June 22, 2022 • 38 mins
Halfway through her doctoral program, Megan knew pursuing a professorship wasn’t the right path. She loved her studies, but seeing how her work could be applied in industry cemented her decision to look outside higher ed for career prospects.
Enlightening conversations with friends and colleagues in the tech scene led Megan to discover the then-nascent user experience (UX) field. One particular chat crystalized UX research as the perfect area for her to focus on. And focus there she did.
After nine years in UX research and research management roles, Megan was as (initially) surprised as anyone to move into talent development. But her belief in a growth mindset, her evolving identity beyond a UX and psychology practitioner, and an opportunity to stretch herself all aligned.
Now Megan relishes helping fellow leaders develop their skills and teams, along with finding a sense of accomplishment and balance.
Books & other resources mentioned
Mindset: The New Psychology of Success by Carol Dweck
JoinLearners.com — a UX career resource
The Calm App or Headspace for starting a mindfulness practice
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Visit theworkseminar.com or find @TheWorkSeminar on social media.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesse Butts (00:23):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting withMegan Sauter, a PhD in
cognitive psychologyfrom Northwestern turned
talent development leader.
Before taking this role, Meganspent the majority of her career
in user experience research.
She is now the director oftalent development at Answer
(00:43):
Lab, a UX research service.
Megan, welcome.
Thanks for joiningme on the show.
Megan Sauter (00:48):
Thanks so much for having me, Jesse.
I am glad to be here.
Jesse Butts (00:53):
Glad we could find the time.
So before we dive into yourpath from cognitive psychology
to talent development, and I'llbe sure to ask about that user
experience part of it too, butcan you tell us a little bit
about what you're doing now?
What does talentdevelopment involve?
Megan Sauter (01:11):
That's a really good question.
So talent development, Iguess I'll put it this way.
What do you think of when youthink of performance reviews?
Jesse Butts (01:22):
So in my experience, you know, three days
before it was due, trying tothink of what I did for a year.
And then six weeks lateractually having a conversation,
and my manager highlightingwhat I did well and what
could be improved upon.
And then a month or sixweeks later, it was like,
I actually heard aboutthe compensation changes.
(01:43):
So that was my experiencewith performance reviews
for the majority of myworking in house career.
Megan Sauter (01:49):
Yes.
Yeah.
So it can be, like you said,it could be all of this
pressure at the last minute.
If you have a great manager, agreat relationship, it could be
this very enriching experience.
Or it could feel likeyou're being judged.
Very perfunctory.
Like this is just somethingyou have to get done.
It's checking a box.
(02:10):
So the idea of talentdevelopment is turning
that on its head to makeexperiences, professional
development experience, sincethey're really centered on the
person to be centered aroundgrowth rather than judgment.
Rather than, you know, I'mjust doing this, so, you know,
(02:31):
maybe I could get a raise.
I'm just doing this forthis one core reason.
I'm doing this too,because I have to.
So trying to make experiencesthat have a greater meaning to
the individual and in the end,as well as the, as the company.
Because when people are feelinglike they're being supported,
that they're being seen, thatthey're, they have the ability
(02:54):
to explore their talents andtheir own growth paths, the
organization benefits from that.
So that is how I seetalent development.
It's personal development,it's professional development,
and it's, I would hope it'smore, becomes more meaningful
to the individual goingthrough that experience.
Jesse Butts (03:16):
Maybe activities isn't quite the right word, but
how does that kind of break downinto a, a program or a process?
Megan Sauter (03:23):
So I'm trying to think of how do I want to
best frame this, without givingaway all the secret sauce.
I'd say my philosophy isbuilt around the growth
mindset, which means thatthis intelligence and skills
we have, they're not fixedtraits, but they're, we all
(03:44):
have that potential to, to grow.
And I also see the skillsbuilding as a process and a
practice, meaning learninga skill i s something
that happens over time.
It's not something thatit's just one point in time.
You get it.
It's flipping on a light switch.
Most skills don'twork like that.
(04:05):
It takes time to, to learn,to cultivate, to have a
chance, to practice, tomess up, to get feedback.
So it takes time.
And it's not something that'sjust, that can only be done
like once a year or twice ayear or every quarter in a
performance review cycle ortalent development cycle.
Rather, it's something thatis, is always happening.
(04:27):
So there are official processesthat are put in place like
talent development cycles,is what I'll refer to them
as, where you do have thatchance to reflect, to, to fill
out, an assessment similarto, to what you described,
but making sure it's reallyhuman centered, based around
(04:47):
the skills and the learninggoals the individual has.
And then meeting with yourtalent development partner,
which is your manager, toreally explore those goals
and come to some ideas ofhow you want to continue
to cultivate those skills.
So very much there's processesin place, but it's also an
overarching philosophy orculture that you always
(05:11):
have the ability to grow andmaking sure that you have
those opportunities to grow.
Jesse Butts (05:16):
Well, I mean, I, I certainly look forward
to a better system than whatI had, had experience with.
So Megan, going back a little,can you tell us a little
bit about what prompted youto enroll in grad school?
Like what were you hoping toachieve by going to grad school?
Megan Sauter (05:32):
Oh, what a question.
So I've always just beenin love with learning.
Since I was really young.
And I went to college becauseI wanted to keep learning and
I couldn't, I couldn't decideon even what to major in.
So I double majored inEnglish and psychology.
I was always fascinatedabout learning, I guess, of
(05:55):
human stories and the humanexperiences, how we work.
I was going to have a minorin Spanish, but I was like,
I already was at the pointwhere I was petitioning
my college to take moreclasses than they thought a
human student should take.
Uh, so just give you aperspective, like I just
(06:15):
was just this voraciouslearning machine.
And so grad school, it madesense to me in that mindset of,
well, I need to just keep going.
And I thought, Yeah, I mightwant to be a professor.
Like I could see myselfjust living in a, a place
of learning for the restof my life in some way.
(06:37):
And in a way I am.
Talent development, thatis all about learning
and, and personal growth.
, It's a very different pathwaythan I could have envisioned
when I was, what 22?
Whatever it was, I wasfinishing college and
going off to grad school.
But it did take sometime to figure out, do
I want to do psychology?
Do I want to gointo English lit?
(07:00):
I toyed with the idea ofstudying creative writing.
And I ended up landingon psychology partially
through just the experiencesand opportunities I had
in the psychology honorsprogram at Arizona State.
Jesse Butts (07:17):
Where you went to college?
Megan Sauter (07:19):
Undergrad, yeah.
Jesse Butts (07:19):
Okay.
As you started the program,were you still in the early
stages thinking that you wouldprobably become a professor or
something along those lines?
Or when did a shiftstart to occur?
Megan Sauter (07:33):
Yes, I think early on.
I did well, but I was inover my head in some ways.
And some of it had to do withjust my relationship to learning
and how, honestly, I think,I think I really did have
a fixed, that fixed mindsetwhere I'm like, I'm smart.
(07:54):
And so any time there wascriticism, or I didn't do
well, it just had, just a hugeimpact on my mental health.
And it was not sustainable.
So in undergrad I usedto stay up and pull all
nighters, write papers.
I tried doing those things,things in grad school
(08:15):
and it just wrecked me.
By the end of my firstsemester, I was like, you
can not keep going like this.
Like something had to change.
I had to develop not justbetter habits for how I
was pursuing projects andknowledge and writing,
but just my relationshipto my work had to shift.
