September 7, 2022 • 40 mins
A future of intellectual exploration and research drew Tory to grad school. But two seasons of an unfruitful tenure-track search prompted her to question what she wanted out of work — and where she wanted to do it.
After 40 or 50 informational interviews with anyone willing to chat about their careers, Tory landed a data science role in Silicon Valley. She soon discovered a passion for coaching as she mentored her employees.
In May 2020, she founded Academic Exit to help social science PhDs succeed in the tech industry. Now she focuses on what she enjoyed most from her time at Meta (Facebook) and Google with the independence she missed from her academic days.
And her willingness to explore what she truly wanted out of a job and to untangle her academic achievements from her work — and overall — identity made all the difference.
Where to find Tory & her work
Tory (Academic Exit) on Gumroad
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesse Butts (00:23):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting withTory Wobber, a PhD in
human evolutionary biologyfrom Harvard turned career
and leadership coach.
Tory is the founder ofAcademic Exit where she
helps social science PhDssucceed in the tech industry.
(00:43):
After she worked fortech leaders, such
as Google and Meta.
Tory, welcome to the show.
Delighted to have you on.
Tory Wobber (00:50):
Thanks so much for having me here, Jesse.
It's really great to join.
Jesse Butts (00:54):
Before we dive into how you found your way
from something as seeminglydisparate as human evolutionary
biology to career coachingfor social science folks, can
you tell us a little bit aboutwhat your work today involves?
Like how are you helpingthese social science PhDs
transition into careers in tech?
Tory Wobber (01:16):
Yeah, thanks for asking, Jesse.
It's.
It's funny.
I work with folks who havehad enough of academia
and who are ready tomove into something new.
I work with folks around techin particular, just because
that's where I worked, andso I can speak to the sort of
domain of how to land a rolethere with experience having
served on hiring committees.
(01:37):
I think while I was atFacebook, I, I hired, you
know, a hundred people, notas a hiring manager, but I
was on the interview loops.
So I saw a lot of processes.
And so I had that chance toactually have the expertise of
the academic world and the techworld and help make connections.
For folks who've decidedthat they're done with
the academic hoopla.
Jesse Butts (01:56):
Are your typical clients, you know,
have they been either intenure track or kind of
adjunct hell for a while?
Or are they, just wrapping uptheir PhDs and thinking that,
The career I thought I wanted inacademia is not sounding quite
as appealing as it did, youknow, in my first couple years?
Like where do they fall onthat kind of a spectrum?
Tory Wobber (02:18):
Yeah, I would say I probably get three clusters.
One are actually folks who arein maybe their third or fourth
year of their PhD and who arealready saying, Hey, something
about this isn't for me.
Can I get an internship tosee what else is out there?
So they're very early onsaying, I might not wanna
continue this path and explore.
(02:39):
Another are folks who areABD, finishing their PhD
post doc, who are maybeon the faculty job market.
They've maybe doneit a season or two.
And they're saying, Nono, no, no, no, no, no.
Wait a minute.
No.
And so they're looking forsomething else at that point.
And then I'm now getting athird cluster who are tenure
track or tenured facultymembers who are saying, This no
(03:02):
longer meets what I expected.
And so those are folks who...
I actually run into as manytenured folks as I do adjunct
or other situations whoare saying, You know what?
The growth here has stopped.
I can't move and mypartner needs to move.
And so they're recognizingthe limitation of those
positions and moving on.
Jesse Butts (03:21):
So I'm curious, you know, going back to your story,
Tory, what were you thinking ornot, not in a, I don't mean that
any like, accusatory way, butlike what was going on in, in
your head when you were thinkingabout going to grad school?
What made you want togo beyond undergrad?
Tory Wobber (03:40):
Yeah.
What were you thinking?
No, it's, well, it's funny.
I, I was thinking all aboutthis and remembering one
specific conversation.
I was sitting in the officeof a grad student who I
was a research assistantfor as an undergrad.
Hearing him and another graduatestudent talk about grad school.
And they used the termIntellectual Masturbation.
(04:02):
I don't know if that's toorisque for, for your podcast,
but I heard that and Isaid, Wow, that sounds fun.
Intellectual masturbation.
I could do that.
And so it was a very easypath to go to grad school.
But I don't think at the end ofundergrad that I ever did any
pause, assessment of the optionsand then choice of grad school.
(04:23):
It was more a continuationof really loving
research as an undergrad.
And it was only, you know, six,seven years later when I was
on the faculty job market thatI paused and said, Hang on.
Is this actually meetingmy values and standards?
So I really followed mygut, which led me to a great
experience with my PhD.
But then after that, the, thepath was not as rosy, and I
(04:45):
then was sort of forced to dothat assessment of, Hey, what
does this job actually mean?
Jesse Butts (04:51):
And you said that point of assessment was in
your sixth or seventh year.
So, so before that, wereyou feeling pretty confident
in either working in alab for a while or, or
a tenure track position?
Like what were you thinkingbefore that point of assessment?
Tory Wobber (05:08):
Yeah.
I very much pictured myselfin a faculty position.
And I, I hesitate to saythis because many folks
will get angry, but Ienjoyed doing my PhD.
Many folks struggle with thePhD and have frustrations.
I actually liked the PhD part.
But as I got to the end, soI did my PhD in six years, I
applied for faculty positionsduring my final year of PhD.
(05:29):
And then during oneyear of postdoc.
And it was only thenwhen I started going to
these departments andtalking to folks, I was
saying, What is this?
What have, what have Idone all this work for?
I thought that this would beabout continued intellectual
masturbation and fun andgetting to do research.
But I, I think I recognizethe hard reality of needing
(05:50):
to position your work, needingto get funding, needing
to have these other folksinterested in your work in
ways that no longer retainedthat purity that I had loved.
And so it was a rudeawakening after two
seasons on the job market.
And I think onlythen was I forced to
consider other options.
But I had absolutelyconsidered myself going on
(06:13):
in taking a faculty role.
Jesse Butts (06:14):
And were those two seasons of looking for a
tenure track position afteryou had graduated ?Or was
like one or two of them orone or both of them, I should
say, were they, while youwere wrapping up your PhD?
Tory Wobber (06:26):
I did one when I was ABD and one the year
after I completed with my PhD.
And I had pretty good successat getting interviews.
I had six interview loops,which at least in my field
was pretty good becausemy CV was really strong.
But I didn't have any offers.
And the last place thatdidn't give me an offer
was my home department, thedepartment where I did my PhD.
(06:50):
And I remember I had decidedbefore that last year, that
second year, Okay, if nothingworks out this year, I'm
gonna look for industry roles.
And so my home departmentin, you know, March of 2013
had said, No, we don't wantto extend you an offer.
And by July I had an offer andjumped over to work at Facebook.
Jesse Butts (07:08):
Can you walk us through a little bit about
that pre-Facebook offer.
Like how did, how didyou get to that point?
Were you looking in tech?
Was it fascinating to you?
Were you, sending yourresume anywhere that
looked remotely compatible?
Like, what wasthat process like?
Tory Wobber (07:23):
Yeah, well, and I'll, I'll
speak to my stages here.
And I've seen now many folksgo through these same stages.
I think I've coached morethan 50, almost 60 folks
through this transition.
And so I can say there are sortof phases that folks go through.
The first one was justallowing myself to look.
Right?
The permission to say, Iwanna do something other
than academics, was reallyscary, intimidating, and,
(07:46):
and sometimes sad for me.
So that first stage, andactually that year of that last
year on the job market was justsaying, Okay, this is the point
when I'm ready to, to move on.
I then explored really broadly.
So I did a lot of informationalinterviews where I spoke
with folks about their jobs.
And I probably did about 40to 50 of those because I had
(08:07):
no idea what I wanted to do.
Yeah.
I was talking to anyone.
Like, guys I had had crushon in college, a friend's
mom, like someone whowould meet at Starbucks.
Right.
Like really just tryingto chat with folks
about, What do you do?
Because I had no idea.
And I landed on data sciencebecause it felt like a good
(08:27):
way to leverage things thatI enjoyed about my PhD.
Sort of this data drivenhypothesis testing, controlled
experimentation, whichthey called AB testing.
I started learning SQLand I enjoyed that.
And so it felt like anopportunity to take my
skills and put them ina fast growing field.
And so only after maybe acouple of months of exploration,
(08:49):
did I hone in on data scienceand then really optimize
my resume towards that andtry to find a position.
And so I got my position atFacebook through a referral.
I think of a friend of afriend of a friend worked
there and was willing topass through my resume.
And then I was able tofinagle my way through the
interview to land the role.
Jesse Butts (09:09):
And just for, for clarity SQL, that's
a, a database, right?
A database language.
Tory Wobber (09:15):
Yes.
Jesse Butts (09:15):
Got it.
So what, what were you doingin, in this data science role?
Like what were those first fewyears of Facebook like for you?
Tory Wobber (09:24):
Yeah, filled with culture shocks.
And I think I I'm extremelyfortunate because, a fellow
PhD who had worked withthe same career advisor at
Harvard, who I had was there.
And she connected us.
And so he was a great resourcefor me, as well as some managers
who had managed PhDs and couldsort of give it to me straight.
(09:47):
And so they were able to help menavigate some of the challenges.
