July 3, 2025 • 51 mins
Ask Nigel Rawlins a question or send feedback, click the link to text me.
This episode is a masterclass in career reinvention after 60. For professional women considering entrepreneurship, the path can seem filled with challenges, from overcoming age discrimination to navigating financial uncertainty.
Nigel talks with LinkedIn expert and veteran solopreneur Sue Ellson to create a practical roadmap for success.
Sue defines her "Geekster" identity—using technology to build a flexible career and reveals why your relationships are the most powerful asset you have to combat ageism and thrive.
She offers actionable strategies for a resilient transition, including her "job for now" concept for financial security and how to launch your business with minimal cost using LinkedIn.
About Sue Ellson
Sue Ellson is a highly regarded Australian LinkedIn specialist, author, and career development practitioner known for her expertise in helping individuals and businesses leverage digital tools for growth.
An independent consultant since 1994, she joined LinkedIn in 2003 and is recognised internationally as a leading expert on the platform. Sue is the author of five non-fiction books, including "Gigsters" and "LinkedIn for me and my career or business", and is passionate about empowering people of any age to build meaningful, independent careers.
Resources Mentioned
- Sue Ellson's Website: sueellson.com
- Sue Ellson's LinkedIn Profile:
linkedin.com/in/sueellson - For Sue's books, see her website or researchgate.net
Connect with Nigel Rawlins
website https://wisepreneurs.com.au/
Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/nigelrawlins/
Twitter https://twitter.com/wisepreneurs
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nigel Rawlins (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Wisepreneurs podcast.
Are you navigating a careerreinvention after 60 If you've
ever felt overlooked?
Or that it's too late to startyour own venture.
This episode's for you.
The reality is you are part ofthe fastest growing
entrepreneurial group inAustralia, but you also face a
unique set of challenges fromageism to financial uncertainty.
(00:25):
Today I'm thrilled to welcomeback LinkedIn expert Sue Elson.
Sue is a master of navigatingthe world of solo work and has
done so since 1994.
She offers a powerful, practicalroadmap for women who want to
build something of their own.
We discuss her brilliant job fornow strategy as a tool for
financial security and why yournetwork is the ultimate answer
(00:49):
to overcoming the feeling ofbeing invisible.
If you are ready to build asustainable and fulfilling next
chapter, Sue's wisdom is theperfect place to start.
Let's dive in.
Sue, welcome back to theWisepreneurs podcast.
This is your second appearanceand in our previous episode you
(01:09):
talked about resilience, theconcept of being employable, and
also you defined yourself as aGeekster.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about what it means to be a
Geekster?
Sue Ellson (01:19):
Well, yes, a Geekster is my definition of
somebody who uses technology toattract aligned gigs.
So it means that you do a lot ofdifferent things to get gigs.
It doesn't mean that you arepart of the gig economy.
It just means that you do a lotof different things.
And I often joke, after spending11 years in banking and moving
from Adelaide to Melbourne,getting a job, finding out I was
(01:42):
pregnant, losing that job.
I often define myself as nothaving had a real job since
1994.
So I think it's somebody who isable to support themselves with
whatever sort of work comes in,so it could be contract,
freelance portfolio career,could be a two days a week here
and three days a week there.
(02:02):
It's any combination ofanything.
So, but one of the essentialelements for me, having been
online since 2001, is usingtechnology to facilitate that
process of getting the gigs.
Nigel Rawlins (02:13):
That's what it's all about, and that's what we're
trying to encourage.
So one of the things that I'dlike to go deeper into today is
one of my, well, I call it acategory of what I focus on,
which is called networkedentrepreneurship.
And you are a perfect example ofa person who is an entrepreneur
and very connected into anetwork.
(02:35):
And, and those two worktogether.
It's basically about building abusiness through connections and
I think that's how we originallyconnected?
Sue Ellson (02:45):
Meredith.
Nigel Rawlins (02:46):
Fuller, who's been on the podcast three times,
and will come back on, and Ithink people are probably
beginning to realize, I do comeback to people and talk to them
again a year later, or maybe 50podcasts later.
I can't remember which one youwere on, but it doesn't really
matter anyway, but that's,that's part of the network.
And it's also finding out whatyou've been up to, which is what
(03:06):
I'm gonna ask a bit later.
So, building a business throughmeaningful connections.
Now, one of the things youmentioned last time, again, I, I
think this is an example of youwith your network connections.
You spoke about always beinggreen and growing.
So what new skills have you beencoming across in your green and
growing?
Sue Ellson (03:26):
Wow.
Uh.
I don't keep a catalog, Nigel, Ijust keep on trugging along.
One of the skills I've had toacquire this week is of all the
random things I search formyself online, on Google and on
Bing.
And I found out this week thatBing has de-indexed my
sueellson.com website, which isa pretty scary thought, because
(03:51):
I realize Bing's not the mostcommon search engine, but
definitely it is an importantsearch engine because anybody
acquiring a new Microsoftcomputer will automatically have
Bing as their preferred searchengine.
So I've had to go through theBing Webmaster backend and find
out all the things that were intheory wrong with my website, I
(04:11):
say that in inverted commas.
I've found some pretty scarythings that were not of my own
creation, so that makes methink, oh my goodness, perhaps
part of my website has beenhacked, but I can't prove that.
It could just be a glitch inprogramming of a plugin that's
come in and gone out.
But anyway, I.
truth be known, I'm fixing upall these errors on my website
(04:32):
that I didn't even know that Ihad.
So I've been able to use thetools of Bing Webmaster to find
those things, and I've actuallydecided to remove the tags from
my website, from the indexing insearch engines.
The tags are still on there, butI've done a bit of a cull of the
tags.
So yeah, very technicalquestions, but it's definitely
(04:53):
something that I've just had tobuckle down and work out.
But that said, I know thatthere's a couple of things I do
not understand that I'm going tohave to ask for help with.
And so what I'm doing is I'mworking on the things that I can
do first, and then anythingthat's left over at the end, I
will call in the cavalry and getsome additional help for, for
(05:14):
those things that I don'tunderstand.
So that's just one of theskills.
But yeah, I, I'm, I'm alwaysgreen and growing and one of the
comments that I heard recentlyis that some people are either
senile or dead of a similar age,and I think that really falls
down to the idea that you've,you've gotta keep learning and
digital competency is what weall need to be able to survive
(05:37):
in this world.
But back to your point aboutnetworking, I would say given
all the AI and all the tech thatjust keeps on barraging us at an
exponential rate, the only thingthat is going to help us survive
is not just a network, but therelationship we have with that
network.
Because obviously if you knowpeople and you can ask them,
(05:58):
then you get access toopportunities that you just
would not get just relying onthe tech to do it.
The tech will discriminate you,wipe you out, you know this
website glitch is prettyserious.
But the good news is if you dostill search for me on Bing, all
this other content that I've hadpublished about me still
appears.
So it's not as if I vanished offBing, but just my website
listing has vanished.
(06:19):
So yeah, who knows how longit'll take to fix.
Nigel Rawlins (06:22):
I look after about 18 websites, so, um, I'm
very, very careful aboutindexation and I am on Bing as
well, but Bing does sendvisitors to your website.
Have you tried AI to solve thatproblem?
Sue Ellson (06:35):
I do ask AI questions, and I did ask it
about this one, and it gave meall the stock standard crap
answers that everything elsedid.
So, no, it didn't give me theanswers, and I, I do long
prompts.
I don't just say, you know, whydid I get removed from Bing?
I did do a much longer promptquery, but no, it didn't gimme
the answer.
(06:55):
My website now has these randomH1 tags in it.
So you know, there there's noreason for those to be there.
I didn't put them there.
So some other tool that I'veused has, has put those H1s in
and so now I've gotta find, andit's not showing if I look at
the actual section.
So, yeah, you know, I've, I'vegotta do a lot more forensic
digging to find out what theproblem is.
(07:16):
But yeah, in the meantime, if Iwas relying that on that as my
sole source of income, I wouldcrash and burn, you know, really
fast.
And that's why we can't rely ontech.
We've, we've gotta use it andwe've gotta understand it, but
we also can't rely on it.
The relationships is what helps.
And for example, I had a clientyesterday, I haven't seen him
(07:36):
for probably two years, and justbecause I'm on LinkedIn and on
all my socials, and I updatethem at least once a week.
Those people who know me arereminded that I exist.
So when their requirement turnsup, I'm in their memory and
that's what gets me the gigs aswell.
So yeah, the tech is, is acombination factor.
Nigel Rawlins (07:56):
I don't think people realize if, if you're
going to work for yourself andoften on your own, there are
things like that that will popup and demand your attention.
They're frustrating.
Like, you know, I've justswitched to a new device so that
I can look people in the eye.
But I couldn't get my lightsworking this morning because I
(08:17):
changed my, uh, uh, wificonfiguration.
Anyway, I won't go into thedetails, but this is one of the
big issues about working foryourself is you're gonna have to
fiddle with IT.
And um, and obviously on thepodcast, one of the big issues
that I have all the time is myguest has to get their sound
working.
They have to get their visualside working.
(08:37):
And often, depending on howtechnical they are, it can take
20 minutes to get that right.
Sue Ellson (08:42):
Yeah.
Nigel Rawlins (08:43):
Before I can even start.
So, you know, one of the thingsabout working for yourself that
people do need to know is getthings set up properly the first
time.
Get good instructions.
And we'll talk a bit about thatwith you'cause you've worked
with a few people where you'vehelped them sort that side of it
out.
Okay.
Well let's move on a little bit.
So we talked about green andgrowing, but you also had that
(09:05):
thing about, inside yourself,and I hear this a lot with women
mostly, is the confidence andthe fear not having a real job.
Now, one of the things I try andaddress is women over 60 who've
maybe had a career and want tomove out and work for
themselves.
And I do get this a lot, thatconfidence is their biggest
(09:28):
issue.
So has your identity with theGigster evolved because you've
gotta work pretty hard to getthe work?
Sue Ellson (09:37):
Hmm.
Nigel Rawlins (09:37):
That's part of the evolution of moving out of
a, a job and to working foryourself.
So talk a little bit about that.
Has your gigster focus evolved?
Sue Ellson (09:47):
Yeah, definitely because over time the people who
need your services changesbecause often your service
offering changes as well.
So you find that you move intodifferent audiences.
And what I'm finding, becauseI've been in this world for such
a long time.
A lot of the people my age, andI'm about to turn 60, are
(10:10):
retiring because the average ageof retirement in Australia is
56.9, I think, or something likethat.
Slightly younger for women andslightly older for men.
So that means that I now eitherhave to work with a younger
cohort of people or I have tomake, make myself relevant to a
(10:30):
new network because those peopleare leaving the network of my
connection.
So, so that's been reallyinteresting.
So I've always gotta keepbuilding my network.
I've, I can never sort of juststay with the same network.
I've gotta keep doing that.
So one of the things that I'vealways maintained is a close
relationship in my localcommunity, so I'm always
(10:50):
involved with council events andlocal networks.
I'm always doing that.
I'm a member of variousprofessional associations and
I'll continue to do that, butI'm also thinking that we live
in a country that is still veryageist and even though I have
energy and enthusiasm ofsomebody much younger than
(11:11):
myself, and the willingness andcapability to do it I I have
found myself discriminatedagainst because of age.
So, to go back to your pieceabout confidence, I was working
with a person who had been in avery successful role for five
and a half years and decided itwas time to move on, and they
(11:32):
went to a role that they thoughtwas business development, that's
what they were promised.
