October 12, 2022 • 34 mins
Zakiya's debut book Dump Your Degree is a practical guide for thinking beyond academic credentials as you pursue a new career. And she’s followed her own advice, transitioning from the professoriate (with a PhD in religious education) to full-time author.
We delve into her methodology through a step-by-step example of:
- considering different work after or during grad school
- reflecting on and discovering your natural interests, unique talents, and in-depth knowledge
- translating these abilities into relevant full-time, freelance, and self-employment roles
- networking and creating content to highlight your expertise and create your own opportunities
Like many guests have said before, it’s always easier to update your résumé and indiscriminately apply to jobs. But the success rate and job satisfaction of Zakiya’s playbook is much higher, particularly for the liberal arts crowd.
Where to find Zakiya and her book
Dump Your Degree by Zakiya Akerele
Zakiya on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Check out more from The Work Seminar
Visit theworkseminar.com or find @TheWorkSeminar on social media.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesse Butts (00:22):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host Jesse Butts.
Today we have a bonusepisode featuring Zakiya
Akerele, a PhD in religiouseducation from Fordham and the
author of Dump Your Degree.
Zakiya has been kind enoughto join us to chat about
her expertise helpingadvanced degree holders
control their careers.
(00:43):
Zakiya welcome to the show.
Thanks for joining us.
Zakiya Akerele (00:46):
Thank you for having me.
Jesse Butts (00:47):
Absolutely.
So before we talk aboutyour book and the process
that you've identified,can you tell us a little
bit about your own journey?
For example, what happened withyour career after earning your
PhD in religious education?
Zakiya Akerele (01:01):
Yeah.
So I had finishedmy degree in 2010.
And at that time we werein a recession or maybe
trying to come out of one.
Regardless, I met alot of challenges in
finding employment.
I wanted to join academia,become a professor and
I just was not findingfull-time employment.
(01:23):
I did some adjuncting.
Not too much in my field butfound some adjunct roles.
But after having gonethrough these transitions
of unemployment andunderemployment, I tried to
figure out a way that I could dowork that I enjoyed by creating
my own opportunities and notwaiting for someone to hire me.
(01:45):
So for about three years, I didsome consulting work, research,
not necessarily directlyrelated to my educational
background, but that was ableto transfer the skills that I
had acquired in higher educationwere able to transfer into
those roles and positions.
And from that, I realizedthat there were many
things that I enjoyed doingoutside of higher education.
(02:08):
So it allowed me todevelop my CV in a, in a
different, in a unique way.
But I subsequently endedup becoming a professor for
about five or six years.
I, I was on a tenure trackin religious studies.
I took a break between thosefive years and did some world
traveling and came back to it.
And after that transitionedinto being a full-time author.
Jesse Butts (02:30):
Just out of curiosity, what was your area
of focus in religious studies?
Zakiya Akerele (02:34):
Well, I primarily focused on African
traditional spirituality.
And taught courses in womenin religion, but primarily
African and African American.
Jesse Butts (02:44):
Okay.
So how long have you been,I believe you used the
term full-time author, ifI'm remembering correctly,
how long have you beenin that line of work?
Zakiya Akerele (02:53):
So it started during the pandemic.
I was still teaching andat the time I was, I was
pregnant with my second child.
And in the middle ofthe pandemic and I
didn't know what to do.
I was teaching inthe state of Florida.
So I don't know if peoplefollow Florida politics too
well, but the way they weresituating things were a little
different from other states.
(03:15):
And there was a requirementfor me to go back into
the classroom in person.
And I had just given birthmaybe less than two months
on top of it still being inthe heat of the pandemic.
And I just was not interestedin, in doing that, going
back into the classroom.
So I took family leave.
(03:35):
And after that endedup not going back.
Jesse Butts (03:39):
Before we, we kind of dive into your book,
was that a hard transitionto move away from teaching?
Or was it something that at thatpoint you kind of felt like, I'm
ready for something different?
Zakiya Akerele (03:52):
Yes, I was ready for something different.
Definitely.
I love teaching.
And I particularly love teachingin the area that I taught in.
I'm passionate about worldreligions in general.
But also just teachingabout culture and how people
evolved and developed.
But I realized that Ialso like my freedom.
(04:12):
And while higher educationgave me freedom that
many people don't get.
Right?
So I only taught duringthe fall and spring.
So I had my summers off ifI wanted to, sometimes I
did teach during summers.
But I still wanted more freedomto be able to do things, to
be able to spend with myfamily when I wanted to.
And having someone else createa schedule for me wasn't working
(04:35):
for my life at that time.
So it was, it was alittle bittersweet.
I, I loved the classroom,but I also was ready to
transition out of it.
Jesse Butts (04:45):
Yeah I mean, a pretty, pretty common
tale on, on the podcast.
So Zakiya, I, I thinkperhaps the best way to
approach your book, Dump YourDegree, is to run through
kind of the hypotheticalthat the show is based on.
So let's say you're in gradschool or maybe you've
been out a few years andyou don't feel like you want
(05:07):
to pursue what you studied.
You know, whether thatwould be joining academia
or being a practitioner ofsome sort in your discipline.
What do you do whenyou're in that situation?
Where do you even start inyour approach to all this?
Zakiya Akerele (05:21):
Yes.
I, I would definitely startwith a bit of reflection to
see what it is you enjoy doing.
I'm a proponent ofdoing what you enjoy.
I know a lot of peoplesay, Well, work is work.
It pays the bills,or what have you.
But I wish more peoplewould enjoy the work.
And even feel passionateabout the work that they do.
So reflecting on things youenjoy, things that you're
talented, naturally talented at.
(05:43):
And things that youhave skills in, right?
That you might have developed,whether it's through your
journey through highereducation or skills that you've
developed, maybe you wereself taught in an area, but
something that you know, thatyou can do professionally.
And after kind of reflectingon what are the things that
I enjoy, what are the thingsthat I'm good at, then
doing some research on howthose skills, those talents
(06:04):
can be used in a career.
We live in a, a great timein, in history where you
can pretty much make moneydoing any and everything.
Right?
If you just do a bit ofresearch, you can find
ways to monetize workthat you enjoy doing.
So those are the two thingsreflection and then research
and getting a plan of actiontogether on what are the steps
(06:25):
that it would take for you totransition into that field.
Jesse Butts (06:29):
You know, Let's say I've, I've gone through
this reflection and I've, I'vefigured out, These are things
I enjoy that I have some skillat and I have some aptitude.
How roughly does thatprocess work of translating
those skills to a job hunt.
Particularly if you'vebeen in academia.
You know, the skill at firstmight be teaching, but kind
(06:52):
of once you suss it out,it's, you know, comfortable
presenting in a large group.
Is there kind of a way to,to maybe break down some
of these skills into moreatomic particles and as we
kind of think about whatwe'd like to do instead?
Zakiya Akerele (07:06):
Yes, definitely.
There are many skillsthat can be used even
in freelancing, right?
So I'm thinking ofsomeone in academia.
Myself, I transitioned intofreelancing doing proofreading,
and editing, and things likethat because of my experience
as a professor reading papersand just having that research
and writing experience myself.
(07:26):
It doesn't have to be so broad.
It can be broken down intothings that you are skilled
at that can pretty much bringin an income while you're
even thinking about the largerthing that you want to do.
A lot of times people arejust looking at, Oh, I have
teaching and that's it.
But there are so many thingsthat teaching, or like
I mentioned, research orwriting or communication that
(07:48):
can transfer into differentavenues that will be able
to bring you in an income.
