SETH TROUTT - Toxic Masculinity vs. Biblical Manhood: Building a New Framework for Christian Men - The Will Spencer Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Foreign.

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Hello and welcome to the WillSpencer Podcast.
This is a weekly show where Isit down with authors, thought leaders,
and influencers who help usunderstand our changing world.
New episodes release every Friday.
My guest this week is Seth Trout.
Seth is the teaching pastor atIronwood Church in the Phoenix metro
area, and he's been pastoringfull time since 2011.
With a doctorate focused ondigital technology, Generation Z,

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and gender identity.
Seth provides biblicalguidance on both complex cultural
issues and practical personal challenges.
His writing explores theintersections of theology, technology,
and culture.
Seth is an alumnus of ArizonaState University, Phoenix Seminary
and Covenant Seminary.
He's been married to Taylorsince 2013 and they live in Gilbert,

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Arizona together.
Seth and Taylor have twochildren, Jay and Olivia.
Seth Trout, welcome to theWill Spencer Podcast.
Will, thanks for having me.
It's an honor to be here.
I appreciate your work and I'mglad to get to share with you some
of mine.
Excellent.
Well, we had a nice sit downfor coffee and of course I discovered
I moved out here to East Mesaaround end of last year or something

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like that and discovered thatyour church was just right around
the corner.
So I was grateful to give mefor coffee a little bit ago.
Oh yeah, 15 minutes down the street.
It's a small world and a bigworld at the same time.
And it's nice when you getreminded that it's small.
Absolutely.
And so when we sat down tochat, you told me a little bit about
your upcoming book.
We talked about masculinity,and I thought that you had a really

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good framework forunderstanding many of the challenges
that modern men are facing,particularly in the church.
And so I sort of came upthrough the manosphere and that whole
world.
And so to sit down and talkwith you about these issues was like,
okay, this is a guy who getsthe whole picture and knows how to
communicate it specifically,specifically to Christian men, which
is so important today.

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Yeah.
Well, thanks for that.
Yeah.
There's a church that's rightby Arizona State University that
I had friends that were onstaff there and they started telling
me they were having amanosphere problem at their church,
like that there's a bit of anAndrew Tate uprising among the Christians
there.
And they said, hey, will youcome do a talk for us on a Wednesday
night on what is wrong withAndrew Tate's view or what are the

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errors here?
And they've specifically said,you know, every, everybody who's
not a total dummy can smelltoxic masculinity, so called.
But what's like the positivevision of the alternative that's
when people start to kind ofget dancy, especially in evangelical
circles, where there is like anervousness about articulating what
is like, it's easy to say,don't be toxic.

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I mean, who aspires to toxicity?
That sounds like prettyobvious to anybody.
And so they said, hey, come toa talk on this.
And I thought I got to come upwith a framework of how to approach
this right?
Besides just kind of a handfulof random Bible verse verses.
And so much of what I had beenlike, frustrated by, as I've been
reading broadly onmasculinity, was how most masculinity

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books, even within the, likean evangelical subculture or even
like a Christian subculturemore broadly speaking, if they weren't
Roman Catholic, they ended upkind of accidentally promoting some
type of androgyny or this.
The problem is, you know,like, too many people want to be
like John Wayne.
They should just be like Jesus.
I'm like, amen for be like Jesus.

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But also like women alsoaspire to be like Jesus.
How are men trying to be likeJesus in a way that's maybe different
than a way that women aretrying to be like Jesus?
Is there a distinction there?
What is that distinction?
And at the same time, thattension kind of helped me recognize
that the starting point, Ithink, was is the issue that a lot
of what gets called so calledtoxic masculinity, that it's really

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a missing appreciation for thedifference between God and man, not
necessarily starting with thedifferences between men and women,
but the difference between Godand man.
That if you think about themost important distinction in the
entire universe is thedistinction between creator and creature
or creator and creation.
That that's the.

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That's like the basis of ourwhole worldview is that there is
an uncreated one and he madestuff and he rules over that stuff,
and we're part of that Stu stuff.
And so trying to make sense ofthe significance of that distinction
helps me begin to grasp, like,what I would kind of like begin with
the masculine virtues or themasculine presence is this idea of

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humility that I am not God.
And as simple as that sounds,that I think that really even before
you get into the specifics ofthe masculine feminine thing like
man, if men just got that,they would be humble, they'd be submissive
to God.
And it's not just the creatorcreature distinction, but it's also
the Savior needs saved distinction.

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So there's a humility that'sboth recognition of your sin, your
need for grace, the absolutenecessity of sheer unconditional
grace and at the same time theabsolute ontological distinction
between God and creation.
And so that kind of becamelike the foundational thing for me.
Like literally I built afound, I called it the masculinity

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pyramid.
And the base of that pyramidis man is not God, therefore he needs
to be humble.
And that was like a reallyhelpful starting point.
Different than, like, how aremen different than women, but how's
a man different than God?
Then I kind of built up from there.
Like the second layer in thepyramid is like, okay, well man is
different than the rest of the creation.

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He's the image of God.
He's the moral creature.
He's not like a dog.
Like think about Pavlov's dog.
You know, it's ring bell, drool.
There's just kind of cause and effect.
There's not a lot of agency orno agency in subhuman creation.
But manna can have moral vision.
He can order his desires, hecan order his loves.
He can let greater thingssupersede lesser things.

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And so this like idea ofdiscipline, which is, I understand,
is like rightly ordering yourvalues and then living in congruence
with those values.
He said, well, man's not ananimal, therefore he can have discipline.
Like dogs don't havediscipline, Chimpanzees don't have
discipline.
So you got like humility, then discipline.
Then the next layer up is thatman's not a boy.

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You think about like a boycan't take care of himself, he's
not responsible, he can't betrusted to make good decisions.
Boys need mothers, boys, boysneed parents.
Boys need to be managed.
You send my son's five, sendhim to a grocery store, he comes
back with a bunch of stuff wedon't need.
That's not going to be what'sright for him.
I hope soon he'll break out of that.
But to cease to be a boy is togain responsibility.

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And obviously first you takeresponsibility for yourself and then
it goes beyond that to takingresponsibility for others.
You think like caring likethis is in one of the qualifications
of an elder.
If a man can't manage hishousehold, how can he take care of
the church of God?
Those kind of like manage andcare go hand in hand.
Like self management, self care.
Not in like the get a facialand get your toes done sense of self

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care, but the ability to likemake good choices that support your
flourishing.
Then as my care developsmargin, now I can care for other
people.
Now I have the capacity to benot just self preoccupied, but others
Preoccupied.
Like, I've put my oxygen mask on.
Now I can put the mask onother people and help them breathe
when the plane goes down.
And those first three, I dothink we have mostly in common with

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women, though.
There is, like,differentiation and how some of those
things play outdevelopmentally and otherwise.
But then the top of thatpyramid, so you've got like humility,
discipline, responsibility.
Those are the first threelayers of the pyramid.
Then the top of it is that manis not woman.
And I really kind of buildthat framework off of First Peter
3 7, where Peter is exhortingmen, you know, live with your wives

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in an understanding way,showing honor to the woman as the
weaker vessel, lest yourprayers be hindered.
So it's both like anobservation about male female distinction.
Weaker vessel, stronger vessel.
There's also additionalresponsibility given you live with
your wife in an understanding way.
The wife's not commanded tounderstand her husband, though obviously

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don't think that's a bad thingif wives understand their husbands.
But there is like, the morepowerful being has an incumbent responsibility
to seek out understanding.
And then there's like a threatthat if you don't listen to your
wife, I don't listen to you.
Your prayers will be hinderedif you don't understand your wife
or live with her in anunderstanding way.
And so I call that top of thepyramid chivalry.

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The first time I made it, Icalled it aggression.
But I think chivalry, I wouldcall rightly ordered aggression.
It's strength that honors.
And if you think about whatactually makes a man a man biologically,
in the womb, their geneticcode triggers a testosterone wash
that leads to the developmentof the male genitals.

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And then the male genitalslead to something between 20 to 30%,
30 times not percent.
So 200, 300 times moretestosterone in a man versus a woman.
And you think about the effectof testosterone on people.
It creates aggression and strength.
That's kind of what it does.
And so what would holyaggression look like?

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I think it looks like chivalry.
It's strength that honors.
It's initiation that protects.
It's standing in the gap.
And so that was the talk Igave, which is my.
They called it the masculinitypyramid, or the masculine virtues
of humility, discipline,responsibility, and chivalry.
And part of the reason I likethat is when Adam first sees Eve

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in the garden, the first thinghe says is, bone of my bone, flesh
in my flesh.
I think if most of us saw anaked woman in the garden, we might
Observe what is differentfirst about her, but first thing
he notices is how she's ahuman, just like me, bone of my bone,
flesh in my flesh, sameness.
And I do think in some circlesthere can be the overemphasis on

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difference that maybe likeminimizes the image of God in woman
or radicalizes the gap in away that's maybe problematic.
But then you kind of have theopposite, the androgynous side, which
de emphasizes or minimizes the differences.
And so if we kind of sharesome of those first three, but in
the top one being chivalry,which really emphasizes the difference,

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I think it's been a helpful framework.
And part of what I like aboutit is even young children can remember
those four things.
Humility, discipline,responsibility, chivalry.
Man is not God, man is notanimal, man is not boy, man is not
woman.
And it ends up being like agood conversation starter.
Like when I've taught on thisat our church.

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Which of these four do youstink at the most?
Which of these four are youbest, like naturally good at?
You know, are you generallychivalrous or not?
And so then you kind of do thewhole like, what is toxic masculinity
thing.
And I think it's mostly theabsence of one of those four things.
So it's less the presence ofsomething and more the absence of

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something.
So someone who like lacks humility.
Oh, there's toxic masculinity, right?
And oh, there's chivalry.
Like there's someone who'sbombastic or self seeking, or like
a peacock, he doesn't have humility.
Or there's someone who'sconstantly sleeping past their alarm
and can't be trusted withtheir money.
And you go, oh, that's missing something.

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And so I do think, I reallyhate the term actually toxic masculinity
because most of the timetoxicity means too much of something,
right?
Like if you get a toxic levelof magnesium or a toxic level of
you can die from drinking toomuch water.
That's like, you got water toxic.

