September 13, 2023 • 26 mins
Did you know over half of Australians have suffered from burnout in some facet of their life in the past year? Pretty scary stats - luckily, former journalist, author, and expert Annie Lawson is here to help you manage burnout, rediscover enjoyment, and increase productivity in your life.Â
Then, we're going back to school with Sam and tackling the food pyramid! It's changed a lot since most of us were kids and the differences might surprise you...
Have a question for Sam? Guest suggestion? Or some positive news to share? Submit it to The Wood Life Inbox HERE.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Get everyone Sam here with another episode of the wood Life. Now.
I've been asked a few times where do you find
your guests? Often the guest comes from the question I
would like answered. I guess that's the best way of
putting it in an indie producer, and we sit down
and we sort of talk about what's topical at the moment,
(00:25):
what's in everyone's mind, what's an article that I read
that I think is really disturbing from a wellness or
a health perspective, and how do we get an expert
in to provide commentary on that particular topic, particularly if
it's not an air of my expertise. And today's one
of those cases because I was reading an article quite
recently that it's weird. It sort of flawed me at
(00:45):
first glance, and then the more I thought about it,
the less it surprised me. In the stat was that
Australians are the most burnt out workers in the world,
and the stat to support that was the fifty three
percent of us have suffered burnout during the past year.
(01:05):
I just thought, wow, that's that's a pretty harrowing stat
you know, of course, burnout isn't just from our work
life it's all fast of our life. It's our relationships,
our home life. You know, it affects all aspects of
our health. But when you think about how much time
we spend at work, you can't help but think if
you don't get control of that part of your life,
(01:27):
it's going to be a So I thought, let's get
an expert in and it was perfect timing because this
expert So today we have a wonderful guest who's going
to come in and she's not only going to help
with burnout, but she's going to help you discover or
perhaps rediscover how to get more enjoyment, more productivity, better
perspective when it comes to work where we spend so
(01:49):
much time. It's the wonderful Manly Laws and she's coming
in next and then we're going to go back to
school with Sam as we tackle the food pyramid. That's
all coming up now on the WOODLFE. So I am
(02:20):
thrilled to be joined in the studio by the incredible
Any Lawson who's sitting up to me. Any Welcome to
the wood Life. I can feel your bubbly personality just
across the desk here. It's wonderful to have you in.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Well, it's absolutely wonderful to be in and I can
feel your bubbly personal.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Each other. I'm just going to give our woodlife. This
as a bit of a background, So Annie is a
former journalist who has a very diverse career which has
seen her wrangle clowns on roller skates, live on TV,
interviewing Gene Simmons, and she has used these experiences, amongst
many many more to write an incredible book that is
sitting right in front of me. It is called Stoic
(02:59):
at Work, Ancient Wisdom to make your job a little
bit less annoying, which I absolutely love. Tell us about
the book, and then I want to get into some
of these rules that you have in the book.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I didn't really want to over promise, so I thought
if I could make people's self jobs a little bit
less annoying, that was going to be achievable.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I think you need to do a whole lot more
than that. I've had a look through and it's some
really good practical tips there.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Well, that's what I wanted to do. I really wanted
to write a book that was actually going to help
me and my work and all my friends. Because after
the pandemic, I found that one hundred percent of people
I interacted with complained about their jobs. And I think
people were struggling from the kind of you know, the
lockdowns back into the workplace and there, I guess resilience
(03:46):
had been tested and they were finding it harder. I've
also always been very interested in how people navigate work
because it dominates so much of our life. And I
just wanted some ancient wisdom because I just thought the
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius nearly two thousand years ago use
Stoic philosophy to help him successfully lead an empire. And
(04:07):
I thought, well, if he could keep the Roman empire afloat,
surely I can survive a meeting where I have to
share my screen. It's a perspective, yeah, So I thought
a stow perspective is a better approach than just wallowing
and work troubles over after work drinks. But it's also
about balancing your life, like one of the Stoic philosophers,
another one called Seneca, talks about balancing life's books at
(04:31):
the end of the day, and you can't be all
about business, so it's good to have a creative outlet.
So these little kind of concepts are underpin Stoic philosophy
I think are very relevant to all our jobs.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
What a unique and refreshing approach, and we do spend
so much time at work, so it has to be enjoyable.
It has to be to have a good life. You've
got to enjoy your work. Surely, it's almost that simple.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
You need the light and shade. You know, there are
times where it's in high pressure. So if you don't
have the kind of lighter moments to kind of rejuvenate,
you're not going to enjoy it, and you're not going
to be productive and helpful to your employer. But I
think one of the main concepts that underpins Stoic philosophy
that Marcus Aurelius took to his job is that the
(05:17):
only things that can disturb our soul are our internal beliefs,
and so really applies to social media or at school
or anywhere. We are very much in control of our
thoughts and we have to pay very careful attention to
them and not let them run away. And we have
to be careful about our judgments of other people. So,
for instance, my threshold on people who I regard as
(05:38):
annoying was previously low. I can't deny, and the stoic
philosophers would say that, actually, you know, be careful of
the judgment it kind of are they really annoying? Are
you the annoying person? And also when you wake up
in the morning, expect to encounter annoying, meddling, frustrating people,
so that when you do, you're not disappointed and you're
(06:01):
very well prepared. And these are lessons I think you
can take into any workplace.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
So let's dwell down on one of those. Because so
just for everybody listening this book, it's forty nine Modern Rules,
you know, listed sort of one to forty nine. It
actually was fifty, and that's going to line through it.
