Jackie held down six (six!) part-time jobs after grad school. But a couple years into her first full-time gig, her art and career hit a lull.
That’s when she started devoting her commute time to learning everything she could about digital marketing. In relatively short order, she secured a full-time marketing position at a small agency. And she started focusing on her art in the early mornings, soon joining a shared studio space where she could better create and showcase her abstract and geometric art.
Now she helps fellow artists hone their craft and balance their practice with the Level Up Artists podcast and her online course, all while flourishing as a marketer.
By focusing on processes she could incorporate into her life — and not abiding by the unwritten rules of how artists and scholars should live and work — Jackie has found a day job that informs her artwork, and vice versa.
Book mentioned
The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss
Where to find Jackie, Level Up Artists, & Jackie’s art work
JaclynSanders.com and Jackie on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, LinkedIn, and Facebook
Check out more from The Work Seminar
Visit theworkseminar.com or find @TheWorkSeminar on social media.
Sign up for The Work Seminar newsletter to receive updates straight to your inbox.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesse Butts (00:23):
Hey everyone, thanks for joining me
for another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting withJackie Sanders, an MA in
material culture and publichumanities from Virginia Tech
turned digital marketer andvisual artist entrepreneur.
Jackie is now a social mediacontent specialist for small
businesses at an advertisingfirm, the founder of Jaclyn
(00:45):
Sanders Studios, a fine artsbusiness, and the co-host of
the Level Up Artists podcast.
Earlier this year, she launchedher creative coaching program
for career minded artists.
Jackie, welcome to the show.
Delighted to have you on.
Jackie Sanders (00:59):
Thank you so much for having me, I'm
excited to talk to you today.
Jesse Butts (01:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, there's a lot in yourintro, you're, you're in many
different fields professionally,creatively, but I, I am a
little bit curious about your,your grad degree, material
culture and public humanities.
I have to admit I'm notterribly familiar with that.
Could you tell us a littlebit about that degree?
Like what did that cover?
(01:23):
Like what were youstudying in that program?
Jackie Sanders (01:25):
Yeah, so material culture and
public humanities, it'sa theory based program.
And so essentially it'sthe study of history
through objects.
So many people with thatdegree will go into a
more specific focus.
I was focusing on exhibitiondesign within museums
and galleries, visual artgalleries, cause I was a
(01:47):
visual art undergrad, got abachelor of arts in studio
art and then a or bachelorof fine art in studio art, a
bachelor of art in art history.
And so it really was for methat missing puzzle piece
of, I loved the arts, lovedexploring it, loving history.
But from a practical standpoint,I feel like a big conversation
(02:08):
for most people that get liberalarts degrees is, Okay, you
have this passion, you havethis interest, but what does a
career in this field look like?
And so, as I was approachingundergrad graduation,
this master's degreeseemed like a perfect fit.
It was at the same placeI had done my undergrad.
And actually one of myprofessors is the one who
(02:29):
suggested that I would bea good fit for the program.
So it wasn't necessarilystudying a specific type of
artwork or a specific era, whereyou would then be able to list
off every DaVinci painting andknowing where he painted it.
It wasn't that type of focus.
It was more so from ageneral sense of how do we,
(02:51):
as a society, interact withthe objects that we have?
How does the objects thatwe value then reflect
the values of society?
And so especially whenyou're thinking of a
museum or an exhibitionconversation, it really
comes down to storytelling.
And so much of historyis storytelling.
(03:12):
So a very simple example of...
if you have a plastic spoonwhere in the future, if
they uncover this currentcivilization of there are all
these plastic spoons everywhere,what does that say about
what the community values?
What does it say about the typesof lifestyle that they had?
And what stories could becrafted around these larger
(03:34):
ideas around this one object?
And so it really was froma application standpoint, I
think what kind of got me intostorytelling and being able to
convey a message and essentiallycommunicate to people both
from a art standpoint, bothfrom an exhibition standpoint,
but also as now in my currentday job into marketing of,
(03:57):
Okay here's an object, here'sa service, here's a product.
Why should people care about it?
And putting that contextaround those pieces.
Jesse Butts (04:06):
Yeah, that's a, a great segue too.
I was going to ask if youcould share a bit about your
work in digital marketing andsocial media marketing, like
what, what is your day to daylike in that type of work?
Jackie Sanders (04:16):
Yeah.
So currently I work for adigital marketing agency.
It was definitely a, not thepath that I envisioned myself
going after grad school,but it, of course looking
back the path makes sense.
So in undergrad, I wasreally focused on getting
as many experiences as Icould in the arts world.
(04:37):
Producing artwork of my own,getting internships at museums
that focused on education,which I soon realized I didn't
necessarily wanna do hands oneducation with kids, running
a student run art gallery of,Okay, what is the behind the
scenes of creating exhibitionschedules look like and putting
open calls out for artwork.
(04:57):
And then also working atthe performing art center on
campus at Virginia Tech, whereI went to school, assisting
curators with unpacking artwork,laying out an exhibition,
physically hanging it.
And so in undergrad, I wasreally focused on getting as
many experiences and skillsas possible, because I wasn't
sure what path I wanted to take,but getting as many skills as
(05:19):
possible, I figure was not abad plan or at the very least
I would understand what jobsin the art world I may not
want to do, which I think isas equally valuable, and have
more appreciation for otherpeople in those positions.
And so I kind of tookthat mindset into
after graduation life.
(05:41):
I worked at a laser engravingstudio, um, using more
of my fine art degree.
And so I was working at a smallcompany working in graphic
design and production, andreally started gaining an
interest in marketing and socialmedia for small companies.
Ended up launching thesocial media content for that
company, which then grew intoa opportunity in the job I
(06:05):
have now of creating socialmedia content for over 70
different clients nationwide.
So creating content over fivedifferent social media platforms
for 70 different clients.
Over like 600 uniquecontent posts a month, I
think it comes down to.
So it's definitely a lotof work, but I really value
(06:29):
as someone who, especially,I think in the arts field,
so many of the galleries ormuseums or nonprofits are
operating as if they are smallbusinesses and understanding
how much of a value havingmarketing and having a good
online presence can do toreally help a small business.
So I love being able towork at the agency I do now.
(06:52):
It's an amazing team,amazing people, and
super, super rewarding.
Jesse Butts (06:56):
Can you just talk a little bit about, what
type of art are you making?
What is level up artists allabout and, uh, that course
that you just created?
Jackie Sanders (07:04):
Yeah.
So in addition to my day jobin digital marketing, I also
have J Sanders Studio, whichis a fine art business where
I make original art paint orpaintings and art products.
And so I have a studio indowntown Raleigh, North
Carolina, that's open to thepublic so people can come see
my work in progress as wellas purchase completed pieces.
(07:27):
My friend Adriana Ameigh andI, who's also an artist at Art
Space, we launched Level UpArtists in 2021, because we
really wanted to share forwardall of the amazing advice and
business lessons that otherartists had been so generous to
share with us, really embracingthat idea of community over
competition and sharing forwardall of that information.
(07:50):
And so we launched the LevelUp Artist podcast, streams
on all platforms, as well asonline courses where we really
talk the business side ofcreating a fine art business.
But my art, I do abstractgeometric work and as I said,
art products, so it's definitelya multifaceted business
(08:10):
doing education, mentorship,building a community.
And then of course, as anartist, still going true
to my undergrad degree ofmaking work and sharing
that with the world too.
Jesse Butts (08:23):
Nice.
You mentioned youwere at the laser...
a laser engravingcompany at that time.
So were you working at thatcompany in an arts role,
like right after grad school?
Was this somethingduring school?
If you could just kind ofgive us a little bit of that
chronological background,that would be helpful.
Jackie Sanders (08:42):
Yeah.
So I graduated gradschool in 2016.
As many people do, youfeel on top of the world.
I felt like I had reallyequipped myself in
undergrad with all of thosedifferent experiences.
I loved my classes, had that,that grad school bubble of
protection, so to speak.
I'm from Maryland originally,but I moved to Raleigh.
(09:03):
I just have alwaysloved the city.
I had family in town.
And so kind of knew I wasgonna have to hustle to
make opportunities happen.
I'd been trying to do interviewsand going to regional museum
conferences, cause that'soriginally what I wanted to
do, was to work in a museumin a gallery doing some type
of curatorial exhibition work.
(09:25):
And so I was really goinglaser focus, no pun intended
into that direction.
