June 10, 2025 • 38 mins
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Episode Links:
Personal Boardroom – Who is in yours?
How to build a personal board for your career
Comparative Analysis of Trust in Online Communities
6 Tips To Build Trust In Your Online Community
How To Develop A Community Strategy
How to Create a Learning Culture: 18 Best Practices
Build a Strong Learning Culture on Your Team
Creating learning cultures: assessing the evidence
: State of the Global Workplace Report
GLDC (Global Learning and Development Community)
Example of Career Change as a Journey with a Clear Destination in Mind
Ep. 23: Efficiency vs. Effectiveness: Learning generosity in the L&D profession
Tayloring learning: generosity of the L&D community
The 10 Golden Rules of Building Communities That Matter
The Institute for Performance and Learning
The evolution of L&D: Strategies for success and impact | People Management
The evolution of learning and development
The evolution of L&D strategies examined
This week’s guests are Anita Gouveia. Anita is an organisational development and learning leader who's spent the last 20+ years helping people grow, le
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Andrew Jacobs (00:11):
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode the L and
D Community. One of the women Talking About Learning podcast.
I'm Andrew Jacobs. This topic has been on our
schedule for some time and it was great that we could finally get around to
recording it. The L and D community is known for
being one of the friendliest, warmest and supportive groups.
Um, and we really strongly encourage this. We
(00:32):
wanted to get some more views and opinions.
So with this in mind, with three wonderful guests chatting through
this topic, our first guest is Anita Gouvia.
Anita is an OD and learning leader who
spent the last 20 plus years helping people grow, lead
and making work better for people and people better at
work. She's led leadership programmes,
built practical and inclusive learning strategies and coached
(00:53):
teams across industries. Outside her day job,
she volunteers as chair of the Peel Horton chapter of
the Institute for Performance and Learning where she helps
connect and elevate L and D professionals.
She's also a fan of improv walks and a good
podcast. Our next guest is Sinead
Hennigan. Sinead has worked in senior roles with the
Learning and Development Institute in Ireland for many years.
(01:16):
In her role as CEO she leads the team to develop a
high value member offer uh and the Strategic alliance of the
IITD with all stakeholders. She
has vast experience with individuals, corporates, further and higher
education providers as well as state agencies and
has represented the industry in an influencing and advocacy
role for many years. On a
(01:36):
voluntary basis, Sinead strategically contributes to the work of Down
Syndrome island who she has represented and
advocated at ministerial level, led
fundraising campaigns delivering over
€200,000 and contributed to
doctoral research in the field of qualitative education
provision for learners with special needs.
Sinead sits on the GAA alliance to Council Games for
(01:57):
All committee where she's developed a framework for
GAA clubs to include children and teenagers
with additional needs in social and sporting
activities. Our final guest is
Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai.
Oyuindamola is a Digital Learning Strategist,
EdTech Career Coach, speaker and Entrepreneur with over 20
years of experience helping organisations and individuals
(02:19):
trans they learn and grow. A certified
Digital Learning Professional and Clinton Global Initiative
Fellow, Ayindamola, uh, founded the E Learning and
Instructional Designers Hub ELID to
mentor underrepresented professionals in edtech.
She's been recognised as a finalist in the Milton Keynes STEM
Awards and served on the Learning Network UK board
(02:40):
recorded in early May 2025.
This is Women talking about learning. This is
Anita Sinead Ono
Yindamola talking about L and D community.
>> Anita Gouvia (02:52):
Hello ladies. How Are you
today?
>> Sinead Hennigan (02:55):
I'm great. Um, it's
quite sunny outside. It's been a lovely
weather for some days now. It's amazing here.
Joining from the UK by the way.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (03:05):
And I am joining from Dublin
on uh, a, uh, holiday
weekend, so all is good here at our
side as well. The weather always
helps.
>> Anita Gouvia (03:17):
Sure does. I'm calling in from Toronto,
so on the other side of the world there it feels, but our weather
seems very similar.
Um, so what brought you guys here today to the L and D
community?
>> Sinead Hennigan (03:28):
1. My interest in the L and
D community has been
since when I was in a role
as an event designer then I wasn't part
of any community and I saw my,
um, colleagues moving faster. It was as
if there was a clique, they were getting these
(03:50):
jobs better than me. I just felt what's happening?
Then I realised that we're in a community where they were growing together,
learning things together. And then I realised that
the power of community and
that for me has been.
I've had that interest since then.
Now transitioning to tech as an L and D professional,
(04:11):
I've been part of some communities like the LND Shaker as
a learning network where last year I was part
of the board directors. The growth
that I experienced and uh,
the support, the connections, the network has
been amazing, which led me to
start my own community where I
(04:32):
help people from underrepresented background
transition to um,
tech, ed tech to be, to be
specific. So it's been amazing the impact that I
have experienced and the joy that I
have seen people being impacted. Being part of the community
has been amazing. And that's why when I saw
(04:53):
this, um, when I heard about the podcast,
about the community, when I knew I had to be on board and
I'm happy to be here to be with you ladies and to learn
from you and know about your experience as well.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (05:06):
Well, I think that's great because really ultimately
that's what it's about. You never stop learning. And
um, I've been in my role for
25 years, can you believe that? But it doesn't feel like
25 years because I think
learning, learning and development
particularly is something which is,
(05:27):
uh, evolving all the time and
it evolves as, as the world evolves and
business evolves and we. Such incredible
disruption in the world in the last 25 years. And I think
it's been very interesting, uh, in my role
to see how learning and development has evolved
with that and how learning and development
professionals have evolved with that as well.
(05:49):
And um, you know, I think it's
interesting because I had a particular
moment about seven or eight years ago
where I said, oh, God, I've stayed in this role too
long and should I move on?
Not because I wanted to move on. I
absolutely loved my role. I loved learning
and development, I loved working in this industry, I love the
(06:12):
people I work with. But I did wonder,
um, was it the best thing for the organisation
for me to continue to stay in the role, having been there
for so long. And I sought out the
advice of a, uh, really clever,
um, HR academic who
regularly appears on Thinkers 50 and all of that. And I said to
(06:33):
him, you know, I think I'm going to have to leave. I think I've, I've,
I've. I'm. I just don't know if I can,
if you can be effective, if you can stay in the same
role all your life. And he said to me,
you can stay in the same role all your life as long as you're
effective. And then I said to myself, how do you
know if you're effective?
And you know, and I think as long as you keep asking that
(06:56):
question, how do you know if you're effective? And
I decided at that point. Now, I had done a
Master's before, but I decided to
do an MBA because I thought it would be
a really good filter for me to expose
myself to new theories, new
thinking, but particularly to other
people who are in other contexts and other
(07:19):
organisations so that I could get the value of
peer learning. And almost all of those things
combined would be a, uh, filter for me to kind
of benchmark myself against what's happening in other
organisations and what are other senior leaders doing.
>> Anita Gouvia (07:34):
Sinead, you bring up something really important like
you reached out to someone in your community or someone you
trusted, right? And that's part of being a
community, right, that you can go to someone with questions, with
issues, with problems. And I had similar to that
where I was kind of questioning like, is this still what I want to do?
Like, am m I in the right place, doing the right thing?
And I too reached out to my community of network
(07:57):
individuals, um, and I think that's
the power where you can get insight. And isn't that what
community does is not only people who think
like us, because that's not what we want necessarily, but
someone who understands what we're going through the field, the
world, you know, like, so nice to be able to talk to someone
who gets it right where we don't need to explain it.
(08:18):
So I think one
of the first places where I experienced, um, Community.