What happened to what happened to the fiftiethan.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I think I ran out of steak.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
I didn't quite make it to the heart.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I think we thought forty nine might be memorable as well.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
It is No, I like it. I like it, ninety
nine I like it. So forty nine Modern rules. So
you just said, and this is rule number five, be
prepared for when things go off the rails. How do
we keep calm when things don't go to plan? And
what plan can we have in place, you know, can
(06:51):
you elaborate on that a little bit? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Sure. So the Stoics they had this technique which is
so good for pessimis like me actually, and it's called
negative visualization, and you imagine every worst case scenario possible
before an event, say, and so that really sits. That
sort of prepares you for things to not work. So
(07:13):
an example would be my IT skills are somewhat questionable
when it comes to PowerPoint. If I've ever had to
give a presentation at work, it's sort of proceeded with
a lot of angst. Instead I should be thinking, of
course it's going to freeze. Of course everyone's going to
stare at me like I'm a loser. But in any case,
imagining this before it happens is useful because you are
(07:35):
less horrified when it eventuates. So that's one technique, I guess.
The other thing is the Stoics say, you know, the
only things you control are your beliefs, your thoughts, and
your actions. So whatever happens, you have to remember you
do not control the opinion of other people, what they
think of you and what they do. So when things
(07:55):
do go off the rails, you need to make an assessment,
what is it that you can do to repair? And
they also say that any obstacle we encounter is they
say something like, oh, it's beautiful, like a blazing fire
grows flames with everything you throw at it, meaning obstacles
as well make us stronger. So when things do go
(08:16):
off the rails, we become a lot stronger.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
It's a really interesting perspective, I mean that pessimist one.
We've spoken to lots of athletes on this show and
they're the opposite. You've got to visualized success to get
the success, You're like, visualize the disaster and that ever happens.
I knew this was a possibility, you know. It really
is a different perspective. But I love it. I love it.
And we're talking about a work meeting rather than perhaps
(08:39):
an Olympic gold medal, but I love it. So Rule
number seven abandon irrelevant meetings. That went to a special
place for me because there's nothing worse than sitting in
a meeting and then terminutes in and going why am
I here? So what's your definition of irrelevant and why
is this one of your one of your rules?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Well, firstly, it's one of my rules because I went
from journalism to the corporate world, which was like stepping
into a new universe. And I stepped into a fascinating universe,
but one with a lot of meetings, and I was horrified.
And I soon realized there's different types of meetings, and
I think the irrelevant ones are meetings about meetings because
(09:18):
there's never an outcome. And I sort of sit there
eye rolling and sighing and not very good at meetings
about meetings. But also I read this really fascinating thing
that any meeting with greater than five people, anyone beyond
five is ornamental, and at twenty one, so the whole
organism begins to die and you're not going to achieve anything.
(09:40):
So you have to be careful about who's in a meeting,
do you have a plan, what's the outcome? And everyone
wants because they can honestly be a complete time waster.
And you find yourself turning up to work, attending meetings
and taking your actual work home and doing it at night.
And I just think we all need to have a
(10:01):
creative outlet or to exercise or whatever it is we
want to do to balance our workout. We can't be
going home doing our meaningful work and doing meetings during
the day. And that's not to say they're all irrelevant.
There are some that are amazingly efficient productive. You know,
they have outcomes, but in my experience not all.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I couldn't agree with you more if you abandon the
irrelevant ones, or you have you know, stricter parameters around
outcomes and timeframes and that kind of thing expectations. It's actually,
you know, you can have one meeting for every four,
but you achieve more in that one than you would
in five or six or seven. You know, this whole
comment as people are walking out the door of sort
(10:41):
of flippantly saying, should we just catch up in a
couple of days to see how things are progressing? No, no,
I know, all right, this is another one of my favorites.
And it's really interesting. We talk about this a lot
from an exercise perspective, but from a work perspective. Don't procrastinate?
What do the stoics say about procrastination or what does
any say a progression?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Well, I should say that it's the combined wisdom of
friends that after work drinks and the Stow philosophers. So
my friends say, we don't know what to do. We
are procrastinating, And I mean, we all want to procrastinate
about the smallest things in any given day, and I
reward myself with chocolate as soon as I hit an obstacle.
(11:21):
So I think what they say about procrastination, they obviously
have quite a dim view of it. They think that,
you know, we all have this grand purpose in life
to be of service to others, and that we have
this purpose and these goals, and we really have to
stay on the path and not allow distractions to derail us.
Of course, they did not live in the age of
social media and you know, sort of doom scrolling and
(11:44):
so forth. But the Stoke philosophers, Marcus Aurelius being one.
There are others, but it's none.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Of them were perfect.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
We're all a work in progress, aren't we. And the
don't procrastinate rule and the staying on the path and
not being kind of distracted is something we all have
to work on. It's not something you wake up in
the morning and suddenly decide to do. So anything that
matters we should pay our full attention to and not
worry about the things sort of lower down the pecking order.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yeah, easier said than but I love it. I love it.
And then this is one that you touched on before,
and it is have a purpose. So and you talk
about staying connected, you talk about burnout. What is the
philosophic perspective on having a purpose?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Well, I guess the purpose is sort of the engine
that drives us towards our goal. Isn't it without a purpose?
