May 18, 2022 • 36 mins
A self-described “case study in never deciding what I wanted to be when I grew up,” David found himself working in counseling before and after completing his MA in religion. It wasn’t the right fit, but at the time, he couldn’t quite articulate the underlying reasons why.
Then four years after grad school, his career moved in mysterious ways. The state changed its professional licensure requirements for counseling, meaning David could either pursue a second master’s in a field that he had no passion for or look elsewhere for employment.
Instead of starting with what existing skills he could transfer to a new job, he contemplated where an introvert like him could flourish. A little freelancing and a web development certification later, he began a career in software development that has grown into management.
Had David not put in the work of self-discovery that culminated in an introversion epiphany, he might not have found a career that suits his personality and strengths.
Books & other resources mentioned
Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking by Susan Cain
Where to find David’s freelance and non-work writing
Unobtrusive Lucidity — David’s thoughts on faith, art, and culture
Check out more from The Work Seminar
Visit theworkseminar.com or find @TheWorkSeminar on social media.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesse Butts (00:25):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting with DavidBrown, an MA in religion turned
software development manager.
Dave is now a technicalarchitect and manager.
Dave, welcome.
Delighted to haveyou on the show.
David Brown (00:41):
Hi, Jesse.
Great.
Thank you for having me.
Jesse Butts (00:43):
Absolutely.
So I think this will be avery interesting conversation.
We haven't had anyone yet whohas gone from a religion to, or
a master's in religion, excuseme, to software development or
software development management.
But before we dive intothat, can we just start with
a bit about your day to day?
(01:03):
What are you doing as asoftware development manager?
What does that entail exactly?
David Brown (01:08):
So I lead a team of developers and my
job isn't so much being inthe code day-to-day anymore.
It used to be.
I don't want so muchto do that anymore.
I'm more responsible foroverseeing projects, deciding
how some complex problemsare going to be tackled and
(01:31):
built, how the solution isgoing to be architected.
So that involves a lot moreinterfacing with clients
and, you know, helpingdevelopers decide how
they're going to approacha problem or a solution.
And being a littlemore hands-off.
I do a lot of reviewing otherdevelopers code, making sure
(01:52):
that best practices are followedand those sorts of things.
So that's, that's a lot ofwhat my day-to-day looks like.
Jesse Butts (01:59):
So is a lot of that also deciding, or excuse
me, deciding which developerwill work on which aspect
of whatever you happen tobe developing at that time?
David Brown (02:09):
Sure.
That's some of it.
Yeah.
And also if there are multipleapproaches to something, part
of my responsibility is havingthat high level view of being
able to see because of theseother things that are going
on over here that maybe thisdeveloper doesn't know about,
this solution is better thanthat solution as far as a
(02:30):
way to tackle this problem.
And so we should, we should leanthis way instead of that way.
So a lot of my job is beingable to have a holistic view of
the entire project rather thanbeing in the minutia of all of
the details from day-to-day.
Jesse Butts (02:46):
So now that we have a pretty good understanding
of what you're doing now, I'mwondering if we could step
back in time a little bit.
I am curious what, whatprompted you to enroll in
grad school originally?
Why did you want to continueyour studies after undergrad?
David Brown (03:03):
So it's funny.
So I, I am a case study inthe person who could never
decide what they wantedto be when they grew up.
If I go back even furtherthan that and look at my
undergrad, I started myundergrad as a music major.
And then I went from musicto being an education major.
And then I actually droppedout altogether for a semester
(03:25):
and tried to figure out life.
And then I went back asa communications major.
And then I declaredtheater as a second major.
And when the dust hassettled and everything was
done, I came out with acommunications major and a
psychology minor of all things.
So, I was always in thissort of state of flux.
(03:45):
I was interested inall these things and I
loved being creative andstudying all these things.
And then I came out ofmy undergrad and actually
went into a career as acounselor, believe it or not.
And that was how, thatwas how I made my living
for several years.
(04:06):
And then, I think I, Ijust wanted a change.
I wanted a bit ofa break from that.
My decision to study religionor theology at a graduate level
was very much just, I wanted toexplore my faith at an academic
level, and dive into that andreally understand it better.
Jesse Butts (04:25):
Just to clarify, so you were a counselor before
you started graduate school?
Okay.
That's, that's interesting.
I, I, at least I'm not awareof and I'm not certain about
my listeners, but what typeof counselor positions are
available to people who don'thave an advanced degree?
David Brown (04:42):
Yeah, counselor is a broad term.
I'm using counselor ina very broad term there.
So I did things likecase management.
I did crisis interventions.
I did those sorts of things.
I wasn't, you know, thetherapist that was meeting
with clients one-on-one inthe office during that time.
I was definitely alevel under that.
Because all of thosepositions, the licensure for
(05:04):
all those positions requiregraduate degrees, which I
didn't have at the time.
I'm using counselor and abroad term there because I
was definitely a level underwhat you would generally
think of as counselor.
Jesse Butts (05:15):
Got it.
So when you started grad school,were you working during grad
school, as you were exploringthe academic side of your faith?
Were you a full-timegrad student?
What was that like?
David Brown (05:27):
It was crazy.
I was a full-time student.
I did work also.
I did some work in the samefields, in mental health
on, sort of on the side.
I also worked in some ministrysettings on the side, in
some pastoral positions.
And, and that was great becauseit really allowed me to explore
that and decide what am I doingwith these graduate studies?
(05:52):
Is this something that Iwant to do vocationally?
Is it just sort of scratchingmy own itch, learning,
learning these thingsthat I wanted to learn?
What is that?
And there, there weredefinitely things that I
loved about it, about workingin ministry professionally.
And there were definitelysome things that I didn't.
And so I was sort of doing allof that ,and it was good because
(06:15):
it, it informed my study.
Any time you...
I think any discipline, whenyou study it ... it's really
hard to study it in theabstract without knowing how
it's put into practice, right?
I think it was a goodthing in the sense that
it informed my study.
I did lots of, of workwhile being a student full
time, which probably was nothealthy in the long-term.
(06:37):
The was way too muchcaffeine involved in that.
And too many late nights.
But that's what I did.
Jesse Butts (06:44):
If somebody is interested in going
into the ministry or...
do they typically studyan MA in religion or is
it a master's in divinity?
Is the MA in religionintended to be a bit broader?
David Brown (06:58):
It's sort of tiers if that makes sense.
So an MA in religion or an MAR,it's referred to in the field
master of arts in religion.
That's the first levelof graduate study, and
then a master of divinityis the next level up.
It's a longer program.
They're typically around90 hour graduate programs
(07:19):
for a master of divinityin my experience, which is
really long for a graduate, for a master's program.
There's a lot more languagestudy involved at that level,
for those classical languages.
And then , it goes from thereinto the, the doctorate level.
Jesse Butts (07:34):
Okay.
So as you were in graduateschool and, you know,
you had tried differentthings, and I think if I'm
remembering correctly, yousaid during the process,
you learned that a minister,ministerial, is that the
correct way to pronounce that?
David Brown (07:47):
I think...
Jesse Butts (07:49):
Ministerial?
David Brown (07:50):
We'll go with that.
Yeah.
Jesse Butts (07:51):
Okay, so...
It's a learning adventure foreverybody on this show, folks.
So you decided that wasn'tthe right pursuit for you.
As you were...
enjoy ing the study, as youwere coming to the end of
that master's program, didyou find any clarity in what
you wanted to do or wereyou unsure of what would be
(08:13):
next after you graduated?
David Brown (08:15):
I was very unsure.
