Natasha Ginnivan: Reshaping Perceptions of Aging and Longevity

Episode Transcript
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Nigel Rawlins (00:05):
In this episode, we explore how cultural
attitudes shape our perceptionsof aging with Natasha Ginnivan
an Australian researcherspecializing in this field.
Discover practical insights onlongevity, combating ageism,
healthy aging, and redefiningretirement for continuous
growth.
Natasha also shares herinitiative.

(00:26):
Edgy Elders, which promotespositive aging through
conversation and stylishproducts.
Welcome Natasha to theWisepreneurs podcast.
Could you tell us somethingabout yourself and where you're
from?

Natasha Ginnivan (00:38):
Oh great, Nigel.
Good to be here.
So I'm Natasha Ginnivan.
I'm a researcher.
I live and work between the BlueMountains and Sydney.
And I research aging andattitudes to aging.

The first thing I notice about aging is it's spelt
differently in different partsof the world.
So which one do we use inAustralia?

I use the spelling with E because that's
what we've learned and grown upwith, but occasionally I will
use E.
without the E, A G I N G becauseon LinkedIn posts or social
media posts, a lot of people areused to using the other spelling
as well.

Yeah, that worries me too because often
when we write things or writearticles or put things into
social media or somewherethey'll often search using a
search term.
So I don't know how the twospellings will work.
So tell me something aboutaging.
You've been studying it now.
So what made you want to studyaging and tell us something more

(01:35):
about that?

Thanks for that question.
I'll try and give the executivesummary.
I used to be in my first careera fashion designer.
I used to work in productdevelopment when I first came
out of high school.
Yeah, I did like a TAFE courseand then I worked for a decade
in product development in thesort of volume side of things.
And then as I approached mythirties or early thirties, I

(01:59):
was needing something else.
I think we go throughtransitions and changes, we get
older and find meaning indifferent things.
So I went back and studiedpsychology at UNSW and I was a,
mature student in my thirties,comparatively to everybody else.
But I came across one of thefirst projects I did was on
implicit attitudes to aging andcultural attitudes to aging and

(02:23):
learnt about stereotypes andthings like that.
And so that sparked an interestthen.
And then I just went on to do anhonors year and was fortunate to
be able to study a PhD inpsychology and Aging at School
of Population Health in at ANU,the Research School of
Population Health.
But I was also funded by, at thetime, there was a Centre of

(02:47):
Excellence in Population AgeingResearch who was interested in
all different kinds ofdimensions around ageing or, the
sort of economic impacts, thesocial impacts health impacts.
And so I fit into the culturalattitudes or attitudes to aging
that really impact the way weview aging.

(03:07):
And quite often our views ofaging are harbored below the
level of conscious awareness.
So a lot of the stereotypes andattitudes to aging are very
automatic and we probably don'thave an accurate view of aging
because of that, because we tendto lump, into categories of

(03:29):
young or old rather than thissort of lifelong process of
transition and change that'svery individual and we become
very different from one anotherand diverse as we get older, but
we're fighting a stereotype thatsays we're all the same.
You know what I mean?
But anyway, that's a long,that's a long answer, but that's
how it sparked my interest fromthat very first topic.

(03:50):
And then I just kept studying itand then I guess in some ways
tried to incorporate my own sortof desire to have meaning and
purpose and things like that.
Yeah.

One of the problems I have with aging is
What is old age?
When is somebody old?

Yeah.
Look, that, that's a questionthat, um, it comes with
different dimensions.
I, look, I think from a, I wouldsay policy perspective, we
somehow think that 65 is theretirement senior's age because
that's attached to policy andthings like that.
But as we are living muchlonger, there's longevity, we're

(04:30):
living up to our eighties andnineties now.
And so we, 60 is young or 65 isyoung, but having said that, I,
again, I don't really feelcomfortable just looking at age
from those binary, that binaryof young versus old.
I think as a society, we'restill hung up on that.
Like our attitudes have not keptpace with this longevity that

(04:52):
we've been blessed with.
And I think, transitions likelife across the life course.
And if we're lucky enough tohave that long life, it's going
to be full of four or five orsix or more major transitions.
And so that the old sort ofmodel that a lot of people in
this space talk about and learnand retire.
It just doesn't really fitanymore.