Soon as they got there, theywere told it was sales.
So it lasted two weeks and thisperson was only 29.
So this is, yeah, you know,tricky.
But I know this person verywell, so I said to them, and
they had the support of theirpartner to, to go out and do
their own business, whichoriginally they'd said they were
(11:54):
never going to do, but nowthey've realized they want to do
it.
But I knew full well that thisperson was not prepared to go
straight from working full-timeto running their own business.
They wouldn't have the internalgrit, confidence and commitment
to be able to do that.
So I said, look, the best thingfor you to do is to get some
(12:16):
temporary work, a job for now.
And these job for nows arereally great options.
I wish people more people wouldunderstand that they're of huge
value.
So this person registeredthemselves on an online platform
that provides gigs on atemporary basis.
And they were approved withinthree days.
Got a job in an organization,was doing customer service full
(12:37):
time, and then the immediateurgency of earning a living and
having something to do every daywas fixed, resolved.
And so they then started aboutbuilding their business on a
very slow basis.
Now that role got extended, thenthey got offered a four day a
week job, so now they're doingtheir business one day a week.
And this other job four days aweek, and now it's six months
(12:59):
in, and the person's saying,look, I've gotta get more
clients from other placesbecause I need the next, but
they're doing it in stages.
And because I knew that theconfidence of your mind plays
tricks on you when you don'thave something to do all day,
one little seed thought canescalate into this humongous
disaster.
(13:19):
And all that happened wassomebody didn't ring you back in
five minutes and you know, allof a sudden it's a major
catastrophe in your life.
And I know that probably soundslike a wild exaggeration, but
that's what can happen when youare sitting on your own, without
IT support, without this andthat.
So, really, if you're going toembark on this journey, I would
(13:40):
really encourage you to have ajob for now on a part-time basis
just so that you had exposure toother people.
Were out and about.
And this is a person who hassomeone to come home to at
night.
Has lots of hobbies andinterest, participates in sport,
you know, it's not somebodywho's isolated, but I just knew
this person well enough to knowthat they wouldn't be able to
(14:01):
adjust going from a job intotheir own enterprise overnight.
It, it's unrealistic.
Nigel Rawlins (14:07):
You're totally right, it's the portfolio
career, you need to edge in.
Unless, of course I think theycan, um, contract back into the
organization they were with,which would be the ideal I think
to start with, so that you havegot some work.
But if you're gonna try it fromscratch, I think that that is
the best way to go.
You, you've gotta get some workand look, part-time work.
(14:31):
I, I mean, I, I got a bit burntout about seven or eight years
ago and I was sick of workingfrom home.
I still had all my clients, butI went out and got a little
part-time job and it was great.
I actually met local people, um,and it didn't pay too badly
either because especially ifyou've, now, I haven't done that
for several years now, but itwas a fantastic experience to
(14:53):
get out.
I really enjoyed that and Irecommend that to people.
You know, something completelydifferent that you've never done
before.
Sue Ellson (15:00):
Yes, and for this person it was a big bonus
because they'd had a number ofjobs where the culture in the
organization was terrible andfor the first time in their
entire career, and they'd beenworking since they were 14, that
this person said, I'm notleaving the job.
It takes me an hour and 20minutes to get there.
But the culture is so good, I'mstaying in this job until my
(15:23):
business is at a point where Idon't need it anymore.
So yeah, I was really impressedby that.
Nigel Rawlins (15:28):
That sounds fantastic.
Alright, now one of the thingsI'd like to get into is about
networked entrepreneurship.
My last guest, episode 70 wasintroduced to me by you, but you
worked with that person throughbeing introduced by another
person.
So this is the basis of whatnetworked entrepreneurship is
(15:50):
all about.
Can you walk us through thatsort of thing that happens with
you, that
Sue Ellson (15:56):
hmm.
Nigel Rawlins (15:56):
your networks that you've developed, somebody
gets introduced to you, and thenmaybe you introduce them onto
somewhere else like you did withme.
Sue Ellson (16:03):
Yep.
Yep.
Okay.
So this is just typical old wordof mouth, you know, and as
anybody in marketing knows, wordof mouth is the number one best
strategy for starting anybusiness beyond a website,
beyond social media, beyondadvertising, you know, it's word
of mouth and what is thedefinition of a business?
Somebody who pays you forsomething.
That's it, that's the definitionof a business.
(16:24):
So, I have a policy, my threefavorite words are from now on,
but, so if you haven't done thisbefore now, just do it from now
on.
Don't beat yourself up if youhaven't done it until now.
But I connect with every singleperson I meet online.
So, if I meet them in person, atext message, a phone call, I'm
at an event, a DM, whatever itis, I invite'them to connect
(16:47):
with me on LinkedIn.
And so I don't remember how Imet Dave, from Author to Audio,
but I did meet him somewhere.
Oh, no, sorry.
I do remember I was at a.
City of Boroondara event and hispartner was speaking and then I
got chatting to him afterwards.
So I connected with him onLinkedIn.
So that's how I first met Dave.
And then he was obviouslyproducing the audio book for
(17:10):
Laurie.
And so Laurie got to a pointwhere he knew he needed to
update his digital presence andbecause Dave had realized that
that's what I could do.
He introduced me to Laurie andaway we went.
And it's been amazing and I'veloved doing it.
And then Dave actuallyrecommended another one of his
(17:31):
clients to me.
So I've had two clients fromDave and now he's apparently got
somebody else who does the, thewhole shebang a different level.
So he is, he's passing thosereferrals onto someone else.
Perfectly fine.
No worries at all.
My policy has always been tohave a network, and I believe we
all need three networks in life,which is our personal, our
(17:52):
friends and family, ourprofessional, so we need to be
known in the industry as well asin our jobs, so that's why I'm
in these professionalassociations and I'm going to
events, I go to between one orfour events every week, either
online or in person.
And I try and meet at leastthree people at all of those
events.
And, and then your personalnetwork, which is you like
(18:15):
riding your bike, you likemartial arts, you know, you,
you've got, you can go to thoseplaces and people know you for
those activities.
So it means that if you have aterrible breakup in your family
and friends network and you loseyour income through your
professional network, you canstill go ride your bike and life
will be okay, or you know, catchup with your cycling buddies or
whatever.
(18:35):
And so that's the value of that.
But the benefit of me having hadthis policy of connecting with
everyone I meet is I now haveover 26,000 connections on
LinkedIn, over 30,000 followers.
And people will often say, oh,Sue, I met you eight years ago.
This seems to be some randomnumber.
But eight years ago they met me.
(18:56):
And now they've decided theywant LinkedIn help and so
they'll come to me.
So, so that policy of connectingonline and then maintaining the
relationship by posting andengaging, also online, uh, that
maintains the relationship.
And then when people are ready,they automatically come through
to me because they've done allthe due diligence and they've
seen me in action and they'veseen the results and they trust
(19:17):
me.
So, so that, that leads to thatopportunity.
Nigel Rawlins (19:20):
Well, I, I think that's a very important aspect
of business.
'cause one of the things is, it,it's, it's a word I don't like
is the hustle that you have toput that effort into things.
Um, you have to continuouslyseek work.
Now, obviously the ideal wouldbe that people seek you out,
that you are such an expert in aparticular niche, that you are
(19:42):
the go-to person.
But the rest of us, we might begeneralists or we might be, well
for example, you are a LinkedInexpert and that is your niche in
many ways.
But you can also do a bit morethan just that.
So what does your week look likein that regard, in terms of
(20:02):
seeking that work?
Sue Ellson (20:04):
Yes, well, a lot of the things that I go to are free
or low cost, so there's not ahuge financial expense for going
to a lot of these things, butthere is a time expense and, and
that is significant.
But I've never paid foradvertising.
I mean, I've done a littleexperiment like I promoted a
LinkedIn event recently andspent$40 on it just to battle
(20:26):
test the system.
It produces zero results.
This is another reason why Idon't pay for advertising.
Um, so, you know, I've done afew little experiments, but I
don't pay, but I, I do keepshowing up.
In person and online, and I havea motto of being friendly and
professional.
Now, if you and I are talkingprivately, then obviously I
(20:46):
might go into a little bit moredetail about something, but I
don't air my dirty laundry forwant of a better word, online.
Whereas I know a lot of people,of a different belief system
will say, it's okay to share mypersonal journey of how
difficult this was, or whathappened here, or what happened
there.
I don't believe that'snecessary.
I, I just like to focus onproviding amazing value because
(21:08):
I'm an educator at heart, somost of my work comes to me, but
it's because I've alreadypublished a lot of content on a
lot of places.
So it, it's not free work.
And then interestingly, onetime, I think it might've been
during COVID when just thingsevery, just, everything just
went crash.
And I, I sort of reduced some ofmy online activity and I noticed
(21:33):
how in only three weeks Ithought, oh, I feel like I'm,
I've missed the game.
You know, like, it, it wasreally sudden the, the sort of
the crash of coming away fromthis online world.
So you really have to maintainit and you have to be prepared
to show up on a pretty regularbasis.
Nigel Rawlins (21:51):
One of the points I was, I'd like to make there is
your whole week can't be clientpaid work.
It's like, you know the tradies,you want something done,
Sue Ellson (22:03):
Hmm
Nigel Rawlins (22:03):
they've gotta come out and quote.
They're not getting paid to dothat.
And the same with the personworking at home.
So, give us a hint.
How much time a week would youspend on the unpaid work that
you have to do in a business?
And it's not just marketingthat's unpaid, it's also the
admin
Sue Ellson (22:22):
Emails,
Nigel Rawlins (22:22):
and a whole lot.
Sue Ellson (22:24):
DMs, uh, comments on LinkedIn posts, you know,
whatever.
Uh, look, I, I would hate to addit up, Nigel, I don't know
exactly.
It's a lot.
The only thing I can say is it'san enormous source of joy and
inspiration for me to do it.
So it's a lot of hours, but it'snot for the fainthearted.
I'm an ex-banker, so if I workedon the rate of billable hours,
(22:47):
my billable or my hourly rate,if you spread out the number of
hours I do divided by theincome, whatever, it's probably
a lot lower than many wouldsuspect.
Uh, likewise with the plumber,they've got drive to the venue,
you know, they're not gonnabring the pipes to them.
It's a bit like the piano tuner.
I optimized a piano tuner'swebsite for their local area
because they didn't wanna bedriving to Geelong from St.
(23:10):
Kilda every time to tune apiano.
It would be a lot easier if theytuned pianos within 20 kilometer
radius of them.
So we optimized his business forthat 20 K radius.
So, yeah, it's, it's a lot oftime.
I, I hate to think.
The only thing is I have becomea little bit more selective
(23:31):
about the events that I go to,because a lot of them are time
wasters.
So a lot of the networkinggroups where you join and have
to pay a fee and turn up everyweek, going to those on a once
off basis is pointless.
You, you're not gonna get anyvalue out of that, but if you
can find three networks to go toon a regular basis so everybody
knows you as the X, Y, Z person,then, you know, that's gonna be
(23:54):
far better value and time spent.
But then there's other eventsthat I go to that I just go to
'cause I'm really interested.
So one was recently on How ToStart Your Own Podcast.
I was originally thinking aboutcreating a poems and poetry
podcast, but I've decided, youknow what, if I wanna reach
people with my poems, I can dothat much quicker in other ways.
