June 27, 2024 • 50 mins
Ask Nigel Rawlins a question or send feedback, click the link to text me.
Join host Nigel Rawlins on the Wisepreneurs podcast as he chats with Emma Williams, a former academic turned business owner. Emma shares her journey from a career in physics and Magnetic Resonance Imaging research to starting her own coaching business.
She discusses the challenges academics face when transitioning to industry, the importance of understanding personal values, and her approach to coaching highly skilled STEM professionals.
Emma also touches on the impact of student debt, the evolving job market, and her insights into using AI.
In this packed episode, Emma provides valuable advice for academics contemplating a career change and those navigating professional transitions.
Books by Emma Williams
- Leaving Academia: Ditch the blanket, take the skills (Creatively Empowering Researchers in their Careers) https://geni.us/academia
- The UNIque Guide for Women: Confidently embracing your career in research and beyond (Creatively Empowering Researchers in their Careers)
Coauthored with Liz Elvidge and Carol Spencely: What Every Postdoc Needs To Know
Courses by Emma Williams https://ejwsolutions.teachable.com/
- Leveraging LinkedIn for Researchers
- The Successful Researcher Roadmap
- How to write a fellowship
- I'm a postdoc ... get me out of here
Mentions
Sharon Gaskin https://thetrainerstrainingcompany.co.uk/
Debbie Jenkins https://debbiejenkins.com/
Nether Hall Archers, Cambridge
Addenbrookes Hospital, Cambridge
Connect with Emma Williams
Website: https://ejwsolutions.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmawilliamstraining/
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Connect with Nigel Rawlins
website https://wisepreneurs.com.au/
Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/nigelrawlins/
Twitter https://twitter.com/wisepreneurs
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nigel Rawlins (00:01):
Join us is Emma Williams, a former academic
turned coach shares her journeyfrom academia to
entrepreneurship.
She discusses how she helps PhDsand postdocs, navigate career
transitions out of universitiesby uncovering their skills and
abilities suitable fornon-academic roles.
Whether or not you've got a PhDEmma's insights into
(00:23):
self-reflection, skill transferand building support networks
are invaluable for anyonelooking to thrive in their
career.
In this episode, Emma providespractical advice and strategies
to help you make informeddecisions and achieve
professional success.
Emma, welcome to theWisepreneurs podcast, would you
(00:44):
like to tell us something aboutyourself and where you're from?
Emma Williams (00:47):
So thank you for having me, it's very exciting.
I am an ex academic who has hadher own business now for 15
years.
I'm based just south ofCambridge in the UK, and we are
currently basking in the world'sworst summer.
Nigel Rawlins (01:03):
Now, on LinkedIn, you call yourself Emma, the
nerd, coach, physicist and PhD.
Emma Williams (01:12):
So, self confession, I am a little bit of
a nerd.
I love sci fi, can recite mostof the Star Wars films.
my little, appellation of thenerd coach refers to me, but
also, a lot of people who I workwith are very, bright, sparky,
PhD plus people in universities.
(01:33):
I tend to work majority withSTEM people just because there
are more of those in ouruniversities, at that PhD plus
level.
They do tend to be a little bitnerdy.
They tend to resonate with thatnerd coach.
A long time ago, when dinosaursroamed the earth, I did a degree
in physics at Cambridge, but Iam super chatty so don't turn
(01:54):
off now.
and then moved into a PhDlooking at Magnetic Resonance
Imaging.
So, I was looking at scanningthe brain, something that we
have in hospitals, but I was onthe research end of that looking
at brain function, when that wasquite a new field.
So that was my PhD.
And then I did, three and a halfyears postdoctoral research at
(02:16):
the teaching hospital here inCambridge.
So the very mighty AddenbrookesHospital.
Nigel Rawlins (02:21):
And do you work in a university as well?
Emma Williams (02:23):
Yes.
So, the teaching hospital ispart and parcel of the
university.
They're sort of intermingled.
my boss was a neurosurgeon, butmy, immediate, supervisor was an
academic.
so I was going down the academicroute.
I wanted to stay in academia.
I applied for fellowships andvarious other things that
(02:43):
academics do, but decided.
that academia wasn't for meabout three and a half years in.
it was a massive decision.
I'd always wanted to be, since Iwas little, a researcher, I
must've been an incredibly nerdychild.
But that's what he wanted to be.
And my parents put up with thisand took me to all sorts of
(03:04):
museums, but fab parents.
But I kind of hit the three yearmark in my postdoc and it just
wasn't for me.
There was a lot of politics,which was part and parcel of
universities.
Universities are full ofpolitics.
I didn't get a couple offellowships that I applied for.
I wanted to do something else,but I wasn't sure what that
(03:26):
looked like.
I had all these thoughts goingaround my head, then I fell
pregnant with my first boy,who's now a strapping lad.
So that was gonna force somesort of change, but whilst I was
pregnant I broke my leg, so gotsigned off work because I
couldn't move, couldn't dopregnancy and crutches.
So I had enforced reflectiontime and I think time to reflect
(03:49):
on where we're at in our careersand, you know, kind of really do
that hard thinking.
It's easy to push to the side.
It's easy to go, Oh, I'll dothat later.
Or, you know, it's not an urgenttask.
I had six weeks sat on my bumhaving to, think, to cut a long
story short.
(04:10):
I decided that I wanted to dosomething else.
I wasn't sure what that was.
So I stayed at home, with Ben,for the first eight to nine
months and then saw anopportunity to work in the
university.
So in a sector that I knew, butin a very different arena,
providing training, for PhDs andpostdocs.
(04:31):
Thought I'd escape theuniversity Universities are
quite big.
Cambridge is a big universityaround here, so it drew me back
in.
Nigel Rawlins (04:38):
I did something similar.
I was an elementary school orprimary school teacher in
Australia for 16 years before Iquit and jumped out to start a
business.
The only problem was I had noidea what business that was and
I had already jumped, which iscrazy.
So what led you, 15 years ago tostart your own business and what
(04:59):
was that about?
Emma Williams (05:00):
So when I moved into the professional services
side of the university, it was anew arena for me.
It was about training anddevelopment, learning and
development.
It's something that people don'tactively choose.
No one grows up going, what, Ireally want to be a trainer.
It's not like, a truck driver ora bin lorry man or anything like
(05:21):
that, it's not a visibleprofession.
But I really loved it.
and what really ignited mypassion was being able to see
those light bulbs go on for thepeople.
So, I loved my job.
I was good at it.
I then got promoted.
And I got promoted to beeffectively head of the section.
But I spent a large amount oftime in committee meetings.
(05:43):
And university committeemeetings really don't do it for
me.
There are a lot of them.
And, I felt that I was at home,in the office, doing the
paperwork, and my team were out,as I perceived it, having fun.
So they were doing the training,the development.
(06:03):
They were seeing thoselightbulbs, whereas I was
sitting, staring at committeepapers.
And it was in one of thosecommittee meetings where, and I
think we all have these sort oftrigger moments in our careers,
where someone probably justquite flippantly was, speaking
and they said, we come to workbecause we love it.
And it was like being smacked bya double decker bus.
(06:25):
Imagine a big, red, iconicLondon bus.
It felt like I'd been hit by oneof those, and I just sat there
and realized actually, I don'tlove it.
At which point, you can eithergo down the despair route or you
can go, I have to do somethingabout it.
So very much the proactive stepof, okay, what am I going to do?
(06:46):
I'd taken the promotion as, Italk about travelator decisions.
So, you know, those flatescalators that you get in
airports that you jump on withyour suitcase and you go off
into the distance and everyoneelse is actually walking faster
either side.
But anyway, there's onetravelator, there's three or
four steps on normal ground andthen there's another one.
(07:08):
So that automatic careerdecision is never a great one.
Whereas, where the three or foursteps on real ground are, where
the gates are, so you could gooff to all sorts of marvellous
destinations and yet you've gota travelator right in front of
you.
So I'd made automatic decisionsto get to that point and I was
determined not to do that again.
(07:30):
I looked at everything.
I forced that wide open scan.
I opened our, this was how longthis was ago, because I opened
the newspaper, like a physicalnewspaper, and read the jobs
advert.
And in Cambridge, our newspaperis full of, a huge variety of
things from, professor at theuniversity to, working in a
coffee shop.
There were huge, range of jobsand I'm forced myself to look at
(07:53):
every single one.
If I didn't understand a title,I drilled into it.
Boy, did I find a lot of jobs Ididn't want to do.
That was, the big piece oflearning.
There were a lot of jobs outthere.
A lot of jobs that I could do,but then that extra filter of,
no, I don't want to do that.
So I had that inkling of wantingto go out by myself and do the
(08:16):
training and development that Iloved, but under my own banner.
But I didn't want to make thatdefault decision, so I looked at
everything else.
Nothing else was as attractiveas going out by myself.
So that's why I made thatdecision.
I did have some work lined up,so a colleague had gone to work
for another university, sothey'd, given me some work.
(08:39):
But I did, a bit like you Nigel,I felt that I was just leaping
into not quite the void.
I did have some work lined upbut it was still that massive
leap and you know, kind of that,yeah, the little gut wrenching
feeling somewhere inside, Ithink.
Nigel Rawlins (08:56):
I think it's a bit scary because, you know, at
least if you've got a job,there's a regular paycheck
coming in.
Whereas when you work foryourself, you've got to earn the
money first and then get paidand pay for your expenses.
It's not as simple anymore.
do you miss anything from theold days?
Emma Williams (09:14):
What do I miss?
I think I miss, because I'm asolopreneur, I miss having a
team.
I absolutely do.
You know, I had an amazing team.
That wasn't what I left.
So team, if you're listening,you were great.
I miss those, standing aroundthe kettle moments, you know, we
had a very slow kettle, but itwas great for conversations.
(09:35):
I miss that, interaction, justbeing able to bounce ideas off.
That was the one thing thatactually for getting into
business, I was probably quiteslow off the mark on this, but I
really needed that soundingboard, those colleagues, if you
like, even though I was in myown business.
So I sought, eventually soughtthose out.
(09:56):
So there's a, in the UK, there'sa great, organization run by
Sharon Gaskin for trainers,called the Trainers Training
Company.
And, she ran events and I verytimidly turned up to one.
And it was full of people likeme.
They were all doing differentsorts of training, but they were
all freelance.
We all had the same problems.
(10:19):
We were all seeking the bestaccountant in the world.
So it was lovely to just immerseyourself into that.
Again, having that team aroundyou, so people who knew what was
going on, you didn't have toexplain the not so tragic
backstory.