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But most of the time whatwe're identifying is, quote, toxic
masculinity.
It's actually the lack of masculinity.
It's anemic.
Like there's not enough of it.
There's not too much of it.
So even like the bombasticchauvinist, they lack humility.
They're lacking some like,very real, meaningful masculine energy,
which is submission to God.

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And so.
And someone who's like wildlypassive, limp, impotent in life,
who's leaned out, whoWithdraws, who hides, who pouts.
That is every bit as toxic, socalled as the abusive person.
Thank you.
Yes, every single bit.

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Like when I talk to guys now,this week I've had three meetings
with guys who are strugglingabout stuff.
One of them had an abusive father.
And he's actually having aneasier time naming and processing
that grief, working through,setting a new generational trajectory.
He is like, it's a, it's aburden that he's carrying, but he's

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like a little more prepared tocarry it.
The guys who had like passive,absentee, withdrawn, deadbeat fathers,
like, who kind of had like anegative model as opposed to like,
like the absence of a model,like to feel not pursued, not loved,
ran out on creates like almosta deeper father wound than even an

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abusive father.
I don't necessarily want to becomparing traumas here, but I'm just
saying in the church it'salmost 4 to 1, maybe 5 to 1 on an
abdicating father wound versusan abusive father wound.
If I'm just going to try to dothe numbers based on my experience
in my church.
And so that chivalrous, holyaggression, support, investment into

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women, children, your friendseven, I think that's a helpful framework.
So that's like what I call themasculinity pyramid or the masculine
virtues.
And I've really enjoyedbringing it to men and talking about
it with them and it's been apretty positive thing.
So I'm curious, you've been inthe masculinity space a lot longer
than I have.
I kind of got called pulledinto it when the church asked me

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to teach about it.
How does that sit with you?
Like, what are the holes orthe gaps?
What do you appreciate about it?
I mean, all that stuff andlike I'm sitting here listening,
I was like, all that stufflands so, so well in such a powerful
way.
So I can just in no particularthings as they come up.
The, the first thing thatreally lands is the idea of there

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being two.
And I've said this before,there are two kinds of toxic masculinity.
There's the, there's thechauvinistic one, the macho, bravado
kind of guy.
And that has a particulareffect on his environment, a negative
effect.
But then there's the passiveguy that drains energy, life out
of his environment.
That's a completely differentform of toxicity.

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And I don't, again, like you,I don't like the word, but just to
sort of, just to simplify.
And so those two kinds of menare two Very different sorts of problems.
I've also observed, you know,that, that there are the men who.
That the men who need todevelop an edge have an easier time
than the men.
Like they're so.
They're softer men who need todevelop an edge.

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They're better at that thanthe men who have an edge but need
to get their edge broken.
Like, I don't find too manymen at all that are like the macho
Andrew Tate types who thenrepent and become softer.
That's a.
That's.
It happens, but it's rare.
But there are so many men thathave grown up passive that are learning
to cultivate and develop anedge and be.
And be more active in their lives.

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That's another one.
And I think the thing thatalso stands out and we can run from
this is I love how you startwith humility.
Because so much of themanosphere, the masculinity dialogue,
ignores the existence of Godand is actually quite Nietzschean,
which is you must become Godin various ways, not necessarily

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in the Nebuchadnezzar, build astatue to yourself way, although
that is present.
But there is very much a.
Become a God of your ownlittle world, the Ubermensch.
And that has a very terribleeffect on men who, who achieve it
and then men who fail toachieve it, versus just recognizing
there will always be one thatyou are lesser than, and that is

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God.
Right.
And recognizing you're not.
That is such a powerful placeto start with humility.
So maybe we can start there.
Because men having to learnthat they're not God can have benefits
for both the passive man.
Right.
And the sort of more macho,bravado guy.
Yeah, absolutely.
One of the metaphors thathelps me make sense of this is there's

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a type of guy who I'd calllike the peacock who flaunts the
feathers.
Look at me.
On the surface, they look veryconfident, very self assured.
Most of the time they'reactually pretty insecure and kind
of held captive to otherpeople's gaze.
But that's like a kind ofunhumility that, like you said, it's
the machismo.
Then there's the other side,which I would say, like, is the male

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black widow, like the man whoallows himself to be devoured because
he has no real sense of selfand he's deeply insecure in a different
way.
Like he doesn't see himself asvaluable, doesn't see himself as
potent, is kind of ruled bythe opinions of other people.
And it's kind of like whateverthe worst Version of happy wife,

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happy life is, you know, whereyou're kind of enmeshed or your,
your identity is derivative ofother people in your life.
Sometimes your wife, sometimesyour girlfriend, sometimes your mother,
sometimes your pastor.
But you don't really have likea sense of yourself as valuable.
And I think the doctrine ofhumility, under the image of God,
where you go, some people needto repent of their.

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Of thinking too highly of themselves.
Like, no, you're a sinner, youneed grace.
Hell is real and God saved youfrom it.
So let's not think too highlyof ourselves.
Other people need to repent oftheir low view of them and go, do
you think God put you on Earthto just do nothing and be nothing?
Like he has a created intentfor every individual man, woman and

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child.
Like, he designed you withpurpose and on purpose, not on accident.
And you know, you may not beGenghis Khan or Tim Cook or Elon
Musk or whatever, but you canhave dominion over the sphere that
God has entrusted to you andsteward it well and honor him in

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that and really make adifference in your corner of the
world.
I had a mentor one time whosaid, I don't think men are called
to try to change the world,but I do think they're called to
change their corner of the world.
Like whatever their sphere is,that God has given them to steward
it and that God has preparedbeforehand for us good works.
That's Ephesians 2:10.

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Right off talks about beingsaved by grace.
It's like God has prepared foryou things.
I'm preaching on it throughHebrews right now.
And it says, run the racemarked out for us with endurance,
as though there is.
There's a race Abraham ran,there's a race Sarah ran.
There's a race that the peopleof the Old Testament ran.
And there's a race we have forus to run.

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And God desires that we wouldrun it.
And that's really ennobling tobe a son of God, to sit with him
and reign with him and rulewith him over our domain, over our
sphere, over our arena, and torule like him.
That is like full of thespirit with love, joy, peace, patience,

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kindness, goodness,gentleness, self control, faithfulness.
That when I rule over what Godhas given me to rule congruent with
the spirit of God, I dowondrous good things to the world.
And I'm totally in that ad.
And I've talked to again laterlast week.
I talked to a guy who wastelling me about how he was in a

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field contemplating Suicide atthe end of his rope, thinking about
laying it down.
And God interrupted him.
Interrupted him.
He said that was his phrase.
He said, God interrupted me.
And I recognized God would nothave me here unless he would have

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me here.
He wants me here to do something.
And so his repentance lookedlike raising his view of himself
that God has a purpose for me.
And I didn't receive that.
And I think that's actually humility.
That's not haughtiness, that'snot arrogance.
That's believing that God putyou on earth for a purpose.
To do something meaningful andpurposeful is not haughtiness.

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It's going to the glory of the Lord.
I will do glorious things andI will point people to him with whatever
I have.
And so that humility piece,sometimes people think it's just
like self flatulation orthinking lowly of yourself.
But the C.S.
lewis quote, that humility isnot thinking lower of yourself or
less of yourself.
It's just generally thinkingof yourself less.

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Like it's being preoccupiedwith something besides you, which
is God, his purpose, his glory.
And I think real masculinehumility looks like going, I am a
son of God.
I have special access.
I have purpose.
It makes me think.
You know, my dad used to be ahigh school basketball coach.
And when I was like seven, Iwould strut around Chandler High

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School like I owned the place.
And when the security guardwas like, where's your ticket?
Or what are you doing here?
I'm like, my dad's the coach,you know, like this.
And it was pretty naive and Iprobably could have used a little
correction on how to carry myself.
But this believing that my dadwas in a position of authority, therefore
you all need to respect me,was pretty ingrained in me.

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And I do think that shapes howI relate to God.
And my dad's in a position ofauthority and I'm his son and he's
asked me to be here and so I'mgoing to be here.
I'm going to do the best I can.
That kind of confidenthumility, not an anemic black widow
male humility, but like arobust view of self is, I think really

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it's encouraging to me and Ithink it's encouraging others as
well.
Yeah, it's, it's finding thatbalance between being totally self
effacing, you know, falsehumility and, you know, and then
you kind of step up out ofthat ditch and then learning to stand
on, maybe it's a balance beamin a sense where you don't fall into
the ditch.
Of thinking far too much of yourself.

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And that seems to be a balancebeam that that many men have trouble
standing on, like climb out ofone ditch only to fall into the next
one.
And it's really only faith inChrist and understanding of your
nature as a created being thatcan help establish that balance.
Because I don't see itanywhere else.
There's no place else to putthat in a way that it can be rooted
firmly and not just collapseinto one of two errors.

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Yeah.
And I think the Christiandoctrine of salvation, it threads
that needle.
And I don't believe in thedoctrine of justification by grace
because it works.
I believe it because I thinkit's true.
I also think it works, is theway I think about that.
Like this idea that you aremade in God's image and absolutely
deserve hell because you're asinner and God saved you by sheer
grace, and nothing can change that.

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That really creates thebalance needed, I think, to be a
self, like a confident person,but who's confident because you're
confident in the Lord, notbecause you're confident in yourself.
And so I'm so thankful forjust the gospel of grace, because
I do think that creates a viewof self that's like, wildly functional
in addition to being wildlytrue, because it's what the Bible

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teaches.
And I like also how beginningfrom a posture of humility immediately
sets the tone forrelationships with women.
Right.
Whether it be wives or someonethat you're courting or anyone, just
women in your environment.
Because so many men fall inthe passive ditch, they kind of vanish
and disappear.
And men who are passive, theywill have moments where they snap

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out of that passivity and arefar too active.
Right.
That seems to be the back and forth.
And then you have the bravado.
Guys who end up who can bequite domineering in marriage and
can be quite disparaging, youknow, in other circumstances.
But beginning with thatposture of humility is the.
Is the surest way to preventthat, to prevent both of those and
to look and see.