For example, right after Ifinished my doctorate, again,
I mentioned that it was verychallenging for me to find
work in religious studies.
Like people weren'tlooking for...
that wasn't in hot demand.
Right?
But I did find work in researchdoing research management.
(08:09):
And while they didn'tspecifically put, you know,
the degree that I had asa requirement, I was able
to lead with those skills.
I was able to secure aninterview and subsequently
become hired as a consultant,doing research, even though
the research backgroundwas completely different
because of that, that skill,that was transferable.
(08:30):
Also the organization thatI worked for, they were
particularly looking toconnect with individuals
in this community.
They were from another stateand they were doing research
specifically in Florida.
So not only did myskills matter, but my
connections mattered.
So I was able to leverage thepeople I knew, my connections
(08:53):
to the larger community tobe able to kind of show that
I was a resource to them.
So there are other thingsthat you have that you might
not be thinking are directlyrelated to work, but they are.
And if you lead withthose things, that's why
I wrote the book Dump YourDegree because most people
solely look at the degree.
What they have theeducational background in.
But that's not the end allbe all to transitioning, but
(09:16):
also to just getting higher,even within your field.
Jesse Butts (09:19):
How do you recommend people discover, I
guess, for lack of a betterterm, those maybe indirect
skills that ... like youwere talking about, with
research or like I mentioned,comfortable presenting
in front of large groups.
How do you recommend people,maybe unpack that a little bit?
Zakiya Akerele (09:38):
You know, one thing I've done is I've asked
friends that were close to me.
I said, If you could seeme doing something aside
from what you know meto do, what would it be?
What are, what are somethings that you think
that I am good at?
Because a lot of times peoplecan see things that you
can't see within yourself.
And that's helpedguide me as well.
I'm like, you know what?
I do enjoy doing that.
(09:59):
I never thought about that.
So people who you encounter ona regular basis may be able to
highlight some of your talentsthat you're not aware of.
Or that you, you takefor granted, so to speak.
Another thing would be,again, going back to
the reflection part.
Some things that we enjoyeddoing as children that we kind
of got conditioned away frombecause we were taught maybe
(10:21):
they weren't functional orthey didn't offer stability.
Sometimes those very passionsthat we had in our youth
could actually be somethingthat is in line with
our career down the road.
So whatever might just bea hobby, could actually
be your profession
Jesse Butts (10:37):
Yeah, I have to believe that I'm not the
only podcaster who askedtoo many questions as a
kid, and then decided tostart an interview show.
Zakiya Akerele (10:44):
Oh goodness.
I might need to get myson ready for a podcast.
Because that kid asks amillion questions a day.
Jesse Butts (10:50):
It's a, it's a great way to, to
do it and, and have fun.
But yeah, sorry forthat little tangent.
So, you know, in the processthat we've discussed, we've
reflected and figured out theskills and kind of the careers
that, that look interesting.
And we've kind of translatedmaybe that academic
(11:11):
language to professionallanguage, business language.
What do you do next?
S hould people just getthe resume ready and
jump on the job boards?
Or what do yourecommend at this point?
Zakiya Akerele (11:23):
I definitely don't recommend just jumping
on the job boards becauseunfortunately, when you have
AI that's skimming throughresumes, you might not be
translating what you have tooffer very well on a resume.
So I definitely...
yeah, of course, get it ready.
Have people look over it.
But be open to rethinkinghow you present your resume.
(11:47):
But also the main thingwould be to reach out
to your connections.
Right?
So people who are alreadyin your circle of influence,
your family, friends, lettingthem know, putting it out
there, Hey, I'm in theprocess of transitioning
from this field to another.
If you or anyone you know hasany insights or connections
or anything that could behelpful to me along this
(12:09):
journey, I'd appreciate it.
So first starting there, becauseit's really about who you know
in any industry, any field.
Who you know is much better thanwhat you know in many cases.
Of course you have toknow something in order
to do the job well.
But then I would also recommendgetting on social media,
particularly LinkedIn and otherjob sites because people need
(12:31):
to know that you're availableand they can know that by
you don't have to scream,Hey, I'm looking for this.
Even though that has beenhelpful to, to many people.
But also producing contentwithin that new field of
interest to showcase thatyou are familiar with it.
That you are open to helpingor adding value to others
(12:52):
within that particular field.
And just gettingyourself out there.
And then also checkingwith maybe alumni groups on
LinkedIn to see, like lookingat profiles, who's connected
in that industry as well thatyou can develop a relationship
with and say, Hey, this is, youknow, I see that we went, both,
went to X, Y, and Z school.
I'm really interested in this.
(13:13):
Do you have anyinsights for helping me
transition to this field?
But connections are very keyin making that transition.
I think even more so thanjust hopping on a job board.
Jesse Butts (13:23):
Have you found with your clients or with
yourself that connections,you know, maybe some close
ones and maybe, you know,somebody from undergrad that
you haven't talked in quite abit, are they generally pretty
open to grabbing a cup ofcoffee or whatever it might be?
Zakiya Akerele (13:38):
Yes, definitely.
But of course you don'twanna, come out like
salesy or, or needy orjust so focused on self.
You want to, like Isaid, build relationship.
You could start bybuilding a rapport first.
Mentioning somecommonalities, complimenting
some of their posts.
Letting them know, Hey, Ireally enjoyed this post that
(13:59):
you wrote about whatever it is.
But letting them know you'renot just there to be a taker.
But even if you're like in aposition where you're like,
Look, I see this job opening andthey're the right person for,
you know, me to get to in orderfor me to have this opportunity.
There are still some waysthat you can create a
conversational approach todeveloping the relationship
(14:19):
instead of just saying, Hey,can you help me get this job?
But I definitely see mostpeople want to help because
they've been there themselves.
Jesse Butts (14:27):
You mentioned too putting content out there
about what you're interestedin, what you want to be doing.
How do you put out contentwhere you know you're not
an expert, but you want tocome across as someone who
can do this role or be inthis occupation successfully?
Zakiya Akerele (14:50):
I've heard some advice from others that
say, You don't need to bean expert, but that you just
need to be more knowledgablein an area than someone who
doesn't know anything about it.
So having a first step, youmight have a first degree
knowledge in a particulararea, and you've developed
a level of skillset atthat level of knowledge
(15:12):
and putting that out there.
So say it's graphicdesign or some type of
artistic talent, right?
You don't have to be Picasso,but you might know how to
do some basic skills in thisand say, Hey, I am available.
Or look at what I've createdor I know how to make flyers.
Right?
You don't have to be anexpert for many years to have
(15:33):
some level of skill set thatpeople may find value in.
So don't set yourselfback saying, Oh, well,
I'm not there yet.
Many people are not there yet.
But also continuing your,your education journey, not
necessarily through highereducation in an institution
like going back to get anotherdegree, but maybe you get
certifications, both free andpaid courses that will help
(15:55):
you develop your skills sothat you continue to grow all
while also creating contentat every step of your journey.
Jesse Butts (16:03):
I, I assume you're, you're trying to
influence two main groups.
I'll call them peer influencers,you know, people who will say,
Okay, clearly Zakiya reallyknows what she's talking about.
I will recommend her or,you know, try to give her
a leg up wherever I can.
And then the other group I'mthinking about are the actual
hiring managers who need toknow that this person can do
(16:25):
X, Y, Z in the job and theybring this unique thing.
Is, is there anyone else weshould be considering when we're
creating this type of content?
Zakiya Akerele (16:35):
I would say yourself because a
lot of times we think ofhiring managers, we think of
recruiters, we think of thosegatekeepers or the people we
need to impress to get a job.
