May 13, 2025 • 36 mins
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Episode Links:
What Job Seekers Really Want in 2025
Employees Seek Personal Value and Purpose at Work. Be Prepared to Deliver.
The Surprising Benefits of Work/Life Support
Stress, overwork and poor work-life balance undermine UK job quality
Nine in 10 women experience mental ill-health from poor work-life balance, study shows
Exploring the Impact of COVID‐19 on Employees’ Boundary Management and Work–Life Balance
Work-Life Balance vs Work-Life Fluidity: What's the Difference?
Women value work-life balance more unless managers
‘Work-life balance is a lie’: women in business urged to stop trying to have it all
“There is no such thing as work-life balance. Everything worth fighting for unbalances your life.”
Self-Confidence and Work-Life Balance: Nurturing Personal Well-being.
AI anxiety: The workers who fear losing their jobs to artificial intelligence
This week’s first guest is Kim Edwards. Kim leads several of Getty Images’ learning and leadership initiatives, designing meaningful and memorable learning moments for 1,800 employees globally. Whether that’s crafting the company
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Kim (00:20):
It's so nice to meet you, Kavita. I'm looking forward to our
conversation today.
>> Kavita (00:24):
I'm excited for this one. I think this is such an important subject
as something that is so needed to
talk about at this stage. Definitely,
definitely.
>> Kim (00:33):
And work life balance means something different to so many
people, doesn't it?
>> Kavita (00:38):
Yeah, I think it's very, um. For me it's very
subjective. Everybody's really. Everybody's different,
everybody's unique. Everybody's life experience is very
subjective to them and what they're currently experiencing as
well. So I think when we talk about work life balance, of course, if
we get into the subject of, you know, um,
making those broad kind of like generalisations about different
(00:59):
generations or women, for example. But I do
feel it's very subjective and very unique for an
individual. What's right for one person may not
be right for another person. And I know that from my own
experiences and background as well.
>> Kim (01:12):
M. And it can evolve as well, can't it? I know that it's
looked different, felt different for me
over time, depending on where I am in my life and,
you know, what my uh, my expectations of myself
are and what I, you know, what my responsibilities are
in life too.
>> Kavita (01:29):
Have you found, Kim, that through
experience? So if I, I mean, I. For. As an example,
if I look back to my younger years, it probably
worked life balance to an extent. When I first, you know, got into
my career and started to like, oh, my aspirations grew,
etc. It was very much work, work, work, work, work kind of
thing. But actually, as he gained that experience, have you
(01:50):
felt that actually you feel more confident
perhaps addressing work life balance?
>> Kim (01:55):
Yes, definitely. I feel like in my
early days in my career
work wasn't necessarily more important to me
than uh, as uh, it is now.
But I did have different aspects to my life
and I guess I had more time in a way to
devote um, extra time
to it, which in hindsight wasn't particularly
(02:17):
healthy for me.
Um, and that has changed over the
years and I think I've grown in confidence with setting
boundaries.
>> Kavita (02:26):
Yes.
>> Kim (02:27):
And ah, knowing uh, how I can
contribute well and what's good for me, what
keeps me healthy and well and able to I guess,
meet um, all the kind of demands in my life.
Not, not just work. Um.
Yeah, absolutely. I guess I know more about.
>> Kavita (02:44):
Yeah, I think when you said that
grew the confidence and setting the boundaries. I think that's
something for me through experience that I've kind
of learned more to say no,
learned more to set those boundaries and really
identify Actually what is important
and I just think for me personally that's just come from
(03:04):
that life experience, um, that we, that,
that we have, you know, I feel, so to speak,
less intimidated speaking to senior
managers or directors or etc, you know, CEOs
to set to address work life balance than what I
used to. And I think that's just an age, maybe
potentially it's an age thing as well. Don't know.
>> Kim (03:24):
And I think perhaps experience in our career as well. Right.
Because I do feel better at my job now. I have more
experience. Um, and I know I can
get more done in less time. I am more productive
nowadays. Uh, and that has shifted for me in recent
this too. So I, I'm confident
that if, if I have to say no or set boundaries or
type take time away, well, I'll get my work done
(03:47):
somehow.
>> Kavita (03:48):
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
And I think going back to what I was saying originally, I think about
it, work life balance is very personal, very unique,
very subjective to
individuals. I think it's, you know, we, we banter around that
term work like back balance of what does that actually, you know, mean?
And people will start off by saying, you know, it's about having
that good balance between work, between.
(04:10):
To just switch off from work, uh, without
feeling guilty as well. But for other people, and
I know for me particular it is about that level of
flexibility that I will work when I
can work and where I want to
work. I know, I think I've grown to understand myself a
lot more. You know, turning that mirror back background and looking
(04:30):
at myself a bit more and realising that there are days
like yesterday as an example, prime example that,
that I just don't feel it. I just don't feel in the zone. And
I know through experience that if I'm not feeling
it and I'm not in the zone, whatever I produce
is not going to be that high quality that I will look for.
Um, um. And I've, you know, bent my, my fingers loads of times before
(04:51):
when I've produced something and then I've looked at it a few days later and
thought I've got to have to start again. It wasn't that high quality.
So for me work life balance is very much about that
flexibility. To be able to work when I one
to work and where, you know, uh, m.
I understand me as long as I meet those deadlines,
I'm able to prioritise and set those boundaries. And for me
(05:12):
personally that really, really works.
>> Kim (05:14):
That makes so much sense. And, and you know, a lot of people
don't say it's work life balance. Right.
Some people call it work life alignment or
integration, even navigation
blend. Like I do think it's just life. Right. And
there is actually a quote by um, ah, a
yogi guru type guy. Um, I heard this recently
because I attended a wellness um, seminar
(05:36):
at a conference I was at recently. And uh, it says there's
no such thing as work life balance. It's all
life. The balance has to be within you. And
that's by somebody called Sadhguru.
And I thought that was interesting because it is just life.
Right. And I don't think there is a balance and some days it's
absolutely not balanced or aligned at all. Right. I might need more
(05:57):
time for my personal life or for me, um,
or I might have the capacity me to
really focus on work for more time than I
might usually do and then that works as well.
>> Kavita (06:08):
Yeah, absolutely. No, I like that quote. It gives you a
different perspective on things and a different outlook when you, when you kind
of really think about that quote a little bit more.
Yeah, I do like that. Nice.
>> Kim (06:18):
I think as humans we're just trying to define things all
the time, aren't we?
>> Kavita (06:22):
Yes.
>> Kim (06:22):
We want to put a label on it, everything. We want to try and
figure it out.
>> Kavita (06:26):
Actually.
>> Kim (06:27):
It's just different for everyone.
>> Kavita (06:28):
It is. No, you're absolutely right. It really is different for everyone.
I think I like that quote because I think
it's, it is just life, isn't it? Everything is
just about life and there are times when it will be manic
in one aspect of our life and not so manic in another.
And I think it is about not letting one
override the other for too long. Maybe that's where the balance
(06:48):
part comes in. To kind of try to maintain that
balance and to think what works for me and
equally what's, what's impacting me with my stress
levels and my, well being with my um,
I don't know, my, my, the
different priorities that I'm juggling with my mental health
and my physical health as well. What's actually important for me at
(07:09):
this moment of time? Where do I need to give that ah, energy.
So do you think, because I have got a, uh, thought on this, but I'd like, like
to hear your thoughts. Kim. Do you think when it comes to women
that we are sometimes our own worst enemies when it comes
to trying to balance everything and
juggle those plates?
>> Kim (07:28):
I guess I would argue that in my experience
knowing, you know, my friends and the people I, I
know and what I observe women in Particular
can tend to have more on their plates.