But as many graduatessoon find it is a super
competitive market.
Even if you have amazinginternships, amazing
conferences that you'reattending, even networking.
It is very competitive forsome of these larger positions.
(09:45):
And so I ended up pivotingand really applying
more of my art skills.
In undergrad, I hadapprenticed under one of my
professors, Eric Standleyin producing his artwork and
assisting him in this studio.
And he used a CO2 laserand does incredible,
incredible paper sculptures.
And so I was basically trainedon this technology, thinking
(10:07):
it was just something cool.
I used it in my artwork incollege, but, and mentally
I'd kind of been like, Ohthat was a cool experience.
Now let me get onto thequote unquote real work, like
go to grad school, go intomuseums, go into galleries.
And so with the laser engravingstudio that I ended up working
at, I honestly just walkedin the door one day and was
(10:28):
like balancing six part-timejobs and thought, What happens
if I could leverage thisskill that I developed a few
years ago using a CO2 laser?
So it wasn't traditionallyin the art space, it was
making more personalizedgifts, and etched crystal,
and, yes, trophies andplaques but also super cool
(10:50):
signage and custom awards.
And so it was creative, butjust in a different sense, in
a more, more graphic designand more production using these
machines to make beautifulthings, bringing visions to
life, as we would say, andso that was a very rewarding
experience of just reimagining,even though I was so clear on,
(11:11):
I wanted to be in museums, Iwanted to be in galleries of, I
can also pivot at any point andthe outcome can turn out well.
So not being stuck in one visionas to what I thought I would be
doing for the rest of my life.
Luckily it was a full time.
That I was able to knockthe other ones off, which
it was a tough decision.
(11:31):
I, one of my part-time jobswas working as a registrar at
a small gallery in Raleigh,which was a great experience.
But just from a fundingstandpoint and a commitment
of being a small team, theycouldn't hire full time.
And so, I had to, from along term sustainability
standpoint, understand itwasn't necessarily sustainable,
(11:54):
juggling all these schedules.
And it was kind of that perfectfit of having a full time
job there to where I couldjust focus on that one thing,
which is a crazy concept.
Jesse Butts (12:06):
How long are you thinking, This is something kind
of interesting, but eventuallyI'll look into full-time work
in a museum or a gallery,versus really thinking about
the different directionsyou could take your career?
Jackie Sanders (12:21):
It really took about two to three years to
where I started recognizingor questioning like, is this
what I wanna do full time?
Do I wanna stay in thisindustry, especially as
professionals there's alwaysthat conversation of there's
a fine line between having avery niche skillset that you
(12:42):
can leverage to your benefit.
But also was I pigeonholingmyself into only having
a certain skillset?
And I think even taking thatmindset from undergrad of
just wanting to do a lotof different things, that
was always an apprehensionof mind of like, am I gonna
stay in this industry for theforeseeable future or try to
(13:03):
go into museums or galleries?
Um, I think through my interviewprocess, when I first moved to
Raleigh, and even applying whenI was in grad school still, I
kind of recognized that if Iwere to go into that space one
day, and it's still not offthe table, but it wouldn't be
because of a traditional I'mgonna apply on indeed.com and
(13:27):
get called for an interview andget accepted to the position.
I think, especially being soyoung, it's very difficult
to get into those higherlevel positions, even if you
have the newest educationfrom grad school and you're
very equipped with skills.
I think really time andrelationships and even knowing
a local area are thingsthat are valued in small
(13:50):
companies and in nonprofits.
Those local networks that mightnot just get you the position,
but when you're in the position,you can then lean on each other
for support or do partnerships.
And so I knew.
It's not off the table byany means right now of that
being in my path one day.
But I knew from moving fromthe laser engraving studio,
(14:12):
I would, that wouldn't bethe direction I would go in.
And that's when I reallystarted thinking about
digital marketing.
It's always been something thatreally interests me when I was
working at the undergrad galleryof OK, how do we make more
students know about our gallery?
How do we promoteit on social media?
How do we just likerebranding visually, but
(14:34):
also our messaging of whowe are and what we're about.
And at the time I justthought, oh, it's like
a cool fun project.
This isn't anythingquote, unquote, real
that I would be doing.
And so really realizing once Iwas working at a small company
at the laser engraving studio,the need for that, at their
company, which is why, inaddition to the work I had been
(14:56):
doing, I offered to start makingsocial media posts for them.
Brainstorming ideas of how wecan contact customers using
newsletters, and really takingthat on as an additional project
that I was then able to leverageto apply to do that full time.
It was a skillset that I sawas more versatile and from my
(15:17):
personal development standpointwas something I knew very
little about, but enough tokind of get my foot in the door.
And just from a service,paying it forward standpoint,
I knew I'd be able to helpmore people, help other small
businesses by doing that atan agency like I work at now.
Jesse Butts (15:36):
Were you still enjoying the, the laser etching?
Or was it this is kind of fun,but it's really not something I
wanna do for 40 hours anymore?
Jackie Sanders (15:45):
I absolutely loved it.
I think, especially cause we hadall of our processes in house,
and so being a small companyas well, we had, I think it
was seven different processes.
It was me and one otherteam member doing all
of the production,doing all of the design.
And so it was very exciting andvery rewarding because within
(16:05):
a matter of two, three days,you take something completely
from design to production,to finishing, and then a
client comes and picks it up.
And they're so excited.
So it was very fulfilling.
But I do think I learnedearly on as with many small
businesses, you wear somany different hats that it
can feel limiting at times,especially as you're trying to
(16:27):
take vacation days or you'rethe only person that can do
certain things, which is veryflattering and very exciting,
but it's also can be limiting.
If you're out sick for certainthings, or if you're taking a
week vacation, you almost haveto like prep before you leave
and then play catch up when youget back, which I think a lot
(16:48):
of industries are like that.
A lot of roles are like that.
But I started recognizing,is this what I want
long, long term?
Like, would I still wannado this 20 years from now?
And I think I really realizedwithin a matter of 2, 3, 4 years
that I had kind of maxed out onwhere I could feel challenged.
(17:08):
And there wasn't much growthopportunity there, which
is something that I alwaysthrive on of constantly
learning and constantlydeveloping new skills.
So once I felt like I wasat the point where there
wasn't places where I couldgrow, we still have an
amazing relationship now.
And I actually use them andtheir machinery to produce
(17:28):
a handful of elementsin my own art practice.
So I've loved being able toalso support them as a local
business now as a customer, notas an employee, but being able
to maintain that partnership.
I just kind of realizedthat that wasn't my forever
role, and trying to figureout what that new role was.
Jesse Butts (17:46):
You just mentioned learning and
acquiring new skills.
Kind of talking about thatskill gap between, you know,
what you're doing with laseretching and marketing, were
you taking online courses?
Were you watching videos?
Like just for the benefitof audience members who, who
maybe like you, know they'redoing something and they see
something else that lookslike it, it would be a good
(18:09):
fit for them, but they don'thave the skills or education.
How did you bridge that gap?
Jackie Sanders (18:16):
Yeah, that's a really, really great question.
I think, especially becauseso many people, no matter
what industry you're in,if you feel like you're
not in a position whereyou wanna be, but you don't
know how to move out of it.
Right.
You're like, well, I can'tdevelop skills for a new job
cause I'm doing my currentjob and maybe feeling burnt
out by it or feeling justunfulfilled and unmotivated.
(18:38):
And for me it really wasleaning into digital and
online mentors and from a verynon-traditional sense of, it
wasn't a traditional course.
It wasn't Zoomcalls with anyone.
I was just honestly bingelistening to every podcast
I could get my hands on.
(18:58):
Every YouTube series, reallyrecognizing who are those big
players in the industry thatare having these voices that
are sharing their knowledge?
I think marketing especially,there's so much online in
terms of people having opinionsabout where the industry
is going, what works onsocial media, what doesn't.
(19:19):
How, as a small business owner,thinking about my art business
especially, how I can usethat to then grow my audience.
And I think that's where itwas a huge benefit for me of, I
wasn't even necessarily thinkingabout it first as something I
could take my day job career in.
I was thinking about it inapplication to my art business.
(19:41):
So it made all of theseeducation courses very practical
and something I could experimentsending newsletters when it
was me and two friends for likethree months were like all of
the people on my newsletter.
But I would spend liketwo hours, like testing
out platforms or whatshould I put on it?
And taking my own time toreally dive into the field
(20:05):
without really knowingthat I was, it was just
something I enjoyed doing.