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This is.
This is my sister in Christmade in the image of God, another
woman made in the image ofGod, as opposed to saying, no, I'm
God, or like, I'm beneath her.
And that's what I've seen somuch in the manosphere is you have
men who either look down onwomen or look up to them.
Don't do either of those.
Like, you can look your sistersquare in the eye.
I know that that's consideredconfronting or whatever, but, like,

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you know, as the Metaphor,that's what you're supposed to do,
is just like, look them squarein the eye.
Because compared to yourCreator and your Savior, you're both
on exactly the same level,which is, like, nowhere.
But I think.
You know what I mean.
Oh, absolutely.
I think one of the litmustests for humility is curiosity.
And here's what I mean by that.
In Philippians 2, Paul'stalking about the mind of Christ,

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you know, who, being in verynature God did not considered equality
with God a thing to be graspedor leveraged, but made himself nothing,
taking the form of servant,being found in the likeness of man.
And he goes on to say, like,the purpose of this is to consider
others more significant than yourselves.
And I don't think what he'ssaying is, think other people are
more valuable than you, butit's like, give more consideration

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to others than you give to yourself.
And so when you meet a woman,when you meet a man, you're going
to.
And if you approach thatperson with, like, genuine curiosity,
not like weird, prying,interrogative, interrogating efforts,
but like, going, there'ssomething going on in this person's
heart, mind and soul that'sfundamentally interesting because

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they're made in God's interest.
They're made in God's image.
I had another mentor one time,I was telling about how I was so
bored with most people andthey were annoying to me.
And he said, well, here's thething is people.
People are interesting, and ifyou're not interested in them, then
that's your problem.
Yes.
And it was like him saying,people are objectively interesting.
If you're not interested, thenyou're not humble.

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Because the ability toconsider others and weigh their opinions
and thoughts and mind, toreally try to get between someone's
ears, behind someone's eyesand go, how do they see the world?
How do they think about it?
What do they want in life?
What's making them tick?
That.
That type of gravitas that youkind of are at, that you're attracting
people because of your curiosity.

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Tell me more about that.
What's going on there?
Hey, help me understand why that.
And that is actuallyattractive, both in friendship and
in dating.
Like, people who, like, aregenuinely curious in people.
People like being around them.
And so I don't just meanattractive like in the sexual sense,
but I just mean in the.
People tend to like curiouspeople because they're like, oh,
I like me and you want to getto know me.

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That sounds great.
And I don't think it's allthat childish and petty.
But.
But I think the people that Imeet that are just like genuinely
naturally curious.
That to me is like one of theabove the line iceberg type tells
on real humility.
Like people who really areinterested in other people and not
just interested in talkingabout themselves.

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Because it is normal thatpeople like talking about themselves.
What's abnormal is people liketalking about someone else.
And so that curiosity test is.
Is one I have to give myselfpretty often, but also one that when
I'm like just trying todiscern the character of another
person, like are they justnaturally curious or even supernaturally

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curious because of the work ofGod in their life?
Amen to that.
So you've said a couple thingsthat indicate that there's been a
significant change between theyoung man you were in high school
and the man that you are today.
I don't know.
Can you.
From strutting around and.
And thinking people wereboring and stuff like that.
Like clearly that's not whoyou are now.

(28:12):
Can you share if you'd bewilling, maybe a couple of the episodes
that might have set you on acourse correction to the place that
you are today.
Yeah.
There's a season in my lifewhere I was very self confident,
like in high school inparticular, where I was captain of

(28:34):
the sports team, voted most attractive.
And I was just really mean topeople all the time.
I would make teachers cry.
I would make people, I wouldmake kids cry, like grown women.
Like just a general.
Like I had a really sharp,fast tongue.
I can.
I knew how to make people feelreally small really fast.

(28:56):
You know, I had.
I.
One of my buddies is likesuper into the enneagram.
I'm kind of man on it.
I don't.
I don't know if you hate it ornot, but he talks about.
But yeah, yeah.
Well, I'll tell you.
I'll tell you this so you'refree to hate it.
But he's talking about.
He say.
He told me I'm an eight andEights have this sixth sense for
weakness in other people.

(29:18):
And it like I'm like, wellthat explains things.
So I feel like I could seepeople see what they're insecure
about and just twist the knifeon them just to make myself feel
bigger.
And it wasn't even like I waslike, I need to make myself feel
bigger.
But I was like, I can makethat person feel smaller.
Why not?
And it was like lab, likescientist, lab rat was kind of like

(29:38):
how dehumanizing I think I wasto other people as Far as, like,
people were just entertainingto me.
And if I could poke theirbuttons and make them feel small,
it was just kind of like, interesting.
And then I'd go home and sleepwell at night if I made a teacher
cry and some girl in my class cry.
And then I'd go to church andI'd lead worship because I was in

(29:59):
the band.
And so that was the, thebinary thing.
And I had three different mentors.
Guy named Thomas, guy namedLuke, and a guy named Michael.
They never conspired together.
I tested them on that.
But, you know, Luke first.
Luke pulled me aside and hewas a worship leader at a different

(30:20):
church.
And he said, hey, you'rereally haughty and arrogant and you're
destroying people.
You should really think aboutworking on humility.
Wow.
And I remember thinking like,sure, whatever.
Well, how do I work on humility?
And he said, I want you toread this book, Humility by Andrew
Murray, and why don't youmemorize Philippians 2?
And I was very good at school.

(30:41):
I was very good academic wise.
So I read the book in a week,memorized Philippines two in a week.
Came back to him the next weekand said, done.
What else you got?
I'm humble now.
And he said, that didn't work.
You're still terrible.
And I'm like, well, what doyou got to do?
What are you talking about?
I did the thing you asked, andI know what humility is.

(31:03):
I read the book on humility.
I memorized the chapter on humility.
I know everything there is toknow about humility.
Yeah.
Do you want me to teach aclass on humility?
I could totally do.
So then a few weeks afterthat, a guy named Thomas said, you're
pretty arrogant.
You seem to be totallyunconcerned about other people, pretty
aloof to what they're thinkingand feeling, uninterested in what

(31:25):
they're thinking and feeling.
You kind of seem to think likeyou're God's gift to the world and
nobody else is.
And I was like, yeah, I think so.
You know, just going, I thinkI'm an asset.
I think I'm an asset.
And I think I'm great.
And, you know, I'm.
I'm good at school and I'm funto be around and the Lord's lucky

(31:47):
to have me.
It was kind of like the sound.
Like a riot to be around.
Sound like a lot of fun to be around.
Yeah.
And, you know, I'd go toparties at school and people would
be drinking and doing drugsand the non Christians would go like,
hey, you want to drink with us?
And I'd say, no, I don't needa drink because my parents love me
and I'm not trying to coveremptiness with alcohol.

(32:10):
And I don't know how nobodycame to Christ through my wild evangelism
efforts.
Baffling.
Yeah.
So a great mystery.
Just giving you a flavor forthe haughtiness and just the high
handed self importance.
Then another pastor told methat it was like a liability.
How arrogant I was.
And I was like, to who?

(32:33):
And it didn't make any sense.
And then my girlfriend at thetime broke up with me and she was
like, best looking girl in thehigh school, best looking girl in
the youth group.
And she told me, I don't wantto be around you, were not working
out.
And it like really chopped meoff in a.

(32:53):
At the knees, in a different way.
Wow.
Going like, what are you.
You don't want to.
Who wouldn't want to be with me?
Like, you're a crazy person.
And there's.
I can only make sense of it insuch a way of going.
There's a type of humilitythat only comes from humiliation.
Yes.

(33:13):
That you go.
Like, I remember going toschool the next day and feeling like
I'm gonna have to tell peoplemy girlfriend broke up with me.
What kind of loser has hergirlfriend break up with?
And I'm about to go to churchand see her and people are gonna
go, she broke up with you?
And I'm gonna have to like,face the music on that kind of embarrassment

(33:38):
of how that plays out.
And.
And I feel like that reallystirred something in me where I was
going, okay, maybe these other people.
Then I remember going to someof these mentors and going, all right,
now tell me again about howI'm arrogant.
Tell me more about that.
All right.
I had two different friends.

(34:00):
One who was my best friend.
Tell me.
I don't like being around you.
I don't want to talk to you.
He went off to college, said,don't call me, don't text me.
You've, like, I've been likemad at you and desire to not be around
you for at least the last two years.
And going off to college is agreat way to escape you.
And I'm going, I thought thisguy was my best friend.

(34:20):
This is the guy who led me to.
This is the guy who led me toChrist in eighth grade, the guy who
introduced me to my girlfriend.
I had another really goodfriend who just.
I Was like, leading a smallgroup at the church and said, I don't
want to be a part of thisthing anymore.
Like, left the church to getaway from me, me.
And so it was really likementors telling me, you're not who

(34:42):
you think you are.
Me not being able to hear it,my friends telling me you're not
who you think you are.
I don't want to be around,like, getting broken up with by your
friends, getting broken upwith your girlfriend.
That kind of, like, gave youthe image.
It was actually, like, thatkind of crisis.
It was probably like 18, 19,that whole window.
I had another, like, guy.

(35:04):
So when these pastors told meI was arrogant, I was thinking like,
well, these people are justkind of passive beta men.
If I went to a church with,like, more healthy, masculine leadership,
they would appreciate my presence.
And so I went to a differentchurch to meet with the pastor there.
And I was like, yeah, I thinkit'd be great if I came over here.
A lot of people would comewith me, and it'd be good for you

(35:25):
if I came over here.
Basically, that was, like, mypitch to this guy.
And he said that I had youngman's disease.
And, like, what's young man's disease?
He's like, everything aboutyou, it's.
It's haughtiness, it'soverestimation of self.
It's lack of humility.
It's misunderstanding people.

