February 2, 2022 • 65 mins
Paul is an executive and career coach, licensed psychologist, former human resources leader, and friend of the podcast who’s generously agreed to guide us through his steps for making a career change.
Paul shares his approach for:
- Finding your values and interests beyond your academic discipline through self-discovery questions he poses to clients
- Crafting your “work story” and framing how your skills and talents can apply outside your academic and work experience
- Building and tapping into your network (and yes, you have to network, but it's not as bad as it sounds)
- Navigating interviewers who question a lack of “relevant work experience”
- Learning the skills a new job demands
Yes, it’s infinitely easier to update your resume and indiscriminately apply to jobs. But slow, steady, and strategic is the better bet according to the experts, our guest included.
Books & other resources mentioned
The 20-Minute Networking Meeting by Marcia Ballinger and Nathan Perez
Unique Ability by Catherine Nomura, Julia Waller, Shannon Waller
Free career aptitude and personality assessments guide
Where to find Paul and Global Talent Strategies
Check out more from The Work Seminar
Visit theworkseminar.com or find @TheWorkSeminar on social media.
Sign up for The Work Seminar newsletter to receive updates straight to your inbox.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesse Butts (00:04):
Welcome to The Work Seminar, the podcast for people
with liberal arts advanceddegrees considering work outside
their fields of study.
(00:24):
Hi, everyone, thanks for joiningus. I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Welcome to another episode ofThe Work Seminar. Today we're
doing things a littledifferently. We have a special
episode with Paul Erdahl, who'san executive coach and career
coach. Rather than an episodefocused on somebody's story from
grad school to their currentwork, Paul has been gracious
(00:47):
enough to join us to share someadvice and strategies for people
like us with liberal artsadvanced degree, who are looking
for work they'll enjoy in fieldsthat might not have direct or
arguably even tangentialexperience in. So Paul, thank
you. Thank you for joining us.
Paul Erdahl (01:03):
Thank you, Jesse.
It's great to be here.
Jesse Butts (01:05):
Glad to have you.
And just to give our listeners alittle background, Paul, I know
that you earned your PhD incounseling psychology, and that
you you did work as a practicingpsychologist. And after a few
years of that, you made the leapinto human resources where you
worked as an HR executive at acouple of larger healthcare
companies, which is where,incidentally, Paul and I met. We
(01:28):
are former coworkers, and we'vestayed in touch for going on
close to 10 years now. And thenin 2004, you found it, you
founded, excuse me, your ownbusiness, where you've been
helping executives find work, aswell as improve their
performance at work.
Paul Erdahl (01:47):
Right. Since 2014.
Just to clarify.
Jesse Butts (01:50):
Oh, I'm sorry.
2014.
Paul Erdahl (01:52):
Yeah.
Jesse Butts (01:53):
Yeah, we would have been coworkers when I was in
college if that were 2004. Allright. Anything else about your
background before we get into ityou think our listeners should
know? Or should we just go aheadand get right started?
Paul Erdahl (02:05):
No, I do think...thank you, Jesse for
that overview. As you mentioned,I started with dreams of being a
career psychologist doingtherapy and working with people,
in particular people inhospital-based settings with
chronic disease or other typesof things, but then moved into
the HR space, and in particular,in the areas of organizational
(02:28):
development and leadershipdevelopment. And so that's what
I've been doing. And some of thethings we'll talk about today
are really based on working withpeople who have gone through
transition in their careers, andhow did they make that
transition? And what types ofthings that they need to reflect
on and think about? And how didthey make that happen?
Jesse Butts (02:46):
All right, perfect.
That sounds great. So as youalready know, our listeners have
advanced degrees in a liberalarts field. Let's just start off
with a hypothetical. So saysomebody with that
background...Maybe they've beenteaching or adjunct teaching, or
they've been working a varietyof different jobs to make ends
meet. And now they're ready fora change. Maybe they want more
(03:08):
stable income, maybe they wantbetter hours, maybe what they
thought they would love aftergrad school didn't quite pan
out. Overall, it's this feelingof being stuck. So when you're
sitting in a situation likethis, where you do feel stuck,
what do you recommend? Where dowe even begin with something
(03:30):
seemingly so large andoverwhelming to some?
Paul Erdahl (03:37):
Well, the way you've just outlined that it is
large, and it is overwhelming.
And I think for many people,that is the challenge that they
really face, is thinking about,What are the things that I'm
looking for? Am I looking for abetter salary? Am I looking for
a job that is just 40 hours aweek? Or do I really want to do
something that's new ordifferent? Maybe aligned with a
(03:59):
sense of purpose or passion thatI have about something? How do I
start to get into that kind ofan environment and be doing
something I find meaningful andsomething that's rewarding? You
know, the big question, Jesse,and the thing where I really
start with people, when I workwith them is to be thinking
about, let's start with, how doyou answer the question, What do
(04:22):
you want to do? And that'ssomething that many people
struggle with. Because theanswer is, I don't know what I
want to do. And I don't knowexactly how to get there from
here. And so part of thechallenges, and the opportunity,
is really to stop and say, Well,let's reflect on areas that
you've experienced throughoutyour life, whether it be through
your schooling, growing up, inyour career that you've had thus
(04:46):
far. What are those things thatyou really value? What are those
things you appreciate? Andreally starting with that
personal self exploration, toget a sense of, Okay, what's
going to be meaningful andrelevant? And what's most
important to me as I go forward?
Jesse Butts (05:03):
Can we pause there for a second?
Paul Erdahl (05:05):
Mmhmm.
Jesse Butts (05:06):
So a lot of our guests, they love being in
history class and spending timein the library. So they've
gotten, you know, that PhD inhistory, and they really thought
a tenure track position would bethat fit. And maybe it's because
of market reasons or otherfactors, that just isn't going
(05:27):
to be reality. So how, how doyou use this type of assessment,
these questions, to, for lack ofa better term, it probably isn't
the the one you use in yourfield, but to come up with a
plan B?
Paul Erdahl (05:39):
Right.
Jesse Butts (05:40):
You know, where were the first thing that you
really felt passionate about,for whatever reason, just isn't
something you can attain, or youfeel that the work to attain it
isn't worth it.
Paul Erdahl (05:52):
Right. And I think Jesse, and I can certainly
share, I started my career, mypassion, my desire, right out of
undergraduate, I wanted to be atherapist. That's what I wanted
to be. And I wanted to focus onworking with people, and I
wanted to be in those kinds ofenvironments. And I did that for
about 5, 6, 7, 8 years, I forgetexactly how long it was. But
(06:14):
after a time it was, we allmature, we all grow, we all
start to experience differentthings. We start to understand
some different things. And Ithink even if it's something,
and you're kind of describing adifferent scenario where that is
what I love to do but there'snothing there for me to or no
place for me to take that. Andso either one of those scenarios
(06:34):
really calls on us to stop andsay, Okay, how do I look at
myself? How do I look a littlebit at the world of work? How do
I start to think differentlyabout things? And where can I
take my skills? And how can Itransfer those into a different
situation and a differentsetting? And how do we think
about those...And I know, eveneven when I wanted to move out
(06:58):
of my career, my identity and myself image, and the way I
conceptualize things, was verymuch as a therapist and a
psychologist. And I didn't evenknow how to spell HR at that
point. And it was yet anopportunity for me to start to
think about how do I leveragethese skills in these abilities
(07:20):
in a different context? And Ithink whether you're a history
major, or an English major, oryou've been a philosopher or
whatever, how do you start tothink about, What are those
skills and capabilities that Ihave? And how can I step into a
different environment andleverage those to add value? And
to do something that I findthat's meaningful and relevant
(07:43):
for me?
Jesse Butts (07:45):
What are some of those questions or exercises
that you encourage people to runthrough to be able to ascertain
that about themselves?
Paul Erdahl (07:54):
Yeah, it's, it's something that I really asked
people to kind of really reflectbackwards, not just to, here's
what my degree is, and thereforethis is what I need to do. But
think think back even furtherinto your junior high, your high
school years. What were thosethings? And in college. What are
those things that you reallyenjoyed? What did you really
(08:15):
value? Where did you findyourself getting excited and
really enjoying a class? Or, oran experience that you had? It
might have been, if people had achance to study abroad or in
different contexts or differentcultures, What were those things
that they really enjoyed? Andwhat...really driving that down
to, What were you doing in thatsituation? And what was it about
(08:40):
that that you really foundvaluable? Was it something where
you were helping other people?
Was it something where you weredoing research and exploring and
trying to understand new ideas?
Was it something that you werejust engrossed in, in terms of
your own personal learning onthings? I know for me, I know,
as I think back, I can thinkabout all those science projects
(09:02):
I did in junior high, in highschool that I really loved
doing. And I shared with manypeople, I originally when I
started as an undergraduate,thought I was going to be a
biology major, until I tookcollege level biology. And it
was like the worst class I'dever taken in my life. And it
became sort of these momentswhere you say, That was really
(09:24):
good to a point. But what werethose moments where I really
started to understand and seewhere could I apply things
differently? And so from thebiology degree to a psychology
degree, it was transferring to,Well, I wanted something that
was much more people orientedthan working in a laboratory,
dissecting things or studyingthings. I needed that
(09:46):
affiliation with other people.
It's actually a value, somethingthat I bring to the to the
table. I value working and beingengaging with other people. And
so how do I start to bring thatthen and think about where can I
leverage those skill sets andcapabilities to engage in that
type of environment>
Jesse Butts (10:04):
Yeah, you bring up something really interesting,
and something I didn't consideruntil later than I wish, which
is the values. I think, inschool, we're so obsessed,
focused, you know, pick yourterm, with what we're studying,
we forget about the the worldoutside of that. When I started
(10:29):
in marketing, it was kind of afluke. I knew I just wanted to
do something with writing, whichI had trained in. And I knew, I
liked being creative. But itwasn't until I really figured
out that I like being creative,I like being strategic, I like
being curious. And those arevery valuable to me. And using
(10:49):
those to help a person or acompany really do their best
work for the audience they caremost about.
Paul Erdahl (10:58):
Right.
Jesse Butts (10:59):
That's when it all kind of made sense to me. And
once I had, and this issomething I've borrowed from a
book called Unique Ability. Butonce you...in my situation, what
they advocate is figuring outthe values that are important to
you, and what you really like todo, and when you can marry
those, it's not like this magicdream job will necessarily pop
(11:20):
up. But you'll be able to startframing things exactly in a way
where you can look at things alittle bit more like, or less
than, Oh, this is one line itemin the job description. But is
overall this something that fitsin with those values, married
(11:41):
with the things that I do welland enjoy doing?
Paul Erdahl (11:44):
Yeah, well, you have just framed it up
perfectly, Jesse, and I thinkyou've identified what are those
underlying, regardless of whatyou've studied, regardless of
what career you're in now, whatare those things? If you think
about classic career coachingkind of perspective, it's about
what are your values? What arethose things that are important
(12:05):
to you that you need to have inyour ideal job? What are those
things you're interested in? Andin terms of, and we can go into
this in terms of what type ofwork do you like to do, with
whether it's retail or researchor academic kind of
environments, How do you startto think about where do you like
to be? And then it's alsobringing not just your values
(12:29):
and your interests but yourskills and abilities to bear?
And what skills and abilitieshave you had? I know people that
a lot of people in academics arepeople who have developed very
interesting skills on the sidewhere they've been...they have
artistic skills or capabilitiesthat they've leveraged, or they
spend their summers when theyhave off doing construction work
(12:52):
or other types of things. Theystart to develop this portfolio
of skills that isn't necessarilytied directly to their career,
but they have all these skillsand abilities. And then lastly,
Is there any particularknowledge and expertise that you
bring to the table? Becauseexactly what you said is, How do
you bring all those thingstogether through a self
(13:14):
exploration sort of process tounderstand what those elements
of yourself are? And then how doyou start to go looking for
career opportunities that alignwith those?And it's one thing to
get a job, it's another thing tobe able to be doing what you
love and you're passionateabout. And there's a time and a
(13:35):
place for both of those. Sodon't get me wrong. I'm
certainly aware sometimes I justneed a job right now. But in the
long term, I'm hoping, certainlymy value is I hope people can be
doing work that they value, andthey feel rewarding, and they
feel passionate and have a senseof purpose about.
Jesse Butts (13:52):
Yeah, and I think for some of us, that differs.
Some may wholeheartedly seekwhat you're describing. Others
may be more in a spot where, Ireally, really confining it to
nine to five with decent incomeso that after work, I can get
back into the studio, or writeor paint or research or
(14:17):
whatever. They're not looking tosupplant that passion from what
they studied. They're lookingfor something to enable that.
But still, to your point, Imean, it's still important to
find jobs that will make thatnine to five something more than
simply bearable.
Paul Erdahl (14:37):
Well, and at the risk of being too optimistic, I
think there may be opportunitiesout there to be doing those
things that you love after work.