And it's, uh. This is where you're working well,
though, on the other side of the world is the Institute for
Performance and Learning. It's the association here in Canada
for professionals. And that was, you know, over 20
years ago when I first, um, you
(08:38):
know, connected with them. And it's like, you know,
Ondemola, that's like you, right? It's like
I'm alone here at work. I'm the only one in L
and D, so I'm expected to be the subject matter expert,
but who do I go to for questions, for
advice, for help, you know,
um, so I connected with the association and
(08:58):
I've been a part of them since. But they were my first
community where I can reach out to a side of the
organisation.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (09:08):
I think it's important as well to
be constantly reflecting and to try
and understand what is the
most beneficial and appropriate
intervention at different times. So
sometimes it is mentoring and
sometimes it's education and
sometimes it's, it's conversation.
(09:30):
And I think you learn. There's a, you know, all of
these different opportunities are learning
opportunities. And it's just
important to be continuously asking yourself, what
do I need? What do I need now at this particular
point?
>> Sinead Hennigan (09:47):
Yeah, um, talking
about the power of, um, community,
where you have to differentiate between community and
network. I would say
being part of a community based on my own experience
has been very, very useful for
me and it's been quite, very, very impactive.
(10:07):
I started my own
business as a freelancer recently, uh, well,
a little over a year now. And just like,
um, Anita mentioned, there, uh, are times that you, you're just
alone, working alone, and you're wondering, how do I start?
How do I. How am I sure that the
SOP that I have is standard? How do I know
(10:28):
that the contract that I have is the right one? And
being part of different L and D communities has, uh,
helped me a great deal. So just pop in a question in
that, in the chat and some. And you get different
opinions, you get different, um,
um, documents being sent to you and it just
helps you feel confident. There have been situations where
(10:48):
I needed to be sure about the price that I was quoting for,
you know, a gig. And, you know, just putting in
that, that message in the chat helped me a great deal.
So being part of a community, I would say, is,
um, a very, very
useful one. It's, it's really great. It makes you feel like you're
part of a family. It helps you grow faster.
(11:11):
You are, uh, you know, you're not alone. Even though you're
alone, you're not alone, you feel that support. You're able to have
access to resources, encouragement at times.
I've been in the. A community which
is called Women in, where one of the
members who is a coach just put in a message one day and said,
um, I'm a coach and I have free slots for anyone that needs
(11:32):
someone to talk to. Imagine how
useful that is. So being part of a community is like
being part of a family and not just in a
network where you don't. You can't really reach out to
people. So it's. It's been really amazing for me.
What, what about you ladies? Has it been?
>> Anita Gouvia (11:50):
I mean, I love what you said there too. Um,
especially about resources, like, you go into the community and
then that's, I think, you know, that nuance there with networking,
where you're there, just, you know, get to know people, community
is deeper, right? Like, there's more of a connection that
you establish that you could be a little bit more vulnerable with.
But those resources thing, that's what I find the most
(12:10):
about. I don't know, especially the L and D community.
We are so giving with our
time, with our resources, maybe to a
fault sometimes. Um, but I
find that this community, it's like, oh, I'm struggling
here. Well, here's a template I've used, or, you know, here's
something I've got. Like, hey, here's my first
chapter that I'm writing for free. Have a look. Like, I don't know,
(12:33):
there's. I feel like our community especially
could be like that everywhere. And I'm sure it is within
communities, um, because I think that's the power of
find, especially with L and D. Super helpful.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (12:46):
I noticed that too, because in my role, uh, I
work with a membership organisation, so I have that privilege
of having a touch point with thousands of L
and D professionals across all different sectors,
all different organisations. And
often members would come to us to
try and signpost them. You know, they'd say, look, we've got this problem. Do
(13:06):
you know anybody? And I continuously make this
point and it is the one thing I have observed over the years, the
spirit of generosity that is
within the learning and development community. And I think it
comes with the territory of imparting
knowledge and sharing and learning. I think it just.
That becomes an endemic in you. But I feel that
(13:27):
that piece about the community is. And I
think learning and development is interesting in this context because,
you know, number of, over the decades, if you
like, um,
what an organisation Needs from people
has almost evolved. You know, there was
the sort of hrm, the management of people
(13:47):
and, uh, that's where learning
and development sat in there among that. But
it was not really that visible
at times. But I think over the years, as the whole
talent agenda has evolved and the strategic
imperative of skills, capability
and having, you know, great people who have
(14:07):
got the knowledge and skills that organisations need,
that has brought the hrd, the development
of people, the learning and development to the fore.
And I think there has been a little bit
of tension, you know, between the
traditional HR people and the learning and development
people to see, you know, hello,
(14:28):
we are here as well in our own right
and I think there's where the community comes in that
you're kind of, you know, we found our own tribe
here. Um, and I would notice that, you know, I don't
know. Do either of you notice that, that, you know, you go to
the HR conferences and you. And. But I found
over the years I know fewer and fewer people there.
(14:48):
Whereas when you go to the L and D events, there are
now a few quite poor L and D events and, and you
feed. This is my community, this is our, uh. It
becomes part of your identity as an L
and D professional.
>> Anita Gouvia (15:02):
Uh, yes. I can't even say that enough, Chen.
Like, yes. I don't know how invigorating I feel just to be
like, I'm with my people. Right. And yeah,
that's so important in, in community.
Right.
How have you seen our L
community shift over the years and your experience,
uh, either of you?
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (15:24):
Well, I would notice two things. That is one piece
that I think learning and development as a profession
is evolving in its own right, uh,
through its own channel. The other thing I notice is
that it is now like it used to be a
sort of a second destination career, if you like. Like you
kind of start off with some other subject matter expertise
(15:44):
and then over time, you know, you almost came to
learning and development through the training route.
Whereas now you see, you know, young
career professionals coming off, coming off grad
programmes and they are moving into learning and
development roles right from the beginning of their career.
So it's very much now a, ah, career in its own
(16:04):
right. Um, you know, you see young people moving
into learning and development through technology
roles or content creation
and it's no longer tied into that sort of
vocational piece around just training. So
there are two things I notice.
>> Sinead Hennigan (16:22):
Yeah. Talking about technology, that
has been a great shift. We now have
a lot of learning technologies that people.
And they keep evolving. It's Amazing the way you have
different tools coming up for video creation,
for um, the
authoring tools, even collaboration
(16:42):
tools. It's amazing the shift in technology.
>> Anita Gouvia (16:45):
Yeah, that actually I think, you know, our
pandemic, you know, recent pandemic really
accelerated that and that's what I found. A lot of my communities I
felt were in person going to events, whether
they were conferences and of course the chats.
But I did feel like the pandemic um, propelled this
online community like so many more online
(17:05):
communities. Like you know, the global learning and
development community that John Hitchcliffe that
started, that was one of my very first
large scale global community where I was able to
now not just connect with people in Canada but now I
was, had access to all these, you know,
individuals from around the world. And it was
wonderful. It was so great to get
(17:27):
different perspectives, um, especially culturally. Right.
Isn't that so important to get that? Because if we're always
hanging out with people who think the same as us, like is that really
a learning. Right.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (17:39):
But, but even back to then to kind of link up
those two things about.
We were just talking about the communities and the technology,
like technology now has made the world so small and
we have all of these virtual communities. I mean we can do this so easily
where we're all over the world and
you know we could, we, we're essentially in the same room
and I think that is one of the things
(18:01):
that the capacity for people to come together, to
share, to be in conversations, um,
you know, to bridge all the time zones,
um, to share, you know, like the
using tools and different
platforms and that to kind of, to share and to create
these different communities of practise. Um,
(18:22):
technology has been a huge enabler of that.