But you also have opportunity tocreate your own career without
going that route as well.
So, so for example, Imentioned freelancing
before or consulting, right?
(16:56):
So focusing on how to developskills that even if those
individuals aren't open tohiring you or bringing you on.
Your skill set is still at alevel where you can create job
opportunities for yourself.
So yes, definitelydevelop your skills.
Get, like I mentioned,certifications, take courses
that will help you inyour career development.
(17:18):
But also do that for yourselfso that at any time, where those
jobs might not be availableto you or they might not be
available right away, youstill have the opportunity
to earn an income and, andhave a career while you wait.
Jesse Butts (17:33):
And one thing I should probably clarify
too, when we're talking aboutcreating content, I know so
many think this means, Oh,I need to start a blog or a
YouTube or TikTok channel, butit's probably much broader and,
and you know, probably muchmore incremental than that.
Is, is that fair?
Zakiya Akerele (17:51):
Yes, definitely.
I know a lot of times...
even myself, I, I havethese grand ideas and I'm
like, I gotta jump and doeverything all at once.
And it's definitelyincremental as you mentioned.
Doing one or two things,learning those skills as
much as possible, or eventrying a little bit of them
all and, and seeing whichone feels best to you.
So a podcast works foryou, whereas someone
(18:13):
else it might not.
Right?
But a blog might be betterbecause they write better.
There are people like myselfwho are not big fans of social
media but have to get on thereand might not want to be on all
social media platforms at once.
So which one connects or alignsmore so with your personality
and the things that you enjoyand then focusing there.
Jesse Butts (18:35):
Let's say someone's in this journey.
They've been making connections.
They've been networking.
They've been producingcontent that shows their
skills, their aptitude.
Going into the job boardalone, it can be not the best
path, but is this somethingyou're doing simultaneously
with all these activities?
I guess I'm, I'm asking,ineloquently, How do all of
(18:58):
these activities coalesce intofinding and landing that job?
Zakiya Akerele (19:03):
Of course, many different approaches
at once can be helpful.
Right.
Because you never knowwhich one will land.
So yes, apply for jobs.
It depends on the field as well.
Right.
Because I know certain jobsreally it is about who you know,
who can open doors for you.
Whereas others you know, youmight have more luck by just
going out on a job board orposting your resume on LinkedIn.
(19:25):
And actually that is a good way.
At least letting recruitersknow that you're open.
Right.
I think there's a, a buttonthat you can press where
only the recruiters can seethat you're open for work.
So putting yourself outthere, applying for jobs,
connecting with connectionsand seeing what's available
or letting people know thatyou are available to add value
in whatever area this is.
(19:46):
Reaching out to alum.
All of those things can work.
And you have to just try themout to see which works best,
particularly for your industryand your career journey.
So, that's the approachthat I would take.
Of course, I would suggestdoing the relationship building
first and simultaneouslythroughout the whole journey
because typically makingthose connections helps
(20:08):
individuals land roles,more so and more often than
just going at it blind.
Jesse Butts (20:13):
Pretty early in the show, you mentioned
creating your own opportunities.
And you mentioned that,you know, this is an age
where with a little bit ofresearch, you can kind of make
money doing almost anything.
What exactly does thatmean, Creating your own
opportunities and making money?
I mean, does this mean youhave to be an entrepreneur
(20:34):
or a freelancer?
Are there ways to kind oftake this approach maybe, and
maybe we could define thata little bit, and still find
full-time employment if you'remore interested in working for
a company than working solo?
Zakiya Akerele (20:47):
Yes.
I definitely think, peopleshould, even if you are
working for a company, youshould always have something
in place where at any time,if you're let go, companies
close, what have you, you won'tjust be stuck high and dry.
Can't earn a living,can't pay your bills.
I know I was taught, Get agood job, it's stable, you
(21:07):
have benefits and then youretire and move on with life.
But we recognize that that'snot really a reality, right?
That stability is an illusion.
At any time, anythingcould happen.
So if you are workingfor others, still develop
your career in a way whereyou're doing things on the
side that won't stress youand take too much time.
(21:29):
But that at any time, if youare let go, you still have
something to fall back on.
I know we used to saythat about degrees.
Oh, that getting a degreeor getting even, a, a
graduate degree, it'll giveyou the opportunity to have
something to fall back on.
But we are seeing now thatnot even the degrees alone
um, offering that opportunity.
So, having multiple streamsof income or opportunities
(21:51):
to create income is key.
Whether that's throughfreelancing, whether that's
through consulting, whetherthat's through content
creation, because we seecontent creators are getting
paid substantially now.
Whatever that is, that is inalignment with something that
you enjoy, which would be mypreference, something that
you're passionate about, sothat at least when you're doing
(22:11):
it, it doesn't feel like, Oh,this is an extra labor that I'm
adding on to my full-time job.
Jesse Butts (22:17):
And I'm glad you brought up degrees
again, because I, I wantedto circle back to that Dump
Your Degree, and kind ofhow literally to take that.
For example, I I have a master'sin writing and publishing, and
I primarily work in marketing.
And I haven't led with mydegree, but when people hear
you have a master's in writing,you know, in marketing,
(22:38):
there's a ton of writing.
So people are glad to hear that.
And I feel like most jobs,in general, you know, they're
like, Oh, and Jesse has astrong writing background.
That's that's valuable.
One guest in particular,she had a PhD in literature.
And she said that was astumbling block for employers
because they assumed, Ohmy God, this person's gonna
analyze everything to death.
(22:59):
They're going to putin all of this, arcane,
esoteric vocabulary.
And, you know, it was a, alittle bit of a roadblock.
And she kind of deemphasizedthat, and how do we,
or when should we kindof dump the degree?
Like what points in thejob process should we
be maybe emphasizing ordeemphasizing, our graduate
(23:22):
degree specifically.
Zakiya Akerele (23:24):
When you see that it's not
opening opportunitiesfor you in your career.
I learned early on right afterfinishing my PhD probably within
the first six months or so.
And I was like, this is notworking, so I figured out ways
to structure ... back then wewere using cover letters more.
I don't think peopleread them as much now.
But I was emphasizing more somy talents and skills and the
(23:47):
things that I could bring ofvalue to that role as opposed
to the degrees, especiallywhen I was interviewing.
And to be honest with you, therewere times that I actually took
a degree or two off of my resumeto apply for certain jobs.
And that was because I knewthat people would have a
bias in the hiring processbecause they thought, Okay,
(24:08):
this person is overqualified.
Ironically, some of those jobswere paying the same amount
or at the same level as thosewere, that were requiring
my level of education, eventhough I took the degrees off.
So you have to reallyplay around with it.
It's a case by case situation.
But when you see that people maybe thinking you're overqualified
(24:31):
or there's not a direct matchor they're overlooking the
skills that you might have tooffer as opposed to, Oh, this
person is highly educated.
And they might, like yousaid, be bringing in all this
stuff that we don't need.
I would suggest yourevisiting how you could
deemphasize your degrees.
Jesse Butts (24:49):
Is it just things that they don't need?
Or do they sometimes havea concern, I don't wanna
pay for somebody who,you know, has, multiple
degrees, they might thinkthat they need to earn more.
Is that ever a concernor, or not particularly?
Zakiya Akerele (25:01):
I have had that happen where I
was in a job interview.
It was related, I wannasay to like writing or I
can't remember what it was.
Many years ago, but itwasn't, definitely wasn't
related to my degrees.
And the person was like, Oh,HR says you wanna earn top
dollar because you have a PhD.