(08:37):
I remember probably in mythird, second or third year
of grad school, I was flyingto DC for a conference there.
I was going to present there.
And I got off the plane, Iwas covered in like bumps.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, Icaught something on the plane.
I have like an illness.
It's like what's happening.
And I called student health.
(08:58):
And after talking to themfor a few minutes, they're
like, you have stress.
This sounds like stress hives.
Take some Benadryl.
And it was kind of a wake upcall of for someone like me
who studies human cognition,that the head, the brain is
not just this floating thingdetached from your body.
That the decisions that you makeimpact your health, your body.
(09:22):
Like there is that strongmind-body connection.
And I'd say, like sincethat time, I have really
been focusing on how, howto create harmony in that.
Jesse Butts (09:34):
While you were kind of going through this
self discovery, learning thata career path in academia
might not be right with you,were you still enjoying the,
the subject matter itself?
Megan Sauter (09:45):
Yes.
I was.
So even when things became,I guess, more sustainable
for me, and more enjoyablefor me, later in grad
school, I was questioningwhether I wanted to be a
professor for another reason.
So in going to theseconferences, I would
often meet with people whoare teachers who had...
(10:07):
they were involved inmuseum programming.
And they would see some posterI did, some work that I had
done about like a lab study.
And they're like, Oh, I couldsee this being an activity
that I could work with, youknow, the kids at the museum,
or the students at my school.
And hearing that applicationbe applied to someone to
(10:27):
make, to help them learnsomething or give them a better
experience in some way thathad a major influence on me.
I remember talking to my, myadvisor had a dual appointment
in psychology and the schoolof education and social policy.
And so there were somegrants on, on learning.
And about halfway through mygrad experience while I was
(10:50):
preparing for, you know, tofigure out my dissertation.
It was like, what can I do?
Like what, what opportunitiesmight we have to explore
something a little more applied?
Jesse Butts (11:00):
Sorry, I probably should have asked
this earlier, but how,how long was your program?
Megan Sauter (11:05):
I took about, five and a half years, I wanna say.
Five, five and a half years,somewhere around that.
Jesse Butts (11:10):
So when you were in year four, five,
as you were, you finishedcomps, you were, you know,
defending your dissertation.
What were you thinking atthat point that you would
do once you graduated?
Megan Sauter (11:24):
So this is interesting.
I had already done allmy data collection.
I was doing like the bigwriting and the analysis
piece of my dissertation.
My partner, my now husband,he's in tech and he, we
were in Chicago and he gota job out in San Francisco.
So, I've always beeninterested in tech.
(11:46):
And you might be able to startseeing like, okay, like, yeah,
the application technology,like there's a lot of things
that were coming together.
So I talked to my advisorabout, Okay, I have a few
months left of writing.
How would you feel if I did thisremotely from San Francisco?
(12:08):
And I tried it out alittle bit before I moved
officially, but one of thethings that that enabled me
to do, so I did finish my,my dissertation on time.
I'm really proud of mywork ethic during that,
and how I got it done.
So what it enabled me todo being out in the Bay
Area is there was like alot of opportunities for
(12:31):
folks with my background inthe emerging field of UX.
Or in educationalresearch and data science.
Like there's a lot ofcool ideas out there.
So I was able to meet withdifferent folks who had
jobs that seemed interesting.
And I just talked to them totry to figure out, like,
(12:52):
what is it I want it to do?
What part of UX?
Was it information architecture?
Was it research?
Are there jobs whereyou just do UX research?
Which now it's very prevalent,but you know, then, you
know, you'd see like kindof more UX general jobs
and a lot of design, likeinteraction design jobs.
So I joined up with like ameetup for coding because
(13:15):
I wasn't sure if I wantedto do data science or if
I wanted to do somethingwhere that would be useful.
So I was, I was exploring.
By the time I defended mydissertation, I wasn't sure
exactly what it was, but Ihad an idea that it would
be somewhere in technology.
Somewhere related to howpeople are interacting with
(13:36):
tech, and it maybe will havethe, the, the acronym UX
involved in there somwhere.
Jesse Butts (13:44):
And that was brought about mainly by
just having conversationswith people, you said?
Megan Sauter (13:49):
Yeah.
My first conversation wasactually someone I went to
grad school with who had beenin tech during the initial
bubble in the early 2000sand then went to grad school.
So I remember them talkingto me like, I, we went out
for like coffee or a beerand just, I asked questions
about what it was like, and,you know, what, what kinds
(14:11):
of jobs might be related.
And at the time inthe early 2000s, UX
wasn't the term for it.
There were some other termsfor what that looks like.
But I had some ideasthere that there's, there
could be some potential.
Jesse Butts (14:28):
So once you graduated, did you then kind
of pound the pavement lookingfor work in California?
Megan Sauter (14:36):
Yes.
Um, one of my favorite storiesabout this was I had a couple
of friends that I met on along cycling trip that, they
were also moving out to,they had been in Chicago.
They were also movingout to the Bay Area.
Similar timing.
And one of them was a gradstudents at one of the
(14:56):
schools out in the Bay Area.
And I remembered them tellingme like, Hey Megan, there's
a grad, there's a grad,there's a grad school job
fair that's going on, just forgrad students at our school.
You should just go.
You should just printout your resume and go.
Just sneak in.
And so that's what I did.
So I just printed out my resume.
(15:16):
I went to this job fairfor a different school.
Um, I, I got an interviewand I got flown out
to like, The DC area.
It was like a very, a verylike governmenty type.
It wasn't for the government,but it was like a company
that was like heavilyinvolved in government stuff.
(15:37):
So I got to interview there andexplore what that vibe was like.
And that particular job wasnot for me, but I really
appreciated like everything...
you know, that theysaw something in me.
And they, they gaveme that opportunity.
Jesse Butts (15:53):
What was it, uh, what is it, maybe I
should say too, about userexperience that you initially
found really interesting?
Megan Sauter (16:03):
I think it's all, it's all the things that
when you use a new, like anew site or a new app or a new
video game that make you rage.
That you're like, Whydid someone do this?
Like, why did theyput button here.
Why did they make itthis easy to close this
and lose all my work?
Like, those are thethings like that...
(16:24):
I feel like I could have aninfluence in that not happening.
I can make someone's day better.
Jesse Butts (16:32):
How much of that desire or...
yeah, desire to do thatwork was coupled with
the cognitive psychologybackground that you had.
Megan Sauter (16:42):
Oh, probably a good amount because there's
all these little things.
Like I remember working on aproject and realizing why people
were missing information wasbased around visual processing.
And how there's thesedifferent, like Gestalt
principles of grouping thingstogether or prioritization.
(17:03):
And the way information wasflowing across this page
was it didn't align withsome of those principles.
So I would find all thesecognitive heuristics that
either like that was what wasbehind an issue or could be
used to help fix an issue.
Jesse Butts (17:24):
Did you end up relocating to the
DC area for this job?
Megan Sauter (17:26):
No.
Oh no, I did nottake the DC job.
I, I just, I stayedin the Bay Area but I
flew out to interview.
So I got my start in UXactually at Answer Lab.
So at the company I am stillat today that I've been able
to explore my own career path.
I started as a UX researcher.
Jesse Butts (17:46):
What does that type of work look like?
What are you doing day to day,week to week as a UX researcher?
At least when you started.
Megan Sauter (17:53):
My favorite part about it is...
I never want to be bored, asyou could probably tell from
all the different interestsand things I've explored,
like I want to keep learning.