I mean, how we ever to achieve whatever it is
we want to achieve. And it's interesting, I guess from
working in the corporate world, I've also worked in kind
of government not for profit sectors. The trend is for
organizations to even have a purpose. It's not a singular
individual one. From a philosophical perspective like our Marcus Aurelis
(12:57):
talks about our interconnectedness with the universe and with each
other and with life. And in order to sort of
tap into that, it does help you work. You need
a purpose to sort of anchor you to an organization.
And I think that's why organizations have spent so much
time and money coming up with these simple purposes to
(13:17):
unite their workforce. And I think it is important and
that is the best way to motivate and sort of
connect people to each other and to the work that
they're performing, if they feel they're doing it for a
specific purpose, if they understand that purpose.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, I love that. There is one more that I
want to ask you about, because this is rule forty three.
There's two. There's actually I'm going to do more because
there's two more that popped out. So forty three is work.
Happiness lies between fear and boredom. So how do we
get that balance if that's.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
The case, Well, it's interesting that rule. I actually read
this article by Jane Carrow, who I love, and she
wrote about life somewhere in between fear and boredom. And
I was sitting on a train. I was looking at
everyone on the train going to work, and they all
look bored and annoyed and maybe slightly nervous. I just
thought they're all going to work and that no one
(14:12):
looked that happy. It was just after the lockdowns. And
really we all sit somewhere differently on the spectrum, those
of us that need a bit more fear to drive ourselves.
That would be me. So journalism I was on the
fear end because I'd wake up in the morning, I
could go to a bush fire or a court case,
or interview a CEO, I didn't know what was happening,
but other people sort of work more productively at the
(14:35):
slightly more boredom predictable EDG. So it's all about where
do you sit on that spectrum in order to achieve
your goals and to perform your best.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Yeah. Interesting, I've never thought of it. Locked and I
love that one.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think work happiness is leaping
out of bed with a sense of joy and skipping
into work and hugging everyone.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
I think that's a really important distinction, because I think
people do think that.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think it is a
lot more about this purpose. It is about having a purpose,
maybe having a goal, having a long term view of
where you want to go, and using Perhaps you've got
a job you don't love, but that job is an
important stepping stone to somewhere else, and good and bad
experiences are the things that strengthen us. So if you're
(15:21):
kind of feeling a bit over your job on a
particular day, that's not necessarily a bad thing, because it
might steer you in a different direction, might make you
work harder, might make you kind of want to start
a creative project. On the side, that takes off. You
just don't know where it might lead you. So to
expect to be happy every day is probably not realistic.
(15:45):
But to sort of be more purpose driven, I think,
is something that can help you find work satisfaction.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
And then, and it would be remissis me to not
bring up the final rule. We didn't get to fifty,
but forty nine as a zinger win lotto? Yes, now,
I think, who's going to read this book and not
love number? We should all win lott. I couldn't agree
with you more. But how do we do that?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Well, I know it's funny, isn't it. Well. I was
at when I was at one of my mini jobs,
I said to my boss, Look, I'm just letting you know.
If I win lotto, I'm not going to I'm going
to disappear into the night. You'll never hear from me again.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Ever.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, yeah, you know, lotto comes up. I have to
say a lot when work isn't going well amongst a
lot of people, and it's sad, really it's sad. But
the thing is that that stoics say, of course, as
I would expect. Marcus Aurelia says, fortune is very fickle.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
It is fickle.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
To rely on fortune, and the only thing we have
in life is the present. We don't know what's going
to happen in the future, and so we can't rely
on some mythical fortune to sort of reveal itself. We've
got to deal with the here and now, and we can't.
We can't sort of hope to win a large ward
of cash. And I guess it's a sort of sober
reminder that to make the best of what we have
(17:01):
in the present and not hope for a big cash windfall.
And actually, after writing the book, I stopped buying a
lotto tickets.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah right, yeah, I do. I do look at these
people that clearly buy them same day every week or
multiple times every week. And I don't know, I've always
been I flip flop a little bit with my thoughts,
like I wonder if it's not a good thing, because
it's it's like, the only way my life gets great
(17:32):
is I win this ticket wins Yeah, then I go, oh, yeah,
but is that an attitudehere, you're taking hope away. I
don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Well, I think if you look at the mathematical odds,
it's ridiculous that any of us by myself something yeah, yeah, yeah,
and I just think mathematically, I mean, it's it's crazy.
And nonetheless, I found myself. I've had a bad day
buying a lotto ticket, and then when I go and
get it checked, I honestly think I'm going to win
because I'm ridiculous. Yeah, I get it, very disappointed, so sad.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I think I'm going to win if the kids give
me a scratchy and a Father's Day card or something
like hundred percent, this is going to be. I don't know.
I visualize scratching in front of the kids. It's all
losing our minds. But of course I think, yeah, we are,
we are, We're all. It's wonderful to talk to another
delusional person in this show today, and it really is.
(18:25):
I'm absolutely genuine when I recommend this book to all
of our listeners. It's it's little, it's easy to read,
it's funny, it's quirky, and you really will get something
out of it. It's called Stoic at Work. It's just
come out last week, couple yes, and it's at airports.
It's an all good bookshare online airports, you can't. It's
(18:48):
got this beautiful little aquork cover with Marcus Aurelius riding
a Roman horse. And I couldn't recommend it more any laws,
And thanks so much for joining some of the good life.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
That was such a timely chat with Annie. I had
lunch with a mate literally yesterday, and he's just spent
two and a half months traveling around Europe with his girlfriend.
And he really did it in this beautiful, authentic way,
going to the markets, cooking food, mixing with the locals.