You know, they kind ofbrought their bias with them
(25:24):
in the interview process.
And I actually had one personalexperience where I was hired.
I did not let themknow that I had a PhD.
I did let them knowthat I had a master's.
I was hired and I was onthe process of transitioning
out of that role.
And so they were lookingfor people to fill my
position in others.
And I overheard the managerwho was in the process of
(25:46):
looking through resumes saying,Oh, this person has a PhD.
What does she want this job for?
And they were about to,you know, basically throw
hers to the side becauseof her level of education.
And I don't think I wassupposed to hear that.
And it, it convicted me ina way, cause I was like,
Okay, should I say something?
They don't know I haveone, but I overheard this.
(26:07):
And I said, You know what?
You don't know why thisperson needs this role.
And I don't thinkthe person had a PhD.
I think they were a PhD student.
I explained to her,I said I have a PhD.
I didn't put that on my resumewhen you all were hiring me.
I was on my way out ofthe door at this time,
so it didn't matter.
And I explained to her that shemay be more than capable to do
(26:28):
this role and you're adding biasbased on her level of education.
And she was shocked.
That ended the conversation.
It was pleasant.
It wasn't, you know, itwasn't uncomfortable.
I just had to behonest with her.
So, yeah, there are timeswhere people just look
at it like, oh, why wouldthis person want this job?
Or we are gonna haveto pay them more.
Or, it is.
Jesse Butts (26:48):
Are there any other aspects of I'll call it the
dumping your degree philosophy?
Any kind of bigger thingswe haven't mentioned in
the idea of dumping yourdegree when you look for,
for different work that wehaven't touched upon yet?
Zakiya Akerele (27:02):
Really the title is not to be taken literally.
It's more so to say, Hey, let'sput it to the side for a minute.
Right?
Cause a lot of times, especiallywith my students, where they
were about to graduate, andI'm teaching undergrads.
And they're like, Oh as soonas I get this degree, jobs
are just gonna be lining up.
And I'm like, No,that's not how it works.
(27:24):
So you might not want to leador only focus on the degree,
meaning they do themselves adisservice by not looking at
their talents, not looking attheir skills, not looking at
their connections and looking athow all of those things together
will create the opportunity.
Not just the degree.
So many people have beentold, Oh, get the degree.
(27:46):
I was told that, Get the degree,you'll get the job at the end.
It feels like everybodyhas a degree now.
Like who doesn't have a degree?
And then the way it's, it'sgoing, many people are even
getting graduate degrees inorder to, they feel like they
need them to better theirchances in the job market.
Or stand out fromthe competition.
So really there's adevaluing of many degrees.
(28:09):
And so what do you do whenyou and everybody else has
that same degree and they'reapplying for the same job?
What do you have that isdifferent from them that
will add more value to thatrole and to that company?
So that's what I meanby dumping your degree.
You can dump it andsay, You know what?
I'm not going to work inthis field ever again.
I'm gonna transition mycareer and I'm gonna look at
(28:30):
something completely different.
Something that I mightnot even have a degree in.
And that's fine too.
But either way, whether it'sa figurative dumping of your
degree or a literal dumpingof your degree, I just want
you to be able to focus onyour skills, your talent, your
connections, and other thingsthat you have that will be
valuable to whatever, you know,your career journey looks like.
Jesse Butts (28:52):
One thing that you've brought up a few times
is you recommend people findingwork they enjoy versus just
approaching like work is work.
It's something that occupiesme between nine to five.
But you know, it doesseem that there's quite a
spectrum of enjoyable work.
There's, Yeah, I, I, I kindof like it to like, I love it.
(29:13):
I'm obsessed.
This is my purpose in life.
How do we determine, I guessthat level of enjoyment
that makes sense forus as we look for work.
You know, especially comingout of grad school where,
I mean, we've spent somuch time and energy in our
field and, for listenersto this podcast, they've
(29:33):
decided that that just isn'tworking out for them anymore.
So they're very used toputting their heart, soul,
and mind into their work.
What do you do after that?
Like how do you approachthat enjoyment in work?
Zakiya Akerele (29:49):
There are different degrees of enjoyment.
For example, I had a, aroommate in college who enjoyed,
literally enjoyed, cleaningso much so she started a
cleaning business, even thoughI forgot what her degree was...
it was somethingrelated to music.
So she had a passion for music,but also started a cleaning
business because she said it, ithelped her decompress, relieve
(30:12):
stress, things like that.
The way we look at work, whenwe think of work, we think
it has to be something sobright and shiny and amazing.
But it doesn't have to be atthat level to be enjoyable,
to be something you evenare passionate about.
So I would definitelyjust strip away all of the
outside noise and reflect on,What is it that you enjoy?
(30:34):
Even if it's something that youwould consider menial things.
A lot of times people's hobbiesor just mundane things that they
find pleasure in are ways thatthey can develop a career that
are often overlooked becauseeverybody's gunning for the
corner office or somethingbig and bright, you know?
And there's nothing wrongwith either, but I'm just
(30:55):
saying that people should bemore reflective on looking at
what it is that they enjoy.
Jesse Butts (31:00):
How big of a role should work play in life?
I mean, should it bestrictly nine to five?
Is there something wrongwhen people love their work
and want to spend, I don'tknow, 60 hours a week at it?
How do you tend to adviseyour, your clients or
readers in this respect?
Zakiya (31:17):
Whatever works for them.
I come from a family...
like my grandfather,he was working all the
way into his eighties.
And we had to stop him.
Right.
He would've still beenworking if we didn't say,
Hey, you need to sit out.
There are people like that,that just find passion
and drive in their work.
And that's what motivates them.
They can't sit down.
(31:37):
And then there are otherslike myself who are maybe
more on the opposite end.
Like I wanna do aslittle work as possible.
I prefer to spend timewith having experiences,
whether it's throughtraveling with my family.
And then also there are peoplethat are probably in the middle.
It just...
what works for you, but alsowhat works for those that
(31:57):
you were responsible for.
Because I know that thereare some people that are so
focused on work that theyneglect not only themselves,
but their families.
That's not a good thing, right?
So if people around youwho you care about and
love are not happy with howyou're working, you might
wanna shift some things.
But if you're at a point inyour life where you're the only
person that matters, you know,you only have yourself to be
(32:17):
responsible for, and you enjoyworking 60 hours a week, fine.
Make sure that you're takingcare of yourself though.
I don't recommend peoplefocusing on work just as, I
have to do this to survive.
I really recommend people lookfor things that they enjoy,
that they find pleasure in.
Or if they can't find work inthat, or if the work doesn't
(32:39):
give them that feeling that theyfind a way to do that work, the
least amount of time possible.
So if you're working, ifthere's a way for you to
work for yourself, onlya few hours a week, fine.
If that is a fewhours a day, fine.
But make sure you havetime to enjoy life.
Not just make workthe focus of it.
Jesse Butts (32:59):
So beyond your book, Dump Your
Degree, are there any otherresources that you would
recommend for our listeners?
Zakiya Akerele (33:05):
Yes, I would recommend if you're in the
process of transitioningyour career, there are
career transition coaches andprograms that help people who
are looking to transition.
Cause sometimes you needsomebody to guide you along
that transition journey.
I offer services primarily ingroup settings in that way, but
there are also other avenuesto approach that as well.
(33:28):
Just doing a little researchonline and typing in career
transition consulting orcareer transition coaching.
Jesse Butts (33:34):
Where can people find your book
and more about you?
Zakiya Akerele (33:37):
Yes.
My book is available onAmazon, Barnes and Noble,
Walmart, many online retailers.