(35:46):
And he said, I don't want youto come here.
Like, you.
I mean, could if you want to,but you'll sit in the back, he won't
serve, and you'll just.
You won't be a.
You will lead nothing for avery long time.
I don't even know why you'releading stuff over there.
I don't know why they'reletting you do that.
And.
And so it's kind of like thisfeeling of, like, being unwanted
by people, especially beingunwanted by my girlfriend, ex girlfriend,

(36:08):
at that time that I think gaveme ears to hear and go back to.
So my youth pastor now, hisname's Michael, at the time, I still
meet with him, like, everyfive, six weeks.
It's been 20 years, maybe not20, 15 years.
That gave me ears to hear whathe had to say and, like, not receive

(36:29):
the personal confrontation assomething that was just another syllabus
to pass or another ladder toclimb, but actually having humility
before God, that came on thefar end of humiliation, the embarrassment,
the shame of realizing my viewof me and other people's view of

(36:50):
me was really, really There'sa big gap gap.
And so that's kind of theterrifying part when you go, I don't
even trust myself to see myself.
Like, I.
My.
My read on me wasuntrustworthy, so I can't really
trust myself to read myself.
I need mentors and people totell me the truth about me, because

(37:11):
I can't believe my own BS anymore.
Like, I can't, like.
And so that he.
That was a.
A painful grind of 18 to 36months probably in that window.
That was really helpful to mein the long run.

(37:32):
So the Lord definitely usedit, but it was like a tribe of people
having to beat me down to getmy ears soft enough to listen, because
there's a lot of people sayingthe same thing.
And I could not hear spirit.
And a piece of me wants to blame.
My prefrontal cortex wasn'tall the way developed, but I just

(37:53):
think it was.
The deep embeddedness of sinis a much more biblical explanation,
so I'm thankful for that.
I do think the biggest turningpoint was my girlfriend at the time
breaking up with me.
And that kind of set off thedomino effect of other people going,
like, oh, you can just notwant to be around Seth.
That sounds great.
Sign me up.

(38:14):
And so there was some effectthere that cascaded a bit.
I really appreciate your.
Your honesty and your humilityabout that.
And it just totally makessense that you would hit 18, 19 years
old, and then all thestructures that are built around
you in high school thateveryone feels kind of beholden to,

(38:34):
those fall away.
And then everyone is sort oflike, has freedom of association,
and it's like, hey, now thatthat's done, I'm out of here.
See ya.
And again, just going back tosomething I said earlier in the conversation.
It's so rare in my experienceto see men with as sharp and as hard
an edge as you had to havethat edge be broken or like.
Or like, be broken and thenreconstituted in a healthy way.

(38:57):
Like what a lot of men will dowho encounter.
Like, they'll take those threeknocks and they'll be like, the whole
world is wrong.
I hate you all, and whatever.
And they'll, like, triple downand their edge will get super brittle.
And then something will comealong later in life that'll just
shatter them, and they won'tever be able to be, like, a productive
contributor.
Maybe God will find them inthat place, or maybe they'll find
their way into extremist ideologies.

(39:18):
Happens frequently.
Or drug abuse, alcohol abuse.
Like, that's a Very common pattern.
But that you actually receivedthe correction with humility, I think
is definitely a gift from God.
A gift of the Holy Spirit thatmade your internal ability to stand
upright and not collapse intosome worse state as a result.
And it sounds like Godactually reshaped you in a very productive

(39:39):
direction, because the man whoyou were now has the ability to speak
to men who are in similarplaces and reach them, which is so
very much needed.
And again, it makes a wholeton of sense why you would be called
to speak into the Andrew Tate situation.
Because someone who can speakauthoritatively into that is someone
who's like, look, I get what'sgoing on there, and I know what you

(40:02):
feel, what you think isappealing about him.
And I used to kind of be that way.
And that will have a specificattraction for young men in a more
godly direction, if that makes sense.
Sense.
Oh, yeah.
I hope so.
And I feel really grateful tothe Lord because I do think in that
season that had I fallen intothe wrong hands, the way I would

(40:24):
have stewarded thathumiliation could have been wildly
different.
Yes, you know, is going, well,the problem is evangelicals, or the
problem is church, or theproblem is women, or the problem
is Western culture, or theproblem is, instead of God, had all
these people around me whowere all, like, holding up the mirror
to me and going like, no, theproblem is you quit.

(40:46):
Because there's a piece of methat wanted to go the victim path
and wanted to take up the woeis me path.
And zero people who were closeto me tolerated that energy for a
second.
They're all like, no, you,you, you, you are the problem.
And so the Taylor Swift song,you know, it's me.

(41:06):
Hi, I'm the problem.
It's me.
That's the.
I go, man, that song wasn'tout when I was in high school, but
it would've been my personaltheme song for about two years, for
sure.
Not the rest of the song, justthat line in the song.
But you get how it goes.
Cause I do feel like whereyou're at, because humiliation is
suffering.
And how you cope withsuffering shapes a lot of what's

(41:29):
gonna come of that suffering.
And I think that God had someloving men in my life who are not
afraid to confront me and notafraid to be unimpressed with me
and not afraid to tell me the truth.
Can't relate.
And they all.
And they all just kept holdingup the mirror.
No, it's.
You keep looking in this mirror.
Like, it makes me think aboutwhen the prophet Nathan Confronts

(41:51):
David.
And he goes, oh, you know,there is a man who had all these
sheep, but then this one guyonly had one sheep.
And what do you think about that?
Because the guy with all thesheep took the guy's one sheep.
And David goes, that's wrong.
That shouldn't be happening.
And Nathan goes, you're the man.
Like, it's almost like Nathanholds up a window.

(42:11):
I think Zach Eswine talksabout this.
He holds a window.
Like, look out this window.
What do you think was out that window?
And then you speak withjudgment about what you see out the
window.
Them, those people, men likethat, those type of people.
And then the prophet Nathantakes the window and turns it into
a mirror and says, look inthis, buddy.
And it's like, oh.
And then you see yourself.
So I had a bunch of men who help.

(42:31):
Like, we're good at lookingout the window with me, me.
And then they kept turning thewindow in the mirror and saying,
now you.
Now you take this medicine.
Now you receive humility.
And when I saw humility asjust a project, then it was just
another occasion for haughtiness.
But when humility becamesomething that I kind of didn't really

(42:52):
choose, but humiliation forcedme into it.
And then I was able to connectwith the Lord and mentors in that
process.
I felt like it was good.
And so if you ask my wife nowhow much of that guy is still in
there, she'd say, he's not allthe way dead.
Sure.
Of course he's still around.
And even some of my friendswho are listening to this might go,

(43:14):
like, how interesting thatSeth thinks he's so much better now.
So there's the sinful habitsrear their heads.
And it's one of those.
The more kind of safe I tendto feel relationally in an environment,
it.
The more I kind of let thatpart of myself come out, which is
really gross.

(43:34):
You know, you think the peoplewho love you the most and you feel
safest around you try to bethe most holy with.
But there is an old habits diehard thing that is still a battle.
The type of humility that'sactually congruent with the spirit
of Christ.
You have to go on in thespirit, receiving the spirit.

(43:58):
You can't just trust on pastfaithfulness to produce future faithfulness.
That's not how it works.
That's right.
That's right.
I'm glad that you said that,because there's very much a component
of our ongoing sanctification,which is like, yes, we're saved and
the burden falls off like apilgrim's progress.
But that doesn't mean we'recompletely brand new people.

(44:20):
There are some sins, habits,ways of being thinking and acting
and speaking that continue on,that we need to throw ourselves on,
on the mercy of Christ toregenerate us in.
And that's an.
That is an ongoing practice,an ongoing pattern, and it requires,
it keeps us in that state of humility.
Like, I think the second wewere like, I'm sanctified.
I've arrived.
This is a good, good moment.

(44:41):
Like in the very next breathyou're going to find out that you
haven't.
And just before we go intothat, I do want to register, like,
the listeners of this podcastwill know that I'm hard opposed to
the Enneagram.
And I have lots that I can sayabout that.
So I don't want to go downthat route.
Yeah, please, go ahead.
I think I totally know.
I know that.
I think, I think I've seen youpost about that before.
My whole point was.
Yeah, this.
The guy used that to say.

(45:02):
Correct.
You have this nose forweakness in people.
Yes.
And, you know, you mightdisagree with me on this, but I do
think whatever helps you growan awareness of your sin, like, could
be used possibly.
Well, it obviously can be usedto give license and be like wacky
pagan weird stuff.
But, well, like, at least theway this guy used it, it was like
he was convicting me of sinusing some tool.

(45:24):
So anyway, no, that's.
Sorry, bring up something Iknow you don't like on your podcast.
No, no, I'm glad, I'm gladthat you did because there is a moment,
like, so a part of my story islike, Bethel.
Bethel music.
Right.
And so when I was, when I was.
Before I was a Christian andthen I was a very, a very baby Christian,
two Bethel songs played a hugerole, especially before I became

(45:46):
a Christian.
There was one Bethel song thatwas like, oh, wow, Christian music
can sound like this.
And then after, when I was ababy Christian, the, before I was
even Christian for a year,there was another Bethel song that
came along at the moment thatI needed it.

(49:43):
Now I go back and I listen tothose songs.
Now I'm like, oh, wow, okay.
You know, and I can, I can seemany of the flaws in it.
And in the same way, like,that was something that you needed
to hear in that moment.
And I think that there arelots of personality tests out there
that can reveal people'svarious quirks and flaws, and I think
they're valid to that extent.
It's Just where people startassigning themselves to an identity
like I am.

(50:04):
This is such a powerful statement.
Whether It's I'm an 8 or I'man alcoholic, you know, or I'm.
I'm a.
I'm a survivor of X.
Once we start applying labelsto ourselves, things can get very
dangerous.
So I'm, I'm grateful that,that in that moment, that piece of
wisdom was able to hit andsend you spinning in a new direction.
And so.
Yeah, so, so that's.
I'm, I'm.

(50:24):
I'm thankful for that withoutwanting to go too far down, down
the path, but I do have toacknowledge it.
Yeah, no, I totally get that.
Yeah.
So let's move on then.
So, like, again, like, you'veillustrated the humility in this
really powerful way as thefoundation of the pyramid.
And not just the momentaryhumility, which is like, to recognize
when the blows come in, whenthe humility is not accepted, it

(50:48):
becomes humiliation.
Like, humiliation is forced humility.
Right.
So accept the humility when it happens.
But then the ongoing humilityto be like, yeah, I'm still kind
of that guy, you know, but notin a way that you're proud of it,
like, deal with it.
It's like, no, this issomething that I struggle.
So that's such a solidfoundation to build masculinity on
top of, because it justredefines how you relate to people

(51:09):
in your environment.
You're able to listen like theroyal you.
Not necessarily you you, but,you know, both of us.
Able to listen, able toreceive people, able to hear them,
able to give guidance.
Like, humility creates so muchspace for the other person, and so
many people feel so crowdedout by life that being a man who
can create, who can createspace for others is a huge blessing.

