Amanda’s passion for public finance harkens back to her undergrad days. Yet before grad school, she had never intended to pursue applied public policy work.
Her interest in social theory and the effects of capitalism in international aid and development led her to pursue an MA in geography. After finishing her thesis on post-earthquake reconstruction efforts in Haiti, she landed a job researching Illinois’ public pension systems.
Soon, she was neck deep in public finance questions reminiscent of her scholarship. Reveling in that work led Amanda to reconsider her future career.
And when she discovered that University of Illinois at Chicago’s PhD in urban planning and policy program included faculty with geography and public finance experience, she found her doctoral calling.
Now her work at UIC’s Government Finance Research Center continues the thread of helping people understand where their money goes—and how it’s being used.
Had Amanda not been open to a job in applied policy, she might never have found industry work she loves.
Note: Apologies in advance to listeners without strong Illinois or Chicago ties. We delve into the weeds a bit — just a bit — of Land of Lincoln and Windy City taxes and finances. But to the locals: Enjoy!
Resources mentioned
Amanda and Daniel Kay Hertz’s TIF Explainer
Where to find Amanda and the Government Finance Research Center
UIC’s Government Finance Research Center
Check out more from The Work Seminar
Visit theworkseminar.com or find @TheWorkSeminar on social media.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesse Butts (00:24):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting with AmandaKass, an MA in geography and
PhD in urban planning and policyturned public finance analyst.
Amanda is now the associatedirector of the Government
Finance Research Centerat the University of
Illinois at Chicago.
(00:45):
Amanda, welcome to the show.
Thanks for joining me.
Amanda Kass (00:47):
Hey, thanks so much for having me.
Jesse Butts (00:49):
Absolutely.
So before we dive into thepath from geography to urban
planning to public financingor to public finance, excuse
me, I'm wondering if you couldtell us a little bit about
what you're doing at UIC now.
What is the Government FinanceResearch Center's focus?
(01:09):
And how do you relate to that?
Amanda Kass (01:12):
Yeah.
So the center, the GovernmentFinance Research Center,
we were launched in 2018.
So we're still a relativelykind of new center.
And we're a research unitwithin UIC, within the
College of Urban Planning andPublic Affairs, specifically.
Um, and so our mission is toshape and inform public policy
and scholarly discourse ongovernment and public finance.
(01:34):
Kind of, I think what thatmeans is, we do exactly
what our name says.
We study and research,government finance.
And we kind of disseminate thatresearch, I think, in a variety
of mediums, because we're reallyinterested in shaping public
policy and public discourse.
So we write blogs, wewrite research papers,
we write academic papers.
We do interviews like this.
Jesse Butts (01:57):
You're kind of, or not kind of, you're
a non-partisan vehicle for,for people who are trying to
figure out what exactly isbeing spent and the efficacy of
that with public institutions?
Amanda Kass (02:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think, you know, for me, Icame into kind of public finance
from a non kind of linear path.
And so one of my interestshas long been like, How do I
explain to other people how toresearch public finance issues?
How do I explain to someoneor help them get tools to
be able to understand howtheir own community is
(02:34):
spending public dollars?
Jesse Butts (02:36):
Is this at all levels of government?
Or are you concentrated mostlyon like federal or state or
Chicago specifically or...?
Amanda Kass (02:45):
We're pretty focused on local governments,
not specific to Chicago, butI'd say local governments
within the United States.
Um, my kind of careerbackground is such that I also
kind of personally focus onthe state of Illinois, city
of Chicago, and other localgovernments in Illinois.
Jesse Butts (03:03):
Great.
So now that we have abetter understanding of what
you're doing and what theorganization is all about,
can you tell us a little bitabout why you decided to go
to grad school for geography?
What made you want to gobeyond your undergrad studies?
Amanda Kass (03:23):
It's nice to, I don't know, I guess
reflect on that a little bit.
So, I, when I went toundergrad, when I started
undergrad, I actually hada really strong interest in
international developmentand international studies.
So I started out as aninternational studies major
and I thought that I would goon to do international work,
international developmentwork, but kind of found
(03:46):
that I wasn't totallyinterested in, in doing that.
And was, you know, like manyundergrads kind of thinking
like, What else do I do?
And a friend at the timesaid, Hey, you should take
a geographic informationsystem, a GIS class.
Like GIS is somesoftware you can learn.
(04:06):
It's a practical skill.
It'll open up a lotof doors to you.
And so that's, that was kind ofmy introduction to geography.
And then I took someother classes within the
geography department,specifically, a class that
was about development.
But it started with kind of aphilosophical question of, of
kind of, What is development?
And introduced me tokind of social theory.
(04:29):
And I just loved that class.
And that's, that's what setme on the path for geography.
And I worked reallyclosely with the professor
who taught that class.
And I did anundergraduate thesis.
And he really encouragedme to kind of go on in and
pursue an academic route.
And then I should say toomy, both my dad and my
(04:51):
brother work in academia.
So it, this was kind of likea known career path for me.
Jesse Butts (04:58):
of us, and I'm definitely including myself
in this, who really aren'tthat familiar with what one
studies in, in a geographyprogram, undergrad or graduate,
what kind of, of courses,or emphases or, or focuses
can you study in geography?
Amanda Kass (05:18):
Yeah.
I think geography is a reallygreat discipline that has a
lot of sub specialties in it.
So let's say, if you're reallypassionate about climate change
and issues of climate change,there's physical geography
is one of the branches.
I got to take a classwith one of the kind of
world premiere people onclimatology, who did ice
(05:41):
core samples as an undergrad.
There's also human geography.
So if you're kind ofinterested in societal
questions around, let's saycapitalism or the labor market.
Like, how does U.S.
consumption impactinternational issues?
You can study that in geography.
And then there's also the kindof spatial science aspect.
(06:04):
Like I said, doing geographicinformation systems.
That I think of as kind ofmore applied route with a lot
of kind of technical skills.
So geography is a really big,I think, umbrella with a lot
of really interesting branchesor sub-disciplines to it.
Jesse Butts (06:19):
And you were taking initially that more...
Is it GIS?
That's an acronym for that
Amanda Kass (06:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
GIS.
Yep.
Jesse Butts (06:29):
Okay.
And what are you, what areyou doing in that software
exactly, or broadly?
Maybe not exactly as theright way to phrase that.
Amanda Kass (06:37):
I, the way I use it is I think of it like a tool.
Like I think of Excelor I think of R.
And it's a tool fordoing spatial analysis
and for map making.
So, let's say I wannamake a map of all of the
municipalities that arein Cook County, Illinois.
(06:59):
My interest is inpopulation growth.
So I want to be able tovisually see which communities
have seen their populationsgrow and which ones have seen
their populations shrink.
That's something Ican do in Arc GIS.
Jesse Butts (07:14):
Is this also like if there were...
Perhaps some like proposed,I don't know, shopping center
or factory, is this type ofsoftware you'd use to determine
like, you know, how big itcould be or how it would fit
or that type of thing as well?
Amanda Kass (07:27):
Yeah, for sure.
There's a lot you cando in GIS software.
Think of it, like you canput in a lot of different
layers and analyze thoselayers all at once.
So let's say you, you'reconsidering lots of different
sites for, you said a mall ora development, and you want
to take into considerationtransportation, environmental
(07:49):
impact, nearby population,other businesses that might
feed into this new business.
You could layer all of thatin GIS and use kind of some of
the analysis tools to refinethe location and kind of narrow
it down from, let's say areally big pool of locations
to more specified ones.
Jesse Butts (08:10):
Got it.
So, when you started yourmaster's and you were working
through that program, youentered with this kind of, I
don't want to say GIS focus, butmaybe the route surrounding that
was what you were interested in.
Did that change or evolveas you, you engaged
more with the field?
Amanda Kass (08:30):
I would say I have kind of, um, I had dual
parts to myself at that time.
So the GIS part was, Ithink, rooted in a more
kind of practicalityof, I need job skills.
Cause I graduated undergradin 2008 when the financial
crisis was happening, right.
So that was reallyformative to me.
And I really thought aboutwhat kind of jobs can I get?
(08:55):
And I felt a real importanceof like having skills
that could land me jobs.
But then the other part of mewas, was really academically
inclined and reallyinterested in social theory.
Kind of critiquesabout capitalism.
Um, and that was the kind ofside that I was pursuing when I
(09:15):
went to do the master's program.
It was not kind of GIS,rooted or practical at all.
It was really rooted in thesekinds of questions about
international developmentand a kind of capitalism.
Jesse Butts (09:27):
I'm sorry.
I misunderstood that.
As you were in your programand you are finishing
up, did your interest ininternational development,
the, you know, critiques andquestions about capitalism.
Did that intensify?