It wasn't a sort of touristy trip. And I said,
(19:28):
what was your sort of biggest takeaway? And he just
sort of looked me straight in the eyes, and he's
got a very good work ethic, and you know, he
works in fitness industry, and he said, mate, we've just
got it so wrong here in Australia. And I said
to I said, what do you mean and he said,
he said, we live to work, they worked to live.
(19:51):
And I know he didn't make that saying up, but
it really was this light bulb moment that he'd had
on his trip, you know, when there he said, you know,
you're out in the street and there are these families
with young kids running along, these cobblestone streets at ten
o'clock at night and everyone's celebrating and there's music, and
it was a really beautiful insight. And then when you
(20:13):
think back to the stat I gave you about how
high our burnout rates are in Australia at the beginning
of the show, it kind of makes sense and it's
something that we shouldn't stick our head in the sand.
I'm not saying we can all go and live that
European lifestyle tomorrow, but there's definitely some I guess principles
from a book like this from the Marcus Aurelius era,
and there's some things happening in other countries and other
(20:37):
parts of the world that I think we could definitely
learn from to have a better balance, and I think
it's a really important thing. Next up, we're taking a
little trip down memory lane and we're going to talk
food Pyramid. We're taking a little trip down memory lane
to Sam with his apron on in year ten home economics.
(21:01):
And the only reason I chose home economics is because
I had a massive crush on the daughter of the
home economics teacher and she was in that class. But
that's I don't know why I'm even mentioning that, but
him missus Scott, if you're listening, But we learned about
the food pyramid in home economics. That was my first
introduction as a fourteen fifteen year old of the food pyramid.
(21:21):
And for those that don't know, it's funny. I thought,
I'll tell you exactly how I remember it, and then
I'll talk about how it's evolved and whether or not
it's evolved far enough, I guess it's the point of
today's little chat. But I remember it as carbs on
the bottom sixty percent grains, everything that makes up a carbohydrate.
Then protein, where do we get our protein from from
(21:43):
our eggs, from our chicken, from our fish, And that's
the next thirty percent of the pyramid, and then the
last ten percent was our sort of fats and sugars.
So that was how I remembered it, and it wasn't
the most accurate recollection because the eat most wasn't just
grains as great rains and fruits and veggies and lentils
and cereals. Then they eat moderately. The next thirty percent.
(22:06):
I forgot about the dairy and the nuts, so that
they were in there too, So I was really interesting,
So oh yeah, that's right. They were in there too,
and then they eat less. The ten percent is our oils,
and margarines are butters, and the very tip was the sugar.
So I remembered some bits, but there were some bits
that I sort of missed. And then then I thought,
this is really interesting. So that would have been nineteen
ninety five, and then I thought, okay, I was at
(22:26):
university from two thousand to two thousand and four. The
pyramid was the same. Then. You know, when we did
a nutrition component of Make Source Science degree, same pyramid
hadn't changed. Then in twenty fifteen it changed, you know,
from this eighties archaic, sort of very simplistic view, I guess,
(22:48):
I guess the important thing is, so what does it
look like now and why and what do we need
to take from that? So I looked up the most
recent version of the Healthy Food Pyramid and there's a
cut couple of things that really jump off the page.
The first is cereals, which were in the eat most
sixty percent category back when I was at school and
(23:11):
at university, have been taken out of that category. They
are now in the eat moderately section, And I think
that tells us two things. I think it tells us
One we eat too many carbs, particularly processed carbohydrates, and two,
it's damn hard to find a healthy cereal in this marketing,
processed food world that we now live in. And perhaps
(23:31):
we just weren't conscious or aware enough of that way
back then. Not that it was that different. Front loops
and cocoa pops were still doing the rounds when I
was at school. But so bread's grain cereals that's been
bumped into the eat moderately rather than eat most category.
The other thing that jumped off the page. This is
a good thing. Sugar isn't in the pyramid at all anymore.
(23:53):
So sugar used to be in that ten percent top
bit with our oils and margarines and fats. Sugar is
now out of the pyramid because we eat way too
much sugar and it just doesn't have a place there
and it needs to be and it sits off to
the side. Now when you see the pyramid, it's like
sugar is its own separate thing off to the side.
To say, eat in as much moderation as you can.
(24:15):
So I still think there needs to be more of
a shift towards promoting protein. I think as a society
we still need to take and I think we're taking
the right steps, but less carbs, more protein. I think
I'm not demonizing carbs, they absolutely there, but there still
needs to be I think more of a shift towards
more protein. You know, more veggies, more protein is almost
(24:37):
my rule of nutrition these days. If someone says to me,
just just just dumb it down for me, Sam, it's
too damn confusing. Okay, three things, more water, more veggies,
more protein. If you can make those three changes, I
promise you you will turn your nutrition and all of
the benefits upside down. And if they do that, they
(25:00):
always works. It's a fail save three tips if you
want to simplify things right down. So I absolutely swear
by that, But I just thought it was an interesting
exercise to walk through with you today. To think back,
because I'm sure many of you are my era, Think
back to what you were taught at school, Think now
to what you really should be teaching yourself. And I guess,
(25:22):
most importantly teaching our children, teaching that next generation. And
then I guess most importantly knowing isn't doing. So it's
all very well to have the understanding of this evolution
from a nutrition perspective. But are you putting small little
changes into your own behaviors, your own habits, your own
lifestyle that are in line with these learnings, in line
(25:43):
with this evolution, or are you just being a spectator.
That's enough for me, which means it's enough for you.
I'll see you guys next week. Great to chat with Annie.