The other thing I would say that I have noticed over the years
is uh, the sort of very explicit
acknowledgement of you know,
learning cultures within organisations and
a very deliberate intention to
create learning organisations. And
(18:45):
you'd notice it, I notice it in sort of
where L and D sits in organisations
now. Um, and I think sometimes you see very
successful learning cultures
emerging where L and D is
sitting under ah,
engagement, you know that they're using learning
and development opportunities to get really good
(19:07):
engagement from their, from their workforce.
>> Sinead Hennigan (19:10):
Yeah, I kind of agree with you.
Um, there's not so much um, focus on
off the shelf content being delivered to people. There
is now more intentionality about
um, designing your learning with
people at the centre of it being people
focused, understanding what the people's need really.
(19:32):
Uh, and at times you get
to wonder if training is really the solution to the problem
at that point in time.
>> Anita Gouvia (19:38):
So like you kind of like shifted a little
bit of my thinking there with your last point. Like is,
is that the solution? And I feel like this is
too where community comes in, where so many
of us struggle with that in our organisations is how do we
have that seat at the table, how do we
you know, influence um,
(19:59):
behaviour and influence decisions that are being made. And
I feel like that's where if I could have
others who are struggling with me who can give me advice, who can
give me their opinions, who could share what's worked
with them, that, that
certainly helped in building
just our confidence, like just internal confidence and knowing
(20:20):
that I'm not alone, but also knowing how can I approach this?
>> Sinead Hennigan (20:24):
Yeah, can we talk about
how women are being affected by,
you know, the effect of communities on women,
highlighting the challenges and opportunities for women in this
space. Is this something that we can,
you know, key into this discussion?
>> Anita Gouvia (20:41):
Great question. I actually, I
think for a lot of communities especially
um, perhaps maybe tech or you know, where
you're not, woman isn't a
majority. But I do feel like my learning and
development community, I guess because it's that HR
type of field where it's linked and there's a lot more
women. So for me personally I have not really
(21:04):
felt um, that my community
hasn't empowered me as a woman enough. I feel
very connected, I feel very supported. Where
it changes is then when I go back into the workforce
then that tends to be more male focused and
then I do feel like my voice isn't heard enough. So it's
almost like I can go back to the community to go get some more
(21:25):
confidence and I go back to work. That's been
my experience at least I don't know if that for you.
>> Sinead Hennigan (21:32):
Yeah, I agree with you about the fact that
there's the women. As women we face
extra pressure to prove ourselves in L and D,
especially in leadership or
tech heavy spaces. And
just like you mentioned Anita,
the communities that I've been part of have helped me a great
(21:52):
deal in offering a safe space to
share, to grow and to lead. You know,
take for example I've been invited uh,
by the L and D Shakers
community as well as being part of the learning and
learning network. I've had the opportunity to plan and
deliver events. I've had the opportunity to do,
(22:13):
to organise events online and
um, even in person and talking about
um, delivering webinars, delivering workshops. It
has grown my confidence a great deal.
I see myself constantly growing and becoming more
and more confident as I get exposed to this,
(22:34):
to engage with people in those communities.
Um, how about you, Sinead?
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (22:40):
Well, I just sometimes think about, you know,
how the, the world of work has
evolved and, and as part, you know, since, since the
pandemic and then, you know, how the
communities have evolved with that. And I
think the, the hybrid working, the, the,
the, the easy access to technology,
um, the amount of time that people are
(23:02):
spending that kind of REM remote working or in the office, those lines
have become blurred now between sort of what's your
demarked workspace and what's your demarked home
space. And I think in, in that sense that
um, it is great to have those communities. But
I do think sometimes, you know, you've got so
many competing priorities that you do
(23:22):
have to try and put some discipline around it and make sure
that you kind of uh, you know,
look after yourself in all of that and that you
don't become like, you know, the point you're making about
having to feel that you have to prove yourself. I do think that,
that sometimes there's a sense that you have to prove yourself,
but also I think sometimes you have to talk yourself into
(23:43):
a space where you also back yourself
if you like, and that you uh, have that level
of self belief and, and that you trust
your, your, your, your own judgement and trust your instincts
and know that we are strong as leaders, you
know. And um, I think,
you know, particularly now where we need organisations
(24:03):
to have an appetite for risk because that's
where the growth is going to come from. Um,
and women need to be confident to lead
organisations in that way. And
particularly when the sort of clarity that we used
to have around the direction of travel isn't there anymore now because
everything is in such state of flux. But we need to be
confident and to make sure that, you
(24:26):
know, we do trust ourselves and
that we believe that we, our
judgement is correct.
>> Anita Gouvia (24:33):
Agree with everything you both said.
Um, my mind started shifting a little bit
as you were talking about that, um, about the
amplifying of voices and things like that. And my
brain almost went to. Isn't that sometimes
the downfall of some communities where
then you've got these really strong
voices that tend to come up and that's all
(24:55):
you're hearing in the space is from a
selected few, you know, perhaps thought
leaders in space or highly influential or maybe just
the ones that you know are the loudest.
Um, do you see that as like, um,
you know, I guess,
um, downfall or negative to, to a
(25:15):
community perhaps, or how do we shift that. Or
maybe it's just my experience sometimes.
>> Sinead Hennigan (25:21):
Well, to answer your question,
I'll like to, like, build on what Chanet
said earlier about you feeling confident
in yourself. You know, there's
a tendency, you know, like you mentioned, when you're
in certain communities, it looks like that a group of people that
have been celebrated and the ones that. But at
(25:42):
times I feel when you feel confident in yourself and you put
yourself forward, that would.
That could help. I can share an
example. Like when I joined the Learning Network,
there was a. You know, in the Learning Network, every year
there's an opportunity to become a, uh, part of the
board directors. And, um,
(26:05):
I just thought, why, why not do it? Why not try
it? I could have just sat behind and thought,
it's not meant for someone like me. Maybe nobody would vote
me in. But I just give it. I gave it a shot.
And as it
happened, I was elected
in by people that did not even know me. And all I
(26:25):
had to do was do a campaign, talk about
my resume, talk about the benefit
and value I was bringing to the community and how I was
going to do that. And people
saw that, you know, that in me. They
saw that I could bring in the value based on my experience and
all that. And I was voted in and I served for one
(26:45):
year, and I happened to be one of those
names that were celebrated that
year. But if I did not summon courage to
put myself forward, I would have just sat behind.
I thought, it's not meant for me. I can't beat that
person. So I think to a great
extent, we as women need to get to the point where we
celebrate our wins. We need to look ourselves
(27:08):
and look at your resume, look at your experience, what
you've achieved, and tell yourself it's enough.
I can be celebrated too. And many of these
things just need to put yourself forward if there's an
opportunity. I'm sure if you're a member of a community, there
are times where you get opportunities to come and deliver a
webinar, deliver, you know, a workshop,
(27:29):
just put yourself up. And what
could, what could go wrong? It's either they say no or
yes. M. But most of the times communities are driven
by volunteers. And there's always a need for
someone to, to help and
be, uh, and deliver some value. And when you're
doing that, then people can see the value you have.
(27:50):
People can see your competency for
you might even get an opportunity to speak, even on a global
stage from that. So
like I said, like Chanel said, you just need
to Put yourself forward. You just need to believe in yourself and trust
that you are good enough.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (28:07):
Yeah, Effy. Because sometimes some of the narrative
and the discourse can almost become self fulfilling
prophecy. You know, the narrative around, well, it's
harder for women or women have more
demands or, you know, women don't have
enough time or, or you know, women are
primarily the caregivers at home. I, uh, mean, who
(28:28):
says this? Because if you, you know, if you,
sometimes you have to work to make sure that you
do create the space for yourself to succeed. And I think
all leaders at the moment are, you know, you
have to lead with humanity, you have to work on building
trust that becomes that, that's men and women.