But wow, was it different.
Right?
It really is just a completelydifferent way of work between
academics and data science.
Now that doesn't mean thatmy experience didn't matter.
I had knowledge ofstatistics, probability,
how to frame a quantitativequestion that aren't that
(10:09):
present in that area.
And so my skillswere really valuable.
But the amount of otherlearning I had to do to
sort of understand howdoes work get done here?
And how do I take myskills and apply them?
That took a long time.
And I would say Facebook, itprobably took me about a year
and a half to figure out how toactually get things done well.
(10:30):
And then when I moved overto Google, I probably only
figured that place outafter about three years.
I think after three years, Iwas really hitting my stride.
And I say those things just toreally normalize that, Okay,
within the first three to sixmonths, you have a sense, but
there's continued learningin terms of how do I execute
well in this environment.
That happens for years on end.
Jesse Butts (10:52):
So, so I'm a little curious, you know, for people
who might have the researchbackground, social sciences,
like applying what they'velearned at Facebook, like what
were you helping Facebook do?
I mean, like what, what problemswas your data analysis and,
you know, your methodologyhelping to solve for them?
Tory Wobber (11:09):
Yeah, well, I'll give you my quirky answer
and then my genuine answer.
My quirky answer was thatmy PhD was with chimpanzees.
And so I'd say, Hey, youknow, chimpanzee behavior,
behavior of folks onFacebook, not too different.
Like, that's sort ofthe quirky answer.
If we wanna, you know, poke funat ourselves on social media.
So in, in reality, what Facebookdoes with data ultimately is
(11:32):
try to make the product better.
Right?
And you can dispute, you cansee the, the sort of stories
in the news about how theyuse data or misuse data.
But at least during my timethere, the experience I
had was, Let's understandhow to make this product
more usable for folks.
So for example, one of theexperiments I worked on when
I was first there was aroundhow folks used a specific
(11:55):
aspect of the product.
And we did an AB test.
So we basically had thecontrol, which was the
current version of theproduct, tested against a new
developer, you know, version.
And we compared the two witha sort of random sub sample
of folks to then see, Okay,which one is actually creating
(12:16):
the user outcomes that wewanna see, which we believe
are good user outcomes.
And from those results, wewere able to say, Hey, this
new variant actually seems tobe creating better outcomes.
So let's replace the formervariant with this one.
And so that sense of usingcontrolled experiments, which
I had done, you know, countlessnumbers of as a grad student,
(12:37):
but then to say, How do wemake this product better?
It was a new domain area,but the methods and the
hypothesis testing werevery familiar to me.
Jesse Butts (12:46):
And it, it's my understanding they're
running hundreds if notthousands of these tests.
And so I imagine it's justan incredible amount of
information to keep track of.
Tory Wobber (12:57):
Yeah.
And it's interesting becauseas a data person, you know,
and I'll speak to Facebookat the time I worked there.
And I'm referring to it Facebookjust because between 2013 to
2015 that's what it was called.
It's now Meta.
You know, the, the datathere, even with a tiny, tiny
percentage of users, right.
I think Facebook has close to2 billion users at this point.
(13:20):
And so even with a tinypercentage of those users,
seeing potentially imaginethat they're testing a, a
green button as opposed toa blue button somewhere.
That, for a data person, isa massive amount of data.
When I was in graduate school,my biggest data set was about
2,000 data points, whereyeah, if you envision, you
know, a larger sample fromFacebook, which is still a
(13:42):
tiny percentage of their users,you're talking data points
in the hundreds of thousands.
And so that could be just avery different data challenge.
And again, for me, that,that took a little bit of
learning how to wrangle thesedatabases, where you actually
work with very large data sets.
Uh, and for me, I, I thinkI was in a group that really
(14:03):
had that intent to say, Howdo we build good products?
How do we do these things?
And so even though thesestories come out in the news
about folks with malintent,my experience there was
that there was an intent toactually say, How do we have
a better user experience here?
As opposed to, you know, wecan run a small test, check
something and then roll it out.
Or we could just roll it outto everyone and have folks say,
(14:24):
Oh my gosh, this is terrible.
And then change it.
Right.
And so it would actually befor everyone a much more tough
experience if there weren'tthese little percent tests.
The same way that if youwere maybe getting a, a new
treatment of a medicine andyou're the very first person
getting it, it's better if youknow it's been validated on
many folks first where there'ssort of a sense and, and it's
validated in small doses.
Jesse Butts (14:45):
You know, you mentioned earlier that you've
been involved in hiring,and, and you were at Facebook
for about three years.
While at Facebook or at Google,which, you, you mentioned
was your next employer.
Did you stay indata science roles?
Were you kind of moving upthe ladder to, to, pardon
the cliche or, you know, whatwas that progression like
(15:05):
in the tech space for you?
Tory Wobber (15:07):
Yeah.
So I'll speak to both ofthose and to the interviewing.
So, as an individual contributordata scientist at Facebook.
So what I mean thereis just someone who
is not in management,but just sort of a...
contributing as an individual.
I was part of, I think,close to a hundred different
interview panels to hire moredata scientists because the
data science organizationwas growing so rapidly.
(15:29):
And I, during my, my coupleof years there, I got promoted
to sort of a more senior... individual contributor role.
And then I moved to Googleand sort of kept that senior
individual contributor status.
I eventually, after seeinginto the eyes of Google and
finally understanding howit worked after, I think,
two and a half, three years,moved into a management
(15:51):
role, both got promotedagain, and then moved into
a, a people management role.
And I actually reallyenjoyed the people management
part of people management.
But there were parts ofit that I didn't realize
were part of the role.
And now actually, as a coach, Iget to do more of the parts of
that work that I enjoy, whichis growing people, supporting
folks, helping them see theirgoals and achieve those.
(16:13):
Where a lot of people managementturned out to be upward
and sideways management.
As opposed to managing yourteam, you're sort of managing
your team's positioning, amidstother teams, which was something
that I was less skilled at thandeveloping the people around me.
Jesse Butts (16:28):
What prompted your decision to, to leave tech
and to start Academic Exit?
I may I, and I supposemaybe I should ask, Was
there anything in betweentech and you doing academic
coaching and consulting?
Or did you leave with theexpress purpose of, of starting
this, this solo consultancyand coaching business?
Tory Wobber (16:50):
Yeah, I left to start this business.
And it's funny.
The, the lead time for thiswas actually very long because
when I left academics in2013, I would continually
get passed folks who wantedto leave academics, right?
Anyone who knew someonewho wanted to leave, they'd
say, Oh, Tory did that.
She can talk to you.
(17:10):
And so I took thoseconversations because I
wanted to pay it forward.
A number of folks hadhelped me make that leap.
And so I said to myself,Okay, I wanna help others
make this transition as well.
And I think somewhere around 35,36 of those, I said, You know,
I think I've paid it forward.
I think I've done it.
Like, I think I've,I've, hit my quota.
But I actually thenrealized I really enjoyed
(17:32):
those conversations.
When I looked at my day today work, they were the thing
that stood out, that made mefeel like I got some meaning.
Like I could providesome guidance.
And so when I recognizedthat I went and did a formal
coaching training, just to say,Hey, can I build skills here?
I've been doing this informally.
Could I actually makethis more of a practice?
(17:53):
I loved my coaching training.
And through that, I actuallyencountered other folks building
this as a business, which mademe believe it was possible.
And so I would say from themoment where I realized that
I really loved doing thosecoaching calls with PhDs,
to leaving Google to startmy business, was probably
about two years of juststeadily stepping towards it.
(18:15):
And in each step saying,Yeah, I like this.
I like this.
I like this.
And so the initial ideawas actually planted,
you know, many, manyyears before I did it.
And then I moved slowlyand checked at each step
that it was a good thing.
And for me it reallywas a good fit.
And I'm glad I made the move.
Jesse Butts (18:32):
So that coaching training, you completed that
while you were at Google?
Tory Wobber (18:36):
I did.
Yes.
Yes.
Mostly.
Jesse Butts (18:39):
So, so when you did start working on
your own, I mean, wereyou searching for clients?
Did you have somealready on board?
Can you talk a little bitabout that build up time
or, or to, you know, whenit became a full-time role
versus, just enough clientsto make it part-time?
Tory Wobber (18:58):
Yeah.
So I, I had a handful ofclients because the training
program I did, this is theCo-Active Training Institute.
They've trained somethinglike 60,000 coaches.
And so it really has agreat history of, of setting
folks up, , for coach craft.
They actually, duringthe program, have you
coach folks as homework.
And so you're actually reallyputting this into practice
(19:18):
and getting, you know, a realcoaching practice and then
potentially asking folks tobe clients even before you've
finished the training program.
And so that allowed me toreally get an experience of
what's it like to coach folks?
What's it like to do so inexchange for finances, right?
To actually do it, not justas a favor, as a friend,
but to say, Hey, there's aservice being provided here.
(19:41):
And so I had some experiencethere and I think for me, the,
the tipping point for me was,it was the beginning of 2020.
And this is funny timing,but we can that on it's
the beginning of 2020, andI was doing my new year's
resolutions and I was thinkingto myself, Hey, what are my
goals for Google this year?
Right?
Looking ahead at 2020, whatdo I wanna do at Google?
