June 15, 2022 • 43 mins
Before Joe founded and sold Content Marketing Institute, wrote six books, and returned to entrepreneurship with The Tilt, he exemplified the liberal arts stereotype: a master’s in hand and uncertainty ahead.
After earning his MA, Joe decided against a PhD and opted instead to find work in internal communications. But that plan hit a snag when hiring managers balked at his lack of experience.
He turned to temping, and six months later landed a full-time role that blossomed into a career in marketing and communications.
Joe’s known for positive attitude, lifelong learning, and commitment to goal setting (and achievement). Those traits helped him reach a VP spot in the media industry and then pivot to build two successful, education-focused companies.
And, of course, Joe’s grad school days spent mastering the art of ethical persuasion, coupled with exploring his passions and strengths while a student, played no small role in his career achievements.
Joe’s Books & Other Resources
The Will to Die, Joe’s debut mystery and thriller novel
Killing Marketing, co-written with Robert Rose
This Old Marketing podcast with co-host Robert Rose
Where to find Joe & The Tilt
@JoePulizzi on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook
Check out more from The Work Seminar
Visit theworkseminar.com or find @TheWorkSeminar on social media.
Sign up for The Work Seminar newsletter to receive updates straight to your inbox.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesse Butts (00:23):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting with JoePulizzi, an MA in rhetoric
from Penn State turnedcontent marketing leader
and serial entrepreneur.
Joe is now the CEO andfounder of The Tilt, a twice
weekly email newsletteran education program for
content creators interestedin becoming entrepreneurs.
(00:45):
He also founded the ContentMarketing Institute and has
written several businessbest-sellers including Content,
Inc., Epic Content Marketingand Killing Marketing.
In 2020, he released hisfirst novel, The Will to Die.
Joe, welcome to the show.
Delighted to have you on!
Joe Pulizzi (00:59):
Jesse.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me.
Now I feel old.
I feel like that'sjust a lot of stuff.
I guess that's good.
That's what happens when you're,when you're doing marketing
and publishing for 25 years, itjust, it kind of all adds up.
Jesse Butts (01:12):
So, so Joe, before we talk a bit about
your journey from that MA inrhetoric to entrepreneurship
and content marketing andcontent creation, can you tell
us a little bit about whatyou're doing today at The Tilt?
Joe Pulizzi (01:25):
This sort of happened at the
start of the pandemic.
I really went down therabbit hole with Web 3.
With focusing on how contentcreators are figuring out
how to build businesses.
I got reallypassionate about it.
I started talking to alot of people that were,
bloggers and podcasters andYouTubers and TikTokers.
And they're, they'recreating lots of content,
but they're having troublebuilding a business.
(01:47):
And I thought maybe that's whereI could best use my talents.
Because I went throughthat process, figured
some things out.
And so that's really whatwe're doing right now.
And that's the heart ofThe Tilt is, you know, the
business aspect of content.
So lots of people knowhow to create content.
Lots of people can buildaudiences, but how do you
monetize that audienceand actually become
financially independent?
So that's what TheTilt is all about.
(02:08):
You know, twice a weeknewsletter, we're doing
lots of education.
We have an event calledCreator Economy Expo.
All that stuff, just tryingto educate and help these
people who are very talented atdoing what they're doing, but
have them take the next stepand actually become business
leaders and, and understand thisbusiness side, which is really
hard to get you arms around.
Jesse Butts (02:28):
And out of curiosity, Joe, why, why the
foundation of the twice weeklynewsletter versus a blog or a
podcast or some other medium?
Joe Pulizzi (02:39):
So, it's funny in my book Content, Inc.,
I've got a thing calledthe subscriber hierarchy.
So it basically talksabout when you're building
fans and followers.
And they're not weightedthe same, if you will.
So getting a fan on Facebookor a follower or subscriber
on YouTube is not the same,because basically that's,
Facebook's, that's YouTube's.
I can't control that.
(02:59):
They can change therules at any time.
So where can I createsome kind of a connection
with a subscriber, with acommunity member, and have
a little bit more controlover the business model?
And that's email.
To me, email is stillthe number one thing.
It's a little bit harder becauseyou have to go out and do a lot
of things to get that audience.
But once you get a subscriber,you get that direct connection,
(03:21):
they've opted into something.
So now you can actuallybuild a business around that.
And what I found frommonetization, you
know, driving revenue.
Once you have a successful emailnewsletter, you can actually
build a real business around it.
So I said, Well, why not?
We just start with that.
Let's just start withthe email newsletter.
So we do a little overviewtwice and I said, oh, once
a week might not be enough.
(03:42):
Let's do twice a week.
So we do Tuesdays and Fridays.
So far so good.
It's been working fairly well.
So we haven't changedthat frequency at all.
So we're moving forward.
So that's why.
I love email.
And until somebody tells medifferent or I see different
data, we're going to stickwith email as the number one.
And that's what I tellsomebody, if you start a
YouTube channel, or you'reon TikTok, ultimately you see
(04:03):
them all go this direction.
At some point, they say, Ohmy God, I have no control
over my business model.
I need to move tosomething else.
And that movementis usually to email.
Jesse Butts (04:13):
Got it.
That makes a lot of sense.
And just one quick question,before we get into how you've
arrived to The Tilt andContent Marketing Institute
and all those things.
What is the difference, atleast in your mind between
a content creator anda content entrepreneur?
You emphasize turningcontent creators into
content entrepreneurs.
Joe Pulizzi (04:31):
So, first of all, almost everybody's
a content creator.
We're all creating,creating content.
A content entrepreneur issomebody that takes this
seriously as a business.
And I would look at it too.
And there's a lot of contentcreators out there that'll say,
Oh I'm looking for my book deal.
Or, I'm looking for a bigsponsorship from somebody...
They're looking for one thing.
They're not necessarilylooking to build a business.
(04:53):
That's what a contententrepreneur does.
And really it should beentrepreneur content.
The entrepreneur comes first.
We're actuallybuilding a business.
We want financial independence.
You're crazy enough to goout there and not want to
work for somebody else.
That means a lot of things.
And then there's justspecific things that happen
in the content business.
I want to build an audience.
I have to deliver content over aconsistent period of time to do
(05:15):
that, to build that community.
And once I build that communityand they, know like, and trust
me, then I can monetize thatin 5, 6, 7, 8 different ways.
That's the business.
It's like a littlemedia company.
So that's what being a contententrepreneur is all about.
So I started using thatcontent entrepreneur
term about two years ago.
And I'm really tryingto push that out there,
kind of like we did withcontent marketing years ago.
(05:37):
Because I want contentpeople that are in that
business to see that thereis actually a difference.
And there is.
And these...
so, you're running a business.
What does that meanwhen it comes to the
business of content?
Jesse Butts (05:50):
All right.
So as we, we kind of tracethe roots of all this, I'm
curious, as you were wrapping upundergrad, why did you initially
want to go to grad school?
What was, what was the appeal?
What was the draw?
Joe Pulizzi (06:03):
Wow, this is...
Yeah.
Okay.
So bear with me, bear withme on this one a little bit.
Undergrad was BowlingGreen State University.
I was a communications,interpersonal
communications undergrad.
It took me three years toactually figure out a major.
And the only reason I pickedinterpersonal communications
was I went to my counselor.
I was undecided going into myjunior year and my, uh, the,
(06:26):
the counselor said, Joe, You,you have to pick something.
And I said, Okay, well what,what do I pick so that I
actually graduate on time?
And she said, Wellyou can't now.
I mean, you have to takesome summer classes or
something to graduate on time.
Cause you didn't pick anything.
And I was like, Okay Isaid, Well, what's the
shortest amount of time.
And she said, Well if you takesome summer classes, you can do
(06:47):
interpersonal communications.
I said, Great, that's my major.
So I picked that one.
I go ahead.
I got my interpersonalcommunications degree
and I was very interestedin sports marketing.
So I graduated.
I got an internship withthe Cleveland Cavaliers
for sports marketing.
And then I found outthat basically all the
money goes players.
And the people that workat a sports organization
(07:09):
get paid very, verylittle for a lot of time.
And I'm like, I don'tknow if I want to do that.
So I'm working at the Cavs andI'm like, Well what do I do?
Like, I don't know ifI want to go into this.
Whatever.
And I said, Well let's,let's keep going.
Let's keep going on to graduate.
And I applied at MichiganState, Kentucky and, and
Penn State University fortheir communications program.
(07:31):
And what was reallygreat, I found out about
Penn State is they had ateaching assistantship.
And I was really interested inpublic speaking at the time.
They said, We have a,an assistantship here.
You have to teach as partof that public speaking,
are you interested?
And I was lucky enough, somebodydropped a, so I did this.
This was very latein the process.
So I applied and somebodyat, in the Penn state
(07:52):
program dropped out.
And I got a call literally twoweeks before we were supposed
to go on campus...this,so this is the fall of 97.
And they said, Joe, we gotan opening, do you want it?
And I said, Yes, absolutely!Because I didn't know
what I was going to do.
So I fell into that one.
Went down, found like thelast place on campus to live
(08:13):
or just off campus to live.
And, and started working.
Doing, doing the teaching andr eally got into rhetoric and
persuasion and communications.
And I really didfall in love with it.
So it's funny how I was, Ididn't know what I wanted
to do, but once I started toget into communication, of
course, I enjoy talking topeople and I like this, the
salesmanship side of it as well.
(08:34):
So it got into that and, youknow, two years at Penn State
and I was lucky enough to get mymaster's in communication there.
So who knew?
Jesse Butts (08:42):
So I know, I mean, from my peripheral
experience communications,right, degrees, you can, you
can kind of go different routes.
Like some people do a lotof media analysis and,
and things like that.
Other people are steepedin all those Greek terms
that I once knew, likeantimetabolite, that are now
slipping from my vocabulary.
What was your, what wasyour focus of study?
(09:04):
What were you reallygetting into at that point?
Joe Pulizzi (09:06):
It really, I was setting myself up to teach,
to get the PhD and ... like,I, I was part of a number
of research studies.
A lot of it wasaround concessions.
So, so when someone,somebody does something
wrong, what did they say?
And what did they do to,t o to make sure that
their image is, is, is.
Comes out as clean aspossible, if you will.
So I did a numberof studies there.
They did pretty well.
(09:27):
One paper got publishedand I was thinking, Okay
well, what's the next step?
The next step is I continueon with this journey either I
continue on at Penn State or gosomewhere else and get my PhD.