(05:14):
And I think our institutions,our attitudes struggling to keep
up with this longevity that wehave.

That makes me think about the books, the 100
year life that Lynda Gretton andAndrew Scott wrote saying that
the traditional model is thethree stage life.
You go to school, you go to workand you retire, and then you
spend a lot of time.
And and I think the audience tothe Wisepreneurs podcast is
probably in, in the part wherethey're probably post work, but

(05:41):
they're starting other careersor continuing their career to
work in other areas too.
But there's a whole lot ofthings involved in that.
And was one of the reasons Iwant to talk to you about is how
we actually age.
I remember talking to a chap acouple of years ago I've got the
seniors card because I'm over60, and I was saying to him,
isn't the seniors card good?

(06:02):
And he looked at me and he said,when can you get one?
And I said, when you're 60.
And he said, oh, I've got a fewyears.
I thought the guy was about 80.
He looked so old.
And that's the problem.
Some people can look old at 40.
And that's the thing we're upagainst.
I just started Krav Maga thisyear, which I really love.
I exercise a couple of hours aday.

(06:22):
I walk as much as I can, andthere are people like me out
there who are still reading,working in their late sixties,
seventies.
And then there's others who,aren't.

Sure.
The thing is also is I thinkpart of our attitudes to aging
are pinned to some degree toappearances because we're
socialized that way.
Print, whether it's magazines,whether it's online, whether
it's movies, we very much attachthe idea of, young and old to
appearance.
And, there's something around,bit of opportunity to self

(06:56):
reflect and say It doesn'tmatter if whether we look old or
younger and I think we're notreally up to that stage yet.
I think we still very muchattach appearance to whether we
look young or look old and we'restill fighting against that.
And that probably whether welook or feel or are old frail or

(07:19):
not perhaps, shouldn't reallydefine whether we can still
contribute to life, have purposehave meaning, have
relationships, all that kind ofstuff.

Yeah, that's one of the issues when you look at
somebody, and they look old,you're saying that for some
reason, in our culture we're notfeeling that they're up to
scratch or as capable as sayyounger people.
But the problem I find with thatis some younger people don't
have the wisdom that the olderhave or nor do they have the

(07:53):
patience.

Yeah.
Look, that's a really goodpoint.
And in my sort of, research andlooking at age stereotypes to
some degree it cuts both ways.
Sometimes we stereotype youngerpeople.
But also, when we're young, it'simpossible to be, wise from day
dot, isn't it?
So we learn, we learn fromexperiences and become wise by

(08:14):
those cumulative experiences andknowledge.
But there's a really greatquote, I think it's Oscar Wilde
who says, wisdom comes with age,but sometimes it comes alone.
So it doesn't mean that becauseyou are older or that you're
going to be wise necessarily.
And then again, there are somepeople who have wisdom beyond

(08:35):
the years as well.
But in general, I think you'reright.
I think that, obviously, ifyou're blessed enough to have a
longer life, those cumulativeexperiences of whether it's
tragedy, trauma, heartache, allthose things tend to give
somebody more of a sense of whatlife is about and gives you

(08:56):
wisdom.

Let's have a talk about healthy aging.
Is this an issue that you'reinvolved with?

My studies haven't been as directly
involved with the health side ofit.
I do have colleagues who look atbrain health and dementia and,
even like physio and, what arethe kind of predictors of,
what's going on with of healthnot drinking too much and not
having too much sugar andgetting good sleep, don't smoke,

(09:24):
all those sorts of things.
I've been in aging researchenough to know what predictors
are of good or poor health orlongevity.
Interestingly, one of the maindrivers of longevity is social
connection, actually, above allthe other health tick box
things.
But yeah, so it's, it, I'mindirectly involved in healthy

(09:45):
aging, but predominantly myfocus is on attitudes, which
does impact your expectation ofaging actually.

Maybe we should talk about cognitive health
then.
Is that an area that's ofinterest to you as well?

Yeah, it's definitely of interest to me.
I'm not an expert in dementia,but I know a little bit about
factors, high risk factors fordementia.

