September 28, 2022 • 41 mins
A self-branded writer/poet, Austin relished the opportunity to hone his creative skills in grad school. And he was open to divergent work after graduation.
Just as he found his footing as a copywriter and social media strategist at a small marketing agency, the Great Recession reared its head, ending his gig six months after he started.
And that marked Austin’s last full-time job.
The freelancing he began during a rough economy morphed into entrepreneurship. Now Austin splits his time between writing, consulting, and building Freelance Cake, where he passes along the lessons he’s learned to land better clients (more pay, less drama) and strategic marketing projects.
His time in grad school — particularly those poetry workshops — instilled a love for the economy of words, which he’s reflected in his copywriting and content ever since.
**Please forgive my poor audio. A couple technical difficulties popped up that I’ve hammered out for future episodes.”**
Books mentioned
Let Your Life Speak by Parker J. Palmer
Give and Take by Adam Grant
Range by David Epstein
Where to find Austin & Freelance Cake
Austin on LinkedIn and Twitter
Check out more from The Work Seminar
Visit theworkseminar.com or find @TheWorkSeminar on social media.
Sign up for The Work Seminar newsletter to receive updates straight to your inbox.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesse Butts (00:23):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chattingwith Austin L.
Church, an MA in Englishfrom the University of
Tennessee-Knoxville turned brandstrategist and business coach.
Austin is the founderof several companies.
He helps bootstrapped founderswith their branding and
strategy, along with freelancerson growing their businesses.
(00:46):
He's also writing a bookabout pricing and money
matters for freelancers.
Austin, welcome to the show.
It's a treat to have you on.
Austin L. Church (00:52):
Thank you so much for the invitation.
I'm delighted to be here.
Jesse Butts (00:57):
So before we talk about how you found your
way from English to, to brandstrategy and business coaching,
can you tell us a little bitabout what you're doing now?
I mentioned you, you havesome, several pursuits.
What exactly are youyou doing day to day for
yourself and for clients?
Austin L. Church (01:14):
I would say I divide my time amongst
three primary things.
Number one is writing,always writing.
You mentioned the book.
I do a lot of writingon LinkedIn, a little
bit on Twitter.
The second thing is consulting.
I have a fractional CMOrole that I fill, and then
(01:35):
I do other projects hereand there, mostly branding
strategy, some marketingand messaging thrown in.
And then the thirdthing is Freelance Cake.
It's a media andeducation company.
I have focus on freelancers,cause I've been one
for so long myself.
And a lot of the teachingand training revolves around
(01:57):
what I call advantages,and those are the beliefs
and habits and levers.
I, I group them all kindof under that, that term
advantages, but, how do you getbetter results with less effort,
especially when life is crazy.
My wife and I have three kids.
And so any, any littleadvantage I can get means a
(02:21):
lot just in the day to day.
Not hustle, not grind, butcrush in the day to day crush.
If you can help me get betterresults with less effort,
I will love you forever.
And so that's what I share.
That's what I focus on.
Jesse Butts (02:34):
And, how long have you been solo?
I mean, what, whether it'sfor one or all of those
three things, just curioushow long you've been working
on your own at this point?
Austin L. Church (02:45):
I got pushed forcibly out of the
9 to 5 nest in April 2009.
So we're recording thisAugust 2022, I guess that's
a little over 13 years atthis point, a long time.
Jesse Butts (02:59):
I always like to talk with guests a bit about
what they did in grad school,but first why they pursued it.
What, in particular foryou made you want to go
beyond your undergrad?
Austin L. Church (03:11):
So right after I graduated, I ended up teaching
high school English for a year.
And I thought thatwould be a good fit.
I was teaching fourclasses of juniors, two
classes of freshman.
This was at a small,private Christian high
school in Nashville,Tennessee, where I grew up.
Well, Jesse, I was notthree months in that I
(03:36):
found my first gray hair.
I'm not even joking And I hada little bit of a not crisis,
but it was that moment where itwas early, early in the morning.
And I was like, What's that?
And I'm like tightening myneck tie and thinking, Is this
really what I want to be doing?
I was 23 at the time.
And I decided I needto go take the GRE.
(03:58):
I need to start applyingto grad schools because I,
I don't think this is whatI want to do long term.
I had wonderful highschool teachers.
I think it's a beautifulcalling, but that experience
of being unfulfilled, at leastin the high school context.
Made me reassess that decision.
(04:20):
I finished out theyear, I applied to 12
schools, I got into one.
I was so embarrassed.
Right.
Because when you startapplying, you tell people
that you're applying andthen people follow up later.
They're like, How's it going?
And you're like, Not great.
I keep on getting theserejection letters.
(04:41):
But ultimately I landedin Knoxville, Tennessee,
which was the only placethat would have me.
So, it was, but it ended upbeing like this providential
thing because it was areally good fit for me.
I still live in Knoxville, loveKnoxville and, yeah, wouldn't
have chosen it if there hadbeen other options on the table.
(05:03):
So thankfully, thereweren't, if that makes sense.
Jesse Butts (05:08):
Yeah.
So when you, when you wereapplying, was it, I really
want to study more English?
Or I don't know what to do,but I was good at school,
so let's go back to that?
Versus, applying for otherjobs or, you know, looking
for some other career options?
Austin L. Church (05:23):
I was that self- branded writer slash poet.
That's the only thing I hadever wanted to do consistently.
And I thought, well, this is onething that I could do because
I love reading and writing.
And I did like teaching.
(05:44):
Right.
But I just don't think at23, I was mature enough to
balance the tactical workof, I need to create a lesson
plan every single day forthe better part of 10 months.
I need to figure out somebetter time management.
So I was up againstthat, but also just
(06:05):
this, these loves, right.
So I, I knew that I was not avery good high school English
teacher, but I knew also that Ireally loved the subject matter.
And to some degree I wasright about pursuing writing
because I still love it.
It's still a passion of mine.
And so it's like, when,in doubt, what love do
(06:28):
you expect to not go away?
Pursue that love.
Jesse Butts (06:34):
So were you, studying literature,
creative writing,rhetoric and composition?
Like what was your areaof focus in grad school?
Au (06:42):
Definitely creative writing.
I entered the programas a fiction writer.
I had one or two shortstories, I think that
were passable enough.
I, I know in retrospect that my,my portfolio was really weak.
I mean, it would not havebeen on the academic side.
I was a little bit cocky becauseI had great grades and you know,
(07:04):
I had all the extracurricularsand all that crap.
But I should have, I should havespent a lot more time writing.
I was that kid that spentmore time talking about
writing than actually writing.
And that has flipflopped in my life.
Now I spent a lot moretime writing than I do
talking about it, but,entered as a fiction writer.
(07:24):
Like, and again, Looking backI'm like, what was I thinking?
The very first workshopthat I took was poetry
writing and not fiction.
Like, Why, why are yougonna enter as a fiction
writer and then immediatelytake poetry classes?
So it didn't make sense,but I did write a bunch
of poems that year.
I did end up actually winningthe graduate creative writing
(07:48):
contest for a poem I enteredand ultimately just changed
tracks from fiction to poetryand finished out the degree
with a thesis of my poemsrather than short stories.
Yeah, I can't say that mychoices made a whole lot
of sense in the order thatI made them, but yeah, I
(08:11):
guess hindsight is 20-20.
Jesse Butts (08:14):
So Austin, what were you planning on...
what did you end updoing after grad school?
Austin L. Church (08:21):
I didn't really have a plan.
A lot of my decisionslooking back, again,
what were you thinking?
I, right after gradschool, went out west,
did a bunch of fishing,goofed off with friends.
Came back early fall with noprospects and ended up getting
a job through an introduction bya friend at a marketing agency.
(08:46):
I had no marketing background.
The portfolio I tookin was a collection of
poems and vignettes andlittle bits and pieces.