But, yeah, that support networkI think was really pivotal and
(10:39):
I'm sad to say that I probablyfound that about two, three
years into my business and Iwish I'd thought something like
that out at the start, thatwould just have been that extra
support network.
Nigel Rawlins (10:50):
I was very lucky.
I bumped into a mentor whohelped me, do what I now do.
But, the podcast and theWisepreneurs is like a project,
a side project, but it's takingup all my time.
Okay.
So what is the business you'rein now?
Emma Williams (11:05):
So, I coach, write speak and train, brainy
people.
So usually post PhD, I createspaces for them to help them
move on.
So universities employ me tocome and talk and work with
their researchers.
And, I specialise in that careertransition.
(11:26):
I think for me, that's reallythe interesting bit.
So, people who might want tostay in academia, but trying to
make that next step is quitetough.
In academia, there are lots ofPhD students and lots of
postdocs, but there aren't thatmany permanent tenure track type
(11:46):
positions.
I help people do that, or themajority of people, because
there aren't so manyletterships, have to go out into
the real world.
So I help them transition into,finding things that they want to
do, that they're going to moveforward proactively, positively.
And when we manage to worktogether and do that, that's
(12:08):
really the buzz that I get outof it.
Nigel Rawlins (12:10):
In terms of universities, obviously we're
talking some very academicpeople.
I'm hoping that means they'reintelligent as well.
But, what's going on in theuniversities, they can't keep
these people employed.
Because obviously they're verybright.
Emma Williams (12:23):
Yes.
extremely bright.
Sometimes very brainy, butperhaps with not too much common
sense, or at least anunderstanding of life outside
academia.
Academia at the minute, if wethink of it as a very flat
pyramid, we need, certainly inSTEM, we need a lot of people to
do the research.
(12:44):
biological sciences, we needpeople to do pipetting, and
various other things.
So it's quite labour intensive.
The robots haven't quite takenover yet.
Give it time.
But it's quite labour intensiveat that point.
If you think about a lecturehall and teaching
undergraduates, you need oneperson at the front and you can
stack your lecture hall withtwo, three hundred people.
(13:06):
So, you know, to some extentit's a numbers game.
In the UK our university systemis strapped for cash at the
minute.
The people that I work with areemployed on research grants.
But those come from, researchfunders, in the main taxpayer's
(13:26):
money.
But they sit within a universitythat is largely supported by an
undergraduate population aswell.
So, we can't, take away theteaching side of the university
from the research side.
They are intermingled, becausethey have that symbiotic
relationship, with the money.
In the UK, we're struggling atthe moment, or certainly some
(13:48):
universities are with finances,and that's partly because of our
visa outlook, and so we can'tget foreign students in and we
can charge a bit more for those,so that's affecting, finances.
But also just the generaldownturn in the economy has,
affected tax income andtherefore, research income into
(14:10):
universities.
So, it's a difficult place to beat the minute in academia.
I think it's probably a littlebit more difficult than when I
came out with my, PhD inPostdoc.
in intervening, 30 years,almost.
Nigel Rawlins (14:24):
So would you say that, these, very bright people
have got student debts as well?
Emma Williams (14:30):
Yeah, huge student debt.
So that's, that's the othermassive thing that's changed
since I went to university, Iwas lucky enough to get a grant.
We were pretty much the end ofstudents with grants.
So my kids, two of whom, wellone's just finished uni, he's
now a teacher, and the other oneis still going through, third
(14:51):
one is still debating on theuniversity, but he's looking at
a wall of debt that is probably,you know, 70, 80k,
Nigel Rawlins (14:58):
That's pounds.
Emma Williams (14:59):
It starts in pounds.
the King's pounds.
So absolutely, I think, youknow, people coming out of
university have got that debt.
so to do further study.
So if you're coming out withyour bachelor's or integrated
master's and you're looking at aPhD, that's another three years
(15:20):
on stipend.
You can live on it just about,but you're not going to get
rich.
And then transitioning into apostdoc, you're probably on
around, 40, 000 pounds, which isan okay salary, but is perhaps
not as much as you could getelsewhere with that level of,
skills and experience.
(15:40):
So it's an interesting one.
People cling to academia becauseI think that's what they know,
but financially it's probablynot, a wise move, especially
thinking about paying back thatdebt.
Nigel Rawlins (15:55):
I encouraged both my boys to become tradesmen.
Emma Williams (15:59):
hmm.
And
Nigel Rawlins (15:59):
both have done very well.
They're still young, very wellfinancially, you know, owning
properties, earning good moneyand, enjoying their lives, and
no debt.
Oh, apart from the housing loan,whereas my daughter, had, a
sociology degree and still, Ithink she's got some debt to pay
But it's very difficult, youknow, making that decision.
(16:21):
So obviously the people you'reworking with are very bright.
So they find it probably quiteeasy to do their studies.
So what can you do with them?
You mentioned before, it'sbasically STEM people.
So science people you're workingwith, and they've either got to
make a decision to transitioninto industry.
So how does that work?
Emma Williams (16:39):
Some inner obstacles.
So they're very, very bright andlargely they've been on this
track for a long time.
So there's a big, amount of thatsunk cost fallacy, which is when
we get dragged down by theprevious baggage.
So a simple example would be,you know, you've invested,£10 in
(17:02):
a concert ticket.
And then, for a band that wereokay.
And then someone else gives youa ticket.
worth£100 but they're gifting itto you for a band that you
really want to see on the samenight and there is something
about our brains that go butI've paid£10 for this ticket so
I'm gonna go and see the bandthat I don't really want to see
(17:25):
despite having the free ticket.
These people do that with theircareers.
So they go, well, I've been hereso long, they've probably done,
if they're in the uk, they'vedone four year degree, probably
with an integrated masters.
They might then have gone on anddone another masters.
I work with people who've gotmore degrees than fingers
sometimes.
(17:45):
And then they'll go on and do aPhD.
And in the UK a PhD takes aboutfour years.
So, they're already, you know,kind of looking at a good nine,
ten years, even more if they'vecome from perhaps the States or
Europe into the UK system, ofbeing a physicist, a chemist,
(18:06):
whatever it is, and to someextent that's all they know, but
also it's like, I've spent solong getting here, surely I
should stay, surely I shouldmake the most of it.
And that mental switch of movingis actually making the most of
it, as opposed to staying, is avery human one that we struggle
(18:30):
with.
So that sunk cost fallacy.
I think people are scared of theunknown, so they just don't know
what's out there.
They've been in academia, I talkabout academia being the itchy,
scratchy comfort blanket.
So we know it and we might wrapit around us.
We might moan about it.
It's got some itchy bits, youknow, they kind of dragged them
(18:51):
around and all sorts of things.
but we know it and we love it.
And it gives us a sense of whowe are.
So there is a big thing aboutidentity, but we need to sort of
take the blanket off a littlebit, peek out and see what's out
there.
Every day they do research intosomething really quite
difficult.
(19:12):
The number of differentresearchers that I work that's
part of what I love about my jobis that I get to hear all sorts
of people's research.
So I primarily work with STEM,though I have done sort of arts
and I once worked with someonewho was doing a PhD on London
street food.
And it was like, that is the oneto get funded for, you know,
(19:33):
three years hot dinners,basically.
Um,
Nigel Rawlins (19:39):
It sounds like they're about 30 years of age,
and they've never been out ofeducation, so, another big leap.
Emma Williams (19:46):
it is a big leap.
And, if I'm working withpostdoctoral researchers, then
they're in that middle of thatperfect storm in their lives of,
wanting to perhaps move on, butalso they might have a family,
they're looking to perhapssettle down.
The researcher population arehighly mobile because they're on
(20:10):
fixed term contracts that theyhave to move around.
They might want to settle down,somewhere.
they might have, parents whoneed a bit more attention, and
because they're a veryinternational population, that
might mean, heading closer tohome, wherever home might be.
So there's a lot going on intheir lives at that point.
(20:30):
I remember being, I think by thetime I was 30, I had one small
child, another one on the way.
We just, bought our first house.
There was a lot going on in ourworld.
And then you're making a pivotalcareer decision on top.
I think those sort of cruxmoments come at different
points.
(20:51):
I think now in business, mykids, I was about to say leave
home, but they can't affordhouses.
Nigel Rawlins (20:56):
Same here in Australia.
Emma Williams (20:56):
They're here, but they are, starting to enter the
world of work.
The youngest is about to go touni, so for me, that's a
different chapter and I thinkthat's, another transition
point.
But certainly to the people Iwork with, there's a lot boiling
up in their lives.
And that's, part and parcel ofthat.
They've been a long time there,they're usually 28, 30 by the
(21:20):
time I'm working with them.
So yeah, it's a long old road.
Nigel Rawlins (21:24):
Well, I see the same thing, with, non academics
as well, who are working in ajob.
They're professionals, butthey're not enjoying it anymore.
And that's the other difficultythey've got.
If you're earning good money,you've got a mortgage on your
house, it's hard to leave thatand do something else.
So, It's obvious that if theywere trying to do this on their
own, you'd be lost because wheredo you look?
(21:46):
Where's the transition?
What are the steps you take toget somewhere?
And how do you apply for a realjob when you've been in
academia?
So how do you help them?
Emma Williams (21:56):
So we usually start, start with where they're
at, obviously.
Getting them to look at, threereally important threads.
so the first one is, what I callthe gold thread of their values.
So what's actually important tothem?
What about that is important toyou?
And quite often it's, things ofbeing able to use their brain,
(22:19):
having a certain amount ofautonomy, Usually wanting to do
something great for the planetor the people stood on it, you
know, they're extremely,committed people that I work
with.
So we really drum down intotheir values and that golden
thread, I think withoutunderstanding our values and
(22:39):
what makes us tick inside atthis point, not what made us
tick when we started our role.
That is really important andit's something that I think
people wrestle with.
I think our values, certainlywhen I was first in the world of
development and came across,this sort of thing, it felt like
(23:00):
catching mist or catchingclouds.
It was like, how do I, pin downwho I am into, I don't know,
five magic words.
It was really hard, but it issomething that I force myself
now to do.
It used to be forcing it.
Now I'm looking forward to thatprocess.
So I've just redone my personalvalues as part of a rebranding
(23:22):
exercise.
And that autonomy is stillthere.
Creativity is a huge thing thatI value.
and being able to help people.
So those are probably my topthree.
But getting them to understandwhat their golden thread is.
They want to get on and find ajob and it's like, no, hang on,
let's do the back work here.
(23:43):
We've got to get a reallyconcrete foundation.