Yeah, because that's the biggest fear as we
age.
Like I'm 68 and I'm thinking I'dhate to get dementia because it
would just stop everything I'menjoying doing.
So one of the things I aminterested in through healthy
aging and longevity and stufflike that is, is being able to
continue to work professionallyand therefore keep my cognitive
ability, be able to thinkclearheaded..

(10:27):
And you mentioned alcoholbefore.
I've virtually given up alcoholbecause that really creates a
brain fog the next day.
And I'll be honest, I got a bitbored with my business several
years ago.
So I took a part time job justto get some time out.
And I worked in a liquor store.
And it horrified me, the amountof alcohol that people bought.

(10:48):
And you'd see the same peopleevery day.
And so I'm just wondering, Iknow that's an issue.
I finished that a couple ofyears ago and so I'm full time
doing what I'm back to doing,but that cognitive health is
just so important.
And so what can you tell usabout that?

As I mentioned, I'm not entirely an
expert, but the things I do knowabout the relationship with
alcohol and brain health is thatapparently you can have a very
small amount of wine, I think,from like the Mediterranean diet
type thing that's the best diet.
And I think a little wine isokay.

(11:24):
But beyond that the copiousamount of alcohol, I think as a
nation that we have, probablydoesn't help our risk factors
for good brain health.
I think that alcohol and thenjust sugar in our diets and salt
are probably very big no nos Iwould say for trying to maintain
the brain health as we get,older.

So to really age well, I guess what we've got to
do is have a look at what we'redoing to ourselves.

Yeah, look, there's that, but on the other
hand, I would just also saythat, sometimes, yeah, addiction
to something like alcoholthere's an underlying issue to
that as well.
So we often, we need to look atlike the stress side of our life
as well and what's causing us asa country to be so inebriated
and want to have to drink allthe time.

(12:15):
So that would be what'sunderneath the behaviors.

As we're living longer, it's pretty obvious that
if you started drinking as ayoung person and it's become a
habit, suddenly, 50 years later,or even 20 or 30 years later,
you've been drinking for 20 or30 years.
It must be affecting them and Iguess part of our cultural
understanding.
It, it must be hard.
So what are some of theattitudes to aging that you're

(12:40):
studying?

I would say my initial kind of, thesis and
research that I did was lookingat different cultural attitudes.
For example I contrastedAustralia with the Philippines
and did some focus groups andsurveys.
I chose the Philippines becauseit's a collectivist culture and
I also have Filipino heritagemyself.

(13:02):
And I grew up with, on mymother's side, but at least far
more intergenerationalconnection.
With aunties and a big family.
And it's interesting thatthere's there is this sort of
sense of elder respect if youlike, but it's hard to describe.
It's not in the way that like wethink, just because you're
older, you automatically getrespect.

(13:23):
It's more about in such a closecollectivist culture where
you're much more tiedintergenerationally, and
involved with each other, it's amechanism for keeping group
harmony and reciprocity andthings like that.
And it's hard to describeexactly in our Western, sense
of, how we should be betweengenerations.

(13:44):
But on the other hand, in, sortof Western cultures, we tend to
be quite age segregated both inour kind of societies, families
and things.
We have extended family, but wedon't have as much connection
with older people through ourlife course.
And so I wanted to understand ifyou grew up with more people
older than you around that youhad a quality relationship with,

(14:08):
would this impact your attitudeto not only your own aging, but
aging in general?
And I found with my researchboth qualitatively in focus
groups and quantitatively viasurveys using these validated
scales about culture andattitudes that was validated by
the World Health Organizationthat there were significant

(14:31):
differences that if you did growup with those more sort of
collectivist culture,intergenerational connection and
had, more positive, attitudes orviews you did in general have
better attitudes to aging.
But in my survey, it wasn't justto say that it was only
Filipinos because they'recollectivists that had better

(14:52):
attitudes.
I also found that theAustralians who are higher on
that score of collectivism ortheir attitudes were more
collectivist, like in theirapproach to generations, had
better attitudes.
And there is other researchaside from mine that shows that
if you have better qualityrelationships with older people
in your life, then of courseit's going to impact the way you

(15:14):
view yourself as you get olderor, how you view other older
people in general.

