October 5, 2022 • 38 mins
Judith finished grad school with a passion for increasing student retention. As she spent more time — and moved up the ladder — in higher ed administration, she became equally committed to expanding access.
And she did, indeed, make retention and access top priorities in positions across student affairs, development, and international education. But what appeared to be a perfect career progression on paper was not in practice.
That’s when Judith, for the first time, looked beyond the ivory tower for work. Within a few years in finance, she had the opportunity to transfer to investment banking, where she now relishes the quick pace of change and ability to solve complex problems.
Had she not taken the time to question what she valued in her work, Judith may have never considered if careers outside of higher ed could be a better fit.
Books & other resources mentioned
What Should I Do with My Life? by Po Bronson
The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesse Butts (00:23):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting withJudith Lagrou, a master's in
higher ed from Harvard turnedinvestment banking strategist.
Judith is now an associateat a major Wall Street firm.
Judith, welcome to the show.
Thanks for joining me.
Judith Lagrou (00:40):
Thank you so much for having me, Jesse.
Jesse Butts (00:42):
Absolutely.
So pretty interesting changein career here, but before
we chat about how you foundyour way from higher ed
administration to Wall Street,can you tell us just a little
bit about what you're doing now?
Like what exactly doesinvestment banking
strategy involve?
Judith Lagrou (01:00):
Sure.
Investment banking strategyfor me involves working with
bankers, sales people, andtraders to get a sense of what
investors will be interestedin a particular bond issue.
So that involves not onlyknowing the bond really well
and the market that it'sbeing sort of sold in, but
also knowing the market well.
Jesse Butts (01:20):
I've heard the term bond a million times.
I think I kind of 60% knowwhat it is, but could you give
us just a very high overviewof that for maybe some of us
who really have been faking itfor a lot of years, thinking
what they know bonds are.
Judith Lagrou (01:34):
I am happy to do that.
So a bond is essentiallywhen an entity, so it could
be a company like Coca-Cola,it could be a state or a
city like New York, Chicago,San Francisco, California.
They want to get funding,and they don't have the
money, for example, tomaybe build a new plant
(01:55):
or fix a certain toll road.
And so a bond is what allowsany of these entities to
basically get money lentto them by investors.
So they go out into the marketand they sell these bonds.
And in that way they get sort ofmore liquid money so that they
can use for various projects.
Jesse Butts (02:14):
So now that we can all speak intelligently
about bonds, thanks toyou, I'm curious if we
can go back a little.
Why did you decideto go to grad school?
Like what made you interestedin pursuing a degree
in the administrativeside of higher ed?
Judith Lagrou (02:28):
I ask myself that question quite a bit.
But I will say that, There aretwo answers to that question.
There's the, I was workingin higher ed and I wanted
to learn more about it.
That's one answer.
And I'd say the second answerwas I was young, and I wanted
to go to grad school, and Ididn't know what to do it in.
After undergrad, I reallythought my life would
(02:51):
take a different path.
I thought I was goingto move overseas and
teach English actually.
And when I decided to not dothat, , I basically just...
I wouldn't say I got coldfeet, but I more or less sort
of looked around and said,This doesn't feel right.
I'm going to try something else.
The first thing that came to mymind was to work within higher
(03:13):
ed because I was comfortablewith it and I, you know, was
interested in, in learning.
Just...
I don't know.
I would say I was reallyinterested in being on
a college campus for alittle bit more time.
And so while I was working atmy first job, which was at Duke
University in North Carolina.
I did a lot of work withsetting up and not really
setting up, but I'd say,maintaining and running the
(03:35):
pre-health advising program.
So while I was doing thatwork, I thought more deeply
about issues around retention.
And in that line of thinking,I thought, Well, I'm not sure
if I'm going to be able to doanything from where I'm sitting
here in an administrative job.
And so I started to thinkabout what applying to a
master's degree program andgetting a very good sense of
(03:58):
what factors were at play.
And what I could do toimprove retention rates in my
own career would look like.
Jesse Butts (04:04):
Was there a gap between your
undergrad and grad school?
Judith Lagrou (04:08):
There was.
I worked for two years.
And that's when I was at Duke.
Jesse Butts (04:11):
When you were in the program, what kind of
classes prepare you to focuson things like retention rates,
that you know, you mentionedreally piqued your curiosity?
Judith Lagrou (04:22):
That's a great question.
And as well as I can remember,I will, I'll give some
examples of classes I took.
I certainly took classesthat had to do with
race and education.
So I took one class aboutsort of the Supreme Court,
and its various decisionsthat had to do with school
choice, desegregation,anything that involved race
in education and the SupremeCourt, I took a class on.
(04:44):
It was a wonderful class.
I also took a course on theeconomics of higher education.
So understanding financial aid,student loans, everything that
goes into sort of how tuitionis calculated and decided.
And then I also took a studentdevelopment theory course.
(05:04):
So that student developmenttheory course really exposed
me to the number of differenttheories that really impact
young adults and how theirbrains develop and how
their cognition developsin their college years.
So that really helped meunderstand where students
were in terms of their ownpersonal development and
how to meet them there asa higher ed professional.
Jesse Butts (05:26):
So as you were getting near the end or at
graduation, were you stillfeeling pretty excited
about a career in higher ed?
Were you starting to, tosecond guess a career path?
Judith Lagrou (05:39):
By the time I graduated, I was fully
drinking the Kool-Aid.
I was certainly veryexcited about, starting
my career in higher ed.
I, before I graduated, had ajob offer in California, where
I eventually went to go work.
So I became a communitydirector at Cal State
Northridge and had that joboffer by the time I graduated.
(06:00):
So I knew when I was walkingacross the stage to get
my diploma, that I wascontinuing that work of
encouraging student retention.
Jesse Butts (06:10):
What were you doing in, you know, maybe
some of your first jobsright after grad school?
Judith Lagrou (06:16):
Sure.
So at Cal State Northridge,I was a community director
within, it was sort of theumbrella of student affairs.
And then a smaller sort offunnel into sort of student
housing and residential life.
So as a community director, Ilived on campus and primarily my
work was working with studentswho chose to live on campus.
(06:38):
But there was an aspect ofmy work as well that really
sort of sought to drivestudent retention and, and
think really criticallyabout how to increase it.
So ways in which I did thatwas being sort of the advisor
of the honors college.
Ways in which I did that wasmeeting one on one with students
who were on academic probationand really understanding where
(07:00):
they were coming from andreally allowing my connections
within housing and residentiallife to improve sort of the,
the quality of life of thosestudents who were struggling.
I also supervised sort of myteam of, of resident advisors
and planned events with them.
So really engendering aspirit of community within
(07:20):
the housing, residentiallife sort of arena was
certainly my bread and butter.
But it definitely extended outto, as I'd mentioned, sort of
the honors college and meetingwith students who were sort of
on academic probation as well.
Jesse Butts (07:36):
Had you kind of developed what you thought
was kind of an ideal job trackwhere you could just keep on
getting deeper and deeper intomaking positive contributions
to retention rates?
I know that, you know,you've worked for a number
of institutions before youmade the leap to Wall Street.
Just kind of curiousabout that progression.
Judith Lagrou (07:55):
So I think at Cal State Northridge,
although, you know, the jobwas very, very, I would say
character defining for me.
Cal State Northridge wasthe first place where I
had training with respectto privilege, social
justice, race, everything.
(08:15):
I think when people sort of talkabout diversity training, it,
it can get kind of mired in alot of, I would say, Ooh, it,
it can get kind of complicated.
And by complicated I mean, itcan be divisive, not in the
way that, Oh, by bringing uprace we're causing a fight.
No, but I think it...
sometimes diversity trainingcan come in and say, Well,
(08:37):
how do we make the leastamount of people upset?