But honestly it was six anda half, almost seven years of
study and taking classes andteaching and I'm like, Okay
(09:48):
I think I've had enough here.
I didn't put the PhD.
I didn't say that.
That's something thatI didn't want to do.
I said, I need to take a break.
I like need to go get a job.
I need to do something.
At the same time I fell in love.
I want and what wasgetting married and I
wasn't making any money.
And I'm like, I can'tjust pay more loans.
Like, what am I going to do?
I actually needsome revenue here.
(10:10):
I want to start building afamily, those types of things.
So I graduated and then,you know, went off and
did, we can talk about kindof the next steps there,
but, but I loved i t.
And I think it plays a, I mean,it's incredible how now I look
at it and how important thatwas thinking that it had nothing
to do with what I'm doing now.
But actually, I mean, contentmarketing, content creation,
(10:31):
it's all about, you know, howdo you persuade somebody in the
nicest way possible to subscribeto what you're doing and then
persuade them in the nicest waypossible to buy what you have.
I mean, everything we do, Imean, we're all salespeople,
is sort of what I learnedin this whole thing.
And there are right waysand wrong ways to do it.
So, it's just interestinghow that path laid
out in front of me.
Jesse Butts (10:52):
So what did you end up doing after
you, you graduated?
Joe Pulizzi (10:56):
So I got the master's degree, and I'm
like, Okay, well, whatcould I do with that?
So I started to look at,Okay, I would love to try some
internal communications jobsand roles, marketing roles,
inside large corporations.
And I put, I probably sent it...
This is before the internetwas really the internet, right?
So this is 97, 98, and theydidn't really have job boards.
(11:21):
So I would look in the newspaperand I looked for open positions
and I probably applied toabout a hundred positions.
And I kept either not gettinga call back or they would
say, Sorry, you have all thiseducation and no experience.
And it was such a let downbecause I'm like, look,
I've done all this stuff.
I did the teaching.
Look at these studies.
I wrote these papers, whatever.
(11:42):
But they didn't care about that.
All they were lookingat was, Okay, what, what
marketing and communicationexperience or public relations
experience do you have?
I didn't really haveany, so what, what am I
supposed to do with that?
So I, I basically went temping.
I went and signed upwith a temp agency.
And for the next six monthsI did administration jobs.
I did a lot of filing.
(12:02):
What could you do?
I'm not ... I just needed a job.
I needed to find something.
So I, I took all these, andmost of them were with banks.
I was doing a bunch of filing.
And then I was lucky enough, Igot a job at an insurance ... a
temp job at an insurancecompany, like working the
front desk in their internalcommunications department.
And they just lost somebody.
(12:23):
And I worked the frontdesk and apparently I was
doing a halfway decent job.
And by lunchtime, the managercalled me in and said, Joe, we
like what you're doing already.
Do you want a full-time job?
Uh, it pays $25,000 a year.
And I call my wifeand I said, Oh my God,
these people are crazy.
They're going to pay me$25,000 to do this job.
(12:44):
This is the greatestday of my life.
So I went in the head thatpoint, I took that job and
held on job and actually ranthe department after a year.
And then was there for threeyears, basically running
internal communications.
So we did, there's a lotof word processing, but I
got into Access databases.
I got into creating PowerPointpresentations for people.
We started to really workon, you know, how can
(13:07):
the accountants servetheir customers better?
How does marketing servetheir customers better?
And so I was sort ofinternally working on all
those things and it was just...
And it was a great way forme to work on my skills about
putting databases together.
And that led to my, my nextrole in publishing, so, you
know, just kind of luck andfiguring it out and just sort
of desperation for a job andwas able to get onto something
(13:30):
that worked fairly well.
Jesse Butts (13:31):
I talk to a lot of people about this, and many
of them mentioned this, thislucky moment, where you know,
they took whatever job or,you know, were just chatting
with somebody or whatever, andthis opportunity came about.
But in all the stories thatI hear, and it sounds like,
you know, yours is similarto you are doing well.
I mean, you, you know, it wasn'tjust like your rich uncle said,
(13:54):
Oh you graduated from college.
Here's the gig.
You, I mean, you took somerisks with some temp jobs and
you were, you're doing well.
Joe Pulizzi (14:00):
Showing up, right?, The the number...
the best ability you canhave is availability.
As I just kept going.
I just kept showing upin every job that I did.
And I was, I mean, Iput everything into it.
I tried to make connectionswherever possible.
That's probably the bestlearning that I have is I
realized early that I'm,especially after sending out
(14:21):
those hundred resumes andgetting nothing and trying
to do all this on my own.
I actually started totalk to a lot of people.
I started a network.
I started to go to events.
I started to put myselfout there and say,
Hey, you know what?
I'm motivated.
I've got a reallypositive attitude.
I really want to make,make some change happen.
And luckily, when I was doingsome of the database work
and getting that out there,that's how I got, I actually...
(14:42):
it was a job at a publishingcompany to actually put
a database together.
And that job was for acontent marketing department
in a publishing company.
I didn't get that job,but because I applied for
that little side gig, thenthey had an opening as an
account manager, and I wasable to then get a job.
And this is in 2000 at PentonMedia Publishing Company
doing account management forcontent marketing projects.
(15:05):
Then I found contentmarketing, I'm like, Oh my
God, this is the greatestmarketing that's ever been.
It's not disruption marketing.
It's how do I builda relationship with
customers first, beforeI sell them anything.
This is my favorite thing ever.
It leads right back intoeverything that I was doing.
So I was not afraid to askfor help because especially
(15:25):
getting that database jobor getting, you know, the
possibility of doing that,that was a friend of a friend.
You have to reach out toas many people as possible.
And the wonderful thing isthere's people out there
that want to help you.
They absolutely do.
And if you put yourself outthere and say, and you're seeing
it right now on LinkedIn, right.
I get requests all thetime from someone saying,
Hey, I'm struggling.
I'm doing this.
Whatever.
(15:45):
Can you refer?
I'm like, absolutely.
I'm happy to help you.
And if more people did that,I think they would see more
success instead of havingto do it all on your own.
Because nobody doesit on their own.
Jesse Butts (15:56):
You know, it's the early 2000s.
You, you go to Penton, becauseof this database experience
and you're an account manager.
What was that maybe precursorto content marketing
that you were doing?
Joe Pulizzi (16:07):
So February, 2000, I start with
Penton Custom Media.
So the industry at this time,for what we're talking about,
basically corporations creatingcontent to build an audience,
and then monetize that.
That was known as custommedia or custom publishing
really was because ... let'ssay the association for
that area was called theCustom Publishing Council.
(16:28):
And it came out of magazinepublishing actually.
Like Okay.
Custom media, custom publishing.
Well, in 2001 hardtimes came up on Penton.
So when I started at Penton,there were eight people
between me and the CEO.
Eighteen months later, Iwas reporting to the CEO.
Because they let go of everyone,everyone with seniority
making something, they justhad to let everyone go.
(16:48):
I literally got the jobbecause I was cheap.
I mean, they're like,Okay, you got Joe, he's
got a good personality.
He can sell.
That's wonderful.
But why did I get that gig?
I got that gig because I wasmaking almost nothing compared
to everyone else, I think.
So, this is 2001 now, and I'mgoing out and I have to sell.
And I have to sellthese custom publishing
projects to advertisers.
(17:09):
Now, when I go in, or I'm on thephone, or I'm using email, and
I mention custom publishing orcustom media, marketing people
didn't even know what that was.
Or they were sleepingby the time I mentioned
custom publishing.
And I'm like, oh, marketing.
I'm talking to marketing people.
Well, search marketing,direct marketing, you know,
now social media marketing.
(17:29):
Everything that has to do withwhat goes on in marketing is
called Something Marketing.
This is, so this is about 2001.
I started to use contentmarketing in my pitches.
And it started to work.
People didn't know whatcontent marketing was, but
if you're talking to a VP ofmarketing or a chief marketing
officer, they're like, Ohyeah, content marketing.
(17:51):
Do we do that?
Like we might, we should becauseit's Something Marketing.
And then I leanedinto it, Jesse.
I was like, Oh my God,this is the thing.
And really startedto focus on that.
We were actually thinkingabout changing the name of
Penton Custom Media to, toPenton Content Marketing or
Content Marketing Something.
We did not do that.
And, so that's howit got started.
(18:11):
And then when I, when I leftto do my own thing in 2007,
I went all in on this termcontent marketing, because
I thought it was going tobe the greatest thing and it
was going to be the biggestthing going on in marketing.
Jesse Butts (18:24):
Did you always have this kind
of entrepreneurial itch?
Like, I want to build something.
Or was it more that, youknow, you just saw that your
employer, or employers ingeneral, just weren't meeting
some need that you saw?
Like, what was that thatled you to founding your
first business, ContentMarketing Institute?
Joe Pulizzi (18:41):
So I grew up around entrepreneurs.
So they, you know, if youlook at entrepreneurs,
usually they have somebody, afamily member, somebody that
has been an entrepreneur.
My grandfather, my uncle,they ran a, a funeral home.
So that was that background.
I spent a lot oftime around them.
My father, my mother andfather started a restaurant.
So half the time I was atthe restaurant, half the time
(19:02):
I was at the funeral home.
So it was just nuts.
So I had that in my blood.
And I always carried, by the,probably by the time I was
18, I always had a notebookabout crazy business ideas.
That Oh, um, I coulddo that or whatever.
And they all seem to be aroundnewsletter and stuff like that.
Content driven.
It's just funny as, ashow you, you look back.
So I had, always hadthat in my blood.
(19:23):
But what pushed meinto that finally?
So I had a reallygood gig at Penton.
Jesse Butts (19:27):
After it was over its struggles?
Joe Pulizzi (19:29):
Yeah, so basically, so, so 2001,
2002, really struggling.
I mean the stock price wentfrom $34 to seven cents.
I mean, just think about that.
That's how bad it got.
They were really far in debt.
It was a, it was a big problem.
But they made a comeback.
They restructured a lot.
And in three, 2003, 4,5, we really started
(19:51):
to build ourselves up.
And our custom media divisionwas doing really well.
Well, I started to put proposalsin to management about how I
thought that content marketingshould be integrated with
the entire organization.
Well, I didn't reallysee that happening.
They really weren't listeningto anything that I was saying.
And maybe that was my faultin how I presented it.
(20:12):
I don't know.
But in 2006, late 2006,Penton sold to another
company and it was re-emergingas the new Penton media.
And this is how I knewthat I needed to leave.
When they valued the company,Penton Media at the time
for the sale, they neverlooked at our department.
