July 8, 2025 • 36 mins
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Andrew Jacobs (00:12):
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the
Patriarchy one of the Women Talking About Learning
podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. This is the
115th episode of the podcast and
Patriarchy is a topic that we've wanted to record for
a while, especially since the whole point of the
podcast is to actively challenge and um, promote women's
voices. We didn't know where our guests would take this conversation and it
(00:34):
was great to hear their insightful views and opinions.
Our first guest is Laura Howard. Laura's
passion and professional purpose is making work
work for everyone, leaders, teams and
customers. After a 20 year global
career in the private and public sectors, including
10 years as a senior leader, she qualified as
(00:54):
an organisational psychologist in 2022.
This led her to launch the Contented workplace,
fulfilling her ambitions for everyone to be their best
and bring that best to work. Our
second guest is Cornelia Rauble. Cornelia
is a former nine figure CEO, certified
NLP and strategic leadership coach who
(01:16):
specialises in helping ambitious women become board ready
in six months. With a unique blend
of commercial insight and mindset transformation,
she equips professionals to lead with confidence,
clarity and impact. Her uh, work is grounded
in behavioural science and executive experience.
And whether in the boardroom or on stage,
(01:36):
she empowers leaders to own their voice, develop
the mindset and strategy that delivers
results and achieve measurable growth.
Recorded in May of this year. This is women
talking about learning. This is Laura and
Cornelia talking about patriarchy.
>> Laura Howard (01:53):
Hi Laura, good to see you. How are you?
>> Cornelia Rauble (01:56):
Hi Cornelia. I'm great, thank you.
Today the sun is shining in uh,
Derbyshire. How are you doing today?
>> Laura Howard (02:05):
I'm doing okay, but it's not quite as sunny. It's ah, a bit
overcast today and it was really cold this morning when I got up at
5:30, so um, it's not quite as
cold. So Laura, why did you want
to come and talk about the patriarchy?
>> Cornelia Rauble (02:20):
I've been a, uh, Women in Leadership
specialist for several years now
and my passion for this area
grew out of my early career
where I was very unconscious about
emerging biases that I faced
in leadership. So, so I'm sure we'll get onto
(02:42):
these. But these sorts of scars, if you
like, have fueled my interest
in researching and
practising this subject.
And it's one that I enjoy speaking about
and working with, um, female
leaders across things like confidence
(03:02):
imposter, uh, syndrome,
um, and all these
complex topics that when we hit
the nail of, can really elevate uh,
a woman's experience in the workplace. I'M sure we'll get
into that shortly.
And how about you tell me what brings you to this,
uh, episode of the podcast, Cornelia?
>> Laura Howard (03:25):
Well, this was one I was really keen on doing. Um,
so if I tell you a little bit about my early career, that will
probably put everything in context.
So I spent nearly 20 years in the
steel industry, which was
incredibly male dominated.
Um, and although I didn't really realise,
(03:45):
like yourself at the time, about bias,
I didn't really pay that much attention to it. I
think is probably true.
Um, I found as I went
through the industry that there were
fewer and fewer and fewer women.
And so I was, um,
a CEO, chief executive officer of
(04:08):
a company that had an annual turnover of a quarter of
a billion US dollars. And I was
always the only woman in the room. And I
could guarantee that some, if I was having a meeting with
somebody, um, at some point one
of the men would turn to me and say, oh, could you make us a cup
of coffee, love? And it used to be my great
(04:28):
pleasure to then turn to one of the, uh, male
traders to say, could you go and get us a cup of coffee, please?
Um, and it's that, you know, the
bias that a woman in the room has got to be
a secretary. Um, so that was the start
of it. That was the foundation. And
now I coach, I coach leaders.
(04:49):
Um, but I have a very big interest in
helping women to get onto boards to
run their own companies. Um, and I really
would like to see far more women on
boards than Steve's and Dave's, because there are more
Steves and Dave's on boards than there are
women. And so that for me is
a really key, key bit.
>> Cornelia Rauble (05:11):
Yeah, gosh, yeah, you paint a very visceral
picture there of, um, being sat at
that board table. And
I did some research recently as part
of my thesis for my MAST in
Organisational Psychology. And my
subject was around women
(05:32):
leadership and women leading
authentically. Could they feel
like they were bringing their entire selves
to work? So what you speak to in terms of
being assumed, the secretary
was very much still alive
in the research that I did two years
(05:52):
ago. Um, and what I'm
interested in is how that made you feel,
because. Yeah, just tell me more about that
experience. Where were you feeling that in your
body?
>> Laura Howard (06:06):
Oh, so for me,
if that had been earlier in my career, and I
was affected by it earlier in my
career and I did struggle with it, but I actually
had a point where
it's probably a bit too long a story for the podcast, but,
um, I was really bullied
(06:28):
by a particular, ah, person. And,
um, it was that point where I could either
run away and go and do something completely different,
never go back again, or I could stand and
basically fight. And I chose to stand and
fight and not let them win.
So I had a lot of internal reserves, a lot
(06:49):
of. I wouldn't have said particularly confidence if you'd
asked me. Um, but
I'm a fairly strong person in any case, so
I managed to fight my way through.
Um, and I was very fortunate. I had people around me,
particularly my husband, who was able to
give me his viewpoint on
(07:10):
how would a man see this, what would you do,
how could you make it better? And all of those sort of things. So
he was my real sounding board that I could just
sort of throw ideas at.
Um, but I know that there are so many other
women, because I've worked with so many of them, that
find that incredibly difficult and
(07:30):
tend to retreat a little bit because
it's just too much and they don't want to have to
have that fight. And I agree with them. Why should they have that fight?
Um, and
it's a really key thing, looking just not only
from the point of view of women and the patriarchal society,
(07:51):
but also going wider into
diversity. It's such a big thing.
It affects so many different things.
>> Cornelia Rauble (07:59):
Yeah, absolutely. And
what we see, um, the reported
gender pay gap as
supposedly shrinking. However,
um, if you look at the data for more
senior executives at the
organisation, that is where the gap is
greatest. And
(08:21):
data suggests that there's, um,
an improvement on women
on boards. But we know when it comes to
those chair positions or the CEO
positions, there's little
movement and the numbers
are sticking at remarkably low. I think
(08:42):
it's about, uh, it's between 14 and
18% at the latest, um,
research that I studied there.
So lots of
truisms around the
patriarchy society that
is, uh, abhorrent in how
(09:02):
women are forming their careers.
And talk about different
individual differences as well,
across, across women.
Um, and you've got intersections with,
you know, lgbtq, uh,
individuals or people of
colour. And when I. This came up
(09:25):
when I did my research as well,
because, you know, young
Black woman raising into
a career in law, for example. One
of my participants was asked if they spoke English.
