MELISSA DOUGHERTY - Exposing Happy Lies: The Hidden Movement Infiltrating Every Church in America - The Will Spencer Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Foreign.

(00:21):
Hello and welcome to the WillSpencer Podcast.
This is a weekly interviewshow where I sit down and talk with
authors, thought leaders andinfluencers who help us understand
our changing world.
New episodes drop every Friday.
My guest.
Our guest this week is Melissa Dougherty.
Melissa is a Christianapologist best known for her YouTube
channel with almost 400,000 subscribers.
Her videos, which primarilycover New Age and new thought, have

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been viewed over 18 million times.
Melissa is highly regarded andconnected in the apologetics community.
She has had numerousinfluential guests on her YouTube
channel and is a frequentguest on YouTube videos and podcasts
of popular thinkers as well.
Melissa has a bachelor'sdegree in Religious Studies from
Southern Evangelical Seminary,where she's also pursuing her master's
degree in Religious studies.

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Melissa is married with twodaughters and lives in New Mexico.
Melissa Dougherty, welcome tothe Will Spencer Podcast.
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
I have your book here, HappyLies How a movement you've probably
never heard of shaped our selfobsessed world.
I really enjoyed reading thisbook and I've been looking forward
to talking with you about itbecause as my listeners know, I spent
20 years in the New Age, whichof course New age and New thought

(01:25):
are parallel worlds to eachother with some overlap.
So of course I've encountereda lot of these ideas, but in a different
context.
So getting to dive into themwas very educational, edifying.
Especially now coming from aChristian perspective.
Yeah, yeah, I think that was.
One of the things thatconfused me for a while is, you know,
if you read the book, Ithought I was in the New Age and

(01:45):
I kind of was.
I always say I'm an ex newthoughter with a little bit of ex
New Age sprinkled in.
But I've never met an ex NewAger or a New Ager who was not also
a new thoughter.
Yeah, yeah, the two, the twogo hand in hand.
I was aware of a lot of thosethings like manifesting and, you
know, that your thoughtscreate your reality kind of those
ideas.
I never, I was never reallysure how seriously I took them.

(02:08):
I had experienced thisexperiences that seemed to confirm
them, but I was always of the perspective.
Like I don't know myself wellenough to really visualize what I
want.
Yeah, the trust issues.
Right.
Universe.
Tell me what to do.
I. Yeah, I kind of think thateven some of that can seep over into
the Christian world where wewere afraid.

(02:29):
Yeah.
Or God, what should I do?
What should I wear?
What about this?
What about that?
And it's like a fear.
We're so afraid to Make a mistake.
So that's interesting thatthere's a parallel there, but, yeah,
for me, no, I knew what I wanted.
You would have been a terriblenew thoughter.
Oh, I would have been awful.
Are you kidding me?
But it's hard to escape.
Like Napoleon.
I almost said NapoleonDynamite, Napoleon Hill.

(02:50):
You know, it's hard to escapethe secret.
It's hard to escape all ofthose ideas anytime.
And even inside Christianityas well.
Yeah, it's the same thing.
It's a weird.
It's an interesting dancebecause, you know, I think that what
puts new thought in adifferent bracket, because I know
that there's otherspiritualities out there that have,

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you know, this idea that yourthoughts have power, maybe.
Right.
Like, they don't call itChrist consciousness.
They might call it Godconsciousness or whatever it is.
And some of it's more New Agey.
But what.
What really sets new thoughtapart is that it has the tone of
Christianity.
Like, it brings Jesus into it.
It claims to be Christian.
That's really where it getsreally messy, and that's where we

(03:36):
have a dog in the fight.
Because you have this othercounterfeit version of Christianity
that most Christians havenever even heard of, yet a lot are
falling for it because it's inthe name of Jesus and nobody's been
able to actually pin it down.
Some people might think, oh,it looks kind of progressive.
It looks kind of.
Is that New Age or.
Actually, that looks pretty biblical.

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And so it just kind of becomesthis ball of mess, this twine, really,
that people are trying to unravel.
That is so interesting,because from my experiences with
new thought, it was never.
I never interpreted it as aChristian thing.
It was always just kind ofencapsulated within this new age.
Your mind creates reality kindof idea.

(04:17):
We are all one, we are Godkind of thing.
I never saw it as Christian,but having read your book, and then
people telling me about NormanVincent Peale, who I'd never read,
like, oh, I can understand howthis has a history in the Christian
faith.
Yeah.
And some of it's very secular, too.
So if you go back into thehistory, like, I. I love talking
about the history of it, andthere's so much to learn.
Like, I'll read a dry, boring,new thought history book which exists

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but nobody knows about, andI'll read it.
And it just falls out of your brain.
Right.
It's like your brain's an SDcard, and so you have to kind of
go back and reread it.
And I just love learning aboutthe history.
But Religious science.
Religious Science is adenomination of New Thought.
And again, most people havenever even heard of that.
The largest one is probably Unity.

(05:01):
Most cities have a Unitycenter in their area.
You have some crossover withthe Transcendental Movement, so you
have Unitarian Universalistswho kind of cross over into some
of the beliefs, even thoughthey're a little separate.
It's kind of messy, but it canget very secular.
In Religious science isprobably, I would say, the most secular,
where you'll have people whokind of cling more to the beliefs,

(05:24):
but they won't necessarilytalk a whole lot about Jesus.
They'll talk about the powerwithin you.
They'll talk about, you know,Christ consciousness, maybe they'll.
They'll talk about mind overmatter, mind vibrations, frequencies,
love.
Love.
It's all about love.
You know, they can become very progressive.
But you're right, like, therecan be an element of it that is more

(05:48):
secular where you're notdragging Jesus into it.
But the origin of itdefinitely has Christian undertones.
The New Thought movement,people in New Thought, especially
Unity.
Unity probably has the mostChristian ease.
The most Christian ease.
And then Christian Science.
Most people have heard ofChristian Science.
That's a cult of New Thought.

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So working back from there, Iactually didn't deal with Christian
Science a lot in my book forthat reason, because the founder,
Mary Baker Eddy, she took alot of the beliefs of New Thought
and just made it cultish.
She had a lot of falling outwith the original founders.

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She was domineering, she wasmean, and basically took on that
kind of like that narcissisticrole where she had a lot of character
and people believed her.
And of course, she wrote her.
What was it?
Can't remember the name of it,but her Science of Health, I think
it's what it's called.
Yeah.

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Which is a really new Thought.
But the New Thought movement didn't.
It was.
What they were trying to dowas get away from any sort of dogma.
They were trying to get awayfrom the rules, if you will.
And so here comes this MaryBaker Eddie coming in like a wrecking
ball, and she's like, makingrules and, you know, making it.
Domineering and doing the opposite.

(07:10):
And so they just kind of.
They kind of split.
And so, yeah, so most peoplewould understand Christian Science.
And so when people see strangebeliefs like this, they're like,
oh, that, that, that.
Historically speaking, oh,it's Christian Science.
But I'm like, it's not justChristian Science.
Like, this is so much more.
This is a movement.
It's It's a philosophy.
It's a, it's interwoven intothe very fabric of American thought.

(07:34):
Like, it's, it's somethingthat we don't really have a name
for, but everybody hasexperienced, whether you're Christian
or an American or a European,because it is throughout the world.
And you have experienced itwhether you have a name for it or
not.
And I think you really hit onit right there.
People don't have a name for it.
And I think people have a namefor New Age as, as imprecise and

(07:56):
perhaps outdated as it is.
It's a bucket that people cankind of throw everything into.
New thought is like, what's,what's that like?
They don't, they don't knowhow to even apply the label properly
to what they're seeing.
Oh, yeah, it's been hidingbehind the leg of New Age.
That's kind of the way I put it.
It's like, oh, they can't seeme and I'm just going to hide behind
you.
Okay, New Age, you're going totake the blame.

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And I, the reason why this waslike, really personal for me is,
I mean, here I am, I'm a Christian.
I became a Christian at 16,and I grew up with new thought beliefs,
but I didn't know that.
And so I, I'm.
It seemed so mystical and, andesoteric and secret and hidden to

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me.
I'm like, oh, my word, look at this.
The.
The secret hidden gospels, thelost Gospels.
Look at all this missing knowledge.
It was so interesting to me.
And I think that mindset, bythe way, is why a lot of people get
into, like, conspiracies.
We, it's.
It's not sexy enough, right?
You just read the headline.
You're like, nope, I'm gonnamake that hundred times more complicated

(09:00):
by, you know, just putting inthis narrative that I have really
no proof for, but I'm gonnaget some pseudo proof for, and all
these people are gonna believe it.
Oh, yeah.
Loved that stuff.
Loved that stuff.
It was, it was something aboutthat that just gave me a rush.
It gave me this power dynamic.
It made me feel powerful.
I had this knowledge, I hadthis knowing.

(09:22):
Forget actually havingcritical thinking.
I was the most criticalthinker in the room.
You don't know any better.
So there was like this prideaspect, you know, And I do think
that there's an understandingof, hey, this is factually true,
objectively true.
It aligns with reality.
Here's how.
Versus, oh, I have this, thisknowledge of this thing that you

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have to be in the know to know about.
And I know better than you,therefore I can discard what you're
saying.
I think those are twodifferent perspectives.
And so that was the allure.
I had like a lust for thesupernatural, all the things.
Okay, so that's kind of thebackground there.
But becoming a Christian, Imean you have this overlap of.
I had this overlap.
I became a Christian and I gotvery annoyed maybe I still, I'm still

(10:11):
like leaky, reaching for aword to describe this in a succinct,
simple way without over explaining.
But I didn't like Christiansfor the most part.
Even when you were a Christian or.
Okay, they were actually partof the problem.
Oh, I made a whole video aboutthis where especially a female part
of that.
I mean, not to sound like, oh,poor innocent female, but no, that

(10:34):
was part of it.
I was just basically looked atlike I, are you serious?
Like you actually want tolearn the Bible?
Why are you asking me thisquestion about hell?
You know, just have morefaith, you know, and here, there's
the kids ministry right over there.
Like where.
Why are you here asking me?
Yeah, right.
It was just like this, thisattitude of you don't want to think
about your faith, do you?

(10:55):
Right.
Like there was this antiintellectual vein and it really turned
me off.
New thought is the opposite.
Not only is it embracing.
Right.
Embracing feminism, it'sembracing feminism.
It's very progressive.
So I kind of became like thisfeminist where I. I was not equal
to you, Will.

(11:15):
I was not equal to you.
No, no.
I was better than you.
I knew better.
I'm a female.
I have, I have more knowledgethan you.
You have the internal heartknowledge that men lack.
Yes.
Yeah.
And so there was just a lot ofpride in the language of humility
and it's me getting my poweror whatever.
So there's that vein andthere's a.
Historically speaking, there'sa strong feminist vein and early

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new thought literature, youknow, so that's part of it, but the
other part of it is, I mean, Iguess I was an apologist at the beginning.
I always had questions.
I was always annoying.
I was always wanting tounderstand and learn more and dig
deeper and get into the why of things.
And if I didn't understand it,I mean, I was the slow kid in class.
I was the slow kid in class.