How do you start to findopportunities where you can do
at least some of that, or partof that, or be around other
people who are doing similartypes of things that you can do
in that space? I certainly knowand understand that. There are
(14:59):
times when a job is a means toan end, when it is something
that provides you with theincome, the benefits, whatever
it might be, and then yourpassion and purpose is outside
of work. But on the other sideis, Is there any chance you can
find that sense of passion andpurpose in your work? And is
that even, is that possible? So,to some of your listeners who
(15:22):
may be coming from a, I justwanted to be a professor, a
tenured professor someplaceteaching or doing something that
was aligned with sort of a nonprofessional career as we think
about in business types ofthings, but more of an academic
type of career. I certainly knowthere are a lot of people who
have come out of academicsettings that have amazing
(15:44):
skills, amazing knowledge,amazing experience, that if they
can translate it into a languageand into a value proposition, as
we say in business, where youcan say, Here's how I can bring
value, and I can bring and havean impact for business,
(16:06):
leveraging my skills. Thoseopportunities, I think they're
out there. They may be hard tofind, I'm not gonna, I'm not
gonna soft sell that too much.
But it may be hard to find, butI think it might be worth
looking for, depending on whatyour circumstances are. I think
there are times, and I know,I've kind of been through
(16:28):
different transitions and timesin my life, when I knew I took a
job that was a temporary job.
You know, it was good for me,met my basic needs that I needed
to have met. But it wasn'tsomething I wanted to be doing
long term. But if you can findthat opportunity, where you're
doing what you love, and you'repassionate about, even during
that 40 hour work week, everyweek, that's a huge opportunity.
Jesse Butts (16:52):
And before we we move on to the steps after you
do this self discovery, just onelast question about that
process. Is this something wherethis is...one evening, we just
open up a spiral notebook andjust start rattling through
these questions? Is this, I'msure it differs for a lot of
(17:14):
different people you work with,but how much time should we plan
on this initial step of reallycoming to terms and
understanding, outside of pureacademics, what we really value,
what we're good at, and whatwill be important to us in our
(17:35):
work?
Paul Erdahl (17:36):
Yeah, great question. I think it probably
takes more time than most peoplethink it does. And it is
something that, that thehomework assignment that I give
people, I actually have a listof about 15,20 questions that I
tell people, I just want you togo, I want you to put pen to
paper, I want you to write outyour answers to these questions.
(17:57):
And I want you to think aboutthings. So I have the list in
front of me where I ask people,you know, first question is...In
the past year, what have beenthose career conversations going
on in your head? What's thedialogue that you're having with
yourself? Get people to becomemore self aware of things. I ask
people to think about theircareer and what are those things
(18:18):
that that really regeneratethem. And what are those things
that just drain their energy?
What are those things that theymay have to do, or there may be
things that they sometimes getstuck doing, that just is not in
the ballpark that they want tobe in? I also ask people to
think about accomplishments thatthey've had over the years. I
asked people to think about,What are the five words that you
(18:40):
would use to describe yourself?
And when you're at your best,what are those five words that
you would use? And then howwould people, your friends, your
family, your colleagues, Whatare the five words you they
might use to describe you? Andthen I get into some of the
things we talked about, What areyour three to five core values
that you think really guide youin your life? Or, describe what
(19:04):
you're doing in your best jobever if you could design it. And
if you knew you couldn't fail,what would you be doing right
now? And really start to helppeople dig into and reflect on
and think about these questions.
And then, in my coachingpractice, what I will do is
we'll spend several hours justgoing through these questions to
understand what what's behindwhat people are thinking about.
(19:27):
And as an aside, there are sometools and other types of things
that might also help kind ofspark some thinking. And many
people have used things like aMyers Briggs, or their career
interest inventories, ordifferent things that are out
there. And there are some, andI'd be happy to share some that
are free online versions ofthings. But it's just a way to
(19:47):
help. To your point earlier,it's a framework. How do I start
to frame up who am I? What aremy values? What are my
interests? What do I care about?
And what are the environments orthe spaces or the things I want
to be doing, and the places Iwant to be in, what do they
begin to look like for me? Andif people have got that all in a
(20:11):
box, and they say, Well, it'sthe job I have. right now. We
really kind of have to breakthat box open a bit. And we
really have to start saying,Your world is too narrow. You
have to begin to think outsideof that box. Because there are
other places where you can doand leverage those same values
and skills and capabilities andinterests.
Jesse Butts (20:32):
And we'll definitely add in the show notes
some links or descriptions ofsome of those resources. Paul,
thank you for mentioning those.
It sounds like to whether you'retalking about outside the box, I
guess the way I think about itis an underlying value. You
know, and again, if someonesays, Well, I loved studying
medieval French history,something I know very little
(20:56):
about, and if there are anymedieval French history
listeners out there, I apologizeprofusely for using this as an
example. But to me, that'snot...that's an interest. It's
not a value. But if you digdeeper, it's something like, I
really love researching topicsthat have fallen to the wayside,
(21:16):
or that involve people. Once youcan kind of separate that
particular academic interest orjust general interest to what's
beneath the surface.
Paul Erdahl (21:32):
Yeah.
Jesse Butts (21:32):
You know, for me, I mean, I've really enjoyed
writing, and I always associatedthat largely with my identity.
And I do a little bit less nowas I've grown older, but, this
is very cliche, but a lot ofpeople might think, What is it
about writing? And for somepeople, that's, you know,
they're more in the editor role.
They love turning chaos intosomething usable. Or if they're
(21:54):
more on the writing side, andthey really love creative
writing, because they lovecreating stories or highlighting
other people's stories. Thoseare very broad, broadly
applicable, underlying values.
Paul Erdahl (22:13):
The thing I would add to that, though, Jesse, as
I'm listening to you, and I'llpick on you as the writer here
for a second...
Jesse Butts (22:19):
Please.
Paul Erdahl (22:20):
That as a writer, I mean, writing is a skill.
Writing is a capability that youhave, but the question is, How
do you leverage your writing toadd value? And so, and I know
from having worked with you inthe past, you're somebody who
can create a story that helpscommunicate effectively to
(22:40):
employees in an organization, tocustomers who might be
interested in products. You havethe ability to take the
information and eloquently kindof create an engaging,
interesting storyline that doesengage people in a process that
(23:00):
might be involving sellingsomething, or promoting
something or whatever it mightbe. That the writing is a means
to an end. And what you werejust describing is, at the end
of the day, you're not a writer.
People aren't going to hire youjust to write. They're going to
hire you because you cancommunicate and you can, you can
sell and you can inspire and youcan motivate and you can do all
(23:23):
those things through effectivewriting as a skill set that
many, many people don't have.
Jesse Butts (23:32):
Yeah, absolutely. I would add to that, you can find
work as a writer. But you're notgoing to, or you're very likely
not going to, move up in payscale and responsibility, if you
cling to that writer identity.
Paul Erdahl (23:49):
Right. So I'm curious, Jesse, I mean, you did
move up in an organization. Youwere there. And as you started
to think about be taking ongreater responsibility, starting
from that writing background, aspeople become...you think about
people in an organization thatbecome more and more senior
leaders, it's because they'reable to then use their knowledge
(24:11):
and their expertise to thinkmore broadly. To think about,
What are these messages that weneed to create? When I think
about coaching executives, it'sabout you have to motivate
people, you have to inspirepeople, you have to set
strategy, you have to setdirection, you have to have a
vision or mission, all thosetypes of things at every step
along the way. It requires moreand more complex and broad
(24:38):
thinking about what are themessages that we want to
communicate. And so likewise,your friend with a, I forget
what you described it as, theFrench history major who has a
certain background andknowledge. Well, it might be a
narrow focus in terms ofknowledge, but what it tells me
(25:00):
is, This is somebody who knowshow to think. This is somebody
who knows how to conceptualize,knows how do we learn from
history? What are the lessonsfrom those experiences? What are
the things that ... How do webegin to think about why is that
relevant today? And how do Ithink about where would there be
(25:21):
similar types of things? It maynot be about French history, but
where are there similaropportunities to leverage my
interest in learning and tellingstories and communicating to
others? And how can I do that?
Jesse Butts (25:36):
Just to kind of reground ourselves in, not in
reality, but in the process abit. So let's say, let's assume
that we've done the homework. Wehave this really good sense of
our values, the work we do, whyit why it matters, what type of
value we can add to a company.
From there, what do yourecommend as steps to figure out
(26:01):
what are jobs that align tothis? Or maybe maybe a different
way to approach that is, How doI need to view things to see if
this is a good fit? You know,maybe it's not so much about,
Here are three or four jobtitles, as it is, Here are three
(26:23):
or four key things I want to seefrom an employer. Can you give
us a little advice in thatarena?
Paul Erdahl (26:34):
Yeah. And just to even back up from that discovery
process, those conversations,starting to think about what are
the transferable skills thatpeople have, to start to think
out of the box and start tobring people into thinking
about, Well, where might theseskills be applicable? The first
thing that I really work on, orthe second thing after we've
(26:56):
done the exploration, is tofocus on how are you going to
articulate that. And the analogythat I always use is, if you're
at a party, if you're out withfriends, or you're doing it not
in the middle of COVID, if youhave a chance to get out with
friends and you're talking topeople, and inevitably in the
conversation, you know, thequestion comes up, Well, tell me
(27:19):
about yourself? So you'remeeting new people, you're
connecting with new people, andthe question is, How do you
answer that? And it's easy forme to say, Well, for me, I grew
up in Minnesota, I come from afamily of five, I do this,
here's what I'm interested in.
But none of that is terriblyhelpful if I'm looking to change
careers. So what I encouragepeople is to, every time
(27:42):
somebody asks you a questionlike that, so tell me about
yourself, that is a careeropportunity for you to tell your
personal story. In myvernacular, it's, What's your
personal brand? What is it thatyou want to say about yourself?
And how does that help people tounderstand who you are, and how
you add value, and can add valuein different kinds of work
(28:04):
environments, because thatbecomes the essence of that.
That story, which I encouragepeople, by the way, speaking to
a writer, is 250 words or less.
So it's very short. Probably ahalf a page if you type it up.
And it is really focused on kindof describing here's who I am.
And so it may take on, if you'vealready got a career and you're
(28:27):
really focused on kind ofcontinuing in that, I might say,
Well, I'm an HR executive, and Iwant to do...with a background
in X, Y, or Z. But if I'm tryingto make a change from what I've
been doing to doing somethingelse, I need to start talking
about what are the skill setsthat I bring forward. I'll share
a story. I worked with a youngwoman who is a cognitive
(28:50):
psychologist, and she had spenther early career teaching. And
she was teaching and actuallyhad a job in a business school
where she was teachingstatistics and some research
kind of things, methodology. Andshe really wanted out of that.
And so the question was, Well,how do you start to think about
how do you tell your story? Andwho are you telling that story
(29:13):
to? After crafting that 250words, she had a story that
said, Here's who I amprofessionally, how she defined
herself. That's kind of thefirst paragraph. The second
paragraph of that story is,Here's what I'm known for. And
that might my ability to workeffectively with others. I
collaborate with others. I'mknown for my my critical
(29:35):
thinking skills or my problemsolving skills, whatever it
might be. Those are all skillsanybody in any field might have.
But how do you articulate thoseto describe, Here's what I do.
And then the third paragraph ofthat is really, What am I like
to add as an employee? You know,that I work hard, I'm a great
team member, or I'm a leader, orI'm a manager, or whatever the
(29:58):
situation might be. How do I getalong with and work with other
people? And then the last shortparagraph is, I'm interested in
exploring opportunities in, inher case, it was in Minneapolis
here, it was the medicaltechnology field. And so that
she kind of narrowed in andsaid, I want to look at jobs in
medical technology, which iswhere she ended up and landed.
Jesse Butts (30:22):
I want to make sure that, you know, for the
listeners, that I have thisclarified. So rather than going
for, Okay, I have my values andall this self discovery, let's
look at job titles. It's inbetween then, it's finding the
story, or sorry, crafting yourstory. And from there, it might
(30:46):
not be that finding a certainjob title is important to you.
You might not be like, Oh, thiscareer option really sounds
fascinating. It might be thisindustry, this type of
institution, this ability to beable to work from home
permanently. So are you, and Idon't mean to put words in your
(31:09):
mouth, but am I getting thatright? Should we be a little
less focused on the job that wemight find on LinkedIn versus
these other factors that you'vejust mentioned?
Paul Erdahl (31:22):
Yeah. And you're asking great questions. And what
I really...it's all about thestory. And then it's all about
talking to people. And I knowthere's tons of jobs out there.
And I just, you know, as I'm inthe news this week, a third of
people under 40 years old arelooking at new career
opportunities. Just saw that inthe Washington Post. And there,
(31:45):
there's a lot of churn out therein terms of careers and talent
right now. The thing where itstarts is that story is your
guide. Doesn't mean I knowexactly what job I want. But
it's my way of saying, Here'sthe space I want to play in. And
here's what I can bring to thatspace to add value. And that's
what's important to me. Now, thesteps in this, just to kind of
(32:09):
put this all in context is...soyou've done the self discovery,
now you've been able toarticulate your story, and
you've been able to get that in250 words or less. The next part
of this process is really thenetworking that needs to happen.
That cognitive psychologist Imentioned to you was quite an
introvert, and one of her firstquestions to me was, I'm not
(32:29):
going to have to network, am I?
