October 2, 2025 • 44 mins
Ask Nigel Rawlins a question or send feedback, click the link to text me.
At 74, a routine phone call during COVID changed everything for Dr. Michael Best. After 50 years practicing medicine, he discovered the endocannabinoid system—a biological network in every human body that he'd never learned about in medical school. Now 80, he's writing a scientific book on the topic while mastering AI tools, Obsidian, and Zotero, proving that intellectual challenge sustains cognitive vitality rather than diminishing it.
In this conversation, Michael reveals why mainstream medicine ignores what patients experience, how accumulated expertise transforms technology from threat to strategic advantage, and why serendipity combined with professional curiosity creates meaningful work beyond traditional retirement. This is essential listening for anyone questioning whether it's too late to learn something complex, pivot careers, or take on ambitious intellectual projects in later life.
Resources Mentioned
- Dr. Michael Best's upcoming book: The Science Beneath Medicinal Cannabis
- Obsidian note-taking app: https://obsidian.md
- Zotero reference manager: https://www.zotero.org
- Claude AI: https://claude.ai (AI research assistant Michael uses)
- ChatGPT: https://chat.openai.com (Initial AI tool Michael explored)
- Dr. Michael Best on LinkedIn: [would add link if provided]
Names Mentioned on This Podcast
Hazel Edwards (author, publisher, and Michael's mentor—Michael describes himself as one of her "Hazelnuts"), Luc P. Beaudoin (Canadian cognitive scientist on LinkedIn who discusses "cognitively potent tools")
Key Concepts Discussed
Endocannabinoid system, homeostasis, medicinal cannabis vs recreational cannabis, CBD and THC, pharmaceutical-grade cannabis, TGA (Therapeutic Goods Administration - Australia), FDA (Food and Drug Administration - USA), telehealth, PTSD treatment, chronic pain management, anxiety and sleep disorders, ketamine therapy, epilepsy and seizure management, cancer treatment and chemotherapy-related nausea, ADHD, crystallized intelligence, extended mind theory, embodied cognition
Connect With Dr Michael Best on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-best-2b588133b/
Connect with Nigel Rawlins
website https://wisepreneurs.com.au/
Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/nigelrawlins/
Twitter https://twitter.com/wisepreneurs
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nigel Rawlins (00:00):
If you think you're too old to master new
technology, Dr.
Michael Best would disagree.
At 74, he discovered an entirebiological system he'd never
learned about in his 50 years ofmedical practice.
Now 80, he's writing ascientific book while teaching
himself Obsidian, Zotero andusing AI as his research
(00:22):
partner.
Today's conversation challengeseverything we've been told about
cognitive decline and learningcapacity in our later years.
Michael shares how heaccidentally stumbled into
medicinal cannabis researchduring COVID, why mainstream
medicine ignores a system thatexists in every human body and
(00:42):
how he's using the same digitaltools that intimidate many of us
to write a book that couldchange medical practice.
If you've ever felt thattechnology has passed you by, or
wonder whether it's too late totake on something intellectually
demanding, michael's story willinspire you to reconsider what's
possible.
Welcome to the Wisepreneurspodcast, I'm Nigel Rawlins.
(01:05):
I.
Michael, welcome to the Wisepreneurs Podcast.
Can you tell us something aboutyourself?
Dr Michael Best (01:11):
Thanks Nigel.
and thank you for inviting meonto this podcast.
Nigel Rawlins (01:15):
I.
Dr Michael Best (01:16):
Where am I from?
Yes.
So I've been in Australia for 74years, but, yeah, I came from
France initially.
My parents both grew up inFrance, but came from elsewhere.
Dad from Ukraine and mum fromPoland I came here as a
6-year-old not understanding anyEnglish and starting school.
(01:38):
And, yeah, I've been here forthe rest of the time.
So I've lived in Melbourne mostof my life.
Nigel Rawlins (01:43):
And, that's oh, about a hundred kilometers north
of where I live anyway, so wewe're sort of close.
I have to get up there on thetrain when I get to Melbourne.
Now the reason I'm talking toyou is because Hazel Edwards
contacted me and Hazel was aguest and she said you are one
of her hazelnuts.
So tell me something about thatand how it is that you're one of
(02:05):
her hazelnuts.
Dr Michael Best (02:07):
All right.
Well, I have, a friend who'sbeen working with Hazel before,
and, when I told him I was,interested in writing a book, he
said, look, you really shouldspeak to Hazel.
Yeah, I've been very fortunateto have worked with her for over
12 months now.
She mentors and she's publishedmany books herself, and she's an
(02:30):
amazing person.
I'm very grateful to her reallyfor, I wanted to write this
book, but I feel without herhelp, I would've been really
struggling
Nigel Rawlins (02:42):
We should have a little talk about, the topic of
the book and why that topic andwhat experience you have to talk
about that.
So tell me about that.
Dr Michael Best (02:53):
Right.
So the title of my book is TheScience Beneath Medicinal
Cannabis.
So it's a book about medicinalcannabis.
especially the big message thatI have is that there is a
science beneath it.
what a lot of people don'trealize is that, the medical
profession generally do notaccept that medicinal cannabis
(03:17):
is medicine.
I'll go into that a bit morelater, so that patients often
can be a bit, you know, thinkingthat there's just nothing behind
what they're doing.
They're taking this medicinalcannabis and, they may not
realize that there really issome backing and some scientific
backing into why it's actuallyoften helping them.
Nigel Rawlins (03:39):
Well, before we go that much further into there,
we should explain what yourbackground is that you are
bringing to this, where yourknowledge comes from.
Dr Michael Best (03:49):
So I, I'm an experienced medical practitioner
in here.
I've, worked, for many years asa GP here in Melbourne.
And, I came into the medicinalcannabis world by accident at
retirement stage.
And I feel very fortunate tohave just landed in that
situation by accident.
(04:10):
So, I've been researching it forabout five years and I've worked
in the field for about three anda half years altogether before I
retired.
Nigel Rawlins (04:21):
Okay, so what do you mean by three and a half
years you've worked in thatfield?
Dr Michael Best (04:24):
So, basically what happened is that I retired
from my day-to-day generalpractice as a 70-year-old, and
that was, 10 years ago now.
And I, started working with oneof the big private hospital
groups here in Melbourne.
Marvelous job.
And, the hospital, had asituation where GPs and the
(04:47):
specialists worked hand in handfor the rehab department.
So we looked afterrehabilitation patients, and I
did that for five years beforeCOVID hit.
Telehealth had just started andI thought, whoa, that could be
really an exciting thing to do.
And, I sent out some feelers tosome, general practice clinics
(05:09):
and got this chap who rang backand started talking about
medicinal cannabis.
Talked about the endocannabinoidsystem, which I'd never heard of
before, and I was astounded.
I had a lot of time to studyduring the COVID years because I
didn't work for a number ofmonths and I just, devoured
everything I could find aboutmedicinal cannabis and the
(05:32):
endocannabinoid system.
So by the time I got into thefield, I was really ready for
it.
Nigel Rawlins (05:39):
So how long have you been practicing as a GP?
Dr Michael Best (05:42):
I've been a medical practitioner for over 50
years.
the first part of my career wasactually in medical
administration.
So I worked in the medicaladministration field, both here
in Melbourne and in Canberra.
I did that for quite a whileand, I changed careers and went
into full-time, GP work in 1990.
Nigel Rawlins (06:05):
Now an interesting point you made is
that, a lot of medicalpractitioners don't know much
about the endocannabinoid systemor medical marijuana.
Why is that?
Dr Michael Best (06:14):
It's a worldwide situation.
Medicinal cannabis is incrediblypopular around the world.
United Nations about three yearsago, said 64 countries now have
medicinal cannabis legalized.
The estimate is that there'sabout a billion people in the
world now living in ajurisdiction where there is
(06:35):
medicinal cannabis, but it'sstill not accepted as medicine
by the medical profession.
So for instance, the crazysituation in America where
you've got 38 states outta 50that are legalized for medicinal
cannabis, 24 of them have gotrecreational cannabis there.
(06:56):
But the federal government, theFDA, which decides what is
medicine and what's not, stillregards it as a schedule one
drug, which is basically apoison.
So it's incredibly popular allthe way throughout America, but
the federal government stillsays no, there's no proof that
(07:18):
it's a medicine.
And that's a situation here inAustralia as well.
Nigel Rawlins (07:22):
Well, one of the previous guest, Amy Akon, was on
and she talked about menopause.
And she was saying that she wassurprised how little medical
practitioners knew about theup-to-date science.
So she did a lot of research andone of the issues, that she was
putting forward was that it'svery important that we take
(07:45):
agency over our own health.
In other words, we take someresponsibility to have an idea
about our own health.