I mean, who knows?
I still kind of can'tbelieve that that owner
offered me the job.
He and I have remainedin touch all these years.
(09:07):
But got a job and suddenlyI'm in the marketing world.
Jesse Butts (09:13):
What are you doing in that job?
How long are you at it?
Austin L. Church (09:16):
So I was a copywriter and then a
social media strategist,which sounds really cool.
But the only reason thatrole fell to me was I was the
youngest person on the team.
And the only person whohad a Facebook profile.
Jesse Butts (09:30):
And this was when, like, like roughly?
Austin L. (09:33):
This is October 2008.
Jesse Butts (09:35):
Okay.
Facebook's open to the public,but it's still pretty youth
oriented at that point.
Austin L. Church (09:40):
Exactly.
And so I'm like, I'm like, Wait,you're gonna like position me
as a social media strategistwhen we talk to clients?
I don't know anythingabout, I mean, I'm still
figuring it out myself.
They're like, Well, you knowmore than the rest of us.
And you'll certainly knowmore than our clients.
I'm like, whatever.
(10:01):
And you know, maybe that wasa good sort of baptism by
fire because it's true abouta lot of things where if you
were one lesson ahead whenyou were teaching Romeo and
Juliet, you are the expert.
If you are one lesson aheadwith social media strategy,
that makes you the expert.
Jesse Butts (10:21):
Can you tell us just kind of like
what the day to day was?
And, and what happenedafter, or leading up to
you going out on your own?
Austin L. Chu (10:29):
So I wrote a lot.
I wrote web content.
We would get a client thatwas building a new website or,
you know, updating an old one.
And I would write the wordsthat go on the web pages.
And I was writing copy.
And you can think about thedifference between content
(10:50):
as being, you know, contentis meant to educate or inform
or entertain or inspire.
Copy is meant topersuade and sell.
And believe it or not,creative writing and poetry
in particular was a prettygood entree into copywriting
because in poetry, we talkedabout the economy of language.
(11:13):
Like, how much cargois each word carrying?
The more you can pack in,the more meaning you can
pack in, generally thebetter the poem is, right?
And the same istrue of copywriting.
Whether it's a headlineor a call to action, all
the discrete pieces needto carry their weight.
Carry their share of the load.
(11:33):
So I was writing copy forprint ads, for billboards, for
radio spots, for televisioncommercials, for email
newsletters, for just abouteverything that you can imagine.
And again, Kind of makingit up as I went, because
I don't know anything.
(11:53):
I, I'm, I'm totallygreen, you know?
So half the time I'm signed upby either the principal at the
agency or the creative directorfor a specific project, and then
I'm off to the side, Googlingthings, being like, All right,
what does this even mean?
Like, what am Ieven supposed to do?
So, that's how I spent my days.
(12:15):
Oh, I should also mention beingthe social media strategist, I
was writing a bunch of socialcontent, Facebook posts,
tweets, all that kind of thing.
So, I got laid offafter six months during
The Great Recessionwhen the economy tanked.
But in that six month period,I, I got a ton of experience.
(12:38):
I had to learn all thesedifferent mediums or media,
all these different formats.
Also had to learn that likeall of the rules, whether it
was a particular style guide,like MLA, everything that
I learned about the Englishlanguage and about writing
(12:59):
in grad school got blown up.
Like in the first three weeks,because yes, you can end
sentences with prepositions.
And yes, you can startthem with conjunctions.
Like all that stuffthat I learned.
That's like, oh no, no, no.
Here are the boundarieswe don't cross.
It's like in the world ofadvertising, if it works, do it.
Jesse Butts (13:23):
And I, I can really empathize.
I was, , a victim of a GreatR ecession layoff as well.
So, so we know that you wentsolo, but what was that process?
I mean, did you decide, This ismy time to strike it on my own?
Or, I'll do the freelancething until something opens up?
What were you thinkingat that point?
Austin L. Chur (13:42):
I was terrified.
I felt like an idiot becauseI hadn't saved money.
I had $486 in mychecking account.
So I woke up on a Monday,broke with no prospects and
terrified because I didn'thave this safety net.
(14:03):
Yeah, I could have called myparents and asked them for
money, but I would've foundthat really embarrassing.
Freelancing was thekind of the only option.
One, because I had enoughwherewithal, enough perspective
to realize if I just lostmy job, this type of job is
(14:26):
in short supply right now.
So I could go outand try to find a job
similar to the one I had.
But why would my fate therebe any different really?
So that was the first thing.
And then the second thing was,I didn't have lots of expenses.
I was, I needed $1,100a month at the time.
(14:49):
So I thought, Okay, I haveno idea what I'm doing.
The, the, the one thing thathappened that Monday, or maybe
it was Tuesday, I'd have togo back and look at the email
train, my old boss called me.
Like the guy who had beenmy boss three days before.
And it was the funniestconversation because he
was like, Hey, you probablyweren't expecting to hear
(15:11):
from me so soon, but we can'tactually finish any of the
projects you're working on.
What is your freelance rate?
And I'm sure I was like,Hmm, let me think about that.
And then, like I said,Googling on the side, What
is a freelance rate?
I don't know what we'retalking about here.
(15:31):
But I knew that they billedout my time at $85 an hour.
I just said, Howabout $40 an hour?
Cause I'm thinking atleast that leaves a little
meat on the bone for him.
And he said, Yes.
And so my very first freelanceclient was the agency where
I had worked and my firstfreelance projects were
the exact same projects Ihad been working on before.
(15:53):
And so that, I guess did giveme something of a cushion.
It wasn't great money.
In fact, I learned very quicklythat the hourly model penalizes
speed, efficiency, expertise.
The faster you work,the less you make.
But I am very thankfulthat I got a client.
(16:16):
And then, , the other thingI did was just start going
to entrepeneur events.
More or less just tellingpeople I'm available for hire.
And I will not be picky.
Like I , I wrote so many things.
I had so many boringprojects, but that's kind
of, kind of how it allstarted after I got laid off.
Jesse Butts (16:38):
When did the evolution from gun for
hire, anything anywhere,to consulting with branding
and coaching others...
not just when did that happen?
But what was thattransition like?
How many, you know, how, howlong of a process was that?
Austin L. Church (17:00):
That's a really good question.
I mean, you touchedon something...
There was a big paradigmshift there, right?
From feeling like I wasan artist adrift in the
business world to feelinglike an entrepreneur
who happened to sell hiscreativity or creative skills.
I think the paradigm shiftstarted to happen fairly early.
(17:23):
There were two veryspecific experiences.
One happened within twoweeks after I got laid off.
A friend of mine, a guyI went to church with,
introduced me to anotheragency owner who he thought
might have some work for me.
That guy's nameis Andrew Gordon.
(17:44):
I will eternally begrateful for him.
He didn't realize he wasmentoring me that day,
but that's sort of the,the punchline is that the
shift accelerated in me inpart because of mentors.
People who just knew a lotmore than I did, but we
had a conversation and heasked me what I charge?
(18:06):
And I quoted him the same $40 anhour I had quoted my old boss.
When he said, Do you mindif I give you some advice?
And, you know, anytime someoneasks permission to give
you advice, they have thetype of maturity that makes
the advice that's about tofollow really freaking good.
Right?
Anyway, I am sitting thereand he basically said, I would
(18:31):
raise your rates to at least $75an hour effective immediately
because you're pretty good.
Despite your lack of experience,you've gotten good quickly.
And you will not be takenseriously in larger markets like
Charlotte and Atlanta and DC.
You can compete with thosecopywriters, skill wise talent
(18:53):
wise, but you won't evenget the conversation if your
price is signal that you'reinexperience or you lack
confidence or you're maybeeven unprofessional because
you charge so little, right?
And I'm like, like noone had ever said that
pricing is branding.