And at Cal State Northridge,I really had this experience
where I really understood thatthey were bigger powers at
play with respect to retention.
So, I don't know.
I think that made me a bitjaded to be perfectly frank.
So I really kind of felt alittle lost at that point.
(08:58):
And I decided that I didn'twant to sort of work in
student affairs anymore.
And instead I, I felt the needto really dive more deeply
into improving my writingand my communication skills.
And so at that point,I was able to land a
position at the Universityof Chicago law school.
(09:18):
And that is when I picked upeverything and moved to Chicago
and worked in development,which was wildly different
from the world I had left.
At the University ofChicago, I primarily wrote.
I was the assistantdirector of alumni
relations and stewardship.
So basically that meant that ifsomebody gave money to the law
school , I was the person whowas writing reports in which
(09:43):
I maybe interviewed a facultymember who had received funding
from a certain scholarship,or not scholarship, but from a
certain donation that was given.
I was, planning Thankathonevents with current students
where they would writethank you cards to donors.
So from thatexperience it was...
it went from student retentionto, gosh, I really should
(10:05):
think about this more deeply interms of what that had to do.
For me, it was more about,What are ways in which we
can, I don't know, think,think differently about
the goings on of higher ed.
I think for me it was morelike a focus on me at that
point, but I don't think I everforgot about retention per se.
(10:28):
I think it was more like,What are ways in which we
can really think about whatit takes for students to
be here in the first place.
And that, that was a, areally unorthodox turn in
my career, I would say.
Jesse Butts (10:41):
In terms of people from your cohort
didn't take that path?
Or it felt like to youpersonally, that was like a
180 in kind of ....drive maybe might be the right word?
Judith Lagrou (10:51):
You know, looking back, it was
a, a really big 180.
I think the part of it thatI liked the most, the part
of my role at the Universityof Chicago that I liked
the most was of course,working with students and
really understanding ort ofthe goings on of a school,
like a professional schooland understanding how that
entity works to expandaccess to that school.
(11:15):
So what are ways in whichthey really tell the story
of what it takes for morestudents to become lawyers?
And what are ways in whichI could support that effort?
So in my mind, I thinkit went from retention
to expanding access inthat move in particular.
Jesse Butts (11:32):
How long were you doing that?
And was this kind ofnearing a point where you
were questioning a careerin higher ed in general?
Judith Lagrou (11:40):
Oh, Jesse, I really wish that I was
questioning it at that point,but I was really still, I
was really still drinkingthe Kool-Aid at that point.
I was at the Universityof Chicago for a
little over two years.
And then after that, I tooka little bit of a break.
And I think now that I lookback on it and I'm like,
Of course I was burnt out.
(12:00):
I think that, like, I sortof had a sense of what I
went into higher ed to do.
And suddenly I was in, I wasat a professional school doing
similar work, but perhapsnot feeling as in touch with
this idea of retention that Imaybe started higher ed with.
And so at that point,funny enough, I started
to study improv.
(12:23):
So at the time I was atUniversity of Chicago, I
applied to and received ascholarship to teach yoga.
And while teaching yogain Chicago, again, this
is my hobby, thinking,Okay, there's a big improv
sort of community here.
Why don't I try todo improv as a way to
improve my yoga teaching?
And I started to doimprov and it became a
(12:43):
way for me to more deeplyunderstand my creative self.
And I think that is actuallywhat got me to start
thinking about my careera bit differently, Being
creative, being innovativewas something that perked
up to me as, something thatperhaps I could think about
doing in my own career.
I would say after the Universityof Chicago, that's when I
(13:05):
started to think about it.
But I continued on ineducation, eventually landing
at Northwestern University,where I worked as the assistant
registrar and coordinator ofthe visiting students program
at their medical school.
And so similarly I was sort ofworking within administration
(13:26):
again, working with students,working to expand access.
The visiting students programwas for students from all
over the world to come toNorthwestern and study sort
of an area of medicine thatthey couldn't study anywhere
else, or they felt likeNorthwestern was a, a leader in.
So again, here I was sort ofexpanding access in higher ed.
Jesse Butts (13:48):
If someone told me that retention or you
know, expanding access werereally big drivers for them,
really important to them, Iwould think, Oh, you know,
registrar's office, thatmight not be the pinnacle, but
that seems like, you know, agreat place to be doing that,
be learning, before maybebecoming like a vice president
(14:09):
of advancement or enrollmentor, or something like that.
But it sounds like maybe,maybe on paper that,
that all sounded great.
But perhaps in real life,it, just wasn't, aligning
to, to what you were thinking?
Judith La (14:23):
You're exactly right.
And I think that's onething that I have learned
over the years that I thinkthat a position can look
one way on paper, but whenyou're sitting in that, in
that seat, it can reallymanifest quite differently.
And I think in the, in my lasttwo roles in higher ed, I,
I really saw that I learnedit the hard way so to speak.
(14:43):
Not to say that I didn't learnsomething from both of those
roles, but I think that as Istarted to move further away
from this original concept of,of student retention, I started
to sort of see that perhapsa different industry held
what I was truly looking for.
(15:03):
And that happened aftermy time at Northwestern.
And it was a really interestingsort of job search period
after leaving Northwestern.
I was sort of applying to amix of positions and quite
frankly, looking back at thattime, this was a circa 2018.
Around that time I knew Iwanted to be challenged.
I, I looked back on my careerand I saw that a lot of
(15:25):
positions I had, not onlywas I interested in this
concept of sort of workingdirectly with students and
working to sort of increaseengagement and retention.
But I also saw that I was reallybig on giving myself challenges.
So I was often makingprocesses more efficient.
I was often really looking atways in which I could innovate
(15:48):
and create and strategize.
And so I reallyjust was quite open.
Yes, I was thinkingabout vice president and
assistant dean roles atthat time, but I came across
this listing for a startupin Chicago called Aeropay.
And I applied, I interviewedand they wanted to bring
(16:11):
somebody in to develop theircustomer success program.
So it was an earlystage startup.
And while I sort of looked atit like, Wow, what a, what a
different sort of shift fromall the work I'd been doing.
I was very excited aboutit and I maintained that
excitement through the role.
The, the reason why I leftwas that the startup was
(16:34):
such an early stage startup.
And I sort of neededa little bit more in
terms of compensation.
But certainly it was anexperience that for me
jumpstarted my interest inFinTech, my interest in finance
and my interest in seeingways in which I could again,
innovate and create on the job.
And so that is really whatled me to leave higher ed.
Jesse Butts (16:55):
And what exactly is customer success?
Judith Lagrou (16:58):
Sure.
So customer success is areally new area of business
in which, let's say there'sa product that's being sold
and there is maybe somethingtechnical about that product
that perhaps like a clientservice line or customer service
line will answer to or respond.
(17:19):
After that problem isbeing solved where like the
relationship between thatbusiness and that client is
really sort of massaged in a waythat sales massages it before
the sale, if that makes sense.
So it's more likecustomer retention,
to be honest with you.
Jesse Butts (17:36):
We see the thread.
Judith Lagrou (17:37):
Exactly.
Definitely a, a fit in termsof understanding motivation,
understanding ways in whichnot so much like a sale can
take place, but understandingthe reasons for how we assess
the health of a relationshipand how we can sort of
take action to maintainthat health or improve it.
(17:58):
The position at Aeropay interms of really building
out the customer successprogram allowed me to delve
very deeply into the field.
And then the next move I madewas to move to a larger company
to Morningstar in Chicago,where I did customer success
for their products as well.
And so, similarlyit was becoming...
(18:19):
definitely sort of a go-toperson for knowledge about a
certain product and then sortof utilizing the information
I had not so much to dotroubleshooting, but to speak
to the client about how therelationship is going and ways
in which, you know, the companycould be a stronger partner to
that entity that is purchasingor using their products.