And that was somethingthat was a constant
being a UX researcher.
So this is a clientservices firm.
So I got to work with lotsof different clients, lots
(18:15):
of different products.
And our clients would cometo us with a product or
an issue, something theywant to learn more about.
And then I got to figure outlike, How do you take their
goal and kind of reverseengineer that into a task?
Like a behavioral taskwhere you get to interview
(18:37):
a person and importantlyobserve their behaviors
while using that product.
I got to do ethnographicresearch where you actually
go to locations wherepeople are doing their job.
They're using thesedifferent products and tools.
I got to do usability testing.
Lots of different techniques,both from the kind of
(19:01):
exploratory ,to building theproduct, to, It's already
out there, let's keepiterating and make it better.
But just like in the lab...
So what brought me to thearea of cognitive development
that I was doing, I did, Idid cognitive development.
That's the area of cognitivepsychology I was at.
And part of the challengethere when you're working
(19:24):
with kids, you have to takea research question and
turn it into something thatyour, your population, your
sample, like kids could dothat would also illustrate,
you know, it'll answerthe question you're doing.
So it felt going from likethat, where I had to like,
(19:45):
say I had a question aboutlike, How do kids develop the
ability to, to think spatially?
How do kids develop theability to communicate
about, you know, navigation?
And, and then I hadto it into a game.
I had to figure out likewhat metrics I was using
to, to actually measurewhat was happening.
Measure if a learningintervention worked.
(20:07):
So that knowledge, I was ableto apply as a UX researcher
because essentially I wouldhave 10, 12 people coming into
the lab or logging onto theircomputer and talking to me.
And I would have to ask theright questions, give them
the right tasks for themto demonstrate a behavior.
(20:30):
To demonstrate something thatwould give me the information
to answer my client's question.
Jesse Butts (20:37):
So how did that anticipation or
that idea match reality?
I mean, was it kind ofa, an instant click?
Or were there some adjustments?
How did you feel aboutthe work once you got your
hands dirty, so to speak?
Megan Sauter (20:52):
So once I started, I enjoyed it a great deal.
Another thing that happenedaround that time, it sounds
funny that I left Chicagoand that's when I started
to do improv comedy.
But I started doing improvin San Francisco while I was
starting my research career.
And that had a big impact onit because when you're, when
(21:15):
you're doing these interviewswith people, sometimes
you really have to followthe thread of what's going
on because there could besomething even beyond like the
slice that you're focused onthat's causing greater issues
or could be an even greaterdevelopment, for your client
for the overall experience.
I found that thatreally helped me.
(21:38):
As I was becoming aresearcher, I was growing
in a lot of different ways.
So I was learning moreabout working in tech.
I was learning moreabout consultative...
just being a consultant,because that, that
was the role I was in.
But I was, I was also likejust learning these other
skills that helped me too.
Jesse Butts (21:57):
I think you might be the first guest who's been
continuously with one employersince finishing grad school.
So I, I'm curious aboutyour progression, your
different roles, thingslike that with the company.
So how was what you'redoing, you know, year
one different from maybeyear five at the company?
Megan Sauter (22:17):
Great question.
Well, I think I've, I've,had the ability, I think, to
grow as my company has grown.
And the culture that we'veset up, the mentors I've
had, has allowed me to pursuedifferent areas of, of UX, of
(22:37):
leadership, as we've grown.
So, I started as a UX researcherand I spent maybe two and a
half, three years doing that.
And then we were growingour strategy team.
So strategy for us is,you know, developing these
relationships with clients,scoping out these research
(22:59):
programs and, and projects.
And, you know, I liketo keep, keep learning.
That was like, Oh this issomething I haven't done before.
The person who would bemy manager was someone
I really looked up to.
I had worked with before.
I felt like I couldlearn so much from her.
And so, and I would getto work with clients that
(23:19):
I had great relationshipswith as a researcher.
And so I could help themcontinue to build their products
and build that relationship.
So it just was a kind ofa beautiful opportunity
for all of those reasons.
And I did that for abouttwo and a half years.
And then we were growingand there, one of the things
(23:42):
that I found that I loved inthat role was working closely
with the researchers whowere doing the projects that
I had initially designed.
And I was starting to sharpenmy skills as a mentor.
And we had an opportunity,as our research management
team was growing, for me totake on a role as a research
(24:06):
manager and actually oversee...
build out our onboardingprogram, as we were growing.
So that was incredibly exciting.
So I was a research managerup until about a year ago when
the talent development directorrole opened and allowed me to
(24:28):
take my experience navigatingmy own career path and help
mentor and guide others andcreate processes for our company
to, to just really cultivatethe learning of our, of our
talented folks who work here.
Jesse Butts (24:47):
When that opportunity surfaced, were you
in a place of thinking of...
I mean, everything that youhad talked about kind of
seemed like a, a progressionin ways, or, I mean, like in
the same broad discipline,maybe would be a way to put it.
Were you looking for somethingthat was a bit different?
Did the opportunitypresent itself and you
hadn't considered it?
Like what, what wasthat process like?
Megan Sauter (25:10):
Probably more the latter.
I, I mean, I love thatI've managed some amazing
people, and I developed greatrelationships with my team and,
you know, still being, havingthat experience and being a
manager is still somethingthat is near and dear to me.
So I wasn't looking forreally anything different.
(25:31):
It was more that thatopportunity came and, you
know, my manager at the timeand my current manager kind
of came to me with, with somepossibilities to explore.
Jesse Butts (25:45):
So what are you enjoying most
about talent development?
Megan Sauter (25:51):
So there's a few things.
One is leadership development?
So having been a managerfor four years, I've learned
just what an incrediblerole that person can play
on their team members.
Not just their, their work-life,but really like you can
have a big impact, in termsof being able to use your
(26:12):
power to remove barriers.
Or to help people findopportunities to coach.
It's a really valuable role.
And so I have focused in mytime on leadership development
opportunities for, for managers.
How to support them, because itcan also be a really tough role.
(26:34):
You know, you might be havingto react to a lot of different
teams or a lot of differentthings that are happening,
you know, how do you takecare of yourself while you're
taking care of your team?
What boundaries doyou need to set?
How can you best support people?
How do you get away fromthe idea of a, especially
if you're someone, if you'resomeone who held a role,
(26:56):
say you were a researcherand you become a research
manager ... it's very, it's avery different mindset, right?
So how do you get into thatmanager mindset that just
because someone's doingsomething differently than
the way you, you would havedone it in that role, that you
can still see their style andempower them for who they are?
If they're doing somethingthat, is creating, you
(27:18):
know, effective results.
So, you know, managerscan just have a, I think,
make or break role.
It's just like professionaldevelopment opportunities
is one of the reasonspeople leave a company.
Their manager relationshipis up there too.
So that's, that's beenan area that is a bit of
(27:39):
a passion area for me.
And the other is...
there's been a lot ofopportunity to embrace
the really gray, stickychallenges that...
I like puzzles.
I like trying tofigure things out.
I love building things.
I like collaboratingwith people.
And I get to do all of that inthis role, especially for the
(28:00):
fact that this role is, is new.
I mean, I've, I'vebeen in it for a year.
So there's still lotsof things that I'm
learning and figuring out.
Jesse Butts (28:09):
What did you have to learn about yourself
to find work that fit you?
Like why did some of thoseother ideas just not seem
as appealing or, or franklyjust like a good fit as user
experience did at that time?
