followers and get
ostracized by these men?
You know what that is?
That's a weak man.
That's what that is.
That person who won't give youa straight answer.
That's weakness.
That's the man who's not being strong.
And that's, that's thedifference between the real men and
just the fake men.

(01:42:04):
The fake men is the guy whoshows you, oh, look at me, I'm an
alpha male.
That's right.
But the real man is the guywho doesn't have to show it.
And that's a classic, that's atimeless rule that everybody just
knows the loudest guy in theroom is not the strongest guy.
That's the man who has insecurities.
It's the man who's quiet whodoesn't need to show and display
his strength.

(01:42:25):
Yes, I talk about gravitasversus bravado.
Bravado is something you canput on a credit card, you can buy
a flashy car, you can buy abunch of followers too.
And you can make yourself seemlike a big deal with flashy sunglasses
and stuff.
That's bravado.
But gravitas is the sort ofman that orients men towards him
without, without saying awhole bunch of words.
Like they just kind ofnaturally feel the man has weight
and substance and gravity to him.

(01:42:46):
But bravado is, it's so flashyand it catches so much attention
in our hypermediated age.
And gravitas takes time to develop.
We talked about, you know, mencome into themselves starting at
around age 35.
Gravitas starts to developafter that point.
Like you've never met like a30 year old guy with gravitas.
Like, and that's not an ins to30 year old guys.
You've met a guy that has theseeds of that.

(01:43:07):
But men who have gravitas arein their 40s and they're in their
50s or sometimes they're likewhen you meet a man who's in his
70s or his 80s and hasgravitas, it's like you're just quiet
because like this guy, like Idon't know what this guy has, but
he has real weight andsubstance to him because he's lived
his life in this way and youcan't fake that.
And that's why we have onlinewe have so many seductive fakers

(01:43:28):
because you have men who grewup when they were boys Their fathers
didn't have gravitational.
And there are many reasons forthat, right?
And so the first thing theysee that looks like gravitas is bravado.
It's like, oh, that's.
That.
That's what I was looking for.
And then they get sucked intothis fake world and they don't want
the veil to get ripped off.

(01:43:49):
And you see who these guysreally are behind the scenes.
And that was the manosphere.
Like, I can't.
I don't know how much louder Ican bang this drum, that this entire
world of the manosphere isfull of grand guys with bravado.
And then Andrew Tate blows up,and then the veil got ripped off
of all of them.
And one by one, they all justpopped because they never had it
to begin with and they werefaking it.

(01:44:10):
And we're seeing that again inthe Christian sphere with Christian
language and just calling itout, just calling it out and say,
we as Christian men have astandard that we're accountable to
and we can do better.
We're calling, called by Godto do better, not to take back America,
right?
But our own relationship withGod, who gives us eternal life.

(01:44:33):
And that's the real, the meatof the thing.
I like First Timothy 2, wherePaul says to pray for all men.
And he goes in kings and thosewho are in authority.
And he says, the purpose ofthat is that so we may live a quiet
and peaceful life and thinkabout that phrase, a quiet life.
That's the kind of life that's God.

(01:44:54):
You know, it doesn't have tobe loud.
People don't have to know my name.
I don't have to be famous.
I don't have to have a bigfollowing clout.
And when you realize that thatgives you peace.
Like, I don't always need tobe banging my drum online or trying
to get people to, you know, tonotice me and building, you know,
get a name for myself.
I can be a man who's prayingfor all men, praying for their salvation,

(01:45:17):
for revival, and being a manwho's having a quiet life in all
godliness and sincerity.
This is, you know, one Timothy too.
That's, you know, that's.
That's really beautiful, youknow, and that's happiness.
Like true or true peace, Ishould say, you know, it's a better
word, you know, happiness too,because happiness is.
Is an emotion that can bedirected towards God.
You can be happy in the Lord,have joy in the Lord, you know, rather

(01:45:39):
than just trying to, you know,like, you look at these guys online,
they got big followings butit's like, are they really like how
satisfied are they?
Because it gets to you.
Like when you're just arguingwith people all day on online, that,
that does put a bitterness in you.
Like you can be again likethis, you know, new a newly recent
EO convert and you're justbattling with Protestants all day.