(11:58):
I was in special ed.
I'm like, teacher.
I don't get it.
Can you explain this again?
I'm still that way and I justdon't care anymore.
I guess it's Explain it to meagain like I'm nine.
Hold on, back up.
What about this?
What about that?
Oh, I get it now.
Okay, okay, okay, okay, nowexplain this.
That's how I am.
Like, I.
It's just how, it's how I learn.
And I don't think they had thepatience for that.

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I really don't.
That's not the slow kid.
That's the, I mean, that's thesmart kid.
Slow kids don't write bookslike this.
Okay.
Sometimes I still didn't get it.
Okay, fair.
I'm still like that though.
Like, I was just talking to myfriend Elisa.
We were just talking about herand I was like, I don't get this.
You know, this, you know,there's this nude word that she's
saying.
I'm like, what is this?

(12:40):
Can you explain this?
I don't get it.
Where did this come from?
And she's been talking aboutit for like two years and I still
don't get it, right?
And she doesn't care.
Like, she's like, here.
Yeah, this is great.
Like, give me more.
So the fact that there wasthis, this aspect of Christianity
that I could find on theshelves at Barnes and Noble, even
some churches, even some otherChristians that seemed to embrace

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that, right?
They dared to think, in fact,they told you that your mind was
powerful and that your wordswere powerful.
You could create with your mind.
You could create with your words.
Oh, and Jesus really taught this.
Look, Jesus was like pro power.
He was trying to teach youabout the Christ within and that,
you know, the law ofattraction is real.
You know, he's trying to teachyou the secrets of the universe.

(13:22):
You know, these otherChristians over here, they don't
get it.
They're just closed minded bigots.
You know, they're probably racist.
You know, like all thesethings, they were just, they were,
they were the, the peasantChristians that didn't quite get
it.
And I'll not me, I was thesmart one, I was the intelligent
one.
I was the more spirituallyattuned Christian.
Um, and so that was kind ofthe way, the flavor of new thought,

(13:46):
that was the flavor.
I'm smarter, I'm wiser, I havemore knowledge than you.
I have more spiritual wisdombecause look, look at all this that
I have access to, that I've read.
And you're just sticking withthe book Bible.
That's boring.
You know, and so all theseteachings, I fell it, I fell for
it hook, line and sinker.

(14:06):
And the leaders that I follow,there were so many, a lot of them
are prosperity preachers.
Joel is one of them.
Joel Osteen has links to newthought, the new thought movement,
the beliefs, and so the thingsthat he would say.
And even new thoughtproponents, if you.
You read the book, so you knowthis, even new thought proponents
will watch Joel Osteen andsay, yeah, that guy's just waving

(14:30):
around a Bible, saying newthought things like, he is one of
us.
And they like what he's saying.
So it should tell you that anew thought, somebody who's die hard
new thought knows what newthought even is it, maybe they're
in unity, right?
Looks at Joel Osteen.
Right?
But then Christians,Christians who really understand,

(14:52):
you know, maybe churchhistory, the scriptures, look at
Jolstein, Jolene, and go, no,no, what's this?
What are we doing here?
Let's back up.
That should give us great pause.
But I loved him, Oprah.
There's Eckhart Tolle.
I read the Secret.
Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry.
I know.
There were so many.
Emmett Fox, he's like anancient new thought author.

(15:12):
Napoleon Hill, Norman VincentPeale and these.
And then all the peripheralpop culture teachers that went along
with that.
It was everywhere.
So even if nobody's heard ofthese people before, these teachings,
as far as speaking things inexistence, your mind has power to
create your reality.
Positive thinking is a power.

(15:34):
It's not just you making yourlife better.
There's a power to it.
The divine mind is all around us.
And if you have an energy toyou, you can actually change your
circumstances because of thatenergy, like, you're a powerful being.
And oh, by the way, look,look, look.
It's right here in the Bible.
Look, Matthew 7.
7.
You have, you know, Mark 14and all these other scriptures taken

(15:57):
out of context.
Yeah.
Here, look.
Shoving it in your facesaying, this is true Christianity.
Okay?
So, like, that's how it wasgiven to me.
So all that to say, to circleback to the beginning of my point
here, when I got out of it andI was told, oh, this is New Age,
right?
I'm like, oh, I'm in the New age.
And I started talking to exNew Agers.

(16:17):
They were not into any of that.
They were like into Reiki.
I'm like, what's that?
I'd never heard of Reiki before.
Let's see, what was the other one?
Oh, yoga.
I had no idea that yoga wouldhave been considered New Age.
I'm like, really?
Why?
Yoga's New Age.
Ascended masters there.
There was a whole section of,of the New Age where there Was like

(16:42):
maybe like inter dimensionalbeings, like mermaids and fairies,
you know, and they weren'tjust mermaids and fairies.
They were actually spiritualbeings in another dimension that
you talked to starseeds.
I had no idea.
I did dabble a little bit withsome of it.
Tarot cards.
I believed, I believed thatpeople had spiritual gifts.

(17:04):
I, I went to go see a tarotcard psychic a few times.
I messed around with crystals,you know, So, I mean, I dabbled in
some of it, but it was alwaysunder the understanding that, oh,
this is, this is scriptural.
So yeah, there is a definitivehistorical difference between the
two.
And when I realized that itwasn't even until recently.

(17:26):
So if people didn't quite getit, like the average Christian doesn't
quite understand, don't feeltoo bad.
I didn't, I was in thismovement and I didn't get it until
rather recently that there's avery big difference between the two.
You know what's so fun aboutthis is you're talking, it's like
we're on two sides of like aglass wall, like looking at the same

(17:47):
thing.
Cause I had the exact same experience.
But my way into the thingsthat you were exploring in New Thought
was through the Kabbalah.
And so you're talking aboutall this manifesting and all this
different stuff.
And that was what I got into.
That was my version of secret knowledge.
That was my version of thepower of the mind.
That's what that all is about.
And that's a whole other conversation.
But I'm so curious.
I'm kind of wondering, like,if we had both, I don't know, 15

(18:09):
years ago.
I don't know what the timelinefor your life was, but say we'll
wind it back 10 years or whenwe were both deep in it.
I wonder about theconversation we would have had then.
Oh, I would have loved talkingto you.
I would have been, oh my gosh,tell me more.
You know, and because for me,I was more like a pluralist.
It was always about what weall had in common.
And that it was, it was very,very just.

(18:36):
It was squishy.
There was no backbone to that.
It was, what do we have in common?
Love.
It was all about love, allabout peace, all about finding what
we had in common.
We all believed in God just indifferent ways.
So that was God's way of, youknow, making sure that we all eventually
ended up with him.
So I was a universalist.

(18:56):
I believed in that.
That aspect.
I would have looked at youlike, oh man, he's got.
He's so spiritual, you know,like, he's spiritual like me.
It's okay if you don't believein Jesus the way I believe in Jesus.
Tell me what you believe, though.
That's interesting.
I wasn't even close to a Christian.
I wasn't even close to aChristian, though.
Oh, that would have been notan issue for me.
I think I. I say that, but Iwould have tried to bring Jesus into

(19:19):
the conversation.
But what I would have done ismake a Jesus that was palatable to
you.
I would have made a Jesusthat's like, oh, no, no, no, no,
no.
You don't understand.
Remember, the otherChristians, they're the enemy.
They don't get it.
Look, look, let me tell you.
Jesus is way cooler than you think.
And I. I would have sold himto you in a way that would have probably

(19:42):
piqued your interest, butwould have been incorrect.
It would not have beenbiblical to.
It would not have been abiblical perspective.
It would have been a Jesus isyour best friend kind of perspective.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I, I.
And I would have loved that.
Because I lived in the SanFrancisco Bay area.
I didn't find.
I didn't know anyone whotalked about Jesus at all.

(20:02):
And so I had no realpreconceived notions, except for
the Christians were theterrible people who were probably
racist, you know, probablythat idea.
Right.
But Jesus, like, I knew aboutChrist consciousness.
I didn't know.
I didn't really read muchabout it, but yeah, that sounds okay.
Like, there's this thingcalled the Bible that they're trying
to shoehorn in.
I didn't know if it fit.
So that would have been a goodconversation from my end.
I would have had a lot ofquestions for you about that Jesus,

(20:24):
like, oh, yeah, that fits inreally well with what I believe,
too.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bullseye.
I would have been.
I didn't have a word for thiseither, but I would have been a very,
very progressive Christian,too, liberally speaking.
I would have been pro choice.
I would have been like, Ivoted for Obama.

(20:45):
Right.
For no other reason than, oh,my gosh, he's black.
You know, I did.
That's all I'm saying.
Yeah, yeah, right.
I would have been veryprogressive as a Christian, though,
too.
I would have looked at, Iguess, biblical Christianity.
Like, it was archaic.
And I just had this really.

(21:05):
This caricature of my.
In my mind of.
Remember, my first experiencewith Christians was like, y' all
are dumb.
That's what I thought.
Yeah.
You guys don't know whatyou're saying, do you?
I am unimpressed.
Unimpressed with your answers.
I.
If this is Christianity, like,I want more.
And I was so hungry.
And that's the problem is Iwas so hungry to know more, teach

(21:29):
me, give me more of this God.
I actually had really good intentions.
I wanted to learn.
And so that's what got methough, is the only thing that fed
me were the people willing togive me some sort of sustenance.
So it was.
I didn't want to be associatedwith that.
Those are the bad guys.
I, I wanted to be looked at.
I wanted to, I didn't.

(21:49):
I wanted to give everybody aJesus that wasn't like that.
Right.
And so I just kind ofpendulumed and so.
And there's a whole thingbehind that.
Actually, I have a counter.
Not a counter question.
A, A question for you.
Tell me briefly about the Kabbalah.
I'm actually really interestedto know more about that.
It's come up a few times and Idon't know that much about it.
Yeah.
So the Kabbalah is just as asystem is meant to teach you about

(22:15):
the architecture of creation.
Like this is how God builtreality progressively in stages.
It's deeply mystical, veryesoteric, very, very old.
And so this is how God built reality.
And you are also God and youcan claim God's power once you understand
the architecture of creation,to manifest your will as well.
And so the training programthat I took for the Kabbalah, it

(22:39):
was a correspondence coursethrough an online mystery school.
I would receive four lettersin the MA mail for printed lessons
in the mail every month that Iwould then study.
And the way that you learn theKabbalah through this mystery school
is through studying tarot cards.
So not fortune telling tools.
They're symbolic pictures sothat you can learn the Kabbalah symbolically.
And so that was the program Igot two years into a 15 year program.

(23:00):
What are the roots of it?
Is it.
It's Jewish, right?
Like Jewish mysticism.
It's.
It.
There's a Christian Kabbalahas well.
I personally think Kabbalah isolder than that.
I think this school rooteditself in Egypt in Hermes Trismegistus,
you know, the Thrice, which islike the guy that all East Western
occultism and esotericism came from.
I think what might havehappened is it hitched a ride out

(23:22):
with the Hebrews during the Exodus.
That's my speculation.
Interesting.
That's interesting to know about.
Yeah, it sounds, that soundslike a mess.
That sounds like that soundslike theosophy.
It sounds like New Age theosophy.
Some Gnosticism.
So the Kabbalahs, pretty old, right?
Like, it's going back.
Okay.