(20:02):
The only thing I couldcome up with was have
Google pay for my coaching.
And I thought, That's not avery good reason to stay, right?
Like, sounds like I've hita lot of my goals at Google.
And so I then started doingthe financial projections
for, Hey, what would this looklike to do this as full time?
What sort of growth time doI need to budget for, etc.?
And I gave my notice atGoogle in February 2020.
(20:24):
And then by March 2020, I,I remember writing an email
to HR being like, wait,can I revoke that notice?
Cause this whole COVID thing...
it was right in conjunctionwith things happening.
But I'm so glad I had thecourage to leave anyway.
I ended up staying inSan Francisco for a
month longer than I hadplanned because of COVID.
(20:44):
But then I, I moved toa lower cost location.
I now live in Mexico andstarted my business in May 2020.
And yeah, so glad I had thatcourage to do that, even amidst
COVID, but it was a littledicey there for a couple months.
Jesse Butts (20:58):
So when you did, you know, in May 2020 launch
this, were you specificallytargeting those social
science PhDs into tech?
Or did you kind of, as wesay, niche down after being
a little bit more broad?
Tory Wobber (21:11):
Yeah, I think the latter, because
I think it's almost...
it's taken me a while toacknowledge and realize
like that's where I havesomething to offer folks.
That other folks have thingsto offer, but just, there's
something unique there thatin terms of my experience, my
perspective, there's a givethere that I enjoy giving
and that there's a need for.
And so it's a good match.
But I almost think I had tocoach very broadly at the
(21:34):
beginning just to throw myselfinto situations where I wanna
coach someone who has thisproblem and that problem.
And who's in this stage oflife and this kind of job.
And I'm, I'm really thankfulthat I did because I think
early on, I think just gettingthe hours allowed me to be
more flexible as a coach.
Allowed me to see differentfolks in different
phases, facing differentstruggles and transitions.
(21:56):
And I can now bring thatsort of dovetailing back to
PhDs, where if I had focusedon PhDs in the beginning, I
wouldn't have had that breath.
And so I'm happy I did thebreadth and I'm now also
happy that I'm focusing in.
Jesse Butts (22:11):
You mentioned, as you were looking at your career,
how those conversations were oneof the things you enjoyed most.
Is that still what you enjoymost about your work now?
Are there other things thatyou've found, maybe a little
surprisingly even, that youreally enjoy about your work?
Tory Wobber (22:30):
Yeah.
You know, with this one,I think this is the career
move I've made that wasthe best researched both in
terms of knowing myself andknowing the opportunity.
Right?
So whenever you make acareer move, you're sort
of saying, Here's whatI think I would like.
Here's what Ithink this will be.
I'm gonna roll the dice andthink that these are a good fit.
And for this one, I thinkI, I know myself better.
(22:53):
And I knew theopportunity decently well.
And so it was a great fit.
And so there's things thatI anticipated were gonna be
wonderful, are wonderful.
I do meaningful work.
I get to connect with peoplein a really meaningful way.
I have freedom, all this sort ofindependence and autonomy that
is hard to get when you're partof a big corporate environment.
With that freedomcomes responsibility.
(23:15):
I'm responsible forgenerating my paycheck.
I have to hustle and workhard and there's no one else
to fill in if I have a sickday or my dog has a sick day.
And so not to say thatthey're all advantages, there
are some considerations.
But they're ones that Iknew and that I chose.
And that even now two years in,as I sort of do my check-ins
with myself every six monthsand say, Hey, how is this
(23:38):
squaring with what I want?
The amount that this fitswith what I had expected and
that I can choose these prosand cons willingly, leaves
me feeling pretty fulfilled.
Jesse Butts (23:48):
Beyond the data, the research methodologies,
some of these things thatwe've already talked about
with your PhD skills, isthere a relationship with any
other skills that you honed inacademia that you think have
really helped you in this?
Maybe not just in your currentwork, but when you were at
(24:09):
Meta and, and Google as well?
Tory Wobber (24:11):
Yeah, I would say in my current work, and
when I was really hittingmy element at Meta and
Google, my ability to test.
To take an experimental mindset.
As an entrepreneur,this is huge, right?
Because so much ofentrepreneurship is you
test something, you seeif it works, you iterate.
You test something, yousee if it works, iterate.
And for me, that's reallyjust the scientific method.
(24:33):
Right?
I have a hypothesis.
I gather some data.
I update the hypothesis,I gather some more data.
And so it feels likemy scientific training
benefits me there.
And when I was doingmy best work at those
companies, I was helpingthem run smart experiments.
Run experiments where the datawas actually gonna inform a
decision, or we could actuallystructure the experiment
in a way that it was gonnagather good data and not just
(24:56):
confirm some execs belief.
Right?
So structuring goodexperiments and knowing
how to interpret that data.
I did that in graduate school.
I did that in the techindustry, and I do that
now, albeit in differentways with different goals.
That methodology, I think,is the thing that carries
through all of them.
Jesse Butts (25:14):
So as you've looked back, what do you think you
had to learn about yourselfto find work that fit you?
I, I mean, and I'mparticularly interested in
this, because you've had twocareers post the, the PhD?
Tory Wobber (25:28):
I'm now on my third career, right?
My third chapter.
I'm finally startingto get it right.
I'm finally starting totune some of the things
in line with what I want.
So I think it really is aboutknowing yourself, knowing the
opportunity and accuratelygauging the fit between the two.
Really honestly, the otherthing I think I'm realizing is
to listen to my gut, but letmy head, with the standards
(25:52):
have some minimum viablestandards and have those be met.
But not have my headmake the decision.
So for example, too often,I see folks wanna make a,
a job choice off of, Thispays me the highest salary.
This looks good on a resume.
Those are sort of head choices.
Where a gut choiceis, This is enjoyable.
This is fulfilling.
(26:13):
I find meaning here.
I wanna do it, and Idon't really know why.
I now opt towards my gutmaking the choices and
my head supporting it.
Almost like my head playingcatch up, being like, Well, how
do we finance this crazy thingthat she's come up with, right?
And so that's not to sayI ignore that head voice,
because everyone needsto have some level of
stability and standards.
(26:34):
But the more I've learned tolisten to my gut and trust
it, as opposed to take whatother folks say is a good
idea, or what other folksvalue, or what I think I
should do as my guidance thatclarity and willingness to
listen to my own gut voice hasallowed me to find work that
is really fulfilling for me.
Jesse Butts (26:54):
From your perspective, how
important is job fit?
Or, or said differently, Doyou need to love your work?
Tory Wobber (27:02):
I think for me, it's critical because that
would be pretty hypocritical tocoach folks on work fulfillment
and not be fulfilled myself.
Right?
Like, this is really importantfor you, but I don't need it.
Like, no.
And so me ,being an example,living what I'm, I'm advocating
for folks, which it is possibleto find work that gives you
(27:24):
meaning and enjoyment and paysthe bills at the same time.
By really crafting thatmyself, I believe I create
space for other folksto see that's possible.
And so for me, inparticular, that's important.
And I think there arephases of life where we may
have to turn off meaning.
Right?
Where something, some financialconsideration, some other
(27:45):
thing might force us to takea work situation that is
not fulfilling for a time.
But that eventually, thatmight eat into your soul.
And so the more you cancontinue to have an eye towards,
Where is my fulfillment?
Am I consciously makingchoices to optimize towards it?
Am I deprioritizing it?
And if so, for how long?
(28:07):
I think being deliberate andintentional about those choices.
I've then seen folks chooseto downplay the role of
work in their life, butdo so intentionally.
And that's very different fromalmost running on inertia or
running on a sense of here'swhat everyone else is doing.
So I'm gonna do the same thing.
Jesse Butts (28:26):
One thing I'm curious about is the
concept of fulfillment.
Does fulfillment to youmean, at the end of, of work,
like, Oh, that was nice.
I feel like I did some good.
Or is it, That was amazing.
I just wanna keep doing this.
Like, I know that each of ushas our own personal definition.
I'm just kind of curiouswhen people might press
(28:48):
you for, Well, what exactlydoes, does that mean?
How do you typically guide them?
Tory Wobber (28:53):
Here's how fulfillment looks for me.
And again, this does look alittle bit different for each
person who I work with on this.
For me, there are two levels.
One is sort of the head leveland one is more the heart level.
The head level allows meto say, Hey, I'm living
in line with my values.
Right?
These things that I havesaid are important to me.
Freedom, authenticity,integrity.
(29:16):
I get to live in linewith those most days.
That's pretty awesome.
And my head is also prettyhappy these days that I
don't have to do very muchwork that I don't like.
Right?
Like when I was in my pastroles, it was always this
balance of, Well, if I like halfof it and I don't like half of
it, I guess I can balance that.
I now probably the, thepercentage of things I do that
I don't enjoy is under 5%.
(29:37):
Right?
That's really lucky.
I realize how fortunate that is.
So that's sort ofthe head feeling.
The gut feeling is, Yeah,just that sense of, I come
out of conversation withfolks feeling more alive,
feeling energized, and I'velearned to sort of monitor
my own levels of aliveness.
And in coaching, we have thisterm called resonance, right?
(29:59):
Just that sense that someone'soscillating on the frequency
that they're in tune with.