(01:46:02):
You're thinking about it,you're consumed about it, you're
talking about it.
You like, you know, let's be real.
There's some kind ofbitterness that, you know, that's
in you.
You have to take a break fromthat and just, you know, be quiet.
It's okay.
You don't need to respond to everything.
You don't need to be investedin everything.
Try being kind to somebody.
Try, try loving somebody andserving somebody.
Somebody.
And that's, and that's a goodthing, that's not a bad thing, that's

(01:46:22):
not a weak thing.
I appreciate you saying thatbecause, you know, I, I see myself
reflected in that there aretimes when, you know, when I've posted
things and gotten a lot ofblowback from them and maybe, maybe
even I was wrong in posting them.
And so I've learned since thento be quite a bit more disciplined
with how I use my ex accountsimply because I don't want to be
glued to my phone anddistracted all day by the thing that

(01:46:43):
I said.
Like back in, I think of backduring the Christmas holiday, there
was that whole thing withVivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk talking
about like, you know, thatwhole thing.
So Vivek.
Yeah, right.
Okay, so, so Vivek wrote thisthing and I wrote a long post in
response, but there I am up inMoscow visiting my, my now fiance
and her family and I've gotthis thing on my phone and it's maybe

(01:47:03):
the day after Christmas.
I think it's the day afterChristmas this all went down and
I'm like, if I post this rightnow, I know I'm going to be distracted
about it all day and I'm notgoing to be present with my fiance,
with my now fiance and my, andher family, which is what I'm supposed
to be be doing.
Delete.
Put my phone away.
Go back about my life.
Yeah, dude, that's awesome.
Yeah, it was a huge thing andthat thing became a multi day disaster.

(01:47:25):
And it's like, no, I just wantto enjoy the simple like the people
that I'm around right now,they don't know about this.
They're probably never goingto hear about it.
They're not going to care.
And I'm supposed to be hereright now in this moment.
And that was a very specialmoment for me, just for that reason,
because life has lived withthe people around you versus through
the screen that you don't even know.

(01:47:46):
These people you're talkingwith online, are they people?
Are they AI?
Is it someone pretending to besomeone they're not?
Like, for example, tragically,Josh Bice, you don't know.
But the people around you,they need your time and they need
your attention, and they needyour best, most sanctified self,
particularly if you're a man.
And so I think another bigtragedy of all this is how much time

(01:48:08):
we end up spending in thisworld, that there's a reality to
it.
It's not completely empty.
But I think once on JudgmentDay, once we see how little reality
was actually in it, I thinkwe'll be shocked and saddened and
grateful in a sense.
Well, you know, think about it.
So these guys are online.
And, you know, even myself,too, I'm trying to dial back from

(01:48:30):
everything that I do online, too.
Yeah, you got people to shepherd.
Yeah, you do.
But even if you think aboutwhat it means to be a man, another
quality in addition toresponsibility, respecting your father,
I think, is you are working.
And so that means is you'renot this guy online, who's this arguing
with people on social media,on Twitter.

(01:48:54):
Because imagine if we sawAndrew Tate arguing with somebody
holding a phone.
He'd be on the couch, justtweeting away, spending hours and
hours about going back andforth with certain people.
Is that what it means to be a man?
Like, we should start to view it.
I think we need to really viewa lot of this.
Like, the guy who plays videogames, he's just wasting his time.

(01:49:17):
He should be out there working.
And again, it's okay to playvideo games.
But the idea is that the manis just wasting all of his time and
energy just inside, cooped upalone, where he should be out there
working, which is what men do.
Men build.
Because we can't just tear down.
We can tear down, but we alsohave to build, build.
There has to be something thatcan last for our families.

(01:49:38):
And what that means is it'snot the man who's online arguing
all day, not being presentwith his family.
Because to your point, yeah,you could post that, it could go
viral, and then you would justbe distracted all day long when you
could otherwise just beputting that away and spending time
with your friends and family.
That's right.
That's better.
That's more manly.
And it takes true masculinityto realize, okay, here's the clout

(01:50:01):
over you here.
I can be really loud, get alot of attention, but it's okay.
I don't need to do those things.
I can be the quiet alpha malewho's with his family, loving, providing,
and protecting, as I should beas a man taking responsibility.
That's more masculine.
And I really do think we needto start looking at it that way,
especially pastors, too.
Pastors should be primarilyinvested in their church, because

