June 24, 2025 • 42 mins
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Episode Links:
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This week’s guests are Dr. Alisha David. Alisha is an educator, researcher, and lifelong lover of a good story. Over
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Andrew Jacobs (00:11):
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the
Education One of the Women Talking About Learning podcast. I'm
Andrew Jacobs. This episode is unusual in the fact
that both of our guests knew each other and came to us
to ask if they could record this topic by themselves
and of course we said yes. Both of our guests are
from Canada and they share their experiences in
(00:32):
education. Our first guest is Dr. Alicia
David. Alesha is an educator, researcher,
uh, and lifelong lover of a good story.
Over the past 15 years she's worked across a range of
educational settings from educational assisting
to classroom teaching and now serves as a full time
post secondary instructor. Much of her learning and life
(00:52):
has been shaped by the people of Treaty 8 territory in
Alberta, Canada, the ancestral and traditional
lands of the Cree, Dene and Metis. Having called
this beautiful region home for many years, she's deeply
impacted by its ongoing destruction which has
inspired her research into disaster induced loss
and its implications for education and adult learners.
(01:12):
Our next guest is Helena Prins. Helena is an
advisor of learning and teaching at British Columbia campus
where she coordinates the Facilitating Learning online
portfolio. She began her career as
a high school teacher in South Africa and over the past
20 years she's taught students of all ages and stages
on four continents. A golden thread
(01:33):
throughout her career has been breaking down barriers to learning.
Prior to joining BC campus in 2020,
she worked as a career learning and development advisor at
Royal Rhodes University. As an immigrant and
now Canadian citizen, she continues to value the
opportunity to support all students, especially international,
in finding and building their career path in Canada.
(01:54):
Recorded in May 2025. This
is a really engaging conversation, so settle
back and enjoy. This is women talking about
learning. This is Alicia and Helena
talking about education.
>> Dr. Alicia David (02:08):
Hello Alicia, how are you this morning?
>> Helena Prins (02:11):
Hello, lovely. Wonderful here
in uh, Northern Alberta.
So the weather is nice, it's getting spring. I'm very
excited.
>> Dr. Alicia David (02:21):
Yes, I'm definitely more of a spring summer lady
myself. Um, but I am coming this
morning a little bit tired, I have to be honest. I did
my first presentation ever on
my research publicly yesterday and you can
imagine just the imposter syndrome
that goes with it and showing up in a room
(02:41):
thinking, will anyone show up for this
presentation? And you know, I had a full room
and while I did get a little bit emotional talking about the
research and the participants and their stories,
it landed and I got some m good feedback
and now I have about two weeks to
prepare for my doctoral defence.
(03:01):
But you've been through this, right? So maybe today,
uh, that's something, uh, that we'll touch on.
Why do you want to talk about education today?
>> Helena Prins (03:08):
100%. Well, exactly the reasons that you
were talking about, you know, going through all of my education,
I felt like I didn't belong there the
entire time. And it really was
not until I found community in the space that I
started feeling like, okay, maybe this doesn't feel
like it was made for me, but I can make
(03:29):
it my own if I find the right people. And you are one of
those people. And I feel. Yeah. So
fortunate. And so hopefully
anybody listening will feel at
home with us, uh, and if not, they'll feel
motivated to find their own communities after today.
>> Dr. Alicia David (03:45):
So. Yeah, it's kind of ironic that you said they'll feel
at home with us because that was part of your
defence title, wasn't it? Your dissertation was
about home loss. And when I first
met you and heard your story, I think
your educational story is really one of
loss, but in the end also resilience. So.
(04:06):
Wow, I just want to kind of hear that again how
you went through your educational journey, because
I found it so inspirational. And I
know as we continue to learn from each other,
there continues to be lessons from that as well.
>> Helena Prins (04:21):
Yeah, yeah. So
really, um, my education started
probably formally in the way that everybody else does. I was
desperate to find a job and just needed to do something that would
get me a job that I thought I'd be half decent
at. And so I started school to become an
elementary school teacher. But
during that undergraduate degree my, my hometown
(04:44):
of Slave Lake, Alberta burned down. Most of it
anyway. Um, and so I was
navigating loss as a student with very little support
because it was the first time that that
on that scale had happened in my province.
And so really post secondary institutions were
reeling just as we were as students.
(05:05):
And once I finished that credential, ah, I thought
never going to have to deal with that again until when I was doing my
Master's, I lost a second home in another fire in
20. Um,
yeah, yeah. And then. But you know, like you
said, there was this real beauty that came out
of it because I made it
(05:26):
my mission as an educator to really make
spaces that allowed for students
lives to be present because there was not
a lot of policy or practise. Uh,
certainly there are many amazing educators. But
something I found going through both of those experiences was
that I felt really alone and I didn't recognise that what I was
(05:47):
experiencing was loss or grief, which sounds silly
now obviously, um, but
it made me really consider how we bring our whole selves
into educational spaces and how we navigate
all the hard stuff that comes with life,
um, in those spaces. And that's really challenging.
And you. We have a very similar sort of.
(06:07):
Even though it's very different, but we've come to education
for sort of similar reasons.
>> Dr. Alicia David (06:11):
Yes, I think so. I mean, my story started
in South Africa and I did travel
abroad then thinking I will leave teaching because
I found it so overwhelming, ah, being a young teacher,
uh, in a difficult context. And then I just
fell in love with teaching again. When I had all these, I was
in Taiwan, I had this classroom with little human beings
(06:32):
in it. And that kind of drove me to my master's
degree in early childhood education because I thought
I need to, you know, I was a high school teacher and this is a
different, different game altogether, working with the
little ones. And then, yeah, now I'm in adult learning
and I'm. I find it for me, I think what
drives me is access. And it
was interesting in the way I really
(06:54):
resonate with you just now when you talk about feeling isolated.
When I came to the doctoral, um, journey,
it's a cohort model where I really found
people that's like minded and that's just
as passionate about education. And we formed, it was in
our cohort, uh, a group of four ladies, we call
ourselves the dorm girls because we lived in
(07:15):
the residence together for two years. And,
um, it was just so wonderful. And it still
is. That support, I think, is
almost more meaningful than whatever that credential
after our name will be. Right? Like just that
community of women supporting each other. And
we have this WhatsApp chat and if someone reached a
milestone, there's celebration. And that, to me is
(07:38):
important. And why this conversation is important
is women celebrating each other's success.
Because I think that is sometimes rare, right?
>> Helena Prins (07:47):
Uh, yeah, definitely. And you know, I also,
as you know, had this exact experience with these
lovely three women. We don't have
a fun name though, so maybe we need to come up with one after.
After the fact.
>> Dr. Alicia David (08:00):
Maybe a bit late for that.
>> Helena Prins (08:01):
Yeah, it's a little late, but anyway. Um,
but I felt really kind of
inspired by everyone's willingness to
be vulnerable about how challenging the
doctoral experience was for all of us. And that's something that I
hadn't had in my undergrad or my master's. I definitely
really resonate with having relationships with strong
(08:22):
women. I can point to a woman or
two, my undergrad and my master's,
that I'm still very close with and still good friends with.
But the intensity of doctoral studies was very
different. And just the sheer volume of
insecurity I felt during that experience was very different.
So having these women to call upon really,
(08:42):
um, became hugely significant. And as you
know, because this is how we met, it really inspired
me to be that for other people. And so
when I was asked to come and speak to your doctoral cohort for
the first time, I like, jumped on the opportunity because I
thought, well, if I can make even one person
feel less alone in this experience, that's what I'm going to
(09:03):
do. So that's how we interacted for the first
time.
>> Dr. Alicia David (09:06):
Yeah, I, uh, remember you've always
been very honest about that feeling of that you didn't think
you belong. And I don't know where that comes from for us.
But so for me, this idea of community,
collaboration and learning, um, supporting each other
really helps with that imposter syndrome, because it keeps
rearing its head. Right. It's not like you fix imposter
(09:28):
syndrome. Like, I had that severely yesterday,
waiting for people to show up for my presentation.
So I think while there's not a quick fix for it,
I think one way of mitigating imposter
syndrome is to find support from others
who are kind of navigating the same journey
in education.
Um, one of the things that I'm struggling with now, and
(09:49):
I think because you've been through it, you could maybe give some
input here, is that fatigue, that risk
of burnout. Um, you've given it your all and you
want to keep moving because the more you learn, the more you know
that you don't know everything. And also
just the idea of, um,
there's so much work to do. Right.
(10:10):
So much work to do to make it better for others. So
how did you recover after your
journey?