Or were you leaving with kindof a different perspective
than what you started?
Amanda Kass (09:45):
Yeah, it's I think I got kind of burnt
out in the master's programto be totally candid.
So, again, I went there when Istarted the master's program,
I thought I would continueon into the PhD program.
So I, I kind of viewthe master's as like a
stepping stone to the PhD.
And again, at thattime I was doing more
(10:05):
kind of internationallyfocused research.
My thesis for my masters wasabout the post earthquake
reconstruction efforts in Haiti.
I went to Haiti for justabout a week, and kind
of And I was particularlyinterested in the kind of
outpouring of internationalaid and particularly U.S.
(10:26):
aid that was pledged tothe reconstruction efforts.
And I was really interestedin like, Where does
that money actually go?
And then this, this kindof brought up like lots of
ethical questions for me oflike, essentially, like, What
am I doing with this thesis?
Or would this work tokind of actually make
the world a better place?
And I just kind of felt likewhat I was pursuing was not,
(10:49):
not what I wanted to do.
But I didn't really knowwhat I wanted to do.
But I just knew that thepath that I was on, wasn't
what I wanted to keep doing.
Jesse Butts (10:58):
And just, just timeframe wise, you finished
your master's in 2011.
Am I remembering that correctly?
Amanda Kass (11:04):
Yep.
Jesse Butts (11:05):
I know probably technically we were out of The
Great Recession, but you know,as far as I can recall, it
still felt like we were in thethroes or the aftershock of it.
But what did you end updoing after you, you finished
your master's and knew thatyou didn't want to pursue
the PhD in geography?
Amanda Kass (11:22):
It's kind of a funny story.
So I finished up my master'sat the same time that my now
husband was finishing up hisundergrad, and he was moving
to Chicago for graduate school.
So I moved, moved toChicago with him and
didn't really have a plan.
I spent the first summer that wewere there writing my master's
(11:44):
thesis up and just applying toevery and any job that I could.
Because I had these GISskills that I developed
as an undergrad, I appliedto kind of anything
that had to do with GIS.
I just applied to stuff thathad to do with public policy.
Initially, I workedat a retail store.
I worked at Banana Republic whenwe first moved there because
(12:07):
I really had, I had no idea,you know, like, what's next?
What do I want to do?
But I need a job.
Jesse Butts (12:13):
First I want to say that a summer in
Chicago, not knowing whatto do is a pretty good place
to be and good time of year.
For anybody considering Chicago.
But, um, that plug aside.
So how long were you workingat Banana Republic or, or
sorting things out beforeyou landed on, you know,
(12:33):
work that was more alignedto, to what you were doing?
Or is that when you wereseriously considering
an urban policy PhD?
Amanda Kass (12:40):
No, I wasn't.
So when I came toChicago, I kind of knew.
I had an interest in likesome day maybe I'll, I'll
go back and pursue a PhD.
There's no geographyPhD programs in Chicago.
So I was kinda like, Idon't know what's next.
I heard about the Urban Planningand Policy Program at UIC and
(13:02):
thought of that as kind ofmost aligned with my interests.
And actually CUPPA the collegehas a job's board, just an
online kind of list of jobs.
And I actually went to thatand, and looked at jobs on
there and applied to the jobthat I got, which was as a
researcher for the Center forTax and Budget Accountability.
(13:23):
And I have like no ideawhat was going on in my
brain that made me think Iwas qualified for the job.
Because I'm like, wasn't,it was for a position
researching Illinois'public pension systems.
I didn't have a backgroundin fiscal policy or
public finance at all.
(13:44):
I didn't know anythingabout Illinois' politics.
Like I'd heard of who RodBlagojevich was but didn't
know anything past that.
Had no awareness thatpublic pensions in Illinois
were underfunded or whata huge issue this was.
Like just no idea what Iwas getting myself into.
But like, there's something inmy brain that was like, Oh, like
I was interested in money whenit came to the reconstruction,
(14:07):
reconstruction efforts in Haiti,this has to do with money.
This seems like an interestingorganization, I'll apply for it.
I'm lucky that I got itand it ended up being a
really great fit for me.
But I still, you know, I I'mlike, I don't know what was
going on in my brain thought,I thought that I could do this.
Jesse Butts (14:27):
I think this is a really interesting point though,
is that we often feel thatwe're not qualified or we're
far from the ideal candidate.
And we let that hinder us.
But it can be taking thesechances like these that
changed the trajectory ofour careers and our lives.
Amanda Kass (14:44):
Oh, Yeah.
And it totally the other,like, I don't know.
I think like funny thing thatI think back on is, I had
long said, like, I wasn'tinterested in doing applied
work or public policy work.
And then here I was aftermy master's degree, like
gravitating towards jobsthat have direct kind
of public policy work.
(15:05):
Or like that's really thespace that the work that
I've been doing is in.
And so, yeah, it was likenot only a job that was not
quite aligned with my academictraining, but also kind of
in a field that I had longthought is like, oh, not for me.
Jesse Butts (15:21):
So what led to that mind shift change?
Amanda Kass (15:25):
That's such a good question.
I wish I could like putmyself back in where I was at.
Like, I guess it waslike almost 10 years ago.
I think at the time I wasjust applying to like any and
all jobs that I thought I wasremotely qualified for and that,
and that seemed interesting.
And I was fortunate that thejob that I got at the Center for
Tax and Budget Accountabilitywas one that I really loved and,
(15:48):
and I think through that job,learned how much I really do
like having a foot and kind ofthe quote unquote, real world,
of impacting policy or beingable to weigh in on contemporary
policy political issues.
And so it was really likethrough that job experience,
I think, that I uncovered thatwhat I'm really interested in.
Jesse Butts (16:11):
And was that the job prior to applying
to PhD programs andgoing that route or...?
Amanda Kass (16:19):
Yeah, it was.
So I worked at CTBA forseveral years before I
applied to the PhD program.
And then when I started thePhD program, worked there
part-time for a while.
Jesse Butts (16:32):
As you entered the urban planning
program, is public financetypically a concentration?
Or was this kind of anotherscenario of finding something
a little tangential and thenkind of making it your own?
Amanda Kass (16:49):
I think it's definitely for
me was a little...
the latter.
Finding something that'sa little tangential and
like making it my own.
Again, when I first moved toChicago, I had heard about CUPPA
and part of why I'd heard aboutit is the person who became
my advisor, Brenda Parker, herPhD is actually in geography.
So the urban planning andpolicy program was long on
(17:10):
my radar as like the mostgeograpyish program in Chicago.
And then there's scholarslike Rachel Weber and Phil
Ashton that their, their workisn't kind of public finance,
but it's public finance ish.
So Rachel Weber asks a lotof questions about kind
(17:33):
of economic development.
She does a lot of work aroundtax increment financing.
And so I thought that theprogram was a really good
fit with my interests.
And then, I've kind of startedbuilding up this career doing
public finance, and I wanted tokeep that, I guess, that, that
kind of career door path going.
(17:53):
So I kept workingthroughout the PhD program.
Jesse Butts (17:57):
And there are just a couple terms you
mentioned that I want tomake sure that we understand.
So CUPPA, what is that?
Amanda Kass (18:04):
Oh, CUPPA is the, let me make sure
I get the acronym right.
It's the College of UrbanPlanning and Public Affairs.
So it's, the college atUIC that I did my PhD in
and that I still work at.
And so the college hastwo different departments.
One is the public administrationdepartment and the other is
(18:25):
the urban planning and policy.
And so public financetypically falls more in
public administrationdepartments than urban planning
and policy departments.
Jesse Butts (18:35):
And you mentioned, I actually can't
recall the definition.
I just know the acronym, TIF.
I know kind of what it is.
It has to do something withcertain areas can spend
taxes in certain ways.
But maybe you could give usa real definition of that.
Amanda Kass (18:54):
Uh, TIF is such a thorny, thorny, thorny topic.
So TIF stands for taxincrement financing.
And so it's, it's an economicdevelopment tool, basically.
So what happens is an areagets designated a TIF district.
And so then all the propertiesthat are in that district, all
(19:16):
the properties within the TIFdistrict, then any growth that
is in their property value,the taxes from the growth and
the property values is used tofinance development projects
within that TIF district.
Jesse Butts (19:30):
Let's just use Chicago as an example.
If Navy Pier expanded,and that brought lot
of growth and revenue.
Instead of that going back toall of Chicago or for, know,
the mayor's office to figureout how that spent that district
(19:51):
instead gets to decide where,in its purview, that's spent,
versus the whole city saying,Oh, we got a little extra money.
We can apply it in thisneighborhood five miles away.
Amanda Kass (20:02):
Yeah, that's roughly how it works.