(18:40):
So definitely retentiona hundred percent.
Jesse Butts (18:43):
As you've, been working in customer success
and you've enjoyed thefinance, the FinTech world,
how did you start making thattransition from a customer
success role to somethingon the investment side?
Judith Lagrou (18:58):
I thought that I would be in my
role at Morningstar forthe rest of my career.
So I was quite surprisedto make the move that I did
into investment banking.
Honestly, I was made awarethrough maybe my network of a
program that my bank had throughwhich they were seeking out
(19:18):
individuals who had worked indifferent industries, and who
had developed their careers ina different industry to sort of
apply for a, a set program inwhich they would come into the
company, be trained, receivetheir licensing, and sort
of go through two rotationsto get a sense of what the
(19:40):
bank does and their role withlike what position would work
for them within that bank.
So that's how I came intothe employer i, I am at now.
That I came in throughthis program and they
vetted us like crazy.
They certainly put us throughmany rounds of interviews and
had leaders at the companyspeak to us and get a sense
of our, our ability to dothe work and, and the cohort
(20:03):
that I'm at my company withare the best and brightest.
And that's really how I movedinto investment banking.
I was, you know, I worked quitehard to, to not only, you know,
be successful in my own careerand my own right with my own
transition, but also to presentthat in a way that made it very
(20:24):
clear that the next step for mewas to really delve more deeply
into finance through gettingexperience on the revenue
generating side of the business.
Jesse Butts (20:33):
The, The company that you did this
rotation in, and you gotyour licenses through,
this wasn't Morningstar.
This is where you'recurrently working?
Judith Lagrou (20:40):
That's right.
Jesse Butts (20:40):
Okay.
Gotcha.
What do you find mostenjoyable about being on
the investment side now?
Judith Lagrou (20:48):
I would say number one, in higher ed, I,
I believe that there is a,in administration generally
there is a reticenceor reluctance to change.
That's what I foundacross the board.
That there would be a process.
And if we wanted that processto change, because it was
not as efficient or, it wasmaybe wasted resources or maybe
(21:11):
it was a little circuitous,there was resistance.
And I think that in, inbusiness and in finance,
if there's an idea and youcan prove it and you can
explain it and you've gotthe data, you can go with it.
And so that's whatI really like.
I really like theopenness to change.
I would say secondly, what Ireally like is the challenge.
(21:32):
And this is just whatit is that higher ed can
sometimes lag behind interms of technology usage.
And so for me, catching upto everything and everyone,
sort of in, in this corporatesetting was in and of, of
itself a challenge, butcertainly I'd say the urgency
of, of things was somethingthat I got used to, but it
(21:55):
was certainly a big change.
And I think that for me, it'scertainly made me a better
professional across the board.
Just to know that if thereis an issue we're not talking
about next academic year,we're talking about today.
It's being discussed andwe're talking about today.
We're hopping on a call to,to think about next steps.
So certainly by shorteningthat timeline, I find the
(22:18):
challenge is very much welcome.
Jesse Butts (22:20):
What's the new...
or maybe I should say, Is therea new retention, expansion?
Is there a new passion ordriver that you've found?
Or have you taken adifferent view of the
importance of somethinglike that in your work?
Judith Lagrou (22:38):
I would say that the form that retention
and, and expansion to accessfor me takes nowadays is,
really thinking about thatwith respect to the strategic
projects that I take on.
So who is not includedin this conversation that
perhaps needs to be included?
Who needs to be recognizedin a way that maybe they
have not been recognized?
(22:58):
I would add too that thetraining I received in diversity
and inclusion, personally forme, allows me to really see
an environment and understandat least, from my perspective
as a Black woman, exactly ifthey're a good fit or not.
And what exactly about thatenvironment, perhaps may be
(23:20):
or may not be a good fit.
So I think that forme, the retention has
actually turned inward.
The expansion has turned inward.
It has sort of said, Okay,we've worked with students
to help them sort ofget access to higher ed.
What about me?
There is sort of like a, aquestion there too, where
I entered a field whereyou don't see many Black
(23:41):
women, you certainly don'tsee many people of color.
And so I think of it too, asunderstanding that the work
maybe has always been internal.
That by sort of expandingaccess to others that I
really understood thatit was sort of a field in
which I could also benefit.
Jesse Butts (24:02):
What do you mean by the work was internal?
Judith Lagrou (24:05):
Sure, sure.
I'm happy to explain.
Yes, I was working in higher ed.
And I think that as sortof somebody who was an
administrator, I wasdoing this work of helping
students figure out what wasbetween them and graduating.
And how to removethose barriers.
And then when I looked at myown career and I saw that I was
seeking a challenge that was notthere, I really saw that there
(24:30):
was an opportunity for me toenter a field that itself needed
to be sort of strengthened inthe area of expanding access
and retaining particularlyemployees of color and women.
And so by entering intothat , into that realm and
working within finance tobe very specific, I really
see that the work that I didwithin retention is looking
(24:53):
at me straight in the face.
That I am really askingmyself questions about,
Okay, what is a good fit?
What does that mean?
And what are things I cando in my own career to
ensure that the fit is good?
Or to make moves, ifthat fit is not good?
Jesse Butts (25:09):
Is there anything you learned during your master's
program or your time workingin higher ed that's helped
you in your new career that wehaven't talked about already?
Judith Lagrou (25:17):
Yes.
In my master's degree program,we took a course, it was
basically a general highereducation leadership course.
And there was an assignmentor a project in that
course that has stuck withme until this very day.
And that assignment slash coursewas sort of a day in the life
(25:38):
of a university president.
And so it was that we eachreceived like a packet
of emails and letters andmemorandum that a university
president would get.
And then we each would haveto basically write a paper,
explaining our course ofaction and the order in which
we took each sort of stepin that course of action and
(26:00):
the justification for that.
And so for me, that exercisewas very helpful in terms of
understanding separate and verycompeting demands on one's time.
It allowed me to reallyunderstand sort of politically
speaking, there may bethings that happen in your
career that may not make aton of sense at the time.
(26:21):
But if you take a bigstep back and sort of see
the big picture, it verywell could and will often.
And then even understandingthe power of relationships,
understanding that fromfinding a, a job in and of
itself to being successful inthat job, to being promoted
within that job, a lot ofthis is very dependent on the
(26:42):
relationships that you have.
And so for me, that exerciseallowed me to really understand
on a very deep level, again, thedemands on one's time and focus.
As well as the importanceof relationships in one's
career, no matter the industry.
Jesse Butts (26:58):
this point, would you say you love your job?
Do you need to love a job?
Is a job something that...
it's enjoyable, but Ihave other pursuits?
What's your take on that?
Judith Lagrou (27:10):
I would say, Ooh, fit is more
important than anything.
And you know, my perspectiveon fit has really evolved
through my career in away that I really love.
I used to think, I apply to ajob and say, Oh my goodness.
I hope they like me.
I hope they take me.
I hope they hire me.
And now, I really lookat it as a two way street.
(27:31):
And I think that's socritical and so important,
to really understand, Isthis an, an environment
in which, I can thrive?
Not that I can just getthrough, but I really feel
at home and that I feelcomfortable in that I feel
not tolerated, but activelywelcomed in a t all levels.
And so that's for me gettingto know myself very well.
(27:53):
What has helped me is, isdoing like a life map and
understanding the themes inmy career and the themes in
my life and the things thatI've done in my life that,
I've lost track of time doing.
And really getting all ofthose items together and seeing
the, the similarities and thethemes that come out and really
seeking places that would allowme to keep doing more of that.
