March 2, 2025 • 29 mins
Celebrating the Women of the Melbourne Fashion Festival.
Denni Francisco is the Founder and Creative Director of Ngali, a pioneering First Nations fashion brand that merges contemporary design with Indigenous artistry. As a proud Wiradjuri woman, she is dedicated to creating ethically made garments that celebrate the stories and talents of First Nations communities. Under her leadership, Ngali has gained national and international recognition, making history as the first First Nations brand to present a solo runway at Australian Fashion Week.
Australia is home to some remarkable women.
They’re raising foster families. Running cattle stations. Living inspirational lives. Yet, many of their tales of triumph are never profiled, never celebrated. So we’re changing that… every week.. through our Women Of Influence Podcast.
Women of Influence Podcast with Kate Meade for iHeart Radio
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Women of Influence podcast. I'm your host,
Kate Meete, and it is so great to be back
in your ears. I would like to acknowledge the traditional
owners of the land in which this podcast was recorded,
and I pay my respects to their elders past and present,
and the Aboriginal elders of other communities who may be
(00:20):
listening today. This is a special five part series in
partnership with the Melbourne Fashion Festival, celebrating the extraordinary women
of the Melbourne fashion industry. Australia is home to some
remarkable women. They're raising foster families, running cattle stations, living
inspirational lives. Yet many of their tales of triumph are
(00:43):
never profiled and never celebrated. So we're changing all that
through our Women of Influence podcast. For more information about
our Women of Influence the Melbourne Fashion Festival edition, please
check out our show notes and of course the Women
of Influence socials. And as always, if you have a
woman in your life that needs to be celebrated and
(01:05):
we all need to hear her story, please connect with us.
We would love to hear from you. Thank you so
much always for your support and I hope that you
smile as much as I did recording these episodes. These
episodes were recorded via zoom in Melbourne and you know
(01:27):
I love address.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Denny.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Oh it's great to be here, Kate, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I just need to start with one thing, and that
is the red Flare pants. Can you tell me about
those red flarepants?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Yes, the red flappants. It's become quite funny really, But
the background of that is that when we move to
the country to the city I was fourteen, it was
all very overwhelming and just you know, being in the city,
coming from a place where everybody knew you to nobody
knows you. And I remember seeing these red Flare pants
(02:13):
in this shopping album. Was totally mesmerized by them, and
I was actually asking my mother could I have these pants?
But you know, sort of as a single parent and
someone I remember her saying, you know, I can't always
give you what you want, And so there was some
suggestion about did that actually start my interest in fashion?
(02:34):
I'm not really sure, but it's a pretty vivid memory
that I have.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
And you know, for a mum to be honest with
you too, you know, okay, Denny. You know, like I'm
working it hard here just to get food on the table.
I can't just go. I imagine the red pants would
have been pretty extravagant.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yes, yes, I mean it was a bit silly in
a way, you know, when you're sort of like looking
at sort of everything that actually goes on around you,
and these are red flear pants. But I think they've
become a bit of a metaphor really.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So the move from country to the city would have
been jarring by itself. But to do it at that age.
What are your earliest memories of living in the country.
And it was New South Wales, wasn't it. It was a
Victoria Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah, it was in your South Wales? And I mean
growing up in the country was fantastic with all cousins
and you know, aunties and so on. And my family
worked on the land and so we had lots of
school holidays, all sleeping out in the shearing sheds and
things like that. So you know, all of that was
you know, great memories and you know, had us all
(03:45):
be pretty close as a family.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
So was it mum needing to do work or what
was it that was Okay, Denny, we're moving to the city.
This is what's happening.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah, you know, my parents separated and my mum had
family here in Melbourne and I could give her support,
and so that was the decision that she made to
come here. And one of my older brothers stayed with
my dad, and my younger brother when he was old enough,
he went back and lived with my dad as well,
but my sister and I stay with my mother in
(04:20):
the city.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
I've been going through your website, by the way, and
I don't get paid until next week, so I had
to really just hold off before I go silly. It's
interesting actually, because when I was going through your website
and looking at things that I could purchase, the use
of silk, you know, is so predominant in your work.
And it's interesting to me because when I was speaking
(04:45):
to Ralph, who is on episode one, she talked about
this feeling of the silk in her hands and how
she can sposh if it's real silk or it's not
real silk, and things like that. But I'm curious about
why it was silk for you. What was it about
this use that you were like, no, this is the
(05:05):
scarves are going to be silk. A lot of the
dresses I could see that we're in the silk or
a really beautiful clotton. What was it about the silk
for you?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I think it was, well, it is actually about the softness,
it's about the tactiles of nature of it. But importantly
it's about the movement and how people feel when they
have a silk garment on. So you know, I'm always
conscious about space and space around us and how we
can move with as much ease as possible through our
(05:37):
every day, So that's one part of it. But also
to the richness of silk. I felt was a really
good beginning for us to be able to translate the
artworks and put onto the silks, because it just looks amazing.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
And then the colors are vivid and so on.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
So I thought that it was a it's a fabulous
fabric to use. It doesn't mean that we don't do
cotton as well, but the silk is just something that's
just so beautifully tactile and just moves with the breeze
and moves with the movement of the person. Yeah, that's
as it conjures a beautiful feel of comfortability.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
I guess but even when you said it conjures this beautiful,
you know, I drew in a breath because it just
it feels like each piece is telling me a story.
But it was more than that. You know, I was
either taken to the ocean, which is a very special
place to me, or you know, I was a country
(06:38):
kid myself, so you know, back to the land there
was each piece is telling me a story. Can you
is that what I would be feeling? Can you tell
me more about that? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
So we have really two sort of sort of hero
collections if you want to sort of look at it
like that, and within those collections there are other collections.