And I think if I were toencapsulate those next few
years after I graduated,it would be this constant
search for what's next.
What I determined, and therewas a, there was a process of
self discovery during this.
When I worked in a ministerialrole, I would be...
I found myselfexhausted all the time.
(08:35):
And I could never reallyfigure out why at the time.
I did later, spoiler alert.
There was this momentof self discovery that
I arrived at later.
I found that what I reallyenjoyed was when I came
home at night to work on apaper or to do the study.
I really loved the academic partof it, more than anything else.
I've always had this,this creative side
(08:55):
that I needed to feed.
And I, what I really wanted todo, was do doctoral work in how
theology and art work together.
And that was reallywhat I wanted to do.
At the very end of my graduatework, I, I met my, who would
be my future wife, and we gotmarried and then life took over.
And, while doing thedoctoral, the doctorate
(09:17):
program, was really what weboth sort of wanted to do.
We were confronted withthe fact that you also
have to make a living.
And so , after I finished mygraduate program, I actually
went back into the, the mentalhealth field, because that's
what I knew and that's howI could, I could pay the
bills, at the time, right?
Which, which wassort of the priority.
Jesse Butts (09:39):
So did you mean that you and your wife
both independently wantedto pursue doctoral programs?
David Brown (09:45):
Yes.
, her field isdifferent from mine.
But yes, we, wedid both want to...
and there are all sorts ofchallenges there, right?
Like, is there a schoolthat could, that, that
had programs that wereinteresting to both of us?
That would cover both of ourcourses of study and that we
could both get accepted to?
There's, there's all sortsof variables there that
(10:05):
make it so difficult.
As I said, how do you,you know, make a living
during that time period?
Jesse Butts (10:13):
So as you returned to the mental health
field, counseling, were youdoing something different
now that you had a master's?
Were you able to qualifyfor certain certifications?
Or was it kind of like anexploratory period of being
able to earn an income, butfocusing on what's next?
David Brown (10:33):
I think I probably could have
qualified at the time.
And that changed dramaticallylater, which was sort of
a, of a pivoting point.
I didn't, but it was moreof an exploratory time.
It was more of a...
it was survival.
It was almost treadingwater in a way.
Like this was how, wepaid for life as, as a
(10:54):
newly married couple.
And so that changed afew years later because
of some legislationand different things.
There, there started tobe requirements for really
specific types of master'sdegrees to do what I was doing.
I essentially found out thatif, if you want to keep doing
this, you need to go get oneof these degrees in a very
(11:18):
specific and focused discipline.
And that will allow youto stay where you are.
We talked about it a lot.
And I said, Thatdoesn't make sense.
I already have one master's.
Why would I go get a secondone when the end result is I
come out exactly where I am?
Like, it wasn't an upwardmobility thing at that point.
Like that, that just doesn'tmake any sense to me at all.
(11:39):
And so what was the point?
And too, I found that same typeof exhaustion from doing that
for a living and was starting torealize why that was and decided
that that wouldn't be thehealthiest thing for me anyway.
I had just come tothat conclusion.
So that was sort of whatprompted me to look at, at
(11:59):
different career avenues.
Jesse Butts (12:02):
How long did you return...
or did you stay in that fieldthat you had done previously
before seriously exploringa different career field
or taking a different typeof role somewhere else?
David Brown (12:14):
I want to say it was about four years.
And then, as I said,the decisions started
to be made for me.
And then as well, it wasthat sort of culmination of
that, that self-discovery.
That term self discovery.
I feel like that's such acliche word, but, or cliche
phrase to use, but it really...
(12:35):
, that self-discovery processthat had started way back
when I was in grad school,it sort of culminated around
then when, I, I really startedto dig into the difference
between being an introvertand being an extrovert.
And the fact that I was cominghome so exhausted every day
was because I was working withpeople all day, every day.
(12:56):
And I just came to theconclusion that that's,
that's not how I'm wired.
That's just not how I'm built.
And , I think for the firsttime I realized, You know what?
That's okay.
There are really great peoplethat are introverts too.
And understanding that aboutmyself made so many puzzle
pieces fall into place.
And so, when it started tobecome really apparent that,
(13:18):
that I was going to have tomake a career change, for
all the reasons that I justmentioned, like this one
wasn't available to me anymore.
Or wouldn't be soon.
Knowing this, this about myself,what could I do for a living
that was more introverted?
What skills did Ihave that would, that
(13:39):
would work with that?
Or what skills...
The answer was not many,but what skills I acquire
that would work with that?
It was almost sort of thiscrisis point when you realize
can't do what I've done anymore.
Like, this career is going tovanish, and what do I do now?
And you really have to figuresome things out quickly.
But that was sort of wherewe found ourselves, yeah.
Jesse Butts (13:59):
And I was just thinking about what you
mentioned as things that youstudied in undergrad, even.
I mean, you mentionedcommunications,
theater, psychology.
And I mean, those all dohave introverted points,
but they're, they're kind oflargely, or maybe I shouldn't
say largely, but thoseare often also associated
(14:21):
with extroverts as well.
So as you kind of came to thiscrisis point that you couldn't
go further, I mean, what wereyou looking for, at anything...
like what's something whereI, as an introvert, can do
work that I feel supports me?
That I feel is engaging?
(14:41):
What was thatprocess like for you?
David Brown (14:43):
It was really difficult.
I, I started to examine so,so what skills do I have that
are marketable at that point?
I was and sort of always hadbeen a writer, which I think
is part of the reason I likegrad school too, is because
you're writing all the time.
But I, I didn't have the...
I didn't have theconnections to do that
(15:04):
full-time professionally.
I did some freelance work inthat, in that realm, and really
that was where I got interestedin, in the web as well.
Because I was bloggingback when blogging was
first sort of a thing.
Back in its, its glory days.
And I did a lot of that and Iwould guest blog and I would
do these sorts of like one-offlittle freelance writing gigs,
(15:28):
but you know, that doesn't paythe bills either, unfortunately.
And so, so there wasthis period of really
deep self-examination.
During that process, where,as I said, I, I would do some
blogging and some guest bloggingand those sorts of things.
That was back in the earlyenough days of it, that you sort
(15:49):
of had to know a little bit ofcode to do what you were doing.
And so I knew justenough to be dangerous.
And I would shutter to lookat some of the stuff now that
I wrote back then, but it wasjust sort of this little hobby
that I had, that I would kindof, you know, hack at stuff.
And so I just sort of oneday took seriously the idea
(16:10):
of, Well, what happens ifI take that from just being
this random hobby to somethingI could make a living at.
And what, what doesthat look like?
And that's sort of really whatkicked off the whole career
change was was that moment.
Jesse Butts (16:26):
I know that you did pursue, you earned,
I should say, a certificatein web development.
Did you land work and then theywanted you to be certified?
Or was that your gatewayinto that type of work?
David Brown (16:38):
That was very much the gateway in.
Basically when I made thisdecision, and I knew that there
had to be a career change andI made the decision, Okay,
this is what it's going to be.
Really I did what I know.
I went back to school.
That was, that was knew to do.
Jesse Butts (16:52):
Yeah.
David Brown (16:53):
And, uh, and so that was very
much the, gateway in.
I sort of saw it as a practicalcertification on top of
my communications degree.
That's, that's reallyhow I looked at it.
It was this really specificset of technical skills that
I was layering on top of theacademic study that I had done.
And it turned out to beexactly the right thing.
(17:16):
So that was fun.
Jesse Butts (17:18):
So if we could pause here for a minute, because
I think this is somethingvaluable where, you know, you
had the impulse to go back toschool because you said that,
that's what you knew to do.