(01:50:22):
I think of some pastors whoare out there, like, just podcasting
three times a week, and I'mlike, there is no way you're being
a faithful pastor master.
Yeah, maybe there's some way,you know, that they're doing it,
and I just don't know about it.
And I'm just a young buck.
I'm highly suspicious aboutall this time they're spending online
when they should be doingother things with the people, the

(01:50:43):
community surrounding in frontof them.
Oh, I can relate to that, absolutely.
Like, I've got a lot of thingsthat I enjoy writing and creating
my own content and, you know,mentoring men as well.
And, and I jump on a lot ofpodcasts with people, and I enjoy
these conversations, butconversations like this take a lot
out of me.
And so just over the past weekalone, I've turned down, like, a

(01:51:04):
number, like, five or sodifferent invitations to appear on
people's shows because I wantto put my best self into it, but
I got other stuff that I gotto build, especially with a wife
and a family inbound.
And so, of course, yeah, a mancan get to a point where he has excess
bandwidth that he can put intothe online fight, and I have no problem
with that.
I'm not saying we all need tothrow our phones out in the ocean.
We should throw our phones inthe ocean.

(01:51:25):
But, but, but at the sametime, you know, I, I, I really.
And I'm very convicted by theidea, like, oh, my gosh.
Like, I should really thinkabout this as, like, an unjust use
of video games.
I don't have a problem withvideo games either, or watching Netflix
or whatever.
I don't do either of thosethings, but that's fine.
But, like, you know, is thisreally the best.
Is really this really the bestuse of my time in this moment?
Is this the main thing I needto be working on?

(01:51:46):
And I just.
He probably won't hear this,but I want to give a shout out to
shout out to my buddy NateSpearing and Nathan Spearing had
a podcast, Life on Target podcast.
Great influencer, former U.S.
army Special for U.S.
army Ranger Special Forces.
Elite level soldier.
Right?
So he's a.
He's a.
He's the kind of guy that,like, he did all the stuff.
He did all the things, all thethings that a lot of guys talk about.

(01:52:06):
He did them.
He could be a very successfulinfluencer right now if he wanted
to.
But instead he's building hisbusiness, which is general contracting
and building a home for his family.
He ain't got a lot of time for content.
He'll post a reel oroccasionally on.
On Instagram where it's like,this is my.
These are me and my kidsliterally building our family home,
you know, and it's like,praise God for doing that, because

(01:52:27):
that will last down throughthe generations versus look, I'm
grateful for podcasts and Twitter.
I don't mean to say that, youknow, these things are meaningless,
but there's something verylike, like ephemeral about that.
You're not building a legacyof, of podcasts, of digital, of digital
contents.
And I have to remember digital content.
I have to remind myself ofthat, that there are things that
I want to build of more subs.
Substance.
And very rarely does creatingcontent specifically on social media,

(01:52:53):
particularly about everydaytrends like this is what everyone's
talking about today.
Very rarely does that make anymeaningful contribution for the long
term.
But again, it's the otherthing that men can get so wrapped
up in.
Like, I'm part of this fight.
It's like, but when you turnit off, do you see that fight around
you anywhere?
No.
Yeah.
Well, you know what?
James.

(01:53:13):
James White said that, youknow, things online with trends happen
so fast, where the moment youeven try to respond to some, you
know, something, people wouldjust be like, dude, that's so old,
you know?
You know, you know, like, whatare you talking about?
When really it was just twoweeks ago.
That's how fast trends happened.
And then you get, you know,stuck in that trap of, you know,

(01:53:33):
the trend train where peopleare always trying to jump on the
latest, you know, controversyso you can get those clicks and likes
where the moment it happens,you got to jump on it fast.
And sometimes it's, you know,get again.
It's freeing to not care aboutthat and just do it at your own leisure.
And just to realize, again,the people in front of me, that quiet
life, like one Timothy in allgodliness, that's a better life than

(01:53:55):
being stuck on thatcontroversy trend train where I just
Got to jump on the latest thing.
And the reality is people getover it so fast.
For one week they're talkingabout this controversy.
Next week it's talking aboutthis controversy.
One week it's Churchill is themain villain.
Next week it's like, Shiloh Hendricks.
Yeah, yeah.
Or my wife has to wear a reddress for 30 days in a row.