(51:29):
Blessing, yeah.
I do think the security thatcomes from a good gospel humility,
where you're going, I don'tneed this person to think something
about me.
I'm able to just be who Godmade me and where I'm at in my journey,
where I'm at in my walk, whereI'm at my maturity.
And I'm just free to love themwithout, like, needing love back

(51:51):
from them, per se.
That is a great type of personto be around, where they're able
to enjoy people, not use people.
It's like, whatever.
Uncling is like thatdifferentiated self where, like,
I know who I am in Christ, andtherefore, if.
If you don't like me, like,that's kind of sad, but it doesn't.
Like, it's not going to ruinmy day.
So I can, if you reject me, Igo like, well that's all right.

(52:15):
You know who didn't reject me?
The Lord.
And you know who's smarterthan the Lord?
Nobody.
You know, so what are yougoing to do?
And so there is a security ofpresence that brings that I think
is a true Jesus died for yoursins humility, not a self hating
humility.
And I think it also is likethe foundation that then leads you

(52:36):
to the other masculine virtues.
That is important to startthere because if you go to the discussion
about discipline, you starttalking about spiritual disciplines,
physical disciplines,relational disciplines, the habits
that shape us and form us andmake us that if you hate yourself
and you create a genius goingdiscipline, then body dysmorphia

(52:59):
is there waiting for you for sure.
If you hate yourself when youstart doing spiritual disciplines,
then you're going to have theangst of Martin Luther, who's never
good enough, never holy enoughand you're going to fast until you
have ulcers and it's going tonot go well.
If you think God doesn't loveme and I'm reading my Bible every
morning, you're going tomisread the Bible because that's
not the story of the scriptures.

(53:20):
And so the like selfimprovement or the self discipline
is probably a better bit morebiblical way of thinking about it.
But this idea like I want togrow, I want to steward my body,
my mind, my soul well, I wantto steward my finances well.
Like all these different typesof disciplines, when I'm doing it
from a position of gratitudeand security, then I'm able to do

(53:44):
it non anxiously.
It's not anal, it's not fussy,it's not.
If I don't do this, then myday's terrible.
If I buy some on Amazon, Ishouldn't have have, I'm not like,
oh, I have, I'm a terribleperson and I'm a, you know, a squanderer
of God's money.
Which may be true in a sense,but like you're able to go, I'm just
trying to steward well whatGod's given me both financially,

(54:08):
spiritually, emotionally, physically.
You know, I talk to guysregularly who are in the gym and
they don't like have a highview of themselves like as God's
son, made in God's image,saved by grace.
And, and you know what almostall of them have in common is they
think they're not big enough,they're not strong enough, they're

(54:28):
going to TRT to try to getthemselves bigger, which is a psychoactive
substance and it's affectingthe relationships.
Yeah, it certainly is.
Like if anybody, like all thePowerlifters and bodybuilders understand
that like a testosterone orsteroid enhanced man is as different
from most men as most men aredifferent from women.

(54:49):
Like if you kind of go, gowomen, men, steroid men, it creates
a different gap and it's justlike an enhancement.
It affects your thinking,you're relating your sleeping, it
affects the shape of your heart.
There's a couple bodybuildingguys I like because they're interesting,
but they're going, I've taken25 to 30 years off my life to do

(55:13):
this and they'd be in thatNietzsche in Ubermensch view.
They're like, and guess what,I don't care.
Because I'd rather have aheart attack at 52 and be jacked
the whole time than be skinnyand boring now and be wrinkly and
old then and like that.
You cannot think that andmaintain a view of biblical authority.

(55:36):
You can't.
Like the sixth commandment,thou shalt not murder includes I
think, think slow suicide bylifestyle, which might be like a
couch potato type thing, butit also includes artificially injecting
yourself with all types ofstuff that's going to prematurely
end your life.
And so you want to go to thegym and look good and be strong and

(56:00):
be healthy.
But if you don't go there outof a view of self respect as God's
son, going with a view ofstewarding the body, that mirror
will ruin your life and youwon't be able to see it well.
And I think it's same withpeople who get super fussy about
spiritual disciplines and it'slike an anxious exercise.

(56:22):
Not like they're communingwith the Lord, but they're just trying
to get it right.
And if they don't get itright, oh my gosh, there's like an
anxiety driven thing.
I'm going, no.
Like I set an alarm, I readthe Lord's word, I pray, I go to
the gym and take care of mybody because I work a desk job and
I have to.

(56:43):
But all this is done out oflike gratitude and stewardship, not
because I'm.
If I don't, then I'm not a manor something like that.
And so I think the disciplineone is big.
I do think the ordering ofvalues, the ordering of desires is
a big thing.
Especially like maybe in ourpart of the world where like the

(57:04):
wealth goes up and Hobbies,capacity goes up and people are too
busy for church because theygot 15 hobbies and they're too busy
to serve in church because wehad a long week with sports things
and you know, you have avacation home here and a vacation
home there and you, you'regoing, okay, what's like, do we really
believe in local church?
Do we really believe in the gospel?

(57:24):
Do we really, really believein this, the sacraments and the means
of grace?
Do we really believe that the,that the, the fellowship of the body
is valuable?
Do we really believe instirring one other up to 11 good
works?
Do we really believe?
And it's like, oh yeah, yeah,yeah, I believe that.
I believe that, that.
And so it's not like that thebelief is off, it's just wrongly
ordered.
And like they're going, yeah,that's on my top 10.

(57:46):
But it's like number nine.
And it's like, okay, sosimilar with like sexuality.
Like, do you really believethat pornography is sin?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, well let's go ahead andthrow off that sin which so easily
entangles.
Oh well, I mean, I think it'ssin, but I don't think it's like
that bad.
You know what, like, becauseeveryone has like sin that they would,

(58:10):
you know, like the idea oflike acceptable sins, you know, that's
like some of these thingsbecome that.
And so you don't, you lack thediscipline of going, will I like
job, make a vow to the Lord tonever look at a woman with lust.
Or I'm going like, well, I'mnot going to go that hard at it.
And you go, okay, discipline,the disciplining of desires, the

(58:30):
ordering of desires, likesexual stewardship, financial stewardship,
emotional stewardship,spiritual stewardship.
Trying to be very clear oflike, what are our stated values
versus our actual values andhow do they need to shift and change.
I think is one of thedisciplines a man has to think through

(58:50):
in terms of prioritization of things.
I'll say.
I think it was the end of last year.
So about 18 months ago now,someone told me what one of my asked
me what my New Year'sresolutions were.
And I said, I need to go tothe gym less.
I've been only man on earth tosay that.
Yeah, I'm like, it's just,that's an easy habit for me.

(59:11):
Alarm goes off, take a preworkout read, go to the gym.
The gym's like on my way tothe office.
It's convenient.
I have friends there now.
I see them.
We talk.
How's it going?
Like it's, it's become an easyhabit and I'm like, I need to like
skip the gym couple days aweek and like read more, pray more,
work more.

(59:31):
Because I just sensed like gymas a value was creeping up on the
list because it was easy,because it was like a, a flow.
It this, the rhythm createditself and going, I need a.
So I, you know, cut out acouple gym days to like do some more
deep reading, some deep praying.
And it was great, right?

(59:53):
And so I think this is one ofthose like John Calvin's idea of
like know thyself, you know,you gotta know where your values
are prone to getting out of whack.
And like that's different foryou than it is for me.
And so that discipline piece,I think if you don't begin that with
like a view of humility asGod's son, it's just a way to manipulate,

(01:00:15):
manipulate God and control yourself.
And a self esteem grab is whatdiscipline can become.
This is all so good because itarticulates so clearly the different
traps that men fall into.
And that's one of the hardestthings about talking about masculinity
today is that it's thequintessential example of ditches
on both sides of the road.

(01:00:35):
And you can point out one setof problems with men specifically
say, what about this set?
And then people are forced tosort of hopscotch back and forth
between the two and you neveractually get anywhere versus talking
about like, okay, let'sprovide a lens, a framework to view
this through where you can seeboth things as, as opposite ends
of a spectrum and you find away to calibrate in between.

(01:00:56):
I just think.
And humility is the way isagain, is the key to all of that
because you can be tooexcessive with your discipline or
you can be under disciplined.
And you have to understand,like you said, the ways that your
values are going to go out ofwhack, that shows up for myself.
Like, I love talking to people.
I find people incrediblyinteresting and I always have, have
and it's really easy for me togive away lots of time during my

(01:01:16):
week to show up on otherpeople's podcasts and stuff like
that.
And then I find the time to dothe stuff that only I can do is just,
it's just gone.
And I'm like, okay, I got toget my own values in calibration.
And so for you, that's the gym.
And if, if we can for just amoment, I really want to drill in
on the TRT issue because Ithink this is a way bigger problem
driving a lot more of theright wing extremism that we're seeing

(01:01:38):
in Christian circles thanpeople realize.
Like when, when I.
I challenge a lot of stuff on.
On X as.
As you know, but when Ichallenge TRT specifically, I've
had men that I've broken breadwith that were my friends in person.
I've spent time with their families.
They turned on me fast.
Like, I started questioningTRT and a guy that I knew that I'd

(01:01:58):
eaten with, spent time withsaid, you know, pardon my swearing.
He said, you sound like a.
And I was like, whoa, bro,like, we're friends, like.
And he just turned on me like that.
That.
And so when you say that it'sa psychoactive chemical.
Yeah, absolutely.
But guys are so resistant tohearing that.
Like, I'm just replacing thetestosterone that's been taken from
me.
Like, well, maybe that's true,but it's warping your mind, it's

(01:02:20):
warping your personality.
I don't recognize you anymore.
Not just physically, but Iguess spiritually.
And I've seen this so many times.
And it's something that Idon't think a lot of pastors or people
in the, in the reform world orin our relative sphere have any visibility
in because it seems so niche,but it's really not.
So maybe we can just drill inon that for just a moment.