What you've just pointed out isthat maybe medical practitioners
aren't really up with thescience about medical cannabis.
Can you tell us what is the useof medical Cannabis?
(08:06):
What's it being used for?
Dr Michael Best (08:07):
Your other question is, is really quite a,
a valid one about doctors notreally knowing a lot about it.
And there there's quite a lot ofreasons for that.
What it's being used for, the,the main things that patients
came to see me for, and it'sfairly, fairly standard
worldwide is pain initially,chronic pain, and then anxiety
(08:31):
and sleeping issues.
So those three, those threethings are the, the main reasons
that people come for.
But there's really a lot ofother things that it actually
can help for and that it's beingused for.
You know, a few countries, forinstance, Israel, who, legalized
medicinal cannabis many, manyyears before Australia, they've
(08:54):
actually been giving theirsoldiers medicinal cannabis for
PTSD, since 2004, so for a longtime.
It's been used for a lot ofthings.
When we discovered thisendocannabinoid system, which is
not long ago, it explained whyso many people for thousands of
(09:16):
years have talked about theeffects of cannabis.
Cannabis was used medically inmany countries for many years
before it was actually a bigproblem was that it, you know,
became a drug, an a narcoticsort of drug and regarded in the
same line as heroin basically inAmerica in the 1930s.
(09:37):
And since, since that time it'sbeen quite a problem.
Nigel Rawlins (09:40):
So how does it help with pain and PTSD?
What does it actually do to thebody?
Dr Michael Best (09:48):
Fascinating question.
This is really what's incrediblyfascinated me since I started
reading about it, and it's thesort of thing that I'd like to,
inspire a few doctors to realizehow amazing the system we've got
inside us.
Every human being on the planethas got a cannabis type system
(10:10):
inside us.
This was only discovered in1988, so it's not a long time
ago.
And what we've realized now isthat the system inside us does
just about everything.
It's the most extraordinarysystem.
And in particular, it's there tohelp us to protect against pain.
(10:34):
It's there to help us relax.
It's there to help us to sleep.
It's there to protect us againstinfections and against all sorts
of other issues as well.
So this system that works insideus, the cannabis plant and the
medicinal cannabis acts on thesystem inside us.
(10:59):
And that's what we've discoveredand the research has been
extraordinary in the last 20, 30years.
Nigel Rawlins (11:06):
There must be a difference between medicinal
cannabis and recreationalcannabis?
I'm assuming what?
What is the difference therebefore we go into how does it
connect?
Dr Michael Best (11:16):
I'll say that sometimes it's a very, very
tricky difference and it's notbecause in medicinal cannabis we
actually use flowers that arevery similar to what people will
be using for recreationalcannabis as part of the
treatment.
But medicinal cannabis includesoils, different types of things,
(11:39):
we have mainly CBD, and THC, thetwo main things we use and we
have balances between those.
You've brought up a veryinteresting question because the
difference between recreationalcannabis and medicinal cannabis
is at the heart of a lot of theissues that are discussed really
(12:01):
in this field.
Okay.
So basically, you can actuallyget a tub of medicinal cannabis
which has been prepared topharmaceutical sort of grades,
which is very similar to whatsomebody having recreational
cannabis may well have accessto.
(12:22):
One of the big issues that'sactually happened in Australia,
and which is part of leading toa lot of the discussions that
are happening in Australia withregard to medicinal cannabis at
the moment, is that a lot ofrecreational smokers have
actually discovered that theycan get it legally now as long
(12:43):
as they're using it for amedical purpose.
We are seeing many, many morepeople coming and becoming
patients of ours, who haveactually been recreational
smokers for 30 years, perhaps,that's creating a real issue in
the medicinal cannabis field.
And I think it's a huge issue,which is explaining a lot of
(13:06):
what's actually happening at themoment, because those particular
smokers are the ones who use thestronger part of the medicinal
cannabis, the THC, and they'reused to using it in larger
amounts.
So it's something that we asdoctors had to get used to as we
are seeing more and more of themin the field, that it's like we
(13:28):
need to be dealing with them alittle bit differently.
Do we deal with the person who'snever had any THC or any
medicinal cannabis before?
Nigel Rawlins (13:39):
I think I was reading somewhere that it's
actually quite helpful with thecancer treatment as well.
Dr Michael Best (13:44):
Been widely used in cancer treatment.
It's one of the areas thatthey've actually done study on
that it's accepted, but it'saccepted really for a very
narrow part of cancer treatment.
It's regarded as being helpfulfor the chemotherapy related
nausea associated with cancertreatment.
But there's been a huge amountof research going on, in fact,
(14:08):
for cancer patients of differenttypes as well.
The regulators who decide whatis regarded as an approved drug
and what is regarded as anunapproved drug and which is
what they regard medicinalcannabis these days.
Those people say that none ofthe research that's being done
(14:30):
is actually proof that medicinalcannabis works.
And that's at the heart of whathappens with doctors generally,
because doctors, you know, quiterightly are looking for
evidence-based treatments andthe FFDA in America, the TGA in
Australia, who decide what is adrug and what's not.
(14:53):
And they say that there isn'tactual proof.
There's a couple of exceptions,but for us in the everyday
world, effectively everything isnot approved.
What is approved is quiteamazing, but it's not really
helpful for us for the everydaypurpose.
Nigel Rawlins (15:11):
I guess one of the difficulties that you've
just mentioned is the fact thatpeople who are used to taking it
recreational think, okay, I'llget onto the medical one and
then I don't have to worry aboutfinding a deal or something like
that.
That might be, I'm assuming,muddying all the waters.
Dr Michael Best (15:28):
Well, I think so, yes.
I mean, I wasn't really lookingto, to be, working in a field
with people who were dependenton drugs and things like that,
in my later years.
But I think you do see them morein this field.
But I really do feel that havingrecreational smokers, looking at
(15:49):
it medically, I think is greathelp for them if they're
prepared to do it properly.
I think it's doing a greatservice to Australia to have
more people who have beenaccessing it illegally now able
to do something legal and thatoften those people are the ones
who know that it's been helpingthem for whatever their reasons
(16:12):
are.
And I've interviewed, some of mypatients for the book and as I
worked in the field, there weremore and more people who had
come over from the recreationalfield.
Who, who were finding that it'suseful.
In the early days they didn'tcome, and partly the price of it
was different as well.
But then as the price graduallycame down, it made it more
(16:35):
appropriate for them to try itand that they get a lot of
benefits from, from doing thingslegally.
Nigel Rawlins (16:41):
So are you still prescribing, are you still
working as a GP in this area?
Dr Michael Best (16:46):
No, I retired a bit over a year ago, so, I
retired and part of my realfocus in retiring was actually
to write the book.
It was something that I got thefeel for and, I had been
decreasing the amount of time Iwas working, before my
retirement.
But, yeah, I have completelyretired now.
Nigel Rawlins (17:08):
Now one, one of the reasons I, well, there's
several reasons I want to talkto you about is one that you're
80 years old and you've taken onquite an intellectual task here
to write a book, ascientifically based book about
medical marijuana and the EndoCanada book, how you say end?
Dr Michael Best (17:28):
Endocannabinoid system.
Yeah.
Nigel Rawlins (17:29):
well, I can't even say that.
So, basically your motivationnow is to write a book.
You're not doing this for money,this is for intellectual
stimulation, plus you've got apassion to get this message out.
Dr Michael Best (17:41):
Yeah, yeah, and I guess there, there's a
background reason as well inthat I have a grandfather who
wrote a book many, many yearsago in 1930 actually.
Which my dad tells me was abestseller and was translated
into about 30 languages.
And he's a man who I, I had agreat admiration for, but really
(18:04):
didn't know him at all.
After we came to Australia, Inever met him again.
And, I'd always felt that I'dlike to write a book and I think
the realizing that here wassomething with a real message
that was in an area which iscontroversial, but after having
worked in it I'm just soimpressed with what it really is
(18:27):
and what it can do.
And I'm aware there's a lot ofissues that I think someone
who's looking at it from amedical point of view really has
something to say.
Nigel Rawlins (18:37):
And again, I would say that you have the
expertise in there, a longmedical career of understanding
what patients are going through,and then the experience you've
had in prescribing it and seeingthe results of it so you have a
deep expertise about health andwellbeing and how this helps
(18:59):
people.
So that's quite fascinating.
Dr Michael Best (19:01):
I was just so impressed with it.
Gotta say I, I'd never heard ofthe endocannabinoid system until
2020 when I spoke to somebodywho I didn't know on the other
end of the phone talking aboutit, and I realized afterwards
how come, I mean, I've been adoctor for all these years.
(19:21):
How come I knew nothing aboutthis?