But you also didn't get amaster's in computer science or
something that would, you know,take another two or three years.
Can you talk about what acertificate program is like?
Or what people shouldlook like if they see that
(17:41):
skill gap, particularlyin technical skills, and
weighing a certificate versusanother full-blown degree.
David Brown (17:49):
Yeah.
You know, and in this field it'sdifficult because honestly, some
of the best programmers I knowhave no higher education at all.
But I think that when you lookat it broadly, I think that it's
like any other academic program.
You have to be really pickyabout the program that you're
looking at, at that moment.
The, the program that Ichose, that I went to, it
(18:11):
was, it was very broad.
It taught not just programmingtheory, but a broader range
of, This is how the web works.
These are like...
this is how this thing is built.
And then dove into the,to the specifics of it.
To the languages that, I learnedinitially that would become the
foundation for all the languagesI would learn in the future,
programming languages, I mean.
(18:31):
So I, I think you have to be,if I think of that broadly, I
think you have to look at the...
you have to assess thattechnical skill gap, right?
Like what, what do I need toknow to be successful at this
thing that I don't know now?
And that's sort of yourlitmus test for looking at
certificate or certificationsprograms and as well...
(18:55):
being able to let what you don'tknow, tell you what you need
to know, if that makes sense.
Sometimes you know enoughthat, Here's this specific
technical skill that I don'thave that I need, but as you're
discovering that skill, youneed to let it inform you of,
Oh, but this presupposes theseother three skills over here.
(19:16):
And you know what?
I don't have those either.
So maybe I need toback up a level.
Learn that first, right.
Jesse Butts (19:22):
So once you finish that certificate,
did they provide some typeof career network pipeline
to certain companies?
Or were you kind of out in thewild looking for what's next?
David Brown (19:35):
They did provide that network.
More than that.
And I honestly think thisis one of the most valuable
things I learned is theytaught you how to network.
And it is its own skill, asyou and I both know, now.
It really is its own skill.
And especially for someonewho's really introverted, the
idea of going to a conferencein a room full of people you
(19:56):
don't know and just makingconnections is terrifying for
someone who's an introvert.
And we do it.
We force ourselves out thereand we do it, but we're
just not the best at it.
Learning those skillswas so huge for me.
So pivotal.
Jesse Butts (20:14):
I feel like now we're in a golden age of
networking for introverts,in the sense that so many
people are much more, becauseof the pandemic, they're so
much more willing to justjump on a video call or a
phone call versus, Hey, let'smeet for coffee or let's,
you know, go to this mixer.
(20:35):
Maybe I should say thereare a lot more opportunities
to meet people one-on-oneversus going to the large
mixers or, or events thanI recall even, you know, a
year before the pandemic.
David Brown (20:47):
I agree.
I , I think for introverts,there's this safety net around
the idea of, I can networkwithout leaving my house.
I think that's going tocut both ways eventually.
I think, there's more tobe gained in human contact.
I think we're all startingto miss that a bit.
But I, I agree itis much easier.
I hadn't thought of it asa golden age before, but
think that's actually agreat term to apply to it.
(21:08):
It really is.
Jesse Butts (21:10):
Did your networking then lead to a
software development role?
David Brown (21:15):
It did.
And really those first coupleof years, we're jumping from
contract gig to contract gig.
I was, I was really backto a freelance type of
lifestyle, but I was okaywith that at the time.
And I did that for a fewyears quite comfortably.
But then I, I learned the,the downside of that is
(21:35):
that it leads to a sort ofnecessary, workaholic-ism.
Is that a word?
You, you out of necessityare always doing 60 plus hour
weeks because you're alwaysmarketing yourself, you're
always finding the next jobthat's going to come about.
It was amazingly educationalthough, because I got to do
(21:56):
contract work for severalreally large companies and
really see how the fieldworks, if that makes sense.
Because I, I hadn't doneanything like that before.
And so there was a verysteep learning curve.
In addition to all the skillsI'd learned, there was a
very steep learning curveof honestly just working
in the business world.
It's interesting because Ithink when you, when you work
(22:17):
for yourself, in, at least, inthis field, I think a year of
doing that is worth three yearsof doing it for an employer,
because all of those problemsthat you run up against as a
programmer, you really haveto figure out for yourself.
You can't, you know, go tothe person in the next cube
and say, Hey, I'm stuck.
Can you give me a secondset of eyes on this?
(22:38):
You really have to digin and come up with
those answers yourself.
It's incredibly educational.
It's also incredibly exhausting.
There, there came a point aftera few years of that, where we
found out we were expectingour second child, and I said,
Okay, I probably need to bea grownup again and go get a
job working for someone else.
(22:58):
Then I was offered a positionwith a really fantastic company.
And things just sortof took off from there.
Jesse Butts (23:05):
If you don't mind just taking a slight
tangent here, how did youadjust to losing that freedom
when you went in house?
David Brown (23:13):
I feel like I didn't lose much.
We moved to a different city.
I did have a commuteagain, which I had been
working remotely for afew years at that point.
So there was a little bitof an adjustment there.
But I think it was offsetby the fact that I got
to work with some really,really awesome people.
I got that rare experience of acompany that just really cares
(23:37):
about the people who work there.
And I ended up sort ofpioneering, Hey, this is
what, a culture of workingremotely looks like.
And we should incorporate thatfor some of our people, which
actually positioned thingswell for when the pandemic hit.
But, Yeah.
So there, therewas an adjustment.
Ultimately, and I thinkit's, you know, it's
(23:57):
different for every person.
There are people that aregoing to hear this and say, I
would never do that because thefreedom of working for myself is
just way too much of an asset.
It's different for every person.
Where I was in my life and wewere in our lives at that point,
there was more positive thannegative that came from that.
So it's not like therewere things that didn't
frustrate me a bit about it.
(24:18):
I wasn't in love withcommuting in Boston traffic,
you know, at that point.
But there was more good thanbad and it turned out to be
actually a really good decision.
Jesse Butts (24:31):
And how did you get into management?
David Brown (24:35):
There were sort of a combination of things.
So because of my experiencelevel at the time that I
was offered this positioninitially, I was offered it
as a, as a senior developer.
And then that team endedup needing a manager or
someone left and they neededsomeone to lead that team.
And so they, theyasked me to do it.
(24:57):
Actually they asked meto do it on a, on a sort
of an interim basis.
But then at the same time,that company decided to get
into a new, a new technologystack that was new to them, but
that I had worked in before.
And so, because I knew it, theytapped me to lead that as well.
And so that turned into actuallyspinning up an entire new team.
(25:19):
And so that was really when Icame into a management role.
And really then that becamesort of the career ... career
trajectory that I was onfrom that point forward.
Jesse Butts (25:31):
Earlier when you were mentioning that when you
discovered that you were anintrovert, and you couldn't
be around people as much...
Going to a position whereyou're managing people, I know
to some listeners that mightsound like some dissonance.
But I think it's an importantthing to talk about because,
and I've experienced this too,you can have great managers
(25:53):
who are not extroverts.
But what did you have to learnor adapt to, to managing people?
And doing it in a waythat didn't have you
feeling exhausted likeyou had in some of those
previous roles where you
David Brown (26:04):
Yeah.
Jesse Butts (26:05):
spending a lot of time with people?
David Brown (26:07):
Yeah.
You're right.
It does feelcounterintuitive, right?
, I think it was part ofthat self discovery.
So I think a misconception aboutintroverts is that we don't
like to be around people at all.
And that's not, that'snot actually true.
Introverts are great whenwe're one-on-one with people.