And so that feelingis there for me.
And the head markers are met.
And so with both of those,I can say I'm feeling
fulfilled and content.
That doesn't mean thatevery day is a party and
amazing and whoa, I did thebiggest thing in the world.
But that sort of, overthe longer term, yeah,
(30:20):
I really don't have toomany days where I say to
myself, Why am I doing this?
I don't like this.
I shouldn't be doing this.
And so, yeah, I, I can'tthink, I mean, I maybe have
one of those days, everysix months, where I doubt
and say, is this right?
I don't know, but it's apretty good, pretty good
rate to be satisfied withwhat I'm doing to that level.
(30:40):
At least for me.
Jesse Butts (30:42):
What's your relationship to work?
Like how large of a roledoes it play in your life?
Tory Wobber (30:47):
Yeah, I think work is one of my sources of meaning.
Right?
I, I really feelmeaning in what I do.
That opportunity, especiallyfor PhDs to move into tech,
that's often an order ofmagnitude change in salary.
They get to have thisbrand new life and set of
opportunities open for them.
And so when I help folksmake that leap, that really
(31:09):
makes me happy to have madethat a little bit easier
and more pain free for them.
But I now have also gottento the point where work is
not me, if that makes sense.
So I do meaningful work,but I am not that work.
And so one of the greatthings about living in Mexico
actually is that I work ina place where no one around
(31:31):
me is part of my work.
All of my work is througha screen or a phone.
I don't do any of it locally.
And so when I turn thosethings off, I am here.
I am living in this place.
I'm exploring being partof a different culture, and
learning Spanish, and tryingfoods I'd never imagined.
And so there's a senseof really enjoying the
life part of my life.
(31:51):
While also enjoying the workand having a pretty good
boundary and distance betweenthe two almost because my work
is not physically co-located.
You know, I have this littleoffice space here in my house.
And other than that, Iam in a place where it's
easy to put work down.
Jesse Butts (32:07):
I've noticed with guests who have PhDs,
they're, more than mymaster's guests, they tend
to struggle with identity.
Like you were bringing up.
Like, I put all thiswork and I just...
I am a professor.
Or I am an academician.
Or you know, I'm a smart person.
I have to work where thesmart people work, which is,
you know, at the university.
(32:29):
It sounds like that.
And you know, I, if I'mwrong, please correct me,
but it sounds like you, youdidn't have at least a large
struggle in, in those regards?
Tory Wobber (32:40):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna push back because
you're talking to me in 2022.
If you had talked tome in 2013, oh my gosh.
That's where the sostruggle was, right?
That year that I spentdeciding it was okay to leave.
That was grieving the lossof my academic identity.
Grieving that dream of beingthe professor who has the
(33:02):
books lining the shelves.
And, you know, I'll tellyou what, I didn't actually
get rid of those booksuntil I moved to Mexico.
So a little fiber of thatdream lasted for years
of, No, I'm gonna be thatprofessor who has the books
on the shelves, who has thestudents come in and they
see this really smart person.
Very much a dream.
And so coping with the loss ofthat identity and then building
(33:22):
up an identity of who I wasin tech took a ton of work.
And so you're talking to menow, having done that work,
having done that personalwork to say, Am I what I do?
And I think having hada few careers, I can
say, No, I do what I do.
I get meaning from what I do.
But it is not my identity.
(33:43):
It is a part of my identity.
The metaphor I sometimes liketo use here, and it's a little
bit of a weird one, but I'llpull it out, I assume you've
read or seen Harry Potter?
Jesse Butts (33:53):
I read the first book.
Tory Wobber (33:55):
Okay, so you've...
Oh, you read onlythe first book.
Okay.
Then this metaphor may not land.
I'll.
I'll see what elseI can describe it.
The, the bad guy in HarryPotter, Voldemort, he has
his system where he divideshis soul in parts so that
it makes him harder to kill.
And so he places his soulin different objects.
Sorry, spoiler alert.
They're called horcruxes.
And when that happens, if youdestroy one, he still exists.
(34:16):
And so not to say that weshould all follow Voldemort.
But the redundancythere, the, Hey, my soul,
isn't all in one place.
And so if any one areais out of whack, my whole
world doesn't fall apart.
And too often folks put95% of their soul in work.
And so if work isn't goingwell, everything falls apart.
(34:37):
Where now, if I say, Nah, Ihave 40% of myself in work and
40% of myself in life and 20%tied up in this little dog.
If any one of those isactually out of whack.
If my dog is in thehospital, it is hard.
It is tough.
But it doesn't mean mywhole world is falling down.
If I have a hard month interms of, Ooh, I didn't really
get any clients this month.
I didn't really buildthat much business.
(34:59):
Yeah, that's tough.
I've gotta have somesolutions, but my whole
world doesn't fall apart.
It doesn't mean thatI'm not good enough.
Jesse Butts (35:06):
What was that work when you were referring
to you did the work...
I mean, if that's a verypersonal question, but I'm
curious, like for people whoare listening, who, who are
experiencing that, or arenervous about that, like,
what did you do to, to helpyourself overcome that?
Tory Wobber (35:22):
Yeah.
I mean, here's what I'll put.
Too often with that workthat gets us to the place
of feeling comfortable withourselves, confident in our
authentic selves, grounded.
That is internal work thatwe try to do externally.
We hope that a job will fix it.
We hope that apartner will fix it.
We hope that a locationchange will fix it.
And unfortunately, it's workthat has to be done internally.
(35:45):
And so working with aprofessional, like a therapist,
I've worked with a coupleof therapists with a coach.
I've worked with acouple of coaches.
One of the great thingsabout coaching training is
you actually get coachedas well as coaching.
And so it's a greatpersonal growth experience.
Right?
Doing that internal work toget to know one's self to be
more mindful, more self-aware.
(36:07):
I even now am deepening thisthrough doing yoga, right.
To actually be more physicallyaware of my body, cuz I
have a decent awareness ofmy mind and my emotions,
but what about my muscles?
Like how are they doingon a day to day basis?
And so being committed toknowing one's self, people
are sometimes scared of it.
And so they wanna make theexternal changes and assume
that that's gonna change things.
(36:28):
But if you have the courage todo the internal work, that's
where you're gonna see the mostmileage in my experience on
finding that confidence, thatauthenticity, that groundedness.
And it's possible to do alone.
You can do some reading.
You can do some journaling.
But often having resourcesfor folks who can be guides
in that growth can help youhave a structure to navigate
(36:50):
that more effectively.
That's what I've found.
Jesse Butts (36:53):
It's a pretty good segue into, to what
I was gonna ask you about.
Resources?
Obviously, you are a greatresource, especially if someone
has a social science PhD.
Any other resources thatyou recommend for people?
Tory Wobber (37:05):
Yeah.
Well, and so my favoriteone and, and some folks
push back on this, and so Ihave alternatives are info
gathering conversations,informational interviews.
Right?
And so if you have friendswho seem happy in their work,
asking if you can have 30,45 minutes of their time to
just say, What do you do?
What do you do during your day?
What does that mean?
What does that translate to?
(37:26):
What do you like?
What don't you like?
Because too oftenacademics only have data
on academics as a path.
They're not comparingthat against alternatives.
Where my goal would be thatfolks choose academia in an
informed choice, saying, Iknow I can do this, or I can
do this, this, this right.
A, B, or C.
I choose to go with A.
(37:48):
And so talking to folks abouttheir jobs gives you a sense
of external opportunitiesas well as then you can
gauge your own clique.
Huh?
Do I think I would like that?
What would I like about that?
What would I hate about that?
So you get more externaland internal information
by being open to exploring.
If you don't feel comfortablewith one on one conversations,
(38:08):
I'm now hosting these panels,which I think are a really
easy way to get started.
Right?
So you can listen to metalk to folks about their
jobs, like what you're doingwith this podcast, right?
You basically hear otherpeople's perspectives.
And even that can start to openthe door to what's possible.
And so podcasts, panels, youknow, for folks interested
(38:30):
in UX, I think there's likea UX coffee chats one, right?
Like really just listening andallowing that to open doors.
That is probably yourfirst resource, right?
Books, panels, podcasts.
After that, I wouldsay conversations.
And then when you're actuallyready to make the move and you
wanna know how then engagingfolks like myself, or there're
(38:50):
actually a number of othergreat career coaches on Twitter.
O ther PhD coaches who havedifferent focal points.
And so engaging, one ofus can actually help you
navigate those end stages.
But very early on, allowingyourself to explore is probably
the biggest tool or resource.
Jesse Butts (39:07):
How can people contact you?
Where can people find you?
Tory Wobber (39:10):
Yeah.
So the best place to findmy PhD resources is under
this site called Gumroad,where I've basically put
all my Academic Exit stuff.
So there's my playbook.
There's various blog posts.
And so if you look forTory Wobber Gumroad,
you'll find my stuff there.
And that's G U M R O A D.
(39:30):
You can look at my website aswell, but that's more generally
focused since I have otherclients aside from PhD folks.
I will also say if you're reallyjust early stages exploring,
following me on Twitter.
I have the AcademicExit Twitter account.
That allows folks justto get a sense of what's
possible very early stage.