Um, and you know that's a sweeping statement there. But um,
I think you know, if, if we choose to
become a mother then, then
(07:51):
we often bear a
significant load of that. Right. Whether it's
just, just the, you know, the pregnancy
and the birthing or the, or the, you know, the being
the perhaps default carer, uh, and
perhaps taking a hit to our careers and then
perhaps taking on more of life admin or
(08:12):
you know, the admin around or the mental load around our children.
I don't know. But of course there's these traditional roles,
isn't there, that I think still have an effect. And
um, and then now of course we' told that we can or should have
it all and so we're, lots of us are striving to have a career
as well and I guess it just seems that there's just a lot
in our heads all of the time. Yeah. Um,
(08:33):
so that's why I in particular perhaps find
it harder to have a balance
or of everything in my life
harder than say my husband does.
Um, I feel like I'm often
thinking of, of more.
>> Kavita (08:48):
More. Yeah, absolutely. Trying to balance it. I think
you're right. I think there is that society expectations,
traditional gender roles are still embedded
somewhere amongst us all, aren't they? You know, that uneven
distribution of household responsibilities.
Um, but I think sometimes
maybe, maybe perhaps more than men and I can't speak on behalf of
(09:09):
men but if we just try to generalise a little bit here. I think
sometimes I think women who are potentially first time
mothers or even single, um, parents
almost have that sense of guilt when it comes to that work
life balance. And I think sometimes
I feel sometimes we are our own worst enemies as well.
And I think sometimes, and I can again at least speak for the women
(09:29):
I'm surrounded with but I think sometimes we do
struggle to say no. Um, we
equally struggle with actually if I just want something
done right, I'll just do it myself rather than ask somebody else. So if
it's a simple thing of cleaning the kitchen, for
example, actually why am m I going to ask the other half or
somebody else, I'll do it myself because I know it will be to the standard,
(09:49):
you know, when I'm doing the laundry, when I'm not going to get the kids to do it because
they're not going to do it properly, they're going to mix something up, I'll
do it myself. So I think we sometimes struggle with that. I think we
sometimes struggle with asking for
help and asking for support. I think
I'm definitely guilty of that. Almost thinking my husband's
telepathic and be able to read and see
(10:09):
the signals that I need help. But I'm struggled to ask
for it. And equally, I think sometimes,
generally women do think that having that me
time is selfish. Coming back to your point,
Kim, of that women can have it all and do it all. So
actually me time is selfish. Don't know if you've seen that.
>> Kim (10:28):
So I'm probably an example of someone who's
been working very hard on
carving out time for me and saying no
to things, um, and trying
to figure out what I need from life.
Um, so I've got
quite an interesting experience of how my
work life balance has evolved over the last five years in particular.
(10:51):
So, um, I had my first
child in February 2020, right before the
pandemic. So my whole experience of
parenting initially was very much
framed by that experience and the isolation
there. I returned to work three days
a week part time the following year and
(11:11):
of course we were completely working from home. So again, my work
life boundaries were completely changed
and I just suddenly was not returning to the office.
I'd already, you know, known, always known, and
I was suddenly working from home. And it's, you know, as everyone
knows, it's very hard sometimes to shut the door and walk away from work
when it's in your home. Right. Um, and
(11:31):
then I went on another maternity leave and I returned three days
a week again. But actually,
um, six months
later, I knew it was not working for
me three days a week, that balance between work
and life and parenting and work and something
wasn't working. I was pretty unhappy and
I didn't feel like I was good enough at either job,
(11:54):
being a parent and my work. And I did, as you
said, had a lot of guilt around all of that.
And so with the help of some coaching, I realised
I actually needed to shift to find four days a week
work, which kind of innately went against everything
that I really felt because of course
I was putting my children into another day of
childcare and surely it should be the other way around or,
(12:17):
you know, why, why, why should I be
committing another day to work? But it, it,
it was, it's exactly what I needed at that time.
And now I work four and a half days in four now
previous it was four. And it works for me. And
I felt like I have a nice balance of time with my children
and I can commit my work,
(12:37):
my, my work job, uh, better.
So, yeah, I'm much happier Now, Yeah.
>> Kavita (12:42):
Thanks for sharing that because I think that's really interesting because
I think when people think of work life balance, it's almost I need to
reduce my working time because I need to have more
personal space. But actually what you found was actually, if I
increased it by an extra day, I can give more
to my kids and my family and everything can address
that balance. Was it because
(13:03):
that you weren't able to switch off from work? So three days
just wasn't quite enough, do you feel?
>> Kim (13:09):
Um, there was an element of. That. There was a slight
element of perhaps having a little bit too more work than
three days worth, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't much more
than that. It was really, I could get my work done and I
felt very, very. I felt much more productive, interestingly,
returning to work, um, as a parent, uh, because
I had those clear boundaries, set times, I knew I just had to switch
(13:29):
off. Um, it was. I
felt like I had. I could get my work done but I couldn't really
contribute to anything else. So all those other
conversations that take place at work, the groups that
you're perhaps in, maybe you're volunteering for something, maybe
you're mentoring someone else or coaching. I
felt I didn't have time for that. I missed that element of work,
I guess more of the social side. And then I was also
(13:51):
going from my Thursday night into my Friday quite
exhausted, and then into the weekend quite
exhausted. And then after the weekend, I had Monday with the children as
well. And so I was just constantly, constantly. I felt
constantly on the back foot. And now working Monday
to Thursday, I leave my weekend, I'm ready
for my Monday. Maybe I'll take it a little slower, you know,
to ease myself into it, but I feel refreshed.
(14:14):
I also have more time in my working week now to spend a day
in the office. Um, and then I also go
into my M Fridays feeling, you know, excited to spend time
with my time.
>> Kavita (14:24):
Yeah. You're able to separate the two and able
to give it all for both sides of your work
and your personal life as well.
>> Kim (14:31):
Yes, exactly.
>> Kavita (14:32):
That's the trick, isn't it?
>> Kim (14:34):
How is work life balance evolved for you over the years?
>> Kavita (14:37):
I think for me, it was my, uh, turning point
was this is way before the pandemic and I
was working in an organisation. It was
an organisation spread across the whole country, so quite a large
organisation looking after quite a huge team.
Geographically, we were very dispersed, so
that was an added element. You know, we weren't all working in the same, um,
(14:57):
office and I was managing. Um, and every
evening I would come home, you know, spend a bit of time at home,
obviously still cook dinner and do everything, but I'd always go onto the
laptop. And to me, it wasn't an issue. I
was watching TV with the other half while I was
working. You know, I'm still here, I'm still present. And then at
weekends, I would always make sure that I was logging on.
(15:18):
And it wasn't until quite a bit later that the other half was, uh, like, this has got to
stop. And I. But for me, it didn't. It didn't feel like it
was impinging on my personal life because I was still in
the house, I was watching TV or doing whatever or in the garden,
but I was. Just had the laptop. So I didn't, um, understand the issue, to be
honest with you. Um, and I'm not quite sure what
happened. I still can't put my finger on exactly what
(15:38):
happened. But I remember coming home from work on the Friday and I said
to the other half, I'm not gonna log on tonight and I'm not actually
not gonna log on this weekend. And I
didn't. And I just did feel a bit like, oh, my
God. But then I really realised, oh, my God. I. Yes,
I've been physically there, but I haven't really been
present. Um, and I've missed out on, you know,
other things that were going on or other communications that were going
(16:01):
on, et cetera. Now, looking now with experience,
I look back at that time and it was definitely the best
decision I made. I now. And, um, in all
honesty, I think the reason I did
it and logged on every weekend and logged on after work
was purely for my own ego. To be
perfectly honest, I was now looking back on
(16:22):
it, I was feeding my own ego. And I was saying to myself,
if I don't, this is going to happen. If I don't, oh, um, my
God, what's going to happen on Monday, though? But what about my team? They need this.
