July 19, 2023 • 24 mins
Feeling constantly tired? More sleep may not be the cure, it might be better quality sleep. Psychologist and sleep expert, Damon Ashworth joins The Wood Life to help enhance your sleep quality and feel the benefits throughout the other aspects in your life!
Then, if you, or someone you know has experienced a personal tragedy or grief, and have struggled to get back into a workout routine, or to even get involved in light exercise, Sam is here to help.
Have a question for Sam? Guest suggestion? Or some positive news to share? Submit it to The Wood Life Inbox HERE.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Good everyone, Sam here. I am back and great to
be back. I mean this sincerely. I think as much
on New York was incredible, amazing. I'm not saying New
York was terrible by any stretch. It was great. But
I really do love coming home and it sometimes takes
an overseas trip for us to realize how lucky we
are to have such a beautiful country here and a
(00:24):
beautiful life here in Australia. I've been thinking about that
a lot over the last sort of twenty four hours
since I've been back, literally only been back for thirty
six hours. So you forgive me if I'm a little
bit a little bit sleepy, and we'll talk about that
a little bit more because we are going to talk
sleep today with someone who is an absolute sleep expert,
has worked one on one with clients as a psychologist
(00:46):
in the specific sleep field for nearly a decade, So
match sure you hang around for that could be a
total life changer if that is an area you struggling.
Then We've got a really interesting question from one of
our Woodlife listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
My question is around getting back into a healthy routine
after the loss of people you love. I've recently lost
both my parents within the space a couple of months,
and I'm struggling to get back into a healthy routine
of eating and fitness, even though that's something I've always
enjoyed doing. Just wondering if you have any suggestions on
(01:17):
what I can do to help get that back on track.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
That's all coming up next.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Welcome back to the WOODLFE.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
The timing couldn't be better because I've just done thirty
nine hour flight back from the US. I was thirty
nine hours total travel, not on the plane, but total
travel with the levy. So I'm a little bit weary.
But we've got just the guest to fix that. Doctor
day Ashworth is a clinical psychologist. He's done a lot
of work in the sleep space. In fact, he works
(02:04):
specifically with sleep clients for over eight years, and he's
just released a book called Deliberately Better Sleep. Damon. Welcome
to the WOODLFE and thanks for joining us, and hopefully
I don't not off. Thanks for having me on snares.
My wife and I the one thing we fight about
is not money. It's not about the kids, it's not
about I don't know, not spending enough time with each other.
(02:27):
It is about sleep. Because we genuinely argue about the
fact that she doesn't get enough sleep, and I say
to her, you need to sleep better and our relationship
be better too, because it's not only her not getting
enough sleep. We're mismatching. Was it a disconnecting I'm trying
to go to a bed a bit earlier and she
doesn't want to. And how many people struggle with sleep?
(02:49):
And do you see that with couples?
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Yeah, definitely. I think it's probably about thirty percent of
people struggle with sleep on any given night, right, So
it really can. Yeah, it can impact a lot of people.
And there's something called chronotypes, which is someone's body clock
or preference, and it's pretty understandable that people have different preferences.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yea.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
You know, some people might be more of a morning person,
some people might be an evening person. And generally that's
not the first thing that we're looking at when we're
choosing a partner.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, that wasn't a question I asked on The Bachelor.
What's sleep kind of type? It's something you do find
out once you're in the relationship. You know, we've got
three young kids, so sleep's been very disrupted for the
last five years. Literally almost. Yes, she is nocturnal and
likes to go a bit late, but she's still getting
up early. Okay.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
So would you say, is it is because of her
body clock type or she just doesn't prioritize.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
She'd say it is. I've never sort of tested that theory.
But I mean, there's what chronotype you are, and then
there's the reality of your life situation too, and I
mean she's just not getting enough. How much is the
magic number? I'd love to know what your what your
magic number is.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
I'd say there probably isn't a magic right, Okay, Okay,
we're looking at the recommendations from the government level. People
will say anywhere between seven to nine hours is healthy
amount for an adult. But I would say each person
is slightly different. So there are some people if they
get by on five or six hours a night, that's
enough for them, and then other people might need that
nine to ten hours a night, So it can vary
from person to person.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
So my concern is the people that are saying they
only need inverted commas five to six, how do they
know that that's actually true? And are there many of
them in your opinion that actually they do need more,
but they sort of hide behind set of saying that
I won't mention my wife one more time after this,
I promise, she tells me, I'm fine. I know her
(04:39):
very well. I can see that she's tired, probably more
mentally than physically, you know, like she's forgetting things and
she's I can see that it's definitely impacting her.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
I think that's the key thing what you're talking about there,
with the impact. If someone is getting six hours of
sleep at night, and they're sleeping really well, and they're
waking up refreshed, and they're feeling great during the day,
maybe they don't need more, right, But if they are
finding it hard to pay attention and work, or they're
finding it hard to do all the things that they
want to do in their life, to exercise as much
as they'd like or eat healthy, then there's probably a
(05:11):
something that they're not sleeping as much, and by increasing
a little bit more over the next week, see half
an hour at night, they might notice that they start
to feel a lot better.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yeah, so that's good advice, isn't it. Don't you don't
have to jump to eight just for a month, get
half an hour extra night. See if it does make
a positive impact and then you know, maybe go again
or find the sweet spot for you. I really liked that.
