June 8, 2022 • 39 mins
Dr. Chris Brooks was in the thick of his dissertation when he co-founded Brown Venture Group, a venture capital firm exclusively for Black, Latinx, and Indigenous technology startups. On top of that, he worked a full-time job and took his commitments as a spouse and father of four seriously.
But what sounds like extreme sacrifice to us was “being obedient to my calling” to Chris. And that calling? Creating a new case for human flourishing in communities of color.
Chris believes venture capital can move marginalized groups out of poverty and into living wage jobs, making that human flourishing possible.
Christian theology — particularly Eastern-rooted theology — and economics are, to Chris, intertwined and inextricable. His doctorate and lifelong study of theology are indispensable to his entrepreneurship and devotion to economic justice.
Books & other resources mentioned
Unsettling Truths by Mark Charles and Soong-Chan Rah
The Mystery of Capital by Hernando de Soto
Black History for White People podcast
Where to find Dr. Brooks and Brown Venture Group
Dr. Brooks on LinkedIn
Brown Venture Group website, LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook
Check out more from The Work Seminar
Visit theworkseminar.com or find @TheWorkSeminar on social media.
Sign up for The Work Seminar newsletter to receive updates straight to your inbox.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesse Butts (00:24):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting with Dr.
Chris Brooks, a doctor oftheology from the Minnesota
Graduate School of Theologyturned impact investor.
Dr.
Brooks is now a co-founderand managing partner at Brown
Venture Group, a venturecapital firm exclusively
for Black, Latinx, andIndigenous technology startups.
(00:47):
Chris, welcome to the show.
It's a pleasure to have you on.
Dr. Chris Brooks (00:50):
Thank you.
It's a pleasure to behere with you, Jesse.
Jesse Butts (00:53):
So before we chat about how you found your
way from theology to impactinvesting, can you tell us
a little bit about what youdo at Brown Venture Group
and, by extension, what BrownVenture Group focuses on?
Dr. Chris Brooks (01:06):
Sure.
I'll sort of takeit in reverse order.
So Brown Venture Groupis a traditional sort
of venture capital firm.
And right now we are nearingthe end of raising our
inaugural $50 million fund.
And the way that that worksis we've been raising $50
million in capital whilewe've been also simultaneously
deploying capital, whichis somewhat unique.
(01:28):
Many firms have the luxuryof being able to raise it
all and then like havinga hard stop on the raise
and then deploying it all.
Our entrepreneurs are reallystarved for capital because
of the historic inequities,so we've been raising and
deploying simultaneously.
Jesse Butts (01:42):
And deploying simply means investing
in these companies?
Dr. Chris Brooks (01:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We are interviewingcompanies every single week.
Meeting new foundersevery single week.
And making investmentsalmost every single week.
Jesse Butts (01:56):
Just at a high level, what is the
difference between venturecapital versus ,say, getting
funding from a bank orsomething like private equity?
For any of our listeners whomight not be familiar with
these types of investing terms.
Dr. Chris Brooks (02:09):
Yeah.
So venture capital is sortof like a higher risk way
of making investments, butit's also a higher rate of
return if you get it right.
Bank loans and other formsof like debt financing, those
are very traditionally sort ofwhat they sound like, right.
Like you take out a loan, youhave X percent of interest
you need to pay back.
There's a wide varietyof type of financing for
(02:31):
companies or even midto late stage companies.
Venture is we exchangecash for a percentage of
equity ownership, or, youknow, a number of shares
in an early company.
And then as that companyincreases in value,
we realize that valuebased on our percentage.
And then all of our investorsget paid on the gains.
(02:52):
And then we as partnersalso get paid on the gains.
Jesse Butts (02:55):
Okay.
Got it.
Thank you.
And is venture capital somethingwhere you are owners in a
company for a very long time?
Or is it something where oncethey hit a certain revenue
number or they go publicthat you're paid out and then
you're no longer involved?
How exactly does that work?
Dr. Chris Brooks (03:12):
In our model, we are looking for what we call
liquidity events, which meansthat there could be a company
that goes public through anIPO, an initial public offering.
They could be acquiredin the private market.
So let's say that there's atechnology company that gets
acquired by Apple, right.
That's another way that our fundwould potentially make money.
The, the key is to helpcompanies grow and scale and
(03:36):
increase their valuation,so that when that happens,
this liquidity event, theyhave a much higher valuation
than when they started.
And really, the gains that wemake and that our investors
make are based on the increasein value of the company.
Jesse Butts (03:52):
Okay.
So I'm sure this is going to bea really fascinating discussion
from theology to venturecapital and impact investing.
But I'm curious if wecould go back a little.
What originally prompted youto enroll in grad school?
Why did you want togo beyond undergrad?
Dr. Chris Brooks (04:08):
So the backstory is interesting, as
you say, I'm going to go wayback and work my way forward.
And I promise I'll try tobe as pithy as I can but...
my mother is a Jamaicanimmigrant who immigrated to
the United States in 1963.
She's the first person from hercommunity to leave the island.
To the best we can tell, oneof the first Jamaican folks
to immigrate permanentlyto the state of Minnesota
(04:28):
and to the United States.
So my mother comes from whatwe in America would call
developing nation poverty.
She's out of a communitywhere there wasn't running
water, no electricity, peoplewere bathing in the river.
That sort of a deal.
My father is a foster kidfrom Iowa, and he is the
oldest of several siblings.
They were all placed intodifferent foster homes and
had widely, various differentexperiences in those homes.
(04:51):
So my backstory haseverything to do with sort
of like poverty on bothsides, interracial marriage.
It's a very TwinCities centric story.
So the happenings in the TwinCities are deeply connected
to my backstory, and it'sthrough those lenses...
I was raised in a very Christianfamily in a very Christian home.
And as I've gotten older,I got my undergraduate
(05:12):
degree in theology as well.
And once I started reallydigging into theology, there
were a bunch of questionsspecifically related to race
and economics that I just couldnot find satisfying answers to
from the folks that I was with.
I came out of a veryconservative, predominantly
white denomination, and theyhad almost no thought on race
and economics and what God'slife to the full would look
(05:33):
like in communities of color.
So I've been on a lifelongjourney to figure out what
does human flourishing reallylook like theologically
in communities of color.
Jesse Butts (05:44):
You mentioned getting your undergrad in
theology, and you were drivenby these, these questions.
Was the idea of going tograd school...was there
a vocation in ministrythat you were considering?
Or was it really mostlyfocused on wanting to learn
more and talk with otherpeople and really dive into
(06:04):
these subjects more thanyou did even an undergrad?
Dr. Chris Brooks (06:07):
My undergraduate program
was not what I wouldconsider to be education.
It was indoctrination.
So we were just basicallylike spoonfed a certain
swath of theology.
You'll memorize it, study it,be able to regurgitate it.
And then if you're good atthat, maybe you can get a, a,
ministry position in one ofour denominational churches.
This is actually how mostdenominations work, right.
(06:29):
It's indoctrination into thatparticular brand of theology.
Then I had, you know,like a 20 year career.
And once I got throughmy 20 year career, I had
completely different questions.
And I had long ago begun theexodus from the theological
plantation that I was raised on.
So by the time I got tomy doctoral program, I was
asking questions that weremuch more global in nature.
(06:51):
You know, the, the worldis 90% nonwhite, but
most of the resources arecontrolled by the 10%.
That just makes no sense to me.
Um, pragmaticallynor theologically.
So I just, I entered my doctoralprogram asking completely
different questions of theworld, completely different
questions of the Bible.
And so my goal reallywas to figure out at the
intersection of race,religion, and economics,
(07:13):
what is God's preferred will?
My doctoral dissertation wason a comparative analysis of
justice in the of the earth.
Trying to discern based on therace, the racial composition,
the religious composition,the regional differentiation,
like where do we find humanflourishing in the earth?
And to the best of our ability,is there any correlation
(07:33):
with religion where thathuman flourishing exists?
And I'll just save youthe trouble and steal
you, you know, give youthe punchline right away.
Predominantly white nationsand formerly colonized nations
are not doing so hot becauseof the long, really traumatic
impact of white supremacyglobally for hundreds and
hundreds and hundreds of years.
Jesse Butts (07:55):
By what criteria do you mean
they're not doing so hot?
Dr. Chris Brooks (07:57):
So like when you look at justice metrics,
even looking at the UnitedNations, you know, sustainable
development goals, right.
Like there is acorrelation to capitalism.
I'm not an anticapitalist,but I will say that where
capitalism is really extractive.
Capitalism doesn't actuallycare about living conditions
in poor communities.
Capitalism doesn't careabout health indicators
(08:18):
in poor communities.
Capitalism doesn't care aboutclean water in poor communities.
So wherever you have poorercommunities around the globe
and capitalism is having animpact in those societies,
the metrics just getpretty bad, pretty quickly.
Jesse Butts (08:32):
And you mentioned a 20 year career before you
started your doctoral program.
Were you in the financesector and looking to...
maybe not even careerwise, but just, you know,
intellectually pursue this path?