What if somebody emails me what, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
And actually now, with experience, I can say all you did,
Kavita, uh, was feed your own ego. You kind of
made yourself into this great person. And that
(16:42):
weekend, that Friday and that weekend, when I didn't log
on on Monday, I was a bit petrified, thinking, oh,
God, what's going to happen? And nothing happened.
The business still ran, the services still successful. My team was
so happy. So I literally was. I think I was just,
uh, my own worst enemy, doing it for myself and that really
became my, my turning point. Like, okay,
(17:03):
there, you know, you can switch off, you can still
have it all, you can still succeed your life
and have your career aspirations, but equally you
can get this balance
really right as well for what feels right for
you. And it's not to say that there aren't days that I didn't log
on. I still do now in the evenings or some weekends I'll have
to. But I really make it.
(17:26):
M M. It's a big part of me now. So when I
started this job that I'm doing and work
and started this company, it was very much
right. I don't want to, I don't want a headache is
what I always say. I don't want to grow this company too big and have a
massive headache. I want to be able to log off at 4 o' clock and not think
about.
I want to be able to not work at the weekends whatsoever.
(17:47):
Occasionally, of course I will, you know, tight deadline, need to do
something. Of course that will happen but I don't want that to be
the, the everyday and become the norm. So I think
for me that really resonated from that experience I had and
it just actually I. This, this is important to me that work
life balance is massively important.
>> Kim (18:04):
That is so interesting because I'm definitely guilty, I think
from the whole working from home to just check,
I'll just check Slack, you know, I won't necessarily
respond, uh, because I'm conscious of the
impact on other people actually being in different time zones.
If they know that I'm replying a late time in
my time zone, then I think that can, uh,
set a bad example. Um, it can influence
(18:27):
others or make people feel that they need to do the same.
Um, but still me checking is not good either.
Um, and sometimes it's a bit of a. I've come off social media
so I sometimes wonder if me checking Slack
or emails is the equivalent kind of, uh, endorphin
hit. Is it endorphine or something else? You know,
I'm getting a little buzz from it. Yeah, it's so silly. So
(18:47):
I really need to stop, but M. When I, when I do need to
stop when, um, I can, you know, I, I
deactivate the apps or I, yeah, turn
them off or something or delete them even. Right?
>> Kavita (18:58):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I like
what you said about that leading by example, people, especially people in different
teams, um, time zones as well. But I think
if you are a leader in your organisation, I think
you can really set that good example
to really support your team, maybe even junior members of your
team, to really look at their work life balance. Because they
(19:19):
will, you know, you set the tone, you set the culture.
People will look up at you and think, oh gosh, if she's
replying at 7 o' clock at night, that means I need to reply.
If you're not leaving the office at uh, X or Y
Z time, that means I've just got to hang about for a little bit because it's,
it would make me look bad, as if I don't care or I'm not as
committed because my lead is not doing it. You know, if you're not
(19:40):
taking your lunch break and you're just always sitting your
desk eating your lunch, which we've all been guilty of, I'm
sure. Um, in your eating your lunch, that means I need to
do that as well because it shows I'm committed, it shows I'm loyal.
I'll get that next promotion. So I think junior members
of staff definitely look at the leaders in their
organisation. Um, and you can really make an
(20:00):
impact on people's work life balance as well.
>> Kim (20:02):
Definitely. It's something my team talk about a lot and we're
encouraging more of our people, managers across the business
to have those conversations of their teams.
Um, my team are very, very transparent about how
we spend our days and we have, you know, a series of commitments for the
week, but if someone is stepping away for dots appointments,
something to do with their children's school, they need a self care
(20:23):
something or other, they're doing sports at lunchtime, they need
to end early. Fine. Um, you know,
we're not listing everything but we just give each
other a heads up when we're not available. Um, and that
is, and there's no expectation to make up the time either. You know, there's
just a feeling that you get your work done however, you know,
however and whenever you can. Um, and that's
(20:43):
something. Um, it's in line with my companies, we have
flexible work principles, um, which of
course is, is so
aligned to this topic. Um, and we, we
just have a list of things that are important to us, like
collaboration, um, being
first. We often say life first or family first.
>> Kavita (21:02):
Nice.
>> Kim (21:03):
Like it, we talk about individual flexibility. So for
example, everybody here can work hybrid.
Um, there's no expectation to be in an office at
all. Um, and there is a promise that that won't happen.
I mean, who knows? But at the moment we're really enjoying it. We're,
you know, we're adults, we're trusted to do our jobs. Lots
of people have moved away, you know, and have. And work remotely now.
(21:23):
They live where they want to live. Right. Um,
there's an aspect around, you know, being trusted, being
accountable, being respectful. There's
fairness, there's a global perspective, so a global company. So
it's just an acknowledgement of that as well. And of course it comes.
It's linked to health and safety and wellness as well.
So that's how we view flexible work. And again,
like work life balance.
>> Kavita (21:44):
Yeah, absolutely. And have you noticed then why having
that introduced that actually, people. Because
my. My thought process will always be. And I know, and I can only speak
from my own personal experience when I have that flexibility and
I have that understanding that actually if I need to leave early, I will.
I don't feel like I have to make up the time or
pull out a reason why I need to leave early. I
(22:05):
mean, it could just be that I'm just not in the zone, not really feeling it. But, you
know, I'm going to get m measured on my outcome,
um, and go from there. But do you. Have you seen in your
organisation that actually people's productivity is
higher because of this?
>> Kim (22:18):
Um, we certainly haven't seen a dip.
Um, and we've been monitoring that
since the pandemic. I actually couldn't tell you exactly how,
but I just hear that our
senior leadership is very, very happy, um, with
how our work has continued, say, since
2019. And actually the flexible work principles were
(22:38):
first drafted in 2019, so before the pandemic. But
of course it became very cemented because of that experience.
Um, so, yeah, no, we're just. We're just fully
trusted to get our work done and to, uh, yeah, you know, commit to
our goals and shows good, strong leadership. I think, as
well it works and it's definitely a part of our
culture. We talk about them a lot. You know, we have leadership principles
(22:59):
which are our values, we have operating principles which help us make
decisions. And so the flexible work principles become part
of that conversation as well.
>> Kavita (23:06):
Yeah, no, I like that. And I think when we start looking at
different generations and generations entering into the job market
now, I think this is for you, more at the forefront of
their minds now. I know when we're talking about, you know, work life balance
and the kind of examples that I've
given personally, they don't work for
everybody. You know, there are people that, actually, one of my really
(23:27):
good friends is a nurse, for example, working in the local hospital,
um, and they have shift patterns. You know, she can't just leave early uh,
because she wants to go to yoga class or go. You know I
totally appreciate that. So I totally appreciate that in
some sectors, in some areas this may
not work, should I say
as well as where it could work in other um, areas. But when
(23:48):
we think about the generations coming through, I
think for me the new generation is very
much about that level of flexibility,
about that. Okay, I'm going to give this to you as
ah, an employee and I want to be, be loyal to you. But what
are you going to give back to me how you comes back to that word
you were saying earlier Kim. How are you supporting my wellness? How are you supporting my
(24:08):
well being?
>> Kim (24:10):
M I do think employees are asking more of
companies, aren't they? They have different expectations nowadays. They
want more control over their working hours and location.
They want better access to wellness and
health resources. Um, there is a more
focus on you know, their working
environments and um,
(24:30):
the support that they get for that. Um, you
know I wonder if there's just generally more
um, and more a desire to kind of craft
their own jobs and
how they work. So yeah, you know, flexible job design
perhaps. So yeah, I wonder,
what do you think about that?