I think that's a very interesting point and a
very important one too, becauseI know that I came from England
as a young child with myparents.
When I had my children, myparents moved up to Queensland,
up where it's lovely and warm,and we rarely saw them.
So we had to make an effort toget up there, and it's a bit
hard when you've got three kidsto go to Queensland.

(15:42):
So they separated themselves,but I've noticed that my
children, Got three grown upchildren.
One lives in Canada, one livesin Melbourne, one lives locally,
but he's about to take offaround Australia.
So I will rarely get to seethem.
I can talk to them, it seems tobe the thing, I don't know if
it's in the West or inAustralia, where we just go our

(16:05):
own way and we're often on ourown and I can understand when
somebody's older, especially mentend to die younger than women.
If that's the case, and you're awoman and you're older, you're
probably living on your own.
And unless you're lucky, you'vegot friends around you.
We are very different inAustralia, aren't we?

Yeah.
And I think, it's not one'sbetter than the other.
It's just, that's the nature ofthe way they're socially
organized.
That's just how it's worked out.
But I think that, perhapsattitudes to aging have become
more negative as we'veironically gained more
longevity.
Our attitudes to aging havebecome more negative.
Back before pre industrial ageor whatever we tended to still

(16:47):
be a little bit more in thesefamily groups, but then, as the
industrial age grew andtechnology came, you had to go
where the work is.
So you just brought your kidsalong and, you can't have the
whole clan.
And and then of course the,going back through history the
printing press and books andthings, and we don't really rely
so much on the wisdom of eldersor storytelling and things like

(17:09):
that as much as we did.
And and and then I think nowwe've gained a lot.
Look, it's not to say that thesethings are bad, they're good.
On the one hand, they havestrengths, but on, that saying
like the greatest strength canbe the greatest weakness as
well.
I think also now we're exposedto these age stereotypes that
infiltrate like our lives andeven, storybooks and cartoons

(17:33):
and things like that.
Children as young as four havealready formed age stereotypes
before they've even gone toschool.

It's funny, my my wife has a four year old
grandchild who, is quite anindependent little one.
Was reading since she was two,constantly wants to come and
stay with us.
On her own, without her parents.
And she does.
She's quite interesting in thatregard.
She's got some sort ofconnection there.
Alright, what about work?
People working who are in their60s and maybe 70s is it possible

(18:03):
for them to still work or isageism working against them?

I would say it is possible and I would also say
that yes, ageism is workingagainst even over 50.
My colleagues and I a few yearsago did a scoping review to see
what types of evaluations andprograms are in place to reduce
this level of age discriminationthat happens to people in their

(18:29):
50s and 60s.
So on 70s and older.
And what we found afterreviewing both literature,
academic literature and reportsand grey literature and things
like that, that trying to findprograms that have been
seriously trying to evaluate howto reduce this issue because
obviously the last decade we'vehad a lot more in the equity,

(18:50):
diversity, inclusion space, butnot for aging really.
That's still lagging.
And what we found from thisscoping review was about 17
studies that really looked at itin, in on how to, measure and
chat, track and change becauseyou can't change something that
you don't track.
And there's only 17 studiesacross the last 30 years.

(19:13):
So given the prevalence of theissue, we only have 17 studies,
many of them using collegeparticipants, which isn't really
serious.
It's well, it is serious, that'sa good study, but you don't have
it in the workplace.
You don't have people in theworkplace trying to actively
work on how to perhaps do jobsharing or make sure that, age
diversity is included withinyour EDI, things like that.

(19:35):
So it is a big barrier.
And it's something that I thinkas a culture, we really need to
take a look at and not do it ina way that's subsidizing
companies that decide thatthey'll, begrudgingly take on
someone in their fifties andsixties.
Just be inclusive and understandthat people who are older have a

(19:55):
lot of experience to offer.
And a lot of, as you said,wisdom, they might need some
flexibility, but there's notsomething that like you can't
offer as a business.

I noticed if I go to the local supermarket,
there's often people workingthere who are obviously in their
60s.
Sometimes they're a bit older,but, most supermarket jobs are
part time.
And so that's obviously flexiblefor them, but the supermarkets
are, and even at Bunnings, a bighardware chain in Australia
hires older people as well.

(20:27):
And if you can get hold of one,cause they're all busy they know
what they're talking about.