What were you doing work-wisebefore you started this program?
Dr. Chris Brooks (08:53):
So my career has been quite varied, actually.
I spent my first years outof college working as a
juvenile corrections officer,because I got in trouble with
the law when I was in highschool, but that's a different
story for a different day.
Went from being a juvenilecorrections officer into the
Minneapolis Public Schools.
Spent several years in ofentered my, what I would call
my nonprofit slash ministrypart of my career, where
(09:15):
I was working at variouschurches and Christian
nonprofit organizations.
Ended up having a coupleof national roles where I
was able to really sort oflike go across the whole
nation with my, my expertiseand my responsibilities.
And at the end of all ofthat, I just felt very empty.
I just felt like there's allthis activity and all this
money flying around and all thisChristian jargon flying around.
(09:39):
And Black boys still don'tgraduate in north Minneapolis.
And it all just feltvery, very empty to me.
So the, the last part of mycareer, the very, very tail
end, I was doing corporateconsulting for a Fortune 500
financial services company.
And that's whenmy co-founder, Dr.
Campbell, and I got togetherand started dreaming about
and thinking about andplanning Brown Venture.
Jesse Butts (09:59):
As you were kind of wrestling with what
you can do about all theinequity and injustice,
was the theology program...
did you enroll in that too tokind of inform your approach?
Or how did that, at leastyour that time, how did
that fit into the inklingsof the Brown Venture Group?
Dr. Chris Brooks (10:20):
So my graduate studies sort of trajectory made
its way through several schoolsbefore I completed my doctorate.
I spent some time atthe University of St.
Thomas in anexecutive MBA program.
I spent some time at FullerTheological Seminary in a
global leadership program.
I took a couple of coursesin strategic leadership and
philanthropy and several things.
I chose MinneapolisGraduate School of Theology
(10:42):
because it had a globalworldview and a global
focus, and I really wanted anon-Western doctoral program.
So I chose that schoolfor that reason.
It's exactly what I got.
Many of the graduates, most ofthe graduates are probably from
outside of the United States.
And one of the best thingsthat's happened to me in
the last several years isthat my worldview and my
theological perspectivehave been informed by people
(11:04):
that are not from the West.
I'm getting much more ofan Eastern perspective, and
it is a radically differenttheological worldview.
Once you take theology fromthe East where the Bible
and its writings originatedthen from the West, where
I feel like we've sortof manipulated and twisted
things to fit our agenda.
Jesse Butts (11:22):
If you don't mind me asking, like what are some
examples of how that Easternperspective has shifted your
theological perspective?
Dr. Chris Brooks (11:29):
Well, let me give you one big example.
I think this might actuallybe the primary example.
So one of the core values inthe East is hospitality, right.
Everything is communaland is hospitality driven.
A theological worldview from theEast is very communal in nature.
The Bible was predominantlywritten to communities
not to individuals.
What we've done in the Westis we've taken a very rugged
(11:49):
individualistic approach toscripture and to theology.
And, you know, we hear thesereally, in my opinion, not so
theologically sharp statements.
Like, If you were the onlyperson on planet earth, Jesus
would have died for you.
That actually doesn't fitinto the worldview nor
the narrative of the Bible.
It's just something thatrugged individualists made
up at some point to push arugged individualist gospel.
(12:11):
Salvation in scripture isreally a communal event.
But in Western society, it is aone-on-one like you and Jesus in
a booth having a conversation.
I am grateful for my personalrelationship with Jesus
Christ, but it is just thetip of the iceberg of what
Christianity is supposed to be.
God's concept of justiceand community is a word
called Shalom, right?
(12:32):
Shalom is a word aboutsort of like what Dr.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
called the beloved community.
It is a sense of sharedwellbeing, a sense of
shared responsibility,communal responsibility.
In the West and inAmerica, it's like, I'll
get mine, you get yours.
And you know, I worked hard toget this, I'm going to keep it.
And if you look at many of thenations of the earth, either
(12:53):
the top source of revenue inthose nations, or one of the
top sources of revenue inthose nations, is remittances.
Family members from abroad, fromthe diaspora sending money home.
That is what I think ofwhen I think of God's sort
of way of thinking aboutjustice and community.
We're supposed to beresponsible for each other.
Am I my brother's keeper?
Yes.
Yes, you are actuallyyour brother's keeper.
(13:13):
But in the west, we have goneaway from that way of thinking
for the most part, and we'vetried to satisfy that biblical
mandate by doing what, youknow, philanthropic stuff.
It's just, it's so far fromwhat God originally intended.
Jesse Butts (13:27):
I'm hearing so much, you know, when you
mentioned shared responsibility,the sense of giving, that
sounds like it, it was reallyinforming those early...
or like when you were foundingBrown Venture Group with, I'm
sorry, I forget the, the name ofthe person that you mentioned.
Dr. Chris Brooks (13:40):
Dr.
Paul Campbell.
Jesse Butts (13:42):
Okay.
Were you completing yourdissertation at the time
that you started this?
Just kind of time-line wise,where were you when you
were in your theology programand starting the, your firm?
Dr. Chris Brooks (13:54):
Yeah, I was in the thick of it.
I was doing a lot ofresearch, heads down,
reading tons of books.
, And I, you know, I was ina theology program, but
because of the nature of myprogram, I was reading a lot
of books on global economics.
And reading 444 pageHarvard business books.
And combining them with,you know, some of the
traditional Kierkegaardand CS Lewis and other, you
know, theological works.
(14:16):
But I've always leaned intoeconomics for most of my career.
I've jokingly calledmyself a closet economist.
And I am, I am definitelynot an economist, but I'm
really, really interestedin and passionate about
how money solves problems.
Again, I think this is atthe heart of the gospel.
The heart of the gospelis that God intends for
people to have life tothe full on planet earth.
You can't have life to thefull, if you're not making
(14:38):
a living wage and able toprovide for your family.
Jesse Butts (14:42):
Was that one of the key motivators for
going into, to venturecapital and impact investing?
Did that seem the best routeto, to get people, to be
able to live that full life?
Or the best routefor you, maybe?
Dr. Chris Brooks (14:53):
Yeah, from, from my perspective
and I would speak formy business partner, Dr.
Campbell, as well.
I think we would imaginethat the best way to help
promote advanced life to thefull would be an economic
solution that creates enormousamounts of wealth in a
very short amount of time.
There are, there are severaltypes of business models.
Some of them are likelifestyle businesses.
(15:14):
Some of them are 10 to20 year growth models.
We're looking for companiesthat can scale very rapidly.
Employ a number ofpeople very rapidly.
Create huge economicvalue very rapidly.
And as we invest in foundersof color that are employing
communities of color, thatwhole economy that is sort of
centered within communitiesof color produces a completely
(15:36):
different result than whatwe've seen thus far in American
history and in Western history.
And in some waysin global history.
We need brand new economiesof scale to emerge in and from
communities of color so thatthose folks have the opportunity
to control their own destinyand not be held captive by
economic systems that werenever built for their success.
Jesse Butts (15:56):
Could you talk a little bit about those, those
economic systems that werenot built for their success?
Like what are some of theroadblocks that I might
not be thinking about forcommunities of color as they
try to start businesses?
Scale businesses?
Dr. Chris Brooks (16:10):
So let's just focus on the United
States for a brief moment.
Jesse Butts (16:13):
Yeah.
Dr. Chris Brooks (16:13):
The United States was founded, the economy
was founded on stolen landfrom Indigenous Americans.
And free stolen labor on thebacks of Black African slaves.
An entire economywas built on that.
That is now the largestglobal economy in the world.
And what you will find if youdo any, even just preliminary
research is that those twogroups of people on which
(16:35):
this economy was scaled arebenefiting very little from
this enormous global economy.
If you look into our foundingdocuments as a nation, you
will read that this countrywas founded exclusively for the
benefit of White landowning men.
From both of the documentationthat undergirds our nation
to the actual practices thatwere prevalent in the very
(16:55):
earliest years of this nation,it was never created for people
of color, nor women, to ownanything or be successful.
It was always whitelandowning men that were
supposed to own everythingand control everything.
If that's the seed you plant,that's the tree you eventually
grow 400 years later.
So that's the tree thatwe all live in right now.
And Brown Venture Groupis trying to help America
(17:16):
re-imagine a differentroot system that would
produce a different tree.
Jesse Butts (17:21):
When did you found Brown Venture Group?
And was it, just timeline-wisewas this right after or
during the dissertation?
Dr. Chris Brooks (17:29):
So Brown Venture Group was founded really
sort of like in the middle ofmy research, my dissertation.
I didn't complete mydoctorate until 2020.
And Brown Venture Group wasfounded in June of 2018.
So I was in the throes oflike wrapping up a lot of
my research, getting readyto go into committee and
get pounded on a little bit,all the things, you know.
But this experienceof founding a venture
(17:50):
capital firm was extremelyimportant to my thesis, my
theological premises, my...
you know, when I graduatedwith my undergraduate
degree, I viewed the worldthrough a very narrow lens.