So I've decided I'm not gonna doa podcast, but because this
(24:15):
event was being run by theMelbourne Press Club, I would be
meeting people in person and Iwould be going to RMIT
University in the city and Ithought I'm going, you know,
it's, it's something ofinterest.
So I see a lot of what I do ispart of my lifestyle rather than
just, you know, business ornon-business.
Nigel Rawlins (24:34):
Now, many of our listeners are over 60 and
they're considering,self-employment or setting up a
solo venture, they've got alifetime of experience.
I mean, especially if you're 60years old, you might have had
several jobs, family, a wholerange of things in your life.
And they may feel theirprofessional network is retired.
(24:55):
Just like you mentioned thatsome of your 60 year olds are
starting to retire.
So what are three practicalsteps that you might suggest to
them that they might like tolook at?
This problem about networksaging is a problem.
Now, you've addressed it in manyways by spreading yourself to
different age groups.
But let's have a think aboutthree things that they might be
(25:16):
able to do to get moving.
Sue Ellson (25:18):
Yeah, well firstly, if you're over sixty, you've
only ever had work as in a jobit is a huge mindset shift.
So I don't want anybody tounderestimate how different it
is to be you in your ownenterprise compared to a
workplace.
(25:38):
You have a differentmethodology.
You think if I work 10 hours, Ishould be paid for 10 hours.
It, it, it's not like that Inyour own business, there'll be
many, many hours where you maynot get any sort of income and
then one day you'll get athousand dollars and you'll
think it's Christmas, but youknow, that doesn't last.
It's only a once off thing.
So anything that you can do tofind other people who've either
(26:02):
done the, the transitionthemselves, or who have been in
their own enterprise for aperiod of time, you need to put
those people in your network andand be speaking to them on a
regular basis.
Now, whether that be a mentorrelationship or whether it be an
accountability partnershiprelationship, you really need to
manage that transition'causepsychologically it's a huge
difference.
(26:22):
I found this when I went fromWestpac to being in my own
business that I couldn't call ITdepartment.
I didn't have access toinformation.
I, I had to find answers foreverything myself.
And if you are used to leading ateam and getting the other
people in the team to do thework, this is a very different
(26:43):
process.
You can't just outsourceeverything.
You can't afford to outsourceeverything, even if it was going
off to a foreign country.
And then there's a culturaldifference, and that's a whole
other conversation.
So the first thing is you need aperson who's been through it to,
to saddle up with and ask allthose horrid questions, and say,
is it normal to feel like this?
You know, you definitely needthat person on your side.
(27:04):
The second thing is you need toavail yourself of existing
resources.
There are huge range ofresources put out by the
Victorian Government, you can goto your local library.
Librarians know the answer toeverything.
They know answers to be betterthings than Google does'cause
there's a lot of things that arenot on Google that a librarian
will find the answer for.
So you need to know where to getaccess to information and follow
(27:28):
through on those templates andmake sure that you've, you know,
you don't miss the basics,'causethere's a lot of basic things
that you can miss and you canautomatically assume that a lot
of things are worth doing andthey're, they're often not.
The third thing is you've gottabe across the tech at some
level, and I believe you canstart off a business, wait for
it with just a LinkedIn profile.
(27:49):
You don't need a website and 64social media channels.
What you need is a LinkedInprofile, so people Google you,
that information comes up.
You can talk all about yourvalue proposition.
And then you can connect withpeople, maintain your network.
You can get by without acustomer relationship management
system or a fancy accountingpackage.
You can just use LinkedIn andstart and get going.
(28:11):
'cause I'd much rather you buildthe business organically over
time rather than try and nail itand scale it from day one.
I mean, that's ridiculous.
So just start off really, reallysmall with your LinkedIn profile
and then as time goes on, buildup further from there.
Because I think a lot of peoplethink they've got to conquer
Mount Everest on day one, andthat's just not necessary.
(28:32):
And the perfect example of thiswas an academic I met, they came
along to a course I was teachingat the Center for Adult
Education on how to create awebsite.
Now they already had purchased awebsite for would you believe
this Nigel?
$20,000.
And it was a brochure websitethat didn't even work.
(28:52):
And she didn't know how to editthis client.
But this client had previouslybeen an academic at a
university.
And what they wanted to do isthey'd obviously got a package.
That's how they could affordthis ridiculous$20,000 website.
And what they wanted to do wasedit PhD papers.
So all they had to do was findsomebody studying a PhD, connect
(29:13):
with'em on LinkedIn and say, bythe way, I help people with
their PhDs and then move on tothe next person.
Would've been so easy to findthem.
Ask the person if they'd likesome help, and then move on to
the next person'cause you know,if they don't want help, fine,
just move on to the next one.
And they had a business, but no,they spent$20,000.
Now, if you've just made the bigleap and spent 20,000, how many
(29:36):
clients do you edit PhDs to getthat 20 grand back?
You know, it's, it's not a goodidea.
So keep your costs low, startsmall, but at minimum you have
to have a LinkedIn profile.
Nigel Rawlins (29:47):
I agree with that.
That's the interesting thing iscosts.
What do you think it would costto start a business?
I'll be honest, I've been goingabout 25 years I think now, and
I'm still spending a lot ofmoney each year on
subscriptions.
What do I do?
I've got subscriptions for awhole range of online courses.
You've got your phonesubscription, you've got
(30:08):
equipment, internet, you've gotall sorts of expenses.
Now there are a lot of freeresources around, so when you
start off, obviously, unlessyou're very lucky, you're not
necessarily gonna get workstraight away.
It could take several months,could take even a year.
So people have gotta be preparedto put a little bit of money in.
(30:29):
And for example, you've juststated how they could have saved
themselves$20,000.
They could have invested theirmoney, well, some of their money
with you.
What do you reckon about whatshould they do with money to
start with?
Sue Ellson (30:41):
Don't spend it.
Like, just don't spend it.
I mean, you'd be amazed at howmany things you can do without
spending the money.
And so that's why I say startoff with a LinkedIn profile and
then when you get some money,then pay for the next, uh, piece
of the puzzle and just make dowithout spending any money,
until you're making money out ofthe business with it.
Because if you've got reallyhigh overheads that's going to
(31:05):
affect it.
Now this person who started offthe new business, they have a
very specialized product andservice that they offer to
clients, and there's a softwaresystem that they can use to
facilitate transactions andthey've already had practice
with it.
So they've decided they're goingto make that investment to run
their business because to do itmanually with spreadsheets is,
(31:26):
is a ridiculous waste of time.
So if there's something likethat, that's mission critical
for what you are trying to do.
Sure, go for it.
But even your email newslettersubscriptions, you don't have to
pay until you get 500subscribers.
So there's a lot of things thatyou can start off at low cost.
The other thing I would suggestis don't go for the free version
of everything, for instance, youmight be able to create an email
(31:50):
newsletter and you might be ableto have 2000 subscribers for
free, but nobody on earth usesthe platform.
That emails all bounce and itdoesn't have any integrations to
any other software you might usein the future.
So you'd be far better offpaying a monthly fee that
integrates with everything else,and then, you know, knowing that
it will last today, tomorrow,next week, next month, next
(32:12):
year.
I'm risk averse being anex-banker, but I would say avoid
spending money on a lot of theseongoing costs because they can
add up very, very quickly.
But that said, you don't wannamake crazy mistakes and waste a
lot of time either.
So some quality, professionaladvice can help you save money.
(32:34):
I mean you spend more money onthe professional advice, but you
save more money on the, theefficiencies and, and not
wasting time.
The better systems that you'redeveloping.
I'll give you an example here,Nigel.
One of the best things I teachall of my clients and they hate
me for it with a passion, is toput all their passwords in an
Excel spreadsheet and that theyall bitch and complain and say
(32:56):
they don't wanna do it.
And I'm happy with my notebookand I've got different passwords
and I, I just reissue it.
I've got some must Last Passthing.
I don't care what it is.
They all complain.
They've all said it's been themost valuable thing for their
business is to have theirpasswords in one spot so that
they can, um, divvy them out asneeded.
Or change them as needed.
(33:17):
'cause it's, it's all in the onelocation.
So, yeah, there's things likethat if you do get professional
help, that can make asignificant difference to, to
the journey of going from, youknow, nothing to a, a business
of some sort.
Nigel Rawlins (33:31):
Yeah, I just wish our Australian dollar was, uh,
on par with the American
Sue Ellson (33:36):
Oh, that would make a huge difference.
Nigel Rawlins (33:38):
You'll find that a lot of subscriptions are in
American dollars, unfortunately.
And for Australia an Americandollar is about a dollar 50 or a
dollar 60 Australian,unfortunately.
So I, I just had to renew myonline calendar program, which
integrates with everything.
It was 200 American dollars.
It's insane.
So, but if you want to do anyonline learning, you are going
(33:59):
to have to spend at least ahundred US dollars or more.
Um, and that's the issue.
You have to continuously learnhow to use your software or find
a better software that will helpyou, um, streamline your work.
Alright, we've just talked aboutthe marketing side of it.
What about AI and what I call AIaugmented work.
(34:22):
How would you describe your workwith AI
Sue Ellson (34:25):
I'm always battle testing things all the time for
different reasons.
I, I went down the rabbit holeone night asking AI to evaluate
my poetry that I've hadpublished.
I've got over 150 poems on mywebsite, so there's enough data
there for them to play with.
And, you know, some of thequestions I got answers to were
confronting and inaccurate as itturns out, and others were, you
(34:47):
know, semi-helpful, but I thinkwhen you reach 60 plus, you have
a lot of knowledge that is waybeyond that term called lived
experience.
There are just so many thingsthat we've seen, done, tried,
and are aware of that AI justdoes not match up to.
(35:10):
And I have a friend who's alittle bit older than me who's
gone down the rabbit hole withAI and now believes the AI more
than me.
And that's the major concernthat I have because AI is a bit
like an echo chamber that tellsyou what you want to hear a lot
of the time, and it doesn'temploy the scientific method, it
(35:32):
employs the probability method,so the accuracy is not so great
and also, it doesn't sound likemy voice, but what I have found
it quite useful for is assessingand testing some of the things
that I do.
So sometimes I'll put somethingtogether and then I'll say, is
(35:53):
there anything else I could do?
And that has been really helpfulbecause it's, it's brought in
ideas that just wouldn'tnormally be in my common range.
And so I thought, oh yeah,that's a good one.
Oh, that was a waste of time.
Oh, no, that's, you know, 25years old or whatever it is.
I mean, I, I, I still evaluateit, so it's a, it's a helpful
adjunct in, in many things thatI do.
(36:13):
But I've actually found a lot ofthe times when I've prompted it
to do certain things, it getsnowhere near my level of
knowledge and understanding ofthe topics that I've done,
because I mean, I've beenworking on them for years, for
hours and hours a day, so howcould it expect to know that
kind of stuff?
And a lot of the stuff I'veacquired is not online.
Nigel Rawlins (36:34):
I find that as well.
I found ChatGPT is just, just abit wishy-washy lately.
It, I think it fluctuates.
I agree.
I think the thing about beingolder is that you have got a lot
of experience and you should beable to evaluate what you're
seeing.
I really beat up AI a lot and Iuse several of the different AI
(36:56):
platforms and I just shift andsometimes I'll challenge them
each.
And when I get to help me writean article, I then have to work
it like mad to, to, to come intomy voice.
You know, I'll say that sentenceis just too fluffy and that's
where you've got to be reallyquite strict with it, I think.