What a bubbly legend she was as always. Would love
to hear from you in the Woodlife inboxes a link
in the show notes. Feel free to send through any
(26:04):
ideas of guests or topics that you would like covered,
or questions that you'd like answered, and I'll see you
next week.
Get everyone Sam here with another episode of the wood Life. Now.
I've been asked a few times where do you find
your guests? Often the guest comes from the question I
would like answered. I guess that's the best way of
putting it in an indie producer, and we sit down
and we sort of talk about what's topical at the moment,
(00:25):
what's in everyone's mind, what's an article that I read
that I think is really disturbing from a wellness or
a health perspective, and how do we get an expert
in to provide commentary on that particular topic, particularly if
it's not an air of my expertise. And today's one
of those cases because I was reading an article quite
recently that it's weird. It sort of flawed me at
(00:45):
first glance, and then the more I thought about it,
the less it surprised me. In the stat was that
Australians are the most burnt out workers in the world,
and the stat to support that was the fifty three
percent of us have suffered burnout during the past year.
(01:05):
I just thought, wow, that's that's a pretty harrowing stat
you know, of course, burnout isn't just from our work
life it's all fast of our life. It's our relationships,
our home life. You know, it affects all aspects of
our health. But when you think about how much time
we spend at work, you can't help but think if
you don't get control of that part of your life,
(01:27):
it's going to be a So I thought, let's get
an expert in and it was perfect timing because this
expert So today we have a wonderful guest who's going
to come in and she's not only going to help
with burnout, but she's going to help you discover or
perhaps rediscover how to get more enjoyment, more productivity, better
perspective when it comes to work where we spend so
(01:49):
much time. It's the wonderful Manly Laws and she's coming
in next and then we're going to go back to
school with Sam as we tackle the food pyramid. That's
all coming up now on the WOODLFE. So I am
(02:20):
thrilled to be joined in the studio by the incredible
Any Lawson who's sitting up to me. Any Welcome to
the wood Life. I can feel your bubbly personality just
across the desk here. It's wonderful to have you in.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Well, it's absolutely wonderful to be in and I can
feel your bubbly personal.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Each other. I'm just going to give our woodlife. This
as a bit of a background, So Annie is a
former journalist who has a very diverse career which has
seen her wrangle clowns on roller skates, live on TV,
interviewing Gene Simmons, and she has used these experiences, amongst
many many more to write an incredible book that is
sitting right in front of me. It is called Stoic
(02:59):
at Work, Ancient Wisdom to make your job a little
bit less annoying, which I absolutely love. Tell us about
the book, and then I want to get into some
of these rules that you have in the book.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I didn't really want to over promise, so I thought
if I could make people's self jobs a little bit
less annoying, that was going to be achievable.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I think you need to do a whole lot more
than that. I've had a look through and it's some
really good practical tips there.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Well, that's what I wanted to do. I really wanted
to write a book that was actually going to help
me and my work and all my friends. Because after
the pandemic, I found that one hundred percent of people
I interacted with complained about their jobs. And I think
people were struggling from the kind of you know, the
lockdowns back into the workplace and there, I guess resilience
(03:46):
had been tested and they were finding it harder. I've
also always been very interested in how people navigate work
because it dominates so much of our life. And I
just wanted some ancient wisdom because I just thought the
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius nearly two thousand years ago use
Stoic philosophy to help him successfully lead an empire. And
(04:07):
I thought, well, if he could keep the Roman empire afloat,
surely I can survive a meeting where I have to
share my screen. It's a perspective, yeah, So I thought
a stow perspective is a better approach than just wallowing
and work troubles over after work drinks. But it's also
about balancing your life, like one of the Stoic philosophers,
another one called Seneca, talks about balancing life's books at
(04:31):
the end of the day, and you can't be all
about business, so it's good to have a creative outlet.
So these little kind of concepts are underpin Stoic philosophy
I think are very relevant to all our jobs.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
What a unique and refreshing approach, and we do spend
so much time at work, so it has to be enjoyable.
It has to be to have a good life. You've
got to enjoy your work. Surely, it's almost that simple.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
You need the light and shade. You know, there are
times where it's in high pressure. So if you don't
have the kind of lighter moments to kind of rejuvenate,
you're not going to enjoy it, and you're not going
to be productive and helpful to your employer. But I
think one of the main concepts that underpins Stoic philosophy
that Marcus Aurelius took to his job is that the
(05:17):
only things that can disturb our soul are our internal beliefs,
and so really applies to social media or at school
or anywhere. We are very much in control of our
thoughts and we have to pay very careful attention to
them and not let them run away. And we have
to be careful about our judgments of other people. So,
for instance, my threshold on people who I regard as
(05:38):
annoying was previously low. I can't deny, and the stoic
philosophers would say that, actually, you know, be careful of
the judgment it kind of are they really annoying? Are
you the annoying person? And also when you wake up
in the morning, expect to encounter annoying, meddling, frustrating people,
so that when you do, you're not disappointed and you're
(06:01):
very well prepared. And these are lessons I think you
can take into any workplace.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
So let's dwell down on one of those. Because so
just for everybody listening this book, it's forty nine Modern Rules,
you know, listed sort of one to forty nine. It
actually was fifty, and that's going to line through it.