>> Helena Prins (10:16):
Oh, my goodness. So, you know, that's something that I
recognised in doing my research, that I was not
attending to all of the hard emotions that come
with. I mean, life generally,
but also, you know,
especially educational, formal educational settings.
Um, and so it really
(10:37):
took a lot of time. And as you know, I'm doing
a year of joy right now.
>> Dr. Alicia David (10:42):
And so tell me more how that's going for you,
Alicia.
>> Helena Prins (10:46):
It's going wonderfully. I love it, um, and
I'll tell you about it, but I
really felt all of this pressure and I think
a lot of people who are pursuing formal education feel
this way, where they. You feel like you need
to now do something with it. I've just worked my
little hiney off from the time that I
(11:06):
graduated high school. I did all of these credentials, I did
this Big research, which is so important to me.
And there was a real, um,
intense feeling that I needed to keep doing it, keep
publishing, keep going to conferences, keep sharing my work with
people in these really rigid, informal spaces.
I also knew that my health was being gravely
(11:26):
impacted by the constant work and the
constant emotional toll of
navigating a hard space, really.
And I thought, okay, well, what would it look like if I did
something radically different with my year after
doctoral completion? What if instead of doing all
of the conferences and all the publications, I took a
moment to breathe and just do things
(11:48):
that I have never given myself the freedom and the
opportunity to do and see what I learned from that
instead? And so moved to a city.
I joined an arts club. I've started
doing yoga and all of these other fun
physical activities, and I've started travelling more.
And what I've really learned is that education
lives everywhere. It's in everything that we do.
(12:11):
And I've had so many
wonderful, lovely conversations with people.
And I've gotten to share my research in ways that, yeah,
they're not so academic, necessarily,
but they are as meaningful, if not more so,
because I'm interacting with people who maybe otherwise
wouldn't have access to my work.
(12:32):
And so not only has it been really fulfilling
personally, but also I think it's had value in a
different way.
>> Dr. Alicia David (12:39):
Oh, uh, yes, absolutely.
And I want to hear a little bit more of the Year of Joy, because what
I'm experiencing, I compare it kind of to a
juggling act. Right. Like, so, for me, there's work,
there's my studies and there's my family, and
I feel I can only juggle two at a time. But
I have three balls. And I have not figured out how
to juggle that successfully. So that Year of Joy
(13:00):
sounds like there's some wisdom in
that. And I definitely think health is something I want to
prioritise. Starting two weeks from now.
It's no excuse not to go for that walk or to
go find people.
And you also mentioned informal,
um, networks. Right. You now informally talk
about your work, and I think there's something to that.
(13:21):
And maybe you can tell a little bit about your experience
going to Amsterdam and the people you met there.
>> Helena Prins (13:27):
Yeah, I had this lovely experience.
Um, I went to
the Netherlands and I was in Amsterdam for my birthday and I was going
to be there alone. And so the only thing I
booked proactively was this very fancy restaurant
that had lots of great reviews and I booked a
table. So I walk in on my birthday evening
(13:47):
and they only have tables for four. And I am a party of
one. So I sit down at my reserved table, and
just as I do, I can overhear this
conversation happening with the maitre d of
these three people looking for a table because they do
walk ins on occasion. And the maitre d says to
them, we only do walk ins for parties of four. And
actually we've closed walk ins anyway, so it doesn't matter.
(14:11):
So I ran up to the maitre d and I said, if I
find those women, can I invite them to sit
at my table? Because I have three other seats. And so I.
>> Dr. Alicia David (14:19):
Such a leisure thing to do,
like.
>> Helena Prins (14:22):
A totally insane person, go running down
the street of Amsterdam and say, hey, I
have this table. Uh, there are three
other seats if you'd like to come. And,
uh, the two. There were three women. One was
more proficient in English. And between my very
broken Spanish and her much more proficient
English, she was able to communicate to the group. And after
(14:45):
some, a little bit of hesitancy, rightfully so,
they came and joined me for dinner. And
we had the most lovely conversation.
But it ended up being that they were
from an area in Spain and what kind of
cultivated these yearly trips in their little trio
was losing their homes. And so we
(15:06):
had this wonderful conversation about all
of my work and about navigating all of that
grief and that loss and also the celebrations
of it. And I thought, uh, this
is as meaningful, if not more meaningful to me
than writing all of this work in some sort of
lock and key publication. And
(15:26):
I feel like I'm getting to use what I have
done. I've getting to use all of my education in
this really lovely, amazing way. And so, yes,
remarkable, serendipitous coincidence.
But also it speaks to the real value
of when you learn something. Like we learn things to
share and we can share in all kinds of ways.
>> Dr. Alicia David (15:48):
Absolutely. That is just. Yeah, the serendipity of that
is just so powerful. But I do think that something
that I've seen you do is you say yes, right? You say yes
for opportunity. And you go outside of your comfort
zone. And very often you talk about these things and
make me cry with your stories. And that does make me think
about how we have embraced vulnerability.
(16:08):
Right. Like that idea of you're doing, you're going to sit
alone in a restaurant in a foreign country. There's something
vulnerable about that, but also. Also very
courageous. And I know that. Um,
so Brene Brown did that TED Talk, right? And the power of
vulnerability. And I continue to have to remind
myself that there's Strength in vulnerability. But
you've also considered that one of your superpowers, right?
>> Helena Prins (16:30):
Yeah, I say it's a superpower, but, you know,
it's something that you identify in me, but something that I
identify in you equally because it
takes a lot of courage. I mean, I spoke to your group,
group, and I could have never spoken to anyone again.
Right. But you and your dorm girls
reached out, and then we were able to kind of maintain
(16:50):
this lovely relationship that
I think there was this kind of
misperception initially that I was helping
you. Right. I was giving you all of the things. But
actually what ended up happening is that I was able
to see my journey as valuable through that, um,
that support. Right. And every single time
I met with you all, uh, I would leave thinking,
(17:13):
okay, maybe I do know. Maybe I do know what I'm doing.
1. But also, again, it speaks to that
purpose. Right. Maybe if I do nothing else with this,
this is what the valuable thing is. And I
really think that vulnerability cultivates that
ability to find opportunity in maybe non
conventional, uh, spaces.
>> Dr. Alicia David (17:34):
Absolutely. I think I'm still trying to learn
that lesson. Um, even yesterday when I got
emotional and red in the face, I felt so embarrassed.
And then you get the feedback that it shows compassion. But I
am sometimes worried that that stands in the way of the real
message. So I'm still working my way through that. But
I value when I see other people, um, embracing
(17:55):
that vulnerability. And it seems to be
a characteristic that we mostly,
um, maybe align with women would. Right.
Like, as women, when we cry, we think it's weak. And
now we start to see that that comes out as
a strength as well.
So, um, yeah, I don't know if
there's anything that is coming next
(18:16):
for you that you want to share. Like what
after this year of joy, where are you in this
year of joy and what comes next? What
comes after joy?
>> Helena Prins (18:27):
I think you, uh, know, I'm not sure.
And I think for the first time, this is kind
of okay with me. You know, I think
that formal education is done for me. I think
I'm probably not going to pursue any more formal
credentials, but I think I'm a lot more
open to
(18:47):
seeing where it goes. I know now
that I think I've always known that accessibility
and education is really important to me and people
having access. And so really anything that I do
will be really kind
of tethered to that. How many people can access
this thing? And so podcasts and other
(19:08):
means are great for that. But, uh,
I think what's much More interesting is what are
you feeling like right now? Because you are where
I was and you are getting ready to
defend.
>> Dr. Alicia David (19:20):
And so, yeah, I'm
curious sometimes what, what
the next step might be. And you know someone,
um, yesterday, the keynote
at the conference, Melanie Hamilton, she's very involved in
sotl. I think she's the president of isotl. But she
was talking about how her doctorate
(19:40):
opened invisible doors, things that she
didn't anticipate. And that's kind of exciting
because I didn't pursue this to necessarily
get promotions at my workplace. I'm really quite
content with where that's at. And I think it's this
lifelong learning, self directed learner in me
that pursued this challenge. And I sometimes
(20:00):
compare it to when you, um, prepare
for a marathon. Like, why would anyone want to run a
marathon? Right? Why would anyone want to do this
thing? And in South Africa, where I'm from, there's actually
the Comrades, which is an ultra marathon. So it's not
even 42K. It's like I think 89,
87 nightmares. But you know
(20:21):
what? Um, I compare this journey of that and some
people, they do that. And my sister's one of,
uh, them who did the marathon. She said before she turns
50, she wants to run a marathon. She
was never very active before and you know, she did
it Covid hit, so she had to do it before she turned 51
because she didn't want to run any marathon. She wanted to run
(20:42):
the Paris marathon and was cancelled originally
because of COVID So she did that and she's never
ever run a marathon again. So when I hear you say
you're not going to do any formal credentials again, that's kind of
how I see myself. I wanted to test
myself and push myself. And right now I
feel quite accomplished. I want to say that modesty, but, you know,
(21:02):
you feel I see the finish line like that
marathon. I'm crawling to the finish line, if I'm
honest. But you know what? Once I'm
there, I feel like I can check that box.