And part of the argumentis that that extra money
wouldn't have happenedbut for the development.
And so, but for this TIFdistrict, you wouldn't
have had that extra money.
And the actual kind of mechanicsare a little more complicated.
I actually wrote, I think anexplainer about TIFs with Daniel
(20:24):
Kay Hertz a couple of years ago.
And I think it's on my websiteor it's on his website if
people are listening to thisand like scratching their
heads, like what's a TIF?
Jesse Butts (20:35):
TIF and some of these other things, these are
the kinds of things you'reinterested in studying.
These implications of how howtax revenue is collected and
how it's spent ...Are thesethe things that you're diving
into more in both your PhDprogram and the job that you
maintained during that time?
Amanda Kass (20:56):
Yeah, definitely.
And I think some of ittoo was, was a desire to
provide information andexplanations to people.
So I think public finance isoften highly technical, somewhat
arcane, and there's like ahigh barrier to be able to
kind of enter the conversationin and discuss about it.
(21:17):
TIF is a good example of,I think, there's a lot
of politics around TIF.
But there's also often a lotof, kind of confusion about
the actual mechanics of TIF.
How does it work?
What does it do?
Jesse Butts (21:30):
As you are in your PhD program and you're
simultaneously working fulltime, what are you thinking
as you get close to yourdissertation or start working
on it as to what you want to doafter you finish the program?
Amanda Kass (21:48):
That's uh, that's a good question.
Again, as somebody whograduated undergrad in the
last financial crisis, thatwas really formative to me.
And also seeing thekind of massive changes
I think in higher ed.
So as a PhD student and somebodyin the PhD program, right, like
(22:10):
you're kind of trained that theend goal is an academic job.
That the end goal is to get atenure track position at a R1,
you know, research institution.
But those jobs are very,very few and far between.
So I kind of, again, have thismindset of like, I want to
keep a foot in a world outsideof academia to kind of try
(22:34):
and keep the maximum numberof career op the doors open.
And I was really fortunate thatthe center that I'm currently
at launched in 2018, whichis around the time I think
that I started, I think Ipassed my qualifying exams.
I was like all butdissertation at that point.
(22:55):
And so I got the positionas the associate director.
And kind of helped launchthe center with the founding
director who is also theDean at the college of CUPPA.
And, I'll be like candid oflike I haven't really thought
much past my current position.
I'm fortunate thatI love this job.
We have a new director,Deborah Carroll, who
(23:15):
started this past summer.
Who's amazing.
I love working with her.
We've got some reallyinteresting research projects
that we've got going on.
So I've been fortunate though.
Like, I don't really need tothink past my current job.
Jesse Butts (23:28):
Nice.
And just to, to clarify.
So you finished yourdissertation while working
at your current job?
Amanda Kass (23:36):
Yes.
Which I don't, if anybody'sinterested in doing a
PhD, I don't totallyrecommend doing that...
Jesse Butts (23:43):
So just a very practical question.
You were working andgoing to school full time.
You finished yourdissertation while you're
at your full-time job.
What is it like now nothaving an academic obligation
over you as you're working?
Amanda Kass (23:59):
Oh, gosh.
It's interesting.
It took...
So, when I was working onthe dissertation, writing
it, I would start writingat like 5.30 in the morning.
And spend a couple hourswriting and then switch over
to doing my full-time job.
And during that phaseof like getting the
dissertation done, there'sno work-life balance at all.
It was kind of like workwas all consuming.
(24:22):
And luckily my dissertationand PhD interests somewhat
align or overlap a littlebit with my work interests.
So it wasn't like I was intwo totally different worlds.
But now that I'm done withthe dissertation, it's
been a little bit of...
unlearning.
Like learning or relearninghow to have a life outside
(24:44):
of being a PhD studentand a full-time employee.
So like trying torediscover hobbies and
what to do with free time.
Jesse Butts (24:51):
Are you still like waking up at 5.30 out
of habit or have you...?
Amanda Kass (24:55):
No.
Oh my gosh.
No.
But it took, it took a littlewhile to like undo that, right.
And, and like undo thisfeeling of like, Oh, I have
to be, I have to be likewaking up early and being
quote unquote productive.
And if I'm not being quote,unquote productive, then
I'm doing something wrong.
Jesse Butts (25:14):
So reflecting back a little bit, are there any
other areas from your study,from your master's program
that you see a relationshipto your current work?
Like any skills orjust any of the topics
that you were studying?
Amanda Kass (25:30):
Yeah.
I think, some of the skillsthat I developed as an undergrad
is thinking critically.
So, taking a step backand, and trying to see a
bigger picture or, engagekind of like critically
with the question beforejust like jumping into it.
I think the other big thing Igot, especially from the GIS
work was around data managementand data organization.
(25:54):
So I think that's like oneof my plugs for why people
should do GIS classes.
In addition to learning how todo geographic information system
work and learning that software,you develop really good, at
least for me, you developreally good habits for how you
organize and manage your data.
And not just data, butlike any documents.
(26:15):
Like how do youorganize Word documents?
How do you deal withversion control?
That's super, I think, practicaland helpful and a skill
that you develop that can beapplicable to kind of any job.
Jesse Butts (26:27):
What did, what did you have to learn about yourself
to find work that would fit you?
Especially, rulingout academic careers?
Amanda Kass (26:37):
I wouldn't say I ruled it out.
I think what I would say iswhat I, what I did rule out
is viewing that as the onlypath and the only marker of
success or a good career.
And I think what I had to learnabout myself, I think what
I had to learn in general isthat, is that there's lots of
(26:57):
other types of jobs and there'sother work that is fulfilling.
So, you know, one thingthat I learned again is
like, I really liked thiskind of more applied side.
I liked the side of doing publicpolicy work that was more in the
short term or in the immediacy.
So as an example, Illinois,the state of Illinois in the
(27:18):
state General Assembly, isworking on crafting the budget
for the upcoming fiscal year,which will be fiscal year 2023.
And what I really enjoy duringbudget season is being able
to read the proposed budget.
I get asked by reportersto kind of weigh in of,
you know, the governor putforward his budget proposal.
What do you think about it?
(27:39):
How's the state ofIllinois' fiscal situation?
Is it improving?
Is it declining?
And I really like tobe being able to engage
in that kind of work.
And I the nature of academicwork is often so longterm.
So for example, I just gotan article finally knock on
wood published, and it tooktwo years from the first
(28:01):
submission of the articlefor that to get published.
And that's not evencounting the kind of data
collection and analysis time.
So a two year processfor one article.
So I guess what I had to learna little bit about myself
too, was it was that I like...
I don't like working onjust a very long term
timeline for projects.
I like the mix ofshort- and long-term.
(28:24):
I don't know if thatmakes any sense.
Jesse Butts (28:26):
I think, I think it absolutely does.
I'm wondering if we couldprovide a little context for
listeners outside of Illinois.
When you talk about planning forthe state budget and that work.
Was it three, fouryears that Illinois
went without any budget?
I mean, just, if you could givea little context to why this is
such a bigger deal in Illinoisthan a lot of other states.
Amanda Kass (28:49):
Yeah.
So the, I mean, there are budgetbattles in every state, and
every state has its own kindof like fiscal year cycle.
And in some places they havetwo year budgets, not an
annual budget like Illinois.
But yeah, it's gosh,long been contentious.
I think since I've beenworking on Illinois finances,
(29:09):
which is since 2011, I thinkit's always been contentious.
It kind of reached a peak duringthe last governor's tenure.
So during GovernorRauner's tenure.
Governor Raunerwas a Republican.
There was a Democratic ledGeneral Assembly, both in
the House and the Senate.
And it was like aloggerhead over the budget.
(29:32):
And so the state didn'thave a budget, a formal
budget for two fiscal years.
Again, this is why, I likereally like public finance
and love what I do is thateven saying that there was
no budget for two years,isn't totally correct.
There's many aspects of the kindof state's functions that are
on autopilot and that it doesn'trequire the General Assembly and
(29:55):
governor to sign off on a budgetfor spending to be occurring.
And the General Assemblypassed funding for K
through 12 education.
And the governor signedthat into law, which is
one of the biggest chunksfor the state budget.
So, there was an impasse overthe budget for two years, but
not kind of all aspects of thestate's finances were affected.
(30:16):
And not all aspects of societykind of felt the consequences
of the budget crisis.
Jesse Butts (30:22):
You mentioned that you love your job.
For you, howimportant is job fit?
Do you need to finda job that you love?
Or is it kind of serendipitousfor you that you have?
Amanda Kass (30:33):
For me, it's huge to find a job that I love.
And it's not just aboutthe work that I do.
It's also the people that Iwork with, which is one of
the reasons I really love UIC.
And I really love CUPPA.