Yeah.
I love it.
I love that Bunnings actually,they actually have a dedicated
sort of quotient for peoplehiring people, in their 50s,
60s, 70s.
And I believe they have, peopleworking there even into their
80s.
And a while ago someone in their90s working there, Bunnings.
So they're an exemplar, I think.

I think we'll talk about that in a moment too.
All right.
One of the things, obviously theWisepreneurs podcast is about
Independent professionals.
It's people who have aprofessional qualification.
They want to work for themselvesand they can be any age.
For example one of the ladies Ispoke to Hazel Edwards recently
78 an author said she's cut herworking hours down from 60 to 35

(21:14):
hours a week.
She's written 200 books andshe's quite involved in her work
and her writing andpresentations.
She's written another book thatshe's about to publish shortly.
So we have professionals outthere who have looked after
themselves and have got somegood qualifications but don't
really want to retire, eventhough they might have retired

(21:35):
from the workforce.
What do you know about that sortof cohort?

Yeah.
There are lots of people who,you know, whether they're doing
paid work or unpaid work wantingto bestow their knowledge also
learn new things that, thatdoesn't automatically stop in
our, sixties or seventies orwhat have you.
In fact I would say that,retirement, the idea of
retirement perhaps needs areframe.

(22:01):
Not to say that like those whowant to, finish that sort of
nine to five really hard, typeof work can't.
But I would say that we needmore institutions, whether it's
TAFE or university, that kind ofallows people to reskill in a
vocational way, perhaps in thattransition from, the nine to

(22:23):
five type work to, to a vocationor something, a new skill that
they've always, wanted to learn.
I knew someone in the fashionindustry who was tired of, doing
the nine to five work, or latertype role and went and did a
florist course and then, didthat and then had their own
business in the 60s kind ofthing.

(22:44):
My, my cousin actually is areally great example.
She actually she lives in thePhilippines and worked as a
lawyer for the Asian DevelopmentBank for a very long time.
And in the last probably fiveyears of her work, she really
loved dog training and, dogbehavior and helping people
train their pets.
And so the last five years ofher kind of career as a lawyer

(23:07):
at the ADB, she after work,she'd get changed into her
chinos and her polo and she'd goand start doing this dog
training.
And then, basically on the lastday of her work after 25 years,
she just, got into her gear andshe just stepped straight into
this other role that shetransitioned to.
And I'm not saying like it's soeasy, but I think that people

(23:29):
can do it, but I think thatthey're not set up, we're not
set up well in society to helpsupport that transition.
And I think that The book TheHundred Year Life that you
mentioned before talks about theneed for institutions to really
start providing this type ofsupport.
And that type of support startswith the mentality and a
reframing it and reframingtransitions from, midlife into

(23:52):
later life.

I think that's really important because I
purchase online courses all thetime.
I don't always get time to dothem, but there are ways that
you can learn and they don'thave to be expensive either.
Some of the online courses arefairly cheap, but I guess you'd
have to have access to internetand stuff like that.
And in local communities, areyou finding that there is some

(24:14):
sort of retraining programs outthere that would help people,
say, transition from work andmaybe to find something else
they could do, even if it wasvoluntary?

I have to say, I don't think I've seen a lot of
that because I'd probably belike onto who's doing it and
what are the outcomes.
And I know that there's the U3A,the University of Third Age, for
example.
I'm not entirely sure if that'ssets up for training for new
skills or anything.

(24:44):
Probably does.
I haven't had as muchinvolvement.
But I know that, people who arequote unquote retired and want
to continue to learn can accessthe University of the Third Age.
I don't think that ourmainstream institutions perhaps
are doing as much aroundlifelong learning as they could.
I know that in the U.

(25:04):
S.
although, it's quite a, an eliteuniversity, Stanford, but
they've got a lot of stuff onlongevity and just a
distinguished career institutewhere I believe younger and
older people are paired to learnfrom one another and mentor one
another.
And I think that these sorts ofthings, multi generational

(25:26):
learning and transitioning andall that kind of stuff really
needs to be brought in as amainstream thing into our
universities.
I know that the University ofQueensland, for example, is part
of the age friendly globalnetwork of universities in the
Southern Hemisphere and the onlyone in Australia.
And they're actually partneringwith myself and some colleagues.