>> Kavita (24:50):
I think there's, I think there's definitely scope for that. I think
it relies on a lot of trust
from an organisation. I think leaders at the top
need to lead by example but really understand what
we mean by that flexible job design, um,
and really believe in it and have passion towards it. So it's not that
traditional. No, it's nine to five and it's your job description.
(25:10):
You have to think on your job description as well. I uh,
think how that relates to us in
learning and development is very much that upskilling of
that middle management, that senior management team for them really
to understand how it works and to maybe give them some
hard facts of how this does work in principle. So I think you're
right. I think new generations coming into the workspace.
(25:31):
So gen, Gen Z, Z whatever they call
them, um, are very much actually
work life balance is really important and I need that wellness, I need
that support and there's certain areas of that job that I don't want to do but
there's certain areas that I do want to do. But of course he's still
got those sometimes and I've heard it myself, very
hard nosed leaders who were like well I
(25:51):
had to do it, so you had to do it. You know I struggled.
I was, I remember, I even remember um, a uh, manager
saying to me once, well kavita uh, I was a
single mother, I had two kids and I still had to do it. So, so
do they. And I did challenge Mac to say, but you
still carrying that burden, you're still carrying that chip on your
shoulder almost. It's still making you feel a certain
(26:11):
way. So why would you want to do that? To meet your new
team members? Just because you've suffered and went through it, you know how
it feels. And I don't think people sometimes
can disconnect between that. I did it so they can do
it.
>> Kim (26:24):
The reality is the working landscape has changed and
so we have to as well. And I agree with you. I think
those of us in learning, learning, development, culture and development,
organisational design, we need to
support organisations, um, and
leadership to, um, have these
conversations. And of course, it does depend on what the
individual does, right? The type of work they
(26:46):
do, the department they're in, um,
so on and so on. But
it's just not a 9 till 5, is it? I think it comes
back to that. Integrating work around life.
Um, let's not count the hours, let's
look at the output. Doesn't matter when you know, as long
as you are, you know, in communication and collaboration with your team,
(27:08):
right across time zones, perhaps, um,
supporting each other. But my team wouldn't, Wouldn't
care if I was getting my work done at 11pm at night. Well, they would
from a wellness perspective, they'd
question me. But if that, for whatever reason, was
the best time for me to get my work done and that's what suited
my general life, then fine.
(27:28):
Um, yeah, it's really
interesting. I do think that's that integration
piece, it's important.
>> Kavita (27:35):
It is, isn't it? Yeah, definitely trying to think about it. And
I think from us in learning and development, organisational
design, as you call it, as well, I think it's very much of how
do we support that? How can we really
upskill leaders and managers for them to really see that
bigger picture, that wider picture? Because
ultimately every organisation, every business,
every company that's out there, uh, wants their teams to
(27:58):
be productive, ultimately. So if our
teams are productive, then therefore
we're increasing our profitability, for example, you know, increasing
our, uh, market share, whatever it may well be. But we want
productive people working for us. And I think as
time's gone on and we've seen the change
throughout history, and I think especially the pandemic really made
(28:18):
people stop and reconsider priorities.
I think managers, leaders, organisations really
take a leaf out of your organization's book and really look at things,
thinking, how can we support our team to become more
productive? And ultimately, you know, if I'm asking my
team member, can you stay until 8 o' clock
tonight? Because I've really got to get this urgent, you know,
(28:38):
tender done and submitted because
it's really important and I do stay until 8 o' clock at night.
Why can't I then later on, you know,
whenever, when I say to my manager, you know, can I leave at 2 o' clock
today? Because I want to go to that yoga class because it's really important to
me. So just. Why, why, why, why do I even have
to ask that question? Because I'm staying late and I will, of
(28:59):
course I'll stay late to help and work on things, but there's
equally important things in my life that I need to,
to go off.
>> Kim (29:06):
Absolutely. It swings and roundabouts and I just feel like we
should own our time a little bit more. Uh, and for
me, productivity is definitely linked.
Um, so I would say, you know,
most human beings need a bit of variety in their life. Right.
Um, and I feel like if I'm fulfilled by
the other aspects of my life, whether that's hobbies,
(29:27):
communities, yeah, my children, my family,
friends, then I will therefore be more
productive in my work life as well.
Um, I, you know, I will just feel happier, more
motivated and more kind of committed to get
my, my work done. Um, so I
often think that's interesting. Um, yeah,
(29:48):
for me, the balance, say, comes from
having lots of different things that I'm involved in.
Um, it's a juggle, but, um, it
is, yeah.
>> Kavita (29:58):
And I mean there's lots of data, there's lots of stats out there
of people that are on the job market at the moment and what's important
to them. And most of these stats do say actually
that that work life balance is what they're looking for more
than even pay these days. I'm not saying pay, you
know, pay people less and give them work life balance. That's not
the answer to this. But actually people are looking for, and I
(30:19):
know from my own experiences, people around me as well,
when they're looking for their next career move, it's
very much about that work life balance, very much about
that, that level of flexibility that I can work from
anywhere. I can work what I want to want and I'm trusted
to do the job that you've employed me to do and
I'll get that support or indeed whatever may will happen if
(30:40):
I'm, if I'm, if I'm not achieving those
Outcomes that you need me to achieve as well. So I
think it is very much, uh,
it's not something that's going to go away. It's not something as much as people
are like, right, we're, we're putting a mandate in that Abs to come back and work
in the office, you know, to go forward. I think
people will lose talent and
the world is, it feels to me is so much
(31:02):
smaller than what it has ever been. You know, if I'm
recruiting for a position and I'm very much right, they're
based, the position's based in London. You've got to be in the office all,
every single day, five days a week. I'm um, potentially
losing out on talent around the world.
>> Kim (31:17):
M. Absolutely. It's so off putting. It's just not what people
want anymore. And I agree with you, people are leaving jobs
in search of better work life balance. Um,
you can't put a price on it really. I
um, don't think it just means so much to so
many people, uh, especially in this, you know, digital
age. And we're always connected as well. Uh,
(31:38):
there's this argument why, why I can contribute,
you know, wherever I am. However, you know, whatever time
I, I log on or whatever.
Um, yeah, and going back to your, your
point earlier when you mentioned
um, the, the we talked about swings
and roundabouts and, and you know, working perhaps late
or committing to work in a certain way and then taking some time
(32:00):
back for yourself, I always think, you know, well, if work can
intrude on, on your life or your family life,
your personal life, why can't the opposite be okay too?
Um, and that's what some people really struggle with. And that guilt.
Right.
But that is, that's what I've been working on very, um,
that ability to.
>> Kavita (32:17):
Switch off from work and home life, which does become difficult.
Coming back to your point earlier on about when you're working from home, those
boundaries start to merge a little bit, don't they as well?
Yeah, um, but I think, you know,
absolutely. Organisations, leaders, managers can make
a massive difference and really support individuals by
asking the right questions of to, to, to make sure
that they are getting that work life balance. What do you
(32:39):
think we can do as individuals? Because I also think
the responsibility sits with us as individuals to get
that work life balance, not just the organisations.
>> Kim (32:48):
Yeah, I think it's hard because if there isn't
psychological safety in your team or in your function
and then your company, then I, you know, I could say I'll
just speak up. Well, no, Lots of people don't, don't
feel comfortable to do that. Um, so I do think it
comes from the leadership, setting examples. I think it does
help having some princ around it
(33:08):
on a company level to really say, this
is what we believe in. Because then if people don't necessarily see
some senior leaders, because, let's face it, they do have bigger
jobs and they might be working different hours,
um, then at least they know that actually the
company's got their back and that these principles that we all should be
following. I think the actual managers
of teams can be the ones who open up the
(33:31):
conversation, like you mentioned, um, be
vulnerable themselves, give examples of when they are stepping,
stepping away for whatever reason, and then others
will hopefully feel more confident to do the same.