And so it's been a really,it's been a really great fit
of, I feel like I'm doingmeaningful work and I'm
getting to do that with peopleI really enjoy working with.
Jesse Butts (30:55):
With your job, obviously what you do
is, is very public facing.
And I don't know if it's astep above and beyond, or
part of the job, but, I mean,your writing has appeared
in, in Chicago Magazine,Crain's Business Chicago.
I've seen you on uh, ChicagoTonight, which is a show
on WTTW, which is Chicago'sPBS affiliate affiliate.
(31:19):
How did, did you start all that?
And how does that fitinto the job for you?
Is, is that an expectationof your role or is that
just, I mean, your passion?
Amanda Kass (31:28):
Yeah.
I think that's, that's, I don'tknow, nice of you to ask and
somewhat nice to reflect on.
I don't, it's definitelynot a requirement of
the job, I don't think.
I think it's, again, whenyou were talking about, you
know, What kind of like led medown the path, or what did I
have to uncover about myself?
That's something also thatI discovered is that I like,
I personally like havingthat public facing role.
(31:50):
I, I find it both liketerrifying to go on live
TV and live radio, but alsoreally like exciting and, uh, a
real, like, I dunno, a feelingof accomplishment after it.
And also like a, just a senseof like, you know, I watched
Chicago Tonight for a long time.
And it felt like, well,I can be on there.
Like I knew stuff aboutIllinois' finances.
(32:11):
I know stuff aboutChicago's finances.
I can speak to these issues.
And the way that I got intoit actually was from the
first job I had in Chicagoat the Center for Tax and
Budget Accountability.
I worked with somebodythere who unfortunately
has since passed away.
Her name was Kathy Miller.
And I first get into this joband she's like, Amanda, you
(32:33):
need, you need to introduceyourself to this reporter.
You're now the personwho studies pension.
This person has apension question.
You need to call them upand you need to introduce
yourself to them.
And I was terrified of doingthat, and very resistant.
It was like, no, no, no.
I'm a researcher.
I want to sit in mylittle corner over here
(32:55):
and sit on my computerand crunch these numbers.
I don't want to call anyone.
No.
But I was also, you know, newto a job, new to this career.
And it was just like, Idon't, I don't know, I
guess I have to do this.
And call that person up andintroduce myself and then had
to do a public presentation tothe League of Women Voters, the
(33:17):
Illinois League of Women Voters.
Again, another time whereit was like very terrifying,
and I very much felt like,I don't know what I'm doing.
I'm not capable of this.
But was just kind of likeshoved into doing that.
And then found like, okay,I survived, I can do that.
And I really, I enjoytalking with people.
I enjoy givingpublic presentations.
That's a very long-windedanswer of how I came
(33:38):
to do these things.
Jesse Butts (33:39):
It's really fascinating.
Do you do some of theseas a way to build your
brand or, you know, makeyourself more attractive
as a potential employee toother organizations as you
move along in your career?
Amanda Kass (33:54):
Hmm, that's a good question.
I mean, definitely somewhat.
Like, I think one of thevaluable things that I
have, I think is thenetwork, the network
that I built in Illinois.
And I think some of thoseconnections though, are
like a two-way street,especially with reporters.
So I can provide analysis tothem or help answer a question,
(34:18):
but sometimes reporters canhelp me with, Hey, I saw this
news story that's referencingsome pending legislation, I
can't figure out what theactual bill number is.
Can you tell me what that is?
Or, Hey, read a storyabout this lawsuit, I
can't find a case number.
Like, can you tell mewhat the case number is?
And so I think, yes, it'sdefinitely something I
(34:38):
can market or is valuableabout myself, but I've
also found I really likecollaborating with journalists.
And I really like this, kindof relationship that scholars
can have with journalists aslike partnerships, not just
a kind of one way street, buta real kind of partnership.
Jesse Butts (34:54):
Earlier, you were mentioning since you
finished your dissertation,unlearning some things
or rediscovering hobbies.
I'm curious now, howwould you describe your
relationship to work?
How large of a role doesit play in your life?
Amanda Kass (35:11):
That's a really good question.
And, yeah, you, you kindalike pose this question, I
think in one of your otherinterviews and I've been
thinking about it since then.
And I still don'thave a good answer.
But I think, for me, itnot only was I finishing
the dissertation, but I wasfinishing the dissertation
(35:31):
during a pandemic.
And finishing the dissertationduring the pandemic and
working from home andworking really remotely.
And so I think, perhaps,with a lot of people, there's
a rethinking of like, Whatis my relationship to work
if I'm working from home?
And, I don't have a kind ofseparation between my home
(35:54):
life and my work life, right?
Like, it's easy to have yourjob, or your, or your work
kind of creep in and take over.
And I think it's reallyimportant, to the extent that
it's possible, right, thatwe, that we're kind of like
privileged to be in a positionthat we can have something
of a work-life balance toreally kind of maintain that.
Which is not agood answer at all.
(36:14):
I would say my work isinterests, but I also think it's
really important to kind of havemy identity not solely be my
career or not solely be my job.
Jesse Butts (36:27):
What questions should someone who's out of grad
school, and they're thinkingabout pursuing maybe another
master's or a PhD or some otheradvanced degree that differs
from what they studied before.
What, from your experience,were, were some of the questions
(36:48):
that helped you decide to gothat urban planning, excuse me,
urban planning and policy routeafter that geography experience?
Amanda Kass (36:57):
I think the first question is Why.
Why is someone doing it?
What's your goal?
What are you hopingto accomplish with it?
I think there's lots ofprofessional master's programs.
So I think for some peoplethere can be a kind of
real practicality of, Igot my undergrad in X and
I really want to pursue ajob as an urban planner.
And I've noticed that everyonewho does urban planning has
(37:21):
a master's in urban planning.
So I really need to get that.
I want to pivot my career.
And that's why I'm kindof pursuing a master's.
I think for PhD, I thinkthere's maybe a little less
like practicality, likecareer question, but I think
it's important to reflecton like, why ... Why do
you want to pursue this?
What are you hopingto get out of it?
And reflect on too some of theopportunity costs with going
(37:43):
back to grad school, right.
It can oftentimes be apause in your career.
It can have long lastingimpacts on your kind
of salary over time.
So I think reflecting onlike, Why are you going?
What's motivating you?
What are you hopingto get out of it?
And then I think verypractically for somebody who's
interested in a PhD is, Whatfinancial kind of resources
(38:05):
are going to be availableto you in your PhD program?
One of the key pieces ofadvice that I got as an
undergrad was, Don't go intoa PhD program if they're not
offering you financial support.
So if you're not going to be afunded PhD student in a program,
don't pursue that program.
Jesse Butts (38:23):
Were there any books or Ted talks or
anything that you, you sawor read as you were kind
of considering a differentfield of study that might
be helpful to somebody else?
Amanda Kass (38:38):
Sometimes I like to listen to the
podcast, How I Built This.
Jesse Butts (38:41):
The NPR one?
Amanda Kass (38:42):
Yeah, The NPR one.
Cause that often, like, I don'tknow that that like inspired
me or helped me, but I findthat like an interesting one.
You hear people kind of talkingabout how they built their
company and some of like thepitfalls that they went through
in their kind of trajectory.
Jesse Butts (38:59):
So I'd like to, to wrap up with which I'll
completely acknowledge isa pretty selfish question,
but as I've been listeningto you, I've been realizing
how ill-informed I am.
And how part of that is that itseems so hard to find sources
related to public financethat aren't hyper-partisan.
(39:20):
You know, t he headline is,They spent $13 per donut
at this whatever meeting.
So I'm curious, what advice doyou have, aside from following
the work that your organizationis doing, for people to get a
better understanding of whatrevenue is being collected,
and how it's being spent, andhow effective all of this is?
Amanda Kass (39:45):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Again, this is one ofthe challenges of...
with public finance.
Again, I think there'slike a really high
bar to kind of get in.
Unfortunately it's easyto sensationalize numbers.
So, I like your exampleof, Oh, they spent $12 per
donut at a meeting, right.
You can really likesensationalize that.
(40:06):
Using Illinois as an example,using Illinois' long-term debt
and saying, This debt equatesto $30,000 per resident.
And I think often times, peopledon't realize debt, it's a
long-term obligation, right.
It's something that's not goingto be paid off in one year.
So I think maybe one easytip or practical thing is,
(40:26):
If you're reading a newsstory and it's got like some
scary number in it, some bignumber, try and take a step
back and think of like, Whatis actually being discussed?
Is this a short-term, isthis something that actually
gets paid off in a year?
Or is it, again, if it's,talking about debt, these
are long-term obligations.
The other thing is, if peopleare interested, trying to get
(40:49):
involved in your local city oryour state's budget process.