(20:32):
They never looked atwhat we were doing.
They never, they never evenadded it to an asset line.
So that told me allI needed to know.
They were just looking...
and I get it.
involved in a number, in anumber of a, M&A procedures.
They were lookingat how much revenue.
What the subscribers are.
What are your events?
What are your magazines?
What are youradvertising customers?
(20:52):
They didn't care aboutthe content marketing
or custom media stuff.
So I saw thewriting on the wall.
So this is November of 2006.
And I said, I needto make a move.
And I'd been talking aboutdoing something for a long time.
And I talked tomy wife about it.
And she said, Joe, lookit, you've been talking
about starting a businesssince I knew you.
(21:13):
And I met her in 1994.
She said, basically, Gostart your business, or
stop talking about it.
I said, Okay, here'swhat I'm going to do.
I'm going to make adecision to do something.
And I will make that decisionfor sure, by the end of
the first quarter of 2007.
So the end of March 2007.
And that was my lastday at Penton Media.
(21:35):
So that's sort ofthe, the path of that.
Yes.
I wanted to be an entrepreneur.
And I had that in my blood.
And all the people that Ilooked up to started businesses.
But there was that momentwhere I can't go any
further in this job.
And I don't want to necessarilywork for somebody else.
So it's time toput up or shut up.
(21:55):
Let's go.
And that's what I did.
Jesse Butts (21:57):
So I don't think this is a spoiler alert since
we had already mentioned thatJoe is with The Tilt now, but,
you know, Content MarketingInstitute, you, you sold that.
But you probably could havemade a pretty nice lifestyle
business out of this.
I mean, you, you, youhad a lot of experience.
You could have donesome consulting and
do some other work.
But, it seems like insteadyou took a route where you
(22:18):
wanted to build somethingbigger and sellable.
Like, what was themotivation for that?
Like, was it kind ofa crossroads moment?
Or did you go into itthinking, I really want to
make, pardon the cliche, buta pretty big splash with this?
Joe Pulizzi (22:33):
I, oh, you already know this Jesse, but
I, I'm a big goal-setter.
And, when I decided tolaunch this business, I
wanted to have an exit.
And I wanted to have financialindependence and not have
to worry about anythingand take care of my family
and my kids and everything.
And, and I was like, Well,how do I make that happen?
(22:54):
So 2008, started with ablog, but in 2008, I really
got serious about writingdown and reviewing my goals.
And I wrote down this goaland I still have it in one
of these notebooks layingaround here, but it says,
I will sell our businessfor $15 million by 2015.
So this is 2008 and by the way,making nothing, losing money,
(23:17):
not, I mean, it was not good.
So it's almost audaciousto say that I would believe
that this could be possible.
But then I'm like, okay.
Yes.
And by the way, why 15 million?
15 million, cause I went andtalked to my accountant when I
was starting the business, andI said, Let's work the numbers.
What do I need?
And what's forever money?
And he said, Forevermoney for you is probably
like 10, $10 million.
(23:39):
And I said, Well, howmuch do I need to sell
for, to get 10 million?
He said, Well, you need to sellfor 15 million after taxes and
all that other stuff to makesure you get the 10 million.
I'm like, okay.
So that was the goal.
That's the reason why the15 million was the number.
That was my forever money.
And then I started to lookat the business models of it.
So I was doing a lot ofconsulting at the time.
(24:00):
So you talk aboutlifestyle business.
I first, to pay the bills, Iwas doing a lot of consulting
with a lot of media companiesand marketing folks around
content marketing while I wasstarting up this business.
And consulting and servicesand odd jobs and just paying
the bills you can't sell.
I can't sell.
Consulting businessesare very tough to sell.
(24:21):
If it's just about JoePulizzi, I can't sell that.
I have to actually createa brand and have to put
that together with itsdifferent pieces, parts,
and different revenuelines in order to package
that and then to sell it.
So that's why in 2008, Istarted to figure out, Okay.
Well, I've got, I've gotto figure out something
so that I can generatethat kind of revenue.
And so the next 2008, 2009,and leading up to what
(24:44):
ultimately became ContentMarketing Institute, it was
all with the thinking of it...
and I read that goal,Jesse, every day.
Okay, I'm going to sellin 2015 for 15 million.
That's almost a joke because Igot really depressed sometimes.
I'm like, What am I doing?
This is like ... I'mmaking no money here.
I'm not doing anything.
But as I read that every day,I made decisions to get to
(25:07):
that level and to organize abusiness that could be sellable.
And you could havea possible exit.
So all along that way.
And then if you look at thedecisions we made in 2010, 2011,
launching the event, ContentMarketing World, launching
the magazine Chief ContentOfficer, purchasing other little
properties and things like that.
(25:27):
We purchased a WestCoast event in 2013.
All the awards program wepurchased in 2013, which became
the Content Marketing Awards.
All those things were verystrategic to get to the
point where we could exitfor that amount in 2015.
And why did we exit in 2016?
We started the process in 2015.
I didn't have the numbersthat I needed to make
(25:50):
the 15 million in 2015.
So I would have had tostart that process in 14.
The numbers weren't there yet.
We hit those numbers in 2015.
End of 2015, I actually wentout to a small group of people
and said, Okay, I'm for salenow, went through the process,
got my lawyers and accountantand everyone involved.
And then the deal was donein June of 16 exceeding the
(26:11):
price that we were going for.
So it's it's and Italk about this in two
chapters in Content, Inc.
and go throughthe whole process.
But the big part, and whatI tell other entrepreneurs
and goal setters is, Setthe goal, review the goal
on a regular basis, figureout what you want to do.
And then you, every day, whenyou get up, you start making
decisions that go that waybecause you're right, it's very
(26:32):
easy with this model to getset into a lifestyle business.
And there, by the way, there'snothing wrong with that.
I have a lot of friends that arevery, doing very well and very
happy with a lifestyle business.
But I just said, I, I wantedto make sure that I had time
for my kids when they're, youknow, in, in middle school
and then in high schooland I don't have to go.
I'm out.
(26:52):
I traveled all the time.
I traveled 50% of the time.
I traveled to 20different countries.
I was doing, speaking all overthe place, trying to spread the
word about content marketing.
And I said, I don't want todo that the rest of my life.
So here we are.
So it all worked out verywell, but there were a
lot of very strategicdecisions along the way.
Jesse Butts (27:10):
Well, I mean, obviously congratulations
on achieving that, thatreally audacious goal.
And just for listeners'perspective, so if they're
thinking about somethinglike this, they want to,
to build something thatthey can sell for, you
know, financial security orwhatever the motivation is.
I mean, what they pay you foris that you've built something
(27:32):
that has a loyal following,that people are paying
every year to attend and theeducation they're paying for.
So, I'm assumingconsulting is risky.
What you said, like, know,if there is no Joe, then
what are they buying?
If it's consulting.
Joe Pulizzi (27:45):
And that, and by the way, probably a lot of
listeners will relate to this.
And a lot of content creatorsthat I work with and you know
very well, it's their name.
It's their blog.
It's their podcasts.
It's them, it's the, itwouldn't be a show without them.
I was very cognizant of movingaway from that because the
(28:05):
Joe Pulizzi event withoutJoe Pulizzi it's not...
A very hard to, I haveto stick with that the
rest of my life, right.
So we made it purposeful tosay, Let's get a lot of other
people involved in this thingso it's just not the Joe Show.
You have to make that decisionas a content creator to do that.
And a lot of people...
it's a tough, that's atough decision to make.
And it's very purposeful.
(28:25):
So you have to makesure you do that early.
And it wasn't really,I mean, even if you're
late in the process, youcan make that decision.
Or you might say, Iwant to keep my blog.
I want to keep the podcast, butI'm going to launch this event.
This side thing that isnot in my name, but I'm
going to promote it.
Then you can actually createsomething that's sellable
outside of yourself.
Jesse Butts (28:44):
Why start a whole other thing, after building
something that you sold forthe purpose of, you know,
giving you that freedom?
Joe Pulizzi (28:51):
Well, this is all a surprise to me right now.
This was not, this wasthat's supposed to happen.
I left in 2017, left CMI.
And 2018, I took afull sabbatical year.
It was wonderful.
I spent so muchtime with my family.
I went to Sicily with my father.
He got to see all of hiscousins he never got to see.
It was one of thoseyears I'll never forget.
It was tremendous.
(29:11):
And then 2019 was all aboutwriting my first novel.
Cause I was struggling,I was tricking out.
What am I going to do?
And I decided I'mgoing to write a novel.
I'd always wanted todo something like that.
It's much different thanwriting a business book.
And the motivation behind thatwas the fact that I just got
into conversation with my wifeone day about my business books.
(29:31):
And I said, why have you neverread any of my business books?
Cause she'd only read theacknowledgements page of any
one of the five business booksI wrote up to that point just
to see what I said about her.
And I said, Well, why, whydidn't you read any of these?
And she said, Well,if you write something
interesting, I'll read it.
So, I mean, but it's truthful.
(29:52):
So what does she like?
She likes mysteryand thriller novels.
So I said, I'm goingto write you a mystery
and thriller novel.
And I wrote and wrote and wroteuntil I found my groove and it
took me probably six to ninemonths to really find that, but
then The Will to Die was born.
And I finished thatat the end of 2019.
I was really proud of it.
And then came out withthe launch party for The
(30:14):
Will to Die on May, I'msorry, March 8th, 2020.
The next week, the worldshut down, as we all know.
So I was actually workingon the second version, the
sequel to The Will to Die atthe time because I'm like, I'm
going to be a novelist now.
That's what I want to do.
It's all Good.
And then in the middle of theyear, I started getting pings
(30:35):
from a lot of your friendsand my friends who were in the
industry, who were like, Joe,is this, this Content, Inc.
book you wrote in 2015,is it still right?
Basically, Content, Inc.
is about how entrepreneurscan use the model we use
to create and sell CMI.
So for some reason therewas interest around this
content entrepreneurshipmodel that was going on.
(30:56):
And I'm like, Oh well, maybeI should, help some people,
I want to help some people.
Maybe this, I should focusa little bit on this area.
Not a full-time thing.
Just go and focus on it.
So I talked to thefolks at McGraw-Hill.
They saw the same thing.
They saw the, the book wasdoing pretty well, even
though it was 2015, I said,Okay, let's do a deal.
I'll rewrite...
we'll rewrite this thing.
So I started workingon Content, Inc.
At the same point I found outabout this thing called web
(31:19):
three and social tokens andpossibly a whole new business
model for content creators.