(23:42):
Yeah.
I mean, I would say.
I would say in the West,Kabbalah, and in the East, Advaita,
Vedanta, Hinduism.
Yeah, those are.
Those are two expressions ofthe exact same thing, which is Luciferianism,
Satanism.
That's what.
That's what I think it is.
I don't think it'sspecifically Jewish in that way.
Got it.
Yeah.
The only other time I'veunderstood the context of it is in

(24:03):
a Jewish context.
Yeah.
Because there are stillschools that are teaching it.
But to actually study theteachings of the Kabbalah, they're
clearly much older and fromanother source.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Maybe we'll have to do apiggyback interview.
I'll have you back on my channel.
Yeah.
Because I'm like, man, tellme, teach me.
Because there's.
Yeah.
There's, like, overlap, but Idon't know what that is.

(24:25):
And I always love learning about.
You froze.
Yeah.
Like occultic.
This is our.
This is our thing.
Right.
It's like you get.
You get sucked up into it oryou've been deceived by it, and all
of a sudden there's a lot ofthese other peripheral occult beliefs
that we want to know about andlearn about.
I love weird spiritualities.
Kind of like, as a historybuff, though, too, I think it just

(24:45):
makes us wiser for witnessing,for the gospel.
Well, we share something incommon, which was a spiritual hunger.
And so you went to this worldof new thought out of an expression
of spiritual hunger, and youkept asking questions, and so did
I.
And we had two different pathsthat now lead here, which is pretty
cool.
So.
But what was it that led youout of new thought?

(25:06):
What was that?
What was the thing thatstarted to crack the shell?
Yeah.
This is so funny, because the.
The things that God has usedto get me out of deception are just
not what you'd think.
I didn't have, like, somechurch revival.
Right.
When I heard the gospel, itwas like a drunk dude at a party.
It was.
He just got saved.

(25:27):
And he was still kind of, youknow, backsliding a little bit, but
he was there telling thegospel, let me tell you.
And I believed him.
And then this time around, itwas two Jehovah's Witnesses.
I actually put them in theacknowledgments of my book because
God used them.
And I even wrote when theybroke up with me, inevitably they
broke up with me because ofcourse I'm not going to.
Yeah, I was like, I'm notgoing to become a Jada.
I'm sorry.

(25:48):
And I knew, I knew it wascoming to an end.
I got her some gerber daisiesand I wrote her a letter.
And I hope she still has it.
But I remember saying in thatletter, like, you will never know
how much God actually used you.
And it was for.
That was more for me.
But this is what that story isbecause I had my first daughter.

(26:09):
When was she born?
2010.
And so this was around 2011.
She's getting older.
And you know, when you havekids, you start getting really reflective.
And I still, I'm still likethis with my girls, just reflecting
all the time about what'sgoing on in the culture and preparing
them.
And so one thing about Newthought to know is that it's, it

(26:35):
will say that it will teachrather the, the teachings in general
make you think like you havethis higher knowledge.
But because you're alwaystrying to keep a positive mindset,
because you're always tryingto be on a high vibration, you don't
really have room to thinkcritically because critical thinking

(26:57):
is kind of seen as negative thinking.
And so that wall got broken alittle bit after I had my daughter,
because I was, I, I had it allup in my head.
I was gonna manifest how I wasgonna have her.
I, I did everything right,let's just put it that way.
I did everything right.
I had the right energy, I hadthe right thoughts, I spoke the right
things.

(27:17):
And all of it fell apart.
Nothing happened.
And I was, I was flooredbecause I'm like you.
I remember you mentioning somethings worked for you.
Like you, you practiced thesethings and you saw results and so
did I.
And so I expected this to happen.
And it was like a really bigwake up call.
So that was like the firsttime that I'm like, okay, maybe I
need to think a little bitmore about this.

(27:39):
So I just kind of leaned alittle bit more into that.
And then I started thinking,okay, I have more questions.
I don't really quiteunderstand this.
I've been told this, I've beenreading about this, but I still don't
quite get the problem.
Like, for example, with hell,I had such a problem, no matter.

(27:59):
I wasn't satisfied even as auniversalist, because then I still
had the problem of justice.
I didn't like.
It was.
It's like the opposite, right?
I wasn't happy either way.
I, I didn't like the idea ofhell Because God's just throwing
people in hell.
I didn't understand.
What about people who've neverheard of Jesus?
You and that face of theChristian who's never actually thought

(28:21):
about their faith.
Yeah.
You know why?
It's because God is all love.
Of course he's going to accepteverybody into heaven.
You know, once people knowthat God is real, they're going to.
They're going to beoverwhelmed by that love, and they're
going to find it's garbage.
So.
So I had this problem, though,because then I played the movie forward,
and I'm like, well, I haveanother problem then that's kind

(28:44):
of worse than that.
And that's.
If something horrible happens,if somebody does something objectively
atrocious, they don't have topay for it.
They don't.
There's no justice here, is there?
No.
Like, I. I would see terriblethings happening, which you're not
supposed to do, by the way.
You're supposed to only.
Yeah, you're only.
Only supposed to have positivethings in your life.
It just got me thinking, okay,Like, I'm.

(29:05):
I'm starting to kind of lean alittle bit more into.
Into it.
But I was not sold yet.
I was absolutely.
Still very hard in my beliefs.
I.
And then two Jehovah'sWitnesses show up at my door, and
I'm like, oh, they're gonnateach me the Bible.
They're gonna.
They're gonna tell me allthese things, like, what's in here?
And I had no idea.
I thought if you said you werea Christian, then you are good to

(29:25):
go, right?
Like, you believe in God inyour own way, we're all good.
But that's not the case.
Around the fourth visit, Irealized y' all believe in some weird
things.
What's happening here?
And I started researching.
I felt God, I felt this urgeto go research this religion.

(29:47):
And it was in researchingtheir religion first I discovered,
oh, dang, they're a cult.
And by ex Jehovah's Witnesseswho have left this religion.
And they're telling you aboutmind control.
Like, what is mind control?
What is a cult?
Right?
And I'm like, wow, this is interesting.
And.
But something startedhappening because they're Christians

(30:08):
now, and they sounded reallysmart, and they sounded really smart,
but they're.
They're telling their storyhow they got out of Jehovah's Witnesses,
you know, how they got out ofthe cult, out of their religion.
And they're talking aboutJesus and they're talking about the
Bible and they're talkingabout Hell, the Trinity, they're
talking about core doctrinesthat I was very squishy on.

(30:30):
And what ended up happening islike, oh, man.
Okay, well, if.
If what they're saying istrue, then what I believe may not
be true.
Right?
And so that dance started dancing.
Okay?
And I think, really, thatstarted happening.
And so there's more softening,I guess, going on.
Like, as time goes on, it'slike a clay.

(30:51):
Like, it's.
It's pretty hard, but thenthere's water being added to it,
and so slowly it's getting softened.
And I think what really justwiped the whole thing away and I'm
like, okay, oh, no, I need torepent, was when I came across an
online forum of a Christiankind of arguing with a New Ager.
But it wasn't arguing.

(31:12):
It was like, Charlie Kirk,critical thinking.
Oh, really?
What do you mean by that?
You know, kind of.
Kind of arguing.
And I was so compelled becauseI'd never seen that.
This is.
This is right around the timeI got introduced to, like, Frank
Turek.
Right away, I didn't like himat first, though, because, remember,
I came from, like, I thoughtk. Love was negative.
Okay?

(31:32):
So if you hear the tone ofvoice of Frank Turek, you're like,
oh, he's mean.
Like, he could say that a lot nicer.
And so it took me a while toeven warm up to him, but it was like,
the first time I heard or Isaw, like, intellectual debate, I
guess.
I didn't know that's reallywhat it was at the time, but I.
He wasn't being mean.
He wasn't being snarky.
He wasn't being dismissive.

(31:53):
He was welcoming.
This is the feel I got for it.
I don't quite understandexactly what it was.
I do remember one aspect, ofcourse, but that.
That caught my attention.
Okay, so I'm reading thethread, and this is before Facebook.
No, this was after Facebook.
But this is when online forumswere still a thing, and the New Ager

(32:13):
was basically saying, like,yeah, this is something that God
teaches, you know, that we canall be God.
Like, this is.
This is the secret that'sbeing kept from you.
Or something like that.
He's going on.
But what caught my eye waswhen the Christian was like, ye will
be as God.
I was like, man, that soundslike a slimy serpent to me.
And I'm like, oh, it does.

(32:36):
I was like, it does sound like Satan.
Oh, my word.
And it just blew my mind.
Blew my mind.
I.
That pulled the rug out fromme, spiritually speaking.
And that was it.

(35:30):
My guard was down, and Ileaned into it.
I'm like, okay, okay, I cansee it now.
The scales are off.
Let's.
Let's dig in more here.
Because before, I wouldn't gointo these.
Okay.
So, like, you have a. Iwouldn't go into online spaces that
were critical of my things.
That was too close to home.
But if you wanted to tell mewhy Mormonism was wrong, or Jehovah's
Witnesses, yes, let's talkabout that.

(35:52):
But again, I had a problem,and I was just stifling it.
I was hiding it.
I wasn't ready.
Right.
I wasn't ready.
That was an open door.
I'm like, okay, I'm ready now.
All right, give me the hard truth.
I. I want the hard truth.
Tell me all the things.
Oh, no.
And I repented.
And that was the.
That was 2011.

(36:12):
And I've.
I've been leaning in ever since.
Yeah.
I love how it was the question of.
Of justice, which is kind ofthe other side of the problem of
evil.
Right.
The problem of justice islike, well, why is that?
How can there be no cosmicjustice if we're all God and someone
does something really terrible?
Is there no punishment for this?
Do they just get away with itin the afterlife?
And you get to be as much Godas I am?

(36:33):
Like, why should I botherbeing a good person if we're all
just God?
Right?
It grates once that littlesand gets in the oyster.
Right?
You're exactly right.
And I thought, okay, well, mybeliefs say, well, you ought to be
good.
Right?
There's an oughtness, Isuppose, the philosophical way, if
you're going to be Thomisticabout it.

(36:56):
That's not the way I wouldhave put it.
But there was always thishigher good of love.
Right.
And that's kind of the flavorin which it's given.
And it seemed.
And it sound.
Sounded loving, but I. I just.
I didn't.
Again, I didn't think aboutthe inconsistencies there.
I'm like, okay, well, ifthat's what it is, we can't.

(37:17):
We can't actually live thatout, though.
We can't even do that.
In other words, it looked goodon paper.
It looked good on paper.
It's like socialism, right?
It's like, oh, man, everybodyshould just be giving to each other.
Everybody should just be this.
Should.
Should just be that.
But they don't take into account.
And here's where they get it wrong.