(19:15):
That pricing is positioning.
Right?
Because my reasoning was, Well,if I charge 40 an hour and
people are accustomed to payinga lot more, then they'll say,
Great, then I'll get twice asmuch work for the same price.
Right?
Whereas other people are like,You get what you pay for.
So if it's cheap, it's probablynot gonna be very good.
(19:36):
So mentorship reallyhelped spark that
paradigm shift early on.
And the second thing, I'lljust call pattern matching.
And I had no businessbackground, no marketing
background before the agency.
But that didn'tmean I was stupid.
It just meant thatI was inexperienced.
(19:57):
Like I've always beena pretty fast learner.
And I'm pretty goodat noticing things.
And what I noticed earlyon is that people who
ended up being really goodclients would communicate
with me in a certain way.
They would say certainthings or they wouldn't
say certain things.
(20:18):
And, you know, the inversewas true that the people
who ended up being verydifficult down the road.
Well, when we were firststarting the first project,
they would say things like,Well, if you give me a
discount, now I can send youa lot of work in the future.
. Or, they would stroke my ego.
They'd say, Oh, I can tellthat you're really smart.
(20:40):
So why don't you....
And, again, when somebody givesyou an unqualified compliment,
they didn't know me well enoughto say some of this stuff.
I just began to piecethings together.
These patterns emerged.
And so over time I was ableto like become a little bit
more sophisticated in howI was running the business.
(21:02):
In part, because I gotmy teeth kicked in.
And, you know, you have apainful lesson and ideally you
squeeze as much learning asmuch insight as much wisdom
out of that as you can.
So as time went on, eventhough I was pretty lean in
the experience and expertiserealm, I, I learned through
(21:26):
that school of hard knocks,getting my teeth kicked in.
And eventually I'm like, Wait,I started about the same time
as some other people who werefreelancing, either designers or
photographers, writers like me.
I've been able togrow my income.
I've been able to attracthigher caliber clients.
(21:47):
And they still seem to bestruggling with some of the
same problems that I solved.
Even that sort of contrast, noteven that I was like trying to
cast myself in a favorable lightas much as it's like, Okay,
but what did I do differently?
You know, after a while you'rejust connecting the dots.
You're like, Oh, maybe Iactually have a knack for
(22:07):
this, even though for thelongest time, I thought,
Well, I'm just a poet.
Or I'm just a writer.
But eventually I woke up andI was like, I, I think I kind
of have a knack for this.
Jesse Butts (22:17):
You're doing a lot of writing now, whether
it's for your own social mediaor projects or doing some
consulting and you also haveFreelance Cake, the business
that helps with coaching.
How long have you been...
is trifurcating a word?
But how have you beenin this, this lane?
Austin L. Church (22:37):
I, and this is not a good trait, I am
chronically overcommitted.
And believe it or not,only having three things
going on is an improvement.
I have always, I first heard aguy named Darren Rowse use this
term, I've always struggledwith being multi-passionate.
He calls itmulti-passionate disorder.
(22:58):
I've always suffered frommulti passionate disorder.
I mean even like, what was it?
2011?
2011, I started developingmy first iOS app.
And then in 2013 I coco-founded and invested
in a music tech startup.
And then in 2018, Istarted my own branding
(23:22):
and marketing studio.
2018.
I also published a children'sbook and so I've always
had too much going on.
I turned 40 back in Apriland I'm like, there there's
always been that voicein my head that's like,
What's wrong with me?
Like, why can't I just pick onething and just stick with it?
(23:43):
Well, there are a numberof reasons for that, but
being trifurcated is partlyjust, I, I have a lot of
wide ranging interest.
And then also I joke thatart and commerce in me are
these two dragons that arelocked in mortal combat.
(24:04):
I will always love craft.
I will always lovethe sandbox of words.
And I even wrote this one blogpost about I was writing and I'm
like, do I pick the word dearth?
Or do I pick the word shortage?
I prefer the word dearth.
But more people knowthe word shortage.
Right?
(24:25):
So there's the craftsmanin me that just wants to
be a little bit esoteric, alittle bit obscure sometimes.
But then there's that morepractical side of me that's
like, I also need to get paid.
And so that's, that's how Iwould explain being trifurcated
is I'm constantly trying toreconcile this ambition to
(24:50):
build something and FreelanceCake is that ambition.
I want to pay it forward andhelp a lot of artists build
a profitable, sustainablebusiness around the work
that doesn't feel like work.
Around the work they love thework that brings them joy.
You know, and I'd love to havelove to scale up my impact using
(25:12):
that education company, right?
But meanwhile, I'vegotta get paid because I
support a family of five.
And so consultingpays the bills.
And even though I do a lotof coaching with Freelance
Cake, it still hasn't beenenough to entirely replace
(25:32):
my consulting income.
But then the writing is like,well, that's just my first love.
So I always want to be writing.
Does the writing feedthe other things?
Of course, but I know that'sprobably an unsatisfying
answer for anyone who mightlisten, like, Oh, like you
do three things because youhaven't figured out what
it is you really want to do?
(25:53):
And also haven't figured outhow to get paid for that?
I'm like, Yes.
like, haven't gotten, haven'tgotten it all figured out yet.
Sorry.
Jesse Butts (26:01):
But I think it's really helpful too, to hear
that, while you're presentingit, as you haven't figured
it out, you have found somethings that are, that you love
and you're making money withversus a hundred percent
doing something you're not thatinto, but you feel trapped.
Austin L. Church (26:17):
That's right.
And there are a number of peoplewho've said this different ways.
Tom Bilyeu, I heardhim speak at an event.
He said, and I'llparaphrase, You're always
gonna have problems.
So pick the path that has theproblems you actually want.
That really resonated with mebecause being a solopreneur
(26:38):
brings all sorts of problems.
Having a nine to five jobbrings all sorts of problems.
It just comes down to,well, which set of problems
does you, does you...
which set ofproblems do you want?
Because you're alwaysgoing to have them.
Jesse Butts (26:56):
What do you find most enjoyable about your work?
Austin L. Church (27:01):
I love it when I'm coaching a consultant or a
freelancer or an agency owner,and I get an email like her name
is Kelly and she emailed me andshe said, I can't believe it.
I had talked her throughhow to raise her prices
(27:23):
with her main client.
And when it worked andshe got a 33% raise just
with that one client, justfor having the courage to
start the conversation,like the excitement and
the hope and the confidencethat she had, I love that.
Because I know whatit's like to be broke.
(27:46):
I know what it's like tobe paralyzed with anxiety
because you're like, Where'sthe money gonna come from?
And to be able to come alongsidemy people and be a source of
encouragement and to be salt andlight and to, to give them those
levers that I've talked about,beliefs, habits, principles, and
(28:10):
to point them at those things,which will, will be evergreen
and will stand the test of time.
I also just lovesolving problems.
So that's theconsulting side, right?
Like to understand a system, topull it apart and understand
(28:30):
its constituent parts, butthen to say, How do we put this
back together and make it work?
I'm kind of obsessedwith business.
But I would approach it thesame way I might approach
like understanding a workof literature, right?
More like understandingthemes rather than thinking
about it like a machine.
I, I enjoy serving consultingclients in the same way.
(28:54):
How can this brand do a betterjob at creating meaning and
making people's lives better?
Or how can this founder, whois really passionate, fully
communicate why she got intothis in the first place?
(29:14):
Right?
So I like helping peoplereconnect with their passion.
if I'm honest, , I also likehelping people make more money.
Because most of the people thatI work with, it has nothing
to do with buying stuff, andit has everything to do with
like all the cool things theywant to do with money to make
(29:36):
the world a better place.
Some of them justneed a great car.
That's true.
But some, like, I just, whenI ask, What would you do
if you made twice as much?
You would not believe howbeautiful the answers are.