That, so that wasthe end of 2020.
I started getting involved inthat, talking to some people.
I said, Well, maybeI should look at
launching a social token.
And so I basically went downthe whole rabbit hole again,
except on, except on the contentmarketing side, I was focusing
on small content creators.
(31:40):
And thus, I said, Well, ifI'm going to do all this
stuff, I might as well justpackage it into a whole
business and like reallygo all in with this thing.
In April of 2020, you know,versus celebrating actually,
as we record this, probablythe exact one year anniversary
of the tilt.com, which isa, you know, education site
(32:01):
for, for content creators.
And here we are,talking in 2022.
So it's just, it'scrazy how things happen.
It was just a surprise.
And, and really rose out ofthe, what I thought was a
need in the community forsomething that a lot of people
weren't talking about it.
And it's that businessside of content from
people who've been there.
Jesse Butts (32:19):
So, Joe, kind of looking back at things, , you
know, you mentioned earlierin the show, how valuable that
master's in communications,rhetoric was to teaching you
persuasion, ethical persuasion,learning the role of sales.
I'm curious, you know,especially since you've done
employer versus employee,what did you have to learn
(32:40):
about yourself to decidewhat was right for you?
Joe Pulizzi (32:44):
To be honest, confidence in my abilities, more
than anything else, I think.
. When you're undecided, whenyou go to college and you're
undecided, as long as I, Iwas starting to think that
I wouldn't be able to decidewhere I wanted to go at all.
And now I have two kidsin university now, and
I can see a lot of that.
(33:05):
Again, it's very difficult.
You feel like you have todecide your path at that
point, at that moment.
And I got nervous my junioryear and I'm like, Oh my
God, I'm going to be likeone of those people that are
in school for seven years,like, uh, like Animal House.
Or something like that, right.
I'm just never goingto get anywhere.
(33:27):
I'm going to have to go home andlive in my parents' basement.
This is depressing.
And what do I, what do Ido with this whole thing?
I think, I mean, Iread a lot of books.
I listened to alot of Brian Tracy.
I was really trying tofigure this whole thing out.
And I just startedto list things like,
What, what do I love?
What am I passionate about?
And what am I good at?
And I think that that's allI would recommend anybody do.
(33:49):
Just write that,like, What do I love?
What am I passionate about?
And what am I good at?
And write those things down.
And if you review those on aregular basis, you'll start to
look for those opportunities.
And I think that'sexactly what happened.
I mean, all, I think allthe things that happened
to me in the last 20 yearswere just me looking up.
I don't have my head in thesand, and I know I can add
(34:10):
value somewhere to somebody,to some organization.
If anything, that journeythroughout undergrad and
into my master's gaveme the time to do that.
I didn't even know ifI'd be a good teacher.
I mean, I, so I ended upteaching four semesters
of public speaking.
And I listened to my fair shareof legalized marijuana speeches
(34:33):
up to a point where I actuallyhad to tell them they couldn't
do that anymore because themajority of the topics were
legalizing marijuana, whichwouldn't be an issue today.
But at the time thatwas a big thing.
So I learned that, Oh Ithink I can do this teaching.
I, I have a certainway of communicating.
I actually like people.
I like talking to people.
So you kind of figure outwhere that journey takes you.
(34:56):
And it gave me thetime to do that.
And especially withcommunications.
Liberal arts degree...
I love liberal arts degrees.
Because, as you know,you can do so many
different things with it.
At the same time, hard to bea doctor, hard to be a lawyer.
Those things are out.
But basically 90% of thejobs out there, a liberal
arts degree is fantastic.
(35:16):
So I would just say whatever,whatever you are, whatever
you're doing, spend sometime and figure out what you
love, what you like to do,what you're good at, and that
will make the difference.
And it gave me time to, tofigure those things out.
Jesse Butts (35:28):
Would you say that you love what you're doing?
Do you have a deep passionor are you more of a person
who, I'm good at what I do.
I like what I do.
But I don't need to love it.
Like where do youfall on that spectrum?
Joe Pulizzi (35:40):
Yeah, it's funny because people will ask me,
Joe, you're so passionateabout content marketing.
I'm not passionateabout content marketing.
I think it's great.
I love it.
I think people should doit, if it makes sense, and
you invest it and committo it, but I don't have to
be doing content marketing.
I don't have to bedoing content creation.
I'm just trying to help people.
So how do you help peopleand build a business
at the same time?
(36:01):
That's really what I'mtrying to look at doing.
Like all of our subscribersthat we have, our 13, 14,000
subscribers, I'm like, How dowe help those people today?
And if we help thosepeople in some significant
ways, the business willtake care of itself.
There is a businessmodel that we can do.
So does it matter?
I mean, um, you know, withOrange Effect Foundation, I
mean, everything right thereis always speech therapy.
(36:24):
We're trying to get kidsspeech therapy funds.
We're like the last resortfor people who can't find
funds to support theirspeech therapy services,
and mostly kids with autism.
So we focus on that.
Am I passionate aboutunderstanding speech
therapy services?
No.
Do I cry every time I see , akid say his, say his or her
(36:45):
or their first word because ofsomething that we helped to do?
Yes, absolutely.
Every time.
So honestly, itcould be anything.
I think I could be in anyindustry doing anything.
This seems to just fit myexpertise area and what
I'm passionate about.
Jesse Butts (37:02):
How much emphasis do you put on work in your life?
I mean, it sounds like it's avery large portion of your work.
I mean, and you did takea sabbatical, but like
what role does, doeswork play in your life?
Joe Pulizzi (37:15):
I have weird thoughts when you say work.
Cause I don't thinkabout it as work.
I have lots of projects goingon and lots of what I think
are very important projectsfor me and for other people.
I don't get up thinkingI have to work.
And I guess that's where,where I think everyone
would want to be, right?
I mean, I remember the daywhen I had to go in to the job.
(37:38):
You know, I've donemy, done a lot of jobs.
I worked atConvenient Food Mart.
I've been, I was sellingglasses and lenses frames
at a company for a longtime and doing that job.
I've done a lot of jobswhere I've gotten up and
said, I have to go to work.
And so I guess that'sthe whole thing, right?
How do you get up every dayand not have to think that
you have to go to work?
(37:59):
So I don't thinkabout it as work.
I have a, I have a life.
I have many differentparts of that life.
My family comesfirst with all that.
So for what, for whateverreason, if something with The
Tilt project or some otherthings got in the way of that
family, I would have to makea change if that became work.
If that became somethingthat I didn't want to do.
(38:20):
And when it does...
and it happens, right?
When I get into something orI take on a project that feels
like work, I know immediatelythat I have to make a change.
So I'll sit down andtalk with my wife.
I said, we've got to dosome things cause, cause
this is not working.
Jesse Butts (38:35):
Joe, I think an interesting note to end on for
this conversation is, What isthat missing link between so
many of us, you know, writingdown this easy, semi- audacious,
audacious goal, whatever it is.
Writing it out on paper,versus, actually achieving it,
versus shelving it three weekslater when we get frustrated.
(38:56):
What is, what is that, thatmissing connection that so many
people have with, with goalsetting versus goal achievement?
Joe Pulizzi (39:04):
As you know, I've done a lot of work in this area.
I've read a lot ofbooks in this area.
You know, Think and GrowRich, Napoleon Hill.
Stephen Covey's books,were very, for me,
important in building outmy goal setting strategy.
When you look at the researchalso that tells you how do
you form a habit, it takesgenerally 66 days in a row
(39:26):
for you to do something, tocreate a habit so that you
get used to it every day.
So it's very, so let'ssay, so I'll give you a
really good example rightnow that I was working on.
I started at the beginningof the year, I wanted
to, I wanted to do athousand pushups in 20 22.
I don't enjoy doing pushups, butI'm like, I gotta do something.
I want to keep in shape.
I'm not going to go to the gym.
I'm making that decision.
(39:47):
But if I got up every dayand did so what's that I got
to do X number of pushups.
So I have an app that I haveto check off every day that
I do my pushups every day.
And I've only missed acouple of days so far
for weird, weird reasons.
But so far, you know,we're into, you know,
first, first three monthsof the year, I'm good.
I'm doing well.
I'm up to like 35 pushups a day.
(40:08):
I'm feeling good.
I'm trying to, I think I canget to 100 at some point, but
it's got a long way to go.
I just got to do them every day.
So it takes, it takes66 days to do that.
So if you're going to set agoal of any kind, you also
need to set the habit to reviewthat goal, to make sure that
you're going to do that goal.
So that's what Ilearned really early.
That's the process whenI've talked to a lot of
(40:30):
entrepreneurs that I tryto really push and say, You
need to do these things.
And so I havedifferent goal areas.
So one would be mycareer, financial goal.
One would be a spiritual goal.
One would be a physical goal.
So pushups go undera physical goal.
I also like to, I havea thing where I run two
half marathons a year.
(40:51):
That's under my,my physical goal.
I have a mental goal.
I, I want to read 24non-business books this year.
That's a mental goal for me.
I review that on aregular basis to make
sure that I'm doing that.
Because if you don'treview it on a regular
basis, it doesn't happen.
So my recommendationis pick one or two.
One's probably a good start.
So you have five or six goalsthat you can look at during
(41:13):
the year and review thoseon a regular basis, and then
do the things associatedwith getting to that goal.
So reading the booksis easy, right?
Doing the half marathon is,Okay, if I'm going to do
two marathons, what's that?
What are the habits thatI need to do to reach
that goal for 2022?
I gotta run every other day.
And I got to run at leastthree to five, or I'm not going
(41:34):
to make that half marathon.
I'm gonna to kill myself.
So we got to make sure thatwe've figured out those things.
So if I have a big goal, likeI want to sell a company or
I wanted to make X amount ofmoney, then you break that
down into what are thosesmall things that I have to
do every day to get there.
So get up in the morning.
Look at that.
I like writing it down,using a pen and paper.
Read those goals.
(41:55):
And then before yougo to sleep at night,
read those goals again.
The mind, subconscious minddoes crazy things at night.
Gets you feelingin a different...
gets you on a differentpath in the morning if you
review it the night before.
So that would bemy recommendation.
That's probably the one thingthat I've done that's made the
biggest impact in achievingthe goals is actually setting
(42:15):
and reviewing the goals first.
Jesse Butts (42:18):
So Joe, if people are interested in learning
more about what you're doingand things like that, I mean,
we've mentioned thetilt.com.
Is there anywhereelse people should go?
Joe Pulizzi (42:27):
I'm @JoePulizzi, P U L I Z Z I, on just about
every social media platform.