And it's been a wonderful journey, but not
necessarily one I want to return. But like you, I really
hope I can have opportunity to pay
it forward because you have really helped.
(21:25):
Our little group was mentoring us. So
I think mentorship is something that's very attractive to
me. I, I have to say I like informal
mentorships.
So I'm curious if there's been a mentor in your,
in your life that you're thinking about right now, in
this moment, as we talk as women in Education.
Does someone come to mind for you?
>> Helena Prins (21:45):
You know, speaking of getting tearful,
for me, I. I've
had so many lovely, wonderful women in my life. But when
I think about, uh, why
I wrote my doctorate, why I
wrote it specifically the way that I did,
um, why I feel always
compelled to help other women and
(22:08):
find other women, it really goes back to my nan and
my mom because I think
while they were not able to pursue formal
credentials, uh, for various
life reasons, I feel like, like all of
my growth is an extension of their growth. And
so, you know, what a beautiful thing to be
able to continue growing and to
(22:30):
do that for all of the women that couldn't
in my life. Because I think
this resonates with so many women, right,
that we were, uh, actively
barred from spaces. And so to be able to find
them and not only find them, but also
flourish and help other people, I
(22:51):
mean, what an amazing thing, right? To take
soil that was not nourished and make it
better for everybody else that comes after.
And so that really is the thing
that kind of has kept me going. But I
mean, I would be remiss if I didn't say, you know, my supervisor,
Dr. Janet Gruen, she was amazing. You know, all of these
(23:13):
wonderful people in my life, um,
that really, I think share that mission
as women and kind of
keep, keep us all moving forward. And what an amazing
thing that's so powerful.
>> Dr. Alicia David (23:27):
My mom too was a single mom and she was a teacher
her whole life. And when I wrote my letter of
intent, I already said, really? This is inspired by my mother.
But when I think about a current mentor for me as
my, my boss at work, I call her the
glitter glue that keeps our team together
because she brings fun to.
(23:48):
We do. And right now, post secondary education
is not always fun. There are so many
challenges, there's so many financial constraints
and to have someone that has so much
empathy, energy and just a
real. She brings the bling to education.
Tracy Roberts, Director of Teaching and Learning at
(24:08):
BC Campus I just really value her leadership so
much. And when you just use the word flourish, it made
me think of the book, the most recent book I
probably read because I don't have time to read a lot, but
it's this one. The Serviceberry by Robin Wall
kimmerer. She also wrote Braiding Sweetgrass. That
was kind of part of a reading and she,
(24:29):
um.
The whole theme here, and this is my theme for the year
actually is all flourishing is mutual.
And I just think that really is.
That's kind of what we are experiencing when we talk. I
always feel encouraged afterwards. And I think, like,
I'm actually flourishing more than I knew.
Like, you know, and I feel like you're helping me, um,
(24:51):
soil and nurture my m. The work that I'm
doing by feeding into my soul and
encouraging me. And I think for all women out there,
that is probably what we have to remember. Like, this
doesn't have to be a journey in isolation.
>> Helena Prins (25:05):
Uh, yes.
>> Dr. Alicia David (25:06):
When we work together, all flourishing is mutual. And
if I think about my own family system, you know, I have two
younger daughters, they're teenagers, and I'm hoping that
I model for them. Them that hard
work has rewards, but
if I am not taking care of myself, you know,
they suffer. So that, to me, is also the
(25:26):
idea of all flourishing
is mutual. Yeah. Do you
do that? Do you do, like, a theme of the year? Like, you have your year
of joy. What do you think your next year might be?
>> Helena Prins (25:38):
Who knows? Maybe it'll be my year of sleep.
Just kidding. I don't know
what's. I don't really know what's next, but I do
think that, like, a big part of
where I want to go is
helping other women find,
you know, strength or find that
(26:00):
tenacity to keep moving forward when it feels
really hard. And so is there any time for
you specifically that felt really, really
daunting? And is there anything specifically that helped you find
that strength to keep going?
>> Dr. Alicia David (26:13):
Well, I do think strength in numbers. Right?
Like, especially with the journey. Like,
there's been times specific. Last January,
um, one of the dorm girls lost her husband
very suddenly. And that kind of made us
just stop for a moment. And I was
thinking, why am I spending all my time on learning when I should be
spending it with the people I love? But, you
(26:36):
know, this. My colleague who has lost
her, uh, um, husband. She is thriving in this programme and
I think it is the support that we are giving each
other because I'm inspired by how she's navigating
through her grief and her learning. Um, and
at work, I'm also part of a tremendous team.
We celebrate each other's successes and that's something,
again, um, that I hope we can continue to
(26:59):
do too. And what's so rare about my mentor,
Tracy, that I just mentioned, she is not
threatened by our success. You know, she is the leader
of five very strong women.
We are all in post secondary, trying to
prove ourselves, make our, uh, mark. And she's not
worried that we're going to outshine her. The more we
(27:19):
do, the better she feels too, you know, like when we do well, uh,
she feels. Feels great. And I think that's rare too.
So I'm hoping that I can shine
a light on others who are doing good work.
I think that's, um. And by giving people
positive feedback, right, when you sit in a
presentation that you see, someone's brought their
whole selves into, um, to give them
(27:41):
positive feedback. So that's one way, I think, when
people speak into my efforts, when they recognise
and validate that they can see I'm working hard,
that that gives me energy to keep
moving forward. So I wonder, I would
guess a next step other than sleep for you
and me is probably finding those informal
(28:02):
networks and those places where we can,
um, shine light on the good work that people are
doing. Right. You said maybe you want to do your own podcast.
I don't know if that's in my future, but my
research has recently been on sessional instructors and
their professional development experiences. And they are
really a, uh, cohort in post second that's
(28:22):
struggling with precarious employment. So I
feel while I can't solve a situation for each of them and I
can't really change their
employment, I can share their stories,
use my provincial platform to do so.
So that's something that makes me think now, just
on that what we choose to spend our time with
(28:43):
is also political choice. Right?
We can.
>> Helena Prins (28:47):
And it. You can choose to strengthen or weaken the
space that way. Right? Like, if you are.
I was thinking about. You're talking about Tracy. It's like
she could as easily make the choice
to be siloed and to be interested in
pursuit of self rather than bringing
everybody up with her. Um,
but there's a real value in seeing
(29:10):
other people struggle and helping them, but also
seeing other people just knock it out of the park and just be there
to, like, cheer them on. And I think when you're
cultivating a sense of strength through
those times that you feel vulnerable and you feel like an
imposter, you know, looking to other people to help
lift you up, it feels so hard, but it is the
easiest way forward.
(29:33):
Um, and we need to do more of that,
right?
>> Dr. Alicia David (29:37):
Um, yeah. I've often said in my life,
and I know it sounds strange, but it feels like when
I'm sad, there's always people around me
to support me. It's when I succeed
that you sometimes look and think, where are the
people to celebrate your success? And I've now,
in the last few, um, years of my
(29:57):
life, definitely I found people who are willing to
celebrate my success. But I Have certainly been
with managers who were not
necessarily as excited when you start to shine and
felt maybe threatened. So when you see people who are not
like that, that's something to not take for granted,
but to really, um. Yeah,
just to celebrate and to give that
(30:20):
feedback when someone is one of those leaders in your life,
to thank them for that totally.
>> Helena Prins (30:25):
You know, it's funny because we have the opposite experience this
way. I feel like when I'm celebrating something,
I find it much more easy to call people
in than when I'm struggling with something. And
so for me, the real resistance mechanism
is, like, when I'm feeling my worst, just
acknowledging that, like, okay, if I just open
(30:46):
up to people about this, it will actually make
me feel better. But it's such a,
um, you know, a pursuit of almost like,
sort of fake confidence. Because I never feel.
And we've had this conversation before where you say, oh, what
makes you interested in being vulnerable? Or.