Oh, I would take my grandmotherto Japan to visit her
sister who she hasn't seenface to face in 20 years.
(30:00):
True story.
And I'm like, Oh my goodness.
We've gotta make that happen.
It's paying it forward andit's reconnecting people
with their passion and it'ssolving problems and it's
waking people up to thepossibilities in their lives.
Jesse Butts (30:15):
I'm curious if there are any other
skills that you picked up ingrad school that you know,
unexpectedly, serendipitouslyhave helped you in your career?
Austin L. Church (30:25):
Yes.
I learned how to think.
And I still hear from timeto time, someone crack a joke
about a liberal arts degreeor degree in literature.
And they're like, How'sthat working for you?
And inevitably, these are peoplewho either chose a profession
like accounting or engineering,or it's people who don't see
(30:51):
the connection between thinkingand communication and business.
But I realized that God gave mea good mind and I can bring it
into a business concept and seewhere dysfunction is happening.
And in part, I was taughthow to think because of a
(31:17):
liberal arts undergrad andthen in grad school, like
literary theory and criticism.
Like you want to like stretchyour mind and try to figure
out, like galvanize what youbelieve and don't believe, like
literary theory and criticismis a great place to do that.
Right?
And then there's somethingabout going back for another
(31:39):
degree that forces youto finish what you start.
It's really hard to accomplishmuch of anything in life
if you give up quickly.
And I made certain commitmentsand then I'm like, Well,
now there's this sunk cost.
I guess I have to finishthis degree, even if I don't
(32:00):
plan to stay in academia,don't plan to teach.
But I'm glad that I finished.
Jesse Butts (32:06):
Do you love your job?
How important do you thinkit is to love one's job?
Austin L. Church (32:13):
I do.
And that love is more or lessintense based on the day.
Generally, I really love whatI do and I'm, I feel very
fortunate to love what I do.
That being said, I thinkit's deeply personal.
I think some peoplefind it easier to
compartmentalize their work.
(32:34):
It's a way to make a living, andthey tolerate some parts of it.
Maybe even enjoy some partsof it, maybe dislike other
parts of it, but they are alot more pragmatic than I am.
And they're like,It's just work.
You work to live, youdon't live to work.
And I've got a job doingthis and it's okay.
(32:56):
And I've learned howto be good at it.
So I think it is, it reallydepends on your personality and
your demeanor, what you wantand expect from your work and
whether or not you even believeit's important to be passionate
about the way you make a living.
Some people, I don't thinkthey really feel the need
(33:16):
to combine where theyhave a lot of intellectual
or creative curiosityand how they make money.
I'm one of those peoplethat I've finally just
reconciled myself to, Ineed to be creatively and
intellectually engaged withthe work that I'm doing.
If I get bored, I'm notpleasant to be around.
Jesse Butts (33:36):
What role does work play in your life in terms of
how much time is devoted to it?
How just in general, big of apart of life is work to you?
Austin L. Church (33:48):
It has become less important, but I would say
that's due in part because I hadan unhealthy attachment to it.
My significance was bound up inmy work for a long, long time.
And if work was going well,I felt great about myself.
(34:12):
If work was not going well,I didn't feel great about
myself, but the truth is ourworth, our significance as human
beings never rises and fallswith performance in a certain
area of life, including work.
Now that said, I believework is an area where we can
(34:36):
find so much joy and meaning.
But it's like anythingelse, family, friendship,
physical health, intimacy,financial affluence.
Like these can be good things,but as soon as you develop an
unhealthy attachment, and all ofyour significance is bound up,
(34:59):
like, How am I doing as a dad?
Oh, my kids are upsetwith me right now.
And that crushes me.
Well, that's unhealthy.
So I've had to sort ofrecalibrate my relationship
with work because I justrealized this is not healthy.
This isn't sustainable.
And I need to be okay withAustin, even if my bank accounts
(35:23):
or my clients or my variousbusiness ventures, don't
seem to signify my success.
Jesse Butts (35:33):
What questions do you think someone who is
wrapping up grad school, maybea few years out and they're
thinking what they studiedmight not be the best way
for them to make a living.
What kind of questions do youthink they should be asking
themselves as they try tonavigate where to go from here?
Austin L (35:53):
Great question, Jesse.
One of the first things thatcomes to mind is like, What
do I not get bored with?
I already kind ofmentioned boredom.
Now, to be clear, if youwant to develop expertise
or mastery in anything, yourtolerance of boredom is going
to be a competitive advantage.
(36:14):
If I can read writingmanuals and enjoy it to
some degree, well no wonderI need to be a writer.
Right?
So that's the first thing.
It's like, where do I havea higher tolerance for
boredom than other people?
And then another thingis, What am I doing when
I lose track of time?
Another thing is reallydigging deep into what
(36:39):
you believe about money.
Because if you start a business,and the goal of the business is
to make money, if you haven'tunpacked your relationship with
money and your beliefs aboutmoney, you will self sabotage.
I've seen it again and againand again, where you were seven
years old, and you heard yourparents have a conversation
(37:04):
about their wealthy friends,and you didn't understand the
content of the conversation.
But you just drew thisassociation, this correlation
between wealth and bad.
You don't realize that thatimpression finds its way
into your operating system.
And then you carry thatinto adulthood and it
never gets questioned.
So I think it's really helpfulcoming outta grad school to
(37:27):
actually understand whatyour relationship with money
is because you need it.
Lots and lots of freelancersand artist friends, and
musician friends, and justpeople I've known would tell
me that money isn't importantto them while having near
constant anxiety about it.
So there's that part ofme, that's like, How's
(37:47):
that working for you?
So I wish someone had put theirarm around me when I was coming
out of my English program and,and just said, Hey, Hey buddy,
do you know what you believeabout money and have you
ever examined the, the truth?
Like are those beliefs true.
Can you find counterexamples?
(38:08):
I know that sounds like a weirdone, but that's just coming
from having coached hundredsof freelancers and I'm like,
It comes up again and againand again, and again and again.
Jesse Butts (38:18):
Along your journey, were there any
books, TED talks, podcasts,anything like that, that you
would recommend as they'reconsidering something new?
Not necessarily in the fieldof copywriting, but just,
examining where to go whenyou're at a crossroads?
Austin L. Church (38:35):
Let's see, there's a book by Parker Palmer
called Let Your Life Speak.
And that's a pretty good one,just about looking back at
patterns in your life that youmay not have noticed before.
And where might theybe pointing you?
The second one I'll share isGive and Take by Adam Grant
(38:55):
made me realize that as longas I can become really good
at recognizing bad actorsin business, he calls 'em
takers, I can continue to bethis sort of person I want
to be in business, which isgenerous and kind and trusting
(39:17):
without having to believethat it's a dog eat dog world.
And certainly without havingto act vicious or ruthless
or constantly self-serving.
Right, so I thought he dida really good job basically
saying, No, like most peoplebelieve in fairness and
(39:40):
reciprocity and the golden rule.
In fact, modern societyfalls apart if too many
people believe otherwise.
Maybe the last one isRange, David Epstein.
And that one really impactedme because he more or less
said, Hey, if you have a lotof interest and you've sampled
a lot of different things, itdoesn't mean you're broken.
(40:01):
It may actually just meanthat you're capable of a
lot of different things.
And some of the people whofinally make a choice in their
40s end up being the trueinnovators in their field.
And I was like, Thank you.
Jesse Butts (40:16):
A Well little affirmation.
If people want to finda little bit more about
you, about Freelance Cake,where, where should they go?
Where can they find you?
Austin L. Church (40:27):
I hang out on LinkedIn quite a bit.
So Austin L.
Church.
I'm the only Austin L.
Church.
I had to use that pretentiousmiddle initial because
of all the churches inAustin, Texas, right?
Jesse Butts (40:40):
Not just because you're a writer?