I saw a great quote on social media the other
day and it was, you know, there's all of this
ice bath and infrared sauna stuff going on, and it
(05:43):
was someone who I really admire on social media, super
smart guy that I follow, and he's like, got nothing
against infrared saunas and ice baths, but the amount of
dickheads that are fixating on these things and they just
don't get an sleep and they're they're not doing the
eighty percent and they're fixating on the two percenters of
(06:05):
the three percent is like, this is going to be
the savior to all of their recovery and recuperation and
mental sharpness and all this kind of stuff. He was
just saying, you've got to go back to basics.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
I read Outlive by doctor Peter Tire. Oh yeah, yeah,
and he said there's really only five things we need
to think about, and the fifth one he didn't even
go into. So the fifth one, there's certain supplements that
you can take, but the main four of the pillars
of health, which is exercise, nutrition, and sleep, they're the three,
and then the fourth is emotional health. And it really
does bring it back to unless you're doing these basics right,
(06:40):
then you don't necessarily want to focus on that extra
one to two percent.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah. I like that. So we've spoken about the number
and that can vary. Your book is called Deliberately Better
Sleep because it's not just about the amount, it's about
the quality. What are some tips from your book or
from all of this experience you've had working with people
to help improve the quality of your sleep that you
think are the I guess, the best bang for your
(07:07):
buck bits of advice that you give people. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
I think it's about understanding what leads to sleep difficulties
and what we can do about it.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
So I do bring it back to the underlying mechanisms.
And not a lot of people that talk about sleep
necessarily talk about these things.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Okay, So explain that a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
So they'll say what we need to do, but they
won't necessarily say why.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Okay, So I'll.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Talk to people about sleep pressure and how it's important
to make sure that that's high enough when we go
to bed at night time.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So what does that mean?
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Explain that to that sleep pressure is a homeostatic drive
so it's something that builds up in our brain. It's
a dentisceine and essentially the longer we're awake for the
higher that pressure gets. So we want it to be
nice and high when we go to bed at night.
And if someone needs eight hours of sleep, ideally we
want them to be out of bed for about fifteen
and a half hours at least, right.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
So you can go to bed too early and you
can not build that pressure up enough so that when
you go to bed you're not tired enough to get
a quality not sleep.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Yeah, and that can be especially problematic on say a Sunday,
in that someone goes out late Saturday night, they sleep
in till say eleven a m. Sunday, and then they
try to go to bed at nine nine pm that night.
That pressure is just not going to be high enough.
And that would bring to the second point, which is
around circadian rhythms or body clock yep, in that the
more consistent our sleep is from day to day, the
better it's going to be. And if we're going to
(08:22):
bed at the right times for ourselves as better as well.
So you've just come back from New York, that's going
to produce jet lag, which is essentially when our body
clock or our circadian rhythms out of line with the
environment that we're in.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. Yesterday I was telling you when
half final wasn't today, and hit me at I thought
I'd baiting it.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I was wearing a real hero for having my chairs.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I'm I'm fine, I'm back at work, and then today
my leads feel about one hundred kilos ech. So, yeah,
you're timing. You couldn't be better with that one. It
really has got me. If people are feeling like their
pressure isn't high enough, what should they do?
Speaker 4 (08:56):
Well, it could be just making sure that they're up
enough time during the day.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
I think a good night sleep does start from the
morning before, right, you know, if you want to sleep
at say ten pm, then definitely try not to sleep
in much later than say six or seven that morning. Well,
ensure that you're able to have.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah, there's going to be a carryover from the day before. Yeah.
And what about exercise and actually physically wearing yourself out.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yeah, that can increase our pressure a little bit too.
But for someone if they had insomnia, I wouldn't say
go out and exercise four hours in the day, and
I think you sleep problems abound, that's definitely, But it's
about getting into that consistent routine. If we're exercising regularly,
we are going to sleep better over time.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Okay, so we've got pressure getting it as high as
we can for our head hits the pillow. Yeah, Cicadian rhythm,
nice consistency. Yeah, probably get little asterix next to the
jet lag. What else should people be doing?
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Yeah, So in terms of the Cicadian rhythm, I think
getting some morning sunlight can be really good. Oh okay, yeah,
so even twenty minutes of sunlight in those first few
hours is going to help you wake up for the
day as well as help you feel tired at the
right times at nighttime. And then the third is all
about arousal. So often, especially with people with insomnia, the
main f actors house stress. They are how much they
can't calm down their body or switch off the mind.
(10:05):
So it's doing things to wind down before bed, but
also doing things to manage stress during the day. And
then if they're in bed and they're getting stressed out,
what can they focus on or what can they do
to keep that low?
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So I promised I wouldn't bring my wife up again,
but I'm going to. She likes to be busy, she
likes to be active, she likes to be doing things.
But I give advice like hallroom, darkroom, no screens and phones,
you know, let's wind down properly. She gets almost tense
(10:40):
by the thought of all of those things. And so
her argument to me, and probably pretty fair, is that
doesn't relax me. In fact, it does the opposite. So
she'll say to me, let's watch some crappy series on
Netflix or whatever. She falls asleep on my chest in
about four seconds. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Yeah, I think you're spot on. So arousal plays a
huge impact on our sleep, and if we're too stressed
out or our mind's too active, we're not going to
sleep well. And so whatever we can do to lower it,
it doesn't matter what it is. If it works for
that person, then stick with that. Yeah, okay, And so
it might be that meditation helps some people, but for
others it does stress them out or it makes it worse.