>> Kavita (33:42):
And I think for me, just to end it all, I think it's, you know, very
much just, just, just reach out and ask for that help, that
support where you need it, and that hopefully will be in, in
turn in your organisation. But if not externally, uh,
to get that support, if you really need to readdress that
work life balance.
Fab.
>> Kim (34:01):
Oh, it's been so great speaking.
>> Kavita (34:02):
Yeah, you too, Kim. I've really enjoyed it. Can't believe the time's gone so quick,
but thank you ever so much. Thank
you.
>> Kim (34:08):
You.
It's so nice to meet you, Kavita. I'm looking forward to our
conversation today.
>> Kavita (00:24):
I'm excited for this one. I think this is such an important subject
as something that is so needed to
talk about at this stage. Definitely,
definitely.
>> Kim (00:33):
And work life balance means something different to so many
people, doesn't it?
>> Kavita (00:38):
Yeah, I think it's very, um. For me it's very
subjective. Everybody's really. Everybody's different,
everybody's unique. Everybody's life experience is very
subjective to them and what they're currently experiencing as
well. So I think when we talk about work life balance, of course, if
we get into the subject of, you know, um,
making those broad kind of like generalisations about different
(00:59):
generations or women, for example. But I do
feel it's very subjective and very unique for an
individual. What's right for one person may not
be right for another person. And I know that from my own
experiences and background as well.
>> Kim (01:12):
M. And it can evolve as well, can't it? I know that it's
looked different, felt different for me
over time, depending on where I am in my life and,
you know, what my uh, my expectations of myself
are and what I, you know, what my responsibilities are
in life too.
>> Kavita (01:29):
Have you found, Kim, that through
experience? So if I, I mean, I. For. As an example,
if I look back to my younger years, it probably
worked life balance to an extent. When I first, you know, got into
my career and started to like, oh, my aspirations grew,
etc. It was very much work, work, work, work, work kind of
thing. But actually, as he gained that experience, have you
(01:50):
felt that actually you feel more confident
perhaps addressing work life balance?
>> Kim (01:55):
Yes, definitely. I feel like in my
early days in my career
work wasn't necessarily more important to me
than uh, as uh, it is now.
But I did have different aspects to my life
and I guess I had more time in a way to
devote um, extra time
to it, which in hindsight wasn't particularly
(02:17):
healthy for me.
Um, and that has changed over the
years and I think I've grown in confidence with setting
boundaries.
>> Kavita (02:26):
Yes.
>> Kim (02:27):
And ah, knowing uh, how I can
contribute well and what's good for me, what
keeps me healthy and well and able to I guess,
meet um, all the kind of demands in my life.
Not, not just work. Um.
Yeah, absolutely. I guess I know more about.
>> Kavita (02:44):
Yeah, I think when you said that
grew the confidence and setting the boundaries. I think that's
something for me through experience that I've kind
of learned more to say no,
learned more to set those boundaries and really
identify Actually what is important
and I just think for me personally that's just come from
(03:04):
that life experience, um, that we, that,
that we have, you know, I feel, so to speak,
less intimidated speaking to senior
managers or directors or etc, you know, CEOs
to set to address work life balance than what I
used to. And I think that's just an age, maybe
potentially it's an age thing as well. Don't know.
>> Kim (03:24):
And I think perhaps experience in our career as well. Right.
Because I do feel better at my job now. I have more
experience. Um, and I know I can
get more done in less time. I am more productive
nowadays. Uh, and that has shifted for me in recent
this too. So I, I'm confident
that if, if I have to say no or set boundaries or
type take time away, well, I'll get my work done
(03:47):
somehow.
>> Kavita (03:48):
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
And I think going back to what I was saying originally, I think about
it, work life balance is very personal, very unique,
very subjective to
individuals. I think it's, you know, we, we banter around that
term work like back balance of what does that actually, you know, mean?
And people will start off by saying, you know, it's about having
that good balance between work, between.
(04:10):
To just switch off from work, uh, without
feeling guilty as well. But for other people, and
I know for me particular it is about that level of
flexibility that I will work when I
can work and where I want to
work. I know, I think I've grown to understand myself a
lot more. You know, turning that mirror back background and looking
(04:30):
at myself a bit more and realising that there are days
like yesterday as an example, prime example that,
that I just don't feel it. I just don't feel in the zone. And
I know through experience that if I'm not feeling
it and I'm not in the zone, whatever I produce
is not going to be that high quality that I will look for.
Um, um. And I've, you know, bent my, my fingers loads of times before
(04:51):
when I've produced something and then I've looked at it a few days later and
thought I've got to have to start again. It wasn't that high quality.
So for me work life balance is very much about that
flexibility. To be able to work when I one
to work and where, you know, uh, m.
I understand me as long as I meet those deadlines,
I'm able to prioritise and set those boundaries. And for me
(05:12):
personally that really, really works.
>> Kim (05:14):
That makes so much sense. And, and you know, a lot of people
don't say it's work life balance. Right.
Some people call it work life alignment or
integration, even navigation
blend. Like I do think it's just life. Right. And
there is actually a quote by um, ah, a
yogi guru type guy. Um, I heard this recently
because I attended a wellness um, seminar
(05:36):
at a conference I was at recently. And uh, it says there's
no such thing as work life balance. It's all
life. The balance has to be within you. And
that's by somebody called Sadhguru.
And I thought that was interesting because it is just life.
Right. And I don't think there is a balance and some days it's
absolutely not balanced or aligned at all. Right. I might need more
(05:57):
time for my personal life or for me, um,
or I might have the capacity me to
really focus on work for more time than I
might usually do and then that works as well.
>> Kavita (06:08):
Yeah, absolutely. No, I like that quote. It gives you a
different perspective on things and a different outlook when you, when you kind
of really think about that quote a little bit more.
Yeah, I do like that. Nice.
>> Kim (06:18):
I think as humans we're just trying to define things all
the time, aren't we?
>> Kavita (06:22):
Yes.
>> Kim (06:22):
We want to put a label on it, everything. We want to try and
figure it out.
>> Kavita (06:26):
Actually.
>> Kim (06:27):
It's just different for everyone.
>> Kavita (06:28):
It is. No, you're absolutely right. It really is different for everyone.
I think I like that quote because I think
it's, it is just life, isn't it? Everything is
just about life and there are times when it will be manic
in one aspect of our life and not so manic in another.
And I think it is about not letting one
override the other for too long. Maybe that's where the balance
(06:48):
part comes in. To kind of try to maintain that
balance and to think what works for me and
equally what's, what's impacting me with my stress
levels and my, well being with my um,
I don't know, my, my, the
different priorities that I'm juggling with my mental health
and my physical health as well. What's actually important for me at
(07:09):
this moment of time? Where do I need to give that ah, energy.
So do you think, because I have got a, uh, thought on this, but I'd like, like
to hear your thoughts. Kim. Do you think when it comes to women
that we are sometimes our own worst enemies when it comes
to trying to balance everything and
juggle those plates?
>> Kim (07:28):
I guess I would argue that in my experience
knowing, you know, my friends and the people I, I
know and what I observe women in Particular
can tend to have more on their plates.
Um, and you know that's a sweeping statement there. But um,
I think you know, if, if we choose to
become a mother then, then
(07:51):
we often bear a
significant load of that. Right. Whether it's
just, just the, you know, the pregnancy
and the birthing or the, or the, you know, the being
the perhaps default carer, uh, and
perhaps taking a hit to our careers and then
perhaps taking on more of life admin or
(08:12):
you know, the admin around or the mental load around our children.
I don't know. But of course there's these traditional roles,
isn't there, that I think still have an effect. And
um, and then now of course we' told that we can or should have
it all and so we're, lots of us are striving to have a career
as well and I guess it just seems that there's just a lot
in our heads all of the time. Yeah. Um,
(08:33):
so that's why I in particular perhaps find
it harder to have a balance
or of everything in my life
harder than say my husband does.