And I was interested in and Ifelt challenged by, by listening
to as many podcasts as I could.
Reading books.
And then thinking, Wait, I'vedone all of this research,
especially with a 45 minutecommute to work, 45 minute home,
listening on my lunch break andreally doing that for about a
(20:28):
year or two towards the end ofmy time at the laser engraving
studio, like every single day.
Like that adds up, doingthat research on your
own and that passion.
So, being able to then leveragethe skills of, Well, what would
happen if I really appliedthis to my art business,
applied this to my current job?
It was taking on more work, butI knew that it would also then
(20:50):
give me credible experience thatI can then use to jump forward.
Jesse Butts (20:56):
The time that you're talking about with
the courses, the videos,the podcasts, the reading.
Obviously that's not time youspent making art, it's not
time you spent making yourselfknown in the arts community.
Was that a hard sacr...
I mean, maybe you didn'teven consider it a sacrifice.
Maybe I'm putting words in yourmouth, but can you kind of walk
us through that justificationfor, for allotting your time
(21:20):
differently and, and howyou approached all of that?
Jackie Sanders (21:23):
Yeah, that's a very good question.
And I think it wasn'tsomething that I necessarily
saw as, Okay, because comingstraight outta grad school and
undergrad, for many years, Ihad been known as The Artist.
Like in college, peoplekind of know you by like,
Oh, what are you studying?
What's your degree?
And so that was, Ifelt like still a huge
(21:44):
part of my identity.
Even if I was doing a day jobthat wasn't directly related.
Of course it was creative.
But that's something that reallyhit me about two or three years
after moving to Raleigh becauseI didn't know anyone here.
The very practical logistics ofit didn't feel like a sacrifice
(22:05):
to take this job because Ineeded full time hours to be
able to pay to live on my ownand pay for living and all
the things that you have to dowhen you move to a new city.
But I think it reallyhit me when it was
two or three years in.
I had finally like got mygroove with this job was
really being able to...
Jesse Butts (22:25):
The etching job?.
Jackie Sanders (22:26):
The etching job.
Yes.
Sorry.
Yeah.
the laser engravingjob, I was able to like
develop those skills.
So I was kind of getting to aplace where I was comfortable.
There's always that beginninglearning curve of like,
there's so much informationand you're just learning.
But at that point I reallyrealized like I hadn't made
artwork in two to threeyears, like since undergrad.
I'd made craft projectshere and there.
(22:48):
And I think the biggest turningpoint for me, or an almost like
wake up moment was realizingthat the new friends that I had
made here in Raleigh, none ofthem knew that I was creative
or that I was an artist.
And that wasn't partof my identity anymore.
It was part of my personalidentity, but that wasn't
(23:09):
something that I hadbeen known for socially.
And I started reallythinking about that because
to your point, I was alwaysappreciative of the arts.
I would go to the FirstFriday events, but it started
scratching that itch of ratherthan being an observer of
this community, how can I getback into the community again?
(23:30):
Now that I felt more stable,I had like started seeing
the local players of certaingalleries that I really
visited all the time orlocal events that I love
bringing my friends to.
But how do I, not onlyobserve that community,
but get back into it?
And so it really startedwith a daily practice
of making artwork again.
It started at the endof 2018, early 2019.
(23:53):
And then at the end of 2019,I attended my first local
critique group that was runby a gallery here in town.
I was super, super intimidatedbecause at that point I
was starting to question,Like, am I an artist still?
Like I had all of thiscredibility in my college town
and all these experiences,but I was getting further
(24:15):
and further away from that.
So like, do I havewhat it takes?
I'm not in the artsindustry anymore.
What do I have tocontribute now?
And by connecting withlocal artists, other people
who either were full-timeartists or professors at
universities, or had day jobsin something totally different,
but they all showed up.
(24:35):
And it really justenlightened me to what my
involvement in the arts worldlocally could look like.
I'm like, Oh, people work intechnology companies during the
day and then come home and paintin their studio for three hours.
So really seeing other creativesdefine what success as an
artist looked like to them intheir own way, really opened
(24:58):
my eyes to, Okay, what doI want my life to look like
in the local arts industry?
So starting thatcritique group in 2019.
In 2020, it became anamazing support system.
But having a studio in downtownRaleigh was really that pivot
point of being able to connectwith the community, being able
(25:19):
to show my work, and also shareforward to other artists who
are in the position where Iwas when I started this new
creative journey, this new wave,where I felt stuck at a day
job where I wasn't challengedand I was kind of making
it by, but I wasn't feelingthat inspiration or spark.
And so wanting to then shareforward these tools and ideas
(25:41):
and even just be that communitysupport for them of, you always
have a way to reconnect withyour arts industry, even if
it's not in the way that youoriginally thought it would.
Jesse Butts (25:53):
I'm very curious how you, you balance the
full-time job with the studio?
Jackie Sanders (26:01):
So now having a day job that is working
remote, I'll typically doa kind of hybrid schedule.
I also paint a majorityin the morning.
I'm a very early riser when itcomes to my creative energy.
So most of the painting thatI get done is between the
hours of like 5 and 8 AM.
I think I kind of trainedmyself that way when working
(26:23):
at the laser engraving studioof, I knew if I waited till
the evening that I may have towork overtime or someone would
ask me to go out to dinnerand as an extrovert, I was
like, would always say yes.
So I knew if I was gonnaprioritize my creative
practice, I'd have to do itfirst thing in the morning.
And so I just started workingor waking up earlier and
(26:44):
earlier So, whether that'snaturally where I feel creative
energy or I've just trainedmyself that way, I don't know.
But it's something I'vebrought into, even though I
work remotely now, typicallyI'll paint in the morning.
The artists at Art Spacehave 24 hour access to the
building, which is amazing.
And then I'll work myday job from 8 to 5.
(27:06):
I work remote, so I can justwork right from the studio.
And then we're stillopen in the evening.
So I'll have my studioopen from 5 to 7 or all
day on the weekends.
And it's really a nice blendof that marketing job, as
well as my creative practice,as well as being able to
build relationships with thelocal community as they come
Jesse Butts (27:27):
One thing I I've been thinking about as
you've been sharing all thisis you, you kind of break
down the barrier, so to speak,like, a successful marketer
has to be in the office.
Or a successful artist needstheir own studio or gallery.
And you kind of said,Well, you know, I can
(27:49):
still be producing art.
I, I can't balance a job withowning my own or renting my
own studio and so let mefind a solution where there's
essentially a co-workingspace for artists and you
know, the same with the job.
I can do it remotely, so,you know, instead of having
to commute, to make itthere for half an hour.
I can just close my laptopat five and have two hours.
(28:09):
So sometimes we have to reallythink about, you know, we have
this idea of like, If I'm awriter, that means, I need to be
writing from five in the morningtill noon and, or, you know,
whatever your practice mightbe, we've built up all these
ideas about, you know, properartist, proper writer, whatever.
And in reality, there are somany options out there if we're
just willing to look at, Well,it's really about the work
(28:33):
and the output, not the...
not structures in thesense of priorities but
kind of those practicesthat seem so intertwined
with the, the identity.
Jackie Sander (28:43):
Yeah, definitely.
And I a hundred percentagree with that.
I think that was somethingthat, especially early on, it
was almost question everythingin terms of my schedule
or what I thought successas an artist looked like.
I mean, even before I had thecommunity facing studio, I
pretty much took over like thesecond bedroom in my apartment.
(29:05):
Traditionally, that wouldbe like a guest room or
like kind of an office.
Like I had pegboard on the wall.
I had mats on the floor and I'mlike, this is my artist studio.
And I would record videosin there and send it off
to my newsletter page thatagain had like four people
on it, but almost like goingthrough those motions and
learning the skills of likethat I still implement today.
(29:26):
But really doing that from earlyon when it was 5 AM in my second
bedroom of my apartment, here'sa video of what I'm working
on in the studio this morning.
Or recognizing, as youwere saying, like a 45
minute commute to work andhome, how can I use that?
Even if I have a day jobwhere I have to go in,
how can I use that to beproductive time that will
(29:50):
mean something in the future?
So I was like, that'san hour and a half of
education every day.
What we alwayswant is more time.
And so even if you havelimitations on how much of
your time you can controlfor the pieces that you can
control, how can you make it...
become a time that you arethen gonna value in the future.