(37:38):
Because a new thought, theidea is that humans are inherently
good, that we're Bent towards goodness.
That's the mistake.
That's the mistake.
You.
You can't.
That was a paradigm shift for me.
I mean, I accepted the gospeland I understood it, and I believed
Jesus.
I accepted it or accepted him.

(37:59):
I accepted the gospel.
And there was such aninnocence there.
There was no growth, like,real growth, growth.
From that point, it was like apause button.
Right?
And then from there, it waslike, boom.
Right?
It's like, oh, that's why.
That's important, that doctrine.
That's why God's like this.
Like, you learn about theattributes of God, and then.

(38:21):
And then to make it better,there was this whole other side of
Christianity that I'd neverknown before.
Like, I'm going to seminary.
Going to Southern Evangelical Seminary.
Oh, my word.
That I. I don't get most of my classes.
And I love it because it's so deep.
I'm a man.
There are.
There's a deep, rich intellectin the Christian faith.

(38:44):
Yeah.
There you guys are.
Where were you, like, 10 years ago?
Okay.
And so Frank, right, First,first, first tap right on.
On apologetics.
And then Sean McDowell andJosh McDowell and Lee Strobel's always
been around, but, I mean, he'skind of.
You know, it was before theInternet was a thing, and all of
a sudden, it was just thiswhole new world opened for me.

(39:06):
I'm like, oh, man, this is my jam.
People love answering questions.
Nobody's turning me away.
And there was this, this.
This element of being lookingat your mind and even your doubts.
Right.
Elisa deals a lot withprogressive Christianity and.
And how people are afraid to doubt.
And I'm like, no, test that.
Like, test what you're believing.

(39:26):
Is it true?
And that was so weird in thebeginning for everybody because they
were.
They were, like, afraid to think.
And I'm like, no, there's an.
There's an element of.
Of caution when it comes to,like, overthinking.
Right.
Where your knowledge can puff up.
Yeah.
But the scripture says to loveGod with all your heart and mind,

(39:47):
so how are we to obey thatwithout having some essence of critical
thinking?
And I think it was C.S.
lewis.
C.S.
lewis said that we ought tostudy good philosophy because bad
philosophy exists.
And there was just deep, deepteachings about God and.

(40:09):
And natural law.
I'd never known what naturallaw was.
Like, how you can prove Godexists by not quoting a scripture.
Like, just by using.
Using your logic, using yourmind, reasoning.
But also the.
The.
The human spirit.
Like, you're bringing inconsciousness, you're bringing in
all these elements that areInherently Christian.
And you, you reason from that aspect.

(40:31):
It's, it's.
It was exactly what I needed.
And I, I love it.
Still to this day, I, I reallylean into that.
What I love about everythingthat you're saying is that you're
reflecting back thoughts thatI've had during my own journey.
Like, like, I can remembersaying things like this to, to myself.
Like, for me, it was theproblem of evil.
Like, it was.
It was a child sex trafficking.

(40:52):
Like, wait, if, if karma, ifkarma is real, you're gonna tell
me it was when I learned about that?
Like, are you gonna tell thatkid that that's their karma, that
they did something in a pastlife to deserve this?
And I could.
Are you gonna tell, like,Jeffrey Epstein, like, yeah, it was
your karma to be this guy.
Like, you're gonna look thosepeople in the eye and say that anyone,
like, they would change the subject.
They'd say, like, love and light.
Love and light.

(41:13):
It's like, well, don't just golove and light.
I couldn't find anyone.
And so going through this, Ialso had the same beliefs like you.
Christianity is anti intellectual.
And then I discover reformedtheology, and I've got giant books
of it up on the shelf.
And the thing is, it all hangs together.
And like you said, it canwithstand internal criticism.
New age and new thought do notpermit internal criticism because

(41:33):
there's nowhere to stand tocriticize them.
It.
Spot on.
Yeah.
There's.
There's so much there as well,because the idea is, is that the
truth factor.
Right.
Another one of my heroes andmentors is Greg Kokel, and there
is an element of thinkingabout truth that I think we take

(41:57):
for granted.
Right.
We're just.
Oh, of course.
Objective truth.
Why would anybody thinkthere's anything other than objective
truth?
Yeah, relativism.
I mean, that, that dude, that,that guy thinks he's a cat.
Okay.
And our, and our.
Our or thinks he's a woman.
Yeah, man thinks he's a woman.
Who's a cat.
Maybe, you know, a hobbit too.
Who knows?

(42:17):
But it's like you have thiselement now of, of truth being completely
distorted and people areflocking to it, and it's spiritual
warfare.
Right.
Like, we're having this element.
If you have, if you have awhole group of people that are just
flocking to a lie, chances arethe father of lies is behind it.
And I think that there's,there's wisdom there to, to understand

(42:39):
that if we can understandwhat's true about reality, we Will
greatly understand God.
You know, it's somethingthat's interesting about the karma
thing.
Did you see.
Speaking of Greg Koukl, didyou see his interview with diary
of a CEO on that YouTubechannel or any parts of it?
No.
Oh, it's interesting.
You should watch it.
He.

(43:00):
I think that Gret.
I don't know.
I'm biased.
I think he should have hadmore time to talk, but.
But there was one dude at the table.
What was his name?
Doctor.
Dr. K. I'd never heard of himbefore, but, ooh, is he sprightly.
He is an extrovert.
He would absolutely exhaust me.
But he was a Hindu.
But he was also spiritual.

(43:22):
That was interesting.
But he was at the table withAlex o'.
Connor.
Do you know who that is?
So it was Alex O', Connor,Greg, and Dr. K. And yeah.
So Dr. K. I love people whoare honest about what they believe,
and they stay consistent inthat belief.
And he was talking about karma.

(43:43):
And Alex, who is very, very just.
He's a force to be reckoned with.
I mean, he's on it.
He's very aligned intellectually.
And so he's asking about thisproblem of evil that was coming up.
It was the topic.
And this is my memory.
I'm probably.
I'm a little fuzzy on that.

(44:04):
But I do remember that Dr. Kwas bringing up karma, the issue
of karma, that he has to dealwith people who are sick or dying.
And he straight up.
And I'm paraphrasing, but hestraight up backed up what you just
said.
That there's a.
There's a.
You cannot.
Okay?
You can't help somebodybecause you'll mess up their karma

(44:29):
and just go to.
India and you'll see thatmanifesting everywhere.
Yeah.
Yes.
And that's their answer.
Because if you believe that,the way that he explained it was
probably the best way I'veever heard it, honestly.
And I think that that'sactually a good lesson to understand
what it is they believe and why.
I'm like, oh, I get it.
I understand why they wouldn't.
It's still garbage.
But now I get why.

(44:51):
Because it's like, oh, inanother life.
Life, you're trying to workoff that karma, and this is your
payment for your past sins.
So if I help you, I'm hurtingyou, because I.
You then cannot.
You're gonna.
You're gonna have to deal withthis in another lifetime.
Because then I went and helpedyou and messed up your karma and

(45:11):
then therefore messed up mine.
I was like, oh, my.
I hate that that makes sense.
But I hate that he believesthis like, he thinks it's true.
And so, yeah, it's really interesting.
I had a very twisted view ofkarma, where if you didn't believe
in Jesus or if you didn'tbelieve in God, then you would just
be reincarnated.
Maybe until you did believehim somehow, some way.

(45:32):
It was real squishy.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
I think once I firstencountered Christianity, I kind
of.
Once I was transitioning, Igot baptized, and I was starting
to leave these thoughts behindand really subject them to scrutiny.
I think there was a period of time.
I can't say for how long,maybe a couple months, where I was
like, okay, all thesereligions are equal paths up the
mountain, but onlyChristianity gets you the rest of
the way.
I think I probably believethat for a very, very brief moment

(45:53):
in time.
And then I was like, wait a minute.
All these other religions arereally, really wrong.
That's really.
And so.
And that was a.
That was a big moment for me.
I'll never forget when thatkind of clicked over, because I was
the guy who.
Who literally chased down theworld's religions.
I've been to 30 countriesaround the world.
India, China, I've been toSouth America, wanting to understand
these world religions.
And so I was.

(46:13):
I was a universalist like you all.
The perennial.
A perennial Perennialist.
Carl Tyre, you know, who you.
Who you mentioned.
I love him.
Yeah.
He has a section in Game ofGods where he talks about Perennial
man at the end.
I got it right there.
Oh, you got it right there.
Yeah.
Great.
There it is, holding up my microphone.
That's a good place to put it, actually.
And so he talks aboutPerennial man towards the end of

(46:33):
that book.
And I'm reading this in thepodcast with him.
Like, Carl, you're describingbasically, the guy who was me.
And so to set all that asidewas a big moment.
It did make sense in adamnable sort of way, but it can't
produce righteousness.
And you travel around theworld and you see that.
India is a great example.
Yeah.

(46:54):
Yeah.
It sounds like you have so much.
You had so much moreexperience than I did as far as,
like, going and actually doingthings right.
Like, I read books and Iwatched people, and you actually
went on, like, a trip aroundthe world.
But there's like a.
Where was it you werementioning, Carl?
Oh, the perennial.

(47:15):
The perennialism.
I'd never even heard of thatterm, for example.
And that's even a term that'scoming up more and more lately because
of people like Richard Rohr.
Right.
You have perennial wisdom.
He's so annoying because he'slike the Pope of progressive Christianity,
but.
Yeah, but he's not.
He says he's Catholic, buthe's not.
Says that he's Christian, buthe's not.

(47:36):
He's a progressive, but whatdoes that mean?
He also has a lot of perennial wisdom.
He has this, he has that.
He's like pinning down a cloudand it's just really annoying.
And so learning about whatthat is, like that line of thinking,
that line of belief, it's sointeresting to see.
Oh yeah, I held onto that too.
And you didn't realize it.
So there's still things thatI'm learning about what I used to

(48:00):
believe in and what kind ofthings I dabbled in.
Because it's not just thisbucket or that bucket.
Like New Age, for example, alot of New Age can be, you know,
aligned with theosophy.
But does anybody really knowwhat Theosophy is?
Like, the average Christianprobably doesn't.
Yes, exactly.
I mean, New Age essentially istheosophy, but commercialized and

(48:23):
commoditized and then youthrow a bunch of psychedelic drugs
at it and congratulations, youhave a New Age dude.
That's like the formula.
That's a mathematical,spiritual formula.
The oste plus New Age, maybe acrystal ball with some psychedelics
equals New Age, basically.
Yeah, yeah, it's very external.
That's the way that Carl put it.
New Thought is more internal,New Age is more external.

(48:47):
But I think what makes NewThought really interesting is that
you have sort of titans ofindustry like Dale Carnegie and Napoleon
Hill, you know, and WallaceWattles and all.
You have these put togetherprofessional men that will openly
profess these ideas.
It's not, you know, it's notTommy with the man bun and the yoga
mat that it's a very different perspective.