And when you're managinga team of developers,
(26:27):
of software developers,that's a lot of what it is.
When you meet with people,it's generally one-on-one.
When you meet with the peoplethat you, that you manage.
There's a lot ofnon-face-to-face
communication as well.
You say a lot more overSlack than you do in
meetings generally.
I think being an introvert orbeing an extrovert, it really
comes down to how you sortof recharge your batteries.
(26:50):
Right?
Introverts recharge ourbatteries by having quiet
time, where we can justfocus on a task and not
interact with people.
There's a lot of that whenyou do software development,
because when you're, you'reworking on a solution, when
you're writing code, youjust sort of have, have your
earbuds in and have tuned outeverybody else in the office.
And everybody else aroundyou has done the same thing.
(27:12):
All you hear are the keyboards.
And so there's, there's plentyof time for that recharge.
So when you do go into ameeting with several people
for that hour or two hours, ifthey're back-to-back meetings
or whatever, you still canbe at your best and still can
focus and contribute becauseyou have a lot of time to
sort of recharge afterward.
Jesse Butts (27:34):
Uh, what other aspects have you found enjoyable
about this work that, you know,15 years ago, wasn't even in
the realm of possibilities you?
David Brown (27:44):
I think there's a couple of things.
I think it expanded howI define creativity.
I think when I was younger,creativity always meant,
I was doing somethingartistic or something.
Right.
Like, but I've discoveredthat creativity also means
how you problem solve.
How, how you comeup with solutions to
really complex problems.
How you think outside ofthe box to figure out how
(28:06):
to make something work.
That's a lot ofwhat development.
I think that was one part of it.
I think another part is Ilearned something was really
satisfying to me, was gettingto mentor people who were newer
in the field and help themgrow in their careers, which is
probably the best part of beinga manager, is getting to watch
(28:28):
people grow and help them growin their careers and helps them
get better at what they do.
Which is just a reallyfantastic thing.
There's sort of this differencethat I've learned between
leadership and management.
And they're very sortof different things.
But, the leadership part ofthat is something that I, that
I really enjoy that honestly,I find much more fulfilling
(28:48):
than any problem that I solvefrom a technical perspective.
Jesse Butts (28:52):
Do you see any connection to, or relationship
to, your master's programand what you're doing now?
Were there any skills orideas that you covered in
your studies that you'resome way applying today?
David Brown (29:07):
Believe it or not, yes.
Part of what you studyin a seminary program
is, is leadership theory.
People that work in ministerialprofessions are still managers,
and you're still leading people.
Now, you're leading them ina slightly different way,
obviously, but I think thatthose core principles, honestly,
I think I apply those every day.
(29:28):
And honestly, I think a lotof the core things that I
learned when I studied theaterin my undergrad, I applied
that every day too, becausemanaging these projects is
like managing a production.
There's so many moving parts.
But I think that leadershippiece definitely is something
that I lean on every daywith the team that I manage.
Jesse Butts (29:47):
I was curious if the theater direction was
something about, I'm glad Ilearned how to act because
I have to so much of it, but
David Brown (29:55):
There, are some meetings where
that would be the case.
Yes.
Jesse Butts (29:58):
Fair enough.
Um, is there anything that wehaven't touched on that you
had to learn about yourselfto find work that fit for you?
David Brown (30:09):
I think, Yeah.
I think.
I think that there's aquestion of, of how you,
you hold your identity.
If that makes sense.
I think that frequently when youcome out of a graduate program,
you're identifying with thatfield that you studied, right?
This is what I'm going to do.
And so this is who I am.
(30:30):
I think that you have tosort of separate those two.
You have to figureout who you are.
You have to figureout what excites you.
What really gets you motivated.
The things that you've reallylove to do and really structure
your profession around that.
If you can, find somethingthat works around that, that
(30:51):
compliments those skills.
I think that was reallycritical when I came to that.
It was sort of this epiphany.
You know, this light bulbmoment when I realized that.
And how do you make that work?
Jesse Butts (31:03):
How important is job fit to you?
Do you need to love a jobfrom your perspective?
David Brown (31:09):
I don't think so.
I think for a few reasons.
I think ...in the world thatwe live in that there's no such
thing as job security, right?
Like that's, I feel likethat's sort of gone.
That's a thing of the past.
To the point that we saidbefore, I, I think knowing,
knowing yourself, knowing,Does, does doing this
(31:30):
job work with the thingsthat I know motivate me?
Or can I make thisjob do it, right?
I, I don't think that you needto love it because I think
there are other, there's somany other things in your life
that are so much more important.
And it's not that what you dofor a living isn't important.
I'm not saying that.
And I think when you do needto be happy there, because
(31:51):
we spend way too much timeat work to not be happy.
But I think loving your job,that's not so essential to me.
Having a job fit you and whoyou are and what you love to do.
I think that's, what's importantis having the job fit you, not
making yourself fit the job.
Jesse Butts (32:12):
Do you engage with, for lack of a better
term, religious studies?
Are you , you know,occasionally picking up
some of those, you know,weightier theological books?
Are you engaged inwhat you had studied?
David Brown (32:24):
I totally do.
I'm that geek who would atheology book on a weekend to...
I do sometimes not inany ... I still approach
it as, as a hobby.
It's, obviously, it'snot something I do
professionally anymore.
But you'll, you would definitelyfind me reading theology,
subreddits, or something likethat when I'm just browsing the
(32:48):
web on the weekend or something.
I totally do.
Jesse Butts (32:51):
What questions should someone in or recently
out of grad school askthemselves about finding work
outside their fields of study?
David Brown (33:03):
Really....
That's a hard question.
I think that it's, it's sortof what I said a moment ago.
You know, knowing yourself,knowing what gets you motivated,
knowing the, the things orthe types of things that
you, you really love to do.
I think knowing that is goingto inform whatever technical
(33:27):
skills you need to learn.
That's going to informthe, the sorts of positions
that you're going to lookfor when you're right out of
school, the types of jobs thatyou're going to apply for.
It's, I think it's reallyimportant to, to know yourself,
to know, know that part ofyourself, because I think if
you don't you could get into aposition where you're going to
(33:47):
be miserable really quickly,and that's no fun for anyone.
I think it's importantto be adaptable.
I think sometimes in graduateprograms, you come out
with a really narrow focusof, This is my discipline.
This is my field.
This is what I'm going to do.
But there's so much moreout there than that.
When you think about howyou're going to make a living,
there's so much more out there.
And whatever field it is, Iguarantee you it's broader
(34:10):
than you could have imagined.
And there are so manycomponents to it that you, you
had never thought of before.
Being able to keep an openmind and stay adaptable
and be willing to takea chance on something...
that's, that's really important.
Jesse Butts (34:25):
As you were searching for things or trying
to figure this out, was thereany, any books, any videos,
any podcasts or anything thatyou recommend people check out?
David Brown (34:35):
Yes.
The, the name ofthe book was Quiet.
Uh, the subtitle was ThePower of Introverts in a
World That Can't Stop Talking.
And that book was, waslife altering for me.
because it not only helped meunderstand myself and that I was
an introvert, and that was okay,but it also helped me understand
(34:57):
all the people that are aroundme that, that aren't introverts.
It helped me under...
understand extroverts better.
And when I look at booksthat I've read that have,
I guess, contributed to mysuccess in different ways,
that ,that book is huge.
That book helped and informedso much of my career and
(35:18):
so much of my success.
Whether you think you're anintrovert or not, I highly
recommend that everyoneshould read that book.
Jesse Butts (35:25):
All right.