Well, of course, the answer was a
categoric yes. Why would this woman
(09:45):
be applying for a job in English language,
uh, without that skill? And
this same person speaks of
confidence and a relaxed attitude.
Now she's deeper and further on in her career because
she knows her strength. She knows her
contribution. But if you're a younger
(10:08):
person, you know, with um, dependence with,
with a team, with a, a big
mortgage, you know, these are real
issues that, that force you into
um, fitting into a, a
stereotype and toeing the line that that
means, you know, your job isn't going to be at risk for
(10:28):
speaking out.
>> Laura Howard (10:31):
I agree. And that's what keeps so many women
silent. And as we said across, across the
board when we're talking about diversity.
But I think the key thing to say
in, in this is that I don't think
we should get rid of men. Um, I think we should
recognise that a
lot of our society is actually built on
(10:54):
things that have been created for men by men.
Um, and you know, you can look at some of the things like
was it crash, um, test
dummies?
>> Cornelia Rauble (11:03):
Yeah.
>> Laura Howard (11:04):
I mean it's only recently that they've, they've been
making them so that it fits the
physique of a woman or a pregnant woman
or things like that. And so it's
realising that that's where we are at the moment. But
it's also a case of I think, not
throwing everything out with that because
there are a lot of very good uh,
(11:27):
allies amongst the men. So
I just want to share a little story on that because, um,
I went to a, ah, collegiate university
and I was one of the first 20 women into an
all male college. Uh, wow.
And I can remember this very clearly because
the majority of them were so happy that we had
(11:48):
joined the college. Do you want to know why?
>> Cornelia Rauble (11:50):
Go on. Yes. I'm on the edge of my seat.
>> Laura Howard (11:53):
Because they got mirrors in their bathrooms.
They'd never had that before but because the ladies came along,
they had mirrors in the bathrooms. And so
it's uh, that bit that together we can actually
affect absolutely massive change. But we have to
be prepared to do that. And the
problem that we face at the moment is that there are
(12:14):
too many that are comfortable
with the patriarchal society and
until we can make that uncomfortable,
then there's less likelihood that we're going to
move from that and just again looking a little
bit wider. If you think as a woman coming through any
business, if you're working in a team,
(12:34):
women are interrupted 33%
more times than the men.
And I think pretty much every woman that I've ever
worked with, ever coached, has told me
about the, the times when they've said something
it's been completely ignored and then a man has
presented it as their idea and immediately it's been uh, oh yeah, that's a
(12:54):
fantastic idea. Let's do that. And so it's
these key bits that we need to
realise that we have to watch. You
know, there is a bias for that
and we have to be aware of it.
>> Cornelia Rauble (13:08):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing that
because it, it reminds me of the book
the Authority Gap by Mary Ann Seagar. Are you
familiar with that one, Cornelia?
>> Laura Howard (13:19):
Yes, I am, yeah.
>> Cornelia Rauble (13:20):
Yeah, it's, it's a, a good,
a good favourite uh, of mine. I return to it
regularly and, and suggest it a lot to my,
to my clients. And you know,
I, I mirror what you said in that
a number of my clients tell me that
they've, their idea has been dismissed only to
(13:41):
be repeated laterally by a man.
The rubber stamp. So importantly, like
you say, this is not about
eradicating any singular group
from um, the workplace. This is
about recognising and there's a lot of science behind
this, that diverse uh,
(14:01):
boards make better informed decisions.
Their risk appetite is more
rounded, uh, across things
like um, if you think back to the Enron disaster,
so, so the leadership style that is theorised to
be more akin to, to the
feminine has been theorised to
(14:23):
be the antithesis to things like what
happened within Enron, for
example. And if you talk about
um, efficiencies and um, you know,
why on earth is a meeting allowed to go on three
times as long? Just, just so
uh, a man can give an idea that was
shared in the first five minutes of the meeting. You know, so
(14:45):
a efficiency gains across
businesses to be recognised with
a more level handed thinking
about this subject. You know, this isn't
he, he loses, she wins situation.
This is, this is about everyone
succeeding together. And the
more that um, practitioners and
(15:07):
researchers like you and I can
demonstrate this and help role model this as
external consultants, that's going to be a huge
catalyst to this being
extended more readily into all
these workplaces.
>> Laura Howard (15:22):
Yeah, absolutely. And the thing that always surprises
me, if you like, is that we know that having
balanced boards increases the bottom line of
the company so it's financially better to have
that balance. So why
is that such an issue? Have you come across anything
like that in your research?
>> Cornelia Rauble (15:41):
Uh, yes, yes, absolutely.
And what I wanted to speak to was a
point you made a few minutes ago, which is
a lot of organisational
systems and um, ways of working
have been traditionally emerged around
the masculine. So if you think about like
(16:02):
how decisions are made, for example,
um, it might have been outside in the
smoking shelter for instance,
historically, or on the golf
course or in Networking
meetings that tend to involve alcohol
and they tend to be after hours, this
after hours culture. So these are all
(16:24):
events and circumstances that by their
very nature tend to exclude
women because they're doing other priorities.
Particularly like. So think about the after hours
networking involving alcohol. You know, that
excludes a certain group. Um, and
particularly if you're a caregiver putting young children
to bed at that time. So, so
(16:46):
this um, theorised presenteeism
not only hurts women because we're out of the loop,
it's also hurting men because they're missing out on key
m. Touch points with their young children by feeling
that they need to be present in this way
to save face, to manage their
reputation across the business. Why, why
(17:07):
can't we do this in a more transparent and fair way
across all genders?
>> Laura Howard (17:12):
I agree. And I'm going to add another one to your list
of places that uh, the
promotions frequently happen because in the steel industry,
it was in the strip clubs.
>> Cornelia Rauble (17:22):
Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah.
>> Laura Howard (17:24):
Um, have whole stories to tell around that as well. But
um, and I agree with you about you know,
having the point that uh, men miss
out on, on some of the things with their,
their children that they, they want. And
it's quite funny actually because that plays into a story
I heard yesterday and I actually shared it this morning when
I, when I was networking. And it was
(17:47):
about a, A uh, very successful
musician, absolutely fantastic success.
And he decided he was going to take some time out and be
a house husband to look after his
son. And he was asked, are you really sure about this?
And he said absolutely. And everybody was agreed.
And he said he would take five years out because he'd
(18:08):
missed uh, all of those sort of
milestones of his first son and this was his second
son. And so he said, oh, I'm just gonna take five, five years
out, enjoy having my son.
And that was John Lennon and he was
killed when his son was five. And it puts it into
perspective because actually we don't know how much time
(18:28):
we are going to have here. So we need to be able
to support one another, to have the best life
possible. And it's by doing these things,
allowing, allowing people to be authentic and
to have integrity in that authenticity
to be the leaders or to do what they want to
do and support everybody else around them
(18:48):
and to bring everybody up with them
as well. And it shouldn't make any
difference who those people are.