Jesse Butts (30:14):
What do you find most enjoyable about
your marketing work and yourwork in the arts community?
Jackie San (30:20):
Ooh, great question.
The biggest thing forme is really being
able to tell stories.
I think stories are so powerful.
From a marketing standpoint,being able to really cast
a larger vision as to,it's not just a product
that you're buying.
It's not just a servicethat you're buying.
(30:41):
People buy based on emotions,and being able to use that
skill to then help othersmall business owners make
their visions come to lifeis super, super rewarding.
They can have an HVACcompany that's been
family owned for 20 years.
And by getting the extra leadsto their website, I'm then able
(31:03):
to release stress on their endand help them enjoy their time
with family and friends more.
Kind of those non trackablerewards is the, I think
my favorite thing aboutthe marketing industry.
And from the arts community,really embracing that idea of
community over competition.
I'm a very Type A,go getter person.
(31:24):
Growing up as an athleteas well, I think that has
a lot to do with it ofcompetition and work ethic.
And you have to put the work in.
But I think the challengingpart, but the also super
rewarding part is thecompetition within the
arts industry is likeonly with yourself.
All you can do is focus onyour own growth, and in order
(31:47):
for someone else, in orderfor me to win, it doesn't
mean someone else has to lose.
Being able to share, bringpeople into the conversation
more and more and reallycreate that community to
where you can share forwardadvice that you've learned.
It's not, Oh this ismy precious secret.
I'm keeping it from everyone.
(32:07):
I'm the first person tolike, be the cheerleader
of other artists.
And like, if I find outa awesome business tip or
a online platform that Ilove, like I can't tell
enough people about it.
I'm like, please let me saveyou time because I just did
four hours of research on this.
And like, I don't wantyou not to spend this four
hours, like, please takethis information and like,
(32:28):
see what you can do with it.
And I think that's a reallycontagious mindset and
affects so much of your life.
And especially when buildingthat much of a community
based creative culture issuper, super rewarding.
Jesse Butts (32:43):
Do you envision what I'll call a dual track,
marketer by day, artist, artcommunity entrepreneur by night.
Do you envision that long term?
Jackie Sanders (32:56):
Honestly, that is probably the
question I get most often.
Because most people, especiallywhen they visit my studio,
or they receive my newsletteror they follow me on social
media or listen to the podcast,they're normally very shocked
when I share with them that Ihave a day job because I always
joke that I'm a full-time artistwith the full-time day job.
(33:17):
I don't think you cannecessarily take off
the hat as an artist.
It always affectseverything you do.
But I've always been someone whohas never been excited about the
idea of just doing one thing.
Of like just workingin marketing.
Or just doing a podcast.
Or just whatever the skill wasor the project, I've always been
(33:41):
really intrigued and excitedabout becoming a beginner
again in different processesand learning new things.
And so with balancingdigital marketing and
my creative business.
Currently, I do find thatthey do strengthen each other.
And so right now they reallybalance each other well.
(34:02):
I think inevitably down theroad, there may be a time
where I am able to takemy art business full time.
But currently everything'sseparate and, especially
creatively, I like that byhaving a day job, it also
takes off the pressure frommy creative practice of, This
(34:22):
painting has to sell in orderfor me to make rent this month.
All my business expenses areseparate from my personal
expenses, but it takes thepressure off creatively, which
ultimately I think allows thecreativity to flow better.
Cause as any artist will tellyou, like the second you put a
super harsh deadline or like,This painting has to sell
(34:46):
for $2,600 in order for youto be able to make a bill or
make this timeline, that's alot of pressure and of course
you're gonna play it safe.
You're gonna hold back.
And so I like the abilityto balance both and
also be able to thrive.
And I feel like I'mstill growing in both.
One day, if I feel as thoughone is conflicting with the
(35:08):
other, or I'm at a maximumgrowth point in one area, then
I may have to question it.
Jesse Butts (35:15):
I like to ask guests about work's
role in their life.
And I mean, it's, it'svery apparent, it's a
large role in your life.
Does it ever feel like burnout?
Are there times when you justneed to read a trashy novel or
watch a dumb, you know, show?
Like, I've just, I mean, itjust sounds like you're, you
know, between the marketingand the art and the community
(35:37):
that you've built, do youneed much time to unplug?
Jackie Sanders (35:41):
Yes.
And that is a, I think a greatlesson that many entrepreneurs
learn, or any Type Ago-getters who are structured.
Work is a huge part of my life.
And I think it's one of thosesituations where I truly just
enjoy and I'm excited andinterested so many things, which
is a great problem to have.
(36:01):
Like often I just feellike there's not enough
time because I am so eagerto learn and explore.
But I have learnedthrough experience that
burnout does happen.
And so really recognizingfor myself what those signs
of burnout are so I canlearn, Okay, I might not be
burned out yet, but I needto pull back a little bit
(36:22):
and take time disconnectingand really tracking how much
time I am taking care ofmyself, taking care of my
body, having social outlets.
And those almost become thethings I have to force myself
to prioritize, which for somepeople it's the opposite.
They need accountabilityfor doing a certain project.
(36:44):
Even if it's somethingthey enjoy doing, they
might not get around to it.
I almost find theopposite problem.
Like I have to force myselfto Okay, take six hours and
do something not work related.
Fitness is also a hugepart of my life too.
So that definitely helps ofbeing in local sports leagues
or prioritizing workout butbeing aware, I think of your
(37:06):
energy is super importantbecause especially as an
entrepreneur and as creative,I've kind of learned to
shift my mindset around work.
Rather than seeing relaxationtime as like, Oh that's
just time I'm not beingproductive or I'm not
getting closer to my goals.
It really is quality controlfor my artwork because your
(37:30):
creative energy is affectedby your whole lifestyle.
And so if you're exhaustedand burned out, that's
gonna show in your artwork.
That's gonna show inyour day job performance.
Almost as a way to make sureI can hit all these goals
and get to where I want mycreative career and professional
career to be, I have toprioritize that rest time.
Jesse Butts (37:54):
What questions should someone in or, or
relatively recently out of gradschool be asking themselves if
they're thinking, What I'vestudied, I'm just not sure it's
what's going to, you know, paythe bills or be the career.
What do you think theyshould be asking themselves
when they're thinking aboutthe possibility of working
(38:15):
outside their field of study?
Jackie Sanders (38:17):
Well, first off, when you're applying
to jobs outside your fieldof study, really thinking
about what skills from thisfield are transferable from
what you did in your degree.
Of course, being ableto identify them and
communicate them to a futureemployer is important.
And I think the other thingwould be finding a job that
(38:39):
you can go into that may beoutside of your field to where
you can still move forward inthe field that you studied.
So it may be a day job thathas remote hours that gives
you that flexibility or thatfinancial security, but also
leaves the door open to whereit could develop new skills that
you can then transfer to yourfuture field of study one day.
(39:03):
Or just gives you that freedomto, on your own time, pursue
what you want to do or be partof your local community, whether
creatively or whichever yourfield was and really allow
you to dive in and still feelthe rewarding aspects of it.
Even if it's not your mainfinancial income stream.
Jesse Butts (39:22):
Were there any books or videos or podcasts
that helped you as you werenot necessarily considering
marketing, but consideringsomething different?
Jackie Sanders (39:35):
Just for the overall liberal arts, I do
share a lot of podcasts andbook suggestions on my blog.
So if your listeners wannago take a look at that
at JaclynSanders.com.
But I think the one pivotalone for me was Tim Ferris's
Four-Hour Work Week.
As I've discussed with you,I definitely work more than
(39:55):
four hours in a week, but Ithink by reading that book,
it really made me question,Okay, what matters most to me?
What do I value?
And if everything had to bestripped down, what are things
that I would want to prioritize?
And also it shift myrelationship with my day
(40:16):
job, I think in a liberatingway of like show up, do a
good job, provide value.
But also you're not definedalways by the work that you do.
And that's a very scaryfeeling for some people,
if your identity islinked with your work.
But it's also super liberatingof, you can be parts of a
community and make change and besupport systems for others, even
(40:40):
if it's not your nine to fiveday job, which is very exciting.
Jesse Butts (40:46):
Well, you, you mentioned your, your
blog and your website.
Where can people find moreabout your work, your course,
Level Up Artists, whereshould people be looking?
Jackie Sanders (40:56):
Yeah.
So my website isJaclynSanders.com.
On there, I have my artportfolio as well as
resources for other artists.