Sue Ellson (37:15):
I think you do because it's very seductive and
some of the way it presentsinformation is very seductive.
And it also makes it sound like,well, that's obvious and that's
what you should write.
And I remember working with oneclient and she, she has English
as a second language and I thinkshe could also be dyslexic.
So I think she's got a bit of areal nervousness about her
(37:37):
writing.
And so she wrote a piece of textthat she wanted to publish
somewhere.
I can't even remember what itwas, but she wrote it and then
she went through it withGrammarly and then she went
through it with MicrosoftCopilot and, and then I was
there as well.
So it had like four iterations.
By the end it was word perfectand revolting.
(37:57):
Like, it, it, it was justnothing like how she sounds, but
it was perfect.
And the amount of time we wastedwasn't necessary to finesse that
piece of writing to that extent.
Absolutely not.
And it was, it, it triggered offher insecurity.
And I think this is anotherproblem with AI.
It makes us believe that we arenot as smart as it is because
it, it sounds very impressive.
(38:19):
But we are as smart as we needto be.
And so yes, use it as a tool,but please don't rely on it.
And please, and, and this friendwho's gone down the rabbit hole
with it, turned around and said,I've asked it the most difficult
questions.
Give me the worst answer.
You know, tell me this, blah,blah, blah.
I, and I'm, I'm going to speakto my friend today so you know,
what questions should I ask myfriend and, and, and I'm
(38:41):
thinking, you've lost it.
You've, you've absolutely lostit.
And they're deluded.
And because they have a bit of alearning issue, this particular
person, I thought, um, this isactually quite dangerous.
So if anything, I'd say trustyour instincts because we've
been, we've been around theearth enough times, or the sun
(39:01):
or whatever it is, um, to toknow the difference between
what's real and what's not.
Nigel Rawlins (39:06):
Well, I think one of the interesting things you
said there was that youinterrogate it after you've done
something.
So what did I miss?
Or what could I do here?
And I think that's important.
What you're doing is you'rehaving a conversation with it.
The danger is that you aretrusting it on everything.
I, I wouldn't trust it oneverything because I'm horrified
by some of the rubbish I get.
(39:27):
And I do have to work it.
Alright, that's pretty good.
So, what else can we talk about?
Yes.
Cognitive vitality, andlongevity.
One of the things you spokeabout, uh, last time was if you
are working for yourself and,this is for anybody working for
yourself.
You've gotta look after yourbody and your wellness and also
(39:50):
your mind.
You, you need the mental clarityand you need the energy.
And we spoke about it on, on ourlast episode together.
Tell us more about what you aredoing to keep yourself
employable physically andmentally.
Sue Ellson (40:04):
Yeah, look, your physicality becomes much more
noticeable as you get older, Ithink.
And I think you fantasize aboutwhat you used to be able to do,
uh, but then if you reallyremember it, it wasn't
necessarily the case.
Like for instance, you mightsay, oh, I've forgotten where my
X, Y, Z is in the house.
(40:25):
But then if you think back towhen you were 25, you probably
forgot where it was then too.
But you automatically assume nowyou're getting dementia because
you forgot when you're a littlebit older.
I mean, everybody's forgettingstuff all the time.
I mean, it doesn't matterwhether you're younger or older.
So I think you've gotta be verycareful of the internal critic.
And I've started going to theSchool of Philosophy and I go
(40:48):
there once a week and I've donethe Wisdom Within Program, and
now our topic is happiness andapparently we cannot be what we
observe.
I don't know all these randomcomments I'm trying to get my
head around, uh, which I can'treally, but, what I found was
working on my own, I meet a lotof people, even you, I've met
several times now in person andonline, but there's big gaps
(41:10):
between that.
Whereas now by going to theschool of Philosophy, I'm seeing
the same people every week.
I'm finding that very, veryhelpful because you can go
deeper into a friendship orbusiness friendship or course
participant friendship withsomeone because you're seeing
them on a regular basis, so, sothat's been really, really
(41:32):
helpful for me.
I also catch up for a Chai withmy neighbor once a week.
We spend about two hourstogether.
So that's something again, I doevery single week.
Uh, unless, you know, either oneof us is completely unavailable,
but it's a different time everyweek.
I put myself on the dog sharewebsite, and now what I do is I
(41:53):
ride my bike from Canterbury toCamberwell, and then I walk
Alfie, the dog.
And of course I end up sittingin Jenny's couch and we have
another discussion, and thatgoes for a little while as well.
And she's coming to my birthdaycelebrations and when she goes
away, Alfie will be coming tostay here.
So I'm walking the dog and, andeven though I don't have a dog
and I don't want the commitmentof a dog and the expense of a
(42:15):
dog, and, you know, I stilltravel a bit with work, so yeah,
I, I can't, I don't wanna have adog for those reasons or a cat.
And yeah, so I'm doing a lot ofthings that keep me, and
particularly because I live onmy own, I need to remain
connected in, in multiple ways.
So that's one thing.
The other thing is it took meabout three years, but I got rid
(42:36):
of all processed food from mydiet.
In fact now I eat so clean thatI don't wanna go out for dinner
because I know the food is gonnabe cooked with something else.
So I don't have food allergies,but I just find I feel so good
eating good food that I don'twanna eat bad food anymore.
So, um, that's another thingthat I do and I would still like
(42:57):
to do slightly more exercise.
I thought that the dog walkingwould be something, but I really
need to up that a little bit.
So, yeah, I'm definitely lookingafter the mind a lot more than I
have.
I think I could still do alittle bit of improvement on the
physical side of things.
I, I've gone to bush walkinggroups at the end of last year,
but I don't wanna walk inpouring rain or boiling heat.
(43:19):
Um, so yeah, I, I choose shorteractivities.
I, I go through Eventbrite andHumanatix and other sites and I
book myself in for events, soI'm always doing a variety of
different activities.
So that gets me out and about,Hmm.
Nigel Rawlins (43:32):
Sounds like you move a lot more
Sue Ellson (43:35):
Yeah.
Nigel Rawlins (43:37):
and you're very lucky in a way that you don't
have any major health problemsbecause unfortunately, a lot of
women as they age, do have somehealth issues.
It's a good one about the foodtoo.
Uh, that's, that's my downfall,chocolate biscuits.
Sue Ellson (43:50):
I still like dark chocolate.
Nigel Rawlins (43:51):
Oh, well, I like white chocolate.
White chocolate macadamias.
I've just gotta stay away fromthem.
Okay, what else did I have inmind?
Okay, if somebody's listening tous and they're 60 or in their
sixties and they're sitting onthe fence, what advice would you
give them?
Sue Ellson (44:11):
What are they sitting on the fence about?
Nigel Rawlins (44:14):
I dunno, they might be worrying about, you
know, will anybody take meseriously or am I too old?
I suppose that's one issue.
Sue Ellson (44:25):
That's a good question.
So.
I remember meeting this personwho was very bitter and jaded
because they were an expert innutrition and they'd been
teaching for a long time andrunning cooking workshops and it
was all fantastic.
But they lost that regularteaching gig and then they got
themselves online.
(44:46):
And they were very angry about a20-year-old who goes on and puts
on a green smoothie on Instagramand thinks they're a
nutritionist.
'cause of course, in her mind,that's just not nutrition.
That's just a green smoothie.
So.
I tried to talk to this personabout, well, okay, so what are
you doing to promote yourselfwell, well actually she was
(45:08):
doing nothing.
So I thought, okay, so Ithought, alright, where's the
best place to start?
And the best place to start isusually with people 10 years
older, or younger than ourselvesbecause they know us at some
level.
We've had similar culturalexperiences, similar music
taste, you know, just, justgenerally these are people who
(45:30):
are more likely to relate to us.
Yes, I have a number of youngerclients in Australia and
overseas, so it's not as if Ican't relate to people who are
more than 10 years older oryounger than me.
I definitely can, but if you aregonna start somewhere, then do
that.
So then she realized that shehad to get face-to-face with
people again, because that wasthe only way she was going to
(45:53):
promote it.
And also she had to reach peoplewho wanted more than a green
smoothie, who wanted foodcombinations, who, who had
special dietary issues or.
They needed something else.
So she realized she wasn'tcompeting with the Instagram
green smoothie.
She was competing in a differentfield, and that's where she had
to go.
So that's how that worked.
(46:14):
So if you're sitting on thefence, you've gotta take sort of
a long, hard look at yourself.
There is free business mentoringavailable through your local
council so you can speak tothese people before you get your
idea off the ground.
Don't believe everythingeverybody else says though,
because you know.
The number of times people havesaid, do this or don't do that,
and I've done the exact oppositeand it's worked.
(46:35):
So, you can't believe everythingyou hear.
So speak to a minimum of threepeople.
Don't just speak to one and, youknow, crash and burn.
But get out there.
Go to local workshops that arerun by local councils and local
neighborhood houses and anythingin your community.
Just look up stuff that's closeto home and, and get yourself
(46:55):
out and about.
And start asking the question.
And remember, a business issomebody pays you for something.
So whatever it is, it doesn'treally matter.
Just start somewhere.
Nigel Rawlins (47:04):
Yep, that's it.
That's all it is.
You've gotta find something thatsomebody's prepared to pay for.
You know, I had a young fellowcome around and clean all the
concrete on our paths the otherday.
He was 22 years old and, uh,very happy, very bright boy, did
a beautiful job.
And I'm thinking 22 and he'srunning his own business.
(47:25):
And I thought, what's he gonnabe like when he is 42?
Sue Ellson (47:30):
that's right.
Nigel Rawlins (47:31):
Alright, so this has been a wonderful
conversation, again, you've beena fountain of knowledge here, so
how are people going to findyou?
Sue Ellson (47:41):
Well, I'm all over the interwebs.
Uh, but I guess the simplest oneis either sueellson.com or my
LinkedIn profile under SueEllson, E-L-L-S-O-N.
There's no I in the middle.
And, yeah, just, just reach outto me if you've got a question.
On my website you'll see I'vealways got events that are
coming up, but you can also seepast events.
You can listen to free webinarsand see that my first four books
(48:04):
are on researchgate.net, so youcan download them for free.
If you contact me from thispodcast, I'll happily send you
my fifth book, directly.
I'm more than happy to do that.
Just ask the question and I'malways happy to answer quick
questions via direct message oremail.
I always put that offer outbecause I remember contacting
(48:24):
Lifeline when I was doingresearch for my first website
and I said how many peoplecontact you because their
challenged by the consequencesof moving.
Oh, we stopped taking thosestatistics 12 months ago.
I said, oh, well that's not sogreat.
But they said so often peopledon't need to call Lifeline, but
if they know they can call, itgives them the confidence to
(48:45):
carry on with, with thechallenges of life, shall we
say.
Also another little comment I'dmake is if you are thinking
about doing something, pleasedon't listen to what everybody
else tells you.
There'll be a lot of people whowill say, it's not worth your
time, you'd be better off doingthis.
I have a friend who said, Sue,because your income went down,
(49:06):
you should apply for Centrelink,and then you could get funding
and you could be a personalcarer.
And, and I'm thinking, hang on aminute.
If I was living off a Centrelinkbenefit, first of all, it
wouldn't pay my bills.
And secondly, that is not a gooduse of my expertise.
I can help hundreds andthousands of people doing what I
do, whereas that would only letme help one person, uh, do
(49:27):
something.
So yeah, we've really gotta sortof think more broadly.