Otherwise you're going to choosesomething that is just a default
choice, that you feel that youshould make.
And that's just plain bonkers.
So, golden thread, reallyimportant.
The next one, especially forbrainy, sparkly people, is the
(24:04):
steel thread of their skills andtheir strengths.
So they are great at a greatmany things.
They're highly literate.
They spend their livescommunicating in written form
through journal articles and thelike, but also at conferences.
So they're usually pretty adeptat communicating.
(24:26):
They're highly numerate.
Even my fantastic researchers inhumanities and the arts because
they wrestle with data all thetime.
So they've got huge skills insort of data analysis.
They're project managers.
If you've done a PhD, you'vesolo managed a project for four
(24:46):
years with all the catastrophesen route.
And their biggest skill, Ithink, is just having that,
ability to find out.
So I could give them a problem,and they would start thinking
about, well, where would I gofor that?
Even if it's not in their field,they've just got that knack and
they don't realize that's askill.
(25:08):
So when I talk about their steelthread, I'm talking about their
strengths because they're greatat lots of things.
I really like the MarcusBuckingham definition of
strengths, which is those skillsthat make us feel strong.
So, I did a degree in physics.
I'm highly numerate.
If you give me a day full ofmaths, there isn't enough
chocolate and coffee in theworld, Nigel, to keep me going.
(25:31):
It's really not going to fill mewith joy.
If you give me some creativeproblem solving to do, I haven't
looked at the clock, you know,my coffee's gone cold.
I'm in flow.
And so it's really getting themto, almost giving them
permission to say, these are thethings that you love doing.
(25:51):
Where can we find those in theworld to work?
So we've got gold, we've gotsteel.
And then the final one isperhaps the, the most important
is the purple one.
So the purple thread is courageand they've got to have that
ability to go for it.
And I think, you know, when youwere saying that you'd left
your, teaching post and leaptinto the void, I think that leap
(26:15):
needs, you know, it's acourageous thing to do.
But it's also a dignified thingto do.
So the reason that I colored itpurple was thinking about the
suffragettes.
So it's tied into dignity andcourage and you're too talented
to be stuck.
You know, if you're stuck andyou're miserable, then give
(26:36):
yourself that permission to leapforward and do something for
yourself.
The only person who's ever goingto prioritize your career is
you.
You might have the mostfantastically supported partner,
or mentor, but you have to makethe leap and it's for you that
you're doing that.
That's where we start is thosethree threads.
Nigel Rawlins (26:57):
I was gonna say that is so applicable to
everybody too.
Emma Williams (27:01):
Yeah, absolutely.
Nigel Rawlins (27:02):
More dangerous for these people because they're
really in a dead end, aren'tthey really?
They're really going nowhere.
And that's the problem.
And they're so talented, whereasif at least you're in a job,
you've got some sort ofcontinuity provided, not in a
precarious, profession.
So where do some of these peoplego?
Emma Williams (27:21):
We need these bright, sparky people
everywhere.
Currently we're facing down anelection, seemingly like the
rest of the world, in the UK, wereally need people in politics
who understand graphs.
Nigel Rawlins (27:32):
No.
Emma Williams (27:33):
We'll be here all day.
So we need them in every aspectof our nation's economy.
Industry.
takes, a big chunk and,certainly around where we are,
we're a big hot spot for, bigpharma.
They absorb a lot of post docs,so, industry take a good lion's
(27:54):
share, but then when I'm workingwith researchers, they go, Oh,
I've got to move into industry.
And like, well, or whichindustry?
You know, I think when they seeit, I see those, you know, the
old fashioned picture of afactory with the slopey roof in
the big chimney, you know, thestandard clip art of industry.
They almost see that in theireyes and like industry's much
(28:16):
more varied than that, you know,kind of, there are, there are
the big AstraZeneca's of thisworld, there are the big finance
houses, but there are thestartups that can be, extremely
exciting to work with.
Interestingly with that,thinking about that
entrepreneurship, a lot of themthink, oh, but isn't that really
risky in London?
(28:37):
The university is offering you18 months contract, whereas a
startup that's been around for acouple of years probably has
more longevity than the 18months.
So I think there is somethingabout risk and reward that needs
to be happening in that.
But other people go into sort ofgovernment policy, the civil
(28:57):
service.
Still take, you know, quite a, agood chunk of, researchers.
One of my personal soapbox isencouraging people to think
about going, into either theirown business or other startup
businesses.
I think it's, an amazinglyexciting thing to do.
And provide some of thosevalues, you know, kind of, it's
(29:20):
autonomous, it's creative.
If you're in a small firm, youare, and Nigel, I'm sure you
know.
We have to do everything, don'twe?
Nigel Rawlins (29:27):
Yep.
Emma Williams (29:27):
You know, I'm my marketing department, but I'm
also my accounts department.
And I'm more the coffee girlthan anything else.
Nigel Rawlins (29:34):
Well, we should quickly mention coffee.
Why is that important to you?
It's because you've got it underyour name or who you are.
Emma Williams (29:41):
Yeah.
I've now managed to train, like,my successful branding was when
I turned up at a client and theywent, Oh, you love coffee.
Should we go and get the goodstuff?
Cause this stuff's rubbish.
And I'm like, yes, I've made it.
I've actually managed to do alittle bit of branding.
but I, I, yeah, I am.
yeah, very coffee fuelled.
(30:03):
So, it's early in the morninghere for me, so I've had a
coffee, but, and I've named mycoffee machine.
He's called Jacob.
He's my best friend, becauseit's usually just me and him and
the house.
Yeah, so coffee, coffee doesmake me tick, but also I think
it, it comes back to that socialaspect of, you know, I'm in the
(30:25):
UK, so we have a cuppa.
With people.
C U P P A.
We all have a cuppa.
Hopefully when I'm coachingpeople, I'm bringing that
friendly, relaxed, empathetic,style that you get when you're
having a cup of tea withsomeone.
When you're working through somebig stuff, You kind of need
(30:46):
that, space to care.
So I'm very much that, that'swoven through who I am and how I
approach, moving on.
Because it's a big thing.
Nigel Rawlins (30:56):
So what happened to that awful tea they used to
make, you know?
It's either too strong or milkysort of horrible
Emma Williams (31:03):
Yeah, and because I'm a self confessed coffee
drinker, when I make tea for,whoever's coming around, it's
like, right, here's the tea andhere's the milk, you do your
thing.
Nigel Rawlins (31:13):
Yes,
Emma Williams (31:14):
Because, getting in the way of the wrong colour
tea for a British person is,kind of the bad, bad side of
that.
Nigel Rawlins (31:20):
I was in England somebody made me a cup of tea.
And I normally have black teaand black coffee.
And they could not understandthat somebody could drink black
tea.
They wanted to put lemon in itand sugar in it.
Emma Williams (31:32):
Yeah.
Nigel Rawlins (31:32):
in Australia, we go camping and you can't always
take milk with you.
So I got used to black stuff.
I recently, read an article, bySteven Johnson, the ideas guy
and he was that, there's aproblem in, the sciences in
terms of they don't need so manypeople in technology anymore.
But because of AI, they'refinding that people who are
(31:54):
really good communicators and inthe humanities, can actually
work really well with AI,because it doesn't communicate
really well and it doesn't havea lot of cultural understanding.
Whereas if you have a humanitiesbackground or you've got a good
communication background, youcan actually communicate and be
helpful with AI, especially asit's spreading all through
(32:15):
industry.
I mean, I use it all day now.
I'm using it for all sorts ofthings to save myself time, to
fix stuff up, tell me aboutstuff, interpret stuff, tell me
how to automate stuff.
It gives me all theinstructions, you know, how to
rewrite that paragraph 15 timestill I get it right.
Are you finding that's going onwith AI yet?
(32:36):
Or that is a demand that you'rehearing?
Emma Williams (32:39):
I think I have a love hate relationship with it.
When I'm stuck, absolutelygetting on the AI and just
saying, right, give me threepointers for that and quite
often I think I just need thatlittle injection and then I'm
off to the races.
so it's great for getting overthat blank, blank page syndrome.
(33:00):
But then I sort of get into itand then I slowly become
terrified about it because it'sOh, this is very clever.
And so I think there has to be abalance where I've seen it work
really well in people's careersis, that sort of pump priming of
the AI.
Nigel Rawlins (33:17):
that's what I meant.
Emma Williams (33:18):
Here's my LinkedIn profile.
Here's some writing that I'vedone.
Here's, some jobs that I'minterested in.
can you pull out my key skills?
Nigel Rawlins (33:27):
Even more deeply is thinking through those sorts
of prompts.
For example, when I get thetranscript of this, I have, a
series of 15 prompts that I giveAI the transcript to pull out
things.
Now it'll pull out a whole rangeof things.
It'll write little articles,little snippets, find all the
quotes, but then I've still gotto work it.
(33:50):
But instead of me having to gothrough and do all that, that's
a fairly simple way of using it.
But asking the right question.
or giving it the right prompt toget the outcome you want does
take a skill.
And that's what I'm thinkingabout your people, and academics
as well, is, you know, most ofus think, oh, write me this or
(34:10):
give me three things.
You can get a lot more out ofit.
And I think that's what, StephenJohnson was talking about is to
really be able to think and askthose sorts of questions.
And I think your people could dothat.
Emma Williams (34:22):
I think you're right in that the more
humanities or thinking aboutsort of medical people who are
more patient focused, they havespent large amounts of time in
their PhDs looking at the rightquestion to ask.
Nigel Rawlins (34:37):
Yes.
Emma Williams (34:38):
It's all about the right question.
So they have that skill andagain, they might not be able to
articulate it, but they havethat magic skill and therefore
being able to look at a set ofdata, which is all AI is doing
is looking at whatever you'vegiven it, but being able to say,
right, this is the killerquestion.
(34:58):
They are brilliant at that.
And I think knowing where to askand knowing where to look, and
understanding the limitations ofdata.
Those are going to be big, bigskills.
And so for them to articulatethose, and I'm kind of hoping,
the arts and humanities reallydo see this as a skill and not
(35:21):
shy away because it is, computerbased.
I think, it's a way that we'regoing, so they need to, kind of
play the game as well, right?
Nigel Rawlins (35:28):
Well, that was my big worry, that look, I mean,
I've been in business now 25years, but I find a lot of
writing about business boring asanything.
and I'd much rather, read aboutliterature or philosophy or a
whole range of other topics thatI love.
and, you know, Universities arebeing pushed to, focus on STEM
(35:49):
and business, whereas thehumanities, if they connected
with tech, that might be thebest way to go, but we're not
getting that because I thinkyou'll find the politicians,
especially in election year,just lost the plot.