More information about mycoaching business and podcast,
the Level Up Artists podcast.
I'm also on social media, onall platforms @JSandersStudio.
Or if you just wanna followthe podcast, it's Level Up
(41:17):
Artists on Instagram andon all streaming platforms.
So Apple Podcasts, GooglePodcasts, Spotify, and
on YouTube because we arevisual artists after all.
So sometimes we wanna see it.
Jesse Butts (41:29):
Thank you, Jacqueline.
This was a wonderfulconversation.
Jackie Sanders (41:31):
Of course.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
Hey everyone, thanks for joining me
for another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting withJackie Sanders, an MA in
material culture and publichumanities from Virginia Tech
turned digital marketer andvisual artist entrepreneur.
Jackie is now a social mediacontent specialist for small
businesses at an advertisingfirm, the founder of Jaclyn
(00:45):
Sanders Studios, a fine artsbusiness, and the co-host of
the Level Up Artists podcast.
Earlier this year, she launchedher creative coaching program
for career minded artists.
Jackie, welcome to the show.
Delighted to have you on.
Jackie Sanders (00:59):
Thank you so much for having me, I'm
excited to talk to you today.
Jesse Butts (01:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, there's a lot in yourintro, you're, you're in many
different fields professionally,creatively, but I, I am a
little bit curious about your,your grad degree, material
culture and public humanities.
I have to admit I'm notterribly familiar with that.
Could you tell us a littlebit about that degree?
Like what did that cover?
(01:23):
Like what were youstudying in that program?
Jackie Sanders (01:25):
Yeah, so material culture and
public humanities, it'sa theory based program.
And so essentially it'sthe study of history
through objects.
So many people with thatdegree will go into a
more specific focus.
I was focusing on exhibitiondesign within museums
and galleries, visual artgalleries, cause I was a
(01:47):
visual art undergrad, got abachelor of arts in studio
art and then a or bachelorof fine art in studio art, a
bachelor of art in art history.
And so it really was for methat missing puzzle piece
of, I loved the arts, lovedexploring it, loving history.
But from a practical standpoint,I feel like a big conversation
(02:08):
for most people that get liberalarts degrees is, Okay, you
have this passion, you havethis interest, but what does a
career in this field look like?
And so, as I was approachingundergrad graduation,
this master's degreeseemed like a perfect fit.
It was at the same placeI had done my undergrad.
And actually one of myprofessors is the one who
(02:29):
suggested that I would bea good fit for the program.
So it wasn't necessarilystudying a specific type of
artwork or a specific era, whereyou would then be able to list
off every DaVinci painting andknowing where he painted it.
It wasn't that type of focus.
It was more so from ageneral sense of how do we,
(02:51):
as a society, interact withthe objects that we have?
How does the objects thatwe value then reflect
the values of society?
And so especially whenyou're thinking of a
museum or an exhibitionconversation, it really
comes down to storytelling.
And so much of historyis storytelling.
(03:12):
So a very simple example of...
if you have a plastic spoonwhere in the future, if
they uncover this currentcivilization of there are all
these plastic spoons everywhere,what does that say about
what the community values?
What does it say about the typesof lifestyle that they had?
And what stories could becrafted around these larger
(03:34):
ideas around this one object?
And so it really was froma application standpoint, I
think what kind of got me intostorytelling and being able to
convey a message and essentiallycommunicate to people both
from a art standpoint, bothfrom an exhibition standpoint,
but also as now in my currentday job into marketing of,
(03:57):
Okay here's an object, here'sa service, here's a product.
Why should people care about it?
And putting that contextaround those pieces.
Jesse Butts (04:06):
Yeah, that's a, a great segue too.
I was going to ask if youcould share a bit about your
work in digital marketing andsocial media marketing, like
what, what is your day to daylike in that type of work?
Jackie Sanders (04:16):
Yeah.
So currently I work for adigital marketing agency.
It was definitely a, not thepath that I envisioned myself
going after grad school,but it, of course looking
back the path makes sense.
So in undergrad, I wasreally focused on getting
as many experiences as Icould in the arts world.
(04:37):
Producing artwork of my own,getting internships at museums
that focused on education,which I soon realized I didn't
necessarily wanna do hands oneducation with kids, running
a student run art gallery of,Okay, what is the behind the
scenes of creating exhibitionschedules look like and putting
open calls out for artwork.
(04:57):
And then also working atthe performing art center on
campus at Virginia Tech, whereI went to school, assisting
curators with unpacking artwork,laying out an exhibition,
physically hanging it.
And so in undergrad, I wasreally focused on getting as
many experiences and skillsas possible, because I wasn't
sure what path I wanted to take,but getting as many skills as
(05:19):
possible, I figure was not abad plan or at the very least
I would understand what jobsin the art world I may not
want to do, which I think isas equally valuable, and have
more appreciation for otherpeople in those positions.
And so I kind of tookthat mindset into
after graduation life.
(05:41):
I worked at a laser engravingstudio, um, using more
of my fine art degree.
And so I was working at a smallcompany working in graphic
design and production, andreally started gaining an
interest in marketing and socialmedia for small companies.
Ended up launching thesocial media content for that
company, which then grew intoa opportunity in the job I
(06:05):
have now of creating socialmedia content for over 70
different clients nationwide.
So creating content over fivedifferent social media platforms
for 70 different clients.
Over like 600 uniquecontent posts a month, I
think it comes down to.
So it's definitely a lotof work, but I really value
(06:29):
as someone who, especially,I think in the arts field,
so many of the galleries ormuseums or nonprofits are
operating as if they are smallbusinesses and understanding
how much of a value havingmarketing and having a good
online presence can do toreally help a small business.
So I love being able towork at the agency I do now.
(06:52):
It's an amazing team,amazing people, and
super, super rewarding.
Jesse Butts (06:56):
Can you just talk a little bit about, what
type of art are you making?
What is level up artists allabout and, uh, that course
that you just created?
Jackie Sanders (07:04):
Yeah.
So in addition to my day jobin digital marketing, I also
have J Sanders Studio, whichis a fine art business where
I make original art paint orpaintings and art products.
And so I have a studio indowntown Raleigh, North
Carolina, that's open to thepublic so people can come see
my work in progress as wellas purchase completed pieces.
(07:27):
My friend Adriana Ameigh andI, who's also an artist at Art
Space, we launched Level UpArtists in 2021, because we
really wanted to share forwardall of the amazing advice and
business lessons that otherartists had been so generous to
share with us, really embracingthat idea of community over
competition and sharing forwardall of that information.
(07:50):
And so we launched the LevelUp Artist podcast, streams
on all platforms, as well asonline courses where we really
talk the business side ofcreating a fine art business.
But my art, I do abstractgeometric work and as I said,
art products, so it's definitelya multifaceted business
(08:10):
doing education, mentorship,building a community.
And then of course, as anartist, still going true
to my undergrad degree ofmaking work and sharing
that with the world too.
Jesse Butts (08:23):
Nice.
You mentioned youwere at the laser...
a laser engravingcompany at that time.
So were you working at thatcompany in an arts role,
like right after grad school?
Was this somethingduring school?
If you could just kind ofgive us a little bit of that
chronological background,that would be helpful.
Jackie Sanders (08:42):
Yeah.
So I graduated gradschool in 2016.
As many people do, youfeel on top of the world.
I felt like I had reallyequipped myself in
undergrad with all of thosedifferent experiences.
I loved my classes, had that,that grad school bubble of
protection, so to speak.
I'm from Maryland originally,but I moved to Raleigh.
(09:03):
I just have alwaysloved the city.
I had family in town.
And so kind of knew I wasgonna have to hustle to
make opportunities happen.
I'd been trying to do interviewsand going to regional museum
conferences, cause that'soriginally what I wanted to
do, was to work in a museumin a gallery doing some type
of curatorial exhibition work.
(09:25):
And so I was really goinglaser focus, no pun intended
into that direction.
But as many graduatessoon find it is a super
competitive market.
Even if you have amazinginternships, amazing
conferences that you'reattending, even networking.
It is very competitive forsome of these larger positions.
(09:45):
And so I ended up pivotingand really applying
more of my art skills.
In undergrad, I hadapprenticed under one of my
professors, Eric Standleyin producing his artwork and
assisting him in this studio.
And he used a CO2 laserand does incredible,
incredible paper sculptures.
And so I was basically trainedon this technology, thinking
(10:07):
it was just something cool.