(28:16):
Or would allow me to alsobe a go to person for
that skill set perhaps.
Someone who can teach orsomeone who could learn more.
So for me to love a jobis more about knowing that
there will be bad days.
But if I feel as if I'm onthe right path, generally,
(28:40):
that that is the focus.
So, yeah, it'slike a love, yes?
But it's almost likea, I'm afraid to use the
word unconditional love.
But you know whatI'm talking about.
Where it's like, a big picturekind of experience where
with a job, you sort of say,I am on the right track.
And that kind of love.
So not like a, a teenybopper baby puppy love.
(29:04):
But a, a marriage kindof love where you're
like, I'm doing this.
We're in it thick and thin.
Jesse Butts (29:10):
A partnership?
Judith Lagrou (29:12):
Partnership, exactly is what I'm
certainly zeroed in on atthis point in my career.
Jesse Butts (29:18):
You've mentioned so much great advice.
That, that life map and, youlearned new skills through
improv that helped youdiscover things, you focused on
writing and communications...
You know, you've done a lot ofthings to expand your abilities,
your thinking process.
I'm curious if you have anyother advice for people who
(29:41):
are a little stuck, not justin what do I do next, but
with the identity portion.
I mean, when we go to gradschool, a lot of us get our,
our identity intertwinedwith what we're studying.
And Instead of, what I do forwork is higher ed admin, it's
I am a higher ed administrator.
Did you have any qualmswith, shifting that identity?
(30:03):
And, and if so, just kind of,how did you work through those?
Judith Lagrou (30:07):
Yeah, I think that's a good question.
We're gonna go there.
My number one careeradvice is to go to therapy.
That's it.
I really believe thatinternal introspection,
it h as always been thebest thing for my career.
And, and, and also it's mespeaking on behalf of myself.
(30:28):
It may not work for everyone.
But I will say that it workedfor me because it allowed me
to understand that by workingin higher ed administration,
for me, it was kind of a wayfor me to hide behind the
curtain and help other people.
While that is certainly a goodthing to do if that's something
you earnestly want to do.
(30:49):
It, for me, became a way ofnot being awakened to my own
identity and my own preferencesand my own abilities.
That's number one forme is know thy self.
That is understanding exactlywho you are and what it took
for you to get to where you are.
In terms of identifyingwith a career, I think
(31:11):
also just knowing thatyou are not your career.
Being very cognizant ofthe fact that careers
can certainly change.
And it's okay to change them.
If that's somethingthat you want to do.
Jesse Butts (31:23):
And you've talked a lot about fit
within institutions.
You've worked for Duke,Northwestern, University
of Chicago, Morningstar.
You're with a, a majorWall Street firm now.
Is the prestige ofan organization a
big factor for you?
Judith Lagrou (31:40):
You know, it used to be.
It really did.
Oftentimes, yes, theprestige can be nice.
I believe that I, I haveprivilege in that area.
That I went to theseschools, I went to, you know,
Stanford for undergrad andHarvard for grad school.
And so it, for me wasalmost like a driving
factor in my own career.
(32:02):
And I would often turn aroundand say, Well, I'm interested in
retention and expanding access,particularly to marginalized
communities, students of color.
But I am sittinghere at predominantly
white institutions.
What does that even mean?
And so for me, that isreally in the process
of like being challengedand questioned because
(32:24):
I really believe now thatpresitigous institutions...
They, they do have a lot togive in terms of, of course
funding, research and resources.
But that's not the only placewhere innovation is being
done and that's not the onlyplace where fit can be found.
So for me, it's just beena journey to break that
(32:45):
down and dismantle it.
And I'm reallyhappy to, to see it.
And I'm happy to beon that path now to
understanding that perhapsname is not all there is.
That in fact that, if youpeel back one layer, it's
really important to understandwho is in that organization.
(33:06):
And if those kinds of peopleare people you want to see every
day and work with every day.
Jesse Butts (33:11):
I've talked to a number of guests about this.
Some people arereally position drive.
They want to do X andthey're not, they're not
as particular about where.
Other people are a little bitless concerned about the role
they're doing and more like,I'm really passionate about
this and I want to make sure I'maligned with an organization.
Or this organization isconsidered the best and
(33:33):
that's really important to me.
So I, I know there's a lotof different takes on, on
this, and guests had verydifferent opinions too.
Judith Lagrou (33:41):
I can see that.
You know, I think that there'scertainly a pull here, right?
You want to sort of make alot of impact and you want
to sit in a place wherethere's a lot of resources.
You know you're gettingthe best of everything.
You know that people willpay attention when you
say you work at blank.
On the other hand, right, howdo you spread those resources?
How do you makethem more equitable?
(34:03):
I wish I knew theanswer to that.
Jesse Butts (34:05):
I think we all do, but yeah.
Judith Lagrou (34:07):
I really do.
Yes.
Jesse Butts (34:09):
Yeah.
Were there any, any books,any TED talks, any, anything
that really helped maybe notinfluence you, but kind of find
your way through the corn mazeas you were considering these.
Just any recommendationsfor, for people to check out?
Judith Lagrou (34:25):
Oh, sure.
There was a book, Ibelieve it was called What
Should I Do With My Life?
And it's written by, I believean author named Po Bronson.
I'm not sure, but I believethat that book has an exercise
for one to create a lifemap, which is what I had
mentioned a little bit earlier.
There is a book also calledThe Four Tendencies by Gretchen
(34:47):
Rubin, which I really love.
It basically talks aboutways in which we as
individuals are motivated.
So is that like intrinsic?
Are we sort of peoplewho motivate ourselves
and are not as concernedwith external motivation?
Do we just needexternal motivation?
So understanding that aspecthas been really helpful for me.
(35:09):
I would say too, youknow, mindset for me
has been really big.
I wish I could think of abook that helped me with
that mindset, but, I wouldsay, through a journey of
leaving higher ed and goinginto corporate America in
any sense I had to be veryprepared to hear no a lot.
If you hear a no, itdoesn't mean never.
(35:30):
It means not withme or not right now.
So, Morningstar, Ibelieve I applied to work
there in December 2018.
And I went throughthe whole process.
I interviewed, I had to do apresentation for my interview.
And then in maybe Januaryof that year I got a phone
call from the HR rep sayingthat I was not selected for
(35:52):
the role and that she didn'tthink that it was a good fit.
Point blank told me,like, I don't think this
is a good fit for you.
And I took my own adviceand I said, that's not a
never, I think that's a notwith me or not right now.
And by sort of March, Ihad the role at Aeropay.
And I was building thiscustomer success program.
(36:12):
And I reapplied to Morningstar.
And they noticed myapplication and I got hired.
And so sometimes it couldbe when you're coming out of
higher ed, you may need tomaybe take on a role that could
be helpful to bridge the gap.
So, it was tough for mebecause I had to sort of
take on this role that wasat a, a smaller startup.
(36:35):
And the compensationwasn't what I was used to.
But it was a risk I took.
And I recognize andunderstand that not
everyone can take that risk.
Right.
But perhaps maybe takingon a side project.
Or even...
volunteering as much as you can.
I know that's tough to hearbecause like nobody has time.
But ways in which you can in aconcrete way prove that you are
(36:57):
interested in that new industry.
And then have somebody inthat industry vouch for you
are big pieces of advicethat I feel like I've gleaned
from books that I can'tremember the names of, but
certainly they helped me.
Jesse Butts (37:08):
It's excellent, wonderful advice.
So I'd like to end, littlebit of a hometown pride.
I know that you worked inChicago for a number of years.
You're in Wall Street now.
What's something that Chicagodoes better than New York?
Judith Lagrou (37:21):
Pizza.
People can come at me.
I don't, I don't mind.
I'll argue this all day.
Pizza.