I'm very angry with politiciansat the moment too.
Emma Williams (36:04):
Yeah, I think that's probably echoed around
the world, to be honest, there,Nigel.
But I'm kind of hoping,definitely, because Third Child
wants to go and do Classics.
Nigel Rawlins (36:13):
Okay,
Emma Williams (36:13):
So the other two did sciences, and one's a
chemist, one's a physics mathsyperson, and then we've, we've
spawned a Classicist somewherealong the line.
Nigel Rawlins (36:25):
So how do people afford you?
I mean, do they get grants tocome and see you?
Do the universities say, Hey,look, we need you to come and
work with all these people?
What happens?
Emma Williams (36:33):
One of the reasons where my original sort
of way into this world came fromwas that back in 2002 there was
a report by Sir Gareth Robertsin the UK that said we need
these bright sparky people inall walks of life.
But what they're perhaps lackingare some of the, refinement of
(36:57):
their skills so that they'reapplicable to moving on in
academia or moving on out.
So there is an awareness of, asort of a skills gap or at least
the translation of the skillsthey've got into the real world.
So with that came some funding.
for universities to provide,initially, it was for PhD
(37:17):
students and now it's beenrolled out into postdocs as
well.
So that next bracket and thathas been slowly adopted.
Universities move very slowly.
It's partly why I'm in businessand not in a university anymore
and slowly been adopted topretty much PhD students and
postdocs can expect 10 daystraining a year, which is funded
(37:42):
by the university.
Now, training is very broad, sogoing to a conference could
count as training.
So universities buy me in towork with their researchers,
and, that might be in a largegroup, like 20 or so, or it
might be working, one to one.
(38:03):
Different universities vary asto how many researchers they
have.
So they can come via that routeor they can come individually.
And I think that pricing point,is one that is interesting
because people who really valuethat next step and value getting
it right, are probably willingto invest.
(38:25):
I'm not in the business ofcharging thousands and thousands
of pounds a day, Nigel, so Iwould say that I am affordable
for people who want toprioritise that.
Nigel Rawlins (38:37):
I think, people have got to realize that, if you
really need to, and it'sdifficult because there are so
many people out there, sellingcourses.
I've done some expensivecourses, which were absolutely
rubbish compared to the cheapercourses.
And it's really annoying.
So it's very difficult for them,but as a business person, you do
have to charge for your time.
Otherwise you can't survivethere.
(38:57):
I mean, if I wasn't lookingafter clients websites, I
couldn't afford to do thispodcast because I have to do
everything on it, so it actuallysubsidizes this project, or my
business sponsors this project,but you've also got some online
training and that's probably abit more affordable too, isn't
it?
Can you tell me something aboutthat?
Emma Williams (39:16):
So I've got a suite of online courses, which
means more than two.
Nigel Rawlins (39:19):
Mm
Emma Williams (39:20):
And the way that I try and think about it is that
I've got a ladder of offerings.
The books are sort of entrylevel, less than ten pounds, and
so, you know, kind of that's theentry.
And then I have courses, thatlook at getting a fellowship,
using LinkedIn effectively.
(39:41):
again, LinkedIn is seen as thisbusinessy thing, as opposed to
something that is manifestlyuseful if you're trying to find
a job.
One of my favorites is calledI'm a Postdoc, Get Me Out of
Here, still might have taken alittle bit off, a teleprogram
there, looking at moving on,successfully.
(40:01):
And then I have one based on thebusiness model canvas.
a tool that every entrepreneurshould be really familiar with.
It's such a fantastic tool, butI've taken that and turned it
into the researcher canvas.
So in the same way that abusiness model canvas looks at
everything to do with thebusiness, and you can have a
play, you get your post it notesout and you cover them
(40:23):
everywhere and you look atdifferent ways of running your
business.
The researcher canvas should beable to map out a research
project.
So, it'd be quite useful ifyou're in your PhD, but also
thinking about, if you'rethinking about applying for a
fellowship, that you have tocome up with your own project.
So, again, it can help you sortof scan over everything that you
(40:47):
need.
So, those are my four andthey're priced, a bit more than
the book.
They're very even if I say somyself.
and then we can go into sort ofindividual coaching.
So there is that ladder of,opportunity for people.
An hour with me by yourself.
we can do marvellous things.
So I, one of my pet things is Ilove getting into someone's CV
(41:10):
and really making it shine,
Nigel Rawlins (41:12):
So that's accelerating them from, you
know, if they've done yourcourses, they've got at least a
basis that you can discuss withthem, and even a couple of hours
sessions, one hour at a time isprobably sufficient, but yes,
that's going to really give themthe impetus that they require
and give them some homework togo and do.
So, what you're telling me isyou've written a book, you've
(41:33):
been in business, you've gotyour courses, which we call
passive income.
And I've been trying to pointout to people that this is what
a lot of women in business areable to do create their courses
and sell those, run theirbusiness.
And it's quite amazing.
So that's a wonderful thing.
Now, the last thing, becausewe're coming towards the end
(41:53):
here You're interested inarchery.
Can you tell me something aboutwhy are you interested in
archery?
Emma Williams (41:58):
How old was he?
Eleven.
So it was probably six, sevenyears ago now.
he was desperate to do archery.
So he's a bit of a renaissanceman, that kid, he played the
harp, he loves chess, he wantsto do classics, and archery kind
of fitted in.
Yeah, I don't know, we must havebeen to one of these
reenactments and he'd seenlongbows and various other
(42:19):
things.
So he was desperate to do it,but he was 11, so as to have a
parent with you, and I thought,well, I could sit on the side
and watch him and get bored forthe entire day, or you could
join in.
So I did it, and I absolutelyloved it.
It was one of those I've neverbeen sporty Nigel, at all.
I was always the last person tobe picked for netball, which I
(42:41):
hated.
I did quite like hockey, thatwas quite good fun, but there
was a little bit of fightinginvolved in that, largely, so it
was good.
But, I absolutely loved it.
It's a sport that just you andyour bow.
looking at a target or it might,you might be out in the forest
shooting, all sorts of differentways of doing the same thing,
(43:03):
but it's just you and your bow,very mindful.
I am very, very twitchy person.
I, you know, sitting, meditatingis my definition of hell.
But me and my bow, you have toconcentrate.
on shooting.
if your mind wanders off to yourto do list or what so and so
said or whatever, that's it,your shot's gone.
(43:25):
So you have to concentrate.
but then once you've steppedback from the line and you've
shot your arrows, you've thengot a community of archers to
have a chat to.
So we joined, the marvelousNether Hall Archers, in
Cambridge.
Really friendly club.
I was chair for, a couple ofyears, handed that duty over,
(43:45):
and I now help beginners myself,so I'm a beginners course.
And I shoot recurve, which isthe one that you would see on
the Olympics.
But I have just made my ownlongbow.
So, I went to a girls school.
It wasn't a private girlsschool, it was just a state
girls school.
We did cookery and sewing, soI'd never done any woodwork.
(44:07):
But I took myself off with theyoungest to make a longbow.
Absolutely love the process andhave now been shooting that.
So yeah, I'm going back in time,back to, medieval longbow.
And it's a beautiful thing toshoot something that you've made
yourself as well.
So yeah, I'm a big enthusiast ofit.
It's one of those sports that,you know, we can take all sorts
(44:30):
of people, even blind people canshoot, which is an interesting
one.
So yeah, I love it.
Nigel Rawlins (44:37):
That sounds fantastic.
Well done.
We could talk about your book?
Emma Williams (44:41):
Emma, at this point you need to point out
you've written three books.
Nigel Rawlins (44:45):
Have you?
Emma Williams (44:45):
So I've worked with, on my last couple of
books, the brilliant DebbieJenkins, who's a book coach
doesn't do her justice.
She's a bit of a book bully, butshe has a process that gets you
to done with your books.
So my first book I wrote withtwo other esteemed colleagues,
and that's called What EveryPostdoc Needs to Know.
(45:06):
Kind of does what it says on thetin on that one.
And we're just going through thethroes of the second edition,
which should be out later onthis year.
And so that got me into writing.
I chose physics because itdidn't involve writing.
And I think this is somethingthat our careers evolve.
and we can step into, ourstrengths that we discover along
(45:28):
the way.
I'd always thought, oh, I can'twrite because I'm good at
numbers.
And actually that's a nonsense.
but I think it's taken me awhile to become that sort of
wise women of the tribe typething.
Perhaps that's because when Itipped over 50 that happened, I
don't know.
But I think we're more aware ofwhat we want to do and we're
(45:48):
more aware of, our skills, Ithink, as we grow older.
I think there is also a littlebit of, I also don't care what
other people think, thrown intothat mix.
So on the back of that firstbook, I then took one of my
programs that I run foruniversity, the UNIQUE program,
which is aimed at womenresearchers, and turned it into
(46:09):
a book so that I could reachmore people.
And so that one was publishedlast year.
And then this year, I'm on aroll, I published Leaving
Academia, where I talk aboutditching that, that comfort
blanket and moving on.
And the interesting thing aboutthat book was that I was very
much writing it for my audience,but then people who've read it
(46:32):
have said, these are some greatcareer lessons.
So I talk about the threads inthat book.
I talk about the way that ourcareers evolve and give us those
more opportunities.
I have very many moreopportunities than I did as a 21
year old graduate.
Probably have a bit less energy,but I know what I want to do.
(46:52):
and then I'm trying to look foropportunities to do that rather
than, going, Oh, well, I'll dothis job.
So I think there is a certainliberation that comes with,
having those skills andexperiences and having enough
skills and experiences that wecan make those deliberate
choices.
I mean you said that you'veretired.
Doesn't look like it from hereat Nigel to be
Nigel Rawlins (47:13):
honest.
No.
I think my wife's really angrywith me because I spend so much
time working, but I'm still sortof running a business.
You could say, well, I still runa company.
plus this podcast, which yoursis going to be the 50th.
Emma Williams (47:26):
Exciting.
Love a round number
Nigel Rawlins (47:28):
Emma, I'll put all your books in the show notes
and I'll put links to yourcourses and I'll put links to
you in LinkedIn.
Is there any other way you'dlike people to contact you?
People can work with you fromall over the world, can't they?
Emma Williams (47:40):
Yep, the joys of the interwebs.
Yep, I can happily work withpeople all over and have done
actually.
Sometimes I've been lucky enoughto go face to face overseas.