Austin L. Church (40:42):
Yeah, well, it's so funny.
It was one of the better choicesI made in the early days when
I was setting up profiles.
I'm like, no one'sever gonna find me.
I have to use my middle initial.
And it just turns out, Oh,it's probably a good, wise
choice for a writer too.
I'm on Twitter a little bit.
And then obviouslyFreelanceCake.com.
People can find me there.
Jesse Butts (41:03):
Well, this was a pleasure, Austin.
Thanks so much for joining me.
Austin L. Church (41:06):
Thank you again for the conversation.
I really enjoyed it.
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chattingwith Austin L.
Church, an MA in Englishfrom the University of
Tennessee-Knoxville turned brandstrategist and business coach.
Austin is the founderof several companies.
He helps bootstrapped founderswith their branding and
strategy, along with freelancerson growing their businesses.
(00:46):
He's also writing a bookabout pricing and money
matters for freelancers.
Austin, welcome to the show.
It's a treat to have you on.
Austin L. Church (00:52):
Thank you so much for the invitation.
I'm delighted to be here.
Jesse Butts (00:57):
So before we talk about how you found your
way from English to, to brandstrategy and business coaching,
can you tell us a little bitabout what you're doing now?
I mentioned you, you havesome, several pursuits.
What exactly are youyou doing day to day for
yourself and for clients?
Austin L. Church (01:14):
I would say I divide my time amongst
three primary things.
Number one is writing,always writing.
You mentioned the book.
I do a lot of writingon LinkedIn, a little
bit on Twitter.
The second thing is consulting.
I have a fractional CMOrole that I fill, and then
(01:35):
I do other projects hereand there, mostly branding
strategy, some marketingand messaging thrown in.
And then the thirdthing is Freelance Cake.
It's a media andeducation company.
I have focus on freelancers,cause I've been one
for so long myself.
And a lot of the teachingand training revolves around
(01:57):
what I call advantages,and those are the beliefs
and habits and levers.
I, I group them all kindof under that, that term
advantages, but, how do you getbetter results with less effort,
especially when life is crazy.
My wife and I have three kids.
And so any, any littleadvantage I can get means a
(02:21):
lot just in the day to day.
Not hustle, not grind, butcrush in the day to day crush.
If you can help me get betterresults with less effort,
I will love you forever.
And so that's what I share.
That's what I focus on.
Jesse Butts (02:34):
And, how long have you been solo?
I mean, what, whether it'sfor one or all of those
three things, just curioushow long you've been working
on your own at this point?
Austin L. Church (02:45):
I got pushed forcibly out of the
9 to 5 nest in April 2009.
So we're recording thisAugust 2022, I guess that's
a little over 13 years atthis point, a long time.
Jesse Butts (02:59):
I always like to talk with guests a bit about
what they did in grad school,but first why they pursued it.
What, in particular foryou made you want to go
beyond your undergrad?
Austin L. Church (03:11):
So right after I graduated, I ended up teaching
high school English for a year.
And I thought thatwould be a good fit.
I was teaching fourclasses of juniors, two
classes of freshman.
This was at a small,private Christian high
school in Nashville,Tennessee, where I grew up.
Well, Jesse, I was notthree months in that I
(03:36):
found my first gray hair.
I'm not even joking And I hada little bit of a not crisis,
but it was that moment where itwas early, early in the morning.
And I was like, What's that?
And I'm like tightening myneck tie and thinking, Is this
really what I want to be doing?
I was 23 at the time.
And I decided I needto go take the GRE.
(03:58):
I need to start applyingto grad schools because I,
I don't think this is whatI want to do long term.
I had wonderful highschool teachers.
I think it's a beautifulcalling, but that experience
of being unfulfilled, at leastin the high school context.
Made me reassess that decision.
(04:20):
I finished out theyear, I applied to 12
schools, I got into one.
I was so embarrassed.
Right.
Because when you startapplying, you tell people
that you're applying andthen people follow up later.
They're like, How's it going?
And you're like, Not great.
I keep on getting theserejection letters.
(04:41):
But ultimately I landedin Knoxville, Tennessee,
which was the only placethat would have me.
So, it was, but it ended upbeing like this providential
thing because it was areally good fit for me.
I still live in Knoxville, loveKnoxville and, yeah, wouldn't
have chosen it if there hadbeen other options on the table.
(05:03):
So thankfully, thereweren't, if that makes sense.
Jesse Butts (05:08):
Yeah.
So when you, when you wereapplying, was it, I really
want to study more English?
Or I don't know what to do,but I was good at school,
so let's go back to that?
Versus, applying for otherjobs or, you know, looking
for some other career options?
Austin L. Church (05:23):
I was that self- branded writer slash poet.
That's the only thing I hadever wanted to do consistently.
And I thought, well, this is onething that I could do because
I love reading and writing.
And I did like teaching.
(05:44):
Right.
But I just don't think at23, I was mature enough to
balance the tactical workof, I need to create a lesson
plan every single day forthe better part of 10 months.
I need to figure out somebetter time management.
So I was up againstthat, but also just
(06:05):
this, these loves, right.
So I, I knew that I was not avery good high school English
teacher, but I knew also that Ireally loved the subject matter.
And to some degree I wasright about pursuing writing
because I still love it.
It's still a passion of mine.
And so it's like, when,in doubt, what love do
(06:28):
you expect to not go away?
Pursue that love.
Jesse Butts (06:34):
So were you, studying literature,
creative writing,rhetoric and composition?
Like what was your areaof focus in grad school?
Au (06:42):
Definitely creative writing.
I entered the programas a fiction writer.
I had one or two shortstories, I think that
were passable enough.
I, I know in retrospect that my,my portfolio was really weak.
I mean, it would not havebeen on the academic side.
I was a little bit cocky becauseI had great grades and you know,
(07:04):
I had all the extracurricularsand all that crap.
But I should have, I should havespent a lot more time writing.
I was that kid that spentmore time talking about
writing than actually writing.
And that has flipflopped in my life.
Now I spent a lot moretime writing than I do
talking about it, but,entered as a fiction writer.
(07:24):
Like, and again, Looking backI'm like, what was I thinking?
The very first workshopthat I took was poetry
writing and not fiction.
Like, Why, why are yougonna enter as a fiction
writer and then immediatelytake poetry classes?
So it didn't make sense,but I did write a bunch
of poems that year.
I did end up actually winningthe graduate creative writing
(07:48):
contest for a poem I enteredand ultimately just changed
tracks from fiction to poetryand finished out the degree
with a thesis of my poemsrather than short stories.
Yeah, I can't say that mychoices made a whole lot
of sense in the order thatI made them, but yeah, I
(08:11):
guess hindsight is 20-20.
Jesse Butts (08:14):
So Austin, what were you planning on...
what did you end updoing after grad school?
Austin L. Church (08:21):
I didn't really have a plan.
A lot of my decisionslooking back, again,
what were you thinking?
I, right after gradschool, went out west,
did a bunch of fishing,goofed off with friends.
Came back early fall with noprospects and ended up getting
a job through an introduction bya friend at a marketing agency.
(08:46):
I had no marketing background.
The portfolio I tookin was a collection of
poems and vignettes andlittle bits and pieces.
I mean, who knows?
I still kind of can'tbelieve that that owner
offered me the job.
He and I have remainedin touch all these years.
(09:07):
But got a job and suddenlyI'm in the marketing world.
Jesse Butts (09:13):
What are you doing in that job?
How long are you at it?
Austin L. Church (09:16):
So I was a copywriter and then a
social media strategist,which sounds really cool.
But the only reason thatrole fell to me was I was the
youngest person on the team.
And the only person whohad a Facebook profile.
Jesse Butts (09:30):
And this was when, like, like roughly?
Austin L. (09:33):
This is October 2008.