I'll make sure to put a linkto that in the show notes.
You know, you mentioned earlier,doing some freelance writing
and writing on your own.
Do you have a website oranything that if people
are interested in learningmore about your writing,
they should check out?
David Brown (35:36):
Sure.
DavidBrownPortfolio.com andUnobtrusiveLucidity.com.
Jesse Butts (35:42):
All right.
Well, this has been awonderful conversation, Dave.
Thank you for joining me.
David Brown (35:46):
Thank you.
I've really enjoyed it.
Thanks for having me.
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting with DavidBrown, an MA in religion turned
software development manager.
Dave is now a technicalarchitect and manager.
Dave, welcome.
Delighted to haveyou on the show.
David Brown (00:41):
Hi, Jesse.
Great.
Thank you for having me.
Jesse Butts (00:43):
Absolutely.
So I think this will be avery interesting conversation.
We haven't had anyone yet whohas gone from a religion to, or
a master's in religion, excuseme, to software development or
software development management.
But before we dive intothat, can we just start with
a bit about your day to day?
(01:03):
What are you doing as asoftware development manager?
What does that entail exactly?
David Brown (01:08):
So I lead a team of developers and my
job isn't so much being inthe code day-to-day anymore.
It used to be.
I don't want so muchto do that anymore.
I'm more responsible foroverseeing projects, deciding
how some complex problemsare going to be tackled and
(01:31):
built, how the solution isgoing to be architected.
So that involves a lot moreinterfacing with clients
and, you know, helpingdevelopers decide how
they're going to approacha problem or a solution.
And being a littlemore hands-off.
I do a lot of reviewing otherdevelopers code, making sure
(01:52):
that best practices are followedand those sorts of things.
So that's, that's a lot ofwhat my day-to-day looks like.
Jesse Butts (01:59):
So is a lot of that also deciding, or excuse
me, deciding which developerwill work on which aspect
of whatever you happen tobe developing at that time?
David Brown (02:09):
Sure.
That's some of it.
Yeah.
And also if there are multipleapproaches to something, part
of my responsibility is havingthat high level view of being
able to see because of theseother things that are going
on over here that maybe thisdeveloper doesn't know about,
this solution is better thanthat solution as far as a
(02:30):
way to tackle this problem.
And so we should, we should leanthis way instead of that way.
So a lot of my job is beingable to have a holistic view of
the entire project rather thanbeing in the minutia of all of
the details from day-to-day.
Jesse Butts (02:46):
So now that we have a pretty good understanding
of what you're doing now, I'mwondering if we could step
back in time a little bit.
I am curious what, whatprompted you to enroll in
grad school originally?
Why did you want to continueyour studies after undergrad?
David Brown (03:03):
So it's funny.
So I, I am a case study inthe person who could never
decide what they wantedto be when they grew up.
If I go back even furtherthan that and look at my
undergrad, I started myundergrad as a music major.
And then I went from musicto being an education major.
And then I actually droppedout altogether for a semester
(03:25):
and tried to figure out life.
And then I went back asa communications major.
And then I declaredtheater as a second major.
And when the dust hassettled and everything was
done, I came out with acommunications major and a
psychology minor of all things.
So, I was always in thissort of state of flux.
(03:45):
I was interested inall these things and I
loved being creative andstudying all these things.
And then I came out ofmy undergrad and actually
went into a career as acounselor, believe it or not.
And that was how, thatwas how I made my living
for several years.
(04:06):
And then, I think I, Ijust wanted a change.
I wanted a bit ofa break from that.
My decision to study religionor theology at a graduate level
was very much just, I wanted toexplore my faith at an academic
level, and dive into that andreally understand it better.
Jesse Butts (04:25):
Just to clarify, so you were a counselor before
you started graduate school?
Okay.
That's, that's interesting.
I, I, at least I'm not awareof and I'm not certain about
my listeners, but what typeof counselor positions are
available to people who don'thave an advanced degree?
David Brown (04:42):
Yeah, counselor is a broad term.
I'm using counselor ina very broad term there.
So I did things likecase management.
I did crisis interventions.
I did those sorts of things.
I wasn't, you know, thetherapist that was meeting
with clients one-on-one inthe office during that time.
I was definitely alevel under that.
Because all of thosepositions, the licensure for
(05:04):
all those positions requiregraduate degrees, which I
didn't have at the time.
I'm using counselor and abroad term there because I
was definitely a level underwhat you would generally
think of as counselor.
Jesse Butts (05:15):
Got it.
So when you started grad school,were you working during grad
school, as you were exploringthe academic side of your faith?
Were you a full-timegrad student?
What was that like?
David Brown (05:27):
It was crazy.
I was a full-time student.
I did work also.
I did some work in the samefields, in mental health
on, sort of on the side.
I also worked in some ministrysettings on the side, in
some pastoral positions.
And, and that was great becauseit really allowed me to explore
that and decide what am I doingwith these graduate studies?
(05:52):
Is this something that Iwant to do vocationally?
Is it just sort of scratchingmy own itch, learning,
learning these thingsthat I wanted to learn?
What is that?
And there, there weredefinitely things that I
loved about it, about workingin ministry professionally.
And there were definitelysome things that I didn't.
And so I was sort of doing allof that ,and it was good because
(06:15):
it, it informed my study.
Any time you...
I think any discipline, whenyou study it ... it's really
hard to study it in theabstract without knowing how
it's put into practice, right?
I think it was a goodthing in the sense that
it informed my study.
I did lots of, of workwhile being a student full
time, which probably was nothealthy in the long-term.
(06:37):
The was way too muchcaffeine involved in that.
And too many late nights.
But that's what I did.
Jesse Butts (06:44):
If somebody is interested in going
into the ministry or...
do they typically studyan MA in religion or is
it a master's in divinity?
Is the MA in religionintended to be a bit broader?
David Brown (06:58):
It's sort of tiers if that makes sense.
So an MA in religion or an MAR,it's referred to in the field
master of arts in religion.
That's the first levelof graduate study, and
then a master of divinityis the next level up.
It's a longer program.
They're typically around90 hour graduate programs
(07:19):
for a master of divinityin my experience, which is
really long for a graduate, for a master's program.
There's a lot more languagestudy involved at that level,
for those classical languages.
And then , it goes from thereinto the, the doctorate level.
Jesse Butts (07:34):
Okay.
So as you were in graduateschool and, you know,
you had tried differentthings, and I think if I'm
remembering correctly, yousaid during the process,
you learned that a minister,ministerial, is that the
correct way to pronounce that?
David Brown (07:47):
I think...
Jesse Butts (07:49):
Ministerial?
David Brown (07:50):
We'll go with that.
Yeah.
Jesse Butts (07:51):
Okay, so...
It's a learning adventure foreverybody on this show, folks.
So you decided that wasn'tthe right pursuit for you.
As you were...
enjoy ing the study, as youwere coming to the end of
that master's program, didyou find any clarity in what
you wanted to do or wereyou unsure of what would be
(08:13):
next after you graduated?
David Brown (08:15):
I was very unsure.
And I think if I were toencapsulate those next few
years after I graduated,it would be this constant
search for what's next.
What I determined, and therewas a, there was a process of
self discovery during this.
When I worked in a ministerialrole, I would be...
I found myselfexhausted all the time.
(08:35):
And I could never reallyfigure out why at the time.
I did later, spoiler alert.
There was this momentof self discovery that
I arrived at later.
I found that what I reallyenjoyed was when I came
home at night to work on apaper or to do the study.
I really loved the academic partof it, more than anything else.
I've always had this,this creative side
(08:55):
that I needed to feed.