Right.
So when the budget cycle ishappening, kind of trying to
get involved, seeing, like,what does the city council
do with the budget process?
What do they vote on?
What are the biggestsources of revenue?
And you can identify those,some through budget documents.
All cities and statesput out budget documents.
(41:12):
Ask your local representative,your city council member
like, I'm trying to understandthis; help me make sense?
Where do my property taxes go?
Where does my income tax go?
Help me understandwhere my money goes.
Jesse Butts (41:25):
All right.
Well, thank you, Amanda,for joining me on the show.
This was wonderful.
Amanda Kass (41:29):
And thanks for having me.
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting with AmandaKass, an MA in geography and
PhD in urban planning and policyturned public finance analyst.
Amanda is now the associatedirector of the Government
Finance Research Centerat the University of
Illinois at Chicago.
(00:45):
Amanda, welcome to the show.
Thanks for joining me.
Amanda Kass (00:47):
Hey, thanks so much for having me.
Jesse Butts (00:49):
Absolutely.
So before we dive into thepath from geography to urban
planning to public financingor to public finance, excuse
me, I'm wondering if you couldtell us a little bit about
what you're doing at UIC now.
What is the Government FinanceResearch Center's focus?
(01:09):
And how do you relate to that?
Amanda Kass (01:12):
Yeah.
So the center, the GovernmentFinance Research Center,
we were launched in 2018.
So we're still a relativelykind of new center.
And we're a research unitwithin UIC, within the
College of Urban Planning andPublic Affairs, specifically.
Um, and so our mission is toshape and inform public policy
and scholarly discourse ongovernment and public finance.
(01:34):
Kind of, I think what thatmeans is, we do exactly
what our name says.
We study and research,government finance.
And we kind of disseminate thatresearch, I think, in a variety
of mediums, because we're reallyinterested in shaping public
policy and public discourse.
So we write blogs, wewrite research papers,
we write academic papers.
We do interviews like this.
Jesse Butts (01:57):
You're kind of, or not kind of, you're
a non-partisan vehicle for,for people who are trying to
figure out what exactly isbeing spent and the efficacy of
that with public institutions?
Amanda Kass (02:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think, you know, for me, Icame into kind of public finance
from a non kind of linear path.
And so one of my interestshas long been like, How do I
explain to other people how toresearch public finance issues?
How do I explain to someoneor help them get tools to
be able to understand howtheir own community is
(02:34):
spending public dollars?
Jesse Butts (02:36):
Is this at all levels of government?
Or are you concentrated mostlyon like federal or state or
Chicago specifically or...?
Amanda Kass (02:45):
We're pretty focused on local governments,
not specific to Chicago, butI'd say local governments
within the United States.
Um, my kind of careerbackground is such that I also
kind of personally focus onthe state of Illinois, city
of Chicago, and other localgovernments in Illinois.
Jesse Butts (03:03):
Great.
So now that we have abetter understanding of what
you're doing and what theorganization is all about,
can you tell us a little bitabout why you decided to go
to grad school for geography?
What made you want to gobeyond your undergrad studies?
Amanda Kass (03:23):
It's nice to, I don't know, I guess
reflect on that a little bit.
So, I, when I went toundergrad, when I started
undergrad, I actually hada really strong interest in
international developmentand international studies.
So I started out as aninternational studies major
and I thought that I would goon to do international work,
international developmentwork, but kind of found
(03:46):
that I wasn't totallyinterested in, in doing that.
And was, you know, like manyundergrads kind of thinking
like, What else do I do?
And a friend at the timesaid, Hey, you should take
a geographic informationsystem, a GIS class.
Like GIS is somesoftware you can learn.
(04:06):
It's a practical skill.
It'll open up a lotof doors to you.
And so that's, that was kind ofmy introduction to geography.
And then I took someother classes within the
geography department,specifically, a class that
was about development.
But it started with kind of aphilosophical question of, of
kind of, What is development?
And introduced me tokind of social theory.
(04:29):
And I just loved that class.
And that's, that's what setme on the path for geography.
And I worked reallyclosely with the professor
who taught that class.
And I did anundergraduate thesis.
And he really encouragedme to kind of go on in and
pursue an academic route.
And then I should say toomy, both my dad and my
(04:51):
brother work in academia.
So it, this was kind of likea known career path for me.
Jesse Butts (04:58):
of us, and I'm definitely including myself
in this, who really aren'tthat familiar with what one
studies in, in a geographyprogram, undergrad or graduate,
what kind of, of courses,or emphases or, or focuses
can you study in geography?
Amanda Kass (05:18):
Yeah.
I think geography is a reallygreat discipline that has a
lot of sub specialties in it.
So let's say, if you're reallypassionate about climate change
and issues of climate change,there's physical geography
is one of the branches.
I got to take a classwith one of the kind of
world premiere people onclimatology, who did ice
(05:41):
core samples as an undergrad.
There's also human geography.
So if you're kind ofinterested in societal
questions around, let's saycapitalism or the labor market.
Like, how does U.S.
consumption impactinternational issues?
You can study that in geography.
And then there's also the kindof spatial science aspect.
(06:04):
Like I said, doing geographicinformation systems.
That I think of as kind ofmore applied route with a lot
of kind of technical skills.
So geography is a really big,I think, umbrella with a lot
of really interesting branchesor sub-disciplines to it.
Jesse Butts (06:19):
And you were taking initially that more...
Is it GIS?
That's an acronym for that
Amanda Kass (06:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
GIS.
Yep.
Jesse Butts (06:29):
Okay.
And what are you, what areyou doing in that software
exactly, or broadly?
Maybe not exactly as theright way to phrase that.
Amanda Kass (06:37):
I, the way I use it is I think of it like a tool.
Like I think of Excelor I think of R.
And it's a tool fordoing spatial analysis
and for map making.
So, let's say I wannamake a map of all of the
municipalities that arein Cook County, Illinois.
(06:59):
My interest is inpopulation growth.
So I want to be able tovisually see which communities
have seen their populationsgrow and which ones have seen
their populations shrink.
That's something Ican do in Arc GIS.
Jesse Butts (07:14):
Is this also like if there were...
Perhaps some like proposed,I don't know, shopping center
or factory, is this type ofsoftware you'd use to determine
like, you know, how big itcould be or how it would fit
or that type of thing as well?
Amanda Kass (07:27):
Yeah, for sure.
There's a lot you cando in GIS software.
Think of it, like you canput in a lot of different
layers and analyze thoselayers all at once.
So let's say you, you'reconsidering lots of different
sites for, you said a mall ora development, and you want
to take into considerationtransportation, environmental
(07:49):
impact, nearby population,other businesses that might
feed into this new business.
You could layer all of thatin GIS and use kind of some of
the analysis tools to refinethe location and kind of narrow
it down from, let's say areally big pool of locations
to more specified ones.
Jesse Butts (08:10):
Got it.
So, when you started yourmaster's and you were working
through that program, youentered with this kind of, I
don't want to say GIS focus, butmaybe the route surrounding that
was what you were interested in.
Did that change or evolveas you, you engaged
more with the field?
Amanda Kass (08:30):
I would say I have kind of, um, I had dual
parts to myself at that time.
So the GIS part was, Ithink, rooted in a more
kind of practicalityof, I need job skills.
Cause I graduated undergradin 2008 when the financial
crisis was happening, right.
So that was reallyformative to me.
And I really thought aboutwhat kind of jobs can I get?
(08:55):
And I felt a real importanceof like having skills
that could land me jobs.
But then the other part of mewas, was really academically
inclined and reallyinterested in social theory.
Kind of critiquesabout capitalism.
Um, and that was the kind ofside that I was pursuing when I
(09:15):
went to do the master's program.
It was not kind of GIS,rooted or practical at all.
It was really rooted in thesekinds of questions about
international developmentand a kind of capitalism.
Jesse Butts (09:27):
I'm sorry.
I misunderstood that.
As you were in your programand you are finishing
up, did your interest ininternational development,
the, you know, critiques andquestions about capitalism.
Did that intensify?
Or were you leaving with kindof a different perspective
than what you started?
Amanda Kass (09:45):
Yeah, it's I think I got kind of burnt
out in the master's programto be totally candid.
So, again, I went there when Istarted the master's program,
I thought I would continueon into the PhD program.
So I, I kind of viewthe master's as like a
stepping stone to the PhD.
And again, at thattime I was doing more
(10:05):
kind of internationallyfocused research.
My thesis for my masters wasabout the post earthquake
reconstruction efforts in Haiti.
I went to Haiti for justabout a week, and kind
of And I was particularlyinterested in the kind of
outpouring of internationalaid and particularly U.S.