So I don't think that um,
(28:48):
it's necessarily the case that we have to
buy into all of that narrative. I mean, I think
everybody is, is, is subject to the same
kind of demands. So I think it's up to women to make
sure that they hold that space for themselves
and, and don't allow themselves to be,
um, you know, sort of drawn into that,
(29:08):
that, those limitations simply because
that's the narrative that's out.
>> Anita Gouvia (29:13):
There that's so difficult to do. Right?
Isn't it? I mean, just the, just
that emotional pull, like that self confidence that you have to
have. Like, it's one thing like, I hear you, we got to put
ourselves out there. I mean just me being here today is me
putting myself out there. I'm feeling uncomfortable,
right? But I know I have to do that. But
(29:33):
then there's a part of me that's like, why can't I just be heard
without having to push myself to some limit?
Like it's just that yin and yang or that
paradox. Um, I don't know, like, you know, and then you see other
people do things online, which is great,
that communities have now gone online, can
expand, but it's, I don't know about you, but I know sometimes for
(29:54):
me it's like imposter syndrome or
what can I add to this? Like, these people are so
much better, smarter, look at everything they're doing.
I can't even compare. But I know we're not supposed
to. I, I, I get that.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (30:09):
Um, but you know, I also think sometimes you become
overwhelmed by uh, the sort of
the, the other, you know, all these communities and
networks. What we've been saying here about,
you know, the technology has made the world small and we can
now have communities everywhere if we want. Actually,
sometimes you can become overwhelmed
by the scale of your community that you don't actually
(30:32):
know how to engage meaningfully.
So, you know, you can have 500 plus connections,
but actually how connected are you with any of those people?
And I remember seeing a model once where they talked
about a number of different kind of key roles that you would feel you
need in your life. You might decide, you know, there are five or
10 key roles you need perhaps if, you know,
(30:52):
if you're going into business, or maybe you need a
connector, or sometimes we need a nerve
giver, or you need an advocate, or you
need, and maybe to really think about just a
small number of people that you could
really focus on building quality
relationships with them that are mutually beneficial.
And, you know, perhaps I think today you're
(31:15):
going to be my nerve giver, but maybe tomorrow I
could be your connector, you know, And I think that
if, you know, some people maybe don't know how to
actually sort of be
in a community, but perhaps that's a way to
start to just say, I'm only going to focus on really
nurturing these five or six key
(31:35):
relationships and trying to derive some
quality and, uh, to give quality.
>> Anita Gouvia (31:41):
That's awesome advice, Sinead. Like, I love that and
I, like, just start small. And I think that's
where the difference between a network and a community
you don't need to be, you know, is, like you said, is that 500
people that you're a part of in the community, are they really
your connection? And that's where it's like, no, that's just part of
a network which you can reach out. And those are fantastic. But
(32:02):
like you said, narrow it down.
You don't need to belong to every L and D community out
there. Um, but pick the ones that maybe
really resonate with your passion and your strengths.
>> Sinead Hennigan (32:15):
Yeah, so true. You have to be
intentional about what community you
join. Not every community is for you,
honestly.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (32:23):
And I think you sign up to so many things and the next thing, your inbox
is full with, you know, all their newsletters, um, and what do
you do? You just delete them. You don't engage at all.
So, in fact, what is the point, you
know, so honestly. And there's
a bit of fomo. Oh, my goodness, I better stay involved with this because
I might need them in the future. But actually I have
(32:44):
never used them yet. So, you know,
maybe it's time to start narrowing the, the
funnel a little bit and to really start,
you know, nurturing the relationships that you have or
harvesting some new ones that you feel perhaps can
support you to fill some gaps, um, or needs
that you might Have.
>> Anita Gouvia (33:03):
That's a great point. I'm part of a OD community.
Um, it's a local one. Um, we're at the point.
It's. It's been a couple years, but we're almost at the point
now. I don't know what it is, but it's almost
like, is it time to split? Like have. Has it
served its purpose? Um, or is it time
that maybe there's new members that we need to actively go out
(33:24):
to bring new voices to the table? Because at this point
it's just, you know, we're the same voices and we've, uh,
perhaps maybe, I don't know, learned what we've needed to
learn. But I think that's really good point is knowing when,
when to leave, when it serves your purpose. Yeah.
Um, when it fuels you. Right,
yeah, true.
>> Sinead Hennigan (33:43):
Talking about people, um,
who are not in communities, what advice do
you have for them?
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (33:51):
Well, I think back to the point we were just making there, uh,
you know, like in another, with another
hat on. I do quite a bit of fundraising. Uh,
I'm very involved with the charity and often
people would say, oh, I
don't know, I couldn't do anything, I couldn't do anything, I wouldn't know
how to do that. Everybody can do something. Like, I
(34:11):
think every. People think I don't really know anybody
or everybody knows somebody. And I think all
you've got to do is scroll through your phone, think about the different things
you're involved in in your life. And
it's back to that point that we were making earlier about the
blurred lines. Like people are involved in
things that they wouldn't consider to be
related to their core work, but actually
(34:34):
you can build your community there and
acquire learning and skills that you can
transfer into other aspects of your life. So I think you
need to think about your life and your activity
in their totality and understand how you can
kind of cross pollinate things, um, that
will yield results for you elsewhere.
>> Sinead Hennigan (34:54):
Yeah. And I also think that, um, joining
a community should be something
you consider if it aligns with your
goals. Do you have the goals of putting yourself
out there, building a brand and then in joining a
community and offering to volunteer as a speaker
and do some other things, Is it going to give you that visibility that
(35:15):
you need, or is your goal that you need to
learn more? Do you want to increase your network work?
Joining a community should be around,
you have a goal that you want to achieve and joining a
community is going to help you achieve that. And then
you now need to Consider what
community do I want to join? What happens in there? Who are
(35:35):
the people in there? How are they going? How, what
value am I going to get being part of that community? What value
am I bringing in? And then there's the other side
of you, starting a community on your own.
Do you wish that there's a problem that should be
solved, which a community can solve, and there is no community
doing that? I think you have that passion to do that.
(35:55):
Do you think you have the bandwidth, you know, the strength to do
that? Are you considering starting your own community? I
mean, these are questions that you want to think about when it,
when we're talking about, um, joining a community
or starting on being part of one.
>> Anita Gouvia (36:09):
Yeah, yeah, I think you bring a really
good point there. Um, that
communities are about a what value
you can bring, but what value you can get. So I do
think it's a give and take. You shouldn't join a community if all
you want to do is take, take, take from that community.
Um, but also what can you bring? What
(36:31):
value can you bring forward and the
best that you can? So I think you know, all of
that. Joining a community for your purpose, what you
want to gain, but also what can you give back?
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (36:44):
And I think as well, like people who are in the business
of learning, um, they engage in
that spirit of reciprocity anyway, I think it just
becomes innate. But I think once you are
prepared to, you know, be
agile and be prepared to
continuously evolve and grow
and to use learning as the enabler of
(37:06):
that, I think, you know, you'll always feel
that you're in a good place.
>> Anita Gouvia (37:10):
What a great way to end Sinead.
>> Sinead Hennigan (37:12):
So it's been an amazing time with you
ladies. Um, you know, getting to know about you,
Anita and Sinead and learning from you. It's been
a great time with you.
>> Anita Gouvia (37:22):
Thank you to both. I feel like I've just expanded my
community, so this is wonderful. Thank you both.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (37:29):
Well, I was just going to make that point too. We're now like a little
community in our own right, learning from each other.
Yes, it's been a really good conversation. Thanks very much to
you both.
>> Andrew Jacobs (37:38):
We're always delighted to get new guests on the podcast
and we love that this was properly global.