(01:02:41):
Yeah, for sure.
So I have a couple MDendocrinologist friends who operate
hormone clinics.
And you know, they're.
I think each of them are 60 plus.
They might hear that and beoffended by it, but I don't know.
They're in that window.
And I've asked them, like, howdoes being a Christian change the

(01:03:03):
way you operate as anendocrinologist versus someone who's
maybe sub Christian or non Christian?
And one of the guys inparticular said, I will not put someone
on HRT or TRT unless theirspouse is also doing that.
Oh, wow.
Because it so changes the wayyou relate.

(01:03:24):
It so changes your sexual energy.
It's so changing your mood andmindset that it will ruin marriages
if I don't do that.
So he's so, he's like, that'slike one of my things as a Christian.
So I'm like, so if some couplein their 50s comes and like, oh,
and he's like tired, maybeeven has ED going on, is just like

(01:03:45):
a dragon, you know, and youtest his testosterone.
So tip like with the bellcurve of the medical community because
there's normal is like 300 and 900.
His is like 275 or somethinglike that.
Like, it's, it's liketechnically clinically low, but also
it's not like, yeah, inflaminghis heart valves.
He.
Yeah, I'd say, like, this issomething you and your wife have

(01:04:05):
to do together because I willnot compromise oneness for your sense
of well being.
And I think that was like,that was one hand.
Just illustrated to me theseverity of the psychoactive nature
of it.
I mean, and we do a lot ofthings that are psychoactive.
Caffeine is psychoactive.
So saying TRT is psychoactiveis not a radical statement, but saying

(01:04:29):
it's not psychoactive is aradical statement because you're
going, the reason you're doingit is for psychoactive benefit.
Like, you want more energy.
What do you think psychoactive is?
Like, it's that type of thing.
So that's the view.
I mean, I know test levelshave been dropping for a very long
time, and there's a lot offactors in that.

(01:04:49):
And we could talk about thatad nauseam for a long time time.
But I also talked to some guyswho want to go on trt and I'm like,
well, have you stoppeddrinking alcohol?
Have you worked on your sleep?
Have you cleaned up your diet?
Have you been hitting the gym?
Have you been all the thingsthat you can do to naturally boost

(01:05:10):
or improve on testosterone?
Oh, no, I'm not.
So there is an element ofsloth that is just a medicalized
paganism or going like, Idon't want to change my life.
I want to say the magic wordsand do the magic thing.
And then like, they want it tobe magic.
That's what they.
That what they want.

(01:05:30):
And so I'll say likewise,like, I've.
I have other friend, likeanother friend who's on trt and like
his.
He has like a tumor on hispituitary gland.
And so his test came back atlike 70 and he's getting heart inflammation
on his valves.
And it's like, can lead topremature death.
And.
And it's like, okay, this is avery level a medical situation.

(01:05:53):
This is not a guy who's like,I want my biceps bigger and my shirt's
tighter.
This isn't like, there's avery real medical thing for some
people that needs to be addressed.
Even some of my friends arelike firemen.
It's like their sleep is all.
It's like irreparably damagedbased on their vocation, like, serve
the public good.
And I Go, okay, so there'slike, I'm hesitant to call it sinful

(01:06:18):
because I don't know people's hearts.
And I don't think it's sinfulin every circumstance, but imprudent,
often laziness sometimes.
But I do think the way itaffects you in the way you relate,
the hostility, the anger, themood swing.
You know, people talk aboutwomen being more emotional.
I'm like, have you ever talkedto a moody guy?

(01:06:39):
Like, like, guys are soemotional, they're maybe differently
emotional.
But anger, depressed, moody,bad day, pouty.
Especially when they go ontrt, it's like they call it roid
rage for a reason, becauseit's a psychoactive substance.
And some people would say,well, TRT isn't steroids.
And I go, I think it bydefinition is.

(01:07:01):
It's an androgynous injected hormone.
And I.
It's not great.
And so I have some otherfriends who are bodybuilders who
are not Christians.
Like, maybe they're like kindof on the verge of becoming Christians,
but they've told me, like,they are addicted to steroids.
Like, we're trying to haveanother kid.
We can't have one because ofwhat I'm taking.
I don't know how to stop.

(01:07:22):
Like, the body dysmorphia islike too, it's too much, right?
And so, like I'm.
I'm finding myself having tolike counsel shepherd people through
putting down the needle forthe sake of loving their kids well,
loving their wife well, lovingtheir thing.
And so I do think it's a bitof a trap.

(01:07:43):
And especially when the motiveis the mirror.
That mirror will like, there'san Arnold Schwarzenegger documentary
on Netflix I watched a coupleyears ago, and he talked about how
even when he was Mr.
Olympia, he'd look in themirror and think, who's that fat,
scrawny skin, skinny loser who won?
And this is Arnold Schwarzenegger.
So if you think the mirror.

(01:08:05):
Yeah.
If you think that you're goingto like develop a healthy view of
self through the mirror at thegym, I'm telling you, it's a black
hole.
It will eat you alive.
And even the best lookingperson objectively, possibly in the
history of the world had bodydysmorphia while he was on the stage
winning his Mr.

(01:08:26):
Olympia thing.
And so I do think there is anover promise under delivered to all
types of sin.
And I think the kind of thevainglory to use the old seven deadly
sin or vice thing, the vainglory of it, it does harm people
and it compromises your healthand your relationships.

(01:08:46):
And I just think there's other ways.
If you're not doing it throughordinary means, you probably have
no business doing it.
And certainly if you're notdoing it medically supervised by
someone who has a regard foryou as a whole person, I just strongly,
strongly advise against it.
I'm so glad you said all of that.

(01:09:07):
Thank you so much.
Because I've seen men in mypersonal life that were.
They didn't look or weren'tliving the way that they wanted to,
and they got on TRT and theyhad a big burst of success, you know,
and their life started gettingmomentum and it was like, bro, you
are now hooked on that for life.
And then it escalated fromthere into bodybuilding and then

(01:09:30):
active steroids and, you know,wanting to compete and all that different
stuff.
And this, this friend,Christian, man, his personality changed
so radically that he becameunrecognizable in a very short time.
And it was very, very sad towatch for many reasons.
And I just watched that happen.

(01:09:50):
And then there was a period oftime where he went off of it and
he just deflated.
He just deflated like a balloon.
And he was worse off than hewas before he started.
And so it was really stuckbetween a rock and a hard place.
Like, either getting back onthis exogenous, you know, hormone

(01:10:12):
for life.
For life as.
As a young man, too.
Like, he wasn't in his 50s.
He was significantly youngerthan that, or you live in this kind
of diminished state where yourbody is no longer producing testosterone.
It will slowly work its wayback to it maybe to some degree.
And.
And like, I can understand ifa guy like you said is in his 50s.
You know, he's just draggingand not sleeping well and like, and

(01:10:34):
all of that, you know, allthings being equal, or he's had.
He has some sort of like,grade A medical condition, or he's
just so massively disrupted tosleep patterns like a fireman, where.
Yeah, okay, so we can see anactual medical cause for this intervention.
But when you have guys thatare in their young twenties that
are just getting on this stuffbecause they saw someone on Instagram

(01:10:55):
or TikTok do it, you know,they're barely not teenagers anymore.
And like, congratulations, youjust signed up for this, for life.
Why?
Oh, yeah, it's heart wrenching.
There's a guy I met at thegym, like, five or six months ago,
and he's my age, 34, and he'sbeen on testosterone for 20 years

(01:11:16):
because his high Schoolfootball coach put him on it and
you go.
And that's.
So some guys listening to thismay be like stuck on this stuff and
it's not really their fault.
Like they got pushed it on himand now it's just a bummer.
And I think it's worth sharingstories about that too that it's
pretty to hard, hard to comeback from.
And I do think like the youthobsessed, porn obsessed culture,

(01:11:40):
like there's just more of afear of aging and a disdain for aging
than there has been before.
Like the, the Bible calls grayhair a crown of glory.
And you know you're bald soyou don't have any of that crown
of glory.
But a little bit on my beard.
Yeah, yeah, I got some on the chin.
You know I say I have grayhair for about every elder meeting
I've been to.

(01:12:00):
Uh, but like I know it's easyto say as a young man right now,
but I do think one of the waysI aspire to be countercultural is
to age and not amen and notinject lift my way out of aging and
to, to become an elder whenI'm an elder and to look like one

(01:12:21):
and be okay with it and tocare about health span over beauty
span and try to have my values change.
And, and so something my wifeand I have talked about a bit like,
you know, we are just gettingto that time.
We're like, how are we goingto handle the next 30 years?
Because gravity and timealways wins.
What are we going to do?
And I do think there's analigning of values that needs to

(01:12:42):
happen on how we want toapproach aging, wrinkling, sagging,
because it's going to happenand there's a trap on believing that
you can prevent it forever.
And again, I do think there'sa lot of matter of conscience on
this.
I don't want to bind.
And I do think how peopleprocess that is they have to process

(01:13:07):
it personally.
And there is like a.
I don't want to speak beyondthese scriptures or bind the conscience,
but I also want to go, this isa cultural idol, broadly speaking
is the glorification ofappearance and beauty.
And we can't pretend like thatdoesn't bleed into our heart, mind
and soul.
Right.
The world wants to get into us.

(01:13:29):
Know we, the Babylon creepsinto the heart of Israel and America
creeps into the heart of the church.
That's just certainly true.
And so we're way more temptedto sin like our neighbors than we're
tempted to sin like peoplehalfway across the globe.
Yeah.
One of my, one of my closefriends, men named Jonathan, he's
been on the podcast a numberof times.

(01:13:49):
He gave me a great line aboutthis that I'll never forget.
He said, the glory of youngmen is their strength.
And as you age as a man, yourstrength is supposed to go from outward,
outwards to inwards.
Like as you become an olderman and you lose your outer strength,
you're supposed to gain yourinner strength.
And the glory of young womenis their beauty.
And as they age, their beautyis supposed to go from outwards to
inwards, meaning an outwardsexpression inwards.