What happened to what happened to the fiftiethan.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I think I ran out of steak.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
I didn't quite make it to the heart.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I think we thought forty nine might be memorable as well.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
It is No, I like it. I like it, ninety
nine I like it. So forty nine Modern rules. So
you just said, and this is rule number five, be
prepared for when things go off the rails. How do
we keep calm when things don't go to plan? And
what plan can we have in place, you know, can
(06:51):
you elaborate on that a little bit? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Sure. So the Stoics they had this technique which is
so good for pessimis like me actually, and it's called
negative visualization, and you imagine every worst case scenario possible
before an event, say, and so that really sits. That
sort of prepares you for things to not work. So
(07:13):
an example would be my IT skills are somewhat questionable
when it comes to PowerPoint. If I've ever had to
give a presentation at work, it's sort of proceeded with
a lot of angst. Instead I should be thinking, of
course it's going to freeze. Of course everyone's going to
stare at me like I'm a loser. But in any case,
imagining this before it happens is useful because you are
(07:35):
less horrified when it eventuates. So that's one technique, I guess.
The other thing is the Stoics say, you know, the
only things you control are your beliefs, your thoughts, and
your actions. So whatever happens, you have to remember you
do not control the opinion of other people, what they
think of you and what they do. So when things
(07:55):
do go off the rails, you need to make an assessment,
what is it that you can do to repair? And
they also say that any obstacle we encounter is they
say something like, oh, it's beautiful, like a blazing fire
grows flames with everything you throw at it, meaning obstacles
as well make us stronger. So when things do go
(08:16):
off the rails, we become a lot stronger.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
It's a really interesting perspective, I mean that pessimist one.
We've spoken to lots of athletes on this show and
they're the opposite. You've got to visualized success to get
the success, You're like, visualize the disaster and that ever happens.
I knew this was a possibility, you know. It really
is a different perspective. But I love it. I love it.
And we're talking about a work meeting rather than perhaps
(08:39):
an Olympic gold medal, but I love it. So Rule
number seven abandon irrelevant meetings. That went to a special
place for me because there's nothing worse than sitting in
a meeting and then terminutes in and going why am
I here? So what's your definition of irrelevant and why
is this one of your one of your rules?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Well, firstly, it's one of my rules because I went
from journalism to the corporate world, which was like stepping
into a new universe. And I stepped into a fascinating universe,
but one with a lot of meetings, and I was horrified.
And I soon realized there's different types of meetings, and
I think the irrelevant ones are meetings about meetings because
(09:18):
there's never an outcome. And I sort of sit there
eye rolling and sighing and not very good at meetings
about meetings. But also I read this really fascinating thing
that any meeting with greater than five people, anyone beyond
five is ornamental, and at twenty one, so the whole
organism begins to die and you're not going to achieve anything.
(09:40):
So you have to be careful about who's in a meeting,
do you have a plan, what's the outcome? And everyone
wants because they can honestly be a complete time waster.
And you find yourself turning up to work, attending meetings
and taking your actual work home and doing it at night.
And I just think we all need to have a
(10:01):
creative outlet or to exercise or whatever it is we
want to do to balance our workout. We can't be
going home doing our meaningful work and doing meetings during
the day. And that's not to say they're all irrelevant.
There are some that are amazingly efficient productive. You know,
they have outcomes, but in my experience not all.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I couldn't agree with you more if you abandon the
irrelevant ones, or you have you know, stricter parameters around
outcomes and timeframes and that kind of thing expectations. It's actually,
you know, you can have one meeting for every four,
but you achieve more in that one than you would
in five or six or seven. You know, this whole
comment as people are walking out the door of sort
(10:41):
of flippantly saying, should we just catch up in a
couple of days to see how things are progressing? No, no,
I know, all right, this is another one of my favorites.
And it's really interesting. We talk about this a lot
from an exercise perspective, but from a work perspective. Don't procrastinate?
What do the stoics say about procrastination or what does
any say a progression?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Well, I should say that it's the combined wisdom of
friends that after work drinks and the Stow philosophers. So
my friends say, we don't know what to do. We
are procrastinating, And I mean, we all want to procrastinate
about the smallest things in any given day, and I
reward myself with chocolate as soon as I hit an obstacle.
(11:21):
So I think what they say about procrastination, they obviously
have quite a dim view of it. They think that,
you know, we all have this grand purpose in life
to be of service to others, and that we have
this purpose and these goals, and we really have to
stay on the path and not allow distractions to derail us.
Of course, they did not live in the age of
social media and you know, sort of doom scrolling and
(11:44):
so forth. But the Stoke philosophers, Marcus Aurelius being one.
There are others, but it's none.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Of them were perfect.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
We're all a work in progress, aren't we. And the
don't procrastinate rule and the staying on the path and
not being kind of distracted is something we all have
to work on. It's not something you wake up in
the morning and suddenly decide to do. So anything that
matters we should pay our full attention to and not
worry about the things sort of lower down the pecking order.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yeah, easier said than but I love it. I love it.
And then this is one that you touched on before,
and it is have a purpose. So and you talk
about staying connected, you talk about burnout. What is the
philosophic perspective on having a purpose?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Well, I guess the purpose is sort of the engine
that drives us towards our goal. Isn't it without a purpose?
I mean, how we ever to achieve whatever it is
we want to achieve. And it's interesting, I guess from
working in the corporate world, I've also worked in kind
of government not for profit sectors. The trend is for
organizations to even have a purpose. It's not a singular
individual one. From a philosophical perspective like our Marcus Aurelis
(12:57):
talks about our interconnectedness with the universe and with each
other and with life. And in order to sort of
tap into that, it does help you work. You need
a purpose to sort of anchor you to an organization.