And my response was, Yes, youneed to learn how to network,
and learning how to network isabsolutely critical. Because I
think there is a statistic, 65%of jobs don't come from just
applying online, but ratherthrough your connections,
through meeting people, gettingin front of people, finding out
that if I tell my story to myneighbor, my neighbor knows
(32:51):
somebody else that I should talkto, that be exactly the right
person. And I share with peoplethat networking, the goal of
networking is not necessarily toget a job. The goal of
networking is to expand yournetwork. And so that people know
who you are, they know whatmatters to you, they know what
you want to do. And because, Ithink Arnold Palmer once said,
(33:14):
The more I practice, the luckierI get. And at some point, you're
looking for those luckopportunities where you will
bump into the situation whereyou will find the job.
Jesse Butts (33:28):
You brought up something that is so divergent
from a lot of...maybe it's noteven advice, but just the M.O.
that we have. You think, Oh, myjob sucks, I need to look for a
new one. So that means I need toupdate my resume and I need to
spend every night looking forand applying for jobs. You're
saying that is the wrong way togo about it. You need to do the
(33:52):
self discovery, you need to comeup with your story. And then you
need to network. That the goingonline and finding jobs, that is
farther down the road, if atall, because that networking
might actually lead to the job.
Paul Erdahl (34:09):
Yeah, I'm hoping that it will. In most
situations, that's how peoplewill find jobs. And in fact, in
this day and age, if you're justapplying online, there may not
even be a person at the otherend of the system looking at
your resume. Resumes these daysgo into an applicant tracking
system. And what happens is,you're up against sort of the
(34:32):
logic of the system that'slooking at if-then equations on
things. And yes, you've got tohave all your right keywords in
there and you've got to havethose kinds of things. But if,
especially if, you're looking tomake a transition from one sort
of area of your career intosomething new, chances are
(34:53):
you're not going to be thesquare peg they're looking to
put in a square hole. They'regoing to be looking for somebody
who has the background who'sdone this before. Who has
experience doing this. And if wecan find somebody like that,
we're gonna put them in. Andyour resume may not even get
seen by anybody if nobody callsattention to it. So my
(35:15):
encouragement to people is youwant, if there's a job or you
hear about something, Iencourage you to try to network
your way in to talk to somebodyabout it before you even apply.
So that you can you can say,have somebody say, Okay, I know
who you are. Or even if it'ssomething, Jesse, if you applied
for a job at a company, and Ihappen to know, maybe I know one
(35:37):
person there, I can at leastdrop a note to that person and
say, Hi, I just want to let youknow that Jesse is a good...I've
known Jesse for years, I've seenhim, I've worked with him, he is
somebody that deserves yourattention in the selection
process. All I can do, and ifyou're not networking with the
person who's actually hiring forthe job, is to ask somebody to
(36:01):
bring attention to yourapplication or your interest in
the role.
Jesse Butts (36:09):
And I think there's something, there's a lot of
important things here. One thingis we see on the news so much
about, or maybe just the thenews that I'm reading, it's
probably not on the front page.
But over the last year inparticular, companies are making
big strides, some making realprogress, some doing lip
(36:33):
service, to DEI, which isDiversity, Equity, and
Inclusion. So things like, youknow, this should theoretically
curb employers for looking forpeople that fit their cognitive
biases. That, This jobrequires...because people who
(36:53):
have done well in this job havethis degree, or they have this
many years of experience, or allof these things. In theory, we
should see that eroding. Butobviously, there's reality. And
rather than waiting out forthose applicant tracking systems
to be perfected, and for thehuman resources departments, and
(37:15):
even more so the hiringmanagers, to understand the
flaws in some of theseapproaches, we need to take that
step now, or else we'll bewaiting for a long time.
Paul Erdahl (37:27):
Right. And that's it. At the end of the day, this
is all about interpersonaldynamics. It's all about
connecting with people, it's allabout making sure that people
know about you and understandyour story. So if you are coming
from a non-traditionalbackground, you have to be able
(37:49):
to let somebody know why you'rethe right person for that job.
Because you have the interest,because you have the skills,
because you can learn new thingsquickly and readily. Those are
all areas that are criticallyimportant for somebody who's on
the other end, a hiring manager.
First of all, the vast majorityof hiring managers don't do a
lot of hiring. It's notsomething that they're doing
(38:11):
every day unless they're in ahigh turnover kind of business
of some sort. But this issomething they do occasionally.
So you've got an HR person who'sbringing people in, and all of a
sudden, they have three or fourpeople they're interviewing.
It's a process, and you have tostand out. And you have to be
able to talk about why you'rethe right person for the job.
Even though you may not have theideal background for the
(38:33):
position. I think I shared withyou Jesse, in an earlier
conversation, but when I gotmy...when I left the hospital
setting that I was workingin...so I started working in a
hospital here in Minneapolis.
And I did do some work withinthat group in their HR group and
function. But my next job wasworking for what is now US Bank.
(38:54):
So I went from a hospital,traditional healthcare
environment into banking, whichI knew nothing about. And I was
fortunate that the woman whohired me, the one who is my
boss, somebody I still keep intouch with today, she saw
something in me. And aconversation that we had
triggered her to be thinkingabout, You can bring different
(39:17):
perspectives to the table. Youcan bring new ideas, you can
think differently than the otherpeople who all went to the same
school and got the same degreeand got the same training or
certification. Now I've gotsomebody who's coming in to
bring some different ways oflooking at things. She valued
that and she brought me in, andthat really took my career for
(39:41):
the next 20 years on acompletely different direction.
And it was because of thatconnection with her that that
was able to happen. And so dumbluck. I don't know what it was,
how we got connected on things,but that was the opportunity
that really changed the courseof my career. And so you got to
(40:05):
bump into those somehow.
Jesse Butts (40:07):
It's, and to put this in a business parlance, how
do you scale dumb luck? It's aninteresting question. But
seriously, if we could go backto networking...
Paul Erdahl (40:19):
Yeah.
Jesse Butts (40:20):
...mechanics for a bit. You know, we all have this
perception of, and I don't wantto spend too much time on that,
because there's so much, there'sso many resources out there with
with a quick Google search...Butwe have this idea of networking
being this sleaz mixer at theairport Ramada Inn, you know,
(40:41):
with a bunch of insurancesalespeople or...no, no
disrespect to insurancesalespeople, you provide a great
service. But how do we actuallystart networking? What do we do?
I mean, does it have to be thisseemingly awful thing that we
have built up in our heads?
Paul Erdahl (41:00):
Well, and I've certainly I've had those
meetings at the Ramada Inn. AndI know what those can be like. I
think that the way, the way Ikind of tell people is...and
again, I see networking as partof an exploratory process. If
you show up and you say, Hi, I'mlooking for a job doing X, Y, or
(41:20):
Z, most people will give you adumb stare and say, Well, I
don't have a job doing that. SoI can't help you. And so that's
the wrong approach. The approachthat I really encourage people
to think about is, this is alearning experience. I'm trying
to network with people who arein the areas that I might be
(41:41):
interested. Maybe they're inareas I'm not interested in, it
just kind of confirms that. ButI need to approach those as,
first of all, it's my meeting. Icalled it. If I got somebody, I
found them on LinkedIn, orsomebody introduced me, it's my
meeting. I need to show up, Ineed to have an agenda, I need
to know, I want to share withyou really briefly, here's who I
(42:02):
am, here's where I'm at, I'm ata career transition, I'm
exploring opportunities. AndJesse, I'm interested in careers
that might allow me to leveragemy writing skills and doing
different types of things. Iknow this is something that
you've done, I'd love to, ifyou're okay, I have a few
questions I want to ask youabout that. And then I have a
few questions. How didyou...What was your first job?
(42:23):
How did you get into this? Howdid you make that transition?
Different kinds of things. So itbecomes an opportunity for me to
learn from you. And then it'smostly me asking a few questions
of people. And I also keep itshort. There's a wonderful book,
by the way, and it is the biblefor networking in my mind, and
it's written by a couple peoplewho have worked in the search
(42:45):
firm kind of business, MarciaBallanger and Nathan Perez. And
the title of the book is The20-Minute Networking Meeting.
And this book is a how-tomeeting and how-to guide for
having networking meetings. Andif you go out onto Amazon, or
your local bookstore, whereverit is, they actually have
different editions. They haveone for executives who are in
(43:07):
transition, they have one forgraduates, new graduates who are
in transition, I think they evenhave one for veterans who are in
transition, trying to leveragetheir skills. And it is a how-to
step-by-step, down to spend thefirst two or three minutes doing
this in follow through. And withthe target being, this is a 20
to 30 minute meeting, this isnot an hour long meeting. You've
(43:28):
got to respect other people'stime. What is it you want to get
out of it? What is your ask? Andessentially, most of the time,
the ask at the end of one ofthese meetings are twofold. One
is, Who else should I be talkingto? So Jesse, who else do you
know, or might recommend thatyou think I might talk to you to
learn more and go deeper intothis? Or I've looked you up on
(43:49):
LinkedIn, I see you knowsomebody over at another company
that I'm interested in. Wouldyou be willing to make an
introduction for me? It'sleveraging the network to expand
your network. The other part ofit is, one of the things that
they highly recommend in thebook is there's, how do you kind
of...if people are willing tokind of pay it forward, how do
you pay back? So Jesse, what canI do for you? Is there anything
(44:11):
that I can do to help you? Isthere something that we've
talked about that you might beinterested in, maybe I
referenced an article I canshare with you, maybe it's
somebody I know that you'd liketo meet? I'd be happy to do
anything to kind of pay it backto you in terms of how can I
help be a resource for you? Allof that is outlined in that
book. I highly encourage peopleto buy it, probably 20 bucks or
(44:31):
so online. I don't even know.
But it's a great resource. Andit is a how-to book for
networking.
Jesse Butts (44:40):
Yeah. And I'll be sure to include some information
on that in the show notes. Howdo you find those people? I
mean, are you going on LinkedInand searching for those
companies and trying to findpeople who look like they have
jobs you might like? Are yousending an email out to the
world, sharing your story andthat you're looking for people
(45:02):
to talk to who might be in thesefields? What is that? I'm not
sure if it's quite the firststep. But what does that early
step look like in terms ofmechanics?
Paul Erdahl (45:13):
It's sort of like building a pyramid. Right at the
bottom, you're kind of reachingout to almost anybody. And if
you've got friends, you've gotfamily, people through social
circles, one sort or another.
Maybe there's people, you said,Wow, I haven't followed up with
them in a long time. Maybethat's a chance to start. And
those may be a little bit morethan networking, I realize. But
(45:36):
if you can leverage part ofthose meetings, for networking
purposes, to say, I'm trying tolearn more about this. And, Who
do you know in this environment?
Do you know anybody who doesthese kinds of things? And is
there anybody you might suggest?
And I certainly know havingyears ago, having gone through
this process myself, sometimesyou meet people that are really
of no help whatsoever. But then,you know, it's the time...I
(45:57):
remember I was busy, had a wholebunch of meetings, and I was
pulling up at a Starbucks herein Minneapolis. I'm literally
sitting in the car, trying toremember who it was I was even
going to go in and meet with,right? Couldn't remember this
woman's name. So I'm looking herup on my phone, finally find it,
I walk in, I find her...She wasone of the most help, to my
(46:18):
surprise, one of the mosthelpful people I'd ever met. And
I didn't know her. But I thinkthe discovery is most people are
happy to try to help if theycan, and happy to help provide
information. People like to talkabout their own careers, if
their careers are relevant. Andas long as you can engage in the
dialogue and the discussion tokind of dig deeper and ask
(46:40):
questions, it's an opportunityfor you to continue to move
forward in terms of expandingthings, and the people you know.
Jesse Butts (46:51):
I've had similar experience as well, where I
think so many of us assume thatit's such a burden that we're
asking people, or annoyance. Weall have been there, we've all
needed to find a job, we've allneeded to get out of a job. We
get that networking is how youdo that. So I completely agree.
When someone asks for a littlebit of my time because they're
(47:13):
interested in something I do, orI know somebody, those are some
of the things that I'll bendover backwards to find a time to
meet. I personally just enjoyit. But I know how that one
introduction can lead to a wholenew career, because it's
happened to me. And I think,those of us who've been in that
(47:34):
situation, very earnestly wantto pay that forward.
Paul Erdahl (47:38):
Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more Jesse. And
just a follow up, I mentionedit's kind of like building a
pyramid. But typically, whathappens is you start the
networking process is, you'llget more and more focused as you
learn more and you start talkingto people. And you start to zoom
in, which is really the nextpart of this whole process, is
(47:58):
figuring out Well, what, andagain, what's my marketing
strategy here? Right? And whatare the areas that I want to
really kind of zoom in on. Andjust to kind of give you
some...if you think about this,if you're creating a matrix on a
piece of paper, Do I want towork in a big business? Do I
want to work in a smallbusiness? Do I want to work in a
(48:19):
nonprofit? Do I want to work inan academic environment of some
sort? Do I want to work on myown? Do I want to work for a
consulting firm? What does thatall look like? And then it
starts to move towards sort of,What product or service do I
want to be associated with? I'veshared with many people, I mean,
this is also about sort ofcoming out of that self
(48:40):
discovery process. There's adifferent type of person who
wants to go work at the RitzCarlton than wants to go and
work at IKEA. And it's adifferent kind of customer
service. It's a different kindof interaction. I worked at a
company here in Minneapolis,Medtronic, which is medical
technology company. I walkedinto Medtronic, and it was like
coming home to a place I'd neverbeen before. It was really that
(49:03):
kind of experience where I lovedit. I loved the people I was
with, I loved the work that theywere doing, I loved the products
they were selling. All thosekinds of things, in contrast to
having worked at anotherorganization prior to Medtronic,
where it was an agriculturalfirm. And I couldn't stand it.