Megan Sauter (28:24):
That's a really good question.
I remember a conversation I hadwith a friend I made through
a meetup group who was doinginformation architecture.
She basically helpedme turn my CV into a
resume, which was huge.
Cause I still had this, youknow, giant CV, because we can't
do anything concise in academia.
(28:47):
So she, she was helping mewith that, and she was doing
information architecture.
So she kind of walked methrough what her job looked
like and was asking me like,What, what is it that you
like, that you want to do?
What's, what'sinteresting to you?
And.
I was talking about research.
The things I was describing verymuch were like, Well, I want
(29:08):
to see how people do things.
I want to make, you know,their experiences better.
I want to see where theproblems are and, you
know, try to fix them.
I love designing experiments.
And she just lookedat me and she's like,
You're a UX researcher.
She's like, don't, don't even,don't apply to this other stuff.
That's what youneed to look for.
Jesse Butts (29:29):
One thing I'm really curious about too,
Megan, is In your change totalent development, you've
talked a lot about growthmindsets and things like that.
Do you think something likethat would have been appealing
to you after grad schoolor earlier in your career?
Or was it something like goingthrough these experiences led
you to a point where somethinglike that would be interesting?
Megan Sauter (29:49):
Yeah.
The ladder I don't.
I don't think early in mycareer, I, I would have been
drawn to like more businessyfunctions, if that makes sense.
The fact that I am, I'mdoing, I'm doing it.
I'm on the people and cultureteam, but it's, it's HR.
So I think if you would'vetold Megan from 2011,
(30:13):
you're going to go into HR,I would have said, What?
I don't know about that.
I'm a psychologist,you know, but, Hmm.
I mean, there'sa lot of overlap.
So yeah, I think I hadto have these experiences
to get where I am.
I've had to learn how tohave a growth mindset.
I've had to explore alot of opportunities.
(30:36):
I've had to have momentswhere, like I had described to
you, where someone, you know,someone's asking me, you know,
what is it, what is it you want?
And my current managerdid that for me too.
She's, she just was like, Whatis it you want from your career?
What are your goals?
And having a question askedlike that, you know, to, to
(30:57):
have that time and space toreflect, to synthesize all
the things that have happenedto get you to where you are.
Like, what energizes you?
Like, what's somethingyou're really good at, but
you never want to do again?
Like all these, allthis self-reflection to
figure out like, Whatis that next evolution?
Like, what's that nextstage like in your career?
(31:19):
I think I would not have hadthe lessons or the wisdom to
do the stuff I'm doing nowhad I not had the experiences.
Jesse Butts (31:29):
One of the semi-common themes in the
show is people kind ofgrappling with the identity
of their grad school workand coming to terms with
adjusting that, letting it go.
Do you feel a lot differentabout that sense of identity
tied to your academicwork now than you did?
Megan Sauter (31:48):
Yeah.
Yes.
100%.
Jesse Butts (31:52):
And how is that different?
Megan Sauter (31:53):
I think, like I said, I didn't have the
healthiest mindset when Iwas early on in, in grad
school or in undergrad.
Just like tying my, tyingmy identities up so much
with being smart, and mybrain, and like what I knew.
(32:14):
Rather than how I seemyself now is I'm a learner.
I had a friend who oncecalled me a collector of
skills and I love that.
Just like, you know, in gradschool another thing that
happened with me is, uh, whenI had my point where I'm like
covered in hives and I'm like,I need to take care of myself,
I started pursuing hobbies.
(32:34):
Either new hobbies, whichcycling was at the time a
gang, I got really into ridingmy bike and photography.
And trying to expand mysense of self was really key.
And I think that's why when Ifinished my dissertation, that I
was able to, to complete it andnot completely burn myself out.
(32:58):
Because I wasn't tyingmy identity so closely
to my area of study.
To being Smart Megan,like I became someone else
through the process andI'm really grateful for it.
Jesse Butts (33:12):
I mean, it's very clear that you're really
interested in your job.
You have a passion for it.
How important to you personally,not asking categorically, how
important is job fit to you?
Do you need to love your job?
Megan Sauter (33:25):
Yeah.
I, I think so.
Cause you spend...
You spend so muchtime at your job?
I heard someone, I went tolike a virtual conference
last year, and I'll paraphrasesomething I heard, which
is like, When you're inleadership, your employees are
sacrificing so much of theirtime to be at your company.
(33:49):
They're sacrificingtime with their family.
They're sacrificing...
you know, other thingsare important to to them.
Make it worth their time.
Make the sacrifice worth it.
And so I, I am really gratefulthat I'm with a company that I
believe in their culture, thatI feel I am making an impact,
(34:14):
I'm liking what I'm doing.
I'm seeing growth potential.
I'm, you know, I love my team.
And those relationshipshave meaning.
I think if I were in a toxicwork environment, that,
that would be like, youknow, 40 hours of my week
that ... it would be hard topull out from that and to
separate, to compartmentalize.
(34:36):
I think what's especiallyimportant to me is
that, is that culture.
And, you know, feeling like whatI'm doing has meaning, and it's,
it's authentic to who I am.
Jesse Butts (34:49):
How would you describe your
relationship to work?
How large of a role doesit play in your life?
Megan Sauter (34:55):
A healthy amount.
Like I said, I went through thatwhole process of, My identity
isn't tied to, to work.
So I, I see myself asMegan, who happens to be a
talent development leader.
Who is a mom.
Who is a partner.
Who lifts weights.
Who does yoga.
Who wants to get backinto improv, you know, as
(35:18):
soon as I can get my kidvaccinated, and I don't have
to wear a mask on stage.
You know, like there's theseother parts of my identity.
A job is an opportunity forme to be myself and to give
of myself in that sphere.
Yeah, so I think, I thinkthat's a, for me, that's
a healthy approach.
Jesse Butts (35:38):
What questions would you recommend someone
in or out of grad school whois kind of clear, you know,
an academic role or, you know,practicing their discipline
might not be for them, andthey're considering something
outside of what they studied?
Megan Sauter (35:55):
So what is it that energizes you?
Is a question I wouldhave them ask themselves.
When do you feel most engaged,happy in like, Csikszentmihalyi
would call a flow state.
Like when are you presentwith the work you're doing,
and you're not thinkingabout anything else?
What's energizing you?
(36:16):
What are you passionate about?
And on the flip side, thatquestion I mentioned, What's
something you're really good atthat you never want to do again?
Cause sometimes, you know,you'll be, you'll, you'll
apply to something, you'llbe in a job interview, if you
realize that the thing thatyou're going to have to do
all the time is something thatyou're already burned out on,
(36:37):
is this the best fit for you?
Or is there something betterthat, that is a better
fit for you right now?
Yeah, I think those are, thoseare some of the big ones.
Jesse Butts (36:47):
Any reading or listening or viewing
recommendations for peopleout there considering making
this kind of a change?
Megan Sauter (36:55):
I guess in talking about mindset, book Mindset is
a good one, by, uh, Carol Dweck?
Carol Dweck, I think.
So that's a great one thatkind of goes into the science
behind the growth mindset.
JoinLearners.com is areally great resource
for, for UX research andgetting into the field.
(37:16):
There's like tons of talks therethat that folks have made, and
some are just really bite-sized.
The other thing I think Iwould recommend is less of
a, a resource about content.
But more about, getting, gettingmore mindfulness in your life.
So I would say startinga mindfulness practice.