I used it in my artwork incollege, but, and mentally
I'd kind of been like, Ohthat was a cool experience.
Now let me get onto thequote unquote real work, like
go to grad school, go intomuseums, go into galleries.
And so with the laser engravingstudio that I ended up working
at, I honestly just walkedin the door one day and was
(10:28):
like balancing six part-timejobs and thought, What happens
if I could leverage thisskill that I developed a few
years ago using a CO2 laser?
So it wasn't traditionallyin the art space, it was
making more personalizedgifts, and etched crystal,
and, yes, trophies andplaques but also super cool
(10:50):
signage and custom awards.
And so it was creative, butjust in a different sense, in
a more, more graphic designand more production using these
machines to make beautifulthings, bringing visions to
life, as we would say, andso that was a very rewarding
experience of just reimagining,even though I was so clear on,
(11:11):
I wanted to be in museums, Iwanted to be in galleries of, I
can also pivot at any point andthe outcome can turn out well.
So not being stuck in one visionas to what I thought I would be
doing for the rest of my life.
Luckily it was a full time.
That I was able to knockthe other ones off, which
it was a tough decision.
(11:31):
I, one of my part-time jobswas working as a registrar at
a small gallery in Raleigh,which was a great experience.
But just from a fundingstandpoint and a commitment
of being a small team, theycouldn't hire full time.
And so, I had to, from along term sustainability
standpoint, understand itwasn't necessarily sustainable,
(11:54):
juggling all these schedules.
And it was kind of that perfectfit of having a full time
job there to where I couldjust focus on that one thing,
which is a crazy concept.
Jesse Butts (12:06):
How long are you thinking, This is something kind
of interesting, but eventuallyI'll look into full-time work
in a museum or a gallery,versus really thinking about
the different directionsyou could take your career?
Jackie Sanders (12:21):
It really took about two to three years to
where I started recognizingor questioning like, is this
what I wanna do full time?
Do I wanna stay in thisindustry, especially as
professionals there's alwaysthat conversation of there's
a fine line between having avery niche skillset that you
(12:42):
can leverage to your benefit.
But also was I pigeonholingmyself into only having
a certain skillset?
And I think even taking thatmindset from undergrad of
just wanting to do a lotof different things, that
was always an apprehensionof mind of like, am I gonna
stay in this industry for theforeseeable future or try to
(13:03):
go into museums or galleries?
Um, I think through my interviewprocess, when I first moved to
Raleigh, and even applying whenI was in grad school still, I
kind of recognized that if Iwere to go into that space one
day, and it's still not offthe table, but it wouldn't be
because of a traditional I'mgonna apply on indeed.com and
(13:27):
get called for an interview andget accepted to the position.
I think, especially being soyoung, it's very difficult
to get into those higherlevel positions, even if you
have the newest educationfrom grad school and you're
very equipped with skills.
I think really time andrelationships and even knowing
a local area are thingsthat are valued in small
(13:50):
companies and in nonprofits.
Those local networks that mightnot just get you the position,
but when you're in the position,you can then lean on each other
for support or do partnerships.
And so I knew.
It's not off the table byany means right now of that
being in my path one day.
But I knew from moving fromthe laser engraving studio,
(14:12):
I would, that wouldn't bethe direction I would go in.
And that's when I reallystarted thinking about
digital marketing.
It's always been something thatreally interests me when I was
working at the undergrad galleryof OK, how do we make more
students know about our gallery?
How do we promoteit on social media?
How do we just likerebranding visually, but
(14:34):
also our messaging of whowe are and what we're about.
And at the time I justthought, oh, it's like
a cool fun project.
This isn't anythingquote, unquote, real
that I would be doing.
And so really realizing once Iwas working at a small company
at the laser engraving studio,the need for that, at their
company, which is why, inaddition to the work I had been
(14:56):
doing, I offered to start makingsocial media posts for them.
Brainstorming ideas of how wecan contact customers using
newsletters, and really takingthat on as an additional project
that I was then able to leverageto apply to do that full time.
It was a skillset that I sawas more versatile and from my
(15:17):
personal development standpointwas something I knew very
little about, but enough tokind of get my foot in the door.
And just from a service,paying it forward standpoint,
I knew I'd be able to helpmore people, help other small
businesses by doing that atan agency like I work at now.
Jesse Butts (15:36):
Were you still enjoying the, the laser etching?
Or was it this is kind of fun,but it's really not something I
wanna do for 40 hours anymore?
Jackie Sanders (15:45):
I absolutely loved it.
I think, especially cause we hadall of our processes in house,
and so being a small companyas well, we had, I think it
was seven different processes.
It was me and one otherteam member doing all
of the production,doing all of the design.
And so it was very exciting andvery rewarding because within
(16:05):
a matter of two, three days,you take something completely
from design to production,to finishing, and then a
client comes and picks it up.
And they're so excited.
So it was very fulfilling.
But I do think I learnedearly on as with many small
businesses, you wear somany different hats that it
can feel limiting at times,especially as you're trying to
(16:27):
take vacation days or you'rethe only person that can do
certain things, which is veryflattering and very exciting,
but it's also can be limiting.
If you're out sick for certainthings, or if you're taking a
week vacation, you almost haveto like prep before you leave
and then play catch up when youget back, which I think a lot
(16:48):
of industries are like that.
A lot of roles are like that.
But I started recognizing,is this what I want
long, long term?
Like, would I still wannado this 20 years from now?
And I think I really realizedwithin a matter of 2, 3, 4 years
that I had kind of maxed out onwhere I could feel challenged.
(17:08):
And there wasn't much growthopportunity there, which
is something that I alwaysthrive on of constantly
learning and constantlydeveloping new skills.
So once I felt like I wasat the point where there
wasn't places where I couldgrow, we still have an
amazing relationship now.
And I actually use them andtheir machinery to produce
(17:28):
a handful of elementsin my own art practice.
So I've loved being able toalso support them as a local
business now as a customer, notas an employee, but being able
to maintain that partnership.
I just kind of realizedthat that wasn't my forever
role, and trying to figureout what that new role was.
Jesse Butts (17:46):
You just mentioned learning and
acquiring new skills.
Kind of talking about thatskill gap between, you know,
what you're doing with laseretching and marketing, were
you taking online courses?
Were you watching videos?
Like just for the benefitof audience members who, who
maybe like you, know they'redoing something and they see
something else that lookslike it, it would be a good
(18:09):
fit for them, but they don'thave the skills or education.
How did you bridge that gap?
Jackie Sanders (18:16):
Yeah, that's a really, really great question.
I think, especially becauseso many people, no matter
what industry you're in,if you feel like you're
not in a position whereyou wanna be, but you don't
know how to move out of it.
Right.
You're like, well, I can'tdevelop skills for a new job
cause I'm doing my currentjob and maybe feeling burnt
out by it or feeling justunfulfilled and unmotivated.
(18:38):
And for me it really wasleaning into digital and
online mentors and from a verynon-traditional sense of, it
wasn't a traditional course.
It wasn't Zoomcalls with anyone.
I was just honestly bingelistening to every podcast
I could get my hands on.
(18:58):
Every YouTube series, reallyrecognizing who are those big
players in the industry thatare having these voices that
are sharing their knowledge?
I think marketing especially,there's so much online in
terms of people having opinionsabout where the industry
is going, what works onsocial media, what doesn't.
(19:19):
How, as a small business owner,thinking about my art business
especially, how I can usethat to then grow my audience.
And I think that's where itwas a huge benefit for me of, I
wasn't even necessarily thinkingabout it first as something I
could take my day job career in.
I was thinking about it inapplication to my art business.
(19:41):
So it made all of theseeducation courses very practical
and something I could experimentsending newsletters when it
was me and two friends for likethree months were like all of
the people on my newsletter.
But I would spend liketwo hours, like testing
out platforms or whatshould I put on it?
And taking my own time toreally dive into the field
(20:05):
without really knowingthat I was, it was just
something I enjoyed doing.
And I was interested in and Ifelt challenged by, by listening
to as many podcasts as I could.
Reading books.
And then thinking, Wait, I'vedone all of this research,
especially with a 45 minutecommute to work, 45 minute home,
listening on my lunch break andreally doing that for about a
(20:28):
year or two towards the end ofmy time at the laser engraving
studio, like every single day.
Like that adds up, doingthat research on your
own and that passion.
So, being able to then leveragethe skills of, Well, what would
happen if I really appliedthis to my art business,
applied this to my current job?