And I think that's why organizations have spent so much
time and money coming up with these simple purposes to
(13:17):
unite their workforce. And I think it is important and
that is the best way to motivate and sort of
connect people to each other and to the work that
they're performing, if they feel they're doing it for a
specific purpose, if they understand that purpose.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, I love that. There is one more that I
want to ask you about, because this is rule forty three.
There's two. There's actually I'm going to do more because
there's two more that popped out. So forty three is work.
Happiness lies between fear and boredom. So how do we
get that balance if that's.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
The case, Well, it's interesting that rule. I actually read
this article by Jane Carrow, who I love, and she
wrote about life somewhere in between fear and boredom. And
I was sitting on a train. I was looking at
everyone on the train going to work, and they all
look bored and annoyed and maybe slightly nervous. I just
thought they're all going to work and that no one
(14:12):
looked that happy. It was just after the lockdowns. And
really we all sit somewhere differently on the spectrum, those
of us that need a bit more fear to drive ourselves.
That would be me. So journalism I was on the
fear end because I'd wake up in the morning, I
could go to a bush fire or a court case,
or interview a CEO, I didn't know what was happening,
but other people sort of work more productively at the
(14:35):
slightly more boredom predictable EDG. So it's all about where
do you sit on that spectrum in order to achieve
your goals and to perform your best.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Yeah. Interesting, I've never thought of it. Locked and I
love that one.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think work happiness is leaping
out of bed with a sense of joy and skipping
into work and hugging everyone.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
I think that's a really important distinction, because I think
people do think that.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think it is a
lot more about this purpose. It is about having a purpose,
maybe having a goal, having a long term view of
where you want to go, and using Perhaps you've got
a job you don't love, but that job is an
important stepping stone to somewhere else, and good and bad
experiences are the things that strengthen us. So if you're
(15:21):
kind of feeling a bit over your job on a
particular day, that's not necessarily a bad thing, because it
might steer you in a different direction, might make you
work harder, might make you kind of want to start
a creative project. On the side, that takes off. You
just don't know where it might lead you. So to
expect to be happy every day is probably not realistic.
(15:45):
But to sort of be more purpose driven, I think,
is something that can help you find work satisfaction.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
And then, and it would be remissis me to not
bring up the final rule. We didn't get to fifty,
but forty nine as a zinger win lotto? Yes, now,
I think, who's going to read this book and not
love number? We should all win lott. I couldn't agree
with you more. But how do we do that?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Well, I know it's funny, isn't it. Well. I was
at when I was at one of my mini jobs,
I said to my boss, Look, I'm just letting you know.
If I win lotto, I'm not going to I'm going
to disappear into the night. You'll never hear from me again.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Ever.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, yeah, you know, lotto comes up. I have to
say a lot when work isn't going well amongst a
lot of people, and it's sad, really it's sad. But
the thing is that that stoics say, of course, as
I would expect. Marcus Aurelia says, fortune is very fickle.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
It is fickle.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
To rely on fortune, and the only thing we have
in life is the present. We don't know what's going
to happen in the future, and so we can't rely
on some mythical fortune to sort of reveal itself. We've
got to deal with the here and now, and we can't.
We can't sort of hope to win a large ward
of cash. And I guess it's a sort of sober
reminder that to make the best of what we have
(17:01):
in the present and not hope for a big cash windfall.
And actually, after writing the book, I stopped buying a
lotto tickets.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah right, yeah, I do. I do look at these
people that clearly buy them same day every week or
multiple times every week. And I don't know, I've always
been I flip flop a little bit with my thoughts,
like I wonder if it's not a good thing, because
it's it's like, the only way my life gets great
(17:32):
is I win this ticket wins Yeah, then I go, oh, yeah,
but is that an attitudehere, you're taking hope away. I
don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Well, I think if you look at the mathematical odds,
it's ridiculous that any of us by myself something yeah, yeah, yeah,
and I just think mathematically, I mean, it's it's crazy.
And nonetheless, I found myself. I've had a bad day
buying a lotto ticket, and then when I go and
get it checked, I honestly think I'm going to win
because I'm ridiculous. Yeah, I get it, very disappointed, so sad.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I think I'm going to win if the kids give
me a scratchy and a Father's Day card or something
like hundred percent, this is going to be. I don't know.
I visualize scratching in front of the kids. It's all
losing our minds. But of course I think, yeah, we are,
we are, We're all. It's wonderful to talk to another
delusional person in this show today, and it really is.
(18:25):
I'm absolutely genuine when I recommend this book to all
of our listeners. It's it's little, it's easy to read,
it's funny, it's quirky, and you really will get something
out of it. It's called Stoic at Work. It's just
come out last week, couple yes, and it's at airports.
It's an all good bookshare online airports, you can't. It's
(18:48):
got this beautiful little aquork cover with Marcus Aurelius riding
a Roman horse. And I couldn't recommend it more any laws,
And thanks so much for joining some of the good life.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
That was such a timely chat with Annie. I had
lunch with a mate literally yesterday, and he's just spent
two and a half months traveling around Europe with his girlfriend.
And he really did it in this beautiful, authentic way,
going to the markets, cooking food, mixing with the locals.
It wasn't a sort of touristy trip. And I said,
(19:28):
what was your sort of biggest takeaway? And he just
sort of looked me straight in the eyes, and he's
got a very good work ethic, and you know, he
works in fitness industry, and he said, mate, we've just
got it so wrong here in Australia. And I said
to I said, what do you mean and he said,
he said, we live to work, they worked to live.