Um, I feel like I'm often
thinking of, of more.
>> Kavita (08:48):
More. Yeah, absolutely. Trying to balance it. I think
you're right. I think there is that society expectations,
traditional gender roles are still embedded
somewhere amongst us all, aren't they? You know, that uneven
distribution of household responsibilities.
Um, but I think sometimes
maybe, maybe perhaps more than men and I can't speak on behalf of
(09:09):
men but if we just try to generalise a little bit here. I think
sometimes I think women who are potentially first time
mothers or even single, um, parents
almost have that sense of guilt when it comes to that work
life balance. And I think sometimes
I feel sometimes we are our own worst enemies as well.
And I think sometimes, and I can again at least speak for the women
(09:29):
I'm surrounded with but I think sometimes we do
struggle to say no. Um, we
equally struggle with actually if I just want something
done right, I'll just do it myself rather than ask somebody else. So if
it's a simple thing of cleaning the kitchen, for
example, actually why am m I going to ask the other half or
somebody else, I'll do it myself because I know it will be to the standard,
(09:49):
you know, when I'm doing the laundry, when I'm not going to get the kids to do it because
they're not going to do it properly, they're going to mix something up, I'll
do it myself. So I think we sometimes struggle with that. I think we
sometimes struggle with asking for
help and asking for support. I think
I'm definitely guilty of that. Almost thinking my husband's
telepathic and be able to read and see
(10:09):
the signals that I need help. But I'm struggled to ask
for it. And equally, I think sometimes,
generally women do think that having that me
time is selfish. Coming back to your point,
Kim, of that women can have it all and do it all. So
actually me time is selfish. Don't know if you've seen that.
>> Kim (10:28):
So I'm probably an example of someone who's
been working very hard on
carving out time for me and saying no
to things, um, and trying
to figure out what I need from life.
Um, so I've got
quite an interesting experience of how my
work life balance has evolved over the last five years in particular.
(10:51):
So, um, I had my first
child in February 2020, right before the
pandemic. So my whole experience of
parenting initially was very much
framed by that experience and the isolation
there. I returned to work three days
a week part time the following year and
(11:11):
of course we were completely working from home. So again, my work
life boundaries were completely changed
and I just suddenly was not returning to the office.
I'd already, you know, known, always known, and
I was suddenly working from home. And it's, you know, as everyone
knows, it's very hard sometimes to shut the door and walk away from work
when it's in your home. Right. Um, and
(11:31):
then I went on another maternity leave and I returned three days
a week again. But actually,
um, six months
later, I knew it was not working for
me three days a week, that balance between work
and life and parenting and work and something
wasn't working. I was pretty unhappy and
I didn't feel like I was good enough at either job,
(11:54):
being a parent and my work. And I did, as you
said, had a lot of guilt around all of that.
And so with the help of some coaching, I realised
I actually needed to shift to find four days a week
work, which kind of innately went against everything
that I really felt because of course
I was putting my children into another day of
childcare and surely it should be the other way around or,
(12:17):
you know, why, why, why should I be
committing another day to work? But it, it,
it was, it's exactly what I needed at that time.
And now I work four and a half days in four now
previous it was four. And it works for me. And
I felt like I have a nice balance of time with my children
and I can commit my work,
(12:37):
my, my work job, uh, better.
So, yeah, I'm much happier Now, Yeah.
>> Kavita (12:42):
Thanks for sharing that because I think that's really interesting because
I think when people think of work life balance, it's almost I need to
reduce my working time because I need to have more
personal space. But actually what you found was actually, if I
increased it by an extra day, I can give more
to my kids and my family and everything can address
that balance. Was it because
(13:03):
that you weren't able to switch off from work? So three days
just wasn't quite enough, do you feel?
>> Kim (13:09):
Um, there was an element of. That. There was a slight
element of perhaps having a little bit too more work than
three days worth, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't much more
than that. It was really, I could get my work done and I
felt very, very. I felt much more productive, interestingly,
returning to work, um, as a parent, uh, because
I had those clear boundaries, set times, I knew I just had to switch
(13:29):
off. Um, it was. I
felt like I had. I could get my work done but I couldn't really
contribute to anything else. So all those other
conversations that take place at work, the groups that
you're perhaps in, maybe you're volunteering for something, maybe
you're mentoring someone else or coaching. I
felt I didn't have time for that. I missed that element of work,
I guess more of the social side. And then I was also
(13:51):
going from my Thursday night into my Friday quite
exhausted, and then into the weekend quite
exhausted. And then after the weekend, I had Monday with the children as
well. And so I was just constantly, constantly. I felt
constantly on the back foot. And now working Monday
to Thursday, I leave my weekend, I'm ready
for my Monday. Maybe I'll take it a little slower, you know,
to ease myself into it, but I feel refreshed.
(14:14):
I also have more time in my working week now to spend a day
in the office. Um, and then I also go
into my M Fridays feeling, you know, excited to spend time
with my time.
>> Kavita (14:24):
Yeah. You're able to separate the two and able
to give it all for both sides of your work
and your personal life as well.
>> Kim (14:31):
Yes, exactly.
>> Kavita (14:32):
That's the trick, isn't it?
>> Kim (14:34):
How is work life balance evolved for you over the years?
>> Kavita (14:37):
I think for me, it was my, uh, turning point
was this is way before the pandemic and I
was working in an organisation. It was
an organisation spread across the whole country, so quite a large
organisation looking after quite a huge team.
Geographically, we were very dispersed, so
that was an added element. You know, we weren't all working in the same, um,
(14:57):
office and I was managing. Um, and every
evening I would come home, you know, spend a bit of time at home,
obviously still cook dinner and do everything, but I'd always go onto the
laptop. And to me, it wasn't an issue. I
was watching TV with the other half while I was
working. You know, I'm still here, I'm still present. And then at
weekends, I would always make sure that I was logging on.
(15:18):
And it wasn't until quite a bit later that the other half was, uh, like, this has got to
stop. And I. But for me, it didn't. It didn't feel like it
was impinging on my personal life because I was still in
the house, I was watching TV or doing whatever or in the garden,
but I was. Just had the laptop. So I didn't, um, understand the issue, to be
honest with you. Um, and I'm not quite sure what
happened. I still can't put my finger on exactly what
(15:38):
happened. But I remember coming home from work on the Friday and I said
to the other half, I'm not gonna log on tonight and I'm not actually
not gonna log on this weekend. And I
didn't. And I just did feel a bit like, oh, my
God. But then I really realised, oh, my God. I. Yes,
I've been physically there, but I haven't really been
present. Um, and I've missed out on, you know,
other things that were going on or other communications that were going
(16:01):
on, et cetera. Now, looking now with experience,
I look back at that time and it was definitely the best
decision I made. I now. And, um, in all
honesty, I think the reason I did
it and logged on every weekend and logged on after work
was purely for my own ego. To be
perfectly honest, I was now looking back on
(16:22):
it, I was feeding my own ego. And I was saying to myself,
if I don't, this is going to happen. If I don't, oh, um, my
God, what's going to happen on Monday, though? But what about my team? They need this.
What if somebody emails me what, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
And actually now, with experience, I can say all you did,
Kavita, uh, was feed your own ego. You kind of
made yourself into this great person. And that
(16:42):
weekend, that Friday and that weekend, when I didn't log
on on Monday, I was a bit petrified, thinking, oh,
God, what's going to happen? And nothing happened.