Or things like this? It does not come naturally. I don't
(31:06):
want anybody to think that it does. Was. It's just,
um. I often think about my students and how
they are so willing often to reach out to
me for support or they will ask. And I think, wow, what
a courageous act to be struggling with something
and to email your instructor
for support. And so if they can do that,
(31:28):
then I need to find the ability to do that also
in different spaces of my life. Um,
so that I'm not just struggling in silence.
Um, but as a result of that, you know, my
whole educational experience has changed.
And I'm really curious to ask you,
you know, if you thought about your life
(31:49):
as someone who would be in education,
maybe right when you started your first credential versus
right when you were starting your doctorate. How has that
changed? Like, what does. How does that look different
for you, or does it.
>> Dr. Alicia David (32:03):
Well, I, uh, think change
happens so gradually that
it's probably difficult to
pinpoint something. But I can tell you that I
am much more confident in my
decisions now because some of
it's more informed by theory or
evidence, you know, um, but I feel
(32:26):
I show up with more confidence and authenticity
in rooms. Um, m.
Just maybe because of that secret feelings of accomplishment
along the way. And because I would
say through all my educational journeys I've met,
my circle has grown, like, more people around me.
So I don't feel like I'm alone in this journey.
(32:47):
So it's probably a very gradual
change. But I also think the more I learn, the
more I know that I don't know things
100% uh, uh, it's not like I
feel I'm two weeks from now is maybe an oral defence,
but that's not a destination. That's maybe the
finish line of this marathon, but it doesn't
really feel like it's an end. I see
(33:10):
that more. It's that hike through the mountains that
just keeps curving and the peaks just keep getting
higher in front of you and out of reach. But in a good
way, perhaps. Right.
>> Helena Prins (33:20):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Alicia David (33:21):
How about you? Could you notice, is
there a pivotal moment of change, or do you also see this
as a, uh, gradual transformation?
>> Helena Prins (33:29):
I mean, I definitely think doing my doctorate was
the, the sharpest change for me in
terms of what I've experienced as a person. But really, I
think probably from the beginning I was really called
by credential. And I think that was a
mechanism sort of of, uh, trying to
maintain my own insecurity, not, not
realising it. But I would think, you know, if I could just
(33:52):
get this behind my name, then I'll feel. Feel
like not an imposter in a room. Then I'll feel
like I can contribute to these conversations if
finally I have this thing right.
Um, and so I think I was really motivated by that
a lot, especially as a person who worked in post
secondary before getting my master's
and my doctorate. I think, like, I was really feeling
(34:14):
this intensity of pressure to, like, kind of keep
up, so to speak. Um, but then, yeah,
there was a point in my doctorate where I thought, thought,
oh, this isn't about the credential at all.
Like, this is about the journey, really.
It's about learning things about myself
and learning things about others and
using that, learning to
(34:37):
kind of keep pushing forward and keep
allowing myself to find space
in spaces that make me feel a little uncomfortable
and that there's actually really good,
uh, a growth in that kind of discomfort,
which I think is amazing. But something that you've talked
about before, which I really love, is
(34:59):
it becomes this really important question of
what your why is.
>> Dr. Alicia David (35:04):
Yes.
>> Helena Prins (35:04):
And. And the doctorate was really hard because,
you know, it's so long and so, you know, arduous
for so many reasons that a credential,
like being able to call yourself doctor is not
going to be enough to get you through. Just like being able to
say you have an undergraduate degr degree or a master's is not
going to be enough to get you through. And so you have to really
(35:25):
figure out, like, what that thing is.
And for me, I mean, obviously it was motivated
a lot by trying to find space
that made me feel Comfortable. And I think I,
moving forward, will always be in that frame of
mind of like, okay, how do I find my people? How do I find
spaces? How do I feel a home in
(35:45):
academics that feels comfortable for me.
Me.
>> Dr. Alicia David (35:49):
Yeah. Uh, so if I'm honest, I
always say, oh, you know, there's
this love of learning that motivated me to pursue
this journey. But I do think there was a bit of a
chip on my shoulder around obtaining a
Canadian credential because my credentials are not
from Canada. So I wonder, do you think that,
(36:09):
um, in Canada
or wherever people are studying, do
you think there's still a discrepancy between men and women in
terms of the credentials and the, uh, how we show up
in the room? Or do you think the needle has shifted quite a bit?
>> Helena Prins (36:25):
You know, I think about this all the time,
and I don't know that it's so much
that people value the credentials of men
more, but I think that men are allowed
more space or more freedom to
be confident about things they do not have
credentials in, you know, and,
(36:47):
and that's not to say that they're not knowledgeable. It's not to say
that they can't bring value to a space. But
I really feel like
I, uh, have, uh, maybe an insecurity or a chip on my
shoulder, you know, just as you said about
making sure I can back up
whatever I'm saying with these formal credentials,
(37:07):
even though my own lived experience, my
own view of the world is still valuable,
but I see that as fundamentally less
valuable than the formal credentials, or I should say,
I previously saw that as
fundamentally more valuable, and now I'm seeing it
kind of more as a package deal where my
lived experience with my credentials
(37:29):
really allows me to show up meaningfully.
But I wish I could have the confidence
to be able to speak on things that I don't have formal
credentials in, in the way that some,
some male counterparts do. And I mean, of course I can't speak for all
men, but it feels like they're having an easier time.
>> Dr. Alicia David (37:46):
Time. Oh, uh, yeah. Ah, that is so funny, but I think we
should just stick to our lanes. Um, but
yeah, I, I, I hear you. And that can be very
discouraging at times that you. But I, I
feel like I see a shift happening.
I see there's more women in leadership in post
secondary in B.C. than ever before. I, you
(38:06):
know, new president at this institution. Female new
in, new head of
education. They're female. And that excites me to
see that women are carving our
path out. And I Think our style of leadership is
also often more collaborative.
Again, we can't speak for all, but I think there's more
(38:26):
transparency, more leadership. Again, at
BC Campus, we have, um, both our Ed
and my direct M leader. Very
transparent in the leadership, very collaborative, very
authentic. Um, always, always open
for conversation around decisions, which I
don't think that that's always the
model of the past in post secondary,
(38:49):
specifically. Um, so, yeah,
we should probably wrap up soon.
Alicia, is there anything that you think
you want to leave me with
for the next stage that we're going into? Um,
some advice, something that you think is pivotal
to remember?
>> Helena Prins (39:08):
I mean, I think something that really came through
in this whole conversation today is that
education is hard, and that
path feels exceptionally hard if you're a
woman and you're juggling all these different things and
all of the societal pressure. And
we often think that the way to alleviate that
(39:29):
tension is to exist in the spaces as they have always
existed, but the. They're not made for us. And so
actually the way to alleviate that tension is to
find other women, allow yourself to be
loved for, loved, uh, by and cared for
by them, and give all of that
love and care back. And together we all
(39:50):
thrive.
>> Dr. Alicia David (39:51):
I love that. I really do. And I think
if there's anything I. I'm thinking
for then the next while is to, to
find maybe learning and surprise
places to be more reflexive now. Right.
We've been so much in the doing. So
maybe the next year for me is about
reflecting. Um, and maybe
(40:13):
that's reflecting on the why,
and that's maybe something that we can invite our listeners to
do too, like what is our why, what's our purpose?
Because if we are grounded in that, I think
we make decisions that's not just emotional
that we sometimes get accused of, but we make
decisions that align with our values. Because we didn't really talk
(40:33):
a lot about values today. But that is also something that
drives me. And when I'm not in alignment with
my values, things
get messy and mucky and I'm not clear and I
struggle writing. So I think the next year
is maybe for me, a year of reflection. So I've just
come up with a nice name. It's not a Year of Joy,
(40:54):
but something like that. And I just want to thank you for being
on my journey with me, Alicia.
It's been wonderful to just, um, connect with you
and talk around, uh, these things, things that keep our
brains turning all the time.
>> Helena Prins (41:07):
Yeah. And there's more journey to come, so thanks for having this
conversation.
>> Andrew Jacobs (41:10):
We thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Both
of our guests have vast knowledge on this topic and left us
with some great tips. We're always keen to
hear the thoughts of our listeners, so please do let us know
what you thought about this episode. A huge thank you
to both Alicia and Helena for their time and you'll find
all their details, along with links to the subjects they
(41:31):
spoke about in the show Notes Notes
In July, we'll be planning the next block of episodes we want
to record, and if you would like to be a future
guest, please do get in touch.
Details, as always, are in the show notes.