Then my career sort ofbeat that out of me.
As I watched the Christianitythat I had been raised in
be impotent to solve someof the most unsolvable
(18:13):
problems in America.
By the time I got to my doctoraldissertation, I was already
basically gone from the theologyof my undergraduate degree.
Like that stuff just did notwork, did not ring true anymore.
Founding Brown VentureGroup actually concretized
and clarified a lot ofwhat I had been thinking.
That I was then able toleverage, to complete my
(18:34):
doctoral dissertation andbring clarity to what I
wanted to do for the restof my life, which is replace
human suffering with humanflourishing in Jesus' name.
Jesse Butts (18:44):
I can't imagine founding a business
and completing a doctoralprogram simultaneously.
I'm kind of curious fromlike just a practical,
logistical perspective,how did you achieve that?
Dr. Chris Brooks (18:57):
So I'll also add, before I answer the
question, I have a wife of25 years and four children.
Jesse Butts (19:02):
Congratulations.
Dr. Chris Brooks (19:03):
So, you know, founding a company.
And I wasn't gettingpaid by the company.
So we were doingthat in the margins.
I had a full-time job, a wifeand four kids, and a doctoral
dissertation, all of that.
So what did it require of me?
It required waking up beforethe sun was up almost every
single day and going to bedlong after everybody else was
in bed almost every single day.
It was an extreme sacrificeif you look at it through
(19:26):
the lens of sacrifice.
But I really see it as likebeing obedient to my calling.
So it didn't feel like labor.
It didn't feel likeI was doing anything
particularly exceptional.
It felt like I wasbeing obedient to the
call of God on my life.
And therefore this, thisseason of my life, when I
was probably the busiest I'veever been is one of the most
life-giving seasons I've everhad in my 47 years of life.
Jesse Butts (19:48):
Is what you're doing now...
does that feel like labor?
Or, you know, becausementioned at that point,
it didn't feel like labor.
It felt like, I'm sorry if I'mmincing your words, but, you
know, answering your calling.
Is it still feeling like that?
Or has there been any kindof shift in that orientation?
Dr. Ch (20:04):
That's a great question.
It's definitely labor.
Uh, now, you know, nowI'm not doing the doctoral
program, and I don't havea different full-time job.
So really right now it'sjust like Brown Venture
Group full-time plus,and then my family.
The laborious part of what'sgoing on inside of Brown
Venture Group is really havingto interact with systems
that were never built for thesuccess of people of color.
(20:26):
It is really challenging to get,you know, systems that have a
root system of white supremacyto understand why they would
ever invest for the flourishingof, of people of color.
And it's doubly challengingwhen those people are Christian
and you have an expectationthat reading the same scripture
and serving the same God, youwould have some sort of insider
(20:48):
language to convince them.
And in the current eraof American history, that
stuff just doesn't work.
The predominantly Whiteconservative church does not
seem to care about what's goingon in communities of color.
Even though, according tomy Bible, we're all brothers
and sisters in Christ.
It just doesn't seem to matter.
Jesse Butts (21:05):
You're not seeing this cooperation in
a lot of the White Christiancommunities, conservative
Christian communities.
Are White, liberal Christiancommunities living up to this?
Or are you experiencingissues in that area as well?
Dr. Chris Brooks (21:18):
So, let me give you a term.
Let me just do a little bitof wordsmithing with you.
I don't think what Godrequires of his body is
cooperation or collaboration.
I think that's a really low bar.
I think what Godmandates and requires is
interdependence, right?
If one part suffers everypart suffers with it.
If one part rejoices everypart rejoices with it.
This is part of the reason whyit's so baffling that we can't
(21:41):
get the majority of the churchin America to suffer with us.
Like it just, it, it's,it's, it's unfathomable.
In terms of the quote, unquoteliberal Christians, I'm not
sure that we're getting vastlydifferent results from that
group of people, because whatyou, what you got to understand
is that both sides have a lotto, or they feel like they've
(22:02):
got a lot to lose economically.
If people of colorstart to rise up.
And you know, you can beconservative or liberal, and
we have way more liberalpeople sort of leaning in with
us than conservative people,but it's really challenging
as a person of color to geteither side of the aisle
to open up their wallet.
In my mind, that's reallyalmost like the final test of
(22:22):
whether or not you're actuallyleaning into racial justice.
I wouldn't even callit racial justice.
I would call itbiblical justice.
If you're leaning intobiblical justice, there's
going to be a cost.
And it's highly probablethat that cost will
be financial as well.
Jesse Butts (22:36):
What are you on a day-to-day basis doing
at Brown Venture to achievethis biblical justice?
And I, I mean, this in kindof just, I'm curious what
you, what a venture capitalistactually spends their time
doing, but also, you know,if you want to take kind of
a loftier angle to that too,I'm curious on both ends.
Dr. Chris Brooks (22:56):
So starting very, very lofty.
One of the things thatwe are trying to do is
create a new case for humanflourishing in the earth.
We have to put together,piece together human history
and prove that, economics,global economics, has not
worked for all communities.
Therefore it's notbiblically just, right.
(23:16):
If one part suffers everypart suffers with it.
If one part rejoices everypart rejoices with it.
So building that case, andtrying to get a globally
united case for investment.
I mean, that's, that's prettylofty, but we're working
on that every single day.
Tactically, what we do asventure capitalists is we...
there, there are two reallyprimary things that we do.
(23:36):
Raise and deploy capital.
So we spend a lot of ourtime talking to potential
investors or investors.
And we spend a lot of ourtime talking to founders
of companies, listening totheir ideas, making decisions
about whether or not thoseideas are investment ready.
And-or investment worthy, interms of what we've decided that
we want to make investments in.
Jesse Butts (23:57):
You mentioned earlier that you were doing
work you, you just weren't, Idon't want to misquote you...
maybe you know, you weren'tfeeling fulfilled by.
Can you talk a bit abouthow you made that break?
Or any words of advice youmight have for, a listener who
wants to change the full-timejob or go back to school
or whatever it is that, youknow, pardon the pun, takes a
(24:20):
little bit of a leap of faith.
How did you personallychange directions?
Dr. Chris Brooks (24:26):
My answer is true of, of myself.
It's true of us as a firm.
And I believe it's trueof the founders that
we make investments in.
The foundation ofeverything is your why.
W H Y.
You have to be extremelyclear and have very, very
deep convictions about whatyou want to do, and why.
And if you have a really,really deep, compelling, why,
(24:49):
then when the winds startblowing and people disrespect
you, and times are toughand, you know, the enemy is
attacking, and all the things...
you can lean back into yourwhy and say, Yes, I see that
the world's falling apartaround me, but I am not
giving up because the reasonI do this really matters.
So like at Brown VentureGroup we started our
company really based offof some very simple data.
(25:12):
And the very simple datawas that in 2018, when Dr.
Campbell and I started, youknow, giving some serious
thought to this, women inAmerica were getting less than
1% of, of investment in theventure capital industry, a $70
trillion industry at the time,women were getting less than 1%.
Black folks in Americawere getting less than 1%.
Latinx folks weregetting less than 1%.
(25:33):
Indigenous people werebasically not even on the map.
So if you took Black people,Latinx people, women and
indigenous people and putthem all into a big ball, less
than 5% of venture was goingto all of those categories.
And not only did Paul and I, Dr.
Campbell and I, feellike that was ridiculous.
We felt like that was a stenchin the nostrils of a holy God.
(25:54):
It was deeplytheological for us.
So we approach our workas we have a theological
responsibility, a biblicalresponsibility to break
this unjust system so thatGod's human flourishing can
advance in all communities.
So when times get tough, andthe wind starts blowing, and
people think we're crazy and,you know, investors that make
(26:16):
promises, don't keep them.
We just remember we're on theside of biblical justice here,
and we're gonna keep going.
Jesse Butts (26:22):
That figure is so startling to me.
When I...
when that combined cohort, Ibelieve you said less than 5%?
Dr. Chris Brooks (26:32):
Less than 5%.
And that includes womenwho are 50% of the
United States population.
Jesse Butts (26:37):
I am curious, just going back a little, when you
were talking about your Why.
I'm curious how, you know,finance became the way
to implement your Why?
Did you always kind ofhave a head for numbers?
Why are you takingon your mission with
finance versus other way?
Dr. Chris Brooks (26:56):
So that's a complex question.
What I will say is, many of us,maybe most of us in communities
of color recognize that despiteall of the gains we got from
the hard work during the CivilRights Movement and before,
and since really, economicswas not correlated as much
with some of the politicalgains and policy gains, and,
(27:17):
you know, economics is thefinal frontier for true equity,
true, you know, civil rights.
And so when I worked inMinneapolis Public Schools,
Hennepin County JuvenileCorrections, the nonprofits
sector, the one thing thatwas always missing were
economic solutions thatwere sustainable, right.
Like grant money comes in.
Something gets started.
(27:38):
There's amazing work going on.
Grant money runs out.
That thing stops.