(10:26):
aid that was pledged tothe reconstruction efforts.
And I was really interestedin like, Where does
that money actually go?
And then this, this kindof brought up like lots of
ethical questions for me oflike, essentially, like, What
am I doing with this thesis?
Or would this work tokind of actually make
the world a better place?
And I just kind of felt likewhat I was pursuing was not,
(10:49):
not what I wanted to do.
But I didn't really knowwhat I wanted to do.
But I just knew that thepath that I was on, wasn't
what I wanted to keep doing.
Jesse Butts (10:58):
And just, just timeframe wise, you finished
your master's in 2011.
Am I remembering that correctly?
Amanda Kass (11:04):
Yep.
Jesse Butts (11:05):
I know probably technically we were out of The
Great Recession, but you know,as far as I can recall, it
still felt like we were in thethroes or the aftershock of it.
But what did you end updoing after you, you finished
your master's and knew thatyou didn't want to pursue
the PhD in geography?
Amanda Kass (11:22):
It's kind of a funny story.
So I finished up my master'sat the same time that my now
husband was finishing up hisundergrad, and he was moving
to Chicago for graduate school.
So I moved, moved toChicago with him and
didn't really have a plan.
I spent the first summer that wewere there writing my master's
(11:44):
thesis up and just applying toevery and any job that I could.
Because I had these GISskills that I developed
as an undergrad, I appliedto kind of anything
that had to do with GIS.
I just applied to stuff thathad to do with public policy.
Initially, I workedat a retail store.
I worked at Banana Republic whenwe first moved there because
(12:07):
I really had, I had no idea,you know, like, what's next?
What do I want to do?
But I need a job.
Jesse Butts (12:13):
First I want to say that a summer in
Chicago, not knowing whatto do is a pretty good place
to be and good time of year.
For anybody considering Chicago.
But, um, that plug aside.
So how long were you workingat Banana Republic or, or
sorting things out beforeyou landed on, you know,
(12:33):
work that was more alignedto, to what you were doing?
Or is that when you wereseriously considering
an urban policy PhD?
Amanda Kass (12:40):
No, I wasn't.
So when I came toChicago, I kind of knew.
I had an interest in likesome day maybe I'll, I'll
go back and pursue a PhD.
There's no geographyPhD programs in Chicago.
So I was kinda like, Idon't know what's next.
I heard about the Urban Planningand Policy Program at UIC and
(13:02):
thought of that as kind ofmost aligned with my interests.
And actually CUPPA the collegehas a job's board, just an
online kind of list of jobs.
And I actually went to thatand, and looked at jobs on
there and applied to the jobthat I got, which was as a
researcher for the Center forTax and Budget Accountability.
(13:23):
And I have like no ideawhat was going on in my
brain that made me think Iwas qualified for the job.
Because I'm like, wasn't,it was for a position
researching Illinois'public pension systems.
I didn't have a backgroundin fiscal policy or
public finance at all.
(13:44):
I didn't know anythingabout Illinois' politics.
Like I'd heard of who RodBlagojevich was but didn't
know anything past that.
Had no awareness thatpublic pensions in Illinois
were underfunded or whata huge issue this was.
Like just no idea what Iwas getting myself into.
But like, there's something inmy brain that was like, Oh, like
I was interested in money whenit came to the reconstruction,
(14:07):
reconstruction efforts in Haiti,this has to do with money.
This seems like an interestingorganization, I'll apply for it.
I'm lucky that I got itand it ended up being a
really great fit for me.
But I still, you know, I I'mlike, I don't know what was
going on in my brain thought,I thought that I could do this.
Jesse Butts (14:27):
I think this is a really interesting point though,
is that we often feel thatwe're not qualified or we're
far from the ideal candidate.
And we let that hinder us.
But it can be taking thesechances like these that
changed the trajectory ofour careers and our lives.
Amanda Kass (14:44):
Oh, Yeah.
And it totally the other,like, I don't know.
I think like funny thing thatI think back on is, I had
long said, like, I wasn'tinterested in doing applied
work or public policy work.
And then here I was aftermy master's degree, like
gravitating towards jobsthat have direct kind
of public policy work.
(15:05):
Or like that's really thespace that the work that
I've been doing is in.
And so, yeah, it was likenot only a job that was not
quite aligned with my academictraining, but also kind of
in a field that I had longthought is like, oh, not for me.
Jesse Butts (15:21):
So what led to that mind shift change?
Amanda Kass (15:25):
That's such a good question.
I wish I could like putmyself back in where I was at.
Like, I guess it waslike almost 10 years ago.
I think at the time I wasjust applying to like any and
all jobs that I thought I wasremotely qualified for and that,
and that seemed interesting.
And I was fortunate that thejob that I got at the Center for
Tax and Budget Accountabilitywas one that I really loved and,
(15:48):
and I think through that job,learned how much I really do
like having a foot and kind ofthe quote unquote, real world,
of impacting policy or beingable to weigh in on contemporary
policy political issues.
And so it was really likethrough that job experience,
I think, that I uncovered thatwhat I'm really interested in.
Jesse Butts (16:11):
And was that the job prior to applying
to PhD programs andgoing that route or...?
Amanda Kass (16:19):
Yeah, it was.
So I worked at CTBA forseveral years before I
applied to the PhD program.
And then when I started thePhD program, worked there
part-time for a while.
Jesse Butts (16:32):
As you entered the urban planning
program, is public financetypically a concentration?
Or was this kind of anotherscenario of finding something
a little tangential and thenkind of making it your own?
Amanda Kass (16:49):
I think it's definitely for
me was a little...
the latter.
Finding something that'sa little tangential and
like making it my own.
Again, when I first moved toChicago, I had heard about CUPPA
and part of why I'd heard aboutit is the person who became
my advisor, Brenda Parker, herPhD is actually in geography.
So the urban planning andpolicy program was long on
(17:10):
my radar as like the mostgeograpyish program in Chicago.
And then there's scholarslike Rachel Weber and Phil
Ashton that their, their workisn't kind of public finance,
but it's public finance ish.
So Rachel Weber asks a lotof questions about kind
(17:33):
of economic development.
She does a lot of work aroundtax increment financing.
And so I thought that theprogram was a really good
fit with my interests.
And then, I've kind of startedbuilding up this career doing
public finance, and I wanted tokeep that, I guess, that, that
kind of career door path going.
(17:53):
So I kept workingthroughout the PhD program.
Jesse Butts (17:57):
And there are just a couple terms you
mentioned that I want tomake sure that we understand.
So CUPPA, what is that?
Amanda Kass (18:04):
Oh, CUPPA is the, let me make sure
I get the acronym right.
It's the College of UrbanPlanning and Public Affairs.
So it's, the college atUIC that I did my PhD in
and that I still work at.
And so the college hastwo different departments.
One is the public administrationdepartment and the other is
(18:25):
the urban planning and policy.
And so public financetypically falls more in
public administrationdepartments than urban planning
and policy departments.
Jesse Butts (18:35):
And you mentioned, I actually can't
recall the definition.
I just know the acronym, TIF.
I know kind of what it is.
It has to do something withcertain areas can spend
taxes in certain ways.
But maybe you could give usa real definition of that.
Amanda Kass (18:54):
Uh, TIF is such a thorny, thorny, thorny topic.
So TIF stands for taxincrement financing.
And so it's, it's an economicdevelopment tool, basically.
So what happens is an areagets designated a TIF district.
And so then all the propertiesthat are in that district, all
(19:16):
the properties within the TIFdistrict, then any growth that
is in their property value,the taxes from the growth and
the property values is used tofinance development projects
within that TIF district.
Jesse Butts (19:30):
Let's just use Chicago as an example.
If Navy Pier expanded,and that brought lot
of growth and revenue.
Instead of that going back toall of Chicago or for, know,
the mayor's office to figureout how that spent that district
(19:51):
instead gets to decide where,in its purview, that's spent,
versus the whole city saying,Oh, we got a little extra money.
We can apply it in thisneighborhood five miles away.
Amanda Kass (20:02):
Yeah, that's roughly how it works.
And part of the argumentis that that extra money
wouldn't have happenedbut for the development.
And so, but for this TIFdistrict, you wouldn't
have had that extra money.
And the actual kind of mechanicsare a little more complicated.
I actually wrote, I think anexplainer about TIFs with Daniel
(20:24):
Kay Hertz a couple of years ago.
And I think it's on my websiteor it's on his website if
people are listening to thisand like scratching their
heads, like what's a TIF?
Jesse Butts (20:35):
TIF and some of these other things, these are
the kinds of things you'reinterested in studying.
These implications of how howtax revenue is collected and
how it's spent ...Are thesethe things that you're diving
into more in both your PhDprogram and the job that you
maintained during that time?