But with the artworks we're being working on with Digitre
artist lends in Malay from the Kimberlee. You know, we
talk about Dreams of the Kimberley and that is actually
the artwork that is that encapsulates Lindsay's story and his
(07:13):
connection to country, his country and his family and they're
in those beautiful earthy tones. And then we also to
have the whispers of the eucalyptse and that's my photography
as I capture what we would call country with all
of the gum trees that actually is this throughout the
(07:34):
landscape because they all have in their own right, their
own story to tell. So there's lindsay story, and then
there's also to the story of the gum trees. And
as time passes and say, weather changes and so on,
gum trees just deliver this incredibly array of patterns and
(07:56):
colors and so on. And then with the First Nations
work that is so connected to country as well, but
that interpretation of that artwork that happens from that is
from the artists themselves. So I think that the combination
of those two concepts is actually really quite beautiful.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
And I think even when when looking at your pieces,
and you know, I'm only looking at it online, I
just I felt like, you know, to purchase a piece
from you is really to purchase something that you would
have for a lifetime. Is that part of you know,
the brand and what's important to you. You know, you
invest not just in a piece, but this will be
(08:37):
something that you know, potentially you can hand it down
to your daughter, your granddaughter. It's going to last.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, absolutely, And I think, you know, and I guess
that's that's what our ethof is is to actually, you know,
not be trends related where you start something and stop
it and then start something else and stop it. It's
actually that again, that free flowing process of how the
silhouettes and the and the garment prints or the scarf
(09:04):
prints actually flow, you know, from season to season, year
to year. So it's the there's design not to sort
of like look out of step with whatever it is
that's going on around, but to be in stepped and
to have their place no matter where people want to
wear them. Like I talk about, you know how sometimes
you know, people keep special things for special I.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Might just get them in their wardrobe, or it.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Might be the good crystal ware that you know, my
you know, my grandmother, not my indigenous grandmother or my
other grandmother might keep for special occasions. But it's like what,
you know, what don't you enjoy that now? So you know,
just bring up to slip on a soft silk dress
and go for coffee with friends on a weekend. Why
would we not do that? You know, if that's how
(09:49):
we feel within that garment. But in addition to that
is the story concept. And there's so much too around
conscious consumerism, but what is really nice is actually having
purchases that we invest in to have a meaning, you know,
to have a story behind them, so it's not just
(10:10):
a piece of fabric, you know, made into a garment.
It actually has a really beautiful story about it. It
has a connection. And I think that that's to your
point about when when we have pieces like that, they
have a sort of like special place for us and
that they you know, they have longevity.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, and I think, you know, they're the pieces that
I managed to have three pieces of my mother's in
the cupboard, and it's a similar thing. Actually, I just think,
you know, number one, I'm privileged you know that that
they are in there. And number two, you know they
were hers and she picked them for these occasions that
(10:52):
she had them for, and now I have them and
you know, not just the story of the piece, the
design of the one of the dress is that I'm
thinking about, but it's the story of what it was
purchased for and where she wore it, and she wore
it and you know, when I put it on, I
do it. Mean, I do save it for special occasions
(11:12):
because it's so special, but every now and again, I
just want to wear it so on close to her, you.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Know, yeah, absolutely, And that's fine too.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
You know, you know, people will choose, you know, what
works and someone and sometimes you know, you know, like
I think a piece is like you're describing of your
mom's you know, like that that and yet the purpose
that your mum bought it was for special occasions and
so therefore, you know, it's such a beautiful it gives
a beautiful meaning to it. And then I think that,
you know, for other purchases, you know, like if we
(11:43):
have I mean in a purpose, I think, well, should
I really wear you know, sort of like a silk
caftan or maybe not address or whatever for coffee?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
It's like, well, yeah, you can, absolutely you can do that.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
You know what. You can wear it with heels, you
can put on some sneaks, you can put on it. Absolutely,
you know, a little bit jumper over the top of
it if you need to. This is it.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah. And I love that. I absolutely love that.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
I mean, you know, when you actually go out on
the country and you go to any of the communities
and so on, I love how our of actually the
women will have one print on the top and another
print you know, on the skirt or whatever.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Look, I just I just love that you know, it's
it's around that comfortability and you know, not not sort
of overstyling things, but just having things just look fantastic.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Thank you. I mean, you can't see me at the
moment we're recording this for those of these things right now,
we're recording bya zoom. But Denny's in her car and
I'm asking you at the moment, and I'm nodding, nodding away,
and it's like you're giving us permission. You're giving us
permission to you know, put something on it and just
enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yes, Yes, absolutely, Denny.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
My understanding is that you had to walk away from
school earlier then maybe finishing it traditionally along with everyone
else to head off to work and things like that.
You finished your year twelve a little bit later through
night school. Can you tell me a little bit about
that period of time for you and what you're up to.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Yeah, yeah, Look, I've always loved learning. I still love learning,
and it's such a great part of their life's journey,
I think.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
So.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, I did leave school when I was young. I
left when I was informed four because you know, we
needed the financial support within the family. But you know,
I really did want to go and finish high school.
So I did that through through night school and completed
what was then my HS and then from that point on,
(13:55):
although I didn't go to university, I actually I've done
a lot of learning, like in all different ways, done
a lot of courses. Just turn up to any of
the sort of opportunities where you can learn learn something,
not always in a formal way, you know, sometimes just
attending a talk with somebody that piques my interest and
(14:16):
you come away and you reflect on that and think,
you know, oh, that was amazing, or you know, helping
you to see something from an angle that maybe you
hadn't seen it from before.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Oh, and I think never discount that learning. Like to me,
I think that is even the best learning that you'll
ever receive. Someone that's not only done the work, but
has failed a thousand times and found a way to
make it work. You might have a go at it
and might completely fail for you, but you took away
one other thing that then happy to work for you,
and it's practical knowledge, and it you know, it's Oh,
(14:50):
I just think we need more of it. More or more.