You hire some amazingpeople, the funding stops.
Those amazing peoplego do something else.
You know, you investmoney in a community.
That community grows to apoint where the folks that
live there can't even affordto live there anymore.
They get pushed out.
All of the arrows pointedvery directly to the
center of economics.
(27:59):
So we knew, just sort ofintuitively, that any solution
that we proposed would have tohave economics at the center
and actually would have tohave theology at the center.
And the second concentriccircle outside of biblical
theology would have to beeconomics and economic theology.
So we are really, in my opinion,coming from a biblical economic
center, looking at life to thefull, human flourishing, as
(28:24):
God's mandate to his people.
And I'll just restatethis one more time.
Although I've probably saidit a hundred ways already.
It's it's confounding thatpeople who claim to love Jesus
and study his word cannot seethat the way that the American
church is currently operatingis not producing the desired
results that God has mandated.
It's, it's, it's confounding.
(28:45):
I can't understand why it'sso hard to make this argument.
Jesse Butts (28:50):
When you were talking about answering your
calling, do you think thatmeans that you need to, to love
the actual work you're doing?
Or is it more in yourexperience, and I mean just
speaking for you personally, isit more about loving the goal
or the mission and just doingwhat it takes to, to get there?
(29:13):
Like whatever your specialtalents or experience are
and applying those to that,that passion, that mission
that you, that you have?
Dr. Chris Brooks (29:21):
I have a tattoo on my left bicep.
It's the Hebrewword for covenant.
Brit.
And I have that word tattooedon my left bicep because in my
opinion, it is after the namesof our God, the most important
word in all of holy scripture.
I view calling as covenant.
My calling does not dependon what I ate for breakfast,
whether or not my relationshipsare going well, where my
(29:43):
emotional state is at.
A covenant's a covenant.
And when I lock in on God'scall on my life and I say,
Yes, Lord, here am I, sendme, I'm establishing a
covenant with the Lord.
So my pursuit of biblicaljustice, biblical economic
justice, that's a covenant.
Jesse Butts (30:00):
How do you describe your relationship to work?
How large of a role is itplaying in your life now?
Dr. Chris Brooks (30:08):
That's a really interesting question.
I believe that humanvocation is hardwired into
human beings by God, right.
Tend the garden.
So I see it as, you know, partof living an integrated life.
Now I'm not on my laptop at8:00 AM or 8:00 PM when I'm
sitting with my family, right?
So you have to draw some clearboundaries between the various
(30:29):
parts of your life, especiallybetween your vocational life and
your avocational family life.
But I really do try my bestto live an integrated life.
So like my family isextremely aware of the
work that I'm doing.
My children are being raisedon the same principles
that I wake up and fightfor every single day.
I am not a different humanbeing in, in any environment.
I am the same me at churchas I am at a gala as I am in
(30:52):
my living room as I am in aboardroom as I am when I'm
down at the juvenile detentioncenter counseling teenagers.
I'm the same Chris Brooks.
Because I believe thatthat is the only way to
actually achieve any mission.
You can't have variousiterations of yourself.
You've got to be you andlive a fully integrated
life everywhere you go.
Jesse Butts (31:15):
What are some questions you would recommend
someone who's out of grad schoolor maybe still in grad school,
and they're thinking about ... Iknow for you, theology is deeply
integrated into what you do, butfor somebody who has a calling,
you know, that's not a clearcorrelation, at least to them,
related to what they studied?
You know, what should peoplekind of at a crossroads, maybe
(31:37):
that's the better way to phraseit, be asking themselves to
find work or, or that, thatvocation that you mentioned, to,
to see what they can do, wherethey can apply their talents?
Dr. Chris Brooks (31:48):
I am of the belief that every human being
is uniquely created by God,in his image for a specific
purpose, which might soundchurchy or whatever, but there's
only one person who was born inyour family of origin, in your
birth order, in your communityof origin at the exact moment
in human history that youwere born, that has had your
series of life experiencesthat God has embedded with
(32:10):
your passions, your gifts.
So every human being is a veryunique one of one, and if you
don't bring what you've got tothe earth, we just don't get it.
Nobody else can bring it.
There's no other you.
So my admonition to everyhuman being, wherever they
are is to really lean in to,Why did God place me on Earth
(32:31):
for such a time as this?
And lean into personalitytests and inventories.
And interview your parentsif they're still alive.
And ask them, like, Whatwas I like when I was a kid?
Like, what did younotice about me?
Interview your spouse,your children, your
coworkers, whatever, right?
Like figure out to the bestof your ability why God
has placed you on the earthfor such a time as this.
(32:53):
And then just takeone step at a time.
And let God's word be alamp unto your feet and
a light unto your path.
You may not see the entire road,but as long as you're walking
where God's leading, every stepis guaranteed to be effective.
Jesse Butts (33:07):
Were there any important books or lectures
or, or anything really,whether, you know, related to
theology or not, that helpedyou find your path that you
would recommend to others?
Dr. Chris Brooks (33:20):
So many that it's hard to list them.
I will say that almostanything that is written
or spoken by Mark Charles,an Indigenous theologian,
is extremely important.
Dr.
Soong-Chan Rah haswritten some books.
In fact, Mark Charles andSoong-Chan Rah coauthored, a
book called Something Truths.
So they have this book.
(33:40):
I wish I had thename in front of me.
I wish I hadn't, I didn'tknow you were gonna
ask me that question.
And I believe it's calledInconvenient Truths.
But they just releasedit a couple of years ago.
It's, it's basicallylike the real telling
of American history.
From the foundingdocuments forward.
And that stuff hasbeen super helpful.
There's a book by an economistnamed Hernando de Soto called
The Mystery of Capital.
(34:02):
It's probably the most importantbook to me after the Bible.
He's not a theologian, but itactually does create a theology
of the poor and helps meunderstand that they are not the
problem; they're the solution.
We like to think sort of froma top-down perspective, like
those with all the wealth andmoney like Elon Musk and Jeff
Bezos, clearly, they're theones who have the answers.
No, every human beingbears God's image.
(34:24):
So let's listen to the onesthat have been marginalized and
maybe we can create a betterfuture state of the world.
So those have beenextremely important.
For those, especiallythat want to lean into
stuff related to race.
There's this podcast calledBlack History for White People.
It's fantastic.
It, it is fantastic and helps.
It's really more like froma sociology perspective
(34:46):
or an anthropologicalperspective, but it helps
explain some of the thoughtsand behaviors in America.
And it's not a huge leap tosort of cross reference those
with scripture and figure outlike some of the things we're
saying and doing are definitelynot in line with God's will.
Jesse Butts (35:01):
I'll admit this is a purely self-interested
or selfish question.
I'm a 37 year old White man.
I've had a lot of advantagesfor no other reason that I
was just born this, this race,you know, this gender, and
I'm comfortable in my gender.
You know, for people likeme who are in this position,
(35:23):
where can we start to, to helpthese marginalized communities?
Whether it's, you know, throughhelping their businesses or
some other ways to ensure thatthey're achieving a living wage
and a better quality of life.
Like, what are the things thatyou would recommend people like
me be thinking about and doing?
Dr. Chris Brooks (35:45):
So my answer's going to be
controversial, Jesse.
I apologize to you in advance.
I don't know that therecan be any progress made,
especially from white malesin America without a root,
a taproot of repentance.
Even just living and breathingin this society and being
okay with the injusticesdone to women and people of
color requires a taproot ofrepentance, because without
(36:08):
that repentance perspective,that posture of repentance, you
can read whatever you want.
You can make friends of whateverrace and gender you want to.
Like, you can gohang out in the hood.
None of it's going to matterif you don't honestly allow
God to break you over thefact that America is a very
unjust place when it comesto people of color and women.
And it's, it's a challengingjourney, but what I will tell
(36:30):
you is, for the White men, andthere are many, many, many, many
of them that I interact withon a regular basis that have
leaned in to like, God breakmy heart for the things that
break your heart, like for real.
The world that they walk intoon the other side of that
repentance is just beautifuland has all of the opportunity,
even economic opportunity.
Most of the world's innovationin the future state of the
(36:50):
world will be coming fromwomen and people of color.
So.
I mean, there's a pragmaticaspect to this, but I
think priority before youget to any of the doing,
I think there needs to bea really hard conversation
between you and God.
Jesse Butts (37:03):
Is there a version of that for
nonbelievers, atheists?
Dr. Chris Brooks (37:08):
That's a really challenging
question to ask me.
I, I believe that there is.
I can't speak fromthe perspective, for
example, of Islam.
I don't know what Allahmandates Muslims to do.
What the God of the Biblemandates is that you really,
really, really pay specialattention to the widow, the
(37:28):
orphan, and the foreigner.
And who are thosefolks in America today?
They're immigrants fleeingpersecution, trying to
make their way to America.
They're single moms who, youknow, all the Black men in
their community, or some of theBlack men in their community,
have been killed by the policeor locked up because there's
a disproportionate targetingof Black men in America.
They're the children of thosefathers that are incarcerated.