I've worked in, in Singapore andplaces, but yeah, the joys of
the internet, I think, andthat's another sort of
liberating factor in our careersis that, we can, we can be
(48:00):
anywhere, we can work anywhere.
You know, if I told my 21 yearold self we could do this, I
think I would have been makingit up back when the internet was
new, but yeah, brilliant.
probably if you want to know abit more about me, my LinkedIn
is the best, place, which isEmma Williams Training.
There are lots of EmmaWilliamses.
Always have an original name.
(48:21):
That would be my, thing to tellmy younger self.
Go back and rename myself.
Nigel Rawlins (48:26):
My last guest was Kate Toon, T O O N.
So there you go.
Nobody else's name.
And she's English.
So that's a name that you'dnever forget.
All right, well, thank you verymuch, Emma, for joining me on
the podcast.
Emma Williams (48:40):
It's been great fun.
Join us is Emma Williams, a former academic
turned coach shares her journeyfrom academia to
entrepreneurship.
She discusses how she helps PhDsand postdocs, navigate career
transitions out of universitiesby uncovering their skills and
abilities suitable fornon-academic roles.
Whether or not you've got a PhDEmma's insights into
(00:23):
self-reflection, skill transferand building support networks
are invaluable for anyonelooking to thrive in their
career.
In this episode, Emma providespractical advice and strategies
to help you make informeddecisions and achieve
professional success.
Emma, welcome to theWisepreneurs podcast, would you
(00:44):
like to tell us something aboutyourself and where you're from?
Emma Williams (00:47):
So thank you for having me, it's very exciting.
I am an ex academic who has hadher own business now for 15
years.
I'm based just south ofCambridge in the UK, and we are
currently basking in the world'sworst summer.
Nigel Rawlins (01:03):
Now, on LinkedIn, you call yourself Emma, the
nerd, coach, physicist and PhD.
Emma Williams (01:12):
So, self confession, I am a little bit of
a nerd.
I love sci fi, can recite mostof the Star Wars films.
my little, appellation of thenerd coach refers to me, but
also, a lot of people who I workwith are very, bright, sparky,
PhD plus people in universities.
(01:33):
I tend to work majority withSTEM people just because there
are more of those in ouruniversities, at that PhD plus
level.
They do tend to be a little bitnerdy.
They tend to resonate with thatnerd coach.
A long time ago, when dinosaursroamed the earth, I did a degree
in physics at Cambridge, but Iam super chatty so don't turn
(01:54):
off now.
and then moved into a PhDlooking at Magnetic Resonance
Imaging.
So, I was looking at scanningthe brain, something that we
have in hospitals, but I was onthe research end of that looking
at brain function, when that wasquite a new field.
So that was my PhD.
And then I did, three and a halfyears postdoctoral research at
(02:16):
the teaching hospital here inCambridge.
So the very mighty AddenbrookesHospital.
Nigel Rawlins (02:21):
And do you work in a university as well?
Emma Williams (02:23):
Yes.
So, the teaching hospital ispart and parcel of the
university.
They're sort of intermingled.
my boss was a neurosurgeon, butmy, immediate, supervisor was an
academic.
so I was going down the academicroute.
I wanted to stay in academia.
I applied for fellowships andvarious other things that
(02:43):
academics do, but decided.
that academia wasn't for meabout three and a half years in.
it was a massive decision.
I'd always wanted to be, since Iwas little, a researcher, I
must've been an incredibly nerdychild.
But that's what he wanted to be.
And my parents put up with thisand took me to all sorts of
(03:04):
museums, but fab parents.
But I kind of hit the three yearmark in my postdoc and it just
wasn't for me.
There was a lot of politics,which was part and parcel of
universities.
Universities are full ofpolitics.
I didn't get a couple offellowships that I applied for.
I wanted to do something else,but I wasn't sure what that
(03:26):
looked like.
I had all these thoughts goingaround my head, then I fell
pregnant with my first boy,who's now a strapping lad.
So that was gonna force somesort of change, but whilst I was
pregnant I broke my leg, so gotsigned off work because I
couldn't move, couldn't dopregnancy and crutches.
So I had enforced reflectiontime and I think time to reflect
(03:49):
on where we're at in our careersand, you know, kind of really do
that hard thinking.
It's easy to push to the side.
It's easy to go, Oh, I'll dothat later.
Or, you know, it's not an urgenttask.
I had six weeks sat on my bumhaving to, think, to cut a long
story short.
(04:10):
I decided that I wanted to dosomething else.
I wasn't sure what that was.
So I stayed at home, with Ben,for the first eight to nine
months and then saw anopportunity to work in the
university.
So in a sector that I knew, butin a very different arena,
providing training, for PhDs andpostdocs.
(04:31):
Thought I'd escape theuniversity Universities are
quite big.
Cambridge is a big universityaround here, so it drew me back
in.
Nigel Rawlins (04:38):
I did something similar.
I was an elementary school orprimary school teacher in
Australia for 16 years before Iquit and jumped out to start a
business.
The only problem was I had noidea what business that was and
I had already jumped, which iscrazy.
So what led you, 15 years ago tostart your own business and what
(04:59):
was that about?
Emma Williams (05:00):
So when I moved into the professional services
side of the university, it was anew arena for me.
It was about training anddevelopment, learning and
development.
It's something that people don'tactively choose.
No one grows up going, what, Ireally want to be a trainer.
It's not like, a truck driver ora bin lorry man or anything like
(05:21):
that, it's not a visibleprofession.
But I really loved it.
and what really ignited mypassion was being able to see
those light bulbs go on for thepeople.
So, I loved my job.
I was good at it.
I then got promoted.
And I got promoted to beeffectively head of the section.
But I spent a large amount oftime in committee meetings.
(05:43):
And university committeemeetings really don't do it for
me.
There are a lot of them.
And, I felt that I was at home,in the office, doing the
paperwork, and my team were out,as I perceived it, having fun.
So they were doing the training,the development.
(06:03):
They were seeing thoselightbulbs, whereas I was
sitting, staring at committeepapers.
And it was in one of thosecommittee meetings where, and I
think we all have these sort oftrigger moments in our careers,
where someone probably justquite flippantly was, speaking
and they said, we come to workbecause we love it.
And it was like being smacked bya double decker bus.
(06:25):
Imagine a big, red, iconicLondon bus.
It felt like I'd been hit by oneof those, and I just sat there
and realized actually, I don'tlove it.
At which point, you can eithergo down the despair route or you
can go, I have to do somethingabout it.
So very much the proactive stepof, okay, what am I going to do?
(06:46):
I'd taken the promotion as, Italk about travelator decisions.
So, you know, those flatescalators that you get in
airports that you jump on withyour suitcase and you go off
into the distance and everyoneelse is actually walking faster
either side.
But anyway, there's onetravelator, there's three or
four steps on normal ground andthen there's another one.
(07:08):
So that automatic careerdecision is never a great one.
Whereas, where the three or foursteps on real ground are, where
the gates are, so you could gooff to all sorts of marvellous
destinations and yet you've gota travelator right in front of
you.
So I'd made automatic decisionsto get to that point and I was
determined not to do that again.
(07:30):
I looked at everything.
I forced that wide open scan.
I opened our, this was how longthis was ago, because I opened
the newspaper, like a physicalnewspaper, and read the jobs
advert.
And in Cambridge, our newspaperis full of, a huge variety of
things from, professor at theuniversity to, working in a
coffee shop.
There were huge, range of jobsand I'm forced myself to look at
(07:53):
every single one.
If I didn't understand a title,I drilled into it.
Boy, did I find a lot of jobs Ididn't want to do.
That was, the big piece oflearning.
There were a lot of jobs outthere.
A lot of jobs that I could do,but then that extra filter of,
no, I don't want to do that.
So I had that inkling of wantingto go out by myself and do the
(08:16):
training and development that Iloved, but under my own banner.
But I didn't want to make thatdefault decision, so I looked at
everything else.
Nothing else was as attractiveas going out by myself.
So that's why I made thatdecision.
I did have some work lined up,so a colleague had gone to work
for another university, sothey'd, given me some work.
(08:39):
But I did, a bit like you Nigel,I felt that I was just leaping
into not quite the void.
I did have some work lined upbut it was still that massive
leap and you know, kind of that,yeah, the little gut wrenching
feeling somewhere inside, Ithink.
Nigel Rawlins (08:56):
I think it's a bit scary because, you know, at
least if you've got a job,there's a regular paycheck
coming in.
Whereas when you work foryourself, you've got to earn the
money first and then get paidand pay for your expenses.
It's not as simple anymore.
do you miss anything from theold days?
Emma Williams (09:14):
What do I miss?
I think I miss, because I'm asolopreneur, I miss having a
team.
I absolutely do.
You know, I had an amazing team.
That wasn't what I left.
So team, if you're listening,you were great.
I miss those, standing aroundthe kettle moments, you know, we
had a very slow kettle, but itwas great for conversations.
(09:35):
I miss that, interaction, justbeing able to bounce ideas off.
That was the one thing thatactually for getting into
business, I was probably quiteslow off the mark on this, but I
really needed that soundingboard, those colleagues, if you
like, even though I was in myown business.
So I sought, eventually soughtthose out.
(09:56):
So there's a, in the UK, there'sa great, organization run by
Sharon Gaskin for trainers,called the Trainers Training
Company.
And, she ran events and I verytimidly turned up to one.
And it was full of people likeme.
They were all doing differentsorts of training, but they were
all freelance.
We all had the same problems.
(10:19):
We were all seeking the bestaccountant in the world.
So it was lovely to just immerseyourself into that.
Again, having that team aroundyou, so people who knew what was
going on, you didn't have toexplain the not so tragic
backstory.
But, yeah, that support networkI think was really pivotal and
(10:39):
I'm sad to say that I probablyfound that about two, three
years into my business and Iwish I'd thought something like
that out at the start, thatwould just have been that extra
support network.
Nigel Rawlins (10:50):
I was very lucky.
I bumped into a mentor whohelped me, do what I now do.
But, the podcast and theWisepreneurs is like a project,
a side project, but it's takingup all my time.
Okay.
So what is the business you'rein now?
Emma Williams (11:05):
So, I coach, write speak and train, brainy
people.
So usually post PhD, I createspaces for them to help them
move on.
So universities employ me tocome and talk and work with
their researchers.
And, I specialise in that careertransition.
(11:26):
I think for me, that's reallythe interesting bit.
So, people who might want tostay in academia, but trying to
make that next step is quitetough.