Twitter and LinkedIn aremy two favorites that
I use most of the time.
Anybody's welcome tohit me up on those.
And then, I guess the wholething is, if people are
interested in the whole Web3thing is, you know, you and
I we've gone down that holea little bit here and there.
If you sign up for thetilt.com,we try to get people onboarded
(42:48):
into our social tokens sothey can start learning about
whole Web3 and the process.
So, so that's, whereyou can get ahold of me.
Jesse Butts (42:55):
All right.
Thank you so much, Joe.
This was a wonderfulconversation.
Joe Pulizzi (42:58):
Anytime, my friend
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting with JoePulizzi, an MA in rhetoric
from Penn State turnedcontent marketing leader
and serial entrepreneur.
Joe is now the CEO andfounder of The Tilt, a twice
weekly email newsletteran education program for
content creators interestedin becoming entrepreneurs.
(00:45):
He also founded the ContentMarketing Institute and has
written several businessbest-sellers including Content,
Inc., Epic Content Marketingand Killing Marketing.
In 2020, he released hisfirst novel, The Will to Die.
Joe, welcome to the show.
Delighted to have you on!
Joe Pulizzi (00:59):
Jesse.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me.
Now I feel old.
I feel like that'sjust a lot of stuff.
I guess that's good.
That's what happens when you're,when you're doing marketing
and publishing for 25 years, itjust, it kind of all adds up.
Jesse Butts (01:12):
So, so Joe, before we talk a bit about
your journey from that MA inrhetoric to entrepreneurship
and content marketing andcontent creation, can you tell
us a little bit about whatyou're doing today at The Tilt?
Joe Pulizzi (01:25):
This sort of happened at the
start of the pandemic.
I really went down therabbit hole with Web 3.
With focusing on how contentcreators are figuring out
how to build businesses.
I got reallypassionate about it.
I started talking to alot of people that were,
bloggers and podcasters andYouTubers and TikTokers.
And they're, they'recreating lots of content,
but they're having troublebuilding a business.
(01:47):
And I thought maybe that's whereI could best use my talents.
Because I went throughthat process, figured
some things out.
And so that's really whatwe're doing right now.
And that's the heart ofThe Tilt is, you know, the
business aspect of content.
So lots of people knowhow to create content.
Lots of people can buildaudiences, but how do you
monetize that audienceand actually become
financially independent?
So that's what TheTilt is all about.
(02:08):
You know, twice a weeknewsletter, we're doing
lots of education.
We have an event calledCreator Economy Expo.
All that stuff, just tryingto educate and help these
people who are very talented atdoing what they're doing, but
have them take the next stepand actually become business
leaders and, and understand thisbusiness side, which is really
hard to get you arms around.
Jesse Butts (02:28):
And out of curiosity, Joe, why, why the
foundation of the twice weeklynewsletter versus a blog or a
podcast or some other medium?
Joe Pulizzi (02:39):
So, it's funny in my book Content, Inc.,
I've got a thing calledthe subscriber hierarchy.
So it basically talksabout when you're building
fans and followers.
And they're not weightedthe same, if you will.
So getting a fan on Facebookor a follower or subscriber
on YouTube is not the same,because basically that's,
Facebook's, that's YouTube's.
I can't control that.
(02:59):
They can change therules at any time.
So where can I createsome kind of a connection
with a subscriber, with acommunity member, and have
a little bit more controlover the business model?
And that's email.
To me, email is stillthe number one thing.
It's a little bit harder becauseyou have to go out and do a lot
of things to get that audience.
But once you get a subscriber,you get that direct connection,
(03:21):
they've opted into something.
So now you can actuallybuild a business around that.
And what I found frommonetization, you
know, driving revenue.
Once you have a successful emailnewsletter, you can actually
build a real business around it.
So I said, Well, why not?
We just start with that.
Let's just start withthe email newsletter.
So we do a little overviewtwice and I said, oh, once
a week might not be enough.
(03:42):
Let's do twice a week.
So we do Tuesdays and Fridays.
So far so good.
It's been working fairly well.
So we haven't changedthat frequency at all.
So we're moving forward.
So that's why.
I love email.
And until somebody tells medifferent or I see different
data, we're going to stickwith email as the number one.
And that's what I tellsomebody, if you start a
YouTube channel, or you'reon TikTok, ultimately you see
(04:03):
them all go this direction.
At some point, they say, Ohmy God, I have no control
over my business model.
I need to move tosomething else.
And that movementis usually to email.
Jesse Butts (04:13):
Got it.
That makes a lot of sense.
And just one quick question,before we get into how you've
arrived to The Tilt andContent Marketing Institute
and all those things.
What is the difference, atleast in your mind between
a content creator anda content entrepreneur?
You emphasize turningcontent creators into
content entrepreneurs.
Joe Pulizzi (04:31):
So, first of all, almost everybody's
a content creator.
We're all creating,creating content.
A content entrepreneur issomebody that takes this
seriously as a business.
And I would look at it too.
And there's a lot of contentcreators out there that'll say,
Oh I'm looking for my book deal.
Or, I'm looking for a bigsponsorship from somebody...
They're looking for one thing.
They're not necessarilylooking to build a business.
(04:53):
That's what a contententrepreneur does.
And really it should beentrepreneur content.
The entrepreneur comes first.
We're actuallybuilding a business.
We want financial independence.
You're crazy enough to goout there and not want to
work for somebody else.
That means a lot of things.
And then there's justspecific things that happen
in the content business.
I want to build an audience.
I have to deliver content over aconsistent period of time to do
(05:15):
that, to build that community.
And once I build that communityand they, know like, and trust
me, then I can monetize thatin 5, 6, 7, 8 different ways.
That's the business.
It's like a littlemedia company.
So that's what being a contententrepreneur is all about.
So I started using thatcontent entrepreneur
term about two years ago.
And I'm really tryingto push that out there,
kind of like we did withcontent marketing years ago.
(05:37):
Because I want contentpeople that are in that
business to see that thereis actually a difference.
And there is.
And these...
so, you're running a business.
What does that meanwhen it comes to the
business of content?
Jesse Butts (05:50):
All right.
So as we, we kind of tracethe roots of all this, I'm
curious, as you were wrapping upundergrad, why did you initially
want to go to grad school?
What was, what was the appeal?
What was the draw?
Joe Pulizzi (06:03):
Wow, this is...
Yeah.
Okay.
So bear with me, bear withme on this one a little bit.
Undergrad was BowlingGreen State University.
I was a communications,interpersonal
communications undergrad.
It took me three years toactually figure out a major.
And the only reason I pickedinterpersonal communications
was I went to my counselor.
I was undecided going into myjunior year and my, uh, the,
(06:26):
the counselor said, Joe, You,you have to pick something.
And I said, Okay, well what,what do I pick so that I
actually graduate on time?
And she said, Wellyou can't now.
I mean, you have to takesome summer classes or
something to graduate on time.
Cause you didn't pick anything.
And I was like, Okay Isaid, Well, what's the
shortest amount of time.
And she said, Well if you takesome summer classes, you can do
(06:47):
interpersonal communications.
I said, Great, that's my major.
So I picked that one.
I go ahead.
I got my interpersonalcommunications degree
and I was very interestedin sports marketing.
So I graduated.
I got an internship withthe Cleveland Cavaliers
for sports marketing.
And then I found outthat basically all the
money goes players.
And the people that workat a sports organization
(07:09):
get paid very, verylittle for a lot of time.
And I'm like, I don'tknow if I want to do that.
So I'm working at the Cavs andI'm like, Well what do I do?
Like, I don't know ifI want to go into this.
Whatever.
And I said, Well let's,let's keep going.
Let's keep going on to graduate.
And I applied at MichiganState, Kentucky and, and
Penn State University fortheir communications program.
(07:31):
And what was reallygreat, I found out about
Penn State is they had ateaching assistantship.
And I was really interested inpublic speaking at the time.
They said, We have a,an assistantship here.
You have to teach as partof that public speaking,
are you interested?
And I was lucky enough, somebodydropped a, so I did this.
This was very latein the process.
So I applied and somebodyat, in the Penn state
(07:52):
program dropped out.
And I got a call literally twoweeks before we were supposed
to go on campus...this,so this is the fall of 97.
And they said, Joe, we gotan opening, do you want it?
And I said, Yes, absolutely!Because I didn't know
what I was going to do.
So I fell into that one.
Went down, found like thelast place on campus to live
(08:13):
or just off campus to live.
And, and started working.
Doing, doing the teaching andr eally got into rhetoric and
persuasion and communications.
And I really didfall in love with it.
So it's funny how I was, Ididn't know what I wanted
to do, but once I started toget into communication, of
course, I enjoy talking topeople and I like this, the
salesmanship side of it as well.
(08:34):
So it got into that and, youknow, two years at Penn State
and I was lucky enough to get mymaster's in communication there.
So who knew?
Jesse Butts (08:42):
So I know, I mean, from my peripheral
experience communications,right, degrees, you can, you
can kind of go different routes.
Like some people do a lotof media analysis and,
and things like that.
Other people are steepedin all those Greek terms
that I once knew, likeantimetabolite, that are now
slipping from my vocabulary.
What was your, what wasyour focus of study?
(09:04):
What were you reallygetting into at that point?
Joe Pulizzi (09:06):
It really, I was setting myself up to teach,
to get the PhD and ... like,I, I was part of a number
of research studies.
A lot of it wasaround concessions.
So, so when someone,somebody does something
wrong, what did they say?
And what did they do to,t o to make sure that
their image is, is, is.
Comes out as clean aspossible, if you will.
So I did a numberof studies there.
They did pretty well.
(09:27):
One paper got publishedand I was thinking, Okay
well, what's the next step?
The next step is I continueon with this journey either I
continue on at Penn State or gosomewhere else and get my PhD.
But honestly it was six anda half, almost seven years of
study and taking classes andteaching and I'm like, Okay
(09:48):
I think I've had enough here.
I didn't put the PhD.
I didn't say that.
That's something thatI didn't want to do.
I said, I need to take a break.
I like need to go get a job.
I need to do something.
At the same time I fell in love.
I want and what wasgetting married and I
wasn't making any money.
And I'm like, I can'tjust pay more loans.
Like, what am I going to do?
I actually needsome revenue here.
(10:10):
I want to start building afamily, those types of things.
So I graduated and then,you know, went off and
did, we can talk about kindof the next steps there,
but, but I loved i t.