>> Cornelia Rauble (18:56):
Uh, yeah, about those that can perform
and be motivational
to their teens.
For example, as you were talking there, I was
Thinking about some of our European
neighbours that of course have very different approaches
to paternity leave, paid
paternity leave, than we do. You know,
(19:17):
some of the Scandinavian countries have been held
as exemplars in this area and research
has shown that more time
spent with, in formative months
and years with their children,
um, has huge benefits, not only
for the father but as well as the child
(19:40):
emotionally and intellectually. And there's
just more freedom. We're much slower
on the uptake in this country in terms of the
formal paternity arrangements
and freedoms. It's getting better, but
progress has definitely been slower. Slower. It's
traditionally the female that has been the ultimate
(20:00):
caregiver and is the one that has traditionally
sacrificed a lot of their working
career. It's an either or
conversation often to be
a loving mother or a, um,
career person. You know, the, the, the two
are odd with one another and some of
(20:20):
my research demonstrated this
because women have stereotypically
been associated with those nurturing
and communal behaviours. So then if you
switch Personas into um, a
more traditional leadership figure that
is making difficult decisions
with, um, you know, vigour and
(20:43):
stamina, you're acting counter
stereotype. And therefore these
behaviours have been considered overtly
negative because the women are being judged
by the standard that exists
about what society says their traditional
behaviours are.
>> Laura Howard (21:01):
Yeah, I completely agree. Um, I
would argue that, um,
we all have masculine and feminine energy within
us. It depends on which one is more
apparent. And I'd also argue the fact that
if you look at behavioural styles, that is also
a key bit. So for most of my life I'm
(21:21):
very sort of relaxed and
in the green and very, uh, sort of
nurturing and I'm happy to do
that. However, if there is a crisis,
I go immediately into high red without any problem
whatsoever because it needs to be dealt
with quickly and we all have that capability
(21:42):
within us. Um, and I
don't think there is any right or wrong, but I
agree with you. You know, it's all about these labels. We
get labelled with different things
and they're supposed to, they're supposed to upset us, these
labels, because people wouldn't label you if they didn't
really want to sort of upset you. But it's really
(22:02):
difficult because you deal with things
as they come up and we're all capable
of doing that. But tradition tells
us that women should be nurturing
and kind and quiet. But that isn't all of us
and that isn't us all of the time. And
yeah, labelling is a construct of
(22:23):
control massively. Because if
you are told that you're expected to be nurturing
and then you're not, well then you get
called and labelled horrible things. So you get
called, you know, controlling all of the
negative things because actually that's a way to sort of
pull you back. So you, you, you know, you can't be ambitious. A
woman can never be ambitious. But I think if we look at
(22:45):
some of the women and, and what they've achieved, why
can't you be ambitious?
>> Cornelia Rauble (22:50):
Yeah, uh, when, when I speak to my um,
executive coaching clients, you know, we often talk about role
models and, and some of their,
their most highly regarded role
models are often them, their mother.
And that's great. It could be
a, uh, uh, celebrity or an author, you know, someone
that's existed in this, in this space. And
(23:13):
definitely looking at role model behaviours
helps us think differently about being
um, about feeling unsafe. And when we talk
about control, it's that psychological
unsafe aspect that, that
I'm speaking to. Psychological safety is a
massive factor. It's been proven
(23:35):
to support high performing workplaces
and you paint a picture there of a low performing
workplace if you can't be yourself,
if you're being controlled because therefore
ambition isn't rewarded or celebrated.
This speaks to a low performing
organisation.
>> Laura Howard (23:54):
Yeah, I agree with you. Psychological safety is
such a key area and it's, it's one of
those ones that many companies like to say, oh yes,
we've, we've got that. But then when you start to
talk to their workforce you find out that
they don't feel safe.
>> Cornelia Rauble (24:10):
Yeah.
>> Laura Howard (24:11):
And I just wanted to touch on something that you mentioned
earlier. You know, we've talked a little bit about bias,
um, and there are too few women
in those positions to be role models. And
the key bits, and the reason I bring it up is because
like will hire like. So if we
have lots of white males doing the
(24:31):
hiring process, then that's what you're going to get out
of it. And it's not saying that white
males can't hire women because of course they can,
but it's just being aware of that, that
bias towards hiring somebody that looks like
them.
>> Cornelia Rauble (24:46):
Yeah, yeah, we call that affinity bias, don't we?
And not only in human
selection and assessment, but it's been
proven that AI now
is, is teaching itself via machine
learning that a certain type of CV
is good for a certain type of job. And
(25:07):
guess what? It's teaching itself
that university educated white
males, um, perpetuate certain
skills because that's the data that the
machines have been ploughing back into the system. Them.
And these are some of the hesitations around
how, um, AI is, is sort of making
(25:27):
this patriarchal situation
worse, unfortunately. Yeah.
>> Laura Howard (25:32):
Ah, well, I'm very fortunate to be connected
to quite a number of absolute,
major fantastic women who are
in the AI space that are on a mission
to make it less biassed than it is.
Uh, this will make you laugh. Um, so I'm heavily involved
in ice hockey and I was trying
(25:52):
to. To. We only have a poster of, of the
ice hockey kit for a boy, but
it does vary slightly for girls.
And uh, so I was trying to make a poster with a girl in
it. So. AI, you know, can, can you create this?
Well, the things that came out of it, I mean, it, it was
just, it was boys or men's
(26:13):
faces, just sort of feminised, but you
could still see that it was a male body and
not a female body. And it was, it was so funny.
I, after, I think I gave up after about an hour and
I just thought, this is not going to happen. Uh, I need to take,
go and take a picture of one of the absolutely amazing female
ice hockey players because that's far better than this
(26:33):
and I can do that quicker.
>> Cornelia Rauble (26:35):
Yes, yes. Than the machine.
And I guess we've talked, Cornelia,
about a lot of the barriers. Maybe it's
useful at this stage, uh, for our
listeners is to talk about
how we address those barriers collectively.
What would be your sort of major
(26:56):
remarks about that?
>> Laura Howard (26:57):
I think the thing that first comes to mind,
um, and again, I've had a number of my clients that
have said exactly the same thing. I think
that women who are in a position of
leadership need to be the ones that are, uh, uh, holding
the hand out to the women coming after them.
Um, I've had a number of situations where I've been
(27:18):
stabbed in the back. Uh, I know others have as well.
And for me, that I find that sad
because it's almost that sort of, that bit. Well, I
struggled, so why shouldn't you? But we
should actually be turning and helping others to
come up as well, because it will make life
better for everybody and it will
(27:38):
across the board, men, women, business better.