And then if you're saying,No, I'm actually doing this, I
(39:50):
need some sort of guidance toget through to the end stages,
that's where my Academic Exitpackage and resources that
are available on Gumroad mightbe best suited for folks.
Jesse Butts (40:01):
And I'll be sure to include links to
all of those in the shownotes for, for everyone.
All right.
Well, Tory, this has beena wonderful conversation.
Thanks so much fortaking the time.
Tory Wobber (40:09):
Thanks so much, Jesse.
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting withTory Wobber, a PhD in
human evolutionary biologyfrom Harvard turned career
and leadership coach.
Tory is the founder ofAcademic Exit where she
helps social science PhDssucceed in the tech industry.
(00:43):
After she worked fortech leaders, such
as Google and Meta.
Tory, welcome to the show.
Delighted to have you on.
Tory Wobber (00:50):
Thanks so much for having me here, Jesse.
It's really great to join.
Jesse Butts (00:54):
Before we dive into how you found your way
from something as seeminglydisparate as human evolutionary
biology to career coachingfor social science folks, can
you tell us a little bit aboutwhat your work today involves?
Like how are you helpingthese social science PhDs
transition into careers in tech?
Tory Wobber (01:16):
Yeah, thanks for asking, Jesse.
It's.
It's funny.
I work with folks who havehad enough of academia
and who are ready tomove into something new.
I work with folks around techin particular, just because
that's where I worked, andso I can speak to the sort of
domain of how to land a rolethere with experience having
served on hiring committees.
(01:37):
I think while I was atFacebook, I, I hired, you
know, a hundred people, notas a hiring manager, but I
was on the interview loops.
So I saw a lot of processes.
And so I had that chance toactually have the expertise of
the academic world and the techworld and help make connections.
For folks who've decidedthat they're done with
the academic hoopla.
Jesse Butts (01:56):
Are your typical clients, you know,
have they been either intenure track or kind of
adjunct hell for a while?
Or are they, just wrapping uptheir PhDs and thinking that,
The career I thought I wanted inacademia is not sounding quite
as appealing as it did, youknow, in my first couple years?
Like where do they fall onthat kind of a spectrum?
Tory Wobber (02:18):
Yeah, I would say I probably get three clusters.
One are actually folks who arein maybe their third or fourth
year of their PhD and who arealready saying, Hey, something
about this isn't for me.
Can I get an internship tosee what else is out there?
So they're very early onsaying, I might not wanna
continue this path and explore.
(02:39):
Another are folks who areABD, finishing their PhD
post doc, who are maybeon the faculty job market.
They've maybe doneit a season or two.
And they're saying, Nono, no, no, no, no, no.
Wait a minute.
No.
And so they're looking forsomething else at that point.
And then I'm now getting athird cluster who are tenure
track or tenured facultymembers who are saying, This no
(03:02):
longer meets what I expected.
And so those are folks who...
I actually run into as manytenured folks as I do adjunct
or other situations whoare saying, You know what?
The growth here has stopped.
I can't move and mypartner needs to move.
And so they're recognizingthe limitation of those
positions and moving on.
Jesse Butts (03:21):
So I'm curious, you know, going back to your story,
Tory, what were you thinking ornot, not in a, I don't mean that
any like, accusatory way, butlike what was going on in, in
your head when you were thinkingabout going to grad school?
What made you want togo beyond undergrad?
Tory Wobber (03:40):
Yeah.
What were you thinking?
No, it's, well, it's funny.
I, I was thinking all aboutthis and remembering one
specific conversation.
I was sitting in the officeof a grad student who I
was a research assistantfor as an undergrad.
Hearing him and another graduatestudent talk about grad school.
And they used the termIntellectual Masturbation.
(04:02):
I don't know if that's toorisque for, for your podcast,
but I heard that and Isaid, Wow, that sounds fun.
Intellectual masturbation.
I could do that.
And so it was a very easypath to go to grad school.
But I don't think at the end ofundergrad that I ever did any
pause, assessment of the optionsand then choice of grad school.
(04:23):
It was more a continuationof really loving
research as an undergrad.
And it was only, you know, six,seven years later when I was
on the faculty job market thatI paused and said, Hang on.
Is this actually meetingmy values and standards?
So I really followed mygut, which led me to a great
experience with my PhD.
But then after that, the, thepath was not as rosy, and I
(04:45):
then was sort of forced to dothat assessment of, Hey, what
does this job actually mean?
Jesse Butts (04:51):
And you said that point of assessment was in
your sixth or seventh year.
So, so before that, wereyou feeling pretty confident
in either working in alab for a while or, or
a tenure track position?
Like what were you thinkingbefore that point of assessment?
Tory Wobber (05:08):
Yeah.
I very much pictured myselfin a faculty position.
And I, I hesitate to saythis because many folks
will get angry, but Ienjoyed doing my PhD.
Many folks struggle with thePhD and have frustrations.
I actually liked the PhD part.
But as I got to the end, soI did my PhD in six years, I
applied for faculty positionsduring my final year of PhD.
(05:29):
And then during oneyear of postdoc.
And it was only thenwhen I started going to
these departments andtalking to folks, I was
saying, What is this?
What have, what have Idone all this work for?
I thought that this would beabout continued intellectual
masturbation and fun andgetting to do research.
But I, I think I recognizethe hard reality of needing
(05:50):
to position your work, needingto get funding, needing
to have these other folksinterested in your work in
ways that no longer retainedthat purity that I had loved.
And so it was a rudeawakening after two
seasons on the job market.
And I think onlythen was I forced to
consider other options.
But I had absolutelyconsidered myself going on
(06:13):
in taking a faculty role.
Jesse Butts (06:14):
And were those two seasons of looking for a
tenure track position afteryou had graduated ?Or was
like one or two of them orone or both of them, I should
say, were they, while youwere wrapping up your PhD?
Tory Wobber (06:26):
I did one when I was ABD and one the year
after I completed with my PhD.
And I had pretty good successat getting interviews.
I had six interview loops,which at least in my field
was pretty good becausemy CV was really strong.
But I didn't have any offers.
And the last place thatdidn't give me an offer
was my home department, thedepartment where I did my PhD.
(06:50):
And I remember I had decidedbefore that last year, that
second year, Okay, if nothingworks out this year, I'm
gonna look for industry roles.
And so my home departmentin, you know, March of 2013
had said, No, we don't wantto extend you an offer.
And by July I had an offer andjumped over to work at Facebook.
Jesse Butts (07:08):
Can you walk us through a little bit about
that pre-Facebook offer.
Like how did, how didyou get to that point?
Were you looking in tech?
Was it fascinating to you?
Were you, sending yourresume anywhere that
looked remotely compatible?
Like, what wasthat process like?
Tory Wobber (07:23):
Yeah, well, and I'll, I'll
speak to my stages here.
And I've seen now many folksgo through these same stages.
I think I've coached morethan 50, almost 60 folks
through this transition.
And so I can say there are sortof phases that folks go through.
The first one was justallowing myself to look.
Right?
The permission to say, Iwanna do something other
than academics, was reallyscary, intimidating, and,
(07:46):
and sometimes sad for me.
So that first stage, andactually that year of that last
year on the job market was justsaying, Okay, this is the point
when I'm ready to, to move on.
I then explored really broadly.
So I did a lot of informationalinterviews where I spoke
with folks about their jobs.
And I probably did about 40to 50 of those because I had
(08:07):
no idea what I wanted to do.
Yeah.
I was talking to anyone.
Like, guys I had had crushon in college, a friend's
mom, like someone whowould meet at Starbucks.
Right.
Like really just tryingto chat with folks
about, What do you do?
Because I had no idea.
And I landed on data sciencebecause it felt like a good
(08:27):
way to leverage things thatI enjoyed about my PhD.
Sort of this data drivenhypothesis testing, controlled
experimentation, whichthey called AB testing.
I started learning SQLand I enjoyed that.
And so it felt like anopportunity to take my
skills and put them ina fast growing field.
And so only after maybe acouple of months of exploration,
(08:49):
did I hone in on data scienceand then really optimize
my resume towards that andtry to find a position.
And so I got my position atFacebook through a referral.
I think of a friend of afriend of a friend worked
there and was willing topass through my resume.
And then I was able tofinagle my way through the
interview to land the role.
Jesse Butts (09:09):
And just for, for clarity SQL, that's
a, a database, right?
A database language.
Tory Wobber (09:15):
Yes.
Jesse Butts (09:15):
Got it.
So what, what were you doingin, in this data science role?
Like what were those first fewyears of Facebook like for you?
Tory Wobber (09:24):
Yeah, filled with culture shocks.
And I think I I'm extremelyfortunate because, a fellow
PhD who had worked withthe same career advisor at
Harvard, who I had was there.
And she connected us.
And so he was a great resourcefor me, as well as some managers
who had managed PhDs and couldsort of give it to me straight.
(09:47):
And so they were able to help menavigate some of the challenges.
But wow, was it different.
Right?
It really is just a completelydifferent way of work between
academics and data science.
Now that doesn't mean thatmy experience didn't matter.
I had knowledge ofstatistics, probability,
how to frame a quantitativequestion that aren't that
(10:09):
present in that area.
And so my skillswere really valuable.
But the amount of otherlearning I had to do to
sort of understand howdoes work get done here?