And I think it plays a, I mean,it's incredible how now I look
at it and how important thatwas thinking that it had nothing
to do with what I'm doing now.
But actually, I mean, contentmarketing, content creation,
(10:31):
it's all about, you know, howdo you persuade somebody in the
nicest way possible to subscribeto what you're doing and then
persuade them in the nicest waypossible to buy what you have.
I mean, everything we do, Imean, we're all salespeople,
is sort of what I learnedin this whole thing.
And there are right waysand wrong ways to do it.
So, it's just interestinghow that path laid
out in front of me.
Jesse Butts (10:52):
So what did you end up doing after
you, you graduated?
Joe Pulizzi (10:56):
So I got the master's degree, and I'm
like, Okay, well, whatcould I do with that?
So I started to look at,Okay, I would love to try some
internal communications jobsand roles, marketing roles,
inside large corporations.
And I put, I probably sent it...
This is before the internetwas really the internet, right?
So this is 97, 98, and theydidn't really have job boards.
(11:21):
So I would look in the newspaperand I looked for open positions
and I probably applied toabout a hundred positions.
And I kept either not gettinga call back or they would
say, Sorry, you have all thiseducation and no experience.
And it was such a let downbecause I'm like, look,
I've done all this stuff.
I did the teaching.
Look at these studies.
I wrote these papers, whatever.
(11:42):
But they didn't care about that.
All they were lookingat was, Okay, what, what
marketing and communicationexperience or public relations
experience do you have?
I didn't really haveany, so what, what am I
supposed to do with that?
So I, I basically went temping.
I went and signed upwith a temp agency.
And for the next six monthsI did administration jobs.
I did a lot of filing.
(12:02):
What could you do?
I'm not ... I just needed a job.
I needed to find something.
So I, I took all these, andmost of them were with banks.
I was doing a bunch of filing.
And then I was lucky enough, Igot a job at an insurance ... a
temp job at an insurancecompany, like working the
front desk in their internalcommunications department.
And they just lost somebody.
(12:23):
And I worked the frontdesk and apparently I was
doing a halfway decent job.
And by lunchtime, the managercalled me in and said, Joe, we
like what you're doing already.
Do you want a full-time job?
Uh, it pays $25,000 a year.
And I call my wifeand I said, Oh my God,
these people are crazy.
They're going to pay me$25,000 to do this job.
(12:44):
This is the greatestday of my life.
So I went in the head thatpoint, I took that job and
held on job and actually ranthe department after a year.
And then was there for threeyears, basically running
internal communications.
So we did, there's a lotof word processing, but I
got into Access databases.
I got into creating PowerPointpresentations for people.
We started to really workon, you know, how can
(13:07):
the accountants servetheir customers better?
How does marketing servetheir customers better?
And so I was sort ofinternally working on all
those things and it was just...
And it was a great way forme to work on my skills about
putting databases together.
And that led to my, my nextrole in publishing, so, you
know, just kind of luck andfiguring it out and just sort
of desperation for a job andwas able to get onto something
(13:30):
that worked fairly well.
Jesse Butts (13:31):
I talk to a lot of people about this, and many
of them mentioned this, thislucky moment, where you know,
they took whatever job or,you know, were just chatting
with somebody or whatever, andthis opportunity came about.
But in all the stories thatI hear, and it sounds like,
you know, yours is similarto you are doing well.
I mean, you, you know, it wasn'tjust like your rich uncle said,
(13:54):
Oh you graduated from college.
Here's the gig.
You, I mean, you took somerisks with some temp jobs and
you were, you're doing well.
Joe Pulizzi (14:00):
Showing up, right?, The the number...
the best ability you canhave is availability.
As I just kept going.
I just kept showing upin every job that I did.
And I was, I mean, Iput everything into it.
I tried to make connectionswherever possible.
That's probably the bestlearning that I have is I
realized early that I'm,especially after sending out
(14:21):
those hundred resumes andgetting nothing and trying
to do all this on my own.
I actually started totalk to a lot of people.
I started a network.
I started to go to events.
I started to put myselfout there and say,
Hey, you know what?
I'm motivated.
I've got a reallypositive attitude.
I really want to make,make some change happen.
And luckily, when I was doingsome of the database work
and getting that out there,that's how I got, I actually...
(14:42):
it was a job at a publishingcompany to actually put
a database together.
And that job was for acontent marketing department
in a publishing company.
I didn't get that job,but because I applied for
that little side gig, thenthey had an opening as an
account manager, and I wasable to then get a job.
And this is in 2000 at PentonMedia Publishing Company
doing account management forcontent marketing projects.
(15:05):
Then I found contentmarketing, I'm like, Oh my
God, this is the greatestmarketing that's ever been.
It's not disruption marketing.
It's how do I builda relationship with
customers first, beforeI sell them anything.
This is my favorite thing ever.
It leads right back intoeverything that I was doing.
So I was not afraid to askfor help because especially
(15:25):
getting that database jobor getting, you know, the
possibility of doing that,that was a friend of a friend.
You have to reach out toas many people as possible.
And the wonderful thing isthere's people out there
that want to help you.
They absolutely do.
And if you put yourself outthere and say, and you're seeing
it right now on LinkedIn, right.
I get requests all thetime from someone saying,
Hey, I'm struggling.
I'm doing this.
Whatever.
(15:45):
Can you refer?
I'm like, absolutely.
I'm happy to help you.
And if more people did that,I think they would see more
success instead of havingto do it all on your own.
Because nobody doesit on their own.
Jesse Butts (15:56):
You know, it's the early 2000s.
You, you go to Penton, becauseof this database experience
and you're an account manager.
What was that maybe precursorto content marketing
that you were doing?
Joe Pulizzi (16:07):
So February, 2000, I start with
Penton Custom Media.
So the industry at this time,for what we're talking about,
basically corporations creatingcontent to build an audience,
and then monetize that.
That was known as custommedia or custom publishing
really was because ... let'ssay the association for
that area was called theCustom Publishing Council.
(16:28):
And it came out of magazinepublishing actually.
Like Okay.
Custom media, custom publishing.
Well, in 2001 hardtimes came up on Penton.
So when I started at Penton,there were eight people
between me and the CEO.
Eighteen months later, Iwas reporting to the CEO.
Because they let go of everyone,everyone with seniority
making something, they justhad to let everyone go.
(16:48):
I literally got the jobbecause I was cheap.
I mean, they're like,Okay, you got Joe, he's
got a good personality.
He can sell.
That's wonderful.
But why did I get that gig?
I got that gig because I wasmaking almost nothing compared
to everyone else, I think.
So, this is 2001 now, and I'mgoing out and I have to sell.
And I have to sellthese custom publishing
projects to advertisers.
(17:09):
Now, when I go in, or I'm on thephone, or I'm using email, and
I mention custom publishing orcustom media, marketing people
didn't even know what that was.
Or they were sleepingby the time I mentioned
custom publishing.
And I'm like, oh, marketing.
I'm talking to marketing people.
Well, search marketing,direct marketing, you know,
now social media marketing.
(17:29):
Everything that has to do withwhat goes on in marketing is
called Something Marketing.
This is, so this is about 2001.
I started to use contentmarketing in my pitches.
And it started to work.
People didn't know whatcontent marketing was, but
if you're talking to a VP ofmarketing or a chief marketing
officer, they're like, Ohyeah, content marketing.
(17:51):
Do we do that?
Like we might, we should becauseit's Something Marketing.
And then I leanedinto it, Jesse.
I was like, Oh my God,this is the thing.
And really startedto focus on that.
We were actually thinkingabout changing the name of
Penton Custom Media to, toPenton Content Marketing or
Content Marketing Something.
We did not do that.
And, so that's howit got started.
(18:11):
And then when I, when I leftto do my own thing in 2007,
I went all in on this termcontent marketing, because
I thought it was going tobe the greatest thing and it
was going to be the biggestthing going on in marketing.
Jesse Butts (18:24):
Did you always have this kind
of entrepreneurial itch?
Like, I want to build something.
Or was it more that, youknow, you just saw that your
employer, or employers ingeneral, just weren't meeting
some need that you saw?
Like, what was that thatled you to founding your
first business, ContentMarketing Institute?
Joe Pulizzi (18:41):
So I grew up around entrepreneurs.
So they, you know, if youlook at entrepreneurs,
usually they have somebody, afamily member, somebody that
has been an entrepreneur.
My grandfather, my uncle,they ran a, a funeral home.
So that was that background.
I spent a lot oftime around them.
My father, my mother andfather started a restaurant.
So half the time I was atthe restaurant, half the time
(19:02):
I was at the funeral home.
So it was just nuts.
So I had that in my blood.
And I always carried, by the,probably by the time I was
18, I always had a notebookabout crazy business ideas.
That Oh, um, I coulddo that or whatever.
And they all seem to be aroundnewsletter and stuff like that.
Content driven.
It's just funny as, ashow you, you look back.
So I had, always hadthat in my blood.
(19:23):
But what pushed meinto that finally?
So I had a reallygood gig at Penton.
Jesse Butts (19:27):
After it was over its struggles?
Joe Pulizzi (19:29):
Yeah, so basically, so, so 2001,
2002, really struggling.
I mean the stock price wentfrom $34 to seven cents.
I mean, just think about that.
That's how bad it got.
They were really far in debt.
It was a, it was a big problem.
But they made a comeback.
They restructured a lot.
And in three, 2003, 4,5, we really started
(19:51):
to build ourselves up.
And our custom media divisionwas doing really well.
Well, I started to put proposalsin to management about how I
thought that content marketingshould be integrated with
the entire organization.
Well, I didn't reallysee that happening.
They really weren't listeningto anything that I was saying.
And maybe that was my faultin how I presented it.
(20:12):
I don't know.
But in 2006, late 2006,Penton sold to another
company and it was re-emergingas the new Penton media.
And this is how I knewthat I needed to leave.
When they valued the company,Penton Media at the time
for the sale, they neverlooked at our department.
(20:32):
They never looked atwhat we were doing.
They never, they never evenadded it to an asset line.
So that told me allI needed to know.
They were just looking...
and I get it.
involved in a number, in anumber of a, M&A procedures.
They were lookingat how much revenue.
What the subscribers are.
What are your events?
What are your magazines?
What are youradvertising customers?
(20:52):
They didn't care aboutthe content marketing
or custom media stuff.
So I saw thewriting on the wall.
So this is November of 2006.
And I said, I needto make a move.
And I'd been talking aboutdoing something for a long time.
And I talked tomy wife about it.
And she said, Joe, lookit, you've been talking
about starting a businesssince I knew you.