(01:54:18):
Then we try to respond to that.
It's like, bro, what are youtalking about?
You know, we got to talk about my.
Right.
White Anglo Saxon race.
Yeah, yeah.
It's always something.
And it'll all be gone.
It'll all.
It'll all be gone in a matterof years.
I don't think we're stillgoing to be talking about these topics
in a couple years.
But you know what?
We'll remain as your family.
What remain is it anybusinesses you've built will remain
as your physical health.

(01:54:39):
All these things will remain.
But, you know, these digitalproducts that we create, meaning
conversations and tweets andstuff, they don't have the substance
that I think we imagine thatthey do.
But everything's so mediatedonline now.
They feel substantial, but ina very real sense, like they're not.
What do you think is going tohappen in the future with where we're

(01:55:01):
going?
Because we're definitely woke.
Leftism is definitely dying.
Dying.
It's still here in power, butthere's definitely been a shift with
this last election.
We can definitely see that.
What do you think is going tohappen with the church?
What do you think is the next battle?
I said nominal Christianityand fascism, but I'm just curious
of what you predict.

(01:55:21):
I think you're right about thefascism part, particularly.
I think this phenomenon.
Dissident.
Right, New Christian, right, woke.
Right.
Whatever term you want to usethis week.
I think that there's realityto that.
I think it's.
What we see online is verymuch the tip of the iceberg.
And I think that has beenbuilding for decades.
I don't think it's new.

(01:55:42):
I think it's something thatwas in the underground of the Internet
for many years and now it'sburst up through Elon X and has its
own particular front in theReformed world.
It's happening everywhere.
But the reformed world isdealing with a particular manifestation
of it.
And I think it's real.
And I think on some deeplevel, it's coordinated.
And I think it's a push.
I think that we'll call it amachine is going to continue pushing.

(01:56:04):
Right.
And it's concealing itself asa response to Leftism, but that's
not really what it is.
It's going to try and pushright and to swing the pendulum the
other way.
And then there's one of two choices.
It's either going to succeedand we're going to end up in this
sort of fascist top downdictatorship, or it's going to fail
and generate this massiveswing back to the left.

(01:56:25):
And so that's, you know, ifit's allowed to continue pushing
forward, if it isn't stoppedby men holding the line and pointing
to it and identifying it overand over and over again and dragging
it into the light, it'll continue.
The tricky part is that Trumpis not a fascist.
Trump is not a right wing extremist.
He never has been.
So the question is, once itrises to the awareness of the Trump

(01:56:47):
administration, how do theyhandle it?
Do they go with it?
Do they push back on it anddeal with the consequences?
That's the part that I'mreally unsure about.
But long before it gets there,courageous men need to stand up in
the public square and point atit and, and say, that's wrong, that
is evil, that is Antichrist.
And I'm not going to say otherwise.
And you can bully and you canshame me and you can call me names

(01:57:09):
all you want, and yet I seeyou and I think that's what's going
to be required to slow it down.
Just imagine if it does go, arepeat of 1930 Germany.
Like, because if you, youknow, as you and I have studied and
talked about this and I lovestudying World War II.
Yeah, it was, it's sointeresting because those first couple

(01:57:29):
years they, you, you can seethis, the exact same mentality with,
we're going to win, bro, we're winning.
They were so excited.
They genuinely felt like thiswas the beginning of a thousand year
Reich.
We won.
Yeah.
Like the kingdom of God ishere now.
Our guys in power.
And then fast forward, justutter destruction and that.

(01:57:50):
And that's the vanity of, ofinvesting all in this life.
Those, like, there's nodifference between the dissident
Reich and those guys now.
It's just the same mentality.
We're going to win down here, guys.
This is it.
Let's get the power.
Let's wield it for our owngood and create our own utopia.
Bring in the kingdom of God.
And the end of that was 12 years.
And their country literallygot destroyed.

(01:58:12):
In an absolute real sense,destroyed, annihilated.
And that's, that's the, youknow, that's the end goal of trying
to do your own thing and build.
Build, you know, your kingdom.
Even if you think you'rerighteous because, you know, we forget
the villain in stories.
It's not like I'm evil, guys.
I just want to do this.
It's always, I have a justification.