Or you can go toZakiyaAkerele.com and my
book is available throughmy website as well.
And that's whereyou can find me.
I'm also on Facebook, TikTok,and Instagram @ZakiyaAkerele.
Jesse Butts (33:55):
All right.
And I'll be sure to includeall that in the show notes.
Well, Zakiya thank youagain for joining us.
This was a wonderfulconversation.
Zakiya Akerele (34:02):
Thank you for having me.
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining mefor another episode.
I'm your host Jesse Butts.
Today we have a bonusepisode featuring Zakiya
Akerele, a PhD in religiouseducation from Fordham and the
author of Dump Your Degree.
Zakiya has been kind enoughto join us to chat about
her expertise helpingadvanced degree holders
control their careers.
(00:43):
Zakiya welcome to the show.
Thanks for joining us.
Zakiya Akerele (00:46):
Thank you for having me.
Jesse Butts (00:47):
Absolutely.
So before we talk aboutyour book and the process
that you've identified,can you tell us a little
bit about your own journey?
For example, what happened withyour career after earning your
PhD in religious education?
Zakiya Akerele (01:01):
Yeah.
So I had finishedmy degree in 2010.
And at that time we werein a recession or maybe
trying to come out of one.
Regardless, I met alot of challenges in
finding employment.
I wanted to join academia,become a professor and
I just was not findingfull-time employment.
(01:23):
I did some adjuncting.
Not too much in my field butfound some adjunct roles.
But after having gonethrough these transitions
of unemployment andunderemployment, I tried to
figure out a way that I could dowork that I enjoyed by creating
my own opportunities and notwaiting for someone to hire me.
(01:45):
So for about three years, I didsome consulting work, research,
not necessarily directlyrelated to my educational
background, but that was ableto transfer the skills that I
had acquired in higher educationwere able to transfer into
those roles and positions.
And from that, I realizedthat there were many
things that I enjoyed doingoutside of higher education.
(02:08):
So it allowed me todevelop my CV in a, in a
different, in a unique way.
But I subsequently endedup becoming a professor for
about five or six years.
I, I was on a tenure trackin religious studies.
I took a break between thosefive years and did some world
traveling and came back to it.
And after that transitionedinto being a full-time author.
Jesse Butts (02:30):
Just out of curiosity, what was your area
of focus in religious studies?
Zakiya Akerele (02:34):
Well, I primarily focused on African
traditional spirituality.
And taught courses in womenin religion, but primarily
African and African American.
Jesse Butts (02:44):
Okay.
So how long have you been,I believe you used the
term full-time author, ifI'm remembering correctly,
how long have you beenin that line of work?
Zakiya Akerele (02:53):
So it started during the pandemic.
I was still teaching andat the time I was, I was
pregnant with my second child.
And in the middle ofthe pandemic and I
didn't know what to do.
I was teaching inthe state of Florida.
So I don't know if peoplefollow Florida politics too
well, but the way they weresituating things were a little
different from other states.
(03:15):
And there was a requirementfor me to go back into
the classroom in person.
And I had just given birthmaybe less than two months
on top of it still being inthe heat of the pandemic.
And I just was not interestedin, in doing that, going
back into the classroom.
So I took family leave.
(03:35):
And after that endedup not going back.
Jesse Butts (03:39):
Before we, we kind of dive into your book,
was that a hard transitionto move away from teaching?
Or was it something that at thatpoint you kind of felt like, I'm
ready for something different?
Zakiya Akerele (03:52):
Yes, I was ready for something different.
Definitely.
I love teaching.
And I particularly love teachingin the area that I taught in.
I'm passionate about worldreligions in general.
But also just teachingabout culture and how people
evolved and developed.
But I realized that Ialso like my freedom.
(04:12):
And while higher educationgave me freedom that
many people don't get.
Right?
So I only taught duringthe fall and spring.
So I had my summers off ifI wanted to, sometimes I
did teach during summers.
But I still wanted more freedomto be able to do things, to
be able to spend with myfamily when I wanted to.
And having someone else createa schedule for me wasn't working
(04:35):
for my life at that time.
So it was, it was alittle bittersweet.
I, I loved the classroom,but I also was ready to
transition out of it.
Jesse Butts (04:45):
Yeah I mean, a pretty, pretty common
tale on, on the podcast.
So Zakiya, I, I thinkperhaps the best way to
approach your book, Dump YourDegree, is to run through
kind of the hypotheticalthat the show is based on.
So let's say you're in gradschool or maybe you've
been out a few years andyou don't feel like you want
(05:07):
to pursue what you studied.
You know, whether thatwould be joining academia
or being a practitioner ofsome sort in your discipline.
What do you do whenyou're in that situation?
Where do you even start inyour approach to all this?
Zakiya Akerele (05:21):
Yes.
I, I would definitely startwith a bit of reflection to
see what it is you enjoy doing.
I'm a proponent ofdoing what you enjoy.
I know a lot of peoplesay, Well, work is work.
It pays the bills,or what have you.
But I wish more peoplewould enjoy the work.
And even feel passionateabout the work that they do.
So reflecting on things youenjoy, things that you're
talented, naturally talented at.
(05:43):
And things that youhave skills in, right?
That you might have developed,whether it's through your
journey through highereducation or skills that you've
developed, maybe you wereself taught in an area, but
something that you know, thatyou can do professionally.
And after kind of reflectingon what are the things that
I enjoy, what are the thingsthat I'm good at, then
doing some research on howthose skills, those talents
(06:04):
can be used in a career.
We live in a, a great timein, in history where you
can pretty much make moneydoing any and everything.
Right?
If you just do a bit ofresearch, you can find
ways to monetize workthat you enjoy doing.
So those are the two thingsreflection and then research
and getting a plan of actiontogether on what are the steps
(06:25):
that it would take for you totransition into that field.
Jesse Butts (06:29):
You know, Let's say I've, I've gone through
this reflection and I've, I'vefigured out, These are things
I enjoy that I have some skillat and I have some aptitude.
How roughly does thatprocess work of translating
those skills to a job hunt.
Particularly if you'vebeen in academia.
You know, the skill at firstmight be teaching, but kind
(06:52):
of once you suss it out,it's, you know, comfortable
presenting in a large group.
Is there kind of a way to,to maybe break down some
of these skills into moreatomic particles and as we
kind of think about whatwe'd like to do instead?
Zakiya Akerele (07:06):
Yes, definitely.
There are many skillsthat can be used even
in freelancing, right?
So I'm thinking ofsomeone in academia.
Myself, I transitioned intofreelancing doing proofreading,
and editing, and things likethat because of my experience
as a professor reading papersand just having that research
and writing experience myself.
(07:26):
It doesn't have to be so broad.
It can be broken down intothings that you are skilled
at that can pretty much bringin an income while you're
even thinking about the largerthing that you want to do.
A lot of times people arejust looking at, Oh, I have
teaching and that's it.
But there are so many thingsthat teaching, or like
I mentioned, research orwriting or communication that
(07:48):
can transfer into differentavenues that will be able
to bring you in an income.
For example, right after Ifinished my doctorate, again,
I mentioned that it was verychallenging for me to find
work in religious studies.
Like people weren'tlooking for...
that wasn't in hot demand.
Right?
But I did find work in researchdoing research management.
(08:09):
And while they didn'tspecifically put, you know,
the degree that I had asa requirement, I was able
to lead with those skills.
I was able to secure aninterview and subsequently
become hired as a consultant,doing research, even though
the research backgroundwas completely different
because of that, that skill,that was transferable.