(21:13):
And I met her in 1994.
She said, basically, Gostart your business, or
stop talking about it.
I said, Okay, here'swhat I'm going to do.
I'm going to make adecision to do something.
And I will make that decisionfor sure, by the end of
the first quarter of 2007.
So the end of March 2007.
And that was my lastday at Penton Media.
(21:35):
So that's sort ofthe, the path of that.
Yes.
I wanted to be an entrepreneur.
And I had that in my blood.
And all the people that Ilooked up to started businesses.
But there was that momentwhere I can't go any
further in this job.
And I don't want to necessarilywork for somebody else.
So it's time toput up or shut up.
(21:55):
Let's go.
And that's what I did.
Jesse Butts (21:57):
So I don't think this is a spoiler alert since
we had already mentioned thatJoe is with The Tilt now, but,
you know, Content MarketingInstitute, you, you sold that.
But you probably could havemade a pretty nice lifestyle
business out of this.
I mean, you, you, youhad a lot of experience.
You could have donesome consulting and
do some other work.
But, it seems like insteadyou took a route where you
(22:18):
wanted to build somethingbigger and sellable.
Like, what was themotivation for that?
Like, was it kind ofa crossroads moment?
Or did you go into itthinking, I really want to
make, pardon the cliche, buta pretty big splash with this?
Joe Pulizzi (22:33):
I, oh, you already know this Jesse, but
I, I'm a big goal-setter.
And, when I decided tolaunch this business, I
wanted to have an exit.
And I wanted to have financialindependence and not have
to worry about anythingand take care of my family
and my kids and everything.
And, and I was like, Well,how do I make that happen?
(22:54):
So 2008, started with ablog, but in 2008, I really
got serious about writingdown and reviewing my goals.
And I wrote down this goaland I still have it in one
of these notebooks layingaround here, but it says,
I will sell our businessfor $15 million by 2015.
So this is 2008 and by the way,making nothing, losing money,
(23:17):
not, I mean, it was not good.
So it's almost audaciousto say that I would believe
that this could be possible.
But then I'm like, okay.
Yes.
And by the way, why 15 million?
15 million, cause I went andtalked to my accountant when I
was starting the business, andI said, Let's work the numbers.
What do I need?
And what's forever money?
And he said, Forevermoney for you is probably
like 10, $10 million.
(23:39):
And I said, Well, howmuch do I need to sell
for, to get 10 million?
He said, Well, you need to sellfor 15 million after taxes and
all that other stuff to makesure you get the 10 million.
I'm like, okay.
So that was the goal.
That's the reason why the15 million was the number.
That was my forever money.
And then I started to lookat the business models of it.
So I was doing a lot ofconsulting at the time.
(24:00):
So you talk aboutlifestyle business.
I first, to pay the bills, Iwas doing a lot of consulting
with a lot of media companiesand marketing folks around
content marketing while I wasstarting up this business.
And consulting and servicesand odd jobs and just paying
the bills you can't sell.
I can't sell.
Consulting businessesare very tough to sell.
(24:21):
If it's just about JoePulizzi, I can't sell that.
I have to actually createa brand and have to put
that together with itsdifferent pieces, parts,
and different revenuelines in order to package
that and then to sell it.
So that's why in 2008, Istarted to figure out, Okay.
Well, I've got, I've gotto figure out something
so that I can generatethat kind of revenue.
And so the next 2008, 2009,and leading up to what
(24:44):
ultimately became ContentMarketing Institute, it was
all with the thinking of it...
and I read that goal,Jesse, every day.
Okay, I'm going to sellin 2015 for 15 million.
That's almost a joke because Igot really depressed sometimes.
I'm like, What am I doing?
This is like ... I'mmaking no money here.
I'm not doing anything.
But as I read that every day,I made decisions to get to
(25:07):
that level and to organize abusiness that could be sellable.
And you could havea possible exit.
So all along that way.
And then if you look at thedecisions we made in 2010, 2011,
launching the event, ContentMarketing World, launching
the magazine Chief ContentOfficer, purchasing other little
properties and things like that.
(25:27):
We purchased a WestCoast event in 2013.
All the awards program wepurchased in 2013, which became
the Content Marketing Awards.
All those things were verystrategic to get to the
point where we could exitfor that amount in 2015.
And why did we exit in 2016?
We started the process in 2015.
I didn't have the numbersthat I needed to make
(25:50):
the 15 million in 2015.
So I would have had tostart that process in 14.
The numbers weren't there yet.
We hit those numbers in 2015.
End of 2015, I actually wentout to a small group of people
and said, Okay, I'm for salenow, went through the process,
got my lawyers and accountantand everyone involved.
And then the deal was donein June of 16 exceeding the
(26:11):
price that we were going for.
So it's it's and Italk about this in two
chapters in Content, Inc.
and go throughthe whole process.
But the big part, and whatI tell other entrepreneurs
and goal setters is, Setthe goal, review the goal
on a regular basis, figureout what you want to do.
And then you, every day, whenyou get up, you start making
decisions that go that waybecause you're right, it's very
(26:32):
easy with this model to getset into a lifestyle business.
And there, by the way, there'snothing wrong with that.
I have a lot of friends that arevery, doing very well and very
happy with a lifestyle business.
But I just said, I, I wantedto make sure that I had time
for my kids when they're, youknow, in, in middle school
and then in high schooland I don't have to go.
I'm out.
(26:52):
I traveled all the time.
I traveled 50% of the time.
I traveled to 20different countries.
I was doing, speaking all overthe place, trying to spread the
word about content marketing.
And I said, I don't want todo that the rest of my life.
So here we are.
So it all worked out verywell, but there were a
lot of very strategicdecisions along the way.
Jesse Butts (27:10):
Well, I mean, obviously congratulations
on achieving that, thatreally audacious goal.
And just for listeners'perspective, so if they're
thinking about somethinglike this, they want to,
to build something thatthey can sell for, you
know, financial security orwhatever the motivation is.
I mean, what they pay you foris that you've built something
(27:32):
that has a loyal following,that people are paying
every year to attend and theeducation they're paying for.
So, I'm assumingconsulting is risky.
What you said, like, know,if there is no Joe, then
what are they buying?
If it's consulting.
Joe Pulizzi (27:45):
And that, and by the way, probably a lot of
listeners will relate to this.
And a lot of content creatorsthat I work with and you know
very well, it's their name.
It's their blog.
It's their podcasts.
It's them, it's the, itwouldn't be a show without them.
I was very cognizant of movingaway from that because the
(28:05):
Joe Pulizzi event withoutJoe Pulizzi it's not...
A very hard to, I haveto stick with that the
rest of my life, right.
So we made it purposeful tosay, Let's get a lot of other
people involved in this thingso it's just not the Joe Show.
You have to make that decisionas a content creator to do that.
And a lot of people...
it's a tough, that's atough decision to make.
And it's very purposeful.
(28:25):
So you have to makesure you do that early.
And it wasn't really,I mean, even if you're
late in the process, youcan make that decision.
Or you might say, Iwant to keep my blog.
I want to keep the podcast, butI'm going to launch this event.
This side thing that isnot in my name, but I'm
going to promote it.
Then you can actually createsomething that's sellable
outside of yourself.
Jesse Butts (28:44):
Why start a whole other thing, after building
something that you sold forthe purpose of, you know,
giving you that freedom?
Joe Pulizzi (28:51):
Well, this is all a surprise to me right now.
This was not, this wasthat's supposed to happen.
I left in 2017, left CMI.
And 2018, I took afull sabbatical year.
It was wonderful.
I spent so muchtime with my family.
I went to Sicily with my father.
He got to see all of hiscousins he never got to see.
It was one of thoseyears I'll never forget.
It was tremendous.
(29:11):
And then 2019 was all aboutwriting my first novel.
Cause I was struggling,I was tricking out.
What am I going to do?
And I decided I'mgoing to write a novel.
I'd always wanted todo something like that.
It's much different thanwriting a business book.
And the motivation behind thatwas the fact that I just got
into conversation with my wifeone day about my business books.
(29:31):
And I said, why have you neverread any of my business books?
Cause she'd only read theacknowledgements page of any
one of the five business booksI wrote up to that point just
to see what I said about her.
And I said, Well, why, whydidn't you read any of these?
And she said, Well,if you write something
interesting, I'll read it.
So, I mean, but it's truthful.
(29:52):
So what does she like?
She likes mysteryand thriller novels.
So I said, I'm goingto write you a mystery
and thriller novel.
And I wrote and wrote and wroteuntil I found my groove and it
took me probably six to ninemonths to really find that, but
then The Will to Die was born.
And I finished thatat the end of 2019.
I was really proud of it.
And then came out withthe launch party for The
(30:14):
Will to Die on May, I'msorry, March 8th, 2020.
The next week, the worldshut down, as we all know.
So I was actually workingon the second version, the
sequel to The Will to Die atthe time because I'm like, I'm
going to be a novelist now.
That's what I want to do.
It's all Good.
And then in the middle of theyear, I started getting pings
(30:35):
from a lot of your friendsand my friends who were in the
industry, who were like, Joe,is this, this Content, Inc.
book you wrote in 2015,is it still right?
Basically, Content, Inc.
is about how entrepreneurscan use the model we use
to create and sell CMI.
So for some reason therewas interest around this
content entrepreneurshipmodel that was going on.
(30:56):
And I'm like, Oh well, maybeI should, help some people,
I want to help some people.
Maybe this, I should focusa little bit on this area.
Not a full-time thing.
Just go and focus on it.
So I talked to thefolks at McGraw-Hill.
They saw the same thing.
They saw the, the book wasdoing pretty well, even
though it was 2015, I said,Okay, let's do a deal.
I'll rewrite...
we'll rewrite this thing.
So I started workingon Content, Inc.
At the same point I found outabout this thing called web
(31:19):
three and social tokens andpossibly a whole new business
model for content creators.
That, so that wasthe end of 2020.
I started getting involved inthat, talking to some people.
I said, Well, maybeI should look at
launching a social token.
And so I basically went downthe whole rabbit hole again,
except on, except on the contentmarketing side, I was focusing
on small content creators.
(31:40):
And thus, I said, Well, ifI'm going to do all this
stuff, I might as well justpackage it into a whole
business and like reallygo all in with this thing.
In April of 2020, you know,versus celebrating actually,
as we record this, probablythe exact one year anniversary
of the tilt.com, which isa, you know, education site
(32:01):
for, for content creators.
And here we are,talking in 2022.
So it's just, it'scrazy how things happen.