And the other thing is I'd hearda little bit about medicinal
cannabis because in my hospitalwork, one of the rehab
specialists was a painmanagement specialist who used
to bring patients into hospitalfor ketamine intravenously,
(19:42):
which apparently helped a numberof his patients.
And he asked me to help him, andI used to be admitting the
patients, giving the, medicationorders so the nurses could start
the treatment.
And, his view at that stage,this is 2020, was look I don't
know if it works, but, you know,if the patients feel that it
(20:04):
helps them, I'm happy for themto have it in hospital,'cause
normally they wouldn't be ableto have it while they're in
hospital.
So, yeah, I spoke to some ofthose this mysterious oil they
were taking and they weretelling me quite a few of them
were giving me some goodreports.
So I, I thought, wow, this, thisis, this could be interesting
(20:25):
when I had the opportunity laterto, to get involved with it.
Nigel Rawlins (20:28):
Now, isn't it fascinating that COVID helped
you make this switch into awhole new area, and then the
serendipity of talking tosomebody took you into an
extension of your medicalcareer.
Dr Michael Best (20:41):
Totally.
Yeah.
It really was quite amazing'cause talking to colleagues who
aren't in the field, you know,often they'd be saying, Michael
does, does this thing work?
What is it?
And you know, it's just not wellknown in the medical field at
all, in Australia.
I imagine that's a bit differentin Canada or America where it's
(21:01):
been legalized for so long.
By the same token, thespecialists there, you know,
unless I think what I've oftenfound is specialists were on
side, if some of their patientshad tried it and talked to them
of a good experience.
So that anecdotal, anecdotally,you know, specialists would,
(21:23):
would be interested in that.
And that's why some neurologistswho deal with epilepsy have had
experience where some of theirpatients have used it for
seizures and pain management, afew of them have found some of
their patients have been helpedby it and sleep specialists
who've found it.
So people who've had someexperience often go, wow, this
(21:47):
seems to work and I wonder ifthere's something in it.
And they often get a bit moreinterested in it, but, in many
cases, both GPs and specialistswere, were really not happy if
their patients were using it.
Nigel Rawlins (22:02):
Now talking about serendipity, somebody put you
onto Hazel Edwards.
Hazel Edwards put you onto me.
And now we're talking.
And interestingly, you know, youtalk about, your parents from
Ukraine and from Poland.
My great grandparents on mymother's side were from the same
area.
So, let's talk about what itmeans to write a book at the age
(22:26):
of 80.
So how long have you beenwriting this book and what does
that involve?
Dr Michael Best (22:33):
Well, Hazel's been a wonderful task master,
but her goal was that I write itin 12 months, so I'm a failure,
I'm afraid to her'cause that'snot the case.
And I'm taking a bit longer thanthat.
But yeah, I've got most of itdone in a way, I'm just not
happy with how it is.
I'd like to be writing itdifferently, but also in order
(22:56):
to get a publisher and Hazel hasbeen a help in that regard as
well.
But, I don't have a publisher,which is going to be an
important thing for me to do.
so I'm still in the writingstage, just learning a bit more
about some of the podcasts thatI've been seeing of yours,
Nigel, with a few people talkingabout smart notes and dealing
(23:20):
with some, assistance forhelping in that regard has
really given me a bit of a buzzfor doing extra research and
knowing where I've goteverything.
Because I've tended to besomeone who's worked with
folders, so I've learned things,I've got different folders about
things, but it's very hardsometimes to get back to that
(23:42):
and access it and find out whereeverything is and where it all
came from.
So, I'm really looking forwardto doing a little bit more of
it.
And, although I'm not a greattechnology person, I'm actually,
I've been putting my effortsinto really looking at this
technology aspect of taking thenotes, filing it, having a place
(24:04):
to keep, references somewhereand being able to connect them
together.
Nigel Rawlins (24:09):
Yeah, That was my big issue several years ago when
I used to take, I'd read a bookand I would take notes and copy
out quotes and things like that,and I'd have masses of books and
folders like you, but I couldnever find anything.
It was just crazy.
So we call that analog, the oldpen and paper days.
And now with digital tools andI'm really getting into this
(24:32):
stuff too, but I think I'm, I'mway down the rabbit hole.
This is, um, technology or appsthat are augmenting us.
The benefit for you is you,you've got a, a deep knowledge
of your topic.
So when you're starting to usedigital tools, you are able to
assess it and evaluate it andknow what's important.
(24:55):
And by having it on a digital,and we're talking both got
excited about, a program calledObsidian for our note takings
that will link to other notes inthe documents like a database.
Dr Michael Best (25:08):
Hmm.
Nigel Rawlins (25:09):
I'm using a lot of AI now to take a lot of those
notes and develop my thoughts onthem.
I'm now spending probably acouple of hours a day, working
through things like that.
There's a chap who's on LinkedInLuc P Beaudoin, he's a Canadian,
talks about cognitively potenttools, software that helps us
(25:31):
comprehend and utilizeinformation and develop our
intellectual capabilities andour effectiveness.
And this is cognitive sciencenow saying to us, these tools
are there to help us.
And there you are as an80-year-old starting to learn
how to use Obsidian.
Which is the relationaldatabase, and you go, oh, this
is good, and how have you beenlearning it?
(25:53):
Explain that to me.
Dr Michael Best (25:55):
I announced that I'm going to university
again.
I've been on YouTube watchingcountless videos about different
things, which can be a trap.
But, I've found the Obsidian tobe something very special.
I'm finding Zotero is veryhelpful for keeping, articles
and various things.
Again, there's so much to learnon how to use it properly and
(26:18):
how to link it properly withObsidian.
I'm just grateful to have itnow.
And I feel I'm going to learn ita bit more on how to connect it
with Obsidian.
But even if I don't, it's not aproblem because I'm able to
click the references by hand inmy notes in Obsidian.
Nigel Rawlins (26:37):
So what we should say is Zotero is, an app that
collects your references andsome notes about the references
as well.
So when you're creating thereferences at the end of your
booklet, you've got them allcorrectly addressed.
Dr Michael Best (26:52):
Yeah, I look it, it's a very helpful thing.
I'm at that stage of the writingat the moment where I'm still
doing some more writing with itand I think I'll be redoing
quite a bit of what I've done.
I've got it pretty well,organized I believe in terms of
what the finished product isgonna look like,
Nigel Rawlins (27:12):
So would, would you have ever thought that at 80
years of age you'd be going backto, well, we wouldn't bother
going to university at our ageanymore, but adding to our
knowledge through finding whatyou want to learn online.
So exploring the learning foryourself, would you have ever
thought that at the age of 80that you'd be learning something
(27:36):
new?
Learning about technology andlearning all these things?
Dr Michael Best (27:41):
I don't think that was part of my story
because I felt as if I've beenfollowing on technology rather
than being someone who's beenleading on it.
It's amazing to think that I'llbe doing this.
And also, I would never havedreamed that I'd be looking at
AI I started looking at ChatGPT,in my early days of the book.
(28:05):
I would never have thought thatI'd be using it to the degree
I'm doing at the moment.
Nigel Rawlins (28:09):
So how are you using ChatGPT?
Dr Michael Best (28:12):
I've actually gone to Claude as somebody I've
heard of, who's been using that.
And, yeah, I've been using it alot more, and I guess what I
found was that instead of justasking questions, if I framed,
my question, gave somebackground and also perhaps
said, look, you are aninvestigative journalist and,
(28:35):
you are looking at the medicinalcannabis situation in Melbourne
at the moment, what are the mainareas that you would see and
then I might give a particularrequest, but I'm also using it
for a general overview ofthings.
Nigel Rawlins (28:50):
So you're not saying to it, hey, write me my
book on cannabis or anythinglike that you are augmenting
yourself with it, I would saythat you're working with as a
co-pilot.
I'd say it's a co-pilot.
That's the word.
Dr Michael Best (29:03):
I think so.
And it's astonishing the amountof things it has.
For instance, I was asking itabout what was happening in the
medicinal cannabis world inAmerica, for instance.
And, the information it gave meabout it was just enormous.
The more information I got, themore questions I could ask, the
more I could hone in on thethings that I was especially
(29:25):
interested in.
I just find it extraordinary.
Nigel Rawlins (29:28):
Now, this is one of the points I try to make a
lot more in my writing at themoment, is that with the
experience you had, especiallythe knowledge that you have, you
are able to look at the outputfrom the ChatGPTs and Claude.
You're able to evaluate it,you've got your knowledge and
you can assess whether it'swhat's called hallucinating.
(29:50):
Like sometimes it writesarticles and it, it makes stuff
up.
And I said to it, I don't knowwhat that is.
I want a hypothetical.
I don't want you saying that.
And, and, and that's what youcan do.
Unfortunately, there's a lot ofyounger people who think they
can just plug something in andtake that, and that's an article
and that's where we're, sort ofbeing overwhelmed.