(49:08):
Yeah, and I'm glad you broughtthat up because that goes into the,
the American thread that Ibrought up before.
Because again, this is amovement like it started somewhere
and I, I trace that history.
I have a whole chapter on that.
And then terms, I define termsbecause you have like the spiritual
aspect of it, but you alsohave, you also have very, you know,

(49:33):
big people that had a lot ofinfluence because that's what New
Age or New Thought is.
Is that it?
It has more influence than recognition.
And you had people who had big recognition.
Napoleon Hill of people stillread his book.
It's still a bestseller.
Yeah, Dale Carnegie.
People aren't happy about DaleCarnegie being in the New Thought
thread, but he is you know,and those are just two.

(49:55):
There's so many more, butthose are the two that most people
recognize who spearheaded,laid the foundation for the self
help movement.
And that's the idea, is thatpart of it was, you can do this on
your own.
You are enough.
You don't need God.
You are God.
Here's.
Here's how.

(50:16):
And then the thing aboutNapoleon Hill, for example, I call
this the it works trap,because new thought as a historical
movement is very pragmatic, right?
If it works well, then it mustbe good and it must be true.
It must be true and it must be good.
Those two things are very.
And that's actually.
And you.
I learned this at SouthernEvangelical Seminary, by the way,

(50:38):
is that.
That's a theory of truth.
There's theories of truth out there.
I'm like, what, what is this?
We mostly, as Christiansascribe to what's called this, the.
The correspondence theory oftruth, which is reality is what corresponds.
Truth is what corresponds to reality.
That's what's what truth is.
But then you have other peoplewho have.

(50:58):
Who see truth differently.
Truth is from within yourtrue, authentic self, which is a
big new thought word.
But that's also in otherspiritualities, is where you're going
to hear truth, your intuitionfrom within.
Very.
Ralph Aldo Emerson, who was atranscendentalist, he was a New thought
father as well.
And that within that truth within.

(51:19):
Well, that's where you heartruth, right?
And so you have these elementssprinkled into these books that sold
to millions.
And I have a whole video, bythe way, on Napoleon Hill, specifically
about what a fraud he was andhis connections to new Thought.
But that's a whole other thing.
But he does say some thingsthat are very good.

(51:39):
He.
He says things in his bookthat I'm like, man, that's great
advice.
People should do that.
Right?
Okay.
It works.
It's true.
But then you start believingthat stuff.
Yeah, well, what else.
What else you got?
This is really working for me.
In fact, I became rich becauseof this.
What else you got?
Well, here's the divine mind garbage.
I'm going to feed you nowabout how, you know, I've had these

(52:02):
conversations with these otherbeings, and they gave me wisdom.
These were my mastermind.
This is my mastermind class.
Here's how you do this.
Because this is all part ofthis divine mind that we're all a
part of, and you have accessto it, too.
Oh, that's great.
Thank you, Mr. Hill.
And so it's like, because thisworked, we Adopt these other things

(52:22):
that are pseudo, right?
Like a pseudo spiritualitythat are false.
And we do this all the time.
It's not just with spirituality.
Somebody says that, you know,a healing, a sign, wonder or miracle.
Well, it worked.
Wow.
They healed me.
Wow.
I have to devote my life tothem now.
Thank you, Mr. Costi Hinn, orno Benny Hinn.

(52:44):
Thank you, Mr. Benny Hinn, forhealing me.
You must be a true prophet.
Therefore, everything you say,I'm gonna believe.
Yeah, that's the it works trap.
And so testing is very important.
Knowing how to test whatyou're experiencing in a critical
lens is very important.
We do it with, like, facecreams, right?
Like, hey, this face cream gotrid of my wrinkles.

(53:05):
What else you got?
Well, here.
Here is the.
This body spray that willalign your chakras, right?
And you're like, oh, yay, giveit to me.
And so, yeah, it's like thiswhole thing is kind of packaged together.
That is ultimately thesimplest way that I could put what
new thought does.
This is how we start believingin new thought ideas.
We read a book that we thinkis secular, or we go to, like, an

(53:28):
AA group, which is so trickybecause AA has helped so many people.
Alcoholics Anonymous.
But the big book, Book ofAlcoholics Anonymous, that book,
I think it was written orinspired by Emmett Fox, which is
a new thought author.
I have to go back and check that.
I think, yeah, I have to goback and check that.

(53:49):
But there's new thoughtinfluence there.
Like, it's really trickybecause what do you do if you've
gone to AA and you're like, ithealed me.
Like, it helped me.
This was the only thing thathelped me overcome my alcoholism.
So I think that those aredifficult conversations to have,
and I think that's one reasonwhy it's difficult to spot and point

(54:10):
out.
Yes.
And this is showing up.
I came from the manosphere.
I was in that world for a while.
And you see this with a lot ofyoung men as well, who like, oh,
yeah, this influencer helpedget me out of my passivity and get
my life on track.
Yeah, Andrew Pace.
Yeah, exactly.
That's exactly right.
And so it's like, yeah, itworked, but.
But what is attached?

(54:30):
What's the caboose ofworldview of beliefs that is attached
to everything that you just said?
And guys will say, but he sayssome good things.
Well, yeah, but can youseparate the good things from the
other things?
Are you willing to carve outthat one little piece of advice,
or is there someplace else youcan Go to get that same piece of
advice.
And then you have to worryabout, well, what's good advice and

(54:52):
what's bad advice?
What's your discernment meter?
Because Scripture is veryclear that we ought to properly judge.
And that's all judgment is, ishaving good discernment of knowing
right from wrong and truthfrom false.
But that requires firstknowing what truth is.
And I'm sure I could listen toAndrew Tate and be like, oh, okay,

(55:15):
that's, that's good.
The rest is garbage.
But why do I.
Why do I know that?
Right?
So, yeah, and I think wepractice that with what we do.
Because I, I. I don't knowabout you, but I read a lot of books
that I don't agree with.
And you have to know that it's a.
It would be a cheap shot tosay everything in here is terrible,
just like it would be a cheapshot to say all of it's good.

(55:38):
It's like you kind of.
You have to have this fairlens on.
I appreciate you saying that,because one of the parts of my backstory
is ayahuasca.
Perhaps you've heard of that.
Is that a drug?
Yeah, it's like a.
It's.
Yeah, the, the.
The mystical vine.
Yeah.
That you go down to SouthAmerica and drink.
Oh, yes.
I know exactly what that is.

(55:58):
Okay.
Yes.
So I have.
I've done 15 ayahuascaceremonies before I became a Christian.
And so I've got a tattoo on my arm.
You can kind of see it.
That's an ayahuasca vine.
And so, yeah, I don't know ifyou can see that.
I can, yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm getting ready to write a.
It's sort of a research paper,a white paper about it, just helping
people explain.

(56:18):
Explain to them from aChristian worldview, like, what's
actually going on,demystifying it in a way.
I've got a shelf full of booksjust out of frame up there that are
all about ayahuasca fromwithin, like, pro ayahuasca literature.
So I'm preparing to readthrough all of that so I can accurately
reflect their views.
Not just my personalexperience, but, like, what's actually
written.
And so, yeah, that's goodadvice to be discerning.

(56:39):
Like.
Yeah, that's actually a goodobservation about humans or about
relationships.
But consider.
Consider the source, you might say.
Yeah, and I think it's very.
That's what I did for my book.
I didn't want to.
Yeah, that was probably myfavorite part, was the research,
because not only did I.
It was like, I think ofapologetics like a spiritual journalism,

(57:01):
like a Christian journalist.
I'm going out.
I really want to know what youbelieve and why you believe it.
But it was boots on the groundresearch of going into the spaces,
unity centers, UnitarianUniversalist, religious science,
going to any place that I knewthat somebody, progressive churches,
people that believed in thesebeliefs and asked them questions,

(57:25):
why do you believe that?
What is that?
And it was so fun.
These people were so nice.
I did not, I did not have onehostile conversation.
Not one.
Every one of them was willingto talk, and I disagreed with them.
But, I mean, yeah, but I thinkthat there's an element of wisdom
in, in getting their perspective.
If I'm gonna say, this is whatNew Thought is, I had better have

(57:50):
source material.
I love source material.
And all I'm looking on myshelf, all the books that I used,
you know, resources, sourcesthat I quoted, footnotes, if you
will, in my book that I citedwere from New thought sources, original
new thought sources.
And so there has to.
And even then, even then, I'mstill learning.

(58:11):
But what's difficult about NewThought is they love moving the goalposts.
And you read my book, so youknow about one conversation I had
with a reverend, and I'mpretty sure it's in the progressive.
Yeah, man.
It's in the progressive.
Dr. Oh, my.
That, that, that was half theexperience, though.
They were very kind, but a lotof them were very inconsistent and

(58:32):
they could care less.
They don't care.
And that drives me nuts.
That's what I was saying before.
I'm like, Dr. K, thank you.
Thank you for having abackbone and at least telling people
exactly what you believe, evenif it's hard, because then I, then
I can actually wrestle with that.
I can think about it.
But if you're over here beingall squishy, if you're over here

(58:52):
being all floofy and fluffyand just kind of changing the goalposts
because I.
How am I supposed to actuallysteel, man, your argument?
How can I say that this issomething good and ought to be believed
if you can't even give me adefinition of what you believe and
then stick with it?
It.
Yeah.
So I think that's afrustration that makes it difficult

(59:14):
for me in this camp.
I'm sure you've had the samefrustration, because I do genuinely
want to understand.
And I, I sometimes I getcriticized for maybe not coming out
with my gloves off.
I guess I don't like that.
I, I think people Maybe peoplethat have heard my story, again,

(59:35):
they neglect that.
I know what that looks like.
Right.
And sometimes you need that.
But to fall into this legalismditch, I don't think is any better.
I think that there's a way togo about and be very bold and very
firm in your beliefs withouthardening your heart and without
becoming a bully.
And part of that is, again,I'm gonna say Charlie Kirk.

(59:57):
I mean, going out and havingconversations with people eye to
eye.
Because for me personally, onereason why I like that is because
it's really hard to forgetthat somebody's made in the image
of God.
When you're staring at them inthe eye and you're having a conversation
and you see their children, right?
You see that they.
Oh, they have a life and theyhave feelings.
And, man, tell me your story.
What's going on here?
Like, why do you believe this?

(01:00:18):
What about that?
What about this?
And there is a leaning intothat that I noticed in these conversations
when they're like, oh, oh,you're a Christian.
Like, yeah, well, tell me more.
Right?
Like, I wasn't in there tofight with them.
I. I was in there to challengethem in our conversation, but I.

(01:00:38):
I was in there with a goal toproperly understand them, because
that's the right thing to do,you know, So, I mean, we.
There's a lot to go off on that.
But, yeah, I think there'ssomething to be said for source material.
Respecting the source materialand then demolishing it, like in
a biblical way, and thenhaving a good conversation about

(01:00:58):
it.
Yeah.
The intention is to win theman, not the argument.
But you bring up something Iwas really curious about, and I'm
grateful that you brought upthe story of how you chose to approach
the book.
Cause reading it, I was awarethat there are lots of different
ways that you could haveapproached the subject, that you
could have come at it as apersonal narrative.
So many different.

(01:01:19):
But you chose, it seemed tome, to approach it in a very scholarly,
a personable, scholarly way,rich on sources, history, endnotes,
citations, and, of course, inperson, interviews.
It was a pretty massive effortto write this book, even though it's
not a massive effort to read,which is its own effort.