And if it does that, then I wouldn't recommend that
(11:24):
as a strategy for them.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, I've been a little bit too rigid. I think
what about going to bed too close to exercise? I mean,
is that something that does spike arousal for a lot
of people and they don't have the proper wine down.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
So if we're again thinking in terms of what's ideal,
we'd probably not want to do too much to exercise
in that last two to three hours before bed.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Okay, there are some more recent studies that's safe. For
some people it doesn't matter so much, and that they're
able to exercise pretty close to bedtime, it's still sleep
pretty well. But for the average person, I'd say if
they're trying to sleep at ten thirty, if they can
stop by seven thirty or eight, then it's not going
to have too much of a negative impact and it
should be more of a net positive yea.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And what about food digestion and eating or snacking too
close to bedtill?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Yeah, I do think that is important. I have an
or ring which tracks a lot of different variables from
my health, and what I've noticed is on those nights
where I eat a heavy meal, especially too late or
too close to bedtime, my resting heart rate is high
for quite a while even after I fall in asleep.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Interesting.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Yeah, so probably about a three hour window for that
would be ideal as well. So if we're going to
about eleven to stop by eight.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, I like that. What about these tools, these sleep
feedback tools like the or Ring the Whoop? I don't
really I can't think of others by name off the
top of my head, but they're two very popular ones.
What is your advice on those for people? Would you
recommend either of those or both of those?
Speaker 4 (12:47):
I would say it depends. I love them both a
fit bit and or and I look at the data
and I find that it helps me to look after
myself and for people, if it does that for them,
it's great. If people feel like they're not getting any
sleep at all, it could be really good for them
to use one of those as well and to notice
that maybe they're getting a little bit more sleep than
it feels like. Yeah, but it can be sometimes the
(13:09):
opposite in that it shows that they're waking a little
bit more than what they think, and that can produce
more anxiety for people.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah. That's a really good answer, isn't it. Because if
you infatuate or fixate on the data and it's an
unhealthy obsession, then you can really get in your head
and you can start to overthinking.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
What about alcohol, I would say it has a much
more negative impact than most people would realize.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Well, we almost, we must tell ourselves it helps almost.
I have a nice glass of red and I'll put
me or I'll have a little you know, I'll have
a little nightcap or whatever. You know, we use terms
like that, and you might fall asleep more easily, but
you don't you don't know the quality of your sleep
when you're in it.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
I've definitely noticed that with the trackers that I use
for myself as well, that it increases the resting heart rate,
It decreases our heart rate variability. It definitely lowers those recoveries.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yeah, okay, so they're the two.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
There are two sort of factors that we look at,
and it doesn't have to be much. It can even
just be two drinks and it will lower that recovery
score for the next day. What about napping, I would
say napping is good, right, with some limitations. Okay, so
I do think there's a big difference between say a
twenty minute pound ap and two hours, yeah, and napping
(14:22):
for four hours during the day, which is really just
spending too long in bed. Yeah, and with the power
app if it means that you wake up refreshed after it,
and it means that you're able to get through the
rest of the day better, and then you're still able
to sleep pretty well that night because it shouldn't impact
your night's sleep too much.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
That's great. I mean, as soon as I asked the question,
I was thinking back to the pressure point that you
brought up. You know, if you do nap for too long,
surely that's going to have pulled your pressure down if
you're still going well, I normally get a bed at ten.
I stuck a two hour napy and I'm still going
to try to get a bet at ten. Let's say
we're tossing and turning and we're not getting into good
(14:57):
quality sleep at all. You know, we might be in
bed for four or five hours, but we've never really
got into good quality sleep at all. And that's happening
night after night after night. What actually happens to our
bodies and brains. From a physiological perspective, I do think it.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Just puts a lot more pressure on our immune system.
I think we're more likely to get sick over time.
And there is some more recent data that's even saying
that if you have long term problems, it can lead
to increased risk of Alzheimer's.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
So I know that there are those health complications, but
I do think it's important to know that there's extremes.
So if you're sleeping somewhere between say five and eight hours,
it's probably not going to be heaps of negative impact
over time. But if you're only sleeping say two, three
or four hours a night, then people will really start
to see those negative impacts building up quite quickly. So
(15:47):
the first week, first two weeks, they're going to start
to get really tired, find it hard to do what
they want to during the day, and then unless they're
addressing that, it can get worse and worse.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I'm glad you brought that up, because I think I
think we tend to go straight to the short practical implications,
you know, the commliness, the forgetfulness that you know, not
struggling at work a bit or whatever it might be.
But actual long term health ramifications in these extreme cases
I think is really important to point out.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
Yeah, and so I guess the last thing I'd say
about that is it is important to get help. And
if you get help. It can make a big difference.
My clinical trial was four sessions across eight weeks, and
that improved most people that we saw. Yeah, right, Whereas
if people don't address it at all, those sleep problems
can remain for ten twenty thirty years.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
What advice can you give to our listeners out there
to give them a bit of a shakeup?