Um, and so I think we need to, to do
things that will support that.
>> Cornelia Rauble (27:46):
Yeah, I agree. And as you were talking
there, it made me think of a recent news article.
I read the present
female CEO of Nationwide bank
had ordered a, uh, return to work,
physical return to the office,
um, sort of mandating that the employees
(28:06):
returned from Their previous
hybrid and flexible working model.
Now, interestingly, the, the former CEO, uh,
was a male, but seemingly had
spearheaded this flexible working
policy which we know benefits everyone,
but specifically returning to the office
(28:27):
excludes caregivers from doing
intellectual work that otherwise they are
extremely capable of,
but suddenly excluded from a
workplace because it now needs to take place in a
physical environment. That's being mandated
here. So, so that just struck me as a real
backward step. And, and they call this
(28:49):
sort of queen, queen bee syndrome, don't they,
what we're speaking to. And
I would really like to see all
groups but women lifting
women. Um, if you think about the work that
Jacinda Arden did and I talk about,
as I said a few minutes ago, role models. You know, this is
(29:10):
a, this is a deeply inspirational,
uh, you know, head of. Head of office doing
phenomenal work on behalf of herself,
uh, uh, her. Huh. Government
and other women as well. And that was a deep shame
when she felt she had to resign, in my
opinion.
>> Laura Howard (29:27):
Yeah, I agree. You said
about the return to being physically
in the office affecting caregivers. And of
course that can be both men and women, because it's not
just exclusively going to be women. Uh, and I know
quite a few single dads that really
value being able to do the school run,
(29:47):
to do all those things, go to football matches,
uh, and that sort of thing. So again, it
comes down to the fact that if we move from this
patriarchal society to one that is
a bit more embracing, then we all
benefit.
>> Cornelia Rauble (30:03):
Yeah, absolutely. I can't, I can't find
one singular downside
of, of this progression that we, that we speak of.
Those that have been vocal about a more
a, uh, more equitable society.
I fear that comes from an insecurity, from, from
a deep insecurity.
>> Laura Howard (30:22):
Is it just insecurity or is it also a
bit of being blinkered a little bit? Because if you are
white, uh, and male, do you actually notice those things
going, going around you? Because, Because I've had
men say to me, well, you know, it's much better
now. Surely there isn't that sort of problem. What have you
found?
>> Cornelia Rauble (30:40):
Yeah, that's. That's right. I, I attended
networking recently and I explained
to the person who happens to be male what, what my profession
was. And he, he said he still. Is that still,
still necessary? Do we still have a gender pay
gap? And I
explained some of what we've just been talking about for the past
(31:01):
several minutes. And the more that we can have
these conversations, it really does bring
to life in a 3D way
what women are facing in the organisation,
in the organisational world. I have two daughters
and the reason I do the profession that I do
is, is because I don't want them to experience
(31:22):
the struggles and the
lethargy, the absolute um,
burnout that I experienced in my
early career because of the
hurdles that uh, are extra, you know, this is
extra work. Let's think
about then what men and women
(31:43):
listening to this could practically
do to challenge this system
of patriarchy that's existing across many
organisations and societies.
>> Laura Howard (31:54):
Then.
>> Cornelia Rauble (31:55):
What do you think about that?
>> Laura Howard (31:56):
I think the key thing is to talk about it.
So I think, you know, podcasts and conversations like this
are incredibly important. Um, and
I think it's almost that bit of we have to,
we have to call it out every time we see it.
>> Cornelia Rauble (32:11):
Yeah.
>> Laura Howard (32:11):
We have to sort of say, well hang on a minute, that's not right.
And you have to be brave to do that because it's not sort
of the easy thing. It's much easier to sort of say, oh well yeah,
it's not my problem, why should I say anything about
it? You know, I'm um, I'm um, not in corporate any
longer, but I still have a real strong
desire to help as many people as possible
(32:32):
to actually succeed. And I think it's that
bit of saying, well no, um, hang on a minute, this isn't right.
Why should we accept this? Is there a better way?
And I think that's an easy question to ask. Is there a better
way?
>> Cornelia Rauble (32:44):
Yeah, that's a very non
gendered question which
situates the improvement in the
organisation's hands. For example, if we're talking
about workplaces and
definitely challenging situations throughout
conversations in a way that feels
proportionate. So I couldn't help think of an
(33:06):
example when you were talking of a
client company and um, just
a simple thing like ordering the buffet for
the corporate event. Now this is often
important work, but work that
goes unrewarded and unrecognised
and tends to fall to
(33:26):
uh, females in lower ranking
positions. So you know,
let's challenge that. Is that appropriate for that person
to do that task? Another, another great thing
is, is sponsorship. So it's, it's often
uh, a bit of an Americanism, but, but
how can you offer your sponsorship or
(33:46):
mentorship to a younger person?
So that is a great overt sign
that you're saying, actually I want to invest in this person.
This person has all the qualities
to aspire and grow to be
bigger in this organisation. So that sends a
great signal to the rest of the business
(34:07):
saying that everyone here has a chance and
it's that opportunity for
promotion and growth that, uh, everyone should have the
opportunity to grasp and move to.
>> Laura Howard (34:19):
Yeah, I agree. And I think that takes us very nicely
back round to psychological safety, because
it's having that psychological safety at play in
the company that will allow that to happen.
Because if you don't have that, people aren't going to step
forward and start challenging because they'd be
afraid of losing their job.
>> Cornelia Rauble (34:38):
Yeah, um, uh, absolutely. And, um,
psychological safety can come through
a sum of many parts, you know, and we can do that
in workplaces through, like, employee
resource groups and communities of practise, for
example. So these are great ways to
share, debate and spearhead
(34:59):
issues that impact psychological safety.
Not only gendered issues, but for other
minoritized groups across the
organisation.
>> Laura Howard (35:08):
Yeah, um, I agree. I think we could talk about this for
absolutely hours. Um, but I think we probably
have to finish. But it's been absolutely great talking to you,
Laura. I've really enjoyed, uh, exchanging ideas with you
and hearing about your experience of it.
>> Cornelia Rauble (35:22):
Yeah, yeah, likewise. Cornu. Thank you very
much. I've very much enjoyed our, uh, uh,
conversation. I hope to speak soon.
>> Andrew Jacobs (35:32):
What a fascinating episode. Did you agree with
our guests? Please do let us know,
Paul. Cornelia had a huge coughing fit
during the recording, but both of them were real
professionals and continued. A
massive thank you to both Laura and and
Cornelia for their time in recording this and for
sharing their points of view with us. There are,
(35:54):
as you would expect, dozens of links in the show notes for this
episode, along with the contact details for our guests.
We're back in a couple of weeks and next time it's
the HR one. As always,
thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon.