Canadian, Irish and uk.
This was such an enjoyable listen. I'm sure it's one that
we'll come back to again and again. What really stood
out to us was the massive positive sharing
energy from the podcast and an enormous thank you to
(37:59):
Anita, Sinead, Onoi and Mola for their
time and great conversation. Their contact
details are in the show notes, along with links to our website,
future Episodes, and to our donation page.
We'll be back in a couple of weeks, and next time it's
the education one. As always,
thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon.
>> Sinead Hennigan (38:30):
Sa.
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode the L and
D Community. One of the women Talking About Learning podcast.
I'm Andrew Jacobs. This topic has been on our
schedule for some time and it was great that we could finally get around to
recording it. The L and D community is known for
being one of the friendliest, warmest and supportive groups.
Um, and we really strongly encourage this. We
(00:32):
wanted to get some more views and opinions.
So with this in mind, with three wonderful guests chatting through
this topic, our first guest is Anita Gouvia.
Anita is an OD and learning leader who
spent the last 20 plus years helping people grow, lead
and making work better for people and people better at
work. She's led leadership programmes,
built practical and inclusive learning strategies and coached
(00:53):
teams across industries. Outside her day job,
she volunteers as chair of the Peel Horton chapter of
the Institute for Performance and Learning where she helps
connect and elevate L and D professionals.
She's also a fan of improv walks and a good
podcast. Our next guest is Sinead
Hennigan. Sinead has worked in senior roles with the
Learning and Development Institute in Ireland for many years.
(01:16):
In her role as CEO she leads the team to develop a
high value member offer uh and the Strategic alliance of the
IITD with all stakeholders. She
has vast experience with individuals, corporates, further and higher
education providers as well as state agencies and
has represented the industry in an influencing and advocacy
role for many years. On a
(01:36):
voluntary basis, Sinead strategically contributes to the work of Down
Syndrome island who she has represented and
advocated at ministerial level, led
fundraising campaigns delivering over
€200,000 and contributed to
doctoral research in the field of qualitative education
provision for learners with special needs.
Sinead sits on the GAA alliance to Council Games for
(01:57):
All committee where she's developed a framework for
GAA clubs to include children and teenagers
with additional needs in social and sporting
activities. Our final guest is
Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai.
Oyuindamola is a Digital Learning Strategist,
EdTech Career Coach, speaker and Entrepreneur with over 20
years of experience helping organisations and individuals
(02:19):
trans they learn and grow. A certified
Digital Learning Professional and Clinton Global Initiative
Fellow, Ayindamola, uh, founded the E Learning and
Instructional Designers Hub ELID to
mentor underrepresented professionals in edtech.
She's been recognised as a finalist in the Milton Keynes STEM
Awards and served on the Learning Network UK board
(02:40):
recorded in early May 2025.
This is Women talking about learning. This is
Anita Sinead Ono
Yindamola talking about L and D community.
>> Anita Gouvia (02:52):
Hello ladies. How Are you
today?
>> Sinead Hennigan (02:55):
I'm great. Um, it's
quite sunny outside. It's been a lovely
weather for some days now. It's amazing here.
Joining from the UK by the way.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (03:05):
And I am joining from Dublin
on uh, a, uh, holiday
weekend, so all is good here at our
side as well. The weather always
helps.
>> Anita Gouvia (03:17):
Sure does. I'm calling in from Toronto,
so on the other side of the world there it feels, but our weather
seems very similar.
Um, so what brought you guys here today to the L and D
community?
>> Sinead Hennigan (03:28):
1. My interest in the L and
D community has been
since when I was in a role
as an event designer then I wasn't part
of any community and I saw my,
um, colleagues moving faster. It was as
if there was a clique, they were getting these
(03:50):
jobs better than me. I just felt what's happening?
Then I realised that we're in a community where they were growing together,
learning things together. And then I realised that
the power of community and
that for me has been.
I've had that interest since then.
Now transitioning to tech as an L and D professional,
(04:11):
I've been part of some communities like the LND Shaker as
a learning network where last year I was part
of the board directors. The growth
that I experienced and uh,
the support, the connections, the network has
been amazing, which led me to
start my own community where I
(04:32):
help people from underrepresented background
transition to um,
tech, ed tech to be, to be
specific. So it's been amazing the impact that I
have experienced and the joy that I
have seen people being impacted. Being part of the community
has been amazing. And that's why when I saw
(04:53):
this, um, when I heard about the podcast,
about the community, when I knew I had to be on board and
I'm happy to be here to be with you ladies and to learn
from you and know about your experience as well.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (05:06):
Well, I think that's great because really ultimately
that's what it's about. You never stop learning. And
um, I've been in my role for
25 years, can you believe that? But it doesn't feel like
25 years because I think
learning, learning and development
particularly is something which is,
(05:27):
uh, evolving all the time and
it evolves as, as the world evolves and
business evolves and we. Such incredible
disruption in the world in the last 25 years. And I think
it's been very interesting, uh, in my role
to see how learning and development has evolved
with that and how learning and development
professionals have evolved with that as well.
(05:49):
And um, you know, I think it's
interesting because I had a particular
moment about seven or eight years ago
where I said, oh, God, I've stayed in this role too
long and should I move on?
Not because I wanted to move on. I
absolutely loved my role. I loved learning
and development, I loved working in this industry, I love the
(06:12):
people I work with. But I did wonder,
um, was it the best thing for the organisation
for me to continue to stay in the role, having been there
for so long. And I sought out the
advice of a, uh, really clever,
um, HR academic who
regularly appears on Thinkers 50 and all of that. And I said to
(06:33):
him, you know, I think I'm going to have to leave. I think I've, I've,
I've. I'm. I just don't know if I can,
if you can be effective, if you can stay in the same
role all your life. And he said to me,
you can stay in the same role all your life as long as you're
effective. And then I said to myself, how do you
know if you're effective?
And you know, and I think as long as you keep asking that
(06:56):
question, how do you know if you're effective? And
I decided at that point. Now, I had done a
Master's before, but I decided to
do an MBA because I thought it would be
a really good filter for me to expose
myself to new theories, new
thinking, but particularly to other
people who are in other contexts and other
(07:19):
organisations so that I could get the value of
peer learning. And almost all of those things
combined would be a, uh, filter for me to kind
of benchmark myself against what's happening in other
organisations and what are other senior leaders doing.
>> Anita Gouvia (07:34):
Sinead, you bring up something really important like
you reached out to someone in your community or someone you
trusted, right? And that's part of being a
community, right, that you can go to someone with questions, with
issues, with problems. And I had similar to that
where I was kind of questioning like, is this still what I want to do?
Like, am m I in the right place, doing the right thing?
And I too reached out to my community of network
(07:57):
individuals, um, and I think that's
the power where you can get insight. And isn't that what
community does is not only people who think
like us, because that's not what we want necessarily, but
someone who understands what we're going through the field, the
world, you know, like, so nice to be able to talk to someone
who gets it right where we don't need to explain it.
(08:18):
So I think one
of the first places where I experienced, um, Community.
And it's, uh. This is where you're working well,
though, on the other side of the world is the Institute for
Performance and Learning. It's the association here in Canada
for professionals. And that was, you know, over 20
years ago when I first, um, you
(08:38):
know, connected with them. And it's like, you know,
Ondemola, that's like you, right? It's like
I'm alone here at work. I'm the only one in L
and D, so I'm expected to be the subject matter expert,
but who do I go to for questions, for
advice, for help, you know,
um, so I connected with the association and
(08:58):
I've been a part of them since. But they were my first
community where I can reach out to a side of the
organisation.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (09:08):
I think it's important as well to
be constantly reflecting and to try
and understand what is the
most beneficial and appropriate
intervention at different times. So
sometimes it is mentoring and
sometimes it's education and
sometimes it's, it's conversation.