Speaker 4 (16:36):
I try to give people this sense of try it
as an experiment. You know, let's prioritize this for a
few weeks or a month and see what difference it
makes in your life. Now, after that month it doesn't
feel like it's worth the time, then maybe you don't
have to make that a priority and you can focus
on the other two and maybe that's enough. But if
they're really not prioritizing it's probably having some type of
(16:56):
negative impact, even if they don't realize it. So focusing
on a little bit more improving their sleep and seeing
the benefits can be enough to then help them to
keep doing it.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
It's really good advice. I was sort of as I
was asking you that question, I was thinking I was
putting it in the exercise in my own you know,
for my own advice that I give people and I
adopt a pretty similar attitude. You know, if you try
too hard to push it on someone, they just push
back or falls on deaf ears that I want to
know about it, But just get up a movie body
(17:27):
for thirty minutes, five days a week, and if you
don't feel better in a month, you'll never hear from
me again. And guess what, none in on people out
of one hundred and eight. Thanks so much. I'm definitely
going to keep doing this, you know, if they've actually
done it consistently. So I think that's I think that's
really good advice to our listeners. What does your book
have in it that we didn't discuss today? I'm far
(17:49):
more comprehensive, obviously, But what can people expect from your
book outside of what we each added to today, Because
I think it'd be really good to let them know.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Yeah, it's a ten step process, right, Okay, So it
walks people through in terms of how can they really
identify what their problems are? Where can they get the
information they need, What are the best strategies out there?
How can they figure out which strategy is going to
be best for the problem they're trying to fix?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
It really individualizes it like that.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
How can we put this plan into place? How can
we do a bit of an assessment beforehand to see
where you're at and then doing it and tracking it,
see how it goes afterwards. And if you don't know
where you're at, how you're going to know if you're
improve exactly?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Exactly? Yeah, and sleeps the hardest one it can be.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
But with the sleep trackers now and people can do
a sleep direa, they can fill out some questionnaires. There
are some ways to get a good picture in here.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I like that. I like that. So they can find
it at book topia. And where can they find you
if they want to track you down?
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Yeah, so people can check me out at demon Ashurth
psychology dot com and send a message. I'll always respond
to it.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Thank you so much, dam for your time and I
learn a lot. Thanks so much for Johnny's on the
woodline as thank you. Well, there you go. A great
chat with Damon and I'm feeling more awake than I
was half an hour ago. And I mean that. I
think with Damon that I really liked was he wasn't extreme,
(19:12):
he wasn't trying to be controversial for being controversial sake,
I see a lot of stuff out there, not just
in sleep, food and exercise, all of it. And I
think in an effort to be the be the food
guy or be the sleep girl or whatever it is,
they come out with these really extreme approaches that often
make you feel really guilty. And he didn't do that.
(19:33):
And even his advice regarding snais about saying, look, whatever
works is the most important thing here and don't feel
like it has to be by the book if that's
actually having the opposite impact with a really powerful learning
for me, and to make sure I take that home tonight.
And next up, we have a great exercise question from
one of our wood Lifelessness. So this question is coming
(20:02):
through from Alsa, and it's not the type of exercise
question that you might expect, but it's actually when I've
had numerous times, and it's a really really good question
because whether it's a tragedy like Alsa has recently experienced,
or something else extreme that has happened in your life
(20:27):
that has totally thrown your world into chaos, you can
relate to what else is asking. And here's her question.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Hi, Sam. My question is around getting back into a
healthy routine after the loss of people you love. I've
recently lost both my parents within the space a couple
of months, and I'm struggling to get back into a
healthy routine of eating and fitness, even though that's something
I've always enjoyed doing. Just wondering if you have any
(20:56):
suggestions on what I can do to help get that
back on track.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
First of all, answer, I'm sincerely sorry for your loss.
I've actually had this question quite a bit, typically from
people from my twenty eight program who were in wonderful
routines and then a tragedy of some kind happens in
their life and they really do lose their way. So
the advice that I'm going to give you is advice
that I've given them, And the first thing I say
(21:25):
is don't rush, don't stress yourself out about it, don't
put too much pressure on yourself. I think the advice
here needs to be twofold. It needs to be your
great wellness routine that you're probably in beforehand, will wait,
can wait, and is never going to be as important
(21:48):
as losing people that you love so dearly. That being said,
when we are in a really really challenging time, doing
things that build our resilience, build our strength, give us energy,
connect us with the people, give us focus or distraction
(22:13):
can be really powerful, and working out, exercising, cooking, food
prep all of those things are great examples of that category.
So you need to be ready, you know, you definitely,
and perhaps the fact that you are calling in and
asking me that question means that you are ready or
(22:35):
you are close to being ready, So I think that's
a really good sign. The I guess the key here
is start back with baby steps. It might be exercising
every second day. It might be healthy breakfasts just to
get you up and going in the morning and build
from there so you're not putting too much pressure on yourself.
(22:58):
The process with grief and dealing with such a tragedy
is not a linear one. You're not just going to
get a little bit better every day because you do.
You're going to have okay days, and you're gonna have
terrible days. You're gonna have okay mornings, and then you're
going to have days where you completely can't handle anything,
which is absolutely normal and understandable. So I think baby steps,
(23:23):
focusing on any type of exercise that you like the most,
don't do stuff that you don't like doing, don't do
stuff that's super super hard. Do stuff that's going to
get a bit of a sweat, going to get those
endorphins pumping and going to make you feel a little
bit better from a mental perspective, and then the physicals
just a bonus. And I think if you start there
with a nice, yummy breakfast that's full of good stuff
(23:46):
that's going to give you some energy, and a nice
early morning sweat session even every second day, that would
be my advice where to start. And then you listen
to your body and you listen to your brain. If
that makes you feel better, if that helps you cope
with this really really hard time, even just a little bit,
then maybe do a little bit more and build from there.
(24:08):
But as soon as you feel like it's having a
detrimental effect, back it off, and as soon as you
feel that it's helping, do a little bit more to
see where the sweet spot is. So there we go.