(30:12):
So going back to your learning,how do you choose now?
I don't think a lot of peoplerealize when you're older, you
really don't have any time.
I mean, people wonder like, I'm70 next year.
Well, I'm just interested indoing this, plus I wanna do my
walk and I wanna do my strengthtraining, but I wanna write this
and I wanna read that, and Istill do some work for clients,
(30:35):
quite a bit, actually, thisweek's been really busy.
So, how do you, with your time,how do you decide what you're
gonna spend time learning?
Dr Michael Best (30:44):
No, I don't have an easy answer to that.
I mean, I look to put some timeaside to do this medicinal
cannabis type area.
But yeah, finding the way to dosome exercise, as you say, for
me, it's tennis, finding thetime to do some, uh, some
singing, which I like to do aswell.
(31:05):
And, yeah, it's not an easy oneeven when I assumed when I was
retired, I would have so muchtime to do things, but, yeah, I
do find that, getting into thestudy and doing the sort of
things that I really would liketo do more of is it's not all
the time.
So I don't know how to answeryou on that one.
I do what I can, I think is thestory.
Nigel Rawlins (31:26):
Do you have a specific time that you work on
this or just ad hoc?
Dr Michael Best (31:33):
No, I don't do a specific time.
I look to arrange some time, inthe mornings quite often, but,
it's not a specific time, no.
Nigel Rawlins (31:42):
I guess people probably don't understand this,
when you're older and you'remarried and, there are children,
you have children, or there'sgrandchildren around, there's a
lot of other demands on yourtime, plus your own demands.
like dinner time, I have to helpmy wife cook, she demands it.
She's my age.
So she's, she's done her bitover time.
(32:04):
So, you know, she's not gonnacook for me anymore.
I've gotta help.
So there's other little demandson her time.
Plus, things like shopping, doyou get excited about, your
learning that you're doing andthe writing and how it forms?
Dr Michael Best (32:20):
I look, I do get excited about it and, yeah,
I really, I see this so much toactually, to say, at the moment.
And there's so much to learn forme as well in order to say it.
Nigel Rawlins (32:34):
Michael, would you like to tell us, some of the
parts of the book that you'rewriting?
Dr Michael Best (32:40):
The big parts of the book are to explain the
endocannabinoid system and howbig that is, because medicinal
cannabis world in the modern erahas really come on the tails of
the discovery of theendocannabinoid system and this
(33:01):
system was discovered purelybecause of the cannabis plant,
even though it's been with usfor hundreds of millions of
years, so long before the plantcame on the earth, but we wanted
to find out how does thecannabis plant have its effect
on us?
And it took many years to findit, but they finally did find
(33:23):
that it's directly relating to areceptor that sits on the wall
of cells inside the body.
And when they started looking atwhere these receptors were, I
think the people who are lookingin the brain for where they,
where the receptors were, musthave got a shock because it's
(33:43):
everywhere.
It's one of the most commonreceptors of its type in the
brain.
And it's everywhere in the bodyas well.
So we've just got an amazingsystem, which is invisible.
You can't see it.
So it's not like there's anorgan somewhere, which is this
(34:05):
system.
It's basically like the softwarein the computer.
It's totally invisible, but itdoes just about everything
inside.
It's, truly remarkable.
it's regarded as something whichbalances the body and mind.
The medical term is calledhomeostasis, but it's a system
(34:28):
which is there to balance usirrespective of what's happening
outside.
I mean, that is just the mostastonishing thing to imagine.
When you look into it the bodyis made up of all sorts of
areas, and this system isenormous in just about every
area.
(34:48):
I'm especially interested in thebrain and in the book I actually
look into where the system is inthe brain and some of the things
that it does.
And I think I've also got achapter in the book about
dinosaurs.
And that's to really highlighthow ancient the system is inside
us.
And also to make my point that Ibelieve every dinosaur that
(35:12):
walked or flew or swam in theocean on Earth had a
sophisticated endocannabinoidsystem in them, which is
extraordinary.
Nigel Rawlins (35:25):
It's fascinating, isn't it?
that we've evolved from singlecells, millions of years ago,
and we are this complex bodytoday and it is complex.
what I'm hearing is we've beentaking all these other
medications to deal with pain,but our body responds better to
(35:48):
medical cannabis or cannabis, Isuppose for those who are
self-medicating than we actuallyrealize.
Dr Michael Best (35:54):
Very much so, yeah, so the system in our
body's finely tuned, so it's notlike taking a dose of cannabis
or medicinal cannabis becausethat dose that we take lasts for
a few hours.
Oils last for about eight hours.
A smoke of cannabis lasts forthree or four hours perhaps, but
(36:16):
in our system, we've got aincredibly fine tuned system
where a little molecule iscreated and broken down in
seconds, so it's happening allaround the body all the time,
but in microseconds of action.
Whereas if we are smoking orhaving oil or, taking it in some
(36:37):
other way we are actually givingourselves a dosage that's there
for quite a long time.
So it's different from what thebody does, but it's doing the
same sort of things as what thebody does.
And certainly pain control andsleep and relaxation are three
very important things that itdoes in the body.
Nigel Rawlins (36:59):
So basically when we are in pain or anxious we're
outta whack, aren't we?
We're out of, a normalhomeostasis.
Dr Michael Best (37:09):
There's one researcher in the medicinal
cannabis field who did a lot ofwork and he actually had this as
his theory that we've got anendocannabinoid tone that
decides if we are in whack, soto speak.
And if we've got chronic pain orif we're not sleeping or if
(37:30):
we're very anxious that we'reout of whack in some way.
Yeah.
So I believe there's some truthto it, but it's an area that's
still one of the theories, butit really does look like it.
And it goes back right throughthe animal world Nigel, I'm no
botanist, but I've actually donea lot of study of the animals
(37:52):
because it's extraordinary.
And, we know for instance thatall animals with a backbone have
a sophisticated endocannabinoidsystem, including the two main
receptors.
The animal world that doesn'thave a backbone.
they usually don't havereceptors, but nearly all
(38:15):
animals have an endocannabinoidsystem.
Nearly all.
The one group that doesn't haveit are the insects, but just
about everything else has it,and it's amazing.
Nigel Rawlins (38:27):
It is fascinating.
and, but it is, I don't know ifit's a thing that as I get
older, I guess we're learningmore too.
I'm fascinated, about what ourbodies can do and what our
brains can do.
And I guess this is all thismind body connection and I'm
very much getting into, theextended mind, the embodied
(38:48):
system that our intelligence isnot just in our heads, it is in
our bodies, which is somethingyou are talking about here, that
it looks after its body and thebrain.
Dr Michael Best (39:01):
Absolutely, and I'm fascinated by biochemistry
and it's extraordinary.
I mean our brain is the mostextraordinary organism anyway.
It's probably the mostcomplicated living thing in the
world, and what it does isamazing.
The amount of biochemicalreactions that are going on in
(39:22):
the brain when you and I aresitting here talking, or if we
are just completely still,there's so many biochemical
reactions going on everymicrosecond.
It's extraordinary how the braindoesn't heat up and just
overheat.
And in actual fact, that's oneof the big things that's been
discovered about theendocannabinoid system is that
(39:46):
one of its roles actuallyhappens to be to cool the brain
down, so to speak, when itoverheats.
Like people with ADHD willoften, patients will often say,
look, I feel as if my brain iswired.
I'm just all over the place.
And it, it's interesting thatmedicinal cannabis seems to be
able to help people like that.
(40:07):
We can't say it does helpbecause as we are told, there's
no actual proof.
But when you work in the field,there's a lot of people who,
explain and say, well, it reallydoes help for them.
Nigel Rawlins (40:19):
And I think that's what we would expect from
our medical practitioners, thatthey have the empathy to work
with us, obviously they've gottabe very careful, because
otherwise you'd be known as, Iguess during COVID, a lot of
medical practitioners, who maynot have been too happy with the
COVID vaccinations, still had togo along with it.
(40:41):
So, I mean, you still have tokeep your job, so you can't go
straight too far away from themainstream, can you really?
Dr Michael Best (40:48):
Well, I think it's how we are brought up as
well.
We like to see things that areevidence-based and there's
actually been thousands oftrials with regard to medicinal
cannabis.
So there's quite a few peoplewho feel that there's a fair bit
of, evidence in one way oranother, but it's not good
enough for the medical world,and I understand that you need
(41:09):
to spend millions and millionsof dollars to do trials that are
really acceptable formedications.
And, it's very hard for peopleto have a patent on things if
anybody can grow a medicinal,plant, you've gotta have patents
to be prepared to spend hugeamounts of money on trials that
are going to work for people.