And I, what I really wanted todo, was do doctoral work in how
theology and art work together.
And that was reallywhat I wanted to do.
At the very end of my graduatework, I, I met my, who would
be my future wife, and we gotmarried and then life took over.
And, while doing thedoctoral, the doctorate
(09:17):
program, was really what weboth sort of wanted to do.
We were confronted withthe fact that you also
have to make a living.
And so , after I finished mygraduate program, I actually
went back into the, the mentalhealth field, because that's
what I knew and that's howI could, I could pay the
bills, at the time, right?
Which, which wassort of the priority.
Jesse Butts (09:39):
So did you mean that you and your wife
both independently wantedto pursue doctoral programs?
David Brown (09:45):
Yes.
, her field isdifferent from mine.
But yes, we, wedid both want to...
and there are all sorts ofchallenges there, right?
Like, is there a schoolthat could, that, that
had programs that wereinteresting to both of us?
That would cover both of ourcourses of study and that we
could both get accepted to?
There's, there's all sortsof variables there that
(10:05):
make it so difficult.
As I said, how do you,you know, make a living
during that time period?
Jesse Butts (10:13):
So as you returned to the mental health
field, counseling, were youdoing something different
now that you had a master's?
Were you able to qualifyfor certain certifications?
Or was it kind of like anexploratory period of being
able to earn an income, butfocusing on what's next?
David Brown (10:33):
I think I probably could have
qualified at the time.
And that changed dramaticallylater, which was sort of
a, of a pivoting point.
I didn't, but it was moreof an exploratory time.
It was more of a...
it was survival.
It was almost treadingwater in a way.
Like this was how, wepaid for life as, as a
(10:54):
newly married couple.
And so that changed afew years later because
of some legislationand different things.
There, there started tobe requirements for really
specific types of master'sdegrees to do what I was doing.
I essentially found out thatif, if you want to keep doing
this, you need to go get oneof these degrees in a very
(11:18):
specific and focused discipline.
And that will allow youto stay where you are.
We talked about it a lot.
And I said, Thatdoesn't make sense.
I already have one master's.
Why would I go get a secondone when the end result is I
come out exactly where I am?
Like, it wasn't an upwardmobility thing at that point.
Like that, that just doesn'tmake any sense to me at all.
(11:39):
And so what was the point?
And too, I found that same typeof exhaustion from doing that
for a living and was starting torealize why that was and decided
that that wouldn't be thehealthiest thing for me anyway.
I had just come tothat conclusion.
So that was sort of whatprompted me to look at, at
(11:59):
different career avenues.
Jesse Butts (12:02):
How long did you return...
or did you stay in that fieldthat you had done previously
before seriously exploringa different career field
or taking a different typeof role somewhere else?
David Brown (12:14):
I want to say it was about four years.
And then, as I said,the decisions started
to be made for me.
And then as well, it wasthat sort of culmination of
that, that self-discovery.
That term self discovery.
I feel like that's such acliche word, but, or cliche
phrase to use, but it really...
(12:35):
, that self-discovery processthat had started way back
when I was in grad school,it sort of culminated around
then when, I, I really startedto dig into the difference
between being an introvertand being an extrovert.
And the fact that I was cominghome so exhausted every day
was because I was working withpeople all day, every day.
(12:56):
And I just came to theconclusion that that's,
that's not how I'm wired.
That's just not how I'm built.
And , I think for the firsttime I realized, You know what?
That's okay.
There are really great peoplethat are introverts too.
And understanding that aboutmyself made so many puzzle
pieces fall into place.
And so, when it started tobecome really apparent that,
(13:18):
that I was going to have tomake a career change, for
all the reasons that I justmentioned, like this one
wasn't available to me anymore.
Or wouldn't be soon.
Knowing this, this about myself,what could I do for a living
that was more introverted?
What skills did Ihave that would, that
(13:39):
would work with that?
Or what skills...
The answer was not many,but what skills I acquire
that would work with that?
It was almost sort of thiscrisis point when you realize
can't do what I've done anymore.
Like, this career is going tovanish, and what do I do now?
And you really have to figuresome things out quickly.
But that was sort of wherewe found ourselves, yeah.
Jesse Butts (13:59):
And I was just thinking about what you
mentioned as things that youstudied in undergrad, even.
I mean, you mentionedcommunications,
theater, psychology.
And I mean, those all dohave introverted points,
but they're, they're kind oflargely, or maybe I shouldn't
say largely, but thoseare often also associated
(14:21):
with extroverts as well.
So as you kind of came to thiscrisis point that you couldn't
go further, I mean, what wereyou looking for, at anything...
like what's something whereI, as an introvert, can do
work that I feel supports me?
That I feel is engaging?
(14:41):
What was thatprocess like for you?
David Brown (14:43):
It was really difficult.
I, I started to examine so,so what skills do I have that
are marketable at that point?
I was and sort of always hadbeen a writer, which I think
is part of the reason I likegrad school too, is because
you're writing all the time.
But I, I didn't have the...
I didn't have theconnections to do that
(15:04):
full-time professionally.
I did some freelance work inthat, in that realm, and really
that was where I got interestedin, in the web as well.
Because I was bloggingback when blogging was
first sort of a thing.
Back in its, its glory days.
And I did a lot of that and Iwould guest blog and I would
do these sorts of like one-offlittle freelance writing gigs,
(15:28):
but you know, that doesn't paythe bills either, unfortunately.
And so, so there wasthis period of really
deep self-examination.
During that process, where,as I said, I, I would do some
blogging and some guest bloggingand those sorts of things.
That was back in the earlyenough days of it, that you sort
(15:49):
of had to know a little bit ofcode to do what you were doing.
And so I knew justenough to be dangerous.
And I would shutter to lookat some of the stuff now that
I wrote back then, but it wasjust sort of this little hobby
that I had, that I would kindof, you know, hack at stuff.
And so I just sort of oneday took seriously the idea
(16:10):
of, Well, what happens ifI take that from just being
this random hobby to somethingI could make a living at.
And what, what doesthat look like?
And that's sort of really whatkicked off the whole career
change was was that moment.
Jesse Butts (16:26):
I know that you did pursue, you earned,
I should say, a certificatein web development.
Did you land work and then theywanted you to be certified?
Or was that your gatewayinto that type of work?
David Brown (16:38):
That was very much the gateway in.
Basically when I made thisdecision, and I knew that there
had to be a career change andI made the decision, Okay,
this is what it's going to be.
Really I did what I know.
I went back to school.
That was, that was knew to do.
Jesse Butts (16:52):
Yeah.
David Brown (16:53):
And, uh, and so that was very
much the, gateway in.
I sort of saw it as a practicalcertification on top of
my communications degree.
That's, that's reallyhow I looked at it.
It was this really specificset of technical skills that
I was layering on top of theacademic study that I had done.
And it turned out to beexactly the right thing.
(17:16):
So that was fun.
Jesse Butts (17:18):
So if we could pause here for a minute, because
I think this is somethingvaluable where, you know, you
had the impulse to go back toschool because you said that,
that's what you knew to do.
But you also didn't get amaster's in computer science or
something that would, you know,take another two or three years.
Can you talk about what acertificate program is like?
Or what people shouldlook like if they see that
(17:41):
skill gap, particularlyin technical skills, and
weighing a certificate versusanother full-blown degree.
David Brown (17:49):
Yeah.
You know, and in this field it'sdifficult because honestly, some
of the best programmers I knowhave no higher education at all.
But I think that when you lookat it broadly, I think that it's
like any other academic program.