(08:30):
Also the organization thatI worked for, they were
particularly looking toconnect with individuals
in this community.
They were from another stateand they were doing research
specifically in Florida.
So not only did myskills matter, but my
connections mattered.
So I was able to leverage thepeople I knew, my connections
(08:53):
to the larger community tobe able to kind of show that
I was a resource to them.
So there are other thingsthat you have that you might
not be thinking are directlyrelated to work, but they are.
And if you lead withthose things, that's why
I wrote the book Dump YourDegree because most people
solely look at the degree.
What they have theeducational background in.
But that's not the end allbe all to transitioning, but
(09:16):
also to just getting higher,even within your field.
Jesse Butts (09:19):
How do you recommend people discover, I
guess, for lack of a betterterm, those maybe indirect
skills that ... like youwere talking about, with
research or like I mentioned,comfortable presenting
in front of large groups.
How do you recommend people,maybe unpack that a little bit?
Zakiya Akerele (09:38):
You know, one thing I've done is I've asked
friends that were close to me.
I said, If you could seeme doing something aside
from what you know meto do, what would it be?
What are, what are somethings that you think
that I am good at?
Because a lot of times peoplecan see things that you
can't see within yourself.
And that's helpedguide me as well.
I'm like, you know what?
I do enjoy doing that.
(09:59):
I never thought about that.
So people who you encounter ona regular basis may be able to
highlight some of your talentsthat you're not aware of.
Or that you, you takefor granted, so to speak.
Another thing would be,again, going back to
the reflection part.
Some things that we enjoyeddoing as children that we kind
of got conditioned away frombecause we were taught maybe
(10:21):
they weren't functional orthey didn't offer stability.
Sometimes those very passionsthat we had in our youth
could actually be somethingthat is in line with
our career down the road.
So whatever might just bea hobby, could actually
be your profession
Jesse Butts (10:37):
Yeah, I have to believe that I'm not the
only podcaster who askedtoo many questions as a
kid, and then decided tostart an interview show.
Zakiya Akerele (10:44):
Oh goodness.
I might need to get myson ready for a podcast.
Because that kid asks amillion questions a day.
Jesse Butts (10:50):
It's a, it's a great way to, to
do it and, and have fun.
But yeah, sorry forthat little tangent.
So, you know, in the processthat we've discussed, we've
reflected and figured out theskills and kind of the careers
that, that look interesting.
And we've kind of translatedmaybe that academic
(11:11):
language to professionallanguage, business language.
What do you do next?
S hould people just getthe resume ready and
jump on the job boards?
Or what do yourecommend at this point?
Zakiya Akerele (11:23):
I definitely don't recommend just jumping
on the job boards becauseunfortunately, when you have
AI that's skimming throughresumes, you might not be
translating what you have tooffer very well on a resume.
So I definitely...
yeah, of course, get it ready.
Have people look over it.
But be open to rethinkinghow you present your resume.
(11:47):
But also the main thingwould be to reach out
to your connections.
Right?
So people who are alreadyin your circle of influence,
your family, friends, lettingthem know, putting it out
there, Hey, I'm in theprocess of transitioning
from this field to another.
If you or anyone you know hasany insights or connections
or anything that could behelpful to me along this
(12:09):
journey, I'd appreciate it.
So first starting there, becauseit's really about who you know
in any industry, any field.
Who you know is much better thanwhat you know in many cases.
Of course you have toknow something in order
to do the job well.
But then I would also recommendgetting on social media,
particularly LinkedIn and otherjob sites because people need
(12:31):
to know that you're availableand they can know that by
you don't have to scream,Hey, I'm looking for this.
Even though that has beenhelpful to, to many people.
But also producing contentwithin that new field of
interest to showcase thatyou are familiar with it.
That you are open to helpingor adding value to others
(12:52):
within that particular field.
And just gettingyourself out there.
And then also checkingwith maybe alumni groups on
LinkedIn to see, like lookingat profiles, who's connected
in that industry as well thatyou can develop a relationship
with and say, Hey, this is, youknow, I see that we went, both,
went to X, Y, and Z school.
I'm really interested in this.
(13:13):
Do you have anyinsights for helping me
transition to this field?
But connections are very keyin making that transition.
I think even more so thanjust hopping on a job board.
Jesse Butts (13:23):
Have you found with your clients or with
yourself that connections,you know, maybe some close
ones and maybe, you know,somebody from undergrad that
you haven't talked in quite abit, are they generally pretty
open to grabbing a cup ofcoffee or whatever it might be?
Zakiya Akerele (13:38):
Yes, definitely.
But of course you don'twanna, come out like
salesy or, or needy orjust so focused on self.
You want to, like Isaid, build relationship.
You could start bybuilding a rapport first.
Mentioning somecommonalities, complimenting
some of their posts.
Letting them know, Hey, Ireally enjoyed this post that
(13:59):
you wrote about whatever it is.
But letting them know you'renot just there to be a taker.
But even if you're like in aposition where you're like,
Look, I see this job opening andthey're the right person for,
you know, me to get to in orderfor me to have this opportunity.
There are still some waysthat you can create a
conversational approach todeveloping the relationship
(14:19):
instead of just saying, Hey,can you help me get this job?
But I definitely see mostpeople want to help because
they've been there themselves.
Jesse Butts (14:27):
You mentioned too putting content out there
about what you're interestedin, what you want to be doing.
How do you put out contentwhere you know you're not
an expert, but you want tocome across as someone who
can do this role or be inthis occupation successfully?
Zakiya Akerele (14:50):
I've heard some advice from others that
say, You don't need to bean expert, but that you just
need to be more knowledgablein an area than someone who
doesn't know anything about it.
So having a first step, youmight have a first degree
knowledge in a particulararea, and you've developed
a level of skillset atthat level of knowledge
(15:12):
and putting that out there.
So say it's graphicdesign or some type of
artistic talent, right?
You don't have to be Picasso,but you might know how to
do some basic skills in thisand say, Hey, I am available.
Or look at what I've createdor I know how to make flyers.
Right?
You don't have to be anexpert for many years to have
(15:33):
some level of skill set thatpeople may find value in.
So don't set yourselfback saying, Oh, well,
I'm not there yet.
Many people are not there yet.
But also continuing your,your education journey, not
necessarily through highereducation in an institution
like going back to get anotherdegree, but maybe you get
certifications, both free andpaid courses that will help
(15:55):
you develop your skills sothat you continue to grow all
while also creating contentat every step of your journey.
Jesse Butts (16:03):
I, I assume you're, you're trying to
influence two main groups.
I'll call them peer influencers,you know, people who will say,
Okay, clearly Zakiya reallyknows what she's talking about.
I will recommend her or,you know, try to give her
a leg up wherever I can.
And then the other group I'mthinking about are the actual
hiring managers who need toknow that this person can do
(16:25):
X, Y, Z in the job and theybring this unique thing.
Is, is there anyone else weshould be considering when we're
creating this type of content?
Zakiya Akerele (16:35):
I would say yourself because a
lot of times we think ofhiring managers, we think of
recruiters, we think of thosegatekeepers or the people we
need to impress to get a job.
But you also have opportunity tocreate your own career without
going that route as well.
So, so for example, Imentioned freelancing
before or consulting, right?
(16:56):
So focusing on how to developskills that even if those
individuals aren't open tohiring you or bringing you on.
Your skill set is still at alevel where you can create job
opportunities for yourself.
So yes, definitelydevelop your skills.
Get, like I mentioned,certifications, take courses
that will help you inyour career development.