(01:01:39):
What was behind the decisionto approach it that way?
Because I can imagine, maybeyou would be able to tell me, are
there Christian scholarlybooks that have been written on this
topic?
I would imagine not.
Yeah, no.
No, there's not.
And that was.
This was not easy to writethis book.
This was the hardest thingI've ever Done.

(01:02:00):
Because nobody's ever writtenabout it.
And that's why people like Carl.
Yeah, Carl.
That man is Christianity'sbest kept secret.
I swear, he is a wealthy.
Amen.
Yeah, man.
Like, can we get Carl Ty cribto do a West Huff, please?
Because he is brilliant.
He is one of the smartestpeople I know.

(01:02:22):
And he was such a help for mein understanding Swedenborg, new
thought in general, thetranscendentalist stuff.
Like, he's just brilliant.
And so I had my resources andCarl was so readily available because
that's what he is.
He's like our dad.
Like, he's always wanting tohelp, right?
He's always wanting to give.

(01:02:42):
It's what he does.
Was.
But I mean, even then, hewasn't an expert.
Even he was like, learningfrom me.
And I'm like, oh, oh, that'shumbling, you know, and.
But that's what we do.
We learn.
But no, there was nothing written.
Marcia Montenegro, she was oneof the only other people that knew
even about people like Swedenborg.
Right.
Really smart about it.

(01:03:03):
And so I had limited resourcesof people who actually knew what
they were talking about.
And then, and then compilingthe information was very difficult.
Very difficult.
Because like, imagine walkinginto a room filled with books, right?
Like your living room, all ofit's filled with books.

(01:03:23):
I'm not talking about just onthe walls talking about.
It's piled from top to bottomwith books.
Your job is to go through themand gather as much information as
you can to generalize theoverall umbrella topic of all of
these books.
The.
The books are on one topic.
That's how it felt writing this.
And I didn't enjoy it.

(01:03:44):
I'll be honest.
I did not enjoy that part.
It was overwhelming.
But I'm saying a lot of stuff.
But the reason why.
Here's the reason why.
The reason why I approachedthe book from that topic is because
I love truth, I love facts,and I like putting things in a way

(01:04:07):
where if you're reading it,you had better know this is exactly
what they believe.
Because I have aresponsibility to.
There's gonna be a lot ofpeople reading this book, watching
my videos.
There's a responsibility tosteward that in a way where I'm not
just writing this book towrite a book.

(01:04:28):
Book, like a cash grab.
That was the last thing on my mind.
I. I didn't.
I felt like I needed to writethis book because I had been writing
it for like 16 years and itneeded to be written because nobody's
written on it.
I have a personal Backstorywith it.
I have personal experiencewith it and I was very frustrated
when I realized what this was.

(01:04:51):
And it couldn't be a video.
I'm like, oh, yeah, kids, Igotta write a book.
And so there was aresponsibility with it to make sure
that I am handling this in away that if somebody were reading
it, if a critic were readingit, okay, and they're going across

(01:05:11):
a page and they're like,that's not what they believe.
Oh, yeah.
Well, let's, let's look at this.
Let's see.
Number one, there's threesources that are new thought sources
that say this is what you believe.
It's like Mormons, right?
You have to like convert aMormon to Mormonism first before
you can get anywhere.
Because they're like, that'snot what we believe.
But it's like, yeah, this iswhat you're.
This is right here.

(01:05:32):
I'm looking on your websitelike, you know what I mean?
It's like there's a denialthere sometimes, or maybe they don't
know, but I better do myhomework because I'm going to look
really stupid.
We the church, right?
Like, I'm representing Christ,I'm representing the gospel.
And I want to be fair, I wantto be thorough.

(01:05:53):
I see it as a responsibilityto make sure that what I'm doing
is thoroughly researched be inorder to make sure that that truth
is being upheld.
And so that if criticismsarise on what I wrote, it's because
they disagree.
Like, I remember there wasthis one guy.

(01:06:13):
Oh, I can't remember his name,but he has a whole YouTube channel
dedicated to Swedenborg.
And he read the little sectionthat I, I still need to go back and
actually watch the video.
I watched a little part of it, it.
But he was saying, oh, no, no,Swedenborg doesn't deny the Trinity.
I'm like, what do you mean by Trinity?
That's the first thing thatcomes to my mind because I know what

(01:06:36):
Christians believe.
And if you're saying thatSwedenborg didn't deny the Trinity,
you and I need to define ourterms, right?
So that's what the first thingthat comes to my mind is, that I've
done enough research to know,oh, he doesn't understand what we
believe.
For me to say that.
And I just think that, I don'tknow, it's a long answer, but I think
that there's a.

(01:06:57):
You're gonna look really dumbif you make a video or if you write
a book and you haven't doneyour homework.
And people call you out on it,you better have your receipts.
And I've seen that happen toomany times.
And I have seen people makevideos about topics that they think
they know what they're talkingabout and they can get slammed, and

(01:07:18):
rightfully so, because theydidn't do their homework.
And so I think it's in thatspirit of integrity, of responsibility,
of stewardship, that I went ashard as I did, but also made it readable.
I really.
I really appreciate that.
I appreciate hearing all that.
I appreciate that answer.
And honestly, like, it cameacross in reading the book, because

(01:07:41):
I've watched.
I've watched your videos, andI was.
And I start reading the book,and it's so scholarly, but still
accessible.
Like, it's not dense.
It's not like reading atheological tome.
But it's very clear very earlyon the book is going in a hard research,
historical direction.
And to compare the voice ofthe book in a way to your videos

(01:08:01):
or the approach of the work,the book feels completely solid.
Like, there's no room to kindof argue in here because you clearly
know your stuff.
And I'm reading it like, thiscannot have been easy to write, you
know, like, I could feel that.
But.
But in a good way.
In.
In.
In.
In reading it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
I think part of it is myseminary, because they make you dot

(01:08:23):
your I's and cross your T's.
Yeah.
And I. I mean, it's a.
It's a richly robust seminaryin that regard, and there's a lot
expected of you when it comesto writing your papers.
And so that was that, youknow, and.
But yeah, it was.
It was very difficult becauseif you're writing a chapter, like,
I have a whole chapter on,like, the Seeker movement, Right.

(01:08:43):
Or like the Word of Faithmovement, I have a chapter about
that.
You have people who you cansend it to to give you feedback.
Right.
For a critical analysis, whichyou should do.
We should do that.
We should send out our stuff.
Right.
When we write a book, and it'slike, hey, don't be my friend.
Don't be my friend.

(01:09:04):
Read this with a critical eye.
You know, progressive Christianity.
That's easy.
Send it to Elisa.
Send it to my friend JasonJimenez, Dr. Robert Bowman, for my
Word of Faith chapter.
Some of my seminaryprofessors, you know, and the chapter
10 for the church Growthmovement was the hardest.
There.
There is no scholarly researchon that.

(01:09:26):
Where do I go with that?
And that was.
There was a whole thing withthat chapter that I had to deal with.
And.
And you Know, make corrections.
And it was tough.
And the Word of Faith chapterstill, I'm still learning about this
because Dr.
Bowman, he would agree with mein some places because I'm trying

(01:09:47):
to draw that line back from,hey, why does the Word of Faith movement
sound so much like new thought?
Oh, because there's, like,historical lines there.
Right.
The question is not.
No historian will say that newthought is not in the word of faith
movement.
The question is, the bigquestion mark is how did it get there?

(01:10:07):
So I attempt to answer that,and I go back to E.W.
kenyon.
But Dr.
Bowman, he would probablysharpen my understanding on this.
Even though the book's out, hewould say that it's more through
people like John G. Lake.
And I think he said Simpson.
I actually interviewed himabout this.
I'm like, give me somepushback track.

(01:10:27):
Right.
And I think that should be ourposture is.
Is grow me, help me learn.
Like, I. Yeah, it's reallyannoying that my book's out and I
can add more to it.
You know, the things thatyou're saying, I can actually make
it sharper with what you're saying.
But teach me learn.
Help me learn from you.
And I think that should be theposture of it.
So that's what's frustratingabout it, is that no matter, it's

(01:10:50):
terrifying writing a book,because when you put it out, it's
out there forever.
It's not like an Internet postwhere you can do like, oh, let me
just edit this.
No, like, you can't do that.
And so there's just a greatdeal of responsibility that goes
along with it.
And I appreciate thecommitment to precision.
One of the things I try andtell people, like, if you're going
to come at very substantialmovements or individuals or ideas,

(01:11:13):
you have to take one good shotwith high precision, clean.
It cannot be sloppy becauseyou will create more trouble than
it's worth.
And the commitment toprecision is so difficult.
It demands so much to thinkthrough precisely little, fine step
by fine step.
But once it's done, andperhaps you can answer this, how

(01:11:34):
does it feel to have set outwhat you achieved to do, to achieve
what you set out to do?
I don't know how to answer that.
Part of it's anticlimactic,and part of it is just relief.
Yeah.
Because like I said, I thinkthat my intentions for writing the
book need to be very clear.

(01:11:56):
Cause I didn't do this for thewrong reasons.
Let's just put it that way.
But you know what it is?
Okay, My friend Greg.
Greg Again, over here on thewall, nobody can see this, but I
have three little pieces of paper.
Cause I'm a 90s kid.
We still use this thing calledpaper to write notes.
And Greg, I asked him for helpon my relativism chapter and oh my.

(01:12:19):
He took that like it was his job.
Like, we had conversations, hesent me stuff like, oh, that was
his thing for a while.
And he sent me this list ofwriting advice because Greg is one
of the sharpest writers I'veever met.
And I printed it out.
And then next to that, I havesomething I wrote about a quote from
William Taft that says, writeso that you're right.

(01:12:43):
So that you.
You Wait, hold on.
Don't write so that you can be understood.
Write so that you can't be misunderstood.
So you can't be misunderstood.
Amen.
Something like that.
Yeah, I see it every.
I see it every day.
Obviously haven't memorized it yet.
And then my friend Holly Pivk,who's also an author, keep it simple,
keep it interesting, right?
So I have that.
But his whole list is right there.
So that should give you somebackground to how much he's written

(01:13:07):
and how much he knows about this.
Because the guy is just a wordsmith.
He's really good.
But he says this because hedoesn't like writing either.
And he says, I don't likewriting, I like being done writing.
And I think that's what it is,is that, okay, it's done.
But then you gotta do likemarketing, right?
You gotta go and promote yourbook, which isn't too hard.

(01:13:29):
That's actually really funbecause then you get to talk about
it.
And I always joke like, I justdid a speaking event and I told everybody
it was about new thought, of course.
And I told everybody.
I'm like, ah, my publisherprobably doesn't like it when I say
this.
I don't really care, but Idon't like talking about my book.
But I love talking about thetopic, right?
And I think that's.

(01:13:50):
I think it's that feeling of,okay, I've actually been writing
this book not being able totalk about the topic for so long,
like over a year, and justkind of seeing how little this is
being talked about.
Nobody's talking about newthought, nobody's written about it.
And so to, to them, they'relike, oh, this is a great idea, right?