It was taking on more work, butI knew that it would also then
(20:50):
give me credible experience thatI can then use to jump forward.
Jesse Butts (20:56):
The time that you're talking about with
the courses, the videos,the podcasts, the reading.
Obviously that's not time youspent making art, it's not
time you spent making yourselfknown in the arts community.
Was that a hard sacr...
I mean, maybe you didn'teven consider it a sacrifice.
Maybe I'm putting words in yourmouth, but can you kind of walk
us through that justificationfor, for allotting your time
(21:20):
differently and, and howyou approached all of that?
Jackie Sanders (21:23):
Yeah, that's a very good question.
And I think it wasn'tsomething that I necessarily
saw as, Okay, because comingstraight outta grad school and
undergrad, for many years, Ihad been known as The Artist.
Like in college, peoplekind of know you by like,
Oh, what are you studying?
What's your degree?
And so that was, Ifelt like still a huge
(21:44):
part of my identity.
Even if I was doing a day jobthat wasn't directly related.
Of course it was creative.
But that's something that reallyhit me about two or three years
after moving to Raleigh becauseI didn't know anyone here.
The very practical logistics ofit didn't feel like a sacrifice
(22:05):
to take this job because Ineeded full time hours to be
able to pay to live on my ownand pay for living and all
the things that you have to dowhen you move to a new city.
But I think it reallyhit me when it was
two or three years in.
I had finally like got mygroove with this job was
really being able to...
Jesse Butts (22:25):
The etching job?.
Jackie Sanders (22:26):
The etching job.
Yes.
Sorry.
Yeah.
the laser engravingjob, I was able to like
develop those skills.
So I was kind of getting to aplace where I was comfortable.
There's always that beginninglearning curve of like,
there's so much informationand you're just learning.
But at that point I reallyrealized like I hadn't made
artwork in two to threeyears, like since undergrad.
I'd made craft projectshere and there.
(22:48):
And I think the biggest turningpoint for me, or an almost like
wake up moment was realizingthat the new friends that I had
made here in Raleigh, none ofthem knew that I was creative
or that I was an artist.
And that wasn't partof my identity anymore.
It was part of my personalidentity, but that wasn't
(23:09):
something that I hadbeen known for socially.
And I started reallythinking about that because
to your point, I was alwaysappreciative of the arts.
I would go to the FirstFriday events, but it started
scratching that itch of ratherthan being an observer of
this community, how can I getback into the community again?
(23:30):
Now that I felt more stable,I had like started seeing
the local players of certaingalleries that I really
visited all the time orlocal events that I love
bringing my friends to.
But how do I, not onlyobserve that community,
but get back into it?
And so it really startedwith a daily practice
of making artwork again.
It started at the endof 2018, early 2019.
(23:53):
And then at the end of 2019,I attended my first local
critique group that was runby a gallery here in town.
I was super, super intimidatedbecause at that point I
was starting to question,Like, am I an artist still?
Like I had all of thiscredibility in my college town
and all these experiences,but I was getting further
(24:15):
and further away from that.
So like, do I havewhat it takes?
I'm not in the artsindustry anymore.
What do I have tocontribute now?
And by connecting withlocal artists, other people
who either were full-timeartists or professors at
universities, or had day jobsin something totally different,
but they all showed up.
(24:35):
And it really justenlightened me to what my
involvement in the arts worldlocally could look like.
I'm like, Oh, people work intechnology companies during the
day and then come home and paintin their studio for three hours.
So really seeing other creativesdefine what success as an
artist looked like to them intheir own way, really opened
(24:58):
my eyes to, Okay, what doI want my life to look like
in the local arts industry?
So starting thatcritique group in 2019.
In 2020, it became anamazing support system.
But having a studio in downtownRaleigh was really that pivot
point of being able to connectwith the community, being able
(25:19):
to show my work, and also shareforward to other artists who
are in the position where Iwas when I started this new
creative journey, this new wave,where I felt stuck at a day
job where I wasn't challengedand I was kind of making
it by, but I wasn't feelingthat inspiration or spark.
And so wanting to then shareforward these tools and ideas
(25:41):
and even just be that communitysupport for them of, you always
have a way to reconnect withyour arts industry, even if
it's not in the way that youoriginally thought it would.
Jesse Butts (25:53):
I'm very curious how you, you balance the
full-time job with the studio?
Jackie Sanders (26:01):
So now having a day job that is working
remote, I'll typically doa kind of hybrid schedule.
I also paint a majorityin the morning.
I'm a very early riser when itcomes to my creative energy.
So most of the painting thatI get done is between the
hours of like 5 and 8 AM.
I think I kind of trainedmyself that way when working
(26:23):
at the laser engraving studioof, I knew if I waited till
the evening that I may have towork overtime or someone would
ask me to go out to dinnerand as an extrovert, I was
like, would always say yes.
So I knew if I was gonnaprioritize my creative
practice, I'd have to do itfirst thing in the morning.
And so I just started workingor waking up earlier and
(26:44):
earlier So, whether that'snaturally where I feel creative
energy or I've just trainedmyself that way, I don't know.
But it's something I'vebrought into, even though I
work remotely now, typicallyI'll paint in the morning.
The artists at Art Spacehave 24 hour access to the
building, which is amazing.
And then I'll work myday job from 8 to 5.
(27:06):
I work remote, so I can justwork right from the studio.
And then we're stillopen in the evening.
So I'll have my studioopen from 5 to 7 or all
day on the weekends.
And it's really a nice blendof that marketing job, as
well as my creative practice,as well as being able to
build relationships with thelocal community as they come
Jesse Butts (27:27):
One thing I I've been thinking about as
you've been sharing all thisis you, you kind of break
down the barrier, so to speak,like, a successful marketer
has to be in the office.
Or a successful artist needstheir own studio or gallery.
And you kind of said,Well, you know, I can
(27:49):
still be producing art.
I, I can't balance a job withowning my own or renting my
own studio and so let mefind a solution where there's
essentially a co-workingspace for artists and you
know, the same with the job.
I can do it remotely, so,you know, instead of having
to commute, to make itthere for half an hour.
I can just close my laptopat five and have two hours.
(28:09):
So sometimes we have to reallythink about, you know, we have
this idea of like, If I'm awriter, that means, I need to be
writing from five in the morningtill noon and, or, you know,
whatever your practice mightbe, we've built up all these
ideas about, you know, properartist, proper writer, whatever.
And in reality, there are somany options out there if we're
just willing to look at, Well,it's really about the work
(28:33):
and the output, not the...
not structures in thesense of priorities but
kind of those practicesthat seem so intertwined
with the, the identity.
Jackie Sander (28:43):
Yeah, definitely.
And I a hundred percentagree with that.
I think that was somethingthat, especially early on, it
was almost question everythingin terms of my schedule
or what I thought successas an artist looked like.
I mean, even before I had thecommunity facing studio, I
pretty much took over like thesecond bedroom in my apartment.
(29:05):
Traditionally, that wouldbe like a guest room or
like kind of an office.
Like I had pegboard on the wall.
I had mats on the floor and I'mlike, this is my artist studio.
And I would record videosin there and send it off
to my newsletter page thatagain had like four people
on it, but almost like goingthrough those motions and
learning the skills of likethat I still implement today.
(29:26):
But really doing that from earlyon when it was 5 AM in my second
bedroom of my apartment, here'sa video of what I'm working
on in the studio this morning.
Or recognizing, as youwere saying, like a 45
minute commute to work andhome, how can I use that?
Even if I have a day jobwhere I have to go in,
how can I use that to beproductive time that will
(29:50):
mean something in the future?
So I was like, that'san hour and a half of
education every day.
What we alwayswant is more time.
And so even if you havelimitations on how much of
your time you can controlfor the pieces that you can
control, how can you make it...
become a time that you arethen gonna value in the future.
Jesse Butts (30:14):
What do you find most enjoyable about
your marketing work and yourwork in the arts community?
Jackie San (30:20):
Ooh, great question.
The biggest thing forme is really being
able to tell stories.
I think stories are so powerful.
From a marketing standpoint,being able to really cast
a larger vision as to,it's not just a product
that you're buying.
It's not just a servicethat you're buying.
(30:41):
People buy based on emotions,and being able to use that
skill to then help othersmall business owners make
their visions come to lifeis super, super rewarding.
They can have an HVACcompany that's been
family owned for 20 years.