We'll be back in a couple of weeks and next time it's
the patriarchy one. As always,
(41:51):
thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon.
>> Helena Prins (41:58):
Sam.
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the
Education One of the Women Talking About Learning podcast. I'm
Andrew Jacobs. This episode is unusual in the fact
that both of our guests knew each other and came to us
to ask if they could record this topic by themselves
and of course we said yes. Both of our guests are
from Canada and they share their experiences in
(00:32):
education. Our first guest is Dr. Alicia
David. Alesha is an educator, researcher,
uh, and lifelong lover of a good story.
Over the past 15 years she's worked across a range of
educational settings from educational assisting
to classroom teaching and now serves as a full time
post secondary instructor. Much of her learning and life
(00:52):
has been shaped by the people of Treaty 8 territory in
Alberta, Canada, the ancestral and traditional
lands of the Cree, Dene and Metis. Having called
this beautiful region home for many years, she's deeply
impacted by its ongoing destruction which has
inspired her research into disaster induced loss
and its implications for education and adult learners.
(01:12):
Our next guest is Helena Prins. Helena is an
advisor of learning and teaching at British Columbia campus
where she coordinates the Facilitating Learning online
portfolio. She began her career as
a high school teacher in South Africa and over the past
20 years she's taught students of all ages and stages
on four continents. A golden thread
(01:33):
throughout her career has been breaking down barriers to learning.
Prior to joining BC campus in 2020,
she worked as a career learning and development advisor at
Royal Rhodes University. As an immigrant and
now Canadian citizen, she continues to value the
opportunity to support all students, especially international,
in finding and building their career path in Canada.
(01:54):
Recorded in May 2025. This
is a really engaging conversation, so settle
back and enjoy. This is women talking about
learning. This is Alicia and Helena
talking about education.
>> Dr. Alicia David (02:08):
Hello Alicia, how are you this morning?
>> Helena Prins (02:11):
Hello, lovely. Wonderful here
in uh, Northern Alberta.
So the weather is nice, it's getting spring. I'm very
excited.
>> Dr. Alicia David (02:21):
Yes, I'm definitely more of a spring summer lady
myself. Um, but I am coming this
morning a little bit tired, I have to be honest. I did
my first presentation ever on
my research publicly yesterday and you can
imagine just the imposter syndrome
that goes with it and showing up in a room
(02:41):
thinking, will anyone show up for this
presentation? And you know, I had a full room
and while I did get a little bit emotional talking about the
research and the participants and their stories,
it landed and I got some m good feedback
and now I have about two weeks to
prepare for my doctoral defence.
(03:01):
But you've been through this, right? So maybe today,
uh, that's something, uh, that we'll touch on.
Why do you want to talk about education today?
>> Helena Prins (03:08):
100%. Well, exactly the reasons that you
were talking about, you know, going through all of my education,
I felt like I didn't belong there the
entire time. And it really was
not until I found community in the space that I
started feeling like, okay, maybe this doesn't feel
like it was made for me, but I can make
(03:29):
it my own if I find the right people. And you are one of
those people. And I feel. Yeah. So
fortunate. And so hopefully
anybody listening will feel at
home with us, uh, and if not, they'll feel
motivated to find their own communities after today.
>> Dr. Alicia David (03:45):
So. Yeah, it's kind of ironic that you said they'll feel
at home with us because that was part of your
defence title, wasn't it? Your dissertation was
about home loss. And when I first
met you and heard your story, I think
your educational story is really one of
loss, but in the end also resilience. So.
(04:06):
Wow, I just want to kind of hear that again how
you went through your educational journey, because
I found it so inspirational. And I
know as we continue to learn from each other,
there continues to be lessons from that as well.
>> Helena Prins (04:21):
Yeah, yeah. So
really, um, my education started
probably formally in the way that everybody else does. I was
desperate to find a job and just needed to do something that would
get me a job that I thought I'd be half decent
at. And so I started school to become an
elementary school teacher. But
during that undergraduate degree my, my hometown
(04:44):
of Slave Lake, Alberta burned down. Most of it
anyway. Um, and so I was
navigating loss as a student with very little support
because it was the first time that that
on that scale had happened in my province.
And so really post secondary institutions were
reeling just as we were as students.
(05:05):
And once I finished that credential, ah, I thought
never going to have to deal with that again until when I was doing my
Master's, I lost a second home in another fire in
20. Um,
yeah, yeah. And then. But you know, like you
said, there was this real beauty that came out
of it because I made it
(05:26):
my mission as an educator to really make
spaces that allowed for students
lives to be present because there was not
a lot of policy or practise. Uh,
certainly there are many amazing educators. But
something I found going through both of those experiences was
that I felt really alone and I didn't recognise that what I was
(05:47):
experiencing was loss or grief, which sounds silly
now obviously, um, but
it made me really consider how we bring our whole selves
into educational spaces and how we navigate
all the hard stuff that comes with life,
um, in those spaces. And that's really challenging.
And you. We have a very similar sort of.
(06:07):
Even though it's very different, but we've come to education
for sort of similar reasons.
>> Dr. Alicia David (06:11):
Yes, I think so. I mean, my story started
in South Africa and I did travel
abroad then thinking I will leave teaching because
I found it so overwhelming, ah, being a young teacher,
uh, in a difficult context. And then I just
fell in love with teaching again. When I had all these, I was
in Taiwan, I had this classroom with little human beings
(06:32):
in it. And that kind of drove me to my master's
degree in early childhood education because I thought
I need to, you know, I was a high school teacher and this is a
different, different game altogether, working with the
little ones. And then, yeah, now I'm in adult learning
and I'm. I find it for me, I think what
drives me is access. And it
was interesting in the way I really
(06:54):
resonate with you just now when you talk about feeling isolated.
When I came to the doctoral, um, journey,
it's a cohort model where I really found
people that's like minded and that's just
as passionate about education. And we formed, it was in
our cohort, uh, a group of four ladies, we call
ourselves the dorm girls because we lived in
(07:15):
the residence together for two years. And,
um, it was just so wonderful. And it still
is. That support, I think, is
almost more meaningful than whatever that credential
after our name will be. Right? Like just that
community of women supporting each other. And
we have this WhatsApp chat and if someone reached a
milestone, there's celebration. And that, to me is
(07:38):
important. And why this conversation is important
is women celebrating each other's success.
Because I think that is sometimes rare, right?
>> Helena Prins (07:47):
Uh, yeah, definitely. And you know, I also,
as you know, had this exact experience with these
lovely three women. We don't have
a fun name though, so maybe we need to come up with one after.
After the fact.
>> Dr. Alicia David (08:00):
Maybe a bit late for that.
>> Helena Prins (08:01):
Yeah, it's a little late, but anyway. Um,
but I felt really kind of
inspired by everyone's willingness to
be vulnerable about how challenging the
doctoral experience was for all of us. And that's something that I
hadn't had in my undergrad or my master's. I definitely
really resonate with having relationships with strong
(08:22):
women. I can point to a woman or
two, my undergrad and my master's,
that I'm still very close with and still good friends with.
But the intensity of doctoral studies was very
different. And just the sheer volume of
insecurity I felt during that experience was very different.
So having these women to call upon really,
(08:42):
um, became hugely significant. And as you
know, because this is how we met, it really inspired
me to be that for other people. And so
when I was asked to come and speak to your doctoral cohort for
the first time, I like, jumped on the opportunity because I
thought, well, if I can make even one person
feel less alone in this experience, that's what I'm going to
(09:03):
do. So that's how we interacted for the first
time.
>> Dr. Alicia David (09:06):
Yeah, I, uh, remember you've always
been very honest about that feeling of that you didn't think
you belong. And I don't know where that comes from for us.
But so for me, this idea of community,
collaboration and learning, um, supporting each other
really helps with that imposter syndrome, because it keeps
rearing its head. Right. It's not like you fix imposter
(09:28):
syndrome. Like, I had that severely yesterday,
waiting for people to show up for my presentation.
So I think while there's not a quick fix for it,
I think one way of mitigating imposter
syndrome is to find support from others
who are kind of navigating the same journey
in education.
Um, one of the things that I'm struggling with now, and
(09:49):
I think because you've been through it, you could maybe give some
input here, is that fatigue, that risk
of burnout. Um, you've given it your all and you
want to keep moving because the more you learn, the more you know
that you don't know everything. And also
just the idea of, um,
there's so much work to do. Right.
(10:10):
So much work to do to make it better for others. So
how did you recover after your
journey?