They're more almost like masterclasses, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Yeah, definitely, And you know my first nation. Grandmother said
to me, that's one of those things that you always remember.
She said that you'll only regret the things that you
don't do and everything else you learn from. And you know,
I've really, you know, really sort of taken that to heart.
I think, you know, sort of like sometimes you just
have to you know, find the courage and step into
(15:16):
something or you or you need a vision that is
powerful enough to keep you moving forward. There's a big
thing for me around why, you know, like the knowing
the why and what it is that you're doing, because
I think when you know that you know, then you
kind of know the purpose and help you to get
over a lot of the challenges that you may encounter
(15:37):
along that journey.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
So, Jenny, what is your why?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (15:41):
You know, I guess the concept that sits behind the
Gali is together we create and the concept around we
don't do anything individually or we don't achieve anything. I
don't think, you know, individually, like you know, when they run.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Awards and so on.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
It's it doesn't feel like, it doesn't feel right for
it to be, you know, water to a single person,
because there's a whole collection of people and experiences that
come together to have those things happen, or that recognition
to happen. So you know, my why is, you know,
what is the contribution that I can make through what
(16:17):
it is that I do. So that was the reason
of starting the Dale and Nadali was actually started for,
you know, how can we expand the reach of our
first Nations creatives, you know, through the concept of fashion.
And I've said a couple of times, you know, fashion
is not that important, and sometimes people in fashion go,
oh my gosh, what does that mean? But what I
mean by that is fashion in its own right is
(16:40):
not that important. But it's what fashion can do that's
really important. So fashion is a platform. I recognize the
opportunity for that to be able to share more of
our stories and about our culture, or expand the reach
of our artists. You know, look what our contribution could
be and expanding the pathway for others and particularly for
(17:00):
our young that are coming up, you know, so that
you know, the opportunities are wider and more visible. So
you know, that's the thing that drives me, I guess
in terms of what it is that I do, and
it's a really.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I think an important place to play in.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
So yeah, this born out of a frustration or was
it born out of a vision for just something to
be better? And when I say frustration, just we've got
so much great work out here, you know, why isn't
it being seen? Why isn't it being recognized? Why aren't
people paying attention to this work? Or was it?
Speaker 3 (17:42):
No?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
No, no, I see a future where our Australian First Nations
artwork can be delivered in not just similar paintings on
the wall, but you know on other platforms like fashion.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yeah, you know, like I think, as a First Stations person,
we have have a lot to be frustrated about. But
but but for for the Ghali and the reason starting
it started out of, you know, the vision of possibility,
you know it started Everything about the Gali has actually
been very free and and very the flow of the
(18:17):
Gali has actually been continuous to be very you know,
very very strong.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
You know.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
It just seems that you know, I feel quite strongly
sometimes well not sometimes I feel quite strongly that I
am guided by my ancestors and I talk to them,
you know all the time, and you know, and things
actually happen which you step back and go, oh my gosh,
you know, like I asked for that, and then that's there,
and I think that frustration doesn't have a place in that.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
No.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
I think you know that there's that that space again,
you know, that vision, you know, that sort of sense
of if something you know, if you trust, you know,
trust enough, and you follow that path, then you know,
then things happens, so they're meant to happen, and they
can generally evolve.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I hopes that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Oh it does, because you know, I'm listening to you
even explain that, and I go, it's just such a
different mindset, isn't it Really Like one would have been,
you know, something out of a negative and forcing your
way through, and the other is this vision or this
you know, like opportunity and yeah, putting it out there
and then seeing what happens. And they're two very different
(19:27):
mind spaces, you know, and one is like a pushing
and the other one is an opening almost. So I
mean that's just how I'm probably hearing things today.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, yeah, no, you know I think that that does
'encapsulate it. It's you know, it is it's sort of
like it is what it is.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
And it's also true thinking about where does creativity live
and It's different for different people, but for me, it
lives in flow and open spaces, and you know, connection
to country and connection to culture. That's where creativity flourishes,
I think from me.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Now, there are two things that that we have just
been speaking about that haven't We haven't touched the sides yet.
I'll tell you what the two are. The first year is,
you know, so you've completed your high school education, and
then where did it kick in to start with fashion?
And then the second is I need to know more
about your grandmother. So should we do? I think we
(20:22):
need to do where it became fashion for you? What
was it? Was there? Was there someone that whispered something
to you, like you'd be really good at this, Denny?
Or was it a was it back to the red
flag jeans?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Uh? No, it actually it just it was something that
I sort of played with, something that I played with
more probably sort of like a as a hobby, and
then just started to, you know, play around with doing
some screen printing and playing a bit with textiles, and
but it was all just really play. And then when
my daughter was born and she was three years old,
(20:59):
I started doing clothing for her. So I started putting
clothing together for her, and then people were saying, oh,
you know, can I order that from you?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Or can I get that from you?
Speaker 3 (21:09):
And so on, And it's probably then the first time
that I actually really started to kind of look at it.
And then I started a business that was a direct
cell business because it was actually around then thinking about
women with children and how they have to you know,
how we all have to adjust ourselves and you know,
work around our kids and so on, and you know,
(21:33):
and it was a way of actually just some some
of the women just said, you know, I want to
share my friends, and that's kind of how all of
that happens. So I often That was a company called
Billy Cart Clothing, and I talk about that is it
was a it was not even a conscious decision to
start it. It was it kind of started by accident,
simply because of what I was doing with my daughter.