(25:48):
a study that we're doing on, on,on actually trying to improve
the attitudes towards towardsolder workers.
So I think the answer is thatyes, people are doing it
individually.
And I think that's gonna help,help with the shift.
In the mindset, because they'reshowing people that it can be
done, but it would be great ifas a society, we just got on

(26:09):
board and said, you know what,we're living much longer now.
We've got to do away with theseage stereotypes that it's all
about decline.
It's not to say that aging isn'tabout decline.
We know it is eventually wedecline and die, but it's
happening much later now.
So we've got a good portion ofour that we are really
squandering because of poorattitude.

Yeah, I think that's, that is my biggest
concern because I think whenyou're younger you think you're
bulletproof and it takes a whileto start finding, Oh, I don't
know, is it women who arefinding themselves feeling the
problem more because they startto look older and then they're
starting to spend money onproducts to try and stay younger
and men don't really care.

(26:50):
Is that, that an issue?

That's a whole other podcast about the way that
sort of, I would almost say thelie that women are sold that
they have to look young all thetime.

I love working with women because they're so
smart and they actually work.
And some of them, I do work withsome men but most of the women
they communicate really well,they get stuck into the work and
things happen, which is reallyfantastic.
That's why I love working withthem.
And and obviously my cohort thatmost of the women I'm working
with now are in their 60s.

(27:21):
And I fit in where I fit in.
It seems to, I've become part oftheir team, I suppose you could
say.
Yeah, but it does concern methat women are feeling it more,
I think, than men.
And I don't know if that'sAustralian men, they don't
really care.

Look, I don't think it's Australian men.
I think I think overall I don'twant to just say Western culture
because, beauty is a universalthing.
But I think in Western culture,I'm going to say that we do,
it's getting a little better,but there is this sort of double
whammy for women, this sort of atwin prejudice of ageism and
sexism, right?

(27:56):
That kind of creates double thebarrier, I would say for women.
And then, and it's not just mypersonal opinion, there's
research that supports that.
There's a lack of mediarepresentation for women of the
age of 40, as I said, it'sgetting a little better but
traditionally we still have thisthis view that women need to
look 25 their whole lives.
And so there's a billiontrillion, I don't know how many

(28:20):
dollar business, but of womentrying to meet that expectation,
unfortunately.

I think it is unfortunate because the women I
work with are so smart.
And they're in their 60s and itwould be horrible if they were
being ignored and not listenedto.
I recently spoke with a lady inher 70s, very highly qualified
professional.
And she was doing a consultingprogram and she saw something
wrong and she said, look,there's something wrong here and

(28:49):
they didn't want to know.
Because they had an ulteriormotive which is really sad.
And that's the difficulty thatthey have, you can be in your
seventies, have the expertisebut be ignored because they
don't necessarily agree withyou.
And yet, the person could have40 years of solid experience at
a very high executive level.

Look, I think there's a lot of things, there's
a lot of dynamics going on, but,stereotypes is a predominant
thing.
Ageism and sexism, combined isan unfortunate negative force
that women have to deal with.
But also, as we get older andthis is, I think, quoting Gloria
Steinem is a very prominentfeminist, but as we get older,

(29:33):
whether you're male or female,but females in particular, we
are more vocal, we just say itlike it is.
And there's this sort of likeexpectation that women shouldn't
be speaking their mind forwhatever strange reason.
So when they do, it's it's metwith like dismissal and,
diminishing and whatever otherthings.
I've been listening to The WiserThan Me Podcast.

(29:56):
Have you listened to the wiserthan me podcast with Julia
Louise-Dreyfus?
It's a really good one actually.
It's just come out a couple ofyears ago or maybe it was last
year when I came out.
Yeah.
And she interviews all thesesort of older women and Gloria
Steinem was one of them.

Wow.
I don't think I'm going to getsome of those people on my
podcast.

You might, you never know.

My difficulty is finding I and anyone listening
who does know somebody who's intheir late sixties and seventies
and eighties who's still workingcould just contact me and I'd
love to interview them.
I have reached out and asked,but.
It's hard to find them, but it'salso hard for me to find
Australians to talk to.
I find it easier to talk topeople across the world, no
matter where they are, than tofind my Australians that I can

(30:37):
talk to.
So let's have a little talkabout aging and technology.
Is that an issue?