And if you've got health issues,I mean, I.
I have excellent health becauseI've had to maintain my health,
'cause I haven't had sick leave.
I haven't had holiday pay, Ihaven't had maternity leave or,
or parental leave as it's callednow.
I haven't had bereavement leave,any of those things since 1994.
(49:51):
I didn't even have half of thembefore 1994.
I only had holidays and rostereddays off.
So I've had to keep my healthwell.
So, make sure health is yournumber one priority because
that's the only thing we cannever get back.
And so yeah, I, I definitelyencourage you to, to make that a
priority.
Everything else kind of comessecond after that.
Nigel Rawlins (50:10):
That's fantastic.
Thank you.
Sue Ellson (50:12):
You're welcome Nigel.
Hello and welcome to the Wisepreneurs podcast.
Are you navigating a careerreinvention after 60 If you've
ever felt overlooked?
Or that it's too late to startyour own venture.
This episode's for you.
The reality is you are part ofthe fastest growing
entrepreneurial group inAustralia, but you also face a
unique set of challenges fromageism to financial uncertainty.
(00:25):
Today I'm thrilled to welcomeback LinkedIn expert Sue Elson.
Sue is a master of navigatingthe world of solo work and has
done so since 1994.
She offers a powerful, practicalroadmap for women who want to
build something of their own.
We discuss her brilliant job fornow strategy as a tool for
financial security and why yournetwork is the ultimate answer
(00:49):
to overcoming the feeling ofbeing invisible.
If you are ready to build asustainable and fulfilling next
chapter, Sue's wisdom is theperfect place to start.
Let's dive in.
Sue, welcome back to theWisepreneurs podcast.
This is your second appearanceand in our previous episode you
(01:09):
talked about resilience, theconcept of being employable, and
also you defined yourself as aGeekster.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about what it means to be a
Geekster?
Sue Ellson (01:19):
Well, yes, a Geekster is my definition of
somebody who uses technology toattract aligned gigs.
So it means that you do a lot ofdifferent things to get gigs.
It doesn't mean that you arepart of the gig economy.
It just means that you do a lotof different things.
And I often joke, after spending11 years in banking and moving
from Adelaide to Melbourne,getting a job, finding out I was
(01:42):
pregnant, losing that job.
I often define myself as nothaving had a real job since
1994.
So I think it's somebody who isable to support themselves with
whatever sort of work comes in,so it could be contract,
freelance portfolio career,could be a two days a week here
and three days a week there.
(02:02):
It's any combination ofanything.
So, but one of the essentialelements for me, having been
online since 2001, is usingtechnology to facilitate that
process of getting the gigs.
Nigel Rawlins (02:13):
That's what it's all about, and that's what we're
trying to encourage.
So one of the things that I'dlike to go deeper into today is
one of my, well, I call it acategory of what I focus on,
which is called networkedentrepreneurship.
And you are a perfect example ofa person who is an entrepreneur
and very connected into anetwork.
(02:35):
And, and those two worktogether.
It's basically about building abusiness through connections and
I think that's how we originallyconnected?
Sue Ellson (02:45):
Meredith.
Nigel Rawlins (02:46):
Fuller, who's been on the podcast three times,
and will come back on, and Ithink people are probably
beginning to realize, I do comeback to people and talk to them
again a year later, or maybe 50podcasts later.
I can't remember which one youwere on, but it doesn't really
matter anyway, but that's,that's part of the network.
And it's also finding out whatyou've been up to, which is what
(03:06):
I'm gonna ask a bit later.
So, building a business throughmeaningful connections.
Now, one of the things youmentioned last time, again, I, I
think this is an example of youwith your network connections.
You spoke about always beinggreen and growing.
So what new skills have you beencoming across in your green and
growing?
Sue Ellson (03:26):
Wow.
Uh.
I don't keep a catalog, Nigel, Ijust keep on trugging along.
One of the skills I've had toacquire this week is of all the
random things I search formyself online, on Google and on
Bing.
And I found out this week thatBing has de-indexed my
sueellson.com website, which isa pretty scary thought, because
(03:51):
I realize Bing's not the mostcommon search engine, but
definitely it is an importantsearch engine because anybody
acquiring a new Microsoftcomputer will automatically have
Bing as their preferred searchengine.
So I've had to go through theBing Webmaster backend and find
out all the things that were intheory wrong with my website, I
(04:11):
say that in inverted commas.
I've found some pretty scarythings that were not of my own
creation, so that makes methink, oh my goodness, perhaps
part of my website has beenhacked, but I can't prove that.
It could just be a glitch inprogramming of a plugin that's
come in and gone out.
But anyway, I.
truth be known, I'm fixing upall these errors on my website
(04:32):
that I didn't even know that Ihad.
So I've been able to use thetools of Bing Webmaster to find
those things, and I've actuallydecided to remove the tags from
my website, from the indexing insearch engines.
The tags are still on there, butI've done a bit of a cull of the
tags.
So yeah, very technicalquestions, but it's definitely
(04:53):
something that I've just had tobuckle down and work out.
But that said, I know thatthere's a couple of things I do
not understand that I'm going tohave to ask for help with.
And so what I'm doing is I'mworking on the things that I can
do first, and then anythingthat's left over at the end, I
will call in the cavalry and getsome additional help for, for
(05:14):
those things that I don'tunderstand.
So that's just one of theskills.
But yeah, I, I'm, I'm alwaysgreen and growing and one of the
comments that I heard recentlyis that some people are either
senile or dead of a similar age,and I think that really falls
down to the idea that you've,you've gotta keep learning and
digital competency is what weall need to be able to survive
(05:37):
in this world.
But back to your point aboutnetworking, I would say given
all the AI and all the tech thatjust keeps on barraging us at an
exponential rate, the only thingthat is going to help us survive
is not just a network, but therelationship we have with that
network.
Because obviously if you knowpeople and you can ask them,
(05:58):
then you get access toopportunities that you just
would not get just relying onthe tech to do it.
The tech will discriminate you,wipe you out, you know this
website glitch is prettyserious.
But the good news is if you dostill search for me on Bing, all
this other content that I've hadpublished about me still
appears.
So it's not as if I vanished offBing, but just my website
listing has vanished.
(06:19):
So yeah, who knows how longit'll take to fix.
Nigel Rawlins (06:22):
I look after about 18 websites, so, um, I'm
very, very careful aboutindexation and I am on Bing as
well, but Bing does sendvisitors to your website.
Have you tried AI to solve thatproblem?
Sue Ellson (06:35):
I do ask AI questions, and I did ask it
about this one, and it gave meall the stock standard crap
answers that everything elsedid.
So, no, it didn't give me theanswers, and I, I do long
prompts.
I don't just say, you know, whydid I get removed from Bing?
I did do a much longer promptquery, but no, it didn't gimme
the answer.
(06:55):
My website now has these randomH1 tags in it.
So you know, there there's noreason for those to be there.
I didn't put them there.
So some other tool that I'veused has, has put those H1s in
and so now I've gotta find, andit's not showing if I look at
the actual section.
So, yeah, you know, I've, I'vegotta do a lot more forensic
digging to find out what theproblem is.
(07:16):
But yeah, in the meantime, if Iwas relying that on that as my
sole source of income, I wouldcrash and burn, you know, really
fast.
And that's why we can't rely ontech.
We've, we've gotta use it andwe've gotta understand it, but
we also can't rely on it.
The relationships is what helps.
And for example, I had a clientyesterday, I haven't seen him
(07:36):
for probably two years, and justbecause I'm on LinkedIn and on
all my socials, and I updatethem at least once a week.
Those people who know me arereminded that I exist.
So when their requirement turnsup, I'm in their memory and
that's what gets me the gigs aswell.
So yeah, the tech is, is acombination factor.
Nigel Rawlins (07:56):
I don't think people realize if, if you're
going to work for yourself andoften on your own, there are
things like that that will popup and demand your attention.
They're frustrating.
Like, you know, I've justswitched to a new device so that
I can look people in the eye.
But I couldn't get my lightsworking this morning because I
(08:17):
changed my, uh, uh, wificonfiguration.
Anyway, I won't go into thedetails, but this is one of the
big issues about working foryourself is you're gonna have to
fiddle with IT.
And um, and obviously on thepodcast, one of the big issues
that I have all the time is myguest has to get their sound
working.
They have to get their visualside working.
(08:37):
And often, depending on howtechnical they are, it can take
20 minutes to get that right.
Sue Ellson (08:42):
Yeah.
Nigel Rawlins (08:43):
Before I can even start.
So, you know, one of the thingsabout working for yourself that
people do need to know is getthings set up properly the first
time.
Get good instructions.
And we'll talk a bit about thatwith you'cause you've worked
with a few people where you'vehelped them sort that side of it
out.
Okay.
Well let's move on a little bit.
So we talked about green andgrowing, but you also had that
(09:05):
thing about, inside yourself,and I hear this a lot with women
mostly, is the confidence andthe fear not having a real job.
Now, one of the things I try andaddress is women over 60 who've
maybe had a career and want tomove out and work for
themselves.
And I do get this a lot, thatconfidence is their biggest
(09:28):
issue.
So has your identity with theGigster evolved because you've
gotta work pretty hard to getthe work?
Sue Ellson (09:37):
Hmm.
Nigel Rawlins (09:37):
That's part of the evolution of moving out of
a, a job and to working foryourself.
So talk a little bit about that.
Has your gigster focus evolved?
Sue Ellson (09:47):
Yeah, definitely because over time the people who
need your services changesbecause often your service
offering changes as well.
So you find that you move intodifferent audiences.
And what I'm finding, becauseI've been in this world for such
a long time.
A lot of the people my age, andI'm about to turn 60, are
(10:10):
retiring because the average ageof retirement in Australia is
56.9, I think, or something likethat.
Slightly younger for women andslightly older for men.
So that means that I now eitherhave to work with a younger
cohort of people or I have tomake, make myself relevant to a
(10:30):
new network because those peopleare leaving the network of my
connection.
So, so that's been reallyinteresting.
So I've always gotta keepbuilding my network.
I've, I can never sort of juststay with the same network.
I've gotta keep doing that.
So one of the things that I'vealways maintained is a close
relationship in my localcommunity, so I'm always
(10:50):
involved with council events andlocal networks.
I'm always doing that.
I'm a member of variousprofessional associations and
I'll continue to do that, butI'm also thinking that we live
in a country that is still veryageist and even though I have
energy and enthusiasm ofsomebody much younger than
(11:11):
myself, and the willingness andcapability to do it I I have
found myself discriminatedagainst because of age.
So, to go back to your pieceabout confidence, I was working
with a person who had been in avery successful role for five
and a half years and decided itwas time to move on, and they
(11:32):
went to a role that they thoughtwas business development, that's
what they were promised.
Soon as they got there, theywere told it was sales.
So it lasted two weeks and thisperson was only 29.
So this is, yeah, you know,tricky.
But I know this person verywell, so I said to them, and
they had the support of theirpartner to, to go out and do
their own business, whichoriginally they'd said they were
(11:54):
never going to do, but nowthey've realized they want to do
it.
But I knew full well that thisperson was not prepared to go
straight from working full-timeto running their own business.
They wouldn't have the internalgrit, confidence and commitment
to be able to do that.
So I said, look, the best thingfor you to do is to get some
(12:16):
temporary work, a job for now.
And these job for nows arereally great options.
I wish people more people wouldunderstand that they're of huge
value.