(01:58:33):
That's how.
How every.
Pretty much every villain is depicted.
He always has his own versionand justification.
Even Satan's version.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That sounds reasonable.
To wipe out half of theuniverse, right?
Yep.
Yeah.
Ra's al Ghul, you know, we'redoing this in the name of justice.
We're going to destroy GothamCity because, you know, it's too

(01:58:53):
decadent and we just gotta,you know, hit the reset button.
This is a good thing.
This is what, you know, wehave to have the stone to do this.
And, you know, we've heardtalk like, you got to have the will.
I forget the terminology theyuse, but you have to have the will
to crush your opponent completely.
Or something like that.
Something like that, yeah.
Yeah.
It's just, you know, just.
Just horrible stuff, but, youknow, that's what it is.

(01:59:13):
And now look at it.
You know, they're gone and that.
And, you know, life's a vapor.
What I think would beprofoundly ironic and perhaps even
possible is you have this, youknow, young rising tide of angry
white, quote, unquote,Christian, Christian men who really
are going apostate fast and slow.
Some are on the faster road and.

(01:59:34):
And they've.
They've seared theirconsciences and they're already there.
Some are shaving off bits ofit to fit in with their bros or to
be part of the in thing,whatever reason.
But wouldn't it be.
It be ironic if all of thesemen are just carved out of the trees?
And then there's a massiverevival amongst immigrants in the
United States.
You know, you see this bigswing that all these.
In all these Indian, as infrom India, and this massive revival

(01:59:57):
of all of.
All of people of variousshades of brown from around the world
inside America, all make thesegiant profession of face or like
China becomes Christian orsomething like that.
It's like, yeah, we didn'tactually need the white guys to spread
the gospel.
Like, God's got this covered, dudes.
I don't know that I want topray for that scenario specifically,

(02:00:19):
but, you know, the gospel isgoing to spread one way or another,
and it's not tied to a skin color.
Well, that's what's happeningin Africa.
They're doing far better thanus, right?
Us white people over here,we're Woke.
That's what it is.
Our ladies are purple hair,short hair, feminists.

(02:00:39):
You go to Africa, theChristianity is growing.
Take that Corey Mallor.
That's right.
Well, James White told awonderful story about how he went
to go.
He went this, I think he saidthis was in the 90s or something
like that.
It was on this post debatestream after the breakdown.
I think he was doing it withLuke Pearson of apology.
I think it was that one, themashup I think they called it.

(02:01:01):
And he was talking about howearlier in his career he had traveled
to Africa to a remote tribeand he was preaching out there.
And all these Africans, theywere all converted Christians and
they didn't have one Bibleamongst them.
Whenever they would receive anew Bible, they would take all the
books out so they could allread the books individually instead
of one big book together.
And that they were sittingasking the most in depth theological

(02:01:24):
questions through a translator.
And they're just sitting onthis dirt floor taking notes on little
scraps of paper that they'rein that small like church in Africa
were more faithful andcommitted and devoted believers than
he had seen in most places inthe United States.
And I love that story becauseit's very, very true that, you know,
to say that the gospel hassomething to do with your skin color

(02:01:47):
ultimately in, in essence,eternally, like you have no grounds
to say that.
You can't say that at all.
And I think time willdemonstrate that that's not true.
I mean, you have persecutedChristians in China, you have persecuted
Christians all around theworld and no one talks about them.
But to say that it's all justbased on, it's all just based on
this, it's.

(02:02:08):
I think it's probably, it's aninsult to God.
You know, he can, he can raiseup sons wherever he wants.
And, and you better watch outbecause God hates pride.
Like, absolutely.
God is going to humbleprideful people, if not in this life.
Definitely the next, like agood verse.
I love First Corinthians wherePaul, Paul says, and I don't know

(02:02:30):
how these, these race realistsget around this verse.
You know, I mean, honestly,they probably just don't even read
their Bibles or if they do,they just twist it.
But Paul says specifically Godchose the foolish of this world to
shame the wise, show his powerand strength.
So that means God is pickinglike, yeah, you know, like all the
immigrants in this country.
Right.
He would pick that over theguy who is, I'm just going to use

(02:02:54):
a name.
He would, he would purposelypick him over a Joel Weapon like
guy who thinks that becausehe's white that he, his vote is worth
50 points and he's the best we got.
He would pick somebody likethis specifically to shame Joel Weapon,
to show his power and strengthand with, you know, wisdom.
And I'm just using JoelWebman's name not to try to make
about him, but to show like.