Great to be back. I have missed you all. I
mean that sincerely. I'm going to take Damon's advice. You're
not going to be too early tonight, but I still
(24:29):
do need I think, one good night sleep to get
myself back on track. So with that said, of course,
please send in your questions, sending anything else you'd like
to talk about. There's a link in the show notes
where you can do that. Until next week, I'm going
home for a little nap. See ya.
Good everyone, Sam here. I am back and great to
be back. I mean this sincerely. I think as much
on New York was incredible, amazing. I'm not saying New
York was terrible by any stretch. It was great. But
I really do love coming home and it sometimes takes
an overseas trip for us to realize how lucky we
are to have such a beautiful country here and a
(00:24):
beautiful life here in Australia. I've been thinking about that
a lot over the last sort of twenty four hours
since I've been back, literally only been back for thirty
six hours. So you forgive me if I'm a little
bit a little bit sleepy, and we'll talk about that
a little bit more because we are going to talk
sleep today with someone who is an absolute sleep expert,
has worked one on one with clients as a psychologist
(00:46):
in the specific sleep field for nearly a decade, So
match sure you hang around for that could be a
total life changer if that is an area you struggling.
Then We've got a really interesting question from one of
our Woodlife listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
My question is around getting back into a healthy routine
after the loss of people you love. I've recently lost
both my parents within the space a couple of months,
and I'm struggling to get back into a healthy routine
of eating and fitness, even though that's something I've always
enjoyed doing. Just wondering if you have any suggestions on
(01:17):
what I can do to help get that back on track.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
That's all coming up next.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Welcome back to the WOODLFE.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
The timing couldn't be better because I've just done thirty
nine hour flight back from the US. I was thirty
nine hours total travel, not on the plane, but total
travel with the levy. So I'm a little bit weary.
But we've got just the guest to fix that. Doctor
day Ashworth is a clinical psychologist. He's done a lot
of work in the sleep space. In fact, he works
(02:04):
specifically with sleep clients for over eight years, and he's
just released a book called Deliberately Better Sleep. Damon. Welcome
to the WOODLFE and thanks for joining us, and hopefully
I don't not off. Thanks for having me on snares.
My wife and I the one thing we fight about
is not money. It's not about the kids, it's not
about I don't know, not spending enough time with each other.
(02:27):
It is about sleep. Because we genuinely argue about the
fact that she doesn't get enough sleep, and I say
to her, you need to sleep better and our relationship
be better too, because it's not only her not getting
enough sleep. We're mismatching. Was it a disconnecting I'm trying
to go to a bed a bit earlier and she
doesn't want to. And how many people struggle with sleep?
(02:49):
And do you see that with couples?
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Yeah, definitely. I think it's probably about thirty percent of
people struggle with sleep on any given night, right, So
it really can. Yeah, it can impact a lot of people.
And there's something called chronotypes, which is someone's body clock
or preference, and it's pretty understandable that people have different preferences.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yea.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
You know, some people might be more of a morning person,
some people might be an evening person. And generally that's
not the first thing that we're looking at when we're
choosing a partner.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, that wasn't a question I asked on The Bachelor.
What's sleep kind of type? It's something you do find
out once you're in the relationship. You know, we've got
three young kids, so sleep's been very disrupted for the
last five years. Literally almost. Yes, she is nocturnal and
likes to go a bit late, but she's still getting
up early. Okay.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
So would you say, is it is because of her
body clock type or she just doesn't prioritize.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
She'd say it is. I've never sort of tested that theory.
But I mean, there's what chronotype you are, and then
there's the reality of your life situation too, and I
mean she's just not getting enough. How much is the
magic number? I'd love to know what your what your
magic number is.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
I'd say there probably isn't a magic right, Okay, Okay,
we're looking at the recommendations from the government level. People
will say anywhere between seven to nine hours is healthy
amount for an adult. But I would say each person
is slightly different. So there are some people if they
get by on five or six hours a night, that's
enough for them, and then other people might need that
nine to ten hours a night, So it can vary
from person to person.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
So my concern is the people that are saying they
only need inverted commas five to six, how do they
know that that's actually true? And are there many of
them in your opinion that actually they do need more,
but they sort of hide behind set of saying that
I won't mention my wife one more time after this,
I promise, she tells me, I'm fine. I know her
(04:39):
very well. I can see that she's tired, probably more
mentally than physically, you know, like she's forgetting things and
she's I can see that it's definitely impacting her.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
I think that's the key thing what you're talking about there,
with the impact. If someone is getting six hours of
sleep at night, and they're sleeping really well, and they're
waking up refreshed, and they're feeling great during the day,
maybe they don't need more, right, But if they are
finding it hard to pay attention and work, or they're
finding it hard to do all the things that they
want to do in their life, to exercise as much
as they'd like or eat healthy, then there's probably a
(05:11):
something that they're not sleeping as much, and by increasing
a little bit more over the next week, see half
an hour at night, they might notice that they start
to feel a lot better.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yeah, so that's good advice, isn't it. Don't you don't
have to jump to eight just for a month, get
half an hour extra night. See if it does make
a positive impact and then you know, maybe go again
or find the sweet spot for you. I really liked that.