All due respect to those inagricultural fields. I just got
(49:26):
bored silly sitting in meetingstalking about, you know, soy
beans and molasses and otheragricultural products. And I
should have learned. I did findmy ninth grade career interest
inventory, and the very lowestscore on my entire interest
inventory was agriculture. Andthat was something, was an Aha
Moment for me that it'simportant to be in the right
(49:48):
place, doing the right things. Imay have been doing the right HR
kind of skills and things, butit was not in an environment
that was aligned with me. So Ithink it's that marketing
strategy becomes a, Okay, let menarrow down the field I want to
work in. I want to work inretail. Is that target? Is it
Best Buy? Is it Nordstroms? Isit, you know, what type of an
(50:09):
organization is that? Or I wantto work in technology. Is it
Apple? Is it Google? Is itVerizon telephones? What is it?
And so how do I start to narrowthat down, because that's the
process. Now one of the things,if you haven't already gathered,
this is not end to end...this isnot a quick process. And with
most of the executives andleaders and people that I've
(50:31):
worked with, who are giving thissort of their full attention,
this can be easily six months toa 12 month kind of process, to
kind of go through the selfdiscovery, to begin to think
about how I want to framemyself, to begin to think about
those networking contacts I wantto leverage, to think about how
do I narrow my marketingchannels in terms of what kind
(50:54):
of organizations do I want tofocus on, and then you get to
the end where you're actuallygoing in and trying to break in
and interview and connect withpeople.
Jesse Butts (51:03):
Yeah, and that's something...we've gone over a
ton of useful, great informationhere. We've really gotten a
great sense of self discovery,we've gotten incredible insights
into how to craft our story, andhow to think about what are
those company sizes, thosesectors, industry sectors, and
(51:24):
we now have networks. So let'ssay that we've gone through
that, and we had a greatnetworking experience, and it
led to an interview. So we're inthe interview, How do you
recommend that people in thissituation talk about, or maybe
not talk about, that academicexperience, especially if they
don't have other more, quoteunquote, relevant experience?
(51:48):
How do you suggest listenershandle those interviews? If the
interviewer, the hiring manager,does start grilling you about,
How does this PhD relate? Or,what have you done since
workwise? Since undergrad?
Things like that?
Paul Erdahl (52:06):
Yeah, I think the key answer is you need to be
honest with people. Right? Soit's not like I can make up a
career I haven't had. But Ithink that the challenge is you
just described as, Well, why isyour background relevant to me?
Jesse Butts (52:20):
Exactly.
Paul Erdahl (52:21):
If you take the time and you're working on your
story, Why is it relevant toyou? What what were the skills
and the abilities and thingsthat you you bring to the table
that will make you a valuableasset to whatever the job is
that you're applying for? Now,maybe these are a few kind of
tactical things just to thinkabout. It's important to
(52:43):
realize, if, depending on whatyour job title was, you're
probably, if you're making acareer switch from academia, or
into a new kind of career,you're probably going to start
as an individual contributor.
Unless you've had managementexperience, which would be a
huge asset, to kind of thinkabout, Well, I've managed
people, I know how to get workdone through others, I know how
(53:03):
to make those things happen. Ifyou're coming in, what you
really need to sell is a conceptthat's out there, and you can
Google this, around learningagility. And I think even today,
when I work on successionplanning in organizations, one
of the things we look at is, wecertainly look at past
(53:23):
performance, what kinds ofthings that people done, how
have they done, what has therebeen their level of performance
and success? But the otherelement we look at as we think
about people is, What potentialdo they have to step up to the
next level role in anorganization? And similarly, if
you're coming in with a uniquebackground into a role, you
(53:44):
really have to sell yourpotential, because you're really
most likely stepping in a jobyou've never done before. The
question is, are you agileenough? Are you capable enough?
Are you dedicated enough tolearn new ways of thinking, new
ways of doing things? And haveyou demonstrated that in the
past, likely you have, if you'vegone from one situation to
(54:07):
another someplace, you've takenon a role or responsibility,
you've done volunteer work,doing something, you've led a
committee, you've been involvedas a volunteer someplace,
whatever it might be. How haveyou demonstrated your ability to
continually learn and step intosituations that are new and
different? And how canyou...that's your opportunity,
(54:29):
rather, for you to reallyconvince somebody is, My
background and experience isrelevant because it's based on
continual learning and continualgrowth. And that's what I'm
going to do here. I can come in,I may not know the specifics of
this job, but I'm pretty surethat in the next three to six
months, I can probably learn 99%of what I need to know to do
(54:50):
this job. And with that, I bringunique background, unique
perspectives, different ways ofthinking than people out of more
traditional paths might have.
Jesse Butts (55:02):
So I just want to really emphasize that point.
That what you say learn issomething you will absolutely
have to learn. And you might notget a lot of time to do it on
the job. That might be somethingthat needs to be done outside of
working hours, initially, atleast. But I think that's just a
(55:22):
reality that we need to acceptwhen we're really shooting for
something that we can't walk inday one and nail.
Paul Erdahl (55:31):
Absolutely. And I think, Jesse, one of the things
we haven't touched on is, thereare some jobs that require
certain levels of education ortraining. If you're going to try
to apply for a job as a financeperson, you better have some
background in finance, youbetter know and understand
accounting principles, and youbetter know and understand kind
(55:51):
of the basics and fundamentalsaround how all of that is done.
Now, you can probably learn thatthrough online courses and
different types of things. Butyou're going to have to be able
to talk to that. In anothersituation, if you're applying
for an HR job, what are kind ofthe...do your research, do your
homework, find out what are thecore elements of HR jobs.
(56:14):
Hopefully by this time, you'venetworked with a lot of HR
people, and you've talked tothem to understand what it is
that they do. And are theyinvolved in compensation and
benefits? Are they involved inin employee relations work? Are
they involved in talentdevelopment work? What types of
things are out there? So you canat least speak to kind of that
area, and then come on in andlearn how you're going to do
(56:38):
that. Likewise, I'll keep goingwith the HR one. I mean, there's
an association out there calledSHRM, Society for HR Management,
I think, which is one thatanybody, I think, could join.
And they offer training andvarious certifications and
things in HR. I don't think itrequires any particular
background prior to beinginvolved in that. But that, that
(57:01):
might be a route, if you'rereally committed to doing
something like that. I'mguessing there are similar
things, if you wanted to go intoit, if you wanted to go into
finance, if you wanted to gointo other professional careers
along those lines. So that'simportant. I mean, in some ways,
in other jobs, of course, if youwant to be a doctor, you want to
be a lawyer, you want to be someother types of jobs, a nurse or
(57:22):
something, you obviously have togo back and get the appropriate
training.
Jesse Butts (57:26):
Yeah, I want to bring up too that, if you're a
listener who feels like you'rein the camp of, I really just
want something better for nineto five so that I can do my
passion outside of work and onweekends, and the thought of
having to learn these skills anddo all this to lead up to a job,
it sounds too much. Obviously,Paul and I don't have the answer
(57:50):
for you, that's an individualassessment. One way I like to
think about this is, well, maybethe six months to a year that
you spend learning the skill andfinding the job, will that
enable you to spend more time onyour passion? Versus if you
continued where you are rightnow, it's five years later,
(58:13):
which path has allowed you to domore , consistently isn't quite
the right word, but five yearsfrom now, which approach to work
has allowed you to focus more onyour passion in the long run?
Paul Erdahl (58:30):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think, just to
share, I've got a very closefriend who is a musician. He and
his wife are both musicians. Andas you might imagine, that has
been a tough road, especiallythe last year or two. And he
does teaching, and I think theyboth teach. But that is
(58:53):
not...It's not as lucrative asthey want it to be. And their
performance schedule hascertainly been cut back. So in
terms of being involved inorchestras and different things,
it just hasn't been happening asmuch. So I know he's been
working at a Starbucks. And he'sbeen, I don't know what his
particular role is there. But Iknow he does that. I believe he
(59:15):
enjoys it. I think he's good atit. But that is not sort of his
heart and soul is being abarista or a manager at a
Starbucks. So that is where you,you know, you create this sort
of portfolio career where youhave these different parts in
terms of, I'm able to do somethings that I'm doing while I'm
doing other things. I haveanother writer friend, he has
(59:37):
done most of his work helpingpeople write their
dissertations, and just learningthe style around dissertations
and how do you help people thatneed those writing skills from
him. I've also connected, by theway, through my coaching work
that I'm doing with a C suiteexecutive who's a bad writer,
and have connected with anotherwriter to potentially be a
(01:00:01):
coach. A writing coach for asenior executive. And so you
start to realize where do thesethings kind of fit in there.
There are niches for some ofthese. If you're a history
major, I'm not sure that Frenchhistory is where that's going to
fit, but there might be a place,some place, or there might be a
connection through internationalorganizations where they need
somebody need somebody who'sbilingual, somebody who speaks
(01:00:22):
French, somebody who has abackground and knowledge about
French culture, there arecertainly other kinds of areas.
So I think that's where you haveto think holistically. And I'll
be honest with you, I think,especially if there are people
who are coming out of careers inacademia, they tend to be very,
(01:00:42):
very narrow, kind of focused, interms of how they think about
things. Now, I probably angeringa few people here. But if your
focus has been, I'm a professorof psychology, or math, or
history, or whatever it mightbe, it's about, How do I start
to think about theadministrative aspects of the
(01:01:02):
college or university? How do Istart to think about the broader
kind of perspectives of things?
People need to be connectingdots at a much wider range than
saying, I'm just gonna stay inmy lane. You've got to get out
of your lane and start to thinkabout, What do I bring to other
areas? What can I bring as partof that value proposition where
(01:01:23):
I can create value and make adifference in different types of
spaces? And I think most peoplewill be surprised to discover
there's opportunities out there.
Jesse Butts (01:01:34):
Yeah, the port portfolio career is an
interesting concept. I havenever heard a term for that. And
one thing I just want toclarify, the question I posed
was a bit leading. I didn't meanit to be. I mean, for example,
if you have a passion that has alimited shelf life, and I'm
thinking, for example, if you'rea ballet dancer, and it's the
(01:01:55):
question of, Do I spend a yearnow focusing on this? It might
that answer could very well beabsolutely not. I need to keep
my prime dancing years as freefor dancing as possible. And
utmost respect for that. So Ijust wanted to clarify that I
wasn't trying to stop anybody inthose type of situations by any
means.
Paul Erdahl (01:02:14):
Right. I couldn't agree more. And I think that
that's key. You're, of course,bringing up some of the most
challenging, unique jobs outthere, Jesse. So...
Jesse Butts (01:02:23):
We don't call it The Work Seminar for nothing
here.
Paul Erdahl (01:02:25):
Yeah. So you know, I just want to...and kind of my
overall perspective is it doestake some discovery, it does
kind of take peeling back theonion a little bit to find out,
Where is that other space that Ican play in? And if you can play
in the one that you're in, andyou really love it, stay there.
Enjoy it as long as you possiblycan. But when that time comes,
(01:02:49):
and when you need to startthinking about different kinds
of things, be adaptable. Bethinking about, How can I can I
make that kind of a shift? WhenI went out on my own, now seven
years ago, I had one vision ofwhat I was...kind of the
services and what was theconsulting space I wanted to
play in. And when I look at whatI'm doing today, it's nothing
(01:03:09):
related to what I thought I wasgoing to be doing even seven
years ago. So it is thatcontinual learning process. It's
that openness to newexperiences, and new ideas, and
openness to thinking out of thebox and thinking more broadly,
in terms of How, what can I dowith this knowledge, these
skills, these interests, thesevalues that I have?
Jesse Butts (01:03:31):
Yeah, and I think that's an important point in the
sense that what I land as a jobafter this, let's call it six
months of work, doesn't have tobe and might not, and very
likely will not be, the lifelongwork. What I thought was really
important maybe five years afterundergrad for work, I found
(01:03:55):
immensely boring 10 years afterundergrad.
Paul Erdahl (01:03:59):
Exactly.
Jesse Butts (01:04:00):
And I've also had the experience too where I've
thought taking on moreresponsibility would be
fulfilling. And some of itabsolutely was, but some of that
I absolutely had to roll back.
It just wasn't right for me.
This has been great, Paul. We'vegone over so much information.
For people, we'll have things inthe show notes. If someone is
(01:04:21):
interested in chatting with youor possibly working with you,
what is the best way for them tocontact you?
Paul Erdahl (01:04:26):
Well, I would point people toward my website, my
organization, my firm that I runis called Global Talent
Strategies. And it's out atwww.GlobalTalentStrategies.com.
And that has all my contactinformation out there as well as
additional information aboutsome of the areas that I focus
on.
Jesse Butts (01:04:45):
Great. Well, thank you for joining us, Paul. We
appreciate it.
Paul Erdahl (01:04:48):
Thank you, Jesse.