And I would also say um,certainly there's nothing
like a summer in Chicago.
Perhaps because they wereso drastically different
from the winters, whichare straight misery.
Jesse Butts (37:38):
I, I love ending on that note.
Thank you, Judith, for, forjoining me, this was really
a wonderful conversation.
Judith Lagrou (37:43):
Thank you so much, Jesse, for having me.
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host, Jesse Butts.
Today, I'm chatting withJudith Lagrou, a master's in
higher ed from Harvard turnedinvestment banking strategist.
Judith is now an associateat a major Wall Street firm.
Judith, welcome to the show.
Thanks for joining me.
Judith Lagrou (00:40):
Thank you so much for having me, Jesse.
Jesse Butts (00:42):
Absolutely.
So pretty interesting changein career here, but before
we chat about how you foundyour way from higher ed
administration to Wall Street,can you tell us just a little
bit about what you're doing now?
Like what exactly doesinvestment banking
strategy involve?
Judith Lagrou (01:00):
Sure.
Investment banking strategyfor me involves working with
bankers, sales people, andtraders to get a sense of what
investors will be interestedin a particular bond issue.
So that involves not onlyknowing the bond really well
and the market that it'sbeing sort of sold in, but
also knowing the market well.
Jesse Butts (01:20):
I've heard the term bond a million times.
I think I kind of 60% knowwhat it is, but could you give
us just a very high overviewof that for maybe some of us
who really have been faking itfor a lot of years, thinking
what they know bonds are.
Judith Lagrou (01:34):
I am happy to do that.
So a bond is essentiallywhen an entity, so it could
be a company like Coca-Cola,it could be a state or a
city like New York, Chicago,San Francisco, California.
They want to get funding,and they don't have the
money, for example, tomaybe build a new plant
(01:55):
or fix a certain toll road.
And so a bond is what allowsany of these entities to
basically get money lentto them by investors.
So they go out into the marketand they sell these bonds.
And in that way they get sort ofmore liquid money so that they
can use for various projects.
Jesse Butts (02:14):
So now that we can all speak intelligently
about bonds, thanks toyou, I'm curious if we
can go back a little.
Why did you decideto go to grad school?
Like what made you interestedin pursuing a degree
in the administrativeside of higher ed?
Judith Lagrou (02:28):
I ask myself that question quite a bit.
But I will say that, There aretwo answers to that question.
There's the, I was workingin higher ed and I wanted
to learn more about it.
That's one answer.
And I'd say the second answerwas I was young, and I wanted
to go to grad school, and Ididn't know what to do it in.
After undergrad, I reallythought my life would
(02:51):
take a different path.
I thought I was goingto move overseas and
teach English actually.
And when I decided to not dothat, , I basically just...
I wouldn't say I got coldfeet, but I more or less sort
of looked around and said,This doesn't feel right.
I'm going to try something else.
The first thing that came to mymind was to work within higher
(03:13):
ed because I was comfortablewith it and I, you know, was
interested in, in learning.
Just...
I don't know.
I would say I was reallyinterested in being on
a college campus for alittle bit more time.
And so while I was working atmy first job, which was at Duke
University in North Carolina.
I did a lot of work withsetting up and not really
setting up, but I'd say,maintaining and running the
(03:35):
pre-health advising program.
So while I was doing thatwork, I thought more deeply
about issues around retention.
And in that line of thinking,I thought, Well, I'm not sure
if I'm going to be able to doanything from where I'm sitting
here in an administrative job.
And so I started to thinkabout what applying to a
master's degree program andgetting a very good sense of
(03:58):
what factors were at play.
And what I could do toimprove retention rates in my
own career would look like.
Jesse Butts (04:04):
Was there a gap between your
undergrad and grad school?
Judith Lagrou (04:08):
There was.
I worked for two years.
And that's when I was at Duke.
Jesse Butts (04:11):
When you were in the program, what kind of
classes prepare you to focuson things like retention rates,
that you know, you mentionedreally piqued your curiosity?
Judith Lagrou (04:22):
That's a great question.
And as well as I can remember,I will, I'll give some
examples of classes I took.
I certainly took classesthat had to do with
race and education.
So I took one class aboutsort of the Supreme Court,
and its various decisionsthat had to do with school
choice, desegregation,anything that involved race
in education and the SupremeCourt, I took a class on.
(04:44):
It was a wonderful class.
I also took a course on theeconomics of higher education.
So understanding financial aid,student loans, everything that
goes into sort of how tuitionis calculated and decided.
And then I also took a studentdevelopment theory course.
(05:04):
So that student developmenttheory course really exposed
me to the number of differenttheories that really impact
young adults and how theirbrains develop and how
their cognition developsin their college years.
So that really helped meunderstand where students
were in terms of their ownpersonal development and
how to meet them there asa higher ed professional.
Jesse Butts (05:26):
So as you were getting near the end or at
graduation, were you stillfeeling pretty excited
about a career in higher ed?
Were you starting to, tosecond guess a career path?
Judith Lagrou (05:39):
By the time I graduated, I was fully
drinking the Kool-Aid.
I was certainly veryexcited about, starting
my career in higher ed.
I, before I graduated, had ajob offer in California, where
I eventually went to go work.
So I became a communitydirector at Cal State
Northridge and had that joboffer by the time I graduated.
(06:00):
So I knew when I was walkingacross the stage to get
my diploma, that I wascontinuing that work of
encouraging student retention.
Jesse Butts (06:10):
What were you doing in, you know, maybe
some of your first jobsright after grad school?
Judith Lagrou (06:16):
Sure.
So at Cal State Northridge,I was a community director
within, it was sort of theumbrella of student affairs.
And then a smaller sort offunnel into sort of student
housing and residential life.
So as a community director, Ilived on campus and primarily my
work was working with studentswho chose to live on campus.
(06:38):
But there was an aspect ofmy work as well that really
sort of sought to drivestudent retention and, and
think really criticallyabout how to increase it.
So ways in which I did thatwas being sort of the advisor
of the honors college.
Ways in which I did that wasmeeting one on one with students
who were on academic probationand really understanding where
(07:00):
they were coming from andreally allowing my connections
within housing and residentiallife to improve sort of the,
the quality of life of thosestudents who were struggling.
I also supervised sort of myteam of, of resident advisors
and planned events with them.
So really engendering aspirit of community within
(07:20):
the housing, residentiallife sort of arena was
certainly my bread and butter.
But it definitely extended outto, as I'd mentioned, sort of
the honors college and meetingwith students who were sort of
on academic probation as well.
Jesse Butts (07:36):
Had you kind of developed what you thought
was kind of an ideal job trackwhere you could just keep on
getting deeper and deeper intomaking positive contributions
to retention rates?
I know that, you know,you've worked for a number
of institutions before youmade the leap to Wall Street.
Just kind of curiousabout that progression.
Judith Lagrou (07:55):
So I think at Cal State Northridge,
although, you know, the jobwas very, very, I would say
character defining for me.
Cal State Northridge wasthe first place where I
had training with respectto privilege, social
justice, race, everything.
(08:15):
I think when people sort of talkabout diversity training, it,
it can get kind of mired in alot of, I would say, Ooh, it,
it can get kind of complicated.
And by complicated I mean, itcan be divisive, not in the
way that, Oh, by bringing uprace we're causing a fight.
No, but I think it...
sometimes diversity trainingcan come in and say, Well,
(08:37):
how do we make the leastamount of people upset?
And at Cal State Northridge,I really had this experience
where I really understood thatthey were bigger powers at
play with respect to retention.
So, I don't know.
I think that made me a bitjaded to be perfectly frank.
So I really kind of felt alittle lost at that point.
(08:58):
And I decided that I didn'twant to sort of work in
student affairs anymore.