I saw a great quote on social media the other
day and it was, you know, there's all of this
ice bath and infrared sauna stuff going on, and it
(05:43):
was someone who I really admire on social media, super
smart guy that I follow, and he's like, got nothing
against infrared saunas and ice baths, but the amount of
dickheads that are fixating on these things and they just
don't get an sleep and they're they're not doing the
eighty percent and they're fixating on the two percenters of
(06:05):
the three percent is like, this is going to be
the savior to all of their recovery and recuperation and
mental sharpness and all this kind of stuff. He was
just saying, you've got to go back to basics.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
I read Outlive by doctor Peter Tire. Oh yeah, yeah,
and he said there's really only five things we need
to think about, and the fifth one he didn't even
go into. So the fifth one, there's certain supplements that
you can take, but the main four of the pillars
of health, which is exercise, nutrition, and sleep, they're the three,
and then the fourth is emotional health. And it really
does bring it back to unless you're doing these basics right,
(06:40):
then you don't necessarily want to focus on that extra
one to two percent.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah. I like that. So we've spoken about the number
and that can vary. Your book is called Deliberately Better
Sleep because it's not just about the amount, it's about
the quality. What are some tips from your book or
from all of this experience you've had working with people
to help improve the quality of your sleep that you
think are the I guess, the best bang for your
(07:07):
buck bits of advice that you give people. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
I think it's about understanding what leads to sleep difficulties
and what we can do about it.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
So I do bring it back to the underlying mechanisms.
And not a lot of people that talk about sleep
necessarily talk about these things.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Okay, So explain that a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
So they'll say what we need to do, but they
won't necessarily say why.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Okay, So I'll.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Talk to people about sleep pressure and how it's important
to make sure that that's high enough when we go
to bed at night time.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So what does that mean?
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Explain that to that sleep pressure is a homeostatic drive
so it's something that builds up in our brain. It's
a dentisceine and essentially the longer we're awake for the
higher that pressure gets. So we want it to be
nice and high when we go to bed at night.
And if someone needs eight hours of sleep, ideally we
want them to be out of bed for about fifteen
and a half hours at least, right.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
So you can go to bed too early and you
can not build that pressure up enough so that when
you go to bed you're not tired enough to get
a quality not sleep.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Yeah, and that can be especially problematic on say a Sunday,
in that someone goes out late Saturday night, they sleep
in till say eleven a m. Sunday, and then they
try to go to bed at nine nine pm that night.
That pressure is just not going to be high enough.
And that would bring to the second point, which is
around circadian rhythms or body clock yep, in that the
more consistent our sleep is from day to day, the
better it's going to be. And if we're going to
(08:22):
bed at the right times for ourselves as better as well.
So you've just come back from New York, that's going
to produce jet lag, which is essentially when our body
clock or our circadian rhythms out of line with the
environment that we're in.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. Yesterday I was telling you when
half final wasn't today, and hit me at I thought
I'd baiting it.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I was wearing a real hero for having my chairs.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I'm I'm fine, I'm back at work, and then today
my leads feel about one hundred kilos ech. So, yeah,
you're timing. You couldn't be better with that one. It
really has got me. If people are feeling like their
pressure isn't high enough, what should they do?
Speaker 4 (08:56):
Well, it could be just making sure that they're up
enough time during the day.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
I think a good night sleep does start from the
morning before, right, you know, if you want to sleep
at say ten pm, then definitely try not to sleep
in much later than say six or seven that morning. Well,
ensure that you're able to have.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah, there's going to be a carryover from the day before. Yeah.
And what about exercise and actually physically wearing yourself out.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yeah, that can increase our pressure a little bit too.
But for someone if they had insomnia, I wouldn't say
go out and exercise four hours in the day, and
I think you sleep problems abound, that's definitely, But it's
about getting into that consistent routine. If we're exercising regularly,
we are going to sleep better over time.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Okay, so we've got pressure getting it as high as
we can for our head hits the pillow. Yeah, Cicadian rhythm,
nice consistency. Yeah, probably get little asterix next to the
jet lag. What else should people be doing?
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Yeah, So in terms of the Cicadian rhythm, I think
getting some morning sunlight can be really good. Oh okay, yeah,
so even twenty minutes of sunlight in those first few
hours is going to help you wake up for the
day as well as help you feel tired at the
right times at nighttime. And then the third is all
about arousal. So often, especially with people with insomnia, the
main f actors house stress. They are how much they
can't calm down their body or switch off the mind.
(10:05):
So it's doing things to wind down before bed, but
also doing things to manage stress during the day. And
then if they're in bed and they're getting stressed out,
what can they focus on or what can they do
to keep that low?
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So I promised I wouldn't bring my wife up again,
but I'm going to. She likes to be busy, she
likes to be active, she likes to be doing things.
But I give advice like hallroom, darkroom, no screens and phones,
you know, let's wind down properly. She gets almost tense
(10:40):
by the thought of all of those things. And so
her argument to me, and probably pretty fair, is that
doesn't relax me. In fact, it does the opposite. So
she'll say to me, let's watch some crappy series on
Netflix or whatever. She falls asleep on my chest in
about four seconds. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Yeah, I think you're spot on. So arousal plays a
huge impact on our sleep, and if we're too stressed
out or our mind's too active, we're not going to
sleep well. And so whatever we can do to lower it,
it doesn't matter what it is. If it works for
that person, then stick with that. Yeah, okay, And so
it might be that meditation helps some people, but for
others it does stress them out or it makes it worse.