(37:50):
Many of them wrongfullyincarcerated, who have been,
in a sense, orphaned becausethe state keeps locking up
all their dads and uncles.
The Bible would tell us asGod's people, we better do a...
like, pay specialattention to them.
And I believe that Jesus spendsa lot of his time walking
along the margins of society.
Because they are notthe problem, those
folks in the margins.
(38:11):
They're the solution.
Jesse Butts (38:13):
Well, thank you Dr.
Brooks for thiswonderful conversation.
I appreciate your time.
Dr. Chris Brooks (38:17):
It's been great talking to you, Jesse.
I hope I talk to you again.
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting with Dr.
Chris Brooks, a doctor oftheology from the Minnesota
Graduate School of Theologyturned impact investor.
Dr.
Brooks is now a co-founderand managing partner at Brown
Venture Group, a venturecapital firm exclusively
for Black, Latinx, andIndigenous technology startups.
(00:47):
Chris, welcome to the show.
It's a pleasure to have you on.
Dr. Chris Brooks (00:50):
Thank you.
It's a pleasure to behere with you, Jesse.
Jesse Butts (00:53):
So before we chat about how you found your
way from theology to impactinvesting, can you tell us
a little bit about what youdo at Brown Venture Group
and, by extension, what BrownVenture Group focuses on?
Dr. Chris Brooks (01:06):
Sure.
I'll sort of takeit in reverse order.
So Brown Venture Groupis a traditional sort
of venture capital firm.
And right now we are nearingthe end of raising our
inaugural $50 million fund.
And the way that that worksis we've been raising $50
million in capital whilewe've been also simultaneously
deploying capital, whichis somewhat unique.
(01:28):
Many firms have the luxuryof being able to raise it
all and then like havinga hard stop on the raise
and then deploying it all.
Our entrepreneurs are reallystarved for capital because
of the historic inequities,so we've been raising and
deploying simultaneously.
Jesse Butts (01:42):
And deploying simply means investing
in these companies?
Dr. Chris Brooks (01:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We are interviewingcompanies every single week.
Meeting new foundersevery single week.
And making investmentsalmost every single week.
Jesse Butts (01:56):
Just at a high level, what is the
difference between venturecapital versus ,say, getting
funding from a bank orsomething like private equity?
For any of our listeners whomight not be familiar with
these types of investing terms.
Dr. Chris Brooks (02:09):
Yeah.
So venture capital is sortof like a higher risk way
of making investments, butit's also a higher rate of
return if you get it right.
Bank loans and other formsof like debt financing, those
are very traditionally sort ofwhat they sound like, right.
Like you take out a loan, youhave X percent of interest
you need to pay back.
There's a wide varietyof type of financing for
(02:31):
companies or even midto late stage companies.
Venture is we exchangecash for a percentage of
equity ownership, or, youknow, a number of shares
in an early company.
And then as that companyincreases in value,
we realize that valuebased on our percentage.
And then all of our investorsget paid on the gains.
(02:52):
And then we as partnersalso get paid on the gains.
Jesse Butts (02:55):
Okay.
Got it.
Thank you.
And is venture capital somethingwhere you are owners in a
company for a very long time?
Or is it something where oncethey hit a certain revenue
number or they go publicthat you're paid out and then
you're no longer involved?
How exactly does that work?
Dr. Chris Brooks (03:12):
In our model, we are looking for what we call
liquidity events, which meansthat there could be a company
that goes public through anIPO, an initial public offering.
They could be acquiredin the private market.
So let's say that there's atechnology company that gets
acquired by Apple, right.
That's another way that our fundwould potentially make money.
The, the key is to helpcompanies grow and scale and
(03:36):
increase their valuation,so that when that happens,
this liquidity event, theyhave a much higher valuation
than when they started.
And really, the gains that wemake and that our investors
make are based on the increasein value of the company.
Jesse Butts (03:52):
Okay.
So I'm sure this is going to bea really fascinating discussion
from theology to venturecapital and impact investing.
But I'm curious if wecould go back a little.
What originally prompted youto enroll in grad school?
Why did you want togo beyond undergrad?
Dr. Chris Brooks (04:08):
So the backstory is interesting, as
you say, I'm going to go wayback and work my way forward.
And I promise I'll try tobe as pithy as I can but...
my mother is a Jamaicanimmigrant who immigrated to
the United States in 1963.
She's the first person from hercommunity to leave the island.
To the best we can tell, oneof the first Jamaican folks
to immigrate permanentlyto the state of Minnesota
(04:28):
and to the United States.
So my mother comes from whatwe in America would call
developing nation poverty.
She's out of a communitywhere there wasn't running
water, no electricity, peoplewere bathing in the river.
That sort of a deal.
My father is a foster kidfrom Iowa, and he is the
oldest of several siblings.
They were all placed intodifferent foster homes and
had widely, various differentexperiences in those homes.
(04:51):
So my backstory haseverything to do with sort
of like poverty on bothsides, interracial marriage.
It's a very TwinCities centric story.
So the happenings in the TwinCities are deeply connected
to my backstory, and it'sthrough those lenses...
I was raised in a very Christianfamily in a very Christian home.
And as I've gotten older,I got my undergraduate
(05:12):
degree in theology as well.
And once I started reallydigging into theology, there
were a bunch of questionsspecifically related to race
and economics that I just couldnot find satisfying answers to
from the folks that I was with.
I came out of a veryconservative, predominantly
white denomination, and theyhad almost no thought on race
and economics and what God'slife to the full would look
(05:33):
like in communities of color.
So I've been on a lifelongjourney to figure out what
does human flourishing reallylook like theologically
in communities of color.
Jesse Butts (05:44):
You mentioned getting your undergrad in
theology, and you were drivenby these, these questions.
Was the idea of going tograd school...was there
a vocation in ministrythat you were considering?
Or was it really mostlyfocused on wanting to learn
more and talk with otherpeople and really dive into
(06:04):
these subjects more thanyou did even an undergrad?
Dr. Chris Brooks (06:07):
My undergraduate program
was not what I wouldconsider to be education.
It was indoctrination.
So we were just basicallylike spoonfed a certain
swath of theology.
You'll memorize it, study it,be able to regurgitate it.
And then if you're good atthat, maybe you can get a, a,
ministry position in one ofour denominational churches.
This is actually how mostdenominations work, right.
(06:29):
It's indoctrination into thatparticular brand of theology.
Then I had, you know,like a 20 year career.
And once I got throughmy 20 year career, I had
completely different questions.
And I had long ago begun theexodus from the theological
plantation that I was raised on.
So by the time I got tomy doctoral program, I was
asking questions that weremuch more global in nature.
(06:51):
You know, the, the worldis 90% nonwhite, but
most of the resources arecontrolled by the 10%.
That just makes no sense to me.
Um, pragmaticallynor theologically.
So I just, I entered my doctoralprogram asking completely
different questions of theworld, completely different
questions of the Bible.
And so my goal reallywas to figure out at the
intersection of race,religion, and economics,
(07:13):
what is God's preferred will?
My doctoral dissertation wason a comparative analysis of
justice in the of the earth.
Trying to discern based on therace, the racial composition,
the religious composition,the regional differentiation,
like where do we find humanflourishing in the earth?
And to the best of our ability,is there any correlation
(07:33):
with religion where thathuman flourishing exists?
And I'll just save youthe trouble and steal
you, you know, give youthe punchline right away.
Predominantly white nationsand formerly colonized nations
are not doing so hot becauseof the long, really traumatic
impact of white supremacyglobally for hundreds and
hundreds and hundreds of years.
Jesse Butts (07:55):
By what criteria do you mean
they're not doing so hot?
Dr. Chris Brooks (07:57):
So like when you look at justice metrics,
even looking at the UnitedNations, you know, sustainable
development goals, right.
Like there is acorrelation to capitalism.
I'm not an anticapitalist,but I will say that where
capitalism is really extractive.
Capitalism doesn't actuallycare about living conditions
in poor communities.
Capitalism doesn't careabout health indicators
(08:18):
in poor communities.
Capitalism doesn't care aboutclean water in poor communities.
So wherever you have poorercommunities around the globe
and capitalism is having animpact in those societies,
the metrics just getpretty bad, pretty quickly.
Jesse Butts (08:32):
And you mentioned a 20 year career before you
started your doctoral program.
Were you in the financesector and looking to...
maybe not even careerwise, but just, you know,
intellectually pursue this path?
What were you doing work-wisebefore you started this program?
Dr. Chris Brooks (08:53):
So my career has been quite varied, actually.
I spent my first years outof college working as a
juvenile corrections officer,because I got in trouble with
the law when I was in highschool, but that's a different
story for a different day.
Went from being a juvenilecorrections officer into the
Minneapolis Public Schools.
Spent several years in ofentered my, what I would call
my nonprofit slash ministrypart of my career, where
(09:15):
I was working at variouschurches and Christian
nonprofit organizations.
Ended up having a coupleof national roles where I
was able to really sort oflike go across the whole
nation with my, my expertiseand my responsibilities.