And how do I take myskills and apply them?
That took a long time.
And I would say Facebook, itprobably took me about a year
and a half to figure out how toactually get things done well.
(10:30):
And then when I moved overto Google, I probably only
figured that place outafter about three years.
I think after three years, Iwas really hitting my stride.
And I say those things just toreally normalize that, Okay,
within the first three to sixmonths, you have a sense, but
there's continued learningin terms of how do I execute
well in this environment.
That happens for years on end.
Jesse Butts (10:52):
So, so I'm a little curious, you know, for people
who might have the researchbackground, social sciences,
like applying what they'velearned at Facebook, like what
were you helping Facebook do?
I mean, like what, what problemswas your data analysis and,
you know, your methodologyhelping to solve for them?
Tory Wobber (11:09):
Yeah, well, I'll give you my quirky answer
and then my genuine answer.
My quirky answer was thatmy PhD was with chimpanzees.
And so I'd say, Hey, youknow, chimpanzee behavior,
behavior of folks onFacebook, not too different.
Like, that's sort ofthe quirky answer.
If we wanna, you know, poke funat ourselves on social media.
So in, in reality, what Facebookdoes with data ultimately is
(11:32):
try to make the product better.
Right?
And you can dispute, you cansee the, the sort of stories
in the news about how theyuse data or misuse data.
But at least during my timethere, the experience I
had was, Let's understandhow to make this product
more usable for folks.
So for example, one of theexperiments I worked on when
I was first there was aroundhow folks used a specific
(11:55):
aspect of the product.
And we did an AB test.
So we basically had thecontrol, which was the
current version of theproduct, tested against a new
developer, you know, version.
And we compared the two witha sort of random sub sample
of folks to then see, Okay,which one is actually creating
(12:16):
the user outcomes that wewanna see, which we believe
are good user outcomes.
And from those results, wewere able to say, Hey, this
new variant actually seems tobe creating better outcomes.
So let's replace the formervariant with this one.
And so that sense of usingcontrolled experiments, which
I had done, you know, countlessnumbers of as a grad student,
(12:37):
but then to say, How do wemake this product better?
It was a new domain area,but the methods and the
hypothesis testing werevery familiar to me.
Jesse Butts (12:46):
And it, it's my understanding they're
running hundreds if notthousands of these tests.
And so I imagine it's justan incredible amount of
information to keep track of.
Tory Wobber (12:57):
Yeah.
And it's interesting becauseas a data person, you know,
and I'll speak to Facebookat the time I worked there.
And I'm referring to it Facebookjust because between 2013 to
2015 that's what it was called.
It's now Meta.
You know, the, the datathere, even with a tiny, tiny
percentage of users, right.
I think Facebook has close to2 billion users at this point.
(13:20):
And so even with a tinypercentage of those users,
seeing potentially imaginethat they're testing a, a
green button as opposed toa blue button somewhere.
That, for a data person, isa massive amount of data.
When I was in graduate school,my biggest data set was about
2,000 data points, whereyeah, if you envision, you
know, a larger sample fromFacebook, which is still a
(13:42):
tiny percentage of their users,you're talking data points
in the hundreds of thousands.
And so that could be just avery different data challenge.
And again, for me, that,that took a little bit of
learning how to wrangle thesedatabases, where you actually
work with very large data sets.
Uh, and for me, I, I thinkI was in a group that really
(14:03):
had that intent to say, Howdo we build good products?
How do we do these things?
And so even though thesestories come out in the news
about folks with malintent,my experience there was
that there was an intent toactually say, How do we have
a better user experience here?
As opposed to, you know, wecan run a small test, check
something and then roll it out.
Or we could just roll it outto everyone and have folks say,
(14:24):
Oh my gosh, this is terrible.
And then change it.
Right.
And so it would actually befor everyone a much more tough
experience if there weren'tthese little percent tests.
The same way that if youwere maybe getting a, a new
treatment of a medicine andyou're the very first person
getting it, it's better if youknow it's been validated on
many folks first where there'ssort of a sense and, and it's
validated in small doses.
Jesse Butts (14:45):
You know, you mentioned earlier that you've
been involved in hiring,and, and you were at Facebook
for about three years.
While at Facebook or at Google,which, you, you mentioned
was your next employer.
Did you stay indata science roles?
Were you kind of moving upthe ladder to, to, pardon
the cliche or, you know, whatwas that progression like
(15:05):
in the tech space for you?
Tory Wobber (15:07):
Yeah.
So I'll speak to both ofthose and to the interviewing.
So, as an individual contributordata scientist at Facebook.
So what I mean thereis just someone who
is not in management,but just sort of a...
contributing as an individual.
I was part of, I think,close to a hundred different
interview panels to hire moredata scientists because the
data science organizationwas growing so rapidly.
(15:29):
And I, during my, my coupleof years there, I got promoted
to sort of a more senior... individual contributor role.
And then I moved to Googleand sort of kept that senior
individual contributor status.
I eventually, after seeinginto the eyes of Google and
finally understanding howit worked after, I think,
two and a half, three years,moved into a management
(15:51):
role, both got promotedagain, and then moved into
a, a people management role.
And I actually reallyenjoyed the people management
part of people management.
But there were parts ofit that I didn't realize
were part of the role.
And now actually, as a coach, Iget to do more of the parts of
that work that I enjoy, whichis growing people, supporting
folks, helping them see theirgoals and achieve those.
(16:13):
Where a lot of people managementturned out to be upward
and sideways management.
As opposed to managing yourteam, you're sort of managing
your team's positioning, amidstother teams, which was something
that I was less skilled at thandeveloping the people around me.
Jesse Butts (16:28):
What prompted your decision to, to leave tech
and to start Academic Exit?
I may I, and I supposemaybe I should ask, Was
there anything in betweentech and you doing academic
coaching and consulting?
Or did you leave with theexpress purpose of, of starting
this, this solo consultancyand coaching business?
Tory Wobber (16:50):
Yeah, I left to start this business.
And it's funny.
The, the lead time for thiswas actually very long because
when I left academics in2013, I would continually
get passed folks who wantedto leave academics, right?
Anyone who knew someonewho wanted to leave, they'd
say, Oh, Tory did that.
She can talk to you.
(17:10):
And so I took thoseconversations because I
wanted to pay it forward.
A number of folks hadhelped me make that leap.
And so I said to myself,Okay, I wanna help others
make this transition as well.
And I think somewhere around 35,36 of those, I said, You know,
I think I've paid it forward.
I think I've done it.
Like, I think I've,I've, hit my quota.
But I actually thenrealized I really enjoyed
(17:32):
those conversations.
When I looked at my day today work, they were the thing
that stood out, that made mefeel like I got some meaning.
Like I could providesome guidance.
And so when I recognizedthat I went and did a formal
coaching training, just to say,Hey, can I build skills here?
I've been doing this informally.
Could I actually makethis more of a practice?
(17:53):
I loved my coaching training.
And through that, I actuallyencountered other folks building
this as a business, which mademe believe it was possible.
And so I would say from themoment where I realized that
I really loved doing thosecoaching calls with PhDs,
to leaving Google to startmy business, was probably
about two years of juststeadily stepping towards it.
(18:15):
And in each step saying,Yeah, I like this.
I like this.
I like this.
And so the initial ideawas actually planted,
you know, many, manyyears before I did it.
And then I moved slowlyand checked at each step
that it was a good thing.
And for me it reallywas a good fit.
And I'm glad I made the move.
Jesse Butts (18:32):
So that coaching training, you completed that
while you were at Google?
Tory Wobber (18:36):
I did.
Yes.
Yes.
Mostly.
Jesse Butts (18:39):
So, so when you did start working on
your own, I mean, wereyou searching for clients?
Did you have somealready on board?
Can you talk a little bitabout that build up time
or, or to, you know, whenit became a full-time role
versus, just enough clientsto make it part-time?
Tory Wobber (18:58):
Yeah.
So I, I had a handful ofclients because the training
program I did, this is theCo-Active Training Institute.
They've trained somethinglike 60,000 coaches.
And so it really has agreat history of, of setting
folks up, , for coach craft.
They actually, duringthe program, have you
coach folks as homework.
And so you're actually reallyputting this into practice
(19:18):
and getting, you know, a realcoaching practice and then
potentially asking folks tobe clients even before you've
finished the training program.
And so that allowed me toreally get an experience of
what's it like to coach folks?
What's it like to do so inexchange for finances, right?
To actually do it, not justas a favor, as a friend,
but to say, Hey, there's aservice being provided here.
(19:41):
And so I had some experiencethere and I think for me, the,
the tipping point for me was,it was the beginning of 2020.
And this is funny timing,but we can that on it's
the beginning of 2020, andI was doing my new year's
resolutions and I was thinkingto myself, Hey, what are my
goals for Google this year?
Right?
Looking ahead at 2020, whatdo I wanna do at Google?
(20:02):
The only thing I couldcome up with was have
Google pay for my coaching.
And I thought, That's not avery good reason to stay, right?
Like, sounds like I've hita lot of my goals at Google.
And so I then started doingthe financial projections
for, Hey, what would this looklike to do this as full time?
What sort of growth time doI need to budget for, etc.?
And I gave my notice atGoogle in February 2020.