(09:30):
And I think you learn. There's a, you know, all of
these different opportunities are learning
opportunities. And it's just
important to be continuously asking yourself, what
do I need? What do I need now at this particular
point?
>> Sinead Hennigan (09:47):
Yeah, um, talking
about the power of, um, community,
where you have to differentiate between community and
network. I would say
being part of a community based on my own experience
has been very, very useful for
me and it's been quite, very, very impactive.
(10:07):
I started my own
business as a freelancer recently, uh, well,
a little over a year now. And just like,
um, Anita mentioned, there, uh, are times that you, you're just
alone, working alone, and you're wondering, how do I start?
How do I. How am I sure that the
SOP that I have is standard? How do I know
(10:28):
that the contract that I have is the right one? And
being part of different L and D communities has, uh,
helped me a great deal. So just pop in a question in
that, in the chat and some. And you get different
opinions, you get different, um,
um, documents being sent to you and it just
helps you feel confident. There have been situations where
(10:48):
I needed to be sure about the price that I was quoting for,
you know, a gig. And, you know, just putting in
that, that message in the chat helped me a great deal.
So being part of a community, I would say, is,
um, a very, very
useful one. It's, it's really great. It makes you feel like you're
part of a family. It helps you grow faster.
(11:11):
You are, uh, you know, you're not alone. Even though you're
alone, you're not alone, you feel that support. You're able to have
access to resources, encouragement at times.
I've been in the. A community which
is called Women in, where one of the
members who is a coach just put in a message one day and said,
um, I'm a coach and I have free slots for anyone that needs
(11:32):
someone to talk to. Imagine how
useful that is. So being part of a community is like
being part of a family and not just in a
network where you don't. You can't really reach out to
people. So it's. It's been really amazing for me.
What, what about you ladies? Has it been?
>> Anita Gouvia (11:50):
I mean, I love what you said there too. Um,
especially about resources, like, you go into the community and
then that's, I think, you know, that nuance there with networking,
where you're there, just, you know, get to know people, community
is deeper, right? Like, there's more of a connection that
you establish that you could be a little bit more vulnerable with.
But those resources thing, that's what I find the most
(12:10):
about. I don't know, especially the L and D community.
We are so giving with our
time, with our resources, maybe to a
fault sometimes. Um, but I
find that this community, it's like, oh, I'm struggling
here. Well, here's a template I've used, or, you know, here's
something I've got. Like, hey, here's my first
chapter that I'm writing for free. Have a look. Like, I don't know,
(12:33):
there's. I feel like our community especially
could be like that everywhere. And I'm sure it is within
communities, um, because I think that's the power of
find, especially with L and D. Super helpful.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (12:46):
I noticed that too, because in my role, uh, I
work with a membership organisation, so I have that privilege
of having a touch point with thousands of L
and D professionals across all different sectors,
all different organisations. And
often members would come to us to
try and signpost them. You know, they'd say, look, we've got this problem. Do
(13:06):
you know anybody? And I continuously make this
point and it is the one thing I have observed over the years, the
spirit of generosity that is
within the learning and development community. And I think it
comes with the territory of imparting
knowledge and sharing and learning. I think it just.
That becomes an endemic in you. But I feel that
(13:27):
that piece about the community is. And I
think learning and development is interesting in this context because,
you know, number of, over the decades, if you
like, um,
what an organisation Needs from people
has almost evolved. You know, there was
the sort of hrm, the management of people
(13:47):
and, uh, that's where learning
and development sat in there among that. But
it was not really that visible
at times. But I think over the years, as the whole
talent agenda has evolved and the strategic
imperative of skills, capability
and having, you know, great people who have
(14:07):
got the knowledge and skills that organisations need,
that has brought the hrd, the development
of people, the learning and development to the fore.
And I think there has been a little bit
of tension, you know, between the
traditional HR people and the learning and development
people to see, you know, hello,
(14:28):
we are here as well in our own right
and I think there's where the community comes in that
you're kind of, you know, we found our own tribe
here. Um, and I would notice that, you know, I don't
know. Do either of you notice that, that, you know, you go to
the HR conferences and you. And. But I found
over the years I know fewer and fewer people there.
(14:48):
Whereas when you go to the L and D events, there are
now a few quite poor L and D events and, and you
feed. This is my community, this is our, uh. It
becomes part of your identity as an L
and D professional.
>> Anita Gouvia (15:02):
Uh, yes. I can't even say that enough, Chen.
Like, yes. I don't know how invigorating I feel just to be
like, I'm with my people. Right. And yeah,
that's so important in, in community.
Right.
How have you seen our L
community shift over the years and your experience,
uh, either of you?
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (15:24):
Well, I would notice two things. That is one piece
that I think learning and development as a profession
is evolving in its own right, uh,
through its own channel. The other thing I notice is
that it is now like it used to be a
sort of a second destination career, if you like. Like you
kind of start off with some other subject matter expertise
(15:44):
and then over time, you know, you almost came to
learning and development through the training route.
Whereas now you see, you know, young
career professionals coming off, coming off grad
programmes and they are moving into learning and
development roles right from the beginning of their career.
So it's very much now a, ah, career in its own
(16:04):
right. Um, you know, you see young people moving
into learning and development through technology
roles or content creation
and it's no longer tied into that sort of
vocational piece around just training. So
there are two things I notice.
>> Sinead Hennigan (16:22):
Yeah. Talking about technology, that
has been a great shift. We now have
a lot of learning technologies that people.
And they keep evolving. It's Amazing the way you have
different tools coming up for video creation,
for um, the
authoring tools, even collaboration
(16:42):
tools. It's amazing the shift in technology.
>> Anita Gouvia (16:45):
Yeah, that actually I think, you know, our
pandemic, you know, recent pandemic really
accelerated that and that's what I found. A lot of my communities I
felt were in person going to events, whether
they were conferences and of course the chats.
But I did feel like the pandemic um, propelled this
online community like so many more online
(17:05):
communities. Like you know, the global learning and
development community that John Hitchcliffe that
started, that was one of my very first
large scale global community where I was able to
now not just connect with people in Canada but now I
was, had access to all these, you know,
individuals from around the world. And it was
wonderful. It was so great to get
(17:27):
different perspectives, um, especially culturally. Right.
Isn't that so important to get that? Because if we're always
hanging out with people who think the same as us, like is that really
a learning. Right.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (17:39):
But, but even back to then to kind of link up
those two things about.
We were just talking about the communities and the technology,
like technology now has made the world so small and
we have all of these virtual communities. I mean we can do this so easily
where we're all over the world and
you know we could, we, we're essentially in the same room
and I think that is one of the things
(18:01):
that the capacity for people to come together, to
share, to be in conversations, um,
you know, to bridge all the time zones,
um, to share, you know, like the
using tools and different
platforms and that to kind of, to share and to create
these different communities of practise. Um,
(18:22):
technology has been a huge enabler of that.
The other thing I would say that I have noticed over the years
is uh, the sort of very explicit
acknowledgement of you know,
learning cultures within organisations and
a very deliberate intention to
create learning organisations. And
(18:45):
you'd notice it, I notice it in sort of
where L and D sits in organisations
now. Um, and I think sometimes you see very
successful learning cultures
emerging where L and D is
sitting under ah,
engagement, you know that they're using learning
and development opportunities to get really good
(19:07):
engagement from their, from their workforce.
>> Sinead Hennigan (19:10):
Yeah, I kind of agree with you.
Um, there's not so much um, focus on
off the shelf content being delivered to people. There
is now more intentionality about
um, designing your learning with
people at the centre of it being people
focused, understanding what the people's need really.