You have to be really pickyabout the program that you're
looking at, at that moment.
The, the program that Ichose, that I went to, it
(18:11):
was, it was very broad.
It taught not just programmingtheory, but a broader range
of, This is how the web works.
These are like...
this is how this thing is built.
And then dove into the,to the specifics of it.
To the languages that, I learnedinitially that would become the
foundation for all the languagesI would learn in the future,
programming languages, I mean.
(18:31):
So I, I think you have to be,if I think of that broadly, I
think you have to look at the...
you have to assess thattechnical skill gap, right?
Like what, what do I need toknow to be successful at this
thing that I don't know now?
And that's sort of yourlitmus test for looking at
certificate or certificationsprograms and as well...
(18:55):
being able to let what you don'tknow, tell you what you need
to know, if that makes sense.
Sometimes you know enoughthat, Here's this specific
technical skill that I don'thave that I need, but as you're
discovering that skill, youneed to let it inform you of,
Oh, but this presupposes theseother three skills over here.
(19:16):
And you know what?
I don't have those either.
So maybe I need toback up a level.
Learn that first, right.
Jesse Butts (19:22):
So once you finish that certificate,
did they provide some typeof career network pipeline
to certain companies?
Or were you kind of out in thewild looking for what's next?
David Brown (19:35):
They did provide that network.
More than that.
And I honestly think thisis one of the most valuable
things I learned is theytaught you how to network.
And it is its own skill, asyou and I both know, now.
It really is its own skill.
And especially for someonewho's really introverted, the
idea of going to a conferencein a room full of people you
(19:56):
don't know and just makingconnections is terrifying for
someone who's an introvert.
And we do it.
We force ourselves out thereand we do it, but we're
just not the best at it.
Learning those skillswas so huge for me.
So pivotal.
Jesse Butts (20:14):
I feel like now we're in a golden age of
networking for introverts,in the sense that so many
people are much more, becauseof the pandemic, they're so
much more willing to justjump on a video call or a
phone call versus, Hey, let'smeet for coffee or let's,
you know, go to this mixer.
(20:35):
Maybe I should say thereare a lot more opportunities
to meet people one-on-oneversus going to the large
mixers or, or events thanI recall even, you know, a
year before the pandemic.
David Brown (20:47):
I agree.
I , I think for introverts,there's this safety net around
the idea of, I can networkwithout leaving my house.
I think that's going tocut both ways eventually.
I think, there's more tobe gained in human contact.
I think we're all startingto miss that a bit.
But I, I agree itis much easier.
I hadn't thought of it asa golden age before, but
think that's actually agreat term to apply to it.
(21:08):
It really is.
Jesse Butts (21:10):
Did your networking then lead to a
software development role?
David Brown (21:15):
It did.
And really those first coupleof years, we're jumping from
contract gig to contract gig.
I was, I was really backto a freelance type of
lifestyle, but I was okaywith that at the time.
And I did that for a fewyears quite comfortably.
But then I, I learned the,the downside of that is
(21:35):
that it leads to a sort ofnecessary, workaholic-ism.
Is that a word?
You, you out of necessityare always doing 60 plus hour
weeks because you're alwaysmarketing yourself, you're
always finding the next jobthat's going to come about.
It was amazingly educationalthough, because I got to do
(21:56):
contract work for severalreally large companies and
really see how the fieldworks, if that makes sense.
Because I, I hadn't doneanything like that before.
And so there was a verysteep learning curve.
In addition to all the skillsI'd learned, there was a
very steep learning curveof honestly just working
in the business world.
It's interesting because Ithink when you, when you work
(22:17):
for yourself, in, at least, inthis field, I think a year of
doing that is worth three yearsof doing it for an employer,
because all of those problemsthat you run up against as a
programmer, you really haveto figure out for yourself.
You can't, you know, go tothe person in the next cube
and say, Hey, I'm stuck.
Can you give me a secondset of eyes on this?
(22:38):
You really have to digin and come up with
those answers yourself.
It's incredibly educational.
It's also incredibly exhausting.
There, there came a point aftera few years of that, where we
found out we were expectingour second child, and I said,
Okay, I probably need to bea grownup again and go get a
job working for someone else.
(22:58):
Then I was offered a positionwith a really fantastic company.
And things just sortof took off from there.
Jesse Butts (23:05):
If you don't mind just taking a slight
tangent here, how did youadjust to losing that freedom
when you went in house?
David Brown (23:13):
I feel like I didn't lose much.
We moved to a different city.
I did have a commuteagain, which I had been
working remotely for afew years at that point.
So there was a little bitof an adjustment there.
But I think it was offsetby the fact that I got
to work with some really,really awesome people.
I got that rare experience of acompany that just really cares
(23:37):
about the people who work there.
And I ended up sort ofpioneering, Hey, this is
what, a culture of workingremotely looks like.
And we should incorporate thatfor some of our people, which
actually positioned thingswell for when the pandemic hit.
But, Yeah.
So there, therewas an adjustment.
Ultimately, and I thinkit's, you know, it's
(23:57):
different for every person.
There are people that aregoing to hear this and say, I
would never do that because thefreedom of working for myself is
just way too much of an asset.
It's different for every person.
Where I was in my life and wewere in our lives at that point,
there was more positive thannegative that came from that.
So it's not like therewere things that didn't
frustrate me a bit about it.
(24:18):
I wasn't in love withcommuting in Boston traffic,
you know, at that point.
But there was more good thanbad and it turned out to be
actually a really good decision.
Jesse Butts (24:31):
And how did you get into management?
David Brown (24:35):
There were sort of a combination of things.
So because of my experiencelevel at the time that I
was offered this positioninitially, I was offered it
as a, as a senior developer.
And then that team endedup needing a manager or
someone left and they neededsomeone to lead that team.
And so they, theyasked me to do it.
(24:57):
Actually they asked meto do it on a, on a sort
of an interim basis.
But then at the same time,that company decided to get
into a new, a new technologystack that was new to them, but
that I had worked in before.
And so, because I knew it, theytapped me to lead that as well.
And so that turned into actuallyspinning up an entire new team.
(25:19):
And so that was really when Icame into a management role.
And really then that becamesort of the career ... career
trajectory that I was onfrom that point forward.
Jesse Butts (25:31):
Earlier when you were mentioning that when you
discovered that you were anintrovert, and you couldn't
be around people as much...
Going to a position whereyou're managing people, I know
to some listeners that mightsound like some dissonance.
But I think it's an importantthing to talk about because,
and I've experienced this too,you can have great managers
(25:53):
who are not extroverts.
But what did you have to learnor adapt to, to managing people?
And doing it in a waythat didn't have you
feeling exhausted likeyou had in some of those
previous roles where you
David Brown (26:04):
Yeah.
Jesse Butts (26:05):
spending a lot of time with people?
David Brown (26:07):
Yeah.
You're right.
It does feelcounterintuitive, right?
, I think it was part ofthat self discovery.
So I think a misconception aboutintroverts is that we don't
like to be around people at all.
And that's not, that'snot actually true.
Introverts are great whenwe're one-on-one with people.
And when you're managinga team of developers,
(26:27):
of software developers,that's a lot of what it is.
When you meet with people,it's generally one-on-one.
When you meet with the peoplethat you, that you manage.
There's a lot ofnon-face-to-face
communication as well.
You say a lot more overSlack than you do in
meetings generally.
I think being an introvert orbeing an extrovert, it really
comes down to how you sortof recharge your batteries.
(26:50):
Right?
Introverts recharge ourbatteries by having quiet
time, where we can justfocus on a task and not
interact with people.