(01:14:11):
And I really love that ideathat we're supposed to take what's
outer and internalize it as weget older.
Because, you know, I came intothe manosphere through what's called
the mythopoetic men'smovement, which is very heavily focused
on psychology and young andtrauma and all that different stuff.
But the one thing that I cansay, say is that it, it brought together
men of a variety of ages.
So there were 18 year old menon these retreats, up to 70 year

(01:14:32):
old men.
So here's the full spectrum ofthe masculine lifespan.
I think there may even been an80 year old man on one of them.
So here's the full spectrum ofthe masculine lifespan where no one
can just silo themselves intocollections of youth versus age.
It's like, no, this is actually.
If you should be blessedenough to be a man to live into your
80s, how are you going to dealwith that?

(01:14:52):
Are you always going to belooking back to when you were like
18 and awesome, or are yougoing to go into gracefully?
And since I saw that, it'ssomething that I've reflected on
living in such a way that Ican internalize, metabolize my life
experience so that when Ireach 80, Lord willing, I'm not just
an old man, but I'm an elder,that I've metabolized life experience
and can pass along wisdom tothose who want to hear it rather

(01:15:15):
than just, you know, an oldman who's looking back at his youth
and wishing or wondering whatcould have been.
And I think in our youthobsessed culture, which you very
rightly point out, that'sthrown out the window like middle
age, you're practically deadold man, man.
It's like, no, middle age is atime of deepening, a time of growth,
a time of a, a time ofmaturation and development to transition

(01:15:35):
to the next phase.
But so many guys are soterrified of it and they consider
themselves Dead, once theyturn, what, 30, 35 or 40, it's like,
no, that's the wrong way ofthinking about it.
In many ways, your life isjust beginning.
And that's a.
That's a wisdom that ourculture does not like at all.
Yeah, for sure.
Well, if nothing happens whenyou die, like if you're a nihilist,

(01:15:56):
then the, the way youmedicate, that is through heeding
hedonism.
It's like, well, you got toget it while you can.
And there's no vision forwisdom, maturity, or certainly no
vision for life after death.
You think about Christ enduredthe cross for the joy set before
him.
His capacity to do what washard and difficult was motivated

(01:16:19):
by the joy of obedience, thejoy of being with God.
And so if we think we're goingto age well and we don't have this
sense of well for the joy, thejoy of intimacy with the Lord.
The way that early churchthought about the wisdom literature
was very seasonal.
Like, the book of Proverbs waspresumed to be mostly a young man's
book.
Because your biggest problemwhen you're young is you're a fool

(01:16:41):
and you're going to fall forit and the women are going to seduce
you and you're going to be an idiot.
And like a lamb led to theslaughter, you're going to go all
at once to the woman who'sgoing to ruin your life.
It's like, that's Proverbs 7,my summary of it.
And there's all these, like,other, like, talk about foolishness.
And Basically, until you're40, you're considered a young man
and you're 40, foolish.
And I think even, like, whenPaul writes to Timothy, let no one

(01:17:02):
look down on you becauseyou're young.
Timothy was probably in hisearly 30s when he wrote that.
Oh, okay.
It was like, I rememberreading that when I was 15, being
like, yeah, nobody looked downon me because I'm young.
And it's like that probablylike when Paul's telling Timothy
you're a young man, he'sprobably in his early 30s.
And so Proverbs is like ayoung man's book.
Then you get like, theEcclesiastes was like more kind of

(01:17:24):
like middle age, middle aged,when, like, this point probably had
some worldly success.
You've accumulated some sex,money and power.
Like, Solomon has all thisstuff, and he's like, I got all the
things and vapor, vapor, allhis vapor.
It's like a mist.
It comes and it goes, andyou're kind of grappling with what
is the real meaning of life atmiddle age?

(01:17:46):
And then the old person bookwas Song of Songs, because you're
meant to, like, look forwardto consummation with God upon your
death.
And this idea of lookingforward to death is like the most
American thing you couldpossibly think about, like, going,
man, the best is yet to come.
When you're 98 years old, thebest is yet to come.

(01:18:06):
You got to be kidding me.
But yet, the best is alwaysyet to come, no matter what age you
are.
And it's just receiving life'sdifferent invitations to maturity
and recognizing that what ameaningful life consists of is different.
And I think the hypersexualyouth worship thing wants to absolutize

(01:18:26):
women when they're 20 and menwhen they're 30 or something like
that.
And everything's downhill foreverybody after whatever that arbitrary
age is.
I want to go.
No, the Christian says thebest is yet to come.
Always, always.
And your 40s are rich andgreat and different than your 30s.
And the 50s are rich and greatand different Than your 40s and the

(01:18:47):
Lord's in every season.
And so the fear of aging, Ithink, is part of what we need to
repent of.
Amen.
Amen.
I think there's so much fearof taking next steps in our lives.
Whether marriage, I think, isa big one.
Maybe we can speak about thisfor a minute.
I actually, I know that thereare a lot of people that are struggling
with finding, you know,finding partners to court, let's

(01:19:10):
say.
I know that that's a very real thing.
But I also think that there'sa very real hesitation to actually
meaningfully and sincerelyengage with it from the deepest down
level.
I've observed that there are alot of men and women that will disqualify
other good mates because theyrecognize that marriage is taking
them towards a verysignificant, significant one way
road of death to self marriageand childbearing especially.
And that's very much a form ofdeath, like your single life.

(01:19:33):
Trust me, I know.
Like, I'm engaged.
The wedding is, you know,about 40 days away at this point.
And so congrats, by the way.
Thank you very much.
I'm very, very excited.
Traveling up to visit hertomorrow, actually.
And I'm looking at this at mysingle life, which has been extended
beyond most men's.
And I'm looking at a verysignificant death to self.
And I'm excited.
And I'm also recognizing thatit's very real.

(01:19:55):
It's very, very real.
And, you know, not to go intowith with dread, but enthusiasm.
And not to, you know,reluctantly surrender the things
of youth, but to be gratefulfor them in the season that I have
them and trust, you know,trust in the time that I've remaining
and take that step.
And I think that there are somany, both men and women, that actually
on some level they will avoidor push people away that would otherwise

(01:20:17):
be good candidates becausethey fear that death to self as a
reflection of our large, ourculture's larger fear.
Fear of death in general.
Yeah, I think that's totally true.
There ends up being this likeidealism that is naive and it's self
protective at the same time.
Like, I, I went.
We had a, I think we hadprobably 60 high school seniors,

(01:20:39):
maybe 30 of them were, were,were boys this past year.
And I did some Q and A with them.
And one of the questions I gotwas about dating.
And they were asking for likedating advice and career advice and
things like that.
And they, they were, they'reonly asking like, how did you know
that your wife was the wifefor you?
Like, because.

(01:21:00):
And I was like, well, I, Ineeded to be like generally attracted
to her.
I think God uses ordinary means.
Yep.
Like, I don't, I don't want tomarry a woman and lie to her when
I tell her I think she's beautiful.
That's not good.
It's not good for anybody.
Not good for her, not good for me.
And so I'd be generallyattracted to her.
And I do think men especiallyneed to recognize that like their
tastes have largely beenshaped by evil pornography consumption.

(01:21:24):
And so that needs to besanctified and that needs to be repented
of, that needs to beprocessed, that needs to be worked
through.
This idea that people havetypes, I think is just wild consumer
culture and just weird.
And so I do think the more youcultivate purity, the more what's
attractive to you about otherpeople is holy.

(01:21:46):
And it's something that islike God ordered.
So I do think attractive thinggets kind of weirded out because
of how much pornography isshaped, especially Gen Z, you know,
Like I didn't have asmartphone till I was a freshman
in college, so I just missedthe boat on everyone having porn
in high school.
You know, like that was, itwas like the, the people right on

(01:22:07):
my heels who.
That was a.
You had to go throughadolescence with everyone at recess
having safari access.
So I missed that.
And I'm so thankful for it.
Is God.
So there's a generalattraction there has to like, you
want someone who's like, hasthe Same general worldview as you.
I don't think they need toagree with you on every finer point
of doctrine.
But like the meaning of life,the goal of life, the purpose of

(01:22:29):
life, the death andresurrection of Jesus, someone who
they can be equally yolked to,that you're going like, this person's
going to affect me a ton.
And you know, in the OldTestament there's a lot of like examples
of see what happens whenIsrael's kings marry foreign women.
The issue there isn't racism,it's idol worship.
You know, it's not the factthat they're foreigners, it's the
fact that foreigners worship idols.

(01:22:49):
That's the problem.
And things get really bad.
And so you want to be equally yoked.
Someone who believes what youbelieve, someone who's going to raise
your children in a worldviewcongruent with yours, that's a big
deal.
And when you contemplate that,and the third one I said was someone
who's low drama.
And when I said that, thewhole room was like, why?

(01:23:10):
Like that's the one we've been missing.
That's the thing we've beenlosing out on.
Because I think attractive andfollows Jesus is like kind of obviously,
obviously, at least it should be.
But what I meant by that is,you know, someone who's comfortable
in her own skin, who's notlike using you for self esteem, who's
not, you know, you know, the.