(17:18):
But also do that for yourselfso that at any time, where those
jobs might not be availableto you or they might not be
available right away, youstill have the opportunity
to earn an income and, andhave a career while you wait.
Jesse Butts (17:33):
And one thing I should probably clarify
too, when we're talking aboutcreating content, I know so
many think this means, Oh,I need to start a blog or a
YouTube or TikTok channel, butit's probably much broader and,
and you know, probably muchmore incremental than that.
Is, is that fair?
Zakiya Akerele (17:51):
Yes, definitely.
I know a lot of times...
even myself, I, I havethese grand ideas and I'm
like, I gotta jump and doeverything all at once.
And it's definitelyincremental as you mentioned.
Doing one or two things,learning those skills as
much as possible, or eventrying a little bit of them
all and, and seeing whichone feels best to you.
So a podcast works foryou, whereas someone
(18:13):
else it might not.
Right?
But a blog might be betterbecause they write better.
There are people like myselfwho are not big fans of social
media but have to get on thereand might not want to be on all
social media platforms at once.
So which one connects or alignsmore so with your personality
and the things that you enjoyand then focusing there.
Jesse Butts (18:35):
Let's say someone's in this journey.
They've been making connections.
They've been networking.
They've been producingcontent that shows their
skills, their aptitude.
Going into the job boardalone, it can be not the best
path, but is this somethingyou're doing simultaneously
with all these activities?
I guess I'm, I'm asking,ineloquently, How do all of
(18:58):
these activities coalesce intofinding and landing that job?
Zakiya Akerele (19:03):
Of course, many different approaches
at once can be helpful.
Right.
Because you never knowwhich one will land.
So yes, apply for jobs.
It depends on the field as well.
Right.
Because I know certain jobsreally it is about who you know,
who can open doors for you.
Whereas others you know, youmight have more luck by just
going out on a job board orposting your resume on LinkedIn.
(19:25):
And actually that is a good way.
At least letting recruitersknow that you're open.
Right.
I think there's a, a buttonthat you can press where
only the recruiters can seethat you're open for work.
So putting yourself outthere, applying for jobs,
connecting with connectionsand seeing what's available
or letting people know thatyou are available to add value
in whatever area this is.
(19:46):
Reaching out to alum.
All of those things can work.
And you have to just try themout to see which works best,
particularly for your industryand your career journey.
So, that's the approachthat I would take.
Of course, I would suggestdoing the relationship building
first and simultaneouslythroughout the whole journey
because typically makingthose connections helps
(20:08):
individuals land roles,more so and more often than
just going at it blind.
Jesse Butts (20:13):
Pretty early in the show, you mentioned
creating your own opportunities.
And you mentioned that,you know, this is an age
where with a little bit ofresearch, you can kind of make
money doing almost anything.
What exactly does thatmean, Creating your own
opportunities and making money?
I mean, does this mean youhave to be an entrepreneur
(20:34):
or a freelancer?
Are there ways to kind oftake this approach maybe, and
maybe we could define thata little bit, and still find
full-time employment if you'remore interested in working for
a company than working solo?
Zakiya Akerele (20:47):
Yes.
I definitely think, peopleshould, even if you are
working for a company, youshould always have something
in place where at any time,if you're let go, companies
close, what have you, you won'tjust be stuck high and dry.
Can't earn a living,can't pay your bills.
I know I was taught, Get agood job, it's stable, you
(21:07):
have benefits and then youretire and move on with life.
But we recognize that that'snot really a reality, right?
That stability is an illusion.
At any time, anythingcould happen.
So if you are workingfor others, still develop
your career in a way whereyou're doing things on the
side that won't stress youand take too much time.
(21:29):
But that at any time, if youare let go, you still have
something to fall back on.
I know we used to saythat about degrees.
Oh, that getting a degreeor getting even, a, a
graduate degree, it'll giveyou the opportunity to have
something to fall back on.
But we are seeing now thatnot even the degrees alone
um, offering that opportunity.
So, having multiple streamsof income or opportunities
(21:51):
to create income is key.
Whether that's throughfreelancing, whether that's
through consulting, whetherthat's through content
creation, because we seecontent creators are getting
paid substantially now.
Whatever that is, that is inalignment with something that
you enjoy, which would be mypreference, something that
you're passionate about, sothat at least when you're doing
(22:11):
it, it doesn't feel like, Oh,this is an extra labor that I'm
adding on to my full-time job.
Jesse Butts (22:17):
And I'm glad you brought up degrees
again, because I, I wantedto circle back to that Dump
Your Degree, and kind ofhow literally to take that.
For example, I I have a master'sin writing and publishing, and
I primarily work in marketing.
And I haven't led with mydegree, but when people hear
you have a master's in writing,you know, in marketing,
(22:38):
there's a ton of writing.
So people are glad to hear that.
And I feel like most jobs,in general, you know, they're
like, Oh, and Jesse has astrong writing background.
That's that's valuable.
One guest in particular,she had a PhD in literature.
And she said that was astumbling block for employers
because they assumed, Ohmy God, this person's gonna
analyze everything to death.
(22:59):
They're going to putin all of this, arcane,
esoteric vocabulary.
And, you know, it was a, alittle bit of a roadblock.
And she kind of deemphasizedthat, and how do we,
or when should we kindof dump the degree?
Like what points in thejob process should we
be maybe emphasizing ordeemphasizing, our graduate
(23:22):
degree specifically.
Zakiya Akerele (23:24):
When you see that it's not
opening opportunitiesfor you in your career.
I learned early on right afterfinishing my PhD probably within
the first six months or so.
And I was like, this is notworking, so I figured out ways
to structure ... back then wewere using cover letters more.
I don't think peopleread them as much now.
But I was emphasizing more somy talents and skills and the
(23:47):
things that I could bring ofvalue to that role as opposed
to the degrees, especiallywhen I was interviewing.
And to be honest with you, therewere times that I actually took
a degree or two off of my resumeto apply for certain jobs.
And that was because I knewthat people would have a
bias in the hiring processbecause they thought, Okay,
(24:08):
this person is overqualified.
Ironically, some of those jobswere paying the same amount
or at the same level as thosewere, that were requiring
my level of education, eventhough I took the degrees off.
So you have to reallyplay around with it.
It's a case by case situation.
But when you see that people maybe thinking you're overqualified
(24:31):
or there's not a direct matchor they're overlooking the
skills that you might have tooffer as opposed to, Oh, this
person is highly educated.
And they might, like yousaid, be bringing in all this
stuff that we don't need.
I would suggest yourevisiting how you could
deemphasize your degrees.
Jesse Butts (24:49):
Is it just things that they don't need?
Or do they sometimes havea concern, I don't wanna
pay for somebody who,you know, has, multiple
degrees, they might thinkthat they need to earn more.
Is that ever a concernor, or not particularly?
Zakiya Akerele (25:01):
I have had that happen where I
was in a job interview.
It was related, I wannasay to like writing or I
can't remember what it was.
Many years ago, but itwasn't, definitely wasn't
related to my degrees.
And the person was like, Oh,HR says you wanna earn top
dollar because you have a PhD.
You know, they kind ofbrought their bias with them
(25:24):
in the interview process.
And I actually had one personalexperience where I was hired.
I did not let themknow that I had a PhD.
I did let them knowthat I had a master's.
I was hired and I was onthe process of transitioning
out of that role.
And so they were lookingfor people to fill my
position in others.
And I overheard the managerwho was in the process of
(25:46):
looking through resumes saying,Oh, this person has a PhD.
What does she want this job for?