(19:32):
Uh, and at times you get
to wonder if training is really the solution to the problem
at that point in time.
>> Anita Gouvia (19:38):
So like you kind of like shifted a little
bit of my thinking there with your last point. Like is,
is that the solution? And I feel like this is
too where community comes in, where so many
of us struggle with that in our organisations is how do we
have that seat at the table, how do we
you know, influence um,
(19:59):
behaviour and influence decisions that are being made. And
I feel like that's where if I could have
others who are struggling with me who can give me advice, who can
give me their opinions, who could share what's worked
with them, that, that
certainly helped in building
just our confidence, like just internal confidence and knowing
(20:20):
that I'm not alone, but also knowing how can I approach this?
>> Sinead Hennigan (20:24):
Yeah, can we talk about
how women are being affected by,
you know, the effect of communities on women,
highlighting the challenges and opportunities for women in this
space. Is this something that we can,
you know, key into this discussion?
>> Anita Gouvia (20:41):
Great question. I actually, I
think for a lot of communities especially
um, perhaps maybe tech or you know, where
you're not, woman isn't a
majority. But I do feel like my learning and
development community, I guess because it's that HR
type of field where it's linked and there's a lot more
women. So for me personally I have not really
(21:04):
felt um, that my community
hasn't empowered me as a woman enough. I feel
very connected, I feel very supported. Where
it changes is then when I go back into the workforce
then that tends to be more male focused and
then I do feel like my voice isn't heard enough. So it's
almost like I can go back to the community to go get some more
(21:25):
confidence and I go back to work. That's been
my experience at least I don't know if that for you.
>> Sinead Hennigan (21:32):
Yeah, I agree with you about the fact that
there's the women. As women we face
extra pressure to prove ourselves in L and D,
especially in leadership or
tech heavy spaces. And
just like you mentioned Anita,
the communities that I've been part of have helped me a great
(21:52):
deal in offering a safe space to
share, to grow and to lead. You know,
take for example I've been invited uh,
by the L and D Shakers
community as well as being part of the learning and
learning network. I've had the opportunity to plan and
deliver events. I've had the opportunity to do,
(22:13):
to organise events online and
um, even in person and talking about
um, delivering webinars, delivering workshops. It
has grown my confidence a great deal.
I see myself constantly growing and becoming more
and more confident as I get exposed to this,
(22:34):
to engage with people in those communities.
Um, how about you, Sinead?
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (22:40):
Well, I just sometimes think about, you know,
how the, the world of work has
evolved and, and as part, you know, since, since the
pandemic and then, you know, how the
communities have evolved with that. And I
think the, the hybrid working, the, the,
the, the easy access to technology,
um, the amount of time that people are
(23:02):
spending that kind of REM remote working or in the office, those lines
have become blurred now between sort of what's your
demarked workspace and what's your demarked home
space. And I think in, in that sense that
um, it is great to have those communities. But
I do think sometimes, you know, you've got so
many competing priorities that you do
(23:22):
have to try and put some discipline around it and make sure
that you kind of uh, you know,
look after yourself in all of that and that you
don't become like, you know, the point you're making about
having to feel that you have to prove yourself. I do think that,
that sometimes there's a sense that you have to prove yourself,
but also I think sometimes you have to talk yourself into
(23:43):
a space where you also back yourself
if you like, and that you uh, have that level
of self belief and, and that you trust
your, your, your, your own judgement and trust your instincts
and know that we are strong as leaders, you
know. And um, I think,
you know, particularly now where we need organisations
(24:03):
to have an appetite for risk because that's
where the growth is going to come from. Um,
and women need to be confident to lead
organisations in that way. And
particularly when the sort of clarity that we used
to have around the direction of travel isn't there anymore now because
everything is in such state of flux. But we need to be
confident and to make sure that, you
(24:26):
know, we do trust ourselves and
that we believe that we, our
judgement is correct.
>> Anita Gouvia (24:33):
Agree with everything you both said.
Um, my mind started shifting a little bit
as you were talking about that, um, about the
amplifying of voices and things like that. And my
brain almost went to. Isn't that sometimes
the downfall of some communities where
then you've got these really strong
voices that tend to come up and that's all
(24:55):
you're hearing in the space is from a
selected few, you know, perhaps thought
leaders in space or highly influential or maybe just
the ones that you know are the loudest.
Um, do you see that as like, um,
you know, I guess,
um, downfall or negative to, to a
(25:15):
community perhaps, or how do we shift that. Or
maybe it's just my experience sometimes.
>> Sinead Hennigan (25:21):
Well, to answer your question,
I'll like to, like, build on what Chanet
said earlier about you feeling confident
in yourself. You know, there's
a tendency, you know, like you mentioned, when you're
in certain communities, it looks like that a group of people that
have been celebrated and the ones that. But at
(25:42):
times I feel when you feel confident in yourself and you put
yourself forward, that would.
That could help. I can share an
example. Like when I joined the Learning Network,
there was a. You know, in the Learning Network, every year
there's an opportunity to become a, uh, part of the
board directors. And, um,
(26:05):
I just thought, why, why not do it? Why not try
it? I could have just sat behind and thought,
it's not meant for someone like me. Maybe nobody would vote
me in. But I just give it. I gave it a shot.
And as it
happened, I was elected
in by people that did not even know me. And all I
(26:25):
had to do was do a campaign, talk about
my resume, talk about the benefit
and value I was bringing to the community and how I was
going to do that. And people
saw that, you know, that in me. They
saw that I could bring in the value based on my experience and
all that. And I was voted in and I served for one
(26:45):
year, and I happened to be one of those
names that were celebrated that
year. But if I did not summon courage to
put myself forward, I would have just sat behind.
I thought, it's not meant for me. I can't beat that
person. So I think to a great
extent, we as women need to get to the point where we
celebrate our wins. We need to look ourselves
(27:08):
and look at your resume, look at your experience, what
you've achieved, and tell yourself it's enough.
I can be celebrated too. And many of these
things just need to put yourself forward if there's an
opportunity. I'm sure if you're a member of a community, there
are times where you get opportunities to come and deliver a
webinar, deliver, you know, a workshop,
(27:29):
just put yourself up. And what
could, what could go wrong? It's either they say no or
yes. M. But most of the times communities are driven
by volunteers. And there's always a need for
someone to, to help and
be, uh, and deliver some value. And when you're
doing that, then people can see the value you have.
(27:50):
People can see your competency for
you might even get an opportunity to speak, even on a global
stage from that. So
like I said, like Chanel said, you just need
to Put yourself forward. You just need to believe in yourself and trust
that you are good enough.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (28:07):
Yeah, Effy. Because sometimes some of the narrative
and the discourse can almost become self fulfilling
prophecy. You know, the narrative around, well, it's
harder for women or women have more
demands or, you know, women don't have
enough time or, or you know, women are
primarily the caregivers at home. I, uh, mean, who
(28:28):
says this? Because if you, you know, if you,
sometimes you have to work to make sure that you
do create the space for yourself to succeed. And I think
all leaders at the moment are, you know, you
have to lead with humanity, you have to work on building
trust that becomes that, that's men and women.
So I don't think that um,
(28:48):
it's necessarily the case that we have to
buy into all of that narrative. I mean, I think
everybody is, is, is subject to the same
kind of demands. So I think it's up to women to make
sure that they hold that space for themselves
and, and don't allow themselves to be,
um, you know, sort of drawn into that,
(29:08):
that, those limitations simply because
that's the narrative that's out.
>> Anita Gouvia (29:13):
There that's so difficult to do. Right?