(01:23:31):
If you think about the kind ofcore masculine sins of like abuse
and abandonment or abuse andabdication, a lot of Paul's letters
talk about the core femininesins as like being busy by bodies
idle, not being productive.
And at least on the genderedlists of sins, you think about a
busybody, somebody who's notminding her own business, she's prying

(01:23:52):
herself in the business ofother people.
It's like reading Peoplemagazine and being preoccupied with
celebrity gossip and alwaysknowing what's going on in everybody's
life.
That's a high drama person.
And that doesn't go awayunless it goes away on purpose.
And so you really want someonewho's like, if you think about like,
if like the feminine nurturegoes awry when it's like nurturing

(01:24:16):
in environments that has nobusiness nurturing, that's like being
a busy body.
Like it's care gone, gone astray.
You know, if chivalry goneastray is abuse or abandonment, nurture
gone astray is busybodiness orlike coldness or like devouring mother
type stuff.
And so low drama was Mysummary word for a woman who's comfortable

(01:24:37):
in her own skin, who doesn't need.
And if you kind of like onthose three.
Actually, I think sometimesthe third one's the most rare.
It's the hardest to findbecause people have been so under
parented, so underfathered, sounder mothered, so under discipled
that if you can find a womanwho's just like, is confident in

(01:24:59):
God's love for her, confidentin the death and resurrection of
Jesus, confident in God'spurpose for her life, life, marry
her as fast as possible.
That's my, my general advice.
And that, that kind of like.
So we talked about themasculine virtues.
The other thing that as afollow up, I created a second pyramid
that I called the masculineroles, which were son, brother, maker,

(01:25:23):
husband, father.
Oh yes.
And so the foundation is son,because everyone is someone's son
without exception.
And there's a lot of data inthe proverbs about being a son.
And I said like, the taskthere is to, to be mindful of your
generational patterns andmaintain them or break them as necessary
and really with the idea ofbeing the type of man that a wise

(01:25:45):
father would be proud of, nota type of man that your father would
be proud of, but the type ofman that a wise father be proud of.
Because the proverbs arefilled with the idea of a foolish
son bringing shame to hisfather and bitterness to his mother.
And it's like sometimes ourmothers and fathers are dead, sometimes
they're total idiots,sometimes times they're wildly just

(01:26:05):
dysfunctional people.
And some people arepreoccupied with making their dad
proud, but their dad stinks.
And it's like, if your dad wasa wise man, what type of man would
you become to make him proud?
So that's the son piece.
And that's like, I think oneof the hardest pieces is.
And there's a sense in whichlike, no, my son is 5.
And now there's all this stuffabout like, now I have memories of

(01:26:29):
what my dad was like when Iwas five.
Five.
And so now there's like a typeof like generational work that you
never graduate from because,you know, like, how was my dad to
me when I was five?
Well, now I'm.
You've your instincts come outparenting they didn't know existed.
And I remember when I gotmarried, that was a big.
Right, okay, my parents had apretty good marriage, but it wasn't

(01:26:50):
perfect.
What do I want to do the same?
What do I want to do different?
And then you become a child,you Become a parent.
And it's like the same type of thing.
Then it's my child's an adult.
And then.
And so there's like processingthrough what generational patterns
to break and what ones tomaintain as part of that.
Then brothers like this, likefraternal appreciation and respect

(01:27:10):
that we're like genuine.
Like David and Jonathan.
These guys loved each other.
They were great.
They were definitely not gay,no matter how much liberal mainliners
want to say they were.
They just loved each other.
Like fraternal.
Good connection.
Then the text in 1 Timothy,Timothy where Paul says, treat younger
women as sisters in all purity.
Like, I want to interact withwomen like they're my sisters.

(01:27:31):
And in that sense it kind ofturns all lust into incest, which
is a whole separate motivationto like stay, fight for purity.
Then maker is like my theologyof work, like to subdue and have
dominion to tend to your garden.
Like when God puts Adam on theearth, says there was no man to work
the ground, and so he putsAdam on the earth to serve and protect
that garden.

(01:27:52):
And that's before he made Eve.
So there's something aboutmasculine work, masculine like sphere
keeping, garden tending that,you know, the subdued dominion, fruit
to multiply is said to bothAdam and Eve.
But the servant keep work.
The garden was said to just Adam.
So there's somethinginherently masculine about the work.
I do think the way the curseis assigned as well, the subdued

(01:28:13):
dominion is more cursed for Adam.
Like God tells Adam, by thesweat of your brow you'll provide.
But then he tells the woman.
In.
Pain, you shall bring forth children.
And so subdued dominion islike culture making work and they
share it together.
But Adam shares the brunt ofthe curse.
The fruitful multiply thingobviously takes both a man and a

(01:28:35):
woman, but the woman kind oftakes the brunt of that curse.
So it's like a shared task.
Both disparate effects of the curse.
So that's like the maker piece.
And then the husband is likereally be a.
Find a wife, take a wife,cherish her, nourish her.
Those Ephesians 5 words, Ithink are my two favorite biblical
words about what is a good husband.
Well, he cherishes, he treatsas precious and he nourishes, which

(01:28:58):
is like anticipating andfulfilling needs, as you know, which
is different from wife to wife.
And the father pieces, likewhat you said earlier, like, I want
to be in, even if I'm never inthe office of elder, I want to be
elder qualified.
I want to be multigenerational in my view of the Faith.
I obviously chiefly want to,like, like, love my kids, but then
beyond that, I want to be afather to the household of faith.

(01:29:21):
And so those are more like theroles that second pyramid, which
is so it said about the book.
So those are the nine chaptersin my book.
Humility, discipline,responsibility, chivalry, son, brother,
maker, husband, father.
They're kind of two pyramids.
And so I'm excited to bring itto the world.
It's not coming out for a longtime, but something about publishers
having goals and stuff, so.

(01:29:43):
But I'm excited.
Excited about it.
This is.
I hope everyone can hear howcomplete and informative and scriptural
and.
And directional the both ofthose frameworks are.
Like.
Like, I hear you describe them.
And they're like, yes, okay,that fits with everything that I've
learned in the manosphere, butI've learned in my life as well.
It fits into biblical categories.

(01:30:04):
And it's something that I canstart building on and acting on immediately
in all these different roles.
And I especially like how you're.
How you're unapologetic andsaying, man is not woman.
Right.
And that's like.
That's a sadly, acontroversial statement to make.
The observation, like, yeah,Eve didn't get her own garden.
You know, like, that's.
I don't remember that scene.
But it's so important to beable to differentiate men from women

(01:30:27):
today in.
In really clear ways that arecontroversial, difficult.
You know, I mean, for some,they are.
I.
I don't consider them that.
I don't consider them to be.
And.
And I think it dishonors bothmen and women when we pretend other
otherwise.
But what I like about boththese frameworks, and I think everyone
listening will agree, is like,yeah, okay, I can really do something
about that.
And I can apply that set ofconcepts to my life and start acting

(01:30:51):
in these various ways that aredistinctively masculine to improve
the quality of my life.
And so I appreciate the timeand thought and energy you've put
into developing them, becauseI think they're accurate and helpful.
Yeah, well, I appreciate thatit's chiefly out of personal need.
Like, I'm thinking, I have ason who's five.
I need to form him.

(01:31:11):
I need to shape him.
Like, the book will bededicated to Jay, my son.
You know, my.
My image and likeness.
And that's part of what'sterrifying about being a dad is I
pass on my image and likeness,which is partially faithful, partially
unfaithful to my child.
And so he will imitate my sin.
He will imitate Myrighteousness and.

(01:31:33):
But it's my job, job to do mybest to pass on the faith to him
and what it means to be a man,what it means to follow Jesus as
a man.
And so I've really developed alot of this, really thinking about
him.
Obviously he's not going toread the book when he's six, when
the book comes out.
But the concepts, I hope,translate to a little whiteboard
and we can talk about it.

(01:31:54):
And when he's more literate, Idon't know what, I don't know, age
development on literacy, 9 or11 or 12, I don't know.
Hopefully he'll be able toread it and appreciate it and it'll
sink into the soul of hisheart and energize him for his life.
Because I love that little kidright now.
But one day he's going to be aman and he will hopefully be a better

(01:32:15):
man than me.
And that's really what wasenergizing my soul as I was typing
all this out.
And it's so real how becominga husband and becoming a father,
father, just as a completereformulation of everything.
Like I'm experiencing that inmy own, in my own life as I'm approaching
that, just the ways my ownmind is changing and transforming

(01:32:36):
the way I think about myeveryday life, knowing that, you
know, that I'm engaged andI'll be.
And I'll be a husband and afather soon.
And so you know that youproduce this book, that you, you
crystallize all of yourknowledge into these frameworks so
that you can pass on somethingof value to your.
To your son, so you can raisehim up.
And the nurture and admonitionof the Lord, so how that shows up
in his everyday life as well,how shall we now live?

(01:32:58):
Is just.
It's a really beautiful story.
And I think that's what we'resupposed to do.
Maybe not everyone needs towrite a book about it, but it's like
not what is the financialinheritance that you're passing to
your son, but what is thespiritual practical inheritance that
you're passing on that willlast so long.
And I think there are so manymen that they don't think about that
because their fathers didn'tthink about that.
And so that generationalfather hunger gap under fatherlessness,

(01:33:22):
you know, is being filled bymen who maybe not in your case, like
your dad was around and youhad this good relationship with him,
but to be able to fill inthose gaps for other men that didn't
have that is just It's a realgift, especially in the Christian
world.
Like, there's a lot moreChristian writing about masculinity
than I think I thought there was.
And I have a lot of catchingup now that I've done all the manosphere
reading, but like, to put ittogether in that way I think will

(01:33:45):
be really useful for men.
Well, I hope so.
And your encouragement aboutit goes a long way because of your
history, your background.
And I do feel like, like yousaid, I've been kind of under red
in it.
I think it was last year yearI read a couple dozen books about
it because I was like, well,I'm about to write a book.
I better not say the samestuff everybody else is saying.
So, yeah, that was a move there.

(01:34:07):
But I appreciate your encouragement.
I appreciate you having me onyour podcast.
It's been a joy to get to knowyou and talk with you.
Will.
It means a lot you as well, Seth.
Thank you so much.
So where would you like tosend men to find out more about you
and what you do?
So I'm low active onInstagram, Seth Trout.
Um, I'm more active on xsethtrout t r o u t t my website,

(01:34:29):
seth trout.com I do write alot of articles.
You can check out the articles there.
I'm also selling a shirt rightnow that I just had designed.
I don't know when this comesout, but it's no deadbeat dads.
And I say, you know, a dad,it's a silverback with the baby gorilla.
And you know, I say the ABCsof fatherhood are affection, blessing

(01:34:49):
and correction.
And a deadbeat dad doesn'thave to leave his child.
He can also just withholdaffection, blessing and correction
from his child.
So it's kind of a fun shirt.
I had a buddy who has T shirtcompany going on.
Sethtrout.com Again, T R O U TT People tend to misspell my name
because Mike Trout and thefish Trout.
But that extra T on the end,you check it out there.

(01:35:11):
And that's basically all I gotgoing on.
Also, if you live in Southeastvalley of Arizona, Ironwood Church
coming by.
I'm around after service.
Love to.
Love to shake your hand andhear about what the Lord's doing
in your life.
Wonderful.
Thank you so much, Seth.
I'll send everyone there.
And I can't wait to check outthat shirt.
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks, Sam.

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