And by getting the extra leadsto their website, I'm then able
(31:03):
to release stress on their endand help them enjoy their time
with family and friends more.
Kind of those non trackablerewards is the, I think
my favorite thing aboutthe marketing industry.
And from the arts community,really embracing that idea of
community over competition.
I'm a very Type A,go getter person.
(31:24):
Growing up as an athleteas well, I think that has
a lot to do with it ofcompetition and work ethic.
And you have to put the work in.
But I think the challengingpart, but the also super
rewarding part is thecompetition within the
arts industry is likeonly with yourself.
All you can do is focus onyour own growth, and in order
(31:47):
for someone else, in orderfor me to win, it doesn't
mean someone else has to lose.
Being able to share, bringpeople into the conversation
more and more and reallycreate that community to
where you can share forwardadvice that you've learned.
It's not, Oh this ismy precious secret.
I'm keeping it from everyone.
(32:07):
I'm the first person tolike, be the cheerleader
of other artists.
And like, if I find outa awesome business tip or
a online platform that Ilove, like I can't tell
enough people about it.
I'm like, please let me saveyou time because I just did
four hours of research on this.
And like, I don't wantyou not to spend this four
hours, like, please takethis information and like,
(32:28):
see what you can do with it.
And I think that's a reallycontagious mindset and
affects so much of your life.
And especially when buildingthat much of a community
based creative culture issuper, super rewarding.
Jesse Butts (32:43):
Do you envision what I'll call a dual track,
marketer by day, artist, artcommunity entrepreneur by night.
Do you envision that long term?
Jackie Sanders (32:56):
Honestly, that is probably the
question I get most often.
Because most people, especiallywhen they visit my studio,
or they receive my newsletteror they follow me on social
media or listen to the podcast,they're normally very shocked
when I share with them that Ihave a day job because I always
joke that I'm a full-time artistwith the full-time day job.
(33:17):
I don't think you cannecessarily take off
the hat as an artist.
It always affectseverything you do.
But I've always been someone whohas never been excited about the
idea of just doing one thing.
Of like just workingin marketing.
Or just doing a podcast.
Or just whatever the skill wasor the project, I've always been
(33:41):
really intrigued and excitedabout becoming a beginner
again in different processesand learning new things.
And so with balancingdigital marketing and
my creative business.
Currently, I do find thatthey do strengthen each other.
And so right now they reallybalance each other well.
(34:02):
I think inevitably down theroad, there may be a time
where I am able to takemy art business full time.
But currently everything'sseparate and, especially
creatively, I like that byhaving a day job, it also
takes off the pressure frommy creative practice of, This
(34:22):
painting has to sell in orderfor me to make rent this month.
All my business expenses areseparate from my personal
expenses, but it takes thepressure off creatively, which
ultimately I think allows thecreativity to flow better.
Cause as any artist will tellyou, like the second you put a
super harsh deadline or like,This painting has to sell
(34:46):
for $2,600 in order for youto be able to make a bill or
make this timeline, that's alot of pressure and of course
you're gonna play it safe.
You're gonna hold back.
And so I like the abilityto balance both and
also be able to thrive.
And I feel like I'mstill growing in both.
One day, if I feel as thoughone is conflicting with the
(35:08):
other, or I'm at a maximumgrowth point in one area, then
I may have to question it.
Jesse Butts (35:15):
I like to ask guests about work's
role in their life.
And I mean, it's, it'svery apparent, it's a
large role in your life.
Does it ever feel like burnout?
Are there times when you justneed to read a trashy novel or
watch a dumb, you know, show?
Like, I've just, I mean, itjust sounds like you're, you
know, between the marketingand the art and the community
(35:37):
that you've built, do youneed much time to unplug?
Jackie Sanders (35:41):
Yes.
And that is a, I think a greatlesson that many entrepreneurs
learn, or any Type Ago-getters who are structured.
Work is a huge part of my life.
And I think it's one of thosesituations where I truly just
enjoy and I'm excited andinterested so many things, which
is a great problem to have.
(36:01):
Like often I just feellike there's not enough
time because I am so eagerto learn and explore.
But I have learnedthrough experience that
burnout does happen.
And so really recognizingfor myself what those signs
of burnout are so I canlearn, Okay, I might not be
burned out yet, but I needto pull back a little bit
(36:22):
and take time disconnectingand really tracking how much
time I am taking care ofmyself, taking care of my
body, having social outlets.
And those almost become thethings I have to force myself
to prioritize, which for somepeople it's the opposite.
They need accountabilityfor doing a certain project.
(36:44):
Even if it's somethingthey enjoy doing, they
might not get around to it.
I almost find theopposite problem.
Like I have to force myselfto Okay, take six hours and
do something not work related.
Fitness is also a hugepart of my life too.
So that definitely helps ofbeing in local sports leagues
or prioritizing workout butbeing aware, I think of your
(37:06):
energy is super importantbecause especially as an
entrepreneur and as creative,I've kind of learned to
shift my mindset around work.
Rather than seeing relaxationtime as like, Oh that's
just time I'm not beingproductive or I'm not
getting closer to my goals.
It really is quality controlfor my artwork because your
(37:30):
creative energy is affectedby your whole lifestyle.
And so if you're exhaustedand burned out, that's
gonna show in your artwork.
That's gonna show inyour day job performance.
Almost as a way to make sureI can hit all these goals
and get to where I want mycreative career and professional
career to be, I have toprioritize that rest time.
Jesse Butts (37:54):
What questions should someone in or, or
relatively recently out of gradschool be asking themselves if
they're thinking, What I'vestudied, I'm just not sure it's
what's going to, you know, paythe bills or be the career.
What do you think theyshould be asking themselves
when they're thinking aboutthe possibility of working
(38:15):
outside their field of study?
Jackie Sanders (38:17):
Well, first off, when you're applying
to jobs outside your fieldof study, really thinking
about what skills from thisfield are transferable from
what you did in your degree.
Of course, being ableto identify them and
communicate them to a futureemployer is important.
And I think the other thingwould be finding a job that
(38:39):
you can go into that may beoutside of your field to where
you can still move forward inthe field that you studied.
So it may be a day job thathas remote hours that gives
you that flexibility or thatfinancial security, but also
leaves the door open to whereit could develop new skills that
you can then transfer to yourfuture field of study one day.
(39:03):
Or just gives you that freedomto, on your own time, pursue
what you want to do or be partof your local community, whether
creatively or whichever yourfield was and really allow
you to dive in and still feelthe rewarding aspects of it.
Even if it's not your mainfinancial income stream.
Jesse Butts (39:22):
Were there any books or videos or podcasts
that helped you as you werenot necessarily considering
marketing, but consideringsomething different?
Jackie Sanders (39:35):
Just for the overall liberal arts, I do
share a lot of podcasts andbook suggestions on my blog.
So if your listeners wannago take a look at that
at JaclynSanders.com.
But I think the one pivotalone for me was Tim Ferris's
Four-Hour Work Week.
As I've discussed with you,I definitely work more than
(39:55):
four hours in a week, but Ithink by reading that book,
it really made me question,Okay, what matters most to me?
What do I value?
And if everything had to bestripped down, what are things
that I would want to prioritize?
And also it shift myrelationship with my day
(40:16):
job, I think in a liberatingway of like show up, do a
good job, provide value.
But also you're not definedalways by the work that you do.
And that's a very scaryfeeling for some people,
if your identity islinked with your work.
But it's also super liberatingof, you can be parts of a
community and make change and besupport systems for others, even
(40:40):
if it's not your nine to fiveday job, which is very exciting.
Jesse Butts (40:46):
Well, you, you mentioned your, your
blog and your website.
Where can people find moreabout your work, your course,
Level Up Artists, whereshould people be looking?
Jackie Sanders (40:56):
Yeah.
So my website isJaclynSanders.com.
On there, I have my artportfolio as well as
resources for other artists.
More information about mycoaching business and podcast,
the Level Up Artists podcast.
I'm also on social media, onall platforms @JSandersStudio.
Or if you just wanna followthe podcast, it's Level Up
(41:17):
Artists on Instagram andon all streaming platforms.
So Apple Podcasts, GooglePodcasts, Spotify, and
on YouTube because we arevisual artists after all.
So sometimes we wanna see it.
Jesse Butts (41:29):
Thank you, Jacqueline.
This was a wonderfulconversation.
Jackie Sanders (41:31):
Of course.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
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