And if it does that, then I wouldn't recommend that
(11:24):
as a strategy for them.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, I've been a little bit too rigid. I think
what about going to bed too close to exercise? I mean,
is that something that does spike arousal for a lot
of people and they don't have the proper wine down.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
So if we're again thinking in terms of what's ideal,
we'd probably not want to do too much to exercise
in that last two to three hours before bed.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Okay, there are some more recent studies that's safe. For
some people it doesn't matter so much, and that they're
able to exercise pretty close to bedtime, it's still sleep
pretty well. But for the average person, I'd say if
they're trying to sleep at ten thirty, if they can
stop by seven thirty or eight, then it's not going
to have too much of a negative impact and it
should be more of a net positive yea.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And what about food digestion and eating or snacking too
close to bedtill?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Yeah, I do think that is important. I have an
or ring which tracks a lot of different variables from
my health, and what I've noticed is on those nights
where I eat a heavy meal, especially too late or
too close to bedtime, my resting heart rate is high
for quite a while even after I fall in asleep.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Interesting.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Yeah, so probably about a three hour window for that
would be ideal as well. So if we're going to
about eleven to stop by eight.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, I like that. What about these tools, these sleep
feedback tools like the or Ring the Whoop? I don't
really I can't think of others by name off the
top of my head, but they're two very popular ones.
What is your advice on those for people? Would you
recommend either of those or both of those?
Speaker 4 (12:47):
I would say it depends. I love them both a
fit bit and or and I look at the data
and I find that it helps me to look after
myself and for people, if it does that for them,
it's great. If people feel like they're not getting any
sleep at all, it could be really good for them
to use one of those as well and to notice
that maybe they're getting a little bit more sleep than
it feels like. Yeah, but it can be sometimes the
(13:09):
opposite in that it shows that they're waking a little
bit more than what they think, and that can produce
more anxiety for people.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah. That's a really good answer, isn't it. Because if
you infatuate or fixate on the data and it's an
unhealthy obsession, then you can really get in your head
and you can start to overthinking.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
What about alcohol, I would say it has a much
more negative impact than most people would realize.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Well, we almost, we must tell ourselves it helps almost.
I have a nice glass of red and I'll put
me or I'll have a little you know, I'll have
a little nightcap or whatever. You know, we use terms
like that, and you might fall asleep more easily, but
you don't you don't know the quality of your sleep
when you're in it.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
I've definitely noticed that with the trackers that I use
for myself as well, that it increases the resting heart rate,
It decreases our heart rate variability. It definitely lowers those recoveries.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yeah, okay, so they're the two.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
There are two sort of factors that we look at,
and it doesn't have to be much. It can even
just be two drinks and it will lower that recovery
score for the next day. What about napping, I would
say napping is good, right, with some limitations. Okay, so
I do think there's a big difference between say a
twenty minute pound ap and two hours, yeah, and napping
(14:22):
for four hours during the day, which is really just
spending too long in bed. Yeah, and with the power
app if it means that you wake up refreshed after it,
and it means that you're able to get through the
rest of the day better, and then you're still able
to sleep pretty well that night because it shouldn't impact
your night's sleep too much.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
That's great. I mean, as soon as I asked the question,
I was thinking back to the pressure point that you
brought up. You know, if you do nap for too long,
surely that's going to have pulled your pressure down if
you're still going well, I normally get a bed at ten.
I stuck a two hour napy and I'm still going
to try to get a bet at ten. Let's say
we're tossing and turning and we're not getting into good
(14:57):
quality sleep at all. You know, we might be in
bed for four or five hours, but we've never really
got into good quality sleep at all. And that's happening
night after night after night. What actually happens to our
bodies and brains. From a physiological perspective, I do think it.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Just puts a lot more pressure on our immune system.
I think we're more likely to get sick over time.
And there is some more recent data that's even saying
that if you have long term problems, it can lead
to increased risk of Alzheimer's.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
So I know that there are those health complications, but
I do think it's important to know that there's extremes.
So if you're sleeping somewhere between say five and eight hours,
it's probably not going to be heaps of negative impact
over time. But if you're only sleeping say two, three
or four hours a night, then people will really start
to see those negative impacts building up quite quickly. So
(15:47):
the first week, first two weeks, they're going to start
to get really tired, find it hard to do what
they want to during the day, and then unless they're
addressing that, it can get worse and worse.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I'm glad you brought that up, because I think I
think we tend to go straight to the short practical implications,
you know, the commliness, the forgetfulness that you know, not
struggling at work a bit or whatever it might be.
But actual long term health ramifications in these extreme cases
I think is really important to point out.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
Yeah, and so I guess the last thing I'd say
about that is it is important to get help. And
if you get help. It can make a big difference.
My clinical trial was four sessions across eight weeks, and
that improved most people that we saw. Yeah, right, Whereas
if people don't address it at all, those sleep problems
can remain for ten twenty thirty years.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
What advice can you give to our listeners out there
to give them a bit of a shakeup?
Speaker 4 (16:36):
I try to give people this sense of try it
as an experiment. You know, let's prioritize this for a
few weeks or a month and see what difference it
makes in your life. Now, after that month it doesn't
feel like it's worth the time, then maybe you don't
have to make that a priority and you can focus
on the other two and maybe that's enough. But if
they're really not prioritizing it's probably having some type of
(16:56):
negative impact, even if they don't realize it. So focusing
on a little bit more improving their sleep and seeing
the benefits can be enough to then help them to
keep doing it.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
It's really good advice. I was sort of as I
was asking you that question, I was thinking I was
putting it in the exercise in my own you know,
for my own advice that I give people and I
adopt a pretty similar attitude. You know, if you try
too hard to push it on someone, they just push
back or falls on deaf ears that I want to
know about it, But just get up a movie body
(17:27):
for thirty minutes, five days a week, and if you
don't feel better in a month, you'll never hear from
me again. And guess what, none in on people out
of one hundred and eight. Thanks so much. I'm definitely
going to keep doing this, you know, if they've actually
done it consistently. So I think that's I think that's
really good advice to our listeners. What does your book
have in it that we didn't discuss today? I'm far
(17:49):
more comprehensive, obviously, But what can people expect from your
book outside of what we each added to today, Because
I think it'd be really good to let them know.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Yeah, it's a ten step process, right, Okay, So it
walks people through in terms of how can they really
identify what their problems are? Where can they get the
information they need, What are the best strategies out there?