I, I.
I would say the attitudes aroundthat are an issue.
And I know people who haveworked in technology who are
being pushed out in their 40sand 50s because they're, again,
it's the stereotype that you'resome, young digital native as if
older people can't be digitalnatives or learn technology

(31:03):
either.
My, my partner's a techreviewer.
He writes about tech and he'sall over technology and he's in
his fifties and he knows howeverything works immediately.
There is this problem in thatindustry that we pair technology
with youth and that's ridiculousbecause technology has been

(31:23):
around, and advancing so much inthe last decade and that we're
all using it now.
I find it really a little bitannoying and insulting when they
say they're surprised thatpeople in their fifties and
sixties or seventies know how touse technology.
My dad's 80 and he has emailsand social media and uses laptop

(31:45):
and phone perfectly.
Sure.
Some older people don't liketechnology and, but they can
learn it if they want to.
It's not that they can't learntechnology.
Older people, I think there'sresearch that shows older people
can adopt technology.
Sometimes if it's new to them,it might take a bit longer, but
they can learn it.
They're not, it's not thatthey're not capable of learning
technology.
Sorry, that's my rant.

Oh, no, that's good.
One of the issues I have is thatwhen people do leave their work
and they want to work forthemselves they don't always
understand the technologybecause they've had IT support
in the business they've beenworking in.
They've had an awful lot ofsupport there, but when they go
to work for themselves, theydon't have that anymore.
There's a real gap.

I would say that might be the case, but I
would probably say that youngerpeople that don't have the IT
tech support might alsostruggle.

Yeah, I had some real issues trying to connect up
multiple screens to my Mac.
I use a MacBook Pro and now I'vegot three screens behind me plus
the MacBook Pro, but trying toget them all to work together,
it just takes ages to find itout.
Whereas it would have been niceif there was somebody, cause I
live in a country town out ofGeelong, it would have been nice

(32:54):
to have somebody local to comearound and, Oh, you need this,
and this.
I guess older people are notgoing to require what I require.
So another issue too, is, Ithink one of the things you
mentioned is'a builtenvironment'.
Is that an issue that you seeout there, the environment that
we live in?
It's not always suitable forolder people.

Yeah, look, I think that universal design is a
great thing, right?
If we approached public spaceswith the lens of universal
design such that whether you'reolder or maybe have a disability
could be able to access thatspace, then everybody can access
that space.

(33:33):
And, I think that there's somegood examples of that type of
approach.
But I think we don't really haveenough such that we could call
ourselves having age friendlycities and things like that, and
I think what that leads to isnot only obviously the concern
and the higher risks of falls orthings like that, then, but what

(33:54):
it leads to is social isolation,right?
People don't want to come to aplace where there's minimal
lighting, the footpaths aren't,maintained and, and the parking
is non existent or tooexpensive.
It's astounding that we've knownfor the last two decades that
we've got this thing calledpopulation aging, right?
Where we're all as a populationgetting older and yet we still

(34:17):
don't have this front of mindwhen we're building things and
facilities and stuff.
Like I said, there's someexamples, good examples of that,
but as a whole I think we couldbe, doing a lot better.

I agree.
I got rid of my car.
My wife still has her car.
I prefer to use the bus.
Now I am in a small countrytown, so the bus doesn't go too
often, but I can get toMelbourne.
I can take the bus to thestation, get the train to
Melbourne, and believe it ornot, it's about$4 during the
week, and I love that because Iget to read, whereas if I had to

(34:48):
drive I just get so boreddriving.
But I can understand as I getolder you just get a little bit
more frightened that, you mighthave some problems or something,
or somebody might not befriendly to you and things like
that.
So you can understand that, but,you're stuck with the public
transport and you hope that it'sgoing to be safe and you hope
that it's going to be clean.

(35:08):
And I guess that's the otherissue too is the stereotypes.
You're an old person.
And I know now that I'm startingto look a bit older and I'm I
work really hard on my health,but I just know that when I look
in the mirror, I'm not the sameas I was when I was 50.
One of the areas you work withis with prisoners and coming
back out into into the world.