(01:14:12):
To me, I'm like, I just wantto talk about it.
So I think there's a relieffrom being able to just read all
the books, make videos aboutit, do the interviews.
But it's also slightlyanticlimactic because, I don't know,
I think that I'm just glad tobe done.
But I'm also.

(01:14:33):
I. I think I. I think that itwas within the writing where it's
like, oh, finally finishedthis chapter.
I would, like, reward myself.
I'd go get, like, a pizza and chocolate.
You know, that was my.
Okay.
Right.
Those moments.
So I think, because I had thatinterspersed in writing when I was
totally done, I think I wasmore afraid than anything than relieved

(01:14:57):
because I'm like, oh, is thisgonna land?
Is this gonna be okay?
Like, are people gonna get it?
What's this gonna be like?
Did I make a mistake?
Right.
And so that's where my mindwent, because I had that high standard
of, Of, Of.
Of, I guess, the stewardshipof what we were talking about before.
And here we are, it'll be ayear in January.

(01:15:19):
And I'm like, okay, yeah.
So I think that that's.
I'm still kind of working myway up there to the.
Oh, how does this feel?
It feels great.
Great.
It does feel good.
It feels good talking about it.
But, yeah, I don't think.
I don't.
I don't think I'll ever write again.
Have you had to hit me?
You know, have you had newthought people or Christians who

(01:15:42):
have been wrapped up in new thought?
Maybe unbeknownst to them,have they come to you and been like,
wow, thank you for breakingall that down.
I had no idea.
Or thank you for illuminatingideas that I was carrying that, like,
I didn't realize were warpingmy faith.
Many, many of them.
I think that there's a levelof respect I have for the Christian

(01:16:07):
who believes in a lot of newthought beliefs and did what I did
right, where they just kind ofleaned into it.
And I always say, you know, ifthere's somebody out there that's
read it or maybe they'relistening to one of these interviews,
that maybe you're mad at me,maybe you don't like this.
Maybe this is making you feelvery uncomfortable.
I just want to reach throughthe camera and just give you a big

(01:16:28):
hug.
I'm not even going to sit hereand try to convince you.
It's hard.
It's hard to have your beliefs challenged.
But that's why I think truthshould be above all, truth and courage.
If you have courage, you willseek truth.
And that means becoming veryuncomfortable and looking at maybe
another side that challengesyour entire worldview.

(01:16:51):
You know, like my.
My first love in ministry wasCults, Right.
Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.
I think it was them.
They taught me the price theyhave to pay to leave that religion
is not any small price.
They lose everything, everything.
Their families if they leavetheir religion.
But they did.

(01:17:12):
A lot of them did.
And so when we can pivot our beliefs.
Right.
It's not as earth shatteringas leaving a cult.
But speaking of cults, I mean,if you're.
It's easier to keep somebodyout of a cult than get them out of
a cult, right?
Yeah.

(01:17:32):
So.
Yeah.
So I think this book is atestament to that, to trying to get
Christians to understand whatthis is, to avoid them going down
that path.
But I also think it's a littlebit easier for people who might have
adopted some of these beliefs.
There might be pride.
Pride might be the biggest issue.
Maybe.
Maybe it's flat out disagreement.

(01:17:53):
Well, why.
Why do you disagree?
Where did I go wrong?
Tell me what's going on here.
Like, where.
Where am I wrong at?
Right.
Where do you think?
You disagree.
And a lot of it devolves into this.
The argument of it's notloving, maybe.
Right.
Like, that's too judgmentalfor me.

(01:18:14):
And it's like, oh, man, I'vebeen there.
I have so been there.
And I usually find that theretwo things that come from that perspective.
And the last chapter I wrotewas about a reverend who had this
same problem.
I find that there's fear andpain, sometimes paranoia.
Fear, pain and paranoia areusually sometimes at the core of

(01:18:38):
why you are acting that way.
It's not because it's true.
It's not.
That's not truth doing that to you.
It's one of these three.
Why are you not able to handlethe truth about hell, for example?
Why is that?
Why is that hard for you?
Because God is love.
Well, but why if God is love?

(01:18:58):
It's like getting them tothink I love handing people back
their brains because then theyhave to actually wrestle with that.
And I hope I put a stone intheir shoe, but I'm also gonna, like,
hold their hand on the.
On the way.
You know, it's like, I'm gonnalove you through it, but I'm not
gonna.
I am not going to sugarcoatthis for you.
This is what this is.
I will love you through it.

(01:19:18):
I will give you a hug.
But, yeah, this is true.
Right.
You know, there's a boldnessthere that we need to have, but yeah,
that woman at the end, not togive it away or anything, was a new
thought.
Reverend.
And she understood what I was saying.
Everybody I talked to, by theway, I gave the gospel to, I asked
questions in a way that Ibelieve that they would understand.

(01:19:40):
I think that's very wise to do.
If you understand how aJehovah's Witness might hear the
gospel differently, thenchanging the way you're talking is
actually wisdom, right?
So for her, I, For a lot ofthem, you know, I'd ask them many
different questions, but onething I would talk about or ask about
is the serpent's lie inGenesis 3.
You know, the thing that gotme, the thing that really got me.

(01:20:02):
And that's how theconversation got started.
But we were going down thegospel path.
It was a differentconversation from all the others
that I had.
And it's like she, she lookedat me.
It's like she, she knew.
She understood.
She understood exactly what Iwas saying.
And I asked her point blank,like, would you believe this?

(01:20:23):
Like, do you believe this?
And she just was so honestwith me.
She's like, I won't believe that.
Yeah.
And it was a adamant.
I am digging my heels in.
I know it's true, but I won'tbelieve it because that means that
I have to give up my power.
That means I have to face thepain that forms my beliefs.

(01:20:46):
And I think that is so hard toget through to.
So the only thing I can do isif somebody's reading this book or
if, you know, they aresomebody that maybe they're a new
thought wherever they are.
The challenge I would putforth is, is that really worth it?
Like, if we're talking abouteternity, are you gonna dig your

(01:21:07):
heels in now and risk beingwith the God who created you?
That, that, that peace thatyou are craving, that lie, that happy
little lie that you are livingin is going to continue to always
be a lie and will always fall short.
It will always leave you empty.
So that's my point, though.
It's like leaning into that truth.
Truth and knowing who Godtruly is.

(01:21:30):
That's where you're going tofind your freedom from that core
of that paranoia, pain and fear.
Maybe.
Can you walk the listeners?
Certainly I have many of myown stories of this.
Can you walk the listenersthrough a moment where you might
have encountered that withinyourself, where it's like, oh, wow,
this is bumping up against pride.
This is bumping up against fear.

(01:21:51):
But my commitment tocourageous pursuit of truth is calling
me through it.
Can you, can you walk usthrough one of those moments, baby?
Oh, there's a lot of those.
There's A lot of those.
I mean, the first one, ofcourse, that comes to mind is the
initial story I told you aboutthe J. Dubs coming to my door and

(01:22:11):
me just being a stubborn, realstubborn, just like, oh, I don't
wanna.
How can you say something badabout Oprah?
She's amazing, you know, and,you know, just kind of digging my
heels in.
And then it was just a processafter that of learning that I was
wrong a lot.
And I think that's where Ijust have this position of I've been

(01:22:35):
wrong so long, so many timesthat I just kind of shut up and listen
sometimes, you know, Unless Iknow what I'm talking about.
Right.
We stay in our lane.
We.
We stay in our lane, and youfact check it.
You.
You.
You put it in there.
But there's been just.
Oh, gosh, lots of little micromoments of that.
So many of them.

(01:22:55):
And I got on YouTube maybefive years ago, and again, it's.
It's fun, but it's alsoterrifying because, again, there's
a.
There's a responsibility for that.
People listen to you and theybelieve you and they trust you.
And so if there's a mistakemade, it's like, ugh, I have to make
a video apologizing, I gotsomething wrong.

(01:23:15):
Or, you know, I made a postabout this, and I got to make this
right.
I got to do this.
This.
You know, that's why Iactually interviewed Dr.
Bowman.
That was terrible.
It wasn't actually.
It's not.
Not as terrible as this otherincident I'm going to tell you about.
But it was.
I had him read the chapter.
He gave me his feedback, Imade the changes, and then he read

(01:23:39):
it again, and he's like, yeah,you got so many things right.
This I would disagree with you on.
I'm like, oh, okay, let's getyou on my channel.
And then you can call me outon it.
Right.
To hash this out for thepeople who've read the book.
Right.
It wasn't fun to do, but itneeded to be done.
It's very uncomfortable whenpeople might make an accusation.

(01:24:00):
And everybody's always makingan accusation, especially when you're
online.
So you have to be very mindful.
You have to surround yourselfwith people who feel comfortable
telling you that you messed up.
You have to.
You.
Especially if you're online.
I'll name one right now who'sso ready to be that person.
There's so many of them.
I have Elisa, Natasha.

(01:24:22):
But Alan.
Alan Parr.
He a few times has messagedme, and he's like, sister, you might
want to, you know, reconsiderthis, blah, blah, blah, blah, or
whatever it is.
And he gives really goodreasons, like good points why it's
that way or oh, like thatactually sounded really prideful
or whatever it is.
I'm like, oh, oh, I thinkyou're right.

(01:24:45):
My bad.
Like, you're right.
You know what?
Let me go correct that.
And it hurts.
It hurts.
But you know, the worst onewas the chapter 10 situation.
Okay, so the chapter 10 aboutthe seeker sensitive movement, the
model.
A lot of people don't realizethat the origin.

(01:25:08):
One of them is RobertSchuller, who's a new thought pastor,
who basically heralded the newthought or the, the seeker sensitive
model.
And I'm like, why is nobodytalking about this?
This is like an unbiblical origin.
But we also need to have avery fair conversation about.
We can't just cheap shot thewhole movement.
Right, right.

(01:25:28):
There was nuance there thatwas needed.
That was tough because myfirst draft of that chapter, the
book was ready to go, man.
It was ready to go.
It was, it was.
Everything was ready.
But then I got late feedback,short story, late feedback from somebody
who's pro seeker.
And I am.
I respect them deeply.

(01:25:48):
Right.
And though we would disagreewith the harm.
Right.
Like we would disagree withcertain elements of it, it was very
difficult to go through that,that process.
I'm leaving out a lot rightnow, but let me just say, whenever
you're.
You think you're done withyour book and all of a sudden your

(01:26:09):
editor's giving you a call at9 o' clock at night saying, we have
a problem.
We might need to do this andthat and this with this feedback
that we've gotten.
And by the way, my editor was phenomenal.
He was so good.
He was exactly what I needed.
He was so supportive and so,so just so good in that.

(01:26:29):
But that was rough because I'mlike, what is the right thing to
do?
I have like 72 hours to figurethis out because they need it right
away.
And so there's an elementthere of, oh, gosh, there's just
so many issues, like so manytimes, but there's an element there
of growth in each one of thosemoments, knowing when to stand firm,

(01:26:49):
when to kind of like take astep back and think, oh, am I, am
I in wrong here?
I need to figure this outinstead of just digging your heels
in every single time unlessyou know for a fact I can back this
up.
Right.
And so I think we need to knowwhen we need to bend when we need
to, you know, take correctionand be wise in that if your.