(41:31):
But there's a lot of trials thathave been done in the animal
world, and so many of them haveshown what the endocannabinoid
system can do.
And it looks very likely thatfrom experience in people who've
been using medicinal cannabisfor years, that the same sort of
thing is there for us as humans.
Nigel Rawlins (41:54):
Is there something else you'd like to
mention that we haven't talkedabout yet?
Dr Michael Best (41:57):
I think the regulators have got an important
role to play and I'd like tothink that they'll be able to do
what needs to be done for theindustry to help it, and also to
make sure that there still isreal access for patients to have
access to medicinal cannabis ina good way for the medicinal
(42:21):
cannabis to flourish.
Nigel Rawlins (42:23):
That's fantastic.
Well, on that note, we'veprobably come to the end here,
are you on LinkedIn or anythinglike that?
Dr Michael Best (42:30):
So I am on LinkedIn.
Not something I've been using agreat deal but I am there on
LinkedIn.
I'm not working as apractitioner.
I've been referring patientsback to the clinic where I used
to work.
Nigel Rawlins (42:43):
Thank you very much, Michael, for joining me
today.
Dr Michael Best (42:47):
Thanks Nigel, and I very much appreciate.
If you think you're too old to master new
technology, Dr.
Michael Best would disagree.
At 74, he discovered an entirebiological system he'd never
learned about in his 50 years ofmedical practice.
Now 80, he's writing ascientific book while teaching
himself Obsidian, Zotero andusing AI as his research
(00:22):
partner.
Today's conversation challengeseverything we've been told about
cognitive decline and learningcapacity in our later years.
Michael shares how heaccidentally stumbled into
medicinal cannabis researchduring COVID, why mainstream
medicine ignores a system thatexists in every human body and
(00:42):
how he's using the same digitaltools that intimidate many of us
to write a book that couldchange medical practice.
If you've ever felt thattechnology has passed you by, or
wonder whether it's too late totake on something intellectually
demanding, michael's story willinspire you to reconsider what's
possible.
Welcome to the Wisepreneurspodcast, I'm Nigel Rawlins.
(01:05):
I.
Michael, welcome to the Wisepreneurs Podcast.
Can you tell us something aboutyourself?
Dr Michael Best (01:11):
Thanks Nigel.
and thank you for inviting meonto this podcast.
Nigel Rawlins (01:15):
I.
Dr Michael Best (01:16):
Where am I from?
Yes.
So I've been in Australia for 74years, but, yeah, I came from
France initially.
My parents both grew up inFrance, but came from elsewhere.
Dad from Ukraine and mum fromPoland I came here as a
6-year-old not understanding anyEnglish and starting school.
(01:38):
And, yeah, I've been here forthe rest of the time.
So I've lived in Melbourne mostof my life.
Nigel Rawlins (01:43):
And, that's oh, about a hundred kilometers north
of where I live anyway, so wewe're sort of close.
I have to get up there on thetrain when I get to Melbourne.
Now the reason I'm talking toyou is because Hazel Edwards
contacted me and Hazel was aguest and she said you are one
of her hazelnuts.
So tell me something about thatand how it is that you're one of
(02:05):
her hazelnuts.
Dr Michael Best (02:07):
All right.
Well, I have, a friend who'sbeen working with Hazel before,
and, when I told him I was,interested in writing a book, he
said, look, you really shouldspeak to Hazel.
Yeah, I've been very fortunateto have worked with her for over
12 months now.
She mentors and she's publishedmany books herself, and she's an
(02:30):
amazing person.
I'm very grateful to her reallyfor, I wanted to write this
book, but I feel without herhelp, I would've been really
struggling
Nigel Rawlins (02:42):
We should have a little talk about, the topic of
the book and why that topic andwhat experience you have to talk
about that.
So tell me about that.
Dr Michael Best (02:53):
Right.
So the title of my book is TheScience Beneath Medicinal
Cannabis.
So it's a book about medicinalcannabis.
especially the big message thatI have is that there is a
science beneath it.
what a lot of people don'trealize is that, the medical
profession generally do notaccept that medicinal cannabis
(03:17):
is medicine.
I'll go into that a bit morelater, so that patients often
can be a bit, you know, thinkingthat there's just nothing behind
what they're doing.
They're taking this medicinalcannabis and, they may not
realize that there really issome backing and some scientific
backing into why it's actuallyoften helping them.
Nigel Rawlins (03:39):
Well, before we go that much further into there,
we should explain what yourbackground is that you are
bringing to this, where yourknowledge comes from.
Dr Michael Best (03:49):
So I, I'm an experienced medical practitioner
in here.
I've, worked, for many years asa GP here in Melbourne.
And, I came into the medicinalcannabis world by accident at
retirement stage.
And I feel very fortunate tohave just landed in that
situation by accident.
(04:10):
So, I've been researching it forabout five years and I've worked
in the field for about three anda half years altogether before I
retired.
Nigel Rawlins (04:21):
Okay, so what do you mean by three and a half
years you've worked in thatfield?
Dr Michael Best (04:24):
So, basically what happened is that I retired
from my day-to-day generalpractice as a 70-year-old, and
that was, 10 years ago now.
And I, started working with oneof the big private hospital
groups here in Melbourne.
Marvelous job.
And, the hospital, had asituation where GPs and the
(04:47):
specialists worked hand in handfor the rehab department.
So we looked afterrehabilitation patients, and I
did that for five years beforeCOVID hit.
Telehealth had just started andI thought, whoa, that could be
really an exciting thing to do.
And, I sent out some feelers tosome, general practice clinics
(05:09):
and got this chap who rang backand started talking about
medicinal cannabis.
Talked about the endocannabinoidsystem, which I'd never heard of
before, and I was astounded.
I had a lot of time to studyduring the COVID years because I
didn't work for a number ofmonths and I just, devoured
everything I could find aboutmedicinal cannabis and the
(05:32):
endocannabinoid system.
So by the time I got into thefield, I was really ready for
it.
Nigel Rawlins (05:39):
So how long have you been practicing as a GP?
Dr Michael Best (05:42):
I've been a medical practitioner for over 50
years.
the first part of my career wasactually in medical
administration.
So I worked in the medicaladministration field, both here
in Melbourne and in Canberra.
I did that for quite a whileand, I changed careers and went
into full-time, GP work in 1990.
Nigel Rawlins (06:05):
Now an interesting point you made is
that, a lot of medicalpractitioners don't know much
about the endocannabinoid systemor medical marijuana.
Why is that?
Dr Michael Best (06:14):
It's a worldwide situation.
Medicinal cannabis is incrediblypopular around the world.
United Nations about three yearsago, said 64 countries now have
medicinal cannabis legalized.
The estimate is that there'sabout a billion people in the
world now living in ajurisdiction where there is
(06:35):
medicinal cannabis, but it'sstill not accepted as medicine
by the medical profession.
So for instance, the crazysituation in America where
you've got 38 states outta 50that are legalized for medicinal
cannabis, 24 of them have gotrecreational cannabis there.
(06:56):
But the federal government, theFDA, which decides what is
medicine and what's not, stillregards it as a schedule one
drug, which is basically apoison.
So it's incredibly popular allthe way throughout America, but
the federal government stillsays no, there's no proof that
(07:18):
it's a medicine.
And that's a situation here inAustralia as well.
Nigel Rawlins (07:22):
Well, one of the previous guest, Amy Akon, was on
and she talked about menopause.
And she was saying that she wassurprised how little medical
practitioners knew about theup-to-date science.
So she did a lot of research andone of the issues, that she was
putting forward was that it'svery important that we take
(07:45):
agency over our own health.
In other words, we take someresponsibility to have an idea
about our own health.
What you've just pointed out isthat maybe medical practitioners
aren't really up with thescience about medical cannabis.
Can you tell us what is the useof medical Cannabis?
(08:06):
What's it being used for?
Dr Michael Best (08:07):
Your other question is, is really quite a,
a valid one about doctors notreally knowing a lot about it.
And there there's quite a lot ofreasons for that.
What it's being used for, the,the main things that patients
came to see me for, and it'sfairly, fairly standard
worldwide is pain initially,chronic pain, and then anxiety
(08:31):
and sleeping issues.
So those three, those threethings are the, the main reasons
that people come for.
But there's really a lot ofother things that it actually
can help for and that it's beingused for.
You know, a few countries, forinstance, Israel, who, legalized
medicinal cannabis many, manyyears before Australia, they've
(08:54):
actually been giving theirsoldiers medicinal cannabis for
PTSD, since 2004, so for a longtime.
It's been used for a lot ofthings.
When we discovered thisendocannabinoid system, which is
not long ago, it explained whyso many people for thousands of
(09:16):
years have talked about theeffects of cannabis.