Jesse Butts (09:35):
Okay.
Facebook's open to the public,but it's still pretty youth
oriented at that point.
Austin L. Church (09:40):
Exactly.
And so I'm like, I'm like, Wait,you're gonna like position me
as a social media strategistwhen we talk to clients?
I don't know anythingabout, I mean, I'm still
figuring it out myself.
They're like, Well, you knowmore than the rest of us.
And you'll certainly knowmore than our clients.
I'm like, whatever.
(10:01):
And you know, maybe that wasa good sort of baptism by
fire because it's true abouta lot of things where if you
were one lesson ahead whenyou were teaching Romeo and
Juliet, you are the expert.
If you are one lesson aheadwith social media strategy,
that makes you the expert.
Jesse Butts (10:21):
Can you tell us just kind of like
what the day to day was?
And, and what happenedafter, or leading up to
you going out on your own?
Austin L. Chu (10:29):
So I wrote a lot.
I wrote web content.
We would get a client thatwas building a new website or,
you know, updating an old one.
And I would write the wordsthat go on the web pages.
And I was writing copy.
And you can think about thedifference between content
(10:50):
as being, you know, contentis meant to educate or inform
or entertain or inspire.
Copy is meant topersuade and sell.
And believe it or not,creative writing and poetry
in particular was a prettygood entree into copywriting
because in poetry, we talkedabout the economy of language.
(11:13):
Like, how much cargois each word carrying?
The more you can pack in,the more meaning you can
pack in, generally thebetter the poem is, right?
And the same istrue of copywriting.
Whether it's a headlineor a call to action, all
the discrete pieces needto carry their weight.
Carry their share of the load.
(11:33):
So I was writing copy forprint ads, for billboards, for
radio spots, for televisioncommercials, for email
newsletters, for just abouteverything that you can imagine.
And again, Kind of makingit up as I went, because
I don't know anything.
(11:53):
I, I'm, I'm totallygreen, you know?
So half the time I'm signed upby either the principal at the
agency or the creative directorfor a specific project, and then
I'm off to the side, Googlingthings, being like, All right,
what does this even mean?
Like, what am Ieven supposed to do?
So, that's how I spent my days.
(12:15):
Oh, I should also mention beingthe social media strategist, I
was writing a bunch of socialcontent, Facebook posts,
tweets, all that kind of thing.
So, I got laid offafter six months during
The Great Recessionwhen the economy tanked.
But in that six month period,I, I got a ton of experience.
(12:38):
I had to learn all thesedifferent mediums or media,
all these different formats.
Also had to learn that likeall of the rules, whether it
was a particular style guide,like MLA, everything that
I learned about the Englishlanguage and about writing
(12:59):
in grad school got blown up.
Like in the first three weeks,because yes, you can end
sentences with prepositions.
And yes, you can startthem with conjunctions.
Like all that stuffthat I learned.
That's like, oh no, no, no.
Here are the boundarieswe don't cross.
It's like in the world ofadvertising, if it works, do it.
Jesse Butts (13:23):
And I, I can really empathize.
I was, , a victim of a GreatR ecession layoff as well.
So, so we know that you wentsolo, but what was that process?
I mean, did you decide, This ismy time to strike it on my own?
Or, I'll do the freelancething until something opens up?
What were you thinkingat that point?
Austin L. Chur (13:42):
I was terrified.
I felt like an idiot becauseI hadn't saved money.
I had $486 in mychecking account.
So I woke up on a Monday,broke with no prospects and
terrified because I didn'thave this safety net.
(14:03):
Yeah, I could have called myparents and asked them for
money, but I would've foundthat really embarrassing.
Freelancing was thekind of the only option.
One, because I had enoughwherewithal, enough perspective
to realize if I just lostmy job, this type of job is
(14:26):
in short supply right now.
So I could go outand try to find a job
similar to the one I had.
But why would my fate therebe any different really?
So that was the first thing.
And then the second thing was,I didn't have lots of expenses.
I was, I needed $1,100a month at the time.
(14:49):
So I thought, Okay, I haveno idea what I'm doing.
The, the, the one thing thathappened that Monday, or maybe
it was Tuesday, I'd have togo back and look at the email
train, my old boss called me.
Like the guy who had beenmy boss three days before.
And it was the funniestconversation because he
was like, Hey, you probablyweren't expecting to hear
(15:11):
from me so soon, but we can'tactually finish any of the
projects you're working on.
What is your freelance rate?
And I'm sure I was like,Hmm, let me think about that.
And then, like I said,Googling on the side, What
is a freelance rate?
I don't know what we'retalking about here.
(15:31):
But I knew that they billedout my time at $85 an hour.
I just said, Howabout $40 an hour?
Cause I'm thinking atleast that leaves a little
meat on the bone for him.
And he said, Yes.
And so my very first freelanceclient was the agency where
I had worked and my firstfreelance projects were
the exact same projects Ihad been working on before.
(15:53):
And so that, I guess did giveme something of a cushion.
It wasn't great money.
In fact, I learned very quicklythat the hourly model penalizes
speed, efficiency, expertise.
The faster you work,the less you make.
But I am very thankfulthat I got a client.
(16:16):
And then, , the other thingI did was just start going
to entrepeneur events.
More or less just tellingpeople I'm available for hire.
And I will not be picky.
Like I , I wrote so many things.
I had so many boringprojects, but that's kind
of, kind of how it allstarted after I got laid off.
Jesse Butts (16:38):
When did the evolution from gun for
hire, anything anywhere,to consulting with branding
and coaching others...
not just when did that happen?
But what was thattransition like?
How many, you know, how, howlong of a process was that?
Austin L. Church (17:00):
That's a really good question.
I mean, you touchedon something...
There was a big paradigmshift there, right?
From feeling like I wasan artist adrift in the
business world to feelinglike an entrepreneur
who happened to sell hiscreativity or creative skills.
I think the paradigm shiftstarted to happen fairly early.
(17:23):
There were two veryspecific experiences.
One happened within twoweeks after I got laid off.
A friend of mine, a guyI went to church with,
introduced me to anotheragency owner who he thought
might have some work for me.
That guy's nameis Andrew Gordon.
(17:44):
I will eternally begrateful for him.
He didn't realize he wasmentoring me that day,
but that's sort of the,the punchline is that the
shift accelerated in me inpart because of mentors.
People who just knew a lotmore than I did, but we
had a conversation and heasked me what I charge?
(18:06):
And I quoted him the same $40 anhour I had quoted my old boss.
When he said, Do you mindif I give you some advice?
And, you know, anytime someoneasks permission to give
you advice, they have thetype of maturity that makes
the advice that's about tofollow really freaking good.
Right?
Anyway, I am sitting thereand he basically said, I would
(18:31):
raise your rates to at least $75an hour effective immediately
because you're pretty good.
Despite your lack of experience,you've gotten good quickly.
And you will not be takenseriously in larger markets like
Charlotte and Atlanta and DC.
You can compete with thosecopywriters, skill wise talent
(18:53):
wise, but you won't evenget the conversation if your
price is signal that you'reinexperience or you lack
confidence or you're maybeeven unprofessional because
you charge so little, right?
And I'm like, like noone had ever said that
pricing is branding.
(19:15):
That pricing is positioning.
Right?
Because my reasoning was, Well,if I charge 40 an hour and
people are accustomed to payinga lot more, then they'll say,
Great, then I'll get twice asmuch work for the same price.
Right?
Whereas other people are like,You get what you pay for.
So if it's cheap, it's probablynot gonna be very good.
(19:36):
So mentorship reallyhelped spark that
paradigm shift early on.
And the second thing, I'lljust call pattern matching.
And I had no businessbackground, no marketing
background before the agency.
But that didn'tmean I was stupid.
It just meant thatI was inexperienced.