So this person registeredthemselves on an online platform
that provides gigs on atemporary basis.
And they were approved withinthree days.
Got a job in an organization,was doing customer service full
(12:37):
time, and then the immediateurgency of earning a living and
having something to do every daywas fixed, resolved.
And so they then started aboutbuilding their business on a
very slow basis.
Now that role got extended, thenthey got offered a four day a
week job, so now they're doingtheir business one day a week.
And this other job four days aweek, and now it's six months
(12:59):
in, and the person's saying,look, I've gotta get more
clients from other placesbecause I need the next, but
they're doing it in stages.
And because I knew that theconfidence of your mind plays
tricks on you when you don'thave something to do all day,
one little seed thought canescalate into this humongous
disaster.
(13:19):
And all that happened wassomebody didn't ring you back in
five minutes and you know, allof a sudden it's a major
catastrophe in your life.
And I know that probably soundslike a wild exaggeration, but
that's what can happen when youare sitting on your own, without
IT support, without this andthat.
So, really, if you're going toembark on this journey, I would
(13:40):
really encourage you to have ajob for now on a part-time basis
just so that you had exposure toother people.
Were out and about.
And this is a person who hassomeone to come home to at
night.
Has lots of hobbies andinterest, participates in sport,
you know, it's not somebodywho's isolated, but I just knew
this person well enough to knowthat they wouldn't be able to
(14:01):
adjust going from a job intotheir own enterprise overnight.
It, it's unrealistic.
Nigel Rawlins (14:07):
You're totally right, it's the portfolio
career, you need to edge in.
Unless, of course I think theycan, um, contract back into the
organization they were with,which would be the ideal I think
to start with, so that you havegot some work.
But if you're gonna try it fromscratch, I think that that is
the best way to go.
You, you've gotta get some workand look, part-time work.
(14:31):
I, I mean, I, I got a bit burntout about seven or eight years
ago and I was sick of workingfrom home.
I still had all my clients, butI went out and got a little
part-time job and it was great.
I actually met local people, um,and it didn't pay too badly
either because especially ifyou've, now, I haven't done that
for several years now, but itwas a fantastic experience to
(14:53):
get out.
I really enjoyed that and Irecommend that to people.
You know, something completelydifferent that you've never done
before.
Sue Ellson (15:00):
Yes, and for this person it was a big bonus
because they'd had a number ofjobs where the culture in the
organization was terrible andfor the first time in their
entire career, and they'd beenworking since they were 14, that
this person said, I'm notleaving the job.
It takes me an hour and 20minutes to get there.
But the culture is so good, I'mstaying in this job until my
(15:23):
business is at a point where Idon't need it anymore.
So yeah, I was really impressedby that.
Nigel Rawlins (15:28):
That sounds fantastic.
Alright, now one of the thingsI'd like to get into is about
networked entrepreneurship.
My last guest, episode 70 wasintroduced to me by you, but you
worked with that person throughbeing introduced by another
person.
So this is the basis of whatnetworked entrepreneurship is
(15:50):
all about.
Can you walk us through thatsort of thing that happens with
you, that
Sue Ellson (15:56):
hmm.
Nigel Rawlins (15:56):
your networks that you've developed, somebody
gets introduced to you, and thenmaybe you introduce them onto
somewhere else like you did withme.
Sue Ellson (16:03):
Yep.
Yep.
Okay.
So this is just typical old wordof mouth, you know, and as
anybody in marketing knows, wordof mouth is the number one best
strategy for starting anybusiness beyond a website,
beyond social media, beyondadvertising, you know, it's word
of mouth and what is thedefinition of a business?
Somebody who pays you forsomething.
That's it, that's the definitionof a business.
(16:24):
So, I have a policy, my threefavorite words are from now on,
but, so if you haven't done thisbefore now, just do it from now
on.
Don't beat yourself up if youhaven't done it until now.
But I connect with every singleperson I meet online.
So, if I meet them in person, atext message, a phone call, I'm
at an event, a DM, whatever itis, I invite'them to connect
(16:47):
with me on LinkedIn.
And so I don't remember how Imet Dave, from Author to Audio,
but I did meet him somewhere.
Oh, no, sorry.
I do remember I was at a.
City of Boroondara event and hispartner was speaking and then I
got chatting to him afterwards.
So I connected with him onLinkedIn.
So that's how I first met Dave.
And then he was obviouslyproducing the audio book for
(17:10):
Laurie.
And so Laurie got to a pointwhere he knew he needed to
update his digital presence andbecause Dave had realized that
that's what I could do.
He introduced me to Laurie andaway we went.
And it's been amazing and I'veloved doing it.
And then Dave actuallyrecommended another one of his
(17:31):
clients to me.
So I've had two clients fromDave and now he's apparently got
somebody else who does the, thewhole shebang a different level.
So he is, he's passing thosereferrals onto someone else.
Perfectly fine.
No worries at all.
My policy has always been tohave a network, and I believe we
all need three networks in life,which is our personal, our
(17:52):
friends and family, ourprofessional, so we need to be
known in the industry as well asin our jobs, so that's why I'm
in these professionalassociations and I'm going to
events, I go to between one orfour events every week, either
online or in person.
And I try and meet at leastthree people at all of those
events.
And, and then your personalnetwork, which is you like
(18:15):
riding your bike, you likemartial arts, you know, you,
you've got, you can go to thoseplaces and people know you for
those activities.
So it means that if you have aterrible breakup in your family
and friends network and you loseyour income through your
professional network, you canstill go ride your bike and life
will be okay, or you know, catchup with your cycling buddies or
whatever.
(18:35):
And so that's the value of that.
But the benefit of me having hadthis policy of connecting with
everyone I meet is I now haveover 26,000 connections on
LinkedIn, over 30,000 followers.
And people will often say, oh,Sue, I met you eight years ago.
This seems to be some randomnumber.
But eight years ago they met me.
(18:56):
And now they've decided theywant LinkedIn help and so
they'll come to me.
So, so that policy of connectingonline and then maintaining the
relationship by posting andengaging, also online, uh, that
maintains the relationship.
And then when people are ready,they automatically come through
to me because they've done allthe due diligence and they've
seen me in action and they'veseen the results and they trust
(19:17):
me.
So, so that, that leads to thatopportunity.
Nigel Rawlins (19:20):
Well, I, I think that's a very important aspect
of business.
'cause one of the things is, it,it's, it's a word I don't like
is the hustle that you have toput that effort into things.
Um, you have to continuouslyseek work.
Now, obviously the ideal wouldbe that people seek you out,
that you are such an expert in aparticular niche, that you are
(19:42):
the go-to person.
But the rest of us, we might begeneralists or we might be, well
for example, you are a LinkedInexpert and that is your niche in
many ways.
But you can also do a bit morethan just that.
So what does your week look likein that regard, in terms of
(20:02):
seeking that work?
Sue Ellson (20:04):
Yes, well, a lot of the things that I go to are free
or low cost, so there's not ahuge financial expense for going
to a lot of these things, butthere is a time expense and, and
that is significant.
But I've never paid foradvertising.
I mean, I've done a littleexperiment like I promoted a
LinkedIn event recently andspent$40 on it just to battle
(20:26):
test the system.
It produces zero results.
This is another reason why Idon't pay for advertising.
Um, so, you know, I've done afew little experiments, but I
don't pay, but I, I do keepshowing up.
In person and online, and I havea motto of being friendly and
professional.
Now, if you and I are talkingprivately, then obviously I
(20:46):
might go into a little bit moredetail about something, but I
don't air my dirty laundry forwant of a better word, online.
Whereas I know a lot of people,of a different belief system
will say, it's okay to share mypersonal journey of how
difficult this was, or whathappened here, or what happened
there.
I don't believe that'snecessary.
I, I just like to focus onproviding amazing value because
(21:08):
I'm an educator at heart, somost of my work comes to me, but
it's because I've alreadypublished a lot of content on a
lot of places.
So it, it's not free work.
And then interestingly, onetime, I think it might've been
during COVID when just thingsevery, just, everything just
went crash.
And I, I sort of reduced some ofmy online activity and I noticed
(21:33):
how in only three weeks Ithought, oh, I feel like I'm,
I've missed the game.
You know, like, it, it wasreally sudden the, the sort of
the crash of coming away fromthis online world.
So you really have to maintainit and you have to be prepared
to show up on a pretty regularbasis.
Nigel Rawlins (21:51):
One of the points I was, I'd like to make there is
your whole week can't be clientpaid work.
It's like, you know the tradies,you want something done,
Sue Ellson (22:03):
Hmm
Nigel Rawlins (22:03):
they've gotta come out and quote.
They're not getting paid to dothat.
And the same with the personworking at home.
So, give us a hint.
How much time a week would youspend on the unpaid work that
you have to do in a business?
And it's not just marketingthat's unpaid, it's also the
admin
Sue Ellson (22:22):
Emails,
Nigel Rawlins (22:22):
and a whole lot.
Sue Ellson (22:24):
DMs, uh, comments on LinkedIn posts, you know,
whatever.
Uh, look, I, I would hate to addit up, Nigel, I don't know
exactly.
It's a lot.
The only thing I can say is it'san enormous source of joy and
inspiration for me to do it.
So it's a lot of hours, but it'snot for the fainthearted.
I'm an ex-banker, so if I workedon the rate of billable hours,
(22:47):
my billable or my hourly rate,if you spread out the number of
hours I do divided by theincome, whatever, it's probably
a lot lower than many wouldsuspect.
Uh, likewise with the plumber,they've got drive to the venue,
you know, they're not gonnabring the pipes to them.
It's a bit like the piano tuner.
I optimized a piano tuner'swebsite for their local area
because they didn't wanna bedriving to Geelong from St.
(23:10):
Kilda every time to tune apiano.
It would be a lot easier if theytuned pianos within 20 kilometer
radius of them.
So we optimized his business forthat 20 K radius.
So, yeah, it's, it's a lot oftime.
I, I hate to think.
The only thing is I have becomea little bit more selective
(23:31):
about the events that I go to,because a lot of them are time
wasters.
So a lot of the networkinggroups where you join and have
to pay a fee and turn up everyweek, going to those on a once
off basis is pointless.
You, you're not gonna get anyvalue out of that, but if you
can find three networks to go toon a regular basis so everybody
knows you as the X, Y, Z person,then, you know, that's gonna be
(23:54):
far better value and time spent.
But then there's other eventsthat I go to that I just go to
'cause I'm really interested.
So one was recently on How ToStart Your Own Podcast.
I was originally thinking aboutcreating a poems and poetry
podcast, but I've decided, youknow what, if I wanna reach
people with my poems, I can dothat much quicker in other ways.
So I've decided I'm not gonna doa podcast, but because this
(24:15):
event was being run by theMelbourne Press Club, I would be
meeting people in person and Iwould be going to RMIT
University in the city and Ithought I'm going, you know,
it's, it's something ofinterest.
So I see a lot of what I do ispart of my lifestyle rather than
just, you know, business ornon-business.
Nigel Rawlins (24:34):
Now, many of our listeners are over 60 and
they're considering,self-employment or setting up a
solo venture, they've got alifetime of experience.
I mean, especially if you're 60years old, you might have had
several jobs, family, a wholerange of things in your life.
And they may feel theirprofessional network is retired.
(24:55):
Just like you mentioned thatsome of your 60 year olds are
starting to retire.