>> Helena Prins (10:16):
Oh, my goodness. So, you know, that's something that I
recognised in doing my research, that I was not
attending to all of the hard emotions that come
with. I mean, life generally,
but also, you know,
especially educational, formal educational settings.
Um, and so it really
(10:37):
took a lot of time. And as you know, I'm doing
a year of joy right now.
>> Dr. Alicia David (10:42):
And so tell me more how that's going for you,
Alicia.
>> Helena Prins (10:46):
It's going wonderfully. I love it, um, and
I'll tell you about it, but I
really felt all of this pressure and I think
a lot of people who are pursuing formal education feel
this way, where they. You feel like you need
to now do something with it. I've just worked my
little hiney off from the time that I
(11:06):
graduated high school. I did all of these credentials, I did
this Big research, which is so important to me.
And there was a real, um,
intense feeling that I needed to keep doing it, keep
publishing, keep going to conferences, keep sharing my work with
people in these really rigid, informal spaces.
I also knew that my health was being gravely
(11:26):
impacted by the constant work and the
constant emotional toll of
navigating a hard space, really.
And I thought, okay, well, what would it look like if I did
something radically different with my year after
doctoral completion? What if instead of doing all
of the conferences and all the publications, I took a
moment to breathe and just do things
(11:48):
that I have never given myself the freedom and the
opportunity to do and see what I learned from that
instead? And so moved to a city.
I joined an arts club. I've started
doing yoga and all of these other fun
physical activities, and I've started travelling more.
And what I've really learned is that education
lives everywhere. It's in everything that we do.
(12:11):
And I've had so many
wonderful, lovely conversations with people.
And I've gotten to share my research in ways that, yeah,
they're not so academic, necessarily,
but they are as meaningful, if not more so,
because I'm interacting with people who maybe otherwise
wouldn't have access to my work.
(12:32):
And so not only has it been really fulfilling
personally, but also I think it's had value in a
different way.
>> Dr. Alicia David (12:39):
Oh, uh, yes, absolutely.
And I want to hear a little bit more of the Year of Joy, because what
I'm experiencing, I compare it kind of to a
juggling act. Right. Like, so, for me, there's work,
there's my studies and there's my family, and
I feel I can only juggle two at a time. But
I have three balls. And I have not figured out how
to juggle that successfully. So that Year of Joy
(13:00):
sounds like there's some wisdom in
that. And I definitely think health is something I want to
prioritise. Starting two weeks from now.
It's no excuse not to go for that walk or to
go find people.
And you also mentioned informal,
um, networks. Right. You now informally talk
about your work, and I think there's something to that.
(13:21):
And maybe you can tell a little bit about your experience
going to Amsterdam and the people you met there.
>> Helena Prins (13:27):
Yeah, I had this lovely experience.
Um, I went to
the Netherlands and I was in Amsterdam for my birthday and I was going
to be there alone. And so the only thing I
booked proactively was this very fancy restaurant
that had lots of great reviews and I booked a
table. So I walk in on my birthday evening
(13:47):
and they only have tables for four. And I am a party of
one. So I sit down at my reserved table, and
just as I do, I can overhear this
conversation happening with the maitre d of
these three people looking for a table because they do
walk ins on occasion. And the maitre d says to
them, we only do walk ins for parties of four. And
actually we've closed walk ins anyway, so it doesn't matter.
(14:11):
So I ran up to the maitre d and I said, if I
find those women, can I invite them to sit
at my table? Because I have three other seats. And so I.
>> Dr. Alicia David (14:19):
Such a leisure thing to do,
like.
>> Helena Prins (14:22):
A totally insane person, go running down
the street of Amsterdam and say, hey, I
have this table. Uh, there are three
other seats if you'd like to come. And,
uh, the two. There were three women. One was
more proficient in English. And between my very
broken Spanish and her much more proficient
English, she was able to communicate to the group. And after
(14:45):
some, a little bit of hesitancy, rightfully so,
they came and joined me for dinner. And
we had the most lovely conversation.
But it ended up being that they were
from an area in Spain and what kind of
cultivated these yearly trips in their little trio
was losing their homes. And so we
(15:06):
had this wonderful conversation about all
of my work and about navigating all of that
grief and that loss and also the celebrations
of it. And I thought, uh, this
is as meaningful, if not more meaningful to me
than writing all of this work in some sort of
lock and key publication. And
(15:26):
I feel like I'm getting to use what I have
done. I've getting to use all of my education in
this really lovely, amazing way. And so, yes,
remarkable, serendipitous coincidence.
But also it speaks to the real value
of when you learn something. Like we learn things to
share and we can share in all kinds of ways.
>> Dr. Alicia David (15:48):
Absolutely. That is just. Yeah, the serendipity of that
is just so powerful. But I do think that something
that I've seen you do is you say yes, right? You say yes
for opportunity. And you go outside of your comfort
zone. And very often you talk about these things and
make me cry with your stories. And that does make me think
about how we have embraced vulnerability.
(16:08):
Right. Like that idea of you're doing, you're going to sit
alone in a restaurant in a foreign country. There's something
vulnerable about that, but also. Also very
courageous. And I know that. Um,
so Brene Brown did that TED Talk, right? And the power of
vulnerability. And I continue to have to remind
myself that there's Strength in vulnerability. But
you've also considered that one of your superpowers, right?
>> Helena Prins (16:30):
Yeah, I say it's a superpower, but, you know,
it's something that you identify in me, but something that I
identify in you equally because it
takes a lot of courage. I mean, I spoke to your group,
group, and I could have never spoken to anyone again.
Right. But you and your dorm girls
reached out, and then we were able to kind of maintain
(16:50):
this lovely relationship that
I think there was this kind of
misperception initially that I was helping
you. Right. I was giving you all of the things. But
actually what ended up happening is that I was able
to see my journey as valuable through that, um,
that support. Right. And every single time
I met with you all, uh, I would leave thinking,
(17:13):
okay, maybe I do know. Maybe I do know what I'm doing.
1. But also, again, it speaks to that
purpose. Right. Maybe if I do nothing else with this,
this is what the valuable thing is. And I
really think that vulnerability cultivates that
ability to find opportunity in maybe non
conventional, uh, spaces.
>> Dr. Alicia David (17:34):
Absolutely. I think I'm still trying to learn
that lesson. Um, even yesterday when I got
emotional and red in the face, I felt so embarrassed.
And then you get the feedback that it shows compassion. But I
am sometimes worried that that stands in the way of the real
message. So I'm still working my way through that. But
I value when I see other people, um, embracing
(17:55):
that vulnerability. And it seems to be
a characteristic that we mostly,
um, maybe align with women would. Right.
Like, as women, when we cry, we think it's weak. And
now we start to see that that comes out as
a strength as well.
So, um, yeah, I don't know if
there's anything that is coming next
(18:16):
for you that you want to share. Like what
after this year of joy, where are you in this
year of joy and what comes next? What
comes after joy?
>> Helena Prins (18:27):
I think you, uh, know, I'm not sure.
And I think for the first time, this is kind
of okay with me. You know, I think
that formal education is done for me. I think
I'm probably not going to pursue any more formal
credentials, but I think I'm a lot more
open to
(18:47):
seeing where it goes. I know now
that I think I've always known that accessibility
and education is really important to me and people
having access. And so really anything that I do
will be really kind
of tethered to that. How many people can access
this thing? And so podcasts and other
(19:08):
means are great for that. But, uh,
I think what's much More interesting is what are
you feeling like right now? Because you are where
I was and you are getting ready to
defend.
>> Dr. Alicia David (19:20):
And so, yeah, I'm
curious sometimes what, what
the next step might be. And you know someone,
um, yesterday, the keynote
at the conference, Melanie Hamilton, she's very involved in
sotl. I think she's the president of isotl. But she
was talking about how her doctorate
(19:40):
opened invisible doors, things that she
didn't anticipate. And that's kind of exciting
because I didn't pursue this to necessarily
get promotions at my workplace. I'm really quite
content with where that's at. And I think it's this
lifelong learning, self directed learner in me
that pursued this challenge. And I sometimes
(20:00):
compare it to when you, um, prepare
for a marathon. Like, why would anyone want to run a
marathon? Right? Why would anyone want to do this
thing? And in South Africa, where I'm from, there's actually
the Comrades, which is an ultra marathon. So it's not
even 42K. It's like I think 89,
87 nightmares. But you know
(20:21):
what? Um, I compare this journey of that and some
people, they do that. And my sister's one of,
uh, them who did the marathon. She said before she turns
50, she wants to run a marathon. She
was never very active before and you know, she did
it Covid hit, so she had to do it before she turned 51
because she didn't want to run any marathon. She wanted to run
(20:42):
the Paris marathon and was cancelled originally
because of COVID So she did that and she's never
ever run a marathon again. So when I hear you say
you're not going to do any formal credentials again, that's kind of
how I see myself. I wanted to test
myself and push myself. And right now I
feel quite accomplished. I want to say that modesty, but, you know,
(21:02):
you feel I see the finish line like that
marathon. I'm crawling to the finish line, if I'm
honest. But you know what? Once I'm
there, I feel like I can check that box.