The business still ran, the services still successful. My team was
so happy. So I literally was. I think I was just,
uh, my own worst enemy, doing it for myself and that really
became my, my turning point. Like, okay,
(17:03):
there, you know, you can switch off, you can still
have it all, you can still succeed your life
and have your career aspirations, but equally you
can get this balance
really right as well for what feels right for
you. And it's not to say that there aren't days that I didn't log
on. I still do now in the evenings or some weekends I'll have
to. But I really make it.
(17:26):
M M. It's a big part of me now. So when I
started this job that I'm doing and work
and started this company, it was very much
right. I don't want to, I don't want a headache is
what I always say. I don't want to grow this company too big and have a
massive headache. I want to be able to log off at 4 o' clock and not think
about.
I want to be able to not work at the weekends whatsoever.
(17:47):
Occasionally, of course I will, you know, tight deadline, need to do
something. Of course that will happen but I don't want that to be
the, the everyday and become the norm. So I think
for me that really resonated from that experience I had and
it just actually I. This, this is important to me that work
life balance is massively important.
>> Kim (18:04):
That is so interesting because I'm definitely guilty, I think
from the whole working from home to just check,
I'll just check Slack, you know, I won't necessarily
respond, uh, because I'm conscious of the
impact on other people actually being in different time zones.
If they know that I'm replying a late time in
my time zone, then I think that can, uh,
set a bad example. Um, it can influence
(18:27):
others or make people feel that they need to do the same.
Um, but still me checking is not good either.
Um, and sometimes it's a bit of a. I've come off social media
so I sometimes wonder if me checking Slack
or emails is the equivalent kind of, uh, endorphin
hit. Is it endorphine or something else? You know,
I'm getting a little buzz from it. Yeah, it's so silly. So
(18:47):
I really need to stop, but M. When I, when I do need to
stop when, um, I can, you know, I, I
deactivate the apps or I, yeah, turn
them off or something or delete them even. Right?
>> Kavita (18:58):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I like
what you said about that leading by example, people, especially people in different
teams, um, time zones as well. But I think
if you are a leader in your organisation, I think
you can really set that good example
to really support your team, maybe even junior members of your
team, to really look at their work life balance. Because they
(19:19):
will, you know, you set the tone, you set the culture.
People will look up at you and think, oh gosh, if she's
replying at 7 o' clock at night, that means I need to reply.
If you're not leaving the office at uh, X or Y
Z time, that means I've just got to hang about for a little bit because it's,
it would make me look bad, as if I don't care or I'm not as
committed because my lead is not doing it. You know, if you're not
(19:40):
taking your lunch break and you're just always sitting your
desk eating your lunch, which we've all been guilty of, I'm
sure. Um, in your eating your lunch, that means I need to
do that as well because it shows I'm committed, it shows I'm loyal.
I'll get that next promotion. So I think junior members
of staff definitely look at the leaders in their
organisation. Um, and you can really make an
(20:00):
impact on people's work life balance as well.
>> Kim (20:02):
Definitely. It's something my team talk about a lot and we're
encouraging more of our people, managers across the business
to have those conversations of their teams.
Um, my team are very, very transparent about how
we spend our days and we have, you know, a series of commitments for the
week, but if someone is stepping away for dots appointments,
something to do with their children's school, they need a self care
(20:23):
something or other, they're doing sports at lunchtime, they need
to end early. Fine. Um, you know,
we're not listing everything but we just give each
other a heads up when we're not available. Um, and that
is, and there's no expectation to make up the time either. You know, there's
just a feeling that you get your work done however, you know,
however and whenever you can. Um, and that's
(20:43):
something. Um, it's in line with my companies, we have
flexible work principles, um, which of
course is, is so
aligned to this topic. Um, and we, we
just have a list of things that are important to us, like
collaboration, um, being
first. We often say life first or family first.
>> Kavita (21:02):
Nice.
>> Kim (21:03):
Like it, we talk about individual flexibility. So for
example, everybody here can work hybrid.
Um, there's no expectation to be in an office at
all. Um, and there is a promise that that won't happen.
I mean, who knows? But at the moment we're really enjoying it. We're,
you know, we're adults, we're trusted to do our jobs. Lots
of people have moved away, you know, and have. And work remotely now.
(21:23):
They live where they want to live. Right. Um,
there's an aspect around, you know, being trusted, being
accountable, being respectful. There's
fairness, there's a global perspective, so a global company. So
it's just an acknowledgement of that as well. And of course it comes.
It's linked to health and safety and wellness as well.
So that's how we view flexible work. And again,
like work life balance.
>> Kavita (21:44):
Yeah, absolutely. And have you noticed then why having
that introduced that actually, people. Because
my. My thought process will always be. And I know, and I can only speak
from my own personal experience when I have that flexibility and
I have that understanding that actually if I need to leave early, I will.
I don't feel like I have to make up the time or
pull out a reason why I need to leave early. I
(22:05):
mean, it could just be that I'm just not in the zone, not really feeling it. But, you
know, I'm going to get m measured on my outcome,
um, and go from there. But do you. Have you seen in your
organisation that actually people's productivity is
higher because of this?
>> Kim (22:18):
Um, we certainly haven't seen a dip.
Um, and we've been monitoring that
since the pandemic. I actually couldn't tell you exactly how,
but I just hear that our
senior leadership is very, very happy, um, with
how our work has continued, say, since
2019. And actually the flexible work principles were
(22:38):
first drafted in 2019, so before the pandemic. But
of course it became very cemented because of that experience.
Um, so, yeah, no, we're just. We're just fully
trusted to get our work done and to, uh, yeah, you know, commit to
our goals and shows good, strong leadership. I think, as
well it works and it's definitely a part of our
culture. We talk about them a lot. You know, we have leadership principles
(22:59):
which are our values, we have operating principles which help us make
decisions. And so the flexible work principles become part
of that conversation as well.
>> Kavita (23:06):
Yeah, no, I like that. And I think when we start looking at
different generations and generations entering into the job market
now, I think this is for you, more at the forefront of
their minds now. I know when we're talking about, you know, work life balance
and the kind of examples that I've
given personally, they don't work for
everybody. You know, there are people that, actually, one of my really
(23:27):
good friends is a nurse, for example, working in the local hospital,
um, and they have shift patterns. You know, she can't just leave early uh,
because she wants to go to yoga class or go. You know I
totally appreciate that. So I totally appreciate that in
some sectors, in some areas this may
not work, should I say
as well as where it could work in other um, areas. But when
(23:48):
we think about the generations coming through, I
think for me the new generation is very
much about that level of flexibility,
about that. Okay, I'm going to give this to you as
ah, an employee and I want to be, be loyal to you. But what
are you going to give back to me how you comes back to that word
you were saying earlier Kim. How are you supporting my wellness? How are you supporting my
(24:08):
well being?
>> Kim (24:10):
M I do think employees are asking more of
companies, aren't they? They have different expectations nowadays. They
want more control over their working hours and location.
They want better access to wellness and
health resources. Um, there is a more
focus on you know, their working
environments and um,
(24:30):
the support that they get for that. Um, you
know I wonder if there's just generally more
um, and more a desire to kind of craft
their own jobs and
how they work. So yeah, you know, flexible job design
perhaps. So yeah, I wonder,
what do you think about that?
>> Kavita (24:50):
I think there's, I think there's definitely scope for that. I think
it relies on a lot of trust
from an organisation. I think leaders at the top
need to lead by example but really understand what
we mean by that flexible job design, um,
and really believe in it and have passion towards it. So it's not that
traditional. No, it's nine to five and it's your job description.
(25:10):
You have to think on your job description as well. I uh,
think how that relates to us in
learning and development is very much that upskilling of
that middle management, that senior management team for them really
to understand how it works and to maybe give them some
hard facts of how this does work in principle. So I think you're
right. I think new generations coming into the workspace.