Cannabis was used medically inmany countries for many years
before it was actually a bigproblem was that it, you know,
became a drug, an a narcoticsort of drug and regarded in the
same line as heroin basically inAmerica in the 1930s.
(09:37):
And since, since that time it'sbeen quite a problem.
Nigel Rawlins (09:40):
So how does it help with pain and PTSD?
What does it actually do to thebody?
Dr Michael Best (09:48):
Fascinating question.
This is really what's incrediblyfascinated me since I started
reading about it, and it's thesort of thing that I'd like to,
inspire a few doctors to realizehow amazing the system we've got
inside us.
Every human being on the planethas got a cannabis type system
(10:10):
inside us.
This was only discovered in1988, so it's not a long time
ago.
And what we've realized now isthat the system inside us does
just about everything.
It's the most extraordinarysystem.
And in particular, it's there tohelp us to protect against pain.
(10:34):
It's there to help us relax.
It's there to help us to sleep.
It's there to protect us againstinfections and against all sorts
of other issues as well.
So this system that works insideus, the cannabis plant and the
medicinal cannabis acts on thesystem inside us.
(10:59):
And that's what we've discoveredand the research has been
extraordinary in the last 20, 30years.
Nigel Rawlins (11:06):
There must be a difference between medicinal
cannabis and recreationalcannabis?
I'm assuming what?
What is the difference therebefore we go into how does it
connect?
Dr Michael Best (11:16):
I'll say that sometimes it's a very, very
tricky difference and it's notbecause in medicinal cannabis we
actually use flowers that arevery similar to what people will
be using for recreationalcannabis as part of the
treatment.
But medicinal cannabis includesoils, different types of things,
(11:39):
we have mainly CBD, and THC, thetwo main things we use and we
have balances between those.
You've brought up a veryinteresting question because the
difference between recreationalcannabis and medicinal cannabis
is at the heart of a lot of theissues that are discussed really
(12:01):
in this field.
Okay.
So basically, you can actuallyget a tub of medicinal cannabis
which has been prepared topharmaceutical sort of grades,
which is very similar to whatsomebody having recreational
cannabis may well have accessto.
(12:22):
One of the big issues that'sactually happened in Australia,
and which is part of leading toa lot of the discussions that
are happening in Australia withregard to medicinal cannabis at
the moment, is that a lot ofrecreational smokers have
actually discovered that theycan get it legally now as long
(12:43):
as they're using it for amedical purpose.
We are seeing many, many morepeople coming and becoming
patients of ours, who haveactually been recreational
smokers for 30 years, perhaps,that's creating a real issue in
the medicinal cannabis field.
And I think it's a huge issue,which is explaining a lot of
(13:06):
what's actually happening at themoment, because those particular
smokers are the ones who use thestronger part of the medicinal
cannabis, the THC, and they'reused to using it in larger
amounts.
So it's something that we asdoctors had to get used to as we
are seeing more and more of themin the field, that it's like we
(13:28):
need to be dealing with them alittle bit differently.
Do we deal with the person who'snever had any THC or any
medicinal cannabis before?
Nigel Rawlins (13:39):
I think I was reading somewhere that it's
actually quite helpful with thecancer treatment as well.
Dr Michael Best (13:44):
Been widely used in cancer treatment.
It's one of the areas thatthey've actually done study on
that it's accepted, but it'saccepted really for a very
narrow part of cancer treatment.
It's regarded as being helpfulfor the chemotherapy related
nausea associated with cancertreatment.
But there's been a huge amountof research going on, in fact,
(14:08):
for cancer patients of differenttypes as well.
The regulators who decide whatis regarded as an approved drug
and what is regarded as anunapproved drug and which is
what they regard medicinalcannabis these days.
Those people say that none ofthe research that's being done
(14:30):
is actually proof that medicinalcannabis works.
And that's at the heart of whathappens with doctors generally,
because doctors, you know, quiterightly are looking for
evidence-based treatments andthe FFDA in America, the TGA in
Australia, who decide what is adrug and what's not.
(14:53):
And they say that there isn'tactual proof.
There's a couple of exceptions,but for us in the everyday
world, effectively everything isnot approved.
What is approved is quiteamazing, but it's not really
helpful for us for the everydaypurpose.
Nigel Rawlins (15:11):
I guess one of the difficulties that you've
just mentioned is the fact thatpeople who are used to taking it
recreational think, okay, I'llget onto the medical one and
then I don't have to worry aboutfinding a deal or something like
that.
That might be, I'm assuming,muddying all the waters.
Dr Michael Best (15:28):
Well, I think so, yes.
I mean, I wasn't really lookingto, to be, working in a field
with people who were dependenton drugs and things like that,
in my later years.
But I think you do see them morein this field.
But I really do feel that havingrecreational smokers, looking at
(15:49):
it medically, I think is greathelp for them if they're
prepared to do it properly.
I think it's doing a greatservice to Australia to have
more people who have beenaccessing it illegally now able
to do something legal and thatoften those people are the ones
who know that it's been helpingthem for whatever their reasons
(16:12):
are.
And I've interviewed, some of mypatients for the book and as I
worked in the field, there weremore and more people who had
come over from the recreationalfield.
Who, who were finding that it'suseful.
In the early days they didn'tcome, and partly the price of it
was different as well.
But then as the price graduallycame down, it made it more
(16:35):
appropriate for them to try itand that they get a lot of
benefits from, from doing thingslegally.
Nigel Rawlins (16:41):
So are you still prescribing, are you still
working as a GP in this area?
Dr Michael Best (16:46):
No, I retired a bit over a year ago, so, I
retired and part of my realfocus in retiring was actually
to write the book.
It was something that I got thefeel for and, I had been
decreasing the amount of time Iwas working, before my
retirement.
But, yeah, I have completelyretired now.
Nigel Rawlins (17:08):
Now one, one of the reasons I, well, there's
several reasons I want to talkto you about is one that you're
80 years old and you've taken onquite an intellectual task here
to write a book, ascientifically based book about
medical marijuana and the EndoCanada book, how you say end?
Dr Michael Best (17:28):
Endocannabinoid system.
Yeah.
Nigel Rawlins (17:29):
well, I can't even say that.
So, basically your motivationnow is to write a book.
You're not doing this for money,this is for intellectual
stimulation, plus you've got apassion to get this message out.
Dr Michael Best (17:41):
Yeah, yeah, and I guess there, there's a
background reason as well inthat I have a grandfather who
wrote a book many, many yearsago in 1930 actually.
Which my dad tells me was abestseller and was translated
into about 30 languages.
And he's a man who I, I had agreat admiration for, but really
(18:04):
didn't know him at all.
After we came to Australia, Inever met him again.
And, I'd always felt that I'dlike to write a book and I think
the realizing that here wassomething with a real message
that was in an area which iscontroversial, but after having
worked in it I'm just soimpressed with what it really is
(18:27):
and what it can do.
And I'm aware there's a lot ofissues that I think someone
who's looking at it from amedical point of view really has
something to say.
Nigel Rawlins (18:37):
And again, I would say that you have the
expertise in there, a longmedical career of understanding
what patients are going through,and then the experience you've
had in prescribing it and seeingthe results of it so you have a
deep expertise about health andwellbeing and how this helps
(18:59):
people.
So that's quite fascinating.
Dr Michael Best (19:01):
I was just so impressed with it.
Gotta say I, I'd never heard ofthe endocannabinoid system until
2020 when I spoke to somebodywho I didn't know on the other
end of the phone talking aboutit, and I realized afterwards
how come, I mean, I've been adoctor for all these years.
(19:21):
How come I knew nothing aboutthis?
And the other thing is I'd hearda little bit about medicinal
cannabis because in my hospitalwork, one of the rehab
specialists was a painmanagement specialist who used
to bring patients into hospitalfor ketamine intravenously,
(19:42):
which apparently helped a numberof his patients.
And he asked me to help him, andI used to be admitting the
patients, giving the, medicationorders so the nurses could start
the treatment.
And, his view at that stage,this is 2020, was look I don't
know if it works, but, you know,if the patients feel that it
(20:04):
helps them, I'm happy for themto have it in hospital,'cause
normally they wouldn't be ableto have it while they're in
hospital.
So, yeah, I spoke to some ofthose this mysterious oil they
were taking and they weretelling me quite a few of them
were giving me some goodreports.
So I, I thought, wow, this, thisis, this could be interesting
(20:25):
when I had the opportunity laterto, to get involved with it.
Nigel Rawlins (20:28):
Now, isn't it fascinating that COVID helped
you make this switch into awhole new area, and then the
serendipity of talking tosomebody took you into an
extension of your medicalcareer.
Dr Michael Best (20:41):
Totally.
Yeah.
It really was quite amazing'cause talking to colleagues who
aren't in the field, you know,often they'd be saying, Michael
does, does this thing work?