(21:54):
And then I met I was introduced to an amazing woman,
Need McCall, who was much better designer than me, and
a friend of mine kept saying, you must meet Need
because you know, I think you two would get on
really well, and blah blah blah. And anyway, we met
and had lunch and over lunch we decided to go
into business together and then Billy Cart you know, grew
(22:15):
to become we had to think a thousand salespeople around Australia,
you know, at the height of what it was that
we were doing. Again though, it was that concept of
that it was beyond fashion because it sounded like it
was fashion, But I think more importantly it was gave
women or mothers the opportunity to work and earn an
income around their children, you know, still taking their children
(22:38):
to school, picking them up after school, going to school
concerts or sports days. And then that incredible camaraderie that
happens when amazing women come together. So I guess the
platform was fashion, but the bigger context was what can
be created collectively.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
And never underestimate a group of come together that have
little children. I mean, they could change well, they can
not only run a kindergarten, but they can absolutely in
terms of word of mouth. And that's how things evolved,
isn't it. Oh you've got to look at this. Have
a look at this. Oh this is my friend Denny.
Have a look at this. What you know? Yeah, yeah,
(23:17):
this organic community up swelling is what I'm hearing.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
And what was interesting in that is, you know, as
I said that Need was much better designer than I was.
I was much more skilled designer because I'd never been
officially trained.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
She had been.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
And I found myself, you know, working with all of
the women and the sales team, and I remember waking
up one morning going, oh my gosh, like you know,
like it was a bit scary. But out of that,
I think, you know, I learned some of my biggest
lessons around leadership, around a camaraderie, around achieving outcomes by
(23:53):
working with people. So that was that togetherness that happened
as well, and what we did during that time we
implemented a lot of training programs that we all learned from.
And to this day, there's still people that talk about,
you know, the impact that I'd had on their life
in terms of being able to start their own businesses
or the things that they've actually gone on to do
(24:14):
in their life, and that's really heart warming as well.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
You cannot beat a group of women. I say it
all the time. I'm so very conscious of our time together, Denny.
But I do need to know about this grandmother, because
when you spoke of her, there was just something there,
you know, and it was almost like a you know,
like you can fall over and scrape your knee, you
(24:39):
get back up and have another go type you know.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
You tell me, well, yeah, she was pretty tough. Like
she was pretty tough, but in a great way.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
And you know, she also moved with my auntie to
Sydney and lived there. I can't quite remember the timing,
whether it was just before or just after we got
to but I used to write to her every week
because she you know, just missing those stories of just
sitting with her, you know, sort of like on the
on the Verandah, you know, opposite the community tank across
(25:13):
the road, you know, sort of twenty nine miles from
the town and there's you know, the stories that she
would talk about and so on. So you know, she
was a very formidable woman, very strong woman, and I
you know, I just remember having those special times with her,
and sometimes I wonder whether that's where my strength comes from.
(25:36):
You know. My mother was an amazing woman as well.
My mother was always in survival mode, you know, to
make sure that we were all okay. So she was
pretty awesome of course as well. And then my grandmother
is actually where I think where I got the strength from.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, and again I hate saying conscious of time because
my challenge is when I get to meet someone like you,
I wish I could have three hours with you about
this isn't the Joe Rogan podcast, and I can't keep
going over. But you know, I feel like the brand
that you have built and you talk about it like
(26:11):
it's it's not just fashion is the platform, but it's
more than that. I feel like you're building something that's going.
You know, we talk about legacies at times, we talk
about leaving something. I'm a huge believer and lover of
the concept of cathedral thinking creating something for future generations
that aren't even born yet. And I just listening to
(26:34):
you today and looking at your work, it feels like
you really are creating something for future generations. So what
is your vision for the brand?
Speaker 3 (26:46):
I think you know that the path that Nagali has
created and continues to create is actually, you know, if
it opens up more of a pathway and widening the space,
creating more space for any of our young to you know,
to come down that pathway, that's amazing and I think
that that is our responsibility as first nations people within
(27:09):
our community always to be thinking who is following us
and what is our responsibility, what's our cultural responsibility in that?
But I'm also too conscious that that pathway no matter
you know, if it's widening, it's widening in a way
that anybody in our community or a mob that follows,
they follow it in their own way, you know, because
(27:30):
I'm conscious that Nogali doesn't have all the answers, and
you know, like Nogali is just doing what it is
that we do and you know, with the intention around
it absolutely and that vision of possibility. But I am
hoping that within that, you know, that legacy or that
halfway for others to follow, that they can follow it
in their own way, you know, So not even to
(27:52):
look at what Nogal is doing and think that they
have to do it the same.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Way that we're doing it or any other way.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
It's just a maybe it's just a thought data, you know,
a concept like a reflection or a concept consideration or
whatever that is. So I'm I'm yeah, So I'm I'm
conscious that what we build collectively as sort of individual businesses,
(28:18):
there's a nuance about every one of them, and so
I think I feel like a little nervous or a
little uncomfortable sometimes around feeling oh, you know, like Nogali
is creating a pathway. You know, I don't know, I
can't quite explain that I would, just like, I guess
I'm just saying and I feel like I'm rambling now,
but I guess I'm just saying that whatever it is
(28:41):
that Negali can do that opens up any any pathway,
any opportunity, any thought process, any reflection, any sort of
like commitment to you know, what we do that makes
a contribution to our communities overall, that people do it
in the way that's meaningful for them.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
I think you're just very very humble. Oh my goodness.