Amanda Kass (20:56):
Yeah, definitely.
And I think some of ittoo was, was a desire to
provide information andexplanations to people.
So I think public finance isoften highly technical, somewhat
arcane, and there's like ahigh barrier to be able to
kind of enter the conversationin and discuss about it.
(21:17):
TIF is a good example of,I think, there's a lot
of politics around TIF.
But there's also often a lotof, kind of confusion about
the actual mechanics of TIF.
How does it work?
What does it do?
Jesse Butts (21:30):
As you are in your PhD program and you're
simultaneously working fulltime, what are you thinking
as you get close to yourdissertation or start working
on it as to what you want to doafter you finish the program?
Amanda Kass (21:48):
That's uh, that's a good question.
Again, as somebody whograduated undergrad in the
last financial crisis, thatwas really formative to me.
And also seeing thekind of massive changes
I think in higher ed.
So as a PhD student and somebodyin the PhD program, right, like
(22:10):
you're kind of trained that theend goal is an academic job.
That the end goal is to get atenure track position at a R1,
you know, research institution.
But those jobs are very,very few and far between.
So I kind of, again, have thismindset of like, I want to
keep a foot in a world outsideof academia to kind of try
(22:34):
and keep the maximum numberof career op the doors open.
And I was really fortunate thatthe center that I'm currently
at launched in 2018, whichis around the time I think
that I started, I think Ipassed my qualifying exams.
I was like all butdissertation at that point.
(22:55):
And so I got the positionas the associate director.
And kind of helped launchthe center with the founding
director who is also theDean at the college of CUPPA.
And, I'll be like candid oflike I haven't really thought
much past my current position.
I'm fortunate thatI love this job.
We have a new director,Deborah Carroll, who
(23:15):
started this past summer.
Who's amazing.
I love working with her.
We've got some reallyinteresting research projects
that we've got going on.
So I've been fortunate though.
Like, I don't really need tothink past my current job.
Jesse Butts (23:28):
Nice.
And just to, to clarify.
So you finished yourdissertation while working
at your current job?
Amanda Kass (23:36):
Yes.
Which I don't, if anybody'sinterested in doing a
PhD, I don't totallyrecommend doing that...
Jesse Butts (23:43):
So just a very practical question.
You were working andgoing to school full time.
You finished yourdissertation while you're
at your full-time job.
What is it like now nothaving an academic obligation
over you as you're working?
Amanda Kass (23:59):
Oh, gosh.
It's interesting.
It took...
So, when I was working onthe dissertation, writing
it, I would start writingat like 5.30 in the morning.
And spend a couple hourswriting and then switch over
to doing my full-time job.
And during that phaseof like getting the
dissertation done, there'sno work-life balance at all.
It was kind of like workwas all consuming.
(24:22):
And luckily my dissertationand PhD interests somewhat
align or overlap a littlebit with my work interests.
So it wasn't like I was intwo totally different worlds.
But now that I'm done withthe dissertation, it's
been a little bit of...
unlearning.
Like learning or relearninghow to have a life outside
(24:44):
of being a PhD studentand a full-time employee.
So like trying torediscover hobbies and
what to do with free time.
Jesse Butts (24:51):
Are you still like waking up at 5.30 out
of habit or have you...?
Amanda Kass (24:55):
No.
Oh my gosh.
No.
But it took, it took a littlewhile to like undo that, right.
And, and like undo thisfeeling of like, Oh, I have
to be, I have to be likewaking up early and being
quote unquote productive.
And if I'm not being quote,unquote productive, then
I'm doing something wrong.
Jesse Butts (25:14):
So reflecting back a little bit, are there any
other areas from your study,from your master's program
that you see a relationshipto your current work?
Like any skills orjust any of the topics
that you were studying?
Amanda Kass (25:30):
Yeah.
I think, some of the skillsthat I developed as an undergrad
is thinking critically.
So, taking a step backand, and trying to see a
bigger picture or, engagekind of like critically
with the question beforejust like jumping into it.
I think the other big thing Igot, especially from the GIS
work was around data managementand data organization.
(25:54):
So I think that's like oneof my plugs for why people
should do GIS classes.
In addition to learning how todo geographic information system
work and learning that software,you develop really good, at
least for me, you developreally good habits for how you
organize and manage your data.
And not just data, butlike any documents.
(26:15):
Like how do youorganize Word documents?
How do you deal withversion control?
That's super, I think, practicaland helpful and a skill
that you develop that can beapplicable to kind of any job.
Jesse Butts (26:27):
What did, what did you have to learn about yourself
to find work that would fit you?
Especially, rulingout academic careers?
Amanda Kass (26:37):
I wouldn't say I ruled it out.
I think what I would say iswhat I, what I did rule out
is viewing that as the onlypath and the only marker of
success or a good career.
And I think what I had to learnabout myself, I think what
I had to learn in general isthat, is that there's lots of
(26:57):
other types of jobs and there'sother work that is fulfilling.
So, you know, one thingthat I learned again is
like, I really liked thiskind of more applied side.
I liked the side of doing publicpolicy work that was more in the
short term or in the immediacy.
So as an example, Illinois,the state of Illinois in the
(27:18):
state General Assembly, isworking on crafting the budget
for the upcoming fiscal year,which will be fiscal year 2023.
And what I really enjoy duringbudget season is being able
to read the proposed budget.
I get asked by reportersto kind of weigh in of,
you know, the governor putforward his budget proposal.
What do you think about it?
(27:39):
How's the state ofIllinois' fiscal situation?
Is it improving?
Is it declining?
And I really like tobe being able to engage
in that kind of work.
And I the nature of academicwork is often so longterm.
So for example, I just gotan article finally knock on
wood published, and it tooktwo years from the first
(28:01):
submission of the articlefor that to get published.
And that's not evencounting the kind of data
collection and analysis time.
So a two year processfor one article.
So I guess what I had to learna little bit about myself
too, was it was that I like...
I don't like working onjust a very long term
timeline for projects.
I like the mix ofshort- and long-term.
(28:24):
I don't know if thatmakes any sense.
Jesse Butts (28:26):
I think, I think it absolutely does.
I'm wondering if we couldprovide a little context for
listeners outside of Illinois.
When you talk about planning forthe state budget and that work.
Was it three, fouryears that Illinois
went without any budget?
I mean, just, if you could givea little context to why this is
such a bigger deal in Illinoisthan a lot of other states.
Amanda Kass (28:49):
Yeah.
So the, I mean, there are budgetbattles in every state, and
every state has its own kindof like fiscal year cycle.
And in some places they havetwo year budgets, not an
annual budget like Illinois.
But yeah, it's gosh,long been contentious.
I think since I've beenworking on Illinois finances,
(29:09):
which is since 2011, I thinkit's always been contentious.
It kind of reached a peak duringthe last governor's tenure.
So during GovernorRauner's tenure.
Governor Raunerwas a Republican.
There was a Democratic ledGeneral Assembly, both in
the House and the Senate.
And it was like aloggerhead over the budget.
(29:32):
And so the state didn'thave a budget, a formal
budget for two fiscal years.
Again, this is why, I likereally like public finance
and love what I do is thateven saying that there was
no budget for two years,isn't totally correct.
There's many aspects of the kindof state's functions that are
on autopilot and that it doesn'trequire the General Assembly and
(29:55):
governor to sign off on a budgetfor spending to be occurring.
And the General Assemblypassed funding for K
through 12 education.
And the governor signedthat into law, which is
one of the biggest chunksfor the state budget.
So, there was an impasse overthe budget for two years, but
not kind of all aspects of thestate's finances were affected.
(30:16):
And not all aspects of societykind of felt the consequences
of the budget crisis.
Jesse Butts (30:22):
You mentioned that you love your job.
For you, howimportant is job fit?
Do you need to finda job that you love?
Or is it kind of serendipitousfor you that you have?
Amanda Kass (30:33):
For me, it's huge to find a job that I love.
And it's not just aboutthe work that I do.
It's also the people that Iwork with, which is one of
the reasons I really love UIC.
And I really love CUPPA.
And so it's been a really,it's been a really great fit
of, I feel like I'm doingmeaningful work and I'm
getting to do that with peopleI really enjoy working with.
Jesse Butts (30:55):
With your job, obviously what you do
is, is very public facing.
And I don't know if it's astep above and beyond, or
part of the job, but, I mean,your writing has appeared
in, in Chicago Magazine,Crain's Business Chicago.
I've seen you on uh, ChicagoTonight, which is a show
on WTTW, which is Chicago'sPBS affiliate affiliate.
(31:19):
How did, did you start all that?
And how does that fitinto the job for you?
Is, is that an expectationof your role or is that
just, I mean, your passion?