This has been great, and I wisheverybody who's listening, I
hope you can find that pathforward that works for you.
Jesse Butts (01:04:59):
Thanks for listening to this episode of The
Work Seminar. If you like whatyou've heard, please take a
minute to rate the show on yourfavorite podcast app. Know
someone who'd be a great WorkSeminar guest? Or have a
suggestion or two for the show?
You can reach me atJesse@TheWorkSeminar.com, or
@TheWorkSeminar on social. Andspecial thanks, as always, to
Jon Camp for the music andIsabel Patino for the cover art
(01:05:20):
and design. Until next time,never cease from exploration.
Welcome to The Work Seminar, the podcast for people
with liberal arts advanceddegrees considering work outside
their fields of study.
(00:24):
Hi, everyone, thanks for joiningus. I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Welcome to another episode ofThe Work Seminar. Today we're
doing things a littledifferently. We have a special
episode with Paul Erdahl, who'san executive coach and career
coach. Rather than an episodefocused on somebody's story from
grad school to their currentwork, Paul has been gracious
(00:47):
enough to join us to share someadvice and strategies for people
like us with liberal artsadvanced degree, who are looking
for work they'll enjoy in fieldsthat might not have direct or
arguably even tangentialexperience in. So Paul, thank
you. Thank you for joining us.
Paul Erdahl (01:03):
Thank you, Jesse.
It's great to be here.
Jesse Butts (01:05):
Glad to have you.
And just to give our listeners alittle background, Paul, I know
that you earned your PhD incounseling psychology, and that
you you did work as a practicingpsychologist. And after a few
years of that, you made the leapinto human resources where you
worked as an HR executive at acouple of larger healthcare
companies, which is where,incidentally, Paul and I met. We
(01:28):
are former coworkers, and we'vestayed in touch for going on
close to 10 years now. And thenin 2004, you found it, you
founded, excuse me, your ownbusiness, where you've been
helping executives find work, aswell as improve their
performance at work.
Paul Erdahl (01:47):
Right. Since 2014.
Just to clarify.
Jesse Butts (01:50):
Oh, I'm sorry.
2014.
Paul Erdahl (01:52):
Yeah.
Jesse Butts (01:53):
Yeah, we would have been coworkers when I was in
college if that were 2004. Allright. Anything else about your
background before we get into ityou think our listeners should
know? Or should we just go aheadand get right started?
Paul Erdahl (02:05):
No, I do think...thank you, Jesse for
that overview. As you mentioned,I started with dreams of being a
career psychologist doingtherapy and working with people,
in particular people inhospital-based settings with
chronic disease or other typesof things, but then moved into
the HR space, and in particular,in the areas of organizational
(02:28):
development and leadershipdevelopment. And so that's what
I've been doing. And some of thethings we'll talk about today
are really based on working withpeople who have gone through
transition in their careers, andhow did they make that
transition? And what types ofthings that they need to reflect
on and think about? And how didthey make that happen?
Jesse Butts (02:46):
All right, perfect.
That sounds great. So as youalready know, our listeners have
advanced degrees in a liberalarts field. Let's just start off
with a hypothetical. So saysomebody with that
background...Maybe they've beenteaching or adjunct teaching, or
they've been working a varietyof different jobs to make ends
meet. And now they're ready fora change. Maybe they want more
(03:08):
stable income, maybe they wantbetter hours, maybe what they
thought they would love aftergrad school didn't quite pan
out. Overall, it's this feelingof being stuck. So when you're
sitting in a situation likethis, where you do feel stuck,
what do you recommend? Where dowe even begin with something
(03:30):
seemingly so large andoverwhelming to some?
Paul Erdahl (03:37):
Well, the way you've just outlined that it is
large, and it is overwhelming.
And I think for many people,that is the challenge that they
really face, is thinking about,What are the things that I'm
looking for? Am I looking for abetter salary? Am I looking for
a job that is just 40 hours aweek? Or do I really want to do
something that's new ordifferent? Maybe aligned with a
(03:59):
sense of purpose or passion thatI have about something? How do I
start to get into that kind ofan environment and be doing
something I find meaningful andsomething that's rewarding? You
know, the big question, Jesse,and the thing where I really
start with people, when I workwith them is to be thinking
about, let's start with, how doyou answer the question, What do
(04:22):
you want to do? And that'ssomething that many people
struggle with. Because theanswer is, I don't know what I
want to do. And I don't knowexactly how to get there from
here. And so part of thechallenges, and the opportunity,
is really to stop and say, Well,let's reflect on areas that
you've experienced throughoutyour life, whether it be through
your schooling, growing up, inyour career that you've had thus
(04:46):
far. What are those things thatyou really value? What are those
things you appreciate? Andreally starting with that
personal self exploration, toget a sense of, Okay, what's
going to be meaningful andrelevant? And what's most
important to me as I go forward?
Jesse Butts (05:03):
Can we pause there for a second?
Paul Erdahl (05:05):
Mmhmm.
Jesse Butts (05:06):
So a lot of our guests, they love being in
history class and spending timein the library. So they've
gotten, you know, that PhD inhistory, and they really thought
a tenure track position would bethat fit. And maybe it's because
of market reasons or otherfactors, that just isn't going
(05:27):
to be reality. So how, how doyou use this type of assessment,
these questions, to, for lack ofa better term, it probably isn't
the the one you use in yourfield, but to come up with a
plan B?
Paul Erdahl (05:39):
Right.
Jesse Butts (05:40):
You know, where were the first thing that you
really felt passionate about,for whatever reason, just isn't
something you can attain, or youfeel that the work to attain it
isn't worth it.
Paul Erdahl (05:52):
Right. And I think Jesse, and I can certainly
share, I started my career, mypassion, my desire, right out of
undergraduate, I wanted to be atherapist. That's what I wanted
to be. And I wanted to focus onworking with people, and I
wanted to be in those kinds ofenvironments. And I did that for
about 5, 6, 7, 8 years, I forgetexactly how long it was. But
(06:14):
after a time it was, we allmature, we all grow, we all
start to experience differentthings. We start to understand
some different things. And Ithink even if it's something,
and you're kind of describing adifferent scenario where that is
what I love to do but there'snothing there for me to or no
place for me to take that. Andso either one of those scenarios
(06:34):
really calls on us to stop andsay, Okay, how do I look at
myself? How do I look a littlebit at the world of work? How do
I start to think differentlyabout things? And where can I
take my skills? And how can Itransfer those into a different
situation and a differentsetting? And how do we think
about those...And I know, eveneven when I wanted to move out
(06:58):
of my career, my identity and myself image, and the way I
conceptualize things, was verymuch as a therapist and a
psychologist. And I didn't evenknow how to spell HR at that
point. And it was yet anopportunity for me to start to
think about how do I leveragethese skills in these abilities
(07:20):
in a different context? And Ithink whether you're a history
major, or an English major, oryou've been a philosopher or
whatever, how do you start tothink about, What are those
skills and capabilities that Ihave? And how can I step into a
different environment andleverage those to add value? And
to do something that I findthat's meaningful and relevant
(07:43):
for me?
Jesse Butts (07:45):
What are some of those questions or exercises
that you encourage people to runthrough to be able to ascertain
that about themselves?
Paul Erdahl (07:54):
Yeah, it's, it's something that I really asked
people to kind of really reflectbackwards, not just to, here's
what my degree is, and thereforethis is what I need to do. But
think think back even furtherinto your junior high, your high
school years. What were thosethings? And in college. What are
those things that you reallyenjoyed? What did you really
(08:15):
value? Where did you findyourself getting excited and
really enjoying a class? Or, oran experience that you had? It
might have been, if people had achance to study abroad or in
different contexts or differentcultures, What were those things
that they really enjoyed? Andwhat...really driving that down
to, What were you doing in thatsituation? And what was it about
(08:40):
that that you really foundvaluable? Was it something where
you were helping other people?
Was it something where you weredoing research and exploring and
trying to understand new ideas?
Was it something that you werejust engrossed in, in terms of
your own personal learning onthings? I know for me, I know,
as I think back, I can thinkabout all those science projects
(09:02):
I did in junior high, in highschool that I really loved
doing. And I shared with manypeople, I originally when I
started as an undergraduate,thought I was going to be a
biology major, until I tookcollege level biology. And it
was like the worst class I'dever taken in my life. And it
became sort of these momentswhere you say, That was really
(09:24):
good to a point. But what werethose moments where I really
started to understand and seewhere could I apply things
differently? And so from thebiology degree to a psychology
degree, it was transferring to,Well, I wanted something that
was much more people orientedthan working in a laboratory,
dissecting things or studyingthings. I needed that
(09:46):
affiliation with other people.
It's actually a value, somethingthat I bring to the to the
table. I value working and beingengaging with other people. And
so how do I start to bring thatthen and think about where can I
leverage those skill sets andcapabilities to engage in that
type of environment>
Jesse Butts (10:04):
Yeah, you bring up something really interesting,
and something I didn't consideruntil later than I wish, which
is the values. I think, inschool, we're so obsessed,
focused, you know, pick yourterm, with what we're studying,
we forget about the the worldoutside of that. When I started
(10:29):
in marketing, it was kind of afluke. I knew I just wanted to
do something with writing, whichI had trained in. And I knew, I
liked being creative. But itwasn't until I really figured
out that I like being creative,I like being strategic, I like
being curious. And those arevery valuable to me. And using
(10:49):
those to help a person or acompany really do their best
work for the audience they caremost about.
Paul Erdahl (10:58):
Right.
Jesse Butts (10:59):
That's when it all kind of made sense to me. And
once I had, and this issomething I've borrowed from a
book called Unique Ability. Butonce you...in my situation, what
they advocate is figuring outthe values that are important to
you, and what you really like todo, and when you can marry
those, it's not like this magicdream job will necessarily pop
(11:20):
up. But you'll be able to startframing things exactly in a way
where you can look at things alittle bit more like, or less
than, Oh, this is one line itemin the job description. But is
overall this something that fitsin with those values, married
(11:41):
with the things that I do welland enjoy doing?
Paul Erdahl (11:44):
Yeah, well, you have just framed it up
perfectly, Jesse, and I thinkyou've identified what are those
underlying, regardless of whatyou've studied, regardless of
what career you're in now, whatare those things? If you think
about classic career coachingkind of perspective, it's about
what are your values? What arethose things that are important
(12:05):
to you that you need to have inyour ideal job? What are those
things you're interested in? Andin terms of, and we can go into
this in terms of what type ofwork do you like to do, with
whether it's retail or researchor academic kind of
environments, How do you startto think about where do you like
to be? And then it's alsobringing not just your values
(12:29):
and your interests but yourskills and abilities to bear?
And what skills and abilitieshave you had? I know people that
a lot of people in academics arepeople who have developed very
interesting skills on the sidewhere they've been...they have
artistic skills or capabilitiesthat they've leveraged, or they
spend their summers when theyhave off doing construction work
(12:52):
or other types of things. Theystart to develop this portfolio
of skills that isn't necessarilytied directly to their career,
but they have all these skillsand abilities. And then lastly,
Is there any particularknowledge and expertise that you
bring to the table? Becauseexactly what you said is, How do
you bring all those thingstogether through a self
(13:14):
exploration sort of process tounderstand what those elements
of yourself are? And then how doyou start to go looking for
career opportunities that alignwith those?And it's one thing to
get a job, it's another thing tobe able to be doing what you
love and you're passionateabout. And there's a time and a
(13:35):
place for both of those. Sodon't get me wrong. I'm
certainly aware sometimes I justneed a job right now. But in the
long term, I'm hoping, certainlymy value is I hope people can be
doing work that they value, andthey feel rewarding, and they
feel passionate and have a senseof purpose about.
Jesse Butts (13:52):
Yeah, and I think for some of us, that differs.
Some may wholeheartedly seekwhat you're describing. Others
may be more in a spot where, Ireally, really confining it to
nine to five with decent incomeso that after work, I can get
back into the studio, or writeor paint or research or
(14:17):
whatever. They're not looking tosupplant that passion from what
they studied. They're lookingfor something to enable that.
But still, to your point, Imean, it's still important to
find jobs that will make thatnine to five something more than
simply bearable.
Paul Erdahl (14:37):
Well, and at the risk of being too optimistic, I
think there may be opportunitiesout there to be doing those
things that you love after work.
How do you start to findopportunities where you can do
at least some of that, or partof that, or be around other
people who are doing similartypes of things that you can do
in that space? I certainly knowand understand that. There are
(14:59):
times when a job is a means toan end, when it is something
that provides you with theincome, the benefits, whatever
it might be, and then yourpassion and purpose is outside
of work. But on the other sideis, Is there any chance you can
find that sense of passion andpurpose in your work? And is
that even, is that possible? So,to some of your listeners who
(15:22):
may be coming from a, I justwanted to be a professor, a
tenured professor someplaceteaching or doing something that
was aligned with sort of a nonprofessional career as we think
about in business types ofthings, but more of an academic
type of career. I certainly knowthere are a lot of people who
have come out of academicsettings that have amazing
(15:44):
skills, amazing knowledge,amazing experience, that if they
can translate it into a languageand into a value proposition, as
we say in business, where youcan say, Here's how I can bring
value, and I can bring and havean impact for business,
(16:06):
leveraging my skills. Thoseopportunities, I think they're
out there. They may be hard tofind, I'm not gonna, I'm not
gonna soft sell that too much.