I think even if you look at it like while
you're laying the groundwork and you know, let's see where
it all, where it all goes, I think regardless, something
very special has been created. And I just feel very
(29:21):
very lucky that I've been able to spend just a
tiny amount of time with you today, and I can't
wait to get to know you some more and start
supporting your work. So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Oh, that's so lovely of you decide, It was just
so lovely of you to give the opportunity to have
this discussion, so I'm
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Very grateful do for that as well.
Welcome to the Women of Influence podcast. I'm your host,
Kate Meete, and it is so great to be back
in your ears. I would like to acknowledge the traditional
owners of the land in which this podcast was recorded,
and I pay my respects to their elders past and present,
and the Aboriginal elders of other communities who may be
(00:20):
listening today. This is a special five part series in
partnership with the Melbourne Fashion Festival, celebrating the extraordinary women
of the Melbourne fashion industry. Australia is home to some
remarkable women. They're raising foster families, running cattle stations, living
inspirational lives. Yet many of their tales of triumph are
(00:43):
never profiled and never celebrated. So we're changing all that
through our Women of Influence podcast. For more information about
our Women of Influence the Melbourne Fashion Festival edition, please
check out our show notes and of course the Women
of Influence socials. And as always, if you have a
woman in your life that needs to be celebrated and
(01:05):
we all need to hear her story, please connect with us.
We would love to hear from you. Thank you so
much always for your support and I hope that you
smile as much as I did recording these episodes. These
episodes were recorded via zoom in Melbourne and you know
(01:27):
I love address.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Denny.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Oh it's great to be here, Kate, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I just need to start with one thing, and that
is the red Flare pants. Can you tell me about
those red flarepants?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Yes, the red flappants. It's become quite funny really, But
the background of that is that when we move to
the country to the city I was fourteen, it was
all very overwhelming and just you know, being in the city,
coming from a place where everybody knew you to nobody
knows you. And I remember seeing these red Flare pants
(02:13):
in this shopping album. Was totally mesmerized by them, and
I was actually asking my mother could I have these pants?
But you know, sort of as a single parent and
someone I remember her saying, you know, I can't always
give you what you want, And so there was some
suggestion about did that actually start my interest in fashion?
(02:34):
I'm not really sure, but it's a pretty vivid memory
that I have.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
And you know, for a mum to be honest with
you too, you know, okay, Denny. You know, like I'm
working it hard here just to get food on the table.
I can't just go. I imagine the red pants would
have been pretty extravagant.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yes, yes, I mean it was a bit silly in
a way, you know, when you're sort of like looking
at sort of everything that actually goes on around you,
and these are red flear pants. But I think they've
become a bit of a metaphor really.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So the move from country to the city would have
been jarring by itself. But to do it at that age.
What are your earliest memories of living in the country.
And it was New South Wales, wasn't it. It was a
Victoria Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah, it was in your South Wales? And I mean
growing up in the country was fantastic with all cousins
and you know, aunties and so on. And my family
worked on the land and so we had lots of
school holidays, all sleeping out in the shearing sheds and
things like that. So you know, all of that was
you know, great memories and you know, had us all
(03:45):
be pretty close as a family.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
So was it mum needing to do work or what
was it that was Okay, Denny, we're moving to the city.
This is what's happening.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah, you know, my parents separated and my mum had
family here in Melbourne and I could give her support,
and so that was the decision that she made to
come here. And one of my older brothers stayed with
my dad, and my younger brother when he was old enough,
he went back and lived with my dad as well,
but my sister and I stay with my mother in
(04:20):
the city.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
I've been going through your website, by the way, and
I don't get paid until next week, so I had
to really just hold off before I go silly. It's
interesting actually, because when I was going through your website
and looking at things that I could purchase, the use
of silk, you know, is so predominant in your work.
And it's interesting to me because when I was speaking
(04:45):
to Ralph, who is on episode one, she talked about
this feeling of the silk in her hands and how
she can sposh if it's real silk or it's not
real silk, and things like that. But I'm curious about
why it was silk for you. What was it about
this use that you were like, no, this is the
(05:05):
scarves are going to be silk. A lot of the
dresses I could see that we're in the silk or
a really beautiful clotton. What was it about the silk
for you?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I think it was, well, it is actually about the softness,
it's about the tactiles of nature of it. But importantly
it's about the movement and how people feel when they
have a silk garment on. So you know, I'm always
conscious about space and space around us and how we
can move with as much ease as possible through our
(05:37):
every day, So that's one part of it. But also
to the richness of silk. I felt was a really
good beginning for us to be able to translate the
artworks and put onto the silks, because it just looks amazing.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
And then the colors are vivid and so on.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
So I thought that it was a it's a fabulous
fabric to use. It doesn't mean that we don't do
cotton as well, but the silk is just something that's
just so beautifully tactile and just moves with the breeze
and moves with the movement of the person. Yeah, that's
as it conjures a beautiful feel of comfortability.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
I guess but even when you said it conjures this beautiful,
you know, I drew in a breath because it just
it feels like each piece is telling me a story.
But it was more than that. You know, I was
either taken to the ocean, which is a very special
place to me, or you know, I was a country
(06:38):
kid myself, so you know, back to the land there
was each piece is telling me a story. Can you
is that what I would be feeling? Can you tell
me more about that? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
So we have really two sort of sort of hero
collections if you want to sort of look at it
like that, and within those collections there are other collections.