And it's been a wonderful journey, but not
necessarily one I want to return. But like you, I really
hope I can have opportunity to pay
it forward because you have really helped.
(21:25):
Our little group was mentoring us. So
I think mentorship is something that's very attractive to
me. I, I have to say I like informal
mentorships.
So I'm curious if there's been a mentor in your,
in your life that you're thinking about right now, in
this moment, as we talk as women in Education.
Does someone come to mind for you?
>> Helena Prins (21:45):
You know, speaking of getting tearful,
for me, I. I've
had so many lovely, wonderful women in my life. But when
I think about, uh, why
I wrote my doctorate, why I
wrote it specifically the way that I did,
um, why I feel always
compelled to help other women and
(22:08):
find other women, it really goes back to my nan and
my mom because I think
while they were not able to pursue formal
credentials, uh, for various
life reasons, I feel like, like all of
my growth is an extension of their growth. And
so, you know, what a beautiful thing to be
able to continue growing and to
(22:30):
do that for all of the women that couldn't
in my life. Because I think
this resonates with so many women, right,
that we were, uh, actively
barred from spaces. And so to be able to find
them and not only find them, but also
flourish and help other people, I
(22:51):
mean, what an amazing thing, right? To take
soil that was not nourished and make it
better for everybody else that comes after.
And so that really is the thing
that kind of has kept me going. But I
mean, I would be remiss if I didn't say, you know, my supervisor,
Dr. Janet Gruen, she was amazing. You know, all of these
(23:13):
wonderful people in my life, um,
that really, I think share that mission
as women and kind of
keep, keep us all moving forward. And what an amazing
thing that's so powerful.
>> Dr. Alicia David (23:27):
My mom too was a single mom and she was a teacher
her whole life. And when I wrote my letter of
intent, I already said, really? This is inspired by my mother.
But when I think about a current mentor for me as
my, my boss at work, I call her the
glitter glue that keeps our team together
because she brings fun to.
(23:48):
We do. And right now, post secondary education
is not always fun. There are so many
challenges, there's so many financial constraints
and to have someone that has so much
empathy, energy and just a
real. She brings the bling to education.
Tracy Roberts, Director of Teaching and Learning at
(24:08):
BC Campus I just really value her leadership so
much. And when you just use the word flourish, it made
me think of the book, the most recent book I
probably read because I don't have time to read a lot, but
it's this one. The Serviceberry by Robin Wall
kimmerer. She also wrote Braiding Sweetgrass. That
was kind of part of a reading and she,
(24:29):
um.
The whole theme here, and this is my theme for the year
actually is all flourishing is mutual.
And I just think that really is.
That's kind of what we are experiencing when we talk. I
always feel encouraged afterwards. And I think, like,
I'm actually flourishing more than I knew.
Like, you know, and I feel like you're helping me, um,
(24:51):
soil and nurture my m. The work that I'm
doing by feeding into my soul and
encouraging me. And I think for all women out there,
that is probably what we have to remember. Like, this
doesn't have to be a journey in isolation.
>> Helena Prins (25:05):
Uh, yes.
>> Dr. Alicia David (25:06):
When we work together, all flourishing is mutual. And
if I think about my own family system, you know, I have two
younger daughters, they're teenagers, and I'm hoping that
I model for them. Them that hard
work has rewards, but
if I am not taking care of myself, you know,
they suffer. So that, to me, is also the
(25:26):
idea of all flourishing
is mutual. Yeah. Do you
do that? Do you do, like, a theme of the year? Like, you have your year
of joy. What do you think your next year might be?
>> Helena Prins (25:38):
Who knows? Maybe it'll be my year of sleep.
Just kidding. I don't know
what's. I don't really know what's next, but I do
think that, like, a big part of
where I want to go is
helping other women find,
you know, strength or find that
(26:00):
tenacity to keep moving forward when it feels
really hard. And so is there any time for
you specifically that felt really, really
daunting? And is there anything specifically that helped you find
that strength to keep going?
>> Dr. Alicia David (26:13):
Well, I do think strength in numbers. Right?
Like, especially with the journey. Like,
there's been times specific. Last January,
um, one of the dorm girls lost her husband
very suddenly. And that kind of made us
just stop for a moment. And I was
thinking, why am I spending all my time on learning when I should be
spending it with the people I love? But, you
(26:36):
know, this. My colleague who has lost
her, uh, um, husband. She is thriving in this programme and
I think it is the support that we are giving each
other because I'm inspired by how she's navigating
through her grief and her learning. Um, and
at work, I'm also part of a tremendous team.
We celebrate each other's successes and that's something,
again, um, that I hope we can continue to
(26:59):
do too. And what's so rare about my mentor,
Tracy, that I just mentioned, she is not
threatened by our success. You know, she is the leader
of five very strong women.
We are all in post secondary, trying to
prove ourselves, make our, uh, mark. And she's not
worried that we're going to outshine her. The more we
(27:19):
do, the better she feels too, you know, like when we do well, uh,
she feels. Feels great. And I think that's rare too.
So I'm hoping that I can shine
a light on others who are doing good work.
I think that's, um. And by giving people
positive feedback, right, when you sit in a
presentation that you see, someone's brought their
whole selves into, um, to give them
(27:41):
positive feedback. So that's one way, I think, when
people speak into my efforts, when they recognise
and validate that they can see I'm working hard,
that that gives me energy to keep
moving forward. So I wonder, I would
guess a next step other than sleep for you
and me is probably finding those informal
(28:02):
networks and those places where we can,
um, shine light on the good work that people are
doing. Right. You said maybe you want to do your own podcast.
I don't know if that's in my future, but my
research has recently been on sessional instructors and
their professional development experiences. And they are
really a, uh, cohort in post second that's
(28:22):
struggling with precarious employment. So I
feel while I can't solve a situation for each of them and I
can't really change their
employment, I can share their stories,
use my provincial platform to do so.
So that's something that makes me think now, just
on that what we choose to spend our time with
(28:43):
is also political choice. Right?
We can.
>> Helena Prins (28:47):
And it. You can choose to strengthen or weaken the
space that way. Right? Like, if you are.
I was thinking about. You're talking about Tracy. It's like
she could as easily make the choice
to be siloed and to be interested in
pursuit of self rather than bringing
everybody up with her. Um,
but there's a real value in seeing
(29:10):
other people struggle and helping them, but also
seeing other people just knock it out of the park and just be there
to, like, cheer them on. And I think when you're
cultivating a sense of strength through
those times that you feel vulnerable and you feel like an
imposter, you know, looking to other people to help
lift you up, it feels so hard, but it is the
easiest way forward.
(29:33):
Um, and we need to do more of that,
right?
>> Dr. Alicia David (29:37):
Um, yeah. I've often said in my life,
and I know it sounds strange, but it feels like when
I'm sad, there's always people around me
to support me. It's when I succeed
that you sometimes look and think, where are the
people to celebrate your success? And I've now,
in the last few, um, years of my
(29:57):
life, definitely I found people who are willing to
celebrate my success. But I Have certainly been
with managers who were not
necessarily as excited when you start to shine and
felt maybe threatened. So when you see people who are not
like that, that's something to not take for granted,
but to really, um. Yeah,
just to celebrate and to give that
(30:20):
feedback when someone is one of those leaders in your life,
to thank them for that totally.
>> Helena Prins (30:25):
You know, it's funny because we have the opposite experience this
way. I feel like when I'm celebrating something,
I find it much more easy to call people
in than when I'm struggling with something. And
so for me, the real resistance mechanism
is, like, when I'm feeling my worst, just
acknowledging that, like, okay, if I just open
(30:46):
up to people about this, it will actually make
me feel better. But it's such a,
um, you know, a pursuit of almost like,
sort of fake confidence. Because I never feel.
And we've had this conversation before where you say, oh, what
makes you interested in being vulnerable? Or.