There's a lot of that whenyou do software development,
because when you're, you'reworking on a solution, when
you're writing code, youjust sort of have, have your
earbuds in and have tuned outeverybody else in the office.
And everybody else aroundyou has done the same thing.
(27:12):
All you hear are the keyboards.
And so there's, there's plentyof time for that recharge.
So when you do go into ameeting with several people
for that hour or two hours, ifthey're back-to-back meetings
or whatever, you still canbe at your best and still can
focus and contribute becauseyou have a lot of time to
sort of recharge afterward.
Jesse Butts (27:34):
Uh, what other aspects have you found enjoyable
about this work that, you know,15 years ago, wasn't even in
the realm of possibilities you?
David Brown (27:44):
I think there's a couple of things.
I think it expanded howI define creativity.
I think when I was younger,creativity always meant,
I was doing somethingartistic or something.
Right.
Like, but I've discoveredthat creativity also means
how you problem solve.
How, how you comeup with solutions to
really complex problems.
How you think outside ofthe box to figure out how
(28:06):
to make something work.
That's a lot ofwhat development.
I think that was one part of it.
I think another part is Ilearned something was really
satisfying to me, was gettingto mentor people who were newer
in the field and help themgrow in their careers, which is
probably the best part of beinga manager, is getting to watch
(28:28):
people grow and help them growin their careers and helps them
get better at what they do.
Which is just a reallyfantastic thing.
There's sort of this differencethat I've learned between
leadership and management.
And they're very sortof different things.
But, the leadership part ofthat is something that I, that
I really enjoy that honestly,I find much more fulfilling
(28:48):
than any problem that I solvefrom a technical perspective.
Jesse Butts (28:52):
Do you see any connection to, or relationship
to, your master's programand what you're doing now?
Were there any skills orideas that you covered in
your studies that you'resome way applying today?
David Brown (29:07):
Believe it or not, yes.
Part of what you studyin a seminary program
is, is leadership theory.
People that work in ministerialprofessions are still managers,
and you're still leading people.
Now, you're leading them ina slightly different way,
obviously, but I think thatthose core principles, honestly,
I think I apply those every day.
(29:28):
And honestly, I think a lotof the core things that I
learned when I studied theaterin my undergrad, I applied
that every day too, becausemanaging these projects is
like managing a production.
There's so many moving parts.
But I think that leadershippiece definitely is something
that I lean on every daywith the team that I manage.
Jesse Butts (29:47):
I was curious if the theater direction was
something about, I'm glad Ilearned how to act because
I have to so much of it, but
David Brown (29:55):
There, are some meetings where
that would be the case.
Yes.
Jesse Butts (29:58):
Fair enough.
Um, is there anything that wehaven't touched on that you
had to learn about yourselfto find work that fit for you?
David Brown (30:09):
I think, Yeah.
I think.
I think that there's aquestion of, of how you,
you hold your identity.
If that makes sense.
I think that frequently when youcome out of a graduate program,
you're identifying with thatfield that you studied, right?
This is what I'm going to do.
And so this is who I am.
(30:30):
I think that you have tosort of separate those two.
You have to figureout who you are.
You have to figureout what excites you.
What really gets you motivated.
The things that you've reallylove to do and really structure
your profession around that.
If you can, find somethingthat works around that, that
(30:51):
compliments those skills.
I think that was reallycritical when I came to that.
It was sort of this epiphany.
You know, this light bulbmoment when I realized that.
And how do you make that work?
Jesse Butts (31:03):
How important is job fit to you?
Do you need to love a jobfrom your perspective?
David Brown (31:09):
I don't think so.
I think for a few reasons.
I think ...in the world thatwe live in that there's no such
thing as job security, right?
Like that's, I feel likethat's sort of gone.
That's a thing of the past.
To the point that we saidbefore, I, I think knowing,
knowing yourself, knowing,Does, does doing this
(31:30):
job work with the thingsthat I know motivate me?
Or can I make thisjob do it, right?
I, I don't think that you needto love it because I think
there are other, there's somany other things in your life
that are so much more important.
And it's not that what you dofor a living isn't important.
I'm not saying that.
And I think when you do needto be happy there, because
(31:51):
we spend way too much timeat work to not be happy.
But I think loving your job,that's not so essential to me.
Having a job fit you and whoyou are and what you love to do.
I think that's, what's importantis having the job fit you, not
making yourself fit the job.
Jesse Butts (32:12):
Do you engage with, for lack of a better
term, religious studies?
Are you , you know,occasionally picking up
some of those, you know,weightier theological books?
Are you engaged inwhat you had studied?
David Brown (32:24):
I totally do.
I'm that geek who would atheology book on a weekend to...
I do sometimes not inany ... I still approach
it as, as a hobby.
It's, obviously, it'snot something I do
professionally anymore.
But you'll, you would definitelyfind me reading theology,
subreddits, or something likethat when I'm just browsing the
(32:48):
web on the weekend or something.
I totally do.
Jesse Butts (32:51):
What questions should someone in or recently
out of grad school askthemselves about finding work
outside their fields of study?
David Brown (33:03):
Really....
That's a hard question.
I think that it's, it's sortof what I said a moment ago.
You know, knowing yourself,knowing what gets you motivated,
knowing the, the things orthe types of things that
you, you really love to do.
I think knowing that is goingto inform whatever technical
(33:27):
skills you need to learn.
That's going to informthe, the sorts of positions
that you're going to lookfor when you're right out of
school, the types of jobs thatyou're going to apply for.
It's, I think it's reallyimportant to, to know yourself,
to know, know that part ofyourself, because I think if
you don't you could get into aposition where you're going to
(33:47):
be miserable really quickly,and that's no fun for anyone.
I think it's importantto be adaptable.
I think sometimes in graduateprograms, you come out
with a really narrow focusof, This is my discipline.
This is my field.
This is what I'm going to do.
But there's so much moreout there than that.
When you think about howyou're going to make a living,
there's so much more out there.
And whatever field it is, Iguarantee you it's broader
(34:10):
than you could have imagined.
And there are so manycomponents to it that you, you
had never thought of before.
Being able to keep an openmind and stay adaptable
and be willing to takea chance on something...
that's, that's really important.
Jesse Butts (34:25):
As you were searching for things or trying
to figure this out, was thereany, any books, any videos,
any podcasts or anything thatyou recommend people check out?
David Brown (34:35):
Yes.
The, the name ofthe book was Quiet.
Uh, the subtitle was ThePower of Introverts in a
World That Can't Stop Talking.
And that book was, waslife altering for me.
because it not only helped meunderstand myself and that I was
an introvert, and that was okay,but it also helped me understand
(34:57):
all the people that are aroundme that, that aren't introverts.
It helped me under...
understand extroverts better.
And when I look at booksthat I've read that have,
I guess, contributed to mysuccess in different ways,
that ,that book is huge.
That book helped and informedso much of my career and
(35:18):
so much of my success.
Whether you think you're anintrovert or not, I highly
recommend that everyoneshould read that book.
Jesse Butts (35:25):
All right.
I'll make sure to put a linkto that in the show notes.
You know, you mentioned earlier,doing some freelance writing
and writing on your own.
Do you have a website oranything that if people
are interested in learningmore about your writing,
they should check out?
David Brown (35:36):
Sure.
DavidBrownPortfolio.com andUnobtrusiveLucidity.com.
Jesse Butts (35:42):
All right.
Well, this has been awonderful conversation, Dave.
Thank you for joining me.
David Brown (35:46):
Thank you.
I've really enjoyed it.
Thanks for having me.
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