But with the artworks we're being working on with Digitre
artist lends in Malay from the Kimberlee. You know, we
talk about Dreams of the Kimberley and that is actually
the artwork that is that encapsulates Lindsay's story and his
(07:13):
connection to country, his country and his family and they're
in those beautiful earthy tones. And then we also to
have the whispers of the eucalyptse and that's my photography
as I capture what we would call country with all
of the gum trees that actually is this throughout the
(07:34):
landscape because they all have in their own right, their
own story to tell. So there's lindsay story, and then
there's also to the story of the gum trees. And
as time passes and say, weather changes and so on,
gum trees just deliver this incredibly array of patterns and
(07:56):
colors and so on. And then with the First Nations
work that is so connected to country as well, but
that interpretation of that artwork that happens from that is
from the artists themselves. So I think that the combination
of those two concepts is actually really quite beautiful.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
And I think even when when looking at your pieces,
and you know, I'm only looking at it online, I
just I felt like, you know, to purchase a piece
from you is really to purchase something that you would
have for a lifetime. Is that part of you know,
the brand and what's important to you. You know, you
invest not just in a piece, but this will be
(08:37):
something that you know, potentially you can hand it down
to your daughter, your granddaughter. It's going to last.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, absolutely, And I think, you know, and I guess
that's that's what our ethof is is to actually, you know,
not be trends related where you start something and stop
it and then start something else and stop it. It's
actually that again, that free flowing process of how the
silhouettes and the and the garment prints or the scarf
(09:04):
prints actually flow, you know, from season to season, year
to year. So it's the there's design not to sort
of like look out of step with whatever it is
that's going on around, but to be in stepped and
to have their place no matter where people want to
wear them. Like I talk about, you know how sometimes
you know, people keep special things for special I.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Might just get them in their wardrobe, or it.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Might be the good crystal ware that you know, my
you know, my grandmother, not my indigenous grandmother or my
other grandmother might keep for special occasions. But it's like what,
you know, what don't you enjoy that now? So you know,
just bring up to slip on a soft silk dress
and go for coffee with friends on a weekend. Why
would we not do that? You know, if that's how
(09:49):
we feel within that garment. But in addition to that
is the story concept. And there's so much too around
conscious consumerism, but what is really nice is actually having
purchases that we invest in to have a meaning, you know,
to have a story behind them, so it's not just
(10:10):
a piece of fabric, you know, made into a garment.
It actually has a really beautiful story about it. It
has a connection. And I think that that's to your
point about when when we have pieces like that, they
have a sort of like special place for us and
that they you know, they have longevity.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, and I think, you know, they're the pieces that
I managed to have three pieces of my mother's in
the cupboard, and it's a similar thing. Actually, I just think,
you know, number one, I'm privileged you know that that
they are in there. And number two, you know they
were hers and she picked them for these occasions that
(10:52):
she had them for, and now I have them and
you know, not just the story of the piece, the
design of the one of the dress is that I'm
thinking about, but it's the story of what it was
purchased for and where she wore it, and she wore
it and you know, when I put it on, I
do it. Mean, I do save it for special occasions
(11:12):
because it's so special, but every now and again, I
just want to wear it so on close to her, you.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Know, yeah, absolutely, And that's fine too.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
You know, you know, people will choose, you know, what
works and someone and sometimes you know, you know, like
I think a piece is like you're describing of your
mom's you know, like that that and yet the purpose
that your mum bought it was for special occasions and
so therefore, you know, it's such a beautiful it gives
a beautiful meaning to it. And then I think that,
you know, for other purchases, you know, like if we
(11:43):
have I mean in a purpose, I think, well, should
I really wear you know, sort of like a silk
caftan or maybe not address or whatever for coffee?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
It's like, well, yeah, you can, absolutely you can do that.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
You know what. You can wear it with heels, you
can put on some sneaks, you can put on it. Absolutely,
you know, a little bit jumper over the top of
it if you need to. This is it.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah. And I love that. I absolutely love that.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
I mean, you know, when you actually go out on
the country and you go to any of the communities
and so on, I love how our of actually the
women will have one print on the top and another
print you know, on the skirt or whatever.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Look, I just I just love that you know, it's
it's around that comfortability and you know, not not sort
of overstyling things, but just having things just look fantastic.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Thank you. I mean, you can't see me at the
moment we're recording this for those of these things right now,
we're recording bya zoom. But Denny's in her car and
I'm asking you at the moment, and I'm nodding, nodding away,
and it's like you're giving us permission. You're giving us
permission to you know, put something on it and just
enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yes, Yes, absolutely, Denny.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
My understanding is that you had to walk away from
school earlier then maybe finishing it traditionally along with everyone
else to head off to work and things like that.
You finished your year twelve a little bit later through
night school. Can you tell me a little bit about
that period of time for you and what you're up to.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Yeah, yeah, Look, I've always loved learning. I still love learning,
and it's such a great part of their life's journey,
I think.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
So.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, I did leave school when I was young. I
left when I was informed four because you know, we
needed the financial support within the family. But you know,
I really did want to go and finish high school.
So I did that through through night school and completed
what was then my HS and then from that point on,
(13:55):
although I didn't go to university, I actually I've done
a lot of learning, like in all different ways, done
a lot of courses. Just turn up to any of
the sort of opportunities where you can learn learn something,
not always in a formal way, you know, sometimes just
attending a talk with somebody that piques my interest and
(14:16):
you come away and you reflect on that and think,
you know, oh, that was amazing, or you know, helping
you to see something from an angle that maybe you
hadn't seen it from before.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Oh, and I think never discount that learning. Like to me,
I think that is even the best learning that you'll
ever receive. Someone that's not only done the work, but
has failed a thousand times and found a way to
make it work. You might have a go at it
and might completely fail for you, but you took away
one other thing that then happy to work for you,
and it's practical knowledge, and it you know, it's Oh,
(14:50):
I just think we need more of it. More or more.