(02:03:14):
Like this is a reality.
God is going to humble you.
And he's doing this to showhis strength and his wisdom.
Even if that means that, youknow, this is the person that we
all just going to gang up onand mock and ridicule God.
You know, God, at the end ofthe day, he's going to have the last
laugh and his, his power, hismight is going to be demonstrated.
You know, we're supposed to,we're called to, to fear the Lord,

(02:03:35):
to really fear him.
And, and you know, thatdoesn't mean to cower in terror because
he's still a loving father,Father, but to recognize that his
judgments are perfect.
You know, when he, when hewants to wipe out a city, he wipes
it out.
And he has, you know, he's theLord of hosts, right?
Like Lord of hosts, like, haveangels, armies of angels.
And I think about one of thestories of David where there's the

(02:03:57):
angel of the Lord standingwith the sword and he's just like
striking down all these peoplewith a plague.
It's like, that's one angel.
That's one angel.
Just one, you know, what is,what does 12 legions of angels look
like?
Like.
And I think that that shoulddrive us to such intense humility
and fear of God and obedienceto live within the shelter of his

(02:04:20):
law and to not want to deviatefrom it from our own purposes.
And there we will findsecurity and blessedness and peace.
And that's the Christian life.
And you trust that God has gotyou and you don't have to do it all
in your own strength.
And that's the beauty of theChristian life that I've found, found
and that I'm very grateful for.
And that is a gift from God.
But, you know, that comes withfear of the Lord.

(02:04:42):
And there's no fear of theLord on their lips, I think is repeated
if a frame that's repeatedover and over again.
And oh, man, like, I, I wouldlove to see more of that.
And I don't, I don't know howthe cross fits into this, this manosphere
dissident right theology either.
If it's all about power, thenwhy did Jesus Die.

(02:05:02):
In your view, why do you needthe cross?
And why does Christ call youto die to yourself?
Right.
It's such a contradictionwhere you really wouldn't predict
that Jesus would, the son ofGod would die.
Like you would not predict it.
And there was a real, I guess,lack of a better word, deception
going on for the rulers ofthis world that Paul talks about.

(02:05:24):
He says if they knew it, theywouldn't have crucified him.
That's right.
They thought that this wasvictory because they were playing
a game of power, power.
But yet Christ dying got the victory.
He flipped it on their head.
And that's crucial.
I mean, that's, you know,again, look to the cross.
The cross is not a symbol of life.
You get on the cross to die to yourself.
You get life through death.

(02:05:45):
That's how Christ did it.
You know, there's this realstrong biblical motif of Christus
Victor.
Jesus, through his atonement,got the victory for us.
He is a true conquering kingthrough dying and giving himself
up for us.
And you know, you compare thatto the gospel, the Crusade boys online,
that's, you know, that'sdefinitely not their gospel.

(02:06:08):
Their gospel is let's just getin power because this is what it's
about.
You know, let's just get the victory.
Let's just get it, wield itand use it and bring in the kingdom
of God.
Christ got it by picking uphis cross and dying and giving, you
know, giving himself over tosinful men.
That's right.
That's right.
And I think the way that theyget around that is the intoxication
of power and by thecelebration of the Roman Empire.

(02:06:30):
I remember a couple years,I've talked about this a number of
times, but I remember it waslast year, 2023, 2024 maybe, where
there was like how, you know,your man is always thinking about
the Roman Empire.
And I thought that was really odd.
I mean, maybe guys think aboutthe Roman Empire all the time.
I know some guys are, are intoit, but I thought that was very odd.
Especially now considering youhave what the, what the Nazis were

(02:06:50):
actually trying to do was theywere trying to, to bring back their
own renewed version of theRoman Empire.
That was their very explicit aim.
And so now you have, you havethe Roman, the Roman Empire sort
of like being this reappraisraised kind of historically.
And so I think what the menactually doing is rather than like
being like Christ, they wantto be like Rome.
They want the power, they wantthe power of Rome and they don't

(02:07:13):
see it, they don't see thatthey are to be crucified by the powers
that be.
Not, they're not to become that.
And that's not to say that,you know, faithful men shouldn't
pursue positions of authorityand the state and in the marketplace,
we absolutely should.
But again, taking power foryour own righteousness and for your
own aims and not always givingthat power over to God in the way