And instead I, I felt the needto really dive more deeply
into improving my writingand my communication skills.
And so at that point,I was able to land a
position at the Universityof Chicago law school.
(09:18):
And that is when I picked upeverything and moved to Chicago
and worked in development,which was wildly different
from the world I had left.
At the University ofChicago, I primarily wrote.
I was the assistantdirector of alumni
relations and stewardship.
So basically that meant that ifsomebody gave money to the law
school , I was the person whowas writing reports in which
(09:43):
I maybe interviewed a facultymember who had received funding
from a certain scholarship,or not scholarship, but from a
certain donation that was given.
I was, planning Thankathonevents with current students
where they would writethank you cards to donors.
So from thatexperience it was...
it went from student retentionto, gosh, I really should
(10:05):
think about this more deeply interms of what that had to do.
For me, it was more about,What are ways in which we
can, I don't know, think,think differently about
the goings on of higher ed.
I think for me it was morelike a focus on me at that
point, but I don't think I everforgot about retention per se.
(10:28):
I think it was more like,What are ways in which we
can really think about whatit takes for students to
be here in the first place.
And that, that was a, areally unorthodox turn in
my career, I would say.
Jesse Butts (10:41):
In terms of people from your cohort
didn't take that path?
Or it felt like to youpersonally, that was like a
180 in kind of ....drive maybe might be the right word?
Judith Lagrou (10:51):
You know, looking back, it was
a, a really big 180.
I think the part of it thatI liked the most, the part
of my role at the Universityof Chicago that I liked
the most was of course,working with students and
really understanding ort ofthe goings on of a school,
like a professional schooland understanding how that
entity works to expandaccess to that school.
(11:15):
So what are ways in whichthey really tell the story
of what it takes for morestudents to become lawyers?
And what are ways in whichI could support that effort?
So in my mind, I thinkit went from retention
to expanding access inthat move in particular.
Jesse Butts (11:32):
How long were you doing that?
And was this kind ofnearing a point where you
were questioning a careerin higher ed in general?
Judith Lagrou (11:40):
Oh, Jesse, I really wish that I was
questioning it at that point,but I was really still, I
was really still drinkingthe Kool-Aid at that point.
I was at the Universityof Chicago for a
little over two years.
And then after that, I tooka little bit of a break.
And I think now that I lookback on it and I'm like,
Of course I was burnt out.
(12:00):
I think that, like, I sortof had a sense of what I
went into higher ed to do.
And suddenly I was in, I wasat a professional school doing
similar work, but perhapsnot feeling as in touch with
this idea of retention that Imaybe started higher ed with.
And so at that point,funny enough, I started
to study improv.
(12:23):
So at the time I was atUniversity of Chicago, I
applied to and received ascholarship to teach yoga.
And while teaching yogain Chicago, again, this
is my hobby, thinking,Okay, there's a big improv
sort of community here.
Why don't I try todo improv as a way to
improve my yoga teaching?
And I started to doimprov and it became a
(12:43):
way for me to more deeplyunderstand my creative self.
And I think that is actuallywhat got me to start
thinking about my careera bit differently, Being
creative, being innovativewas something that perked
up to me as, something thatperhaps I could think about
doing in my own career.
I would say after the Universityof Chicago, that's when I
(13:05):
started to think about it.
But I continued on ineducation, eventually landing
at Northwestern University,where I worked as the assistant
registrar and coordinator ofthe visiting students program
at their medical school.
And so similarly I was sort ofworking within administration
(13:26):
again, working with students,working to expand access.
The visiting students programwas for students from all
over the world to come toNorthwestern and study sort
of an area of medicine thatthey couldn't study anywhere
else, or they felt likeNorthwestern was a, a leader in.
So again, here I was sort ofexpanding access in higher ed.
Jesse Butts (13:48):
If someone told me that retention or you
know, expanding access werereally big drivers for them,
really important to them, Iwould think, Oh, you know,
registrar's office, thatmight not be the pinnacle, but
that seems like, you know, agreat place to be doing that,
be learning, before maybebecoming like a vice president
(14:09):
of advancement or enrollmentor, or something like that.
But it sounds like maybe,maybe on paper that,
that all sounded great.
But perhaps in real life,it, just wasn't, aligning
to, to what you were thinking?
Judith La (14:23):
You're exactly right.
And I think that's onething that I have learned
over the years that I thinkthat a position can look
one way on paper, but whenyou're sitting in that, in
that seat, it can reallymanifest quite differently.
And I think in the, in my lasttwo roles in higher ed, I,
I really saw that I learnedit the hard way so to speak.
(14:43):
Not to say that I didn't learnsomething from both of those
roles, but I think that as Istarted to move further away
from this original concept of,of student retention, I started
to sort of see that perhapsa different industry held
what I was truly looking for.
(15:03):
And that happened aftermy time at Northwestern.
And it was a really interestingsort of job search period
after leaving Northwestern.
I was sort of applying to amix of positions and quite
frankly, looking back at thattime, this was a circa 2018.
Around that time I knew Iwanted to be challenged.
I, I looked back on my careerand I saw that a lot of
(15:25):
positions I had, not onlywas I interested in this
concept of sort of workingdirectly with students and
working to sort of increaseengagement and retention.
But I also saw that I was reallybig on giving myself challenges.
So I was often makingprocesses more efficient.
I was often really looking atways in which I could innovate
(15:48):
and create and strategize.
And so I reallyjust was quite open.
Yes, I was thinkingabout vice president and
assistant dean roles atthat time, but I came across
this listing for a startupin Chicago called Aeropay.
And I applied, I interviewedand they wanted to bring
(16:11):
somebody in to develop theircustomer success program.
So it was an earlystage startup.
And while I sort of looked atit like, Wow, what a, what a
different sort of shift fromall the work I'd been doing.
I was very excited aboutit and I maintained that
excitement through the role.
The, the reason why I leftwas that the startup was
(16:34):
such an early stage startup.
And I sort of neededa little bit more in
terms of compensation.
But certainly it was anexperience that for me
jumpstarted my interest inFinTech, my interest in finance
and my interest in seeingways in which I could again,
innovate and create on the job.
And so that is really whatled me to leave higher ed.
Jesse Butts (16:55):
And what exactly is customer success?
Judith Lagrou (16:58):
Sure.
So customer success is areally new area of business
in which, let's say there'sa product that's being sold
and there is maybe somethingtechnical about that product
that perhaps like a clientservice line or customer service
line will answer to or respond.
(17:19):
After that problem isbeing solved where like the
relationship between thatbusiness and that client is
really sort of massaged in a waythat sales massages it before
the sale, if that makes sense.
So it's more likecustomer retention,
to be honest with you.
Jesse Butts (17:36):
We see the thread.
Judith Lagrou (17:37):
Exactly.
Definitely a, a fit in termsof understanding motivation,
understanding ways in whichnot so much like a sale can
take place, but understandingthe reasons for how we assess
the health of a relationshipand how we can sort of
take action to maintainthat health or improve it.
(17:58):
The position at Aeropay interms of really building
out the customer successprogram allowed me to delve
very deeply into the field.
And then the next move I madewas to move to a larger company
to Morningstar in Chicago,where I did customer success
for their products as well.
And so, similarlyit was becoming...
(18:19):
definitely sort of a go-toperson for knowledge about a
certain product and then sortof utilizing the information
I had not so much to dotroubleshooting, but to speak
to the client about how therelationship is going and ways
in which, you know, the companycould be a stronger partner to
that entity that is purchasingor using their products.
(18:40):
So definitely retentiona hundred percent.
Jesse Butts (18:43):
As you've, been working in customer success
and you've enjoyed thefinance, the FinTech world,
how did you start making thattransition from a customer
success role to somethingon the investment side?