They're more almost like masterclasses, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Yeah, definitely, And you know my first nation. Grandmother said
to me, that's one of those things that you always remember.
She said that you'll only regret the things that you
don't do and everything else you learn from. And you know,
I've really, you know, really sort of taken that to heart.
I think, you know, sort of like sometimes you just
have to you know, find the courage and step into
(15:16):
something or you or you need a vision that is
powerful enough to keep you moving forward. There's a big
thing for me around why, you know, like the knowing
the why and what it is that you're doing, because
I think when you know that you know, then you
kind of know the purpose and help you to get
over a lot of the challenges that you may encounter
(15:37):
along that journey.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
So, Jenny, what is your why?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (15:41):
You know, I guess the concept that sits behind the
Gali is together we create and the concept around we
don't do anything individually or we don't achieve anything. I
don't think, you know, individually, like you know, when they run.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Awards and so on.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
It's it doesn't feel like, it doesn't feel right for
it to be, you know, water to a single person,
because there's a whole collection of people and experiences that
come together to have those things happen, or that recognition
to happen. So you know, my why is, you know,
what is the contribution that I can make through what
(16:17):
it is that I do. So that was the reason
of starting the Dale and Nadali was actually started for,
you know, how can we expand the reach of our
first Nations creatives, you know, through the concept of fashion.
And I've said a couple of times, you know, fashion
is not that important, and sometimes people in fashion go,
oh my gosh, what does that mean? But what I
mean by that is fashion in its own right is
(16:40):
not that important. But it's what fashion can do that's
really important. So fashion is a platform. I recognize the
opportunity for that to be able to share more of
our stories and about our culture, or expand the reach
of our artists. You know, look what our contribution could
be and expanding the pathway for others and particularly for
(17:00):
our young that are coming up, you know, so that
you know, the opportunities are wider and more visible. So
you know, that's the thing that drives me, I guess
in terms of what it is that I do, and
it's a really.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I think an important place to play in.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
So yeah, this born out of a frustration or was
it born out of a vision for just something to
be better? And when I say frustration, just we've got
so much great work out here, you know, why isn't
it being seen? Why isn't it being recognized? Why aren't
people paying attention to this work? Or was it?
Speaker 3 (17:42):
No?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
No, no, I see a future where our Australian First Nations
artwork can be delivered in not just similar paintings on
the wall, but you know on other platforms like fashion.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yeah, you know, like I think, as a First Stations person,
we have have a lot to be frustrated about. But
but but for for the Ghali and the reason starting
it started out of, you know, the vision of possibility,
you know it started Everything about the Gali has actually
been very free and and very the flow of the
(18:17):
Gali has actually been continuous to be very you know,
very very strong.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
You know.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
It just seems that you know, I feel quite strongly
sometimes well not sometimes I feel quite strongly that I
am guided by my ancestors and I talk to them,
you know all the time, and you know, and things
actually happen which you step back and go, oh my gosh,
you know, like I asked for that, and then that's there,
and I think that frustration doesn't have a place in that.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
No.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
I think you know that there's that that space again,
you know, that vision, you know, that sort of sense
of if something you know, if you trust, you know,
trust enough, and you follow that path, then you know,
then things happens, so they're meant to happen, and they
can generally evolve.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I hopes that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Oh it does, because you know, I'm listening to you
even explain that, and I go, it's just such a
different mindset, isn't it Really Like one would have been,
you know, something out of a negative and forcing your
way through, and the other is this vision or this
you know, like opportunity and yeah, putting it out there
and then seeing what happens. And they're two very different
(19:27):
mind spaces, you know, and one is like a pushing
and the other one is an opening almost. So I
mean that's just how I'm probably hearing things today.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, yeah, no, you know I think that that does
'encapsulate it. It's you know, it is it's sort of
like it is what it is.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
And it's also true thinking about where does creativity live
and It's different for different people, but for me, it
lives in flow and open spaces, and you know, connection
to country and connection to culture. That's where creativity flourishes,
I think from me.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Now, there are two things that that we have just
been speaking about that haven't We haven't touched the sides yet.
I'll tell you what the two are. The first year is,
you know, so you've completed your high school education, and
then where did it kick in to start with fashion?
And then the second is I need to know more
about your grandmother. So should we do? I think we
(20:22):
need to do where it became fashion for you? What
was it? Was there? Was there someone that whispered something
to you, like you'd be really good at this, Denny?
Or was it a was it back to the red
flag jeans?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Uh? No, it actually it just it was something that
I sort of played with, something that I played with
more probably sort of like a as a hobby, and
then just started to, you know, play around with doing
some screen printing and playing a bit with textiles, and
but it was all just really play. And then when
my daughter was born and she was three years old,
(20:59):
I started doing clothing for her. So I started putting
clothing together for her, and then people were saying, oh,
you know, can I order that from you?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Or can I get that from you?
Speaker 3 (21:09):
And so on, And it's probably then the first time
that I actually really started to kind of look at it.
And then I started a business that was a direct
cell business because it was actually around then thinking about
women with children and how they have to you know,
how we all have to adjust ourselves and you know,
work around our kids and so on, and you know,
(21:33):
and it was a way of actually just some some
of the women just said, you know, I want to
share my friends, and that's kind of how all of
that happens. So I often That was a company called
Billy Cart Clothing, and I talk about that is it
was a it was not even a conscious decision to
start it. It was it kind of started by accident,
simply because of what I was doing with my daughter.