But it may be hard to find, butI think it might be worth
looking for, depending on whatyour circumstances are. I think
there are times, and I know,I've kind of been through
(16:28):
different transitions and timesin my life, when I knew I took a
job that was a temporary job.
You know, it was good for me,met my basic needs that I needed
to have met. But it wasn'tsomething I wanted to be doing
long term. But if you can findthat opportunity, where you're
doing what you love, and you'repassionate about, even during
that 40 hour work week, everyweek, that's a huge opportunity.
Jesse Butts (16:52):
And before we we move on to the steps after you
do this self discovery, just onelast question about that
process. Is this something wherethis is...one evening, we just
open up a spiral notebook andjust start rattling through
these questions? Is this, I'msure it differs for a lot of
(17:14):
different people you work with,but how much time should we plan
on this initial step of reallycoming to terms and
understanding, outside of pureacademics, what we really value,
what we're good at, and whatwill be important to us in our
(17:35):
work?
Paul Erdahl (17:36):
Yeah, great question. I think it probably
takes more time than most peoplethink it does. And it is
something that, that thehomework assignment that I give
people, I actually have a listof about 15,20 questions that I
tell people, I just want you togo, I want you to put pen to
paper, I want you to write outyour answers to these questions.
(17:57):
And I want you to think aboutthings. So I have the list in
front of me where I ask people,you know, first question is...In
the past year, what have beenthose career conversations going
on in your head? What's thedialogue that you're having with
yourself? Get people to becomemore self aware of things. I ask
people to think about theircareer and what are those things
(18:18):
that that really regeneratethem. And what are those things
that just drain their energy?
What are those things that theymay have to do, or there may be
things that they sometimes getstuck doing, that just is not in
the ballpark that they want tobe in? I also ask people to
think about accomplishments thatthey've had over the years. I
asked people to think about,What are the five words that you
(18:40):
would use to describe yourself?
And when you're at your best,what are those five words that
you would use? And then howwould people, your friends, your
family, your colleagues, Whatare the five words you they
might use to describe you? Andthen I get into some of the
things we talked about, What areyour three to five core values
that you think really guide youin your life? Or, describe what
(19:04):
you're doing in your best jobever if you could design it. And
if you knew you couldn't fail,what would you be doing right
now? And really start to helppeople dig into and reflect on
and think about these questions.
And then, in my coachingpractice, what I will do is
we'll spend several hours justgoing through these questions to
understand what what's behindwhat people are thinking about.
(19:27):
And as an aside, there are sometools and other types of things
that might also help kind ofspark some thinking. And many
people have used things like aMyers Briggs, or their career
interest inventories, ordifferent things that are out
there. And there are some, andI'd be happy to share some that
are free online versions ofthings. But it's just a way to
(19:47):
help. To your point earlier,it's a framework. How do I start
to frame up who am I? What aremy values? What are my
interests? What do I care about?
And what are the environments orthe spaces or the things I want
to be doing, and the places Iwant to be in, what do they
begin to look like for me? Andif people have got that all in a
(20:11):
box, and they say, Well, it'sthe job I have. right now. We
really kind of have to breakthat box open a bit. And we
really have to start saying,Your world is too narrow. You
have to begin to think outsideof that box. Because there are
other places where you can doand leverage those same values
and skills and capabilities andinterests.
Jesse Butts (20:32):
And we'll definitely add in the show notes
some links or descriptions ofsome of those resources. Paul,
thank you for mentioning those.
It sounds like to whether you'retalking about outside the box, I
guess the way I think about itis an underlying value. You
know, and again, if someonesays, Well, I loved studying
medieval French history,something I know very little
(20:56):
about, and if there are anymedieval French history
listeners out there, I apologizeprofusely for using this as an
example. But to me, that'snot...that's an interest. It's
not a value. But if you digdeeper, it's something like, I
really love researching topicsthat have fallen to the wayside,
(21:16):
or that involve people. Once youcan kind of separate that
particular academic interest orjust general interest to what's
beneath the surface.
Paul Erdahl (21:32):
Yeah.
Jesse Butts (21:32):
You know, for me, I mean, I've really enjoyed
writing, and I always associatedthat largely with my identity.
And I do a little bit less nowas I've grown older, but, this
is very cliche, but a lot ofpeople might think, What is it
about writing? And for somepeople, that's, you know,
they're more in the editor role.
They love turning chaos intosomething usable. Or if they're
(21:54):
more on the writing side, andthey really love creative
writing, because they lovecreating stories or highlighting
other people's stories. Thoseare very broad, broadly
applicable, underlying values.
Paul Erdahl (22:13):
The thing I would add to that, though, Jesse, as
I'm listening to you, and I'llpick on you as the writer here
for a second...
Jesse Butts (22:19):
Please.
Paul Erdahl (22:20):
That as a writer, I mean, writing is a skill.
Writing is a capability that youhave, but the question is, How
do you leverage your writing toadd value? And so, and I know
from having worked with you inthe past, you're somebody who
can create a story that helpscommunicate effectively to
(22:40):
employees in an organization, tocustomers who might be
interested in products. You havethe ability to take the
information and eloquently kindof create an engaging,
interesting storyline that doesengage people in a process that
(23:00):
might be involving sellingsomething, or promoting
something or whatever it mightbe. That the writing is a means
to an end. And what you werejust describing is, at the end
of the day, you're not a writer.
People aren't going to hire youjust to write. They're going to
hire you because you cancommunicate and you can, you can
sell and you can inspire and youcan motivate and you can do all
(23:23):
those things through effectivewriting as a skill set that
many, many people don't have.
Jesse Butts (23:32):
Yeah, absolutely. I would add to that, you can find
work as a writer. But you're notgoing to, or you're very likely
not going to, move up in payscale and responsibility, if you
cling to that writer identity.
Paul Erdahl (23:49):
Right. So I'm curious, Jesse, I mean, you did
move up in an organization. Youwere there. And as you started
to think about be taking ongreater responsibility, starting
from that writing background, aspeople become...you think about
people in an organization thatbecome more and more senior
leaders, it's because they'reable to then use their knowledge
(24:11):
and their expertise to thinkmore broadly. To think about,
What are these messages that weneed to create? When I think
about coaching executives, it'sabout you have to motivate
people, you have to inspirepeople, you have to set
strategy, you have to setdirection, you have to have a
vision or mission, all thosetypes of things at every step
along the way. It requires moreand more complex and broad
(24:38):
thinking about what are themessages that we want to
communicate. And so likewise,your friend with a, I forget
what you described it as, theFrench history major who has a
certain background andknowledge. Well, it might be a
narrow focus in terms ofknowledge, but what it tells me
(25:00):
is, This is somebody who knowshow to think. This is somebody
who knows how to conceptualize,knows how do we learn from
history? What are the lessonsfrom those experiences? What are
the things that ... How do webegin to think about why is that
relevant today? And how do Ithink about where would there be
(25:21):
similar types of things? It maynot be about French history, but
where are there similaropportunities to leverage my
interest in learning and tellingstories and communicating to
others? And how can I do that?
Jesse Butts (25:36):
Just to kind of reground ourselves in, not in
reality, but in the process abit. So let's say, let's assume
that we've done the homework. Wehave this really good sense of
our values, the work we do, whyit why it matters, what type of
value we can add to a company.
From there, what do yourecommend as steps to figure out
(26:01):
what are jobs that align tothis? Or maybe maybe a different
way to approach that is, How doI need to view things to see if
this is a good fit? You know,maybe it's not so much about,
Here are three or four jobtitles, as it is, Here are three
(26:23):
or four key things I want to seefrom an employer. Can you give
us a little advice in thatarena?
Paul Erdahl (26:34):
Yeah. And just to even back up from that discovery
process, those conversations,starting to think about what are
the transferable skills thatpeople have, to start to think
out of the box and start tobring people into thinking
about, Well, where might theseskills be applicable? The first
thing that I really work on, orthe second thing after we've
(26:56):
done the exploration, is tofocus on how are you going to
articulate that. And the analogythat I always use is, if you're
at a party, if you're out withfriends, or you're doing it not
in the middle of COVID, if youhave a chance to get out with
friends and you're talking topeople, and inevitably in the
conversation, you know, thequestion comes up, Well, tell me
(27:19):
about yourself? So you'remeeting new people, you're
connecting with new people, andthe question is, How do you
answer that? And it's easy forme to say, Well, for me, I grew
up in Minnesota, I come from afamily of five, I do this,
here's what I'm interested in.
But none of that is terriblyhelpful if I'm looking to change
careers. So what I encouragepeople is to, every time
(27:42):
somebody asks you a questionlike that, so tell me about
yourself, that is a careeropportunity for you to tell your
personal story. In myvernacular, it's, What's your
personal brand? What is it thatyou want to say about yourself?
And how does that help people tounderstand who you are, and how
you add value, and can add valuein different kinds of work
(28:04):
environments, because thatbecomes the essence of that.
That story, which I encouragepeople, by the way, speaking to
a writer, is 250 words or less.
So it's very short. Probably ahalf a page if you type it up.
And it is really focused on kindof describing here's who I am.
And so it may take on, if you'vealready got a career and you're
(28:27):
really focused on kind ofcontinuing in that, I might say,
Well, I'm an HR executive, and Iwant to do...with a background
in X, Y, or Z. But if I'm tryingto make a change from what I've
been doing to doing somethingelse, I need to start talking
about what are the skill setsthat I bring forward. I'll share
a story. I worked with a youngwoman who is a cognitive
(28:50):
psychologist, and she had spenther early career teaching. And
she was teaching and actuallyhad a job in a business school
where she was teachingstatistics and some research
kind of things, methodology. Andshe really wanted out of that.
And so the question was, Well,how do you start to think about
how do you tell your story? Andwho are you telling that story
(29:13):
to? After crafting that 250words, she had a story that
said, Here's who I amprofessionally, how she defined
herself. That's kind of thefirst paragraph. The second
paragraph of that story is,Here's what I'm known for. And
that might my ability to workeffectively with others. I
collaborate with others. I'mknown for my my critical
(29:35):
thinking skills or my problemsolving skills, whatever it
might be. Those are all skillsanybody in any field might have.
But how do you articulate thoseto describe, Here's what I do.
And then the third paragraph ofthat is really, What am I like
to add as an employee? You know,that I work hard, I'm a great
team member, or I'm a leader, orI'm a manager, or whatever the
(29:58):
situation might be. How do I getalong with and work with other
people? And then the last shortparagraph is, I'm interested in
exploring opportunities in, inher case, it was in Minneapolis
here, it was the medicaltechnology field. And so that
she kind of narrowed in andsaid, I want to look at jobs in
medical technology, which iswhere she ended up and landed.
Jesse Butts (30:22):
I want to make sure that, you know, for the
listeners, that I have thisclarified. So rather than going
for, Okay, I have my values andall this self discovery, let's
look at job titles. It's inbetween then, it's finding the
story, or sorry, crafting yourstory. And from there, it might
(30:46):
not be that finding a certainjob title is important to you.
You might not be like, Oh, thiscareer option really sounds
fascinating. It might be thisindustry, this type of
institution, this ability to beable to work from home
permanently. So are you, and Idon't mean to put words in your
(31:09):
mouth, but am I getting thatright? Should we be a little
less focused on the job that wemight find on LinkedIn versus
these other factors that you'vejust mentioned?
Paul Erdahl (31:22):
Yeah. And you're asking great questions. And what
I really...it's all about thestory. And then it's all about
talking to people. And I knowthere's tons of jobs out there.
And I just, you know, as I'm inthe news this week, a third of
people under 40 years old arelooking at new career
opportunities. Just saw that inthe Washington Post. And there,
(31:45):
there's a lot of churn out therein terms of careers and talent
right now. The thing where itstarts is that story is your
guide. Doesn't mean I knowexactly what job I want. But
it's my way of saying, Here'sthe space I want to play in. And
here's what I can bring to thatspace to add value. And that's
what's important to me. Now, thesteps in this, just to kind of
(32:09):
put this all in context is...soyou've done the self discovery,
now you've been able toarticulate your story, and
you've been able to get that in250 words or less. The next part
of this process is really thenetworking that needs to happen.
That cognitive psychologist Imentioned to you was quite an
introvert, and one of her firstquestions to me was, I'm not
(32:29):
going to have to network, am I?
And my response was, Yes, youneed to learn how to network,
and learning how to network isabsolutely critical. Because I
think there is a statistic, 65%of jobs don't come from just
applying online, but ratherthrough your connections,
through meeting people, gettingin front of people, finding out
that if I tell my story to myneighbor, my neighbor knows
(32:51):
somebody else that I should talkto, that be exactly the right
person. And I share with peoplethat networking, the goal of
networking is not necessarily toget a job. The goal of
networking is to expand yournetwork. And so that people know
who you are, they know whatmatters to you, they know what
you want to do. And because, Ithink Arnold Palmer once said,
(33:14):
The more I practice, the luckierI get. And at some point, you're
looking for those luckopportunities where you will
bump into the situation whereyou will find the job.