(37:38):
So something like The CalmApp or Headspace app, yoga...
any of those things thathelp you feel more, I guess,
centered, cause that's goingto come in handy, no matter
which career path you take.
And especially in transitioninginto a career that can be
very like anxiety provoking.
(38:02):
So how are you takingcare of yourself as you're
making this big transition?
Jesse Butts (38:07):
All right.
Well, I'll include links toall of those in the show notes.
But, Megan, this was awonderful conversation.
Thank you so muchfor joining me.
Megan Sauter (38:15):
Thanks for having me.
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting withMegan Sauter, a PhD in
cognitive psychologyfrom Northwestern turned
talent development leader.
Before taking this role, Meganspent the majority of her career
in user experience research.
She is now the director oftalent development at Answer
(00:43):
Lab, a UX research service.
Megan, welcome.
Thanks for joiningme on the show.
Megan Sauter (00:48):
Thanks so much for having me, Jesse.
I am glad to be here.
Jesse Butts (00:53):
Glad we could find the time.
So before we dive into yourpath from cognitive psychology
to talent development, and I'llbe sure to ask about that user
experience part of it too, butcan you tell us a little bit
about what you're doing now?
What does talentdevelopment involve?
Megan Sauter (01:11):
That's a really good question.
So talent development, Iguess I'll put it this way.
What do you think of when youthink of performance reviews?
Jesse Butts (01:22):
So in my experience, you know, three days
before it was due, trying tothink of what I did for a year.
And then six weeks lateractually having a conversation,
and my manager highlightingwhat I did well and what
could be improved upon.
And then a month or sixweeks later, it was like,
I actually heard aboutthe compensation changes.
(01:43):
So that was my experiencewith performance reviews
for the majority of myworking in house career.
Megan Sauter (01:49):
Yes.
Yeah.
So it can be, like you said,it could be all of this
pressure at the last minute.
If you have a great manager, agreat relationship, it could be
this very enriching experience.
Or it could feel likeyou're being judged.
Very perfunctory.
Like this is just somethingyou have to get done.
It's checking a box.
(02:10):
So the idea of talentdevelopment is turning
that on its head to makeexperiences, professional
development experience, sincethey're really centered on the
person to be centered aroundgrowth rather than judgment.
Rather than, you know, I'mjust doing this, so, you know,
(02:31):
maybe I could get a raise.
I'm just doing this forthis one core reason.
I'm doing this too,because I have to.
So trying to make experiencesthat have a greater meaning to
the individual and in the end,as well as the, as the company.
Because when people are feelinglike they're being supported,
that they're being seen, thatthey're, they have the ability
(02:54):
to explore their talents andtheir own growth paths, the
organization benefits from that.
So that is how I seetalent development.
It's personal development,it's professional development,
and it's, I would hope it'smore, becomes more meaningful
to the individual goingthrough that experience.
Jesse Butts (03:16):
Maybe activities isn't quite the right word, but
how does that kind of break downinto a, a program or a process?
Megan Sauter (03:23):
So I'm trying to think of how do I want to
best frame this, without givingaway all the secret sauce.
I'd say my philosophy isbuilt around the growth
mindset, which means thatthis intelligence and skills
we have, they're not fixedtraits, but they're, we all
(03:44):
have that potential to, to grow.
And I also see the skillsbuilding as a process and a
practice, meaning learninga skill i s something
that happens over time.
It's not something thatit's just one point in time.
You get it.
It's flipping on a light switch.
Most skills don'twork like that.
(04:05):
It takes time to, to learn,to cultivate, to have a
chance, to practice, tomess up, to get feedback.
So it takes time.
And it's not something that'sjust, that can only be done
like once a year or twice ayear or every quarter in a
performance review cycle ortalent development cycle.
Rather, it's something thatis, is always happening.
(04:27):
So there are official processesthat are put in place like
talent development cycles,is what I'll refer to them
as, where you do have thatchance to reflect, to, to fill
out, an assessment similarto, to what you described,
but making sure it's reallyhuman centered, based around
(04:47):
the skills and the learninggoals the individual has.
And then meeting with yourtalent development partner,
which is your manager, toreally explore those goals
and come to some ideas ofhow you want to continue
to cultivate those skills.
So very much there's processesin place, but it's also an
overarching philosophy orculture that you always
(05:11):
have the ability to grow andmaking sure that you have
those opportunities to grow.
Jesse Butts (05:16):
Well, I mean, I, I certainly look forward
to a better system than whatI had, had experience with.
So Megan, going back a little,can you tell us a little
bit about what prompted youto enroll in grad school?
Like what were you hoping toachieve by going to grad school?
Megan Sauter (05:32):
Oh, what a question.
So I've always just beenin love with learning.
Since I was really young.
And I went to college becauseI wanted to keep learning and
I couldn't, I couldn't decideon even what to major in.
So I double majored inEnglish and psychology.
I was always fascinatedabout learning, I guess, of
(05:55):
human stories and the humanexperiences, how we work.
I was going to have a minorin Spanish, but I was like,
I already was at the pointwhere I was petitioning
my college to take moreclasses than they thought a
human student should take.
Uh, so just give you aperspective, like I just
(06:15):
was just this voraciouslearning machine.
And so grad school, it madesense to me in that mindset of,
well, I need to just keep going.
And I thought, Yeah, I mightwant to be a professor.
Like I could see myselfjust living in a, a place
of learning for the restof my life in some way.
(06:37):
And in a way I am.
Talent development, thatis all about learning
and, and personal growth.
, It's a very different pathwaythan I could have envisioned
when I was, what 22?
Whatever it was, I wasfinishing college and
going off to grad school.
But it did take sometime to figure out, do
I want to do psychology?
Do I want to gointo English lit?
(07:00):
I toyed with the idea ofstudying creative writing.
And I ended up landingon psychology partially
through just the experiencesand opportunities I had
in the psychology honorsprogram at Arizona State.
Jesse Butts (07:17):
Where you went to college?
Megan Sauter (07:19):
Undergrad, yeah.
Jesse Butts (07:19):
Okay.
As you started the program,were you still in the early
stages thinking that you wouldprobably become a professor or
something along those lines?
Or when did a shiftstart to occur?
Megan Sauter (07:33):
Yes, I think early on.
I did well, but I was inover my head in some ways.
And some of it had to do withjust my relationship to learning
and how, honestly, I think,I think I really did have
a fixed, that fixed mindsetwhere I'm like, I'm smart.
(07:54):
And so any time there wascriticism, or I didn't do
well, it just had, just a hugeimpact on my mental health.
And it was not sustainable.
So in undergrad I usedto stay up and pull all
nighters, write papers.
I tried doing those things,things in grad school
(08:15):
and it just wrecked me.
By the end of my firstsemester, I was like, you
can not keep going like this.
Like something had to change.
I had to develop not justbetter habits for how I
was pursuing projects andknowledge and writing,
but just my relationshipto my work had to shift.
(08:37):
I remember probably in mythird, second or third year
of grad school, I was flyingto DC for a conference there.
I was going to present there.
And I got off the plane, Iwas covered in like bumps.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, Icaught something on the plane.
I have like an illness.
It's like what's happening.
And I called student health.
(08:58):
And after talking to themfor a few minutes, they're
like, you have stress.
This sounds like stress hives.
Take some Benadryl.
And it was kind of a wake upcall of for someone like me
who studies human cognition,that the head, the brain is
not just this floating thingdetached from your body.