Amanda Kass (31:28):
Yeah.
I think that's, that's, I don'tknow, nice of you to ask and
somewhat nice to reflect on.
I don't, it's definitelynot a requirement of
the job, I don't think.
I think it's, again, whenyou were talking about, you
know, What kind of like led medown the path, or what did I
have to uncover about myself?
That's something also thatI discovered is that I like,
I personally like havingthat public facing role.
(31:50):
I, I find it both liketerrifying to go on live
TV and live radio, but alsoreally like exciting and, uh, a
real, like, I dunno, a feelingof accomplishment after it.
And also like a, just a senseof like, you know, I watched
Chicago Tonight for a long time.
And it felt like, well,I can be on there.
Like I knew stuff aboutIllinois' finances.
(32:11):
I know stuff aboutChicago's finances.
I can speak to these issues.
And the way that I got intoit actually was from the
first job I had in Chicagoat the Center for Tax and
Budget Accountability.
I worked with somebodythere who unfortunately
has since passed away.
Her name was Kathy Miller.
And I first get into this joband she's like, Amanda, you
(32:33):
need, you need to introduceyourself to this reporter.
You're now the personwho studies pension.
This person has apension question.
You need to call them upand you need to introduce
yourself to them.
And I was terrified of doingthat, and very resistant.
It was like, no, no, no.
I'm a researcher.
I want to sit in mylittle corner over here
(32:55):
and sit on my computerand crunch these numbers.
I don't want to call anyone.
No.
But I was also, you know, newto a job, new to this career.
And it was just like, Idon't, I don't know, I
guess I have to do this.
And call that person up andintroduce myself and then had
to do a public presentation tothe League of Women Voters, the
(33:17):
Illinois League of Women Voters.
Again, another time whereit was like very terrifying,
and I very much felt like,I don't know what I'm doing.
I'm not capable of this.
But was just kind of likeshoved into doing that.
And then found like, okay,I survived, I can do that.
And I really, I enjoytalking with people.
I enjoy givingpublic presentations.
That's a very long-windedanswer of how I came
(33:38):
to do these things.
Jesse Butts (33:39):
It's really fascinating.
Do you do some of theseas a way to build your
brand or, you know, makeyourself more attractive
as a potential employee toother organizations as you
move along in your career?
Amanda Kass (33:54):
Hmm, that's a good question.
I mean, definitely somewhat.
Like, I think one of thevaluable things that I
have, I think is thenetwork, the network
that I built in Illinois.
And I think some of thoseconnections though, are
like a two-way street,especially with reporters.
So I can provide analysis tothem or help answer a question,
(34:18):
but sometimes reporters canhelp me with, Hey, I saw this
news story that's referencingsome pending legislation, I
can't figure out what theactual bill number is.
Can you tell me what that is?
Or, Hey, read a storyabout this lawsuit, I
can't find a case number.
Like, can you tell mewhat the case number is?
And so I think, yes, it'sdefinitely something I
(34:38):
can market or is valuableabout myself, but I've
also found I really likecollaborating with journalists.
And I really like this, kindof relationship that scholars
can have with journalists aslike partnerships, not just
a kind of one way street, buta real kind of partnership.
Jesse Butts (34:54):
Earlier, you were mentioning since you
finished your dissertation,unlearning some things
or rediscovering hobbies.
I'm curious now, howwould you describe your
relationship to work?
How large of a role doesit play in your life?
Amanda Kass (35:11):
That's a really good question.
And, yeah, you, you kindalike pose this question, I
think in one of your otherinterviews and I've been
thinking about it since then.
And I still don'thave a good answer.
But I think, for me, itnot only was I finishing
the dissertation, but I wasfinishing the dissertation
(35:31):
during a pandemic.
And finishing the dissertationduring the pandemic and
working from home andworking really remotely.
And so I think, perhaps,with a lot of people, there's
a rethinking of like, Whatis my relationship to work
if I'm working from home?
And, I don't have a kind ofseparation between my home
(35:54):
life and my work life, right?
Like, it's easy to have yourjob, or your, or your work
kind of creep in and take over.
And I think it's reallyimportant, to the extent that
it's possible, right, thatwe, that we're kind of like
privileged to be in a positionthat we can have something
of a work-life balance toreally kind of maintain that.
Which is not agood answer at all.
(36:14):
I would say my work isinterests, but I also think it's
really important to kind of havemy identity not solely be my
career or not solely be my job.
Jesse Butts (36:27):
What questions should someone who's out of grad
school, and they're thinkingabout pursuing maybe another
master's or a PhD or some otheradvanced degree that differs
from what they studied before.
What, from your experience,were, were some of the questions
(36:48):
that helped you decide to gothat urban planning, excuse me,
urban planning and policy routeafter that geography experience?
Amanda Kass (36:57):
I think the first question is Why.
Why is someone doing it?
What's your goal?
What are you hopingto accomplish with it?
I think there's lots ofprofessional master's programs.
So I think for some peoplethere can be a kind of
real practicality of, Igot my undergrad in X and
I really want to pursue ajob as an urban planner.
And I've noticed that everyonewho does urban planning has
(37:21):
a master's in urban planning.
So I really need to get that.
I want to pivot my career.
And that's why I'm kindof pursuing a master's.
I think for PhD, I thinkthere's maybe a little less
like practicality, likecareer question, but I think
it's important to reflecton like, why ... Why do
you want to pursue this?
What are you hopingto get out of it?
And reflect on too some of theopportunity costs with going
(37:43):
back to grad school, right.
It can oftentimes be apause in your career.
It can have long lastingimpacts on your kind
of salary over time.
So I think reflecting onlike, Why are you going?
What's motivating you?
What are you hopingto get out of it?
And then I think verypractically for somebody who's
interested in a PhD is, Whatfinancial kind of resources
(38:05):
are going to be availableto you in your PhD program?
One of the key pieces ofadvice that I got as an
undergrad was, Don't go intoa PhD program if they're not
offering you financial support.
So if you're not going to be afunded PhD student in a program,
don't pursue that program.
Jesse Butts (38:23):
Were there any books or Ted talks or
anything that you, you sawor read as you were kind
of considering a differentfield of study that might
be helpful to somebody else?
Amanda Kass (38:38):
Sometimes I like to listen to the
podcast, How I Built This.
Jesse Butts (38:41):
The NPR one?
Amanda Kass (38:42):
Yeah, The NPR one.
Cause that often, like, I don'tknow that that like inspired
me or helped me, but I findthat like an interesting one.
You hear people kind of talkingabout how they built their
company and some of like thepitfalls that they went through
in their kind of trajectory.
Jesse Butts (38:59):
So I'd like to, to wrap up with which I'll
completely acknowledge isa pretty selfish question,
but as I've been listeningto you, I've been realizing
how ill-informed I am.
And how part of that is that itseems so hard to find sources
related to public financethat aren't hyper-partisan.
(39:20):
You know, t he headline is,They spent $13 per donut
at this whatever meeting.
So I'm curious, what advice doyou have, aside from following
the work that your organizationis doing, for people to get a
better understanding of whatrevenue is being collected,
and how it's being spent, andhow effective all of this is?
Amanda Kass (39:45):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Again, this is one ofthe challenges of...
with public finance.
Again, I think there'slike a really high
bar to kind of get in.
Unfortunately it's easyto sensationalize numbers.
So, I like your exampleof, Oh, they spent $12 per
donut at a meeting, right.
You can really likesensationalize that.
(40:06):
Using Illinois as an example,using Illinois' long-term debt
and saying, This debt equatesto $30,000 per resident.
And I think often times, peopledon't realize debt, it's a
long-term obligation, right.
It's something that's not goingto be paid off in one year.
So I think maybe one easytip or practical thing is,
(40:26):
If you're reading a newsstory and it's got like some
scary number in it, some bignumber, try and take a step
back and think of like, Whatis actually being discussed?
Is this a short-term, isthis something that actually
gets paid off in a year?
Or is it, again, if it's,talking about debt, these
are long-term obligations.
The other thing is, if peopleare interested, trying to get
(40:49):
involved in your local city oryour state's budget process.
Right.
So when the budget cycle ishappening, kind of trying to
get involved, seeing, like,what does the city council
do with the budget process?
What do they vote on?
What are the biggestsources of revenue?
And you can identify those,some through budget documents.
All cities and statesput out budget documents.
(41:12):
Ask your local representative,your city council member
like, I'm trying to understandthis; help me make sense?
Where do my property taxes go?
Where does my income tax go?
Help me understandwhere my money goes.
Jesse Butts (41:25):
All right.
Well, thank you, Amanda,for joining me on the show.
This was wonderful.
Amanda Kass (41:29):
And thanks for having me.
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