Isn't it? I mean, just the, just
that emotional pull, like that self confidence that you have to
have. Like, it's one thing like, I hear you, we got to put
ourselves out there. I mean just me being here today is me
putting myself out there. I'm feeling uncomfortable,
right? But I know I have to do that. But
(29:33):
then there's a part of me that's like, why can't I just be heard
without having to push myself to some limit?
Like it's just that yin and yang or that
paradox. Um, I don't know, like, you know, and then you see other
people do things online, which is great,
that communities have now gone online, can
expand, but it's, I don't know about you, but I know sometimes for
(29:54):
me it's like imposter syndrome or
what can I add to this? Like, these people are so
much better, smarter, look at everything they're doing.
I can't even compare. But I know we're not supposed
to. I, I, I get that.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (30:09):
Um, but you know, I also think sometimes you become
overwhelmed by uh, the sort of
the, the other, you know, all these communities and
networks. What we've been saying here about,
you know, the technology has made the world small and we can
now have communities everywhere if we want. Actually,
sometimes you can become overwhelmed
by the scale of your community that you don't actually
(30:32):
know how to engage meaningfully.
So, you know, you can have 500 plus connections,
but actually how connected are you with any of those people?
And I remember seeing a model once where they talked
about a number of different kind of key roles that you would feel you
need in your life. You might decide, you know, there are five or
10 key roles you need perhaps if, you know,
(30:52):
if you're going into business, or maybe you need a
connector, or sometimes we need a nerve
giver, or you need an advocate, or you
need, and maybe to really think about just a
small number of people that you could
really focus on building quality
relationships with them that are mutually beneficial.
And, you know, perhaps I think today you're
(31:15):
going to be my nerve giver, but maybe tomorrow I
could be your connector, you know, And I think that
if, you know, some people maybe don't know how to
actually sort of be
in a community, but perhaps that's a way to
start to just say, I'm only going to focus on really
nurturing these five or six key
(31:35):
relationships and trying to derive some
quality and, uh, to give quality.
>> Anita Gouvia (31:41):
That's awesome advice, Sinead. Like, I love that and
I, like, just start small. And I think that's
where the difference between a network and a community
you don't need to be, you know, is, like you said, is that 500
people that you're a part of in the community, are they really
your connection? And that's where it's like, no, that's just part of
a network which you can reach out. And those are fantastic. But
(32:02):
like you said, narrow it down.
You don't need to belong to every L and D community out
there. Um, but pick the ones that maybe
really resonate with your passion and your strengths.
>> Sinead Hennigan (32:15):
Yeah, so true. You have to be
intentional about what community you
join. Not every community is for you,
honestly.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (32:23):
And I think you sign up to so many things and the next thing, your inbox
is full with, you know, all their newsletters, um, and what do
you do? You just delete them. You don't engage at all.
So, in fact, what is the point, you
know, so honestly. And there's
a bit of fomo. Oh, my goodness, I better stay involved with this because
I might need them in the future. But actually I have
(32:44):
never used them yet. So, you know,
maybe it's time to start narrowing the, the
funnel a little bit and to really start,
you know, nurturing the relationships that you have or
harvesting some new ones that you feel perhaps can
support you to fill some gaps, um, or needs
that you might Have.
>> Anita Gouvia (33:03):
That's a great point. I'm part of a OD community.
Um, it's a local one. Um, we're at the point.
It's. It's been a couple years, but we're almost at the point
now. I don't know what it is, but it's almost
like, is it time to split? Like have. Has it
served its purpose? Um, or is it time
that maybe there's new members that we need to actively go out
(33:24):
to bring new voices to the table? Because at this point
it's just, you know, we're the same voices and we've, uh,
perhaps maybe, I don't know, learned what we've needed to
learn. But I think that's really good point is knowing when,
when to leave, when it serves your purpose. Yeah.
Um, when it fuels you. Right,
yeah, true.
>> Sinead Hennigan (33:43):
Talking about people, um,
who are not in communities, what advice do
you have for them?
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (33:51):
Well, I think back to the point we were just making there, uh,
you know, like in another, with another
hat on. I do quite a bit of fundraising. Uh,
I'm very involved with the charity and often
people would say, oh, I
don't know, I couldn't do anything, I couldn't do anything, I wouldn't know
how to do that. Everybody can do something. Like, I
(34:11):
think every. People think I don't really know anybody
or everybody knows somebody. And I think all
you've got to do is scroll through your phone, think about the different things
you're involved in in your life. And
it's back to that point that we were making earlier about the
blurred lines. Like people are involved in
things that they wouldn't consider to be
related to their core work, but actually
(34:34):
you can build your community there and
acquire learning and skills that you can
transfer into other aspects of your life. So I think you
need to think about your life and your activity
in their totality and understand how you can
kind of cross pollinate things, um, that
will yield results for you elsewhere.
>> Sinead Hennigan (34:54):
Yeah. And I also think that, um, joining
a community should be something
you consider if it aligns with your
goals. Do you have the goals of putting yourself
out there, building a brand and then in joining a
community and offering to volunteer as a speaker
and do some other things, Is it going to give you that visibility that
(35:15):
you need, or is your goal that you need to
learn more? Do you want to increase your network work?
Joining a community should be around,
you have a goal that you want to achieve and joining a
community is going to help you achieve that. And then
you now need to Consider what
community do I want to join? What happens in there? Who are
(35:35):
the people in there? How are they going? How, what
value am I going to get being part of that community? What value
am I bringing in? And then there's the other side
of you, starting a community on your own.
Do you wish that there's a problem that should be
solved, which a community can solve, and there is no community
doing that? I think you have that passion to do that.
(35:55):
Do you think you have the bandwidth, you know, the strength to do
that? Are you considering starting your own community? I
mean, these are questions that you want to think about when it,
when we're talking about, um, joining a community
or starting on being part of one.
>> Anita Gouvia (36:09):
Yeah, yeah, I think you bring a really
good point there. Um, that
communities are about a what value
you can bring, but what value you can get. So I do
think it's a give and take. You shouldn't join a community if all
you want to do is take, take, take from that community.
Um, but also what can you bring? What
(36:31):
value can you bring forward and the
best that you can? So I think you know, all of
that. Joining a community for your purpose, what you
want to gain, but also what can you give back?
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (36:44):
And I think as well, like people who are in the business
of learning, um, they engage in
that spirit of reciprocity anyway, I think it just
becomes innate. But I think once you are
prepared to, you know, be
agile and be prepared to
continuously evolve and grow
and to use learning as the enabler of
(37:06):
that, I think, you know, you'll always feel
that you're in a good place.
>> Anita Gouvia (37:10):
What a great way to end Sinead.
>> Sinead Hennigan (37:12):
So it's been an amazing time with you
ladies. Um, you know, getting to know about you,
Anita and Sinead and learning from you. It's been
a great time with you.
>> Anita Gouvia (37:22):
Thank you to both. I feel like I've just expanded my
community, so this is wonderful. Thank you both.
>> Oyundamola Ojo Erimaytai (37:29):
Well, I was just going to make that point too. We're now like a little
community in our own right, learning from each other.
Yes, it's been a really good conversation. Thanks very much to
you both.
>> Andrew Jacobs (37:38):
We're always delighted to get new guests on the podcast
and we love that this was properly global.
Canadian, Irish and uk.
This was such an enjoyable listen. I'm sure it's one that
we'll come back to again and again. What really stood
out to us was the massive positive sharing
energy from the podcast and an enormous thank you to
(37:59):
Anita, Sinead, Onoi and Mola for their
time and great conversation. Their contact
details are in the show notes, along with links to our website,
future Episodes, and to our donation page.
We'll be back in a couple of weeks, and next time it's
the education one. As always,
thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon.
>> Sinead Hennigan (38:30):
Sa.
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