That the decisions that you makeimpact your health, your body.
(09:22):
Like there is that strongmind-body connection.
And I'd say, like sincethat time, I have really
been focusing on how, howto create harmony in that.
Jesse Butts (09:34):
While you were kind of going through this
self discovery, learning thata career path in academia
might not be right with you,were you still enjoying the,
the subject matter itself?
Megan Sauter (09:45):
Yes.
I was.
So even when things became,I guess, more sustainable
for me, and more enjoyablefor me, later in grad
school, I was questioningwhether I wanted to be a
professor for another reason.
So in going to theseconferences, I would
often meet with people whoare teachers who had...
(10:07):
they were involved inmuseum programming.
And they would see some posterI did, some work that I had
done about like a lab study.
And they're like, Oh, I couldsee this being an activity
that I could work with, youknow, the kids at the museum,
or the students at my school.
And hearing that applicationbe applied to someone to
(10:27):
make, to help them learnsomething or give them a better
experience in some way thathad a major influence on me.
I remember talking to my, myadvisor had a dual appointment
in psychology and the schoolof education and social policy.
And so there were somegrants on, on learning.
And about halfway through mygrad experience while I was
(10:50):
preparing for, you know, tofigure out my dissertation.
It was like, what can I do?
Like what, what opportunitiesmight we have to explore
something a little more applied?
Jesse Butts (11:00):
Sorry, I probably should have asked
this earlier, but how,how long was your program?
Megan Sauter (11:05):
I took about, five and a half years, I wanna say.
Five, five and a half years,somewhere around that.
Jesse Butts (11:10):
So when you were in year four, five,
as you were, you finishedcomps, you were, you know,
defending your dissertation.
What were you thinking atthat point that you would
do once you graduated?
Megan Sauter (11:24):
So this is interesting.
I had already done allmy data collection.
I was doing like the bigwriting and the analysis
piece of my dissertation.
My partner, my now husband,he's in tech and he, we
were in Chicago and he gota job out in San Francisco.
So, I've always beeninterested in tech.
(11:46):
And you might be able to startseeing like, okay, like, yeah,
the application technology,like there's a lot of things
that were coming together.
So I talked to my advisorabout, Okay, I have a few
months left of writing.
How would you feel if I did thisremotely from San Francisco?
(12:08):
And I tried it out alittle bit before I moved
officially, but one of thethings that that enabled me
to do, so I did finish my,my dissertation on time.
I'm really proud of mywork ethic during that,
and how I got it done.
So what it enabled me todo being out in the Bay
Area is there was like alot of opportunities for
(12:31):
folks with my background inthe emerging field of UX.
Or in educationalresearch and data science.
Like there's a lot ofcool ideas out there.
So I was able to meet withdifferent folks who had
jobs that seemed interesting.
And I just talked to them totry to figure out, like,
(12:52):
what is it I want it to do?
What part of UX?
Was it information architecture?
Was it research?
Are there jobs whereyou just do UX research?
Which now it's very prevalent,but you know, then, you
know, you'd see like kindof more UX general jobs
and a lot of design, likeinteraction design jobs.
So I joined up with like ameetup for coding because
(13:15):
I wasn't sure if I wantedto do data science or if
I wanted to do somethingwhere that would be useful.
So I was, I was exploring.
By the time I defended mydissertation, I wasn't sure
exactly what it was, but Ihad an idea that it would
be somewhere in technology.
Somewhere related to howpeople are interacting with
(13:36):
tech, and it maybe will havethe, the, the acronym UX
involved in there somwhere.
Jesse Butts (13:44):
And that was brought about mainly by
just having conversationswith people, you said?
Megan Sauter (13:49):
Yeah.
My first conversation wasactually someone I went to
grad school with who had beenin tech during the initial
bubble in the early 2000sand then went to grad school.
So I remember them talkingto me like, I, we went out
for like coffee or a beerand just, I asked questions
about what it was like, and,you know, what, what kinds
(14:11):
of jobs might be related.
And at the time inthe early 2000s, UX
wasn't the term for it.
There were some other termsfor what that looks like.
But I had some ideasthere that there's, there
could be some potential.
Jesse Butts (14:28):
So once you graduated, did you then kind
of pound the pavement lookingfor work in California?
Megan Sauter (14:36):
Yes.
Um, one of my favorite storiesabout this was I had a couple
of friends that I met on along cycling trip that, they
were also moving out to,they had been in Chicago.
They were also movingout to the Bay Area.
Similar timing.
And one of them was a gradstudents at one of the
(14:56):
schools out in the Bay Area.
And I remembered them tellingme like, Hey Megan, there's
a grad, there's a grad,there's a grad school job
fair that's going on, just forgrad students at our school.
You should just go.
You should just printout your resume and go.
Just sneak in.
And so that's what I did.
So I just printed out my resume.
(15:16):
I went to this job fairfor a different school.
Um, I, I got an interviewand I got flown out
to like, The DC area.
It was like a very, a verylike governmenty type.
It wasn't for the government,but it was like a company
that was like heavilyinvolved in government stuff.
(15:37):
So I got to interview there andexplore what that vibe was like.
And that particular job wasnot for me, but I really
appreciated like everything...
you know, that theysaw something in me.
And they, they gaveme that opportunity.
Jesse Butts (15:53):
What was it, uh, what is it, maybe I
should say too, about userexperience that you initially
found really interesting?
Megan Sauter (16:03):
I think it's all, it's all the things that
when you use a new, like anew site or a new app or a new
video game that make you rage.
That you're like, Whydid someone do this?
Like, why did theyput button here.
Why did they make itthis easy to close this
and lose all my work?
Like, those are thethings like that...
(16:24):
I feel like I could have aninfluence in that not happening.
I can make someone's day better.
Jesse Butts (16:32):
How much of that desire or...
yeah, desire to do thatwork was coupled with
the cognitive psychologybackground that you had.
Megan Sauter (16:42):
Oh, probably a good amount because there's
all these little things.
Like I remember working on aproject and realizing why people
were missing information wasbased around visual processing.
And how there's thesedifferent, like Gestalt
principles of grouping thingstogether or prioritization.
(17:03):
And the way information wasflowing across this page
was it didn't align withsome of those principles.
So I would find all thesecognitive heuristics that
either like that was what wasbehind an issue or could be
used to help fix an issue.
Jesse Butts (17:24):
Did you end up relocating to the
DC area for this job?
Megan Sauter (17:26):
No.
Oh no, I did nottake the DC job.
I, I just, I stayedin the Bay Area but I
flew out to interview.
So I got my start in UXactually at Answer Lab.
So at the company I am stillat today that I've been able
to explore my own career path.
I started as a UX researcher.
Jesse Butts (17:46):
What does that type of work look like?
What are you doing day to day,week to week as a UX researcher?
At least when you started.
Megan Sauter (17:53):
My favorite part about it is...
I never want to be bored, asyou could probably tell from
all the different interestsand things I've explored,
like I want to keep learning.
And that was somethingthat was a constant
being a UX researcher.
So this is a clientservices firm.
So I got to work with lotsof different clients, lots
(18:15):
of different products.
And our clients would cometo us with a product or
an issue, something theywant to learn more about.
And then I got to figure outlike, How do you take their
goal and kind of reverseengineer that into a task?
Like a behavioral taskwhere you get to interview
(18:37):
a person and importantlyobserve their behaviors
while using that product.
I got to do ethnographicresearch where you actually
go to locations wherepeople are doing their job.