(25:31):
So gen, Gen Z, Z whatever they call
them, um, are very much actually
work life balance is really important and I need that wellness, I need
that support and there's certain areas of that job that I don't want to do but
there's certain areas that I do want to do. But of course he's still
got those sometimes and I've heard it myself, very
hard nosed leaders who were like well I
(25:51):
had to do it, so you had to do it. You know I struggled.
I was, I remember, I even remember um, a uh, manager
saying to me once, well kavita uh, I was a
single mother, I had two kids and I still had to do it. So, so
do they. And I did challenge Mac to say, but you
still carrying that burden, you're still carrying that chip on your
shoulder almost. It's still making you feel a certain
(26:11):
way. So why would you want to do that? To meet your new
team members? Just because you've suffered and went through it, you know how
it feels. And I don't think people sometimes
can disconnect between that. I did it so they can do
it.
>> Kim (26:24):
The reality is the working landscape has changed and
so we have to as well. And I agree with you. I think
those of us in learning, learning, development, culture and development,
organisational design, we need to
support organisations, um, and
leadership to, um, have these
conversations. And of course, it does depend on what the
individual does, right? The type of work they
(26:46):
do, the department they're in, um,
so on and so on. But
it's just not a 9 till 5, is it? I think it comes
back to that. Integrating work around life.
Um, let's not count the hours, let's
look at the output. Doesn't matter when you know, as long
as you are, you know, in communication and collaboration with your team,
(27:08):
right across time zones, perhaps, um,
supporting each other. But my team wouldn't, Wouldn't
care if I was getting my work done at 11pm at night. Well, they would
from a wellness perspective, they'd
question me. But if that, for whatever reason, was
the best time for me to get my work done and that's what suited
my general life, then fine.
(27:28):
Um, yeah, it's really
interesting. I do think that's that integration
piece, it's important.
>> Kavita (27:35):
It is, isn't it? Yeah, definitely trying to think about it. And
I think from us in learning and development, organisational
design, as you call it, as well, I think it's very much of how
do we support that? How can we really
upskill leaders and managers for them to really see that
bigger picture, that wider picture? Because
ultimately every organisation, every business,
every company that's out there, uh, wants their teams to
(27:58):
be productive, ultimately. So if our
teams are productive, then therefore
we're increasing our profitability, for example, you know, increasing
our, uh, market share, whatever it may well be. But we want
productive people working for us. And I think as
time's gone on and we've seen the change
throughout history, and I think especially the pandemic really made
(28:18):
people stop and reconsider priorities.
I think managers, leaders, organisations really
take a leaf out of your organization's book and really look at things,
thinking, how can we support our team to become more
productive? And ultimately, you know, if I'm asking my
team member, can you stay until 8 o' clock
tonight? Because I've really got to get this urgent, you know,
(28:38):
tender done and submitted because
it's really important and I do stay until 8 o' clock at night.
Why can't I then later on, you know,
whenever, when I say to my manager, you know, can I leave at 2 o' clock
today? Because I want to go to that yoga class because it's really important to
me. So just. Why, why, why, why do I even have
to ask that question? Because I'm staying late and I will, of
(28:59):
course I'll stay late to help and work on things, but there's
equally important things in my life that I need to,
to go off.
>> Kim (29:06):
Absolutely. It swings and roundabouts and I just feel like we
should own our time a little bit more. Uh, and for
me, productivity is definitely linked.
Um, so I would say, you know,
most human beings need a bit of variety in their life. Right.
Um, and I feel like if I'm fulfilled by
the other aspects of my life, whether that's hobbies,
(29:27):
communities, yeah, my children, my family,
friends, then I will therefore be more
productive in my work life as well.
Um, I, you know, I will just feel happier, more
motivated and more kind of committed to get
my, my work done. Um, so I
often think that's interesting. Um, yeah,
(29:48):
for me, the balance, say, comes from
having lots of different things that I'm involved in.
Um, it's a juggle, but, um, it
is, yeah.
>> Kavita (29:58):
And I mean there's lots of data, there's lots of stats out there
of people that are on the job market at the moment and what's important
to them. And most of these stats do say actually
that that work life balance is what they're looking for more
than even pay these days. I'm not saying pay, you
know, pay people less and give them work life balance. That's not
the answer to this. But actually people are looking for, and I
(30:19):
know from my own experiences, people around me as well,
when they're looking for their next career move, it's
very much about that work life balance, very much about
that, that level of flexibility that I can work from
anywhere. I can work what I want to want and I'm trusted
to do the job that you've employed me to do and
I'll get that support or indeed whatever may will happen if
(30:40):
I'm, if I'm, if I'm not achieving those
Outcomes that you need me to achieve as well. So I
think it is very much, uh,
it's not something that's going to go away. It's not something as much as people
are like, right, we're, we're putting a mandate in that Abs to come back and work
in the office, you know, to go forward. I think
people will lose talent and
the world is, it feels to me is so much
(31:02):
smaller than what it has ever been. You know, if I'm
recruiting for a position and I'm very much right, they're
based, the position's based in London. You've got to be in the office all,
every single day, five days a week. I'm um, potentially
losing out on talent around the world.
>> Kim (31:17):
M. Absolutely. It's so off putting. It's just not what people
want anymore. And I agree with you, people are leaving jobs
in search of better work life balance. Um,
you can't put a price on it really. I
um, don't think it just means so much to so
many people, uh, especially in this, you know, digital
age. And we're always connected as well. Uh,
(31:38):
there's this argument why, why I can contribute,
you know, wherever I am. However, you know, whatever time
I, I log on or whatever.
Um, yeah, and going back to your, your
point earlier when you mentioned
um, the, the we talked about swings
and roundabouts and, and you know, working perhaps late
or committing to work in a certain way and then taking some time
(32:00):
back for yourself, I always think, you know, well, if work can
intrude on, on your life or your family life,
your personal life, why can't the opposite be okay too?
Um, and that's what some people really struggle with. And that guilt.
Right.
But that is, that's what I've been working on very, um,
that ability to.
>> Kavita (32:17):
Switch off from work and home life, which does become difficult.
Coming back to your point earlier on about when you're working from home, those
boundaries start to merge a little bit, don't they as well?
Yeah, um, but I think, you know,
absolutely. Organisations, leaders, managers can make
a massive difference and really support individuals by
asking the right questions of to, to, to make sure
that they are getting that work life balance. What do you
(32:39):
think we can do as individuals? Because I also think
the responsibility sits with us as individuals to get
that work life balance, not just the organisations.
>> Kim (32:48):
Yeah, I think it's hard because if there isn't
psychological safety in your team or in your function
and then your company, then I, you know, I could say I'll
just speak up. Well, no, Lots of people don't, don't
feel comfortable to do that. Um, so I do think it
comes from the leadership, setting examples. I think it does
help having some princ around it
(33:08):
on a company level to really say, this
is what we believe in. Because then if people don't necessarily see
some senior leaders, because, let's face it, they do have bigger
jobs and they might be working different hours,
um, then at least they know that actually the
company's got their back and that these principles that we all should be
following. I think the actual managers
of teams can be the ones who open up the
(33:31):
conversation, like you mentioned, um, be
vulnerable themselves, give examples of when they are stepping,
stepping away for whatever reason, and then others
will hopefully feel more confident to do the same.
>> Kavita (33:42):
And I think for me, just to end it all, I think it's, you know, very
much just, just, just reach out and ask for that help, that
support where you need it, and that hopefully will be in, in
turn in your organisation. But if not externally, uh,
to get that support, if you really need to readdress that
work life balance.
Fab.
>> Kim (34:01):
Oh, it's been so great speaking.
>> Kavita (34:02):
Yeah, you too, Kim. I've really enjoyed it. Can't believe the time's gone so quick,
but thank you ever so much. Thank
you.
>> Kim (34:08):
You.
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