In academia, there are lots ofPhD students and lots of
postdocs, but there aren't thatmany permanent tenure track type
(11:46):
positions.
I help people do that, or themajority of people, because
there aren't so manyletterships, have to go out into
the real world.
So I help them transition into,finding things that they want to
do, that they're going to moveforward proactively, positively.
And when we manage to worktogether and do that, that's
(12:08):
really the buzz that I get outof it.
Nigel Rawlins (12:10):
In terms of universities, obviously we're
talking some very academicpeople.
I'm hoping that means they'reintelligent as well.
But, what's going on in theuniversities, they can't keep
these people employed.
Because obviously they're verybright.
Emma Williams (12:23):
Yes.
extremely bright.
Sometimes very brainy, butperhaps with not too much common
sense, or at least anunderstanding of life outside
academia.
Academia at the minute, if wethink of it as a very flat
pyramid, we need, certainly inSTEM, we need a lot of people to
do the research.
(12:44):
biological sciences, we needpeople to do pipetting, and
various other things.
So it's quite labour intensive.
The robots haven't quite takenover yet.
Give it time.
But it's quite labour intensiveat that point.
If you think about a lecturehall and teaching
undergraduates, you need oneperson at the front and you can
stack your lecture hall withtwo, three hundred people.
(13:06):
So, you know, to some extentit's a numbers game.
In the UK our university systemis strapped for cash at the
minute.
The people that I work with areemployed on research grants.
But those come from, researchfunders, in the main taxpayer's
(13:26):
money.
But they sit within a universitythat is largely supported by an
undergraduate population aswell.
So, we can't, take away theteaching side of the university
from the research side.
They are intermingled, becausethey have that symbiotic
relationship, with the money.
In the UK, we're struggling atthe moment, or certainly some
(13:48):
universities are with finances,and that's partly because of our
visa outlook, and so we can'tget foreign students in and we
can charge a bit more for those,so that's affecting, finances.
But also just the generaldownturn in the economy has,
affected tax income andtherefore, research income into
(14:10):
universities.
So, it's a difficult place to beat the minute in academia.
I think it's probably a littlebit more difficult than when I
came out with my, PhD inPostdoc.
in intervening, 30 years,almost.
Nigel Rawlins (14:24):
So would you say that, these, very bright people
have got student debts as well?
Emma Williams (14:30):
Yeah, huge student debt.
So that's, that's the othermassive thing that's changed
since I went to university, Iwas lucky enough to get a grant.
We were pretty much the end ofstudents with grants.
So my kids, two of whom, wellone's just finished uni, he's
now a teacher, and the other oneis still going through, third
(14:51):
one is still debating on theuniversity, but he's looking at
a wall of debt that is probably,you know, 70, 80k,
Nigel Rawlins (14:58):
That's pounds.
Emma Williams (14:59):
It starts in pounds.
the King's pounds.
So absolutely, I think, youknow, people coming out of
university have got that debt.
so to do further study.
So if you're coming out withyour bachelor's or integrated
master's and you're looking at aPhD, that's another three years
(15:20):
on stipend.
You can live on it just about,but you're not going to get
rich.
And then transitioning into apostdoc, you're probably on
around, 40, 000 pounds, which isan okay salary, but is perhaps
not as much as you could getelsewhere with that level of,
skills and experience.
(15:40):
So it's an interesting one.
People cling to academia becauseI think that's what they know,
but financially it's probablynot, a wise move, especially
thinking about paying back thatdebt.
Nigel Rawlins (15:55):
I encouraged both my boys to become tradesmen.
Emma Williams (15:59):
hmm.
And
Nigel Rawlins (15:59):
both have done very well.
They're still young, very wellfinancially, you know, owning
properties, earning good moneyand, enjoying their lives, and
no debt.
Oh, apart from the housing loan,whereas my daughter, had, a
sociology degree and still, Ithink she's got some debt to pay
But it's very difficult, youknow, making that decision.
(16:21):
So obviously the people you'reworking with are very bright.
So they find it probably quiteeasy to do their studies.
So what can you do with them?
You mentioned before, it'sbasically STEM people.
So science people you're workingwith, and they've either got to
make a decision to transitioninto industry.
So how does that work?
Emma Williams (16:39):
Some inner obstacles.
So they're very, very bright andlargely they've been on this
track for a long time.
So there's a big, amount of thatsunk cost fallacy, which is when
we get dragged down by theprevious baggage.
So a simple example would be,you know, you've invested,£10 in
(17:02):
a concert ticket.
And then, for a band that wereokay.
And then someone else gives youa ticket.
worth£100 but they're gifting itto you for a band that you
really want to see on the samenight and there is something
about our brains that go butI've paid£10 for this ticket so
I'm gonna go and see the bandthat I don't really want to see
(17:25):
despite having the free ticket.
These people do that with theircareers.
So they go, well, I've been hereso long, they've probably done,
if they're in the uk, they'vedone four year degree, probably
with an integrated masters.
They might then have gone on anddone another masters.
I work with people who've gotmore degrees than fingers
sometimes.
(17:45):
And then they'll go on and do aPhD.
And in the UK a PhD takes aboutfour years.
So, they're already, you know,kind of looking at a good nine,
ten years, even more if they'vecome from perhaps the States or
Europe into the UK system, ofbeing a physicist, a chemist,
(18:06):
whatever it is, and to someextent that's all they know, but
also it's like, I've spent solong getting here, surely I
should stay, surely I shouldmake the most of it.
And that mental switch of movingis actually making the most of
it, as opposed to staying, is avery human one that we struggle
(18:30):
with.
So that sunk cost fallacy.
I think people are scared of theunknown, so they just don't know
what's out there.
They've been in academia, I talkabout academia being the itchy,
scratchy comfort blanket.
So we know it and we might wrapit around us.
We might moan about it.
It's got some itchy bits, youknow, they kind of dragged them
(18:51):
around and all sorts of things.
but we know it and we love it.
And it gives us a sense of whowe are.
So there is a big thing aboutidentity, but we need to sort of
take the blanket off a littlebit, peek out and see what's out
there.
Every day they do research intosomething really quite
difficult.
(19:12):
The number of differentresearchers that I work that's
part of what I love about my jobis that I get to hear all sorts
of people's research.
So I primarily work with STEM,though I have done sort of arts
and I once worked with someonewho was doing a PhD on London
street food.
And it was like, that is the oneto get funded for, you know,
(19:33):
three years hot dinners,basically.
Um,
Nigel Rawlins (19:39):
It sounds like they're about 30 years of age,
and they've never been out ofeducation, so, another big leap.
Emma Williams (19:46):
it is a big leap.
And, if I'm working withpostdoctoral researchers, then
they're in that middle of thatperfect storm in their lives of,
wanting to perhaps move on, butalso they might have a family,
they're looking to perhapssettle down.
The researcher population arehighly mobile because they're on
(20:10):
fixed term contracts that theyhave to move around.
They might want to settle down,somewhere.
they might have, parents whoneed a bit more attention, and
because they're a veryinternational population, that
might mean, heading closer tohome, wherever home might be.
So there's a lot going on intheir lives at that point.
(20:30):
I remember being, I think by thetime I was 30, I had one small
child, another one on the way.
We just, bought our first house.
There was a lot going on in ourworld.
And then you're making a pivotalcareer decision on top.
I think those sort of cruxmoments come at different
points.
(20:51):
I think now in business, mykids, I was about to say leave
home, but they can't affordhouses.
Nigel Rawlins (20:56):
Same here in Australia.
Emma Williams (20:56):
They're here, but they are, starting to enter the
world of work.
The youngest is about to go touni, so for me, that's a
different chapter and I thinkthat's, another transition
point.
But certainly to the people Iwork with, there's a lot boiling
up in their lives.
And that's, part and parcel ofthat.
They've been a long time there,they're usually 28, 30 by the
(21:20):
time I'm working with them.
So yeah, it's a long old road.
Nigel Rawlins (21:24):
Well, I see the same thing, with, non academics
as well, who are working in ajob.
They're professionals, butthey're not enjoying it anymore.
And that's the other difficultythey've got.
If you're earning good money,you've got a mortgage on your
house, it's hard to leave thatand do something else.
So, It's obvious that if theywere trying to do this on their
own, you'd be lost because wheredo you look?
(21:46):
Where's the transition?
What are the steps you take toget somewhere?
And how do you apply for a realjob when you've been in
academia?
So how do you help them?
Emma Williams (21:56):
So we usually start, start with where they're
at, obviously.
Getting them to look at, threereally important threads.
so the first one is, what I callthe gold thread of their values.
So what's actually important tothem?
What about that is important toyou?
And quite often it's, things ofbeing able to use their brain,
(22:19):
having a certain amount ofautonomy, Usually wanting to do
something great for the planetor the people stood on it, you
know, they're extremely,committed people that I work
with.
So we really drum down intotheir values and that golden
thread, I think withoutunderstanding our values and
(22:39):
what makes us tick inside atthis point, not what made us
tick when we started our role.
That is really important andit's something that I think
people wrestle with.
I think our values, certainlywhen I was first in the world of
development and came across,this sort of thing, it felt like
(23:00):
catching mist or catchingclouds.
It was like, how do I, pin downwho I am into, I don't know,
five magic words.
It was really hard, but it issomething that I force myself
now to do.
It used to be forcing it.
Now I'm looking forward to thatprocess.
So I've just redone my personalvalues as part of a rebranding
(23:22):
exercise.
And that autonomy is stillthere.
Creativity is a huge thing thatI value.
and being able to help people.
So those are probably my topthree.
But getting them to understandwhat their golden thread is.
They want to get on and find ajob and it's like, no, hang on,
let's do the back work here.
(23:43):
We've got to get a reallyconcrete foundation.
Otherwise you're going to choosesomething that is just a default
choice, that you feel that youshould make.
And that's just plain bonkers.
So, golden thread, reallyimportant.
The next one, especially forbrainy, sparkly people, is the
(24:04):
steel thread of their skills andtheir strengths.
So they are great at a greatmany things.
They're highly literate.
They spend their livescommunicating in written form
through journal articles and thelike, but also at conferences.
So they're usually pretty adeptat communicating.
(24:26):
They're highly numerate.
Even my fantastic researchers inhumanities and the arts because
they wrestle with data all thetime.
So they've got huge skills insort of data analysis.
They're project managers.
If you've done a PhD, you'vesolo managed a project for four
(24:46):
years with all the catastrophesen route.
And their biggest skill, Ithink, is just having that,
ability to find out.
So I could give them a problem,and they would start thinking
about, well, where would I gofor that?