(19:57):
Like I've always beena pretty fast learner.
And I'm pretty goodat noticing things.
And what I noticed earlyon is that people who
ended up being really goodclients would communicate
with me in a certain way.
They would say certainthings or they wouldn't
say certain things.
(20:18):
And, you know, the inversewas true that the people
who ended up being verydifficult down the road.
Well, when we were firststarting the first project,
they would say things like,Well, if you give me a
discount, now I can send youa lot of work in the future.
. Or, they would stroke my ego.
They'd say, Oh, I can tellthat you're really smart.
(20:40):
So why don't you....
And, again, when somebody givesyou an unqualified compliment,
they didn't know me well enoughto say some of this stuff.
I just began to piecethings together.
These patterns emerged.
And so over time I was ableto like become a little bit
more sophisticated in howI was running the business.
(21:02):
In part, because I gotmy teeth kicked in.
And, you know, you have apainful lesson and ideally you
squeeze as much learning asmuch insight as much wisdom
out of that as you can.
So as time went on, eventhough I was pretty lean in
the experience and expertiserealm, I, I learned through
(21:26):
that school of hard knocks,getting my teeth kicked in.
And eventually I'm like, Wait,I started about the same time
as some other people who werefreelancing, either designers or
photographers, writers like me.
I've been able togrow my income.
I've been able to attracthigher caliber clients.
(21:47):
And they still seem to bestruggling with some of the
same problems that I solved.
Even that sort of contrast, noteven that I was like trying to
cast myself in a favorable lightas much as it's like, Okay,
but what did I do differently?
You know, after a while you'rejust connecting the dots.
You're like, Oh, maybe Iactually have a knack for
(22:07):
this, even though for thelongest time, I thought,
Well, I'm just a poet.
Or I'm just a writer.
But eventually I woke up andI was like, I, I think I kind
of have a knack for this.
Jesse Butts (22:17):
You're doing a lot of writing now, whether
it's for your own social mediaor projects or doing some
consulting and you also haveFreelance Cake, the business
that helps with coaching.
How long have you been...
is trifurcating a word?
But how have you beenin this, this lane?
Austin L. Church (22:37):
I, and this is not a good trait, I am
chronically overcommitted.
And believe it or not,only having three things
going on is an improvement.
I have always, I first heard aguy named Darren Rowse use this
term, I've always struggledwith being multi-passionate.
He calls itmulti-passionate disorder.
(22:58):
I've always suffered frommulti passionate disorder.
I mean even like, what was it?
2011?
2011, I started developingmy first iOS app.
And then in 2013 I coco-founded and invested
in a music tech startup.
And then in 2018, Istarted my own branding
(23:22):
and marketing studio.
2018.
I also published a children'sbook and so I've always
had too much going on.
I turned 40 back in Apriland I'm like, there there's
always been that voicein my head that's like,
What's wrong with me?
Like, why can't I just pick onething and just stick with it?
(23:43):
Well, there are a numberof reasons for that, but
being trifurcated is partlyjust, I, I have a lot of
wide ranging interest.
And then also I joke thatart and commerce in me are
these two dragons that arelocked in mortal combat.
(24:04):
I will always love craft.
I will always lovethe sandbox of words.
And I even wrote this one blogpost about I was writing and I'm
like, do I pick the word dearth?
Or do I pick the word shortage?
I prefer the word dearth.
But more people knowthe word shortage.
Right?
(24:25):
So there's the craftsmanin me that just wants to
be a little bit esoteric, alittle bit obscure sometimes.
But then there's that morepractical side of me that's
like, I also need to get paid.
And so that's, that's how Iwould explain being trifurcated
is I'm constantly trying toreconcile this ambition to
(24:50):
build something and FreelanceCake is that ambition.
I want to pay it forward andhelp a lot of artists build
a profitable, sustainablebusiness around the work
that doesn't feel like work.
Around the work they love thework that brings them joy.
You know, and I'd love to havelove to scale up my impact using
(25:12):
that education company, right?
But meanwhile, I'vegotta get paid because I
support a family of five.
And so consultingpays the bills.
And even though I do a lotof coaching with Freelance
Cake, it still hasn't beenenough to entirely replace
(25:32):
my consulting income.
But then the writing is like,well, that's just my first love.
So I always want to be writing.
Does the writing feedthe other things?
Of course, but I know that'sprobably an unsatisfying
answer for anyone who mightlisten, like, Oh, like you
do three things because youhaven't figured out what
it is you really want to do?
(25:53):
And also haven't figured outhow to get paid for that?
I'm like, Yes.
like, haven't gotten, haven'tgotten it all figured out yet.
Sorry.
Jesse Butts (26:01):
But I think it's really helpful too, to hear
that, while you're presentingit, as you haven't figured
it out, you have found somethings that are, that you love
and you're making money withversus a hundred percent
doing something you're not thatinto, but you feel trapped.
Austin L. Church (26:17):
That's right.
And there are a number of peoplewho've said this different ways.
Tom Bilyeu, I heardhim speak at an event.
He said, and I'llparaphrase, You're always
gonna have problems.
So pick the path that has theproblems you actually want.
That really resonated with mebecause being a solopreneur
(26:38):
brings all sorts of problems.
Having a nine to five jobbrings all sorts of problems.
It just comes down to,well, which set of problems
does you, does you...
which set ofproblems do you want?
Because you're alwaysgoing to have them.
Jesse Butts (26:56):
What do you find most enjoyable about your work?
Austin L. Church (27:01):
I love it when I'm coaching a consultant or a
freelancer or an agency owner,and I get an email like her name
is Kelly and she emailed me andshe said, I can't believe it.
I had talked her throughhow to raise her prices
(27:23):
with her main client.
And when it worked andshe got a 33% raise just
with that one client, justfor having the courage to
start the conversation,like the excitement and
the hope and the confidencethat she had, I love that.
Because I know whatit's like to be broke.
(27:46):
I know what it's like tobe paralyzed with anxiety
because you're like, Where'sthe money gonna come from?
And to be able to come alongsidemy people and be a source of
encouragement and to be salt andlight and to, to give them those
levers that I've talked about,beliefs, habits, principles, and
(28:10):
to point them at those things,which will, will be evergreen
and will stand the test of time.
I also just lovesolving problems.
So that's theconsulting side, right?
Like to understand a system, topull it apart and understand
(28:30):
its constituent parts, butthen to say, How do we put this
back together and make it work?
I'm kind of obsessedwith business.
But I would approach it thesame way I might approach
like understanding a workof literature, right?
More like understandingthemes rather than thinking
about it like a machine.
I, I enjoy serving consultingclients in the same way.
(28:54):
How can this brand do a betterjob at creating meaning and
making people's lives better?
Or how can this founder, whois really passionate, fully
communicate why she got intothis in the first place?
(29:14):
Right?
So I like helping peoplereconnect with their passion.
if I'm honest, , I also likehelping people make more money.
Because most of the people thatI work with, it has nothing
to do with buying stuff, andit has everything to do with
like all the cool things theywant to do with money to make
(29:36):
the world a better place.
Some of them justneed a great car.
That's true.
But some, like, I just, whenI ask, What would you do
if you made twice as much?
You would not believe howbeautiful the answers are.
Oh, I would take my grandmotherto Japan to visit her
sister who she hasn't seenface to face in 20 years.
(30:00):
True story.
And I'm like, Oh my goodness.
We've gotta make that happen.
It's paying it forward andit's reconnecting people
with their passion and it'ssolving problems and it's
waking people up to thepossibilities in their lives.
Jesse Butts (30:15):
I'm curious if there are any other
skills that you picked up ingrad school that you know,
unexpectedly, serendipitouslyhave helped you in your career?
Austin L. Church (30:25):
Yes.
I learned how to think.