Jesse Butts (33:28):
You brought up something that is so divergent
from a lot of...maybe it's noteven advice, but just the M.O.
that we have. You think, Oh, myjob sucks, I need to look for a
new one. So that means I need toupdate my resume and I need to
spend every night looking forand applying for jobs. You're
saying that is the wrong way togo about it. You need to do the
(33:52):
self discovery, you need to comeup with your story. And then you
need to network. That the goingonline and finding jobs, that is
farther down the road, if atall, because that networking
might actually lead to the job.
Paul Erdahl (34:09):
Yeah, I'm hoping that it will. In most
situations, that's how peoplewill find jobs. And in fact, in
this day and age, if you're justapplying online, there may not
even be a person at the otherend of the system looking at
your resume. Resumes these daysgo into an applicant tracking
system. And what happens is,you're up against sort of the
(34:32):
logic of the system that'slooking at if-then equations on
things. And yes, you've got tohave all your right keywords in
there and you've got to havethose kinds of things. But if,
especially if, you're looking tomake a transition from one sort
of area of your career intosomething new, chances are
(34:53):
you're not going to be thesquare peg they're looking to
put in a square hole. They'regoing to be looking for somebody
who has the background who'sdone this before. Who has
experience doing this. And if wecan find somebody like that,
we're gonna put them in. Andyour resume may not even get
seen by anybody if nobody callsattention to it. So my
(35:15):
encouragement to people is youwant, if there's a job or you
hear about something, Iencourage you to try to network
your way in to talk to somebodyabout it before you even apply.
So that you can you can say,have somebody say, Okay, I know
who you are. Or even if it'ssomething, Jesse, if you applied
for a job at a company, and Ihappen to know, maybe I know one
(35:37):
person there, I can at leastdrop a note to that person and
say, Hi, I just want to let youknow that Jesse is a good...I've
known Jesse for years, I've seenhim, I've worked with him, he is
somebody that deserves yourattention in the selection
process. All I can do, and ifyou're not networking with the
person who's actually hiring forthe job, is to ask somebody to
(36:01):
bring attention to yourapplication or your interest in
the role.
Jesse Butts (36:09):
And I think there's something, there's a lot of
important things here. One thingis we see on the news so much
about, or maybe just the thenews that I'm reading, it's
probably not on the front page.
But over the last year inparticular, companies are making
big strides, some making realprogress, some doing lip
(36:33):
service, to DEI, which isDiversity, Equity, and
Inclusion. So things like, youknow, this should theoretically
curb employers for looking forpeople that fit their cognitive
biases. That, This jobrequires...because people who
(36:53):
have done well in this job havethis degree, or they have this
many years of experience, or allof these things. In theory, we
should see that eroding. Butobviously, there's reality. And
rather than waiting out forthose applicant tracking systems
to be perfected, and for thehuman resources departments, and
(37:15):
even more so the hiringmanagers, to understand the
flaws in some of theseapproaches, we need to take that
step now, or else we'll bewaiting for a long time.
Paul Erdahl (37:27):
Right. And that's it. At the end of the day, this
is all about interpersonaldynamics. It's all about
connecting with people, it's allabout making sure that people
know about you and understandyour story. So if you are coming
from a non-traditionalbackground, you have to be able
(37:49):
to let somebody know why you'rethe right person for that job.
Because you have the interest,because you have the skills,
because you can learn new thingsquickly and readily. Those are
all areas that are criticallyimportant for somebody who's on
the other end, a hiring manager.
First of all, the vast majorityof hiring managers don't do a
lot of hiring. It's notsomething that they're doing
(38:11):
every day unless they're in ahigh turnover kind of business
of some sort. But this issomething they do occasionally.
So you've got an HR person who'sbringing people in, and all of a
sudden, they have three or fourpeople they're interviewing.
It's a process, and you have tostand out. And you have to be
able to talk about why you'rethe right person for the job.
Even though you may not have theideal background for the
(38:33):
position. I think I shared withyou Jesse, in an earlier
conversation, but when I gotmy...when I left the hospital
setting that I was workingin...so I started working in a
hospital here in Minneapolis.
And I did do some work withinthat group in their HR group and
function. But my next job wasworking for what is now US Bank.
(38:54):
So I went from a hospital,traditional healthcare
environment into banking, whichI knew nothing about. And I was
fortunate that the woman whohired me, the one who is my
boss, somebody I still keep intouch with today, she saw
something in me. And aconversation that we had
triggered her to be thinkingabout, You can bring different
(39:17):
perspectives to the table. Youcan bring new ideas, you can
think differently than the otherpeople who all went to the same
school and got the same degreeand got the same training or
certification. Now I've gotsomebody who's coming in to
bring some different ways oflooking at things. She valued
that and she brought me in, andthat really took my career for
(39:41):
the next 20 years on acompletely different direction.
And it was because of thatconnection with her that that
was able to happen. And so dumbluck. I don't know what it was,
how we got connected on things,but that was the opportunity
that really changed the courseof my career. And so you got to
(40:05):
bump into those somehow.
Jesse Butts (40:07):
It's, and to put this in a business parlance, how
do you scale dumb luck? It's aninteresting question. But
seriously, if we could go backto networking...
Paul Erdahl (40:19):
Yeah.
Jesse Butts (40:20):
...mechanics for a bit. You know, we all have this
perception of, and I don't wantto spend too much time on that,
because there's so much, there'sso many resources out there with
with a quick Google search...Butwe have this idea of networking
being this sleaz mixer at theairport Ramada Inn, you know,
(40:41):
with a bunch of insurancesalespeople or...no, no
disrespect to insurancesalespeople, you provide a great
service. But how do we actuallystart networking? What do we do?
I mean, does it have to be thisseemingly awful thing that we
have built up in our heads?
Paul Erdahl (41:00):
Well, and I've certainly I've had those
meetings at the Ramada Inn. AndI know what those can be like. I
think that the way, the way Ikind of tell people is...and
again, I see networking as partof an exploratory process. If
you show up and you say, Hi, I'mlooking for a job doing X, Y, or
(41:20):
Z, most people will give you adumb stare and say, Well, I
don't have a job doing that. SoI can't help you. And so that's
the wrong approach. The approachthat I really encourage people
to think about is, this is alearning experience. I'm trying
to network with people who arein the areas that I might be
(41:41):
interested. Maybe they're inareas I'm not interested in, it
just kind of confirms that. ButI need to approach those as,
first of all, it's my meeting. Icalled it. If I got somebody, I
found them on LinkedIn, orsomebody introduced me, it's my
meeting. I need to show up, Ineed to have an agenda, I need
to know, I want to share withyou really briefly, here's who I
(42:02):
am, here's where I'm at, I'm ata career transition, I'm
exploring opportunities. AndJesse, I'm interested in careers
that might allow me to leveragemy writing skills and doing
different types of things. Iknow this is something that
you've done, I'd love to, ifyou're okay, I have a few
questions I want to ask youabout that. And then I have a
few questions. How didyou...What was your first job?
(42:23):
How did you get into this? Howdid you make that transition?
Different kinds of things. So itbecomes an opportunity for me to
learn from you. And then it'smostly me asking a few questions
of people. And I also keep itshort. There's a wonderful book,
by the way, and it is the biblefor networking in my mind, and
it's written by a couple peoplewho have worked in the search
(42:45):
firm kind of business, MarciaBallanger and Nathan Perez. And
the title of the book is The20-Minute Networking Meeting.
And this book is a how-tomeeting and how-to guide for
having networking meetings. Andif you go out onto Amazon, or
your local bookstore, whereverit is, they actually have
different editions. They haveone for executives who are in
(43:07):
transition, they have one forgraduates, new graduates who are
in transition, I think they evenhave one for veterans who are in
transition, trying to leveragetheir skills. And it is a how-to
step-by-step, down to spend thefirst two or three minutes doing
this in follow through. And withthe target being, this is a 20
to 30 minute meeting, this isnot an hour long meeting. You've
(43:28):
got to respect other people'stime. What is it you want to get
out of it? What is your ask? Andessentially, most of the time,
the ask at the end of one ofthese meetings are twofold. One
is, Who else should I be talkingto? So Jesse, who else do you
know, or might recommend thatyou think I might talk to you to
learn more and go deeper intothis? Or I've looked you up on
(43:49):
LinkedIn, I see you knowsomebody over at another company
that I'm interested in. Wouldyou be willing to make an
introduction for me? It'sleveraging the network to expand
your network. The other part ofit is, one of the things that
they highly recommend in thebook is there's, how do you kind
of...if people are willing tokind of pay it forward, how do
you pay back? So Jesse, what canI do for you? Is there anything
(44:11):
that I can do to help you? Isthere something that we've
talked about that you might beinterested in, maybe I
referenced an article I canshare with you, maybe it's
somebody I know that you'd liketo meet? I'd be happy to do
anything to kind of pay it backto you in terms of how can I
help be a resource for you? Allof that is outlined in that
book. I highly encourage peopleto buy it, probably 20 bucks or
(44:31):
so online. I don't even know.
But it's a great resource. Andit is a how-to book for
networking.
Jesse Butts (44:40):
Yeah. And I'll be sure to include some information
on that in the show notes. Howdo you find those people? I
mean, are you going on LinkedInand searching for those
companies and trying to findpeople who look like they have
jobs you might like? Are yousending an email out to the
world, sharing your story andthat you're looking for people
(45:02):
to talk to who might be in thesefields? What is that? I'm not
sure if it's quite the firststep. But what does that early
step look like in terms ofmechanics?
Paul Erdahl (45:13):
It's sort of like building a pyramid. Right at the
bottom, you're kind of reachingout to almost anybody. And if
you've got friends, you've gotfamily, people through social
circles, one sort or another.
Maybe there's people, you said,Wow, I haven't followed up with
them in a long time. Maybethat's a chance to start. And
those may be a little bit morethan networking, I realize. But
(45:36):
if you can leverage part ofthose meetings, for networking
purposes, to say, I'm trying tolearn more about this. And, Who
do you know in this environment?
Do you know anybody who doesthese kinds of things? And is
there anybody you might suggest?
And I certainly know havingyears ago, having gone through
this process myself, sometimesyou meet people that are really
of no help whatsoever. But then,you know, it's the time...I
(45:57):
remember I was busy, had a wholebunch of meetings, and I was
pulling up at a Starbucks herein Minneapolis. I'm literally
sitting in the car, trying toremember who it was I was even
going to go in and meet with,right? Couldn't remember this
woman's name. So I'm looking herup on my phone, finally find it,
I walk in, I find her...She wasone of the most help, to my
(46:18):
surprise, one of the mosthelpful people I'd ever met. And
I didn't know her. But I thinkthe discovery is most people are
happy to try to help if theycan, and happy to help provide
information. People like to talkabout their own careers, if
their careers are relevant. Andas long as you can engage in the
dialogue and the discussion tokind of dig deeper and ask
(46:40):
questions, it's an opportunityfor you to continue to move
forward in terms of expandingthings, and the people you know.
Jesse Butts (46:51):
I've had similar experience as well, where I
think so many of us assume thatit's such a burden that we're
asking people, or annoyance. Weall have been there, we've all
needed to find a job, we've allneeded to get out of a job. We
get that networking is how youdo that. So I completely agree.
When someone asks for a littlebit of my time because they're
(47:13):
interested in something I do, orI know somebody, those are some
of the things that I'll bendover backwards to find a time to
meet. I personally just enjoyit. But I know how that one
introduction can lead to a wholenew career, because it's
happened to me. And I think,those of us who've been in that
(47:34):
situation, very earnestly wantto pay that forward.
Paul Erdahl (47:38):
Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more Jesse. And
just a follow up, I mentionedit's kind of like building a
pyramid. But typically, whathappens is you start the
networking process is, you'llget more and more focused as you
learn more and you start talkingto people. And you start to zoom
in, which is really the nextpart of this whole process, is
(47:58):
figuring out Well, what, andagain, what's my marketing
strategy here? Right? And whatare the areas that I want to
really kind of zoom in on. Andjust to kind of give you
some...if you think about this,if you're creating a matrix on a
piece of paper, Do I want towork in a big business? Do I
want to work in a smallbusiness? Do I want to work in a
(48:19):
nonprofit? Do I want to work inan academic environment of some
sort? Do I want to work on myown? Do I want to work for a
consulting firm? What does thatall look like? And then it
starts to move towards sort of,What product or service do I
want to be associated with? I'veshared with many people, I mean,
this is also about sort ofcoming out of that self
(48:40):
discovery process. There's adifferent type of person who
wants to go work at the RitzCarlton than wants to go and
work at IKEA. And it's adifferent kind of customer
service. It's a different kindof interaction. I worked at a
company here in Minneapolis,Medtronic, which is medical
technology company. I walkedinto Medtronic, and it was like
coming home to a place I'd neverbeen before. It was really that
(49:03):
kind of experience where I lovedit. I loved the people I was
with, I loved the work that theywere doing, I loved the products
they were selling. All thosekinds of things, in contrast to
having worked at anotherorganization prior to Medtronic,
where it was an agriculturalfirm. And I couldn't stand it.