>> Cornelia Rauble (36:16):
Sa.
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the
Patriarchy one of the Women Talking About Learning
podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. This is the
115th episode of the podcast and
Patriarchy is a topic that we've wanted to record for
a while, especially since the whole point of the
podcast is to actively challenge and um, promote women's
voices. We didn't know where our guests would take this conversation and it
(00:34):
was great to hear their insightful views and opinions.
Our first guest is Laura Howard. Laura's
passion and professional purpose is making work
work for everyone, leaders, teams and
customers. After a 20 year global
career in the private and public sectors, including
10 years as a senior leader, she qualified as
(00:54):
an organisational psychologist in 2022.
This led her to launch the Contented workplace,
fulfilling her ambitions for everyone to be their best
and bring that best to work. Our
second guest is Cornelia Rauble. Cornelia
is a former nine figure CEO, certified
NLP and strategic leadership coach who
(01:16):
specialises in helping ambitious women become board ready
in six months. With a unique blend
of commercial insight and mindset transformation,
she equips professionals to lead with confidence,
clarity and impact. Her uh, work is grounded
in behavioural science and executive experience.
And whether in the boardroom or on stage,
(01:36):
she empowers leaders to own their voice, develop
the mindset and strategy that delivers
results and achieve measurable growth.
Recorded in May of this year. This is women
talking about learning. This is Laura and
Cornelia talking about patriarchy.
>> Laura Howard (01:53):
Hi Laura, good to see you. How are you?
>> Cornelia Rauble (01:56):
Hi Cornelia. I'm great, thank you.
Today the sun is shining in uh,
Derbyshire. How are you doing today?
>> Laura Howard (02:05):
I'm doing okay, but it's not quite as sunny. It's ah, a bit
overcast today and it was really cold this morning when I got up at
5:30, so um, it's not quite as
cold. So Laura, why did you want
to come and talk about the patriarchy?
>> Cornelia Rauble (02:20):
I've been a, uh, Women in Leadership
specialist for several years now
and my passion for this area
grew out of my early career
where I was very unconscious about
emerging biases that I faced
in leadership. So, so I'm sure we'll get onto
(02:42):
these. But these sorts of scars, if you
like, have fueled my interest
in researching and
practising this subject.
And it's one that I enjoy speaking about
and working with, um, female
leaders across things like confidence
(03:02):
imposter, uh, syndrome,
um, and all these
complex topics that when we hit
the nail of, can really elevate uh,
a woman's experience in the workplace. I'M sure we'll get
into that shortly.
And how about you tell me what brings you to this,
uh, episode of the podcast, Cornelia?
>> Laura Howard (03:25):
Well, this was one I was really keen on doing. Um,
so if I tell you a little bit about my early career, that will
probably put everything in context.
So I spent nearly 20 years in the
steel industry, which was
incredibly male dominated.
Um, and although I didn't really realise,
(03:45):
like yourself at the time, about bias,
I didn't really pay that much attention to it. I
think is probably true.
Um, I found as I went
through the industry that there were
fewer and fewer and fewer women.
And so I was, um,
a CEO, chief executive officer of
(04:08):
a company that had an annual turnover of a quarter of
a billion US dollars. And I was
always the only woman in the room. And I
could guarantee that some, if I was having a meeting with
somebody, um, at some point one
of the men would turn to me and say, oh, could you make us a cup
of coffee, love? And it used to be my great
(04:28):
pleasure to then turn to one of the, uh, male
traders to say, could you go and get us a cup of coffee, please?
Um, and it's that, you know, the
bias that a woman in the room has got to be
a secretary. Um, so that was the start
of it. That was the foundation. And
now I coach, I coach leaders.
(04:49):
Um, but I have a very big interest in
helping women to get onto boards to
run their own companies. Um, and I really
would like to see far more women on
boards than Steve's and Dave's, because there are more
Steves and Dave's on boards than there are
women. And so that for me is
a really key, key bit.
>> Cornelia Rauble (05:11):
Yeah, gosh, yeah, you paint a very visceral
picture there of, um, being sat at
that board table. And
I did some research recently as part
of my thesis for my MAST in
Organisational Psychology. And my
subject was around women
(05:32):
leadership and women leading
authentically. Could they feel
like they were bringing their entire selves
to work? So what you speak to in terms of
being assumed, the secretary
was very much still alive
in the research that I did two years
(05:52):
ago. Um, and what I'm
interested in is how that made you feel,
because. Yeah, just tell me more about that
experience. Where were you feeling that in your
body?
>> Laura Howard (06:06):
Oh, so for me,
if that had been earlier in my career, and I
was affected by it earlier in my
career and I did struggle with it, but I actually
had a point where
it's probably a bit too long a story for the podcast, but,
um, I was really bullied
(06:28):
by a particular, ah, person. And,
um, it was that point where I could either
run away and go and do something completely different,
never go back again, or I could stand and
basically fight. And I chose to stand and
fight and not let them win.
So I had a lot of internal reserves, a lot
(06:49):
of. I wouldn't have said particularly confidence if you'd
asked me. Um, but
I'm a fairly strong person in any case, so
I managed to fight my way through.
Um, and I was very fortunate. I had people around me,
particularly my husband, who was able to
give me his viewpoint on
(07:10):
how would a man see this, what would you do,
how could you make it better? And all of those sort of things. So
he was my real sounding board that I could just
sort of throw ideas at.
Um, but I know that there are so many other
women, because I've worked with so many of them, that
find that incredibly difficult and
(07:30):
tend to retreat a little bit because
it's just too much and they don't want to have to
have that fight. And I agree with them. Why should they have that fight?
Um, and
it's a really key thing, looking just not only
from the point of view of women and the patriarchal society,
(07:51):
but also going wider into
diversity. It's such a big thing.
It affects so many different things.
>> Cornelia Rauble (07:59):
Yeah, absolutely. And
what we see, um, the reported
gender pay gap as
supposedly shrinking. However,
um, if you look at the data for more
senior executives at the
organisation, that is where the gap is
greatest. And
(08:21):
data suggests that there's, um,
an improvement on women
on boards. But we know when it comes to
those chair positions or the CEO
positions, there's little
movement and the numbers
are sticking at remarkably low. I think
(08:42):
it's about, uh, it's between 14 and
18% at the latest, um,
research that I studied there.
So lots of
truisms around the
patriarchy society that
is, uh, abhorrent in how
(09:02):
women are forming their careers.
And talk about different
individual differences as well,
across, across women.
Um, and you've got intersections with,
you know, lgbtq, uh,
individuals or people of
colour. And when I. This came up
(09:25):
when I did my research as well,
because, you know, young
Black woman raising into
a career in law, for example. One
of my participants was asked if they spoke English.