And at the end of all ofthat, I just felt very empty.
I just felt like there's allthis activity and all this
money flying around and all thisChristian jargon flying around.
(09:39):
And Black boys still don'tgraduate in north Minneapolis.
And it all just feltvery, very empty to me.
So the, the last part of mycareer, the very, very tail
end, I was doing corporateconsulting for a Fortune 500
financial services company.
And that's whenmy co-founder, Dr.
Campbell, and I got togetherand started dreaming about
and thinking about andplanning Brown Venture.
Jesse Butts (09:59):
As you were kind of wrestling with what
you can do about all theinequity and injustice,
was the theology program...
did you enroll in that too tokind of inform your approach?
Or how did that, at leastyour that time, how did
that fit into the inklingsof the Brown Venture Group?
Dr. Chris Brooks (10:20):
So my graduate studies sort of trajectory made
its way through several schoolsbefore I completed my doctorate.
I spent some time atthe University of St.
Thomas in anexecutive MBA program.
I spent some time at FullerTheological Seminary in a
global leadership program.
I took a couple of coursesin strategic leadership and
philanthropy and several things.
I chose MinneapolisGraduate School of Theology
(10:42):
because it had a globalworldview and a global
focus, and I really wanted anon-Western doctoral program.
So I chose that schoolfor that reason.
It's exactly what I got.
Many of the graduates, most ofthe graduates are probably from
outside of the United States.
And one of the best thingsthat's happened to me in
the last several years isthat my worldview and my
theological perspectivehave been informed by people
(11:04):
that are not from the West.
I'm getting much more ofan Eastern perspective, and
it is a radically differenttheological worldview.
Once you take theology fromthe East where the Bible
and its writings originatedthen from the West, where
I feel like we've sortof manipulated and twisted
things to fit our agenda.
Jesse Butts (11:22):
If you don't mind me asking, like what are some
examples of how that Easternperspective has shifted your
theological perspective?
Dr. Chris Brooks (11:29):
Well, let me give you one big example.
I think this might actuallybe the primary example.
So one of the core values inthe East is hospitality, right.
Everything is communaland is hospitality driven.
A theological worldview from theEast is very communal in nature.
The Bible was predominantlywritten to communities
not to individuals.
What we've done in the Westis we've taken a very rugged
(11:49):
individualistic approach toscripture and to theology.
And, you know, we hear thesereally, in my opinion, not so
theologically sharp statements.
Like, If you were the onlyperson on planet earth, Jesus
would have died for you.
That actually doesn't fitinto the worldview nor
the narrative of the Bible.
It's just something thatrugged individualists made
up at some point to push arugged individualist gospel.
(12:11):
Salvation in scripture isreally a communal event.
But in Western society, it is aone-on-one like you and Jesus in
a booth having a conversation.
I am grateful for my personalrelationship with Jesus
Christ, but it is just thetip of the iceberg of what
Christianity is supposed to be.
God's concept of justiceand community is a word
called Shalom, right?
(12:32):
Shalom is a word aboutsort of like what Dr.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
called the beloved community.
It is a sense of sharedwellbeing, a sense of
shared responsibility,communal responsibility.
In the West and inAmerica, it's like, I'll
get mine, you get yours.
And you know, I worked hard toget this, I'm going to keep it.
And if you look at many of thenations of the earth, either
(12:53):
the top source of revenue inthose nations, or one of the
top sources of revenue inthose nations, is remittances.
Family members from abroad, fromthe diaspora sending money home.
That is what I think ofwhen I think of God's sort
of way of thinking aboutjustice and community.
We're supposed to beresponsible for each other.
Am I my brother's keeper?
Yes.
Yes, you are actuallyyour brother's keeper.
(13:13):
But in the west, we have goneaway from that way of thinking
for the most part, and we'vetried to satisfy that biblical
mandate by doing what, youknow, philanthropic stuff.
It's just, it's so far fromwhat God originally intended.
Jesse Butts (13:27):
I'm hearing so much, you know, when you
mentioned shared responsibility,the sense of giving, that
sounds like it, it was reallyinforming those early...
or like when you were foundingBrown Venture Group with, I'm
sorry, I forget the, the name ofthe person that you mentioned.
Dr. Chris Brooks (13:40):
Dr.
Paul Campbell.
Jesse Butts (13:42):
Okay.
Were you completing yourdissertation at the time
that you started this?
Just kind of time-line wise,where were you when you
were in your theology programand starting the, your firm?
Dr. Chris Brooks (13:54):
Yeah, I was in the thick of it.
I was doing a lot ofresearch, heads down,
reading tons of books.
, And I, you know, I was ina theology program, but
because of the nature of myprogram, I was reading a lot
of books on global economics.
And reading 444 pageHarvard business books.
And combining them with,you know, some of the
traditional Kierkegaardand CS Lewis and other, you
know, theological works.
(14:16):
But I've always leaned intoeconomics for most of my career.
I've jokingly calledmyself a closet economist.
And I am, I am definitelynot an economist, but I'm
really, really interestedin and passionate about
how money solves problems.
Again, I think this is atthe heart of the gospel.
The heart of the gospelis that God intends for
people to have life tothe full on planet earth.
You can't have life to thefull, if you're not making
(14:38):
a living wage and able toprovide for your family.
Jesse Butts (14:42):
Was that one of the key motivators for
going into, to venturecapital and impact investing?
Did that seem the best routeto, to get people, to be
able to live that full life?
Or the best routefor you, maybe?
Dr. Chris Brooks (14:53):
Yeah, from, from my perspective
and I would speak formy business partner, Dr.
Campbell, as well.
I think we would imaginethat the best way to help
promote advanced life to thefull would be an economic
solution that creates enormousamounts of wealth in a
very short amount of time.
There are, there are severaltypes of business models.
Some of them are likelifestyle businesses.
(15:14):
Some of them are 10 to20 year growth models.
We're looking for companiesthat can scale very rapidly.
Employ a number ofpeople very rapidly.
Create huge economicvalue very rapidly.
And as we invest in foundersof color that are employing
communities of color, thatwhole economy that is sort of
centered within communitiesof color produces a completely
(15:36):
different result than whatwe've seen thus far in American
history and in Western history.
And in some waysin global history.
We need brand new economiesof scale to emerge in and from
communities of color so thatthose folks have the opportunity
to control their own destinyand not be held captive by
economic systems that werenever built for their success.
Jesse Butts (15:56):
Could you talk a little bit about those, those
economic systems that werenot built for their success?
Like what are some of theroadblocks that I might
not be thinking about forcommunities of color as they
try to start businesses?
Scale businesses?
Dr. Chris Brooks (16:10):
So let's just focus on the United
States for a brief moment.
Jesse Butts (16:13):
Yeah.
Dr. Chris Brooks (16:13):
The United States was founded, the economy
was founded on stolen landfrom Indigenous Americans.
And free stolen labor on thebacks of Black African slaves.
An entire economywas built on that.
That is now the largestglobal economy in the world.
And what you will find if youdo any, even just preliminary
research is that those twogroups of people on which
(16:35):
this economy was scaled arebenefiting very little from
this enormous global economy.
If you look into our foundingdocuments as a nation, you
will read that this countrywas founded exclusively for the
benefit of White landowning men.
From both of the documentationthat undergirds our nation
to the actual practices thatwere prevalent in the very
(16:55):
earliest years of this nation,it was never created for people
of color, nor women, to ownanything or be successful.
It was always whitelandowning men that were
supposed to own everythingand control everything.
If that's the seed you plant,that's the tree you eventually
grow 400 years later.
So that's the tree thatwe all live in right now.
And Brown Venture Groupis trying to help America
(17:16):
re-imagine a differentroot system that would
produce a different tree.
Jesse Butts (17:21):
When did you found Brown Venture Group?
And was it, just timeline-wisewas this right after or
during the dissertation?
Dr. Chris Brooks (17:29):
So Brown Venture Group was founded really
sort of like in the middle ofmy research, my dissertation.
I didn't complete mydoctorate until 2020.
And Brown Venture Group wasfounded in June of 2018.
So I was in the throes oflike wrapping up a lot of
my research, getting readyto go into committee and
get pounded on a little bit,all the things, you know.
But this experienceof founding a venture
(17:50):
capital firm was extremelyimportant to my thesis, my
theological premises, my...
you know, when I graduatedwith my undergraduate
degree, I viewed the worldthrough a very narrow lens.
Then my career sort ofbeat that out of me.
As I watched the Christianitythat I had been raised in
be impotent to solve someof the most unsolvable
(18:13):
problems in America.
By the time I got to my doctoraldissertation, I was already
basically gone from the theologyof my undergraduate degree.
Like that stuff just did notwork, did not ring true anymore.
Founding Brown VentureGroup actually concretized
and clarified a lot ofwhat I had been thinking.
That I was then able toleverage, to complete my
(18:34):
doctoral dissertation andbring clarity to what I
wanted to do for the restof my life, which is replace
human suffering with humanflourishing in Jesus' name.