All due respect to those inagricultural fields. I just got
(49:26):
bored silly sitting in meetingstalking about, you know, soy
beans and molasses and otheragricultural products. And I
should have learned. I did findmy ninth grade career interest
inventory, and the very lowestscore on my entire interest
inventory was agriculture. Andthat was something, was an Aha
Moment for me that it'simportant to be in the right
(49:48):
place, doing the right things. Imay have been doing the right HR
kind of skills and things, butit was not in an environment
that was aligned with me. So Ithink it's that marketing
strategy becomes a, Okay, let menarrow down the field I want to
work in. I want to work inretail. Is that target? Is it
Best Buy? Is it Nordstroms? Isit, you know, what type of an
(50:09):
organization is that? Or I wantto work in technology. Is it
Apple? Is it Google? Is itVerizon telephones? What is it?
And so how do I start to narrowthat down, because that's the
process. Now one of the things,if you haven't already gathered,
this is not end to end...this isnot a quick process. And with
most of the executives andleaders and people that I've
(50:31):
worked with, who are giving thissort of their full attention,
this can be easily six months toa 12 month kind of process, to
kind of go through the selfdiscovery, to begin to think
about how I want to framemyself, to begin to think about
those networking contacts I wantto leverage, to think about how
do I narrow my marketingchannels in terms of what kind
(50:54):
of organizations do I want tofocus on, and then you get to
the end where you're actuallygoing in and trying to break in
and interview and connect withpeople.
Jesse Butts (51:03):
Yeah, and that's something...we've gone over a
ton of useful, great informationhere. We've really gotten a
great sense of self discovery,we've gotten incredible insights
into how to craft our story, andhow to think about what are
those company sizes, thosesectors, industry sectors, and
(51:24):
we now have networks. So let'ssay that we've gone through
that, and we had a greatnetworking experience, and it
led to an interview. So we're inthe interview, How do you
recommend that people in thissituation talk about, or maybe
not talk about, that academicexperience, especially if they
don't have other more, quoteunquote, relevant experience?
(51:48):
How do you suggest listenershandle those interviews? If the
interviewer, the hiring manager,does start grilling you about,
How does this PhD relate? Or,what have you done since
workwise? Since undergrad?
Things like that?
Paul Erdahl (52:06):
Yeah, I think the key answer is you need to be
honest with people. Right? Soit's not like I can make up a
career I haven't had. But Ithink that the challenge is you
just described as, Well, why isyour background relevant to me?
Jesse Butts (52:20):
Exactly.
Paul Erdahl (52:21):
If you take the time and you're working on your
story, Why is it relevant toyou? What what were the skills
and the abilities and thingsthat you you bring to the table
that will make you a valuableasset to whatever the job is
that you're applying for? Now,maybe these are a few kind of
tactical things just to thinkabout. It's important to
(52:43):
realize, if, depending on whatyour job title was, you're
probably, if you're making acareer switch from academia, or
into a new kind of career,you're probably going to start
as an individual contributor.
Unless you've had managementexperience, which would be a
huge asset, to kind of thinkabout, Well, I've managed
people, I know how to get workdone through others, I know how
(53:03):
to make those things happen. Ifyou're coming in, what you
really need to sell is a conceptthat's out there, and you can
Google this, around learningagility. And I think even today,
when I work on successionplanning in organizations, one
of the things we look at is, wecertainly look at past
(53:23):
performance, what kinds ofthings that people done, how
have they done, what has therebeen their level of performance
and success? But the otherelement we look at as we think
about people is, What potentialdo they have to step up to the
next level role in anorganization? And similarly, if
you're coming in with a uniquebackground into a role, you
(53:44):
really have to sell yourpotential, because you're really
most likely stepping in a jobyou've never done before. The
question is, are you agileenough? Are you capable enough?
Are you dedicated enough tolearn new ways of thinking, new
ways of doing things? And haveyou demonstrated that in the
past, likely you have, if you'vegone from one situation to
(54:07):
another someplace, you've takenon a role or responsibility,
you've done volunteer work,doing something, you've led a
committee, you've been involvedas a volunteer someplace,
whatever it might be. How haveyou demonstrated your ability to
continually learn and step intosituations that are new and
different? And how canyou...that's your opportunity,
(54:29):
rather, for you to reallyconvince somebody is, My
background and experience isrelevant because it's based on
continual learning and continualgrowth. And that's what I'm
going to do here. I can come in,I may not know the specifics of
this job, but I'm pretty surethat in the next three to six
months, I can probably learn 99%of what I need to know to do
(54:50):
this job. And with that, I bringunique background, unique
perspectives, different ways ofthinking than people out of more
traditional paths might have.
Jesse Butts (55:02):
So I just want to really emphasize that point.
That what you say learn issomething you will absolutely
have to learn. And you might notget a lot of time to do it on
the job. That might be somethingthat needs to be done outside of
working hours, initially, atleast. But I think that's just a
(55:22):
reality that we need to acceptwhen we're really shooting for
something that we can't walk inday one and nail.
Paul Erdahl (55:31):
Absolutely. And I think, Jesse, one of the things
we haven't touched on is, thereare some jobs that require
certain levels of education ortraining. If you're going to try
to apply for a job as a financeperson, you better have some
background in finance, youbetter know and understand
accounting principles, and youbetter know and understand kind
(55:51):
of the basics and fundamentalsaround how all of that is done.
Now, you can probably learn thatthrough online courses and
different types of things. Butyou're going to have to be able
to talk to that. In anothersituation, if you're applying
for an HR job, what are kind ofthe...do your research, do your
homework, find out what are thecore elements of HR jobs.
(56:14):
Hopefully by this time, you'venetworked with a lot of HR
people, and you've talked tothem to understand what it is
that they do. And are theyinvolved in compensation and
benefits? Are they involved inin employee relations work? Are
they involved in talentdevelopment work? What types of
things are out there? So you canat least speak to kind of that
area, and then come on in andlearn how you're going to do
(56:38):
that. Likewise, I'll keep goingwith the HR one. I mean, there's
an association out there calledSHRM, Society for HR Management,
I think, which is one thatanybody, I think, could join.
And they offer training andvarious certifications and
things in HR. I don't think itrequires any particular
background prior to beinginvolved in that. But that, that
(57:01):
might be a route, if you'rereally committed to doing
something like that. I'mguessing there are similar
things, if you wanted to go intoit, if you wanted to go into
finance, if you wanted to gointo other professional careers
along those lines. So that'simportant. I mean, in some ways,
in other jobs, of course, if youwant to be a doctor, you want to
be a lawyer, you want to be someother types of jobs, a nurse or
(57:22):
something, you obviously have togo back and get the appropriate
training.
Jesse Butts (57:26):
Yeah, I want to bring up too that, if you're a
listener who feels like you'rein the camp of, I really just
want something better for nineto five so that I can do my
passion outside of work and onweekends, and the thought of
having to learn these skills anddo all this to lead up to a job,
it sounds too much. Obviously,Paul and I don't have the answer
(57:50):
for you, that's an individualassessment. One way I like to
think about this is, well, maybethe six months to a year that
you spend learning the skill andfinding the job, will that
enable you to spend more time onyour passion? Versus if you
continued where you are rightnow, it's five years later,
(58:13):
which path has allowed you to domore , consistently isn't quite
the right word, but five yearsfrom now, which approach to work
has allowed you to focus more onyour passion in the long run?
Paul Erdahl (58:30):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think, just to
share, I've got a very closefriend who is a musician. He and
his wife are both musicians. Andas you might imagine, that has
been a tough road, especiallythe last year or two. And he
does teaching, and I think theyboth teach. But that is
(58:53):
not...It's not as lucrative asthey want it to be. And their
performance schedule hascertainly been cut back. So in
terms of being involved inorchestras and different things,
it just hasn't been happening asmuch. So I know he's been
working at a Starbucks. And he'sbeen, I don't know what his
particular role is there. But Iknow he does that. I believe he
(59:15):
enjoys it. I think he's good atit. But that is not sort of his
heart and soul is being abarista or a manager at a
Starbucks. So that is where you,you know, you create this sort
of portfolio career where youhave these different parts in
terms of, I'm able to do somethings that I'm doing while I'm
doing other things. I haveanother writer friend, he has
(59:37):
done most of his work helpingpeople write their
dissertations, and just learningthe style around dissertations
and how do you help people thatneed those writing skills from
him. I've also connected, by theway, through my coaching work
that I'm doing with a C suiteexecutive who's a bad writer,
and have connected with anotherwriter to potentially be a
(01:00:01):
coach. A writing coach for asenior executive. And so you
start to realize where do thesethings kind of fit in there.
There are niches for some ofthese. If you're a history
major, I'm not sure that Frenchhistory is where that's going to
fit, but there might be a place,some place, or there might be a
connection through internationalorganizations where they need
somebody need somebody who'sbilingual, somebody who speaks
(01:00:22):
French, somebody who has abackground and knowledge about
French culture, there arecertainly other kinds of areas.
So I think that's where you haveto think holistically. And I'll
be honest with you, I think,especially if there are people
who are coming out of careers inacademia, they tend to be very,
(01:00:42):
very narrow, kind of focused, interms of how they think about
things. Now, I probably angeringa few people here. But if your
focus has been, I'm a professorof psychology, or math, or
history, or whatever it mightbe, it's about, How do I start
to think about theadministrative aspects of the
(01:01:02):
college or university? How do Istart to think about the broader
kind of perspectives of things?
People need to be connectingdots at a much wider range than
saying, I'm just gonna stay inmy lane. You've got to get out
of your lane and start to thinkabout, What do I bring to other
areas? What can I bring as partof that value proposition where
(01:01:23):
I can create value and make adifference in different types of
spaces? And I think most peoplewill be surprised to discover
there's opportunities out there.
Jesse Butts (01:01:34):
Yeah, the port portfolio career is an
interesting concept. I havenever heard a term for that. And
one thing I just want toclarify, the question I posed
was a bit leading. I didn't meanit to be. I mean, for example,
if you have a passion that has alimited shelf life, and I'm
thinking, for example, if you'rea ballet dancer, and it's the
(01:01:55):
question of, Do I spend a yearnow focusing on this? It might
that answer could very well beabsolutely not. I need to keep
my prime dancing years as freefor dancing as possible. And
utmost respect for that. So Ijust wanted to clarify that I
wasn't trying to stop anybody inthose type of situations by any
means.
Paul Erdahl (01:02:14):
Right. I couldn't agree more. And I think that
that's key. You're, of course,bringing up some of the most
challenging, unique jobs outthere, Jesse. So...
Jesse Butts (01:02:23):
We don't call it The Work Seminar for nothing
here.
Paul Erdahl (01:02:25):
Yeah. So you know, I just want to...and kind of my
overall perspective is it doestake some discovery, it does
kind of take peeling back theonion a little bit to find out,
Where is that other space that Ican play in? And if you can play
in the one that you're in, andyou really love it, stay there.
Enjoy it as long as you possiblycan. But when that time comes,
(01:02:49):
and when you need to startthinking about different kinds
of things, be adaptable. Bethinking about, How can I can I
make that kind of a shift? WhenI went out on my own, now seven
years ago, I had one vision ofwhat I was...kind of the
services and what was theconsulting space I wanted to
play in. And when I look at whatI'm doing today, it's nothing
(01:03:09):
related to what I thought I wasgoing to be doing even seven
years ago. So it is thatcontinual learning process. It's
that openness to newexperiences, and new ideas, and
openness to thinking out of thebox and thinking more broadly,
in terms of How, what can I dowith this knowledge, these
skills, these interests, thesevalues that I have?
Jesse Butts (01:03:31):
Yeah, and I think that's an important point in the
sense that what I land as a jobafter this, let's call it six
months of work, doesn't have tobe and might not, and very
likely will not be, the lifelongwork. What I thought was really
important maybe five years afterundergrad for work, I found
(01:03:55):
immensely boring 10 years afterundergrad.
Paul Erdahl (01:03:59):
Exactly.
Jesse Butts (01:04:00):
And I've also had the experience too where I've
thought taking on moreresponsibility would be
fulfilling. And some of itabsolutely was, but some of that
I absolutely had to roll back.
It just wasn't right for me.
This has been great, Paul. We'vegone over so much information.
For people, we'll have things inthe show notes. If someone is
(01:04:21):
interested in chatting with youor possibly working with you,
what is the best way for them tocontact you?
Paul Erdahl (01:04:26):
Well, I would point people toward my website, my
organization, my firm that I runis called Global Talent
Strategies. And it's out atwww.GlobalTalentStrategies.com.
And that has all my contactinformation out there as well as
additional information aboutsome of the areas that I focus
on.
Jesse Butts (01:04:45):
Great. Well, thank you for joining us, Paul. We
appreciate it.
Paul Erdahl (01:04:48):
Thank you, Jesse.
This has been great, and I wisheverybody who's listening, I
hope you can find that pathforward that works for you.
Jesse Butts (01:04:59):
Thanks for listening to this episode of The
Work Seminar. If you like whatyou've heard, please take a
minute to rate the show on yourfavorite podcast app. Know
someone who'd be a great WorkSeminar guest? Or have a
suggestion or two for the show?
You can reach me atJesse@TheWorkSeminar.com, or
@TheWorkSeminar on social. Andspecial thanks, as always, to
Jon Camp for the music andIsabel Patino for the cover art
(01:05:20):
and design. Until next time,never cease from exploration.
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