They're using thesedifferent products and tools.
I got to do usability testing.
Lots of different techniques,both from the kind of
(19:01):
exploratory ,to building theproduct, to, It's already
out there, let's keepiterating and make it better.
But just like in the lab...
So what brought me to thearea of cognitive development
that I was doing, I did, Idid cognitive development.
That's the area of cognitivepsychology I was at.
And part of the challengethere when you're working
(19:24):
with kids, you have to takea research question and
turn it into something thatyour, your population, your
sample, like kids could dothat would also illustrate,
you know, it'll answerthe question you're doing.
So it felt going from likethat, where I had to like,
(19:45):
say I had a question aboutlike, How do kids develop the
ability to, to think spatially?
How do kids develop theability to communicate
about, you know, navigation?
And, and then I hadto it into a game.
I had to figure out likewhat metrics I was using
to, to actually measurewhat was happening.
Measure if a learningintervention worked.
(20:07):
So that knowledge, I was ableto apply as a UX researcher
because essentially I wouldhave 10, 12 people coming into
the lab or logging onto theircomputer and talking to me.
And I would have to ask theright questions, give them
the right tasks for themto demonstrate a behavior.
(20:30):
To demonstrate something thatwould give me the information
to answer my client's question.
Jesse Butts (20:37):
So how did that anticipation or
that idea match reality?
I mean, was it kind ofa, an instant click?
Or were there some adjustments?
How did you feel aboutthe work once you got your
hands dirty, so to speak?
Megan Sauter (20:52):
So once I started, I enjoyed it a great deal.
Another thing that happenedaround that time, it sounds
funny that I left Chicagoand that's when I started
to do improv comedy.
But I started doing improvin San Francisco while I was
starting my research career.
And that had a big impact onit because when you're, when
(21:15):
you're doing these interviewswith people, sometimes
you really have to followthe thread of what's going
on because there could besomething even beyond like the
slice that you're focused onthat's causing greater issues
or could be an even greaterdevelopment, for your client
for the overall experience.
I found that thatreally helped me.
(21:38):
As I was becoming aresearcher, I was growing
in a lot of different ways.
So I was learning moreabout working in tech.
I was learning moreabout consultative...
just being a consultant,because that, that
was the role I was in.
But I was, I was also likejust learning these other
skills that helped me too.
Jesse Butts (21:57):
I think you might be the first guest who's been
continuously with one employersince finishing grad school.
So I, I'm curious aboutyour progression, your
different roles, thingslike that with the company.
So how was what you'redoing, you know, year
one different from maybeyear five at the company?
Megan Sauter (22:17):
Great question.
Well, I think I've, I've,had the ability, I think, to
grow as my company has grown.
And the culture that we'veset up, the mentors I've
had, has allowed me to pursuedifferent areas of, of UX, of
(22:37):
leadership, as we've grown.
So, I started as a UX researcherand I spent maybe two and a
half, three years doing that.
And then we were growingour strategy team.
So strategy for us is,you know, developing these
relationships with clients,scoping out these research
(22:59):
programs and, and projects.
And, you know, I liketo keep, keep learning.
That was like, Oh this issomething I haven't done before.
The person who would bemy manager was someone
I really looked up to.
I had worked with before.
I felt like I couldlearn so much from her.
And so, and I would getto work with clients that
(23:19):
I had great relationshipswith as a researcher.
And so I could help themcontinue to build their products
and build that relationship.
So it just was a kind ofa beautiful opportunity
for all of those reasons.
And I did that for abouttwo and a half years.
And then we were growingand there, one of the things
(23:42):
that I found that I loved inthat role was working closely
with the researchers whowere doing the projects that
I had initially designed.
And I was starting to sharpenmy skills as a mentor.
And we had an opportunity,as our research management
team was growing, for me totake on a role as a research
(24:06):
manager and actually oversee...
build out our onboardingprogram, as we were growing.
So that was incredibly exciting.
So I was a research managerup until about a year ago when
the talent development directorrole opened and allowed me to
(24:28):
take my experience navigatingmy own career path and help
mentor and guide others andcreate processes for our company
to, to just really cultivatethe learning of our, of our
talented folks who work here.
Jesse Butts (24:47):
When that opportunity surfaced, were you
in a place of thinking of...
I mean, everything that youhad talked about kind of
seemed like a, a progressionin ways, or, I mean, like in
the same broad discipline,maybe would be a way to put it.
Were you looking for somethingthat was a bit different?
Did the opportunitypresent itself and you
hadn't considered it?
Like what, what wasthat process like?
Megan Sauter (25:10):
Probably more the latter.
I, I mean, I love thatI've managed some amazing
people, and I developed greatrelationships with my team and,
you know, still being, havingthat experience and being a
manager is still somethingthat is near and dear to me.
So I wasn't looking forreally anything different.
(25:31):
It was more that thatopportunity came and, you
know, my manager at the timeand my current manager kind
of came to me with, with somepossibilities to explore.
Jesse Butts (25:45):
So what are you enjoying most
about talent development?
Megan Sauter (25:51):
So there's a few things.
One is leadership development?
So having been a managerfor four years, I've learned
just what an incrediblerole that person can play
on their team members.
Not just their, their work-life,but really like you can
have a big impact, in termsof being able to use your
(26:12):
power to remove barriers.
Or to help people findopportunities to coach.
It's a really valuable role.
And so I have focused in mytime on leadership development
opportunities for, for managers.
How to support them, because itcan also be a really tough role.
(26:34):
You know, you might be havingto react to a lot of different
teams or a lot of differentthings that are happening,
you know, how do you takecare of yourself while you're
taking care of your team?
What boundaries doyou need to set?
How can you best support people?
How do you get away fromthe idea of a, especially
if you're someone, if you'resomeone who held a role,
(26:56):
say you were a researcherand you become a research
manager ... it's very, it's avery different mindset, right?
So how do you get into thatmanager mindset that just
because someone's doingsomething differently than
the way you, you would havedone it in that role, that you
can still see their style andempower them for who they are?
If they're doing somethingthat, is creating, you
(27:18):
know, effective results.
So, you know, managerscan just have a, I think,
make or break role.
It's just like professionaldevelopment opportunities
is one of the reasonspeople leave a company.
Their manager relationshipis up there too.
So that's, that's beenan area that is a bit of
(27:39):
a passion area for me.
And the other is...
there's been a lot ofopportunity to embrace
the really gray, stickychallenges that...
I like puzzles.
I like trying tofigure things out.
I love building things.
I like collaboratingwith people.
And I get to do all of that inthis role, especially for the
(28:00):
fact that this role is, is new.
I mean, I've, I'vebeen in it for a year.
So there's still lotsof things that I'm
learning and figuring out.
Jesse Butts (28:09):
What did you have to learn about yourself
to find work that fit you?
Like why did some of thoseother ideas just not seem
as appealing or, or franklyjust like a good fit as user
experience did at that time?
Megan Sauter (28:24):
That's a really good question.
I remember a conversation I hadwith a friend I made through
a meetup group who was doinginformation architecture.
She basically helpedme turn my CV into a
resume, which was huge.
Cause I still had this, youknow, giant CV, because we can't
do anything concise in academia.
(28:47):
So she, she was helping mewith that, and she was doing
information architecture.
So she kind of walked methrough what her job looked
like and was asking me like,What, what is it that you
like, that you want to do?
What's, what'sinteresting to you?
And.