(01:27:11):
Goal is, you know, to promotetruth and to stand on truth and that
feedback comes in and itrattles you on the foundation, like,
yeah, I should probably dosomething about that.
Otherwise you're underminingyour own goal.
Yes.
And here I am.
I mean, dude, I'm into apologetics.
I love hearing from peoplethat disagree with me.
Yeah.
But it doesn't mean I considerevery disagreement.

(01:27:33):
This one was different though,because I'm, I'm, I'm reading what,
you know, he's putting forthand I'm like, oh, okay.
I think that, I think he has agood point here.
Okay.
I need to reconsider that.
That this I'm not budging on.
I think he's wrong here.
He's kind of projecting.
I don't agree.
Or whatever it is.
Right.
Whatever that might be.
But there was deep respect,deep love for each other the whole

(01:27:55):
time.
And it was difficult, though.
That was difficult.
And I think growth just hurts.
Growth hurts.
And so, yeah.
And I think that wounds from afriend can be trusted.
And I don't, I don't thinkthat it was trying anything else,
but that was the hardest.
That was the hardest chapterto even get peer reviewed.

(01:28:18):
So the fact that there wassomebody even giving me insight,
I kind of saw as, as God, youknow, in his providence putting somebody
in that was going to give me afresh eyes from a perspective that
I hadn't yet gotten.
And honestly, it made thechapter a lot better.

(01:28:41):
And I got to expand on it in athree hour deep dive on Robert Schuller
on my channel.
And it was just, in hindsight,definitely the right thing to do.
Definitely made that chapterso much stronger.
And I think, I think whenpeople read it, they are going to
really grab it and hear it andunderstand it because I got that

(01:29:05):
feedback.
I agree.
As a reader of the book whodidn't know much about it going in
besides that it was about thenew thought.
I was wondering, as I'mreading this book, where is this
going to land ultimately?
Because I know the climax ofthe book or the back pages of the
book is where a lot of reallygood stuff tends to be or should.
And so as I'm reading it and Idiscover that it starts going towards

(01:29:26):
the seeker sensitive movement.
It's like, I really like thatthat was the target kind of there
at the end.
Maybe target's not the rightword, but it was like it was building
to make that case.
And I felt that chapter And Iknow very little about the seeker
sensitive movement.
So I don't have a backgroundin evangelicalism.
I'm aware of it and Iunderstand the ideas behind it and

(01:29:46):
certainly I've experienced theconsequences of it as many have.
But I felt that that chapterlanded so clean and it really needed
to because as you point out inthe book, there are so many people
who are faithful believers whocame in as a result of the seeker
sensitive movement.
Maybe they're in seekersensitive churches.
And you can't paint the entirething with one brush like you have.

(01:30:07):
You have to land it clean.
Yeah, man.
Thank you, thank you.
I appreciate that.
That's, that's the thing islike whenever you're working on a
project and you're this closeto it.
Yeah.
And when you put it out thereand people give you feedback, you're
like, oh, this did land okay.
That was actually, it'sinteresting that you had that experience

(01:30:28):
that it kind of led up, up andended with the seeker, the, the seeker
chapter.
Because you're right, thatwas, that was actually unintentional.
But I ended purposely on thatchapter for a different reason because
it was the one that was not asblack and white as the rest.

(01:30:52):
And so I'm like, okay, if, ifwe have, if people understand who
Norman Vincent Beale is, ifthey understand what this is, if
they understand what that is,they might understand my, my argument
here and why this is an issue,but also why doesn't mean we, we
have to throw it all out the door.
And the nuance was tough.
Like my, my, my chapter on theself help movement, there was no

(01:31:13):
real nuance needed for likethe progressive chapter, for example.
But self help, I mean, some ofit's good.
There are some Christian selfhelp books, right.
Like, we don't need to be over here.
Affirmations, right.
Like affirmations or like newthought prayers and you know, but
there's people who, it mightbe semantics.
There's using affirmations tobuild somebody up or something.

(01:31:34):
But it's not really affirmations.
Like, it's more likeencouragement and here's the difference.
And you know, positivethinking, you can't, oh, you can't
demonize just thinking positive.
Right.
There are actual good studies, right.
About the fact that if youchange the way you're thinking, like
I'm a 15 year old, right.
They, they err on the side ofjust being this Eeyore with a cloud

(01:31:54):
above their head.
Right.
They're just, they're, they'rekind of Moody.
And so if there was a way forher to be like, okay, you're having
a negative thought right nowand it's going downhill.
Let's pull that back.
Right?
Like, what are some.
What are some ways to do thatthat are practical, that are biblical,
aligned with reality, alignedwith truth?
And yeah, the nuance wasdefinitely needed.

(01:32:16):
So that's interesting thatthat was your perspective, though,
and I'm glad for that.
Well, I think the.
The way that it wascommunicated was even in the process
of reading the book, I waslike, okay, it's one thing to talk
about new thought as thismovement that's out there in the
world that is.
That is and should be a targetof evangelism.
It entirely to say, this isyour personal experience coming out

(01:32:37):
of that.
Those are two.
A couple different.
Those are a couple differentbooks right there.
But at the end, it was like,how is this relevant to Christians
today, even who don't sharenew thought beliefs that they're
aware of or at all?
Like, how does this impact thechurch today right now in a big way?
And so it landed right there.
And it's like, as you'd builtup this case very carefully over

(01:32:57):
the preceding chapters, soyou'd establish the momentum, you'd
establish the credibility, youknow, when you'd establish, like,
this is the case.
And now, bang, here we are inthe center of evangelicalism in many
ways, and it had to land there.
It's like, oh, this is abigger deal than I realized because
it involves so many churchesacross the country and so many believers.

(01:33:17):
It made it very relevant in apowerful way.
And even then, there was morethat I could have said.
I think that my best friend,she read it and she's like, my only
complaint is that it's not.
Not longer, you know, and I'mlike, tell me about it.
It's the.
The books in the room story.
I was telling you before.
There's so much more to know.
The transcendental movement.

(01:33:38):
Yeah, this whole living yourtruth stuff, I mean, chapter six
is a identity crisis.
I'm like, that's just what'sgoing on now.
Wait, wait.
Just wait.
The devil's got something elseup, up a sleeve.
Gender is going to be onething, but you know what I mean?
It's like who you are on theinside is truly who you are.
All this stuff.
Stuff.
I mean, there's just so manythings, so many more books I. I could

(01:34:01):
have bored people with or thatI could have quoted.
And it's just so.
Yeah, there's so much More to it.
But I think that this issufficient for the average Lee person
to understand what this is,why it is, where it is, how it's
affecting them.
It's not going anywhere.
Has a gnostic vein to it.
What is Gnosticism?
You know, it's like, it'sstill here.

(01:34:22):
I. I want to make it amainstream work.
Yeah.
It's like.
And you planted the booksquarely down in the middle of a
wide open field and said,here, you can build on this.
Yeah.
I'm like, what?
I was shocked when.
I'm like, why?
How has nobody talked about this?
But I think that shows thedeception to it is that it's.
It's kind of hidden.
And so I think that it wasright for the picking.

(01:34:43):
I think that if.
If I never.
If say I did.
I said, tomorrow I'm not doingYouTube anymore.
I'm.
I'm taking a break from ministry.
And definitely I would besatisfied that this book would.
Would be carried by otherpeople much smarter than me.
Right.
That they'll expand on this topic.
That.
Okay, I gave you somethingthat you guys can start with.

(01:35:04):
Pick it apart, I don't care,but just expand on it.
That's kind of my hope for it,you know?
Yep, yep.
That's.
That's.
That's what I was saying to mywife as I was reading it.
Like, I was like, this is not.
This is not the book that Iexpected this to be, but it's clear
that you were trying to do something.
I. I think you succeeded it.
I.
And I really do mean that.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
We'll have to have you on mychannel, though, because I want to

(01:35:25):
hear more about your story andyour background and what's going
on over here with WillSpencer, because it's very interesting
in this conversation.
I know that your background isin New Age, but I didn't know how
deep that rabbit hole went, my friends.
I mean, look at your dads.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
It goes.
It goes pretty deep.
It goes pretty deep.
I've got.
I've got stories, Hindufestivals, Buddhist meditation on

(01:35:47):
mountaintops, ayahuasca.
Like you.
I can go there.
You are the epitome of Jesusbeing the end game.
It's like we go and we lookaround for everything except him,
but we always land right on him.
Right?
It's like, oh, okay, I get it now.
You're.
You're it.
Yeah.
I like to think.
I like to think that I'm theepitome of having to make all the

(01:36:08):
mistakes in the book.
First before getting the right answer.
Yeah, that's a really good wayof putting it.
I like that.
Yeah, it's true.
It's true.
Well, Melissa, thank you somuch for.
For your time.
And I really just have onemore question just about the book.
If this book could accomplish.
Maybe you've already answeredit, but if this book could accomplish
one thing as a result offinishing it, completing it, launching

(01:36:29):
it out there into the world,what would you like to see this book
accomplish?
I want it to give Christians.
I wanted to give Christians anidea of what this is so they could
be more bold and courageouswith their faith.
But more than anything, I wantpeople to understand the Jesus of

(01:36:49):
scripture, right?
Not the Jesus of J. Dubs, notthe Jesus that we make up in our
heart, not the progressive Jesus.
I want them to understand thegospel clearly and understand why
the Christian message, thegospel message is good and true.
And that is exactly whatthey've been looking for.

(01:37:10):
In fact, my.
I dedicated the book.
You'll people understand it asthey read, because a new thought,
the idea is that you'realready whole.
You just have to recognize it.
You already have the Christconsciousness within.
You just have to recognize it.
You are whole.
And so there was this lie,even as a Christian, right?

(01:37:30):
I'm like, oh, everybody's whole.
They just gotta know, no, no, no.
There's only one person whocan make you whole.
Nothing by the blood, right?
Only by the blood of Jesus.
And I think that is thedriving message I want to get through
to people is everything thatyou've been looking for is in him.
Praise God.

(01:37:51):
Answer the question for meabout the.
About the dedication as well.
Thank you so much.
Well, this has been abeautiful conversation about the
origins of the book and theworldview that it encapsulates and
your journey and so much more.
Where would you like to sendpeople to find out more about what
you do and find out more aboutthe book?
Yeah, I have a website.
My name.
If you just put in my name,people will find me.

(01:38:12):
And then my YouTube channel.
Melissa Doherty again, justlook for my name.
Instagram, Facebook.
I think I'm an ex.
I don't really check X a lot,but I post and I kind of dip and
dash, right?
I post and dash on.
On.
On X.
Because it's a cesspool over there.
But yeah, the major platforms,you'll find me.

(01:38:33):
Wonderful.
Oh, and then the book iswherever you buy books, wherever
you go.
Yeah.
Excellent.
Well, thank you so much, Melissa.
And from your lips to God's ears.
May the book accomplish your goals.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.

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