And I still hear from timeto time, someone crack a joke
about a liberal arts degreeor degree in literature.
And they're like, How'sthat working for you?
And inevitably, these are peoplewho either chose a profession
like accounting or engineering,or it's people who don't see
(30:51):
the connection between thinkingand communication and business.
But I realized that God gave mea good mind and I can bring it
into a business concept and seewhere dysfunction is happening.
And in part, I was taughthow to think because of a
(31:17):
liberal arts undergrad andthen in grad school, like
literary theory and criticism.
Like you want to like stretchyour mind and try to figure
out, like galvanize what youbelieve and don't believe, like
literary theory and criticismis a great place to do that.
Right?
And then there's somethingabout going back for another
(31:39):
degree that forces youto finish what you start.
It's really hard to accomplishmuch of anything in life
if you give up quickly.
And I made certain commitmentsand then I'm like, Well,
now there's this sunk cost.
I guess I have to finishthis degree, even if I don't
(32:00):
plan to stay in academia,don't plan to teach.
But I'm glad that I finished.
Jesse Butts (32:06):
Do you love your job?
How important do you thinkit is to love one's job?
Austin L. Church (32:13):
I do.
And that love is more or lessintense based on the day.
Generally, I really love whatI do and I'm, I feel very
fortunate to love what I do.
That being said, I thinkit's deeply personal.
I think some peoplefind it easier to
compartmentalize their work.
(32:34):
It's a way to make a living, andthey tolerate some parts of it.
Maybe even enjoy some partsof it, maybe dislike other
parts of it, but they are alot more pragmatic than I am.
And they're like,It's just work.
You work to live, youdon't live to work.
And I've got a job doingthis and it's okay.
(32:56):
And I've learned howto be good at it.
So I think it is, it reallydepends on your personality and
your demeanor, what you wantand expect from your work and
whether or not you even believeit's important to be passionate
about the way you make a living.
Some people, I don't thinkthey really feel the need
(33:16):
to combine where theyhave a lot of intellectual
or creative curiosityand how they make money.
I'm one of those peoplethat I've finally just
reconciled myself to, Ineed to be creatively and
intellectually engaged withthe work that I'm doing.
If I get bored, I'm notpleasant to be around.
Jesse Butts (33:36):
What role does work play in your life in terms of
how much time is devoted to it?
How just in general, big of apart of life is work to you?
Austin L. Church (33:48):
It has become less important, but I would say
that's due in part because I hadan unhealthy attachment to it.
My significance was bound up inmy work for a long, long time.
And if work was going well,I felt great about myself.
(34:12):
If work was not going well,I didn't feel great about
myself, but the truth is ourworth, our significance as human
beings never rises and fallswith performance in a certain
area of life, including work.
Now that said, I believework is an area where we can
(34:36):
find so much joy and meaning.
But it's like anythingelse, family, friendship,
physical health, intimacy,financial affluence.
Like these can be good things,but as soon as you develop an
unhealthy attachment, and all ofyour significance is bound up,
(34:59):
like, How am I doing as a dad?
Oh, my kids are upsetwith me right now.
And that crushes me.
Well, that's unhealthy.
So I've had to sort ofrecalibrate my relationship
with work because I justrealized this is not healthy.
This isn't sustainable.
And I need to be okay withAustin, even if my bank accounts
(35:23):
or my clients or my variousbusiness ventures, don't
seem to signify my success.
Jesse Butts (35:33):
What questions do you think someone who is
wrapping up grad school, maybea few years out and they're
thinking what they studiedmight not be the best way
for them to make a living.
What kind of questions do youthink they should be asking
themselves as they try tonavigate where to go from here?
Austin L (35:53):
Great question, Jesse.
One of the first things thatcomes to mind is like, What
do I not get bored with?
I already kind ofmentioned boredom.
Now, to be clear, if youwant to develop expertise
or mastery in anything, yourtolerance of boredom is going
to be a competitive advantage.
(36:14):
If I can read writingmanuals and enjoy it to
some degree, well no wonderI need to be a writer.
Right?
So that's the first thing.
It's like, where do I havea higher tolerance for
boredom than other people?
And then another thingis, What am I doing when
I lose track of time?
Another thing is reallydigging deep into what
(36:39):
you believe about money.
Because if you start a business,and the goal of the business is
to make money, if you haven'tunpacked your relationship with
money and your beliefs aboutmoney, you will self sabotage.
I've seen it again and againand again, where you were seven
years old, and you heard yourparents have a conversation
(37:04):
about their wealthy friends,and you didn't understand the
content of the conversation.
But you just drew thisassociation, this correlation
between wealth and bad.
You don't realize that thatimpression finds its way
into your operating system.
And then you carry thatinto adulthood and it
never gets questioned.
So I think it's really helpfulcoming outta grad school to
(37:27):
actually understand whatyour relationship with money
is because you need it.
Lots and lots of freelancersand artist friends, and
musician friends, and justpeople I've known would tell
me that money isn't importantto them while having near
constant anxiety about it.
So there's that part ofme, that's like, How's
(37:47):
that working for you?
So I wish someone had put theirarm around me when I was coming
out of my English program and,and just said, Hey, Hey buddy,
do you know what you believeabout money and have you
ever examined the, the truth?
Like are those beliefs true.
Can you find counterexamples?
(38:08):
I know that sounds like a weirdone, but that's just coming
from having coached hundredsof freelancers and I'm like,
It comes up again and againand again, and again and again.
Jesse Butts (38:18):
Along your journey, were there any
books, TED talks, podcasts,anything like that, that you
would recommend as they'reconsidering something new?
Not necessarily in the fieldof copywriting, but just,
examining where to go whenyou're at a crossroads?
Austin L. Church (38:35):
Let's see, there's a book by Parker Palmer
called Let Your Life Speak.
And that's a pretty good one,just about looking back at
patterns in your life that youmay not have noticed before.
And where might theybe pointing you?
The second one I'll share isGive and Take by Adam Grant
(38:55):
made me realize that as longas I can become really good
at recognizing bad actorsin business, he calls 'em
takers, I can continue to bethis sort of person I want
to be in business, which isgenerous and kind and trusting
(39:17):
without having to believethat it's a dog eat dog world.
And certainly without havingto act vicious or ruthless
or constantly self-serving.
Right, so I thought he dida really good job basically
saying, No, like most peoplebelieve in fairness and
(39:40):
reciprocity and the golden rule.
In fact, modern societyfalls apart if too many
people believe otherwise.
Maybe the last one isRange, David Epstein.
And that one really impactedme because he more or less
said, Hey, if you have a lotof interest and you've sampled
a lot of different things, itdoesn't mean you're broken.
(40:01):
It may actually just meanthat you're capable of a
lot of different things.
And some of the people whofinally make a choice in their
40s end up being the trueinnovators in their field.
And I was like, Thank you.
Jesse Butts (40:16):
A Well little affirmation.
If people want to finda little bit more about
you, about Freelance Cake,where, where should they go?
Where can they find you?
Austin L. Church (40:27):
I hang out on LinkedIn quite a bit.
So Austin L.
Church.
I'm the only Austin L.
Church.
I had to use that pretentiousmiddle initial because
of all the churches inAustin, Texas, right?
Jesse Butts (40:40):
Not just because you're a writer?
Austin L. Church (40:42):
Yeah, well, it's so funny.
It was one of the better choicesI made in the early days when
I was setting up profiles.
I'm like, no one'sever gonna find me.
I have to use my middle initial.
And it just turns out, Oh,it's probably a good, wise
choice for a writer too.
I'm on Twitter a little bit.
And then obviouslyFreelanceCake.com.
People can find me there.
Jesse Butts (41:03):
Well, this was a pleasure, Austin.
Thanks so much for joining me.
Austin L. Church (41:06):
Thank you again for the conversation.
I really enjoyed it.
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