Well, of course, the answer was a
categoric yes. Why would this woman
(09:45):
be applying for a job in English language,
uh, without that skill? And
this same person speaks of
confidence and a relaxed attitude.
Now she's deeper and further on in her career because
she knows her strength. She knows her
contribution. But if you're a younger
(10:08):
person, you know, with um, dependence with,
with a team, with a, a big
mortgage, you know, these are real
issues that, that force you into
um, fitting into a, a
stereotype and toeing the line that that
means, you know, your job isn't going to be at risk for
(10:28):
speaking out.
>> Laura Howard (10:31):
I agree. And that's what keeps so many women
silent. And as we said across, across the
board when we're talking about diversity.
But I think the key thing to say
in, in this is that I don't think
we should get rid of men. Um, I think we should
recognise that a
lot of our society is actually built on
(10:54):
things that have been created for men by men.
Um, and you know, you can look at some of the things like
was it crash, um, test
dummies?
>> Cornelia Rauble (11:03):
Yeah.
>> Laura Howard (11:04):
I mean it's only recently that they've, they've been
making them so that it fits the
physique of a woman or a pregnant woman
or things like that. And so it's
realising that that's where we are at the moment. But
it's also a case of I think, not
throwing everything out with that because
there are a lot of very good uh,
(11:27):
allies amongst the men. So
I just want to share a little story on that because, um,
I went to a, ah, collegiate university
and I was one of the first 20 women into an
all male college. Uh, wow.
And I can remember this very clearly because
the majority of them were so happy that we had
(11:48):
joined the college. Do you want to know why?
>> Cornelia Rauble (11:50):
Go on. Yes. I'm on the edge of my seat.
>> Laura Howard (11:53):
Because they got mirrors in their bathrooms.
They'd never had that before but because the ladies came along,
they had mirrors in the bathrooms. And so
it's uh, that bit that together we can actually
affect absolutely massive change. But we have to
be prepared to do that. And the
problem that we face at the moment is that there are
(12:14):
too many that are comfortable
with the patriarchal society and
until we can make that uncomfortable,
then there's less likelihood that we're going to
move from that and just again looking a little
bit wider. If you think as a woman coming through any
business, if you're working in a team,
(12:34):
women are interrupted 33%
more times than the men.
And I think pretty much every woman that I've ever
worked with, ever coached, has told me
about the, the times when they've said something
it's been completely ignored and then a man has
presented it as their idea and immediately it's been uh, oh yeah, that's a
(12:54):
fantastic idea. Let's do that. And so it's
these key bits that we need to
realise that we have to watch. You
know, there is a bias for that
and we have to be aware of it.
>> Cornelia Rauble (13:08):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing that
because it, it reminds me of the book
the Authority Gap by Mary Ann Seagar. Are you
familiar with that one, Cornelia?
>> Laura Howard (13:19):
Yes, I am, yeah.
>> Cornelia Rauble (13:20):
Yeah, it's, it's a, a good,
a good favourite uh, of mine. I return to it
regularly and, and suggest it a lot to my,
to my clients. And you know,
I, I mirror what you said in that
a number of my clients tell me that
they've, their idea has been dismissed only to
(13:41):
be repeated laterally by a man.
The rubber stamp. So importantly, like
you say, this is not about
eradicating any singular group
from um, the workplace. This is
about recognising and there's a lot of science behind
this, that diverse uh,
(14:01):
boards make better informed decisions.
Their risk appetite is more
rounded, uh, across things
like um, if you think back to the Enron disaster,
so, so the leadership style that is theorised to
be more akin to, to the
feminine has been theorised to
(14:23):
be the antithesis to things like what
happened within Enron, for
example. And if you talk about
um, efficiencies and um, you know,
why on earth is a meeting allowed to go on three
times as long? Just, just so
uh, a man can give an idea that was
shared in the first five minutes of the meeting. You know, so
(14:45):
a efficiency gains across
businesses to be recognised with
a more level handed thinking
about this subject. You know, this isn't
he, he loses, she wins situation.
This is, this is about everyone
succeeding together. And the
more that um, practitioners and
(15:07):
researchers like you and I can
demonstrate this and help role model this as
external consultants, that's going to be a huge
catalyst to this being
extended more readily into all
these workplaces.
>> Laura Howard (15:22):
Yeah, absolutely. And the thing that always surprises
me, if you like, is that we know that having
balanced boards increases the bottom line of
the company so it's financially better to have
that balance. So why
is that such an issue? Have you come across anything
like that in your research?
>> Cornelia Rauble (15:41):
Uh, yes, yes, absolutely.
And what I wanted to speak to was a
point you made a few minutes ago, which is
a lot of organisational
systems and um, ways of working
have been traditionally emerged around
the masculine. So if you think about like
(16:02):
how decisions are made, for example,
um, it might have been outside in the
smoking shelter for instance,
historically, or on the golf
course or in Networking
meetings that tend to involve alcohol
and they tend to be after hours, this
after hours culture. So these are all
(16:24):
events and circumstances that by their
very nature tend to exclude
women because they're doing other priorities.
Particularly like. So think about the after hours
networking involving alcohol. You know, that
excludes a certain group. Um, and
particularly if you're a caregiver putting young children
to bed at that time. So, so
(16:46):
this um, theorised presenteeism
not only hurts women because we're out of the loop,
it's also hurting men because they're missing out on key
m. Touch points with their young children by feeling
that they need to be present in this way
to save face, to manage their
reputation across the business. Why, why
(17:07):
can't we do this in a more transparent and fair way
across all genders?
>> Laura Howard (17:12):
I agree. And I'm going to add another one to your list
of places that uh, the
promotions frequently happen because in the steel industry,
it was in the strip clubs.
>> Cornelia Rauble (17:22):
Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah.
>> Laura Howard (17:24):
Um, have whole stories to tell around that as well. But
um, and I agree with you about you know,
having the point that uh, men miss
out on, on some of the things with their,
their children that they, they want. And
it's quite funny actually because that plays into a story
I heard yesterday and I actually shared it this morning when
I, when I was networking. And it was
(17:47):
about a, A uh, very successful
musician, absolutely fantastic success.
And he decided he was going to take some time out and be
a house husband to look after his
son. And he was asked, are you really sure about this?
And he said absolutely. And everybody was agreed.
And he said he would take five years out because he'd
(18:08):
missed uh, all of those sort of
milestones of his first son and this was his second
son. And so he said, oh, I'm just gonna take five, five years
out, enjoy having my son.
And that was John Lennon and he was
killed when his son was five. And it puts it into
perspective because actually we don't know how much time
(18:28):
we are going to have here. So we need to be able
to support one another, to have the best life
possible. And it's by doing these things,
allowing, allowing people to be authentic and
to have integrity in that authenticity
to be the leaders or to do what they want to
do and support everybody else around them
(18:48):
and to bring everybody up with them
as well. And it shouldn't make any
difference who those people are.