(20:24):
And then by March 2020, I,I remember writing an email
to HR being like, wait,can I revoke that notice?
Cause this whole COVID thing...
it was right in conjunctionwith things happening.
But I'm so glad I had thecourage to leave anyway.
I ended up staying inSan Francisco for a
month longer than I hadplanned because of COVID.
(20:44):
But then I, I moved toa lower cost location.
I now live in Mexico andstarted my business in May 2020.
And yeah, so glad I had thatcourage to do that, even amidst
COVID, but it was a littledicey there for a couple months.
Jesse Butts (20:58):
So when you did, you know, in May 2020 launch
this, were you specificallytargeting those social
science PhDs into tech?
Or did you kind of, as wesay, niche down after being
a little bit more broad?
Tory Wobber (21:11):
Yeah, I think the latter, because
I think it's almost...
it's taken me a while toacknowledge and realize
like that's where I havesomething to offer folks.
That other folks have thingsto offer, but just, there's
something unique there thatin terms of my experience, my
perspective, there's a givethere that I enjoy giving
and that there's a need for.
And so it's a good match.
But I almost think I had tocoach very broadly at the
(21:34):
beginning just to throw myselfinto situations where I wanna
coach someone who has thisproblem and that problem.
And who's in this stage oflife and this kind of job.
And I'm, I'm really thankfulthat I did because I think
early on, I think just gettingthe hours allowed me to be
more flexible as a coach.
Allowed me to see differentfolks in different
phases, facing differentstruggles and transitions.
(21:56):
And I can now bring thatsort of dovetailing back to
PhDs, where if I had focusedon PhDs in the beginning, I
wouldn't have had that breath.
And so I'm happy I did thebreadth and I'm now also
happy that I'm focusing in.
Jesse Butts (22:11):
You mentioned, as you were looking at your career,
how those conversations were oneof the things you enjoyed most.
Is that still what you enjoymost about your work now?
Are there other things thatyou've found, maybe a little
surprisingly even, that youreally enjoy about your work?
Tory Wobber (22:30):
Yeah.
You know, with this one,I think this is the career
move I've made that wasthe best researched both in
terms of knowing myself andknowing the opportunity.
Right?
So whenever you make acareer move, you're sort
of saying, Here's whatI think I would like.
Here's what Ithink this will be.
I'm gonna roll the dice andthink that these are a good fit.
And for this one, I thinkI, I know myself better.
(22:53):
And I knew theopportunity decently well.
And so it was a great fit.
And so there's things thatI anticipated were gonna be
wonderful, are wonderful.
I do meaningful work.
I get to connect with peoplein a really meaningful way.
I have freedom, all this sort ofindependence and autonomy that
is hard to get when you're partof a big corporate environment.
With that freedomcomes responsibility.
(23:15):
I'm responsible forgenerating my paycheck.
I have to hustle and workhard and there's no one else
to fill in if I have a sickday or my dog has a sick day.
And so not to say thatthey're all advantages, there
are some considerations.
But they're ones that Iknew and that I chose.
And that even now two years in,as I sort of do my check-ins
with myself every six monthsand say, Hey, how is this
(23:38):
squaring with what I want?
The amount that this fitswith what I had expected and
that I can choose these prosand cons willingly, leaves
me feeling pretty fulfilled.
Jesse Butts (23:48):
Beyond the data, the research methodologies,
some of these things thatwe've already talked about
with your PhD skills, isthere a relationship with any
other skills that you honed inacademia that you think have
really helped you in this?
Maybe not just in your currentwork, but when you were at
(24:09):
Meta and, and Google as well?
Tory Wobber (24:11):
Yeah, I would say in my current work, and
when I was really hittingmy element at Meta and
Google, my ability to test.
To take an experimental mindset.
As an entrepreneur,this is huge, right?
Because so much ofentrepreneurship is you
test something, you seeif it works, you iterate.
You test something, yousee if it works, iterate.
And for me, that's reallyjust the scientific method.
(24:33):
Right?
I have a hypothesis.
I gather some data.
I update the hypothesis,I gather some more data.
And so it feels likemy scientific training
benefits me there.
And when I was doingmy best work at those
companies, I was helpingthem run smart experiments.
Run experiments where the datawas actually gonna inform a
decision, or we could actuallystructure the experiment
in a way that it was gonnagather good data and not just
(24:56):
confirm some execs belief.
Right?
So structuring goodexperiments and knowing
how to interpret that data.
I did that in graduate school.
I did that in the techindustry, and I do that
now, albeit in differentways with different goals.
That methodology, I think,is the thing that carries
through all of them.
Jesse Butts (25:14):
So as you've looked back, what do you think you
had to learn about yourselfto find work that fit you?
I, I mean, and I'mparticularly interested in
this, because you've had twocareers post the, the PhD?
Tory Wobber (25:28):
I'm now on my third career, right?
My third chapter.
I'm finally startingto get it right.
I'm finally starting totune some of the things
in line with what I want.
So I think it really is aboutknowing yourself, knowing the
opportunity and accuratelygauging the fit between the two.
Really honestly, the otherthing I think I'm realizing is
to listen to my gut, but letmy head, with the standards
(25:52):
have some minimum viablestandards and have those be met.
But not have my headmake the decision.
So for example, too often,I see folks wanna make a,
a job choice off of, Thispays me the highest salary.
This looks good on a resume.
Those are sort of head choices.
Where a gut choiceis, This is enjoyable.
This is fulfilling.
(26:13):
I find meaning here.
I wanna do it, and Idon't really know why.
I now opt towards my gutmaking the choices and
my head supporting it.
Almost like my head playingcatch up, being like, Well, how
do we finance this crazy thingthat she's come up with, right?
And so that's not to sayI ignore that head voice,
because everyone needsto have some level of
stability and standards.
(26:34):
But the more I've learned tolisten to my gut and trust
it, as opposed to take whatother folks say is a good
idea, or what other folksvalue, or what I think I
should do as my guidance thatclarity and willingness to
listen to my own gut voice hasallowed me to find work that
is really fulfilling for me.
Jesse Butts (26:54):
From your perspective, how
important is job fit?
Or, or said differently, Doyou need to love your work?
Tory Wobber (27:02):
I think for me, it's critical because that
would be pretty hypocritical tocoach folks on work fulfillment
and not be fulfilled myself.
Right?
Like, this is really importantfor you, but I don't need it.
Like, no.
And so me ,being an example,living what I'm, I'm advocating
for folks, which it is possibleto find work that gives you
(27:24):
meaning and enjoyment and paysthe bills at the same time.
By really crafting thatmyself, I believe I create
space for other folksto see that's possible.
And so for me, inparticular, that's important.
And I think there arephases of life where we may
have to turn off meaning.
Right?
Where something, some financialconsideration, some other
(27:45):
thing might force us to takea work situation that is
not fulfilling for a time.
But that eventually, thatmight eat into your soul.
And so the more you cancontinue to have an eye towards,
Where is my fulfillment?
Am I consciously makingchoices to optimize towards it?
Am I deprioritizing it?
And if so, for how long?
(28:07):
I think being deliberate andintentional about those choices.
I've then seen folks chooseto downplay the role of
work in their life, butdo so intentionally.
And that's very different fromalmost running on inertia or
running on a sense of here'swhat everyone else is doing.
So I'm gonna do the same thing.
Jesse Butts (28:26):
One thing I'm curious about is the
concept of fulfillment.
Does fulfillment to youmean, at the end of, of work,
like, Oh, that was nice.
I feel like I did some good.
Or is it, That was amazing.
I just wanna keep doing this.
Like, I know that each of ushas our own personal definition.
I'm just kind of curiouswhen people might press
(28:48):
you for, Well, what exactlydoes, does that mean?
How do you typically guide them?
Tory Wobber (28:53):
Here's how fulfillment looks for me.
And again, this does look alittle bit different for each
person who I work with on this.
For me, there are two levels.
One is sort of the head leveland one is more the heart level.
The head level allows meto say, Hey, I'm living
in line with my values.
Right?
These things that I havesaid are important to me.
Freedom, authenticity,integrity.
(29:16):
I get to live in linewith those most days.
That's pretty awesome.
And my head is also prettyhappy these days that I
don't have to do very muchwork that I don't like.
Right?
Like when I was in my pastroles, it was always this
balance of, Well, if I like halfof it and I don't like half of
it, I guess I can balance that.
I now probably the, thepercentage of things I do that
I don't enjoy is under 5%.
(29:37):
Right?
That's really lucky.
I realize how fortunate that is.
So that's sort ofthe head feeling.
The gut feeling is, Yeah,just that sense of, I come
out of conversation withfolks feeling more alive,
feeling energized, and I'velearned to sort of monitor
my own levels of aliveness.
And in coaching, we have thisterm called resonance, right?
(29:59):
Just that sense that someone'soscillating on the frequency
that they're in tune with.
And so that feelingis there for me.
And the head markers are met.
And so with both of those,I can say I'm feeling
fulfilled and content.
That doesn't mean thatevery day is a party and
amazing and whoa, I did thebiggest thing in the world.
But that sort of, overthe longer term, yeah,
(30:20):
I really don't have toomany days where I say to
myself, Why am I doing this?
I don't like this.
I shouldn't be doing this.