And they were about to,you know, basically throw
hers to the side becauseof her level of education.
And I don't think I wassupposed to hear that.
And it, it convicted me ina way, cause I was like,
Okay, should I say something?
They don't know I haveone, but I overheard this.
(26:07):
And I said, You know what?
You don't know why thisperson needs this role.
And I don't thinkthe person had a PhD.
I think they were a PhD student.
I explained to her,I said I have a PhD.
I didn't put that on my resumewhen you all were hiring me.
I was on my way out ofthe door at this time,
so it didn't matter.
And I explained to her that shemay be more than capable to do
(26:28):
this role and you're adding biasbased on her level of education.
And she was shocked.
That ended the conversation.
It was pleasant.
It wasn't, you know, itwasn't uncomfortable.
I just had to behonest with her.
So, yeah, there are timeswhere people just look
at it like, oh, why wouldthis person want this job?
Or we are gonna haveto pay them more.
Or, it is.
Jesse Butts (26:48):
Are there any other aspects of I'll call it the
dumping your degree philosophy?
Any kind of bigger thingswe haven't mentioned in
the idea of dumping yourdegree when you look for,
for different work that wehaven't touched upon yet?
Zakiya Akerele (27:02):
Really the title is not to be taken literally.
It's more so to say, Hey, let'sput it to the side for a minute.
Right?
Cause a lot of times, especiallywith my students, where they
were about to graduate, andI'm teaching undergrads.
And they're like, Oh as soonas I get this degree, jobs
are just gonna be lining up.
And I'm like, No,that's not how it works.
(27:24):
So you might not want to leador only focus on the degree,
meaning they do themselves adisservice by not looking at
their talents, not looking attheir skills, not looking at
their connections and looking athow all of those things together
will create the opportunity.
Not just the degree.
So many people have beentold, Oh, get the degree.
(27:46):
I was told that, Get the degree,you'll get the job at the end.
It feels like everybodyhas a degree now.
Like who doesn't have a degree?
And then the way it's, it'sgoing, many people are even
getting graduate degrees inorder to, they feel like they
need them to better theirchances in the job market.
Or stand out fromthe competition.
So really there's adevaluing of many degrees.
(28:09):
And so what do you do whenyou and everybody else has
that same degree and they'reapplying for the same job?
What do you have that isdifferent from them that
will add more value to thatrole and to that company?
So that's what I meanby dumping your degree.
You can dump it andsay, You know what?
I'm not going to work inthis field ever again.
I'm gonna transition mycareer and I'm gonna look at
(28:30):
something completely different.
Something that I mightnot even have a degree in.
And that's fine too.
But either way, whether it'sa figurative dumping of your
degree or a literal dumpingof your degree, I just want
you to be able to focus onyour skills, your talent, your
connections, and other thingsthat you have that will be
valuable to whatever, you know,your career journey looks like.
Jesse Butts (28:52):
One thing that you've brought up a few times
is you recommend people findingwork they enjoy versus just
approaching like work is work.
It's something that occupiesme between nine to five.
But you know, it doesseem that there's quite a
spectrum of enjoyable work.
There's, Yeah, I, I, I kindof like it to like, I love it.
(29:13):
I'm obsessed.
This is my purpose in life.
How do we determine, I guessthat level of enjoyment
that makes sense forus as we look for work.
You know, especially comingout of grad school where,
I mean, we've spent somuch time and energy in our
field and, for listenersto this podcast, they've
(29:33):
decided that that just isn'tworking out for them anymore.
So they're very used toputting their heart, soul,
and mind into their work.
What do you do after that?
Like how do you approachthat enjoyment in work?
Zakiya Akerele (29:49):
There are different degrees of enjoyment.
For example, I had a, aroommate in college who enjoyed,
literally enjoyed, cleaningso much so she started a
cleaning business, even thoughI forgot what her degree was...
it was somethingrelated to music.
So she had a passion for music,but also started a cleaning
business because she said it, ithelped her decompress, relieve
(30:12):
stress, things like that.
The way we look at work, whenwe think of work, we think
it has to be something sobright and shiny and amazing.
But it doesn't have to be atthat level to be enjoyable,
to be something you evenare passionate about.
So I would definitelyjust strip away all of the
outside noise and reflect on,What is it that you enjoy?
(30:34):
Even if it's something that youwould consider menial things.
A lot of times people's hobbiesor just mundane things that they
find pleasure in are ways thatthey can develop a career that
are often overlooked becauseeverybody's gunning for the
corner office or somethingbig and bright, you know?
And there's nothing wrongwith either, but I'm just
(30:55):
saying that people should bemore reflective on looking at
what it is that they enjoy.
Jesse Butts (31:00):
How big of a role should work play in life?
I mean, should it bestrictly nine to five?
Is there something wrongwhen people love their work
and want to spend, I don'tknow, 60 hours a week at it?
How do you tend to adviseyour, your clients or
readers in this respect?
Zakiya (31:17):
Whatever works for them.
I come from a family...
like my grandfather,he was working all the
way into his eighties.
And we had to stop him.
Right.
He would've still beenworking if we didn't say,
Hey, you need to sit out.
There are people like that,that just find passion
and drive in their work.
And that's what motivates them.
They can't sit down.
(31:37):
And then there are otherslike myself who are maybe
more on the opposite end.
Like I wanna do aslittle work as possible.
I prefer to spend timewith having experiences,
whether it's throughtraveling with my family.
And then also there are peoplethat are probably in the middle.
It just...
what works for you, but alsowhat works for those that
(31:57):
you were responsible for.
Because I know that thereare some people that are so
focused on work that theyneglect not only themselves,
but their families.
That's not a good thing, right?
So if people around youwho you care about and
love are not happy with howyou're working, you might
wanna shift some things.
But if you're at a point inyour life where you're the only
person that matters, you know,you only have yourself to be
(32:17):
responsible for, and you enjoyworking 60 hours a week, fine.
Make sure that you're takingcare of yourself though.
I don't recommend peoplefocusing on work just as, I
have to do this to survive.
I really recommend people lookfor things that they enjoy,
that they find pleasure in.
Or if they can't find work inthat, or if the work doesn't
(32:39):
give them that feeling that theyfind a way to do that work, the
least amount of time possible.
So if you're working, ifthere's a way for you to
work for yourself, onlya few hours a week, fine.
If that is a fewhours a day, fine.
But make sure you havetime to enjoy life.
Not just make workthe focus of it.
Jesse Butts (32:59):
So beyond your book, Dump Your
Degree, are there any otherresources that you would
recommend for our listeners?
Zakiya Akerele (33:05):
Yes, I would recommend if you're in the
process of transitioningyour career, there are
career transition coaches andprograms that help people who
are looking to transition.
Cause sometimes you needsomebody to guide you along
that transition journey.
I offer services primarily ingroup settings in that way, but
there are also other avenuesto approach that as well.
(33:28):
Just doing a little researchonline and typing in career
transition consulting orcareer transition coaching.
Jesse Butts (33:34):
Where can people find your book
and more about you?
Zakiya Akerele (33:37):
Yes.
My book is available onAmazon, Barnes and Noble,
Walmart, many online retailers.
Or you can go toZakiyaAkerele.com and my
book is available throughmy website as well.
And that's whereyou can find me.
I'm also on Facebook, TikTok,and Instagram @ZakiyaAkerele.
Jesse Butts (33:55):
All right.
And I'll be sure to includeall that in the show notes.
Well, Zakiya thank youagain for joining us.
This was a wonderfulconversation.
Zakiya Akerele (34:02):
Thank you for having me.
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