>> Cornelia Rauble (18:56):
Uh, yeah, about those that can perform
and be motivational
to their teens.
For example, as you were talking there, I was
Thinking about some of our European
neighbours that of course have very different approaches
to paternity leave, paid
paternity leave, than we do. You know,
(19:17):
some of the Scandinavian countries have been held
as exemplars in this area and research
has shown that more time
spent with, in formative months
and years with their children,
um, has huge benefits, not only
for the father but as well as the child
(19:40):
emotionally and intellectually. And there's
just more freedom. We're much slower
on the uptake in this country in terms of the
formal paternity arrangements
and freedoms. It's getting better, but
progress has definitely been slower. Slower. It's
traditionally the female that has been the ultimate
(20:00):
caregiver and is the one that has traditionally
sacrificed a lot of their working
career. It's an either or
conversation often to be
a loving mother or a, um,
career person. You know, the, the, the two
are odd with one another and some of
(20:20):
my research demonstrated this
because women have stereotypically
been associated with those nurturing
and communal behaviours. So then if you
switch Personas into um, a
more traditional leadership figure that
is making difficult decisions
with, um, you know, vigour and
(20:43):
stamina, you're acting counter
stereotype. And therefore these
behaviours have been considered overtly
negative because the women are being judged
by the standard that exists
about what society says their traditional
behaviours are.
>> Laura Howard (21:01):
Yeah, I completely agree. Um, I
would argue that, um,
we all have masculine and feminine energy within
us. It depends on which one is more
apparent. And I'd also argue the fact that
if you look at behavioural styles, that is also
a key bit. So for most of my life I'm
(21:21):
very sort of relaxed and
in the green and very, uh, sort of
nurturing and I'm happy to do
that. However, if there is a crisis,
I go immediately into high red without any problem
whatsoever because it needs to be dealt
with quickly and we all have that capability
(21:42):
within us. Um, and I
don't think there is any right or wrong, but I
agree with you. You know, it's all about these labels. We
get labelled with different things
and they're supposed to, they're supposed to upset us, these
labels, because people wouldn't label you if they didn't
really want to sort of upset you. But it's really
(22:02):
difficult because you deal with things
as they come up and we're all capable
of doing that. But tradition tells
us that women should be nurturing
and kind and quiet. But that isn't all of us
and that isn't us all of the time. And
yeah, labelling is a construct of
(22:23):
control massively. Because if
you are told that you're expected to be nurturing
and then you're not, well then you get
called and labelled horrible things. So you get
called, you know, controlling all of the
negative things because actually that's a way to sort of
pull you back. So you, you, you know, you can't be ambitious. A
woman can never be ambitious. But I think if we look at
(22:45):
some of the women and, and what they've achieved, why
can't you be ambitious?
>> Cornelia Rauble (22:50):
Yeah, uh, when, when I speak to my um,
executive coaching clients, you know, we often talk about role
models and, and some of their,
their most highly regarded role
models are often them, their mother.
And that's great. It could be
a, uh, uh, celebrity or an author, you know, someone
that's existed in this, in this space. And
(23:13):
definitely looking at role model behaviours
helps us think differently about being
um, about feeling unsafe. And when we talk
about control, it's that psychological
unsafe aspect that, that
I'm speaking to. Psychological safety is a
massive factor. It's been proven
(23:35):
to support high performing workplaces
and you paint a picture there of a low performing
workplace if you can't be yourself,
if you're being controlled because therefore
ambition isn't rewarded or celebrated.
This speaks to a low performing
organisation.
>> Laura Howard (23:54):
Yeah, I agree with you. Psychological safety is
such a key area and it's, it's one of
those ones that many companies like to say, oh yes,
we've, we've got that. But then when you start to
talk to their workforce you find out that
they don't feel safe.
>> Cornelia Rauble (24:10):
Yeah.
>> Laura Howard (24:11):
And I just wanted to touch on something that you mentioned
earlier. You know, we've talked a little bit about bias,
um, and there are too few women
in those positions to be role models. And
the key bits, and the reason I bring it up is because
like will hire like. So if we
have lots of white males doing the
(24:31):
hiring process, then that's what you're going to get out
of it. And it's not saying that white
males can't hire women because of course they can,
but it's just being aware of that, that
bias towards hiring somebody that looks like
them.
>> Cornelia Rauble (24:46):
Yeah, yeah, we call that affinity bias, don't we?
And not only in human
selection and assessment, but it's been
proven that AI now
is, is teaching itself via machine
learning that a certain type of CV
is good for a certain type of job. And
(25:07):
guess what? It's teaching itself
that university educated white
males, um, perpetuate certain
skills because that's the data that the
machines have been ploughing back into the system. Them.
And these are some of the hesitations around
how, um, AI is, is sort of making
(25:27):
this patriarchal situation
worse, unfortunately. Yeah.
>> Laura Howard (25:32):
Ah, well, I'm very fortunate to be connected
to quite a number of absolute,
major fantastic women who are
in the AI space that are on a mission
to make it less biassed than it is.
Uh, this will make you laugh. Um, so I'm heavily involved
in ice hockey and I was trying
(25:52):
to. To. We only have a poster of, of the
ice hockey kit for a boy, but
it does vary slightly for girls.
And uh, so I was trying to make a poster with a girl in
it. So. AI, you know, can, can you create this?
Well, the things that came out of it, I mean, it, it was
just, it was boys or men's
(26:13):
faces, just sort of feminised, but you
could still see that it was a male body and
not a female body. And it was, it was so funny.
I, after, I think I gave up after about an hour and
I just thought, this is not going to happen. Uh, I need to take,
go and take a picture of one of the absolutely amazing female
ice hockey players because that's far better than this
(26:33):
and I can do that quicker.
>> Cornelia Rauble (26:35):
Yes, yes. Than the machine.
And I guess we've talked, Cornelia,
about a lot of the barriers. Maybe it's
useful at this stage, uh, for our
listeners is to talk about
how we address those barriers collectively.
What would be your sort of major
(26:56):
remarks about that?
>> Laura Howard (26:57):
I think the thing that first comes to mind,
um, and again, I've had a number of my clients that
have said exactly the same thing. I think
that women who are in a position of
leadership need to be the ones that are, uh, uh, holding
the hand out to the women coming after them.
Um, I've had a number of situations where I've been
(27:18):
stabbed in the back. Uh, I know others have as well.
And for me, that I find that sad
because it's almost that sort of, that bit. Well, I
struggled, so why shouldn't you? But we
should actually be turning and helping others to
come up as well, because it will make life
better for everybody and it will
(27:38):
across the board, men, women, business better.
Um, and so I think we need to, to do
things that will support that.