What is it?
And you know, it's just not wellknown in the medical field at
all, in Australia.
I imagine that's a bit differentin Canada or America where it's
(21:01):
been legalized for so long.
By the same token, thespecialists there, you know,
unless I think what I've oftenfound is specialists were on
side, if some of their patientshad tried it and talked to them
of a good experience.
So that anecdotal, anecdotally,you know, specialists would,
(21:23):
would be interested in that.
And that's why some neurologistswho deal with epilepsy have had
experience where some of theirpatients have used it for
seizures and pain management, afew of them have found some of
their patients have been helpedby it and sleep specialists
who've found it.
So people who've had someexperience often go, wow, this
(21:47):
seems to work and I wonder ifthere's something in it.
And they often get a bit moreinterested in it, but, in many
cases, both GPs and specialistswere, were really not happy if
their patients were using it.
Nigel Rawlins (22:02):
Now talking about serendipity, somebody put you
onto Hazel Edwards.
Hazel Edwards put you onto me.
And now we're talking.
And interestingly, you know, youtalk about, your parents from
Ukraine and from Poland.
My great grandparents on mymother's side were from the same
area.
So, let's talk about what itmeans to write a book at the age
(22:26):
of 80.
So how long have you beenwriting this book and what does
that involve?
Dr Michael Best (22:33):
Well, Hazel's been a wonderful task master,
but her goal was that I write itin 12 months, so I'm a failure,
I'm afraid to her'cause that'snot the case.
And I'm taking a bit longer thanthat.
But yeah, I've got most of itdone in a way, I'm just not
happy with how it is.
I'd like to be writing itdifferently, but also in order
(22:56):
to get a publisher and Hazel hasbeen a help in that regard as
well.
But, I don't have a publisher,which is going to be an
important thing for me to do.
so I'm still in the writingstage, just learning a bit more
about some of the podcasts thatI've been seeing of yours,
Nigel, with a few people talkingabout smart notes and dealing
(23:20):
with some, assistance forhelping in that regard has
really given me a bit of a buzzfor doing extra research and
knowing where I've goteverything.
Because I've tended to besomeone who's worked with
folders, so I've learned things,I've got different folders about
things, but it's very hardsometimes to get back to that
(23:42):
and access it and find out whereeverything is and where it all
came from.
So, I'm really looking forwardto doing a little bit more of
it.
And, although I'm not a greattechnology person, I'm actually,
I've been putting my effortsinto really looking at this
technology aspect of taking thenotes, filing it, having a place
(24:04):
to keep, references somewhereand being able to connect them
together.
Nigel Rawlins (24:09):
Yeah, That was my big issue several years ago when
I used to take, I'd read a bookand I would take notes and copy
out quotes and things like that,and I'd have masses of books and
folders like you, but I couldnever find anything.
It was just crazy.
So we call that analog, the oldpen and paper days.
And now with digital tools andI'm really getting into this
(24:32):
stuff too, but I think I'm, I'mway down the rabbit hole.
This is, um, technology or appsthat are augmenting us.
The benefit for you is you,you've got a, a deep knowledge
of your topic.
So when you're starting to usedigital tools, you are able to
assess it and evaluate it andknow what's important.
(24:55):
And by having it on a digital,and we're talking both got
excited about, a program calledObsidian for our note takings
that will link to other notes inthe documents like a database.
Dr Michael Best (25:08):
Hmm.
Nigel Rawlins (25:09):
I'm using a lot of AI now to take a lot of those
notes and develop my thoughts onthem.
I'm now spending probably acouple of hours a day, working
through things like that.
There's a chap who's on LinkedInLuc P Beaudoin, he's a Canadian,
talks about cognitively potenttools, software that helps us
(25:31):
comprehend and utilizeinformation and develop our
intellectual capabilities andour effectiveness.
And this is cognitive sciencenow saying to us, these tools
are there to help us.
And there you are as an80-year-old starting to learn
how to use Obsidian.
Which is the relationaldatabase, and you go, oh, this
is good, and how have you beenlearning it?
(25:53):
Explain that to me.
Dr Michael Best (25:55):
I announced that I'm going to university
again.
I've been on YouTube watchingcountless videos about different
things, which can be a trap.
But, I've found the Obsidian tobe something very special.
I'm finding Zotero is veryhelpful for keeping, articles
and various things.
Again, there's so much to learnon how to use it properly and
(26:18):
how to link it properly withObsidian.
I'm just grateful to have itnow.
And I feel I'm going to learn ita bit more on how to connect it
with Obsidian.
But even if I don't, it's not aproblem because I'm able to
click the references by hand inmy notes in Obsidian.
Nigel Rawlins (26:37):
So what we should say is Zotero is, an app that
collects your references andsome notes about the references
as well.
So when you're creating thereferences at the end of your
booklet, you've got them allcorrectly addressed.
Dr Michael Best (26:52):
Yeah, I look it, it's a very helpful thing.
I'm at that stage of the writingat the moment where I'm still
doing some more writing with itand I think I'll be redoing
quite a bit of what I've done.
I've got it pretty well,organized I believe in terms of
what the finished product isgonna look like,
Nigel Rawlins (27:12):
So would, would you have ever thought that at 80
years of age you'd be going backto, well, we wouldn't bother
going to university at our ageanymore, but adding to our
knowledge through finding whatyou want to learn online.
So exploring the learning foryourself, would you have ever
thought that at the age of 80that you'd be learning something
(27:36):
new?
Learning about technology andlearning all these things?
Dr Michael Best (27:41):
I don't think that was part of my story
because I felt as if I've beenfollowing on technology rather
than being someone who's beenleading on it.
It's amazing to think that I'llbe doing this.
And also, I would never havedreamed that I'd be looking at
AI I started looking at ChatGPT,in my early days of the book.
(28:05):
I would never have thought thatI'd be using it to the degree
I'm doing at the moment.
Nigel Rawlins (28:09):
So how are you using ChatGPT?
Dr Michael Best (28:12):
I've actually gone to Claude as somebody I've
heard of, who's been using that.
And, yeah, I've been using it alot more, and I guess what I
found was that instead of justasking questions, if I framed,
my question, gave somebackground and also perhaps
said, look, you are aninvestigative journalist and,
(28:35):
you are looking at the medicinalcannabis situation in Melbourne
at the moment, what are the mainareas that you would see and
then I might give a particularrequest, but I'm also using it
for a general overview ofthings.
Nigel Rawlins (28:50):
So you're not saying to it, hey, write me my
book on cannabis or anythinglike that you are augmenting
yourself with it, I would saythat you're working with as a
co-pilot.
I'd say it's a co-pilot.
That's the word.
Dr Michael Best (29:03):
I think so.
And it's astonishing the amountof things it has.
For instance, I was asking itabout what was happening in the
medicinal cannabis world inAmerica, for instance.
And, the information it gave meabout it was just enormous.
The more information I got, themore questions I could ask, the
more I could hone in on thethings that I was especially
(29:25):
interested in.
I just find it extraordinary.
Nigel Rawlins (29:28):
Now, this is one of the points I try to make a
lot more in my writing at themoment, is that with the
experience you had, especiallythe knowledge that you have, you
are able to look at the outputfrom the ChatGPTs and Claude.
You're able to evaluate it,you've got your knowledge and
you can assess whether it'swhat's called hallucinating.
(29:50):
Like sometimes it writesarticles and it, it makes stuff
up.
And I said to it, I don't knowwhat that is.
I want a hypothetical.
I don't want you saying that.
And, and, and that's what youcan do.
Unfortunately, there's a lot ofyounger people who think they
can just plug something in andtake that, and that's an article
and that's where we're, sort ofbeing overwhelmed.
(30:12):
So going back to your learning,how do you choose now?
I don't think a lot of peoplerealize when you're older, you
really don't have any time.
I mean, people wonder like, I'm70 next year.
Well, I'm just interested indoing this, plus I wanna do my
walk and I wanna do my strengthtraining, but I wanna write this
and I wanna read that, and Istill do some work for clients,
(30:35):
quite a bit, actually, thisweek's been really busy.
So, how do you, with your time,how do you decide what you're
gonna spend time learning?
Dr Michael Best (30:44):
No, I don't have an easy answer to that.
I mean, I look to put some timeaside to do this medicinal
cannabis type area.
But yeah, finding the way to dosome exercise, as you say, for
me, it's tennis, finding thetime to do some, uh, some
singing, which I like to do aswell.
(31:05):
And, yeah, it's not an easy oneeven when I assumed when I was
retired, I would have so muchtime to do things, but, yeah, I
do find that, getting into thestudy and doing the sort of
things that I really would liketo do more of is it's not all
the time.
So I don't know how to answeryou on that one.
I do what I can, I think is thestory.