And so, yeah, I, I can'tthink, I mean, I maybe have
one of those days, everysix months, where I doubt
and say, is this right?
I don't know, but it's apretty good, pretty good
rate to be satisfied withwhat I'm doing to that level.
(30:40):
At least for me.
Jesse Butts (30:42):
What's your relationship to work?
Like how large of a roledoes it play in your life?
Tory Wobber (30:47):
Yeah, I think work is one of my sources of meaning.
Right?
I, I really feelmeaning in what I do.
That opportunity, especiallyfor PhDs to move into tech,
that's often an order ofmagnitude change in salary.
They get to have thisbrand new life and set of
opportunities open for them.
And so when I help folksmake that leap, that really
(31:09):
makes me happy to have madethat a little bit easier
and more pain free for them.
But I now have also gottento the point where work is
not me, if that makes sense.
So I do meaningful work,but I am not that work.
And so one of the greatthings about living in Mexico
actually is that I work ina place where no one around
(31:31):
me is part of my work.
All of my work is througha screen or a phone.
I don't do any of it locally.
And so when I turn thosethings off, I am here.
I am living in this place.
I'm exploring being partof a different culture, and
learning Spanish, and tryingfoods I'd never imagined.
And so there's a senseof really enjoying the
life part of my life.
(31:51):
While also enjoying the workand having a pretty good
boundary and distance betweenthe two almost because my work
is not physically co-located.
You know, I have this littleoffice space here in my house.
And other than that, Iam in a place where it's
easy to put work down.
Jesse Butts (32:07):
I've noticed with guests who have PhDs,
they're, more than mymaster's guests, they tend
to struggle with identity.
Like you were bringing up.
Like, I put all thiswork and I just...
I am a professor.
Or I am an academician.
Or you know, I'm a smart person.
I have to work where thesmart people work, which is,
you know, at the university.
(32:29):
It sounds like that.
And you know, I, if I'mwrong, please correct me,
but it sounds like you, youdidn't have at least a large
struggle in, in those regards?
Tory Wobber (32:40):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna push back because
you're talking to me in 2022.
If you had talked tome in 2013, oh my gosh.
That's where the sostruggle was, right?
That year that I spentdeciding it was okay to leave.
That was grieving the lossof my academic identity.
Grieving that dream of beingthe professor who has the
(33:02):
books lining the shelves.
And, you know, I'll tellyou what, I didn't actually
get rid of those booksuntil I moved to Mexico.
So a little fiber of thatdream lasted for years
of, No, I'm gonna be thatprofessor who has the books
on the shelves, who has thestudents come in and they
see this really smart person.
Very much a dream.
And so coping with the loss ofthat identity and then building
(33:22):
up an identity of who I wasin tech took a ton of work.
And so you're talking to menow, having done that work,
having done that personalwork to say, Am I what I do?
And I think having hada few careers, I can
say, No, I do what I do.
I get meaning from what I do.
But it is not my identity.
(33:43):
It is a part of my identity.
The metaphor I sometimes liketo use here, and it's a little
bit of a weird one, but I'llpull it out, I assume you've
read or seen Harry Potter?
Jesse Butts (33:53):
I read the first book.
Tory Wobber (33:55):
Okay, so you've...
Oh, you read onlythe first book.
Okay.
Then this metaphor may not land.
I'll.
I'll see what elseI can describe it.
The, the bad guy in HarryPotter, Voldemort, he has
his system where he divideshis soul in parts so that
it makes him harder to kill.
And so he places his soulin different objects.
Sorry, spoiler alert.
They're called horcruxes.
And when that happens, if youdestroy one, he still exists.
(34:16):
And so not to say that weshould all follow Voldemort.
But the redundancythere, the, Hey, my soul,
isn't all in one place.
And so if any one areais out of whack, my whole
world doesn't fall apart.
And too often folks put95% of their soul in work.
And so if work isn't goingwell, everything falls apart.
(34:37):
Where now, if I say, Nah, Ihave 40% of myself in work and
40% of myself in life and 20%tied up in this little dog.
If any one of those isactually out of whack.
If my dog is in thehospital, it is hard.
It is tough.
But it doesn't mean mywhole world is falling down.
If I have a hard month interms of, Ooh, I didn't really
get any clients this month.
I didn't really buildthat much business.
(34:59):
Yeah, that's tough.
I've gotta have somesolutions, but my whole
world doesn't fall apart.
It doesn't mean thatI'm not good enough.
Jesse Butts (35:06):
What was that work when you were referring
to you did the work...
I mean, if that's a verypersonal question, but I'm
curious, like for people whoare listening, who, who are
experiencing that, or arenervous about that, like,
what did you do to, to helpyourself overcome that?
Tory Wobber (35:22):
Yeah.
I mean, here's what I'll put.
Too often with that workthat gets us to the place
of feeling comfortable withourselves, confident in our
authentic selves, grounded.
That is internal work thatwe try to do externally.
We hope that a job will fix it.
We hope that apartner will fix it.
We hope that a locationchange will fix it.
And unfortunately, it's workthat has to be done internally.
(35:45):
And so working with aprofessional, like a therapist,
I've worked with a coupleof therapists with a coach.
I've worked with acouple of coaches.
One of the great thingsabout coaching training is
you actually get coachedas well as coaching.
And so it's a greatpersonal growth experience.
Right?
Doing that internal work toget to know one's self to be
more mindful, more self-aware.
(36:07):
I even now am deepening thisthrough doing yoga, right.
To actually be more physicallyaware of my body, cuz I
have a decent awareness ofmy mind and my emotions,
but what about my muscles?
Like how are they doingon a day to day basis?
And so being committed toknowing one's self, people
are sometimes scared of it.
And so they wanna make theexternal changes and assume
that that's gonna change things.
(36:28):
But if you have the courage todo the internal work, that's
where you're gonna see the mostmileage in my experience on
finding that confidence, thatauthenticity, that groundedness.
And it's possible to do alone.
You can do some reading.
You can do some journaling.
But often having resourcesfor folks who can be guides
in that growth can help youhave a structure to navigate
(36:50):
that more effectively.
That's what I've found.
Jesse Butts (36:53):
It's a pretty good segue into, to what
I was gonna ask you about.
Resources?
Obviously, you are a greatresource, especially if someone
has a social science PhD.
Any other resources thatyou recommend for people?
Tory Wobber (37:05):
Yeah.
Well, and so my favoriteone and, and some folks
push back on this, and so Ihave alternatives are info
gathering conversations,informational interviews.
Right?
And so if you have friendswho seem happy in their work,
asking if you can have 30,45 minutes of their time to
just say, What do you do?
What do you do during your day?
What does that mean?
What does that translate to?
(37:26):
What do you like?
What don't you like?
Because too oftenacademics only have data
on academics as a path.
They're not comparingthat against alternatives.
Where my goal would be thatfolks choose academia in an
informed choice, saying, Iknow I can do this, or I can
do this, this, this right.
A, B, or C.
I choose to go with A.
(37:48):
And so talking to folks abouttheir jobs gives you a sense
of external opportunitiesas well as then you can
gauge your own clique.
Huh?
Do I think I would like that?
What would I like about that?
What would I hate about that?
So you get more externaland internal information
by being open to exploring.
If you don't feel comfortablewith one on one conversations,
(38:08):
I'm now hosting these panels,which I think are a really
easy way to get started.
Right?
So you can listen to metalk to folks about their
jobs, like what you're doingwith this podcast, right?
You basically hear otherpeople's perspectives.
And even that can start to openthe door to what's possible.
And so podcasts, panels, youknow, for folks interested
(38:30):
in UX, I think there's likea UX coffee chats one, right?
Like really just listening andallowing that to open doors.
That is probably yourfirst resource, right?
Books, panels, podcasts.
After that, I wouldsay conversations.
And then when you're actuallyready to make the move and you
wanna know how then engagingfolks like myself, or there're
(38:50):
actually a number of othergreat career coaches on Twitter.
O ther PhD coaches who havedifferent focal points.
And so engaging, one ofus can actually help you
navigate those end stages.
But very early on, allowingyourself to explore is probably
the biggest tool or resource.
Jesse Butts (39:07):
How can people contact you?
Where can people find you?
Tory Wobber (39:10):
Yeah.
So the best place to findmy PhD resources is under
this site called Gumroad,where I've basically put
all my Academic Exit stuff.
So there's my playbook.
There's various blog posts.
And so if you look forTory Wobber Gumroad,
you'll find my stuff there.
And that's G U M R O A D.
(39:30):
You can look at my website aswell, but that's more generally
focused since I have otherclients aside from PhD folks.
I will also say if you're reallyjust early stages exploring,
following me on Twitter.
I have the AcademicExit Twitter account.
That allows folks justto get a sense of what's
possible very early stage.
And then if you're saying,No, I'm actually doing this, I
(39:50):
need some sort of guidance toget through to the end stages,
that's where my Academic Exitpackage and resources that
are available on Gumroad mightbe best suited for folks.
Jesse Butts (40:01):
And I'll be sure to include links to
all of those in the shownotes for, for everyone.
All right.
Well, Tory, this has beena wonderful conversation.
Thanks so much fortaking the time.
Tory Wobber (40:09):
Thanks so much, Jesse.
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