Jesse Butts (18:44):
I can't imagine founding a business
and completing a doctoralprogram simultaneously.
I'm kind of curious fromlike just a practical,
logistical perspective,how did you achieve that?
Dr. Chris Brooks (18:57):
So I'll also add, before I answer the
question, I have a wife of25 years and four children.
Jesse Butts (19:02):
Congratulations.
Dr. Chris Brooks (19:03):
So, you know, founding a company.
And I wasn't gettingpaid by the company.
So we were doingthat in the margins.
I had a full-time job, a wifeand four kids, and a doctoral
dissertation, all of that.
So what did it require of me?
It required waking up beforethe sun was up almost every
single day and going to bedlong after everybody else was
in bed almost every single day.
It was an extreme sacrificeif you look at it through
(19:26):
the lens of sacrifice.
But I really see it as likebeing obedient to my calling.
So it didn't feel like labor.
It didn't feel likeI was doing anything
particularly exceptional.
It felt like I wasbeing obedient to the
call of God on my life.
And therefore this, thisseason of my life, when I
was probably the busiest I'veever been is one of the most
life-giving seasons I've everhad in my 47 years of life.
Jesse Butts (19:48):
Is what you're doing now...
does that feel like labor?
Or, you know, becausementioned at that point,
it didn't feel like labor.
It felt like, I'm sorry if I'mmincing your words, but, you
know, answering your calling.
Is it still feeling like that?
Or has there been any kindof shift in that orientation?
Dr. Ch (20:04):
That's a great question.
It's definitely labor.
Uh, now, you know, nowI'm not doing the doctoral
program, and I don't havea different full-time job.
So really right now it'sjust like Brown Venture
Group full-time plus,and then my family.
The laborious part of what'sgoing on inside of Brown
Venture Group is really havingto interact with systems
that were never built for thesuccess of people of color.
(20:26):
It is really challenging to get,you know, systems that have a
root system of white supremacyto understand why they would
ever invest for the flourishingof, of people of color.
And it's doubly challengingwhen those people are Christian
and you have an expectationthat reading the same scripture
and serving the same God, youwould have some sort of insider
(20:48):
language to convince them.
And in the current eraof American history, that
stuff just doesn't work.
The predominantly Whiteconservative church does not
seem to care about what's goingon in communities of color.
Even though, according tomy Bible, we're all brothers
and sisters in Christ.
It just doesn't seem to matter.
Jesse Butts (21:05):
You're not seeing this cooperation in
a lot of the White Christiancommunities, conservative
Christian communities.
Are White, liberal Christiancommunities living up to this?
Or are you experiencingissues in that area as well?
Dr. Chris Brooks (21:18):
So, let me give you a term.
Let me just do a little bitof wordsmithing with you.
I don't think what Godrequires of his body is
cooperation or collaboration.
I think that's a really low bar.
I think what Godmandates and requires is
interdependence, right?
If one part suffers everypart suffers with it.
If one part rejoices everypart rejoices with it.
This is part of the reason whyit's so baffling that we can't
(21:41):
get the majority of the churchin America to suffer with us.
Like it just, it, it's,it's, it's unfathomable.
In terms of the quote, unquoteliberal Christians, I'm not
sure that we're getting vastlydifferent results from that
group of people, because whatyou, what you got to understand
is that both sides have a lotto, or they feel like they've
(22:02):
got a lot to lose economically.
If people of colorstart to rise up.
And you know, you can beconservative or liberal, and
we have way more liberalpeople sort of leaning in with
us than conservative people,but it's really challenging
as a person of color to geteither side of the aisle
to open up their wallet.
In my mind, that's reallyalmost like the final test of
(22:22):
whether or not you're actuallyleaning into racial justice.
I wouldn't even callit racial justice.
I would call itbiblical justice.
If you're leaning intobiblical justice, there's
going to be a cost.
And it's highly probablethat that cost will
be financial as well.
Jesse Butts (22:36):
What are you on a day-to-day basis doing
at Brown Venture to achievethis biblical justice?
And I, I mean, this in kindof just, I'm curious what
you, what a venture capitalistactually spends their time
doing, but also, you know,if you want to take kind of
a loftier angle to that too,I'm curious on both ends.
Dr. Chris Brooks (22:56):
So starting very, very lofty.
One of the things thatwe are trying to do is
create a new case for humanflourishing in the earth.
We have to put together,piece together human history
and prove that, economics,global economics, has not
worked for all communities.
Therefore it's notbiblically just, right.
(23:16):
If one part suffers everypart suffers with it.
If one part rejoices everypart rejoices with it.
So building that case, andtrying to get a globally
united case for investment.
I mean, that's, that's prettylofty, but we're working
on that every single day.
Tactically, what we do asventure capitalists is we...
there, there are two reallyprimary things that we do.
(23:36):
Raise and deploy capital.
So we spend a lot of ourtime talking to potential
investors or investors.
And we spend a lot of ourtime talking to founders
of companies, listening totheir ideas, making decisions
about whether or not thoseideas are investment ready.
And-or investment worthy, interms of what we've decided that
we want to make investments in.
Jesse Butts (23:57):
You mentioned earlier that you were doing
work you, you just weren't, Idon't want to misquote you...
maybe you know, you weren'tfeeling fulfilled by.
Can you talk a bit abouthow you made that break?
Or any words of advice youmight have for, a listener who
wants to change the full-timejob or go back to school
or whatever it is that, youknow, pardon the pun, takes a
(24:20):
little bit of a leap of faith.
How did you personallychange directions?
Dr. Chris Brooks (24:26):
My answer is true of, of myself.
It's true of us as a firm.
And I believe it's trueof the founders that
we make investments in.
The foundation ofeverything is your why.
W H Y.
You have to be extremelyclear and have very, very
deep convictions about whatyou want to do, and why.
And if you have a really,really deep, compelling, why,
(24:49):
then when the winds startblowing and people disrespect
you, and times are toughand, you know, the enemy is
attacking, and all the things...
you can lean back into yourwhy and say, Yes, I see that
the world's falling apartaround me, but I am not
giving up because the reasonI do this really matters.
So like at Brown VentureGroup we started our
company really based offof some very simple data.
(25:12):
And the very simple datawas that in 2018, when Dr.
Campbell and I started, youknow, giving some serious
thought to this, women inAmerica were getting less than
1% of, of investment in theventure capital industry, a $70
trillion industry at the time,women were getting less than 1%.
Black folks in Americawere getting less than 1%.
Latinx folks weregetting less than 1%.
(25:33):
Indigenous people werebasically not even on the map.
So if you took Black people,Latinx people, women and
indigenous people and putthem all into a big ball, less
than 5% of venture was goingto all of those categories.
And not only did Paul and I, Dr.
Campbell and I, feellike that was ridiculous.
We felt like that was a stenchin the nostrils of a holy God.
(25:54):
It was deeplytheological for us.
So we approach our workas we have a theological
responsibility, a biblicalresponsibility to break
this unjust system so thatGod's human flourishing can
advance in all communities.
So when times get tough, andthe wind starts blowing, and
people think we're crazy and,you know, investors that make
(26:16):
promises, don't keep them.
We just remember we're on theside of biblical justice here,
and we're gonna keep going.
Jesse Butts (26:22):
That figure is so startling to me.
When I...
when that combined cohort, Ibelieve you said less than 5%?
Dr. Chris Brooks (26:32):
Less than 5%.
And that includes womenwho are 50% of the
United States population.
Jesse Butts (26:37):
I am curious, just going back a little, when you
were talking about your Why.
I'm curious how, you know,finance became the way
to implement your Why?
Did you always kind ofhave a head for numbers?
Why are you takingon your mission with
finance versus other way?
Dr. Chris Brooks (26:56):
So that's a complex question.
What I will say is, many of us,maybe most of us in communities
of color recognize that despiteall of the gains we got from
the hard work during the CivilRights Movement and before,
and since really, economicswas not correlated as much
with some of the politicalgains and policy gains, and,
(27:17):
you know, economics is thefinal frontier for true equity,
true, you know, civil rights.
And so when I worked inMinneapolis Public Schools,
Hennepin County JuvenileCorrections, the nonprofits
sector, the one thing thatwas always missing were
economic solutions thatwere sustainable, right.
Like grant money comes in.
Something gets started.
(27:38):
There's amazing work going on.
Grant money runs out.
That thing stops.
You hire some amazingpeople, the funding stops.
Those amazing peoplego do something else.
You know, you investmoney in a community.
That community grows to apoint where the folks that
live there can't even affordto live there anymore.
They get pushed out.
All of the arrows pointedvery directly to the
center of economics.
(27:59):
So we knew, just sort ofintuitively, that any solution
that we proposed would have tohave economics at the center
and actually would have tohave theology at the center.
And the second concentriccircle outside of biblical
theology would have to beeconomics and economic theology.
So we are really, in my opinion,coming from a biblical economic
center, looking at life to thefull, human flourishing, as
(28:24):
God's mandate to his people.