Nigel Rawlins (31:26):
Do you have a specific time that you work on
this or just ad hoc?
Dr Michael Best (31:33):
No, I don't do a specific time.
I look to arrange some time, inthe mornings quite often, but,
it's not a specific time, no.
Nigel Rawlins (31:42):
I guess people probably don't understand this,
when you're older and you'remarried and, there are children,
you have children, or there'sgrandchildren around, there's a
lot of other demands on yourtime, plus your own demands.
like dinner time, I have to helpmy wife cook, she demands it.
She's my age.
So she's, she's done her bitover time.
(32:04):
So, you know, she's not gonnacook for me anymore.
I've gotta help.
So there's other little demandson her time.
Plus, things like shopping, doyou get excited about, your
learning that you're doing andthe writing and how it forms?
Dr Michael Best (32:20):
I look, I do get excited about it and, yeah,
I really, I see this so much toactually, to say, at the moment.
And there's so much to learn forme as well in order to say it.
Nigel Rawlins (32:34):
Michael, would you like to tell us, some of the
parts of the book that you'rewriting?
Dr Michael Best (32:40):
The big parts of the book are to explain the
endocannabinoid system and howbig that is, because medicinal
cannabis world in the modern erahas really come on the tails of
the discovery of theendocannabinoid system and this
(33:01):
system was discovered purelybecause of the cannabis plant,
even though it's been with usfor hundreds of millions of
years, so long before the plantcame on the earth, but we wanted
to find out how does thecannabis plant have its effect
on us?
And it took many years to findit, but they finally did find
(33:23):
that it's directly relating to areceptor that sits on the wall
of cells inside the body.
And when they started looking atwhere these receptors were, I
think the people who are lookingin the brain for where they,
where the receptors were, musthave got a shock because it's
(33:43):
everywhere.
It's one of the most commonreceptors of its type in the
brain.
And it's everywhere in the bodyas well.
So we've just got an amazingsystem, which is invisible.
You can't see it.
So it's not like there's anorgan somewhere, which is this
(34:05):
system.
It's basically like the softwarein the computer.
It's totally invisible, but itdoes just about everything
inside.
It's, truly remarkable.
it's regarded as something whichbalances the body and mind.
The medical term is calledhomeostasis, but it's a system
(34:28):
which is there to balance usirrespective of what's happening
outside.
I mean, that is just the mostastonishing thing to imagine.
When you look into it the bodyis made up of all sorts of
areas, and this system isenormous in just about every
area.
(34:48):
I'm especially interested in thebrain and in the book I actually
look into where the system is inthe brain and some of the things
that it does.
And I think I've also got achapter in the book about
dinosaurs.
And that's to really highlighthow ancient the system is inside
us.
And also to make my point that Ibelieve every dinosaur that
(35:12):
walked or flew or swam in theocean on Earth had a
sophisticated endocannabinoidsystem in them, which is
extraordinary.
Nigel Rawlins (35:25):
It's fascinating, isn't it?
that we've evolved from singlecells, millions of years ago,
and we are this complex bodytoday and it is complex.
what I'm hearing is we've beentaking all these other
medications to deal with pain,but our body responds better to
(35:48):
medical cannabis or cannabis, Isuppose for those who are
self-medicating than we actuallyrealize.
Dr Michael Best (35:54):
Very much so, yeah, so the system in our
body's finely tuned, so it's notlike taking a dose of cannabis
or medicinal cannabis becausethat dose that we take lasts for
a few hours.
Oils last for about eight hours.
A smoke of cannabis lasts forthree or four hours perhaps, but
(36:16):
in our system, we've got aincredibly fine tuned system
where a little molecule iscreated and broken down in
seconds, so it's happening allaround the body all the time,
but in microseconds of action.
Whereas if we are smoking orhaving oil or, taking it in some
(36:37):
other way we are actually givingourselves a dosage that's there
for quite a long time.
So it's different from what thebody does, but it's doing the
same sort of things as what thebody does.
And certainly pain control andsleep and relaxation are three
very important things that itdoes in the body.
Nigel Rawlins (36:59):
So basically when we are in pain or anxious we're
outta whack, aren't we?
We're out of, a normalhomeostasis.
Dr Michael Best (37:09):
There's one researcher in the medicinal
cannabis field who did a lot ofwork and he actually had this as
his theory that we've got anendocannabinoid tone that
decides if we are in whack, soto speak.
And if we've got chronic pain orif we're not sleeping or if
(37:30):
we're very anxious that we'reout of whack in some way.
Yeah.
So I believe there's some truthto it, but it's an area that's
still one of the theories, butit really does look like it.
And it goes back right throughthe animal world Nigel, I'm no
botanist, but I've actually donea lot of study of the animals
(37:52):
because it's extraordinary.
And, we know for instance thatall animals with a backbone have
a sophisticated endocannabinoidsystem, including the two main
receptors.
The animal world that doesn'thave a backbone.
they usually don't havereceptors, but nearly all
(38:15):
animals have an endocannabinoidsystem.
Nearly all.
The one group that doesn't haveit are the insects, but just
about everything else has it,and it's amazing.
Nigel Rawlins (38:27):
It is fascinating.
and, but it is, I don't know ifit's a thing that as I get
older, I guess we're learningmore too.
I'm fascinated, about what ourbodies can do and what our
brains can do.
And I guess this is all thismind body connection and I'm
very much getting into, theextended mind, the embodied
(38:48):
system that our intelligence isnot just in our heads, it is in
our bodies, which is somethingyou are talking about here, that
it looks after its body and thebrain.
Dr Michael Best (39:01):
Absolutely, and I'm fascinated by biochemistry
and it's extraordinary.
I mean our brain is the mostextraordinary organism anyway.
It's probably the mostcomplicated living thing in the
world, and what it does isamazing.
The amount of biochemicalreactions that are going on in
(39:22):
the brain when you and I aresitting here talking, or if we
are just completely still,there's so many biochemical
reactions going on everymicrosecond.
It's extraordinary how the braindoesn't heat up and just
overheat.
And in actual fact, that's oneof the big things that's been
discovered about theendocannabinoid system is that
(39:46):
one of its roles actuallyhappens to be to cool the brain
down, so to speak, when itoverheats.
Like people with ADHD willoften, patients will often say,
look, I feel as if my brain iswired.
I'm just all over the place.
And it, it's interesting thatmedicinal cannabis seems to be
able to help people like that.
(40:07):
We can't say it does helpbecause as we are told, there's
no actual proof.
But when you work in the field,there's a lot of people who,
explain and say, well, it reallydoes help for them.
Nigel Rawlins (40:19):
And I think that's what we would expect from
our medical practitioners, thatthey have the empathy to work
with us, obviously they've gottabe very careful, because
otherwise you'd be known as, Iguess during COVID, a lot of
medical practitioners, who maynot have been too happy with the
COVID vaccinations, still had togo along with it.
(40:41):
So, I mean, you still have tokeep your job, so you can't go
straight too far away from themainstream, can you really?
Dr Michael Best (40:48):
Well, I think it's how we are brought up as
well.
We like to see things that areevidence-based and there's
actually been thousands oftrials with regard to medicinal
cannabis.
So there's quite a few peoplewho feel that there's a fair bit
of, evidence in one way oranother, but it's not good
enough for the medical world,and I understand that you need
(41:09):
to spend millions and millionsof dollars to do trials that are
really acceptable formedications.
And, it's very hard for peopleto have a patent on things if
anybody can grow a medicinal,plant, you've gotta have patents
to be prepared to spend hugeamounts of money on trials that
are going to work for people.
(41:31):
But there's a lot of trials thathave been done in the animal
world, and so many of them haveshown what the endocannabinoid
system can do.
And it looks very likely thatfrom experience in people who've
been using medicinal cannabisfor years, that the same sort of
thing is there for us as humans.
Nigel Rawlins (41:54):
Is there something else you'd like to
mention that we haven't talkedabout yet?
Dr Michael Best (41:57):
I think the regulators have got an important
role to play and I'd like tothink that they'll be able to do
what needs to be done for theindustry to help it, and also to
make sure that there still isreal access for patients to have
access to medicinal cannabis ina good way for the medicinal
(42:21):
cannabis to flourish.
Nigel Rawlins (42:23):
That's fantastic.
Well, on that note, we'veprobably come to the end here,
are you on LinkedIn or anythinglike that?
Dr Michael Best (42:30):
So I am on LinkedIn.
Not something I've been using agreat deal but I am there on
LinkedIn.
I'm not working as apractitioner.
I've been referring patientsback to the clinic where I used
to work.
Nigel Rawlins (42:43):
Thank you very much, Michael, for joining me
today.
Dr Michael Best (42:47):
Thanks Nigel, and I very much appreciate.
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