It was just a surprise.
And, and really rose out ofthe, what I thought was a
need in the community forsomething that a lot of people
weren't talking about it.
And it's that businessside of content from
people who've been there.
Jesse Butts (32:19):
So, Joe, kind of looking back at things, , you
know, you mentioned earlierin the show, how valuable that
master's in communications,rhetoric was to teaching you
persuasion, ethical persuasion,learning the role of sales.
I'm curious, you know,especially since you've done
employer versus employee,what did you have to learn
(32:40):
about yourself to decidewhat was right for you?
Joe Pulizzi (32:44):
To be honest, confidence in my abilities, more
than anything else, I think.
. When you're undecided, whenyou go to college and you're
undecided, as long as I, Iwas starting to think that
I wouldn't be able to decidewhere I wanted to go at all.
And now I have two kidsin university now, and
I can see a lot of that.
(33:05):
Again, it's very difficult.
You feel like you have todecide your path at that
point, at that moment.
And I got nervous my junioryear and I'm like, Oh my
God, I'm going to be likeone of those people that are
in school for seven years,like, uh, like Animal House.
Or something like that, right.
I'm just never goingto get anywhere.
(33:27):
I'm going to have to go home andlive in my parents' basement.
This is depressing.
And what do I, what do Ido with this whole thing?
I think, I mean, Iread a lot of books.
I listened to alot of Brian Tracy.
I was really trying tofigure this whole thing out.
And I just startedto list things like,
What, what do I love?
What am I passionate about?
And what am I good at?
And I think that that's allI would recommend anybody do.
(33:49):
Just write that,like, What do I love?
What am I passionate about?
And what am I good at?
And write those things down.
And if you review those on aregular basis, you'll start to
look for those opportunities.
And I think that'sexactly what happened.
I mean, all, I think allthe things that happened
to me in the last 20 yearswere just me looking up.
I don't have my head in thesand, and I know I can add
(34:10):
value somewhere to somebody,to some organization.
If anything, that journeythroughout undergrad and
into my master's gaveme the time to do that.
I didn't even know ifI'd be a good teacher.
I mean, I, so I ended upteaching four semesters
of public speaking.
And I listened to my fair shareof legalized marijuana speeches
(34:33):
up to a point where I actuallyhad to tell them they couldn't
do that anymore because themajority of the topics were
legalizing marijuana, whichwouldn't be an issue today.
But at the time thatwas a big thing.
So I learned that, Oh Ithink I can do this teaching.
I, I have a certainway of communicating.
I actually like people.
I like talking to people.
So you kind of figure outwhere that journey takes you.
(34:56):
And it gave me thetime to do that.
And especially withcommunications.
Liberal arts degree...
I love liberal arts degrees.
Because, as you know,you can do so many
different things with it.
At the same time, hard to bea doctor, hard to be a lawyer.
Those things are out.
But basically 90% of thejobs out there, a liberal
arts degree is fantastic.
(35:16):
So I would just say whatever,whatever you are, whatever
you're doing, spend sometime and figure out what you
love, what you like to do,what you're good at, and that
will make the difference.
And it gave me time to, tofigure those things out.
Jesse Butts (35:28):
Would you say that you love what you're doing?
Do you have a deep passionor are you more of a person
who, I'm good at what I do.
I like what I do.
But I don't need to love it.
Like where do youfall on that spectrum?
Joe Pulizzi (35:40):
Yeah, it's funny because people will ask me,
Joe, you're so passionateabout content marketing.
I'm not passionateabout content marketing.
I think it's great.
I love it.
I think people should doit, if it makes sense, and
you invest it and committo it, but I don't have to
be doing content marketing.
I don't have to bedoing content creation.
I'm just trying to help people.
So how do you help peopleand build a business
at the same time?
(36:01):
That's really what I'mtrying to look at doing.
Like all of our subscribersthat we have, our 13, 14,000
subscribers, I'm like, How dowe help those people today?
And if we help thosepeople in some significant
ways, the business willtake care of itself.
There is a businessmodel that we can do.
So does it matter?
I mean, um, you know, withOrange Effect Foundation, I
mean, everything right thereis always speech therapy.
(36:24):
We're trying to get kidsspeech therapy funds.
We're like the last resortfor people who can't find
funds to support theirspeech therapy services,
and mostly kids with autism.
So we focus on that.
Am I passionate aboutunderstanding speech
therapy services?
No.
Do I cry every time I see , akid say his, say his or her
(36:45):
or their first word because ofsomething that we helped to do?
Yes, absolutely.
Every time.
So honestly, itcould be anything.
I think I could be in anyindustry doing anything.
This seems to just fit myexpertise area and what
I'm passionate about.
Jesse Butts (37:02):
How much emphasis do you put on work in your life?
I mean, it sounds like it's avery large portion of your work.
I mean, and you did takea sabbatical, but like
what role does, doeswork play in your life?
Joe Pulizzi (37:15):
I have weird thoughts when you say work.
Cause I don't thinkabout it as work.
I have lots of projects goingon and lots of what I think
are very important projectsfor me and for other people.
I don't get up thinkingI have to work.
And I guess that's where,where I think everyone
would want to be, right?
I mean, I remember the daywhen I had to go in to the job.
(37:38):
You know, I've donemy, done a lot of jobs.
I worked atConvenient Food Mart.
I've been, I was sellingglasses and lenses frames
at a company for a longtime and doing that job.
I've done a lot of jobswhere I've gotten up and
said, I have to go to work.
And so I guess that'sthe whole thing, right?
How do you get up every dayand not have to think that
you have to go to work?
(37:59):
So I don't thinkabout it as work.
I have a, I have a life.
I have many differentparts of that life.
My family comesfirst with all that.
So for what, for whateverreason, if something with The
Tilt project or some otherthings got in the way of that
family, I would have to makea change if that became work.
If that became somethingthat I didn't want to do.
(38:20):
And when it does...
and it happens, right?
When I get into something orI take on a project that feels
like work, I know immediatelythat I have to make a change.
So I'll sit down andtalk with my wife.
I said, we've got to dosome things cause, cause
this is not working.
Jesse Butts (38:35):
Joe, I think an interesting note to end on for
this conversation is, What isthat missing link between so
many of us, you know, writingdown this easy, semi- audacious,
audacious goal, whatever it is.
Writing it out on paper,versus, actually achieving it,
versus shelving it three weekslater when we get frustrated.
(38:56):
What is, what is that, thatmissing connection that so many
people have with, with goalsetting versus goal achievement?
Joe Pulizzi (39:04):
As you know, I've done a lot of work in this area.
I've read a lot ofbooks in this area.
You know, Think and GrowRich, Napoleon Hill.
Stephen Covey's books,were very, for me,
important in building outmy goal setting strategy.
When you look at the researchalso that tells you how do
you form a habit, it takesgenerally 66 days in a row
(39:26):
for you to do something, tocreate a habit so that you
get used to it every day.
So it's very, so let'ssay, so I'll give you a
really good example rightnow that I was working on.
I started at the beginningof the year, I wanted
to, I wanted to do athousand pushups in 20 22.
I don't enjoy doing pushups, butI'm like, I gotta do something.
I want to keep in shape.
I'm not going to go to the gym.
I'm making that decision.
(39:47):
But if I got up every dayand did so what's that I got
to do X number of pushups.
So I have an app that I haveto check off every day that
I do my pushups every day.
And I've only missed acouple of days so far
for weird, weird reasons.
But so far, you know,we're into, you know,
first, first three monthsof the year, I'm good.
I'm doing well.
I'm up to like 35 pushups a day.
(40:08):
I'm feeling good.
I'm trying to, I think I canget to 100 at some point, but
it's got a long way to go.
I just got to do them every day.
So it takes, it takes66 days to do that.
So if you're going to set agoal of any kind, you also
need to set the habit to reviewthat goal, to make sure that
you're going to do that goal.
So that's what Ilearned really early.
That's the process whenI've talked to a lot of
(40:30):
entrepreneurs that I tryto really push and say, You
need to do these things.
And so I havedifferent goal areas.
So one would be mycareer, financial goal.
One would be a spiritual goal.
One would be a physical goal.
So pushups go undera physical goal.
I also like to, I havea thing where I run two
half marathons a year.
(40:51):
That's under my,my physical goal.
I have a mental goal.
I, I want to read 24non-business books this year.
That's a mental goal for me.
I review that on aregular basis to make
sure that I'm doing that.
Because if you don'treview it on a regular
basis, it doesn't happen.
So my recommendationis pick one or two.
One's probably a good start.
So you have five or six goalsthat you can look at during
(41:13):
the year and review thoseon a regular basis, and then
do the things associatedwith getting to that goal.
So reading the booksis easy, right?
Doing the half marathon is,Okay, if I'm going to do
two marathons, what's that?
What are the habits thatI need to do to reach
that goal for 2022?
I gotta run every other day.
And I got to run at leastthree to five, or I'm not going
(41:34):
to make that half marathon.
I'm gonna to kill myself.
So we got to make sure thatwe've figured out those things.
So if I have a big goal, likeI want to sell a company or
I wanted to make X amount ofmoney, then you break that
down into what are thosesmall things that I have to
do every day to get there.
So get up in the morning.
Look at that.
I like writing it down,using a pen and paper.
Read those goals.
(41:55):
And then before yougo to sleep at night,
read those goals again.
The mind, subconscious minddoes crazy things at night.
Gets you feelingin a different...
gets you on a differentpath in the morning if you
review it the night before.
So that would bemy recommendation.
That's probably the one thingthat I've done that's made the
biggest impact in achievingthe goals is actually setting
(42:15):
and reviewing the goals first.
Jesse Butts (42:18):
So Joe, if people are interested in learning
more about what you're doingand things like that, I mean,
we've mentioned thetilt.com.
Is there anywhereelse people should go?
Joe Pulizzi (42:27):
I'm @JoePulizzi, P U L I Z Z I, on just about
every social media platform.
Twitter and LinkedIn aremy two favorites that
I use most of the time.
Anybody's welcome tohit me up on those.
And then, I guess the wholething is, if people are
interested in the whole Web3thing is, you know, you and
I we've gone down that holea little bit here and there.
If you sign up for thetilt.com,we try to get people onboarded
(42:48):
into our social tokens sothey can start learning about
whole Web3 and the process.
So, so that's, whereyou can get ahold of me.
Jesse Butts (42:55):
All right.
Thank you so much, Joe.
This was a wonderfulconversation.
Joe Pulizzi (42:58):
Anytime, my friend
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