(21:54):
And then I met I was introduced to an amazing woman,
Need McCall, who was much better designer than me, and
a friend of mine kept saying, you must meet Need
because you know, I think you two would get on
really well, and blah blah blah. And anyway, we met
and had lunch and over lunch we decided to go
into business together and then Billy Cart you know, grew
(22:15):
to become we had to think a thousand salespeople around Australia,
you know, at the height of what it was that
we were doing. Again though, it was that concept of
that it was beyond fashion because it sounded like it
was fashion, But I think more importantly it was gave
women or mothers the opportunity to work and earn an
income around their children, you know, still taking their children
(22:38):
to school, picking them up after school, going to school
concerts or sports days. And then that incredible camaraderie that
happens when amazing women come together. So I guess the
platform was fashion, but the bigger context was what can
be created collectively.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
And never underestimate a group of come together that have
little children. I mean, they could change well, they can
not only run a kindergarten, but they can absolutely in
terms of word of mouth. And that's how things evolved,
isn't it. Oh you've got to look at this. Have
a look at this. Oh this is my friend Denny.
Have a look at this. What you know? Yeah, yeah,
(23:17):
this organic community up swelling is what I'm hearing.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
And what was interesting in that is, you know, as
I said that Need was much better designer than I was.
I was much more skilled designer because I'd never been
officially trained.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
She had been.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
And I found myself, you know, working with all of
the women and the sales team, and I remember waking
up one morning going, oh my gosh, like you know,
like it was a bit scary. But out of that,
I think, you know, I learned some of my biggest
lessons around leadership, around a camaraderie, around achieving outcomes by
(23:53):
working with people. So that was that togetherness that happened
as well, and what we did during that time we
implemented a lot of training programs that we all learned from.
And to this day, there's still people that talk about,
you know, the impact that I'd had on their life
in terms of being able to start their own businesses
or the things that they've actually gone on to do
(24:14):
in their life, and that's really heart warming as well.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
You cannot beat a group of women. I say it
all the time. I'm so very conscious of our time together, Denny.
But I do need to know about this grandmother, because
when you spoke of her, there was just something there,
you know, and it was almost like a you know,
like you can fall over and scrape your knee, you
(24:39):
get back up and have another go type you know.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
You tell me, well, yeah, she was pretty tough. Like
she was pretty tough, but in a great way.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
And you know, she also moved with my auntie to
Sydney and lived there. I can't quite remember the timing,
whether it was just before or just after we got
to but I used to write to her every week
because she you know, just missing those stories of just
sitting with her, you know, sort of like on the
on the Verandah, you know, opposite the community tank across
(25:13):
the road, you know, sort of twenty nine miles from
the town and there's you know, the stories that she
would talk about and so on. So you know, she
was a very formidable woman, very strong woman, and I
you know, I just remember having those special times with her,
and sometimes I wonder whether that's where my strength comes from.
(25:36):
You know. My mother was an amazing woman as well.
My mother was always in survival mode, you know, to
make sure that we were all okay. So she was
pretty awesome of course as well. And then my grandmother
is actually where I think where I got the strength from.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, and again I hate saying conscious of time because
my challenge is when I get to meet someone like you,
I wish I could have three hours with you about
this isn't the Joe Rogan podcast, and I can't keep
going over. But you know, I feel like the brand
that you have built and you talk about it like
(26:11):
it's it's not just fashion is the platform, but it's
more than that. I feel like you're building something that's going.
You know, we talk about legacies at times, we talk
about leaving something. I'm a huge believer and lover of
the concept of cathedral thinking creating something for future generations
that aren't even born yet. And I just listening to
(26:34):
you today and looking at your work, it feels like
you really are creating something for future generations. So what
is your vision for the brand?
Speaker 3 (26:46):
I think you know that the path that Nagali has
created and continues to create is actually, you know, if
it opens up more of a pathway and widening the space,
creating more space for any of our young to you know,
to come down that pathway, that's amazing and I think
that that is our responsibility as first nations people within
(27:09):
our community always to be thinking who is following us
and what is our responsibility, what's our cultural responsibility in that?
But I'm also too conscious that that pathway no matter
you know, if it's widening, it's widening in a way
that anybody in our community or a mob that follows,
they follow it in their own way, you know, because
(27:30):
I'm conscious that Nogali doesn't have all the answers, and
you know, like Nogali is just doing what it is
that we do and you know, with the intention around
it absolutely and that vision of possibility. But I am
hoping that within that, you know, that legacy or that
halfway for others to follow, that they can follow it
in their own way, you know, So not even to
(27:52):
look at what Nogal is doing and think that they
have to do it the same.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Way that we're doing it or any other way.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
It's just a maybe it's just a thought data, you know,
a concept like a reflection or a concept consideration or
whatever that is. So I'm I'm yeah, So I'm I'm
conscious that what we build collectively as sort of individual businesses,
(28:18):
there's a nuance about every one of them, and so
I think I feel like a little nervous or a
little uncomfortable sometimes around feeling oh, you know, like Nogali
is creating a pathway. You know, I don't know, I
can't quite explain that I would, just like, I guess
I'm just saying and I feel like I'm rambling now,
but I guess I'm just saying that whatever it is
(28:41):
that Negali can do that opens up any any pathway,
any opportunity, any thought process, any reflection, any sort of
like commitment to you know, what we do that makes
a contribution to our communities overall, that people do it
in the way that's meaningful for them.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
I think you're just very very humble. Oh my goodness.
I think even if you look at it like while
you're laying the groundwork and you know, let's see where
it all, where it all goes, I think regardless, something
very special has been created. And I just feel very
(29:21):
very lucky that I've been able to spend just a
tiny amount of time with you today, and I can't
wait to get to know you some more and start
supporting your work. So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Oh, that's so lovely of you decide, It was just
so lovely of you to give the opportunity to have
this discussion, so I'm
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Very grateful do for that as well.
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