Judith Lagrou (18:58):
I thought that I would be in my
role at Morningstar forthe rest of my career.
So I was quite surprisedto make the move that I did
into investment banking.
Honestly, I was made awarethrough maybe my network of a
program that my bank had throughwhich they were seeking out
(19:18):
individuals who had worked indifferent industries, and who
had developed their careers ina different industry to sort of
apply for a, a set program inwhich they would come into the
company, be trained, receivetheir licensing, and sort
of go through two rotationsto get a sense of what the
(19:40):
bank does and their role withlike what position would work
for them within that bank.
So that's how I came intothe employer i, I am at now.
That I came in throughthis program and they
vetted us like crazy.
They certainly put us throughmany rounds of interviews and
had leaders at the companyspeak to us and get a sense
of our, our ability to dothe work and, and the cohort
(20:03):
that I'm at my company withare the best and brightest.
And that's really how I movedinto investment banking.
I was, you know, I worked quitehard to, to not only, you know,
be successful in my own careerand my own right with my own
transition, but also to presentthat in a way that made it very
(20:24):
clear that the next step for mewas to really delve more deeply
into finance through gettingexperience on the revenue
generating side of the business.
Jesse Butts (20:33):
The, The company that you did this
rotation in, and you gotyour licenses through,
this wasn't Morningstar.
This is where you'recurrently working?
Judith Lagrou (20:40):
That's right.
Jesse Butts (20:40):
Okay.
Gotcha.
What do you find mostenjoyable about being on
the investment side now?
Judith Lagrou (20:48):
I would say number one, in higher ed, I,
I believe that there is a,in administration generally
there is a reticenceor reluctance to change.
That's what I foundacross the board.
That there would be a process.
And if we wanted that processto change, because it was
not as efficient or, it wasmaybe wasted resources or maybe
(21:11):
it was a little circuitous,there was resistance.
And I think that in, inbusiness and in finance,
if there's an idea and youcan prove it and you can
explain it and you've gotthe data, you can go with it.
And so that's whatI really like.
I really like theopenness to change.
I would say secondly, what Ireally like is the challenge.
(21:32):
And this is just whatit is that higher ed can
sometimes lag behind interms of technology usage.
And so for me, catching upto everything and everyone,
sort of in, in this corporatesetting was in and of, of
itself a challenge, butcertainly I'd say the urgency
of, of things was somethingthat I got used to, but it
(21:55):
was certainly a big change.
And I think that for me, it'scertainly made me a better
professional across the board.
Just to know that if thereis an issue we're not talking
about next academic year,we're talking about today.
It's being discussed andwe're talking about today.
We're hopping on a call to,to think about next steps.
So certainly by shorteningthat timeline, I find the
(22:18):
challenge is very much welcome.
Jesse Butts (22:20):
What's the new...
or maybe I should say, Is therea new retention, expansion?
Is there a new passion ordriver that you've found?
Or have you taken adifferent view of the
importance of somethinglike that in your work?
Judith Lagrou (22:38):
I would say that the form that retention
and, and expansion to accessfor me takes nowadays is,
really thinking about thatwith respect to the strategic
projects that I take on.
So who is not includedin this conversation that
perhaps needs to be included?
Who needs to be recognizedin a way that maybe they
have not been recognized?
(22:58):
I would add too that thetraining I received in diversity
and inclusion, personally forme, allows me to really see
an environment and understandat least, from my perspective
as a Black woman, exactly ifthey're a good fit or not.
And what exactly about thatenvironment, perhaps may be
(23:20):
or may not be a good fit.
So I think that forme, the retention has
actually turned inward.
The expansion has turned inward.
It has sort of said, Okay,we've worked with students
to help them sort ofget access to higher ed.
What about me?
There is sort of like a, aquestion there too, where
I entered a field whereyou don't see many Black
(23:41):
women, you certainly don'tsee many people of color.
And so I think of it too, asunderstanding that the work
maybe has always been internal.
That by sort of expandingaccess to others that I
really understood thatit was sort of a field in
which I could also benefit.
Jesse Butts (24:02):
What do you mean by the work was internal?
Judith Lagrou (24:05):
Sure, sure.
I'm happy to explain.
Yes, I was working in higher ed.
And I think that as sortof somebody who was an
administrator, I wasdoing this work of helping
students figure out what wasbetween them and graduating.
And how to removethose barriers.
And then when I looked at myown career and I saw that I was
seeking a challenge that was notthere, I really saw that there
(24:30):
was an opportunity for me toenter a field that itself needed
to be sort of strengthened inthe area of expanding access
and retaining particularlyemployees of color and women.
And so by entering intothat , into that realm and
working within finance tobe very specific, I really
see that the work that I didwithin retention is looking
(24:53):
at me straight in the face.
That I am really askingmyself questions about,
Okay, what is a good fit?
What does that mean?
And what are things I cando in my own career to
ensure that the fit is good?
Or to make moves, ifthat fit is not good?
Jesse Butts (25:09):
Is there anything you learned during your master's
program or your time workingin higher ed that's helped
you in your new career that wehaven't talked about already?
Judith Lagrou (25:17):
Yes.
In my master's degree program,we took a course, it was
basically a general highereducation leadership course.
And there was an assignmentor a project in that
course that has stuck withme until this very day.
And that assignment slash coursewas sort of a day in the life
(25:38):
of a university president.
And so it was that we eachreceived like a packet
of emails and letters andmemorandum that a university
president would get.
And then we each would haveto basically write a paper,
explaining our course ofaction and the order in which
we took each sort of stepin that course of action and
(26:00):
the justification for that.
And so for me, that exercisewas very helpful in terms of
understanding separate and verycompeting demands on one's time.
It allowed me to reallyunderstand sort of politically
speaking, there may bethings that happen in your
career that may not make aton of sense at the time.
(26:21):
But if you take a bigstep back and sort of see
the big picture, it verywell could and will often.
And then even understandingthe power of relationships,
understanding that fromfinding a, a job in and of
itself to being successful inthat job, to being promoted
within that job, a lot ofthis is very dependent on the
(26:42):
relationships that you have.
And so for me, that exerciseallowed me to really understand
on a very deep level, again, thedemands on one's time and focus.
As well as the importanceof relationships in one's
career, no matter the industry.
Jesse Butts (26:58):
this point, would you say you love your job?
Do you need to love a job?
Is a job something that...
it's enjoyable, but Ihave other pursuits?
What's your take on that?
Judith Lagrou (27:10):
I would say, Ooh, fit is more
important than anything.
And you know, my perspectiveon fit has really evolved
through my career in away that I really love.
I used to think, I apply to ajob and say, Oh my goodness.
I hope they like me.
I hope they take me.
I hope they hire me.
And now, I really lookat it as a two way street.
(27:31):
And I think that's socritical and so important,
to really understand, Isthis an, an environment
in which, I can thrive?
Not that I can just getthrough, but I really feel
at home and that I feelcomfortable in that I feel
not tolerated, but activelywelcomed in a t all levels.
And so that's for me gettingto know myself very well.
(27:53):
What has helped me is, isdoing like a life map and
understanding the themes inmy career and the themes in
my life and the things thatI've done in my life that,
I've lost track of time doing.
And really getting all ofthose items together and seeing
the, the similarities and thethemes that come out and really
seeking places that would allowme to keep doing more of that.
(28:16):
Or would allow me to alsobe a go to person for
that skill set perhaps.
Someone who can teach orsomeone who could learn more.
So for me to love a jobis more about knowing that
there will be bad days.
But if I feel as if I'm onthe right path, generally,
(28:40):
that that is the focus.
So, yeah, it'slike a love, yes?
But it's almost likea, I'm afraid to use the
word unconditional love.