>> Cornelia Rauble (27:46):
Yeah, I agree. And as you were talking
there, it made me think of a recent news article.
I read the present
female CEO of Nationwide bank
had ordered a, uh, return to work,
physical return to the office,
um, sort of mandating that the employees
(28:06):
returned from Their previous
hybrid and flexible working model.
Now, interestingly, the, the former CEO, uh,
was a male, but seemingly had
spearheaded this flexible working
policy which we know benefits everyone,
but specifically returning to the office
(28:27):
excludes caregivers from doing
intellectual work that otherwise they are
extremely capable of,
but suddenly excluded from a
workplace because it now needs to take place in a
physical environment. That's being mandated
here. So, so that just struck me as a real
backward step. And, and they call this
(28:49):
sort of queen, queen bee syndrome, don't they,
what we're speaking to. And
I would really like to see all
groups but women lifting
women. Um, if you think about the work that
Jacinda Arden did and I talk about,
as I said a few minutes ago, role models. You know, this is
(29:10):
a, this is a deeply inspirational,
uh, you know, head of. Head of office doing
phenomenal work on behalf of herself,
uh, uh, her. Huh. Government
and other women as well. And that was a deep shame
when she felt she had to resign, in my
opinion.
>> Laura Howard (29:27):
Yeah, I agree. You said
about the return to being physically
in the office affecting caregivers. And of
course that can be both men and women, because it's not
just exclusively going to be women. Uh, and I know
quite a few single dads that really
value being able to do the school run,
(29:47):
to do all those things, go to football matches,
uh, and that sort of thing. So again, it
comes down to the fact that if we move from this
patriarchal society to one that is
a bit more embracing, then we all
benefit.
>> Cornelia Rauble (30:03):
Yeah, absolutely. I can't, I can't find
one singular downside
of, of this progression that we, that we speak of.
Those that have been vocal about a more
a, uh, more equitable society.
I fear that comes from an insecurity, from, from
a deep insecurity.
>> Laura Howard (30:22):
Is it just insecurity or is it also a
bit of being blinkered a little bit? Because if you are
white, uh, and male, do you actually notice those things
going, going around you? Because, Because I've had
men say to me, well, you know, it's much better
now. Surely there isn't that sort of problem. What have you
found?
>> Cornelia Rauble (30:40):
Yeah, that's. That's right. I, I attended
networking recently and I explained
to the person who happens to be male what, what my profession
was. And he, he said he still. Is that still,
still necessary? Do we still have a gender pay
gap? And I
explained some of what we've just been talking about for the past
(31:01):
several minutes. And the more that we can have
these conversations, it really does bring
to life in a 3D way
what women are facing in the organisation,
in the organisational world. I have two daughters
and the reason I do the profession that I do
is, is because I don't want them to experience
(31:22):
the struggles and the
lethargy, the absolute um,
burnout that I experienced in my
early career because of the
hurdles that uh, are extra, you know, this is
extra work. Let's think
about then what men and women
(31:43):
listening to this could practically
do to challenge this system
of patriarchy that's existing across many
organisations and societies.
>> Laura Howard (31:54):
Then.
>> Cornelia Rauble (31:55):
What do you think about that?
>> Laura Howard (31:56):
I think the key thing is to talk about it.
So I think, you know, podcasts and conversations like this
are incredibly important. Um, and
I think it's almost that bit of we have to,
we have to call it out every time we see it.
>> Cornelia Rauble (32:11):
Yeah.
>> Laura Howard (32:11):
We have to sort of say, well hang on a minute, that's not right.
And you have to be brave to do that because it's not sort
of the easy thing. It's much easier to sort of say, oh well yeah,
it's not my problem, why should I say anything about
it? You know, I'm um, I'm um, not in corporate any
longer, but I still have a real strong
desire to help as many people as possible
(32:32):
to actually succeed. And I think it's that
bit of saying, well no, um, hang on a minute, this isn't right.
Why should we accept this? Is there a better way?
And I think that's an easy question to ask. Is there a better
way?
>> Cornelia Rauble (32:44):
Yeah, that's a very non
gendered question which
situates the improvement in the
organisation's hands. For example, if we're talking
about workplaces and
definitely challenging situations throughout
conversations in a way that feels
proportionate. So I couldn't help think of an
(33:06):
example when you were talking of a
client company and um, just
a simple thing like ordering the buffet for
the corporate event. Now this is often
important work, but work that
goes unrewarded and unrecognised
and tends to fall to
(33:26):
uh, females in lower ranking
positions. So you know,
let's challenge that. Is that appropriate for that person
to do that task? Another, another great thing
is, is sponsorship. So it's, it's often
uh, a bit of an Americanism, but, but
how can you offer your sponsorship or
(33:46):
mentorship to a younger person?
So that is a great overt sign
that you're saying, actually I want to invest in this person.
This person has all the qualities
to aspire and grow to be
bigger in this organisation. So that sends a
great signal to the rest of the business
(34:07):
saying that everyone here has a chance and
it's that opportunity for
promotion and growth that, uh, everyone should have the
opportunity to grasp and move to.
>> Laura Howard (34:19):
Yeah, I agree. And I think that takes us very nicely
back round to psychological safety, because
it's having that psychological safety at play in
the company that will allow that to happen.
Because if you don't have that, people aren't going to step
forward and start challenging because they'd be
afraid of losing their job.
>> Cornelia Rauble (34:38):
Yeah, um, uh, absolutely. And, um,
psychological safety can come through
a sum of many parts, you know, and we can do that
in workplaces through, like, employee
resource groups and communities of practise, for
example. So these are great ways to
share, debate and spearhead
(34:59):
issues that impact psychological safety.
Not only gendered issues, but for other
minoritized groups across the
organisation.
>> Laura Howard (35:08):
Yeah, um, I agree. I think we could talk about this for
absolutely hours. Um, but I think we probably
have to finish. But it's been absolutely great talking to you,
Laura. I've really enjoyed, uh, exchanging ideas with you
and hearing about your experience of it.
>> Cornelia Rauble (35:22):
Yeah, yeah, likewise. Cornu. Thank you very
much. I've very much enjoyed our, uh, uh,
conversation. I hope to speak soon.
>> Andrew Jacobs (35:32):
What a fascinating episode. Did you agree with
our guests? Please do let us know,
Paul. Cornelia had a huge coughing fit
during the recording, but both of them were real
professionals and continued. A
massive thank you to both Laura and and
Cornelia for their time in recording this and for
sharing their points of view with us. There are,
(35:54):
as you would expect, dozens of links in the show notes for this
episode, along with the contact details for our guests.
We're back in a couple of weeks and next time it's
the HR one. As always,
thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon.
>> Cornelia Rauble (36:16):
Sa.
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