So what are three practicalsteps that you might suggest to
them that they might like tolook at?
This problem about networksaging is a problem.
Now, you've addressed it in manyways by spreading yourself to
different age groups.
But let's have a think aboutthree things that they might be
(25:16):
able to do to get moving.
Sue Ellson (25:18):
Yeah, well firstly, if you're over sixty, you've
only ever had work as in a jobit is a huge mindset shift.
So I don't want anybody tounderestimate how different it
is to be you in your ownenterprise compared to a
workplace.
(25:38):
You have a differentmethodology.
You think if I work 10 hours, Ishould be paid for 10 hours.
It, it, it's not like that Inyour own business, there'll be
many, many hours where you maynot get any sort of income and
then one day you'll get athousand dollars and you'll
think it's Christmas, but youknow, that doesn't last.
It's only a once off thing.
So anything that you can do tofind other people who've either
(26:02):
done the, the transitionthemselves, or who have been in
their own enterprise for aperiod of time, you need to put
those people in your network andand be speaking to them on a
regular basis.
Now, whether that be a mentorrelationship or whether it be an
accountability partnershiprelationship, you really need to
manage that transition'causepsychologically it's a huge
difference.
(26:22):
I found this when I went fromWestpac to being in my own
business that I couldn't call ITdepartment.
I didn't have access toinformation.
I, I had to find answers foreverything myself.
And if you are used to leading ateam and getting the other
people in the team to do thework, this is a very different
(26:43):
process.
You can't just outsourceeverything.
You can't afford to outsourceeverything, even if it was going
off to a foreign country.
And then there's a culturaldifference, and that's a whole
other conversation.
So the first thing is you need aperson who's been through it to,
to saddle up with and ask allthose horrid questions, and say,
is it normal to feel like this?
You know, you definitely needthat person on your side.
(27:04):
The second thing is you need toavail yourself of existing
resources.
There are huge range ofresources put out by the
Victorian Government, you can goto your local library.
Librarians know the answer toeverything.
They know answers to be betterthings than Google does'cause
there's a lot of things that arenot on Google that a librarian
will find the answer for.
So you need to know where to getaccess to information and follow
(27:28):
through on those templates andmake sure that you've, you know,
you don't miss the basics,'causethere's a lot of basic things
that you can miss and you canautomatically assume that a lot
of things are worth doing andthey're, they're often not.
The third thing is you've gottabe across the tech at some
level, and I believe you canstart off a business, wait for
it with just a LinkedIn profile.
(27:49):
You don't need a website and 64social media channels.
What you need is a LinkedInprofile, so people Google you,
that information comes up.
You can talk all about yourvalue proposition.
And then you can connect withpeople, maintain your network.
You can get by without acustomer relationship management
system or a fancy accountingpackage.
You can just use LinkedIn andstart and get going.
(28:11):
'cause I'd much rather you buildthe business organically over
time rather than try and nail itand scale it from day one.
I mean, that's ridiculous.
So just start off really, reallysmall with your LinkedIn profile
and then as time goes on, buildup further from there.
Because I think a lot of peoplethink they've got to conquer
Mount Everest on day one, andthat's just not necessary.
(28:32):
And the perfect example of thiswas an academic I met, they came
along to a course I was teachingat the Center for Adult
Education on how to create awebsite.
Now they already had purchased awebsite for would you believe
this Nigel?
$20,000.
And it was a brochure websitethat didn't even work.
(28:52):
And she didn't know how to editthis client.
But this client had previouslybeen an academic at a
university.
And what they wanted to do isthey'd obviously got a package.
That's how they could affordthis ridiculous$20,000 website.
And what they wanted to do wasedit PhD papers.
So all they had to do was findsomebody studying a PhD, connect
(29:13):
with'em on LinkedIn and say, bythe way, I help people with
their PhDs and then move on tothe next person.
Would've been so easy to findthem.
Ask the person if they'd likesome help, and then move on to
the next person'cause you know,if they don't want help, fine,
just move on to the next one.
And they had a business, but no,they spent$20,000.
Now, if you've just made the bigleap and spent 20,000, how many
(29:36):
clients do you edit PhDs to getthat 20 grand back?
You know, it's, it's not a goodidea.
So keep your costs low, startsmall, but at minimum you have
to have a LinkedIn profile.
Nigel Rawlins (29:47):
I agree with that.
That's the interesting thing iscosts.
What do you think it would costto start a business?
I'll be honest, I've been goingabout 25 years I think now, and
I'm still spending a lot ofmoney each year on
subscriptions.
What do I do?
I've got subscriptions for awhole range of online courses.
You've got your phonesubscription, you've got
(30:08):
equipment, internet, you've gotall sorts of expenses.
Now there are a lot of freeresources around, so when you
start off, obviously, unlessyou're very lucky, you're not
necessarily gonna get workstraight away.
It could take several months,could take even a year.
So people have gotta be preparedto put a little bit of money in.
(30:29):
And for example, you've juststated how they could have saved
themselves$20,000.
They could have invested theirmoney, well, some of their money
with you.
What do you reckon about whatshould they do with money to
start with?
Sue Ellson (30:41):
Don't spend it.
Like, just don't spend it.
I mean, you'd be amazed at howmany things you can do without
spending the money.
And so that's why I say startoff with a LinkedIn profile and
then when you get some money,then pay for the next, uh, piece
of the puzzle and just make dowithout spending any money,
until you're making money out ofthe business with it.
Because if you've got reallyhigh overheads that's going to
(31:05):
affect it.
Now this person who started offthe new business, they have a
very specialized product andservice that they offer to
clients, and there's a softwaresystem that they can use to
facilitate transactions andthey've already had practice
with it.
So they've decided they're goingto make that investment to run
their business because to do itmanually with spreadsheets is,
(31:26):
is a ridiculous waste of time.
So if there's something likethat, that's mission critical
for what you are trying to do.
Sure, go for it.
But even your email newslettersubscriptions, you don't have to
pay until you get 500subscribers.
So there's a lot of things thatyou can start off at low cost.
The other thing I would suggestis don't go for the free version
of everything, for instance, youmight be able to create an email
(31:50):
newsletter and you might be ableto have 2000 subscribers for
free, but nobody on earth usesthe platform.
That emails all bounce and itdoesn't have any integrations to
any other software you might usein the future.
So you'd be far better offpaying a monthly fee that
integrates with everything else,and then, you know, knowing that
it will last today, tomorrow,next week, next month, next
(32:12):
year.
I'm risk averse being anex-banker, but I would say avoid
spending money on a lot of theseongoing costs because they can
add up very, very quickly.
But that said, you don't wannamake crazy mistakes and waste a
lot of time either.
So some quality, professionaladvice can help you save money.
(32:34):
I mean you spend more money onthe professional advice, but you
save more money on the, theefficiencies and, and not
wasting time.
The better systems that you'redeveloping.
I'll give you an example here,Nigel.
One of the best things I teachall of my clients and they hate
me for it with a passion, is toput all their passwords in an
Excel spreadsheet and that theyall bitch and complain and say
(32:56):
they don't wanna do it.
And I'm happy with my notebookand I've got different passwords
and I, I just reissue it.
I've got some must Last Passthing.
I don't care what it is.
They all complain.
They've all said it's been themost valuable thing for their
business is to have theirpasswords in one spot so that
they can, um, divvy them out asneeded.
Or change them as needed.
(33:17):
'cause it's, it's all in the onelocation.
So, yeah, there's things likethat if you do get professional
help, that can make asignificant difference to, to
the journey of going from, youknow, nothing to a, a business
of some sort.
Nigel Rawlins (33:31):
Yeah, I just wish our Australian dollar was, uh,
on par with the American
Sue Ellson (33:36):
Oh, that would make a huge difference.
Nigel Rawlins (33:38):
You'll find that a lot of subscriptions are in
American dollars, unfortunately.
And for Australia an Americandollar is about a dollar 50 or a
dollar 60 Australian,unfortunately.
So I, I just had to renew myonline calendar program, which
integrates with everything.
It was 200 American dollars.
It's insane.
So, but if you want to do anyonline learning, you are going
(33:59):
to have to spend at least ahundred US dollars or more.
Um, and that's the issue.
You have to continuously learnhow to use your software or find
a better software that will helpyou, um, streamline your work.
Alright, we've just talked aboutthe marketing side of it.
What about AI and what I call AIaugmented work.
(34:22):
How would you describe your workwith AI
Sue Ellson (34:25):
I'm always battle testing things all the time for
different reasons.
I, I went down the rabbit holeone night asking AI to evaluate
my poetry that I've hadpublished.
I've got over 150 poems on mywebsite, so there's enough data
there for them to play with.
And, you know, some of thequestions I got answers to were
confronting and inaccurate as itturns out, and others were, you
(34:47):
know, semi-helpful, but I thinkwhen you reach 60 plus, you have
a lot of knowledge that is waybeyond that term called lived
experience.
There are just so many thingsthat we've seen, done, tried,
and are aware of that AI justdoes not match up to.
(35:10):
And I have a friend who's alittle bit older than me who's
gone down the rabbit hole withAI and now believes the AI more
than me.
And that's the major concernthat I have because AI is a bit
like an echo chamber that tellsyou what you want to hear a lot
of the time, and it doesn'temploy the scientific method, it
(35:32):
employs the probability method,so the accuracy is not so great
and also, it doesn't sound likemy voice, but what I have found
it quite useful for is assessingand testing some of the things
that I do.
So sometimes I'll put somethingtogether and then I'll say, is
(35:53):
there anything else I could do?
And that has been really helpfulbecause it's, it's brought in
ideas that just wouldn'tnormally be in my common range.
And so I thought, oh yeah,that's a good one.
Oh, that was a waste of time.
Oh, no, that's, you know, 25years old or whatever it is.
I mean, I, I, I still evaluateit, so it's a, it's a helpful
adjunct in, in many things thatI do.
(36:13):
But I've actually found a lot ofthe times when I've prompted it
to do certain things, it getsnowhere near my level of
knowledge and understanding ofthe topics that I've done,
because I mean, I've beenworking on them for years, for
hours and hours a day, so howcould it expect to know that
kind of stuff?
And a lot of the stuff I'veacquired is not online.
Nigel Rawlins (36:34):
I find that as well.
I found ChatGPT is just, just abit wishy-washy lately.
It, I think it fluctuates.
I agree.
I think the thing about beingolder is that you have got a lot
of experience and you should beable to evaluate what you're
seeing.
I really beat up AI a lot and Iuse several of the different AI
(36:56):
platforms and I just shift andsometimes I'll challenge them
each.
And when I get to help me writean article, I then have to work
it like mad to, to, to come intomy voice.
You know, I'll say that sentenceis just too fluffy and that's
where you've got to be reallyquite strict with it, I think.
Sue Ellson (37:15):
I think you do because it's very seductive and
some of the way it presentsinformation is very seductive.
And it also makes it sound like,well, that's obvious and that's
what you should write.
And I remember working with oneclient and she, she has English
as a second language and I thinkshe could also be dyslexic.
So I think she's got a bit of areal nervousness about her
(37:37):
writing.
And so she wrote a piece of textthat she wanted to publish
somewhere.
I can't even remember what itwas, but she wrote it and then
she went through it withGrammarly and then she went
through it with MicrosoftCopilot and, and then I was
there as well.
So it had like four iterations.
By the end it was word perfectand revolting.
(37:57):
Like, it, it, it was justnothing like how she sounds, but
it was perfect.