Even if it's not in their field,they've just got that knack and
they don't realize that's askill.
(25:08):
So when I talk about their steelthread, I'm talking about their
strengths because they're greatat lots of things.
I really like the MarcusBuckingham definition of
strengths, which is those skillsthat make us feel strong.
So, I did a degree in physics.
I'm highly numerate.
If you give me a day full ofmaths, there isn't enough
chocolate and coffee in theworld, Nigel, to keep me going.
(25:31):
It's really not going to fill mewith joy.
If you give me some creativeproblem solving to do, I haven't
looked at the clock, you know,my coffee's gone cold.
I'm in flow.
And so it's really getting themto, almost giving them
permission to say, these are thethings that you love doing.
(25:51):
Where can we find those in theworld to work?
So we've got gold, we've gotsteel.
And then the final one isperhaps the, the most important
is the purple one.
So the purple thread is courageand they've got to have that
ability to go for it.
And I think, you know, when youwere saying that you'd left
your, teaching post and leaptinto the void, I think that leap
(26:15):
needs, you know, it's acourageous thing to do.
But it's also a dignified thingto do.
So the reason that I colored itpurple was thinking about the
suffragettes.
So it's tied into dignity andcourage and you're too talented
to be stuck.
You know, if you're stuck andyou're miserable, then give
(26:36):
yourself that permission to leapforward and do something for
yourself.
The only person who's ever goingto prioritize your career is
you.
You might have the mostfantastically supported partner,
or mentor, but you have to makethe leap and it's for you that
you're doing that.
That's where we start is thosethree threads.
Nigel Rawlins (26:57):
I was gonna say that is so applicable to
everybody too.
Emma Williams (27:01):
Yeah, absolutely.
Nigel Rawlins (27:02):
More dangerous for these people because they're
really in a dead end, aren'tthey really?
They're really going nowhere.
And that's the problem.
And they're so talented, whereasif at least you're in a job,
you've got some sort ofcontinuity provided, not in a
precarious, profession.
So where do some of these peoplego?
Emma Williams (27:21):
We need these bright, sparky people
everywhere.
Currently we're facing down anelection, seemingly like the
rest of the world, in the UK, wereally need people in politics
who understand graphs.
Nigel Rawlins (27:32):
No.
Emma Williams (27:33):
We'll be here all day.
So we need them in every aspectof our nation's economy.
Industry.
takes, a big chunk and,certainly around where we are,
we're a big hot spot for, bigpharma.
They absorb a lot of post docs,so, industry take a good lion's
(27:54):
share, but then when I'm workingwith researchers, they go, Oh,
I've got to move into industry.
And like, well, or whichindustry?
You know, I think when they seeit, I see those, you know, the
old fashioned picture of afactory with the slopey roof in
the big chimney, you know, thestandard clip art of industry.
They almost see that in theireyes and like industry's much
(28:16):
more varied than that, you know,kind of, there are, there are
the big AstraZeneca's of thisworld, there are the big finance
houses, but there are thestartups that can be, extremely
exciting to work with.
Interestingly with that,thinking about that
entrepreneurship, a lot of themthink, oh, but isn't that really
risky in London?
(28:37):
The university is offering you18 months contract, whereas a
startup that's been around for acouple of years probably has
more longevity than the 18months.
So I think there is somethingabout risk and reward that needs
to be happening in that.
But other people go into sort ofgovernment policy, the civil
(28:57):
service.
Still take, you know, quite a, agood chunk of, researchers.
One of my personal soapbox isencouraging people to think
about going, into either theirown business or other startup
businesses.
I think it's, an amazinglyexciting thing to do.
And provide some of thosevalues, you know, kind of, it's
(29:20):
autonomous, it's creative.
If you're in a small firm, youare, and Nigel, I'm sure you
know.
We have to do everything, don'twe?
Nigel Rawlins (29:27):
Yep.
Emma Williams (29:27):
You know, I'm my marketing department, but I'm
also my accounts department.
And I'm more the coffee girlthan anything else.
Nigel Rawlins (29:34):
Well, we should quickly mention coffee.
Why is that important to you?
It's because you've got it underyour name or who you are.
Emma Williams (29:41):
Yeah.
I've now managed to train, like,my successful branding was when
I turned up at a client and theywent, Oh, you love coffee.
Should we go and get the goodstuff?
Cause this stuff's rubbish.
And I'm like, yes, I've made it.
I've actually managed to do alittle bit of branding.
but I, I, yeah, I am.
yeah, very coffee fuelled.
(30:03):
So, it's early in the morninghere for me, so I've had a
coffee, but, and I've named mycoffee machine.
He's called Jacob.
He's my best friend, becauseit's usually just me and him and
the house.
Yeah, so coffee, coffee doesmake me tick, but also I think
it, it comes back to that socialaspect of, you know, I'm in the
(30:25):
UK, so we have a cuppa.
With people.
C U P P A.
We all have a cuppa.
Hopefully when I'm coachingpeople, I'm bringing that
friendly, relaxed, empathetic,style that you get when you're
having a cup of tea withsomeone.
When you're working through somebig stuff, You kind of need
(30:46):
that, space to care.
So I'm very much that, that'swoven through who I am and how I
approach, moving on.
Because it's a big thing.
Nigel Rawlins (30:56):
So what happened to that awful tea they used to
make, you know?
It's either too strong or milkysort of horrible
Emma Williams (31:03):
Yeah, and because I'm a self confessed coffee
drinker, when I make tea for,whoever's coming around, it's
like, right, here's the tea andhere's the milk, you do your
thing.
Nigel Rawlins (31:13):
Yes,
Emma Williams (31:14):
Because, getting in the way of the wrong colour
tea for a British person is,kind of the bad, bad side of
that.
Nigel Rawlins (31:20):
I was in England somebody made me a cup of tea.
And I normally have black teaand black coffee.
And they could not understandthat somebody could drink black
tea.
They wanted to put lemon in itand sugar in it.
Emma Williams (31:32):
Yeah.
Nigel Rawlins (31:32):
in Australia, we go camping and you can't always
take milk with you.
So I got used to black stuff.
I recently, read an article, bySteven Johnson, the ideas guy
and he was that, there's aproblem in, the sciences in
terms of they don't need so manypeople in technology anymore.
But because of AI, they'refinding that people who are
(31:54):
really good communicators and inthe humanities, can actually
work really well with AI,because it doesn't communicate
really well and it doesn't havea lot of cultural understanding.
Whereas if you have a humanitiesbackground or you've got a good
communication background, youcan actually communicate and be
helpful with AI, especially asit's spreading all through
(32:15):
industry.
I mean, I use it all day now.
I'm using it for all sorts ofthings to save myself time, to
fix stuff up, tell me aboutstuff, interpret stuff, tell me
how to automate stuff.
It gives me all theinstructions, you know, how to
rewrite that paragraph 15 timestill I get it right.
Are you finding that's going onwith AI yet?
(32:36):
Or that is a demand that you'rehearing?
Emma Williams (32:39):
I think I have a love hate relationship with it.
When I'm stuck, absolutelygetting on the AI and just
saying, right, give me threepointers for that and quite
often I think I just need thatlittle injection and then I'm
off to the races.
so it's great for getting overthat blank, blank page syndrome.
(33:00):
But then I sort of get into itand then I slowly become
terrified about it because it'sOh, this is very clever.
And so I think there has to be abalance where I've seen it work
really well in people's careersis, that sort of pump priming of
the AI.
Nigel Rawlins (33:17):
that's what I meant.
Emma Williams (33:18):
Here's my LinkedIn profile.
Here's some writing that I'vedone.
Here's, some jobs that I'minterested in.
can you pull out my key skills?
Nigel Rawlins (33:27):
Even more deeply is thinking through those sorts
of prompts.
For example, when I get thetranscript of this, I have, a
series of 15 prompts that I giveAI the transcript to pull out
things.
Now it'll pull out a whole rangeof things.
It'll write little articles,little snippets, find all the
quotes, but then I've still gotto work it.
(33:50):
But instead of me having to gothrough and do all that, that's
a fairly simple way of using it.
But asking the right question.
or giving it the right prompt toget the outcome you want does
take a skill.
And that's what I'm thinkingabout your people, and academics
as well, is, you know, most ofus think, oh, write me this or
(34:10):
give me three things.
You can get a lot more out ofit.
And I think that's what, StephenJohnson was talking about is to
really be able to think and askthose sorts of questions.
And I think your people could dothat.
Emma Williams (34:22):
I think you're right in that the more
humanities or thinking aboutsort of medical people who are
more patient focused, they havespent large amounts of time in
their PhDs looking at the rightquestion to ask.
Nigel Rawlins (34:37):
Yes.
Emma Williams (34:38):
It's all about the right question.
So they have that skill andagain, they might not be able to
articulate it, but they havethat magic skill and therefore
being able to look at a set ofdata, which is all AI is doing
is looking at whatever you'vegiven it, but being able to say,
right, this is the killerquestion.
(34:58):
They are brilliant at that.
And I think knowing where to askand knowing where to look, and
understanding the limitations ofdata.
Those are going to be big, bigskills.
And so for them to articulatethose, and I'm kind of hoping,
the arts and humanities reallydo see this as a skill and not
(35:21):
shy away because it is, computerbased.
I think, it's a way that we'regoing, so they need to, kind of
play the game as well, right?
Nigel Rawlins (35:28):
Well, that was my big worry, that look, I mean,
I've been in business now 25years, but I find a lot of
writing about business boring asanything.
and I'd much rather, read aboutliterature or philosophy or a
whole range of other topics thatI love.
and, you know, Universities arebeing pushed to, focus on STEM
(35:49):
and business, whereas thehumanities, if they connected
with tech, that might be thebest way to go, but we're not
getting that because I thinkyou'll find the politicians,
especially in election year,just lost the plot.
I'm very angry with politiciansat the moment too.
Emma Williams (36:04):
Yeah, I think that's probably echoed around
the world, to be honest, there,Nigel.
But I'm kind of hoping,definitely, because Third Child
wants to go and do Classics.
Nigel Rawlins (36:13):
Okay,
Emma Williams (36:13):
So the other two did sciences, and one's a
chemist, one's a physics mathsyperson, and then we've, we've
spawned a Classicist somewherealong the line.
Nigel Rawlins (36:25):
So how do people afford you?
I mean, do they get grants tocome and see you?
Do the universities say, Hey,look, we need you to come and
work with all these people?
What happens?