I was talking about research.
The things I was describing verymuch were like, Well, I want
(29:08):
to see how people do things.
I want to make, you know,their experiences better.
I want to see where theproblems are and, you
know, try to fix them.
I love designing experiments.
And she just lookedat me and she's like,
You're a UX researcher.
She's like, don't, don't even,don't apply to this other stuff.
That's what youneed to look for.
Jesse Butts (29:29):
One thing I'm really curious about too,
Megan, is In your change totalent development, you've
talked a lot about growthmindsets and things like that.
Do you think something likethat would have been appealing
to you after grad schoolor earlier in your career?
Or was it something like goingthrough these experiences led
you to a point where somethinglike that would be interesting?
Megan Sauter (29:49):
Yeah.
The ladder I don't.
I don't think early in mycareer, I, I would have been
drawn to like more businessyfunctions, if that makes sense.
The fact that I am, I'mdoing, I'm doing it.
I'm on the people and cultureteam, but it's, it's HR.
So I think if you would'vetold Megan from 2011,
(30:13):
you're going to go into HR,I would have said, What?
I don't know about that.
I'm a psychologist,you know, but, Hmm.
I mean, there'sa lot of overlap.
So yeah, I think I hadto have these experiences
to get where I am.
I've had to learn how tohave a growth mindset.
I've had to explore alot of opportunities.
(30:36):
I've had to have momentswhere, like I had described to
you, where someone, you know,someone's asking me, you know,
what is it, what is it you want?
And my current managerdid that for me too.
She's, she just was like, Whatis it you want from your career?
What are your goals?
And having a question askedlike that, you know, to, to
(30:57):
have that time and space toreflect, to synthesize all
the things that have happenedto get you to where you are.
Like, what energizes you?
Like, what's somethingyou're really good at, but
you never want to do again?
Like all these, allthis self-reflection to
figure out like, Whatis that next evolution?
Like, what's that nextstage like in your career?
(31:19):
I think I would not have hadthe lessons or the wisdom to
do the stuff I'm doing nowhad I not had the experiences.
Jesse Butts (31:29):
One of the semi-common themes in the
show is people kind ofgrappling with the identity
of their grad school workand coming to terms with
adjusting that, letting it go.
Do you feel a lot differentabout that sense of identity
tied to your academicwork now than you did?
Megan Sauter (31:48):
Yeah.
Yes.
100%.
Jesse Butts (31:52):
And how is that different?
Megan Sauter (31:53):
I think, like I said, I didn't have the
healthiest mindset when Iwas early on in, in grad
school or in undergrad.
Just like tying my, tyingmy identities up so much
with being smart, and mybrain, and like what I knew.
(32:14):
Rather than how I seemyself now is I'm a learner.
I had a friend who oncecalled me a collector of
skills and I love that.
Just like, you know, in gradschool another thing that
happened with me is, uh, whenI had my point where I'm like
covered in hives and I'm like,I need to take care of myself,
I started pursuing hobbies.
(32:34):
Either new hobbies, whichcycling was at the time a
gang, I got really into ridingmy bike and photography.
And trying to expand mysense of self was really key.
And I think that's why when Ifinished my dissertation, that I
was able to, to complete it andnot completely burn myself out.
(32:58):
Because I wasn't tyingmy identity so closely
to my area of study.
To being Smart Megan,like I became someone else
through the process andI'm really grateful for it.
Jesse Butts (33:12):
I mean, it's very clear that you're really
interested in your job.
You have a passion for it.
How important to you personally,not asking categorically, how
important is job fit to you?
Do you need to love your job?
Megan Sauter (33:25):
Yeah.
I, I think so.
Cause you spend...
You spend so muchtime at your job?
I heard someone, I went tolike a virtual conference
last year, and I'll paraphrasesomething I heard, which
is like, When you're inleadership, your employees are
sacrificing so much of theirtime to be at your company.
(33:49):
They're sacrificingtime with their family.
They're sacrificing...
you know, other thingsare important to to them.
Make it worth their time.
Make the sacrifice worth it.
And so I, I am really gratefulthat I'm with a company that I
believe in their culture, thatI feel I am making an impact,
(34:14):
I'm liking what I'm doing.
I'm seeing growth potential.
I'm, you know, I love my team.
And those relationshipshave meaning.
I think if I were in a toxicwork environment, that,
that would be like, youknow, 40 hours of my week
that ... it would be hard topull out from that and to
separate, to compartmentalize.
(34:36):
I think what's especiallyimportant to me is
that, is that culture.
And, you know, feeling like whatI'm doing has meaning, and it's,
it's authentic to who I am.
Jesse Butts (34:49):
How would you describe your
relationship to work?
How large of a role doesit play in your life?
Megan Sauter (34:55):
A healthy amount.
Like I said, I went through thatwhole process of, My identity
isn't tied to, to work.
So I, I see myself asMegan, who happens to be a
talent development leader.
Who is a mom.
Who is a partner.
Who lifts weights.
Who does yoga.
Who wants to get backinto improv, you know, as
(35:18):
soon as I can get my kidvaccinated, and I don't have
to wear a mask on stage.
You know, like there's theseother parts of my identity.
A job is an opportunity forme to be myself and to give
of myself in that sphere.
Yeah, so I think, I thinkthat's a, for me, that's
a healthy approach.
Jesse Butts (35:38):
What questions would you recommend someone
in or out of grad school whois kind of clear, you know,
an academic role or, you know,practicing their discipline
might not be for them, andthey're considering something
outside of what they studied?
Megan Sauter (35:55):
So what is it that energizes you?
Is a question I wouldhave them ask themselves.
When do you feel most engaged,happy in like, Csikszentmihalyi
would call a flow state.
Like when are you presentwith the work you're doing,
and you're not thinkingabout anything else?
What's energizing you?
(36:16):
What are you passionate about?
And on the flip side, thatquestion I mentioned, What's
something you're really good atthat you never want to do again?
Cause sometimes, you know,you'll be, you'll, you'll
apply to something, you'llbe in a job interview, if you
realize that the thing thatyou're going to have to do
all the time is something thatyou're already burned out on,
(36:37):
is this the best fit for you?
Or is there something betterthat, that is a better
fit for you right now?
Yeah, I think those are, thoseare some of the big ones.
Jesse Butts (36:47):
Any reading or listening or viewing
recommendations for peopleout there considering making
this kind of a change?
Megan Sauter (36:55):
I guess in talking about mindset, book Mindset is
a good one, by, uh, Carol Dweck?
Carol Dweck, I think.
So that's a great one thatkind of goes into the science
behind the growth mindset.
JoinLearners.com is areally great resource
for, for UX research andgetting into the field.
(37:16):
There's like tons of talks therethat that folks have made, and
some are just really bite-sized.
The other thing I think Iwould recommend is less of
a, a resource about content.
But more about, getting, gettingmore mindfulness in your life.
So I would say startinga mindfulness practice.
(37:38):
So something like The CalmApp or Headspace app, yoga...
any of those things thathelp you feel more, I guess,
centered, cause that's goingto come in handy, no matter
which career path you take.
And especially in transitioninginto a career that can be
very like anxiety provoking.
(38:02):
So how are you takingcare of yourself as you're
making this big transition?
Jesse Butts (38:07):
All right.
Well, I'll include links toall of those in the show notes.
But, Megan, this was awonderful conversation.
Thank you so muchfor joining me.
Megan Sauter (38:15):
Thanks for having me.
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