How can they figure out which strategy is going to
be best for the problem they're trying to fix?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
It really individualizes it like that.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
How can we put this plan into place? How can
we do a bit of an assessment beforehand to see
where you're at and then doing it and tracking it,
see how it goes afterwards. And if you don't know
where you're at, how you're going to know if you're
improve exactly?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Exactly? Yeah, and sleeps the hardest one it can be.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
But with the sleep trackers now and people can do
a sleep direa, they can fill out some questionnaires. There
are some ways to get a good picture in here.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I like that. I like that. So they can find
it at book topia. And where can they find you
if they want to track you down?
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Yeah, so people can check me out at demon Ashurth
psychology dot com and send a message. I'll always respond
to it.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Thank you so much, dam for your time and I
learn a lot. Thanks so much for Johnny's on the
woodline as thank you. Well, there you go. A great
chat with Damon and I'm feeling more awake than I
was half an hour ago. And I mean that. I
think with Damon that I really liked was he wasn't extreme,
(19:12):
he wasn't trying to be controversial for being controversial sake,
I see a lot of stuff out there, not just
in sleep, food and exercise, all of it. And I
think in an effort to be the be the food
guy or be the sleep girl or whatever it is,
they come out with these really extreme approaches that often
make you feel really guilty. And he didn't do that.
(19:33):
And even his advice regarding snais about saying, look, whatever
works is the most important thing here and don't feel
like it has to be by the book if that's
actually having the opposite impact with a really powerful learning
for me, and to make sure I take that home tonight.
And next up, we have a great exercise question from
one of our wood Lifelessness. So this question is coming
(20:02):
through from Alsa, and it's not the type of exercise
question that you might expect, but it's actually when I've
had numerous times, and it's a really really good question
because whether it's a tragedy like Alsa has recently experienced,
or something else extreme that has happened in your life
(20:27):
that has totally thrown your world into chaos, you can
relate to what else is asking. And here's her question.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Hi, Sam. My question is around getting back into a
healthy routine after the loss of people you love. I've
recently lost both my parents within the space a couple
of months, and I'm struggling to get back into a
healthy routine of eating and fitness, even though that's something
I've always enjoyed doing. Just wondering if you have any
(20:56):
suggestions on what I can do to help get that
back on track.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
First of all, answer, I'm sincerely sorry for your loss.
I've actually had this question quite a bit, typically from
people from my twenty eight program who were in wonderful
routines and then a tragedy of some kind happens in
their life and they really do lose their way. So
the advice that I'm going to give you is advice
that I've given them, And the first thing I say
(21:25):
is don't rush, don't stress yourself out about it, don't
put too much pressure on yourself. I think the advice
here needs to be twofold. It needs to be your
great wellness routine that you're probably in beforehand, will wait,
can wait, and is never going to be as important
(21:48):
as losing people that you love so dearly. That being said,
when we are in a really really challenging time, doing
things that build our resilience, build our strength, give us energy,
connect us with the people, give us focus or distraction
(22:13):
can be really powerful, and working out, exercising, cooking, food
prep all of those things are great examples of that category.
So you need to be ready, you know, you definitely,
and perhaps the fact that you are calling in and
asking me that question means that you are ready or
(22:35):
you are close to being ready, So I think that's
a really good sign. The I guess the key here
is start back with baby steps. It might be exercising
every second day. It might be healthy breakfasts just to
get you up and going in the morning and build
from there so you're not putting too much pressure on yourself.
(22:58):
The process with grief and dealing with such a tragedy
is not a linear one. You're not just going to
get a little bit better every day because you do.
You're going to have okay days, and you're gonna have
terrible days. You're gonna have okay mornings, and then you're
going to have days where you completely can't handle anything,
which is absolutely normal and understandable. So I think baby steps,
(23:23):
focusing on any type of exercise that you like the most,
don't do stuff that you don't like doing, don't do
stuff that's super super hard. Do stuff that's going to
get a bit of a sweat, going to get those
endorphins pumping and going to make you feel a little
bit better from a mental perspective, and then the physicals
just a bonus. And I think if you start there
with a nice, yummy breakfast that's full of good stuff
(23:46):
that's going to give you some energy, and a nice
early morning sweat session even every second day, that would
be my advice where to start. And then you listen
to your body and you listen to your brain. If
that makes you feel better, if that helps you cope
with this really really hard time, even just a little bit,
then maybe do a little bit more and build from there.
(24:08):
But as soon as you feel like it's having a
detrimental effect, back it off, and as soon as you
feel that it's helping, do a little bit more to
see where the sweet spot is. So there we go.
Great to be back. I have missed you all. I
mean that sincerely. I'm going to take Damon's advice. You're
not going to be too early tonight, but I still
(24:29):
do need I think, one good night sleep to get
myself back on track. So with that said, of course,
please send in your questions, sending anything else you'd like
to talk about. There's a link in the show notes
where you can do that. Until next week, I'm going
home for a little nap. See ya.
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In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com