(19:51):
And I know he didn't make that saying up, but
it really was this light bulb moment that he'd had
on his trip, you know, when there he said, you know,
you're out in the street and there are these families
with young kids running along, these cobblestone streets at ten
o'clock at night and everyone's celebrating and there's music, and
it was a really beautiful insight. And then when you
(20:13):
think back to the stat I gave you about how
high our burnout rates are in Australia at the beginning
of the show, it kind of makes sense and it's
something that we shouldn't stick our head in the sand.
I'm not saying we can all go and live that
European lifestyle tomorrow, but there's definitely some I guess principles
from a book like this from the Marcus Aurelius era,
and there's some things happening in other countries and other
(20:37):
parts of the world that I think we could definitely
learn from to have a better balance, and I think
it's a really important thing. Next up, we're taking a
little trip down memory lane and we're going to talk
food Pyramid. We're taking a little trip down memory lane
to Sam with his apron on in year ten home economics.
(21:01):
And the only reason I chose home economics is because
I had a massive crush on the daughter of the
home economics teacher and she was in that class. But
that's I don't know why I'm even mentioning that, but
him missus Scott, if you're listening, But we learned about
the food pyramid in home economics. That was my first
introduction as a fourteen fifteen year old of the food pyramid.
(21:21):
And for those that don't know, it's funny. I thought,
I'll tell you exactly how I remember it, and then
I'll talk about how it's evolved and whether or not
it's evolved far enough, I guess it's the point of
today's little chat. But I remember it as carbs on
the bottom sixty percent grains, everything that makes up a carbohydrate.
Then protein, where do we get our protein from from
(21:43):
our eggs, from our chicken, from our fish, And that's
the next thirty percent of the pyramid, and then the
last ten percent was our sort of fats and sugars.
So that was how I remembered it, and it wasn't
the most accurate recollection because the eat most wasn't just
grains as great rains and fruits and veggies and lentils
and cereals. Then they eat moderately. The next thirty percent.
(22:06):
I forgot about the dairy and the nuts, so that
they were in there too, So I was really interesting,
So oh yeah, that's right. They were in there too,
and then they eat less. The ten percent is our oils,
and margarines are butters, and the very tip was the sugar.
So I remembered some bits, but there were some bits
that I sort of missed. And then then I thought,
this is really interesting. So that would have been nineteen
ninety five, and then I thought, okay, I was at
(22:26):
university from two thousand to two thousand and four. The
pyramid was the same. Then. You know, when we did
a nutrition component of Make Source Science degree, same pyramid
hadn't changed. Then in twenty fifteen it changed, you know,
from this eighties archaic, sort of very simplistic view, I guess,
(22:48):
I guess the important thing is, so what does it
look like now and why and what do we need
to take from that? So I looked up the most
recent version of the Healthy Food Pyramid and there's a
cut couple of things that really jump off the page.
The first is cereals, which were in the eat most
sixty percent category back when I was at school and
(23:11):
at university, have been taken out of that category. They
are now in the eat moderately section, And I think
that tells us two things. I think it tells us
One we eat too many carbs, particularly processed carbohydrates, and two,
it's damn hard to find a healthy cereal in this marketing,
processed food world that we now live in. And perhaps
(23:31):
we just weren't conscious or aware enough of that way
back then. Not that it was that different. Front loops
and cocoa pops were still doing the rounds when I
was at school. But so bread's grain cereals that's been
bumped into the eat moderately rather than eat most category.
The other thing that jumped off the page. This is
a good thing. Sugar isn't in the pyramid at all anymore.
(23:53):
So sugar used to be in that ten percent top
bit with our oils and margarines and fats. Sugar is
now out of the pyramid because we eat way too
much sugar and it just doesn't have a place there
and it needs to be and it sits off to
the side. Now when you see the pyramid, it's like
sugar is its own separate thing off to the side.
To say, eat in as much moderation as you can.
(24:15):
So I still think there needs to be more of
a shift towards promoting protein. I think as a society
we still need to take and I think we're taking
the right steps, but less carbs, more protein. I think
I'm not demonizing carbs, they absolutely there, but there still
needs to be I think more of a shift towards
more protein. You know, more veggies, more protein is almost
(24:37):
my rule of nutrition these days. If someone says to me,
just just just dumb it down for me, Sam, it's
too damn confusing. Okay, three things, more water, more veggies,
more protein. If you can make those three changes, I
promise you you will turn your nutrition and all of
the benefits upside down. And if they do that, they
(25:00):
always works. It's a fail save three tips if you
want to simplify things right down. So I absolutely swear
by that, But I just thought it was an interesting
exercise to walk through with you today. To think back,
because I'm sure many of you are my era, Think
back to what you were taught at school, Think now
to what you really should be teaching yourself. And I guess,
(25:22):
most importantly teaching our children, teaching that next generation. And
then I guess most importantly knowing isn't doing. So it's
all very well to have the understanding of this evolution
from a nutrition perspective. But are you putting small little
changes into your own behaviors, your own habits, your own
lifestyle that are in line with these learnings, in line
(25:43):
with this evolution, or are you just being a spectator.
That's enough for me, which means it's enough for you.
I'll see you guys next week. Great to chat with Annie.
What a bubbly legend she was as always. Would love
to hear from you in the Woodlife inboxes a link
in the show notes. Feel free to send through any
(26:04):
ideas of guests or topics that you would like covered,
or questions that you'd like answered, and I'll see you
next week.
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