(35:29):
So can you tell us somethingabout that?
What are some of the issues thatthey have?

Yeah, so some of the research that I've done
at UNSW was on the agingprisoner population.
Um, And obviously, when we talkabout built environment when
they're in prison it's a wholeother issue, but coming out it's
very hard for people who areolder and haven't been
integrated into society,particularly if they've been in

(35:55):
prison for 10 years.
And then, we talked about therate of technology and it's the
speed of technology and alsojust knowing the systems change
all the time, whether it's to dowith how to connect to
Centrelink and what's requiredand whether can do it online or
go to the office and thenpushing everything out into
digital now.
And then, just social isolationand and health concerns are big

(36:19):
problems for this marginalizedpopulation.
Yeah.

It must be pretty hard, I'd say.
And especially if you'reisolated from family.
I would think that would be verydifficult for them.
And what ages are they comingout?

That, that varies a lot.
From the research that I'vedone, there's actually quite a
not quite a few, but there's afew different kinds of
experiences for older prisoners.
Some have been in there for along time, others have had
difficult sort of lives.
And been in touch with thejustice system since they were
young and been cycling in andout of prison, or there's been

(36:54):
violence in their family, intheir life, and so somehow
they've ended up, being in, inprison, or there's people who
perhaps have committed crimeswhen they were younger, but
hasn't been found until later,and this type of thing.
But what we know is that thereis a premature form of aging
when you're in that sort ofgroup of marginalized

(37:15):
populations.

That must be pretty hard, I think.
Especially finding somewhere tolive and then, and being able to
earn some money.
It must be difficult.

Yeah.
Yeah.
It's very hard.
Particularly, prisoners who werereleased during the pandemic, it
was hard for the wholepopulation was shut down and
there was no networks there atall.
It was very difficult.
Yeah.

Now we're probably coming to the end of
the podcast, is there somethingelse that you would like to talk
about?
I was going to ask you aboutEdgy Elders, so tell me about
edgy elders.
What's that?

When I finished my postgraduate
studies, I talked about culturalattitudes and so on, there was
just so much that I felt weneeded to talk about and shift
and the Edgy Elders ended upbeing something that sort of
hangs off my blog, MobilizingWisdom, and I initially started
with the blog because I had somuch to say about different

(38:10):
things about aging that I juststarted putting them into blog
pieces and then startedinterviewing other people who
are talking about aging andtrying to essentially disrupt
age stereotypes.
But in that also the sort ofinner work, self reflection
component, that often comes withmaturity and as you get older.

(38:31):
And it's really wanting todisrupt attitudes, transform a
little bit, give people somesense of what positive aging
looks like.
And then Edgy Elders came alongbecause I always had the idea
that I wanted to put somethingout there in a tangible way that
would start conversations,whether it was just like a

(38:52):
cheeky bumper sticker or a tshirt or something.
And so because my backgroundinitially was fashion, I just
thought I'll just be easier toput together a little line
product.
And that's what I did.
And it hangs off my my blog,which you can read about stuff,
but you can also go onto thelittle shop or I do markets as

(39:14):
well because I like to haveconversations in person with
people about some of theattitudes, like just the
conversation I'm having withyou.
I sometimes have little snippetswith people at the markets.

That's great.
I had a look at that website.
The t shirts look fantastic, butI might buy one of those bags.
They look great too.
Some fabulous products.
Natasha, thanks for joining us.
How would you like people toconnect with you?
I will put all this in the shownotes where your blog is and
where Edgy Elders can be found.

(39:46):
But how else would you likepeople to connect with you?

Oh, look they can find me through my blog,
I've got like a little contactor, or Edgy Elders.
And also I just just to mentionthat I, I am giving listeners a
discount with the discount codethat I've given you, which I've
put edgy friends 24.
And that's for the next monththat they can get 10 percent off
any of the products.

(40:09):
And I might see you or atlisteners at some of the markets
Leura markets, Paddingtonmarkets that I sometimes do on
weekends.

Thank you for being on the Wisepreneurs
podcast.
It's been great talking to you.
And I look forward to talking toyou again.

Thank you, Nigel.
It's been a pleasure.

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Natasha Ginnivan: Reshaping Perceptions of Aging and Longevity

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