Or things like this? It does not come naturally. I don't
(31:06):
want anybody to think that it does. Was. It's just,
um. I often think about my students and how
they are so willing often to reach out to
me for support or they will ask. And I think, wow, what
a courageous act to be struggling with something
and to email your instructor
for support. And so if they can do that,
(31:28):
then I need to find the ability to do that also
in different spaces of my life. Um,
so that I'm not just struggling in silence.
Um, but as a result of that, you know, my
whole educational experience has changed.
And I'm really curious to ask you,
you know, if you thought about your life
(31:49):
as someone who would be in education,
maybe right when you started your first credential versus
right when you were starting your doctorate. How has that
changed? Like, what does. How does that look different
for you, or does it.
>> Dr. Alicia David (32:03):
Well, I, uh, think change
happens so gradually that
it's probably difficult to
pinpoint something. But I can tell you that I
am much more confident in my
decisions now because some of
it's more informed by theory or
evidence, you know, um, but I feel
(32:26):
I show up with more confidence and authenticity
in rooms. Um, m.
Just maybe because of that secret feelings of accomplishment
along the way. And because I would
say through all my educational journeys I've met,
my circle has grown, like, more people around me.
So I don't feel like I'm alone in this journey.
(32:47):
So it's probably a very gradual
change. But I also think the more I learn, the
more I know that I don't know things
100% uh, uh, it's not like I
feel I'm two weeks from now is maybe an oral defence,
but that's not a destination. That's maybe the
finish line of this marathon, but it doesn't
really feel like it's an end. I see
(33:10):
that more. It's that hike through the mountains that
just keeps curving and the peaks just keep getting
higher in front of you and out of reach. But in a good
way, perhaps. Right.
>> Helena Prins (33:20):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Alicia David (33:21):
How about you? Could you notice, is
there a pivotal moment of change, or do you also see this
as a, uh, gradual transformation?
>> Helena Prins (33:29):
I mean, I definitely think doing my doctorate was
the, the sharpest change for me in
terms of what I've experienced as a person. But really, I
think probably from the beginning I was really called
by credential. And I think that was a
mechanism sort of of, uh, trying to
maintain my own insecurity, not, not
realising it. But I would think, you know, if I could just
(33:52):
get this behind my name, then I'll feel. Feel
like not an imposter in a room. Then I'll feel
like I can contribute to these conversations if
finally I have this thing right.
Um, and so I think I was really motivated by that
a lot, especially as a person who worked in post
secondary before getting my master's
and my doctorate. I think, like, I was really feeling
(34:14):
this intensity of pressure to, like, kind of keep
up, so to speak. Um, but then, yeah,
there was a point in my doctorate where I thought, thought,
oh, this isn't about the credential at all.
Like, this is about the journey, really.
It's about learning things about myself
and learning things about others and
using that, learning to
(34:37):
kind of keep pushing forward and keep
allowing myself to find space
in spaces that make me feel a little uncomfortable
and that there's actually really good,
uh, a growth in that kind of discomfort,
which I think is amazing. But something that you've talked
about before, which I really love, is
(34:59):
it becomes this really important question of
what your why is.
>> Dr. Alicia David (35:04):
Yes.
>> Helena Prins (35:04):
And. And the doctorate was really hard because,
you know, it's so long and so, you know, arduous
for so many reasons that a credential,
like being able to call yourself doctor is not
going to be enough to get you through. Just like being able to
say you have an undergraduate degr degree or a master's is not
going to be enough to get you through. And so you have to really
(35:25):
figure out, like, what that thing is.
And for me, I mean, obviously it was motivated
a lot by trying to find space
that made me feel Comfortable. And I think I,
moving forward, will always be in that frame of
mind of like, okay, how do I find my people? How do I find
spaces? How do I feel a home in
(35:45):
academics that feels comfortable for me.
Me.
>> Dr. Alicia David (35:49):
Yeah. Uh, so if I'm honest, I
always say, oh, you know, there's
this love of learning that motivated me to pursue
this journey. But I do think there was a bit of a
chip on my shoulder around obtaining a
Canadian credential because my credentials are not
from Canada. So I wonder, do you think that,
(36:09):
um, in Canada
or wherever people are studying, do
you think there's still a discrepancy between men and women in
terms of the credentials and the, uh, how we show up
in the room? Or do you think the needle has shifted quite a bit?
>> Helena Prins (36:25):
You know, I think about this all the time,
and I don't know that it's so much
that people value the credentials of men
more, but I think that men are allowed
more space or more freedom to
be confident about things they do not have
credentials in, you know, and,
(36:47):
and that's not to say that they're not knowledgeable. It's not to say
that they can't bring value to a space. But
I really feel like
I, uh, have, uh, maybe an insecurity or a chip on my
shoulder, you know, just as you said about
making sure I can back up
whatever I'm saying with these formal credentials,
(37:07):
even though my own lived experience, my
own view of the world is still valuable,
but I see that as fundamentally less
valuable than the formal credentials, or I should say,
I previously saw that as
fundamentally more valuable, and now I'm seeing it
kind of more as a package deal where my
lived experience with my credentials
(37:29):
really allows me to show up meaningfully.
But I wish I could have the confidence
to be able to speak on things that I don't have formal
credentials in, in the way that some,
some male counterparts do. And I mean, of course I can't speak for all
men, but it feels like they're having an easier time.
>> Dr. Alicia David (37:46):
Time. Oh, uh, yeah. Ah, that is so funny, but I think we
should just stick to our lanes. Um, but
yeah, I, I, I hear you. And that can be very
discouraging at times that you. But I, I
feel like I see a shift happening.
I see there's more women in leadership in post
secondary in B.C. than ever before. I, you
(38:06):
know, new president at this institution. Female new
in, new head of
education. They're female. And that excites me to
see that women are carving our
path out. And I Think our style of leadership is
also often more collaborative.
Again, we can't speak for all, but I think there's more
(38:26):
transparency, more leadership. Again, at
BC Campus, we have, um, both our Ed
and my direct M leader. Very
transparent in the leadership, very collaborative, very
authentic. Um, always, always open
for conversation around decisions, which I
don't think that that's always the
model of the past in post secondary,
(38:49):
specifically. Um, so, yeah,
we should probably wrap up soon.
Alicia, is there anything that you think
you want to leave me with
for the next stage that we're going into? Um,
some advice, something that you think is pivotal
to remember?
>> Helena Prins (39:08):
I mean, I think something that really came through
in this whole conversation today is that
education is hard, and that
path feels exceptionally hard if you're a
woman and you're juggling all these different things and
all of the societal pressure. And
we often think that the way to alleviate that
(39:29):
tension is to exist in the spaces as they have always
existed, but the. They're not made for us. And so
actually the way to alleviate that tension is to
find other women, allow yourself to be
loved for, loved, uh, by and cared for
by them, and give all of that
love and care back. And together we all
(39:50):
thrive.
>> Dr. Alicia David (39:51):
I love that. I really do. And I think
if there's anything I. I'm thinking
for then the next while is to, to
find maybe learning and surprise
places to be more reflexive now. Right.
We've been so much in the doing. So
maybe the next year for me is about
reflecting. Um, and maybe
(40:13):
that's reflecting on the why,
and that's maybe something that we can invite our listeners to
do too, like what is our why, what's our purpose?
Because if we are grounded in that, I think
we make decisions that's not just emotional
that we sometimes get accused of, but we make
decisions that align with our values. Because we didn't really talk
(40:33):
a lot about values today. But that is also something that
drives me. And when I'm not in alignment with
my values, things
get messy and mucky and I'm not clear and I
struggle writing. So I think the next year
is maybe for me, a year of reflection. So I've just
come up with a nice name. It's not a Year of Joy,
(40:54):
but something like that. And I just want to thank you for being
on my journey with me, Alicia.
It's been wonderful to just, um, connect with you
and talk around, uh, these things, things that keep our
brains turning all the time.
>> Helena Prins (41:07):
Yeah. And there's more journey to come, so thanks for having this
conversation.
>> Andrew Jacobs (41:10):
We thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Both
of our guests have vast knowledge on this topic and left us
with some great tips. We're always keen to
hear the thoughts of our listeners, so please do let us know
what you thought about this episode. A huge thank you
to both Alicia and Helena for their time and you'll find
all their details, along with links to the subjects they
(41:31):
spoke about in the show Notes Notes
In July, we'll be planning the next block of episodes we want
to record, and if you would like to be a future
guest, please do get in touch.
Details, as always, are in the show notes.
We'll be back in a couple of weeks and next time it's
the patriarchy one. As always,
(41:51):
thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon.
>> Helena Prins (41:58):
Sam.
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