Emma Williams (36:33):
One of the reasons where my original sort
of way into this world came fromwas that back in 2002 there was
a report by Sir Gareth Robertsin the UK that said we need
these bright sparky people inall walks of life.
But what they're perhaps lackingare some of the, refinement of
(36:57):
their skills so that they'reapplicable to moving on in
academia or moving on out.
So there is an awareness of, asort of a skills gap or at least
the translation of the skillsthey've got into the real world.
So with that came some funding.
for universities to provide,initially, it was for PhD
(37:17):
students and now it's beenrolled out into postdocs as
well.
So that next bracket and thathas been slowly adopted.
Universities move very slowly.
It's partly why I'm in businessand not in a university anymore
and slowly been adopted topretty much PhD students and
postdocs can expect 10 daystraining a year, which is funded
(37:42):
by the university.
Now, training is very broad, sogoing to a conference could
count as training.
So universities buy me in towork with their researchers,
and, that might be in a largegroup, like 20 or so, or it
might be working, one to one.
(38:03):
Different universities vary asto how many researchers they
have.
So they can come via that routeor they can come individually.
And I think that pricing point,is one that is interesting
because people who really valuethat next step and value getting
it right, are probably willingto invest.
(38:25):
I'm not in the business ofcharging thousands and thousands
of pounds a day, Nigel, so Iwould say that I am affordable
for people who want toprioritise that.
Nigel Rawlins (38:37):
I think, people have got to realize that, if you
really need to, and it'sdifficult because there are so
many people out there, sellingcourses.
I've done some expensivecourses, which were absolutely
rubbish compared to the cheapercourses.
And it's really annoying.
So it's very difficult for them,but as a business person, you do
have to charge for your time.
Otherwise you can't survivethere.
(38:57):
I mean, if I wasn't lookingafter clients websites, I
couldn't afford to do thispodcast because I have to do
everything on it, so it actuallysubsidizes this project, or my
business sponsors this project,but you've also got some online
training and that's probably abit more affordable too, isn't
it?
Can you tell me something aboutthat?
Emma Williams (39:16):
So I've got a suite of online courses, which
means more than two.
Nigel Rawlins (39:19):
Mm
Emma Williams (39:20):
And the way that I try and think about it is that
I've got a ladder of offerings.
The books are sort of entrylevel, less than ten pounds, and
so, you know, kind of that's theentry.
And then I have courses, thatlook at getting a fellowship,
using LinkedIn effectively.
(39:41):
again, LinkedIn is seen as thisbusinessy thing, as opposed to
something that is manifestlyuseful if you're trying to find
a job.
One of my favorites is calledI'm a Postdoc, Get Me Out of
Here, still might have taken alittle bit off, a teleprogram
there, looking at moving on,successfully.
(40:01):
And then I have one based on thebusiness model canvas.
a tool that every entrepreneurshould be really familiar with.
It's such a fantastic tool, butI've taken that and turned it
into the researcher canvas.
So in the same way that abusiness model canvas looks at
everything to do with thebusiness, and you can have a
play, you get your post it notesout and you cover them
(40:23):
everywhere and you look atdifferent ways of running your
business.
The researcher canvas should beable to map out a research
project.
So, it'd be quite useful ifyou're in your PhD, but also
thinking about, if you'rethinking about applying for a
fellowship, that you have tocome up with your own project.
So, again, it can help you sortof scan over everything that you
(40:47):
need.
So, those are my four andthey're priced, a bit more than
the book.
They're very even if I say somyself.
and then we can go into sort ofindividual coaching.
So there is that ladder of,opportunity for people.
An hour with me by yourself.
we can do marvellous things.
So I, one of my pet things is Ilove getting into someone's CV
(41:10):
and really making it shine,
Nigel Rawlins (41:12):
So that's accelerating them from, you
know, if they've done yourcourses, they've got at least a
basis that you can discuss withthem, and even a couple of hours
sessions, one hour at a time isprobably sufficient, but yes,
that's going to really give themthe impetus that they require
and give them some homework togo and do.
So, what you're telling me isyou've written a book, you've
(41:33):
been in business, you've gotyour courses, which we call
passive income.
And I've been trying to pointout to people that this is what
a lot of women in business areable to do create their courses
and sell those, run theirbusiness.
And it's quite amazing.
So that's a wonderful thing.
Now, the last thing, becausewe're coming towards the end
(41:53):
here You're interested inarchery.
Can you tell me something aboutwhy are you interested in
archery?
Emma Williams (41:58):
How old was he?
Eleven.
So it was probably six, sevenyears ago now.
he was desperate to do archery.
So he's a bit of a renaissanceman, that kid, he played the
harp, he loves chess, he wantsto do classics, and archery kind
of fitted in.
Yeah, I don't know, we must havebeen to one of these
reenactments and he'd seenlongbows and various other
(42:19):
things.
So he was desperate to do it,but he was 11, so as to have a
parent with you, and I thought,well, I could sit on the side
and watch him and get bored forthe entire day, or you could
join in.
So I did it, and I absolutelyloved it.
It was one of those I've neverbeen sporty Nigel, at all.
I was always the last person tobe picked for netball, which I
(42:41):
hated.
I did quite like hockey, thatwas quite good fun, but there
was a little bit of fightinginvolved in that, largely, so it
was good.
But, I absolutely loved it.
It's a sport that just you andyour bow.
looking at a target or it might,you might be out in the forest
shooting, all sorts of differentways of doing the same thing,
(43:03):
but it's just you and your bow,very mindful.
I am very, very twitchy person.
I, you know, sitting, meditatingis my definition of hell.
But me and my bow, you have toconcentrate.
on shooting.
if your mind wanders off to yourto do list or what so and so
said or whatever, that's it,your shot's gone.
(43:25):
So you have to concentrate.
but then once you've steppedback from the line and you've
shot your arrows, you've thengot a community of archers to
have a chat to.
So we joined, the marvelousNether Hall Archers, in
Cambridge.
Really friendly club.
I was chair for, a couple ofyears, handed that duty over,
(43:45):
and I now help beginners myself,so I'm a beginners course.
And I shoot recurve, which isthe one that you would see on
the Olympics.
But I have just made my ownlongbow.
So, I went to a girls school.
It wasn't a private girlsschool, it was just a state
girls school.
We did cookery and sewing, soI'd never done any woodwork.
(44:07):
But I took myself off with theyoungest to make a longbow.
Absolutely love the process andhave now been shooting that.
So yeah, I'm going back in time,back to, medieval longbow.
And it's a beautiful thing toshoot something that you've made
yourself as well.
So yeah, I'm a big enthusiast ofit.
It's one of those sports that,you know, we can take all sorts
(44:30):
of people, even blind people canshoot, which is an interesting
one.
So yeah, I love it.
Nigel Rawlins (44:37):
That sounds fantastic.
Well done.
We could talk about your book?
Emma Williams (44:41):
Emma, at this point you need to point out
you've written three books.
Nigel Rawlins (44:45):
Have you?
Emma Williams (44:45):
So I've worked with, on my last couple of
books, the brilliant DebbieJenkins, who's a book coach
doesn't do her justice.
She's a bit of a book bully, butshe has a process that gets you
to done with your books.
So my first book I wrote withtwo other esteemed colleagues,
and that's called What EveryPostdoc Needs to Know.
(45:06):
Kind of does what it says on thetin on that one.
And we're just going through thethroes of the second edition,
which should be out later onthis year.
And so that got me into writing.
I chose physics because itdidn't involve writing.
And I think this is somethingthat our careers evolve.
and we can step into, ourstrengths that we discover along
(45:28):
the way.
I'd always thought, oh, I can'twrite because I'm good at
numbers.
And actually that's a nonsense.
but I think it's taken me awhile to become that sort of
wise women of the tribe typething.
Perhaps that's because when Itipped over 50 that happened, I
don't know.
But I think we're more aware ofwhat we want to do and we're
(45:48):
more aware of, our skills, Ithink, as we grow older.
I think there is also a littlebit of, I also don't care what
other people think, thrown intothat mix.
So on the back of that firstbook, I then took one of my
programs that I run foruniversity, the UNIQUE program,
which is aimed at womenresearchers, and turned it into
(46:09):
a book so that I could reachmore people.
And so that one was publishedlast year.
And then this year, I'm on aroll, I published Leaving
Academia, where I talk aboutditching that, that comfort
blanket and moving on.
And the interesting thing aboutthat book was that I was very
much writing it for my audience,but then people who've read it
(46:32):
have said, these are some greatcareer lessons.
So I talk about the threads inthat book.
I talk about the way that ourcareers evolve and give us those
more opportunities.
I have very many moreopportunities than I did as a 21
year old graduate.
Probably have a bit less energy,but I know what I want to do.
(46:52):
and then I'm trying to look foropportunities to do that rather
than, going, Oh, well, I'll dothis job.
So I think there is a certainliberation that comes with,
having those skills andexperiences and having enough
skills and experiences that wecan make those deliberate
choices.
I mean you said that you'veretired.
Doesn't look like it from hereat Nigel to be
Nigel Rawlins (47:13):
honest.
No.
I think my wife's really angrywith me because I spend so much
time working, but I'm still sortof running a business.
You could say, well, I still runa company.
plus this podcast, which yoursis going to be the 50th.
Emma Williams (47:26):
Exciting.
Love a round number
Nigel Rawlins (47:28):
Emma, I'll put all your books in the show notes
and I'll put links to yourcourses and I'll put links to
you in LinkedIn.
Is there any other way you'dlike people to contact you?
People can work with you fromall over the world, can't they?
Emma Williams (47:40):
Yep, the joys of the interwebs.
Yep, I can happily work withpeople all over and have done
actually.
Sometimes I've been lucky enoughto go face to face overseas.
I've worked in, in Singapore andplaces, but yeah, the joys of
the internet, I think, andthat's another sort of
liberating factor in our careersis that, we can, we can be
(48:00):
anywhere, we can work anywhere.
You know, if I told my 21 yearold self we could do this, I
think I would have been makingit up back when the internet was
new, but yeah, brilliant.
probably if you want to know abit more about me, my LinkedIn
is the best, place, which isEmma Williams Training.
There are lots of EmmaWilliamses.
Always have an original name.
(48:21):
That would be my, thing to tellmy younger self.
Go back and rename myself.
Nigel Rawlins (48:26):
My last guest was Kate Toon, T O O N.
So there you go.
Nobody else's name.
And she's English.
So that's a name that you'dnever forget.
All right, well, thank you verymuch, Emma, for joining me on
the podcast.
Emma Williams (48:40):
It's been great fun.
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