And the amount of time we wastedwasn't necessary to finesse that
piece of writing to that extent.
Absolutely not.
And it was, it, it triggered offher insecurity.
And I think this is anotherproblem with AI.
It makes us believe that we arenot as smart as it is because
it, it sounds very impressive.
(38:19):
But we are as smart as we needto be.
And so yes, use it as a tool,but please don't rely on it.
And please, and, and this friendwho's gone down the rabbit hole
with it, turned around and said,I've asked it the most difficult
questions.
Give me the worst answer.
You know, tell me this, blah,blah, blah.
I, and I'm, I'm going to speakto my friend today so you know,
what questions should I ask myfriend and, and, and I'm
(38:41):
thinking, you've lost it.
You've, you've absolutely lostit.
And they're deluded.
And because they have a bit of alearning issue, this particular
person, I thought, um, this isactually quite dangerous.
So if anything, I'd say trustyour instincts because we've
been, we've been around theearth enough times, or the sun
(39:01):
or whatever it is, um, to toknow the difference between
what's real and what's not.
Nigel Rawlins (39:06):
Well, I think one of the interesting things you
said there was that youinterrogate it after you've done
something.
So what did I miss?
Or what could I do here?
And I think that's important.
What you're doing is you'rehaving a conversation with it.
The danger is that you aretrusting it on everything.
I, I wouldn't trust it oneverything because I'm horrified
by some of the rubbish I get.
(39:27):
And I do have to work it.
Alright, that's pretty good.
So, what else can we talk about?
Yes.
Cognitive vitality, andlongevity.
One of the things you spokeabout, uh, last time was if you
are working for yourself and,this is for anybody working for
yourself.
You've gotta look after yourbody and your wellness and also
(39:50):
your mind.
You, you need the mental clarityand you need the energy.
And we spoke about it on, on ourlast episode together.
Tell us more about what you aredoing to keep yourself
employable physically andmentally.
Sue Ellson (40:04):
Yeah, look, your physicality becomes much more
noticeable as you get older, Ithink.
And I think you fantasize aboutwhat you used to be able to do,
uh, but then if you reallyremember it, it wasn't
necessarily the case.
Like for instance, you mightsay, oh, I've forgotten where my
X, Y, Z is in the house.
(40:25):
But then if you think back towhen you were 25, you probably
forgot where it was then too.
But you automatically assume nowyou're getting dementia because
you forgot when you're a littlebit older.
I mean, everybody's forgettingstuff all the time.
I mean, it doesn't matterwhether you're younger or older.
So I think you've gotta be verycareful of the internal critic.
And I've started going to theSchool of Philosophy and I go
(40:48):
there once a week and I've donethe Wisdom Within Program, and
now our topic is happiness andapparently we cannot be what we
observe.
I don't know all these randomcomments I'm trying to get my
head around, uh, which I can'treally, but, what I found was
working on my own, I meet a lotof people, even you, I've met
several times now in person andonline, but there's big gaps
(41:10):
between that.
Whereas now by going to theschool of Philosophy, I'm seeing
the same people every week.
I'm finding that very, veryhelpful because you can go
deeper into a friendship orbusiness friendship or course
participant friendship withsomeone because you're seeing
them on a regular basis, so, sothat's been really, really
(41:32):
helpful for me.
I also catch up for a Chai withmy neighbor once a week.
We spend about two hourstogether.
So that's something again, I doevery single week.
Uh, unless, you know, either oneof us is completely unavailable,
but it's a different time everyweek.
I put myself on the dog sharewebsite, and now what I do is I
(41:53):
ride my bike from Canterbury toCamberwell, and then I walk
Alfie, the dog.
And of course I end up sittingin Jenny's couch and we have
another discussion, and thatgoes for a little while as well.
And she's coming to my birthdaycelebrations and when she goes
away, Alfie will be coming tostay here.
So I'm walking the dog and, andeven though I don't have a dog
and I don't want the commitmentof a dog and the expense of a
(42:15):
dog, and, you know, I stilltravel a bit with work, so yeah,
I, I can't, I don't wanna have adog for those reasons or a cat.
And yeah, so I'm doing a lot ofthings that keep me, and
particularly because I live onmy own, I need to remain
connected in, in multiple ways.
So that's one thing.
The other thing is it took meabout three years, but I got rid
(42:36):
of all processed food from mydiet.
In fact now I eat so clean thatI don't wanna go out for dinner
because I know the food is gonnabe cooked with something else.
So I don't have food allergies,but I just find I feel so good
eating good food that I don'twanna eat bad food anymore.
So, um, that's another thingthat I do and I would still like
(42:57):
to do slightly more exercise.
I thought that the dog walkingwould be something, but I really
need to up that a little bit.
So, yeah, I'm definitely lookingafter the mind a lot more than I
have.
I think I could still do alittle bit of improvement on the
physical side of things.
I, I've gone to bush walkinggroups at the end of last year,
but I don't wanna walk inpouring rain or boiling heat.
(43:19):
Um, so yeah, I, I choose shorteractivities.
I, I go through Eventbrite andHumanatix and other sites and I
book myself in for events, soI'm always doing a variety of
different activities.
So that gets me out and about,Hmm.
Nigel Rawlins (43:32):
Sounds like you move a lot more
Sue Ellson (43:35):
Yeah.
Nigel Rawlins (43:37):
and you're very lucky in a way that you don't
have any major health problemsbecause unfortunately, a lot of
women as they age, do have somehealth issues.
It's a good one about the foodtoo.
Uh, that's, that's my downfall,chocolate biscuits.
Sue Ellson (43:50):
I still like dark chocolate.
Nigel Rawlins (43:51):
Oh, well, I like white chocolate.
White chocolate macadamias.
I've just gotta stay away fromthem.
Okay, what else did I have inmind?
Okay, if somebody's listening tous and they're 60 or in their
sixties and they're sitting onthe fence, what advice would you
give them?
Sue Ellson (44:11):
What are they sitting on the fence about?
Nigel Rawlins (44:14):
I dunno, they might be worrying about, you
know, will anybody take meseriously or am I too old?
I suppose that's one issue.
Sue Ellson (44:25):
That's a good question.
So.
I remember meeting this personwho was very bitter and jaded
because they were an expert innutrition and they'd been
teaching for a long time andrunning cooking workshops and it
was all fantastic.
But they lost that regularteaching gig and then they got
themselves online.
(44:46):
And they were very angry about a20-year-old who goes on and puts
on a green smoothie on Instagramand thinks they're a
nutritionist.
'cause of course, in her mind,that's just not nutrition.
That's just a green smoothie.
So.
I tried to talk to this personabout, well, okay, so what are
you doing to promote yourselfwell, well actually she was
(45:08):
doing nothing.
So I thought, okay, so Ithought, alright, where's the
best place to start?
And the best place to start isusually with people 10 years
older, or younger than ourselvesbecause they know us at some
level.
We've had similar culturalexperiences, similar music
taste, you know, just, justgenerally these are people who
(45:30):
are more likely to relate to us.
Yes, I have a number of youngerclients in Australia and
overseas, so it's not as if Ican't relate to people who are
more than 10 years older oryounger than me.
I definitely can, but if you aregonna start somewhere, then do
that.
So then she realized that shehad to get face-to-face with
people again, because that wasthe only way she was going to
(45:53):
promote it.
And also she had to reach peoplewho wanted more than a green
smoothie, who wanted foodcombinations, who, who had
special dietary issues or.
They needed something else.
So she realized she wasn'tcompeting with the Instagram
green smoothie.
She was competing in a differentfield, and that's where she had
to go.
So that's how that worked.
(46:14):
So if you're sitting on thefence, you've gotta take sort of
a long, hard look at yourself.
There is free business mentoringavailable through your local
council so you can speak tothese people before you get your
idea off the ground.
Don't believe everythingeverybody else says though,
because you know.
The number of times people havesaid, do this or don't do that,
and I've done the exact oppositeand it's worked.
(46:35):
So, you can't believe everythingyou hear.
So speak to a minimum of threepeople.
Don't just speak to one and, youknow, crash and burn.
But get out there.
Go to local workshops that arerun by local councils and local
neighborhood houses and anythingin your community.
Just look up stuff that's closeto home and, and get yourself
(46:55):
out and about.
And start asking the question.
And remember, a business issomebody pays you for something.
So whatever it is, it doesn'treally matter.
Just start somewhere.
Nigel Rawlins (47:04):
Yep, that's it.
That's all it is.
You've gotta find something thatsomebody's prepared to pay for.
You know, I had a young fellowcome around and clean all the
concrete on our paths the otherday.
He was 22 years old and, uh,very happy, very bright boy, did
a beautiful job.
And I'm thinking 22 and he'srunning his own business.
(47:25):
And I thought, what's he gonnabe like when he is 42?
Sue Ellson (47:30):
that's right.
Nigel Rawlins (47:31):
Alright, so this has been a wonderful
conversation, again, you've beena fountain of knowledge here, so
how are people going to findyou?
Sue Ellson (47:41):
Well, I'm all over the interwebs.
Uh, but I guess the simplest oneis either sueellson.com or my
LinkedIn profile under SueEllson, E-L-L-S-O-N.
There's no I in the middle.
And, yeah, just, just reach outto me if you've got a question.
On my website you'll see I'vealways got events that are
coming up, but you can also seepast events.
You can listen to free webinarsand see that my first four books
(48:04):
are on researchgate.net, so youcan download them for free.
If you contact me from thispodcast, I'll happily send you
my fifth book, directly.
I'm more than happy to do that.
Just ask the question and I'malways happy to answer quick
questions via direct message oremail.
I always put that offer outbecause I remember contacting
(48:24):
Lifeline when I was doingresearch for my first website
and I said how many peoplecontact you because their
challenged by the consequencesof moving.
Oh, we stopped taking thosestatistics 12 months ago.
I said, oh, well that's not sogreat.
But they said so often peopledon't need to call Lifeline, but
if they know they can call, itgives them the confidence to
(48:45):
carry on with, with thechallenges of life, shall we
say.
Also another little comment I'dmake is if you are thinking
about doing something, pleasedon't listen to what everybody
else tells you.
There'll be a lot of people whowill say, it's not worth your
time, you'd be better off doingthis.
I have a friend who said, Sue,because your income went down,
(49:06):
you should apply for Centrelink,and then you could get funding
and you could be a personalcarer.
And, and I'm thinking, hang on aminute.
If I was living off a Centrelinkbenefit, first of all, it
wouldn't pay my bills.
And secondly, that is not a gooduse of my expertise.
I can help hundreds andthousands of people doing what I
do, whereas that would only letme help one person, uh, do
(49:27):
something.
So yeah, we've really gotta sortof think more broadly.
And if you've got health issues,I mean, I.
I have excellent health becauseI've had to maintain my health,
'cause I haven't had sick leave.
I haven't had holiday pay, Ihaven't had maternity leave or,
or parental leave as it's callednow.
I haven't had bereavement leave,any of those things since 1994.
(49:51):
I didn't even have half of thembefore 1994.
I only had holidays and rostereddays off.
So I've had to keep my healthwell.
So, make sure health is yournumber one priority because
that's the only thing we cannever get back.
And so yeah, I, I definitelyencourage you to, to make that a
priority.
Everything else kind of comessecond after that.
Nigel Rawlins (50:10):
That's fantastic.
Thank you.
Sue Ellson (50:12):
You're welcome Nigel.
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