But you know whatI'm talking about.
Where it's like, a big picturekind of experience where
with a job, you sort of say,I am on the right track.
And that kind of love.
So not like a, a teenybopper baby puppy love.
(29:04):
But a, a marriage kindof love where you're
like, I'm doing this.
We're in it thick and thin.
Jesse Butts (29:10):
A partnership?
Judith Lagrou (29:12):
Partnership, exactly is what I'm
certainly zeroed in on atthis point in my career.
Jesse Butts (29:18):
You've mentioned so much great advice.
That, that life map and, youlearned new skills through
improv that helped youdiscover things, you focused on
writing and communications...
You know, you've done a lot ofthings to expand your abilities,
your thinking process.
I'm curious if you have anyother advice for people who
(29:41):
are a little stuck, not justin what do I do next, but
with the identity portion.
I mean, when we go to gradschool, a lot of us get our,
our identity intertwinedwith what we're studying.
And Instead of, what I do forwork is higher ed admin, it's
I am a higher ed administrator.
Did you have any qualmswith, shifting that identity?
(30:03):
And, and if so, just kind of,how did you work through those?
Judith Lagrou (30:07):
Yeah, I think that's a good question.
We're gonna go there.
My number one careeradvice is to go to therapy.
That's it.
I really believe thatinternal introspection,
it h as always been thebest thing for my career.
And, and, and also it's mespeaking on behalf of myself.
(30:28):
It may not work for everyone.
But I will say that it workedfor me because it allowed me
to understand that by workingin higher ed administration,
for me, it was kind of a wayfor me to hide behind the
curtain and help other people.
While that is certainly a goodthing to do if that's something
you earnestly want to do.
(30:49):
It, for me, became a way ofnot being awakened to my own
identity and my own preferencesand my own abilities.
That's number one forme is know thy self.
That is understanding exactlywho you are and what it took
for you to get to where you are.
In terms of identifyingwith a career, I think
(31:11):
also just knowing thatyou are not your career.
Being very cognizant ofthe fact that careers
can certainly change.
And it's okay to change them.
If that's somethingthat you want to do.
Jesse Butts (31:23):
And you've talked a lot about fit
within institutions.
You've worked for Duke,Northwestern, University
of Chicago, Morningstar.
You're with a, a majorWall Street firm now.
Is the prestige ofan organization a
big factor for you?
Judith Lagrou (31:40):
You know, it used to be.
It really did.
Oftentimes, yes, theprestige can be nice.
I believe that I, I haveprivilege in that area.
That I went to theseschools, I went to, you know,
Stanford for undergrad andHarvard for grad school.
And so it, for me wasalmost like a driving
factor in my own career.
(32:02):
And I would often turn aroundand say, Well, I'm interested in
retention and expanding access,particularly to marginalized
communities, students of color.
But I am sittinghere at predominantly
white institutions.
What does that even mean?
And so for me, that isreally in the process
of like being challengedand questioned because
(32:24):
I really believe now thatpresitigous institutions...
They, they do have a lot togive in terms of, of course
funding, research and resources.
But that's not the only placewhere innovation is being
done and that's not the onlyplace where fit can be found.
So for me, it's just beena journey to break that
(32:45):
down and dismantle it.
And I'm reallyhappy to, to see it.
And I'm happy to beon that path now to
understanding that perhapsname is not all there is.
That in fact that, if youpeel back one layer, it's
really important to understandwho is in that organization.
(33:06):
And if those kinds of peopleare people you want to see every
day and work with every day.
Jesse Butts (33:11):
I've talked to a number of guests about this.
Some people arereally position drive.
They want to do X andthey're not, they're not
as particular about where.
Other people are a little bitless concerned about the role
they're doing and more like,I'm really passionate about
this and I want to make sure I'maligned with an organization.
Or this organization isconsidered the best and
(33:33):
that's really important to me.
So I, I know there's a lotof different takes on, on
this, and guests had verydifferent opinions too.
Judith Lagrou (33:41):
I can see that.
You know, I think that there'scertainly a pull here, right?
You want to sort of make alot of impact and you want
to sit in a place wherethere's a lot of resources.
You know you're gettingthe best of everything.
You know that people willpay attention when you
say you work at blank.
On the other hand, right, howdo you spread those resources?
How do you makethem more equitable?
(34:03):
I wish I knew theanswer to that.
Jesse Butts (34:05):
I think we all do, but yeah.
Judith Lagrou (34:07):
I really do.
Yes.
Jesse Butts (34:09):
Yeah.
Were there any, any books,any TED talks, any, anything
that really helped maybe notinfluence you, but kind of find
your way through the corn mazeas you were considering these.
Just any recommendationsfor, for people to check out?
Judith Lagrou (34:25):
Oh, sure.
There was a book, Ibelieve it was called What
Should I Do With My Life?
And it's written by, I believean author named Po Bronson.
I'm not sure, but I believethat that book has an exercise
for one to create a lifemap, which is what I had
mentioned a little bit earlier.
There is a book also calledThe Four Tendencies by Gretchen
(34:47):
Rubin, which I really love.
It basically talks aboutways in which we as
individuals are motivated.
So is that like intrinsic?
Are we sort of peoplewho motivate ourselves
and are not as concernedwith external motivation?
Do we just needexternal motivation?
So understanding that aspecthas been really helpful for me.
(35:09):
I would say too, youknow, mindset for me
has been really big.
I wish I could think of abook that helped me with
that mindset, but, I wouldsay, through a journey of
leaving higher ed and goinginto corporate America in
any sense I had to be veryprepared to hear no a lot.
If you hear a no, itdoesn't mean never.
(35:30):
It means not withme or not right now.
So, Morningstar, Ibelieve I applied to work
there in December 2018.
And I went throughthe whole process.
I interviewed, I had to do apresentation for my interview.
And then in maybe Januaryof that year I got a phone
call from the HR rep sayingthat I was not selected for
(35:52):
the role and that she didn'tthink that it was a good fit.
Point blank told me,like, I don't think this
is a good fit for you.
And I took my own adviceand I said, that's not a
never, I think that's a notwith me or not right now.
And by sort of March, Ihad the role at Aeropay.
And I was building thiscustomer success program.
(36:12):
And I reapplied to Morningstar.
And they noticed myapplication and I got hired.
And so sometimes it couldbe when you're coming out of
higher ed, you may need tomaybe take on a role that could
be helpful to bridge the gap.
So, it was tough for mebecause I had to sort of
take on this role that wasat a, a smaller startup.
(36:35):
And the compensationwasn't what I was used to.
But it was a risk I took.
And I recognize andunderstand that not
everyone can take that risk.
Right.
But perhaps maybe takingon a side project.
Or even...
volunteering as much as you can.
I know that's tough to hearbecause like nobody has time.
But ways in which you can in aconcrete way prove that you are
(36:57):
interested in that new industry.
And then have somebody inthat industry vouch for you
are big pieces of advicethat I feel like I've gleaned
from books that I can'tremember the names of, but
certainly they helped me.
Jesse Butts (37:08):
It's excellent, wonderful advice.
So I'd like to end, littlebit of a hometown pride.
I know that you worked inChicago for a number of years.
You're in Wall Street now.
What's something that Chicagodoes better than New York?
Judith Lagrou (37:21):
Pizza.
People can come at me.
I don't, I don't mind.
I'll argue this all day.
Pizza.
And I would also say um,certainly there's nothing
like a summer in Chicago.
Perhaps because they wereso drastically different
from the winters, whichare straight misery.
Jesse Butts (37:38):
I, I love ending on that note.
Thank you, Judith, for, forjoining me, this was really
a wonderful conversation.
Judith Lagrou (37:43):
Thank you so much, Jesse, for having me.
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