And I'll just restatethis one more time.
Although I've probably saidit a hundred ways already.
It's it's confounding thatpeople who claim to love Jesus
and study his word cannot seethat the way that the American
church is currently operatingis not producing the desired
results that God has mandated.
It's, it's, it's confounding.
(28:45):
I can't understand why it'sso hard to make this argument.
Jesse Butts (28:50):
When you were talking about answering your
calling, do you think thatmeans that you need to, to love
the actual work you're doing?
Or is it more in yourexperience, and I mean just
speaking for you personally, isit more about loving the goal
or the mission and just doingwhat it takes to, to get there?
(29:13):
Like whatever your specialtalents or experience are
and applying those to that,that passion, that mission
that you, that you have?
Dr. Chris Brooks (29:21):
I have a tattoo on my left bicep.
It's the Hebrewword for covenant.
Brit.
And I have that word tattooedon my left bicep because in my
opinion, it is after the namesof our God, the most important
word in all of holy scripture.
I view calling as covenant.
My calling does not dependon what I ate for breakfast,
whether or not my relationshipsare going well, where my
(29:43):
emotional state is at.
A covenant's a covenant.
And when I lock in on God'scall on my life and I say,
Yes, Lord, here am I, sendme, I'm establishing a
covenant with the Lord.
So my pursuit of biblicaljustice, biblical economic
justice, that's a covenant.
Jesse Butts (30:00):
How do you describe your relationship to work?
How large of a role is itplaying in your life now?
Dr. Chris Brooks (30:08):
That's a really interesting question.
I believe that humanvocation is hardwired into
human beings by God, right.
Tend the garden.
So I see it as, you know, partof living an integrated life.
Now I'm not on my laptop at8:00 AM or 8:00 PM when I'm
sitting with my family, right?
So you have to draw some clearboundaries between the various
(30:29):
parts of your life, especiallybetween your vocational life and
your avocational family life.
But I really do try my bestto live an integrated life.
So like my family isextremely aware of the
work that I'm doing.
My children are being raisedon the same principles
that I wake up and fightfor every single day.
I am not a different humanbeing in, in any environment.
I am the same me at churchas I am at a gala as I am in
(30:52):
my living room as I am in aboardroom as I am when I'm
down at the juvenile detentioncenter counseling teenagers.
I'm the same Chris Brooks.
Because I believe thatthat is the only way to
actually achieve any mission.
You can't have variousiterations of yourself.
You've got to be you andlive a fully integrated
life everywhere you go.
Jesse Butts (31:15):
What are some questions you would recommend
someone who's out of grad schoolor maybe still in grad school,
and they're thinking about ... Iknow for you, theology is deeply
integrated into what you do, butfor somebody who has a calling,
you know, that's not a clearcorrelation, at least to them,
related to what they studied?
You know, what should peoplekind of at a crossroads, maybe
(31:37):
that's the better way to phraseit, be asking themselves to
find work or, or that, thatvocation that you mentioned, to,
to see what they can do, wherethey can apply their talents?
Dr. Chris Brooks (31:48):
I am of the belief that every human being
is uniquely created by God,in his image for a specific
purpose, which might soundchurchy or whatever, but there's
only one person who was born inyour family of origin, in your
birth order, in your communityof origin at the exact moment
in human history that youwere born, that has had your
series of life experiencesthat God has embedded with
(32:10):
your passions, your gifts.
So every human being is a veryunique one of one, and if you
don't bring what you've got tothe earth, we just don't get it.
Nobody else can bring it.
There's no other you.
So my admonition to everyhuman being, wherever they
are is to really lean in to,Why did God place me on Earth
(32:31):
for such a time as this?
And lean into personalitytests and inventories.
And interview your parentsif they're still alive.
And ask them, like, Whatwas I like when I was a kid?
Like, what did younotice about me?
Interview your spouse,your children, your
coworkers, whatever, right?
Like figure out to the bestof your ability why God
has placed you on the earthfor such a time as this.
(32:53):
And then just takeone step at a time.
And let God's word be alamp unto your feet and
a light unto your path.
You may not see the entire road,but as long as you're walking
where God's leading, every stepis guaranteed to be effective.
Jesse Butts (33:07):
Were there any important books or lectures
or, or anything really,whether, you know, related to
theology or not, that helpedyou find your path that you
would recommend to others?
Dr. Chris Brooks (33:20):
So many that it's hard to list them.
I will say that almostanything that is written
or spoken by Mark Charles,an Indigenous theologian,
is extremely important.
Dr.
Soong-Chan Rah haswritten some books.
In fact, Mark Charles andSoong-Chan Rah coauthored, a
book called Something Truths.
So they have this book.
(33:40):
I wish I had thename in front of me.
I wish I hadn't, I didn'tknow you were gonna
ask me that question.
And I believe it's calledInconvenient Truths.
But they just releasedit a couple of years ago.
It's, it's basicallylike the real telling
of American history.
From the foundingdocuments forward.
And that stuff hasbeen super helpful.
There's a book by an economistnamed Hernando de Soto called
The Mystery of Capital.
(34:02):
It's probably the most importantbook to me after the Bible.
He's not a theologian, but itactually does create a theology
of the poor and helps meunderstand that they are not the
problem; they're the solution.
We like to think sort of froma top-down perspective, like
those with all the wealth andmoney like Elon Musk and Jeff
Bezos, clearly, they're theones who have the answers.
No, every human beingbears God's image.
(34:24):
So let's listen to the onesthat have been marginalized and
maybe we can create a betterfuture state of the world.
So those have beenextremely important.
For those, especiallythat want to lean into
stuff related to race.
There's this podcast calledBlack History for White People.
It's fantastic.
It, it is fantastic and helps.
It's really more like froma sociology perspective
(34:46):
or an anthropologicalperspective, but it helps
explain some of the thoughtsand behaviors in America.
And it's not a huge leap tosort of cross reference those
with scripture and figure outlike some of the things we're
saying and doing are definitelynot in line with God's will.
Jesse Butts (35:01):
I'll admit this is a purely self-interested
or selfish question.
I'm a 37 year old White man.
I've had a lot of advantagesfor no other reason that I
was just born this, this race,you know, this gender, and
I'm comfortable in my gender.
You know, for people likeme who are in this position,
(35:23):
where can we start to, to helpthese marginalized communities?
Whether it's, you know, throughhelping their businesses or
some other ways to ensure thatthey're achieving a living wage
and a better quality of life.
Like, what are the things thatyou would recommend people like
me be thinking about and doing?
Dr. Chris Brooks (35:45):
So my answer's going to be
controversial, Jesse.
I apologize to you in advance.
I don't know that therecan be any progress made,
especially from white malesin America without a root,
a taproot of repentance.
Even just living and breathingin this society and being
okay with the injusticesdone to women and people of
color requires a taproot ofrepentance, because without
(36:08):
that repentance perspective,that posture of repentance, you
can read whatever you want.
You can make friends of whateverrace and gender you want to.
Like, you can gohang out in the hood.
None of it's going to matterif you don't honestly allow
God to break you over thefact that America is a very
unjust place when it comesto people of color and women.
And it's, it's a challengingjourney, but what I will tell
(36:30):
you is, for the White men, andthere are many, many, many, many
of them that I interact withon a regular basis that have
leaned in to like, God breakmy heart for the things that
break your heart, like for real.
The world that they walk intoon the other side of that
repentance is just beautifuland has all of the opportunity,
even economic opportunity.
Most of the world's innovationin the future state of the
(36:50):
world will be coming fromwomen and people of color.
So.
I mean, there's a pragmaticaspect to this, but I
think priority before youget to any of the doing,
I think there needs to bea really hard conversation
between you and God.
Jesse Butts (37:03):
Is there a version of that for
nonbelievers, atheists?
Dr. Chris Brooks (37:08):
That's a really challenging
question to ask me.
I, I believe that there is.
I can't speak fromthe perspective, for
example, of Islam.
I don't know what Allahmandates Muslims to do.
What the God of the Biblemandates is that you really,
really, really pay specialattention to the widow, the
(37:28):
orphan, and the foreigner.
And who are thosefolks in America today?
They're immigrants fleeingpersecution, trying to
make their way to America.
They're single moms who, youknow, all the Black men in
their community, or some of theBlack men in their community,
have been killed by the policeor locked up because there's
a disproportionate targetingof Black men in America.
They're the children of thosefathers that are incarcerated.
(37:50):
Many of them wrongfullyincarcerated, who have been,
in a sense, orphaned becausethe state keeps locking up
all their dads and uncles.
The Bible would tell us asGod's people, we better do a...
like, pay specialattention to them.
And I believe that Jesus spendsa lot of his time walking
along the margins of society.
Because they are notthe problem, those
folks in the margins.
(38:11):
They're the solution.
Jesse Butts (38:13):
Well, thank you Dr.
Brooks for thiswonderful conversation.
I appreciate your time.
Dr. Chris Brooks (38:17):
It's been great talking to you, Jesse.
I hope I talk to you again.
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