(02:07:36):
that he describes power, theway that men are supposed to wield
it.
I don't think that, I don'tthink that that's, that's going to
end up with a good aim.
And that's, that's why I thinkwe're seeing this reinvigoration
of notions of Rome where it'slike the last great Western empire
before Christianity, right?
It's like, well, you know,maybe it wasn't all that great.
Maybe the Roman Empire, youcan read through the New Testament,
you can see incriminations ofeverything that the Roman Empire

(02:07:58):
was dreaming, doing allthroughout it.
And you know, but that's, youget intoxicated by power itself and
you put those blinders on andyou miss that.
As you say, we're called todie to self.
And it's ironic too, becauseif you're a race realist, being white
is not a catch all term.
So the Romans were notconsidered Anglos, a part of their

(02:08:19):
people, nor were the Greeks.
You know, in my father's day,you had the Italians and you had
the Irish and they didn't likeeach other.
That's right.
And they kept their own people.
White is not a catch all term.
So trying to use the Rome tobring in your white boy summer, it's
just a contradiction.
And it's like, you know,again, like you're not even believing
what you're actually preachingand you're not even accurate to true

(02:08:40):
historical thought as youpreach that you are.
And it's like, you know, justthe inconsistencies.
And how ironic this is, isthat again, like you're not, you're
not Roman.
I have more of a name to theRoman Empire.
You know, my father was bornin Naples.
Okay, yeah, not Roman.
But you know, the point isthat just because we're white doesn't

(02:09:00):
mean we belong to a certain category.
And these, these guys use itfor a catch all term where they can
take all the glory of, youknow, what the Germans did, what
the Romans did, what the Greek did.
And that's just anotherattempt of them trying to find, find
meaning in their own lives.
What they're Trying to do.
It's, you know, again, it allcomes full circle to what we talked
about, you know, this entire conversation.
Yes, absolutely.
You seek meaning now that youdidn't have in your young 20s, but

(02:09:23):
you're picking the wrong one.
Yep.
Well, brother, this has been awonderful conversation.
Thank you so much for thegenerosity of your time.
I know that you're a family man.
You got.
Got your kid running aroundback there, and you got your wife
as well.
So I appreciate you sittingdown with me this evening to talk
for a couple hours.
This has been.
This has been fantastic.
I didn't expect to talk aboutall this stuff, but I love all of
these subjects of conversation.
I'm very grateful for you.

(02:09:43):
Yeah, same, you know, gladthat you're doing well and, you know,
you know, you're gettingmarried soon, too, and generally
appreciate you like, you'reone of the faithful guys.
So, you know, you've been agood ally to have fighting against
all this craziness that we'veseen online, because there is some
good that comes online.
We get to meet true Christianslike you.
Absolutely.
And talk and converse.
So, again, we're not overcorrecting.

(02:10:03):
So generally appreciate you.
Yeah.
And I appreciate the blessingthat you've been in my life as well,
and our interaction and thegrowth of our friendship.
So I'm equally grateful foryour presence in my life.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Well, where would you like mento find out more about you and what
you.
You do?
Don't.
All right, can do.
Bye.
I die to myself.
Well, if you want to, you can.

(02:10:25):
I feel like such a hypocrite.
Well played, sir.
No, that's a.
Here we are talking about thestuff on the podcast.
Don't even display my name.
All right.
Exactly.
I'm just going to block this out.
Yeah, do like a.
Like, what are.
Like a face mask with, like,one of those, like, deep, you know,
robotic voices.
Yeah, exactly.
If you want, I'm on MethodMinistries podcast.

(02:10:46):
I'm on primarily on YouTube.
YouTube and social media.
I have Instagram and Twitterand also if you're in the area in
Paramus, New Jersey, that'd beawesome to meet you.
Come, you know.
You know, come to our church.
You want to be a part of our church?
You know, I'd absolutely love that.
We're trying to reach, youknow, New Jersey with, you know,
the Gospel for Jesus Christ.
So we're at the mission churchand Method Ministries is the YouTube
name for the podcast as well.

(02:11:07):
And, yeah, you can find all mylinks on there.
Great.
Thank you so much, Lucas.
I appreciate you and what you do.
My pleasure.
Thank you.

(02:11:38):
Sam.

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